City Council - Regular Meeting

Troop 1776. So I invite you to come up, Tristan.

Please prepare in the manner you are accustomed. Heavenly Father, thank you for this day. Thank you for the rain, which we have so dearly needed. Thank you for our city council members and mayor that they can help govern the city and be willing to do that. Thank you for our police officers, firemen, and first responders that help serve the city so well and keep us safe and protected and help us when we're in trouble. Please bless that throughout this meeting, that the city council members and the people speaking shall be guided, and that a proper decision shall be made in any problem to come up, that the Lord be with us in this meeting. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Amen.

Will the audience please rise? Place your hand over your heart and repeat the pledge with me.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you.

Thank you, Tristan and Truen, for invocation and for leading us in the Pledge of Allegiance. We really, really appreciate it. Also, I think that your scout troop member is pretty cool. So, yeah, good one. All right. Well, this council meeting has one item on the agenda. And it is a public hearing, an ordinance and public hearing, adopting an increase to the property tax rate, approving and adopting a final budget for fiscal year 2026, 2027, including levying a property tax sufficient to increase ongoing property tax, revenues by $450,000 a year, adopting the dedication of the general operations portion of the City of Orem's property tax levy to the Public Safety Special Revenue Fund, adopting compensation programs, adopting the fees and charges schedule, adopting the franchise tax, municipal energy sales and use tax, telecommunications license tax, transient room tax, and E-911 rates. So before I turn the time over to Brandon Nelson, our chief financial officer, I just want to talk to you about how things are going to go tonight as far as this order and process. Part of this has never been done before. The state law specifies how to have these public hearings, whether it's called a truth of taxation hearing. Typically, when we have public hearings, we take public comment from those who are actually physically present in the room. Tonight, we need to be taking public comment from those who are not here. So we're here virtually. Pete, or Mr. Wolfley, how many do we have? One? Okay. So what we're going to do is each person who would like to speak, we have some seats up here. They're all taken right now. that have the reserve signs. And so what I'd like to, if we could have, we'll go ahead and start with you, sir, in just a couple minutes. And you'll have three minutes to speak. And on the little podium thing, there's a thing that just asks you, the city recorder is asked that you state your name and whether or not you're a NORM resident. And you have the three minutes. And then we'll take three people, the first three here, and then we'll go ahead and have three people from participating online. And then we'll go back and do three more just to kind of keep it even as far as just recognizing that we have people in the room as well in the on the computer. So just as a reminder for those of you who might be online, the Zoom link is for those of you who would like to make a public comment. Pete Wolfley will call on you. you're in the zoom link and so of course if you don't want to make a comment you can say I don't have a comment but if you want to watch what's going on and not make a comment I would recommend that you go to the City of Orem YouTube channel and you can watch this meeting as well I'm just going through my list of things that say just want to remind everyone that please Please be respectful. We are all here for the same reason. We love our community. We want what's best for our community. There are connections that we have here. We may not always agree, but we're here for the same purpose, that we care about Orem. And I hope that this evening that we can treat each other with respect and with dignity as we go through and make hear from you and discuss and then make a decision. So this is the order that we will have. First off, we'll have Mr. Nelson give a presentation and then council will have the opportunity to ask Mr. Nelson any questions, comments, anything like that. And when he's finished, Jenica Jones from our staff will come up and do her presentation and we will, as a council, have the opportunity to ask questions and make comments. And after Ms. Jones is done, we'll have Chief Robinson from our police chief come up and give a presentation and then we will have that opportunity to ask him questions as well. And after that's done, We will make sure that we have asked all our questions that we want. I'll go ahead, and I will open the public hearing. And so as we do that, for the sake of just the flow of the meeting, what we're going to do is you make your comments. I've got a whole stack of paper. I see our council members have notepads. We have our staff. We're going to make a note of what you're asking and what are comments, but we're not going to answer them right then. so what we'll do is we'll gather them all up and then have the public hearing and then close the public hearing and then go ahead and answer the questions that that you may have that you presented or comments and respond and respond to those and then after that we'll go ahead and the city council will have some more discussion and then we will have a vote so Is that counsel? Are you okay with that flow on that? Okay. Again, I just want to emphasize those of you who are online, if you're on the Zoom link, you're going to be given the opportunity to speak. So if you're an introvert like me, which I really am an introvert, but when I go to the YouTube channel. So again, three minutes, but first we're gonna have the presentation by Mr. Brandon Nelson. Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor. As mentioned, We're here tonight to discuss the proposed increase in our property tax revenues for the City of Orem, increasing them by $450,000 by increasing the tax rate levy. So what I was going to do is go through the process by which how we got to this point. So first thing is just a brief budget calendar beginning in January with the council retreat, various discussion, work session discussions on various components of the budget throughout April and May, leading to the May 12th tentative budget presentation to the council from staff. After that date, we had a public hearing in June and to discuss that tentative budget and at that time, whether to in essence, move forward with the Truth in Taxation by moving forward with that tax increase proposal. And at that time, then, an interim budget was adopted beginning July 1st through today. Then we are here today on this August 27th. Just to touch on each of those items, during the April 14th work session, revenue and compensation were discussed. During the revenue portion of that particular work session, that's when the first time we discussed the proposed property tax increase and outlined some information related to that. And then, as mentioned, on May 12th, the tentative budget was presented. As part of that presentation before that presentation, Oh, lost something. There we go. There were several things. The mayor mentioned new state law around the tentative budget and truth in taxation. So during that meeting, I specifically had an agenda item where I specifically stated that there was a proposed property tax increase included in that tentative budget, as well as presenting on a second agenda item, a property tax impact schedule, which outlined the various items mentioned there. On May 13th, that proposed property tax impact schedule was placed on the city's website so that people could see that. On June 9th, then we had that council meeting regarding the tentative budget and whether to proceed with the proposed property tax increase. And if so, then it was adopted as the interim budget during that period. During that council meeting, I also had to stand up as a separate agenda item and indicate that there was a property tax increase in that tentative budget. And again, stated the various items on there. And during that meeting, this meeting date was set as the public hearing meeting date. In on July 10th, the website and public hearing instructions were created. We had a TNT website page on the city's website that was created with various information related to the property tax increase. We also built and included on there a property tax estimator calculator in there for residents and whoever was interested to be able to try to calculate what their particular home value would equate to in relation to that property tax increase. And then also the public hearing instructions for, as the Mayor mentioned, anyone wishing to participate virtually, those instructions were put on that main website so that they were there and ready for when this day occurred. On July 18th and 25th, Utah County then posted a combined notice of proposed tax increase that looks like this. Anybody in the county who was proposing a tax increase was included on this combined ad. In that combined ad, it lists all entities proposing a tax increase, the date that they have their truth and taxation hearing scheduled, the amount of the additional property tax revenue they were proposing to receive, how much of an increase that was, and then some other pertinent information related to contact information, where that T&T meeting would be held, and then the percentage increase. Then in late July, Utah County mailed all the property tax valuation notices to every owner of property in the county. In that notice, it noticed the amount that the city was requesting in property tax and also then noted the various elements related to this T&T meeting, public hearing meeting. On August 1st, the City of Orem posted its first notice of proposed tax increase advertisement, and that was placed in four different locations as required by state law. And then we also sent that notice to also local newspapers on the 1st, 8th, and 15th. And that notice looks like this. and outlines on an average Orem resident, which that average is determined by Utah County and given to us. And then it's calculated what that rate would increase from and to based on the tax, if the tax increase was improved and what kind of revenue that would produce as you can see there. And then again, down at the bottom indicating when this TNT meeting would be scheduled and where and what time. Then on August 27th, here we are. This Truth in Taxation is an opportunity to discuss the elements that were proposed as part of that proposed tax increase, as well as giving some information related to it. And then you as council members have the opportunity to ask questions of both staff and the public as they give their public input. Then Just so we're all aware, here is the proposed property tax impact schedule that was initially placed on our website and has continued to be there since May 13th, but since that was presented on the May 12th tentative budget meeting. In this proposed tax impact schedule, it outlines the change in the proposed tax rate levy from the certified tax rate, which you see at the top, 000590, would be proposed to go to 000631. You can see then there's some calculations in there to determine how much property tax revenue in total the city would receive if there was no increase, the $6.419370 million, and what it would look like if the proposed tax changes made and they increase that $450,000 increase, which represents a 7.01% increase in the total revenue of the city for property taxes. Then in the middle section there, you can see the estimated annual increase to a primary residence at 520,000. What that would mean on an annual basis and what percentage that is of their total tax related specifically to Orem City, not their entire tax bill. Then also has the same calculation related to businesses located in the city. Obviously, the primary residence receives a 45% exemption. So that's why their rate and the amount that is charged is less because of that exemption. And then down at the bottom, you can see what departments would be affected by this tax increase. So if the tax increases to go through, the police department would be receiving the $450,000. And what they are going to do with it is hire two additional police officers with associated vehicles and all of the equipment that go along with being a police officer here in the city of Orem. At this point, that's where we are. I just wonder, do you have any questions of me at this particular time? I will be up here the whole time of the meeting, so you're welcome to ask me at any time, not necessarily just right now.

All right, thank you. Council, do you have any questions for Mr. Nelson at this time? Council Member Gale?

Can you tell us, please, when was the last time Orem changed the property tax rate for residents? I believe it was 2019. Thank you. And can you also tell us, and I think you had it on your slide there, but just so that we all know, what percent of the total tax bill a resident sees would be for Orem City?

Orem is approximately 14% of the total tax bill.

So we're raising, proposing to raise property taxes on that 14%. Thank you.

right thank you anybody any other council members all right thank you um ms jones where's jenna oh there you there you are welcome i'll turn the time over to you

Okay, thank you, Mayor and Council. So I'm just going to be presenting some additional public safety data and police data. So I'll just kind of go through these tables and charts and feel free to stop me at any time. So the police department's fixed costs we've reviewed and all of them have been significantly increasing over time. So this table over here on the left is showing the cost of a patrol car. So in 2016, that was about $37,000 before the outfit. And then now in 2026, that's almost doubled over that 10-year period to close to $70,000. This chart here shows our overtime, number of employees, number of total overtime hours, and total cost for the department over the past, since fiscal year 17. You'll notice we have had a significant increase these past few years. In fiscal year 26, almost 18,000 hours of overtime for the department. You will see that some of these previous years there was a higher number of employees, hours, cost than some of the more recent years. Most of that is due to dispatch. We used to have our own in-house dispatch and in fiscal year 23 that merged with Metro dispatch. So that's a big reason for that. But we have seen a steady increase the past few years since having kind of just our steady staffing model and a huge increase in fiscal year 26. Fuel has also been increasing in fiscal year 21 to fiscal year 25. We've had about $100,000 increase that we've had to pay for the department's fuel or about 40% increase for that. And then also uniforms and firearms have increased quite significantly over that same time period. So these next few charts are some comparative data that kind of shows where does Orem sit in relation to other cities that are similar size or nearby. So these charts on this page are reflective of public safety, so it's both police and fire, but per resident, where does Orem sit? So on these charts, Orem is green. The average city of these comparative cities is yellow. Total police and fire FTEs, we have 2.2 per thousand residents compared to the average of 2.5. You'll notice obviously a wide variation in that. And then obviously, as we know, Orem has a quite significant daytime population as we have UVU, a lot of people commuting in for that, as well as a large retail environment. So when we factor in daytime population, we have about 1.8 total public safety FTEs per thousand of our daytime population. That's the lowest of these comparative cities. This chart here shows what our public safety budget per resident is. Again, we're on the low end of these comparative cities. Combined police and fire budget, $344 per resident compared to that average of $427. And then property tax revenue per resident. This is just general property tax. So it excludes things like bonds and other things like that that are not related to general property tax. But Orem is again at the bottom of this chart at $84 general property tax per revenue per resident compared to where those other cities sit. And so this chart here is specific to police, sworn police officers. The previous chart was staffing for police and fire. So we have 1.1 sworn police officers per thousand residents below that average, slightly below that average. So, and close to some of the other similar sized cities. We don't have a chart for this on here, but also experiences a similar trend with the daytime population as well where that factors in quite significantly. And then we do have 105 sworn officers, and that puts us a little above the average number of officers. So that's about 19% above the average is 88 officers, but we're about 30% above the average population of these comparable cities and 42% above the average daytime population. that factors into that as well. So that is the information I have on these. Happy to answer any questions. Go back and look at any chart more closely if you'd like.

All right. Thank you. I do have a question on the chart that talks about the general property tax revenue per resident. Does that include, is that just residential property tax revenue, or does that include the businesses as well?

It's all. So that's not necessarily what a resident pays. It's just saying how much general property tax does that city collect divided by the number of residents.

Okay, thank you. Council, do you have, okay, Council Member Mecham has a question.

Thanks very much, Jenica. This is really valuable information. So if my math is correct, and I guess I'm just trying to get validation that it is, that on this page here, that with the proposed increase in taxes, we would still be substantially lower than everyone on this list. So we would retain our position as the lowest property tax revenue per resident among comparable cities.

Yes. I don't have the exact dollar amount of how this calculation would work. Sorry. Maybe it'll pop up. But the 84 is lower than a resident's pay, so it would increase by less than the $12.

It seems to me that if it's a $450,000 increase and we have close to 100,000 residents, then we're talking about a $5 increase per resident on average, which would put us still maybe $89 on that charge, right? And then can you scroll to the one right above that? Um, and so again, uh, assuming that this revenue all goes to public safety, that does not change our position at my comparable cities in the public safety budget per resident either. Right. Because, uh, we're still substantively lower than not only the average, but even Spanish form.

Yes.

Okay. Thank you.

All right. Council. Are there any other questions or comments for, uh, Ms. Jones? All right.

Are you guys going to be there?

You're just going to because I might have a question after the is that okay? Yeah. Okay. I'll be here. Yeah. We're not going to let her go.

All right. Thank you. We'll go ahead now and hear from chief Robinson. Our police chief.

Mayor and City Council, my pleasure to be here today. Thank you for considering this. Some have suggested that the tax increase is not warranted if calls for service have not increased in the last several years. While this perspective is understandable, our request for tax increase to support two additional officers was never based on an increase in calls for service. Rather is about giving our officers the resources to handle increasingly difficult calls and manage staffing challenges while maintaining the high standard of service our community expects. As a 25 year Orem officer and your current police chief, I want to provide you a boots on the ground perspective of our operational reality behind this request for two officers and address why metrics like crime rates or response times do not tell the full story. While the 2021 study found baseline staffing adequate at the time, operational strain has increased significantly. Our present-day demand for service is driven primarily by the complexity, not just call volume. We're seeing a rise in highly critical cases such as domestic violence, sexual assault, mental health crises, and they all demand significantly more police hours and documentation. These type of calls are just simply taking longer to do correctly. Adding two additional officers would increase our ability to handle these more intensive cases. With these increasing demands, we've had to make some difficult decisions, including permanently pulling officers from our traffic team, community policing, and mental health units. This has greatly impacted our ability to engage in proactive police work that helps stop crime before it ever starts. Even just two officers would help us get back to a more

a more balanced approach of our important community work.

