Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Miss Dorm, thank you.

We thought that would be a good lead into parks today. Matt is going to be down in a few minutes. He's going to give us an overview of the trails. Um the trails plan. Um you send me the No, you send me one second. We'll pull this up. Speak of the devil and he appears. Hey. Hey. Here. One of the things that we talked about while Matt's getting situated. One of the things that we've been talking about is whether or not parks and recreation um should be we have currently a public facilities chapter. Thought about combining that with parks and recreation. So that' be parks, public facilities and cultural facilities like the library and everything in one chapter

because there's not a lot of public facilities. Is there really any need to even say it? We're looking at that. It's really just facilities that like to rent. Yeah. on that that can be really talked about in respect to the parks and the the facility. Um right now it contains that whole chapter contains some comments about descriptions of public works as a facility that they're in a different building like that matters for the general plan probably not important in the general plan. It's taking up space.

Is that okay? Sorry. I'm sorry. Give me one second, guys. So, we have in addition to the general plans section on parks and recreation, there is a park master plan, right? We've been about that a little bit in the past. Um, that's been in place since I want to say 2016. Is that right? put in there.

Most recent addition is the parks trails open space or park recreation open space trails parks recreation trails open space master plan. It was adopted in 2011. Okay. So then yeah, our our current general plan references a references a 2016 plan that's supposed to go through 2026.

Sure. We don't have a right now, but Jerry's supposed to be coming from So I was asked to look at just present some information on trail system and I could talk a little bit about the parks plan but my main focus in planning one of one of many focuses of my planning is trail planning active transportation planning. at work along with John Dorney and his transportation planning efforts. But um this plan was adopted in 21. This map is a little cluttered because it shows proposed trails and bike lanes. Looks like I got the wrong one. No, this is the right one. But it's also overlaid with existing. And then there's some other things on this map. This comes right out of the plan. Um, for instance, these light blue lines are sort of uh marked bikeways, which we haven't really implement any of those yet. Uh, if we have, it's been very limited. So, it's a little bit of a cluttered map. Um, one way I like to look at the map and explain what is a more simplified view of our backbone

trail system and what we already have in place to some degree. Um, this illustrates our trails more like a subway map, you know, easily conceptualizing point A to point B type of destinations. Um, some of the backbone trails are starting from the top, the Murdoch Canal Trail. You're probably familiar with that trail. You're not familiar with any of these facilities, just raise your hand and I'll dive into them a little bit more. This uh Murdoch Canal Trail is a multi what we call a multi-use trail. It facilitates pedestrians, bicyclist, this one's even equestrian use. Uh Bonavville Shoreline Trail which is up in the foothills is primarily mountain biking and pedestrian or foot you know hiking trail. We have the uh Provo River Trail which just touches Provo in the northeast corner but is a major connector. Look at it as peripheral trail to warm as it goes through the downtown part of the overall network. The college connector trail is this orange trail from the Provo border or south of Provo border to University Mall is a separated multi-use trail. It ends at um State Street and uh this isn't probably it probably needs to be dashed because it's a it's a on street bicycle facility with just typical sidewalks off the street. So it's not a combined use facility trail at that point but does serve as a major connection between existing trail facilities. This uh circles around UVU and now with also the pedestrian bridge in place over the

freeway makes a much safer route for pedestrians and cyclists east to west across the freeway rather than parkway. Does have a connection but I don't want to take it. I haven't taken it yet. That goes across 12 South.

Yes, this is 12 South. Uh this is planned. It does continue on over to Sleepy Ridge area and then um we do plan a connection into what this blue dash line is called has different names but it's the Utah Lake Shore Trail. Sometimes people refer to as the Walker Away Trail, but I think we're moving towards generally just call it the Utah Lake Shore Trail. Um, this is funded from where it ends in Lake uh, Vineyard to South Orum here, south of the industrial park. It's funded for a trail head facility there too. We and the property's already identified and uh, paid for and ready to go. However, there are some major property, how do I say it? disputes

disputes of ownership that um are still being worked out and um what's an example of that?

Well, a lot of the area was claimed by one or two different families. Uh a title report conducted in the study process shows that a lot of what they claimed was is not actually in their fee title possession. Um and so now that I think there's some acceptance for saying okay we accept that maybe we don't uh have claim or ownership of any of these state lands or federal lands which willing to transfer to the state uh for this project if certain conditions are met. But uh there's still some areas where the trail goes through which is under private ownership. And so there's I don't remember it's been about 6 months since I went to the last meeting on this but there's so they even had a facilitator. Don't think they came to a final conclusion based off my la the last meeting.

What's the charge to make that happen? Is it?

So, like I said, the state legislature appropriated money for this project and they have hire Utah County is actually leading the charge. They they're they've hired a a consultant and now subconsultants to help negotiate this uh planning, design, negotiation. Uh Utah Lake Authority has taken a lot of the lead now too. um Peterson and his team, but again, they're still working through some of the final negotiations, which almost seem to be at a standstill right now, last I checked. But once we get some movement there, we'll be helping facilitate connections through our wastewater treatment facility in the golf course into this orange multi-use trail line and also a trail head facility south of our industrial arc and potential uh additional connections into the southwest annexation area. You also have a master plan for trail connections and that means

what are you doing to cross Geneva? to cross Geneva. Yeah. That's going to be a really busy road. Sure. Sure. We We haven't even begun to cross that bridge yet. Metaphorical bridge.

