Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

All right. Yep. Charlie's gonna try to zoom. All right. It is 6 pm. I call the planning commission special meeting to order. It is Thursday, January 29th, 2026. on the animal. Rooff Demer here. Freed here. Meridian here. Moss here. Newman here. Robson

and we also have Ted with us because he's on the zoning committee. Um, all right. Public comment. This is an opportunity for public comment on items not on the muting agenda. Members of the public may address planning commission regarding any subject of community interest during the public comment period. Public comments are limited to three minutes per individual. Comments during other portions of the agenda may or may not be entertained at the chair person's discretion. Did the public want to make comment?

All right. Moving on to uh our business tonight. the zoning ordinance regard going to discuss the current zoning districts. We've been provided with maps uh descriptions of the different zoning districts and I'll let you take it away.

Okay. I guess it's a tonight's a work session open discussion. I thought maybe it'd be best we start out with the business districts first. Uh I have provided in advance of the meeting an analysis of each of the seven business districts that we have and the uses that are allowed in each of the business districts and the ones that are also allowed as a special use under a special use permit. And I tried to highlight the ones that appear in multiple districts. So you can see how some of these districts kind of they're like a pyramid, you know, starting out with B1 and then you carry it over to B2, some of the B2A uses are in the B2B uses, so on and so forth. the I guess the decision for the planning commission is if you want to maintain the existing districts in the revised code that's fine uh if you think there's an opportunity to consolidate some of the districts that's fine and then I also provided this evening each of you a copy of the city's future land use map and the zoning plan that was in the uh future land use document because in the future land use plan which is different than the the zoning map and the future land use map which is uh this one right here. Okay, there's only three general categories for commercial. There's mixed use, neighborhood mixeduse, corridor

mixed use, and urban core mixed use. The urban core is primarily the central business district. The corridors are uh what we would think of as our main corridors uh US 131 uh 31 and then you have your neighborhood mixeduse district which is kind of fragmented throughout the city and actually includes areas that are zoned currently B1, B2A, B2B, OS and industrial. So, future land use map had rather broad general locations for commercial by lo by type and the zoning ordinance has seven specific zoning districts. So, you know, we're at that point in the revised code where we need to create uh the come up with the zoning districts and the land uses. So before we get start on that process, I just want to make sure that we're comfortable with what we have or if there's an opportunity to consolidate or even if we need to create a new district in order to help advance the future land use map. So it's kind of a wide openen discussion tonight.

John, I have a question. Um, you weren't here for the future land use map. This was the previous Yes. Right. And I think I was in plain position at the time. You were. You're you're listed in the acknowledgements. Cynthia, um maybe your recollection that was kind of a difficult discussion exactly maybe being there wasn't exactly clear. So I just wanted you to know we discussed it to some degree but it wasn't it was very confusing. We weren't it wasn't a robust discussion about okay a direction. It was kind of I'm not sure but it's maybe simply

but but in thinking about you know these two maps that are in front of us now future land use and the zoning it seems like they they should coincide more directly than they do now. It's my opinion that this voting district should reflect the future land use map better than it does now. I just thought this was done in 2020. Wasn't 25 probably. Yeah. And I just I don't recall a Oh, it was 2020. Like an extreme robust discussion about like

um like I I don't know if I even heard the term consolidation of districts so much talked about at the time, right? But clearly if you look at this, it seems to suggest that. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. descent, right? It's interesting.

So, were there recommendations at that time by the planning commission if this was spoiler to the city council? What action I mean this it says it's off to the city planner, but do the minutes or whatever of the planning commission and city council meetings of that times that you had a discussion. What was it actually action taken? Well, I think it was if it was adopted maybe as part of the what what what community plan were we working on at the time? You well, this comes out of the livable master plan. That's what I want to make sure. Yeah. And and that was adopted both it was adopted by city council recommended for adoption by the planning commission.

Right. I think if anything I would say that this map shows that the areas that are same color are more alike or different and it may encompass some and then probably leads to this discussion.

Well, you know, if you think about the if you go back to this map that was provided to us more recently the commercials only. You can think about, you know, the difference between B3 general business equipment zone versus, you know, the B3B resort commercial. You know, are they really any different in drive drive those zones?

Well, the Rick, I want to point out I noticed it on the on the map. We're talking about the V2B uh is commercial industrial. as it has no business industry. It's it's not there's not a second resort. It's business industrial. So B3B B3B. Yeah.

It appears that the B3 one of them has a more stringent um height limitation. Is that familiar? Yeah, this B3A if you go back um in and to to when the B3A was like in the late 80s, it was in response largely to first the um apple tree which um brought brought significant view into the the bay. Um and it and and so that's when they started looking at the PV rescue that we talked about last time. That's why the hotel that was his name. There was a lot of concern about the view. Um that is for me I'll use Ted's terms Charlie's feature term that he talked about in a lot of our that's what I'm with the help for is keeping P3A um such that you can see the you can see the view. Um I've heard people say and and they're titled to their opinion well the hospital blocks the view right. Yeah it does. That's not good either. And so if you're looking at, you know, areas of doctor, if it was important to citizens at the time, the planning commission meetings that you had with most people had we were talking about B3A, you had citizens comment. And so now I agree there's a lot of similar use and maybe this is where we talk about one of those overlay zones that hey, it's exactly the same as all the other E3s or whatever. They have very severe use except in this area because of the special uh the the concern of view and vidowski. And if you look at all of our plans in the past, I can pull out a whole bunch of other documents that says

we can we can look at the view. And so for me, uh, keeping that what is the, excuse me, southwest corner, south, yeah, southwest corner of Sheridan and, um, street and then bring street from Sheridan to Porter. Um, keeping that the pool screen boxes at the 25 foot level be very important. I I don't know what other commission is saying, but

well, well, to me, that's where where the term community sentence comes in like voice. I mean, in addition to just thinking about colors on a map, we've got to take into consideration what is the character of these neighborhood areas and you coming down the hill that's a big element from the character of that of that zone because to me distinguish it as being different from US 31 all the way through our community and and obviously I'm I'm in that neighborhood and beneial from that and John at the same time. Yes,

everybody who comes to the hospital benefits from that view of them. I my belief is our downtown businesses benefit from that view. We travel a lot. We take six weeks to eight weeks a year that we travel. And when you come up to a community like Tasky and you see something like that, you are want to go down into that area to see it. If you don't see the view, you you may or may not decide, hey, I need to turn off here and go down to the parks and see some of the other things. So, um, so John, if I'm correct, you know, coming into town on 131 and 31, those two meeting and then going up to the river or sorry, yeah, the river, the bridge there. Um, everything is some version of a a B3 with a twotory head except for that little pink section near the hospital there. Well, West Mitchell is is distinctly different just because of the setbacks and and you know, maybe the uses aren't that much different. They're all generally commercial users, but

the setback and just the character of the streetscape makes a big difference there. So, I'm talking about the height issue we just talked about though. And it basically right now um Albert on this map it looks like it's it is currently all two stories but with different um V3 designations which is not going to affect height it's going to affect uses and I think setbacks Rick as you said between the purples and the light greens and dark greens general business is 30 The height is 38.