Another driver behind this request is lag time required to replace and properly onboard an officer. Since 2014, we average 13 new hires per year. And while every new hire instantly counts against our 105 budgeted positions, they cannot count towards minimum staffing or be put on the street by themselves. takes between four and 12 months due to completing the police academy and field training. Between turnover, injuries, both on and off duty, military leave, required training, and just an officer trying to get a day off. Our available staffing is always significantly lower than our authorized and budgeted staffing. Two years ago, we had to institute a force-out procedure where officers were mandated to extend their current shift or come in early from their already scheduled shift just to cover basic patrol minimums. Voluntary overtime was no longer sufficient in bridging these coverage gaps. Relying on this level of overtime is not sustainable and is extremely concerning. Adding two officers will aid much needed flexibility to the department and give us a capacity to absorb turnover without compromising officer wellness or community safety. The funding landscape over the last several years has also changed. Since 2020, we've incrementally added seven officers through federal COP grants. Those federal funds pay for the salaries of those officers for the first 30 years and they have expired. We were not awarded any in our last application. Funding these two officers with a dedicated property tax would help stabilize our budget and make us less reliant on the unpredictable outside dollars. In my 25 year career, I have never felt like we have been fat with officers. We haven't trimmed. We have always done more with less, because that is the Orem way. But we finally reached a breaking point to where we need to cover the most basic police services. We have to cut into the muscle of our organization, which we have done. I'm here today. If we cut any more, we're going to be cutting into bone. To be completely honest with you, your department is stretched too thin. And they're tired. I'm tired. Because I see it. I know the heartbeat of this department. But due to these dedicated officers and individuals that make up our department, Our excellent culture, our commitment to a very high standard level of service and our willingness to sacrifice for this community. Most of you wouldn't see it. Our response times remain excellent and public complaints are few, but it comes at a price. Our officers are deeply committed to this community. Maintaining the standard with our current staffing places heavy burden on every officer. Increasing our staffing to 107 gives our team breathing room. They need to stay sharp, balanced, and effective. This creates a buffer against turnover and reduces force over time. It supports our officers long-term wellbeing so they can deliver the high level services Orem residents expect and are accustomed to. I remain committed to providing that standard to the citizens of Orem. And that is why I'm here tonight. Thank you for your continued support of our department and of all the departments of the city. as we work together to build and make Orem the best place to live, work, and play. Thank you. Any questions?

All right. Thank you, Chief. Do you have any questions? All right. Councilmember Muehlstein. Thank you, Chief.

We so appreciate the work that you do for our city. In one of the slides that Jenica had, or one of the graphs that she had, it showed that there are 18,000 hours of overtime by the police department this past year. if I'm doing my math right at roughly 40 hours a week over 50 weeks, if we're counting two weeks PTO, that's 2000 hours for a full-time officer. So that would be nine officers equivalent of overtime. Does that sound right?

I'll trust your math over money. Yes, and that's total overtime. That's not just to cover shortages. That's events. That's every overtime dollar.

So this proposed tax increase is for two officers. It's a very small tax increase, and it sounds like it's not... going to actually be what is needed but is a dent in what is needed do you have an estimate of what would put our police department in a more comfortable situation to where it's not stretched so thin of how many officers 13.

Because that's the average that we turn over every year and have hired year over year over year for the last 12 years.

Thank you. All right. Thank you. Council Member Millett.

Yeah. Okay. I'm not even sure what to say here.

I'll listen to it all.

Yes. And part of this is, I mean, today is when I heard the gravity of this situation. I... I'm deeply bothered that this, I appreciate your positivity these past few months. I appreciate the hard work that our police have put in. I know a few months ago we set aside hiring two police officers to keep other police. in order to provide money for advancements for some of our other officers because it's a competitive business out there. We don't want other cities. You do a great job with culture.

Thank you.

But we've got to put, you know, food on the table, allow our officers to do that. This is a little disturbing to me right now, quite frankly, to hear this today at this moment when we've been researching all of this. Because I deeply support the police. I feel that our police and fire are the number one priority of our city and of any city. The unsung heroes. So I appreciate your candid comments. tonight very much and I truly appreciate your leadership that you have demonstrated these past months. So I guess I'm just going to leave it at that until we have a little more to say a little bit later. Thanks, Chief.

Thank you. All right. Thank you. All right. It'll just work. I think you all had... Did you all have... Okay. Then after Council Member Lambs and Council Member Mecham.

So I'm not even going to try to attempt math, but with these two officers... Where does that get us closer to the average? I know it's not going to be the end all fix all from what you're describing, but. There was a slide that showed the fiscal year, the one that Council member meal stealing for to the number of hours. Will this get us closer to the average?

I would say any additional officers that we can put on the road will help. I don't want to – what is the average? Forum is a different city than Provo.

14,634. Say what? Oh, for overtime. I'm sorry. Yeah, for the overtime.

It will definitely help. It will not negate overtime. There will still be overtime. We will still have shortages. We will still have those challenges. Okay. Two officers will help solve the problem. Two officers will not solve the problem.

More I've learned about and its finances, the more I realize that part of the way we operate here is we always try to do more with less. I've been impressed with previous city councils and administrations as well as the city staff at always looking for opportunities to trim and create efficiencies. And I think, you know, we're a city council that really tries to be as fiscally conservative as we can and. And I appreciate hearing your remarks tonight, Chief, just because sometimes we get it a little bit wrong, right? We can go a little bit too thin on occasion in a way that negatively impacts our personnel or our services. And so hearing you talk a little bit about how The way this might impact your culture, which is something we deeply value is just is just great. And we appreciate you bring this request to us and I just really appreciate you being here with us tonight. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay, council member.

Okay. So, just because I just remembered when we gave our fire fighters or fire some. We restructured their salaries and advancements. there were some issues for a little bit about that there wasn't as much overtime available. Everyone likes a little bit overtime, but you don't want to get burned out on the overtime. Kind of give me your thoughts on that from your force. How do they feel about overtime? Are they completely burned out? Do they want some? Do they want to hire 19 officers? Where are you on this?

We're having to force officers out, and how that works is if this is our minimum staffing, you know, seven plus Bren, which actually is our minimum staffing for a swing shift is seven officers and a supervisor, and you call in sick... or whatever the circumstance may be, I need to have an officer there to make sure the proper services are provided to the city and that the rest of you guys are safe because you're adequately staffed. And so a page goes out. And then we wait. And then a page goes out. And then we wait. And then we wait. And nobody takes it. And Bren's a supervisor on duty. And he calls his buddy, Pete, hey, I need you tonight. Sarge, I've worked too many shifts. I need a break. But I'll come in. And so he fills his shift, or her shift. Not everybody's like Pete. Not everybody's able to do it because they are tired and they're burned out. So we had to institute a mandatory call out where every year it resets and every time that that call went out and you voluntarily came in for however many hours that you worked that overtime shift, that would go to your number and cycle you back down on the list. And if nobody came out after all the waiting, nobody volunteered for waiting, we go down to the list as to who we would force out. We wouldn't force anybody out that was on their day off. So that usually fell to a swing shift officer or a day shift officer either staying late or come in early. So they're working...

Potentially a 16 18 hour shift depending on on the time that they actually come in so follow-up question then I'm trying to remember February March is when we gave those Slots for the two officers we reallocated that funding Is there a reason why we didn't hire officers back then we've been hiring on officers constantly we've hired 17 officers this year and

I want to say eight have left for various reasons this year. That's what we're faced over the last 10, 12 years. Policing over the last 10, 12 years and the profession, this is not a unique problem to Orem, but it's the turnover. It's officers leaving for the private sector. It's officers being terminated. It's officers moving to the next city over for whatever reason. It's a better circumstance for them, whatever they choose. But it's a continual turnover that we've seen. And I use 2014 just as a benchmark because that's when it significantly began. And that's the reason why.

So you haven't been denied funding?

Have not been denied funding, much of the same reason I'm not asking for 13, is I don't want to hire 13 today and try to train them all up. Officers continually having to train new officers is a great strain on that officer training. So you're training somebody for three weeks, and then you're training somebody for three weeks, and then you get a week off. And then you're training the next one for three weeks. That's the problems that we're facing as a profession and that we're experiencing here in Orem.

Thank you. Thanks, Chief.

All right. Council Member Gale.

So I know we ask a lot of our officers, and they deliver, and they do it with such professionalism. And I've had firsthand experience working with them in the last week, in fact, and I was so impressed. And they didn't know who I was. They were just delivering that level of service because that's who they are. My question is, how does this mandatory call-outs, is that what you called it, how does that impact retention? How does the stress that you feel like they're under, how does that impact retention of officers?

It's not positive. So I have a one-on-one with every employee on their month of their anniversary. So if you get hired in August, then I have a scheduled meeting. Some of those conversations are that. Tell me what's going right, what's going wrong. What good ideas do you have for improvement? How can we get better? That's a topic of conversation in many is just being able to get a day off, being able to work, not minimum staffed. That's like Christmas when you have seven officers plus two more and nobody's taking time off or nobody's off for an injury or nobody's gone for a training. Holy cow. That's Christmas on August 27th. And so that's how I would answer that.

Thank you. Any other comments? Well, I'm going to say a couple things. First of all, I just want to echo the appreciation that the others have stated for you and your team. This is heavy stuff. As I was doing my research for this and thought about the different types of calls that you receive, it's one thing to pull me over for a traffic stop. It's another thing to be part of a DV or a sexual assault or a severe mental health crisis situation. That's the toll it takes on our officers. I can't imagine I think about the situations in my prior employment where I worked a lot with those who experienced all three of those things. And the weight that one carries when one is dealing with that, it's not how many, it's, I wouldn't say it's quality, meaning that it's, not that it's good quality, but it's what's involved, not just the paperwork and the investigations, but I would say the mental toll that it would have on dealing with the types of situations that our society seems to be seeing an increase of. So I just want to state that that really stood out to me as I was doing my research, is the types of calls that you get and just how it affects one's soul, for lack of a better word. I do have a question. Last September, I experienced a horrible tragedy here in Orem with the murder of Charlie Kirk. And wondering, and you and I have talked about this a little bit, but if you wanted to expand a little bit more, what impact did that experience of having gone through something like that, Due to what you as the chief saw would be the needs in ORM, even though that was at UVU, I'm sure that you took a look at how, okay, now we need to look at how we do things in ORM. And I want to understand, did that have an impact on this request as well? And then what... What kinds of things are you thinking?

I would have made this request absent that event. Those conversations were... I can distinctly remember conversations with Bren in March and April of seeing today of how heavy it is right now, of knowing how many we were down, how many we had hired but that were still in the academy. Currently, I think we have seven on FTO, and I think they were hired in April, and they may be off. by the end of September. And so I know that they're there and I have a name on the list, but I don't get to count them until October. So I would have made this request without that. How that impacted us was, that was a bad week for everybody involved, to say the least. I would say nearly every one of our officers were working those entire four days. If the suspect was not apprehended, we were about to go on mandatory 12-hour rotations. in order to keep up the needs of the investigation and still keep our city running. So on the backside of that being to look at our public events and how many events or how many people are at our successful food truck events or farmers markets in the park. Bren first asked me if we could have officers that are on duty patrol that and just swing by every now and then. Maybe. Likely not. Why? Because I only have six or seven of you working, and the call load does not allow for us to really swing by and give you the security that they feel. So we have staffed that with additional officers on overtime so that the people in that park have an officer presence. If you remember to the night of the vigil on September 11th, How did it feel being circled by dozens of officers? How did it feel? I can feel it today like I'm looking at you now. So we provide you two. And if it overwhelms the two, then the cavalry's coming. I don't know how else to answer that.

Appreciate that. Thank you. All right, Council Member Lamson.

Thank you, Chief. I want to mention something also that I think a lot of times we don't think about or don't know about, and that is your family at home.

I can't even imagine the things that you and your officers, and I would extend this to our fire team, the things that you witness, the things that you experience, and the things that you feel. When your shift's over, you can't just leave that on the desk. That becomes a part of who you are. and a very heavy load that you carry. And who's there to meet you when you get home? Your spouse? A good dog? Kids? I've got all three, luckily. You're a lucky man. But this doesn't stop with you. That ripple is not just a little ripple. I believe that it's a tidal wave at times that your family has to deal with. And I want to make sure that they don't go unmentioned in their needs, their emotional things that they have to deal with when dad comes home or mom comes home and they've just been to hell. And anyway, I just want to thank them for what they put up with and what they have to deal with when dad comes home and he's a little grumpy or won't talk. We're grateful for them too. And we know that they're not officially sworn officers. But they're part of the team, and they're part of the reason for the success that you have as a Northern Police Department. And again, I would extend that to the Fire Department. We're grateful that they put up with and allow you to do the work that you've chosen to do. And... Sometimes they are the unsung heroes in the background, quietly making sure that life carries on. And we love them as well. We're grateful for all that they do to support you and your officers. Thank you.

Thank you. Any other comments, questions? All right. Thank you, Steve. Before I open the public hearing, I do have a question, again, for Brandon, Mr. Nelson. As I was looking through what the proposed ordinance is, there's something new there this year besides this proposal for a property tax increase, but it's to... the words Public Safety Special Revenue Fund. I can tell you when I got my tax notice, and I just kind of chugged through it, and I knew it was there to see a new, in red, the way that they have to do it in red, it says the Public Safety Special Revenue Fund, and then it will have a 100%, and it's like, holy smokes, what's happened? And then you got to go up and you look at the general fund and that's been zeroed out. Would you mind just taking a moment to talk about what the property, the public safety special revenue fund is and what did people see on their tax forms?

You bet. So the special revenue fund was put into place because the city would like to have the entire city property tax dedicated to public safety. State law requires that if that dedication were to occur, that there must be a special revenue fund created to receive those property tax dollars. Now, even without a dedication, the city on its own could create a special revenue fund if there were special revenues associated with that. And that would be reported individually. The city could also create that fund just as a separate way of accounting. just to keep track of the public safety department separately. It would then have to be blended into our general fund for all reporting purposes. But it could be still there, right? Our development fees fund operates that way, where it's a separate accounting fund, but for all reporting purposes, it is blended into our general fund. So those are the three reasons for creating the fund, as well as an ability to see the specific elements related to public safety. And see, in the bottom line, we have to transfer we say sales tax dollars, we have to transfer revenues from the general fund to cover whatever fees and or taxes are not covering the cost of public safety. And so it outlines specifically what those costs are. I'm trying to remember the other part of the question.

Just an explanation of what they saw.

We needed to create the fund and move it. A part of that June 9th meeting where we intended to move forward with this meeting and as part of that, we also intended to move forward with the dedication of that property tax. I had to notify the Utah County. of that dedicate intended dedication so then they put that on the tax bill for that because of that intention okay so if for whatever if we were in to not go forward with that dedication then utah county would remove that line item from the actual tax bill and it would then show up IN THAT GENERAL CITY. BACK IN THE GENERAL FUND. GENERAL FUND, YES.

THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT.

COUNCILMEMBER GALE. YOU, I THINK, MENTIONED THIS BEFORE, BUT CAN YOU JUST REMIND US WHAT PERCENT OF THE PUBLIC SAFETY BUDGET THIS TAX INCREASE WILL COVER?

Well, it's $40 million is the public safety cost. And so property taxes with the increase would be approximately $8.1 million. So let's see, what is that, 20%?

And the rest will be funded by what?

The rest would be covered by ambulance revenues. various inspection revenues, our contracts with Linden and Vineyard for fire and EMS and dispatch services, and then some other smaller revenue sources. And then as mentioned, the remaining $25 million is covered by revenues from the general fund. Which are from? Sales tax? Can be whichever source you want to call from, whether it's sales tax, franchise tax, interest, earnings, et cetera. Okay.

Thank you. You bet. All right. Thank you. Council Member Millett.

So just because I don't remember, do you transfer that $25 million into that fund or do we just keep it in the general fund and use it as needed?

So my intention would be then probably quarterly to evaluate the costs that are in that fund and where we sit, and then I would do that transfer each quarter and then try to, as close as possible, true that up near year end.

Okay. So as needed, you'll still have funds in the general fund, then transfer. Thank you.

All right. Anybody else? All right, what you all have come for. And it's time for a public hearing. Just before you got started, sir, I'm just going to reiterate a couple of things. And then I'll turn the time over to you. Carly over here. Carly, did I call you Carly and you're not your Caitlin? This wonderful human right here, and I'm just totally embarrassed, and I'm going to turn as red as my sweater here, because it will help keep up on this front row. This front row is set aside for those who would like to speak. And so as one person gets up, if there's someone else who would like to speak, go ahead and take their seat, and we'll just kind of work our way down here. Oh, I was going to say, you don't have to move seats. We'll just move down, unless you want to move seats, but... Okay, for everybody, maybe that you probably enjoy having your legs stretch out. And so just move on down and then kind of like an odd musical chairs. We need to have a song or something, but maybe not. So again, we're going to have our public hearing. We're going to have three minutes, and then we're going to really have to stick to the three-minute time. And so if you go over, Teresa will be reminding you that it's time to stop. And then let me make sure. And then again, with those who repeat, who do we have? How many do we have on Zoom? Okay, so we'll do first three, and then we'll go do three on the Zoom, and then come back and do three. So, again, I ask that you keep it to three minutes. And what's that?