Uh once the connection is Yes, we need to start studying that intersection safety. Right now, signalized intersections into the transit facility there at bus station and Front Runner. Um but yeah, we certainly need to look at how to upgrade that connection that a higher volume of pedestrians and cycle. We have not started yet. Um a lot of our going back to this map, we've done some local coordination with Vineyard to ensure that our trail system is linking up to their trail system. Uh we did a few general plan amendments a few years ago to ensure that we would connect into their rail trail. Uh so as we do feature improvements, they're only just little tiny less than quarter mile sections uh that if we improve, we will link into their vast network of trails that we think is real benefit. Um, you can also at 800 North is a line here. This is primarily completed in or there's a section right here that we completed with UD do's help. Uh, a block by the hospital this last year. There's still one more block that needs to needs completion and that multi-use trail will be completed up to Geneva Road. As Vineyard completes their section, it will tie into Utah City, the worst named city in the neighborhood in the world. Um, sorry, I didn't say

it is not even a city. Well, I just think people are going to label their their mail such and such street Utah City that doesn't exist as a city. It should be I just think it's a post office uh disaster. But that's that's just my side commentary. The vineyard city, Utah City, sorry, I I totally agree with you.

Sorry. going to help do that. Um anyways, but as it connects into Utah City as a sub neighborhood of vineyard, um they will also connect back into this lake torch shore. So I call this just a mount the mount of the lake network. Uh how do we complete these segments a few segments complete to have a full functioning 360 degree uh trail network throughout Orm City to the mountains. Um, you know, some of that has to go through Provo or Vineyard, but it'll be a complete network for our three cities. Uh, one project that we as we looked at this initial plan looking for lower hanging fruit. Um, lower hanging meant shorter or less hurdles. Uh we start we identified this section here uh from the Bonavville Shoreline Trail to the Murdoch Canal Trail. Um you'll see it on this simplified map under this purple line. Uh our working title for it is the Bonadok link. It's a combination of Bonavville Shoreline and Murdoch because we thought the Merville trail was not marketing material. So, um, Bombadok link is the working title. We do have a grant to help, uh, fund this and it will be under construction in the next year. Uh, this will consist of two parts where the blue line is, which is actually was originally planned as a just a bike facility. Uh, we actually will be putting in a 10-ft multi-use path from the Murdoch Canal Trail to Cascade Drive. It's about a/4 mile long. And then the remaining distance will be a um separated facility. One half will just be sherro markings for

those that have the stamina to ride up Cascade Drive. I do not. Um but there will be a most of this area along Cascade Drive is ORM city controlled which is why we chose this site. Uh we'll have a pedestrian and bicyclist routes paved and not paved um natural surface trails. And then we are partnering with this section is the um metro Salt Lake and Sandy met Metropolitan Water of Salt Lake and Sandy. Uh but they have agreed in exchange for a few improvements that they've requested an easement throughout through their portion up until the existing Bonavville Shoreline Trail. So this will create a connection between these two highly utilized trail sections. People are already using it and we'll just formalize it in a true facility. Uh this is the initial preliminary plan. We'll be making some adjustments to this section with more switchbacks for the BI uh mountain cyclists to level out the grade and also separate them from downhill cyclists from pedestrian foot traffic cuz they like to get fancy. Um like I said, we'll start construction on this within the year. So, let's see. And this grant also funds some additional trail heads. There's a preliminary plan, not the final, which they're working out the details on the final, hoping that we'll be able to afford a pavilion, additional lighting and security measures, additional shade trees, and some other improvements head. Right now, it has some issues of vandalism,

and hopefully if we can create more of an established presence, we'll have eyes on the street. Usually uh increased activity does recreate decrease crime and then we'll also be installing fiber optic for camera security as well. Okay. And as part of uh part of our efforts is with this project is introduce standard trail signage which has been implemented in other communities. um a Mountainland Associate Government took um the Jordan River Trail concept for trail wayfinding design and signage and has applied the standard to a countywide standard that we're hoping to implement with our own city branding and but it will as cross jurisdictions you won't have to reinterpret it will be the same type of format design and uh should translate jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Um, so we'll be implementing this in the Bonana do link as well. All right. Uh, some people have brought North Union Canal. We've talked about this for a very long time. This uh this graphic comes from a study done in 2009 looking at the canal rideway or easement as it really is and um the various widths. Uh feasibility wise there's enough width to do that. Uh it's a continued discussion. We don't have any formal plans to move forward at this point. We are actively talking about how do we do next steps if this is to become a real project or not.

What happens to the fence that surrounds that? Currently, the fences will probably stay is everything within the easement that we're talking about. Uh how how does any type of trail system actually go in there and what and right now right now we're studying the hurdles. What are the biggest hurdles to actually trying to do anything with this in either a complete or a phased approach over time?

