Public - workshop

You ready to get started? Okay, I can't see anyone in the audience. This is an unusual experience, but I'm calling to order the... budgetary workshop number five for july 16th at 4 30 p.m we're going to start with an opening prayer led by city attorney nevin zerman elder of first presbyterian church and the pledge of allegiance led by commissioner brian granger please rise there we go now i can see everybody i have no idea if you've heard me or not

Let us pray. Father, we're just so thankful for today. Thankful for once again being able to come and meet and look at things that are best. And I know that a lot of times it's difficult to differentiate best from good, but that is something that we are called to do. In Jesus' name we pray, amen. Amen.

If you'll join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Awesome. I'm going to pass it over to City Manager Hayes.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. All right, we'll do the roll call at this time.

Mayor Branch?

Present.

Okay. Commissioner Hughes is not here at this time. Commissioner Lucas? Present. Commissioner Granger?

Present.

Commissioner Street?

Here.

Mayor, you have a quorum.

Awesome. All right. Well, good evening, Mr. Mayor, Commissioner, staff, members of the public. We're here at our pre-budget workshop number five. This will be the final presentations for our staff. Tonight, we have Public Works doing all of the non-general fund accounts and divisions, and then followed by Housing and Community Services. At this time, I will turn it over to Mr. Clint Murphy, our Director of Public Works, to go through the first part of the presentation. Mr. Murphy?

Thank you, sir. Mr. Mayor, commissioners, I'm Clint Murphy, the director of public works, and we appreciate the opportunity to talk about public works today. This is our second shot at it. And I brought with me some support because I didn't know how far down in the weeds you wanted to get, but I brought some of my team just in case you had some detailed questions I might need some help with. To my left is Carlos Sanchez. He's a utilities operation manager. And we have Charles Gibbs, our assistant superintendent of environmental services, and Hannah Medkey, which is our environmental compliance manager. Thank you guys for joining. If you recall on a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about the general fund, and we had four different cost centers. We talked to you about at that time. So, today we are limited to what you see in red, and that is the enterprise fund cost centers of which we have 16, I believe. So, if you look at those centers, go ahead. Environmental services, we'll talk about residential and commercial garbage collection and bulk trash and yard waste collection. I think equipment and fleet maintenance is pretty self explanatory and on the utility side, they've got a lot going on there. They've got the water and sewer system, maintenance and repair lift stations. wastewater treatment plants, we have the lab, cross connection control, the fog program, and the national pollution discharge elimination system, which is associated with our stormwater system. Next. I love to talk about public works, and the best way to start with that is with garbage. So across Center 3420 is residential garbage. This service is provided to residents and small businesses twice weekly via our 90-gallon garbage carts, finally referred to as the blue carts.

When do we get those? Because people talk about them all the time.

We can get those to you. When do we get them? Oh, when do we get them?

He will love it.

yesterday so we blue trucks the blue trucks we started getting last year is the newer models people like yes i think so too uh yeah i thought you were offering the commissioner a garbage truck i thought he was asking about the blue carts and when we started using those i go well that's before my time but the blue trucks were very recent and part of the reason is the white trucks get dirty pretty easy these these you have to keep clean but they're a little more forgiving

They show off.

I agree. I love them. Let's see, the department utilizes eight of those side loading garbage trucks and one rear loader, what they call a packer truck. Some people call them the sling truck. And that's where they work out of the back, your old traditional. And that's in locations where it's too tight to be able to use a side loader. We have approximately 13,600 customers throughout the city and we collect around 15,000 tons of garbage per year. Commercial garbage collection service within the city corporate limits in this bullet point. And as of today, we collect 7 days a week using front end loaders that may change in the near future. I just got a notice today that I sent to Jared and Jonathan. That big county is talking about spending their Sunday landfill hours. And that'll put us in a little bit of a bind because we run a few trucks on Sunday. And if we wanted to continue to do that, and it's for restaurants and businesses that need that service, we would be kind of in a bind on what to do with the garbage at the end of the day. And it's not good practice to keep your trucks loaded overnight because you're asking for problems such as rodents. And potentially, if you have anything hot in your truck, there has been a fire known to happen. In fact, we had one a couple of years ago up in Panama City North, and your best option is just to dump the load on the street to save your half million dollar truck. I know the cleanup is. Is difficult, but it's better than losing your half million dollar truck. So if an unmanned. uh truck catches on fire you don't have that option and you'll lose your truck and depending on where it's parked you might lose more than one truck so that's going to create we're going to have to really talk through what we want to do there with that that would be even more of an argument for a transfer station by the way we utilize two four six and eight yard uh dumpsters in the process uh we have 2100 customers and we collect 18 000 tons of garbage a year thanks Cost Center 3430. This is our litter crew, and it's very popular with residents. It started in 2025 as a two-person crew, and we expanded it to four in fiscal year 26. This expansion allows us to operate two two-person crews out of two separate trucks. We remove litter and illegal dumped material from public land and roadways. Each crew is collecting, this is approximately 850 gallon bags of litter each year that they get off our right-of-way. Next. Cost Center 3440 is our residential trash. We have scheduled, anyway, once a week residential trash for family units. We attempt to utilize 10 trucks equipped with knuckle boom and trailer systems to provide this service. We have 2,100 customers. And we collect 75,000 cubic yards of trash per year. And I caveated that we are really struggling to keep drivers in that cost center. So as of today, I think we're down to being able to operate about five trucks.

Why do you think that is?

If you're asking my opinion, I think we have to really take a close look at the pay that we're offering for that position.

So how much is it? I want to speak.

We start them at 16, 1807. Thank you, Charles. I thought it was lower than that, actually. 1807.

This commission at the town hall that I had the privilege of moderating or being at, whatever I was doing, there was some conversation about, hey, how do we fill this gap and get back on schedule? Myself and Shane Doherty have talked through... getting some of our existing CDL drivers that maybe aren't familiar with the routes, trained on operating the actual knuckle boom and spreading all the CDL drivers that are on these vehicles because our drivers both operate the knuckle boom and operate the truck and peppering them out through our existing fleet and on certain days running a little bit of overtime because we've got some salary savings. additionally we're going to reach out to the county um and their uh their cdl drivers that that warm their heavy equipment work um four days a week 10 hours a day and so on fridays we may be able to extend some overtime uh opportunities to to their staff so we can plus up and get ahead so there's some of the things that we're looking at i just knew that question might come up what about the litter crew could they be cross-trained to the cdo

I mean, is that their sole purpose?

That's their sole purpose. And that's the lowest wage we offer at the city is that crew. So that's very unskilled labor. Now, we have used them periodically to run the mini sweeper on occasion when we're in a bind. But that does not require CDL.

There's got to be more people that have that skill set that we can train instead of hiring somebody else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

CDLs can be a little tough to get.

Yeah, they can. And they're pretty sought after. So once we get them, they tend to move on if the pay is right.

And there was some recent legislation a couple years ago at the federal level that made it much more difficult to get a CDL. And there's talk about rolling that back. So hopefully that could offer some relief. But we're... Just like any other business that relies on CDL drivers, this is a very common problem in Bay County.

So I had a phone call today about a group from August to November. They need space to train CDL drivers and heavy equipment drivers in the backs of these semis where they have... When you act like you're using it. Simulator.

Simulator.

Couldn't get that word. And they need places for three months for their semis to sit and train. And they need a little bit of space and that. I was like, hmm. So maybe I can talk to them and if we can pick off, yeah, we can provide it maybe. But how can we get to the CDLs?

The Bay County Contractors Association and the Chamber of Commerce, this was like a big task force for them. I believe it was last year or the year before. They made some progress in that, and I'd love to connect them with the BCCA folks in the Chamber.

All right. Thank you, sir.

Okay. Next. CNG station, this is cost center 3450. We are the only operated local CNG fueling station. Our environmental services fleet is 100% converted to run on CNG. Since the conception of the fueling station, we have saved approximately 1.5 million dollars in fuel expenses. And the station is available for outside customers to refuel with CNG. The one bullet that didn't make it on there is that it is good for our local air quality. And it's much better for your internal combustion engines. A lot of people think that gasoline is a pure fuel because it's liquid. That is not the case. There are a lot of impurities in both gasoline and diesel. And natural gas extends the longevity of an engine considerably. Next. Okay, sweet sweeping operations under cost center. Thirty four sixty or will be under cost. Thirty four sixty and the f y twenty seven budget proposed budget. We sweep approximately six hundred miles of roads annually removed on an average of five hundred. That number was updated to the five hundred tons of material per year. and the mini sweeper scrubbers purchased and mobilized this year, and we are now working on kind of concentrating on downtown in the start of that operation. There was some training and we had to get certain attachments in before we started using it, but it is in full use now and making a difference. Next. Just a quick look at environmental services overall budget. What controls both the utility and the environmental services budget is a rate study. We do a rate study about every five years. I think we are due, and correct me if I'm wrong, Barry, I think next year is when we're doing the next rate study?

Yes, there's one in the budget for fiscal year 27. Perfect.

Okay, so we're on the final year. Of the 1 that was done before you can see that our revenues are about. Are above those estimated by that rate setting and our expenses in this enterprise fund specific to environmental services is below the amount. So, for next year's budget, the rate study suggests 12.5Million dollar budget and what we're proposing at least in draft form to date is 12Million dollars. So, that's a really healthy enterprise fund for us.

What is admin? I see that wasn't in the right. Yeah.

Brandy might speak to this. I think that's a new cost center that was created after the.

Yeah, we created that cost center to be consistent with how we do our other funds. Like, in general fund, we have a public works admin. and utilities fund we have a utilities admin cost center um those costs were there they were just spread out and cost allocated out amongst the other cost centers so they were 34 20 30 40 50. so you had you had positions split out and costs split out and instead we moved all of those to that admin cost center service delivery service delivery budget

where everything it costs to do this service is included in this budget, right?

Yes, it's more reflective of that. OK.

But the other thing is it gets the same budget numbers as others. So copiers and insurance. It's another place that money goes to. I don't agree with the admins.

Those costs were still there, Commissioner? They were just split out instead of you seeing them all in one place. It's made it a lot easier.

When we first got in here, there was these lump sum amounts. It was just copiers for the city. This much money. And it was like, well, okay, who's using them? Right. Right? There's HR, lump sum to the city. Okay, well, how much is this particular one using towards HR versus this one? Right. And so we asked for it to be split out. We asked for it to be put in here like that so that way we could see that, okay, in order to run all of this, that's the admin overhead needed to do that. Now, needed is, we can argue that all day long as whether or not you need this many copiers, that many copiers. But the point is, is that we wanted it reflected in the particular budget bucket. Okay. And that's so that you can see that, okay, well there's, there's HR happening here. There's copiers, there's pencils, paper, all that other stuff that you have to do to do your job. Right. All that stuff kind of goes in there instead of it just being like another fund. That's just kind of ephemeral. We don't know where that's going. Okay.

So the lady that is when I walk into your office right there, is she in the admin?

She is.

Okay. So she's in the admin, and they've got her budget in for all we should have there are salaries because they're picking up all the coffee years and all the other expenses. What they've done is add more expense to that cost center when it's not there.

Or we could allocate it out. It makes it easier to be able to, when you're costing out invoices or doing your purchase orders, to be able to do one cost center versus having to allocate it out amongst all the different costs.

But if you're saying that instead of having $50 in coffee, it would be $100 over there. Because you're taking costing it out 50 to admin and 50 to utilities if we didn't toss it out to admin You're saying utilities would be $100 Where would it be?

We're gonna go the problem that we were faced with was when I we asked the question how much is does police cost in its entirety? We couldn't get an answer. How much does fire cost in its entirety? Couldn't get an answer. How much does public works cost in its entirety? We couldn't get an answer because they were reliant on all these other things and those other things were completely separated financially from them. And so then we said, okay, let's lump this all together, change how we do the accounting a little bit to where we're not hiding anything, but that it's Public Works has two separate budgets because they use general fund and they have enterprise fund. They're one of the different ones out there.

Three enterprise funds.

Three enterprise funds. And so we wanted to see what does that look like in its entirety, right? So it makes it easier to make decisions at this level when you can see all of it in one bucket.

And I like that. Okay. I'd like to see some more line hunting, but I like that. My issue is not admin. They're treating that admin cost center, I hate that word, that it's got all these expenses. It doesn't. The same coffee machine that Clint's using, so is the admin. But $50 goes, whatever the number is, goes there. But the admin is separated out. Why does that cost center need to have all of that budget like everybody else? It's not doing the same. Yes, ma'am.