What's that?

Oh, yes, if you could look up on the podium and ask if you state your name and whether you're an ORM resident. So, sir, welcome. The time is yours.

Hi there. Thanks for having me today. My name is Mike Preston, and I live in ORM. First of all, I just want to say that I love and appreciate the ORM community. Police department and firefighters. I've had a chance to interact with several of them and over the years. So my remarks I hope is no way disparaging of them. Okay. So I just really appreciate them. Since 2017, when we moved into our present home, we have watched our property taxes go from $2,900 to $4,200 in nine years, which is a 67% increase. We are retired and live on a fixed income and can't help but feel we are being taxed right out of our home. Before I complete my remarks, I want to preface them by saying a few words. about what our founding fathers thought about property tax, which maybe we've forgotten. First of all, they abhorred it. They abhorred property taxes. And here's why. George Washington said, if government can tax your property without your say, your consent, It soon holds power over your very life. Property is the root stock of liberty itself. The founders also felt that a freehold, your bit of earth, and a roof over your head meant independence. If a magistrate or parliament could seize it at will or tax it until you cannot keep it, you are not a free man. And that just makes us tenants at sufferance, not free citizens. In other words, we're just paying rent. And that just makes property and liberty rise and fall together. I want to make it clear again. I'm not against having more police or firemen. I just think that. They can be funded from sources other than property taxes. If our taxes are raised, no matter how much or how little for everything that governments have to. figure out. It will never stop and it will eventually spin out of control until people on fixed incomes like me will have to leave our homes that they worked for most of their lives to acquire. Raising taxes is simply taking the easy way out when other solutions are available. I'm not here tonight to beg and plead with you not to raise my taxes. I'm telling you to not raise my taxes because you would be doing it against my consent. As elected officials, I feel that you take our welfare into consideration. And by raising our taxes, I don't believe you're doing that. You're taking advantage of us. Thank you. Thank you.

All right, before before his Cox comes, I just ask that you refrain from applauding. I know that there are people here that you feel that people are saying things that you agree with and maybe not agree with, but I just ask that we not we not applaud. Thank you. Welcome.

Thank you. I'm Judy Cox. I've been an resident for 34 years and 1st, I want to clearly state that I fully support our police and fire all public safety and believe that they're a core priority of the city. And after listening to the very emotional. Messages tonight that we heard from the chief, I believe that we need to have some, some extra officers to support them. But I also believe it sounds like the challenges are much greater than a 450,000 dollar property tax can address. This all started back in May when the council created a special revenue fund solely for public safety, funneling property tax from the general fund to cover their existing budget. But you all knew in June the request would be made for two additional officers, and because of that action of putting it in a special revenue fund, it created a false shortfall and So a false shortfall was created. So the claim could be made that a tax hike was the only way to correct that, even though the city has enough flexibility to absorb a small $450,000 request. Future property tax growth is now locked into public safety only. All other departments must compete with the reduced general fund, setting up future artificial crises that will be used to justify more tax increases. This action gives public safety guaranteed funds, which breeds unchecked growth. Shielding one department from the budgeting process ensures that it expands while everything else feels the pinch. This special revenue fund is not an ironclad commitment to public safety or to transparency because it can be altered by any future council through a simple ordinance change. Instead, I believe it was a move intended to make the tax hike more sellable to you and to the public. This is about increasing taxes in a city that has a history of very few tax increases. Rather than wearing that longstanding record as a badge of honor, especially in a thriving community like we have, you have approved a financial shell game and are now asking residents to bail out a manufactured crisis. This is bad public policy, creating an unchecked fund for one department while tightening funds for others and then asking taxpayers to make up the difference. An accounting shift in May does not justify a tax increase in August. Fix this. Hold faith with those who elected you. Vote no on the tax increase. Work with existing discretionary funding to hire the officers that we clearly need. and commit to dismantling this revenue fund so that we can get out of a trap that sets us all up for future tax hikes. Thank you.

Right. Thank you. Right.

Welcome.

Hi.

I'm Kathy Young, and I want to talk about what's possible. For four years under the previous mayor and council, this city did not raise property taxes one time, not once. And that stretch covered the worst inflation this country has seen in 40 years. Fuel, asphalt, equipment, health insurance, wages, everything this city buys went up hard all at once. Nobody handled, nobody handed that council an easy budget. Here's what they did instead. They cut costs. They went line by line and found things the city could live without. They went out and raised millions of dollars from grants so the residents didn't have to. And they spent less than the city took in every single year. That's the most meaningful part of your job. That's why our residents elected you. So my question tonight is straightforward, and I'd like an answer before anybody votes. What has this council cut? What did you look at and decide Orem could do without this year? What grant money did you go and find? Where is the list of alternatives you worked through before you decided to raise taxes? I've watched these meetings. I've heard the budget discussions. What I see is a proposal to raise taxes and restructuring to make the next tax increase easier. I don't see the hard work that's supposed to come first. Understand what I'm saying and what I'm not. I'm not saying the city has no needs. Every city has needs, and I want our police and fire departments funded well. I vote for that tomorrow. What I'm saying is that raising taxes is the easiest thing an elected official will ever do. It takes about four minutes, and it's always easier to say yes. Closing the same gap by managing the budget is months of work. It means going through every department, finding real savings, chasing outside money, and telling somebody no. It makes people in this room unhappy with you. That's the difficult part. That's the part you were elected for. Let's remind you, four years, no tax increase, worse inflation in 40 years. It isn't a theory, and it isn't ancient history. It happened in this building with this budget and some of the same staff. So when you tell us tonight that there's no other way, understand that we've seen the other way. We lived through it. What's changed isn't the math. What's changed is a willingness to do the hard work. That's what tonight is really about, not the 12th. dollars the year the years after it once this this fund exists it will always fall short of its own name and that shortfall becomes the reason to come back every year for more money a little at a time never enough to fight over and the hard work of going through this budget line by line stops happening i'd rather be governed by people that I would rather be governed by people than by a formula. When a council has to come make its case every year, we get to hear the reasoning, and you get to hear from us. That's the part worth protecting, and it's the part the structure gives away. So vote the increase down and send the restructure back. Manage the budget the way you should, and if the need is still there next spring, come tell us, and we'll listen. ARM has never turned down something we understand and believe in. Thank you. Thank you. All right.

Pete. Be ready to go with our first person who is online. Welcome.

All right. This is Bradley speaking here. We will give the first time to Sissy Rasmussen. Sissy, you will now have the opportunity to comment. Remember to state your name and whether you are an Orem resident. I'll grant you permission to unmute and turn on your camera, and your three minutes will begin when you begin speaking. And if you do not wish to comment, simply state that you do not wish to comment. And afterwards, we will hear from Marion Baxter followed by Troy.

All right. Welcome, Sissy.

Okay, can you hear me okay? Yes. It does not allow me to turn on my video at this time, so I will just go with audio. I am Sissy Rasmussen. I am an Orem resident, and I have lived here for more than 20 years, and I want to start off by saying that I support this tax increase. I came to this meeting with some knowledge and this meeting has been incredibly instructive on both a logical and an emotional level. And I am usually more moved by logical arguments. So I really appreciated all the data and the facts about the budget and the needs that were presented by the employees. And then I was unexpectedly moved by our police chief and his very detailed description of the needs in this city and how this has been affecting his police force and by extension us, the residents. So I would say that I support this tax increase, number one, because it is incredibly small and we have not had a tax increase for many years, thanks to the many administrations that have worked hard to cut unnecessary costs and to find those grants, as was stated by a previous commenter. I really appreciate the work of those previous administrations. But the fact is, is that eventually you get to a point that those are no longer options. And I think we've reached that point. I think that we've reached that point to that. There are no more costs to be cut and maybe grants are a little harder to come by. In the meantime, inflation continues to be a concern. And as the police chief pointed out, the needs have increased and changed in both their quantity and in the depth of what they need. And then second, I think it's For me, it's really important to listen to those who have boots on the ground. And so to hear the police chief say that this is a very critical time, I take that very seriously. And additionally, I take seriously the city council's very careful deliberation over many years. Some of you have been here for a long time. to keep our taxes low so in summary i support this because i think that it is fiscally responsible and it is a last resort and i also support this because of the pleas of our of our actual police force i think that it's important in family city to support not just the families of the residents but also the families of our first responders and i think he made a clear case that this would help with that thank you very much

All right, thank you. All right, Bradley, did you say that Marion Baxter is next?

Yes, Marion, we will grant you permission for unmuting and turning on your camera, and your three minutes will begin when you begin speaking. Remember to state your name and whether you're an ORM resident. And if you do not wish to comment, simply state. And after Marion, we will hear from Troy.

Good evening.

I am Marion Baxter and I have lived in Orem for going on to over 45 years now. And I was very appreciative of the detailed presentation this evening. And I remember years where it was the destination location was officers and public safety members, the fire department, it was a destination to get to Orem as a workplace. And I really appreciate the quality of service that we have had and continue to have. I feel like this is a very viable way for us to be able to help stabilize the needs of our city and to me the request and the deliberation that has gone on this evening has been in informative for me as a citizen it's recorded so we can review it and get understanding from um mr nelson's presentation and the process that goes on here That is the thing that our taxes, I feel good about our taxes going forward, is the needs of this city, what can be accomplished. And I do certainly appreciate each member of this council serving in the capacity to represent each of us. Your questions have been thoughtful. They've been relevant. And I appreciate the opportunity that we've had a way to participate through technology and that we could also be there in person. I feel that this administration has continued a long tradition of inviting the citizens of Orem to participate. And I have felt that every department within the city of Orem has been very available and accessible to each of us. I personally feel that our taxes are very well managed. And I feel like on the community and local level, we can make a difference. And it matters that we are aware of how the budgetary needs are met and how they're reviewed. And I appreciate the opportunity to share that this evening. Thank you very much.

Thank you. All right. I think, Bradley, you said that there is a Troy who is next.

Yes, that's correct.

Again. All right. Welcome, Troy. Oh, you're on mute. You're on mute. All right.

Thanks.

Troy, you're good to begin speaking, but we can't hear you.

We can't hear you, so I don't know what... Good old technology here, sorry. Is that... Hang on just a minute. I'm looking over at our person who's over here doing the text, so you can just hang in there with us. It does show that you're muted right now.

We'll work with Troy on that, but Mayor, are you okay if we read in a couple of comments that came through the portal?

Yes. Okay, so hang tight with us, Troy. We're going to get this figured out.

So our city recorder, Teresa McKittrick, will read the comments that were submitted online through our portal that we set up for this event.

Okay, we had three that were submitted. Now I hope I say these names right. Lori Thoman, she said, a good portion of the traffic and people coming through Orem are headed to Provo because there is no reasonable I-15 access for most of Provo. Provo should share the cost since you cite more people and traffic as the purpose for the hike. I've been in my home over 31 years and near retirement. I can't afford costs continually going up. This one is from Brandon Wolf, and he writes, to whom it may concern, I'm against the increase in taxes for two new officers. Reasons? Everyone else has to manage our budget better in the current economic times. I'm aware it's a small amount, but still I've had to make lots of cuts to spending habits lately, and I don't see a city as being above having to make do. Second, with the increase of flock cameras and ALPRs, why are more police needed? Every department I've heard from, oh wait, sorry. Every department I've heard from other town meetings across the country sell these cameras as saving the agency funds and helping them fight crime. So if you want more cops and more public support, remove all ALPRs to save money that way. Until then, I'm against any increase in anyone's taxes. Thank you for your time. And then the third one, we got a submission. I will not be reading it because it is full of vulgarity.

All right, thank you. Thank you for those comments. And I did see that email, and yes. Anyway. Were we able to get Troy's? Okay. Okay. All right, so do you want to keep going here? All right. You're up. Welcome.

Thank you. I hope my technology works. I'm Chuck Bierce, and I am a resident of the city of Orem and have been for nearly 46 years, so I think I take the cake so far. I want to thank you for all of your time, for all of your effort. I want to thank all of these people for their time, their effort, and their professionalism. The presentations have been eye-opening. I have known for years that we need more public safety. However, I didn't know it was as bad as it really is. I think that's what Councilwoman Millett said as well. I fully support the Public Safety Special Revenue Fund. I don't want public safety competing for funds with everything else. I don't want them to get the leftovers. I want them to have their piece of cake, have all of it, and not have anybody else take a piece of it. This is Family City USA. It's been mentioned before. Let's keep the families safe. Families of everybody. It went to sleep. We're talking about such a minimal tax increase. It's a happy meal a year. I don't know anybody that can't afford to give up one happy meal a year to fund this. I would be happy if you doubled it, and I would still be happy after you did. I didn't really want to say anything personal, but I can't help myself at this point. In a previous life before my retirement, I worked in the public schools. I went through Mountain View High School as an administrator with a bomb threat. So happy to have good police officers there in minutes. And then we also had the fire department to help search. When I was an assistant principal at Canyon View Junior, we had a device placed. Police were there. Fire were there. They exploded it in the field. We need public safety, not just for schools, but for everybody else. When I worked in another city, there was a threat on my life as the principal of the school. I didn't know about it. But after everything was done, I noticed, as was mentioned, you can be encircled about. I was encircled about by police officers in uniform and plain clothes. I never felt safer. We need them in our community to encircle us about no matter what our circumstances are. I support it wholeheartedly. Thank you.

All right. I'll go ahead and continue here in person.

Welcome. Thank you. I'm Michelle Sorensen. I have been an Orem resident for 35 years. I want to thank just all of you for the time and service that you give to our city and including our staff too. When I learned about the increase, I took time to ask questions and Talked to some city council members and also I reached out to Chief Robinson and learned why this really deserves a lot of thoughtful consideration and why I think that this tax proposal increase is important. worth doing for our city. I learned that the LRB financial advisors to our city have been recommending for years that Orem diversify its revenue sources and dedicate a more stable revenue to the essential services like public safety. And while Orem's residential population may not be growing significantly like we have learned, the number of people coming into our city each day has. We've seen events at UVU, our Orem Fest, our Farmer's Market, and we love these events and we want to feel safe at these events. And that's an increased demand on our police department. I've also learned that the police department has been operating near the lower end of the recommended staffing over the last few years. And I think that there is wisdom in adding officers incrementally rather than waiting until we're severely understaffed and then having to hire five to seven officers at once. And we heard from... BJ that that would be a real strain on our, our force to to hire so many and have to train them all at once. So that approach is a better workload and training to maintain the standards that we expect from our department while not over staffing those already on the force. Finally, Orem has only raised property tax once since 1978, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a city should never raise taxes. Inflation affects the cost of providing everything a city delivers. And the important question is whether the increase is tied to a legitimate need, whether the amount is reasonable and whether the residents understand where their money is going. And I think that you have done a very good job explaining the need and answering the questions as to why this tax increase is needed. And so I am here to express support for this tax increase for our city. Thank you so much.

Thank you. All right, welcome. Good evening. I'm Sarah Bateman and I live near Orem Junior High School, have for 25 years this year. And I just wanted to thank all of you elected officials, all of your predecessors and all of the Orem City staff in that 25 years that I've been a resident. I feel that my family and I have received incredible value in this community. We've felt grounded. We've felt a great sense of welcoming. And I'm grateful for the value that my tax dollars have gotten me and my family. So thank you for that. I, my heart goes out to the chief, I didn't realize how burned out his team was. And that has inspired me to try to redouble my efforts at being a good neighbor in my community and try to invest in the social resilience of our community because this is a community worth investing in. So I'm grateful to be a part of the community. Thank you for your service, your dedication. And I think that there have been a lot of thoughtful questions and concerns brought up tonight by those who are opposed to this tax increase. And I do look forward to hearing the responses from the mayor and council on that and the staff on that. I think that that there are some valuable questions here. That said, I do support the tax increase. Thank you. All right.

