Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. Welcome to the City of Paris Planning Commission meeting, February 4th, 2026. Are you ready, Sylvia? Okay. At 6:04 p.m. That's why I was waiting to make sure she Okay. At 6:04 p.m. And at this time, we will have a roll call by our commission secretary.

Commissioner Menz here. Commissioner Lopez here. Commissioner Jimenez here. Vice Chair Shley here. Sher Hammond here. Thank you very much. This time we have a pledge of allegiance by Commissioner Manz. Please stand.

Thank you very much. At this time there are no presentation items. You move on to consent calendar. Item A, approval of planning commission minutes for January 7, 2026. Do we have any corrections, any deletions, or something that might have been missed? Okay, at this time we'll open it up for public comment on the uh consent calendar item 5A. If there's any public comment, we open it up for now. Seeing that there's no public comment, we close that and we move it to a motion. It's been moved by Commissioner Lopez. Seconded by Commissioner Menz.

Commissioner Menz, yes. Commissioner Lopez, yes. Commissioner Jimenez, yes. Vice Chair Shiveley, yes. Chair Hammond, yes.

With a vote 5 to zero, this motion is approved.

Thank you very much. And we move on to item 6A, public hearing items. Item 6A is a conditional use permit 25-05047. Conditional use permits 25-05047. a proposal to construct a 1,025 ft Dutch Brothers coffee shop with drive-thru service on a 050 acre portion of a larger 5.32 acre existing commercial shopping center located at the southeast corner of Paris Boulevard and Avocado Avenue in the commercial community zone. The applicant is John Kagglia, Dutch Brothers and the contact planner obviously is Raphael Garcia. Requested action adopt resolution number 26-02 finding the project is categorically exempt from the California Environmental Quality Act review pursuant to section 15332 and approving condition use permit 25-05047 to facilitate the construction of a 1,25 foot Dutch Brothers coffee shop with drive-thru service on a 050 acre portion of a larger 5.32 acre site based on the findings contained in the resolution subject to condition of approval any exparte communication drive by sites and or ad hoc committee meetings.

I attended I ad hoc for this item. I did ad hoc as well as uh I know the site fairly well. Pass by off often. I drive by the site daily. drive by the site daily. Definitely. I've driven by the site a lot. Mr. Garcia, it's time for your presentation.

Good evening, honorable members of the planning commission. As you indicated, the item before you tonight is for a conditional use permit for a site located on the southeast corner of Paris Boulevard in Avocado Avenue. It is uh part of an existing shopping center. Uh the surrounding land uses uh directly to the north are an existing shopping center as well as a car wash. Uh to the east and the south there is an existing shopping center that's uh been down now for several years. And to the directly to the west is uh are a wide variety of undeveloped lots associated with the harvest landing specific plan. Now, the general plan land use designation and the zoning are both community uh commercial community. And just as a reminder, the uh commercial community zone does allow drive-through restaurants with approval of a conditional use permit. Now, the image that you see here is a photograph street view image directly looking to the east from Paris Boulevard. There's also a second U street view image looking southwest from Avocado Avenue. Uh the site, as you indicated earlier, is approximately half an acre in sight. Um it's the uh only portion of the site that has yet to be developed. Um and the shopping center that's existing is approximately 5.32 acres in size. Uh the application before you tonight is for a 1,025 ft uh drive-thru coffee shop. It uh will have dual drive-through lanes as you can see there identified with the two red arrows along the east. Uh the dual drive-through lanes will converge into one lane as the drive-thru lanes converge around the building and they

will wrap around along the uh west side of the building where uh patrons uh will be able to pick up their coffee orders. Um the drive-thru lanes will be able to accommodate up to 21 vehicles. There will be one menu board per lane and overall the site is adding an additional seven parking spaces as part of this specific site. The parking standard that was used to park this project was the shopping center parking standard. Um overall the entire shopping center has more parking than what it needs. Has an overall surplus and parking of two spaces. the parking or excuse me the uh site will comply with all required development standards including lot coverage floor area ratio building height setbacks as well as landscape coverage. Um it is proposing a total of 26.9% coverage with regards to landscaping and the once again the community shopping center parking standard was the standard that was applied to the entire center. um and it's required to have a total of 243 spaces. The project site will have a total of 245 which results in a net surplus of two parking spaces for the entire center. As part of the development, the applicant is also proposing wide variety of landscaping, including uh a row of trees along the north side of the building, some new trees along the east side, um in order to amplify the overall appearance of the site, as well as a wide variety of landscaping and trees throughout the balance of the site to help provide shade and improve the aesthetic appearance of the site overall. Now, the building uh will include a wide

variety of features and characteristics uh that is consistent with the overall branding uh associated with Dutch Brothers. Uh it will include a smooth cement plaster sighting uh metal awnings that are going to be located along all sides of the building. Uh they will also have stack stone along the base of the building to again improve the exterior appearance of the building and they will have a complimentary color scheme that's consistent with the Dutch brother that with the Dutch brothers branding um concept. The building will be approximately 24 ft in height as measured from the tallest portion of the building. The balance of the building will be approximately 20 ft 10 in in height. They will also have a canopy along the east side uh facing the shopping center. This canopy is going to be over the window that's going to be for the pedestrian pickup uh area. So, anybody going to pick up uh food from that window is going to have a canopy over them to protect them from the elements. Uh there also will be a wide variety of signage throughout that's consistent with the Dutch Burough's uh uh company profile and there will be um any mechanical mounted uh roof mounted equipment will be completely screened from view as part of the parapit that's being incorporated into the overall design of the building. Now, with that said, the project is categorically exempt from the California Environmental Quality Act pursuant to SQL section 15332 and that this constitutes an infill

development. Uh, with this in mind, staff is recommending that the planning commission adopt resolution number 26-02, finding that the project is categorically exempt from the California Environmental Quality Act guidelines pu pursuant to section 15332. Uh staff is also recommending to approve conditional use permit 25-05047 for the construction of a 1,025 foot drive-through coffee shop based on the findings contained in the resolution and subject to the conditions of approval. As a reminder, uh John Kagglia, representative on behalf of Dutch Brothers, is in the audience tonight and I believe he would like to make a brief presentation. Other than that, that concludes the presentation on behalf of staff and uh staff is more than happy to respond to any questions that the members of the commission may have or any members any members in the public.

Thank you very much, sir. And at this time, if the applicant has a presentation, you're more than welcome to come to the podium and just state your name for us. We know who you are, but just

John Kagglia. I'm a representative for Dutch Pros. First of all, I want to say thank you for having me here today. Also, I found it's some of these birthdays. So, I think two of you people have a birthday. So, happy birthday for that. But, um really we're not new to the area. Obviously, you know, we have one store Marina Valley. We opened about eight months ago. Um I live in Lake Kels, so this is my sister city. So, thank you for that. Um we're just excited to be part of the community and finally get a store open in in Paris. So, so people don't have to travel so far to other cities to to try our beverages. So, if you have any questions, I'll be free free to answer those for you. Oh, okay. I was waiting for a presentation. Okay. Thank Thank you. Okay. Any questions at this time for staff and or the um applicant?

I have one question. Uh I know that there are a few um road improvements with this project. Are there any improvements to the the parking lot area in this as well included in this? Well, there are improvements based on the development for for us and in the surrounding areas per se. There aren't any per se to the offsite. I believe we have a in Lua fee that we're paying for that. U but based on the you know the part of the development we're going is not developed right now. Obviously the area touching the development will be improved for our site. Yes. Okay. Got it. Thank you.

You're welcome. I did want to ask um for our traffic engineer, what is the distance of the driveway from the streets, especially going on Avocado and Paris?

Raphael, can we uh see the map? I think it's about 150 to about 200 feet though. And those are existing driveways. The locations for these driveways would remain in place. So they're already existing. They're already existing, right? They're just utilizing those existing driveways. Okay. And we don't have anything that reviews the traffic flow within the already existing development, do we? Shopping center.

Yeah. So, um, with regards to the site, I guess one of our main concerns, to be honest with you, was making sure that the that there's no overflow from the drive-through lane and that we know that Dutch Brothers can get very busy because they're very popular.

So, we've actually worked with the applicant to attempt to address that. And one of the things that the applicant has is they actually have an on-site traffic management plan. They have an operations plan to try to manage the parking, especially as part of kind of the grand opening. and um in case there's any type of overflow parking to try to manage that as effectively as possible. But based on uh past experience, I think John can probably elaborate on that specific item or they they've indicated that uh they haven't really had uh a huge traffic issue that would lead to any obstructions on the public rideway. So the goal is to manage it so that the site as currently designed will be able to fully accommodate any traffic demand that's on site, especially when you account for their operation plan. But uh I'll allow John to uh elaborate on those details.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Um like he said, we do have a traffic mitigation plan. We we apply to every store. Obviously, um with this site having 20 cars, we don't see more than 14 cars stacking at most of our sites. I do I do establish that any new brand that opens to the city is going to be busy for the first couple weeks due to the the hype of it, per se. But like we saw at the Marino Valley store, the hype down uh died down about two weeks after we opened and it's down to more normal levels. Like right now I actually looking at my security cameras from our Marino Valley store. I have I have seven cars in the drive-thru right now. So as we build more stores, which is fantastic, the traffic we're seeing at overall stores is going less and less and less because that was by design that eventually every store is more equalized versus just having like one store 30 miles away from another store. So um just to let you know like obviously I have the Marino Valley store we opened eight months ago currently start construction on another one last week on across from the closed right aid. Um and then obviously we do have you know most cities we do plan on having at least two to three stores. So u you know once we get this one open I would see another one probably within the next two years opening up here as well. So the goal with our customers is we we don't want anyone waiting in a line longer than five minutes. So, you know, and and then the nice thing is we don't we're not like in and out where we have food, you know, full food. It's it's beverages. So, it's it's literally like here's your beverage, have a beautiful day and and move on. So, you know, it's beauty of it. So, thank you.

And just to expand on what John and Raphael brought up was our uh city requirements require eight drive-through spots with our traffic study because obviously Dutch Bros is a little different than a typical fast food. As John's mentioning, we had them do a uh study for the drive-through queuing. And as John mentioned, there were a few different locations throughout the region that they studied, and the max queue that they had was 16 where this 21 spaces is more than sufficient. Of course, you know, opening day may act act differently than a you know, typical Tuesday night, Wednesday night, but um as John mentioned, they would have their on-site operations plan.

Okay. Thank you. Next question is, if you're entering from Avocado, how tight is that U-turn to try to get into the queue or would it be you have to like drive in further into the shopping center, wrap around? I guess I want to know what the expectation is. Yeah, I mean, it looks like from center line of the lane for the southbound drive aisle to center line for that far east drive-thru, that may be about, I don't know, 35 ft. It's a tight It's a tight turn. Um, but that's why you have the dual you have the two options coming from Avocado there where maybe you would make that turn into the left lane if you have a bigger truck or bigger vehicle.

You know where I'm going with it. Yes, of course. Yeah. But again, with the site here, there's only so much room for this to work. And they've really, you know, back and forth with staff. They've really maximized the space to make it work as much as possible. And to let you know, here's a funny fact. So when I started with Dutch three years ago, I have a large family. I have five kids and we have a Sprinter van. And one thing I thought, my wife does not want to get out to go get a cup of coffee. Yes.

So I specifically designed my sites in Southern California. There's no height bar. Everything can clear a sprinter van that's that's 9 foot eight tall. I had no concrete islands other than the ones that are surrounding the menu boards. Protect the menu boards. But our our sites are designed for my wife in mind. So So because a lot of people, you know, in this area have bigger views. No. And and like I said, you look at the site plan, there's not a height bar specifically because so my wife can go to to any des without having to get out of that spinner van. Get all the kids out. Get all the kids out. Exactly. And you could kind of see with the design too at the bottom right. It is there is a little bit of a return there to help with the wheel path. So they did try to accommodate as much as possible.

Yeah. Okay. And then I just want to clarify because I did see that around the north on Avocado and is it the east there is going to be a three-foot hedge or some kind of barrier, right? So we don't see the cars as much. Yes, they will they they will have a um a a wall pony wall to screen a portion of the cars and they also will have a hedge along the uh north side and the walls actually going to wrap around to the to the west side. It's in there. Yeah, but there's no cards in the picture to see how high.

Yeah. And I did want to ask um can we go to the elevations please? Okay. Um I think there was a one where it's like the 3D rendering. I wanted to see how big of that section on the far left, the light gray. It just looks a little forgotten. And I think this is a view from Paris Avenue.