The Admin Cost Center for Environmental Services is not located in the same building. It is its own admin cost center because all of those costs, the copier that you're seeing, the salaries, and all of the office supplies are in a completely different building. They don't have access to the same copiers that Public Works has.

You just told me she's that woman that's not nice.

That's not the environmental services admin. The environmental services admin is over at Massalina.

It's all the same. Well, hold on. The French wants to say.

Are you wanting them all to share one copier?

Is that what you're saying? budgeting for and this is about budget it's not about they're all sharing the same competition they're not they're not they're in a separate building so massively so this admin that's the massalina one let's bring us back to we're solving for i think we budget too much if i'm if i'm in the same office with you and i've got five call centers why do i need five budgets for the same thing that we're all using

But that's not what's happening here, sir, but this is a different office. So we allocate all of those expenses that are exclusive to this enterprise fund and exclusive to. Environmental services in the admin cost center, because otherwise what we would have to do is take that bill for the copier and divide it between residential trash, commercial garbage. 4 or 5 other cost centers, and that's not a viable way to actually get the cost of what the overhead to operate the garbage and trash collection would be in a way for us to be able to examine the budget properly. So we can make proper expense cuts where it's maybe not necessary to have. What if environmental services had 2 copiers, but we couldn't tell because they're Being split between different cost centers this way, we know they're only using 1, and we can control those overhead admin costs.

That's what the admin cost centers for commissioner. And I think when, when you said admin, we were pointing to a specific person sitting behind a desk when, when, when this whole cost centers at Massalina, and it's in the public works administration building. and it does have an administrative assistant, it does have a copier, it does have those office supplies, and all those things that it takes to work. And that's what this is reflective of. And I think we got confused with admin and then administrative assistant.

So Charlotte, you asked, I'm sorry, Commissioner.

I was just going to ask the question, does it make sense to bring their administrative arm over to here to reduce overhead costs?

We need admin at Masolino.

We can look at it, but that person is dealing with, like, hey, you missed my garbage pickup and the amount of phone calls that come in. I'm not asking them to do anything different.

I'm just saying the proximity that's here.

That's part of the issue, but we can look. I mean, I'm not adverse to looking at that and seeing if it creates a synergy and saves us some money. But the proximity to the staff that she supports is over there.

Shane needs her over there.

He really does. I mean, we could look at it. I'm not saying no. Yeah.

So, Commissioner Hughes, I don't think I answered your question prior. Charlotte is the young lady that is in my office. She's in Cost Center 1710, which is the general fund public works. So, this is a different one that we're talking about. I didn't understand your question there.

Well,

Okay, um, big issue and I think I've shared with with you during our last meeting is we are short of total of 9 drivers. I think 6 of those now, because I just signed a is in residential trash. So we're, as we've discussed, we're struggling to attract qualified drivers and that's our, our big issue in this enterprise fund. Next.

But those are still budgeted.

They are still budgeted. So when we see this, this number, it includes those drivers. That's right. And even though we're under a hiring pause right now, Jonathan has approved.

Us advertising for these critical positions, because of the impact on the service level that it's creating, I think to Robbie's point, what would be helpful is maybe on this 1st of all I. Operations wise trash, they've always done an amazing job. I love our trash people. I often compliment them as the most well run operation in all of the city. No offense to every other department, but they're, they do a fantastic job. Maybe why don't we start with the conversation of just seeing a line item detail of what's in that admin calls from this past year. So, let's just take a look at it. Okay, all right actual.

Is that free? I assume you want that for each of the budgets.

I was going to try to keep it simple by just looking at trash and their overhead number is actually really low comparatively to every other department we've looked at thus far. So I think if they're probably the leanest of the bunch, but it would be good to kind of just see. Because I don't even know that I understand everything that gets tagged to admin. So that would just clarify.

I do know that when trash gets missed or when bulk pickup gets missed, that's the quickest way that people reach out.

Yeah, it is. I mean, frankly, these guys can't take any days off. They can't miss anything. They can never be sick.

You can ask them to come to meetings. You can have all kind of public outreach is miss trash. That's right.

You tell me that the call starts on the east side of town.

It does. Yeah. And it's a little different than, like, say, if we don't do and there's only five holidays where we don't pick up the blue cans, you know, obviously, east side, west side. But with, you know, with the bulk pickup or the call, you know, they just, you know, if they. get behind as a holiday they pick right back up where they left off and then they just start that loop over again and so between the bulk pickup of the trash and then our you know the blue cans i mean our guys literally like our entire team i think they pretty much drive every road in our city three days a week they're the entire team between the tuesday friday pickup and then the monday thursday pickup and then the bulk trash pickup as well okay commercial And they have to drive all the way to – well, the commercials don't drive every single road like the side loaders and the trash does. And they have to drive it halfway to Niceville.

All right, next we'll talk about the Equipment and Fleet Maintenance Enterprise Fund. It's a separate enterprise fund. It just has one cost center that is 8930. They are responsible to repair and maintain a fleet of 875 vehicles and pieces of equipment. They average more than 5,100 work orders per year. It runs and operates the city's automated fueling facility there at Massalina. It coordinates outsourcing to local mechanic shops as needed for specialty work and heat shaving. If we get overloaded and there's work queued in line, they'll outsource it to expedite the return of that piece of equipment. Next. quick look at the overall budget there um they've proposed for fy 27 an increase in 178 000 i'll call it 179 000 over this year's budget the reason for that primarily is we're anticipating more outsourcing in the last month we have lost three of our mechanics Three might not sound like a lot, but it's three out of 12, which represents 25% of our mechanics. And unfortunately, it was some of our most experienced mechanics. Where did they go? One went to the county, the other one went to a private shop, and the other one to the beach.

What's the lowest pay that they left?

I don't know what the payday got at the new location.

I have one of the offers. Well, it was an old offer, and then they gave it to him twice. I have one of the offer letters for one that left. Vicki's back. Do you know the answer to that, ma'am?

Sorry, sir.

Mechanics mechanics yes, the 1 that went to the county. Do you know what he was offered? I think I sent you the mechanic.

Yeah. No, I don't have a mechanic offer letter. That was environmental services, sir.

No, I sent you one.

Well, I can get it to you. It was considerably...

I have that in my office. My apologies. I do not have that with me. I know the mechanics we've lost recently. We lost one to moving to Pensacola and going to an entirely different field of work. I know we lost one mechanic... To the county. To the county. I recall that one, but I just don't know the rate of pay there. And...

One just walked down on the left.

That mechanic did part ways, but there were other challenges involved in that mechanic sparting ways as well. Outside of pay.

That's right.

Definitely outside of pay. My apologies for missing the question and stepping out.

You're good.

Anything else, sir?

No, thank you. So the primary reason for that increase, we've also asked for $135,000 in capital money to help with a loop system that we've been trying to get for several years now. Currently, they have to run back and forth to 55 gallon drums and. It's not very efficient. Portable hydraulic lifts would be safe and more efficient. Lift frame attachments, those are essentially a quick connect and disconnect system that makes getting a vehicle on a lift quicker and actually safer. And water-cooled fans for the shop, those of you that have been in there this month. know that it's almost unbearable in there. It's a pretty hot environment, so water cooled fans would go a long way for our mechanics. How are we doing on the, um, the facility because I know we're building the facility for these guys correct? That is that's that was in the pipe and that was kind of a dream. Uh, that was Mark McQueen who who envisioned that. Uh, however, um, the funding we didn't understand.

I've got this numbers. Okay. We were going to build a new building for four and a half million and instead we spent about 1.2 or 1.3 and fixed up the one we have.

So that work is complete. Yeah, work is complete. Yeah. Yeah. And we, as part of that, we tried to get the loop system in that and it didn't make the cut. So there are no current plans. We have the hard copy plans because Dale Cronwell helped with that. But there's no current plans to build a new facility.

is there any are these guys ever a part of an evaluation process on equipment and vehicles that we choose i mean these guys have got to work on them i assume that they know which ones are bad yes ones are good yeah they will they will provide input to our purchasing department on what vehicles are easier to maintain So, I think last time we talked about doing an evaluation of all city vehicles, I would love to see the comments of our equipment maintenance personnel as part of that report. Okay. So that we can include the guys that actually maintain it on what vehicles are worth keeping. What were your rules are? Please don't buy another 1 of these.

They would appreciate that input. Tim lamb was hoping to be here tonight. He had a family emergency that took him to Alabama, I believe. So he had had there yesterday.

So I hope things are you're asking for the capital request. Would you say that is to improve working conditions?

Yes.

And would that also be a factor along with pay? Yes. Why it's challenging to get absolutely.

I think that would help.

We're looking at doing a couple other things. A lot of mechanic shops, including ours, a lot of mechanics bring their own tools to the job, and they stock their tool chest and lock their tools. We're providing impact wrenches up to a certain degree. But something that we found out, Clint and I and the team visited the equipment maintenance shop, what, two weeks ago? Two weeks. And one of the comments was, hey, when we break one of our impact wrenches that may be smaller or bigger than what we provide, it's on us. And that's a $700, you know, drill or wrench. And so we're looking at providing some additional city-owned tools and bringing that to the game, too. And I think that would help attract and retain some talent as well.

Is that part of this request?

That is not.

That would be in, like, our equipment costing less than $3,500. And that would be in the operating piece.

Did you mention the tool allowance idea? Any other questions on this one?

I'd like for you to, on the trucks we have across the street, can you give us how many we are, in order of best to worst, doing the all-run? How many miles? Do we keep miles on our trucks?

Yes. When you get fuel, you're required to input the mileage as you're getting fuel.

Okay. And is there a limit that once it hits a certain number, we train it out?

There's not. I think we would like for that to happen. But as of now, it's based on the budget, what we have available to replace it. Now, what we do try to do when we buy a new vehicle, we'd get rid of the old one, take it to ours.

Yeah, and Brandy and myself and Sean Self, the logistics director, have a draft policy already for a one vehicle in, one vehicle out policy, unless otherwise given permission, so that way we're not accumulating more vehicles than we And we did have a system of like hand-me-downs. And so if somebody's got to dispose of a vehicle and they know they need to, then that can either be given to another department. Well, now it's got to be authorized. So we're not growing our fleet like this shadow fleet, if you will. the uh and i do want to remind commissioner hughes um you know we talked about vehicles and those vehicles that are sitting over across the the way um because the hiring freeze too we have we have positions that have funding that would typically have a vehicle and and we have not we've made a conscious choice Because the budget discussions to not hire those people on the hiring pause. So that may be part of the case too, but. I know Sean and his team are working on that vehicle evaluation. He did say that he had roughly. Concern about 20 of our vehicles, and then we need to make sure that we scrub those for those potential positions that we may not fund that that are currently vacant. And then we would, in my mind, we would divest ourselves of those vehicles or. you know, if they could be used, you know, PD needed an F-150 or it helped them out. I will say that every time we look at replacing a vehicle, it's my expectation that our department heads look at the vehicle and say, hey, is it Is it worth continuing to repair, or is it that 07 Crown Vic that was used for years, and it might be worth $2,500, but are we going to put a $3,000 motor into it? I would expect we make those evaluations before we ever put more money into an asset that may not be worth it.

So is Sean taking insurance off those cars while they sit?

I don't know if we can do that, but I will ask him. Maybe it's a reduction because they're not seeing the mileage. But he has, because we've got this Verizon system installed in a lot of our fleet, we can see the miles that are put on those vehicles every month. And like I said, he did even tell this board that he had concern about 20 of those vehicles. And so we're actively working that problem. Even before the commission made light of it at the last meeting.

So, Clint, the camera system that you asked about, is that on all the trucks, on the trash trucks?

We put it on approximately 22 of our fleet vehicles, and that goes into, the install's complete, and that goes into operation starting next week. We'll start gathering data.

And how long is it we're going to gather data?

Well, it'll be indefinitely before you have me. You're talking about the RMT PCI, Pavement Condition Index.

We're trying to figure out how to do a road plan.

Yes, that's RMT system. It takes four to six weeks to have meaningful data on that, but it will be continuous. We're planning to do that indefinitely, gather that data.

Why did it take so long from the time we talked about it to it's just now starting?

Well, we didn't have a Wi-Fi network in place was part of the problem. So we have some of the vehicles at Massalina, some of the vehicles at 19th and Beck. So we had to establish a wireless network. And it has to be independent from any existing wireless network. And it had to have certain bandwidth. And so it took a while to get that set up. And then they wouldn't even mobilize until that was done, RMT, to do the install. And then it took a while to get them scheduled once that happened. It just was logistically difficult to make it happen.

Which one of those extra charges was a surprise? Because we didn't talk about the Wi-Fi network and setting all that up.

That's always been part of the equation. RMT did not charge us for that because that's required of the customer. So that was not part of it. I know it cost us money. Yes, yes.