Thank you. All right. That was three. So, Pete, are we technologically ready? We have two? All right. Let's go ahead and go. Bradley, you're up.

Right. We're going to give time to Brendan. You will be given permission to unmute and turn on your camera and remember to state your name and whether you're an Orem resident.

Welcome, Brendan.

Hey, how's it going?

I'm Brendan Beebe. I'm an Orem resident. I don't think the tax increase is large and it's like, why not? But at the same time, I don't think the city's really presented any data for the need. So I have seven questions I would like you guys to answer when you have the chance, but more so, what specific data supports the increase in demand for services, calls for service response times, or caseload from 2021 through 2025? As far as I could tell, it's been dropping consistently. Number two, state figures show Orem's sworn officers rising and reported offenses falling since 2022. How does the city reconcile that with the rising demand? A study was done in 2021 and it found patrol staffing insufficient and calls for service declining. What changed since 2021? Four, Orem has the highest officers per capita ratio among Utah County agencies. I noticed in the one data point you guys listed before, we were comparing ourselves to West Valley and St. George. But if we look at major Utah County cities, we have 35 more officers than Lehigh. with a comparable population. Five, civilian staffing fell from 38 to 17 between 2021 and 2024. Is that a real reduction or a dispatch attribution change or something else? And are sworn officers absorbing civilian work? Number six, what were the four officers funded by the 2009 increase? Were the four officers funded by the 2019 increase hired and retained? And what did the city get for it? And number seven, Why are dispatch, export, and headcount treated extraordinary? And on what date will they be produced? And that's all. Thanks, guys.

All right. Thank you. Would you mind repeating number three? I just want to make sure that I have it down. Thank you.

Yes. In 2021, there was an officer staffing study done by CityGate. The study found patrol staffing sufficient and calls for service were actually declining. I'm curious what changed since 2021, because as far as the research I can do, it's only gotten calls have gone down, caseloads gone down, response times have gone down.

All right. Thank you. Appreciate your comments and questions. All right. Bradley, who is online next?

Ruth, we will now give time to you. We will give you permission to unmute. Ruth, we will give you permission to unmute.

Here, she's declined. Yeah, we can move forward, Mayor. It doesn't look like Ruth is going to respond.

Okay. Did we ever get Troy back? We did not. Okay. All right. Thank you. All right. Yep. Welcome.

My name is Kathy Minster, and except for Councilman Kilpack, who was probably born in Orem, I moved as a newlywed here 54 years. I've been an adult for 54 years in Orem. I've seen council members and mayor, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I want you to know that if it was me, I would want the whole money to go to our first responders. They certainly were there for me when I came home from work and found that my husband wasn't still asleep. He had passed and they were wonderful. Every one of you ran on housing, making Orem more affordable, making it possible for our kids and our grandkids to afford a home. That was the promise. Let me walk you through what has happened since. Earlier this year, you raised impact fees on new construction. The cost goes directly to the price of every new home built in Orem. Builders don't need it, and it doesn't stop there. Every existing home in this city gets appraised and priced against those new comparables. When you push the price of new construction up, the whole market goes up. And that's not a theory. That's how comp works. And every realtor in this room knows that. Tonight you're about to vote to raise property taxes. That hits every homeowner in Orem. and it hits every renter too, because the landlord doesn't absorb the tax increase, they pass it on to the renter. So young families trying to save a down payment and paying rent, they're also gonna get the tax increase. If this passes, it will be the second hit on the residents in your first year, your first year. Let me be fair and say the honest version of your side. $12 a year is not what's keeping a young couple out of a house in Orem. I know that, and nobody is claiming that. But here's what does price people out. Not just $12 increase, but a city that gets a little more expensive every single year, in every direction, and never stops. That's... The pattern you've established in eight months. And so the second thing you're voting on tonight is what blocks the pattern. Move the property tax into a fund that permanently falls short of its own name. And you've given yourself a reason to come back for more taxes. Every year with public safety label attached that nobody can vote against. Small enough each time that complaining sounds petty. Oh, a happy meal. That's how you make it expensive. You campaigned on your promises. You haven't kept them all. I challenge you to give the money where it's needed and forget the property tax. Thank you.

Right. Welcome. Hi, my name is Elaine Wilding. I have lived in Orem for 22 years, and I can see that there's two issues here. I really appreciate what the chief said about the police department. They've got retention problems. They've got problems with the cost of overtime, both on the personal level, as well as what it's actually costing dollar wise. And they actually need up to 12 or 13 more police officers. So that needs to be addressed, but set separate from what I want to talk about, and that's how you govern. So I want to talk not about whether Orem should have enough police and fire protection. Of course they should. I want to talk about the idea of this property tax structure change. Why would you choose, almost right out of the gate, to change the property tax structure in a way that makes future tax increases easier and more automatic? So if you think about what that means, that means of all the issues residents brought to you during the campaign, you didn't go to the door saying, I'm in favor of just small little tax increases. The first major thing that this council is doing together is changing the way the property taxes actually work. That is not why you were elected. You were elected to represent us inside the budget. That means reading it, questioning it, sitting across from staff and saying, explain this, justify this, show me the data, show me what we can cut, show me why this is necessary. It means making the hard choices when the city wants more money and sometimes taking the heat for saying no. That work is difficult, it's slow, and it isn't popular, but that's governing. And that's why I'm concerned about this proposal. Taxpayers are not a honeypot. If you create a property tax structure that builds additional revenue into public safety year after year, you reduce the need to have the difficult conversation every year. Instead of asking, can we afford this? What are the alternatives and what should we prioritize? The answer becomes much easier. Raise the tax. And that's exactly the kind of government growth that deserves our scrutiny. Staff's job is to identify needs. I don't fault them for doing that. Your job is to weigh those against the residents, what they can afford and what you decide that needs to be fulfilled. To police officers or park upgrades. within a budget. So if you care for more, if the case for more revenue is strong, make the case. Show us why this amount is necessary and how it's going to actually make a difference. It sounds to me like it's barely going to dent but needs to take place. But it's coming from a structure that is not OK. So you have more than three years left in this term. Make this term where you did the hard work of governing, not the term where you made it easier for future councils to avoid it. So thank you. And I say vote no on this. There's too many things that need to be addressed here. Thank you.

All right, welcome. Thank you. My name is Karen Wignall. I've been in my house for, I think, close to 21 years now. It's the first home I own since my divorce, and I'm elderly now and facing fixed income, and any tax increase hurts me, first of all. My first question when you all started talking was, As I looked at what you were doing, you were taken from the general fund and putting it into this or public safety levy. And that my thought was, well, if you do that, then when are you going to ask for an increase in the general fund? That'll be next year. You'll want money for that. So. Like, everybody has said, it just goes on and on and on. A question I have is. Um, how are. How does what they produce financially for compute into what the officers because that was a big deal last year with Charlie Kurt and I think probably was not prepared for that adequately. Um. It was a tragedy, an absolute tragedy. And I want to say that I do appreciate the officers. It's been a long time since I've had to have somebody at my house, but I know that I've called in the middle of the night years ago when I thought somebody was in my backyard. So I do appreciate what they do. But what I would ask you to do is look at this differently so that you're not coming back for an increase. year after year after year and forcing the elderly out of their home. The other point that I wanted to make, I live in my home, I'm alone, and they said this is about $84 per resident. That's not true for me. This is twice that because I'm alone. So is there a more equitable way to increase it if you're going to increase it and i would ask you to put it back in the general fund and ask for an increase can you do it more equitably for every person that is in the city of Orem and i think that's it thank you all right thank you Oh, there is one more. I lived in California in the 1970s and 80s when property values rose there, and they came up with a proposition that put a limit to that. And I have wanted to do that here. I feel the same pressure that we felt there. It's outrageous. So anybody who wants to talk to me about that, I'd love to talk with you. Right. Thank you. All right.

Welcome. Thank you. My name is Evan Thacker. I'm an Orem resident for the past 13 years. So I'm a newbie here compared with these other commenters, mostly. I'm grateful that we have a society in which we can freely speak our minds and converse with each other, especially when there's disagreements about things. So this is very good. I think that the evidence that additional officers are needed is indisputable. I think the presentations given tonight make it very clear what the need is. And what you can't do is find some way to say no to the police chief and say, no, we can't give you any more officers. We clearly need them. And so you have to find a way to give to get them the money somehow. So the question on the table is, can we do it through a property tax increase? I have one concern about using property taxes for this, and that is that as many commenters have raised. It can be a painful increase that you have no control over when you have a high value property and no income. Right. Because we don't pay our property taxes by giving you a piece of the property. We have to pay our property taxes out of our paycheck. Right. And so I have. a paycheck that's big enough that I don't care about a $12 a year increase in property tax. It doesn't hurt at all. And in fact, I would be more than happy to give you 10 times that to fund the needs here. But there are people who, several who have mentioned, who are retired. They don't have increases in their income. If anything, their income is lower than it was years ago. but their home values are increasing and the increases and decreases of our property values are outside of our personal control. And so they get stuck in a case where they're on the hook for an amount of money that they can't come up with very easily. So I do think there's a problem with using property taxes because the burden falls inequitably on people because you can't you can't handle the tax if you have a high value property and low income. So it's a problem. And I had hoped to come here and hear some people raise specific suggestions for alternative ways of raising the money. But all I've heard so far is you've got to find the money some other way. Don't do it with a property tax. You've got to do something else. I hope that some people will have specific ideas of how else you could get it. I'll give you my idea. I don't know if it's viable or not. But Can you allow for raising some money voluntarily from the citizens of Orem? For example, if I'm on the hook for $12 a year, I'll give you $120 a year to cover my first 10 years or to cover... myself plus 9 other people who can't afford it and find some way to allow those of us who have the means to support the need to support it at a higher level. And the people who don't have the means to support it, let them off the hook. Maybe there's some ways to do that. Thank you.

All right, thank you. I think we've had 3. Pete, do we have or Bradley? Do we have any more?

We may have one comment that we need to read in.

Oh, okay.

This comes from Ruth. She didn't want to share a comment verbally, but she says, quote, I am opposed to raising the property tax. I think we need to look at the budget and reallocate the funding to where it actually needs to go. We don't need a park upgrade, unquote.

All right. Thank you. Thank you, Ruth, for your comment. All right, sir. Welcome.

Thank you. My name is Milo Ott. I live by Sleepy Ridge Golf Course. I appreciate the opportunity that we all have to discuss this particular issue, the courtesy that was given to us. And I sure would have appreciated that same courtesy when you approved the top golf right next to our houses. We'll discuss that at another time. I support our police and fire departments. I hope that if we need officers, that they're hired. Although I probably didn't feel that way two days ago when I got a speeding ticket for going 24 in a 20 mile an hour zone. So, maybe, maybe less police officers, maybe not just just kidding. So, I do not support raising taxes, property taxes to do it or proposed budget is 212M dollars approximately approximately. This is this increase is 450,000 dollars. That is 2 times of 1% of the whole budget. That is not a funding crisis. That is a priority choice. The city is already dedicating every dollar of existing property tax to a new public safety fund. Fire and EMS contract fees are going up about $600,000. Ambulance revenue is budgeted to rise more than $1 million. Public safety is not being starved. Look at the rest of the budget. Parks and recreation is over $13 million. This year's capital program includes more than $2 million in park amenities, playgrounds, sports courts, tennis courts, and a pump track at Community Park. Community development is over $8 million. The library is $4.5 million. You do not have to cut cops or firefighters to find $450,000. You can phase the park project. You can freeze a nonessential hire, delay one capital item for one year. Other cities have hired officers and firefighters without raising the property tax. Florida, Lakeland, Florida, added 13 police officers, 12 firefighters. They used the growth already in the existing tax base solid city adopted a 2.2Billion dollar budget with no property tax increase and still funded police and fire pay raises. They use stronger than expected revenue and existing fund balance. Not a new levy. The pattern is the same. Treat public safety as the first claim on money you already collect, not the excuse for a new tax. Once a rate goes up, it rarely comes down. Seniors and families on fixed incomes are already absorbing school district charges, changes, and other levies. Please do not add another one for positions that fit inside a 212 position. Million dollar budget vote no on the taxes, hire the officers on the budget. You already have that is fiscal discipline. Thank you.

All right, thank you. Welcome.

Hi, I'm Alicia Adams. I'm an arm resident. I'm in a unique situation because I'm also in law enforcement. I am not an. I've been in law enforcement for over 30 years. I totally support this. When it comes down to public safety, there is no cost for that. To be on the other side of the mic, my history has mostly been with dispatch. I have seen firsthand the calls that come in. These officers, Orem does not want to be a training ground for officers to become trained and then hired somewhere else laterally. If you want to be responsible with money, you keep those officers that you've trained as well as the firefighters and paramedics. My dad was an educator. When I bought my first home over 30 years ago, I did not have kids, but my dad said that I told him, you know, this Alpine school district tax was so high. Why am I paying for this? I don't even have kids. And he said, everyone should be invested in education. Well, I also believe everyone should have with public safety should not be negotiable. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Right. Welcome.

Thank you, Mayor and Council. My name is Zach Adams. I've been a resident of Orem for the last 40 years. And full disclosure, I've also been in law enforcement for the past 23 years. I 100% support this tax increase. I work for an agency that is almost 100% funded off a special taxing district for public safety. It is restricted funds that... makes the operation work for us. The other thing that I would encourage you to do is recognize this meeting every single year to keep your eye on inflationary issues. Orem will have to be competitive. I'm not talking about adding new officers. I'm talking about retaining the quality officers that you have right now. That's what I think everybody in this room would want. We want the best police officers keeping our families and our communities safe. And so I would encourage you to vote for this in favor of it. And then also, I would encourage you to come back every single year and keep your eye on the ball. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Pete, anybody else? All right. Welcome.

Hi, I'm Valerie Juarez. I've been living in Orem for 63 years. I hope I didn't outdo somebody and I'm not that old. OK, so I won't say my age, but there's there's a couple of issues. One is the it's like we talk about the police and the and I love the police and the fire department. Man, they're awesome. But we put that lump it in with the taxes, and there's two separate issues. The city's own budget for public safety is $45.3 million. Property taxes, you're dedicating to it, is about 19% of that. The biggest source of that fund isn't the property tax. It's $25.4 million transferred out of the general fund, which is 56%. That transfer isn't restricted. It isn't advertised. It requires no notice, no hearing. It sits entirely to the council's discretion every single year. The other part of that is the fund will never cover what the police and fire cost. It isn't built to. 19% today doesn't qualify or doesn't get better, which means every year from here forward, someone's going to stand here like I'm standing here and say truthfully that Public Safety Fund doesn't cover public safety and we need more. It's never... And it never has to ask for much. Nobody raises your taxes 50% in one night. You throw them out. You raise it 7% this year, and we get a couple of officers. And then next year, you add another 7%, because nobody's going to complain about raising it a little bit every year. And I think that gets to be unreasonable. At 20 years, it's a huge difference in tax bill. Now think about what it does to the next resident who shows up here with a hard question, not questioning the budget anymore. She's questioning the police. And you build a structure where the only way to ask whether the city is being managed well is to look like you're against the men and women who run into burning buildings. And I had a whole group of them several months ago, which wasn't fun. No one got hurt. Well, one person did, but I'm not against them. I want them to have their funding. I want them to have the number of people they need not be cut, but I don't want them being used as a shield for a tax mechanism. The structure protects 19% of their budget and leaves 56% floating. If a stable funding for these departments was really the goal, then it's not how you should build it. Fund them through real budget decisions, not in the open every year or out in the open every year on the merits. They've earned that. What they haven't earned is being somebody's talking point every August. Thank you.

Thank you. All right.

Welcome.