Yeah. So I, you know, I can't speak to that. I believe that's Stuckco. We also have a gray nichiha, but you know, one of the things that's a little deceiving is this building is very small. A lot of cities say, "Hey, can you do more articulation?" I go, "The building is literally like 45 ft long." So, um, I have photos here if you want to see them after the fact of stores like this that are done. But I will say it it's very complimentary. Um, I could probably do the backout of an Ichiha, which which is like matches the blue but it's in a gray color instead of the Stuckco per se. If you looking for a little bit more um, you know, discrepancy in materials and I'll be working well okay with planning to just do that. Why we do CDs and stuff like that

if you're open to that just because I think on this side and then on the other side too I think there was another elevation where it still looks a little like it's beautiful bland. Yeah. And I know it's small. I know it when you look at the proportion. Um, but I think in some we've done where there's like a trellis with plants or something even like it on the other side because there was the other side elevation I think was also a little see a little but I mean but there was another one I think that one too.

Yeah. So that that side is also popped out, but we we can switch that to a nichiha product that you know it's not the color of the blue you see in the tower, but it's a it's a gray panel. I actually think if you've been to the Hammet one, I think we have that in the back there, too. So, we're okay with changing some material difference in the back there. Yeah, I think working with staff because they know what we're looking for. So, I think just working with staff to to just make sure it blends because even like the the accents with the stone, it kind of just drops off. But the other one too is just like

articulation, articulation, beautiful stone and then nothing in that section. So something just to make sure that there's more of a flow, consistent flow through the um architecture. I think Steph knows what I mean, right? Like you see it. No. Or you knew I was going to say that, I'm sure. So, you're expecting about once it dies down about 14.

Well, I mean, eb and flows. I mean, as being a coffee shop, obviously, you have the morning rush and then it's it's I don't like to use the word dead, but we have a little bit of a a lunch cra uh crush. Also, I believe there's a high school down the street here, too. So, we will definitely probably see an after after school rush, and then we probably won't see another rush until five or six. And then after that between, you know, 7 and and whenever we close, it's one or two cars every minute or so. I mean, it's, you know what I mean? It's definitely driven by coffee and beverage demand at those peak times. So, yeah, that was my next question because there is a high school to see if there was any additional security or anything else you had because

luckily I will say that we haven't had any issues. I mean, our our demographic is kind of fits the high school kids, you know, per se. And we haven't really had any issues uh with with high school kids per se. And we don't One reason is we don't have any indo or seating either. So you get your beverage. They have to take it and go. They have to take it to go. Exactly. So Okay. Um I think that's it for me for now. I I'll give everybody a chance.

Yeah. I you pretty much answer that because the ad hoc did which kind of screened a lot we were going to that's why we have it. Um, my concern I think I dial up with engine I'm not going to prolong is leaving Avocado in which she just going to have to have some repairs. My wife likes the restaurant over there, the Jamaican restaurant. I can't help it. I'm constantly there. Um, but there and Avocado needs some improvements and I think that's factored into it. But turning left on the Paris Boulevard, I'm not going to make this issue but that's is an issue of safety and I think that's one of those things that you got to work with the city with on that one. And I think I'm going to contribute some funds to that.

Yeah, I I believe during the course of entance that was one issue that was brought up and and we came to a mutual agreeable solution to that. So I would not underestimate the numbers. I I know Marina Valley. This is not Marina Valley. This is Paris Boulevard and you have a potential project. Don't count on those. Not the same. It's a major thorough affair. And if Harvest Landings are you have twice the amount you have a mega amount of people you're happy to build as many stores as Paris wants. Yeah. So I mean in that location don't don't underestimate the amount of people cuz Starbucks put four or five this is lioncept we don't want to be Starbucks I don't want one every 5t but we definitely want to be able to serve the community exactly I'm just saying the main throw because it is Paris Boulevard

and across from potential development it's I wouldn't underestimate the numbers and like I said we are looking at other sites right now in Paris you know you know unfortunately as being a new branch in Southern California it takes time literally three years ago I only had Eastfell and then I opened in Orange County, Fountain Valley, which I'm surprised you guys haven't brought up to me. And and there was lines a mile long along and and then I built another one in the same city about 6 months later and there was three cars. Oh, yeah. So, you know, so but as I I now have 40 in Southern California, it's it's tapered off the amount of traffic. So, but it's just it's just that we and people do that all the time. They underestimate Paris and then we warn them later. Oh, I've built

and then we say I told you so when In and Out didn't think they were going to at 1:00 in the morning, right? So it's just an is that's more the reason why we're bringing up some of this because it is parish at a potential development to the west. Um my but turning left from there is a safety issue and that's something that should be worked out. That's my only issue because everything else obviously we could talk about landscaping. This is a landscaping commission as well. We we're constantly in the landscaping. So we're going to nickel and dime people on that one. It would be 50% if not up to us. But the idea is we're being nice and saying 26. Okay. But the idea is that it makes a difference because it's a main thoroughare street.

And so that's why it's so popular. Uh other than that, I think um the width of these driveways is the standard 26 ft because I don't know if they they're existing. I think they're a little bit wider than 26 feet actually. They might wider especially the one off Avocado and Parish Boulevard. Yeah. just I guess because it's old now there just looking at Google Earth I know that's not official but it's about 30 feet I would say that's good that makes it really easy

lastly I think what she's talking about but the only other example I can think of on the same street is the McDonald's effect and I'm not comparing you to McDonald's but the idea is that you go in and it's a two lane and you make that quick right turn to go into the the lane so if you're a truck it could be an issue But coming off the street, main street is like a 100 feet or so before you actually get to the that one drive out. It's the one coming from the north from the car wash and all the other stuff. Uh that you turn that little quick right turn to go into the drive out. So that again, you know, it's it's one of those things where, you know, you you hope you can make that right turn and you don't end up blocking the way if there's a lot of cars coming that way from avocado. So you if you know what I'm talking about, you come north from Ivocado going south into the drive aisle. It's that quick right and that little curve there. And if you I don't have a truck, but but if you turn right there, it's it's basically the same thing as the McDonald's effect.

And so sometimes they get crowded and you got to line up and it goes on all the way back out. But it's I guess because it's coming off the street, it's a little bit more significant than if you're just coming through that parking lot. So that's why avocado has to be, you know, really looked at. So for Avocado, Avocado is classified as a local street, 40 ft wide, curb to curb, Paris Boulevard. Um,

I mean, I know ideally it would be nice to have right turn pockets. The west side of the street obviously is not built out yet. So all the striping on Paris Boulevard is actually shifted over to the east currently today because the curbon gutter on the west side is not there. So once the westside development gets built, then we would have a true uh curb to curb uh roadway for Paris Boulevard. But right now, everything on Paris Boulevard is skewed to the east. So that's why we don't have enough room to accommodate a right turn pocket.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think I was talking more about if you're coming into the drive, if you look at the the site plan, you're coming in the drive from Avocado and you're going into that right well the farthest eastern portion of the drive to where the menu board is. You're making that quick turn around there. And I mentioned McDonald's because it's the same thing as McDonald's. And so you make that little quick right turn there and there's cars coming from the street. It's not a problem if they're going left, but it's that making sure there's enough room there to make that truck if you got these truck people. Well, we'll get Elizabeth a smaller car. She can't fit in there. Yeah, I know. That's what it's going to take. Got her smart car or something.

That's the only Yeah. Yeah. So, that there's As long as there's enough space there to turn right, I don't really have much of concern there. There is. It's sufficient. Okay. Or just drive over the whole thing anyway. I didn't say that, right? Okay. That's it for me.

I did have one more. Um the lighting of the landscaping and just lighting in general because I'm very familiar with the area and I one of my favorite restaurants is in that shopping center and I I mean I I go there but I know it's not the safest and the lighting is not super bright. So do we have because I I was trying to find it. We usually do like a lot of uplighting with the plants and just to light up make sure that this is like very well lit just for safety of the employees as well because they'll be closing.

So the site is is sorry the site has ample light based on what's required by code per se. Going back to upline for landscaping since all the landscaping is not next to the building. It's away on the street side. There is no landscaping light in there. I'm going to be honest with you. It was also it was something the city as originally asked us for um due to somebody that builds a lot of stores and and maintains these stores too. Um, we also look in the mind of actual maintenance or theft. And one of the first things we see on stores with any lighting is it gets stolen within the first six months because homeless see copper and they see wire and they and they steal it. So, it becomes more of a nuisance. So, but we did design the site for ample lighting around there for this the parking lot. And then obviously the buildings itself have um we along the front actually right there those three pillars there's a a decorative uh sconce light on each one of those pillars. Goes up and down. It's a beautiful color. If you ever stop by one of our stores, they all have it and stuff like that. So, the stores are are really well bright and and I'm sure based on the shopping center, based on the age of it, and some of the older lighting there, uh we will stand out in a good way for the shopping center

also because it is like a pivotal corner and if we get built across the street, like lighting, especially in that corner is going to be like super important. Commissioner Jimenez, we do have a condition. We do have a condition of approval 17A ab requiring up lighting along the street frontages. Okay. Can you give some clarification on that because I remember Ashley having that removed for the landscaping. Yeah, we do have uh condition 17B uplighting. It says landscaping along the street frontages shall be enhanced with up lighting.

I believe we actually asked that condition removed. So there is a condition uplight that talks about uplighting 17B. Uh from my recollection what the applicant saying is correct. They are basically requesting for that to be struck from the conditions of approval.

Okay. Yeah. Is that something that we could consider adding back?

No. And the reason I I'm saying that once again is we want to make sure that the store stays beautiful and the landscaping says beautiful, but every store that we have put up lighting in gets stolen or destroyed within the first six months. So the idea is we want to build something that will last long term. Also, as myself living in the area, we don't see any other street frontages that have the uplighting for that. So we're trying to be more consistent with the area as well. But from a a blind standpoint, it's something we we don't want to do.

Okay. I think with the amount of down light is on polemounted signs or polemounted uh lights, I think it kind of balance counterbalances the up lights anyway because there's five five down lights uh pull mounted signs or excuse me pull mounted lights through the whole building. So through the whole site I think there's five or six of them there. So I think it would counteract

that that is a good point also just to there will be a phototric plan that will be required as part of this. Typically we review to make sure that there's sufficient lighting throughout the site without adversely impacting any adjacent neighbors. In this case there really isn't a neighbor that they're going to impact. But as part of the phototric plan we typically look at that to make sure that there's not that the site's going to be safe and they're going to have sufficient lighting that that there's not going to be any issues or anything like that. Yeah, I think the clarification is street furniture is is would be unusual, but up against the building is a different story. And so lighting on post and things of like that is kind of normal on the building attached to the building. I think that's what we mean. But if it's by the street that would they're thinking that they might that would might be a a safe. So along the street frontage but on the building where you have lit up um that's going to be something you know of consideration for you guys. I think um where they had they might do that across the street if they've approved that where you have a large gathering like but I'm not sure with this particular

I have a sorry I I have a photo here if you like to see what our store actually it's very actually this is exactly what we would be building here with the nichiha in the back for you if you'd like to see what the building looks like at night. Alfredo, does In and Out or Raising Canes have uplighting of landscaping along the street? Because those are some of our newer developments. You know, I I can't recall right off the bat if that was a condition of approval that was included as part of that.

Trying to remember to do it. Anybody remember if they have lighting? But they do have some on the street. Even the better buzz. Did we do uplighting from along the landscape street frontage? Patricia, do you remember if we did lighting for um In and Out Raising Canes and Better Buzz along street frontage? I don't recall. Uh but in and out is in the back um closer to the freeway. So you don't there's minimal um

I mean like along that street, the old level road. Yeah. I don't recall seeing lighting on on that landscaped area. Okay. Just the one from like their lightings and stuff. Okay. Any more questions for the the applicant?

I did want to ask um is there going to be any lighting or striping that is going to be done uh along the driveways? There's a lot of pedestrians in that area, so we can see them at night because I know the lighting from the building is substantial, but pedestrians especially because they will be walking up to the window on along the driveways going in to the development.

Uh, technically the path of travel or the AD path of travel by code has to be liten to a certain degree of candles. I believe it's two two candles per foot. So I mean there'll there'll be by code the lighting that's required by code for that. You say lighting some of that would be there with lighting or you just talking about overhead lighting.