Was that in your presentation of numbers?

That was in our calculation. I don't think it was that expensive. I might look to Cody for support on this. The wireless networks that were put at Massalina and at 19th and back for the RMT system, do you know how much we had to spend on that?

I think it was at... Is that part of the WOW Comcast? We got every internet service possible. And we didn't have that wireless network or couldn't work that.

It's not a function of just getting internet to the facility. I believe it's a mesh network, but it has to have proper coverage where every vehicle parks. So the vehicle, when it does park, it can upload the data from the day. And so that's, you've got quite a bit of parking lot, and you've got to cover it, and so you have to have the appropriate number of access points and all that stuff.

Which makes it extra fun, because all these vehicles are made out of metal. Which blocks. Which blocks, yeah.

Jared pretty much answered that there, but we had wifi in the facilities already, but it was made for the facilities and the people in the facilities, not the parking lot. So we had to get special equipment with special antennas that are able to cover up to a half-mile campus there and cover all these vehicles with high enough bandwidth. And there was a lot of back-ordered parts. The antennas took months to get in. Just do your name and title for the public. Cody Klingelhut, Senior Manager, Information Technology. What antennas did you use? I'm just curious. I do not have the name of the tenant off the top of my head, sir. Oh, no. Links us. We brought in a specialist and had them figure out what was the best option for us. The ones that were on sale.

Yeah. Best Buy. Lois.

There you go. All right. Ready to move on to the next enterprise fund? All right. Utilities. This is the big one. It's probably your favorite topic here. Carlos and his team over at utilities developed some key priorities for next fiscal year. And we're going to go through them real quickly here. Maintain a healthy utility enterprise fund is very important. Maintain emergency repair capability and environmental compliance. Support the family meter and MXU replacement effort that you guys are very familiar with. optimize operating costs toward long-term infrastructure resilience and training, improve field response capabilities through IT solutions, and continue proactive inspection and maintenance processes. Next. Cost Center 3630 is our underground cost center. Part of the goals are to increase operational effectiveness, and it has that we've been successful that have driven down water loss from 30% last year to just over 8% this year. So that's a job well done. Part of that has to do with the new infrastructure that's being put in through SRF and other grant funding that you see all over town. Of course, when we selected the areas of town to do those projects in, we used the heat map that I think you're familiar with, and that actually indicated the worst sections of that infrastructure. So we're hoping that we're getting the biggest bang for our buck in the locations where we selected. Since October of 2025, we've executed over 1300 work orders for water. and over 800 work orders for sewer. And that might not sound like many work orders, but some of those work orders take a week to complete on big projects. So it could be time consuming based on the scope of work for that particular work order. We have a continued focus on environmental compliance and increased investments in water meter replacement strategy.

Would you say that the emergency repairs are going down in terms of, oops, there's water coming out of the ground or sewage backing up into a home.

I would have said that until the telecom came into town and started doing the underground boring, and that's created a whole different dynamic. But, yes, as far as independent from that, I think.

But they pay for their mistakes, correct? After the fact. The man-made ones, notwithstanding, I would agree with Clint. Like, we're not seeing as many, like, You drive by and oh, my God, there's a guys are coming out of the ground and we're not seeing near as much of that. Yeah.

And I think Commissioner Street alluded to it. You know, when when he and I started back in the summer of 2021, I mean, it was like six weeks or six months to get to some leaks. And, you know, we've got that down to most of the time. If we get an emergency, our guys can be there within 60 to 90 minutes to address it.

So, we talked last year when we talked about the, and I know this, this project has gone way longer than what any of us thought that it should. But Jan was kind enough to supply us with what that 26.97% represented in revenue. Of water loss, and that was a 1.4Million dollar number that she laid on us. So I think this kind of communicates that most of our water loss was coming from meters. Not working. Is what it appears to me is that kind of what you guys are are seeing.

I mean, that's a considerable amount. But like I said, you know, you have infrastructure all over the ground that's slowly leaking that you won't see for months on end. You know, another reason that we've kind of reduced the amount of calls is kind of a change in policy. Instead of just going out and just doing patchworks on laterals to homes and just fixing that, we're just doing a complete replacement because the PVC might already be degraded enough that, yes, I did patch here. But then two feet from it, it's going to be leaking next month. So if it's a repeat customer, our guys are going in there and just doing a whole new line. So we're not going back. We're not having to continue to dig up the road. And that's essentially set up for the next 15, 20 years.

So you're saying we're not billing... this this amount more so our water loss went from twenty six percent down to eight and we're not we're not paying the county for for wholesale water that we're not building retail rates correct that is correct yeah are we seeing our our water billing of what usage is in the city is that getting billed more I would have to refer to this because that would tell me that it's the water meter.

Yeah, we'll have to look at it, but it could also be these infrastructure projects that we're doing also having an impact.

So the measurements and where you develop the delta is we have master meters all around the city and that's where the county. counts the amount of water that they distribute into our distribution system. And then the only time we're able to measure what we need to charge our customers is at our water meters, right? So between those master meters and all of our residential meters, that's where all the leakage is happening. That's where that water loss is happening. So repairing those, whether it's the huge programs or projects that we have going on throughout the city or the minor leaks that are also underground, those add up as well as the failing meters. Because they're on estimated billing, they tend to be very underestimated. That's also loss in revenue. Uh, because once again, bay county is, they're going to count their master meters to the T. And so us recovering that delta is where we recover that revenue.

So meters, and I'm bringing this from the standpoint of meters are our number 1 priority inside of this. And yes, and to let me go back 5 years ago, when we started this rate study, we did a rate study when meters weren't working. And so everything that we relied on for the last 5 years, and our rate study didn't have a, there was a significant number of meters that were not working. And so it is vital, like, to me, I cannot support doing another rate study unless this metering issue is done.

Okay. So we so commissioner street we do. It's not quite ready for prime time yet, but we are formulating a plan to get after the rest of the bad meter issues. We're proposing that potentially some of that funding come out of Surtax to immediately get out and replace. It's a funding issue, and we believe, and I'll let Carlos speak to it because he's given me the proposal.

So I funded three rounds of this. The board has funded three rounds of meter replacements. What else are you going to ask for it?

It's all of those were not to be able to complete the project. I mean, we went in when we installed all the new meters. We did the whole city at one time. So now what year was that?

2014. 2014. Wasn't it?

I don't know.

I think it was 2014. It was over a decade ago. That's the point.

It was like a $6 million project back then, is what I know, to convert to the whole census metering.

And so now... And what's happened is we haven't replaced meters, and this is... It's acute here because of the hurricane and because our system was offline for so long, but it's not something that a lot of utilities throughout the country aren't experiencing. So we're seeing cascading failures. And what I've asked our consultants to do at Core Maine is to get us a regular replacement plan. We'll let Core Maine execute that for us. But we've got to get ahead here. We estimate it's about $1.2 million to make the initial push to get the failed meters that are in the ground now that are failed. But we're seeing about, Carlos, $500 come out a month.

So, yeah, slight clarification. So we're losing about 200 readable meters per month that are becoming unreadable. So, you know, part of the problem is, is we put all these thousands of meters in the ground at the same time and they're all starting to fail right now.

So I would like to see a comprehensive. So. It's not been very well communicated. Maybe everyone else understood this and I was just ignorant to it, but I thought we were going to be done with the metering April of last year. And so it sounds like there's something more catastrophic than even what we've discussed that is continuing to snowball, which does make sense because we continue to get residents that reach out to us about estimated billing billing that's off. Billing that's only from a day, all of these other things. So we, we need to understand exactly what it takes to complete this to have it done and to fix. Because I don't know what to say, but by going through a, a rate study. without having towers active and no metering was ridiculous but that was right after a hurricane like now like we need to have accurate data and this is that I was actually super encouraged by these numbers but I thought it was the meters but apparently it's not the meters are still failing so we can't expect our citizens to take action that's not exactly what you're saying you're saying is that you have a you know a wave crest that you're chasing correct

That's what he's saying. So you have 200 a month are failing?

That's correct.

But how many are you replacing?

We're just barely keeping pace. So we're able to replace currently more. But the issue isn't the pace. It's the supply. So being able to buy enough meters and MXUs to then have our contractor put them into the ground. So you're looking at about $170 per meter and $170 per MXU. Obviously, those are your transmitters. And then it costs about $90 for the contractor to put it in the ground. They can scale up. And this is part of the proposal that I've already showed Jared of different courses of actions that we could take, depending on how much we want to invest up front, as well as the 2027 proposal does increase the amount that we have budgeted for purchasing meters. If I could buy more meters, we can put them in the ground. Faster, but of course there's opportunity cost so if we do this and solve this problem today We're going to be in the same wave crest where it's all going to come at the same time that doesn't make sense to me well So the other the other thing we're doing too is we're looking at moving and changing to meters that are easier to Replace without having to remove them from the line so essentially you make it from an actual plumbing activity to just essentially replacing a battery board And it's at a smaller cost and less man-hours per meter.

So I think the wave crest issue is if we replaced all 18,000 meters today in 10 years, we're going to be facing the same problem because those meters... That doesn't make sense. Because they have a 10-year lifespan. And so when you replace the meter today, if you're not replacing one-fifth of your system every year, then you're going to, at a 10-year period, have cascading failures. That's what he's asking for. You're going to have a massive failure.

Yeah. That's what I'm asking for. I think the rest of us are probably asking for it as well. How do we get to where we're just replacing one-fifth every year?

Yeah. What do you mean? I mean, that's kind of what we're doing now, but we're chasing that wave. And so what... What Carlos has proposed is says, hey, if you spend 1.2 to 1.5, you get way ahead of that, and you're replacing 500 for a period of time, and you get ahead of that.

It's about $2.5 million will solve the whole problem. But you're asking for 1.2 million from the infrastructure surtax.

You're asking for 1.2 million from the infrastructure surtax.

My dyslexia got a hold of me. It's 2.1. Not 1.2. Two and a half. Two and a half. Excuse me. Do I hear three? No. It's two and a half. And just to be clear, we're still fleshing this out. So the caveat is that this really wasn't ready for prime time, but I did want to look at it. At the end of the day, I wanted to let you know that staff is working hard to identify solutions to this problem and more immediate. And when we go back to April of last year, that was the cell tower connections and the MXU connections to see how bad we were. And that's when we hired a consultant. What's the name of that? Rayburn to help us identify the problem. The problem that we knew then is It has has been fixed to a degree. Our systems are all now.

So, before we, before we take any further action, I would personally like to see you guys discuss with the county on what meter usage they're using and what they're doing for the residential meters. They have obviously, you guys are aware we've been in discussions and had conversations about potentially taking over their retail service area. So it would make sense to try to see is there is there a system that makes sense for both happy to do that. So, um. Until that point, what we need, I guess staff to understand is be kind to our residents and understand that when they get a bill and they're surprised by it, it probably has to do with our failed equipment. I mean, so let's not. Gaslight them to make it think it's something else. We obviously, we have another, we have a known issue here. So, um, so anyway, and I have this.

And so I would, I would tell you, like, I would not support any of our staff gaslighting anybody.

I mean, what I mean by that, oftentimes it's, it's well, maybe you have a leak, maybe you have this, maybe you have that. I mean, it sounds like we've got enough known issues within our system that it's probably save everybody time and money to resolve it move forward. We need to replace me to replace a meter.

So a point of clarification on that 2.4Million, which would expedite a solution, it would be replacing about 6000 meters. So it wouldn't create. the same title wave of a replacement needs 10 years from now. It would be significant, but that's only about 25% of our meters.

Would we then need next year for the infrastructure surtax to be used to keep up with the wave?

No. No, ma'am. So we have budgeted $225,000 in the FY20... 27 budget to actually buy enough. If we can solve the entire problem right now, right, that $2.5 million, $2.4 million, $2.5 million, then we'll be at one that we can buy enough with the budget that we're in, as well as that we can keep pace with it. It's really the supply issue. The contractor can make the pace. Right now, if he can ramp up and we had enough supply, he could put 500 in the ground a week. And right now, like I said, we have 200 failing a month. So we can catch up quick. We're estimating about if, once again, if we had a check cut for that $2.5 million, once all supplies are in and he ramps up, he can have all of them in the ground in 11 weeks approximately.

And the great thing about that is replacing it at that level, we get ahead of the crest and and the census system allows us to see when a meter is is low on battery and then we can now we were not replacing meters that have failed. Now we're replacing meters that are potentially about to, and we're solving the problem before we get to a point where we're estimating a customer's bill. So that's why getting ahead of it will help us. The mayor has his hands up.

