City Council - Regular Meeting

Welcome you to our work session today of the warm city council. We have. Is everybody zooming in? Is everybody on? We have. Okay, so we have council members, you can kill pack, you know, steam all. Putting us virtually. And we'll welcome them, and we welcome you all here personally. We'll go ahead and start with our first item. It's the Utah County Major Crimes Update, five-minute presentation, five-minute Q&A. And our presenters are Police Chief B.J. Robinson and Lieutenant Justin Gorton, UCMC Field Director. Welcome. Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor and Council. Justin Gordon works for the Sheriff's Office, and he's the field director for Utah County Major Crime Task Force. Lieutenant Phil Anderson is an Orem lieutenant. He's the director of our task force. He's on vacation, or he would be sitting here talking to you today, so it's a good fiddle for that. I just want to educate and talk to you about our task force. It's been gone for over two decades. Our task force, the fiduciary of the task force has been with Olin for a majority of that time, just over two decades. And so we work a lot with Brandon in finance and things like that to make the task force run. This slide is just our... logo and badge for our task force. It shows the agencies from Utah County, the federal partners that are part of our task force. And so some agencies don't have any officers that participate in it. Some of the larger agencies like us, Provo, American Fork County have multiple officers and supervisors that provide support to the task force. So what does the task force do? Their primary responsibility is drug trafficking organizations and drug enforcement that affects our county and cities. gang enforcement when needed, and then any type of major crime or major incident that occurs where a police agency needs extra manpower, or I as a chief say, hey, we need some extra manpower in this type of investigation, then I would contact either Justin or Phil and request them to come and help. And so... That's our county on a map and just kind of shows a few of the numbers associated with our partners, kind of the makeup of what it is. We are grant funded. There is a state grant, that's a CCJJ grant, and then a federal HIDA grant, high intensity drug trafficking area. And we are one of how many in Utah? I want to say... 3 or 4 different agencies in in Utah and then the city assessment. So, each year, the city's assessed kind of a. Let's see a fee just to keep the lights on type of a thing that helps go for overtime training equipment, things like that. And that's population based and that goes up every so often. And so when I was a younger cop and was a sergeant, I was assigned to the task force in early 2000s in 2010. The big drug that was causing our community's problems was meth. And then fast forward to when I was the director in Phil's spot in 27, 2019, it was heroin. Fast forward to the last several years and it's now fentanyl. And so this just shows and highlights some of the fentanyl seizures year to date from 2025 until current. This is what's coming into our community. Um, just, you know, we live in a wonderful place and a wonderful County. Uh, we have major drug problems and major drug trafficking organizations that operate in our state and in our County. And so it's not just your, uh, local dealer that you may envision or may see on the, on a street corner. Uh, but these are organizations that are operating in our communities. that part of our task force is focused on. They also focus on the neighborhood problems, but their primary goal is to disrupt major drug trafficking organizations. And so those are just some numbers to throw at you to kind of not shock and awe, but to realize the good work that they are doing on a continual basis. I'm trying to think of where else to go with some of the, mostly I wanted to answer any questions that you may have regarding the task force or what they do. But one of the things that I appreciate about the task force is when we have like a, let's say either a homicide or a, not more than a missing person, but something where time is of the essence where we need to find a suspect. Go back to the slide before. They bring 38 detectives to bear like that, and they are all highly trained and highly efficient at surveillance, following people, most for the most part, undetected, and being able to bring a lot of manpower to bear on an incident and support. And I've seen that time and time again in our own agency in Orem and throughout the county of where the task force comes to as a force multiplier to an agency to help with that investigation. And that's one of the other beauties that I appreciate about our task force, appreciate about our county of being a chief in this county is the cooperation that we enjoy amongst other agencies to help one another out. And I think the Our task force has operated for decades under that same understanding, that team effort, and it continues on. So any questions or anything that you would want to add? He's here to help and also answer the questions that I don't know.

Any questions?

I'm just curious. I mean, the amount of seizures is amazing. Do we have any kind of, I mean, a sense of how much of that is getting through that we're not, that we're unaware of or that is just sneaking through somehow? Those are, that just blows me away. Yeah, so. The dollar amount.

Not only the dollar amount, but that in 2025, that is 2 million, 2.5 million pills of fentanyl. That's how we generally see the fentanyl is in pill form. They make it look like other pills. But yeah, we're not getting it all. Our goal is to, but we aren't. we get into these organizations and we, we do a takedown after our investigation. Uh, we shut these organizations down for just a few weeks and then they send up more people, more groups. They're, they're cartel related for the most part. That's where they're getting their supplies from there. They're here and that's who we're after. Um, but yeah, we're, um, We're not getting it all, but we're trying our best. Year to date this year, we've had 30 federal indictments just from our investigations, which is huge. That's guys and gals that will take minimum mandatory sentences in the federal system for distributing drugs around Utah County.

By comparison, when I was there maybe 10 years ago and thought we were doing a job, we were happy if we got double digits of federal indictments in a calendar year. And so just the high level of work that they're doing, the feds to take on a prosecution, everything needs to be buttoned up and I's dotted, T's crossed at the utmost, and they're performing at that level. Any other questions?

Yes. So I toured the, I can't remember what it's called, up there by the National Guard, the federal.

By the point of the mouth. Yeah. Are you talking about the NSA? Yeah.

On your other slide, you had their name at the bottom, right?

HSI?

Utah National Guard counter.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Do you interface with them much?

Yeah, we have two National Guard counter-drug analysts. Yeah, they're assigned to our task force full-time. It bounces back between one and two. If they get down numbers, they have to pull one, but right now we have two. And they're doing behind-the-scenes work as we... They'll come up with suspect names, plates, addresses. They're figuring out stuff for us to tie to this investigation.

So I'm trying to figure out county. Most of what you do is you're in the county. So if things spill over to other...

So we are working to make Utah County a better place. However, if people are dealing drugs here, we will chase them wherever they reside. We spend a lot of time outside our county, but we look for the ties to our county to keep them out of here.

And can I just say... We're not Happy Valley. We are. We're happy here. There's stuff going on here.

Absolutely. And we appreciate what you're doing.

Thank you. So it sounds like you rotate officers through. How does that work?

How does that all? It would be different from agency to agency. Here at ORM, we usually rotate them around every three to five years based upon need and how they're performing, what needs we have back at the agency. Maybe they promote out of that. Maybe it's just their time. There's a lot of different philosophies on that. It does take time. It's a very specialized assignment down there. And so you need to leave them in there marinating for a while until they get good at it. And so you don't want to pull them out just as they're starting to get good and get in traction and then pull them out. And so there's kind of a sweet spot. And sometimes that depends. Sometimes they benefit from timing and needs and they're in there for four or five years and sometimes not so much. But it does vary from agency to agency on how they choose to rotate officers through.

So is that how it works? We have like 30, you said 38 detectives. Are they all, 38 detectives are full-time with the UCMC, but Orem sends X number of and they're full-time over there, then they don't necessarily work here.

So Orem, we have the field director, the lieutenant, we have two sergeants, and then we have three detectives that are assigned there full-time. And so over the years, we used to have four, and I want to say that was 2009. We used to have four detectives, but just manpower and restructuring, sometimes when we were down on patrol, We don't like to pull them back from task force to come back to patrol. But if things got to bare bones, then we have to staff patrol. So that would be a reason why.

Thank you. Thank you for your service and thank you for your work on this.

Appreciate your support with this program. I always like to give a shout out to Brandon because he helps us quite a bit, keeping our financials in order and helping us with things. And so we try to make that lift as easy as possible, but it is a lift nonetheless. So we appreciate Orem being the fiduciary of the task force and it very much is a benefit to the task force. Thank you guys.

Thank you. The next item on the agenda is a presentation by Taggart Bowen, our city engineer. Capital construction project update. 20-minute presentation, 10-minute. There's Taggart. Hello, Taggart.

Hi. I don't know if I have enough word. I hope that's pretty good. Why? All right.

I've been asked to provide a presentation for the IP projects. That's for capital improvement projects. And I thought it'd be good to have this map just as a reference and then get it later. And I look at it while I'm talking up on the screen here, showing you all the projects. These aren't all construction projects going on right now, but everything that we're either working on coming up in the future or under construction. Got them numbered there, like, for example, number one, open the map on the left side there, near 8th North, points over to the blue color, which is Project Lance Excavations working on. And this is to provide better clarity on the map. It's not pointing to every blue, but if you look at the different blue areas there in the middle, those are also Lance. Number six points to a project that Silver Spur is working on. You can see other green areas there in the middle. That's part of our sewer project. So we've got a lot going on. It'd be really hard in this short time. I have to go through every project and talk about everything we're doing, but there is a lot going on to coordinate. And you can see there the numbering, number one through 12 in construction. 13 through 18 are projects that have been completed. this year. 19 through 28 are currently in the bid award process where we're working with contractors to either get them started on construction this year or they're just been advertised and we're looking at the proposals and bids received. 29 through 40 are upcoming future projects that were in our design process with our team working hard. those upcoming design projects. And then in the 40s is the MAG UDOT projects that are either coming up, or most of those are construction, the big road whitening type projects on mostly UDOT.

And Mayor, as Taggart said, as you can see, there's so much going on that they're doing. We don't have a lot of time to get into detail of each one. This is intended to be an overview, give you a flavor. But if there are certain projects that you would like more information on, we can come back and get into more detail on those projects.

Thank you very much.

I wanted to just go over a little bit quickly what a CIP project entails. A lot of times we just see the construction going on. We see the roads being paved, but there's a lot of planning that goes on. And part of that, I just want to go through quickly the phases of a capital improvement project. In the beginning, we have our pre-bid phase, which would be our staff's meeting with River has requested the project was public works fire please or any other departments and all that have a need or or meeting with them trying to understand the scope of the project. We come up with a concept but the other cost estimate and work will see with them to start and preparing fine tuning what that project and it'll get right away ever city survey or we'll look at impacts right away whether we need to purchase right away get easements Our designers will work with any stakeholders, whether that's different agencies, property owners, words, and specifications. As we create the final plan, stamp those specifications together, outlining what will be fitting for the project, and advertise it. Maybe a proposal or a bid award. We put that through our online bidding process on Bonfire, the website we use. And then after we receive bids, we review those. We look at references. We make sure the bids are, the quantities are accurate. We compare them with, we look at references and put together contract agreements. Make sure legal's good with that. We'll set up pre-construction meetings and make sure to look at submittals. When we get into the construction phase, we're kind of all encompassing for every one of these items is project management where we have a great team that we've got our design engineers that have been involved with planning from the very beginning. And then the construction engineers will come in with their experience and team up to manage the project. And they do a great job making sure following our city standards. So provide a regular inspections, making sure plans and standards are our standards are being met. And then in the completion part, they'll verify that those items have been completed. And then we have our payment performance bonds, making sure to have our warranty in there as well. I just wanted to highlight a few projects. We've got some pictures of Dave Spencer here. He would love this one. This is 950 North.

That one's for four years. That was just me for a year.

It's been years in the making.

This is a picture of looking west on 950 North plants, putting the water in and then

This is in the same place. You can see that wooden fence on the left. So same location. There's the, you can see the water lane patch there. And then this is BHI who we hired to do the roads project after Lance did their project doing the reconstruct. There's the paving. It's another project that's been going on on, I don't know the number of it on there. Center Street 12th West and then also 8th North 12th West. They've done a great job with making it look better. There's a picture of what it used to look like. There's a grading of that area. This is right off the 12th West and Center Street. What it looks like now. It looks so good now. I hope it stays like that because it's hard to keep, you know, the weeds out of that type of rock. But it looks really good. It's true. Better than wreck. We're on it.

You're on it.

It's really good. So this is just south of there. What it used to look like. That's what it looks like now. This is the fire train facility down there. Johnson property, 1600 West, was a farm field. Got the building going up, the two fire burn buildings in the background. There's a curb and gutter going in. Kind of what it looks like now, and then there's the vents and landscaping. It's been a great, great project. This is a project done by Ecker. You can see on the plan, I believe it's number 15, that they put in a storm drain like Boris. This serves as a storm drain and also as a flush line for the well. This is just a picture looking at the HDP line under the canal pipes. That's what it looks like now. This is our concrete project. It was done earlier this year. They installed a speed table on 16 South. So that's what it looked like before. It's done during the project, and then that's what it looks like now. ADA ramp. This project's currently going on. It's construction. This is a water line just off of 1700 South and State Street. This is a picture of the storm drain line through the commercial business. I believe it's a state down there. This is just off of about 18 south of State Street looking east. You can see that brick building there, and that's what it looks like now. So they did a really good job. Paving that. Striping's back. You can see under that car, the panel there is a felt. This is a project down at Lakeside Sports Park. It's going on right now. And that's what it looks like. See from the curb and gutter alignment, it's moved to the east. So that lines up with the the intersection to the south. This project, you're familiar with this, is Fort South-Fort West Pump Station Wall House, which has been ongoing for years, and it's scheduled to be completed, I believe, next year. That's their part. It's a bid process. Just got them back. Just got bids, so that one's coming up, future project. This one is just, I see the fence going up out here. It's just starting. I just saw the trees coming down.