I mean with with the phototrics that that needs to be provided um that walkway needs to be a minimum one foot candle um on that walking surface. So, if it's not, then they can either need to provide another um polemounted um light or rearrange the lights to be able to provide that. But that's in the development, right? I was asking more along the lines of the driveway in Avocado and Paris to come into the The nearest one is along Paris Boulevard. Um somewhat in the the entrance. Mhm.

Um it might be at the the limits of its reach, but again it they might be able to modify the location of it. It is in front of the uh transformer um which might also be an issue withce where the the lines are running. But um that's part of the one of the part of the is the things they're going to have to do with the photometrics of the site. Okay. Okay.

You're in deep thought. I wasn't. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. And once again, happy birthday. Yeah. Sure. At this time, we open it up for public comment. One of the public wishing to address the planning commission on this issue and this item only is welcome to come forward at this this time. Seeing none, we close the public comment, public hearing, and we move on to discussion, analysis, whatever you want to call it.

Um, I personally have no issues with this uh with this item. Um, I saw this item earlier in ad hoc. Um there's a couple things that I wanted to tweak um with the landscaping and um screening of the transformer and um after reviewing the plans, they they included all the changes that we requested for the applicant. So I appreciate that. Um um the the building is very consistent with what Dutch Brothers does as as far as their branding and I' I've looked at other buildings online and they they do look very nice. Um so I have no issues at all. Um, and I appreciate the applicant for um, presenting this project to us and it's going to be nice having a different variety of coffees out here in for the city.

I want to follow I also don't have any um massive or any issues at all with this project. Um, I'm really excited for the location that it's in because I know that that um, shopping center is in need of some life. Um, and I think this will be a really good gateway to getting life into that area. So, I'm really excited. Um, I the only issue is it's on my way to work and I'm scared about um it putting me into financial ruin, but that's my own problem to deal with. Um, other than that, I I really enjoy this project and and I appreciate you bringing it to us.

So, I think uh Dutch Brothers is a a very welcome um to city of Paris especially on this particular site being such a small postage stamp site that uh much most any other building cannot go there. So I think uh this small thousand foot store really suits the the site very well and again the location I think is going to be um well suited for it um once other um developments around around Paris Boulevard occur. But um I think it's going to be good for good for Paris, good for um Dutch Brothers as well. So, so Patricia, the only thing I have um also is uh conditional use per conditional use number 13 is either we need to change the code to 2022 or 2025 just to be consistent with the other portions of it. Probably 2022. There's another part on I think it's 48 I think something like that. says it's got to be it's got to be the building when submitted to the building department has to be to the current code.

So, it's just to be consistent with one or the other. 2023 to 2025. Yeah. Well, 25 is the current code, but a lot of documents in there say 22. Well, 22 20 Well, January 1st was a cut off. So, So it should read Cal Green standards for 20 say 2022 and it'll I think it'll be fine because the other codes portion of it says needs to comply with the current codes. We we can just add with the current either way it just 23 is not the current

okay or past code.

Thank you. Yeah. So like the current the current because change next week current stands for shade trees and commercial pocket. Okay. It's a matter of wording. Okay. Okay. Um anything else? I did want to ask the the lighting is kind of a big deal for me because I'm familiar with the area and then with students walking here. It gets dark early around December. So students walking around this area. I know there there's a lot of foot traffic here. There's a bus stop close by. So that is a little bit of a concern for me. Um I like that the building itself is super lit, but I really am thinking about the safety of I have a 16-year-old and a 20-year-old daughter and just imagining them walking past driveways and people are not always looking. That is a little bit very much a concern for me for for safety reasons. Um not a deal breaker but definitely a concern. Um we just had a somebody who was unfortunately hit by a vehicle on Novo and um Paris last week. So that is a concern for me not being able to see the students. We know they don't follow safety rules because they're so involved with their friends that they don't always. So that is a concern for me. Um, also employees walking to take the trash out at night and it's not very well lit. Um, that is a a pretty big concern of mine. So, I think I do want us to check more into um I know most of our industrial developments have requirements for the uplighting of landscaping, but I think we haven't had that I don't think for most of our our um commercial development. So, maybe looking into that a little bit further.

So, like I said, not a deal breaker, but it is a concern of mine. Um, same Dutch Brothers. Um, there's one where I get my hair done in Upland. And the muffin tops, if you haven't had them, you need to have a muffin top. Like, you have to have a muffin top. Um, the poppy seed one is my favorite. Um, but it is something that is needed. But I know that everybody always says because when they opened up the one in Marino Valley, everybody was like, "Why Marino Valley? Why not one in Paris? Why do we have to travel?" So now, and I it's a perfect place because you know those high schoolers getting out of school are hungry. They're thirsty. So it's a good area for it. Looking forward to it. I think it is very much needed. Beautiful development with those changes on once we add that. It's beautiful. Um, so it it's something that is needed to really beautify that corner because it's beautiful on the other side and this the side that this is going to go in just feels like it needs a little facelift and I think this is going to be like the the spark to get hopefully that whole area get a facelift.

Thank you. I do want to just say something about the light real quick. I have to open up I'd have to open up public hearing again. Let me I'm all gonna go first and then I'll I'll open it up. I promise. No problem. Thank you.

Um thank you. I I won't be long. Trust me, I won't be long. One of the things too been a city going on 36 years. So, and I don't think that's been there that long, that place, but I'm not sure. It looks like it's from the 90s. It's probably designed in the 90s, but even before Jeff Ty was there. I told you how old I am. But the idea is that that was been going that's been vacant for some time. Um and nothing going I had no idea. I thought it might be another fast food thing and just just stick it on the corner. Um, the demand and the popularity of this and and some of the push has been on us is tremendous. You have no idea. You have no idea. We see these people all the time. So, when does this come? Come on. Okay. What do you want me to do? I don't own property in the city. But trust me, it is very much in wanted and demanded. I keep getting all these emails popping up from Harvest. I mean to take those off. But anyway, the idea is that um I think it's well thought out. I've been I've been by the one on Magnolia in Riverside, which you didn't mention. Uh it was a Tuesday. There was a lot of cars. There's a lot of cars. Okay. And this this area in an empire is booming. Other places are dropping. Yeah. LA's dropping. I wouldn't put anything in LA, but this area is really pushed as you could see what's going on across the street potentially. So, I think that corner is perfect and it's on Paris Boulevard, so it makes it a perfect fit. and and and I agree with her wholeheartedly. It's more of an administrative thing than me. It might be Ballards. It might be some other things without you can't pull out of the ground ballards that are lit. That's a perfect thing. And I'm doing the job for an architect now. But those are things that can't be talking about near the sidewalk, but I'm talking right if there's a walking path. You want to make sure because this area is notorious for people and we're being nice.

Uh it's notorious for unsavory characters. Is that a nice way of putting it? politically correct way. Okay? And we know it because we're here all the time and especially it's no good in daytime. It's when you drive by these places at night, that's when you understand what it means to have security. And so the building itself with all that, no problem at all. It's just if you're going to have walk up, that's a concern at night and it gets dark at 5:00. Now you want to walk up, you want to be safe, you know, and and it's it's just a matter of, you know, a walk up where you walk up to the window, you don't have to feel like, oh my gosh. Yeah. at least you know some modicum of safety and that's to me it's an administrative thing I think it might be built in there but something that consideration just like the city's going to put into the street thing that's consideration public but that's for the city to deal with so it's one of those things where if there's a way to just light up the path you know said you can't pull it out of the ground uh that would probably and a mother too who has this age group and they want to do this phone and then coffee. Okay. I'm not sure what order is. The phone first, then the coffee second. Take any one as a suicide. I want to commit suicide. You took my phone away. What? But this is that's that age group. And so they going to be down the street and they would be there. I guarantee this high school is going to come, you know. So it's not if they will. And so they're not going to hang around, but they're going to still want to come up even in the evenings after games, after football, things like that. Oh, let's go with Dutch Brothers. I I have no problem if I own Dutch birds. I'm living it up. Okay. But where was safety? It's just a matter of safety, something consideration. But I think that's pretty much it for me. Um and as far as the design and all that, it's not a problem. All that's been worked out. I don't have any issues. You're getting off pretty easy today, but I don't normally we really drill people, but you I don't I just don't have any. It's too much of a popular thing. It's very important. And I'm not

sure if it's Dutch. He says Dutch Bros. That's what we see from South LA. Or is it Dutch Brothers? Which one is it? Well, here's the funny thing. So, when I started here three years ago, okay. Oh, you haven't opened it yet, though, I didn't open it yet. You didn't open it yet. Yeah, but Dutch Bros. because I'm not sure how to pronounce it. Is it Dutch Bros or D? Either way, I'll let you do that later. Or Dutch Brothers. Dutch Bros. Well, anyway, it says Bros, right? Okay. But anyway, that's it for me. Is there any more discussion? Okay. I wasn't sure just how to pronounce it because I'm up here saying, but I'll let you do that. Okay. Anyway, that being said, we can reopen it if that's a approval of the planning commission. We can reopen the public hearing the public comment portion and allow you to uh

appreciate that. Thank you. Um first the bro bro the bros of brothers thing. So when I started here three years ago being in like state of brothers right around us I said oh brothers and they're like it's bros. I'm like bro is abbreviation for brothers and by the way our founders were two brothers. So, but we've we've let go of that. You can call it brothers or bros if you want. So, we we our our coffee baristas, we call them broistas. So, but what I wanted to go to is the light. So, like I said, I have five kids, too. And just to let you know, this project is mine until it opens. So, I'm not up here as a representative and you'll never see me again. I'm the one that oversees the construction of the building, too. So, obviously, when we submit our CDs to the city staff and planning, they they require us to do a photometric to make sure it's safe and there's ample lighting. I will also give you my personal guarantee when I turn over the store at night. If you would like to come by Elizabeth and walk with me if there seems to be an area where we need additional light, I will make a point to add it. But I'm pretty sure that with the amp the lighting that's required by the city through the photoometric plan, there will be ample lighting. Um, going back to up lighting, most most uplighting is considered decorative. It's not really uh safety. It's more decorative. And that that's why we we're pushing back against that because that gets stolen. We're not against safety light whatsoever. I guarantee you when you show up here, you'll be like, "Oh my god." Because I know the shopping center, too. It's darker because the lights are older. We will look like a baseball field on that corner. So, we will probably enhance the security for the shopping center. So, with that being said, once again, I want to say thank you and uh I'll wait for a vote.

Thank you very much, sir. We close the public hearing again. Mr. Chair, if I can u also add to that just to give the commission a little bit of confidence on the lighting. Uh condition number 28 um requires the phototric uh plan which um indicates that um at least one foot candle of light shall be provided in all parking lots. So the parking area that they're proposing and the pedestrian areas for safety and security. um they will be brighter than any uplighting that could be provided along the frontages just for landscaping and like the applicant indicated the uplighting is more decorative to enhance the landscaping. So I just wanted to add that uh just to give you a vote of sense of security on you know how lit this is going to be.

That was number 28 not 20. Yeah number 28 which you said Jack is that it would be that one foot one foot handle. Okay, I'll leave it to the architect to tell me what that means. Okay. Okay. Um, all discussion is ended. In fact, with discussion, there's no more discussion and and and uh if I can add, I do have some um uh corrections for conditions of approval. I don't know if you want me to wait until the motion. I'll go through it.

Okay. Uh condition number six, um if we can correct the date from 2025 to 2026. Um also there's a condition that was inadvertently left. Uh that's condition number 11 that should have been removed. Um we are making the change per um Commissioner Shiveley um to indicate um current as opposed to 2023. Yeah. U 17B um strike. Sorry. 17B to strike out the uplighting condition per the applicant's recommendation. And that was 13B too, right? Yeah. Oh, yes. 13. Yes.

13. 13. And then also um condition number 34 um that it be uh required prior prior to grading as opposed to prior to certificate of occupancy. And those are my corrections. Thank you. Okay. Number 34.

Prior to grading permit instead of prior to certificate of occupancy condition number 34. 44. 34. 34. Okay. I'm sorry. Okay. Rating. Well, that makes sense. certificate. Okay. Okay. And I'll go through the Well, we can go through this. Okay. Obviously, it's number six. We're changing it to 2026. Uh number 11. And I'm not sure what 11 changed for number 11. Just removed. Just removed. Only left there.