Yeah, sorry. Does the memo that you have, Jared, you can make me larger on the screen. Does the memo also include the cost analysis between the two different products, the one that you can replace the battery pack out of?

It does and we're still working on it, but and we can get that to you guys soon.

I'm wondering on these residents. So it's about 300 and something dollars from what I understand. To replace a meter, how long does it take us to recoup? That sounds like it's a long time. To recoup to recoup the cost of actually making this repair. It sounds like it may take us. 2 years of residential water usage to recoup 300 something understood.

I mean, but the alternative would be a meter that's being estimated and most likely under estimated. I mean, it has to be replaced.

the question is how much it's being under and how much it's being underestimated i mean if it's minus one times two from this if it's just if it's a thousand gallons you know a month or whatever it is it may not be it may be inconsequential is what i'm trying to say i'm not talking about commercial users that use 10 20 30 100 000 gallons i'm talking about just an average you know two bedroom one bath house $300 is a big expense. I mean, I don't know. I think that you guys should really look at the numbers with this because $2 and whatever million, that's a lot of money to hit on the utility system. And even if we take it from surtax, that's money that comes from roads. It comes from other things. So maybe there's a way for us to tighten our belt, maybe get twice as good as we are now. I don't know.

Understood.

Okay.

Ready to move on, Chair? All right. Looking at lift stations, this is Cost Center 3640. We maintain over 140 lift stations across the city, utilizing 19 technicians. Since October of 2025, we have acknowledged 7,600 SCADA alarm calls. The SCADA system is the automatic monitoring system that we have on most of our lift stations, and it sends out an alarm. So that our techs are alerted if a station starts having problems. Obviously, the goal of that is to get us out there and do a repair or take care of things before an SSO occurs. We are targeting maintenance on the highest failing lift stations. And as you know, we have projects going on where we are in fact replacing older stations with better equipment.

boxes on the top. You've got to wrap them. People are like, what's going on? You can see it from a mile away.

Yeah, that's true.

I've heard that before.

Moving over to our wastewater treatment operations, there's 3 cost centers associated with that. We treat about 12.5M gallons a day across 2 plants since October 2025 treated over 860M gallons of wastewater. We're investing in increasing effectiveness and efficiency at both plants and we are assisting the study for the possible Millville wastewater treatment plant relocation study.

Which employee is in charge of lift stations?

Neil Howard. No. One person. No. Lift station. I'm sorry. Lane. Jonathan Lane.

Jonathan Lane is the superintendent for lift stations.

Okay. Why are we budgeting $3,500 for a janitorial if lift stations are outside?

Because the environment in which they work with is very dirty, and we do have showers back in 19th and laundry facilities. I mean, they have office facilities, and that's an annual cleaning contract. So, I mean, I just... Am I missing something?

Do we have one janitorial service? There's no way because we don't have one of anything.

We have one company that cleans everything. Yeah, the building's split in half, but, I mean, underground shouldn't pay for the lot. So the underground pays a percentage, and list station pays a percentage.

As a city, we have one janitorial service because everybody budgets for it.

There's not a janitorial service big enough. It's kind of spread through several companies.

Has anybody ever asked if a janitorial service, one, can do a better job in terms of money and efficiency? I bet it's not been asked.

Yeah, it has been asked. Mr. Self?

Sean Self, Logistics Director, City of Pine Island City. Yes, repeatedly. We go out to bid quotes multiple times. One of the big factors in those type of businesses is the quality as well, because you can get someone really, really cheap, and they do a horrible job. There are some companies that do a great job for us and some of our different facilities, but they also can't scale up to do the entire city. We have had some that we have given multiple locations at a time. They couldn't maintain them. So we have probably about four to five different companies doing it right now. And they're spread out between Massalina here, the lift station, wastewater treatment, all the different locations. And so we are always looking at that repeatedly, not just for cost savings, but better quality. And there's some, like I said, we'd like to scale up with, but they just don't have the ability to do that. Some of the larger companies, quite honestly, are really too expensive to do that with as well.

No trying to negotiate with them on a price?

We do it every single time we secure their business. Okay.

The bypass, folks, you've got budgeted for, is that for the rest of them that are not done? The 310,000?

No, these are actual, like, temporary bypass pumps. So the beautiful orange ones that you described, those are permanent bypass pumps. So those are actually going to stay there. These are temporary ones that we bring in to lift stations that either the permanent one cannot keep up with what's going on during whatever repair needs to be done, or they're going to locations that don't have a bypass pump currently, and we're temporarily placing it there until we can make the necessary repairs.

Okay, so we're putting a permanent one on there that doesn't work,

So the permanent emergency bypass pumps that we have around the city, like I said, those are for emergencies. Sadly, some of those lift stations aren't working. They have infrastructure issues in general. So those emergency bypass pumps are actually being used essentially to be the lift station, which it's not designed to do. They have about a 500-hour maintenance schedule. Uh, so at 500 hours and it's running most of the day, uh, it's only taken a few weeks for us to having a, you know, do an entire tear down oil change, the entire maintenance schedule for it, uh, to get it back online. So in times like that, that's where your temporary bypass pumps are necessary. Uh, cause if we do not, uh, in your, you're talking about the capital request for them, if we don't purchase them, we're renting them. So.

Okay. Do we have a list of what lift stations next? Do we have a plan of when that's going to happen? And do we have money for it? The list of temporary station pumps for lift stations that don't work or not all the way operational. That lift station needs to be fixed. Do we have a list in order of what we're once we're going to do next?

Gotcha. Understood. So the temporary bypass pumps, they're mobile. Uh, so they don't stay at a specific lift station. They move. Uh, but yes, one of the things that we put up there that we're prioritizing is instead of just continuing, just being reactive, uh, with our budget and how we do things, uh, we're going to be more targeted. So that's integrating with the, uh, our underground utility section. So our lift stations team knows the frequent callers. We already have data showing the SCADA system, like, Hey, these are constantly calling us out. They have, issues, but it usually isn't the actual lift station. Some of these are brand new remodeled lift stations, but it's the upstream pipes that are bringing sand, grit, bricks from failing manholes that are clogging up our pumps. So by identifying those, we have a list that we're generating for our underground team that can now start targeting those upstream lines, do some CCTV inspections, as well as we're looking at getting some artificial intelligence applied to that to where it can actually make an assessment off of our footage, if it's smarter to do a complete repair, if it's smarter to just do lining, or somewhere in between, so we're making a cost-effective solution for the overall system.

I still haven't fixed the lift station at that. So let me ask it more specifically. There's a lift station on Beach Drive on the east end next to the water.

Correct.

When's that being moved? Where's that in the plan to be moved and rebuilt?

So that's... So I almost called you congressman. A little flashback, sorry. Maybe that's an omen. So you heard it here tonight, folks. Robbie Hughes for Congress. Commissioner, so that is part of the Hazard Mitigation Grant Program, the HMGP we got. a grant to harden about 11 lift stations. That lift station, lift station number 45 and lift station number 47, which is in Wood Avenue in someone's backyard, those will be combined and moved up to the southwest corner of the Garden Club parcel, kind of right at the end of Skyland Avenue on the north side of that. We're currently working through FDEM and FEMA on kind of finalizing that. All 11 lift stations from across the entire city that are part of this particular HMGP grant are at 100% design and have been now for probably 18 months. FEMA is going through those right now in Region 4 out of Atlanta. Our hope is, you know, hopefully in the next 60 to 90 days, we get the go ahead to that. We split those 11 lift stations into three different project areas for the purposes of going out to bid. And again, our local engineers and our public works team have already done everything they need to do. It's just a matter of getting sign off on those final plans from FEMA through FDEM so that we can then go to bid.

It'd be really cool if you told the public, if we told the public that. I just learned a lot.

Yeah.

We're waiting on the money. It's being looked at. There's 11 of them. That right there is what people want to know.

Did you make a video on that? I mean, we've made lots of videos. I update every...

I'm saying that's

That's the first Monday of every month. I update every project in the city on my Monday morning with the manager, and we have a projects page on the website. And Tim Fontaine asked me about the lift station hardening project every single time he sees me. So he makes sure of that. Yes.

Is there a reason why we're not using the loan to do these projects and then awaiting reimbursement?

So I, well, my understanding is if they don't sign off on the plans and all that kind of stuff, then they wouldn't be eligible for reimbursement. So that's my concern.

So they're technically, they're not approved as reimbursable yet. That is correct. That's what we're waiting on from FEMA Region 4.

So, and I think it did get caught up, Commissioner, in the in the partial shutdown of DHS earlier this year. And so we're working, we've made contact with Senator Moody, Senator Scott, and also Congressman Dunn's office to try to push that through, as well as the immediate office of the secretary with DHS. There has been some movement in the last number of weeks. And I'll just speak briefly to Project Storm as well. That's the CDBGDR project funded that is helping us with roughly, very rough numbers, about 50 of our lift stations. Those are the permanent bypass pumps. The 50 that were identified were identified as critical ones that need it. But you saw the numbers. We have 140 lift stations. The short answer is no, Commissioner. We don't have enough money yet right now to fix all 140 lift stations. So we prioritize them. But Clint and Carlos and their teams have to regularly, you know, triage situations and challenges in order to keep the wastewater moving. to keep it out of the streets and keep it out of our homes and businesses. So we continue to work hard on trying to find additional grants. We have gotten additional CDBGDR money and been able to add additional work. I think y'all approved, what, roughly 350,000 at the last meeting for Project Storm to do some additional work. So the permanent bypass pumps are great because in the event that we do lose commercial power, those 50 or so roughly... lift stations will keep moving that wastewater without relying on commercial power. And I also think, you know, there was a number of the Project Storm, in addition to getting the permanent bypass pumps, they also got the SCADA system. So it's a huge upgrade, but when you have 140 lift stations, you know, it's going to take a little more time and continue to look for grants, continue to look for funding opportunities, and then also prioritizing some of the key ones in their own operational budget as we move forward.

Yes, sir. What are you depreciating? What apparatus? What are you depreciating?

They're a proprietary fund, so they have depreciation on their assets, capitalize all their assets. So it's not just lift stations. It's the wastewater treatment plants. It's their vehicles. It's all their equipment that gets capitalized.

Okay. Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

All right, ready to move on? We'll talk about the laboratory. Oh, I hadn't gone over that. Thank you, sir. Laboratory is cost center 3653. Since October 2025, it's collected 5,500 samples and conducted 15,600 tests. We are actively modernizing and replacing dated equipment. And as of Tuesday over this week, we just were able to hire a new superintendent of the lab. His name is Jamie Grand Prix. He comes to us from the Florida Rural Water Association. And before that, he was actually a director of public works in Utah.

I don't know, did Jamie make it today?

No? Okay. But he brings a lot of experience to the table, including water and wastewater and reclaimed wastewater use, which is finally referred to as Purple Pipe. We are looking into doing some of that up in P.C. North, so he'll be a great asset for the team, and we're excited to have him on board. Next slide. This is our fog program. We also refer this as to our environmental compliance. This is Hannah's team. which has herself, the manager, and two inspectors. We've also worked very closely with Vicki and our HR team to accommodate restricted duty employees who are assigned light duty for various different things. And because we do a lot of data entry, we do a lot of routine inspections. And so depending on their restrictions, we can actually put them to work. So at any one time, you might see four or five light duty employees down in Room 10, helping Hannah and her team out. Her team ensures FDEP compliance with 3,700 backflows, almost 20,000 utility connections, and 262 FOG devices. I think you're aware FOG stands for fog for, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That's oils and grease. And, uh, you know, just as if you were at your house pouring basin, uh, bacon grease down your, your drain, you're going to have problems. Same, same process here. You don't want to put oils and grease in our system. It'll cause the same type of problem. So Hannah does a great job. Oh, we have a question from our, from our mayor.

Thank you. I love a good grease trap.

How many do you have?

I have like three or four at this point. I'd really like to see us... I spent months of my life researching grease traps because of the city a few years ago. Very thankful for that. I want to see our grease trap fog ordinance move into recommending... and incentivizing hydro mechanical grease traps they're smaller they're more efficient they don't have to store as much because they're just better at processing the liquids and you know the and I have not I'm not aware of how we currently handle inspections but oftentimes municipalities will do the grease police and they just show up and they surprise you and I love that They don't tell you, a lot of cities don't tell you how much capacity they have. They say, you just have to meet your flow rate. And if we stop by and your grease tub's full at any point in time, you're going to get fined. There's no, we don't show up on a regular schedule. We just surprise you. And that thing better not be overflowing, bypassing the system. And I don't know if that's, I don't know if we moved that process or not.