Yeah. B1 side B3 B. Um B3A and B1. B3 general is two stories from 30, right? The rest of them are all the B3s are two stories 25 to 30. I feel like we talk about B1 first. I don't understand why we done V1 like that. Oh yeah. Why isn't that one just three?

Well, wouldn't that be West Mitchell, you know, and the local business? If you look back to the future land use map where they're designated West Mitchell, you know, but of the Em Street corridor going no longer just the greenway corridor. Yeah. I mean, as being the local business, I mean, with the uses that are in that B1 district over by Mitchell and Connibal, that's an ear an audio place, I think, and then Fifth Third Bank. That That's it. I mean, you could typically find those dentist

and a Yeah, but there there's a you could typically find those in quarter commercial areas. I It's kind of like an odd duck just why that's a B1 right out there. And then there's two other B ones that are tiny little spots. Oh. All by themselves. Yeah. Let me see. One's way over here. Oh, and the ones on Liberty and Jackson

right there. and and we were talking about allowing um in some of the residential areas doing a throwback and allowing you know like corner brochures and some things like that that are appropriate for a neighborhood have been traditional in the past but there are ways to limit you don't want to every block and you don't want to tear down a house to get one in but there are ways of writing the ordinance so that they're not we should have them to be maintained, right? Yes.

Well, just for discussion as I'm looking at this map and um everything um west of the river, these B3 zones, is there any I mean, if you took that section, is there anything you do to combine that or not? John, what do you think? You're talking west of the river. Yeah, the the West Mitchell Street area. Yes. So, the purple Well, once you get to the the purples and and the greens and the greens, how different are they? How similar are they?

The height is pretty similar. The height is the height is the height is pretty similar to it. So it's I think the west would be something because of the character of the streetscape there. Businesses that are sort of in there are different than the sort of the auto oriented most of the far 31 and 131. So you're talking purple between Madison on the bridge probably. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And how's that different than the purple between the white boy intersection and the hospital?

Well, the character eastcape is very different. Once you get up by 31 and 131, you've got generally bigger parcels and drive-in parking lots and that sort of thing. Those to are more set back from the highway frontage as opposed to those three or four blocks just west of the river. And this is the area along Mitchell between say Madison and and the um river um in that area that's prime for redevelopment right now. I mean a lot of the buildings in there little when I was a kid was pharmacy not when the hospital building recently became um the insurance company old bus station and vacuum shop seemed like a lot of those buildings would be that would be there that would be prime for redevelopment because they're getting older and I know one of those houses right in there on the south side is is going to be developed as a contractor's business.

So, John, this this dark green 131 coming into town compared to the purple seems pretty similar in height, pretty similar in setbacks, but of course, the uses would be somewhat different. I was asking regard to that. I was going to ask John B3D is business industrial, do we really have any industrial on that? Is that an appropriate way?

Used to have the county road commission. That building is still there, but it's actually is it owned by the hospital? It's No, I think it's actually I think the only thing over there is it's basically you got the car dealership and then you had the old EMTT County Road Commission building you got you got Wendy's. So I mean you don't there's really no industrial that makes sense. I think it's kind of the word industrial district. Wilson says Wilson nursery. It's a nursery. Yeah.

It's nursery could also be considered as retail with outdoor display commercial. Yeah. So I mean yeah the business industrial is kind of a you would almost think that you're going to see some industrial uses. There's nothing there. No. the fairgrounds cemeter districts. But if you don't have that district, I mean, aren't we not permitting any industrial use at all? Well, do you want an industrial use? I wouldn't recommend any industrial uses on that section of 31. Well, we have other industrial districts though. Yeah, we have. But I wonder our industrial district is by the river. Yeah.

And I would love to see that go to residential. Well, that's in your future land use and know in your not on your future land use map but in the livable cities livable master plan that area along the river is called mixeduse residential. They have it as redevelopment areas. So they have there was discussion about the conversion of some of those older industrial properties to residential not to industrial. Yeah. So growth in the future land use plan doesn't look like there's any what's that

there doesn't look like there's any plan for industry so to speak and what we would consider industrial uses in the future lands there's not yeah because historically the bear river corridor was was the industrial area of the city and I don't think that's quite bad but legally we could say no more industrial industrial can be built in EMT County. Yeah. And and that covers us for not being liable for question. John, you know, don't you have to allow for all uses? Yeah. Yeah. But but you're still going to have there is still some industrial areas down by uh where Howard comes in by a Clarion and that area down in there, right?

Uh okay. So, but you know, in the in the future land use map, that area is colorcoded neighborhood mixed use. And when you read the description in the plan, it's for a combination of residential, single family, multiple family, uh some limited commercial, kind of a mix of what's there now. Kind of like what you've got going on with the lofts and then right next across from it is the Elder Piper, you know, and there's kind of and then, you know, over in a half a block away, you got the uh you got the party store

right right next to residential area. So that's was the concept in the uh future in in the master plan was to kind of continue that that collection of uses along that particular corridor. And it looks like to me the areas that are industrial stills that luckily Spanish pass and then most of Clarion could industrial on other side but just the way that that land is used on that on other side rivers also be nice for residential redevelopment. you know the other part that you know one thing I looked at was you know the difference like for example in your three B3 versus B3A really the only additional the the uses that are permitted in the B3A are uses permitted in the M2 district and motel and motel but then you have to ask yourself at least the question I asked is if you're going to limit the height to two stories and 25 ft. You're really not going to have a hotel.

Okay. I mean, it's that's part of that's part of you mean it's got hotels. Yeah. I even in the you know as long as it's not block even in the P we talked about last time as long as it's back off the road they could put a hotel on the south east part where Kmart market is it would not block the view but that's P that's P and I think is a hotel already allowed in that it was previously approved John were you just talking sorry about D3A A is that what you're talking about? Yeah, the B3A the permitted uses are uses in the RM2

and then hotels and motel. So, but the limit is twotory and in today's world you never see a hotel at two stories. They're always three or four. So, compared to the B3 and the B3B as I looked at this the bigger way bigger setbacks it looks like on the B3A. A 50 yard front and a 40 yard back and Yeah. And they did that specifically for the view. Yeah. And again, could I know that won't be a use, but we have other places you can put hotels besides there besides that use. And um

could you if if you wanted to have all the if you wanted to have a district that allowed some of the other business uses along there um having an overlay that said they're less than 25 ft that allow some of these other I mean there's a bank there now. there is there's a accounting business there now. Um you know um so but but keeping it under 45 ft that was that was a huge issue and as long as we keep if if a hotel can't be built on that side of the road so what what is what it's about um you know so John that 131 cor could those my map I've got it star green on the East side of the highway coming in. How could they be purple? Could they just be B3? And that's in the uses we're missing.