Wow. Okay. Number 13 to say current. Number 17B, we're striking out the idea of street lighting or street up lighting. Number 34, grading permit uh replaces certificate of occupancy. 17B is deleted entirely. Yeah. Yes, that's what he said. Strike out. Yeah. Yes. Okay. How's that for you, Sylvia? Okay. You're better than I am. And and if and if we can add another condition uh per commissioner Jimenez to enhance the east and west elevations with materials consistent with the blue tower.

East and west. East and west. Yes. East and west elevations. Was it um veneer or nothing in particular or was Oh, just working with Okay. Oh, sorry. To work with Steph.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That should do it for that one. That's all I can think of for that one. Okay. On the table is condition to use permit. The proposal construct 10,00 Oh, a 1025 square foot Dutch Bros. Dutch Brothers. I like Bros. coffee shop with a drive-thru service on 050 acre portion of a 5.32 acre existing commercial shopping center located southeast corner Paris Boulevard and Avocado Avenue in the community commercial zone. Requested action to adopt resolution 26-02 find that the project is category exempt from the California Environmental Quality Act review pursuant to section 15332 infill development and approving conditional use permit 25-05047 to facilitate construction of a 125 foot Dutch Brother coffee shop with drive-through service on a 050acre portion of a 5.32 acre site. Based on the findings contain the resolution subject to condition approval and with the amendments as so stated and do I need to state them again? Okay. Do we have a motion for approval? Okay. It's been moved by Commissioner Lopez, seconded by Vice Chairman Shively. Commissioner Mess. Yes. Commissioner Lopez,

yes. Commissioner Jimenez, yes. Vice Shaveley, yes. Hammond, yes. With a vote five to zero, this motion is approved. Thank you very much. Let's get the coffee.

I'll see you guys in 9 months. The grand opening. Thank you very much. Bring your truck. I see I think any views. Okay, we move on to item 6B, specific plan amendment 25-00003. Proposal to revert the land use designation of approximately 2.5 2.9 acre parcel from future Parish Valley storm drain to light industrial located south of Perry Street, approximately 700 ft east of Redlands Avenue, consistent with the guidance of the Paris Valley Commerce Center specific plan. When a portion of a regional abortion is no longer needed, the applicant and I'm going to say was written is the city of Los Angeles. Uh and the requested action is to adopt resolution 26-03 recommend the city council determine that the project is within the scope of and adequately analyzed by the Parish Valley Commerce Center specific plan. I won't read all those numbers. Pursuant to secret guidelines 15162 further determin the project exempt from secret pursuant to 15061B and three common sense exemption and approved specific plan amendment 25-00003 to revert the land designation of a 2.9 acre parcel from future Paris Valley storm drain the light industrial within the Paris Valley Commerce Center specific plan based on the findings contained in the resolution. We have received a letter today, February 4, 2026, dated item 6B, SBA25. Uh, and his attached letter is from property owners Barbara Gardner, GP, Brian Gardner, GP, from BNB Gardner LP, expressing concerns with the proposed reversion from basin to light and dusty use. Staff is requesting the sign to be

continued off calendar to allow staff time to address the property owner's concerns. We still want to go through the process and find out if there's been any exparte communication, any drive by side visits, any the usual. I drive by this site also daily. I have none for me. I drive by the site frequently. Oh, I think so. Yes. Been by several times. Okay. And we we appreciate it. And I'm going to leave it to the Miss Monica with a presentation from the city and to clarify whatever the city is saying. Okay.

Good evening chairman and planning commissioners. Um so as you were mentioning um I will be presenting um the proposal for an SBA to be reverted um the land use designation for the Paris Valley Commerce Center specific plan. The site is located um on 2.9 acres. Um it is privately owned as mentioned by BNB Gardner LP. It is located along uh Perry Street 700 ft from Redlands Avenue as shown here on the plans and the surrounding uses are um it's vacant all around but it has a regional basin to the south and the east um and then the property across is vacant as well. So this is a site photo. Um, as you can see here, the site is located along the channel. Um, the drain way back over there. This is some view from Redlands Avenue. The site is located here in the yellow. And then you have a site from the back the bike path along the storm drain. So, a little bit of background on this. Um the project side is designated future Paris Valley storm drain um in the land use for the Paris Valley uh specific plan. Uh the site was intended for potential regional drainage facility needed as per the 1991 Riverside County flood control and water conservation districts. Uh the Paris Valley master drainage plan. Uh the plan's goal was to address future flooding during major rain events, accounts for uncertainty in the exact land and allows for city to determine whether the land will be required uh depending on drainage studies.

So, the Paris Valley Commerce Center specific plan provides a specific um section um that allows parcels to be reverted to the surrounding land use designations as determined and necessary by the engineering department. In 2022, the engineering department determined uh what would come or what would be the west basin. As you can see here dashed in the green, that's the area that was designated leaving the parcel um uh opened not necessary. So what's being proposed here is to go to the surrounding land use designations which is light industrial. So what's existing right now is the future uh Paris Valley storm drain and it will be converted to the surrounding use to the north which would be the light industrial. At this time, staff has uh received a letter as mentioned earlier from the owners with concerns regarding the specific plan amendment and the letter has been distributed to all of you. Um in light of this letter, staff is requesting continuence of calendar to address the property owner's concerns. Any questions?

No. Thank you very much. We will not have discussion. We'll open it up for public comment. Anyone willing my voice. Anyone wanting to address the public on this particular item and then only on this specific item is welcome to come to the podium and address it at this time. Okay, seeing none, we've closed the public comment portion and since we have been asked to everyone has got the letter, right?

Oh, okay. I I should have said um at this time we will not are going to have discussion but it's been requested by staff that we continue this off calendar to address the property owner's concerns and if that's the case then we need to have a motion it's going not going to be a date it's just off calendar. So anyone like to make a motion in light of this letter Commissioner Hammond I read the letter and I would uh make a motion for continuence off calendar for this item. Okay. And I'll second.

That's vice chairman shy moved and seconded by menz. Okay. Okay. Ah, there we go. Okay. Commissioner Menz, yes. Commissioner Lopez, yes. Commissioner Jimenez, yes. Vice Chair Shley, yes. Sher Hammond,

yes. with a vote five to zero. This motion is approved to be continue off calendar. Thank you very much. So noted at this time we move on to item seven public comments and anyone who wishes to address the planning commission regarding items not on the agenda may do so at this time. They must walk up to the podium and wait for the chairperson to recognize you. Speak clearly. Give your name. Spell your last name. We do not need address but it's for the recording in the minutes. Any speaker will given three minutes to address the planning commission. If there is no one in the public that wishes to address the planning commission. We will close the public comment portion and move on to item eight, business item, planning commission training, meeting protocols and procedures. A training session for planning commission members to review meeting protocols, procedures, best practices, and commissioner roles to ensure effective, orderly, and legally compliant meetings. Presented by Benjamin Jones, assistant city attorney. Good evening, Mr. Chair, members of the commission. I think we're putting the presentation up on the screen. If you could just bear with us.

Oh, there you go. Yeah.

Okay. So, you may recall from last year we did a uh training presentation. So, this is a new year, so we figured we'd do a refresher. Um, so this is just to update you uh and uh bring you all up to speed on planning commission meeting protocols and procedures. So please note to begin this is not AB1234 training which is required uh training per state law for planning commissioners to be conducted for two hours every two years. This presentation covers some of the topics that would be covered in AB1234 training but not all. Um and uh this is more focused on ensuring that the planning commission is able to function properly as a decision-making body and be efficient and uh run meetings um according to procedure. So um uh please contact the city clerk's office regarding satisfying AB 1234 training requirements which can be done via online courses if you have not already done so. So uh today's um training session will cover the topics on your screen. So the planning commission bylaws, Robert's rules of order, public hearing procedures, voting, the Brown Act, quasi judicial versus legislative matters, duties and decision-making, and conflicts of interest. So, first you may be aware that the planning commission has bylaws. Um, the bylaws are procedural rules that were adopted by the planning commission and can be changed by the planning commission. And the bylaws govern the conduct of all planning commission meetings and hearings. Um, under the bylaws, it uh discusses the types of meetings that the planning commission may hold, which is per the Brown Act. the the planning commission may hold regular meetings which are

regularly established meeting dates, times, and locations. So, first and third Wednesdays at 6:30 PM here. Uh, also, the planning commission may hold special meetings, which is uh meetings that may be called by the chair or a majority of the planning commission on its own motion or at the direction of the council. Um the difference is um regular meetings require 72-hour agenda posting, special meetings require 24 hours and uh special meetings have a different way of calling and noticing the meeting. Um and the the call and notice has to specify all the items that that will be considered. Um generally we don't have special meetings very often. We generally have regular meetings, but we could theoretically have special meetings. Um, also under the bylaws, uh, and Robert's rules, uh, a quorum is required to conduct business. So that means three of you have to be here in order to open and conduct a meeting. Um, if if ever three of you were not here at the same time, then we would need to adjourn the meeting basically and not conduct business until we have a quorum. Um, also all meetings are subject to the Brown Act, which we'll talk about in other slides, but requires generally that all meetings be open uh and transparent to the public. Um, and then Robert's rules um govern according to the bylaws, Robert's rules govern the conduct of commission meetings except where the bylaws supersede them. So in some cases, the bylaws have specific rules that override Robert's rules. Um and also according to the bylaws, meetings are to adjourn by 10 pm. Um the um the bylaws provide that the commission shall endeavor to endure adjourn its meetings not later than 10 p.m. If necessary, business not completed by 10 p.m. will be continued to the next regular or special meeting as determined by the planning commission. Also, according to the bylaws, it it

discusses the different types of meeting sessions or essentially the types of items that can be considered during a planning commission meeting. So, we have open sessions, which is what we're doing right now, where the items are considered out here in public. There can theoretically be closed sessions um where the Brown Act authorizes in certain cases uh in certain circumstances um uh public meetings to be held behind closed doors without public uh access. And that's for example where there's um significant exposure to litigation or to discuss pending litigation to discuss um real estate uh real property negotiations things of that nature. usually generally only happens at the city council, but could could theoretically happen at the planning commission, especially since the planning commission is the approval authority for certain entitlements. So, if there was ever a significant risk of litigation over a potential decision, it's something that could happen. And then, uh thirdly, there's study sessions uh the bylaws provide um for a different concept called study sessions where it is held as part of a regular or special meeting. Um but public testimony, it's not a public hearing item. So public testimony may be barred or limited and no action may be taken. It's just to take in information and study and provide direction but not take a formal action. Robert's rules of order are the rules that govern parliamentary procedure for not just the planning commission but everything from the the British Parliament to the US Congress to the state legislature to local city councils. Uh what I learned in preparing this was that Robert's rules of order were created by US Army officer Henry M. Robert who lived from 1837 to 1923. And he created a manual of parliamentary procedure to assist an assembly accomplish the work for which it was designed. The purpose of Robert's rules is to create an atmosphere where a meeting can

be conducted efficiently, fairly, orderly, and with engaged participation. also to define guidelines and provide clear rules for structured debate and to standardize the approach to group decision-making and discussions. So, Robert's rules of order establish the procedure for making motions. Um, the main thing to be aware of when it comes to making motions is there first of all, there's a mover and a seconder required under this under the planning commission's bylaws as well as Robert rules. And then three types of there are three different types of motions. There's the basic motion or the main motion which is essentially for example I I move that we approve staff's recommendation. Then there is a separate concept a separate type of motion called an amendment to a motion which would be for example I I move to amend the basic motion to add the requirement that the applicant incorporate the design features recommended in the agency report. There's two ways to do an amendment to a motion. It can either be a formal motion to amend which would be voted on and if it passes the result would be that the basic the main motion the the basic motion is amended and then you vote on that amended motion or it can be done as a friendly amendment where one commissioner says would you be open to a friendly amendment to change it for this in this manner and the other commissioner says yeah sure that's fine and then you don't have a vote you just deem it amended and then you vote on the main motion. Um thirdly, you have the concept of a substitute motion, which is where, for example, a commissioner makes a motion to approve staff's recommendation and then another commissioner moves to make a substitute motion that we reject staff's recommendation and accept the developer proposal as presented to us originally. So if that you would have to vote on that substitute motion first and if that carries, the motion is deemed substituted. It replaces the initial motion and then you vote on the substitute motion. So, it's a two-step process. Um, and but in some cases, a substitute motion that's the exact

opposite of the main motion is generally not considered to be in order. Um, there are other types of motions as well, uh, such as motion to limit debate, motion to adjurnn, motion to recess, motion to fix the time to adjurnn, motion to table. Um, there's a handy thing called the Robert's rules cheat sheet that I keep available. Um, and this is kind of an excerpt from it. You can see, um, Robert's rules are very detailed. They talk about for each kind of motion, can it be debated? Does it need a second? Can it can you interrupt the speaker? Can it be amended? What's the vote requirement? And so this has a breakdown for each type of motion of the characteristics of it. So, for example, um, the main motion, um, you cannot interrupt the speaker. It needs a second. It can be debated, it can be amended, and it requires a simple majority vote. But you can see that this changes with other certain types of motions. So, for example, um to amend a motion, well, that's the same as a main motion. Move an item to committee is the same except it can't be amended. Postpone an item cannot be amended. End debate cannot be amended. And you have another objection to procedure. a point of order that cannot be amended, cannot be debated, does not need a second, and it's a chair decision instead of majority request for information. There's no vote required. Um, also a motion to end debate. Anything that cuts off discussion generally requires a twothirds majority vote instead of simple majority. So, this is only a portion of Robert's rules cheat sheet, but this is just an example to show you how many different kinds of motions there are. And this all exists and is available to you as potential procedures to uh to do various things during the meeting.