Mr. Mayor, so if I get that correctly, the size of your trap or it doesn't really matter as long as you've got the necessary like freeboard, if you will. Correct. And that way it makes it a business decision between the grease hauler, how much they're coming to you and how much you're investing in that trap, correct?

Correct. The storage capacity should be on the owner, not the city. The city's created a term called drain capacity. just drain function unit where they how many plates of food do you serve and how many hours you're open and try to predict your capacity it's on the business owner if we stop by and it's full you get a fine period so and we would be on the more of a hey here's a recommendation but you can do what you want yeah i mean i agree i put in grease traps as well and it's weird that traffic counts are involved in our grease trap calculations

Yeah, that's one of the things the team and I and Clint and Stacy and Hannah are working on. She's got a proposed revision to the fog ordinance as well that more goes between that and I think it's backflows too.

How many cars that go by a business doesn't affect how much grease they have? Okay. Depends on the car.

Anyway, Jonathan tasked us with doing that and kind of going get to a what's the minimum compliance standards, and that's what we're looking to do.

Yeah, for example, you know, if you've got a business, technically a commercial property, but, you know, it's got like, you know, two bathrooms, you know, two single hole bathrooms and a little kitchenette. Like there's no no risk to that. So, you know backflow preventer, you know wouldn't be necessary So that was one of the four or five key project areas this year to make sure that we were doing minimal yet appropriate Enforcement for both fog and for the backflow prevention cross-contamination Concerns with our city and and there's best practices that that we've inspected for and asked owners to do things in the past We're just going to share those best practices with them.

I

Yeah, I believe Miami-Dade has some of the highest standards for grease traps, and they're all HGIs for various reasons.

Mr. Mayor, we do actually have those as part of our revision. I believe that it is worked in there. When it was first created in 2019, there was very little data on HGIs. So since then, that has been revised, and it's something that we very frequently deal with.

I love it. And the department's gotten much better to work with than when we opened history class in 2018. It was a nightmare.

That is a direct result of Hannah's leadership.

Awesome. All right, moving on. All right. This is a very high-level look at the overall FY27 budget. The budget is – overall budget is below what's suggested in the rate study. There is a significant increase in operating costs, but that is offset by reduction in the capital cost request. But the capital costs do reflect on and focus on modernization of lift stations and lift station remodels. So that's the one issue you can see the rate studies suggest a budget of 36Million, but it was completed and we're at currently on paper. We're at 35Million.

I want to make sure 33 given us 33. okay.

So, I want to make sure that I'm understanding this budgets based upon our, our water and sewer bills. Is that correct? Okay. So there's 23% is going into just maintaining billing and admin.

yeah that's higher than our water charges to the county get there they get charged out of 3620. so what we pay the county for water service comes out of that seven million dollars okay so that needs to change that's like that's where the admin thing comes in

What do you want to know? Yeah, like this, so 6320, you said billing and customer service. How is water usage?

Billing and customer service are water usage to the county. We pay for that out of that cost.

So, how do I know what we're actually utilizing to actually administrate the system? Like customer service, like, how much are we spending on customers?

I don't know. The meter readers used to be in there as well. They're now in underground.

Are there any people in that one?

Yes, there are people in billing and customer service. Our customer service reps are in there.

Where are they?

They're in that cost center.

So how much do we pay our customer service reps?

It's it's a part of that. I mean, that's that's the whole cost.

That's why I'm asking for it to be a different place. You can break it out though, right? Yeah, you can absolutely break it down further. This is just the top line.

Our payment to Bay County is the line item in the budgets you were provided. It's in the 53, it's in the 53, 400 cost center. It's a line item on its own.

I'm sorry the 53, 400 account. What's the income that covers that 7 million net?

It's our water and sewer charges.

Some of it, but we don't get income back from sitting selling and that goes into our water and sewer charges revenue. But what is that? Not income should cover this expense.

That's correct. I think you have it right there on your budget worksheet.

Do you have revenues and I'm using my okay. Okay.

The detail utilities budget that we emailed out to you guys. I'm sorry. What was the question?

Trash and garbage.

That's a separate fund.

I know. But does the income from that cover the massive expense it takes to operate that?

The garbage fund?

Yes, ma'am.

Yes, yes. And trash. It does cover the operations of the environmental services fund.

You're asking if they're profitable?

Yes.

I'm asking, yes. They are, okay? But I want to know what the income is. If it's costing $33 million to operate this thing, what's it costing? What are we making on these cost centers total?

This doesn't have revenue. These are just expenditures. I know. And so I think your budget worksheet there, I believe, had revenue.

Yeah. What I'm asking is actually a different question than what Robbie's asking. I'm asking because, I mean, historically, we've had trouble keeping... Customer service agents in our utilities department and so I just want to know how much we're investing into them, but I can't see that because you'd rather see it split out. No different.

I mean, whenever you look at the 3620 cost center, it's broken out in our proposed budget that you will be getting. It is salaries and wages with a personnel schedule that tells you the positions that are budgeted within that. And so you can clearly see what the personnel costs are for 3620. The water charges are an operating expense charge. So that's in that separate section. It's not part of personnel. So you will be able to see what just our personnel costs. I was going to pull up what it is for fiscal year 26 currently. just to give you an idea.

Yeah, that would be helpful. And why I'm asking is not to, I mean, at first glance, it looks like we're spending 23% of the overall water budget to actually administrate the water system, which would be the highest administration cost of any system I've ever heard of. But what you're explaining makes sense. I just don't know how that's billing and customer service. It seems like to me that should be something different, like water charges.

Well, you know, I mean, that that we can move it to wherever you want it to be moved, sir. Well, I just the personnel services cost for 3620 for fiscal year 2026 for 551,989 dollars. For the utility billing and customer service, 500,000 dollars. Correct. So. The other current contractual services that we paid for the water charges out of, that budget for 26 was almost $5.8 million.

So $5.8 million of this number is associated with just water costs.

Pay in Bay County for our water. Mm-hmm.

That would be helpful to see that separately, because now I actually feel like we're under-investing in our actual customer service elementary. This is a summary.

This is a summary. That's a completely different question. In our proposed budget, it will be like that.

Commissioner Granger asked how many employees are on that team.

For billing and customer service?

How many are allocated, I should say.

I believe it's. Or the number you just gave us. Let me tell you, I believe it's 10.

10. 10 for 500. Correct. And that's the full wrap.

Cool. Full thing, benefits and everything, personnel, salaries. The lab, let me look that up.

It's the same.

How many employees sits for the lab?

So you get 560,000, I mean 590,000.

The lab employee is going to caution more. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, they have to, like our laboratory superintendent.

Well, no wonder why I get complaints that somebody's unhappy on the other end of the line. I'm just saying.

Customer service reps are our lowest graded in our lowest grade.

i would like to see us take some time and and granted i'm not asking for this before we move move forward to the next thing but this is a not sustainable system like when when we are investing that amount into the people they're actually we are your customer support right now for your water system and i don't know if anybody can relate to that but that's what it feels like to me i think it's a great idea i think we should do a rate like a study to figure out how much

how much our staff salaries meet with salaries in other places, because we're hearing a trend where, you know,

folks are leaving the city to go to other places for better pay and I've heard that from from this department heard it from other departments as well I think I think we're seeing as a trend in the positions that are open and this is not any one department it is those that are the boots on the ground the ones that are day-to-day You know, doing grunt work is where it's most difficult for us to retain. And so I think there should be focus on that specific piece because there is. Yeah, that's that's going to be a challenge.

I will say Charlotte's doing a wonderful job. We have 1 vacant position that I'm holding on because of budget, but they have not had an issue filling or recruiting for that team.

That's good. That's good to hear. Well, I know when I first got into this, I thought that the directors could just decide how much to pay the team. And that is not the case. So that's all decided basically by us through city manager and H.R.,

I am working with Vicki and the HR staff to take a close look at that. We were kind of isolated to the positions that we're having trouble with, CDL drivers, mechanics, but we certainly can expand that look if you feel it appropriate.

Yeah, and I mean other options too. I mean we're talking about retail service for the county. Maybe there's some better system of doing it than what we're doing it now. But if I did the math on that, you know, as far as what your administration is, it would be, I don't think it's a percent. I mean, I think it's less than that. And I mean...

The city recently, a few years ago, went through a salary study, correct? And it was at that time that we implemented the step increases grades and step in 2021.

But I don't think these were a part of that. Did we do it?

We did not do a salary in 2021 October 2021 is when we implemented the grade and staff program. That was not based on a salary? No, ma'am. In my opinion, most salary study programs basically involve between $20,000 and $30,000 to get a salary study, and they contact all of the counties and the cities around them. They package that up, and they sell it back to the next city and county. So we did our own review of what other people were paying in our general area, but we did not hire a third-party company. We did it in-house. but so a salary study was done i can't call it a salary study ma'am because i'm not that is not my expertise technically but i will tell you we have pardon me sir you're not a doctor correct but i will tell you ma'am we definitely called other places said what do you pay for mechanics what do you pay for equipment operators we did review that much like we do that on a regular basis you know i just sent jonathan numbers on mechanics that i got two weeks ago from the county and i would dare say they've changed since 2021. yes ma'am and so have we though i would definitely say we keep ourselves mobile back to brandy's point customer service representatives we have one vacancy and we have no problems filling those positions we have not had an issue filling those in quite some time

How much are they paying?

That is going to be at our base rate. It depends upon the experience of the person. It is an entry level position. It is a grade four, I believe, position, which is where our entry level is. But I would say the reality is those folks do have the ability to continue to grow in those positions. And sometimes they transfer to other departments as they continue their growth. It's intended to be entry level when the person comes in. basic skill set. Charlotte does a wonderful job mentoring folks, educating folks, bringing their skills up. It's much like our administrative assistants. That pay would be a minimum of $1,607 and it caps out at, it's 3% per step and there's 16 steps.

So it's easier to hire that person and the same pay out in the heat. You can't fill that one. That's the one that you can't fill because we're not paying enough.

Can you identify some job categories that you're having difficulty filling?

I would say CDL operators is one of our biggest categories, but I am not of the opinion that it's solely pay-related. I believe that that is an area where fewer people are going into that area, and it is much more difficult to get a CDL in the state of Florida than it used to be. The expectations are higher, the process is more complicated, and you have to have additional credentials to actually get a CDL. Used to be just a few-month process, now it's closer to a year-long process.

I would say electricians as well.

Electricians is definitely one. We certainly had some struggles finding electricians. We currently have two vacancies, three vacancies in electricians at this point in time. That is definitely. We do partner with Haney. I sit on their advisory board. They're, you know, just an advisory board. And we certainly partner with Haney when we can and we lean into those opportunities. But that's another prime example. Thank you, Brandi.

So is there a reduced number of people becoming electricians? Is that part of the problem? That is.

It's the standard thing you see. Fewer people are going into direct trades, but we are certainly leveraging everywhere we can.

But for the first time in history, Amy has all

They're doing a wonderful job out there. And they provide folks with an excellent education, and we certainly have hired folks directly from Haney before. We've worked with them on their class schedules. If they need to be in class in the mornings, then we adjust schedules to make sure they can make class. If they need to be in class on Monday and Tuesday, okay, well, let's skew their hours different days of the week to work with the team.

Is there anybody that you can take that we have now and incentivize them to get a CDL? Like, they pay for it in Fawcett, and we pay them back.

Like, something like that. We have done some of that. I can't say that I can identify a candidate right now, but it looks like. Well, I don't want to name by name. I'm just saying. Charles, do you have something?

Yeah. Referring back to what you said earlier, we did have one person on our litter crew, which was a maintenance worker. She took the test, got her permit, we provided the training, and she got her CDL, moved up to an Operator 1, and she is now an Operator 2. And we have another one that's in the process of doing that.

That's right. That's a cross-trained employee. And we provided the CDL training in-house, correct?

Yes. They have to take the permit. And after they get the permit, then we can step up from there. We pay for the class, the modules, which is online, then eventually the CDL test itself. We have one success story so far. We've got two more in the works. Love it.

I just I think just to bring home the point, though, I mean, it was like a one year process. A lot of senior staff used a lot of objective data comparisons to create the grade system. Commissioner Lucas to make sure that, you know, the jobs were in the right grade from one through grade 26. We continue to reevaluate and reassess that as time has gone on.

uh with the positions and happy to take a look at the customer service but thank you for that reminder because where i was going with that was that time marches on yes and so um we whereas where we were in five years ago um if we are not able to keep our salaries up we're losing the plan the plan was part of the plan was to each year as we adjust um our in duke

COLAs per the CPI, we would adjust our plan for that amount to try to keep up with the market. Did we do that last year? Well, we didn't do a COLA, so we did not do that last year.