So, one issue is some people may not own property, but they've put their fence out there. And so, if somebody's put their fence on property they don't own, you know, at the end of the day, uh it's not their property, right? No. The the reason the background of my question is my little brother drowned in that canal and the fence was put up shortly after to keep kids in that neighborhood in the Sharon Park area neighborhood away from the canal. So the question's a personal one how do you keep kids out of the canal if you have a trail right next to it be over it.

Well this trail would actually pipe the canal if it remains like the Murdoch. So that's I was just trying to understand there are spots where the only width is the canal. Yes. The fence is right on top of it. Got it. Now where I grew up, I grew up right next to the canal about 1200 north. Fences were right on the edge of the canal and uh you know technically the easement. So the property for both sides actually is the in the canal but they have an easement for the canal. Okay. Track. Thank you.

Yeah. So this is very still so much in the study phase still um at this point we're looking at identifying major hurdles so that we can then identify low and high hanging fruit and you know if we do try to move forward on this you know one that's going to involve additional public outreach and discussion so we want to plan that appropriately but also how do we phase it in a way that makes sense that Um, and that's the that's where we're at today with that is just studying that issue. I think it's a good idea. See, one of the big hurdles is the junctions across center and 800 North.

Yeah, Utah is definitely going to have to partner with us on 800 North. That that may 800 North is probably the biggest curl. Yeah, it's the busiest road, highest traffic volume

probably considering how fast the speeds are and you're not going to get an intersection. you're going to have to do a Skywalk or something. But I just threw this on if you know if we looked at this as a backbone facility, what would it look like under the sort of backbone idea? And you know, uh, one parallel I realized when I was looking at just the other day is how much a parallel State Street and could be a much more pleasant low volume alternative to that sort of northwest to southeast traffic flow for bicyclists and pedestrians. And it's really less than a half mile off of that road. So, it could be a viable um commuting alternative if you didn't want to brave uh some of the busier roads. So, anyways, that's sort of my overview of trails and where we're at today, what we're working on. Um it is sort of contingent upon grant funding and and working where there's opportunities and but uh we are starting to chip away at it more proactively. Cool. So

what is the uh driving force to make it happen? Is it you doing that or is who who brings the pressure to bear to this? I think it comes from all sorts of different angles. Uh you know North Union Canal is you know been some discussions much higher than me that have said Matt we need to look at this again. Uh, Bon the Bonadok link was something that I threw out there a couple years ago that there was some potential grant funding. I said, "Hey, this might be a good opportunity to go after some grant funding." Um, and, you know, chip away at this this really big master plan at least. Um,

at the end of the day, there needs to be public support for it. Yes. If you're asking internally, Yeah. Uh I am a huge fan of the idea of the North Union Canal. That's something personally I would like to uh move the idea forward enough so that the community the council can ultimately make decisions if just a little FYI just just uh Google Highline New York City. I think this could be I've seen that Highline it's elevated. elevated. It's an old railroad rideway that went down to the meat packing district. I've walked that.

Yep. And so they were going to vacate that those railroad tracks and that easement and the city turned it into an elevated walking trail. And with this canal, there's an opportunity for us to look at. There's there's a lot of hurdles and I can't say it's going to happen, but I think it's worth the discussion as as the community. I think it strengthens the neighborhood by having those kind of uh amenities in the area. It's obviously conducive to the neighborhoods we have. So,

yeah. and and people will have concerns that will need to be understood and addressed and but I think these types of things if you're asking internally there's I think there's a lot of uh interest throughout the entire organization or city to develop these ideas and concepts enough so that the public and council can ultimately make decision because it's not going to be for free you know if you type things. And we're also looking at it uh if it's a trail, what other things could we have for it? Could it be a utility corridor or,

you know, for things like that? How can that fit in long-term plans for multiple areas of the city? Like to the southern canals at all? Uh, a little bit, not as much as this. I know they're not as nice and as extensive, but yeah, a little more switch back. And

I just wanted to add one thing to your question uh is and I said, yeah, you know, taking that bond link and tying it to a potential grant source was something I worked on early, but honestly, that idea wasn't ultimately initiated by public feedback. So, as these plans were produced, there were public meetings. They did actually pretty extensive survey uh the consultant that worked on this plan inquiring of the public what are your top priorities. I forget the exact number. I can look it up in a second but like over half of ORM residents said that trails were their number one priority. And out of that that planning process came this map. from this map. I said, "Okay, of all these things that the public identified, what could we potentially do that's lowhanging fruit to get started?" So ultimately, the question has been public input that was ratified by the city council when this plan was adopted.

Seemed to me that we will have a more complete trail system than any of the neighboring communities. I can't I mean, what do I know about that? But it just seems like we have a plethora of possibilities. To me, that's that's more of a true trail system rather than the wide sidewalk next to a road. Like 800 North is just a big sidewalk. Sure, we can call it a trail, but it's just right by traffic. I to me trails are something that are detached from, you know, regular travel. So, the North Union would fit that. The Murdoch does fit that even though it skirts try roads from time to time. But um so I I think it's I think it's better tied to the community because it's a little quieter. Sure.

So yeah, I I would agree. You know, the more separation you have from regular traffic ultimately becomes a much more pleasant experience. But we're also working in a largely builtout environment. Very true.