So, Robert's rules also governs um the format for discussion of agenda items. What you see on the screen right now is actually from the planning commissioners handbook, which is a handy resource um for for all planning commissioners to consult. and it's laying out basically the public hearing procedure. I'm not going to go through it step by step because this is kind of a generic public hearing procedure. The planning commission actually has its own public hearing procedure per the bylaws which is now what you see on the screen. So the the public hearing procedure for this commission is first the chairperson asks about any recusals and exarty contacts. Then uh opens the public hearing takes a staff presentation. The commissioner the commissioners qu have questions for staff on the presentation. Then uh there's a presentation by the applicant or in the case of an appeal the appellant. Then public comment is taken. Then uh there's an opportunity for rebuttal by the applicant which is limited to um rebutting issues that were raised in the public comment. Then there's an opportunity for closing remarks by staff. Then the public hearing is closed and then the commission can discuss, entertain a motion, debate the motion and vote. I should mention on um closing the public hearing. Well, first of all, in terms of the time to speak um uh during the portion where the applicant and can give a presentation and the public comment, the bylaws state that the applicant shall be given sufficient time in the reasonable judgment of the chair to present their concern. So, they're not on a strict three-minute limit. All other persons normally will be will be limited to three minutes. The chair with majority concurrence may limit the

number of speakers or amount of testimony time on a particular issue in order to avoid repetitious or cumulative comments and to hear those interested in testifying except when necessary for immediate clarification of a particular point. No person shall be allowed to speak a second time until all others wishing to speak have had an opportunity to do so and then only at the discretion of the chair and with the concurrence of a majority of the commission. So after the um public hearing is closed, the bylaw or in terms of when to close the public hearing, the bylaws state that the chair may declare the public hearing is closed when commissioners indicate that they've heard all pertinent testimony. After the public hearing is closed, no additional testimony may be given unless the hearing is reopened. If necessary to permit additional testimony and evidence, public hearings may be reopened during commission deliberation at the meeting in which the public hearing was held. Such reopening requires majority consent of the commission. And it's worth noting here that the city council procedures, not the commission's procedures, but the city council's procedures provide that a hearing shall not be reopened unless all persons who spoke during the hearing are still present. And um as best practices, we uh strongly encourage to uh seek to avoid reopening the public hearing after it has been closed. Uh this prevents the possibility of neglecting uh those people who may no longer be present at the meeting uh but spoke during the hearing. uh as well as neglecting public comment on additional evidence that may be received after the hearing is reopened or expressing views on the project prior to conclusion of the public hearing because generally you want to avoid um expressing your views on the project until the public hearing is closed. But once you close the public hearing and you go into deliberation, you start expressing your views, then you reopen the public hearing, you're back into evidence gathering, you've already expressed your views. So these

are all just considerations to keep in mind for the future. Um the next point we wanted to cover is voting. So the general rule on voting is that a majority of the members present at the meeting can act and vote. Which means that for example if you had three of you here only two would carry. Two two affirmative votes out of the three would carry versus if you have five here like tonight you would need three to carry. If you had four here you would need three to carry. Um keep in mind that you have to have a quorum to do business. So you have to have three here to have a meeting in the first place. Um and if you have an abstension due to a conflict of interest, that person is not counted toward a quorum. So if you had five people here, but one of you recused due to a conflict of interest, it would be treated as a quorum of four and three of three of the four would be needed. Um or if you had two people recused due to conflict of interest and abstain, you'd have a quorum of three and then you'd only need two affirmative votes to carry. Um tie votes. The bylaws actually has an interesting provision on tie votes. Um it states that any tie vote constitutes as a denial of the motion and may be reconsidered by a motion offered by any member who voted on the matter. If there is no subsequent affirmative vote, the result is denial. If the matter involves an appeal, an affirmative vote does not occur. The result is that the decision appealed stands as decided by the decision maker from which the appeal was taken. So it it does allow for a subsequent vote, but if you have a tie vote, say there are four of you here and there's a motion to approve and there's a two- two vote, it says the result is denial. But I think what it really means is no action is taken because it gives the f it gives the opportunity for a further vote. Um, and only if there is no subsequent affirmative vote is the result denial.

So if you have the two two vote and then you continually cannot reach a decision then the result is denial. So abstensions the bylaws provide that except when a conflict exists an abstension is require and abstension is required by law every member of the commission who is present when a roll call is called shall vote for or against the question unless excused by a majority of the commissioners present prior to the calling of the role on such question. So, it discourages abstaining unless you have a conflict of interest. If you don't have a conflict of interest and you're present, you're encouraged to vote and you're required to vote yes or no unless a majority of the commission excuses you from doing so. And in terms of roll call voting, the bylaws provide that voting upon a motion may at the discretion of the chair and shall upon request of any commissioner be by roll call. When voting is not by roll call, the chair may in the absence of objection by any commissioner declare an item to be unanimously approved. And in terms of absentees, the bylaws provide that a commissioner who is absent from any portion of a hearing conducted by the commission may vote on the matter at the time it is acted upon, provided that he or she has either reviewed the approved minutes of the hearing or listened to the tape recording or the relevant portion. and if he or she has examined the staff report and evidence presented during the portion of the hearing from which he or she was absent. In such a case, that commissioner shall state for the record that he or she is familiar with the record and with the evidence presented at the hearing. As the same is true for the minutes as well. If you if you were absent from a meeting, normally you would abstain, but technically you don't have to abstain as long as you have reviewed the the the meeting materials that from the meeting that you missed.

So the next uh topic is the Brown Act and feel free to stop me if you have any questions or I can take questions at the end. Um for the Brown Act for the next topic is the Brown Act which is the open meeting law and it provides that all meetings of state and local legislative bodies and advisory bodies are are to be open and public. This includes meetings of the planning commission. The purpose is to facilitate public participation and prevent secret decisions by legislative bodies. The photo that you see on the screen is the namesake of the law, Ralph M. Brown. Some people may think it's Jerry Brown, but the governor, but it was Ralph M. Brown who was a former California assembly member and judge who authored the act and is is also known as a sunshine law. Um if you hear the term sunshine law, the Brown Act is a type of sunshine law because it's intended to cast transparency and light onto meetings and uh actions of government agencies. So um the Brown Act uh has a definition of meeting which generally refers to um a majority of the of the members of the commission discussing, deliberating or taking action upon any item that's within their jurisdiction. Um if a meeting occurs, it must be open in public and an agenda must be posted in accordance with the Brown Act. The Brown Act also has a serial meeting prohibition which provides that a majority of the members shall not outside a meeting use a series of communications of any kind directly or through intermediaries to discuss, deliberate or take action on any item of business. This can occur through in-person contacts, technological contacts such as text, email, or social media, or via intermediaries. Um, for this reason, emails to the group, if you're ever emailing the commission as a whole, uh, should say, "Please do not reply to all and should not include mention of any position or commitment." So, generally, the commissioner shouldn't be emailing the

the whole commission about items of business, but if you see staff may email the commission as a whole about something, um, maybe to send out the agenda, for example, and may say, "Please, please do not reply to all so that you don't have this conversation going on." Um the various types of um serial meetings are the chain they're chain hub and spoke and intermediary. Chain is where member A speaks with member B member B speaks with member C on the same topic etc for a majority of the commissioners resulting in majority discussion deliberation or action. Hub and spoke is where member A speaks with member B, then member A speaks with member C on the same topic, then member A speaks with member D, resulting in majority discussion, deliberation or action. An intermediary is where the agency manager such as the planning manager speaks with member A, then member B, then member C, and uh separately answers questions and shares the commissioner's views between them. Um but um and so that if they that can create a meeting by just telling the commissioners what each of them said. Um attendance of a majority of the commissioners at social gatherings, conferences or other public meetings is permitted if business is not discussed. So uh the Brown Act has a special rule in terms of social media. Um, a commissioner may use social media to answer questions and provide the public with information. However, a commissioner may not respond directly to another commissioner's social media post regarding a matter that is within the jurisdiction of the commission. And this applies to any two commissioners where normally the Brown Act prohibits meetings between what would be three commissioners, a majority, but the social media rule applies to any two. So, if one commissioner posts something on social media about a matter that's within the commission's jurisdiction and

the and a second commissioner either responds to that, even likes that, or um uses emojis, comments on it, anything like that, that would actually be a violation of a specific provision of the Brown Act. So on agendas, as I touched on earlier, for regular meetings, the agenda must be posted 72 hours before the meeting. The agenda must contain a general description of each matter to be transacted or discussed. must provide an opportunity for public comment and no discussion or action on any matter that is not on the the agenda is allowed except that commissioners may briefly respond to statements or questions from the public. Ask questions for clarification, make a brief announcement or make a brief report on the commissioner's own activities. Provide reference to staff or other resources for factual information. request staff to report on any matter at a later meeting or direct staff to place a matter on a future agenda. There is also uh an exception in the Brown Act that allows um discussion and action on an item that does not appear on the posted agenda if immediate action is necessary. The necessity is determined by the commission if the commission establishes by a twothirds vote of the members present at the meeting or a unanimous vote if less than twothirds of the members are present. That both of the following requirements exist. The need exists to take action immediately and the need for action came to the attention of the local agency after the agenda was posted. So this is what's called a sub a subsequent need item. What some people refer to it as that. So the idea is okay there was not an item on the agenda but we have an immediate need to discuss something it came to the light came to the attention

of the city after the agenda and so therefore if a motion is made with those findings uh an item can be added to the agenda on the floor and then it can be um discussed and acted upon. The Brown Act uh does provide uh violations for uh remedies for violations, including that any interested person may demand that the commission declare an action taken in violation of the Brown Act to be void and cure the defect within either 30 or 90 days of the violation depending on the circumstances. And then if the if the city fails to cure the violation, the person can then sue for invalidation of the action. Um, also the city may be required to pay attorneys fees to the prevailing party in such an action and criminal liability is possible for for members attending meetings with intent to deprive the public of information. So this slide now we're moving to a slightly different topic which is the nature of items that come before the commission. And this is a really important piece. So basically uh the items that will come before the commission will generally fall into one of two categories. One is quasi judicial matters and the other is legislative matters. Legislative matters relate to making laws or rules of general applicability. So if you are for example looking at an amendment to your general plan that's in a vacuum. It's not a development project that's proposing it. It's just the city initiated a general plan amendment is looking to update its general plan or looking to update its specific plans or looking to update its zoning code. Those purely legislative matters that are just making local laws and and updating them, changing them, those are legislative matters versus quasi judicial matters which is also known as adjudicative or administrative

matters relate to applying existing rules to individual development projects that are being considered for approval, conditional approval or denial. So when you have a development project in front of you, you're considering granting a conditional use permit, development plan review. That is a quasi judicial matter. And the reason why this is important is because procedural due process requirements, which is a constitutional requirement, apply to quasi judicial matters, not legislative matters. So that means um if you have a legislative matter, you don't need to be as concerned about, for example, expressing your opinion on the matter before the public hearing is closed. That concern doesn't apply for a legislative matter because you don't have an applicant in front of you who's entitled to a fair hearing. When you have a quasi judicial matter, you have an applicant in front of you who's entitled to due process, which includes a fair hearing. Due process in entails the the right to reasonable advanced notice or reasonable opportunity to be heard, fair treatment of that applicant with other applicants that are similarly situated to them and impartial decision makers. Commissioners must strive for impartiality and remain unaffected by personal matters. So along those same due process lines, this creates certain duties and decision-making for the commissioners. Due process requires a fair hearing for quasi judicial matters. This means commissioners should not express their opinion before the hearing. The hearing is for solely the purpose of gathering evidence, taking testimony, and deliberation and decision only occurs after the public hearing is closed. The commission must base its decision on whether the required findings can be made from the evidence presented. This is known as a substantial evidence test.