That's the first year we have not done that.

And I will just add to that we also mirrored at the time, this was a plan that the county was looking at adopting. And so we got it from them and worked with that to come up with our own plan. But they have since adopted a similar grades and steps system as well.

And I do believe that the grading steps that we have in place are accurate. I do believe that predominantly they are in parity with each other. And what I mean by that is, for example, customer service representatives, I do believe the skill set and the attributes of that position is very similar to an administrative assistant. And so that parity exists between those two because a great deal of the functionality is very similar. Our admin assistants are the folks that are picking up the phones and greeting our citizens and having that very engaged customer service which is why that parity exists so we spent a substantial amount of time as jonathan said randy jared myself and the former hr director met for weeks on end every friday afternoon we spent together poking holes in the system debating what we would do to break it and trying to solve those problems and i do believe we built a very good system for the long haul as long as we continue to mirror the economics and continue to have CPI increases, COLA increases, and maintain those steps. If we don't maintain the steps and we don't maintain the COLA, clearly, to your point, Commissioner Lucas, we would fall behind. Last year was, to your point, Commissioner Street, the first year we didn't do the COLA piece since the system has been implemented in 21. Thank you. You're welcome.

All right. Move on. We are looking at alternative revenue sources. This is throughout public works in general. I think most of, you know, back in January 1st of the last year, we started charging for our right away use per permits before that. We did not charge for those, but we found ourselves spending a considerable amount of resources, both approving these permits and inspecting. So we took it before the commission and started that back in 2025. Year to date, for this fiscal year, we've collected approximately $150,000 in fees. That's approximately 500 permits. Stacy's done a great job with that. She is the one in charge of this program. And so that's a success story for us. Other things we're looking at besides that, is septage receiving station, bulk water station, food truck commissaries. policy and fines for damaging city infrastructure, and we do that a little bit already through our right-of-way use permits. I think at the last Commission meeting on Tuesday, you approved allocation of a check for $230,000 back into the utility, primarily the utility funds, for reimbursement of expenses we had to make repairs associated with that boring hit that we took. inspection fees and private lift station inspection and maintenance programs are things that we're looking at. So with that,

Let me just add something about the right away use permit fees. I mean, I think this is probably been 1 of the most successfully implemented and executed programs in my time since becoming the city manager. Not only has it covered pretty much all of miss Roush's salary and cost to the city. And most of the deputy city engineers as well, it has given us the ability to understand with the communications challenges with the 1 company aside, it's given us a real visibility and awareness into who is working in our right away. I get what are all these flags doing out here? And we've been able to answer those questions in pretty short order. Plus. You know, we make sure if they're planning to do, like if it's a roll-off dumpster, you know, we work with them, hey, you know, don't just drop it in the road. Don't tear up our brand-new asphalt road by putting a dumpster in there. And there are other, you know, fees in that as well. But I think this has been really good because, again, it's allowed us to kind of come alongside both contractors and communications companies that are working on our right-of-way and kind of partner with them in order to protect as best we can our assets out in the field.

And I have two questions. Are we actually, have we collected this amount, or is it still in dispute? No, that's what y'all approved at the last commission meeting.

It was the $150,000 is what we've collected today.

So that's actually collected. So that's not including the disputed amounts with AT&T? Correct. So once that's resolved, it should be more than that. Correct. Yes. That was what I wanted to point out. And we have the rest. no not much nothing we haven't even sent a letter yet

so um no i wanted to add this this helps protect our infrastructure too uh when we know those when when we know those folks are operating in our wide way we we set we set parameters they don't always follow them um but but we we do know who's who's done what to to what pieces so to be clear the only um so far right now the only company that has refused to pay pay right away permits is at t correct

Correct. Thank you. Everyone else has been paying.

Correct.

I believe that is correct.

I did want to mention one other thing. We do set restrictions, so there's a common joke in the public works world and in the city manager world. Somebody's going to find a water main at Friday at 4 p.m. right when the city shuts down. And so we don't, there's certain periods like, hey, Fridays after 2 p.m., you can't operate in the right of way if you're doing underground work. And there's no weekend work or things like that. So we do that so we have maximum resources if something bad does happen. We used to cut water off of them.

residents on Friday afternoons too, so we've made progress.

Cut off days on Thursday. It's just peculiar to me. We've got one vendor that's not paying. Cables. We've got all these issues that we seem to have with telecom, so hopefully we can get a little better relationship working together.

I know the boring piece is inconvenient, but at the end of the day, it does keep Those lines are going underground, so you won't see them hanging off walls.

So I see your examples of income. And I would suggest that before we start looking for income, going through this, I think there's a lot more we can work with. Some big, big numbers in there that I think are just, that's what we do is we put a big number there. y'all, but I mean a big number, let's expand that out. When it's $45,000 and it's office supplies, that's a lot of office supplies, something like that. And I would rather us try to cut first before we charge the citizen first. So let's not lean with that.

We agree. Okay. And the reason, like there's another, the second example under the septage receiving station, we have a lot of private septic haulers that either do septic tank rehab or they're operating portalettes, and they have to drive their trucks to Mariana, and they've been begging us, hey, come up with a system where you can receive our septage or what they're hauling. at one of our wastewater treatment plants because, man, we've got to burn up the road to get rid of it so we can get back to work.

Are they beating up the county and the other cities, or are they just coming to us to spend money?

They've asked us, but that's something that they're willing to pay us for.

We're the only one that has a wastewater treatment plant close by.

Yeah, and they want the 23rd Street plant because it's central to their operation. So they've asked us to do that, and they've said, we'll pay you to dump our sewage so you guys can get a return on your investment.

Okay, what's a food truck commissary?

That's just that's so my understanding is we would create. Oh, great. That's right. I forgot. It's a fall.

Yeah. So food truck commissaries right now, there's a state requirement for you to be licensed when you have a food truck or mobile food dispensing vehicle. When you're discharging any of your dirty dishwater into our sewer lines. Sometimes they have grease removal devices. Sometimes they don't sometimes getting them into a small food truck is very difficult and costly for those trucks so having a location for them to discharge their grease water and Safely have it treated before it enters our sewer system. So it's rainwater It's rainwater coming out like it's the the water coming from their three compartment sinks and like their dirty dish water Yeah, they're gray water.

Yeah, the mayor has his hands up tiny mayor

Tiny man. Hey, so I didn't know if I didn't bring this up. I didn't know if I was going to bring this up previously when we talked about CNG. This was a conversation I had with staff earlier. I'm going to kind of mix the two points along with this slide. We have a very complicated organization in general, in my personal opinion. And just picking on CNG, you know, none of us, I don't think it was our idea to do CNG. But, you know, I see all these cost savings of CNG and we see this slide of revenue. And if CNG is such an amazing thing and we're just the smartest people in the world, how come waste management is not using it? Callaway, all these other, Beach, how come everyone in the county is not using our CNG station for their facilities? And why aren't they saving money and why aren't we making money off of them saving money?

Why does it cost so much to operate?

That's a good question. I worked for a public utility when I first came out of college and I was on the team that kind of put CNG together. At the time, it wasn't very well known. That's been a few years ago, as you would imagine. So I think it's more of a marketing effort. I think we have one of the few local refueling stations around. So I think the TECO is probably reluctant to market that too much just because of the limited refueling opportunities. But that's a very good question. But I have a lot of research that I've done on this particular technology. I'd be happy to share that with you. But it's a win-win at It's less expensive. It's better for the environment. It's better for air quality. And it's better for your engine. So you really, there's a lot of benefits. And that's a good question why more people don't take advantage of that.

Yeah, I would suggest us sending a simple email letter every six months to anyone who could, every fleet, Bay District schools, just reminding them that we have this station. It's ready for them. Whenever you're making equipment purchase, consider CNG. We're happy to discuss refilling costs, all this stuff. Because if it's such a great thing for us, surely everyone else would notice that as well. All right.

It must break a lot to spend $50,000 a year repairing it. Repairing machinery and equipment. At CNG station. Yeah. I'm not.

That might be for our maintenance agreement or something that would get charged to that account. That might be for the maintenance agreement.

That's under contractual services.

I would have to look at what's getting spent out of there.

Just like the street sweeper that's brand new that we got $35,000 attached to it for maintenance, and it's under warranty. It just got bought.

Are you talking about the mini sweeper?

Yeah, some of the things, like the brush heads that have to be replaced, the initial brush heads, it's a wear and tear, so it wouldn't be covered under warranty, but all the mechanical would be.

Some of it, too, are like part of these maintenance agreements that would get charged repairs and maintenance, Commissioner.

Okay, brand new things get repaired under warranty. Not your tires. You don't even get tires. You have to pay for your tires when you get in a wreck to replace all that. Okay. something and acting like it's 10 years old and it's not. Over at the CNG station, we're budgeting for something that sits there, fits in underneath the cover for 50 grand.

Those pumps are, I believe, have to have some kind of annual maintenance. or inspections we should have a contract for that and that should have a number attached and it gets charged to maintenance and repairs per accounting standard why is it not under contractual services where everything else is a contractual service it's all in the way the agreement is worded and what the accounting uniform chart of accounting you know codes tell you to charge it if we're gonna if we're gonna make the budget be the same all the way through

Why don't we make the charges be the same all the way through?

It all depends on how the agreements are worded. Just like some softwares are operating, some softwares are intangible assets, some softwares are subscriptions and they're under books, publications, and memberships. I mean, it just depends on how the particular agreement is worded.

And staff isn't saying we like it. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but we're told, like, we have to. Told by who? The uniform chart of accounts.

It's the uniform chart of accounts.

So you're saying if it doesn't make sense, you're going to follow it anyway.

It's per GASB standards that we have to account for these particular costs certain ways.

What would happen if you didn't follow it? If you just did it however you wanted to do it, what would happen?

I mean, we would not be reporting correctly because, I mean...

But, Brandi, would our auditors get sideways?

We have findings, all kind of findings all over the audit, right?

Because it's not in the right categories. It's the right price and all that, but not the right category.

We're not accounting for them in the right expense accounts.

Sean self logistics director, I just want to mention 1 quick thing about CNG station there. We go out for bid for that periodically with a contract for a company. They have to literally be able to respond within 2 hours because that station is critical to critical to the operation. Not only to us, but if we do get the public to sign up and other businesses and stuff, that station has to be. up and running. Just because there's an allocated amount to that doesn't mean it actually gets charged for the entire year. So, for example, you may have a contract here at City Hall for an elevator service for $6,000 a year. That is the anticipation of the damage that could happen if I don't budget for that. And then something happens with the elevator, which periodically it does, then I don't have the money to repair that elevator. And so sometimes you'll see a contract like that. And I don't want to use the word standby contract, but that's kind of what it is. It's a standby so that if that station goes down, we have someone secured, and they will be here within two hours to support his team and make sure that station gets running again. Doesn't mean we're going to fully utilize that amount of money, though, if that makes sense. But we could. It just depends.

All right. Next slide. Yeah. Oh, that's it? Oh, well, the next slide was supposed to be question and answer. So I think we're... You've done a good job answering those questions. All right. We're good. Yeah, we're good. Okay. Yeah, you did a good job. Thank you very much. Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys.

Thank you so much. All right, Mayor, Commissioners, next is Housing and Community Services. And we have Ms. Sheila Ware, the director of that department, here to give that presentation. Ms. Ware?