So have to connect things if we want to make it a viable network. And the more network there is, the more likely people are going to use it because get to point A to point B, right? Uh and that's going to be very varied depending on the user's interests and life. So we do look for any opportunity in ORM connecting up through some type of facility that makes people feel comfortable. Um there are different types of users and therefore different types of act what you know we call active transportation biking walking um you know the commuting road cyclist warrior he's okay uh hugging the shoulder with no bike lane sometimes right we're that's never going to work out for um a mom with two kids on a trailer right so we need to consider all user types in this venture Uh, you know, mom, even a dad. Sorry. Cuz I I was the one that took my kids in the trailer. Not the mom. But, uh, yeah. Would I would be a little braver maybe than some people and take my kids into a regular bike line? Yeah, I did. But most people would not feel comfortable with that, right? And so, uh, that's where the, uh, the separated multi-use bike lane where pedestrians and bikes can share a space away from the road is essential to attract as many users we can.

Also, the commuting cyclist is not is less likely to use that. They rather they rather brave it out with traffic and share the space with slowmoving pedestrians and kids on bikes and stuff. So when we look at these maps, we're considering all these different types of users.

That raises a a a point and I think it it it ought to be considered. So trails and and this the trails planning that we have going on kind of fits into two areas of the general plan in the recreation which we're talking about now as a cultural recreational amenity, but it's part of the transportation network too. as as transportation changes and it's not just people in cars. Um, some folks are going to use these the way Matt's talking about right now and some are going to use them recreationally. So, it's going to figure into both of those chapters, I think, um, to the extent that we focus on one aspect or the other in the different chapters. So, the full full plan will be, you know, it's going to be part of the active transportation plan, but it's part of the parks and wrecks master plan as well. I think to Jar's point, one reason they are all part of one plan is because when we look at these trail connections, yeah, there's ideal and then there's well, we got to work with what we got. And as we balance both of those, we're also looking at key destinations, right? You can build a trail just got low hanging fruit. But if it doesn't serve any particular purpose, it still might be lower on the priority list than maybe a slightly more difficult project that connects up say for instance the city center block with the Sierra. That's going to be a harder project, but they are two key large uh public facility areas which may be very beneficial to link up through some type of active transportation network. It'll be a harder project, but it serves a much more viable function. That's another point that we've been talking about as we as we've been looking at these things internally is those are those connections between the facilities that we have that are cultural and recreational and and how those those are going to figure into this plan as well. Uh and remember this is the general plan so it's goals about

these things. We may not have funding mechanisms in place yet. We might have a hard time finding those. Doesn't need to keep us from identifying places that are important like like what Matt was just talking about. Um, well, if I could build off that, this Bonadok link trail, had this not been on our plan, we wouldn't have been eligible for grant money for it. That was a big component, right? Yes. When when the state's looking to fund projects, they want to see community support. They want to see legislative support, and that's usually expressed in these plans. It's one thing for us to know we want it, but it's another thing for us for the funders. It's another the grant people. It's a it's it has to be part of the adopted plan, not something we want.

Sure. So, it's good to have it in even the far-fetched. Um I think a great example of that it's not well it does have trail component but Lake View Parkway in Provo uh which also has a multi-use trail along it. Um I can remember for when I first started working at the city until the recession that was sort of a pipe dream. It's been on the master plan for 20 years or more. Uh there was no funding for it. Uh the recession hit, the Obama administration made sure they forget what the name of that rescue package was, shovel ready projects,

shovel ready projects. And because that was that pipe dream plan was in the plan, it qualified for that money. And and now we have that connection. So sometimes you do plan for the unfunded or imp. Great. Any other questions about trails as they figure in or stuff that we want to talk about there

or connections in general too that are kind of related to trails? That's one of the things we want to look at is how how easy is it for folks in ORM? This will lead into the next part of the conversation I think. How easy or how hard is it for for families in ORM to access the facilities that we have? Um if you wanted to take a bike ride and end up at a park, can you do that from from different places? Identifying different spaces within the city that may be park deficient.

Sure. And that that's a big that's a big component as well. Um we were talking about this earlier, parks parks cost money. So there's but again we have to we we can't get what we haven't identified. So it's it's an important part of the planning to look at what's deficient, whether we can afford to fund it or not is not necessarily the most important consideration. It's identifying what's needed and then identifying the most important. The next best thing we can do will be what we fund. So to kind of force rank those buses down just because there's property doesn't generally make sense either. It won't necessarily find where people need it. Right.

Right. If I have to take a car to get to a park in a certain area of town, then that's probably more conducive to think about trying to build in that area. Sure. Sure. Um Yeah, cuz then the more the more we can more we can we want to see utilization of those parks. Um

the kinds of things we want to talk about too, I'm just going to just pull up we can talk about what's in the in the draft right now of this chapter. Um it's active on that shared Google Drive. Um, there's some notes in there right now. We are actively looking at at combining public. We're going to call it public, recreational, and cultural. Amenities feels like an overused word. We were looking for another word. So, if anyone has any brilliant suggestions other than amenities, please suggest it. Uh, services, assets, we don't know. Amenities is the word that we've got so far. It's kind of a draft. Um, but we we'd like to combine those into a single chapter in the interest of keeping this general plan sort of compact and concise and not having extraneous chapters that put readers off. Um, the first part of that pretty simple. Um, one of the things that we kind of hoped to do today was look at the the existing parks that we have just on the large map. And as you think about the parks that you're familiar with in ORM and the different cultural facilities that we have, playous and the Sierra and things like that, what kind of feels are are there things that feel missing? Are there kinds of things that we don't have that we ought to have? Um those kind of things. So I'm going to push this over this way. This is that the right one? Yeah, that's the right one. down. Okay. Okay. So, as an exercise, when you think about parks in Orum, what's the first one that comes to your mind just in general?