I was sad. There's a little melancholy watching them go down. I'll be honest with you. But I'll trade that for the fence.

I'll get over it.

We'll replace them 1.5 to 1.

So we'll put back in more than we take down.

Yeah.

That's just a site plan of what that will look like. And we're working with Avenue Consultants on the Center Street widening project between Geneva and I-15. And we've been working on that for a while with them. That's MAG project.

Update. I know you said this already, but would you reorient us on what the different colors mean in the map?

Yes. So if you look at the map, the yellow color, they're just related to different projects. Yellow's for micro. So you'd have to find the number that points to. If you look down on the right side of the map, number 10 points to that yellow. They're on 8 south on the very side yeah and then look here on on the list number 10 micro so anything yellow in there would be related to that right okay so these colors on this map are related to different types of street maintenance yeah they smell yeah the green are related to sewer then purple for storm drain blue for water

I mean, I need to... Thank Taggart for putting this together. As you can see, there's a tremendous amount of work going on in the city. Not just projects that have recently been done, but we're in the process of doing and in the process of designing and bidding. The vast majority of the projects that we do in the city are done in-house by Taggart. Taggart, in effect, runs probably one of the best engineering firms in the state. We design these projects. We work with Public Works and Reed and his group on their needs. We coordinate with them. We look at the projects. We design them in-house. We bid them out. We hire a contractor, and we manage the construction project all in-house. A lot of communities don't do that. The advantage that that gives us... is we're very nimble, and if we get in the middle of a project and a different priority rises to the surface, we can quickly pivot. I don't ever have a conversation with Taggart about, well, Gary, that's a change order that we're going to charge you. Because we're doing it in-house, and it gives us a lot of flexibility. It also saves us money. A lot of communities, all they're doing are managing contracts. Believe it or not, some construction companies, all they have is somebody, they'll have a person on staff who does nothing but look for change orders. So we're able to, since we know the project, our engineers will be working closely with the police department on theirs. So we do this across the board. It's really, I know I'm going on and on, but too bad. You have to listen to this.

Oh, this is great. It's helpful.

Because Taggart leads truly one of the best engineering firms in the state. And we do this in-house. And it's a great benefit to the city and to the taxpayer for how we do it.

Top quality work. Yes. At very comparatively inexpensive costs. And municipal prices.

Yes.

And there's usually not the right hand, not knowing what the left hand is doing because.

Same hand. I got to give a shout out to our team. If you don't know who's in the engineering division, go meet them, get to know them. We've got a great group of work hard. They do the behind the scenes and they're awesome to work with. So if you don't know them, go. them and get to know them.

The conversation will last all like three minutes because they're really talkative. They got somewhere to go. Point and to tagger in terms of teamwork.

Yeah. 1 other picture too. I want to show that's that's questions.

This is where we're going to change.

That's lane. Gray's the focus. I don't even.

And that was taken yesterday. And this is when Ryan actually worked.

Actually.

So on one of those pictures, we talked about 950 North and there were multiple pictures there because there were multiple kind of teamwork working together, left hand and right hand needing to know and coordinate because something could start out as a streets project and then also turn into a water project and a storm drain project and a sidewalk and trail and landscaping project very quickly and easily. So this one right here, Brent. So if each of these services and infrastructure subjects were disparate, then yeah, there would be conflicts and we would run into the possibility of, you know, Redoing a water line 1. 1 month, and then the next month realize we need to go back and do some more and cut up the road all over again. So.

What you're saying is exactly why that took a little longer is we had to coordinate all of those improvements and funding for the large water tank project. Was was needed, so we had to wait until we had enough funds to do that. So it's glad we got it.

So, what you're saying is, we should go tell that to commissioner elect Dave.

Good lesson. Yeah. To point out this is the. Plan that part of the plan for the police station. The fence around it, if you just see all of the comments and how complicated you think, oh, we're just going to put in a fence. It's not that simple. There's so much work that goes on behind the scenes and so that the public knows. We treat ourselves just like a developer who would come in and develop in the city. We go through the same process. So in Taggart's shop, we have an engineering design group who comes in and designs projects. And we have a private development group that reviews the work of private developers when they come in. Our plans go through the same process that we go. Anybody in the community who would develop or build an ORM, we go through the same process ourselves as we ask them to do. And so we have lots of comments and So we work with a client to make sure their needs are met. We work to make sure all development issues are resolved and the public's protected.

I noticed I read an op-ed today. I think it was in this weekend's paper. And it was pointed towards municipal officials. And it was really interesting because it talked about, you know, we're always there for the ribbon cuttings and for the, you know, celebrations of something new, water tanks, new whatever. But it's also important to be there for the maintenance, to keep that infrastructure maintained and taken care of and continuing to serve the purpose that that ribbon was cut for, you know. And I've been to cities, I think we all have locations, areas that haven't necessarily done that. I think I really appreciate your forethought, your juggling the finances to make that work, because that is so important to keep a city at this same level of goodness. You know, the city who shall not be named, but I go to a doctor heading up north a little bit, and I know right when I'm in that city, I'm going to drive on their roads. So totally appreciate all that you guys do. And yeah, behind the scenes. This is so important to save money for our taxpayers.

Thank you.

Any questions or comments, Kel?

Do you convey our appreciation to your team as well? Next item on the agenda is a general plan process update. Jared Hall, our planning director. 15-minute presentation, 15-minute Q&A.

So while Jared's coming up, we started doing an update of the general plan quite a while ago, as you may be aware. And as the Planning Commission announced, well over a year ago, got into it. I think they found it's a little more complicated to do a general plan update than they may have thought. And we also had then on the planning commission some illnesses and resignations and things like that that came up. We now have a planning commission that's up and running with quite a few new members. And so we've been working with them, and we wanted to come in and give you an update on the general plan process and where we are and where we will be, and we think we're on a good trajectory. Great.

Jared? Thanks. Thanks for the intro. And I'll jump into it and then leave plenty of time for questions. And you can go talk to the engineers. They're chattier than you think. We're in talks with Sammy every day. I was a conversationalist, so I did the 1st slide is a timeline just an idea of what we, what we think we can do. If we, if we. If we maintain a couple of areas of focus and and. and really pin ourselves down. And we can come back to this later again too after we've talked about what goes into a general plan and kind of where we see it as a group needing to refocus. During August and September and October, we need to be able to draft. What we'd like to do, we have some chapters that are drafted and reviewed that need some more work and some that just need filling in. We can come back to that as well, but we'd like to keep you updated on it. So we would plan on updating the PC on where the draft is on the 2nd of September and then you all on the 22nd. We can do that in work sessions or whatever works out. But we want to be drafting during August, September, and October. The plan then would be to have that full draft ready for review. by you as a council and the commission and key staff, like the directors and legal, public works, everybody, so that we're not fouling anything up between the 1st of November, the beginning of November, and beginning of the holidays. That would let us redraft with edits during the holidays and then be back in for adoption at public hearings in January and February. We think we can do that if we pin down and draft during these next few months the remainder of what needs to be done. We can come back to talk about a little more, but just for starters, to talk about, just as a reminder, the general plan, these are kind of the three things. Sort of guiding principles for the draft work that we need to get back to the general plan needs to be general. It should be a high level. Planning document, it's not the same thing as zoning. We've talked about that and I know you're all aware, but. Just as a reminder for the new commissioners as well, we need to talk about this. The general plan is a high level general document. 1 of the goals when we 1st started doing this. at the end of 2024, talking about it and really getting started in 2025, was to align our general plan with the city's area of focus and goals that had been identified at that time. And then we wanted to keep the focus of this general plan on identifying objectives and strategies. And the way that I would, the example I would give is to remember that general plans are not binding. They're broad frameworks. And I think of it as this example is the one that I always use. Connectivity is an idea that belongs in a general plan. The idea that in general, Connecting streets is usually better for pedestrian safety, for transportation safety, and for vehicle safety as well. But the general plan is not where the tables about the allowed block lengths in different zones belong or how long a terminal street can be, for example. That kind of detail, we won't have the data to support those kinds of decisions in a general plan anyway. It should just identify that connectivity belongs in certain areas or is more important in Area B than Area A, for example. That's kind of the framework of a general plan and the purpose of it. The things that we took out of the goals and policies that the council had identified to get into the general plan were these. Safe and livable neighborhoods, and there are some subcategories there to promote approaches for owner occupancy, balancing housing options, preserving character of existing neighborhoods, and planning for the development of the heart of downtown to enhance our community life. thriving in balanced business environments, protecting strong economic foundations, creating opportunities for small businesses, exploring opportunities like incubator spaces and business development programs, and fostering connections with Utah Valley University was one of the things that came up early. And then dependable infrastructure, timely updates to the master transportation plan, efforts to improve connection of trails, adopting an active transportation master plan, that's in the works now too, and then continuing efforts for responsible water use, redevelopment. And that water chapter is, that was referencing the water chapter, and the water chapter has been adopted as part of the plan, though. A quick idea, just these are some of the plans and efforts that get referenced or should be referenced by the general plan. For example, when we say that we don't have the data right now for a big discussion about what block lengths ought to be to promote safety or connectivity or what have you. But different plans, as they get updated, could give us that kind of data. Okay. That's the kind of thing needs to be referenced the heart of downtown was identified the active transportation plan. A comprehensive housing study is probably needed at some point. There's not a lot of good planning for the South West area of the city where a lot of things are happening. Quarter plans could be looked at stationary plans could be looked at neighborhood plans could be updated. And again, I just relisted those quarter plans, because I'm just that that way. 3 of them right there at the end already identified, but these are, these are kinds of plans. Some of them exist or are in process right now, but others are ones that the general plan might. Identify as being needed, it wouldn't provide the data for those. It wouldn't provide the funding for those. It would just call them out. It wouldn't even provide a timeline for them necessarily. It would just call out that they might be things we need to look at. And with that, the reason I bring this, this slide up is to show that. The draft work that needs to be done on these is not impossible in the three months that we're planning to knock this out, because really they just need to be identified and what they can contribute. Does that make sense? So with that in mind, the timeline that we're proposing about the general plan, the process in general, we're proposing that we will do the writing now, the draft work. We were trying to do this very iterative process with the commission. They wanted to be very involved in how it would be written and drafted. That just did not really work out. So as we go forward, we'll do that draft work ourselves and present it for review instead.

I guess I would then question why are you, why do we have the, what is that? We're second with the planning commission. Should you do?

It would be an update on where the draft is.

So you're meeting with us. I mean, I thought we would pull the planning commission in after.

Good.

Had worked through it as a council and then pull them, send.

to them and then come back to us i don't expect to have all of the draft done on this would just be like an update of where we are so i just put them in and in my my brain always kind of because i process stuff mainly as a job i go from the planning commission to the city council but then we could do them in the reverse order as well we could show you guys where wherever we are in the draft as an update earlier in september and put on the second september planning committee too it doesn't it doesn't really Doesn't affect the timeline.

So then would you, I guess I'm trying to figure out, are we going back to the Planning Commission again? What are we required to do?

Eventually, yes, the general plan is a document that has to be recommended by the Planning Commission.

Yeah, the state law says, as I remember, the state law gives, says the Planning Commission, that's one of their very specific responsibilities, is general plan. And so that's why I think we have it this way, where the state law says the Planning Commission That's the general plan. It makes a recommendation to the City Council.

They'll have to hold.

Twice, I guess, is my question. It looks like we're planning commission twice. Am I reading that wrong?

Do you mean here at the end?

Yes.

Or draft review. Oh, draft review.

Well, it looks like it might be three times. I didn't see that one.

This would be full draft. Sorry, I should be more. So, this would, these would just be updates. I don't want to draft for 3 months and then come to the commission and to the council and say, here's the full draft. I want to midway through see if we're missing any big. Marks, so in this. It's one of the Burr months, September. Thank you. Appreciate that. In September, I would bring it to both bodies and say, here's where we are in the draft right now. Anything going wrong or are we way off base with this? We would finish then. And the draft review being available from 11-2, that's the first Monday of November. That date having it available would be the draft is available and we wouldn't be bringing it to you. We would be making email it, make it available. To all to the planning commission city council, same time at that point. So, at that point, we're just looking for comments from everybody. To get big things fixed and edited through the holidays.

And the real 1 is January public hearings happen in January.