Good afternoon, Mayor and Commissioners. Today, I'm going to provide an overview of the Housing and Community Services Department, explain how we fulfill our mission for assisting families in obtaining safe, decent, sanitary, and affordable housing through the programs that we offer. We'll review the SHIP program, the CDBG program, and then our ASAP program. Housing currently has three full-time employees with one vacant position. Our ASAP program, which is under housing also, they have two full-time employees and two part-time positions with one vacant opening. Next slide. This is a list of all the different programs that the city offers through the housing department. And our next slide are the partnerships that we have through different agencies. We couldn't list everyone, so we do have probably another page of partnerships that we partner agencies that we work with. We sometimes assist them directly with assistance through rental assistance. Florida Housing Coalition, of course, is one of our agencies through the state. Goodwill, we do rental assistance for them, of course, HUD, and then all of our other partner agencies that we do referrals also through. I thought it was important to give you a little background on how SHIP was started with the city. SHIP is the acronym for the State Housing Initiative Partnership Program, which was created in 1992 under the William Sadowski Affordable Housing Act, with funding allocations determined by population and documentary stamp revenue collections. The City of Panama City originally administered both the SHIP and CDBG programs, which is the Community Block Development Program, in-house until 1995. when program management was briefly outsourced. In 1997, the City Commission voted to bring the program administration back under the City to better serve local residents and strengthen oversight. Today, 47 of the 49 cities that received SHIP funding administer their programs in-house. During the late 1990s and early 2000s, Panama City's low to moderate income neighborhoods saw minimal residential investment. To confront the longstanding lending disparities, a coalition of local financial institutions which included AmSouth Bank, Bay Bank, First Florida, First National Northwest Florida, People's First, South Trust, and SunTrust, formed a Bay Consortium for Community Development known as the BCCD in 1997. The consortium expanded access to mortgage financing for low to moderate income households by adopting more flexible underwriting standards and fair appraisal practices, helping families purchase homes in communities where they lived and worked. And as you know, during that time, there was a lot of redlining going on with the lenders, so there was no way you could really, in the city, obtain a fair appraisal in the low to moderate income areas. The Housing Department worked diligently with each lender to adjust their underwriting guidelines, eliminate the barriers, and ensure applicants who had historically been excluded could qualify for sustainable mortgage financing. As national agencies such as Fannie Mae and FHA later eased their own requirements and several participating banks were acquired, the BCCD successfully completed its mission and ultimately dissolved. Many lenders continued to work independently by developing affordable housing, in-house loan products that supported ongoing local initiatives. The housing department also collaborated with SunTrust to design a specialized in-house portfolio loan program for SHIP applicants who encountered obstacles with traditional FHA findings. This partnership alone broadened the community impact, opened pathways to homeownership for many low- to moderate-income families, and enhanced the availability of affordable housing opportunities throughout Panama City. So that's how we arrive at where we are today. Next slide, Jared. I also thought it was important to go back to the funding sources that we have had through the Housing and Community Services Program. In 2020, the COVID relief funds were released. Bay County received $1.2 million in COVID relief funds. The city was responsible for administering those funds. 319 households were assisted with that program, and that provided rental and mortgage assistance to help families stay in their homes and stay in their rental properties. Panama City was awarded $495,000 during that time period. 158 households were assisted with rental and mortgage assistance. So it was a total of 1.6 million that came to the city that was administered by HCS. 470 households, 77 households were assisted. Then in 2020 and 2021, we received disaster assistance funds. $892,000 was awarded to Bay County, which 94 households were assistance with rehabilitation repairs to their homes throughout Bay County. With that allocation, the city was awarded more this time than the county because normally we receive the lesser amount. We received $1.6 million. 203 households were assisted with rehab repairs to bring their homes up to code. In 2022, we received Hurricane Michael housing recovery funds. We received $8.4 million. We assisted 186 households with that. We received $4.2 million for the county. And we assisted 132 households with the funds from the county, which was basically purchase assistance. The economic impact on the county's funds that we received with purchase assistance was $19 million. In 2021, HHRP2 was released. And that was the second phase of the hurricane recovery funds. The city received 2.6 million. We were able to assist 56 households. So our total economic impact of purchase assistance during that time period was $30 million with our hurricane funds. When you look at the next slide, the SHIP funding allocations, go back one more, go back, okay. This shows from 23, 24, 24, 25, 25, 26, and then we have our 26, 27 allocation. As you can see, we're back to basics with the program. I looked at back to 2011 on funding we received, funding that the city has received with the SHIP program. We have received as little as $14,000 in one year back in 2012, 2013. We are receiving more money than we have in the past. In 23, 24 was our highest amount we've ever received was 423 in our annual allocation. This year we're slated to receive 266,951. Is that a million? No, thousands. So the program has been able to sustain with the minimal amounts that we've received with our annual allocations. We have requirements set aside that we have to meet with the funding that we receive. So with that funding going to 26-27, we have to address our different income categories. A minimum of 65% of the funds that are awarded to us must be spent on home ownership activities. And 75% of the funds must be on eligible construction activities. The construction activities include rehabilitation, purchase assistance that is new construction. At least 30% of the funds are reserved for very low income households, which are 50% less an additional 30% are reserved for low income up to 80%. And then the remainder, which is normally about 1020%, we can spend on moderate income, which is pretty much the workforce housing from 120 to 140%. 10% is reserved for admin. Also, if we receive program income, someone pays back their mortgage that they have on the property, or if land is sold, that is considered program income, and we're able to utilize those funds also. We're estimating this year, at least we're hoping to receive at least a minimum of $100,000 in program income, but I'm hoping that that will be a lot more than that if we're able to sell some of the available lots that we have. some of the larger parcels. Next slide. This is a slide of the income categories. Everyone that applies for the program, you have to meet the income limits. Right now, we're only accepting applications for 50 and 80% because we are out of moderate funds. And also, it shows what the rent limits are for the area, which is considered affordable rent.

Next slide.

Okay, our owner-occupied rehab program, and we do have quite a few strategies. I want to say we have 10 strategies. I'm going to hit on the ones that we use the most. And we have determined that these are the ones that clients come in and apply for. So those are the ones that we have funded through the program, through the allocation. Some of the strategies that we have listed in our LHAP, like I said, there's about 10. We are mandated by the state that we have to list those strategies. So we can't say that we don't want to do rehab anymore. We don't want to do purchase assistance. It's mandated by the state that we do those. Disaster assistance is listed on there. Even though we don't have the money, we have to have it in our LHAP. The state requires that. So that's why there are so many strategies listed and all of them are not funded. But you have to have the ability to do them if someone comes in and asks for it. Or if we receive disaster money, we have to have that line item already in our LHAP. Owner-occupied rehab. This strategy is typically used by elderly clients, disabled individuals on limited income that they're in need of a repair. In this situation, this was a veteran. And yes, he was a veteran. We think that there are all these programs out there for veterans. Well, that was not the case in this individual situation. Their home was damaged through Hurricane Michael. It sat that way for probably about four years. He was unable to get any repairs done. He worked with his insurance company, received very little funds. We went in, he was not able to apply for any veteran's loans. There was no assistance available for him. He came to the program, we went in, we mitigated. As you can see, there was mold in the home. We had to mitigate the mold. If a client does have funds that they can put towards the repairs to the home, we do utilize that. They bring to the table whatever they have. So we partnered with him. He had about 25,000 that he could invest that he received from the insurance company. We use that plus our rehab assistance funds and we were able to get his home up to standards. He also had wind up having a. code violations, and we were able to stop his property from going to the hearing. We were able to get the magistrate to give him time to have the home repaired. So we saved him probably about $30,000 in fines that he would have paid. Also with rehab, we have the emergency assistance program. And with the emergency assistance program, we have a lot of elderly that if their air conditioning goes out, they just, on social security income, they do not, that's a repair that they cannot afford. We recently had an individual that we went in to do repairs. She needed a handicap accessible shower. She was not able to get back to get in her bathtub. So we went in and we did that. We completed that repair for her. But while we were there, we noticed that there were some electrical issues. She had extension cords running all through the house. So, 1 thing we're doing for 2027 is we are enhancing our emergency assistance program to make in rehab to include. We partnered with and we're doing extensive energy efficiency. Um, work ups for every property that's going through the program to make sure that the clients have the things that they need to so that they can receive the lowest electric bill possible. So they'll go in and change out the shower heads. They'll go in and put the light bulbs in. So they have partnered with us and agreed to do that on every property that we have. Next slide, demolition reconstruction. This is a program that if a homeowner is in a substandard home, And as you can see, this was substandard. But they were still trying to live there. So we went in, demolished the home, and had a new home built for them. Most of the time, this is also an elderly individual. One of the most recent ones that we had, we had an individual in her 70s, hardworking lady, works 40 hours a week. When I went in the home to do the inspection, she was taking a shower and using a storage bin was what she used for a shower. So we knew we had to come in and also she had her daughter living outside in a storage shed and was running the electrical wires to the storage shed. So in this particular case, her home was demolished. And it was rebuilt and then also we were able to place the daughter in 1 of our affordable rentals. Purchase assistance, new construction since 2020 has provided over 6 and a half million dollars in down payment and closing cost assistance assisted 127 families resulting in the economic impact of 26.2Million dollars. From 2020 to 2022, we provided 4.2M dollars in down payment assistance and closing costs to Bay County assisted 134 families, and that resulted in a 19.2M dollar economic impact. So, total family served to date by the program. Is 261 families with a total economic impact of 45M dollars. Okay, our last one is, well not last one, infill housing. This is just an example of some of the homes that have been built on the city's infill lots that we have, and we have 31 lots that have been utilized for the program. Next slide. This is a family who went through the infill housing program, elderly couple who never thought that they would be able to obtain home ownership. Next slide is 2026 year to date figures. We've received 166 applications. 139 of those were rental assistance, 16 for purchase assistance, owner-occupied rehab and emergency repairs, seven. Foreclosure prevention is four. Total clients that have been actually serviced, they may not have all received monetary assistance, is 141. We received about, year-to-date, about 3,016 phone calls, and we have had about 790 walk-ins. Our mission is to, if we are not able to assist the client when they come in, is to give them a path forward. A lot of people don't qualify for the program, but that's when we reach out to our partners because we don't want people to leave the office discouraged and feel like there's no hope. It takes a lot for someone to come into the office and to even make the phone call to see if assistance is available. Next slide. CDBG. In 1978, the city of Panama City became a direct entitlement community, direct entitlement community, and was eligible to receive community development block grant from the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Funding activities with CDBG funds require that the project meet a national objective first in order to be able to be funded. The national objectives include benefit low to moderate income, the elimination and prevention of slum and blight, or meet an urgent need. It also has to qualify as an eligible activity through HUD. Housing activities qualify, rehab of residential properties, public service, economic development, infrastructure improvements. And the funding restrictions that we have with those are 20% max can go to administrative fees. 15% max for public service, so we're capped at that, at the 15% for public service. There is no limit on the remainder of the funds which we use for public facilities and or infrastructure. Examples of things that have been completed over the years through the CDBG program, the Glenwood ASAP Center, the Glenwood Community Center, job training programs, housing, infrastructure projects throughout the city, paving projects, sidewalks, multiple parks in the city limits, to name a few, Daffin Park, Henry Davis Park, Oak Hammock Park, public service activities, fair housing activities. Recently, the fire truck that was purchased for Station 3 at 2103 East 6th Street, which is still in production, we were one of the first in the state to be able to purchase a fire truck for their municipality. And most recently, the new paving project that we're working on. Next slide. Okay, this is a look at our CDBG allocations, what we received for 2025, $360,009. 20% went to general admin. Then we have a public service, which is our ASAP center, which they received 15% of that, of the allocation. And then public facilities and infrastructure is where we divide the remainder up. These are percentages are allowable through HUD, and they're the ones that set the amounts that you can spend. Our 2026 allocation was $437,152. We have the 20% for admin, our public service amount, and then the remainder will be going into public facilities, which is helping with our paving projects. Projects that we have in the pipeline for CDBG, we are finishing out Daffin Park. We have about $40,000 left to expend at Daffin Park. Public facilities, our Glenwood ASAP playground, we are working on that. We were delayed with that from last year with the completion of the MLK Rec Center, but now we're able to ramp that back up, so that should be completed, we're hoping, by the end of the year. infrastructure paving projects, and those are the streets that we are looking at that we are in the process of paving. And thank you to Clint's group. They're working hard on getting all those completed for us. So going into 2027, we will revamp our paving projects and look at additional streets that are in the low-mod area. Next slide shows a demonstration of what Dappin Park will look like once it's fully completed. And I think we're down to just the lights being left to be completed. And then the Glenwood ASAP. So those are the improvements we're doing there with the playground. Okay, last program that we have is ASAP. Our after-school assistance program was created in June 1993 by the Panama City Police Department and began in the Panabilla Apartments Housing Complex. In 1998, the city purchased the old Neota Motel located in Glenwood through CDBG funding and constructed a new facility at 726 East 14th Court. Construction was completed on that facility in 2000. With strong support from community partners including the City of Panama City, Housing and Urban Development, the Junior Service League, 4-H, One Positive Place, Rural American, and many other community partners, ASAP now provides services at two neighborhood-based sites, 1804 Flower Avenue in St. Andrews and 726 East 14th Court in Glenwood. Nationally, Panama City experiences higher levels of youth vulnerability, greater poverty concentration, limited access to affordable after-school care, and stronger academic and safety concerns than other cities of similar size in the state. ASAP directly responds to these elevated needs with structured supervision, free healthy snacks, mandatory homework assistance, structured and targeted enrichment programs, and multi-agency coordination, providing a deeper, more tailored community impact than most national programs. It remains one of the few affordable after-school programs in the city, providing reliable daily support to working families. ASAP is also DCF licensed. From summer of 25 through the 25-26 school year, ASAP has serviced a total of 94 children. 26 are enrolled for the 26th summer enrollment year or enrollment. 45 are in attendance at Glenwood site and 23 are enrolled at our Panavilla site.