Windsor. Windsor Park. I grew up there. Okay. Yeah. Anybody else? I watched them build it. I'll say Alice Park. I say Sarah Sarah. Yeah. Yeah. Spent a lot of time there in high school. Neielson's Grove. Sarah Shell. The Shell or the park around or the what? Park next to it. Next to it. Park around it. It's a It's kind of a small park in between the school and the shell. What's that called? Ser Park. Yeah. Sarah Park, right? Is it Sarah or Sarah? Someone needs to determine this for me eventually. Sarah Sarah,

there's no a seems right to me. We say I hear that a lot. It seems like it should be Sarah Sarah to me. There's an acronym for something. I forget what it is. Sharon Community whatever entertainment and recreation association. Is it entertainment or education and recreation association? I think it's educational. Education Recreation Association. Yeah. Established in like the 30s. Yeah. Very cool. Um, so Neielson's Grove, too. Sad. The water fountain is

Sharon Park was one of my favorites growing up. What What made that influence you, Mike? just how it I mean just the hills the little amphitheater next to the canal. I didn't realize there was an amphitheater in there. There's an amphitheater in just a small little stage, you know. I got one kind of

cool. Um Marlin and I were talking the other day about parks and open space. And it is the kind of the parks and um we're not calling it parks and open space in the chapter, but open space is part of our kind of our our look at parks as well. Um and we were talking about different parks and open space and whether there's a need for um open spaces that are less programmed versus more programmed parks. Parks departments tend to be Oh, hi Meline. Thank you.

So now you So now you know if I'm lying about our conversation. Parks departments tend to be more focused on programmable space on programmed space on on on the amphitheaters and things like that. But there is there is some merit to open spaces that are just enjoyed like off the side of trails when trails go through wide spaces. Some of the Jordan River Trail, for example, there are areas of the Jordan River trail system that are I don't know half a mile wide. They're just nice big open kind of wild feeling spaces and the only programmed thing in it is that Um we I'm familiar with the park too that we city that I worked for had a park that they were always trying to always trying to program. It was a hillside full of um pines and scrub oak and two picnic tables at the bottom of the hill where kids mostly smoked marijuana. But they were it was near a police station. So, some of that was starting to add. Um, but it was it was pretty and it was called Wildland Park. And they they they eventually decided to leave that alone. Although they um they did put in a couple of lights to keep it a little a little safer, but they uh they backed off of programming it because people really enjoyed in the community when we had a little meeting about it, they really enjoyed that it was just kind of nature space, natural space. Um, and even even programmed parks can have sections that are just sort of left more naturally in them. Um, we can talk about that in the general plan. I don't know if that's that's just a concept that I've been thinking about lately and that we were talking about. So, I thought I'd bring that up. Does that have merit? Is that the kind of thing we want to look at in new parks? Are we more as a city of this many people? Is our obligation more for the the kind of cultural amenities that we need programmed into the park system? Just as this is just general guidance as we're drafting stuff. So, I'm just looking for information and thoughts. I think

there's always a need for just open space to do right. Sure. I don't know how how busy are the pistol blocks. That's something you always have to take into account if they're always booked. We do a couple master plan, right? We do. And for we have the parks master plan up here as well. That's where we're at actually in this, isn't it?

This isn't the general this this map is in the parks plan, not the general plan. Um, for purposes of our general plan section, we're going to be pretty pretty high level broad about about these kinds of issues and they're just going to be goals about um helping to connect people to the parks better or and how do we do that? We'll have some action items for those things. Um, how to u how to bring in or fund uh different programs and things like that. And that's all going to be more detailed in the parks master plan. That was 2021. So it we're going to try to match the the goals and and objectives of that current plan with what we say in the general plan segment. Well, I think it says we need 37 more acres. 37 more

correctly. But does it define like where and this is the heat map for that where they need to be sort of map area for existing parks.

Yeah. So this map goes in and looks at the park and for a level of service that a community provides and whatever it is including parks you draw uh circles around it quarter mile half mile then the different type of park it is like the lake uh uh lakeside uh sports park is a regional park to have regional activities that's one that we wouldn't build just to have people locally walk to it and enjoy it. It's it's a draw for the entire county and outside the county to come in and we hold big events. Then you have other little parks in the city that's really just a local park, a more, you know, localized beyond that little neighborhood. Not many people would ever go to that park. And you know, and then you have something that's kind of uh in between uh like a Hillrest where you do have some pickle ball courts and and if you talk to the pickle ball players, we could have expanded twice as many to the east and decked it and there still wouldn't have been enough pickle ball courts

when they're within the basketball court.