I'm assuming 2.

Her her body, just in case you kind of still looking for help from the planning commission city council for your draft for input.

We're literally trying with the 1st. Goes at this general plan to have met a public facing. It was not easy to get, to get a public-facing Google Drive so that the commission could literally, commission members could edit comments in or make comments in. The idea was for a council to be able to do it, too. It just did not. People don't operate that way. One of the big shared documents that they could all participate in. It just didn't generate what we needed. And mostly in meetings and work sessions, we would wind up talking about, we got a lot of good information off the work sessions and things, but they weren't generating the necessary draft material that can be adopted. Lots of ideas.

Now you guys are going to draft.

And part of this is we want to come back and make sure that the ideas we've heard and we're putting together will come back with the council and say, okay, what did we miss? Because we'll have invariably missed something or there needs to be a different emphasis one way or another on something like that. But we've... in this iterative process it was a great idea in theory and execution it just didn't really work it was difficult for the planning commission to do it this way so we're really going back to a traditional model where we have conversations we get feedback and then we will do the drafting and by we the royal we jared

And Gary and Jared, can I put you on the spot in a public meeting? You promised not to get offended at any feedback, input, direction, questions that may come from the council and the planning commission.

I've never been offended in my life. I'm offended you would say that.

At the end of the day, in a very real sense, this is the council's document. And we're here merely to help you get the document you want.

And so... As we go through this, we think we're hearing you on certain items, but you know how it happens. And the difficulty with a council is sometimes you don't know for sure until you see a draft in front of you and then have some time to think about it. Because the concepts that we're talking about may sound fine, but as we put it into actual language, we want to make sure you feel comfortable with it, you're good with the direction, and we're fairly and accurately capturing the intent of the council. And then ultimately, as a council, you will have to decide and vote on it to adopt it as your document. So we're not going to be offended. We get offended so easily in so many other ways. This is not one of them.

Yes, council, I just want to just reiterate what, not about being offended. But in a prior chapter, I worked as a planner for a community and drafted a general plan and put what the council wanted. And then when I would go and say, this is what you wanted, but you need to understand if this is what you want, then these are the different types of ordinances you're looking at to enact what you want. And they were like, oh, I don't know if we want to do that. So it really is important to think not just the broad, but how are we going to, as a council, actually implement what we want? Because there may be some things that are going to make We're going to be pushing the envelope on some things, maybe, or not, but just know that it's the whole package.

Mayor, along with that, so you understand, sure, Jared and I have, you know, personal opinions maybe about something or how something works. But at the end of the day, what we really care about as staff, ultimately to the council, to help you get the document you need is not that we may have a suggestion of language or an idea of something and that you adopt it that whether you do or not is okay With us, what we worry about is you adopt something. And then to your point, a year later, you come to me and say, Gary, when we were talking about this and we adopted it or looked like we might adopt it, why didn't you tell me that this could be a consequence or these are the foreseeable consequences? results of that policy. That's what keeps us up at night. We want to make sure you have as complete information as you possibly can to understand it before you make a decision.

So this is pretty high level though, right?

Yes.

Because I mean, I'm going to use an example that we're all familiar with, right? We had our general plan and then we had our state street master plan, right? The State Street Master Plan had, the general plan had some great ideas floating up here, right? The State Street Master Plan came down with some specificity that our residents were not pleased with when we discovered what was there. Our businesses were not thriving because they weren't allowed to remodel to the extent they wanted to. There were some unintended consequences that were discovered. from that so what you're saying is hopefully you guys will identify to us if we give you a direction you'll be able to say to us this is a perceived unintended consequence you might want to think about yes that kind of is that a good summary of what you're trying to say here

Yeah. And if that comes up to you as you're reading the draft stuff, yeah, if you bring that up, it's not going to bother us because we might not have thought that. If you see it and are concerned about it, definitely bring it up. The only thing I'm afraid of is an echo chamber. I don't want to write in an echo chamber. I'm somewhat in love with my own thoughts about things. I need other people to be backed out. It's better that way.

It's kind of a planner thing.

Yeah, it's probably a personality flaw we all share. All you can do is be aware of it.

We sing in the shower, right?

We talk a lot about the Orem being like this big ship, and you as a council decide which direction we want this big ship to go. You don't really need to worry about all of the little gears and mechanisms in the ship that it takes to turn to get it in alignment with your direction. You just need to tell us at the same to go that way and we'll start moving that way and getting everything in alignment to go. In the meantime, we'll also tell you, OK, if we do go this way, there's a big rock out there that we might run into. Or, hey, we don't have something down in the boiler room needs to be fixed and really help us do what it is that you want to do. And we don't. We don't need you to necessarily care about those details because we'll do it. You just need to have trust in us that will tell you these things. And we don't want to get going down. It's like, why didn't you tell me that this would cause this big thing? Well, you never asked. You know, we never want to do that. And so we're not going to get offended. We just want to make sure the council, because ultimately this is your document. It's not staff's. It's not the planning commission. It's your document.

Any other questions or thoughts, Council?

Mayor, can I make a comment?

Oh, we've got, yes, the voice. Yes.

Thanks. Jared, this is Quinn. Just really grateful that you're taking the time, and I know this takes a lot of thought and staff time to make progress on this, and it's overdue, so I'm just really grateful for that. Question and comment. So my question is, how long do you anticipate this draft being? I know we're trying to keep it pretty general, but what's your target length? And then secondly, I just encourage you to make sure that the Planning Commission is involved every step of the way. I know that they may not be appropriate drafters but i i do think that you know we've we have uh appointed them because we revalue the way that they think about some of these broader principles and and i know they don't always agree with each other but that kind of conversation i think will just be really rich and will be helpful for me as i review it as a city council member so that's my encouragement thank you

I don't have a page number target really in mind. Under 1,000 pages. Under 1,000 pages. Bring it down. Yeah, less than a lot of – so a lot of the – I think I would best answer that by saying that a lot of the stuff, a lot of the page count that comes from A great many general plans comes from data tables and things that we are not going to have. New versions of for this, because we're not hiring outside consultant work on it because it's an update and we're and we're going in a direction to say, we're, we're looking at. For example, we're not going to have a housing element that has a whole bunch of data in it because we would rather in the future have a housing. plan done, housing study done, and that will contain the data. So the page count will be lower than a lot of general plans currently. We're not going to be in the hundreds of pages.

And structurally, we've talked about taking some of that data in the tables that kind of get in the way of a good logical linear read of the general plan and taking those out of the general plan text and putting it into an appendix of the general plan. So if you want to dive into some of that data, you can, but it won't interfere with a good, more in-depth executive summary of things. So there's not a specific number, but know, very, very readable that you could read quickly without getting bogged down in tables. It's there. You don't have to slog through it to get the high-level concepts that we're talking about.

So, are you going to be adding any additional elements to it since it's an update?

That's a great, great question. As the planning commission, as we started this process, they did identify a couple of things they wanted to add or change. There are two chapters currently for Public facilities and parks and recreation, they wanted to combine those, so they're losing one in that way. They did want to do, and I'm still looking at a short implementation chapter at the end. Those would be the two main additions. There would be a short sort of implementation strategy chapter that says, here's all your information, all your objectives, all your goals. Maybe they get put in 3 tiers of levels of importance and you'd have to organize those into the 1st, you know, the 1st, most important ones are these the next and these just real simple. But those would be the only 2.

And as staff, we like that implementation idea, because we have these big. Broad principles that look out over the city and its development. There are so many things to look at. We would like to, at some point, have some sort of prioritization of what should we work on next. The general plan isn't the end. It's actually the beginning of things that we're doing. So, you know, an example of that is like... We have the general plan. The general plan has some high level talking points about parks and creating community and things like that. Well, the council took that and went down the next step and did the Heart of Orem. And so we've got that plan now. And so now we're taking the Heart of Orem and we're looking at, OK, what are some actionable things we can do on that to partner with UVU and get things done in the community that's what i'd see the general plan doing is now like a housing state i'll let you in on my bias i'd like to see uh one of those uh next steps to to be is to be able to get our arms around housing is to actually have a good housing study done and so that could be in the implementation section okay and then wherever it would write for the council It might be really high. It might be mid or low for the council. But then it helps us organize our work on making sure we're getting the council priorities taken care of. Because we're trying, as you have a retreat, we try to go to a retreat, take notes about your priorities, what you're trying to accomplish, try to now get that in the line. Everything that we do are general plans and other plans in alignment with those things. So I think the implementation would be a great idea.

Yeah. And as I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, that the state law says that really the only element that's required is the moderate income housing plan. Is that part of the general plan?

There are four.

Okay, so there are four.

You have to have a land use element. And that one we've got the most progress on. You have to have a land use element. You have to have a moderate income housing element, moderate income housing. You have to have transportation. No, I'm sorry. It's not true. You have to have a water conservation element now.

Oh, okay.

And that's why we did it. There was a deadline to get the water conservation element done.

I've already done some of these.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. There's one other one that I'm missing. It's not transportation.

I'm sorry to quiz you. I had a slide, but no. No, but that's the thing is they can create a general plan can, as I understand, could have anything in it. It can there's a bunch of options after that a lot of different options that a lot of times it's focused on land use only. Development only not not to make the make the plan bigger necessarily, but. But a lot of times it can go, some cities will just do the staff size or the size of the city. They'll just do the required elements and. And others can make them into whatever.

And we'll have several. We want there to be a transportation and economics.

It's not an active transportation plan, which is part of the transportation. Would that be a separate element?

It's a high-level sort of transportation element. And then that would refer to the master transportation plan and the active transportation plans. And those would be appendices.

So that would be under the implementation.

So kind of think of it like a... We will talk about parks and recreation in the general plan. But talking about parks and recreation in the general plan, does not supplant what Bryce is doing in diving into the more details of it. So we may have high-level principles in the general plan for parks and recreation, things that we want to accomplish. Once that's in there, I think Bryce was the last one done, 2021? 2021. Yeah, in 21. So we're not too far from doing an update of that plan. So in the general plan, it may just be a handful of pages talking about parks and recreation. So that the next time they update their parks plan, If we have a consultant or we do it in-house, one of the first things we do is, okay, what are the council's overarching goals for parks and recreation? And then take those principles and make sure they end up in that document. Similar like the slide Jared had on... We like connectivity of roads, pedestrian ways in the city. That's a good general statement to have. But when you now take a look at, okay, how do we really do this? A lot of some of that might be in the transportation master plan and in the active transportation part of the transportation master plan. But, you know, it doesn't mean every street, every time, everywhere has a bike lane and a pedestrian lane and three lanes of traffic. It doesn't mean that. It just means we like these things. Now come back as you do your more in-depth studying. How are you implementing these goals in a more specific context?

That's right. Thank you.

Any other questions can I ask 1 actually, just because I'm not sure I answered Quinn's. The 2nd, part of Quinn's question about involving the planning commission more as we go along and to that point you all as well. What I'm suggesting here is is work session updates. That number could be increased. We could do 2 of them. We could do 1 in September 1 October. We could do 2 in October 1 in September, whatever you all want. It's what it's how much you're comfortable. Taking up time with me here, so I know how, like, my children, my wife feel about that and it's probably.

I think you guys kind of answered that question. I mean, this is my perception. Planning commission has been working on it for over a year and we haven't made a whole lot of. Progress, so that's why you're making the recommendation of. Writing the draft kind of pulling it to staff for a more. Process, I mean, we're just to kind of pull it together a little more, a little, maybe a more focused focus. Yeah. So that will change. Compared to what was done last year in this, I don't know how much you've done this year, but last year, especially. But the points you're making here is in order to meet your timeline. Yeah. I guess I don't know. Are you saying in order to meet your timeline, these are the ones you've set up. This is what's going to help you the most to get the reviews of your draft.

I'm not sure that work sessions that like updating people in a quick work session would slow us down. If we want to have more involvement along that. So it wouldn't necessarily slow it down. Won't affect it. Just gathers more ideas.

It was just the whole, I mean, I saw some of those meetings and they came up with some great ideas last year, right? Some of those, but like you said, It was, I saw you guys kind of struggle to pull it down and to pull it into an active document. So it sounds to me like that's what you're saying is you'll give them the updates, but the.

The writing part of it needs to move forward.

Jared using this. line you've got on here there's obviously there's a difference between getting an update versus actual review right sort of workshopping it and having kind of a back and forth right yes that's that's kind of i support you guys in what you've presented here i think that's the best way to get it accomplished and we view this kind of like uh

Our version of the Declaration of Independence. And Jared is our Thomas Jefferson. We have a committee. We're talking about high-level principles. He's going to go out and do a draft. It will then come back for tweaking. Thank you, Aaron Burr. Yes.

Thank you. I nerd out on this because this is one of the things I love about planning is planning.