So in general um whenever you're making a decision on a development project the decision has to be in writing which is why a resolution is required and it has to be based on findings that the the decision in the resolution is based on the findings and generally the the municipal code will state what the required findings are. So in order to approve a certain type of a permit, you have to make certain findings that are required in the affirmative. And in order to make those findings, those findings have to be supported by substantial evidence in the record, which means the information that's that's presented to you either in the staff report, the attachments, the studies, the things that support that and as well as the the testimony that's given during the hearing. So that's the basis for you to make the findings. The findings bridge the analytical gap between the evidence that's in the record and the conclusion you make and ultimately the conclusion you make is the approval or whatever the decision is that is memorialized in the resolution. Another type of another duty uh in decision-m is to avoid bias. What is bias? It is prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person or group compared with another. There are three types of bias. uh the first is personal interest in the a personal interest in the decision's outcome. Uh the second is a personal bias and the third is a factual bias. So just because there is no financial interest involved does not necessarily mean there is no conflict of interest or no obligation to re refrain from participating in in a decision. So um examples of an example of bias where there was no uh financial interest involved was the case of I believe it was Nasha versus city of Los Angeles. Yeah. Which is where um there was a city

of Los Angeles planning commissioner who had authored an article criticizing a project in a neighborhood newsletter. um you know, prior to the that project coming before the commission and the commissioner then participated and voted on the project. And regardless of whether that's a yes vote or a no vote, uh the court held that that um expressing of sentiment against the project publicly prior to um the public hearing was enough to um show an unacceptable probability of personal bias that um resulted in the decision being invalidated and um it tainted the decision-making process of the city. Um so as mentioned in the last slide the last um type of bias is factual bias. Exparte contacts is an example of factual bias. Um exparte means you get information from the outside or from one side that's not necessarily shared in the decision-m arena. So um receipt of information outside the quasi judicial process is an exarty contact. Um, so what you want to do here is avoid initiating contact uh, avoid extra meeting contacts um, with people that may be looking to talk to you about a project um, applicants and things of that nature. What to do if you are approached? You could say I am not permitted to discuss this issue outside of the hearing because it can create uh, factual bias if not adhered to. The idea is that we want every commissioner to have the same information available to them and to base their decision on the same information and for commissioners not to base their decision on information that was obtained outside of this arena. So all of the information that you're basing the decision on should be presented in this arena and it and you all should have the same equal information. If you have information

that you gained from outside of this arena, you would want to state it on the record so that everyone else has the benefit of that information. Another type of conflict of interest is actually two separate categories that were combined in this slide. Incompatible activities and incompatible offices. So incompatible activities is a section of the government code section 1126 that provides that a commissioner may not engage in any employment activity or enterprise for compensation that is inconsistent, incompatible or in conflict with his or her duties as a commissioner. Um so a typical example of this is someone who is already an employee of an agency and then assumes a public office with that agency. So subject to certain limited exemptions, an employee of a local agency may not be sworn in into office as an elected or appointed officer of that agency unless they resign as an employee. If the employee does not resign, the the employment will automatically terminate on their being sworn into office. And local agencies may adopt their own rules on incompatible activities and include provisions to give notice of the determination of prohibited activities. um and of any discipline disciplinary action to be taken for engaging in prohibited activities and for the appeal. So it a lot of it does relate to employment city staff who's employed and what they can do in terms of taking public offices. The second uh category here is incompatible offices which provides that a commissioner may not hold two public offices where any significant clash of duties exist between the office. So under the the traditional common law rule, a public office off officer who is appointed or elected to another public

office and enters the duties of the second office automatically vacates the first office if the two offices are incompatible. that offices are incompatible if any significant clash of duties exists between them. If the if the dual office holdings would be improper for reasons of public policy or if either officer exercises a supervisory auditory or removal power over the other. Um and I have some examples of incompatible offices based on case law and attorney general opinions. uh offices of the offices of mayor of a city and director of a water replenishment district representing a division encompassing the city. Let's just say that occurred in another city that I am familiar with. If you look at the case law, the name of the case, not not this city, a different city. Um offices of city council member and director of a water reclamation district wholly encompassing the city. That's the same as the first one. It's just the first one was from a published court case and the other the other one was from an attorney general opinion. Um, offices of city council member and county planning commissioner are incompatible. Offices of city council member and a schoolboard member. Offices of city planning commissioner and county planning commissioner. Offices of deputy sheriff and county supervisor. offices of city council member and water district director and mayor and members of transportation authority and highspeed rail authority. So um conflicts of interest under the political reform act. We've been talking about other types of conflict of interest. The political reform act governs financial conflicts of interest. So this was enacted in 1974 and um is administered by the FPPPC and they have

their own regulations that implement this. The purpose is to protect public trust, fairness and decision-m and prevent governmental decision-m that is motivated by personal financial gain. The basic rule is that you may not participate in a decision if your financial interests are affected by the decision. There's a four-step test to determine whether a commissioner has a a disqualifying conflict of interest. The first step of the test is whether it is re you ask whether it is reasonably foreseeable that a commission decision will have a financial effect on the commissioner's financial interests. Types of financial interest that a commissioner may have include an investment in a business entity, a source of income, a real property interest, a source of gifts or personal finances. The step the second step of the process is will the reasonably if there is a reasonably foreseeable if it is reasonably foreseeable that a commission decision will have a financial effect is that reason will that reasonably foreseeable financial effect be material. So is it enough of a financial effect? Um the main uh rule that you're probably familiar with here in terms of what's considered material is in the context of real property. So, if you own real property, this doesn't really apply if you lease real property, but if you own real property, um the question as to whether you're you have a reason, so if there's a a development project that's near real property that you own, you probably have a reasonably foreseeable financial effect, but the question is whether it's material. So if the uh real property that you own is within 500 ft of the property that is the subject of the development project that comes before the commission then materiality is presumed which means you generally must recuse yourself from the decision-making process. If the property

that you own is between 5,000 500 and 1,000 feet from the subject property of the development project, then you must not participate in the decision if it would change your properties either your property's development potential, income producing potential, highest and best use, or the character of your property by substantially altering traffic levels, intensity of use, parking view, privacy, noise levels, or air quality. or if it would affect your property's market value. And if your property is more than 1,000 ft from the property that is the subject of the development project, then it's presumed that the interest is immaterial, meaning generally no recusal required unless there's extenduating circumstances that can be shown to override that. Steps three and four of the FPPC four-part test. Step three is you ask is the re So now now you've established that you have a reasonably foreseeable material financial effect involved. So you're asking is the reasonably foreseeable material financial effect of the decision on the commissioner's financial interest indistinguishable from its effect on the public generally? If so, there's no conflict of interest. The effect is indistinguishable from the effect on the public generally if a significant segment of the public is affected by the decision and the effect on the commissioner's financial interest is not unique. So if everyone in the city has the same exact the same it's the same effect on everyone else in the city not just the commissioner then um the defect the uh the effect is indistinguishable from the effect on the public generally. So you would not need to recuse under step four. If the effect is not indistinguishable from the public generally then um the commissioner has a disqualifying conflict of interest and that would mean that the commissioner may not make participate in making or

attempt to use his or her official position to influence the governmental decision. However, there is an exception even where the conflict exists. There is an exception for for legally required participation which some people refer to as the rule of necessity and this exists if there is no alternative source of decision. The conflict must still be disclosed on the record and the smallest possible number of commissioners with conflicts that are legally required for the decision to be made must participate. A typical example is when a majority of the members majority of the commissioners each have a financial interest in a particular decision and the body is unable to assemble a quorum. The fact that a vote is needed to break a tie does not constitute legally required participation. So, one one example of this that I like to think of is if you have certain cities that have very low populations and 90% 95% of the city is industrial and you have one residential tract, one big residential tract where all of the there's maybe there may be 500 or a thousand people in the entire city that live in the city. Um, and you happen to have a development project that's smack in the middle of that residential tract. So, all of the commissioners live within 500 ft or 1,000 ft and it's going to affect the value of their property. All the commissioners have a conflict of interest. There's no way they could ever make a decision. So, the rule of necessity kicks in and conflicts can be um put aside and that in order to allow a decision to be made, but the minimum number, say there was a commission of five and they all had that conflict, only the minimum number necessary to render a decision can participate. So three would you would essentially draw straws and determine the three that are going to participate. The other two would still sit it out and the three that participate would still disclose that conflict on the record but then they would go ahead and participate due to the rule of necessity. If you had a situation where it was a two two tie for

meeting after meeting after meeting on a certain project and you needed to break the tie, the rule of necessity would not kick in as a way to break the tie. You you cannot use the rule of necessity to break ties. Conflict of interest can be pres pre prevented and are prevented in two ways. Disclosure and disqualification. Disclosure. The purpose of this is to alert public officers of their personal interests that might be affected in performing their duties. This the most common way this is done is by requiring commissioners to file a form 700 which is a statement of economic interest with the FPPC. This is required to be filed annually and also within 30 days of taking or leaving office. And the form 700 is a public record. Once you file it with the FPC, it's public. The second way conflicts are prevented is by disqualification. Not voting on the decision is not enough. The commissioner may not make participate in or influence the decision. So, you would need to not attempt to influence the decision in any way, including premeating discussions with staff or colleagues. Um, you would also need to publicly identify the financial interest or potential conflict of interest while at the meeting and then leave the room until after the discussion vote or any other disposition of the matter. And as mentioned, if disqualified due to a conflict of interest, you are not counted toward a quorum. Um, mere existence of a conflict does not imply wrongdoing and unless you don't disqualify yourself when you should. Parts two and three that you see on the screen right now are generally referred to as recusal. Um, if you're absent from the meeting at which you have a conflict, then parts two and three above do not apply, but part one still does, which means you still have to refrain from attempting to influence the decision in any way, including by discussions prior to the

meeting. And um a commission a commissioner who has recused himself or herself can still attend the meeting as a member of the public and provide public comment. Violations for conflict of interest include what you see on the screen. Administrative proceedings or civil actions for fines or penalties brought by the FPPC. Civil actions to remedy violations brought by uh members of the which can be brought by members of the public and local agencies. Knowing and willful violations constitute a misdemeanor which can be prosecuted by the DA or attorney general. Loss then less legally but loss of reputation can occur. family impacts and then uh just the fact that a prosecution or an enforcement action is being brought for uh a conflict of interest under the political reform act does not mean that there couldn't also be criminal liability under other laws such as for bribery, extortion or embezzlement. So resources um are provided by the FPPC in regards to avoiding conflicts of interest, avoiding disqualifying conflicts of interest. Um it it is the individual responsibility of each commissioner to avoid conflicts, but resources are available to help. Resources offered by the FPPC include informal assistance at 866 ask FPPPC, reviewing materials on fpppc.ca.gov. There's a lot of helpful materials on their website. And then requesting a formal written advice letter from the FPPC is also an option. Good faith reliance on a formal advice letter from the FPPC can provide a commissioner with protection from liability. Also, the city attorney is a resource for um advice on conflicts of interest. The city attorney as the legal as the city's legal adviser can provide legal

opinion on questions regarding potential conflicts of commissioners. This is a very factintensive inquiry. So it will it will be determined and will depend on the facts at hand. Um, you're encouraged to submit questions in writing to the city attorney as early as possible. And last minute conflict of interest in conflict of interest inquiries will usually result in conservative advice that the member should announce conflict and disqualify himself or herself. Reliance on an opinion from the city attorney does not provide protection from liability unlike a uh an FPPC formal advice letter. But this device, this advice can be rendered much more quickly and more often than not following it will help avoid adverse consequences to the city as far as the the integrity of the decision as well as for the commissioner. Remember that the law sets minimum standards for ethical behavior. It's your choice how high you want to set your sights above these minimum requirements of the law. Thank you for your service. And uh if for any of you who do not have it already, I'm happy to send you a copy of the planning commissioners handbook, which is a League of California Cities publication in a great overall resource for all planning commissioners. And uh thank you and I'm happy to take any questions.