Thank you. Mayor, members of the council, I think you know my name is Dave Young. I live in Orem, and I served as your mayor for four years. I didn't have any intention of coming tonight. I haven't been to a meeting since I left office, but people have been asking me relentlessly what I think, and I'd rather say it to your faces than just say it out around town. To be clear, I'm not here about $12. That's ridiculous. $450,000 in a budget of $177 million is a rounding error. It's teeny. Any council that wants to fund two officers can find that money in an afternoon. I listen to the chief. I believe him. I consider him a good friend. 18,000 hours of forced overtime is a real problem. Federal grants running out is a real problem. Fund the officers. Fund them. My point is that a city with a $177 million budget did not need to restructure its property tax to do so. That's what I'm here about. This new special fund. You've already voted to create it. I'm asking you to reverse that vote. Here's why. During my four years, this city built one of the best fire departments in the state, made real improvements to our police department, and put more than $100 million in new city infrastructure. All but through the worst inflation this country has seen in 40 years without raising taxes once. There was no special fund. Nobody needed one. So when the city tells you it needs a dedicated fund to take care of the police and fire, respectfully, I don't believe that's true. And the people in this room who are here know it isn't true. It's not a theory. We proved it. In this building, with this budget, with the same staff sitting here tonight. What this fund actually does is hand the city a permanent reason to raise taxes with a label nobody's willing to vote against. That fund will never cover what police and fire costs. It isn't built to. So every year from now on, someone can stand right here where I'm standing and truthfully say the Public Safety Fund doesn't cover public safety. So we need more. That's not a budget. That's a one-way street. And we've all watched how that looks in other places. Ask how a school district raised taxes 8% a year for 20 years while the cost of living only went up two. Ask how a county passed a 47% tax increase without blinking. That doesn't come from one bad vote. That comes from a culture where raising taxes is the first answer instead of the last one. Orem has never been that city. That isn't luck. Every spring, this council meets and decides whether to raise taxes. This new fund takes that decision away. You start with 7% for two officers, then 7% the next year, then 7% again, and 20 years later, just like the school district, you wind up in a place you don't want to be. I don't think most of you set out to do this. It's easy... That's an easy thing to miss when the number in front of you is small, $12 a month. It's happened to me, but you can fix it tonight. Resend the new fund, put property tax back in the general fund where it has been since the beginning of Orem, and fund the police and fire the way the city always has by making them a priority out in the open. As I always said when I was here, just do the right thing for the right reason. Thank you.

Thank you. All right. Welcome.

Hi, my name's Hans Verkler. Um, I'm a resident here and, uh, like pretty much every other commenter before me, I'm want to make it clear. I'm not against getting the police more funding. Um, that, that was pretty eloquently put by the, by the chief. Um, But I am very against putting it into property taxes. And for the same, again, to echo a lot of the other people that have already talked, it's not the $12, it's the principal. If the police need more funding, pay them first out of the entire budget, and then let the other funds trickle down as they may. And if we need to go without some of the amenities that we currently enjoy, I'm fine with that, and I've talked to a lot of other people in my own neighborhood just north of Thessera, and they feel the same. If I'm not mistaken, it seems like most of the funding, or at least a lot of the funding, comes from sales tax just overall for the city. I think that the point hasn't been made that or I guess the point has been implied that there hasn't been any like increase in funding that can be used for law enforcement or firefighting and stuff. But if most of the funding or at least a large portion of it is coming from sales tax, that is directly going to increase with inflation, which we've all seen. So I, you know, I want to make that little point, um, that, you know, funding has been going up as, uh, as inflation has. And then I would say that, um, To keep property taxes down is not just helpful for the elderly in the community who are getting priced out of their own homes, but it's also very applicable to young homeowners. I got a bunch of friends who feel totally priced out because prices are high, interest is high, and then when property taxes add on to that, that just makes it worse. And so, again, it's not... don't give the police more funding. It's where does it come from that I think is the key issue. And if there's really no other place that funding can be squeezed out of that isn't life or death, which I feel like there is, but I haven't seen the sheets, so maybe there's not. But if there really wasn't, I would rather have an increase in sales tax, for example, because then at least it's there's some agency involved in that money leaving your pocket as opposed to property taxes, which they just get taken whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter your age or how long you've been there or anything like that. So, yeah, let's... See if we can get it from somewhere else. Hopefully we can, and I'd like to see the receipts on that. And if you can't, don't put in property taxes, maybe sales tax. At least then you'd have to show the receipts to everybody because everybody's directly paying sales tax. And so I think we keep it even more transparent. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. All right. Welcome. This is one of my former city council colleagues.

Yeah, I used to sit right there, and she sat right there for my first... Yeah, we had a good time. Yeah, she used to say, this is what's happening. Anyway, she helped me.

Can you state your name for the record?

Oh, I'm Hans Anderson, and I've been here 58 years. My dad brought me here when I was 10. I like policemen, too. When I first graduated from college, the first job I applied for was to be a policeman in a town in southern Utah County. And the mayor, he said, I'm not going to hire you. He said, you scored real high on the tests, but you're skinny. He said, we got problems around here. I'd make it now. I got plenty of weight. But I met the other guy I did buy, and he was twice my size. So that was good. The most exciting thing that happened to me when I was on the city council was the city wanted to raise taxes 48%, which was $3,345,000. And I decided to try and stop that. And it was a 6-1 vote to begin with, and then it stopped. They argued back and forth. There were so many mad people here, a lot more than what you've got here. But they saw the people that were there, and then the mayor said, well, how about if we just do half? And so they lowered it down to half, and still I said no. But anyway, with a whole lot of Orem residents signing a petition, we did away with it. And it was 3,345,000. And I added that up the other day when I was thinking of coming down here and saying something. You know, that's over $50 million. It's over $50 million that Orem citizens kept that Orem City didn't get. And you know what? The city's still here. In fact, we're doing great. Spent $37 million on a new city building. I was looking in the records, balance sheets and so forth for Orem City, and I was trying to find out how much was in the rainy day fund. And they said, well, Orem doesn't have a rainy day fund. This came up on the computer. And anyway, Fitch Ratings said that we had $33 million in our unrestricted general fund reserves. And S&P... said that we had this AAA reading because we had all this money in savings. And so what I would suggest you do is instead of adding more to your reserves, in fact, I even mentioned Brandon, that he had to give the state or transfer money out of one to another fund so that we were not above the reserve limit. But anyway, you've got the money. You've got a lot more than $450,000. S&P and Fitch say you've got over $33 million. I got up to $630,000 and I got back to May 31st. But anyway, you can make a whole lot of citizens happy that are here if you just don't have so much money in savings. You don't need that much. I love savings, too. I've got a big savings account, but I don't have to share with these people, but you do. You do.

All right. Thank you. All right. Pete, do we have anyone online? All right. This is the last call for anyone who would like to come and speak before I close the public hearing. All right. Well, I will go ahead then and close. close the public hearing and all right council, I was taking notes but There's six of us taking notes. I want to make sure that we start going through the questions that were asked. I marked some questions. If somebody would like to start, if someone else would like to start with questions that really stood out to you, and I'll mark them off here. I just want to make sure that we cover the questions that were asked.

Okay, council members start with a question that was brought up right off the bat and the property tax increase. So, when we get our property. Tax notice from the county and we see that how much of that is actually versus. County school district and other other pieces of that pie.

As far as the total for warm yes, as mentioned about 14%. The total of the average home's tax bill.

So when we get that tax notice, that money is not all going to Orem taxes, but 14% of that is for Orem? Correct. Thank you.

All right. Anybody else? I've got some questions that I'm going to ask. One of the themes that came out was the... the amount of money that is in other accounts and for other purposes. I was just wondering if we could go, I don't know if it was Bran or Brandon, talk about Talk about the different, the funding sources, how some of them, it's my understanding that some of them we can't, they're restricted. Others are not. And we do have, we do have ratings, so I want to know that. I want to know about the amount that we have in our cash reserves from what Mr. Anderson said. What in the budget process, talk to us about how we got to where this property tax increase was suggested. It sounds like it went through the budget, the department heads went through the budget and very carefully scrutinized. I know that I've looked at things in the budget, but anyway, I'm just gonna give you the opportunity to address some of those issues, those common themes.

I'll attempt to give an answer and of course I'll look to Brandon and some of our excellent staff to help fill in any blanks. But first of all, I also would be remiss, usually you hear me share compliments and appreciation recognition for our staff. I do absolutely have to confirm and state that Chief Robinson and our PD staff really are the best. We do expect them to be empathetic and customer service oriented while enforcing difficult, hard laws. And no one does it better than them. In terms of budgeting process, some of the principles we use are we want to take a multi-pronged approach to revenues and a multi-year approach. And so that we're not putting the burden of any increases on one particular year. or group of residents in that way we also want to show that we're doing our very best and and cutting wherever we can and always trying to find efficiencies but at the same time we want to ensure effectiveness as well and so in trying to balance efficiency and effectiveness that's optimization so so um Certainly, our public safety and our staff is committed to taking that kind of approach to budgeting. In terms of specific putts that have been considered, In particular, we've done specifically as it's related to public safety, we've looked at restructuring our police records group. So these are our civilian non-sworn police department records. employees. And we've also done some restructuring and dividing of labor as it relates to risk management or our staff that's focused on trying to prevent liability and accidents and that sort of thing. At the same time, probably one little clarification about property tax in Utah. It does not go up automatically with the value of your home. It actually – the revenue stays the same. So that means we get a natural cut every year because we lose purchasing power automatically. So the only way other than a tax increase for our property tax revenue to go up is with new growth. So if a new building comes in, then we would start to get property tax from that. But on existing buildings. Uh, property tax does not go up with the value of the house.

And then this is this is going to be kind of corollary to that. We had a gentleman talk about how the value of the property continues to rise. And so that's where the property tax, could you address that, how the increase in property value does not, how the whole thing works? Because my property taxes have gone up tons since I bought my home in 1991. And so it's an issue that it frustrates me how it's calculated and all that stuff. But anyway, if you can explain that.

So any taxing entity has to request and approve a tax increase in order for the tax revenue to go up. So other taxing entities have done increases over the years as it relates to property tax. if i'm summarizing how it happens uh the county looks at all of the tax assessed value of all the properties in in the county and they look at what is a new or expanded building and that they begin to tax that but anything that was an existing property and that value goes up then the tax rate, the mill rate, comes down the same degree that the tax value of existing properties went up. So Brandon could show you, and you may recall from one of the presentations of Laura Lewis with LRB, they showed that over time our tax rate has gone down for Orem specifically. but we've uh but our revenue has stayed the same because of that offset between tax value and tax rate okay so like we've talked about we're not solving for the equals on the right side of the equal sign that's determined by the counties this is how much money this is the value and

So you back into that with the tax rate, and then tax rate goes down because we keep that revenue the same unless we go ahead and do what we're doing tonight, at least considering tonight in having this type of truth in taxation hearing.

Correct. Brandon, is there any other way you would explain or summarize that? No, that's pretty much it. I would also say that we as cities and local government agencies, we are limited in what taxes and revenues we can increase or charge. So I would love to be able to look at and consider or propose, for example, a sales tax increase instead of a property tax increase. because then all of the people who come from outside of the city and shop here, then they would be helping to pay for our services. But the state doesn't allow for that method of tax increase for us. The only method of tax increase that is left for us cities is a property tax increase possibility. Thank you.

I've got more questions, but I want to ask council, do you have any questions that you want to? Oh, you've got.

So I just wanted to mention, so as Bren said, the maximum allowable state sales tax that the state allows us, we charge that. So we don't have the ability to raise that. Franchise tax, all of our franchise taxes, state maximum. We don't have an ability to raise those. Those are set. So that and property tax being the third tax that we have some ability to do something about and that is part of the reason why we're here. Part of the other reason is our sales taxes which we've lived off of indefinitely for plus 40 plus years have now continued. In 2023 it was a 0.3% increase. In 2024 it was a negative 1% increase. Those are not giving us any additional dollars to work with, as mentioned, in an inflationary environment. So for those people who think, oh, well, the city is receiving the benefit of that inflation, we are not. it's lower than the inflationary amount. How we have done it in the past is we have been, if you will, the king of sales tax. And so we've lived off of that sales tax. That is no longer the case. And I just wanted to make that clear. Thank you.

And while I've got you here, what is our fund balance? Tell me about what was referred to as the rainy day fund.

So as mentioned, that is the fund balance is approximately $30 million. Now the state and the standard rate setters, when we calculate fund balance, they do not take into account what we refer to as assigned fund balance. which is items that we already have open purchase orders for but have not completed yet. So we're intending to buy it but we haven't actually been able to fund it yet because we haven't either received the product or the service or whatever it may be. We also have many capital projects that same process. We've identified where we're gonna spend those funds, but we have yet to either start the project or spend all of that money on that project. Those do not get accounted for as part of that 30 million and reaching our ceiling that the state has set. So if you wanna count what we actually have available to us, it's more in the $14 million neighborhood. We can all, and that's around 20%. So we can all argue that the floor that the state allows is 5%. So we have a 15, and it fluctuates. So we have a 10 to 15% room that we have to operate within a, we'll call it a rainy day fund, even though it's not officially called that. So we can all argue about, well, what is the proper amount for that money? And where should it be? Well, I can tell you when the, and I hate to bring up the 2008 recession, but we got to 6%. If the economy hadn't turned around when it did, we would have not had, we would have fell below that ceiling. That is why the state raised the, at that time, the maximum was 18%. That is why they raised it three times since that point so that cities had the capability to withstand such an event. God forbid, we have a natural disaster. Everybody thinks a FEMA is going to come save the day or the state's going to come save the day. Well, they may come help, but guess what you need immediately? You need funds available immediately to be able to handle that. You'll get reimbursed at some point, if not all of that, most of it. But again, we can all argue about what is the proper amount that needs to be there for that.

Okay, thank you. I neglected to do this after the closing of the public hearing. I want to thank all of you for coming. What I'm hearing tonight is that there's no argument about the destination, about having a strong public safety program here in departments and here in the city. It's how do we get there? And I hope that's a a very short synopsis of what I see. So I hope you gentlemen and your teams feel that the support of the community for the service that you do. It seems the discussion has been centering on a couple of different things. One is the fund, the idea of a public safety fund What that would look like, what would that look like going forward? Is it something that's going to be, are we going to be doing these every year? Is this something, why is it that it's, why are we doing a separate fund? And so the one vehicle of that, and then also about the actual dollar amount. What is the $450,000? Does it make sense to increase property taxes? Have we as a council and staff done our homework to look at and examine other other ways to fund this without going forward with a proposal for a property tax increase. So I see those as different issues. So council, as we discuss that, I would like to talk about those. I also have some other questions that individuals had here. We had Mr. Beebe. He had a lot of questions, Chief, about what the data supports, the service response times, just the different studies that have happened. I don't know if you want to address any of the highest number of officers per capita in Utah County and what's happened with the four, when we hired the four officers. So if you want to take a minute and address some of the questions that Mr. Beebe asked, I'd appreciate it.

You may have to repeat a few of those. I'll go with the ones I can remember.

And, Council, you're going to have to help me here, too, because I want to make sure. What does the data support? That was my first one. Is that what you had about the response times and the service calls?

So about our 10-year average of calls per year is right around 60,000. Last year, it was 54, just under 55,000. The year before that, it was $65,000. The year before that, $55,000. And so why do they fluctuate? I don't know. I don't have a metric to show you why we have certain calls certain times a day. I don't have an answer for you as to why. Our average is right around, over the last five years, right around where we're at last year in 2025 was 55,000. In 20, look around 2017, 2019, we were up around 76,000. Back then we created a case number for everything we did. And we had officers do a little sentence and a case number for everything we did. We stopped doing that, took too much time. And so trimming our operations as to why we were doing that and how we were doing that. So we started creating what, like every time a call comes into dispatch, creates a CAD number. Every CAD number doesn't always get a case number. So there were some years in there where it's hard to go back and then mine that data back out to figure out, okay, how many are we actually responding to? So I would say our calls are The same in the sense of, uh, that they, they have. I mean, our, we were 55,000 this year or 2025, 2024 was 65,000 and the year before that they were back down to where we were. So. It varies. So it varies. Where are they going to be next year? I don't know.

No, no. So I think that goes, as I was doing my research and I visited with you, it sounds like that while the number of calls has remained, I want to say steady, just kind of there or down. But it's, what other types of work has your department done? I'm thinking like the outreach. We have the mental health unit now. We have the expectation of the school resource officers. What is it that's maybe the data doesn't, I don't, data, I should ask Council Member Meekin because he's an academic guy. Does data, what does it, plural, singular, what is it? Data is plural. This is so... It doesn't always show everything, but tell us about some of the other things you're doing. The data might not show.