Mayor, do you mind if we ask Councilmember Quinn Mecham, did we answer your question or respond to your comment sufficiently?

Well, what I heard is that you have no idea how long it's going to be, and that you're going to take a first cut, but that you'll involve Planning Commission extensively along the way, if I interpreted that right. Did I get that right?

That's right, yes. The Planning Commission will get updates on their drafts.

Yes. You know, updates are great. I do think that, you know, bringing the planning commission as well as us, of course, into the process to get feedback rather than just be updated, I think is an important part of the process.

I just want to make sure it's not bogging it down. I just saw it happen last year. So I think they're telling us they're at a point now they need to move forward.

And this is good because I think to hopefully address concerns that I'm hearing with this is we do have some elements that are really, we think, pretty close, like the land use element. That's one of the state law required ones, and it's typically our largest one. That's very close. We could start, as we get chapters done, we could start sending those out to Planning Commission and Council for feedback on it while we're working on other things and incorporate it into the process. that we're doing here. That would be possible. So when we're updating them, it could be an update on, okay, yeah, we've drafted these two chapters. Here you go. Take a look at it. You can start that. And we're then updating on, we're working on these chapters, and we'll get back with you. If any issues come up, we can let them know. We can let you know. So we can really handle that any way you want. And it's probably the idea to go through this is we're kind of doing some of this concurrently. updating planning commission, giving them things. But we also want to make sure you're updated. And you know, rather than we get through, we're done with the process. And then here's this big document that's, you know, much more manageable. I keep telling Jared, I want it to be half of whatever we have now. And so how long is it now?

Give your page count on that. If it's half of what we got now, it's about 80 pages.

Because when, well, before y'all were here, the Worms General Plan was 15 pages long. That was the...

That's how I've always seen them too, is very broad, very flexible.

Yeah, it was back in the Bob Moore days.

Yeah, and we're trying to get more to that model that somebody who lives in the city or somebody who maybe wants to come in and do a business or develop can look at it and find a fairly small document that can give them a good sense of, okay, where does the city council really want to take the city? And so I'm looking for cutting in half at least what we have. But we can do this concurrently. I don't want at the end without any updates to the council. Oh, by the way, here's a big document. I'd like to do work with planning commission and the council at the same time.

Gary, some of this update or review or showing drafts, some of it could be addressed if there is something that we need to get clarity on, like a joint meeting or something as well. Sure. I'd like to have a joint meeting.

I didn't include a joint meeting in the timeline, but we could. I mean, this is not set in stone. I will not lie. Won't hold anybody to this. This is not a binding timeline. Though he does get offended over his timelines. I don't complain to anybody about it except Sammy on the bus. Sammy on the bus.

This looks great.

Thank you. And it looks like the next item on the agenda is yours as well.

I'll just stay right here.

Stay out? Well, 45 minutes presentation, 15-minute Q&A.

Do you want me to walk back to my chair and walk back up, or am I okay?

Yes, go walk back. Just don't unplug and replay.

He's walking back and coming up. If you remember last time we talked about detached accessory dwelling units that the state law changed and requires the city to go in and create an ordinance by October. that deals with detached accessory dwelling units. And so we actually took it to Planning Commission. They've made a recommendation and you saw we sent out a draft of an ordinance. They sent the ordinance out. We have August today and then we have August and we have, we're not looking for the council really to make a decision because there's some important issues in here to think about and look at until the last meeting of September. If we meet that deadline, we're in compliance with state law and we're not concerned. So really what we're here today to do is have Jared We sent you out some materials last time. You may have had a chance to look at it. You may not. Jared's going to walk us through now the ADU ordinance, not looking at a red line strikeout of anything, but just the concepts that it has in it. Of of what it's supposed to do, and there are some issues that we can talk about and get feedback on and then I anticipate at least 1 more work session where we'd come in and talk about this before we would be asking the council to make any sort of.

This presentation will include planning commission recommendations.

Yes. Yeah, this will be a review of what the Planning Commission recommend.

Thank you.

And then a little background information as well. So, as Gary mentioned, this is supposed to be adopted by October 1st. And this is specifically for detached accessory dwelling units. Right now, cities are required to allow accessory dwelling units. We call them accessory apartments, which complicated our lives a little bit because everyone calls them accessory dwelling units now, including state codes. We thought... We're leaving most of that alone. I think just for the goals of this change, we want to meet the requirements of state code, which is to adopt that detached accessory dwelling unit ordinance and keep the substance of what ORM has been doing for a long time with accessory dwelling units, which are called accessory apartments. Keep that intact. We haven't proposed a lot of changes there. In fact, nothing except reordering of a couple of statements and then calling them accessory dwelling units instead of accessory apartments for continuity. And then combining the regulations in one section so that it's easy to find as opposed to having accessory dwelling units or accessory apartments in one place and detached units somewhere else.

And we are suggesting let's change the name of an accessory apartment, accessory dwelling units.

It'll make our lives a little easier. That's what everyone calls it now, but we've more or less been calling them accessory apartments for a long time. So it'll probably be an adjustment for folks, but, you know, it's kind of where we wanted to go. The state code requires a couple of things. It's important to understand that because that's where we, as I said, we try to meet those minimum requirements of state code. We have to allow detached accessory dwelling units, which incidentally is something like this, just for purpose of complete clarity. It's an accessory dwelling unit. It's allowed on the same lot as this home, but it's not part of the home. The ones that we allow currently would be contained within the walls of the home, the accessory dwelling unit, the accessory apartment. This is an allowance that we're required to do for something separated from the house itself. So they have to be allowed on any single-family residential property that's at least 11,000 square feet or greater. That's the minimum. That's the bottom that we're allowed to go by the state code. We're supposed to make sure they comply with building codes, health codes, fire codes. And we have to allow for legally constructed accessory structure like a detached garage to be converted into a DADU if it can meet our setbacks and things that we impose. Those are really the only shall statements that are in the state code for this. there are a bunch of shall nots. We're not allowed to require them to have a conditional use permit. Then it has this one vague statement. We're not allowed to require setbacks from property lines or from a detached dwelling that make it unreasonably difficult to locate a DADU on a property. We're not allowed to require more than two onsite parking spaces for any DADU that's bigger than 650 square feet. And we're not allowed to require any more than one for a DADU that's less than 650 square feet. We're also not allowed to require design standards that would be in conflict with 102618, and that's the pretty code statements. We're not allowed to require certain materials or certain roof pitches or things like that. So those are kind of the may nots. And all of these codes that we're proposing or all these changes we're proposing are trying to meet those requirements. The first part, I think we think about this, what's been drafted in three parts. The first part of it is a purpose statement, a quick purpose statement, and some definitions. The purpose statement is where we have said a couple of main things that we want people to understand about accessory dwelling units in general, and D&D is new. You only get them on residential properties, and they're subject to the restrictions of this section. Okay. You have to say that to people, but you have to tell people. These are the codes for these things. And then only one ADU of whichever kind is permitted in addition to one primary dwelling. So what we're saying is explicitly you can have a house here and you can have a detached ADU, either requirements, or you can have one inside your house, an ADU inside your house. But you cannot have an ADU inside your house and a detached ADU. You get one or the other, not both. Does that make sense? So we put that right at the beginning in the purpose statement, kind of the opening statement.

Can I ask it?

Yeah.

It's got to be an email from somebody or a text from somebody whose neighbor has an RV in the backyard as they're dwelling in it.

Yeah.

Does that need to be spelled out specifically or is that referenced somewhere else?

It's spelled out specifically by the building codes. This part where they have to comply with building health and fire codes, you can't legally live in an RV in your backyard because it's not hooked up to utilities. It's not on a permanent foundation. So it doesn't mean it for that reason. You don't actually have to say, thou shalt not live in an RV in your backyard. The health and fire and building codes already tell you you can't. So, good question. And people do that. People want to move tiny homes in. And that's probably fine under these kind of codes.

Short-term rentals.

Yeah. And you could do short-term rentals. Let me just, as long as you brought it up.

Well, I said that. Yeah. Don't say that.

This proposal, just so, you know. And then the commission and staff are very much aware that are, I think. This proposal dealing with the detached sister going units does not deal with whether you can use 1 as a short term rental and the default is the default and we haven't tried this.

So we're going to take all that. I'm going to set it over here for tonight.

It doesn't have just talk about. Detached if it happens that you wind up being able to do them. On properties, then they would be eligible in the perhaps, or you could restrict them from us. It just depends. We're not treating that in this proposal. Okay. Part of this draft. Does that make sense? I felt like it was the wrong time to make a decision on that. We wanted to get it done in time for the deadline. So we figured. We did have to make a few definition changes, and following closely on the heels of this ordinance is a kind of an omnibus definitions change. I was trying to encapsulate it in the code, but we're going to do another... on the heels of this that will change all of the definitions to match all over in the code. So wherever it says accessory apartments in the code in other places for code enforcement and things, it'll now say accessory dwelling. Changes like that. They won't have any substance, but they'll make the definitions match. These are the ones we felt like we needed to define so that people would understand. An accessory dwelling unit is a single family dwelling that is subordinate to the primary dwelling on the same lot or parcel. So you can't have an accessory dwelling unit that's accessory to nothing. It's got to be Accessory to a primary dwelling. A primary dwelling means a single family detached home that's permitted by the zoning on the lot or parcel where it's located. So what that means is that if there's a leftover house in a commercial zone, for example, a single-family home, legal nonconforming on a commercial property, we would not further entrench that nonconforming use by saying, oh, go ahead and have an ADU there. You wouldn't be allowed to do one because you're supposed to not be doing a house there eventually. So only where it's allowed by the zoning. The third as attached accessory dwelling unit is what we are currently calling accessory apartments. An accessory dwelling unit that is contained within the footprint of the primary dwelling or is attached directly to it. And fourth, the detached dwelling unit is an accessory dwelling unit separate from and subordinate to the primary dwelling on that lot or parcel. And then again, here in that definition, Mayor, to your point from earlier, such a dwelling must be placed on a permanent foundation and connected to all utilities. Part two, that's the first part. The second part of it is the regulations that we already have. We're moving them from where they are to the new section that we're proposing so that they can be found easily. So that whole section will look like a big strikeout. But fear not, it's just getting transferred over to the new portion. Right now, and this wouldn't change, attached ADUs that we currently call accessory apartments would not be allowed in R5 or PRD zones. They're just not allowed in those smaller zones, smaller lots, things. Owner occupancy is a requirement. They're located inside the footprint of the primary home or attached to it. Parking gets required for it in addition to the primary dwelling's parking. So under our code, you have to have two parking spaces for your primary dwelling. You have to provide parking for your accessory dwelling as well. Utility meters have to be in the property owner's name. You can have a second meter for water on your accessory dwelling unit, on your accessory apartment, but that meter has to be in the property owner's name. That keeps people from... from head faking us and running duplexes instead of owner occupied accessory dwellings. Entrances to the ADU aren't supposed to be on the same facade as the entrance to the home or facing a street. And permits are required for the work and you have to get a rental dwelling license when you're done. We track all the accessory apartments in the city, accessory dwellings.

Okay, can I ask that facing the street thing? So the stairway cannot go down from the street side?

Well, if you're at the basement entrance, it should be around the side or around the rear.

Well, I'm sorry. So if the entrance is on the side, do the stairs have to go down from the back or can they go down from the front?

They could go down from the front. As long as it's on the side facade, the stairs could go down.

So facing the street just means on the same side as the front.

You want it to be on the front side. It makes them look more like a duplex. The point of that is to make it not look like a duplex.

Go back to that picture of the cute little house. This one?

That is cute. It is cute, right?

Yes. So in theory, this would not... I guess this foreground is the detached ADU.

Yeah, this is the detached.

It shouldn't face the street.

No, this shouldn't face a street. This entrance here could face like this to a backyard, or it could face the house. It could face into this backyard. But the street is out in front of this house, and this shouldn't be... This shouldn't... Well... That's a good question.

Why is it materially important? Because it looks cute either way.

It is cute either way. Someone's in there writing a children's book, for sure. That is a small... A cow meal or something, I don't know. But this is... We also don't allow them, so we'll get to setbacks and things, but we wouldn't want detached accessory building units to be between primary dwelling on the street. So they'd be in the rear yard or the side yard. So in the rear yard, it doesn't matter. It can be facing the street, but it can't be like, what we mean is if this is, again, this is not for the detached, but for the It says detached up here. I'm sorry. That's just the titles and slides. These are the codes for the accessory dwelling units that are part of the house. So when you're doing an internal accessory dwelling unit, like if your accessory dwelling unit was inside this house and this didn't exist, we wouldn't want the entrance to the accessory dwelling unit to be facing this street.

That makes much more sense.