Thank you very much for that presentation. We're still alive, so we didn't give you the opportunity. Um, obviously if there are any questions because I do have a few, but of course I'm going to have, but anything you'd like to uh Thank you, Ben, for that presentation. Uh, I just have one question, but it's more like a hypothetical. Um, um, does the Brown Act serial meetings, does that, uh, apply for city council as well? So, like if if you're talking to multiple city council members? Mhm. It does. Yes. Yeah, definitely.

Okay. So if if city council member A talked to city council member B and shared their view on it like how they are going to vote on something for example and then city council member B talks to city council member C and says you know I spoke with council member A and they said they were going to vote in favor of this. I'm going to vote in favor too. What about you? And then commissioner uh council member C says oh yeah I'm going to vote in favor of that. So now they've communicated a majority of them have agreed that they're going to vote yes on something outside of public meeting. So that would be a Brown Act serial meeting violation, but it can also occur via text message, email, social media, anything, any form. Okay, thank you so much.

Okay, I could have let you off that easy. Okay. Um, I'm going to go to bylaws meetings. Okay, we have open sessions, closed sessions, and then we have study sessions. Obviously, I don't remember what page this is. Two, page two. Yeah, slide five or something. Um, and this is one I'm going to start with. We're talking study sessions or training sessions. the obviously with open sessions you have to have the 72 hours and we don't have special sessions at city council uh we're not going to have I'm just tell you now uh study sessions if we want to have a training or something like that do we need any kind of advanced notice 7224 because it doesn't seem like you have a study session this could be a study session where we have to announce this as well as

this is kind of like a study session and so it's placed on the regular meeting agenda and the agenda is posted 72 hours in advance if it was separate and you just wanted a study session. We want to go over that. You could call a Well, you could call a special meeting and have a study session. It could be a special meeting just to have the study session or you could just add a study session to a regular meeting agenda that has other items or that only has that item. But would it need a requirement of the pre-posting of 72 hours or 24 if it's a study session? Yes. Yeah. Because it has to be on the agenda. Mhm.

It's just like any other item to to transact to discuss an item of business outside of that subsequent need item exemption. Um you you can't really discuss items including study session items without them being list on the agenda. So if if it's a regular meeting, that's a 72-hour agenda posting requirement. If it's a special meeting, 24 hours. Okay. So in all cases, even if it's just a tour as a city, you still have to post that and have their Yeah. So if you were to go on a group tour of a facility that you might eventually make a decision on something just generally like we do we just go around the city and drive and

Yeah. So if if it's within the jurisdiction of the commission like it's relevant to the commissioner's duties

uh and you're going on a tour together, it would probably be best safest to agendaize a a special meeting for that assuming it wasn't at the regular meeting time. And then um it would be kind of you know interesting because it's you know how would you how would you logistically do that you know but um certainly you can have uh meetings at different locations. If it's a special meeting you can have the meeting at a coffee shop you know but the thing is you have to allow like that that location has to be publicly noticed and public comment has to be kind of allowed. The members of the public have to be able to access that and provide public comment at that site. So, I've seen it done where, you know, a commission uh will have a meeting at like a hotel in like a hotel conference room or even like a lunch meeting and they're like eating lunch at the table in, you know, like a a dining area of a of a hotel or something. And that's fine as long as you agendaize it that way and the public can access that area.

The safe thing to do is agenda, which we do all the time. Uh, not if we're going to Las Vegas or something. We're not going to tell them that. No, just kid. Just kidding. I think it's supposed to be within the jurisdiction of the city.

Enough with the legal stuff. Okay. Um, I'm going to go to page six. And this is because of 20ome years on this thing. Um, social media. And this is another major issue. Um, yeah, I know that it's okay to go to social media. Uh, I would disagree that any commissioner should be involved in answering anything on social media. Period. If I'm city attorney, I would say don't do it. I'm not even going to ask you. Just don't do it. We've had issues in the past and that's all I'm going to say. Um, you put the city in jeopardy when you go on social media and you start talking about issues. I hate this. I hate that. Now it becomes documented evidence that you hate it. And guess what? Here it comes before the planning commission. So I have I know it may be okay to talk but just answering any pro even answering anything. I would pro just from experience not to do it because you set yourself up for potential legal problems later on and developers do look at this stuff and do find out that oh you don't like this you don't like that then they're sitting in front of you. So it has happened in this city. So, I'm just saying it's not some theoretical. It's happened. Uh, and it

judicial items where it's a development project that's coming before the commission. You would not want to post on social media anything about I'm in favor of the project. The project is I love how the project looks. It's good. I don't like it. Like, you wouldn't. And so, that's a separate because that's the the bias issue that we discussed in another slide. That's a due process issue. That is a separate standalone legal issue that you have to be aware of. This what's on the screen is just a specific Brown Act provision that says, you know, if a commissioner posts on social media about something that is within the board's jurisdiction, another commissioner can't respond to that. So, they're two different requirements that both need to be complied with and the bias requirement applies even if it's just one person involved.

And and I think too in the bias in that you let's just say we don't like retail fast food. I'm not going to say anybody says it here. and I don't like them blah blah blah and we're gonna vote down and then here they come before you and you've already put it on Facebook city Facebook now you're a city that I'm against this and against industrial blah blah blah but just on Facebook

as a commissioner I'm not talking about from the public as commissioner and you're answering and responding it's one thing to have the feeling but to respond you can get into issues with that uh LA does whatever they want to do that's why they're so corrupt okay I left there but uh it's really dangerous slope to go down And that's why I don't have anything. You're never going to see my name on any of the stuff or f nothing because I don't want to take that chance. But even I think also too um the Brown Act underneath there I it talks about briefly respond to the public. I would I said this at the League of California cities with 300 people that said I don't talk to anybody. Period. No response to the public. They start talking and talk sit down. If you respond as one of them did, they got in trouble.

Are you referring to this slide? Yes. And so you you we don't respond to statements or we just don't do it. The council tends not to do it. You want have discussion later, that's one thing, but if you do it at that time, it's dangerous territory. Yeah. So you'll see a lot of times a member of the public will come up to this podium and start asking you questions. But it's not a question and answer session. So you know, you can say, you know, please get staff's card. Staff will help you out. Or, you know, we'll look into that. We'll, you know, maybe something we'll address it later. But yeah, you don't get into a prolonged back and forth with them. Um, and you let them know that it's not they can't expect to come up here, ask you questions, and get responses

because when we went to the league and the the guy got into it, I don't know what city that was, was San Rosa. It was a city and it was on videotape. He's going back and forth the public and they're saying and the chairman's just sitting there go say, "Oh yeah, why are you getting into it with a guy back and forth?" and they use that as example of their meetings. That's the one you would not want to use, right? But he's going back and forth and nobody said anything. He's just going back and forth. Oh, blah blah blah. I don't like this. Why would you do that?

And then and it can also turn into something even worse, which is after the back and forth discussion that is out of order. Then they it can lead to the commission says, "Oh, let's let's take this action." And they or or council and they decide, you know, let's take some action that was not agendaized. and they just they just spontaneously take some action dur purport to take some action during the meeting based on that exchange. And so it needs to be cut off that a this is not on the agenda and b this is not a question and answer period

and you just have to withhold the desire to want to get into the back and forth. But you open that you know as you say Pandora's box and once you go down that street that's I can't have been here this long if I didn't understand this stuff. You can't last this long if you don't know this. So, it's impossible. You, you know, you got to watch. It doesn't have to be perfect, but there's some things you just have to say the appearance of it, just don't do it. It may be legally right to do it. They may be okay, but they just don't do it. Like meeting with developers prior. I'm not going to do it. Now, let me ask you this question though. It's different for planning commission because all this is planning commission, but if you are a person that's an elected official, you can meet with constituents. You can meet with people, right? So some things would seem like they apply for commissioners. I'm like it's a little more strict, but if I'm an elected official in area, I can meet with a developer so and so so and so on and it's not always disclosed, right? So you can talk with people. It seems like there's a difference there and being elected versus being a commissioner.

Well, it's the same Brown Act rules that apply to the council and the commission. The only thing I'll say is that the city council considers a lot of items that are not development projects that don't necessarily have an applicant with a due process right to fair decision-m where the public officials are not supposed to express their views on it until after the public hearing. So, a lot of the city council items it, you know, there's no concern of, you know, getting information outside the public hearing that's not shared with the other commissioners or expressing their views on a project before the public hearing is closed because it's not a uh quasi judicial due process development project type of item. They consider so many other types of items that only a small percentage of their items are of that nature. Whereas for the commission, it's the majority of your items are of that nature. They're either that or they're the legislative items. But the same Brown Act rules apply in terms of avoiding serial meetings and things of that nature. That that same stuff applies. So if a council member talked to a developer and tells the developer, I'm going to vote in favor of your project. And then the de the developer talks to the second council member and says, "That first council member told me they're going to vote in favor of my project. Are you going to vote in favor of my project?" And that council member says, "Yes, I'm going to vote in favor of your project." Then that developer goes to the third council member and says, "Are you going to vote in favor of my project? Commissioners A and B already told me they are." And then that third council member says, "Yes, I'm going to vote in favor of your project." And and the developer shares those, you know, what those council members told each other. The those council members, a majority of them now know how a majority of the council is going to vote without that having occurred in a public meeting. So that's a Brown Act violation

just as it would be with the commission. I my my only personal question is I thought there might it would probably be more leeway if you were an elected official because you have constituents you have to talk to you have business owners you have to talk to you have chamber of commerce you have to talk to things that they're not coming before them with planning design so I think that if you ran for it you'd have more leeway and more discretion to talk to people and and I know the serial thing applies to all but I just thought that you would at least you know if I ran for because I would have more leeway when it comes to development projects the rules are the same. The realities may be different, but the rules as far as bias and the Brown Act that we covered in this are the same.

Now, uh I think lastly, um if you um and you mentioned some good examples when it comes to conflict of interest, incompatible activities and offices. Um, if you are on Okay. If you're on a city planning commission, but then you're on a county planning commission. Mhm. In the county, how is that a conflict? You're you're on the the city planning commission and also the Riverside County Planning Commission. That those would be two incompatible offices

because case law has demonstrated it's either a case or attorney general opinion that has specifically held that. that's not based on just looking at, you know, the general um, you know, theory behind it and and speculating us. That's actually a decision that's been made. Um, and I can try to find the citation for that. So for that one, offices of city planning commissioner and county planning commissioner according to an attorney general opinion from 1983. They determined that that was

because I think the idea is that there can be conflicting duties between the two positions because the county the city is within the county. So there's kind of like overlapping jurisdiction. and a decision of the city, a decision that the commissioner is required to make to fulfill their duties for the city could could uh run a foul of their duties as a commissioner to the county or vice versa. I wonder if that would apply if you're in a school board. It does apply to the school board as well. Oh, okay. Wow. Is that a school board or just would they tell you that for the school board as well? Yeah, there was um

Wow. office of city council member and a school board member also according to an attorney general opinion from 1982. So happy to send those to you if you want. Talk to be those corrupt eras 1980s and they have all the all the rules came out of the 80s. Isn't that amazing? And I came out of the 80s. How come I'm not corrupt? I just ask this question. Yeah, I know. I finished and I was in the very city was talking one of the cities that you were talking about that had the low number of residents. Okay. Closely describes where I worked in the 80s too. Yeah. 90 people were residents. 90. Okay. That's all I'll say. Everything was a conflict.

That makes for some interesting situations. Yeah. Everything was a conflict. Everybody had every last They all had conflicts. There's only one place in the houses. But anyway, um I think that pretty much answers for me. I think um the only other issue, and this goes for any of us that might be involved. I think we want to clarify um if a person is you know where I'm going with this. If a person is recusing themselves, and this is this is one of those shake and bake things, um to leave the room because we've all had to do it entirely. and you've said that it's okay to come back and act as a member of the public and as a resident. I have a problem with that.