Yeah. you know, and so that's not we're not holding na uh regional events there, but it's more than just a local neighborhood. So, part of the analysis that you really I would suggest is not just look at our section of the general plan, but look at the parks master plan. So you can remember the general plan kind of gives a general overview of what we want in parks and then with the details found in the parks and wrecks master plan. So it'd be good to have read that and look at it. We don't want to because it'll get into more specific areas and like Dave was talking about this level of service of how many more acres of art do we need? you know, it'll go in there and analyze, you know, how much how much of acreage do we need? What type of space is that? Is that citywide, regional, local, where in the city do we need some things? And so, take a take a good look hard look at this plan also. And if you need, we could get somebody from the parks department come in and talk more about this park plan. and they have active improvements that they're continually making. So, we don't want to get necessarily into the weeds of of uh of you know, oh, we need five acres in Southeast Oram between you know something like that. But we do want to have those highlevel, you know, what kind of principles behind parks from a general plan standpoint do we think a community would need?

I'm impressed. Amazing how much thoughts gone into this. I don't know uh uh what you could really do better than what's been done. I mean, the analyses, what's been laid out, it's it's the the master plan is great and in place, and we probably just want to reflect those better principles in our in our general plan. Um, and and that's one thing that we're trying to do is make our general plan a little more concise,

but yet then rely on the underlying master plans for parks for uh transportation, active transportation to flesh out the details of those things more. Well, then then could you have too many parks? I mean, it costs money to maintain them. Maintain them. Yeah. 37 acres. A lot of parks. That's a lot of parks. Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, part of it with this also is, you know, that balance that you're talking about. Can you have too many parks? Well, my answer to you is is how much you're willing to pay. The the analogy I always like to give people is

is and it's a far-fetched ridiculous one, is people will complain about speeding in their neighborhood. And I said, "Well, I can guarantee no speeding in in in or absolutely guarantee it. What I need is we have three shifts of police officers and I need a police officer for three shifts at every intersection and we will prevent all speeding, but that cost is pretty high. So where do you bring down the cost and knowing well somebody's going to speed sometime somewhere we're not going to catch them? What's the right balance in the community? Well, that's that's true of about any any element of the city, lighting, uh,

yeah, sidewalks, uh, everything. And it seems to me that people have good ideas, bring them forth. And some people show no restraint. They just figure, well, it's on the table. We better approve it and move forward. And, uh, I'm always concerned about uh, the increase in taxes. Well, I always love spending other people. Hold on. Most government does. That's my hobby. Well, have any of these 37 acres, you know, I realize that's the grandiose target. Has any of that been programmed in any kind of budget forecast? Crest was the last one, right?

No. I mean, Wilson Farm would have been a nice destiny. So, looking at further expansion if we annex further to like we were looking at the southwest or plan like what do we do with that long term? Like if we annex some of that lakefront that can all become open space acreage that doesn't have to be all programmed but could be nature so it can be included in that. And those are kind of some of the things to be thinking about too or kind of where we have holes and what we might need to be saying, hey, we need more of X. So, have you done any analysis on um specialty needs park specialty needs? Like we have one skate park.

There's a a there's a bike skills park planned for up near that Bonadok trail uh connection that Matt was showing it. That's that's the one that springs to mind first. Other than that, I don't know if there's been a lot of analysis of that. I couldn't tell you. It might have been. I'm not aware of it. Yeah, I'm just barely dipping my toes in. No, Windsor Park was my skate park. So, unofficial skate park. We used it more than the tennis player. So, Sharon Park. I did as a kid when I learned to skate. It was just down the road. That tennis court was great for skating. His range increased.

There you go. That skateboard. Actually, Windsor was always closer, but when I was little, they built Sharon Park when I was in uh third grade. So, we went to Sharon because there was no Windsor when I was little. So, I just have lots of good fond memories of them as a kid. But, you know, it was just just half half a block away to get Did you play baseball? Did City Center? Oh, yeah. I liked City Center, but that never felt like a park because it was baseball. Well, with these parks, this different mentality, how is it determined how well used they are? Is there any sort of

I'm sure there's data on that that we can get, but the same way that we use Placer data for for businesses, it tells you when people have been in parks. We could bring somebody in from parks like Gary was saying, it might be really interesting to see which are the the most highly utilized and things like that. That's something that would be interesting for you all to know. Let's let's do that. We have those numbers about, aren't they? They're just vague in estimates though, right? Uh since we don't people coming through.

No, we we have uh uh we use Placer AI which will tell you, you know, I could tell you how many uh individual people came to the city center last month, you know, with with that data. So we we have a pretty good idea of how much um it's used and that's always the the question right you have a park there is the park worth it if you know 1% of the population of ORM uses it a year is that park worth it

then there's the question is it the same few people that come to the park or is it a broad Yeah we can we can can uh source that do to make it more usable, things like that. Well, if people Yeah, I'm sure you can market things, but are people really interested in using the park? I don't know.