Well, presently B3 doesn't allow mot. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. What? I don't think so. Well, the thing is, you know, I forget what you call it, but it's like nesting where what's in B1 is okay in E2 more. Yeah. Is okay E2A plus some more. So it just keeps stacking. Yeah.

And I don't think we want to do that. Yeah. You get you get a good example between B2A and B2B. They you can start I mean bakeries, banks, brew pubs, daycare, food services. I mean there Yeah, they kind of shift over into the same district. Many of them do.

Multiple family and single family get taken all the way through. Um I think you can have RM one is allowed as you get into the deeper. So in industrial you could put a single family home in our industrial thing. That's certainly well I suppose if we want to change it over. Yeah. 35. So, should we be looking at B1, B3, B3A, B3B and going through and seeing what we wouldn't want to be allowed in those if we made them all one? What's the best way to get these out? Yeah.

Then we can talk about it for hours. What's the best approach? Well, seems to me that three commercial districts would be the way to go. We've got our central business district. We've got neighborhood business and then we've got more corridors or general builds, right? Those those would be the logical three categories and and maybe the fourth one being, you know, the the the resort commercial long. Maybe there's a fourth one that's specialist. What is that? view corridor overlay or yeah like that maybe yeah I think the distinguished

so this zoning districts you talk about walkable neighborhoods suburban neighborhoods and flex neighborhoods and then b business and industrial and the new zoning ordinance those were some of the proposed when we started out right but that would be I I think this would be more for resil yeah in in the uh business so This is an industrial. Yeah.

I mean, I was going to kind of go where Rick was going. Typically, when you start out with looking at business districts, you start out in broad groups like downtown, corridor, neighborhood. And then you know if you want to add specialty areas you do that or you add overlays uh to allow an overlay can all you know not only limit manage dimensional requirements but also manage uses here seems like it's gets complicated.

Yeah. Like office service seems like it would be combined with um a lot of the business as well. When you look at downtown, there's the church. I don't think we have hardly any office service as a district. So is everybody in agreement in uh doing the harder mix use the downtown these and what was the other one?

Neighborhood neighborhood commercial like focus on those three categories and see neighborhood mix please. I'm okay with that as long as we have opportunity to do overlays or something and not only in our area maybe maybe if you have a residential district that is a food desert you put an overlay in there that says in this area you will allow you know a corner brochure kind of thing you know you the thing that you can't walk what within a mile you can't find a 7-Eleven in the food desert, you know. So,

yeah, Cynthia, I like that idea. I think then, yeah, we I mean, John would have to, you know, then we'd drop like a sample thing and then then the job would be to start to see, well, what doesn't fit? What's the problem? Yeah. And then then you could have a good discussion. Well, you know the if if uh let me just I kind of I kind of think differently in graphics. Let's have a if you did this. Let me see here.

Why did that still uh If if you take a look at a a table that's got on one axis has walkability on the other axis has vehicular traffic then what commercial area would be in an area that's more walkable less vehicular a downtown. So then you have then you start allocating the uses that are more pedestrianoriented into that district. Then as you get more vehicular then you may be into an area that's corridor which is very that's where you have your drive-throughs, your banks, your ATMs, that kind of stuff. And then in the middle somewhere is where you kind of plug in maybe your neighborhood. But if you think about it in terms of pedestrian access versus vehicular access, then you can start allocating when you go through these charts with all these land uses, you can pick a lane use and say what land use is really dependent on foot traffic and what land use is dependent on vehicular traffic. See what I mean? So, John, in your experience, um you could we could do this exercise and have a would be a lot of sense for a way to develop a town and lay out a town, but then you're going to have some non-conforming I assume.

Yes. And then how how much of a flash point is that considering I mean obviously they can continue as is. Yes. But when people just say I love this, you guys just disallowed this thing that I love. Of course, it can stay there, but they get emotional or unhappy because they say it's fine here. Is that a problem? Like if we do this exercise? Yeah, we can. Can you uh can you access Google? I'll show show an example. Problem is that do you want um if you go Google images, you can't sell that business. It's hard to make changes. Yeah. Google images

or if they thought they were going to sell their business. Okay. And then type in when when you get there. Well, I think people still sell it as long as you change. Okay. Type in Jefferson Street Market and Arbor, Michigan.

I would think so. Yeah. Right there. Show that right there. Yeah. Okay. Here's here's an example. This is Cool. Where'd it go? Oh, you're good question. You're getting too fast. I'm kidding. No, I was trying to open it up so you could get a full view of the building. Uh,

this this is this is a this was a market that is in a neighborhood in the old west end of Ann Arbor. Across the street was an element is an elementary school. And then a block down was the old camera Argus camera factory which is now offices of uh U of M and our corporate offices there. This building sat vacant for like 20 or 30 years because it was classified non-conforming. Eventually the city updated its code to allow for different classes of nonconformity. and the property owner, somebody bought the building, went to the city and said, "I'd like to reopen it as a small bakery and a local food food place for the neighborhood." So, they sell coffee sandwiches. The kids go in there and get an ice cream after school. But, it reactivated that building and did a heck of a lot for that neighborhood. But under a lot of our current ordinances, this is not allowed. Uh but this is a great example of if your ordinance is you know if if you allowed a non-conforming use to to remain in and and and continue you have those type of uses like you have the uh the corner scoops down in Kamazoo you know which is kind of a local thing for everybody. Uh, but we also have some of these same buildings that I showed you over on this side of town around Madison and Engles and Jackson back in here that sat vacant for years and now they some of them been converted into housing which kind of looks funky.

But I know that some of those buildings probably could have been reactivated for some small commercial use activities, an art gallery, for example, or small bakery allowed. No, because they're zoned residential. They're non-conforming. I think one time, Lisa, didn't we have somebody that wanted to do a catering business? They wanted to buy one of the buildings and put put their catering business in there, but or we the ordinance wasn't wouldn't allow it. John, so if generally if something's nonconforming, it continues. If it's sold, could someone buy it and continue the same business? Yeah.

Just you can't spin it, change it. you well under the I think in the new ordinance that we have I think we have a classification where you can expand a non-conforming use as long as it doesn't uh increase well as long as it doesn't impact the uh the other dimensional requirements of the district. Okay. So, you can expand a non-conforming use to make the lot larger than what the normal district would be or expand it into the setbacks. Uh, because sometimes you have a non-conforming use, right? But but dimensionally it's fine. Okay.