That makes sense. So it's partly confusing because I've got these detached pictures. I wish we could say it has to just say, if you can move in here.

Wait, let's just say that. It has to look like this picture.

Yeah, you'd have something that says, it looks as though a children's book would be ready. It's appropriate.

We'll let you build it.

Probably 10 dash 20 dash 18 would not.

That was written exactly to prevent that. Yes. Sorry. um so yeah it couldn't be and we do require rental dwelling licenses um and we'll come back to this if we need to put the same facade issue that's that's where we're at with that we require permits for the work and we require licenses for these that you have to take out a license to run it as a landlord so um detached adus this is the third part so all those things we brought them back over we didn't change anything about those codes they're all still the same In this, in this proposed draft for detached, that's the 3rd section of the proposed ordinance. They have to be permitted, like we said, for lots, at least 11,000 square feet for the sake of numbers. For those of you that are numbers people, there are 5800 single family residential properties. In Orem city that are currently at least 11,000 square feet. So not a small number. Not all of them will qualify in other ways. Setbacks might keep a few from working, but that's the plan. Size restrictions. We have proposed a minimum of 200 square feet. That lets us for sure require building permits. And then never allowed to be larger than 50% of the primary dwelling. Again, the point is to keep it subordinate to the existing home. So if you have a little tiny home and you build a gigantic accessory dwelling in it, it feels a little wrong. Yeah. So nothing would keep you from... From building, like if you have a little tiny house that was way back on your lot, grandma's old farm lot or something, and you wanted to build a big new house in the front and make the back one your accessory dwelling in it. If it met by happenstance, our codes would say no to that. But the purpose is that it has to be no more than 50% of the size of the main house. Lot sizes, we were proposing, and the Planning Commission has forwarded a recommendation proposing this, lot sizes between 11,000 and 13,000, for all intents and purposes, square feet, 850 square feet for the maximum size for the accessory dwelling unit, and no more than two bedrooms. For lots between 13 and 15,000 square feet, 1,000 square feet for the ADU and no more than two bedrooms. And the truly large lots, the 15,000 plus, 1,200 square feet for the ADU and three bedrooms. We picked these numbers out of a lot of different codes that we'd read. A lot go up to 1,200. You see a few that are 1,500 and that kind of thing. But mostly they cap out at about 12. And a lot have 650 square feet as a maximum for smaller lots. We're going to take 50 on 11,000 just because there are so many house plans for accessory dwelling units that are about eight. There's just a lot. So that's where we came up with those numbers. And we don't have a lot of time for a whole bunch of research before October. So great. He's in. Height restrictions. Maximum height of 20 feet for a pitched roof ADU structure. 14 for flat roofs. Not to be taller than the primary dwelling. We would allow loft spaces under the code that we proposed, but not more than 20% of the interior of the house. Because enterprising people will just make a loft that goes all the way to five feet over here. A little stairwell going up and make themselves a second story that's not really a second story. So we defined... Loft spaces. And then no exterior balconies. Because, again, this is the intent of a detached accessory dwelling unit or the value proposition of it is that it adds another dwelling on a property without truly affecting the residential character of the place where it is. And kind of undermine that with balconies or sub-exit are too close or what have you. So with that in mind, let's talk about setbacks. From a primary dwelling on the lot, we've proposed 10 feet. There was a lot of talk at the planning commission about six feet or whether we were 10 feet or six feet. And I asked Emma to do us some, and she has done for us some examples. And six feet was in her brain. So they all show accessory dwelling at six feet behind a house instead of 10. We'll get to that in a second. The actual draft says 10 feet. I'm going to get that out of the way now when it's as confusing as possible. Sorry. 20 feet from any dwelling on an adjacent lot. And if somebody happens to have a non-conforming house that's real close and 10 feet wouldn't keep you 20 feet from that, then this rule would kick in and keep you at least 20 feet from their house. 10 feet from any interior property line, a side or a rear property, and 25 feet from any public or private street. And then again, we talked about this a little bit, but not to be located between the primary dwelling and a street of any kind, a corner side, double frontage lot, or in front of the house, just because the house is a long way back. You still have to be behind the house. And again, because the code requires it, state code requires it, we've got a section saying you can use an existing accessory structure that can be converted or remodeled, meeting our setbacks and our other height requirements and things like that. Any questions about setbacks? We can come back to them.

I've seen a few properties in ORM where they have... attached unit, whether it be a shed or something that goes right up to the fence and goes, and you showed it in your, from your first pictures, it goes to the property line. A lot of cases that doesn't make sense, but there may be some cases where it does make sense and ways to work with those.

We'd have to look at them. I don't know. And we can talk more about that as we look at the examples that Emma prepared for us, too. But it's a good question. Right now, our accessory structure, so like if you have a detached garage, you can be very close to your property line with a detached garage. We propose that 10 feet is a minimum just because it feels like a dwelling that someone lives in being close to your property line. It's different than their garage where they keep their lawnmower and stuff. But we can talk about that more. It's a good point. A couple of quick things about parking and other things before we get to the examples of what these might look like in real life or at least where they'd be located. Parking needs to be located. We kept these from the existing accessory apartments code that we have. We just mirrored that. Located behind the front setback. So front yard driveway spaces like here, you couldn't say, well, I've got my parking from ADU. You have to provide it like around the side of the house or something. So it's specific and it's truly used for the ADU as opposed to The homeowner living here is going to have his car parked in there and let the ADU occupant be parked in back of his car. That just guarantees they're on the street. So we require them to be behind driveway or outside of the driveway. One additional space. This is right out of the state requirements. One additional space for any ADU that's 200 to 650 square feet. Two additional spaces for anything bigger than 650 square feet. Now these slides that I'm going to show you in a second. Again, utility service, this is another thing that we're allowed to do. We're allowed to review the utility service availability and make sure that it can handle, that our water and sewer and things can handle having another unit here. It's not usually a problem. ADUs have become prevalent enough that whenever we do updates to water, things that are usually the consultants are always asking, you know, what's allowed in these areas, et cetera. And because accessory farms have been allowed in for a long time. That's probably already been part of the iteration. But there might be those cases where we want to make sure that they can run water lines because maybe there aren't easements to get the water line back there. Maybe it doesn't work. We just want to make sure that's part of the review. And again, they're required to obtain permits for the new construction and get a rental dwelling license, just like interior accessory dwellings.

And then they'll have their own separate hookup charge, right? Like the apartment buildings.

Exactly. Let's see. Now, here's some examples. Emma pulled these lots at random, just looking at aerials and then zooming in to see if it would meet our 11,000 square feet or larger, tried to get some different kind of lot configurations and different lot sizes, and then applied our proposed ordinance, the drafted ordinance, to these lots. So you'll see parking spaces, she tried to say where they could locate parking if they have room to do that, and the size that would be allowed based on the lot size. So based on this lot's size, Available square footage in the back after setbacks of 25 from the road, 10 from the interiors, and 6 from the house. Again, it should be 10, but 6 is one of the things we talked about. they would be allowed a 1,000-square-foot accessory, detached accessory dwelling unit, and they could site one there. So that's kind of the space it would take up in the rear yard and what it might be. That's a likely spot for them to put it. Does that make sense? I have five or six of these just as examples so you can consider.

That was kind of unique. That's a corner lot, right? Those are a little more complicated.

A little harder to do. We wanted some different kinds of ones because there's a cul-de-sac lot in here, too. So far in her random review, she has not found one that would not work, an 11,000-plus-square-foot lot that you would not site one. This is another one. This lot is 11,325 square feet, so it would get an 850-square-foot allowance for one. They might not take up the whole thing, but you could put a maximum-sized one there, and those are its setbacks.

What's the setback from the neighbor, the rear?

From here or here? This is 10.

Corner lot again.

It's showing 10.

This is another corner lot.

You got a corner here. So they're 25 from that corner side and 10 from the interior here. Total distance from here to the house. I don't know. This is a larger side yard. This home could be because it's a side yard. It could be located closer than that in other situations. In this particular one, it's not. And then again, parking, you're gonna see four on each one, or if it's a smaller one, maybe three, but two for the primary dwelling in the garage there, and then the driveway doesn't get a count. They'd have to pour a pad around the side here like that for the parking for the ADU. Here's the cul-de-sac lot. Again, they'd have to get creative with the parking. They could do them in tandem. They could just run a longer driveway or something, but they could do 1,000 square foot, one back here, meet those setbacks. And you can see kind of where it would likely put the unit.

Why are we using 1,000?

Because that's what would be allowed. This is a 13,000-square-foot lot. So to the draft that we currently have, you could do up to 1,000 square feet of detached accessory dwelling unit. You could do smaller. This is the maximum. This is the biggest one. This is the biggest one you could do regardless. Even if they had three times as much space back here, that's the biggest one they could do. Based on the draft.

I might have missed this before, but can you have tandem parking behind the house?

You can. Under state code, under that 1020, the one that doesn't allow us to do pretty, it also doesn't allow us to not count tandem parking for accessory. Good question. Tandem parking. Favorite target of planners everywhere. Not allowed. They don't let us target that anymore. We're discriminatory. Here's another cul-de-sac lot. Those should be the hardest ones to locate these on, generally speaking. And so far, not too bad. This is larger than 11,000 square feet, but not large enough to allow the 1,000 square foot maximum. So you get 850 square feet back here. But you could do up to 850 square feet back there and make your setbacks work the way that we have proposed them at 10 feet.

So are you saying that that is 10 feet from the house?

This around the house, just this gray you're seeing, is actually only six feet. If it were 10, it would still actually make it.

It still looks like clip the corner of it.

Yeah, it might. Building envelope. It might. And they would have to.

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding because that 10 feet looks about the same as.

It's 10 feet.

Oh, yeah. So you're saying the top red corner is six feet from the house?

This is six feet here, right here.

Okay, so that set back more than 60. yeah, this is set back more than 6. Sorry, I just couldn't.

Yeah, no, I'm sorry. That's that's why it's a little confusing because it's the 6 feet instead of the 10. It's actually the code says the code that we propose says 10. But we drew these at 6, just having confused ourselves talking about 6 versus 10.

Yeah, but the 10 is the property line. Yes. Because the logic of the 6 versus 10, why they 6.

It's a great question. Six feet is what you're required. If you want to build an accessory, a shed or a garage in your backyard, you have to stay at least six feet from your house. Wrote the draft saying 10, just to make it a uniform 10 feet from the house, 10 feet from property lines that are interior. And 25 from streets, but the commission had when they were discussing the draft, they talked about what's required for current, you know, 6 feet is 6 feet in their brains because that's what we require for accessories. And this is accessory in name, at least accessory. Well, so 6 feet is a pretty standard. If you're 6 feet behind the house, if you're separated 6 feet from your. dwelling, you don't have fire code problems with the garage or the shed or the accessory dwelling unit, frankly, anything that you're doing. That's why six. Ten, just to make it for privacy's purposes, I guess. But, you know, if you wanted to allow people to do six feet instead of 10 from their house to make some like if this one, for example, was 10 and it was just clipping the corner, six feet wouldn't clip the corner. If you want to make it more accessible to people, six is a reasonable standard to close. It's close to their house and lets them keep it close to their house and still get to do it without violating anybody else's setbacks.

I probably favor making it more flexible for the homeowner who has to live with the consequences of how far the place is.

To make decisions.

It doesn't impact the neighbors, I think. And that's my, I don't know when's the right time to say this, but for me, impact on the neighbors is key here.

Sure.

Because the tendency is, I'm going to tuck this as far away from me as possible, right? And yet, you're putting it closer to your neighbors, especially our weak neighbors. So you're saying right now on our commercial code, we have a one-to-one height ratio. So you're 10 feet away. You can't have higher than 10 feet. So I almost feel like we should put the same protection in here so that the impact goes to the person who's trying to gain the benefit.

For the primary dweller.

For the primary benefit. or dwelling because they're the one getting the financial benefit. They're the one, you know, it's on their property. So why are you infringing on your neighbor's privacy?

Sure.

I'm trying to put it as far back in your yard.

And we could, we could entertain that.

I'd like to see how you could make that fit with the law.

Yeah. I don't think it would be a problem with the law. We were allowed to regulate the height and things. It actually, I'm going to go all the way back to the writer's cottage. That's not real tall. You know, you could, even with that peak, that wouldn't be hard to cite. And still, you know, if you're... And I'm not... I completely agree with the thoughts there because the accessory dwelling units, especially detached accessory dwelling units, the whole point is for them not to be an impact to the character, right? So if they're maintaining that, anything that pushes them to be smaller or located more unobtrusively, that's good. The only thing I worry about is falling afoul of this right here, the unreasonably difficult. As long as it's not unreasonably difficult, then we're not going to have a problem with the state on it.