Well, I remember the play set at Windsor, the old wood one, people stopped using it, the more splinters became prevalent. And then when they put the new one, I noticed it seemed to be an uptick in usage again. So, that's my point. Sometimes you can analyze there's a reason people aren't bringing their kids to play on that play set cuz it's a little beat and uh sometimes you know it's just indicator we needed them and the uh kids that use parks that like toies there they get older and oh still

well parks are cyclical right we have like I mean even in our family you know there was the time we were taking the kids all the time and now they've outgrown And the only time we, you know, if we go to a park, it's cuz I'm going to do photography and we're walking by the lake or, you know, or something like that. So, the needs change and it's different in the different stages. Hillrest Park has a splash pad. Now, how many of you this summer went and played in the splash pad? Any of you? What's wrong with you people? I wasn't in a Hillrest splash pad, but I was in a different splash pad. Okay. I I haven't been to a splash pad in decades. This summer I would probably eight times to the Hillrest Park splash pad. Yeah, because my grandson was in town

too and he loves it. He's a huge fan of it. So if you ask a lot of people and that's one of those things, how do you balance that? It it's a big cost to put in a splash pad. Now none of you use that splash pad. I would imagine I did this summer and it was great, but you know, maybe next summer I won't use it at all. So, is it worth having it? That's the question. Depending on the usage and and what segments of our community are we trying to get? That's that's the really hard policy question at the end of the day. But then council changes.

It's the same argument for schools. you know, in an older community, do we get rid of all of them because we don't have kids using them extensively? It's also Yeah. And how how how much of how nice and what amenities do you put into the school or do you dial some of that back and focus on other things? And there's lots of opinions. And it seems like there's been a large overlap between schools and parks. So people go school, park, and play. Now, it seems like there's more fencing now that's been built to segregate the two, but I'm not sure just

Yeah. And part of that's been some federal regulations and things like that and state regulations dealing with school security and like Sarah Park. Uh what's the school there called next to Sarah Centennial or something? Yeah, it'll always be Sarah Park Elementary to me. That's but it's a different name now. Now that has a fence. Yeah. Between the park and the school. But when I was a kid and went to what it should be called, which is Sarah Park Elementary, there was no fence and the whole thing functioned all the time as one big community of me.

Same with Windsor and Windsor. Om the same thing. Yeah. Same at all fields. There's a Now I've fenced that off. Absolutely. So what we're talking about suggests if we're going to do it properly then we need to factor in the cyclic nature of neighborhoods. Yeah. I don't think uh frankly that's the role of the planning commission. I'm talking about the city.

Yeah. But in the parks master plan now I think the role of the would do that and take that into account. I think the role of the planning commission would be to when we look at parks, we should consider the cyclical nature of population and neighborhoods as they age and then regentify and things like that. I think that's a great concept because then the next time we update a parks master plan, what we should be doing in the parks master plan is going to look at that language in the general plan saying, "Okay, when we hire a consultant, this is the this is an aspect of it we want you to look at to get the answers that we need in this more detailed plan."

And one quick comment, having read the parks master plan in the last month, that a lot of this is here. It is actually a really good layout of what we need, what the demographics are, what all this sort of stuff is, you know, and going through and pulling out and saying, "Okay, what are the real overall arching goals?" Again, like I said, what are some of the arching goals that we're missing? If open space is maybe we need to beef up open space if you know, needing more skate park amenities or biking amenities.

Absolutely. But I mean, as we and as we look at the Family City USA and we think of what we need, some of these things might not be ly we need some little football areas, too. I mean, we have open fields, but we've never actually specified them for football areas. We use the city the the diamonds, the outside of the diamonds for some of these football games all the time, but we actually never dedicated space for the football. And if you look through it, also do note that a lot of the things it suggests to do have been done. There's been a lot of updings to the parks, especially over CO things that were suggested there, a lot of it has been done, too. So, just kind of if you do look at it, keep that in mind. Are you going to I think we need to

our uh main meeting is at 5:30. We have four minutes. So,

Oh, and military. It Is she? How's it going? Gentlemen. Okay. We will call this meeting of the PL Orm city planning

commission to order at 5:30 on November 19th, 2025 in the um city council chambers here in Worm. And we will begin with an invocation by Commissioner Scar. our father in heaven. We're so grateful for all the blessing he blessed our city with. We're so grateful for uh this council and and the city planning department and all the work they do and we so grateful the beautiful country that we live in. We appreciate it and we know the blessings that we're given and we ask you to guide us today um to do what's right for the city for the citizen and the city in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen.

Thank you. So, we'll begin with item 3.1, which is our consent agenda item, which is approval of minute approval of minutes from the November 5th, 2025 planning commission meeting. Do we have a motion on that? Uh, I move that we approve the uh Orm City Planning Commission uh consent agenda items. Okay. Do I have a second? I'll second it. Yeah, second. Rod be. So Mike moved and Rod seconded that we approve the consent agenda items. His I I I