Okay. See what I mean? There's differences. So, we're looking at downtown corridor neighborhood plus an overlay, which would be more like a viewshed overlay, but we're going to have to figure out how to how to work how to work that puppy through, you know.

So, I like that idea idea, John. How would we go about this then? Would you I mean, would he be here tonight? Would you how would we draw these sample areas? Well, I could take a whack at it with the maps. So, I mean, we all like the maps with the colors. So, I mean, that's the first thing is do you like where the districts are at? And then I could take a I can take a I can make an attempt at putting land uses in the various buckets and then you guys can look at them and say, "Do these these do these work?" Yeah. Okay. I think it'd be a lot easier to respond to something like that. Yeah.

But I just needed to get some direction from you folks on where you wanted to go. Well, I think if you actually have it right here on the future land use, it may be pretty close. It may be close. Again, I didn't I think that gets back to what Rick is saying is if we have a chance, let's try to make the zoning mirror up a little bit with the future land use map. I know. Are we going to talk residential tonight or Oh, yeah. I mean, commercial. Well, I mean, seems like you guys have kind of given me some direction on the commercial, which I thought was going to take two hours. So, I guess we can talk residential if you want. I don't have a lot prepared, but Well, hold on. Does anybody have any more comments about business?

Okay. I would Okay, yeah, I think we want to get back to business. the possibility of combining B2A, B2C. Those are so similar. That' be one possibility. I don't know.

Yeah. I like John's example of plotting out what uses go where. So, if it's down toward downtown core, what uses we want to have it put there because it's walkable versus corridor versus drive-thru. and then that'll give us the information we need that how we fill those things in. I think my biggest hesitancy was you know what I think we started doing creating some things noticed conforming yes you know how how that would be perceived but maybe maybe it's not such a problem may not be depending on how you set the districts up with the intent

because I think the issue or not the issue where the future land use plan was their master plan was going each of these districts are actually referred to as a mixeduse district which kind of reflects that it's not going to be a just all commercial. It's going to be a combination of commercial and residential and office,

you know, and there's different degrees and probably different densities associated with it. So, do you think, John, a more modern trend or I just see a lot of circumstances where someone's got a business, sometimes they just retire and close, but sometimes they do try and sell it for a while. And there's been a seems to me like a lot of examples around town where they just never can sell it and they go away. It's like I don't see these things. Maybe in the old days they did. You're talking about in residential districts? No businesses in a regular business district, right? So you may have I've seen several examples around time where someone wanted to sell the restaurant, the thing, the whatever and it just didn't the clothing store maybe

then they just close. They just close. It happens, I guess. I mean, look at where the Jimmy John's is going. That was a gas station and it, you know, even though it was on one of the primary corners, it closed, right? I'm just kind of making the point that just because something's a use now, it's not going to be that and there's a strong chance forever. No, in today's world, I would say you're right. So John, as you do those potential districts, will you have something similar to this at the same time that gives us an idea of a dimensional plan? Well, I'm not going to vary too much from what we got. Okay. All right. Good. Is that that's where you start creating a lot of nonconformities,

right? So I want to want to make sure that we don't do that. As we look at other dash, I want to look at how much of the city is already non-conforming. Do we have you know

the neighborhood I grew up in BS were built in 1900 there on 38 30 some of them were 34 foot lots and they I mean so as we look at residential so we look at kind of almost the same thing and they don't want to use the word old because they also don't want to use the word historic because they don't want to limit somebody's facade because of historic but the historic working man's neighborhood that we have we have a lot of them were small lots, you know, and now if somebody wants to put a task garage in their house, which you really need in Michigan, you get all kinds of problems with the 35%. Well, I mean, that's that's something Alsary

that's some communities now are increasing the amount of lot coverage. Yeah. I'm you know, at the same time that that jumps up. I I can't tell you where. No one's ever been able to show me where that magic number of 30% lot coverage ever came from that everybody seems to use. 30 or 35% of like I said I looked at where I grew up on Harvey Street 14 houses 13 of the 14 are non-conforming as far as square feet. Yeah,

you have to be 6,000 square feet. They're all under 6,000 per one. And of 14 houses just this one block. And if you walk and drive up Harbor Street, that's a fairly fairly common layout of a block in the old town. I don't know what you want to call everything from, you know, from from EMTT to Goo South. Well, I guess the qu I mean, we done talking business districts. We talking residential now. No, that's crazy. I mean, anyway, I'm sorry. We got more business discussions. You you still got some discussions on No, I I just brought up about the A and B combining. Yeah, I think we'll be looking at that then.

Yeah, with the new the new versions. Yes. Okay. But my point is is should be when you had this new character, this why I have something you had this new character. I didn't a typical professor saying I don't go too far into the rabbit. But um I looked at what our coverages were and what are how many square feet ox in those neighborhoods that we look for and you know if there are two there's a whole lot of task that doesn't have 6,000 square foot lot there's a whole lot so should we be looking at the whole thing yes we should I agree I you know

well again when we get to residential John this idea you talked about of you know what's the front yard set back. It's an average. A lot of these things that the blocks were were different and to keep the feel and the conformity to some extent. That's what I think, John. Are these R1, R2, R3s? Is it solved? Is it one residential district? If a lot of your um setbacks are maybe heights are are what's Yeah.

What's in that area? I mean, I mean, we're if we're talking residential conceptually, uh, I'm not a big proponent of any lot size. Okay? And the reason being is my own experience. First house I bought when I was in college was the lot was 24 ft wide, but it had a two-bedroom, one bath, kitchen, living room, full basement in, but it was 24 ft wide, 150 ft deep. you had to park out on the street. Great house, you know. So, to me, it's it's not about the size of the lot. It's about meeting some of the minimum dimensions in order for basically

to mirror with the with the neighborhood and to make sure that you're you have sufficient setbacks for fire safety. So, who cares if it's a 40ft lot and they have they meet the sideyard setbacks and they meet the front yard average. Okay. And then there would be their their decision if they want to put if they can fit a driveway or a put a garage in the back. But then you have to take a look at the the the the lot coverage. Do we all need to have 30% lot coverage? I mean, is that is that the golden rule or can we tell people they can have up to 50% especially if they're looking at the primary building plus a garage and if they want to have an accessory dwelling unit? I mean, I I these are the

Yeah. some of the the the key aspects of don't focus on lot size, focus on some of the dimensional requirements and then let the let the lot size be organic depending on the neighborhood. I mean Lisa and I had a case before the ZBA over on Madison Street when those those houses were platted. They were platted with two houses. There was one in the front and one in the back and they were owned by the same property owner. Uh, and then we went to the the property owner that had eventually bought a lot of them came to the ZBA and said, "Hey, I've got people that are renting that would like to buy it, but they can't afford to buy theirs and the other house, so can we split them?" And the ZBA said, "Yeah." So, the zoning board of appeals created these extra small little lots accessibility off of an alley that the property owner then sold to the people that were renting because they could afford to land contracts on. Does it really does it did it did it impact the neighboring character? No, because that was part of the character back in 1905.