I'll answer the one question he asked. The 2019 officers were four of them. Four of those went to patrol to beef up minimum staffing for swing shift. That's our most busy shift of the day. So we put those bodies in that spot. The federal grants that we received for seven officers had to be dedicated for community-oriented policing, mental health. And so we had the mental health team was designed to... try and follow up with our mental health consumers to try to reduce the times that officers would have to go back out and respond to the same individual. So that team would, you know, a mental health call would come in, patrol would deal with it. The next day, Cameron and her team, well, I'm trying to think at that time it was probably Jameson, would follow up with that individual, try to get them in touch with resources. Sometimes it's a phone call checking on them. Because of the turnover, we haven't had them, we've had to pull those two officers back and put them on the road. So now we have our civilian employee following up on that. And then when She needs to go and make an actual visit. She has to pull an officer off the road that's responding to call for services in order to make sure that she's safe as she's doing the follow-up on that. We've also employed interns from the universities to help with that. That's been extremely successful to help as they rotate through and able to do the work from a civilian standpoint. We will continue to leverage that to aid us. The other one was our community oriented policing. Chief Adams, when he was here, that was a extremely important and very strong focus of our department. We began, you know, we don't have DARE officers anymore in the elementary schools. And so he created a reading program. uh where we would go in and read to first and second graders and um you know been a long time since i've read a dr seuss book and so those activities were taken care of by those officers and those teams and then as we could we could have officers come in off the road to to do that as staffing and turnover has been we currently do not have those officers on a cop we have one sergeant who was orchestrating all the events earlier this year and in my conversations with Bren was, we have planned events that we have not announced, we are canceling them. And so we've had events that we have canceled this year or not announced that we had planned because we just do not have the staffing to continue to pull from the patrol Pull from detectives to be at these events. We kept the big ones, our autism picnic, our national night out, those type of things. But as you remember, we were going to have a Citizens Academy that some of you are going to attend. We canceled that. We were going to do that in September. We're not able to. It's just a manpower issue. And so that's where those officers went, and that explains some of those. Was there any other ones?

No, that was, as I say, Council with Citizens Academy Council. I'm looking for a glass half full. You've been spared from getting taste.

That's voluntary.

Let's volunteer. And having volunteered to be tased in the past, I don't recommend it, but I don't regret doing it because it deterred me from a life of crime. So counsel, I've talked a whole lot. What questions do you have as you listen to our residents speak this evening? Is there anything that you would like to follow up with staff or anything that you'd like to share?

Council member, well, I do think because we got some comments on it that it is worth talking a little bit more about why a special revenue fund makes sense for public safety. I had questions about this early in the process as well. And I approached our fire chief and our police chief to try to understand if this made sense for them and why it might make sense for them. And they both told me that this was important to them to guarantee more fiscal stability for their programs. But I'm wondering if either of you have any additional comments as to why it makes sense from your perspective to have that special revenue public safety fund.

I'll go first. We at least know what the baseline is as to what our budget. Like Brandon says, we are always going to be dependent on sales tax, and it is volatile. And so at least you as citizens know that 100% of your sales tax is going towards essential services. as did I say that wrong property tax my my bad 100 of your property tax is going to Public Safety um which will always have to be supplemented because it's not enough and so what we're paying in property taxes is not enough to provide the essential services of the city

Could I, go ahead, Chief.

Well, for everybody that knows me in this room, I've never sat quiet for two hours and 34 minutes in the history of my career. So thank you for providing me the opportunity just to recognize that the biggest point I want to make is that I want to assure the residents that with this fund, it definitely identifies the public safety revenue, the money we spend, but I want to assure everyone that when the time comes that there's a need for reduction in all of our budgets to meet the judiciary responsibility, public safety is going to do our job to look at where we can cut expenses to make our needs while trying to provide the highest level of service possible. So that's the value I see in it. So thank you for allowing me to speak.

All right. Did you have Councilmember Lambs and then Councilmember Gale?

Just to reiterate the fact that those instances, and we've been very blessed with, as you said, we're the king of sales tax. I think that was your line. But we've been seeing that decrease. And The concern in my mind is if we run into a situation where the bottom drops out of the economy and we haven't done something to protect that baseline of public safety, that's concerning. So just to reemphasize the point that you've very well made.

All right. Council Member Gale. And then did you say that? Okay.

We're doing questions now, yes? Yes, those questions, yeah. I appreciate all the comments that have been made today. I think you raised very good, thoughtful questions that deserve to be answered. I think Mr. Beebe had seven questions. I thought that was great. He outlined them all. I think a lot of your comments earlier today probably speak to that, so he can go back and watch that section. That will help. But I saw two themes sort of emerge. And so I think if we could have staff help answer these two questions, that would be helpful for our residents. The first question is, can you find money elsewhere? Have you looked at what you can cut? And I think Mayor Young pointed out beautifully that after economizing and getting grants, they haven't had to raise taxes in four to five years, however long it's been. What is left to cut? Have you looked at that? Can you walk us through that process? What does that look like? That's my first question.

I think it might be good to have our deputy city manager, Carrie, explain some additional cuts and restructuring. I would say we have maintained cuts of the past, for one. And then in terms of... funding alternatives, I just quickly listed out over half a dozen grants that we have gone after. And some of these we have applied for them and haven't heard back yet if we'd be awarded with them. So we applied for a federal grant for $1.1 million for breathing apparatuses for firefighters, another $1.3 million for additional firefighters. We did apply for a COPS grant, but as Chief said, we did not get awarded that. We even applied for a $10,000 grant to Firehouse Subs to help us equip our firefighters. um we did receive a federal grant for one million dollars for our sewer treatment plant um we uh we received a verbal commitment from the county for 1.5 million dollars for regional trail safety improvements and we are in discussions with the county for uh to capture more dollars uh more transient room tax or hotel and restaurant taxes uh to go towards some parks and recreation type uses. So there are currently probably more grant and or state and federal funds for parks, open space, trails, water right now than there is for public safety other than the ones that I listed off there. Terry.

Thank you, Mayor, Council. I just wanted to mention that and give a shout out to Mayor Young. I appreciated his comments tonight. When he first became mayor, one of the first meetings that I attended, he asked us if there was any way to prove that we were being fiscally responsible. And so we came up with the idea to partner with MGT to do an efficiency study, the first of its kind in the state of Utah, where they dove into everything outside of sworn officers and sworn firefighters. Every department in the city was looked at seriously for staffing and for other ways that we could save more money. And once we got the study back, we implemented every single one of their suggestions. and one of the things that the study came out was that we were very lean compared to our sister cities and so that was really good to see but in addition to that every time we have a vacancy as you know personnel is one of our largest costs here in the city but anytime we have a vacancy in the city we look at that position every single time to see if there is a different way that we can use those funding sources to help provide better services to the community or to save money. So as an example, City Manager Bren Bybee mentioned risk management. Recently, our risk manager resigned And instead of just hiring another risk manager, we decided to try a committee of people that already have other workloads here in the city. And we use a committee to be the risk managers instead of having that position. So there's lots of ways that we're trying to be as fiscally responsible to the residents as we can. But we have done those efficiencies every time and so that we can prove to everybody that we are as lean as we can be.

Thank you.

I would just add that I made the comment of, you know, Orem Police Department does more or less. That's not unique to just the police department. That's to every one of these departments in the city and what makes Orem the place where you want to live, work and play. And so that's not unique to just me and my department or Mark and his department. That's every one of these people.

that work for the city share in that same culture and i can attest to that i feel like we need to start making a tally mark every time i hear somebody one of our staff say we do more with less than or i mean i really believe they do they don't just you know like raise taxes is never the option that they go with not ever so um i i i guess my point is that i don't think this is something we take lightly i think you've done your homework and you're you've cut everywhere you can cut and i and i appreciate that um my next question i think the surface tonight was Can we fund this from something other than property taxes? That came up several times. Can we fund it with sales tax? Can we fund it with I don't know what? But what would you say to that question?

So many of the items mentioned go against our budgeting principles of using one-time surplus dollars to fund an ongoing expense. What does that lead to? not good things, maybe a $40 trillion debt, for instance. So we try to avoid that if at all possible. Some people say, well, I don't need a playground. Other people do need a playground. They do want a playground. Some people don't want a library, or as robust a library, they say. And some people do. So we struggle with all of those things and determine where do those funds need to go? Where can we identify funds? that match what it is we're trying to do, what we're trying to accomplish. I mentioned sales tax. Funding just public safety in general from raises and benefits and retirement is a task every year. And so if sales taxes aren't enough to cover that, and that doesn't count the rest of the city, by the way, where do those funds come from if sales tax isn't covering it? It's not, you know, we don't have, like I mentioned, an exorbitant number of different revenue paths to be able to take. So that's the item I would say in response to that.

All right. Any other questions? Council Member Milstein.

Brandon, one of the commenters said something about creating The the public safety fund created a false shortfall. Do you have any comments on that?

So the budgeting that will go on. Is no different whether they're separate or together. They'll both be considered together in our evaluation of what things we do and don't do and the amount that needs to be transferred to that public safety fund will be determined at the very end. Once we've gone through all the motions of determining what is needed and what is not. So there's no determination up front that this is what public safety asked for, they get it all, we fund that and then we have to try to backfill in the general fund what we need and or the opposite, we fund the general fund and we leave the public safety fund short and so of course we have to go out and ask for a property tax increase because they're short. That isn't how it works and that's not how it will work. Going forward, it really has no change other than to specifically identify what revenues public safety produces and or what their bottom line looks like easily. It's much more easily seen than buried, if you will, within the general fund.

All right, thank you. Before I go, I just wanna just say, council, I don't think we're going to end this meeting in the next 17 minutes. So what I was just going to just give everyone a heads up that at nine o'clock, let's take like between a five and a 10 minute bio break. So let's go till nine o'clock and then we'll take a little break and then we'll, what do you council, you want five minutes, 10 minutes? 5, okay, so, like, a 5 minute break and then I know 5 will reconvene. So go ahead council member mail it. Thank you.

Yeah. So just remembering some of our presentations we've had in the past regarding this, these trends for our sales tax revenues in my mind. For some reason, I'm thinking we've had this 4%. We had a bump after COVID. Surprisingly, right? Everyone was like pleasantly pleased. We were all shopping online, I guess. Buying more than we should because we were home with Amazon in front of us. But so then we, it seemed like we leveled off at 4%. Am I remembering that? Help me understand 20.

So 2021, fiscal 2021, it was an 18% increase. Fiscal 2022 was a 13.5% increase. And then from that was the years I mentioned where we had a 0.3% increase. 2024, we actually had a decrease. 2025 was a 3.1% increase. And then this last year was 2.3%. 2.3%.

Okay. What do you budget? What increase do you budget?

Do you project? Yes, I'm having to guess because I don't have all the information for the full fiscal year until here in August, to be honest. So when I'm budgeting in March, I have many months that I have to make a guess for. And so for the remainder of 2026, at the time we budgeted, I guessed at 3% with a 3% increase for 2027. Okay. So as I mentioned, we came in at 2.3.

Those are final now?

Those are final. Okay. So in order to hit our 2027 sales tax revenue numbers, it now have to get to 4%, not the 3% that I originally made an estimate for.

And I mean, we had some theories on those down years that people, there weren't cars. I mean, we have a huge part of, because we have these wonderful car dealerships, right? That's a big chunk when a car is sold. So do you, for those few couple of years that we had the deficits, 23, 24, still coming out of COVID, no inventory, you know, right now they have tons of inventory and they're low in prices, I've heard, because I want to buy a car, I'm waiting to see. But what do you just kind of, where do you think we are now? What are you, you know, back then you said, well, it's probably the cars, right? And construction. Okay. And construction. Gov. Okay.

Yeah. So, you know, the RC Willys, the lumber yards, the Home Depots, et cetera, building materials have sloughed off dramatically since during those time. They've recovered a little as well. You know, cars have kind of fluctuated between used cars, new cars, just depending on how that market happens to be at the time. But they both are nowhere near the pre-pandemic level. more dollars have been going towards, as they've talked about, inflation, for instance, basics. So we haven't seen that decline in our general merchandise category area. However, maybe arts, crafts, hobbies, you know, unique area, that area has also fallen off as well. So those are the main areas that have been clothing areas.

When you do your projections for ORM specific, do you look at, for example, I'm just looking up and down State Street. We're having some exciting things happening here. I'm seeing some remodels, some rebuilds, raising canes. We've got this bank over here. We've got Apollo Burgers, a complete rebuild. The Home Depot at University Place. We went to the ribbon cutting yesterday for the home-built store. Okay. Do you get with our economic director? Do you talk about these new things that are coming? Or do you just use other metrics, like financial metrics?

So I'm made well aware of those in our exec staff meetings. Gary outlines a lot of those. So I'm aware of, if you will, the material ones that might have some kind of an impact. I mean, keeping in mind we have a sales tax base of $33 million. Trader Joe's is great, but it doesn't make a blip in that number.

Well, I am trying to get the in and out by the home bill. In and out would probably be... I'm still playing that song.

So I don't want to downplay it. They're all important, every one of them. But it takes all of them to keep sales tax going forward. And so, yes, I am aware of those, and I try to take that into account as I'm making – based on – and we get an economic report from a company that tracks various entities' sales taxes. And so I also am looking at those entities and how are they doing as the year goes along, because sometimes that's beneficial to us, and other times it's an indicator. You know, when Saratoga Springs is going crazy from a percentage standpoint, I can't really take that into account because that's significantly different and it's far enough away, but it does impact the worm to some degree if they're growing that... and they get certain businesses out there, that means they may not be coming here any longer, right? So that does go into that thought. So there are some elements that go into that. And certainly as Garrett and I get more acquainted with each other, I hope that we can both develop that in maybe a slightly more clear picture.

Yeah, because that would be exciting, right? Because I know you're pretty good at your projections. People call them guesses, but I think you're pretty skilled at that. So that would be pretty exciting if we can get that economic development director predictions along with your financial predictions and use that for our budgeting moving forward. For sure. I can see that being a definite plus, but okay. Thank you. Thanks, Brandon.

Thank you. Council, as you look and recall, is there anything else that you would like to ask that was on behalf of what we heard from the residents? All right. Thank you, Council Member Lamson.

There was a question brought up. We've heard a lot about UVU, Utah Valley University, and the impact that people come in there to go to school and work. I don't know how large their employment force is or how that affects things. But I'm wondering if you could address that, how that campus with people coming and going, some stay here, some go to other places, how that affects what we're looking at.

So they do have their own police department. So any crime or anything like that that occurs on campus, UVU Police Department will take and investigate and respond to that. We respond to back them up on higher priority incidents. Obviously the September 10th, 2025 incident, we were heavily involved in that. And that is a mutual aid. The four days that our officers were there, that was us being paid for by us. Now, when they have special events that are planned or in the weeks and months following that where they paid for our officers over time, and that's why that number was as high as it was last year, was on top of that. They also paid for officers around the state to pay. It wasn't just Orem officers that were there to help support that, but it was, you know, UHP, Provo, everybody. And so that was a significant need. And Orem PD shouldered, I would say, our share and then some. As far as helping out, why? Because they're in our city. We have a large university that is on our city, and we are going to help. Traffic is heavy in there, obviously, and around campus. I would also say that the question wasn't asked, but as Vineyard grows, how do people get to Vineyard through our city? who commits, you know, everybody can commit a crime no matter where. But as populations grow around us and increase, our needs and our ability to serve are impacted by those needs or by those increases. So that's how I'd answer that question. Did that answer enough questions?

Yes, thank you. I was just curious what that – and thank you for responding to that because, yeah, I think that that influx of people coming and going, it's increased traffic, it's increased people interacting with each other, which most of the time is great, but sometimes not so great, and opportunities for kerfuffles here and there. Yeah.

All right, Council, Council Member Kilpack.