I the consent agenda items are approved or item and then we will go to item 4.1 which is a preliminary plat. It's a Pearson subdivision located generally at 233 South 400 West. Jared,

thank you. Um, this is a, as you said, a preliminary subdivision uh, request for a two lot residential subdivision. I know what you're thinking right now. There are already two lots here. And you're right. There are two parcels here, but they've never been part of a subdivision before. Um, our code dictates then that we need to record a plat and correctly make these part of a subdivision because they want to change these lines right here to be different and have most of the property associated with the existing home and a new lot that's buildable made in this corner here. That's the that is the nickel tour version of this project. I'll give you the slightly longer version right now. Okay, so it's 1.13 acres. There is an existing home. Um, in the staff report, you might have noticed it talked about a historic cabin. It's being used as a shed right here. There's a historic building right there. Uh these structures would remain and they will all become part of proposed lot one. Um it is in two different zones. The majority of lot one, proposed lot one will wind up in the R8 zone that you can see the lighter yellow. Uh all of lot proposed lot two will be in the R7.5 zone. Um the way that our code reads because most of lot one will be in the R8 zone. That's the zone that would dictate or or have control. Um, this plan shows you kind of the the proposed lot too. And if you remember from right here, it just kind of reverses what's happening on the properties right now in the formal subdivision. It'll kind of reverse roles. So, a smaller lot here, 7,992 ft² gets created for lot 2 for a new exist for a new home to be built uh in that zone. And then the existing home would occupy the larger 43,629 ft lot one, proposed lot one. Um the plat will also uh provide easements that are necessary. That's one of the reasons that we do it. Um there have been some uh there'll be some changes for the easements for the final plat that are that make these these lot lines work. Uh that's all been reviewed by the technical review committee and they've recommended approval. The TDRC or the DRC met uh and recommended that it be

moved to the planning commission for your review. So u do you have any questions for staff at this point? These existing structures will all remain by the way. It's not that the new home won't be built here, just on the new lot, too. Any questions for staff? Nope. I don't believe there are any questions. Just curious the rhyme or reason for the shed placement. I I think that I think this this shed here or do you mean that looks like an old house? This was this was a cabin. It predates the home. Yeah. I just you know you look at where they are existing shed they just it's a little weird. Randomly placed where it's organized the way I would organize things, Mike. And no one understands it. So, it's okay. Fair enough.

So, okay. Any further questions? Right. Since this is an administrative item, we're the final deciders on this. So, do we have a motion? I move that the ORM city planning commission approve the request for preliminary approval for the Pearson subdivision plat A. Okay. I second that. Okay. Rod moved and Jim seconded that we approve the plat preliminary plat. Uh Jim I I I I I I Okay. Item 4.1 is approved. Okay. Any other business?

We do actually have one other uh item of business we needed to bring up for you. It's not really a discussion necessarily, but Becca has some info for you.

Hello. Can Oh, can you hear me? Okay. All right. So, it is the the witching hour of commissions, um the end of the year, so we're going to have to be looking at um our calendar for 2026. um we have kind of something already put together um so we can email that out and get everybody looking at it um and then bring it forward to vote um most likely on the on the final um planning commission of this year as as long as everybody or at least most of everybody is able to attend. Um we also have a few other items. There's a there's some training that we'll have to do um with everybody. Um, I'm assuming uh we could probably pick a work session to go over that. Um, it's just a state video that kind of talks about what your like open Yeah, the open meetings and um that kind of stuff. Um, and then we'll also have to be looking at um reelecting the chair and vice chair. Um, so I'm assuming we could probably do the the calendar and the chair and vice chair. um either on the last the final December meeting or we could do it um on the 1st of January.

Per our bylaws, it's the first meeting in January for when chair election is done. Okay, awesome. Then yeah, we should do the calendar in December. Yeah. Okay. Then we'll plan on that. Want to do it in our next meeting just because as we get closer to Christmas, that might be a harder meeting. That's just my Yeah. lessly attended. Yeah. Lighter lighter attendance to Christmas. then we will fasttrack that and make sure it's it's ready for our next upcoming one. Okay. Thank you. All right. If there's Oh, do you have something, Gary?

I do. Uh December 1st is the lights on ceremony for uh the city center park here. Um it's uh we affectionately call it our hallmark movie studio. Um, we have 700,000 lights that'll be on. Uh, come. It's Monday, December 1st. It starts at 5. Lights on. There will be a little bit of a program. Lights on will be approximately uh 5:30. Uh, the ORM train will be there. all of you. If if you'd like to ride the train, I'll take your picture uh for you. There's just a lot of great activities. It's a wonderful community thing. And I believe uh in actual numbers, we were talking about some things. I I believe the number was 8,000 people were there last year. So, it's it it'll be the best and uh production we've had. Uh, it's really exciting. And there's free hot chocolate, by the way. So, please come.

Is that at the pavilion or the amphitheater? Park.

Yeah, at the park over by the uh amphitheater uh and the pavilion. And there's going to be uh vendors and different things. So, there's going to be a lot to see and do. It's it'll be just a great community activity. So, that's that's an opportunity. consider it uh homework for the general plan of you know parks and what you use parks for and different things and how to grow community and build community. So it's a wonderful activity and hopefully you all can make it and uh bring family and friends because it's actually going to be pretty cool. I have uh kids coming from Salt Lake who are going to come down and go to it with us.

That's awesome. Thank you. Okay. All right. With no further business, we can have a motion to adjurnn. I motion that we adjourn. Okay. I'll second that. Okay. Mike moved and Rod seconded that we adjourn. Humming. I I Okay, we're adjourned at 5:40 p.m. Thank you. No, thanks everybody.