But it may, you know, I'm I'm also concerned about home ownership, you know, at least it made home owners and I think home owners have more in the long term. And that's that's that's one of my concerns that we start looking at when we start looking at quads and fries against the neighbor because they have they we also have to have home ownership. You know in my little Harvey Street thing my next door neighbor was per city two blocks up was a nurse across the street was a guy that work for Bell Telephone you know um these were just working class working we don't those we've

our property values have brought up so high and and things to preserve small neighborhoods and small that's one of the things that's in the um housing plan from from the um Northern Michigan housing right so in Titaski being built out right future development is just another word for tear downs right there's already stuff there so I like the idea that the neighborhood the look and feel stays stays the same. I don't really care like you we'd see examples of um historically done duplexes, triplexes, maybe even quadlexes that looked like a a house

where the character in dimensions and that doesn't bother me so much. What bothered me is drastically altering the the lot in some way that in no way fits in with everything else. Um I think people live in a neighborhood and they kind of expect they don't know what the zoning rules are. No, it's all built out. They kind of expect it's kind of going to be like this and then someone rips something down and something totally if something totally different gets done it can be disturbed.

But I think the the results of the community character survey that we did a few months ago when we did the open response survey is people they want to maintain the characters of their neighborhood. Okay. And they use terms like gentle density or they didn't have an issue with increasing density but not radically.

Right. But the big thing was they wanted they wanted to maintain the character of their neighborhood in terms of what their front yards look like in terms of how their their backyards look, things along those lines, the the the you know the style of the housing. So I kind of agree with you, Ted. It's it's not people aren't necessarily focused on dimensional requirements as they are about kind of the their impression about the character of the neighborhood that they live in. Yeah. I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second. Sure. So,

while I appreciate the character of my neighborhood, um, and particularly the house I own on Michigan Street, uh, hitting corner to, uh, both Carolyn and myself is a quad plots and they don't have ample parking and there are multiple garbage cans that remain in the, uh, easement throughout the week. Um, so I'm not sure which she was talking. Would would this be kind of party and would it be what was the house originally? Was it a single family or was it a boarding house? Was it? Yeah. Okay. So, um I I wouldn't want that house to be rebuilt. I mean, it doesn't.

It's chaos. There are people constantly walking to their vehicles. Um they could be hit going down the hill. You can't stop. Um, I don't my house there on Michigan Street sits 2 foot two inches from the lot line and I it's horrible to do any sort of work on it because my neighbor maintains his yard meticulously and I want to respect that. So, I think, you know, the sideyard setbacks are appropriate. I think that they're um you know, they're they're good. I think our lot coverage is also um great. I when I look at like the city of Birmingham, which had big foot homes, they'd buy multiple to create something larger.

Um but also the ADU exception would be fantastic and provide additional housing, but do I think 50% would be appropriate? No. maybe over 42% I think what is it 33 if you had a lot that's 7200 square foot and under right now and then or up 7200 or above if it's under 7200 it's 35 that's in the R2 and you can build a pretty large hull on the smallest lots we need to have some sort of green space in between our houses

somewhat detailing that I agree I always I grew up in Grand Rapids not not an older neighborhood and frequently back there for different reasons and I was just back there again. Here's these beautiful old neighborhoods from the probably 20s and 30s with these houses that are really were nicer than a lot of Pitas general stock. These are considered general just old. They weren't like mansions or anything. They were built at the time so tight because no one had cars. Everyone walked to the factories and it just totally worked. You go there now, it's not people who have much money. They're not kept up that well. You can't live there. The the snow piles, the no parking, it's the whole thing is like that's a cool house, but it's it's too tight. It doesn't work for modern people who have a vehicle. God forbid, too. You know, it's it's like a disaster.

And I love the street parking, by the way. That's here. And I think, you know, that's appropriate. But uh should the entire curb be filled with our residents? Probably not. So I would agree with the point that you think no rules. I had similar experience with fire. So our our neighborhood was pretty much a single family neighborhood. They allowed uh duplex and tripods. We had tripods across the gate on a call center. They had tripods the people of the turned over all the time. It was not bo and you know it was the cars the traffic it was so which had five houses those are things I you know worry about when we start taking your if you if your neighborhood now has no bus or buses in it and all of a sudden that changes you're going to have issues with that too. I understand housing density. I understand that we need housing. But right now, how full are the loss of a big billing? We know. How full is um how full is Maple Bot until those come along? you know, if we're going to look at triplex and hot boxes, I think, you know, at at the most or the the least restricted would be to make a special view. So, neighborhood the neighbors are within 300 ft of that property and say that's something we want here something.

So, that's just so you know, that's my experience have been correct is exactly what does not happen. We had the special using use meetings for a duplex and everyone came and the first thing we had to say is all you people there we just got to let you know we have to approve this tonight to make that conditions. Well, why didn't we get notified was a special condition used by so it didn't matter if they met the criteria it was a duplex. So we had 20 people come and we're all really mad and we said forget it. That's comfortable.

Yeah. But if and and you know if you look at right now and fivelexes anything above a duplex is pretty much only in our RMS and as we did our walk around you could see where those houses were. You know I could point out the houses that we saw on State Street as we walked up you knew exactly had multiple mailboxes and they surely didn't affect the house at all. Um if you you know the RM housing um on Jackson and and Engles would soon as you start putting quadplexes and triplexes in my mind in what has been historically residential neighborhood, you're making them RM. Um, I would rather see us not do that at all until we've now if if all of a sudden lost that number are completely full April box full and we're still don't have places to for people to live. The plan commissioner can look at that again. You could you could look at the whether you want to allow those again as a a use and

but overriding that all is we're supposed to do what the kind of people in want. It's not just right we decide to change the neighborhood.

Right. Right. Yeah. Because if they should come from the people and I'm wondering what the people in capacity want flexes and triplexes on the other hand I'll be the devil's ad on that a little bit too. I mean how did it come to be that all the multifamily was dumped on the west side of the river? Well, probably because they were smaller working man's houses. And so when when the zoning map was laid out, well, where are we going to stick all this RN1 and RN2? Well, we sure don't want it on the east side. Let's dump it on the west side. And I don't think that's exactly clear either. I know I I believe that the west side neighborhood, you know, deserves to be treated like the east side neighborhood. When you look at the future land use map, you know, it's all yellow. Well, when you look on the don district map, there's a big disparity between the east side and the west sides. And I believe our west side neighborhood should be should be better treated. Shouldn't be seen as I'll call it. Now, this is the job. I say it should for them.