Would you do like a range?

Yeah, let me get back to the height. Sorry, range is a good idea.

Like range from property line, right?

Increased height as you're further from the property line.

Yeah.

Sure, absolutely.

Because we do that for our workers that are next to commercial. We use that as a protection. That's just standard planning protections. Sure.

we could absolutely implement something like that. Look what that would do. I don't think it would be a problem for the state code as long as it was, you know.

I would like to have you help me figure this out with not only height, but also, once again, I'm going to come back to this impact should be felt by the homeowner who is building it on their property. Their property should feel the impact more than the property to the side or behind them.

Sure.

And if you're pushing it clear back in the corner because we're only doing 10 feet, when they could put it within six feet of their house and still build it, then that gives them the impact instead of their neighbor. Because then if there's a baby crying in the middle of the night in that little detached ADU, they're gonna hear it more than their neighbor's gonna hear it, something like that. That would kind of be my thoughts on how do we make sure that we're giving the opportunity, but also protecting the next door neighbor from negative impacts.

Sure. The building height in the code here is, what, 20 feet for a pitched roof and 14 for a flat. So if you did the one-for-one, like you're talking about commercial zones, that would mean a pitched roof would need to be 20 feet from a property line, which now protects neighbors from that encroachment and would probably, in the code we have, 10 feet. Building code, you can't go below six, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. So the minimum we could go for an accessory structure would be six feet from the from a property from the existing home. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because then building code issues come in and I totally get that.

Yeah. And to me, I'm more comfortable with kind of that because once again, it should be not noticed by anyone. That's why the internal ADUs work out so well is because really, if you've got the parking, then you don't have the... And I do think ultimately, I think...

I'm reasonably sure that internal ADUs will also continue to be more popular. They're just generally easier to do. Although, if I'm wrong, the conversations that I've had with other planners is that the thing that's going to change all of this, or that's going to make that not the case, is the advent of these ADUs. Buy it on Amazon, have it crane-dropped into your backyard on a pad. Pretty easy. Plat it with something, and that's going to change all that. Stick building was much more expensive than remodeling your basement to make it meet building codes. But that's changing. So go ahead.

We have dinner ready for us and take a, but I don't know what the rest of your presentation. I want to make sure that we break in an appropriate point for a quick blessing on the food and then grab our dinner.

But this is as boring as this. So you can.

This is as good as it gets. I've asked council member if she would offer a blessing on the food.

And your Father in heaven, we're so grateful this day that we can gather together in this free country to have a meeting and discuss what's in the best interest of our city. We're grateful today also for the food, and we ask that you please bless it and bless us to have wisdom as we continue throughout this night. And we say this in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Amen. Thank you.

I didn't know if there was going to be like a time before you do an interpretive dance or... No, there's no dancing. Like that? Okay. That's on the agenda.

I'm not legally allowed to dance. Stop it.

That's part of the dance class.

I could take a break and grab you dinners if you want. Do you want to do that?

It's like five minutes. You don't want your sweater on anymore? It might be cool inside. We can take it with us.

Got it. How are you? You're kind. Thank you, sir. Let me get that for you. Yeah, there you go.

Please.

Oh, sorry.

We're going to wait for just a second for Jen to get back. Council Member Gale. I'll resume. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Just this, I have a couple more of these slides that show kind of where it is, but so I'll do that and then we can talk about what we want to come back with. Other potentials or other things we want to talk about. This is just another cul-de-sac lot where you could locate again 2 for the primary dwelling. We do 2 for this 850 square footer. You could put that back here without too much trouble. Here's a slightly more complicated cul-de-sac lot on a oligarch shaped lot. A little harder to locate, but they're still... We're at 6 from the house here. You can make it. At 10 from the house, probably shrink the footprint. But again, you can do these two parking spaces and maybe get two more. It might be a little tricky. You don't have to do a tandem, but... Make it work. So, the thing that we wanted to show was. Kind of exactly what came up was wanted to show the other houses around. So you have to imagine here's the house that I live in. I'm building this 1000 square foot guest house guest cottage accessory dwelling in it. This is this other person's house. So, relevant to that height discussion. This footprint is one thing, you know, taking up the space, but the height of it is a whole other matter. So that proximity is what, if I'm hearing you right, Linnea, is what's been concerning to you. The proximity of another structure here that's maybe taller and is much closer to this house, this has ever been. Not that they couldn't do an addition here or something and probably meet some setbacks, but still, this is a different separate guest house than we live in there all the time. So I think that's my second to last one that we can talk about different changes. And this is a little interior lot. It's a smaller lot, just barely over the 11,000. Well, 12,196, actually, it's a big house. 850 square foot. You could locate it back there. A lot of those Amazon deals I've been talking about are like 600 square feet. They're a little smaller than this. Anybody, any one of these could accommodate one of those. But again, you have proximity to this house here, back of the house. Right there, and this folk, this, this house here, this folks, these folks are going to see that more than than they would have otherwise. Those are my only slides about that. Relevant to the idea of height, again, this is not a real tall structure. So if we went a different direction on height and tried to look at kind of a graded height like Lenny was talking about, would you like to see what that might look like for these? We could take a look at that, bring it back to a work session and talk about gradating the height from relating it to distance from property lines, starting at that 10 and going up from there. Is that something that's interesting? I'd need to hear if that's something that we would like to see. So I think that's important. I would like to see that too. Again, looking at these, it probably won't be hard to accommodate. It's not going to keep anybody from getting to do it. Think, just looking at the kinds of units. If these are the kinds of units you want to see, we do get people coming in and calling and sometimes saying, well, why can't I have two stories for my... Accessory dwelling it, or why can't I put a unit over my garage or why can't I have this tall? Those are those reasons we don't want to intrude upon. Other other properties that are adjacent, they don't love that. They don't accept that necessarily. But if that's the goal. These kinds of units. If that's the goal, these can be easily accommodated with a graded height. Take a look at that. Is there anything else in there we ought to look at in bringing it back to you? And we'll bring, we'll come whatever other work session you're willing to invite us to and we'll talk about changes to it.

The height and the setback. If we could, even on the larger lots, kind of, so once again, they're going to try to put it in the very back corner so they don't feel the effect. I almost feel like find some type of a range that puts it closer to their house. I mean, maybe on the really big ones you say, you have to put it within 20 feet of your house and still have 40 feet behind you. You know, if there's a really big lot instead of just sticking it back there.

It's more like a range of, a location range.

Relative to the house.

Starting with the house is the point as opposed to the property. Yeah. Okay. You can't be located further than X from your house, for example.

Well, so I want to be flexible with that. But at the same time, that would depend on how close it is to the house behind. So if you're still 50 feet from the yard behind, then I don't care if you're 20, 30 feet from the house. But this is a challenge.

It is a challenge. But again, it's one that you can't really worry too much about it. Because the challenge I was going to bring up is the same one that happens with these distance rules, like 20 feet between. You can't locate an accessory structure closer than 20 feet dwelling on another lot. So somebody locates their garage, their detached garage, and then... Gentleman B from the lot next door wants to add on to his house. It's going to put it too close to this guy's garage. And I say, well, I'm sorry, you can't add on to your house. You can't really avoid that conflict. It happens. And we'd be in the same kind of conflicting area. Well, you got to, if you're not too close to this other house, we don't care until that other house adds on. So we have to really look at what they're able to add on.

So what you're doing, and that is such a great example, because what I see right now by basing the setback on the nearby dwelling, is you are taking their property away from their ability to develop their property away from them. So the person across the fence can develop their property. So that's why I think if we could do something more from a property line, basis that impacts the property that has has it then we're going to avoid those problems down the road because frankly i'm going to be a little miffed if i buy a house thinking that i'm going to be able to add on then the city comes and says oh by the way you can't because there's this 12 foot high dwelling you know 10 feet from your property line and you can't do that now we probably want to do something maybe we could look at doing something like a

we could base a requirement for an accessory dwelling unit like this, not solely on setbacks from property lines. It could have several setback requirements, right? Within a certain proximity to your primary dwelling, not further than, for example, and not closer than to a property line, and not closer than, not to the dwelling on the adjacent lot, but to the setback that's adjacent to it, to an adjacent setback line. So you add 10 feet to that line or something and say, their rear yard setback in the zoning is 25 feet. Your new place here could never be closer than 35 feet or 40 feet to that setback line. So that if they're not built to it now, but they want to in the future, they're not going to have a problem. See what I mean?

I would love to see what that looks like, because right now I'm a little confused by what you said.

So would I, and I think someone else should write it. Talk to Aaron.

No, I think we kind of get it, but you know what I mean? Like if this was the...

10 foot requirement yeah that you see the ordinance would say this 10 foot line back to the setbacks there yes not not not the location of the house but the setback that it could meet in the future right that's exactly right i think we could do that um the question becomes and we can take a look at how that would how that would pan out we'll do the same kind of random samples and if it looks like it would be what we only want to be careful of is that it not um not fall afoul of the writers is if they can't do a minimum 200 square foot type agent right i mean you can always go so that's the other thing that can always go small clients right it always goes smaller as long as we don't fall afoul of whatever unreasonably means here then we should be okay and i don't again i we had some conversations internally as staff about this kind of thing and uh just and it makes sense for the larger groups too we had them with the planning commission as well Bear in mind that there will be properties, as much as this opens up the ability for 5,800 lots that are 11,000 square feet or bigger. We haven't found any yet that couldn't accommodate one with what we wrote. And even when we change the writing and make it a little bit more restrictive, we still probably won't find a lot. But there will be some. But the requirement is not that every single lot be allowed to do a detached ADU. Remember that those that do wind up not being eligible for detached ADU, they're still eligible for an internal ADU. They're not barred out of the system. They just might not get to have it be, Stephanie.

That's what I'm going to say, because that house right there looks like a pretty big house.

You could definitely put one in.

If I was retired and I'm empty nest or anything and I complain that I need to get some additional income, I could easily do an internal ADU in that home, I'm guessing. I have three neighbors who have added them onto their homes, and we don't have that big of houses.

Yeah, exactly. And these are the maximums. If it didn't quite fit, you could always shrink that a little bit, do a different unit. There's lots of options.

There's an issue that I just thought of with all this, and it's one of these things that why we wish we had more time from the state. that we might need to think of is it has to hook into the utilities. So one reality of utilities, you could have a home like this and where the utility, I don't know if this is a through street or not, they may hook in to say sewer here. But the only place for this really feasibly to hook into the sewer might be out here. And because of the depth of the sewer, they may want to bring in a whole bunch of fill.

Don't go down that road.

And I think we probably need to look at some of those issues too, that they can't, a detached accessory dwelling unit cannot Raise the grade. Right. Yes. Existing grade.

So many phone calls right now on those other homes.

Yeah.

That's a good point.

Yeah. Because when you're putting it in the backyard, oftentimes, especially if you're on a corner lot, the nearest sewer that you can hook into may not be the one that the main home is, or it may because of topography at a different elevation. And that, you know, so that's something we're going to have to think through.

There's a natural place to add that language, Gary, where we create the required statement that you can, or the allowed statement that we review your utility access and stuff. We'll put it in there.

Great.

It's just hard to do. So I think you should go into timeout.

So you're seeing how the sausage is made at community development with me and Jared.

They sound in our team under 6 more months from the state to get it adopted correctly. We're going to swing and we might miss a little bit. We'll fix anything we can find in advance. Great. Because that's perfect. I hadn't thought of that at all. Well, let us take a look. If it's all right, then we'll go back and look at graded height, starting lower, at basing setbacks in three points from the house itself, from property lines, and from setback lines on other properties, and then grade issues too, Gary. I'll take a look at that. Any other things that we're missing in there, or does the other stuff work for you?

Chair, this is Quinn. I mentioned this last time when you talked about this, but it would just still be helpful for me to understand lessons from cities that have detached ADU ordinances on the books. I'm just really curious in our ability to estimate what percent of those 5,800 lots may be interested in this over time. Yeah. And I'm also interested in knowing what is our current number of ADUs, if anybody knows that.

Our current list of detached, we haven't had any, but the internal ADUs. That's a good question, Quinn. I should have that number in my head and I don't, but I'll get it. Thank you. And then we'd have to distinguish between ADUs that are licensed and legal and those that are just sort of. I don't like volunteers.

They're not licensed.

They're not as, I mean, I've administered, I think I mentioned this to the Planning Commission, I administered two codes previously that both allowed detached accessory dwelling units. I'd never processed one just because they're difficult to do. They're more difficult to do and they're more expensive. It is getting cheaper. But we had, you know, 30 or 40. We'd allowed ADUs, internal ADUs for 10, 15 years. We only had 30 or 40. Orem has a lot comparatively to other cities, I think you'll find. And most of the guys I've talked to in other planning departments that have allowed detached accessory dwelling units, they've got a few. They're not as prevalent as... As you'd think, but I'll check around.