But if I'm not saying it's not legal, I'm just saying to come back and I'm sitting on here. I'm going to sit out there and we did it once. I think I did it once 20 years ago. There was no city attorney in the room, but it's it could potentially be a problem um if that person is speaking. So, you know, if I'm vehemently against it, known for it, if I could and I've been had recused on many issues where I wanted to come back and talk, you know, and I just didn't do it because it might get emotional, you know, but I want to make sure it's complete, unbiased. And now, is that something that is one of those shady areas that

So, it has to do with the first amendment rights. Every person has first amendment rights to express their views and free speech and that kind of thing. So what would happen is the commissioner who has the conflict of interest when the item is called would disclose the conflict recuse themselves leave the dis but then if they so choose to exercise their first amendment rights as a member of the public they would come to the podium and speak as a member of the public but the nature of those comments would be as a member of the public speaking as their personal views and they would not be able to say from the podium like for example they wouldn't be able to participate in the deliberation of the commission from the podium them they they would just be limited to their threeminut public comment and it wouldn't be I think we as the commission should do this or it's it would be the exact same nature as a person who's a member of the public who comes up here gives their three-minute public comment in their personal capacity the other commissioners would know they're speaking they're only permitted to speak in their personal capacity not as a commissioner and they're not um permitted to um engage in the deliberation or the discussion it's just the introduction of evidence or testimony into the public as part of the public hearing. Um, so that's that's how the rule would shake out.

Yeah, that's what I thought because we we've had over the years differing opinions, different city attorneys. They were very strict. Uh, you better leave literally almost the building. I said, "What?" Then and we don't even want to see your face. Don't even think about it. And then now we say, "Well, you know, if oh, first amendment, but no, no, no, no. We don't want to see you inside the room." I waited for to leave. You know, you will leave and we better not see you

because if the person was was, you know, transparently trying to speak still in their capacity as a commissioner or a council member, like they came up here, but they were still, you could tell they weren't speaking as a member of the public. They're still speaking more like a a commissioner or council member. Then you could say, "No, you're not exercising your First Amendment rights. You're trying to participate as a commissioner from the podium with a conflict of interest, so you have to go." I believe the bylaws though state this specific um piece about um speaking as a member of the public, but I can double check that if you'd like.

Okay, we may. Yeah, that that's just one of those areas. I won't prolong it. That's just one of those areas where you're like because it happens, you know, you own a business, you own a property, such and such when you really, you know, vehicle agree or disagree with it and you you leave the room which you leave the room, but then you're allowed to come back. It's kind of hard not to notice that you've been sitting on a diet here. So, that's one of the reasons I just choose not to do it. I just choose do not to do a lot of things, but I'm just not going to do it even though I may have a lot to say because I just don't want that appearance of

Yeah, it's not a not a great look, you know, depending on the nature of the comments from the podium. Um and um it could certainly create a lasting bias where if if it ever goes to council, comes back to commission and your initial conflict goes away, you still have you would be permanently precluded because now you've expressed your bias. So not ideal. Well, that was my own. You guys have any guys are going easy on the guy? It must be late. Very thorough. Very thorough. No, it's very thorough. We appreciate it. Bore you to death.

Thought he's going to beat us up. He's taking it real easy. No, we appreciate it. And it's always good to have a refresher. You know, you there's no such thing as you always know what you always have to get reressure things because you just take for granted things. But, you know, and things change, laws can change over time, and I think it's good to get a refresher once a year. So, I appreciate it. Just make sure staff obeyss the rules, too. No, no, I'm just kidding. Patricia's going, "Not us, not me." No, it's you guys, too. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Very informative. What is with these? Okay.

Yeah, I'm getting all these deletions from emails. Okay. We move to item nine, commission updates and announcements. Okay. Uh so I attended the uh grand opening of the downtown skills training and uh job placement center. Um it was a a great turnout. It was a great event. Um it was nice seeing all the local leaders and um and hearing how um how the the skills center came to be and like as far as funding and and all the planning, the years of uh of planning that that was behind it. Um uh me and Chair Hammond, we took a self-guided tour around the facility and it was a beautiful facility. Um and it was already equipped with a lot of uh equipment and like the desks and chairs. So it looked like it was ready to go for for a class. Um so I was happy to attend that and I'm looking forward to hopefully the city bringing more uh trade schools to the to the city so so that people could stay here and actually like uh work towards building careers out here. So I'm just happy to be a part of that. I was really sad to miss it, but I was really happy to hear how it all came out and and I'm really looking forward to it. Um, as it like starts being up and and moving. I don't have any announcements, but I did want to say thank you to Benjamin for the presentation. I know we are a very very stressful bunch up here.

Um,

yeah, never. But, um, thank you. It was very thorough and very um informative. So, thank you. I was super sad to miss the grand opening, too. I had a meeting that I could not reschedule. I did go back and I was creeping in looking at all the pictures and seeing everything. Super excited. But I echo what Commissioner um Lopez is saying, having more of a partnership with local businesses and the high schools especially. There's a lot of CTE pathways where they start the programs at the high school, they get a certain certification and then continuing here and just making sure that we have multiple opportunities for our youth and even adults. Sometimes we have change of careers as adults. Things don't always work out the way you want or or we want to explore something new. So having that opportunity available is great because not everybody's going to go to a four-year college. Not everybody's going to go get an AA, but having something that is tangible that you can go and and do. I mean, I would want to go learn just to get certified just because it sounds interesting to learn something new and and take the time to do that. So so sad that we missed it. Um, looking forward to everything that is coming in to our city like Dutch Bros. My daughter was in Florida when she came back and she saw the harvest landing. Super excited for some of the things proposed there. Um, I don't think she's watched tonight's meeting because I haven't gotten a text from her saying touch. So once they find out, they're going to be excited. So I love the direction that our city is going. But I would like to look into that uplighting and really bringing out especially if we have commercial development the uplighting or finding

ways to light up the landscaping. Especially this one was like a beautiful corner piece like to have some kind of little monument sign or something and really bringing out the beauty in our city. And I agree up lighting really is about aesthetics but aesthetics is such a big part of where you live. You don't want to just live in a place that has safety lighting. But there is something to say about beauty, just beautifying something and aesthetically pleasing. There's nothing wrong with investing in the aesthetics of our city daytime and nighttime. So looking at that, I understand that is an issue. Maybe it's a security issue for the developer, not necessarily for the city. But I am all about the aesthetics. I want to be somewhere where I am comfortable, happy, safe, but also it's beautiful to be in. Functionality is good. Beauty is a bonus that I think the city deserves. And I think all our citizens and we deserve to be in a place that we invest in with those small little things. When you go to other cities, they invest in those aesthetic little pieces and it shows. It really shows. So, I would like for us um to consider things of that nature when we are looking at commercial, residential, not just industrial because I know we're very tough on industrial, but I think we also need to raise the bar in some of our commercial development we have with the aesthet. I feel like we could the time to take it up a notch and really focus on all of the development and not just the building. We focus on the landscaping, but what do we do to enhance it at night?

So, I I unfortunately didn't get to go. Um, I know I was a part of it in the early development of it, but uh, I'm glad to see that it's finally getting off the ground and, um, grand opening did occur. Um, didn't get to go to it. I was out of town, but we'd love to take a tour of it at another opportunity. Um, it's nice to see that Harvest Landing is still sending us emails. I think we got like 6,000 emails. As you can hear it, me and uh

me and Hammond's uh emails chiming in every two minutes or one minute. There's another one. Um so it's ongoing. Um I look forward to doing my best to attend this Saturday the tools that built America for the historical site, Paris Valley Historical Society. Thanks for that notification. Oh

yeah, thank you. Just just to piggy back, I did go with him on Thursday. Get tired of seeing the fence around the building. So they finally took the fence down and let us in. Uh you'd be surprised and I can see why it took so long because this electronics equipment that's way beyond any of us unless you're into that step. I mean almost a, you know, MIT level stuff. You are not looking at just something on a table. It is really electronics that have wiring on on tables. So, I'm pretty sure that's what they waited on and that's not cheap. Okay. So, we went through the rooms. We just got selfguided ourselves. We left the the big big wigs go. We just said, "No, forget it. We're going to go on our own." So, we just walked and went up there. It's beautiful and a lot of things can go in that building and it's well designed and they have room on the top to add on some more space. So, they can even add on some more. Uh, we took a few pictures, but it's really nice. If you get a chance to go in, it's I think Mount Sack and I forget the other one that's also operating, but Dr. Williams who was was one of the original ones that was there was there too. Um and um they got the money as uh for the project. It went up a little more as always, right? But it was nice. It was nice to see there and they acknowledge us and it was very nice atmosphere. Um two I think lastly I think I would say I'm very proud of not only the planning commission but also the council and the direction they're taking. You know, we always want to beat them up, but they're taking a direction of going for economic development, community currency. So, let's give credit where credit's due.

They are moving in that direction. We don't need a lot more a lot more other stuff. We need a diversity diversity in the city. So, when you have a diversity economy, don't just have all Jack in the Box, just all Taco Bell. You want a diversity of things in the city. So, you don't have to when one goes out, every that's left for everything else. So, we've got warehouses in the right places, but we also have commercial coming in and we have enough housing coming in. We need some h apartments and other things, but I appreciate that they're moving in that direction. So, and now they're looking economic and then we have a fiscal impact. So, those meetings are throughout the city, which you probably might mention. Um, I may go to one of them. I think it's over by Lake Paris, the other one. But, um, they're looking at it. It doesn't mean we're, you know, physically insolvable. I think it's just might be important to go just to give you support, you know, and uh you know, they're working the mayor and they're working the council pretty hard here, guys. But look how good we've done. Look at the people asking to come to Paris. Look at the businesses. I mean, Dutch Brothers is come to Paris 10 years ago, forget it, you know, but now they can't wait, you know. Lastly, I want to thank the engineering staff and I know we really do a good job. You didn't pay me for this, so be quiet. Um, but I appreciate both of them and I appreciate their openness and they really work hard. It's not easy because you have a lot of behind the-scenes stuff and I came to the staff and they're running over the place and Kenneth though what Kenneth says he wants to be here. He says no no Kenneth is a planner. Okay, I've known him a long time. He's a planner but I appreciate it. So uh only thing I would ask for in the future and I think we're talking about a modernized system that's coming up future is to look at projects and where the development is and I think that would be something for future agendas uh where there's so much going on but there's so much that we need to know and that would be a public life on YouTube Facebook to show that these things are at the entitlement level. This is what's going on. They're digging dirt on get road by you what's going on there. you know the Ethan freeway all

the way they're starting I believe they're starting on that there's a new elementary school over by you I think it's granite elementary nobody would know that those are developments that have come so I think it'd be nice to know what's actually happened the fire station which is going to happen eventually you know but just a nice update on that that could be two months from now whenever and I did get meet get to meet with our planning director about the land use and other stuff I'll see what the city does with it but she probably said I had enough of this guy let's meet with them. So, start the year off right like this. It started off right. And with that, and we should be there on the 7th if we get an opportunity. Um, and I'll leave that with the director for future meetings, updates, announcements.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also had the opportunity to attend the grand opening of the skill center. It's a beautiful facility and we can't wait to see it full of students to energize our downtown. Um, I do have an announcement. You guys, uh, received a copy of this flyer. Um, grand opening of the new exhibit for Tools That Built America at the Paris Depot um, this coming weekend on Saturday the 7th from 1 to 4. Um, and just one item for the next um, upcoming planning commission meeting on the 18th. Um, it's a zoning code amendment, a city initiated, zoning code amendment. Uh we don't have any other items. So that'll that'll be it for for the next planning commission meeting. And that's all I have to report. I I I sorry I do want to mention that I did take notes on um the request of the chair to bring an update on the on the progress of projects throughout the city. There's a lot going on in the city of Paris right now. Uh and and it's exciting. So um we'll be uh putting something together to bring to the planning commission.

Thank you very much. Thank you. And we have a singer out there who sang the national anthem. She's sitting up there giving me that look. But she s has a great voice. She won't sing for us, but she sings for that, right? Beautiful. I mean, no instruments, nothing. Just gets up there and sings. So multi-talented. Yeah. Multi-talented. You think I'm not going to notice that? Yeah. But thank you very much. And with that, and thank you for the presentation. Thank you for that. And thank you, Raphael. He's been very patient. He's going to have to read what I gave him, too. He's 49 pages. He's going to go, "Uh, uh, yeah, 49 pages, guys." But, but anyway, with that, we move to our last thing, adjournment, unless anyone else had anything. We do want to adjourn and go in the back room, and that's all I'm going to say because it's on TV. But, um, happy birthday to those who had birthdays last month and have birthdays this month. And so, we want to appreciate that. You know, you're getting older, I'm getting younger. Okay. And we will adjourn at this time. And uh I can move it. Commissioner Shy can be seconded. And we all approve. No. Okay. Good night.