I think if we're going to allow deflex, we do right. I know we do, but if we decide that that's something we want in neighborhoods, then I think we should uh go the route of it has to be you can pick from these styles that fit into Pasi and if a D quadlex you require that that lot can uh provide the parking um so that the architecture fits with the you know and

but we're not just talking about building new if you allow someone they convert That's what I'm thinking. I I know, you know, you look at some of the houses that are now on large houses that are now on Michigan Street. Large houses that are on Blackwood block from Harvey. There's a couple huge houses there that could be converted into quad flexes and I don't know if the neighbors in that neighborhood want that or not. that certainly we want to hear about. Um but that I think that's but I think part of enabling that is ensuring that it doesn't um distract from the rest of the neighborhood. So that means

allowing parking making sure the setbacks are proper maybe some form based uh guidelines at their original house. Yeah. So it'll look like a different house. Right. So John, my question again, how how different are R1, R2, and R3 if the code was much more um based on the the the neighborhood? Well, R1, your R1 district is primarily the the areas that are up there by Winter Park Lane and up there where Rick lives up there in the Hill area.

And those are larger lots. They have a little bit they have a definitely a different character than what you have in the the east the east side neighborhoods along you know state Mitchell Lockwood those areas. But if your code if your code is allowing for that setbacks and all kinds of parameters are based on that averaging of the of the block if you will or the surround then you have more commonality because you don't have to worry about Yeah. Currently R1 and R2 fall under the same um district. I mean they're basically the same district, right? So

I said that the differences as far as what's Yeah. Yeah. I ran into a whole trying to help people build garages. you know, in the east side neighborhood, it's pretty hard to build a garage in the R1 district or I mean, sorry, the R2 district, um, when you have an old house that doesn't have a garage and you got to have a 10 foot and a 5ft set back. Yeah. Your your R1, two, and three are pretty two and three are really, really close, right? You know, in terms of what their character is. One's got a little bit different character because to me it's a little bit

it's got a little bit more of a 1960s7s suburban flare to it over by Jennings. Yeah. Right. Those are much larger lots. Not all streets are very small but the other. So, I have a comment about uh like you know Winter Park over by the Winter Park that's R1 South River Road that's also R1 and it's kind of misleading on this map because it is owned by the city of Aaski, right? So,

yeah. Well, that was one of the things I was going to discuss with you. Some of the communities are they're they're classifying any public property as community. So all the parks, city property, county property, cemetery, if it's nonprofit, those all get grouped into like a like a public classification. So you can see, you know, where all the open spaces, public facilities are the new you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the communities classify it that way. the college and like the schools. Why aren't those always institutional? I don't know. The college here has its own zoning district,

right? Uh which is on which is on the uh it's not on this map, is it? Yeah, it's the blue the blue. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, this light blue. It's kind of a weird Yeah, sky blue. That's college and then you got zoning district for the hospital. It wouldn't make a difference in my eyes if like the hospital and the college switched places either. You know what I mean? Like in the sense of traffic and uh volume, they're kind of similar. I just when I was looking at the map at Luna 2, I understand why they were zoned differently um or light.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the college is in a strong um residential area. So it it it mattered the setbacks matter more than it does at the hospital area. Okay. The hospital is the only place where the height is altitude above sea level altitude above sea level. 25 ft is not right.

The first time I saw it said 9. tall building about part of creating the hospital district. So they could build tall if they wanted, right? So how how do you want me to how many how do you want me to take a look at the residential districts? Well, my my first question was could you combine R1, two, and three understanding that your setbacks front and side and your dimensional requirements would reflect the surrounding block or neighborhood, however you want to call it, Lisa, what's your thought? So, the uses are uses are obviously

Oh, they're all pretty much the same. Yeah. So the front yard is easy because you can take the average on the same side of the block, right? The rear yard, you know, you can set a standard, you know, 25, 30, 35 ft, whatever you want. The sideyards are to me are more of a functional public safety. Doesn't the building code require 10 foot separation? um max residential and four is is yeah you have like five on each side you know each propertyy's got five and the distance between you can't

for sideyard setbacks he's talking between two different properties if your your you and your neighbor have structures five feet from the property line is that 10 ft they can be tight but then you've got fire separation requirements building and then guide people on that. Yeah. Well, yeah, you don't there is some privacy issues for sure and how close houses are. In-laws were in Curtis Park not an issue inside your closer in towns in situations. I mean, in the summer, you hear people talk from their kitchen. Yeah. In your house,

right? But if there's an existing home that's three foot from my property line, it shouldn't dictate I should be able to build the minimum 5 foot for my property line. I don't care that that house was there 100 years ago. It doesn't matter. Well, a building official care brick. They might. Yeah. It's if it's less than 10, then you're into some kind of fire separation. It's 10 or under. I don't. So I know for glazing it's like a certain percent opening but what is it an hour? I think I think it goes to a two hour doesn't hour separation. Yeah. Two hour.

But then the amount of glazing to you can have windows on those sidewalls. You can you can still have openings. Um, but it's like a percent base or or you also have to have like a sprinkler system dry or what you can still have openings. But I know I know when

I know when there's new buildings over in week along there because the lots are really small. County building department about what the separation distance is. And in some cases, the people that have built new buildings, the wall that because it doesn't meet that 10 foot, they've had to they've had to do fire separation and all kinds of stuff in order to meet the building code or else they're not going to they won't give them a building permit. A good example of it would be that fire sign got posted. Yeah. So the what I'm getting at the front yard and the rear yard are pretty easy to figure out. It's the sideyard that's tricky,

right? And in the 10 fire 10 the sideyard, it's commonly 10 ft in community developments to prevent fire spread and allow for emergency access. Key regulations often mandate a one foot minimum offset for roof edges and ease. These distances ensure adequate separation between buildings and solar installations create pathways for firefighters. So 10 ft is the typical five on each from each yard though. Yeah. Well, our right now you have to have you can have uh 30 feet side or is it 20T? It's five and 10.

Yeah. So you have to you can div him up but at one side has to be a minimum of five. So whatever's left over is the other side of the 15 ft. I think like said just for comfort of being able to like wash your windows or do stuff and walk past the side of your house. It's huge. And five foot is not much especially when you're excavating the angle of repo when you're trying to put a ladder up. Yeah. 48. So I've got on each side that each have garages that are right on the property. Mhm.

So I can't you know I'd have to build if I built something they'd be what 10 ft from that I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if I don't know what it is for a garage. Not a garage can go right up to the property line. No, not in the not in not those are all at least three, right? Like double leg. I mean, it's not Well, I'm not planning on doing anything, but it kind of ticked me off when I did the survey. They're both on each side. They're both right on the property. Yeah.

Yeah. My parents could arch next the eaves. There's like three inches between because we could go from as kids we could go from one garage to the other. Not we were ever in the garage row mom. Um but you know was there enough space to get in between and paint? Not really. But so that's part of what my real discussion was is should we look at also what is in some of these I don't know what to call them but the builtout neighborhoods. Yeah. And should I mean should we have a zone that 80% of the houses in that zone are not in the zone. Right. Well, we're talking about not doing that. We're not talking about not doing that.