Just one moment. The mayor has his hand up. Oh, sure.

Go ahead, Mr. Mayor.

Hey, can you go back to the playground?

Yes, sir. Yes.

Okay. So go back to the previous one. So based on the numbers, we have 23 kids in this facility. Why wouldn't they just use the playground at the rec right there?

That side has 45. Okay.

Why wouldn't we just use the playground or add to the playground facility? at the MLK Rec where everyone can use it all the time, even a basketball court. Why wouldn't we have, like, to me, or is there no fence? I mean, is this facility open to the public as well? No.

ASAP, because it's a HUD, we receive CDBG funds to construct the Glenwood ASAP. And because of the DCF licensing, correct me if I'm wrong, Terry, they have to, the students that attend that, attend ASAP have to be in a fenced-in playground and monitored by the ASAP staff.

Okay, they can't use the playground across the street or across the parking lot?

No.

No.

And it's not fenced also, is my understanding.

It's not entirely fenced.

Yeah, and it has to be entirely closed. These children, what are their ages? The ages are from 6 to 13.

So that means they're elementary school age. Yes, elementary school. And just as in the school district, what it requires for elementary school children is additional requirements.

Yes, yes.

Interesting.

The ASAP's hours are from 2 to 5.30, Monday through Friday. And then during the summer, we're open from 8 to 3. Now, with the 2 to 530, of course, if children need additional need, if a parent needs us to be there until 6 o'clock, we do, you know, we accommodate them. We're not going to have someone have to take off work so they can, you know, pick their child up at 530. So staff is very accommodating with that. And the same thing with our summer hours. So moving into 2027 projects that we have underway, we are partnering with, we have a partnership with the Boys and Girls Club. We are assisting them with technical support to complete their environmental review and for the HUD grant that they've received for rebuilding their new facility. We're partnering with the Panama City Housing Authority to develop a cottage court in two different locations. Partnering with Acorns Children's Society on a youth homelessness grant that could bring in up to a million dollars to prevent youth homelessness. 21st Century Grant, we have applied for that for the ASAP Center. We are awaiting approval, but that grant could be in excess of $350,000 for that facility. We're continuing our efforts to decrease land inventory within the city on available lots that we have throughout the housing program, continuing our efforts to try to establish a local housing trust fund so that more funds can be available to the citizens of Panama City directly. No, ma'am. Sorry. continue in our efforts with our paving project. We're working with ARCA and the Bay of trying to provide supportive needs for housing with them. And we're continuously looking at grant opportunities for the citizens of the city in collaboration with the other partner agencies. Also, this year, for the first time, ASAP has been working on this for a long time, trying to establish a music program. And we were successful. We received a grant for that. So this summer, they were able to provide music to the students that are enrolled with the site. And we're hoping to be able to continue that through the school year.

Sheila, it's my understanding that, for lack of a better term, ASAP was putting ramp time out for a little while.

Yes, sir.

And we've gotten out of that.

We, what we, the 21st Century Grant that we applied for, we applied for that under the city. So any grants that we are applying for now, we are applying under the cities, in the city of Panama City.

Okay. So is there a timeline where ASAP can do that again, or have you always done it through the city?

I think it's, I think Jan Smith recommended that we just do it through the city. That way funds are received by the clerk's office.

Yes. Yeah, there was a problem.

Yes.

Right.

That's why I was asking if we're out of time.

Yeah. We did. Yes. Yes, sir. On the operational cost for ASAP, ASAP, we did a conservative approach for 25-26. ASAP costs, and this is all grant funds, we estimated about $300,000 for ASAP last year. However, I think, Brandi, correct me if I'm wrong, it's about $245,000 was our amount that we wound up having to reimburse the city for, and those funds are reimbursed from the friends of ASAP. ASAP is not a direct cost to the city. The only funding they receive from the city would be through our CDBG grant, which is at 15% for public service.

So why are you writing a check to the city?

Because payroll is coming out of the city. And we are reimbursing them from the Friends of ASAP for this year. And then the following year, we have enough money reserved to run ASAP for the next five years with the $1.4 million that is in the nonprofit that was set aside for ASAP.

So this is where we diverge. Basically, Friends of ASAP has how much money?

So the Friends of ASAP Inc., that is the defunct nonprofit that's in shutdown right now. It's currently being shut down still. That has about $375,000. And then the I'm sorry, the proceeds, the sale, and all the recovery of the Michael Johnson stuff was deposited into the city's, the non-profit, the meeting you guys just had yesterday, or sorry.

The Panama City Community Fund.

Panama City Community Fund. I always want to call it the Hurricane Relief Fund, excuse me. And that was, when that was accepted, it was like earmarked for the benefit of the ASAP, and it was very generic.

Pretty specific. I felt like it was very specific. I was here at that point in time that we've got kids that are in an apartment over on the hill. And so I'm partnering with One Positive Place. The money was supposed to be put together to be able to stand up their own facility that's over there. That's what I felt like, and I think that's what the nonprofit understood.

They're willing to build it, but the city doesn't want to staff it.

So, yeah, that's that's where we are 1 positive place now has received the monies to build. They're been in limbo waiting on the city to give direction and there's questions among. I guess the commission about the future of ASAP and so we need to, we need to I do not intend to just.

Burn through every dollar that we have when I really do believe that there's an important part of programming is taking place through this program. It needs to be in a self sustaining way and and just planning for 5 years that we're just going to burn through all the money that Michael Johnson stolen and that the city happened to recruit. It doesn't seem like a very good plan to me and.

I realize that, and Jonathan, correct me if I'm wrong, we've set aside our virtual workshop for Monday of next week to have this very discussion.

And I would like the virtual workshop in person here.

And that is no defense. It's no insult to anybody that works in the program or anything else like that. It is a fact of the matter. Yes, there is enough money inside of Friends of ASAP. To say solvent for this year, but unless there are private donations, unless there are something else that's coming. All we're essentially going to do is we're just going to burn through all the resources. We haven't been able to get grants now we can write for grants. Because they're at a time out, so the, well, they're not out of time out, but the city is taking ownership of writing. Right?

So that's where we get the money from. This is if we have to show it up.

So correct.

So I agree, it ought to be self-sustaining as close as possible. But not-for-profits are hard to do that. Taking it out of one not-for-profit that's been doing it for 20 years and giving it to somebody else.

And that's not true. There are multiple nonprofits in our community that offer more hours than currently what we offer that are self-sustaining. We can make those changes.

But the money that's in that Michael Johnson account... No, no, that's the million for the Panama city fund that made 17,000 dollars. And so how can we use that extra money to put in back into the program?

How about that? I think we're in agreement is in putting it into the program, or whatever is stood up in the program. Where we're in disagreement is just using it for operating costs every year. Until it runs out of money. Like that's where we disagree.

So I think the virtual workshop will be good. And I agree with Robbie about having it in person because this is a very personal thing to have. I agree.

So my only questions were like on your allocations for this year, Sheila, what do you intend to use administration dollar wise in your budget from our ship allocation?

10%. So that is $27,000? 27, but plus we also any program income that we get in, that goes to also can cover admin costs.

How much of that are you budgeting towards admin?

10% of that also.

So that's 100,000 to 10,000? Yeah. So it's 30-something thousand. How much of CBDG are you planning? 20%.

20%.

So that's 80. Right. So that's 110,000.

Where's the rest? In NSP. 15% of any rent revenue that we have that comes in, we are able to use that also.

So you're just going to draw down from the reserves.

Yes.

So the rest of it would be covered. And what is that delta that we'll pull down just from reserves to cover?

Wait, are you pulling down from reserves or are you using the revenue that comes in?

We just went through that. The rental. Okay.

Yeah.

10% of that. Yeah. She's answering the questions. Yeah, the 15%. I'm sorry. I was just slowing there. My bad.

And then if there's any program income, also we have interest income that we have received that we're able to use.

Can you can you provide us with this budget and allocation so that we know exactly so there's two million in SP? How much of that are you drawing down for staffing?

That will all be part of the proposed budget.

And we will see that.

Yes, every year. Yes. Yeah, we get that big thing. Well, yeah, yeah, it's all the revenues and all the expenditures are budgeted.

Yes. But what I'm asking for specifically is if we're utilizing a reserve fund, like, I'd like to know.

So we'll be a budgetary change in use of reserves.

Okay.

Can you highlight that for him? Yes, I will be happy to go over it with you and break it down because it is confusing because they do have two different funds in several different programs within the fund.

So what I'm trying to say specifically, there is no axe to grind with this department, Sheila. You're surviving off of your reserves and there comes a point in time that your reserves will not allow you to sustain. and where we're at as a city, I don't know how we keep finding ways to keep filling the gap. Being very creative, I appreciate the creativity, but every time we draw off of the reserves, that's one less project that we can do too.

Exactly, but with the NSP program, that program was set up for us to provide affordable housing to low to moderate, hard to place individuals. And that's what we've done with the rentals. So the money that you're receiving in rent, the city would not have had that had the feds had not come in and said, we're going to give you two and a half million for the county, we're going to give you a million for the city. So we are supposed to be using those funds for the administration. You collect your rents, but you also are supposed to be using it for the administration of that program and until the affordability period is. So, it was designed that way for it to be spent on the administration once with the homes are sold. We are able to take that money. If we do a local housing trust fund, we will have the flexibility to.

So, I guess I just need to see how much is so that's fine. There's 2 million dollars sitting into account for that could be used for. Virtually any community block development purpose. How much are we taking out to fund salaries?

That's really that red can't be used for any of that. It has to be back in, doesn't it?

Except for the admin costs. They allow for us to use funds for admin costs because they know the program has to be administered until the affordability period is up.

So if you bring in $10,000 a month and it's $1,000 for admin costs, you can spend the other $9,000 or you cannot...

The other $9,000 has to go back into the properties.

Okay.

Until the... Until the affordability period is up.

Right. And how many houses do we have that have met that timeline, that 15 years?

we have one property on Balboa that just came off at the end of beginning of July and it's so nice it has two slabs yeah that's the one that's the one where Nevin can explain that we were that there was an issue with so we did we decided not to rebuild that and now that property can be sold or Whatever the city, the commission sees fit to do with that.

So, for full transparency, when I heard that we would have 25 houses, my head spread around about 14 times. And, um, but here's the cool part. What's the best deal that we have that we bought that it might our return after 15 years would be pretty good.

I would say there are several, but I would say probably the ones that were that are on the beach in the Palm Cove, which is a gated community that we spent about $80,000 for today.

Those are selling for upwards of 300, 275, 300. But if we sell it now, we've got to give all that money back other than the 80 that we paid. We don't give it back. We just don't get it.

No, we can reinvest it into doing other objectives, yes.

If you sell it now, if we spent 80 for it plus any repairs we put in it, that's all you can sell it for. You cannot make a dollar off of it. until that affordability period is up after the affordability period you are able to sell it at market value or whatever price you pick but this the um hud does cap you because it was not set up for you to make a profit

That's all good information for the workshop.

Yeah, so just real quick before we get too further than this. So we're actually going to have to work through an issue. I don't know that we're able to do it in person. There was not a planning board quorum. And so there's actually a special planning board. in this meeting at the same time on monday and i also mr zimmerman i don't know if we modify uh a workshop whether it be in person or virtual different from what was originally noticed are there any concerns with that because we do notice all we just have it in the executive room

But on the virtual, people are allowed to come down here and watch it in this room, right?

The viewing for this one is in 102.

But we'll work it out. My question, though, is are there any concerns with modifying the specifics of it, even though it's been noticed?

No, just do it in the conference room and stream it.

Didn't the board just say it was to be in person?

Yeah, that's what he's talking about.

We're clarifying. What about the Glenwood Community Center as a location?

Can it be streamed? Yeah, that makes it a lot more challenging for streaming and participation and all that.

The question is, we've noticed it to be a virtual meeting, and if they notice it tomorrow to be an in-person, You can come and walk and see it in person.

Can we meet together virtually? What?

No.

What I'm trying to say, what's the difference? We can still offer it virtually. Yeah, we can still offer it virtually. We're just in the room together. You just stream all of us while we're there. Is that not able to be done? I think that's what Laney does.

We can stream, but not stream. That's a notice issue.

Yeah, and we and we do have this around we had two folks coming from the OPP we have on the board Make sure they can come in person.

I've already have you guys already talked about that?

This is that Commissioner Lucas's request Jonathan

I have invited Kelly to bring at least one more person. We can't invite 18 people to come and join from the city and then limit the people that we're talking about. So I've invited, they'll have three there tomorrow at the meeting.