I would be curious to know if those were built at the time of construction of the house.

Yeah.

Because we're built out. Ours is going to be all retrofit stuff, right? So that's a whole different.

A lot of new home designs come in ready-made for ADUs. They don't necessarily pull the trigger on doing it at first, but they build them. And their home builder, Ivory, or whoever's doing it is advising them, you want to do this because in the future you might want to do it. You know, might as well do it now. And they just don't pull the trigger on getting a license. And so we do these second kitchen covenants with them instead.

Well, I'm talking detached.

Yeah, the detached ones, see, they'll all be retrofitting.

I think, too, the Orms, I think if you were to go to Provo and look at some of their older neighborhoods, what do they have? Oh, good point, yeah. Over 100 years ago where they had the detached garage that was just naturally part of the house and the design there. We don't see that as much in Orem as the...

I'll check with 12. That's a good suggestion. Thank you. Anybody who wants a tour, I can take you on a tour of areas that have those. See a bunch.

I'd like one, Gary. No. Sounds good to me. OK, so we'll go back and look at those things and we'll bring it back. I'll get those numbers for you and we'll check around with the other cities, too. I didn't have a chance to do that yet, but I remember you asking about it. The ones that I checked with so far, no success.

I just think it will help us understand the scale of what we're dealing with. Yeah. you know, the potential impacts of some of these decisions. I think we're all sensitive to the potential for impacts, particularly as Linnea was mentioning on neighbors who don't have any choice about this. But if it's really going to be just a very small number over time, I think that might help shape the decisions we make.

Great. Thank you. I'll get that data.

Great. Anything else, Council? Thank you.

Yes, they're not related to this, but we told you we'd come back with some information. If you remember the council looked at an ordinance dealing with. The radius of noticing that we do we do a 1000 feet to go to 2000 feet. And the question was, what was that? Wasn't a big deal to quickly run the numbers on 2. projects that uh you just recently dealt with remember the needers property and the uh home at home home built yeah home built uh the noticing at a thousand feet that we did was 346 dollars if we had gone to 2000 and noticed it it would be 850. and then the property that the city owns That rezone at 1000 feet, the cost was $443. If we had done 2000 foot radius, it would have been $949. Like, about 500 dollars, it's slightly more than double. Okay, but the costs are relatively small and for better noticing and. Visibility and transparency for the community. I don't see a terrible. So 2,000 feet then. Yeah. And that's what we did. So just we told you we'd come back with those numbers and just. I appreciate that. You know.

All right. Gary, that's great. I'm delighted that those are small numbers. Does that include staff time as well?

That's just posted. But it doesn't less than an hour. Yeah. It's not a huge deal. Yeah.

I mean, having done that part of, having that chapter in my life, too, is being at that pay grade where I slap mailing labels on.

You should see us stuff envelopes. And stuff envelopes. I'm a good envelope stuffer. Something to see.

We bought a machine.

Get AI to do that. What is wrong with this?

It needs to do it. Yeah, we bought a machine that takes the flyer, stuffs it, folds it, and stuffs it into the envelope, and then we just mail it.

You name it the intern?

We affectionately call it Jared.

The worst part of it, of stuffing the envelopes, is actually how the machine is good enough that the worst part is putting little sticker labels on all the envelopes. The only thing worse than putting little stickers on the envelopes is trying to get technology to an actual mail merge. I don't believe it's ever been done.

Thank you. Grace is the queen of mail.

You can do that.

Come fix us. That's right. I just pulled up our 80s list from the website. There's 859 80s.

Oh, you could do. Oh, well.

And then in our last business, our building permit report for the month of, this is through May, out of 20 new single family homes.

Five of them are being built with an ADU in it.

That means that they applied for an ADU. The other ones could be fitted for one but not applying.

Correct. That means they're building them with the building. The home builders now design a home so that it either has the ADU in it when they build it or it can very easily be converted.

So that's what's happening behind me. All six of them have the basement entrance. but they haven't put in the dividing door. And that's easy to do. And then if they want to, they're going to put that door and then you have two spaces. All right.

Thank you. Thanks. Let's quickly go through our this evening's agenda. We've got several items under mayor's floor as referred by council. We have a presentation on national night out. And then we speech. That's the only 1 and then personal appearances. And then we have a consent items, which is with our approval to meeting minutes and then the appointment of Brian wait to the events advisory commission.

You will probably be here this evening. We could maybe. Acknowledge stands or something.

Then we have a scheduled public hearing. It's. A rezone that was before us a little while back, and the applicant asked if they could come back and put a road, Geneva Road, if you remember that. I do have a question about this that I'd rather ask you to hear than take up time out there. I'm right back here.

Sorry.

Okay. I'm looking at the PRD ordinance. And the PRD ordinance requires certain building materials and different front elevations. Yeah. Is that still within what the state law allows?

PRDs are exempt from that state law. Okay. And the PRD, when they're signing up for it, you can make them do whatever.

Okay. That was my question. I just wanted to make sure that.

Good question.

So it looks like they still need.

They need 60, 40% on the backside. They haven't shown that, right?

They haven't shown that correctly. So they'll put something on there. Okay.

All right. I'm so proud of them for getting over the road hurdle that I didn't want to hassle them too much about the 40% of the back. Yeah, that one.

I have a question on that. Okay. And probably here's a good place. Sounds like masonry fence between the commercial residential. I didn't really see that mentioned.

Yeah, that would be part of it. It's got to be part of the plan that they do. We'll get that in the site plan. It didn't show on the concept plan very well. Okay.

And then do we require CCM owners?

We don't, except that because the PRD will have the shared lot lines, they'll have the shared, they'll have the zero lot lines and they'll have the shared parking. They'll have to have one anyway, because they're going to share property for the parking. They'll have to have an H-8 at least that. Oh, yeah.

So they need to know that.

We're going to require it, but that's there.

And they'll be told that.

Oh, yeah.

They'll have that conversation then at the moment.

Yeah. Well, that's not surprising that they don't understand that.

Okay. And then my other oh, here's okay. So we had appendix KK that was farm Haven.

Well, it's actually a whole bunch of. It's all of appendix KK contains all of the PRD site concept.

Oh, okay. So I guess my question is, do you are you keeping the farm Haven iteration in there? And we're showing that it was replaced exit out.

We'll be there, but the 1 open farm haven should be X out because it won't be an effect.

But if someone wants to go back and reference it, they can go see. Yeah, they could find that. I had that question. Okay, last question on our visitor parking.

You said we're within 2.5 is required there 7.

Because I noticed from Western, from Farm Haven to Westerly Way, they reduced it by half.

The parking?

The parking.

From the, yeah.

The percent, the density is the same, but the parking's.

I didn't analyze the parking in Farm Haven.

So they were just adding more, it sounds like, on Farm Haven. Okay. So we're good on all of that.

It does meet the code requirements.

Thank you. Any other questions on this item? Any other questions on anything that's on the agenda? We do not have a closed meeting.

Well, we do have a closed meeting. Right. Well, we've got 15 minutes.

I think, well, that wraps up the work session then. We'll see you all in the regular meeting.

Thanks, everyone. Motion to adjourn.

Oh, and motion to adjourn. Motion to adjourn. Is there a second? All those in favor?

Thank you.

To make sure that we have at least one person online. I said I was

And I said, I.

And I said, I. I was. Me as well.

Oh, I said, you know, I'm sorry.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing.

It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing.

It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing.

It's a weird thing.

You know what? I think about Flash. That's going to be something.

That was a community action. I had flashes of it. It was never all fun because of the responsibilities I had. See, I don't have responsibilities now. You can have them as far as a CEO or something. You can have all the fun. You can have it. No fun for you.

That's right. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Test test test.

Well, I don't know what you think. Excuse me.

Just to tie that here. When we have three chairs. Sometimes we need them.

You can't really stick it there.

For ALJ, I just stick it under there because nobody sits there. Want me to roll it out? Hey, can I try it? Are you on Zoom right now? YouTube. Oh, wait, I'm getting a message. Oh, sorry.

Oh, sorry.

It's just my laptop. It's not coming to the speakers.

Yeah.

Maybe I have to change my feet. Spacewalking. Let me try this. No, you don't get anything if it's on press zone. Wait, am I on display? I don't think it works.

Thank you.

How are you?

What time are we at?

Can you hear me okay? Just testing. Yeah, we got you. Thank you, Ken, sir. I'll put it back on mute.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right, put me back on. We're going to try it again.

Keep it planted.

We're watching Taking My Son to Japanese Daycare.

Yes.

We're trying to think about the sounds. And right now it's not. I don't see it.

Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Yeah. Yeah. He keeps trying to run away.

Just meeting with him was really nice.

Did it. I think they're there. I think they're there. You just come up here on the bike. There we go. Those of you who want to do this, don't worry, they can take it. Just like

Come on little buddy. All right. Good evening. I'd like to welcome you to this evening's Orem City Council meeting. Tonight is still July 28th, as it was this morning, 2026. I called a meeting to order. I want to acknowledge that council members Kilpack, Muehlstein, and Mecham are joining us electronically. And so we do have everybody here this evening. Go ahead and have the invocation or inspirational thought by Mark McComber and Pledge of Allegiance by Kim McComber.

Our Father in Heaven, we are grateful for the great blessing that we have to live in this favored land. We are grateful to celebrate this year, the 250th anniversary of our founding. We are grateful to Thee for raising up our founding fathers and You established liberty and freedom here. We pray that God bless us in our efforts to keep this republic and to keep our freedoms and make the future bright for the next generation. We are grateful to celebrate this month as well the pioneers who came and sacrificed and built a wonderful society that we benefit from. We are grateful for those who have served the city of Orem and those who serve now and pray that thou would bless them in their deliberations. And we pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you for the invocation and for leading us in the pledge. Appreciate it. All right, Council, we have one item under Mayor's Report and items referred by the Council, and it's a presentation on National Night Out. Our presenters will be Lieutenant Blake Fann and Cameron Wilson. So turn the time over to them.

There we go.

Thanks for having us back. I still don't like speaking in public.

I was very excited. We're just here to give you a little presentation and a formal invitation to our National Night Out event.

So yeah, National Night Out, as you can see up there, the purpose is to enhance the relationship between the community and law enforcement. It's a chance for us to get together and have fun with the public and let them interact with us, us interact with them, and just have that rapport, that fun time.

It happens all around the country on the first Tuesday in August. Orem does it better than anyone else.

We're biased, of course. We're heavily biased, but we're right.

So it doesn't matter. This is also our formal apology to the Parks Department for ruining your grass last year. It won't happen again.

Yeah, there's no foam gum.

We used our fun little foam machine. We thought it was great. They had to re-sod, and we had no idea. So not happening again, I promise.

We killed the grass, for sure.

It's next Tuesday, August 4th, from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. in the City Center Park. You see, look how happy Blake was right there in his element, just having fun.

Super fun. So, yeah, some of the stuff we have planned. Again, we're going to have a dunk tank. We've got the swap vehicles, food trucks, fingerprinting. We have a helicopter. Is it a Blackhawk? It is a Blackhawk this year. Okay. We're going to have the drunk goggles. The K-9 team will be there. We are going to crush cars again. Face paint, nine square, all that stuff up there and much more. We do have a bunch of other community partners that will be there as well. with booths, handing out stuff and interacting with the public as well.

Yeah, you can come dunk an officer. I love that picture. Lieutenant Giles' face is just...

I did that last year, and if it's over 100 degrees like it's been, I will be getting in there again.

A couple years ago, they complained because the water was too cold. So the fire department's coming early so the water can heat up with the sun so they'll have a nice little bath. Oh, my goodness.

I've done it. I've done a dunk tank before, and, no, it was bracing. There's nothing like that little tiny seat. Just go, boop, and then you're toast. It's fun. It's refreshing. It's very refreshing.

We have some awesome community partner booths coming this year. We have a very supportive community. They love to be involved with things like this. It's a pretty stacked list. They're all going to do their own activities and just get out there with the public. And because ours is the best, we have a bunch of outside agencies that choose to come to ours instead of neighboring cities. So we've got Highway Safety, UVU, BYU, UTA, National Guard, and the Department of Commerce also coming this year for us. Awesome.

Absolutely. And then you can see the list of community partners, and that's not all of them. I think we ended up with 26, 25 or 26 that committed. And so this is everyone's official invitation, August 4th.

And it seems like there's some fun little giveaways that these community partners have. Yes, they all bring Nintendo. The guy for Nintendo was like, I'm going to set up some gaming consoles. We're going to give away this and this. They're so excited. So we've got some really stellar community partners that love to be there and support. So it'll be a good time. Do you guys have any questions or anything you need from us?