But I think you can take it too far. In other words, some of the I've got a garage with a zero setback um right on the line. At some point, um you might argue, well, it's okay because that's the way they did it. On the other hand, you could say, well, we wouldn't want more of that, right? Like someone to build a new big We we'd rather have a little nurs in your one story, right?

I think we're doing a pretty good job of covering that already, too. Especially when you consider your front yard setback is average between three houses that are on same side of the block. I actually feel like that should be a bigger number. You do beveraging. Oh, I usually do the whole block. Yeah. Yeah. You could get a weird situation. But there are strange houses the stuff way that or like your house that's too close. Yeah. The house that was built on Michigan Street that's a new construction with a single car and a half garage. Um I think it was built by

No. No. Anyways, um that house originally sat way back and then they moved it up and it fits the character a lot better, but the style of the house doesn't necessarily fit the architectural vernacular. So, is that the one right there? Yeah, that was No, it was it wasn't Yes. Yeah. Oh, was on the other side. Yeah. Oh, sorry.

What What do you want to do with What do you want to do with the RM districts? I I kind of agree with with with Rick a little bit,

right? It it was common planning theory years ago, decades ago, that planners would identify neighborhoods and they would they all they they came to the assumption that neighborhoods that have a lot of uh I would say working families or lower income families, those were the neighborhoods that you wanted to convert into multiple family. Okay. And it it really became an injustice because a lot of small houses were carved up inappropriately and it changed the neighborhood character. Even though in these areas today in Paskki, there's a lot of nice single family neighborhoods. They're all they all have that RM kind of like hanging over their head that they could be.

Well, and historically that's where the federal government said all you know urban renewal happened in those neighborhoods. Yeah. And under the same highways have been building. So I mean you've got a fair chunk on both sides of the bear river that are RM1 and RM2. There's not a lot of differences in land use, but a lot of the housing in there is single family and dimensional requirements are fairly similar. Except RM1 has a much bigger front yard. Oh, RM2 has a bigger height.

Bigger. Yeah, RM2 has a bigger height. R1 has a uh front yard set. But what are you suggesting? Yeah,

I'm just throwing out some ideas. I'm not sure I'm suggesting anything right now. I'm thinking I'm thinking that geographically it's a large area. A lot of a lot of the properties in there are single family. Uh it could be we could classify it in a in a different residential classification called maybe mixed neighborhood or but but something that recognizes that you know the character of the neighborhood is combination. It's primarily single family with a scattering of some multif family apartments. And the apartments that you find in there, like there's the one on the corner of uh uh what's it and Monroe or Jackson maybe?

Jackson. Yeah. How many units is there? Five, six right there in the commercial building. There's a there's the commercial building. There's the there's an apartment building and then there's a house that's also an apartment building. Yeah, I'm talking about the apartment building. is not really big but no I don't stuck though. Yeah. Do you do we want to close out taking down three houses and creating um multi-unit housing? No. So then these existing ones should be kind of like the corner grocery. Yeah. Mixed in. So they either stay that way or they become nonconforming. Yeah, I can't turn something into now.

But we're not we want to introduce more into that neighborhood. Protect the people from taking a couple of small houses and make it. Yeah, that's already happened a few times. John, is there is there any rules municipalities can do on lot combinations? The ability a big Yeah. Yeah, you can do that. Yeah. How do you do it? Uh you can do it through an overlay or some standards in your code relative to community character. Why can't we do an overlay for duplexes then and multi family? Yeah.

On like you had mentioned earlier the heavy traffic areas like Kalamazoo where the corner ger is. Um it would make more sense in my eyes to do an area like that.

Yeah. I mean you can do it that way too. You don't have to do it necessarily as an overlay. I think you you can do a a duplex. You can either do it by right if it meets all the standards of the code or you can do it by a special land use permit. I like I like Cynthia's idea. The community is not that big where you can't have a pattern book, you know, where you have like three or four common designs that you know are going to fit into the neighborhood. And if somebody wants to build a duplex, here's the book. Here's three different designs. pick from one. They're already kind of pre-qualified by the planning commission. They all fit in with the neighborhood. Go ahead and do it. It's a good idea.

You know, it ends up with a builder track neighborhood. I would I would not like that. I like the idea of architecturally significant uh quad flexes or triplexes. But I mean, I don't want to pick from a design. I want something unique on every corner if this is going to be well but that you know but that's where you can get in trouble too with something unique where then the neighborhood says well that really looks out of place or Yeah. Yeah. So

and my concern is not so much if there were empty loting something up the neighbors but I my concern is taking I I know houses you know that I know houses by people's name. So you take the Parthy house on a street. Some of us know it's big white house, large white house halfway up the block between award and ll where the old hospital is. I'm concerned about somebody taking that and cutting it up. Yeah.

Into four quad plexes with stairways going the side, which is how we now your stairways have to go the side. That's going to change the character of that neighborhood. So I I'm more concerned about how they do a conversion and of a large house. We do have a lot of large houses that could become that neighborhood's not that's that doesn't allow anything more than a duplex in that right right now. But if we talk about it large house on state street well I don't think we really have decided that.

No but if we that's my concern about going so well the pattern book doesn't help us with that. You can't do a pattern book having a house right on and that's you know and that's what did happen on I my think thinking on Jackson Street going up here at first Jacksonville and Jefferson Street were where the original physicians live. Mhm.

So those were large physician houses that converted because they were easy they had the square feet inside converted to apartments. So now we have large houses uh all over town in different neighborhoods and I would just say to see those converted. So my concern is more not building new with pattern both but taking a classic old house and cutting it up into four apartments and on the traffic and other things that I mentioned. I had talked to a lady at Jackson once I was camping but um she said it was an old lady and she said literally I woke up one day and they had res my neighborhood multif family and after that

it just went to crap. Part of the problem was though is they didn't have a lot of the codes and regulations. So people were not only were they splitting them up but they weren't safe. They were not wired up to look good. It was really bad. Yeah. I mean there's a there's a property uh I think it's below some companies house some of that does relevate with modern codes and requirements. So um Max I'm thinking about we have landlords here that have built apartment buildings um and they don't fit with the neighborhood. They're cheaply

right created. That's what I want to avoid, right? I don't know if there's a way of saying you do these or you have to seek approval, architectural standard approvals. And that's I think that's great. Yeah. But when you're talking about cheaply done, I know in East Grand Rapids there's they a few tear downs and really nice traditional neighborhoods and people put up these glass things that don't I mean, someone might like the it doesn't fit in the bottle. It's weird. And then they were still letting we still have no real rental enforcement code at this point.