Just to follow up on that UVU, is there anything coming in from the university for their requirement to be in our city and any revenue coming into the city for what they do or impact us through all of those, either fire, police, any of those?

Brent? I mean, Chief Sanderson can speak to if we've got any sort of contractual relationship with UVU as it relates to fire. And Chief Robinson spoke to if there are events, they'll pay us for that type of thing. We get no tax revenue that goes through UVU and then is directed to Orem City. Yeah. Now, that being said, they do have a lot of employees. And I would say, you know, a lot of higher paying jobs work at UVU. And so now from our salaries, income tax is charged. cities don't get income tax directly. But of course, if we bring in more jobs into the city, then those people spend their dollars. And then we would get help through sales tax in that scenario. Yeah. Chief Sanderson, anything in terms of contractual revenue relationship?

I was just going to add that we want to be a really good partner. And so we staff all their events, different like the police department. They don't have their own fire department. So increase in population is an increase of call volume that we take care of, which puts a burden on our services. However, in that good partnership, we... We just cover our employee wages and compensation. It doesn't cost us anything to provide that level of service, but it doesn't really make us any additional money.

I think some of the citizens who had those comments or questions about the impact of UVU, they were wondering if there's a revenue source that comes into the city. And I just wanted to make sure that we all, as a community, understand that role of what the UVU does. It's not impacting us financially positively, but yet it's a good community blessing to be in our area because of sales taxes and things people come into the city for.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, as Brent mentioned, The sales tax component, they still have to charge sales tax at their cafeteria. So, I mean, if you want to indicate that. And the surrounding restaurants, right? And certainly they probably, since many of them do live here, you know, they go up to the mall and spend their money there. But it's primarily sales tax based.

All right, anything else for right now? Or should we take our five-minute break right now? Take our five-minute break and counsel when we come back. It's time to work toward making a decision and taking a vote. I know we're working on that now, but we're going to have to, I think, redouble our efforts now and just figure out what we want to do.

We will meet back here, let's say, between 9 and 5 after.

And so we'll see you in a few minutes. All right, my friends, it's time. Let's go ahead and continue and enter into the next part of the meeting, which this is in my world is we've asked questions. It's time now. for, I think, for the City Council to embark in its discussion about what we have heard this evening, the research we have done. I know we've spent a lot of time on this and asked a lot of questions, met with staff. And so, who would like to lead out? Oh, Councilmember Meekin would like to lead out the discussion.

Well, I'm open to anyone leading, but I guess I just had a couple of quick reflections. First is, this is the best conversation we've had all year. I just think this has been enormously rich. I think the questions have been great. I think the level of involvement from a wide variety of people has been great. I think everybody's tried to be civil and generous with each other. It's really important to me. It's important to me that we have great processes, transparent processes with lots of public participation. So I always want to say, thank you to everybody who's made that conversation rich and meaningful. And I've learned a lot in the process. This is my 1st year on city council as a result. I've learned a lot this year about city finances. um and um a lot of that has been really good news uh i think we've done a really great job of being fiscally responsible for a long time and i'm grateful for that i'm also concerned the more i've learned that i'm concerned that we do have some existing vulnerabilities and that that dependence on The highly fluctuating sales tax is still a concern for me. Mayor, I'll just share a few things that are important to me as I think about this decision and share that with the council as well as those in the room. Having a lean budget, low taxes, making tough choices, looking at every option, looking for cuts, looking for grants, looking for efficiencies, that's really important to me. I want people who live in Orem to bear one of the lowest tax burdens anywhere in the county and the state. I'm really proud that we do that. It's a result of a lot of decisions over a long period of time. It's also a result of the fact that we do have good sales tax revenues, which also come from development decisions that have been made in the past. So, with respect to our comparable cities, I'm really proud of the fact that we are the lowest or 1 of the lowest, depending on what metric we're looking at at any given time. I worry a lot about inflation. So, as was mentioned tonight. Our tax rate keeps going down and inflation keeps going up, particularly the last couple of years. We just had enormous inflation in terms of fuel and a lot of the things associated with our public safety. I've had the chance now to listen to two or three different presentations from our financial advisors as a city, and they continue to tell us that We have some vulnerabilities if we don't consider at least trying to match inflation with the revenues that we're bringing in. I care a lot about value per tax dollar. So I care about having low taxes, but I also really care that our taxes buy us really good things. They buy us great public safety, the best officers we can get, fire and police. I want us to have a great library. I want us to have great parks. I really am proud of what Orem does in terms of value per dollar. And I think as 1 of our speakers earlier said. My family has just benefited enormously from. Spending very, very little living here and having really quite remarkable services to show for it. As I mentioned, I did have some questions about the structure of this and the creation of that special revenue fund. I do trust our police and fire departments. They've earned that trust and I just think that they are very thoughtful about how they spend their money and I want to create that fund in order to show support for their needs and to provide them with some guaranteed funding over time. I'm also really concerned about our most vulnerable residents. So this came up a couple of times. We haven't talked too much about it. But we do have people on fixed incomes. We do have people for whom even a small property tax like the one that's being proposed could have disproportionate impact. And so personally it's just really important to me that those who find themselves in that situation have avenues in order to receive support and a break from that and I know that Utah County and the state of Utah have a number of programs that offer property tax relief or abatement that we've been able to post on our website as well. One of them is the Circuit Breaker Program. There's also property tax deferral. There's quite a range of things that those who are particularly vulnerable can apply for that would either eliminate the impact of this tax or significantly reduce it. I just want to make sure that we do everything we can to be sensitive to those who are disproportionately impacted by any any tax increase, whether it be this property tax increase or a rate increase, that's important to me. So those are some of the things that I've been thinking about as I've tried to figure out how to vote and I just want to express that I've learned so much from the thoughtful and articulate Questions and concerns have been raised. This is this is a policy decision on which I think reasonable people can disagree. And I've heard a lot of reasonable people tonight with different opinions. And so thank you for sharing those.

Thank you. Anyone else want to say anything? Council Member Gale?

I just want to echo everything Quinn said. In fact, he said it better than I ever could. But I do want to point out this. You can't see it from where you're sitting, but this chart is on our website here. And it shows Orem's taxes compared to 18 other cities in Utah. Many of them are similar sized and then our sister cities surrounding us. And of the 18 cities, Orem is the lowest taxing entity and that is including this property tax increase. So Orem still remains the lowest at that level. And I think the city has a long history of fiscal responsibility. I think Mayor Young emphasized that. I know Mayor McCandless emphasizes that and I see it in our staff every single day. That said, I want to comment on this tax increase. I think funding public safety appropriately is one of local government's most fundamental responsibilities, and it's crucial to keeping Orem Family City USA that we all so value. And this really, to me, is not a question of whether we could find $450,000 somewhere in the budget. We could. As Mayor Young said, this is a rounding error. It's very small. But the question to me is whether it's fiscally responsible to fund permanent public safety obligations with temporary savings, volatile revenues, or one-time capital dollars. And I don't believe it is. I think it's our responsibility not just to balance this year's budget, but to leave Orem financially prepared for the next recession, as well as the next period of growth. I've thought a lot about this and I imagine a scenario maybe 10 years down the road, say we have another great recession. And when that happens, people are going to look back and say, how did this happen? How did we get into this situation? And they would look at us and they would point to our dependence on sales tax and ask why, when we had the opportunity, we didn't put our most fundamental responsibilities on a more stable financial foundation. So for me, fiscal responsibility isn't simply keeping taxes as low as possible, although I think that's important. I think it means making difficult decisions now so future councils and future residents aren't left paying the price for our unwillingness to act. And in that light, I would believe it would be fiscally irresponsible not to make this adjustment now.

Great. Thank you. Anyone else want to say anything at this point? All right, Councilmember Milstein, thank you.

I take my job as being a part of representative government very seriously, and my job here is to represent the people of Orem, and that coin has two sides to it, in my opinion. The one side is that I need to listen to the people of Orem, and when they have ideas, concerns, suggestions, or other feedback, I need to take that in and I need to do something with that. And the other side of that coin is that the people need to trust me to be able to do my job. You need to trust me that I'm attending all of my meetings, I'm doing all of the research, I'm speaking to all the people, and I'm taking in all of that information and I'm making the best informed decision that I can with the information that I've been given. Part of my conundrum in this process right now is the process. We have had this on the docket since May. This is something we've been looking at and gathering feedback for months. And I feel like I've gotten a flood of information at the 11th hour and 59 minutes with a ton of emails today and yesterday, all of these public comments raising questions that I wish I had heard a month ago, a week ago. when I had more time to really fully address that so that we could provide that information to our public of why this is needed and why this way. if we have this many people tonight who are against this property tax increase and by my calculations there were 17 who spoke tonight against and seven who spoke for it might have been 16 and seven um one of them we didn't actually read their comment i think i just assumed it was negative um it was mayor says it was um so on the one side I need to be able to be responsive to the people. And on the other side, I need to be trusted to make a good decision. With that said, I 100% support our police and our fire. They are the backbone of our community. They put themselves on the line every single day for us. But if we can't explain to our residents why we need this and why it was so necessary, it's hard. Because on one side, if we had asked for a bigger amount, we would have been criticized for it being too large. But now we're also being criticized for the amount we're asking being too small. We're kind of in a no-win situation. And I'm not sure what to do with that other than Somehow we have not gotten the right questions that our residents wanted. All of the information we've put out on our Truth in Taxation website, all of the things that we've been trying to answer, we haven't answered those questions. And so I feel like we need to answer these questions for our public in a better way and come back and try again.

All right. Thank you. Anyone else want to speak? You're looking like you're thinking about speaking, Mr. Kilpack. I'm sorry, I won't put you on the spot. You moved the microphone, so I thought you'd sink in.

I'm happy to share my feelings. I would concur with the blessing of having the input tonight. In fact, I've made that comment to several, the dialogue, the public input, the wonderful questions. And all have been insightful and helpful for me in weighing that process, along with Councilman Muehlstein, who just has shared her feelings about representative as well as listening and the number of recent input tonight and with all the email processes. I'm grateful. I'm also, as was mentioned by Councilmember Mecham, that through this process of being aware of those that are the least among us in the form of those that are on fixed income, have specific individual needs, as he mentioned, there are, and I've looked, that's the thing that I looked into, there's about four or five programs that they're all eligible for. And so I think as part of this process we just need to make sure that we have those all available in a public forum for them to easily get to to apply for if they find this hardship or other hardships in their property taxes or other things. But with all that said, my commitment to public safety and the first responders of our city having, again, that more stable base and not short-term dollars but long-term opportunities has led me to the opinion that with this, I think it's better to have that long-term opportunity stabilization in place. And so those are just my thoughts as I've listened to all of those that have shared their opinions and feelings, and I respect them all. And on some issues we may disagree, but I do respect everyone's opinion that's been shared today. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Council Member Lambson.

Thank you. And just to echo everything that has been said thus far, I agree on every point and I take this decision very seriously. We've spent a lot of time looking at this, weighing, considering, looking at numbers. I appreciate the extra help because I am not a numbers guy. But I appreciate the extra help and explanation and the thoughtfulness there. And again, just thank you for being here and for caring. Back, if I could just share an experience. Is that OK, Mayor, if I talk for a little bit?

Talk away. OK.

Yes, I'll be done by midnight. I promise.

Oh, wait a minute now. So they need to set the timer from 3 minutes and he's out.

So, back in 2019, I became. acquainted with the situation that was happening with our first responders. I was running for election and I was not aware that we had a problem. I didn't know that we were losing some of our most experienced officers to other cities. They could go to other cities where the workload was not nearly as stressful, not nearly as hard, and they were being courted. And we had a situation, culture was a little different then, and we were really in a bad place. Someone mentioned earlier that Orem had been the, I don't remember the word that was used, but Orem was the place that every first responder wanted to come to work. And that was slipping away. And back in 2019, I remember sitting in a meeting similar to this, and they were talking about a little bit of a tax increase to pay for some more police officers, those four officers that Chief Robinson referred to and explained earlier. It was very competitive then and it's very competitive now. And we were losing some of our most experienced first responders. The training back then, I want to say just for the training alone, it seems like it was right around $100,000 was a number that was put on, a dollar amount that was put on those officers going through that process and becoming ready to go out and do their work. I'm sure it's gone up significantly since then. But the experience and the knowledge that these first responders carry with them is priceless. The things that they experience, the things that they have in their toolbox, if you would, on how to handle certain situations can only come through being there. And so again, that experience and that knowledge is priceless. I remember talking with several different officers and firemen and becoming a little more acquainted about the burdens and just all of the things that they deal with and that they work through. I believe that, as has been stated many times before, our first responders are the best in the state, if not the best in the country. I am so impressed with the way that they conduct themselves, and I think we're all in agreement with that. I made a commitment to them that I would always remember the things that I learned from them and always to take that into consideration. They have our backs. When we run away from danger, they are running into it. Not only do they run, but they get there in record time. And not only do they arrive in record time, but they arrive with the best training, knowledge, technology, and equipment to remedy a bad situation. And not only do they arrive with all of this, they come as a professional team. I've witnessed how each person shows up in a situation, each person having a role and a responsibility performing at the highest and best levels. And not only do they all do all of this when they show up and they bring all of this with them, they bring with them compassion or grit, empathy or a shield, whichever that situation needs. they are prepared to deal with it on a very compassionate level if that is needed or with force in those situations where that is needed. And I'm grateful to know that they're there, that they're trained and that they are able to do that. Again, I wanna make sure that they have every bit of protection, training, safety equipment, everything that can be provided for them, because I know for sure that when you and I need them, they will be there. And if they need us, which it sounds like they do, I would like to think that the citizens of Orem will be there for them. Not only that, but as I stated earlier, I want their wives and children and their families to know that we all have their backs. There's another side of this profession that you and I don't see, and it doesn't show up in the newspaper or on a social media post, but it's a very real part of this job. These brave men and women show up in the most horrendous of situations and deal with things we can't even imagine. These events, I am sure, weigh heavily on their minds and their hearts and create all kinds of post-traumatic stress disorders, anxieties, and depression that we can't even comprehend. I want to make sure that they have every mental health and emotional health resource available for not only our first responders but their families as well. I think we can all agree that the world has changed in the last five years since this last study in 2021 that was done. One thing that I've noticed about our police force is that they are noticeable. I don't know if there's a term for this, but I would call it preventative presence. When you go to a school and there's a police car there, We don't know the effect that that has or what that drives away, what evil does not show up because there is a police car and an officer there. Or when we go to events at the Sears Shell, I've noticed that we have a police car there. That Sears Shell crowd is pretty rough sometimes. But who knows what that preventative presence detours. And lots of other places and lots of other ways. Not only are they there, but I've noticed that they're there working and they're building relationships and strengthening relationships wherever they are. As City Manager Bybee mentioned, we want to be customer service oriented. And I feel like not only with first responders, but across city staff, everyone tries to be customer oriented and customer service oriented. We've all taken this very seriously, and we're all fiscally conservative and want to be fiscally responsible. This action is not a blank check or an open checkbook, but in my mind it's a metered and a measured approach to helping to create a foundation and a baseline that we can count on. To our executive staff, also all world class, know that as part of their responsibilities, they are to look for and find ways to cut costs. And they do this every single year and throughout the year to be more efficient and to look for ways to save these funds that come from the citizens. We operate on a balanced budget. We have an amazing team that is constantly looking into and working on grants to save our taxpayers money. My concern with this, as has been expressed before, back in 2019 when we were in that situation then, there was a circumstance where raises had not been given for quite some time. And they didn't have the funds, and so costs were cut. And our police officers, our fire, they were suffering from that. And I don't ever want to go there again. And so in the situation that we have a downturned economy, a market crash or something horrible like that, where that sales tax decreases, this will allow us to be able to maintain the same level of service from our first responders. Again, I feel like someone mentioned earlier that the easy thing to do would be to vote for this. But in my mind, it's a harder thing in my my. core of who I am is I am never for taxes. I don't believe in tax increases. I don't believe in large government. I don't believe in any of those things. But at the same time, and as was mentioned, listening to the people that have been here tonight, there's a significant number of people just in my little circle, everyone almost that I've talked with when you explain what this is and what's happening, they're like, well, yeah, I can deal with that. I'm in favor of that. So tax increases are not easy, but I feel like it is the responsible, the fiscally responsible thing to do to make sure that we have that foundation, that baseline, and that we can continue to have the level of service that we've come to expect here in Orem.

Thank you. Didn't you say you're going to go to midnight? You've got another two hours and 25 minutes.

I might just take that time, Mayor. You never know. Okay.

All right. Council Member Millett, take it away.

Okay. So, wow. So just all kinds of things. You should see my little notes up here. I'm all over the place. To Jeff's point, in 2019, that was so interesting to hear that because when I ran in 2021, I met with a group of concerned citizens. supporting the police that were very concerned with the state of our police and fire at that time. So it's ebbs and flows. I mean, I really, I just, it's so hard to see the struggle. I just want you gentlemen in the blue to know, so hard to see this. I'm going to start here. Before I talk about budgets, revenues, or taxes tonight, I want to begin by expressing my very strong support and appreciation for the men and women of the Orem Police Department and our Orem firefighters. 100%. I'm behind you. Our first responders protect our residents, they save lives, and serve this community every day with their tremendous skill, their professionalism, their empathy. I have three cousins who are police officers. One is LA County Sheriff, one is in Long Beach, the other one's up in Heber. I have to tell you, when I see you, I think of them. I always think, what's my cousin doing right now? Where is he? So it's often very personal for me. We've challenged our chiefs of our departments, our fire and our police chief, for the last four years to be among the very best. Because like I say, four years ago, there were problems, and we had to solve some things. And it was a lot of communication, a lot of work, a lot of great things happening. I've loved the last four years. And I feel if we ask that of you, that we then have the responsibility to provide compensation, training, mental health services, equipment, ammo. Those are little things police officers have talked to me about, that we need to be able to supply facilities to help you all succeed. And not just succeed, but to help you Be confident in what you do that will protect your life, that will be there as you protect other lives, that you're also have the training to be able to know instinctively what to do. That's so important to me. Like I say, that hasn't always happened in Orem. Our council and staff, over the past five and a half years, I think have worked very hard to do that and to make Orem a place where exceptional police officers want to come to. You know, the woman who said it used to be a destination, I think it still is. I truly believe. I've seen the culture, I've talked to y'all, and yes, it's a great place to be. I have to admit, I was very shocked to read that email this afternoon. It was really hard for me to hear the struggles that some of y'all are having and to not have known about that because I'm a fixer. And I wish, you know, I really like to fix things. I had really hoped that our communities had recovered from the horrors of 2020, from the defund the police messages. That was so upsetting to me. Why anyone would ever think that and why some of it still happens somewhere. I just think that that's, it's important to me that our police feel supported in our community and wherever you are. I love your picnics. I love everything you do. I want to just shift the gears here for a minute and, you know, also on it from an emotional standpoint, it was really hard to hear folks talk about affordability. You know, the fixed income, the truly, yeah, it's a happy meal, but you know what? Some people aren't buying happy meals. They're not getting the swig. They're budgeting right down to the penny. And I respect that. And I recognize that as a struggle. So very important to recognize the affordability issues. We've had tax increases from, well, in fact, the mayor stole my speech. You know, Mayor Young, the county, right? The water district, we're still paying school bonds. I mean, I support education, that's great, but it's a big chunk. I mean, there's really been some multiple inflation, insurance, auto insurance. I mean, there's so much going on right now that's outside of the control of this city council right here. Those are out of my control. I can only pull the lever for what I can control, okay? Like the property tax increase. I just want to say that doesn't mean that I believe Orem should never raise property taxes. I'm not in that camp. I am kind of an ideologue. I'm a conservative. I think you go to your budget and you trim. But I'm not a never say never person. And that's kind of what I'm struggling with right now. But I want to kind of give a little background of my perspective here. Because when I came into this position four and a half years ago, it was. I'd been in these meetings. I'd heard the complaints from the fire and stuff. And so we came up with a plan. We came up with a plan on how we were going to help fund and build our city hall and do some of these things that we wanted to do without raising taxes and stay true to that core value. So the plan, you've heard some of them, but I'm just gonna review real quick. Find efficiencies, right? Strategy and innovation, Jennica's team, amazing. I'm just amazed at what you come up with and how you find these things. The HR person that resigned, splitting that job three ways. groundbreaking there, right? Grants and outside funding, still very aggressive on that. We're still pursuing that. Now one key that I'm kind of moving into right now is pursuing not only those grants, but also relationships. You know, we were at a ribbon cutting with the county commissioner yesterday. Interestingly enough, he talked about how he funded something in another city and they weren't very grateful. And I said, come to Orem. We'll take that $250,000 that you gave to them. Come to Orem. We'll make it work, you know? So those relationships, I was at a meeting last week with Congressman Mike Kennedy on the federal level. Let's, you know, that's part of the puzzle to make this happen. Better partnerships and contracts. You know, Orem provides a lot of services for fire and police. other organizations. We need to make sure that our taxpayers are properly compensated with those agreements. And the fourth one is what I want to talk about for just a second and that was economic development. We hired an economic development director. Our other one, she was wonderful, but she didn't want to do the commute anymore. So we hired this guy. And when we were going to hire him, I said, I want to move her and shake her. I want somebody who's going to help us with this sales tax infrastructure that we have in place, bringing more of that and bolstering that up. Because frankly, we kind of dipped a little bit, right? I think part of it's because of the State Street Master Plan. There was no remodeling, very little infrastructure improvements for five years in Orem, and we were feeling it. for five years, 2018, 19, 20, 23. You look now and there's a lot of remodeling and rebuilding and new places, new businesses too. So part of that economic development piece of the puzzle, the fourth spoke, was that we asked this economic development director, we tasked him with strengthening our existing businesses, attracting new investment, and expanding ORM's economic base. and doing experiential, you know, bringing people to Orem. Spend your money and then go home, you know? We're gonna really kind of create Orem's the place to be. Orem is very cool, like the t-shirt says, right? So he's working on that. His directive was, do things that create an environment where families can thrive, and that's part of that. Every dollar of additional revenue we can generate through stronger business community is a dollar we don't have to ask our residents to provide through taxes, okay? I've kinda gone on a little too much. I don't know that, I feel like we're still at the early stages of that plan. I kind of want to give that plan a chance. We've got this great economic development director that we've hired. I feel like we're just starting. He's barely been on the job for a few months. So I want to keep finding efficiencies, keep doing grants, keep making relationships. I don't think we're there yet for some of these other things. Supporting our first responders and being careful with our residence tax dollars are not and should not be competing values. We can do both. We can provide police and fire departments with the resources that they need while continuing our plan to grow Orem's revenues before we ask our families to contribute more. To me, that is sound fiscal policy. Planning for the future, prioritizing public safety, and living within our means. Tonight, I support hiring two more police officers. HOWEVER, MY ANGLE IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT. TO PROVIDE THE 450,000 THAT WE NEED, WE NEED TO FIND THAT IN OUR EXISTING BUDGET. $177 MILLION BUDGET, WE CAN'T FIND $450,000.25%. Of course we can. You should be able to cut a budget 5% every year. That's kind of the guide they always taught us in college, right? You should always be looking for efficiencies. And we do. And we do. But tonight I'm just going to put out that challenge to do that, to reprioritize some of our planned amenity improvements. Maybe wait another year to replace a vehicle. Because some of these things that I circled, some of these comments that these people said, it's gonna force the elderly out of their home. I mean, I love the guy that said, I loved how you helped him with the bomb threats. supporting our police um the one gentleman who said let's all donate and help those people you know that was cute right public safety should not be negotiable yeah it comes out first it comes out first from our budget um but i'm going to say one last thing um well maybe more than one okay um i kind of feel like we're talking about the wrong thing tonight I was really stunned at the chief's comments. And I feel it's important to solve the real problem. And the problem is we've got to help our police officers and this position be seen for the wonderful thing that it is and that they are. This is a culture thing that we all in our community for or against a tax increase need to start pushing out there. It is really, you know, it's a real problem it sounds like if we can't even recruit. This is not about not having the money because you told me they promised you they could find it in the budget, right? But we've got to find a way to maintain these strong officers, and I feel like that's the problem. I don't feel like it's a funding problem right now. There's always funding problems. I'll take that back. Everybody wants the money. Everybody wants a piece of the pie. But it's such a small... percentage of even our public safety budget, $41 million. I'm trying to remember. I'll get the numbers out there. But let's find it. Let's do it. Let's do it tomorrow. I mean, get those three guys. Get them going. Get them a car. Let's do it. Find a way that we can sacrifice somewhere else in our budget. I'm pretty sure all of these ones that we've talked about, these things that we so love about Orem, I can't, you know, the one gentleman who wants to pay to help people who can't afford it, I think all of us would say we'll sacrifice waiting another year for a park upgrade or something like that in order to hire two or more police officers. in this era of these struggles that you have. So I feel like we have more work to do. We have more opportunities to pursue before I am willing to ask Orem families to pay more. So I just want to end with my support, 100% support of pushing for that additional monies that you need, Chief. If this doesn't pass, I'm there for you, you know, because it's that important. You need to come off the top. So thank you for my comments. Let me make my comments.

All right. Thank you. Does anyone else want to say anything before I say something? Okay. First of all, council, colleagues, thank you. It's a privilege to serve with you. I have really, I've thoroughly enjoyed hearing what your thoughts are. I know that it's weird and crazy but I love public policy. and to hear the different perspectives. And I value each of those perspectives and each of you as you've shared those thoughts. And you, the residents, thank you. Thank you for the sacred trust you've given to us to be stewards of our community, not just the funds, but the well-being. It's a responsibility that I take very seriously. Councilmember Millett, thank you. You've done a really good job. Did a really good job recapping what's happening now. Sorry, I'm gonna cross that off. We're doing great on, yes, the things. I think part of it harkens back to To the efficiency study, Mary Young, thank you. That's a thing that we've really hung and clung to is we've become a very efficient organization. And that was something that, as we go forward in the budget, we say, OK, we have this efficiency study. We're doing these different things. If we want to do more or something different, how does it relate to that? Is it the most efficient way that we can do it, plus be fiscally responsible, plus meet the needs of those in the community? And yes, I appreciate the comments on the most vulnerable. I spent over a decade working with those of the most vulnerable in our community. I remember teaching a class on budgeting and how one gentleman was He'd never done a budget in his life and he was so thrilled that he had $2 left at the end of the month. That he said, I did a budget and I have $2 left. That's something that's very important is to remember the impact on all the members of our community. Appreciate the comments, she's not here anymore, about how it does affect housing affordability. And I recognize that. One thing I just want to emphasize, where I'm going to be coming from here, and I appreciate what everybody said, but as I outlined my thoughts, I saw that Councilmember Gale and I were, it probably frightens you that we kind of think, we were thinking the same thing. One of the comments that came up numerous times this evening was, we create this public safety fund. It's always going to need to be filled or backfilled with other things besides property tax. The unfortunate reality is probably yes. Some other funds are going to be needed because property taxes, I can't envision our property tax ever completely paying for our public safety needs. But it is something that I do think that we need to consider very carefully. And is it something, and I appreciated what Ms. Wilding said. That just the structure change, the concern that the structure change makes future increases easy. And I wrote a note to myself. I said, I understand. I understand where she's coming from on that. That, yeah, just because we say, oh, we're going to put it in public safety. Who's ever opposed to public safety? And we're going to do the problem. Yeah, I get that. But this is where I'm coming from. We, for one of the first, I think it was at our city council retreat was the first time, well, the first time this year we heard about, and we've heard about it since, about the sustainability study. about ORM's reliance on sales tax. We've been very fortunate. We have wonderful businesses. We've got a growing community to our west that doesn't have a lot of commercials. Commercials continuing to grow, but right now we are the recipients of sales tax revenue that comes from Vineyard. And we don't get sales tax revenue from people coming from what used to be Spanish Fork or more from Provo or American Fork. We don't have that. I was on the city council when we were during the Great Recession. I remember, Brandon, when our rainy day fund went very low. And it's like, oh no, what are we going to do? And it was pretty rough. So the position and the direction that I took is, okay, what is the most stable council? What's the most stable tax that we have at our disposal? Right, it's property tax. And we can do franchise, we can talk about franchise taxes and other types of things like that, but I mean, property tax, comparatively to sales tax, is very stable. So that's why I have that piece here. Then I think what, and my background is in land use planning. I've worked for cities, and I'd argue that, Mr. McGinn, that community development, that's the most important department. But yeah, it is. But the thing is is that as a community, we're charged, but providing this public safety, So here I've got this need, the public city, what are the most basic, I didn't hear one single person this evening council say, I don't think we ought to fund, I don't think we need the officers or anything like that. I didn't hear that at all. I heard... unanimously that yes, we need to provide for our public safety officers and all our first responders. And so I look at that as a need, a crucial need in our community, even though all the other departments, we love you too, I love you all, but I understand that this need that we have. And so I look at how can I, with an unpredictable sales tax and something that's as vulnerable as sales tax, where can I put this crucial need the funding for this crucial need, as much as I possibly can at this point. And then to me, it's in that public safety, it's creating a public safety special revenue fund. So we have that year to year that we know that we are, we've told our residents, that this is a priority for us, that we're going to set this aside. I do want to express my concern later on as we go on with the sustainability that we've had these presentations that we... I'm concerned about the ability to continue to finance and fund other programs and including public safety is if sales tax does decline, which I hope it doesn't happen. I hope we just flourish. But we saw it happen in 2008 and I just don't know what's going to happen. So in conclusion, That is why I support the creation of this public safety special revenue fund. It's a place, a secure place that we can say, this is where we're gonna put this. Do I recognize that? Yes. We gotta be careful with that. I think that our residents cautioned us this evening on that and reminded us that yeah, it can make it easier to raise property taxes in the future. We gotta be very, very careful with that. And I do believe that we need to raise our taxes and raise this $450,000. Appreciate the idea. We could find it. Yeah, we could find it in the budget. But I don't think that's healthy for the long-term sustainability that I think we as stewards of the community are looking for. So... Those are my thoughts. And so all of us, anyone else want to say anything before we need? I really don't want to stay here for another two hours. We don't need to stay until midnight. But any other thoughts, questions, comments, concerns? Anything that you want to say before? Are we ready to make a motion of some sort?

Mayor, I can make a motion.

All right. Council member.

I move that the city council approved by ordinance and increase the property tax rate, approve and adopt the final budget for fiscal year 20262027, including the levy of property tax efficient to increase ongoing property tax revenues by 450,000 dollars per year. Adopt the dedication of the general operations portion of the City of Worms property tax levy to the Public Safety Special Revenue Fund. Adopt compensation programs. Adopt the fees and charges schedule. Adopt the franchise tax, municipal energy sales and use tax, telecommunications license tax, transient room tax, and E-911 rates.

Right. Thank you. We have a motion. Second. All right. Council Member Kilpack seconds the motion. Council, is there any further discussion before we take a vote? Seeing none. Okay. I'm going to start the vote. I'll vote aye. Council Member Pro Mayor Pro Tem Lampson.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Nay. Nay. All right, thank you. The motion carries, and 5-2. So thank you, Council. I know you've spent a lot of time working on this and studying and listening, and I really appreciate what you've done. And the exec staff, thank you, and residents, thank you as well. Appreciate you being here this evening. With that, I would entertain... Oh, I know this isn't on the agenda. Do you have any announcements, Mr. Bybee?

No announcements, just I can recommit publicly that we will, as staff and as an organization, do everything we can to provide the best value to our Orem residents. Despite the seriousness and heaviness and importance of your decision tonight and the subject, I do want to say that I did find out that by moving to Orem that my property tax bill is going down by more than half per square foot. So I just... So, yeah, Orem gives a great rate, great value, and we'll continue to do everything we can to maintain that.

All right. Thank you. I'd like to entertain a motion to adjourn. I have a motion to adjourn. We have a motion. Is there a second? Second. A second. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right. We stand adjourned. Thank you.