Matt and that's a tough tough thing to there's a lot of expense and everything. I understand that but that's another reason until we until you have a way of taking care of the house. I mean we yes we have the international building folder that we can out but we don't as a landlord you do not have to get a license. You don't have to have an inspection other than May 1st do it or unless your residents complain and say that this house is safe then they don't know where they're going to live if they do. So, you know, those that goes in hand.

What are your thoughts? Um, so there are some neighborhoods that are uh are in neighborhoods now and they were clearly it's a maybe it's Jackson. They were just all single family homes. It wasn't a neighborhood where there was some duplexes and quad. It was just single family homes. So now what it is is the same homes if some of them have been bucked up, some have been divided up and carved up and some have been left and actually some are going back to single family homes. Um what do you think you do? Do you do you say that's more of a single family home neighborhood? That's kind of what this future land use map is showing.

Yeah. because it's really what it was where it says mixed residential what's the term mixed means land mixed residential one and mixed residential two what are your thoughts on just

how many is is a mixed residential and allow up to five is that what you No, I I haven't I haven't I haven't thought really thought it through yet. I'm just trying to you know trying to get an idea of you know what I guess what I'm saying is the areas that they have that are currently zoned RM1 RM2. You would look at the map and think those are all but really they're the majority are single family with a scattering of some some units that have been carved up even in business. But, you know, and then the future land use map shows it kind of going back to maybe more of a single family context. And I kind of agree with that. Yeah. Um

I feel like we should provide more single family in these neighborhoods that we're talking about and then push a redevelopment of, you know, some land along the river like the lumber lofts and the lot for multif family. The whole lumber Maybe that's the solution. And maybe some of the denser ones need to be on major artery roads. I don't even build those. Maybe not.

You know, I would think based on you take a look at the number of units in Maple Block, you may end up with between what around 500 people that live there. 550. I bet you like in the area of Liberty, Monroe, Jackson, Madison, you're not going to have that many people that live in that area, right? Yeah. You know what I mean? So, you know, that the Maple Block is almost a neighborhood in itself when you when you compare it to other. So, uh yeah, I think I think if there's one thing dramatic you could do on the on the residential side of the ledger would be to change that RM2 area uh back into single family.

Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, that's also a lot of those homes that to become starter homes for something, you know, John and I were having a discussion. I would not have a problem. Well, I don't know how you enforce it, but taking a large house and make it into condos. were both own home, you know, owner occupied, but how do you prevent them from rent? I'm so confused because I thought you were against that cutting them off.

I guess it's kind of renting them because it sounds like Well, the problem with that I have that sometimes you don't have to um I mean, one thing I would like to is the more transformation of a existing industry into the multif family resial buildings. I mean there businesses in there now that would be great to see develop those areas where I think we should be focusing right and that wouldn't be tear downs.

No, that would be right. That would be like where Jade Yeah, but you wouldn't turn it down, right? Single family in there like behind Elder Piper like all of that like why is that industrial? Yeah, exactly. We need to along the river was industrial. Well, that's what your future land use map has in it is as neighborhood mixed use. Yeah. and that those were redevelopment areas that were singled out in the plan. And you know, the one area that you're talking about and one long ribbon of industrial property was designated as a redevelopment site. So

yeah, that's kind of consistent with what's in the plan itself. Just my question, D, was how much trouble do you think you would get into or problems with soil contamination in some of these industrial former if if it's solvable? I mean, yeah, maple block was a brown field. Yeah, they're all make remediation. Yeah. What did you say? Sometimes Bobfield actually gives access to Yeah.

So, I got an idea from you on the on the business districts. I'll have to start thinking it through on the overlay for the height and viewshed. Uh, do you want me to come back with a a a map for both the business and the residential districts to and then a bucket of uses for each one so we can at the next meeting we can start talking about all that? Yeah, that would be very useful and business first and residential. What's that? I would say business first to try to get that. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe hand us something to look at for residential otherwise.

Yeah. in the residential like if we're saying that the existing R2 could potentially roll into like just the R1 or whatever the R2 districts can we have mapped and we know like that's where um like apartment buildings are within certain areas like can we utility maybe I'd have to check we'll check we may have some databases that we maybe pull it from I know like around shar east of Hill Street. There's a couple there. But

yeah, we can we'll we'll check and see if we can't do that. John R3's detention requirements. What's that? What's now R3 requirements three? My sense at least Most of the hotel that's been built out for since the 1900 would fit in with current. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think that we do have a couple hour walks.

We want to save those, but that's really the only it's up by our first park is up by lease called Hill Grand Avenue. Um and uh by Jennings and and you know the new subdivisions out there. Well, most the other ones I think most of the city fit in R3 R3. Why is it really any different than the R2? They're really not. There's very few 72 foot lots. Fantastic. I think the differentiation, the way I looked at it was the R1 is more of a suburban style, right? Yeah. Then the R2 and the R3 were more of a historic neighborhood style, right?

You know, with the traditional lots, traditional blocks, some of them have alleys, stuff like that. But, you know, you get down to, you know, uh, uh, like in your neighborhood, Al Hillrest, Lawrence, Morgan, Curtis, that that that was more of a kind of like your suburban, you know, one one story ranch houses, things along those same thing up at Brown Winter Park Lane, which is kind of a newer form of it, but the densities there are definitely different and the feels feel of the character is definitely

some of the houses south of South D. Yeah. for later. And and what's always bothered me is there if you look at the difference or the delineation between R1 and R2 um at Lake Street, Bay Street, Rose Street, it's never been right. You know, Rose Street and Bay Street really should be part of the R2. That's correct.

Yeah. Part of R1, right? And that's what I'm saying. You look at the houses and other than there's very few lots that are, you know, minimum width of 700 feet. I bet you I I would, you know, do a fan that plays bad at all. I bet you 80% of the houses left. I struggled to help some of my neighbors who wanted to build garages that they were in the R1 district according to the map, but it was just like R2 everywhere else, you know, and they couldn't build a garage because it was,

you know, the setback was too much for R12 neighborhood. What is it worked in? Yeah, it would have worked in our Okay. Do you have closure? I think so. Okay. I got some homework. All right. So, um I guess I will open up the floor of public comments after our discussion. If anybody would like to speak,

you raise your hand if you're on the Is it a public comment for what you've been discussing something? Okay. For what we've been discussing. I think it the only thing is we're we own property that's right along with B3A district. And so our concern really was the height that you move.

Okay. and just more because there's just no buffer between the recommend 3A all the way up and down. Right? That was our concern about height not going higher problems that you have would be worth a twotory and if you go three or four then so that's you know our piece and maybe residential too what you're trying to use which I'm sounding pretty positive I guess on what the direction go so thank you No.

All right. Move on to commissioner comments. All good updates. Comment. Good. All right. or call endermanment at 7:30.