It's a great event. I remember attending last year and I'll be there this year.

I do have one ask. I'm wondering if you could reach out to Wasatch Mental Health. that has counselors in some of our schools. I was in a meeting with the new school district and there were some counselors there that would had some of their students that were afraid of the, our police were typically afraid of the police, the uniform. So I don't know if we could maybe invite them, you know, to, to, Come see our officers in this great environment. You guys are always very friendly, very kind, very fun. So they can play volleyball with y'all and.

get you get you in the dungeon so that would be maybe an ask we touched base a couple weeks ago at the reading with police event and wasatch behavioral is coming and setting up a booth and has sent it out to their clinicians to invite their oh thank you you're already on top i was going to say we chatted about it the little behavioral health specialist in me was so excited to merge those two worlds so it was a great idea perfect so thank you for doing that no problem anything else

Anything else, Council? Anything else that was online or virtually? Guess not. Thank you. We'll see you next Tuesday. The next item on the agenda is our time for personal appearances. Time has been set aside for the public to express their ideas, concerns, and comments on items not scheduled as public hearings on the agenda. Those wishing to speak are encouraged to show respect for those who serve the city. Comments should focus on issues concerning the city. And those wishing to speak have signed up already, and I have the list here. And so we'll go ahead and start with the public comments. The first is Chris Hammond, and after Ms. Hammond, Rennie Reeves. Welcome, and thank you for your email. I'll let you know I received your email. Thank you.

I want to take a little bit of a different take tonight. I am grateful to live in America where we have freedom of speech. We have the opportunity to do what we're doing here tonight. And I just wanted to give a little bit of background. In my 40s, I was left with four children to raise on my own. And my father encouraged me to invest in real estate. And that is what I have done. And as I've looked at what we're doing and how things are moving along, I want to express the fact that the police department is trying to build bridges. And I'm concerned that we're making walls in the neighborhoods by saying that things are not right. You can't do this at your property. And I just want to deal with things that are true. So some of the comments have been, we have short-term rentals, so we can't have kids in school. Well, there is nothing. There's no correlation between that. The reason that we're decreasing the number of kids in school is because my grandkids don't want to have kids. They don't want to spend the money. They don't see this as a thing to do. And it's not just here in Utah. It's across the nation. I, as a real estate agent, will look and say affordability, which we talk about all the time. We can't afford it. We can't do this. And so I recommend that someone build a home and have an apartment so they can afford to be there, whether it's a young family or whether it's a senior citizen, that that's the way you can stay in a home. That's the way you can have property. And I think we need to look at what are the critical issues and the legal things. We have personal property rights, and we want to look at those. And the Constitution says we are, as a government, supposed to protect the people. We're not supposed to oversee them and tell them how to do things. And I hope that we'll consider that. It is important that... We look at the consequences of making false statements, and I don't think anything has been said about people coming forward and saying, that kid was in my neighborhood, and they came across my fence and were in my driveway to get their ball, and so that's offensive, and I'm going to call the cops on them. And we've got to do something to say you can't falsely report an infringement on someone's rights. and have no consequence for that and do multiple multiple where the police are being called and there's nothing to stand up for that. There is no correlation between short term rentals and housing availability. 185 homes in Orem are available. Over up to 600 rentals are available. Having the 30 or 40 short term rentals that are standalone homes, on the market is not going to change that and not change any of those kinds of things. I can go on and on. You guys have received my emails. I hope that we can come to something where we build bridges and we have neighbors that enjoy each other and can come to some kind of a compromise on how we deal with our neighborhood. Thank you. All right. So can I ask, Chris, are you sending your emails to me?

No. You're not? No.

All right, thank you. All right, Ms. Reeves, you're up. And then after you, Keith Walker.

Hi, my name is Reni Reeves, and I live in South Orem, just off of 2000 South. About a year ago, I came to a city council meeting and expressed concern about crossing 2000 South. Since then, you guys have put in time and effort and getting a crosswalk installed. My neighbors and I feel a lot safer. Cars stop if they see us waiting, which didn't happen before. My neighbors have told me often how grateful they are. I wanted to come to this meeting to tell you thank you for listening and taking action. It's made a big difference to my neighbors and I. Thank you guys so much.

Thank you. Yes, go ahead. Rami, you have grown like a foot since last year. I'm so happy. I just want to, for those of you who are new on the council, she got a petition in her neighborhood. She brought it very professionally and presented that to the city council, and you are just an example for all of our residents to come and advocate. So thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Up next is Mr. Keith Walker, and after him, Katie.

Thank you Mayor and City Council for letting me address you this evening. I will touch base on several items or issues that are all intertwined and need to be addressed by you to keep Orem City, Family City USA to be proud of. The city is currently paving streets in North Orem which we are very grateful for. at a great cost to the city. The issue is traders parked along the street that have not been moved, that have been there for five months or longer, that have been paved around and leaving an incomplete and a poor-looking job. I have a car parked across the street from me now that's not been moved for three months. My best guess, it will not be moved unless we call somebody to tow it. But we'll address that.

But it'll be paved around probably again sometime later this week.

The underlying issue in this issue and some of it is in a two-block area that I live in by four blocks long, area of six square blocks, I have three sober living rehab homes, one Airbnb, 11 houses with apartments not legal in the city, renting rooms and houses and basements. No private entrances, no kitchen, just renting rooms. I have a neighbor that has seven cars at the home all the time. They're decent neighbors, but it's obvious they're not just a family with seven cars. The question is, what are we going to do about these issues that are destroying the appearance and backbone of the city of Orem and the family city USA? I also have another kind of a pet peeve in my back for years and years. I have the duplexes and fourplexes in Orem City. with these other things are mentioned are an issue. I have family members that are involved in these, and I have a 92-year-old dad that will not let me help him with his apartment half the time because of his stubbornness and want to do it himself. But the issue I have is these fourplexes and duplexes are all over the city. They're income-producing properties within the city. The city should require these properties, which tells many families, to be taken care of by their landlords, not just called... called on to rent and gain income from with no obligation to their tenants no lawns just wheat patches junk yards junk areas and i know some of this is the tenants that they have to deal with all of the items concerned can all the items committed on this evening comment on this evening or income producing properties or businesses in one way or another. Their owners only care about their dollars, no return on investment to the city or no return to the community. The families are forced to live in conditions that are not the best, and some of it's the tenants' problems. I encourage you to be careful what you do over the next several weeks. These businesses in the city generally become a big eyesore to the future of the city that everyone is... preaching for better housing options because long-term they are not. And there's areas in the cities in Provo, Vineyard, American Fork, that you can go find with housing and cars and stuff all over that you can't get around. And I just encourage you to be careful what you do over the next few months.

Thank you. Mr. Walker, would it be okay if we had one of the staff members contact you about your concerns specifically?

I would like to do something to try to help some of that. We try to be decent neighbors, but we don't want to complain about some of the issues. But we would like to try to help some of it. Thank you. Okay. Mr. Bybee, would you work with that? Thank you.

All right, Katie is up, and after Katie is, I think it's John. So, welcome.

So, my name is Katie, and I just wanted to address the short-term rental issue as well. What's your last name, Katie? It's Brooks. Brooks? Yep. So... I'm going to take a more personal take on it. And I hope you guys all forgive me. So two years ago, we had to evacuate our home because we had a high velocity rainstorm that hit the back of our house. And it was mitigated improperly. So it wasn't the mitigation area. It wasn't sealed off properly. So it ended up spreading most for account. Throughout our whole entire home, I have asthma and mast cell, and my son does as well. After they had taken all the levels, it was twice the level of what was considered high, and we were asked to evacuate our home. I, on a very practical note, natural disasters happen to all of us. Right? So what I'm asking you guys to do is just look at everything on a very practical note. We ended up moving 10 times in 7 months as we kept waiting for the insurance company to. Hopefully get involved. Having local Airbnbs provided to keep the community. We have three children. They were 11, 12, and 13 at the time. And by having Airbnbs in the community, we were able to keep our kids at the local school. We didn't have to move up to Salt Lake while we were doing the mitigation and the rebuild. Everything's done now. Literally, it's taken us two years. We just finished our kitchen this last week. I just want you guys to take a closer look, because even my son, he has a couple of friends where they also had to move for... Several months out of their home, too, and by getting rid of all the Airbnbs, you are taking away access to actually local or residents that need to be able to access the schools that need to be able to access the help. My son has myself like he in his 504 plan that he has to have. An air filter system in every single room, because when he has a reaction, it can last up to 72 hours. So basically what mass cell is, is you have too much of a histamine response in your body has a hard time breaking it down. So, for us, like, we were definitely. more concerned. And then another thing is also I really love the diversity that the Airbnbs bring. I love seeing the traditional Jewish people with their ringlets. I love that there are knitting communities that can come to these Airbnbs. And I also really appreciate Airbnbs that also have ADA accommodations for those that need it.

Okay, thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry you went through all that. I'm glad I'm glad it's all that was quite the storm.

We're still in the process, but I just wanted to let you guys know as an ORM resident having airbnbs is a very good option. All right. Thank you. So, yeah.

Right next up. Is it is it John? Okay. And after after John is Carolee Wolfley.

That's my wife. And I didn't know she was going to talk about that, but we are super grateful for her aunt who lives here and other family to let us live in their home. But we did have to use Samaritan peas temporarily for our children and our family to keep us somewhat united during a tough time. I'm not talking about that, but... Obviously, I'm here to support a good neighbor of ours that does have a large Airbnb, and I strongly urge you to look at sizes of Airbnbs. You obviously don't want 100 people in 1,000 square foot, but if somebody can accommodate it and it's not causing any problems, you take that into consideration while you're looking at this. Um, process and, uh, our neighbors that do have an Airbnb, actually a couple of them, you know, they don't cause any problems and I don't see an issue. And I would, I would be here in the alternative of that. If I did see a lot of issues, I'd probably be here fighting for the opposite of that. Uh, I haven't seen that in my area where I live. And I strongly urge you to take that into consideration. And where I live in Orem, on a different subject, I'd love to just kind of bring up, I have no idea what's going to happen. The canal that is no longer in use now, I'd love to know what's going to be happening to that property since it runs through the backyard of my home, along with a lot of other people's. And I know that mine is... But the canal in my backyard is dry and nothing's other than maybe some debris. But I've noticed that now there's lots of weeds growing and other things. And I'd love to know what's going on with that too. But I'm here to support and make our Orem family USA. Thank you.

All right, thank you. I'll just quickly address the canal. The canal company has decided not to run water through it anymore.

Yes.

And the gentleman, Mr. McGinn, if you would like to speak with him or give him your contact information, he has more information about a study that's going on right now to see what options are available for that property. We don't own the property. Right now, the canal company is... remains the ones in charge of it.

And where I live, from my understanding, it lines up with Provo and Orem. So you're dealing with two different cities. Okay. I don't know where you live. I live on Palisade Drive. So when it runs through the backside of Palisade Drive on the maps.

Oh, that might be the Provo Bench Canal. Is that the one that's down below? Yeah. Okay. Are we doing a study on the Provo Bench Canal as well? Yeah. Okay. Then you'd be the one to talk to. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Carolee Wolfley and then Judy Christensen after Ms. Wolfley.

I do not see. Is that you?

I see someone waving. Oh, she's just waving. Oh, she's waving to you. Okay. Well, okay. Well, she's not here. We'll go ahead and Oh, in the nick of time. All right, you're up. You want to catch your breath? Would you like to have someone go next, and then you can catch your breath for a second? OK. OK, Judy Christianson, if you come up, and then Carolee after Ms. Christianson.

Yes, I'm Judy Christensen. I moved here into Orem about 36 years ago. Came down to Utah for school when I was 17. I really love it here. I love the people. I love the values. I love the beauty. And it's awesome. And I'm really happy. To have a cool things to do, you know, like, next. Tuesday have all of our, um. You know, this fun community activity, like, I agree with the 1st speaker about building bridges in the community. I happen to be part of a group, a volunteer group who believes that local governments should not use government resources staff facilities. Any of the local of our local things that we pay for here as a city for to carry out federal immigration enforcement or. Yeah, and I just am here to ask to please. I am hoping that we can pass a formal resolution prohibiting the use of municipal funds, staff time, facilities for federal immigration enforcement activities. I'm hoping that We publicly can direct our local police departments in writing to cease collaboration with ICE in any form, including participation in joint operations, information sharing and notifications. I have friends and family who this directly affects, and I want to feel safe in the community. I value all people, and I hope that we can join together in love in this community. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. All right. And after Ms. Wolfley, we have Ethan Stauffer.

All right. Welcome. Thank you. And thanks for the breath. I've lived in my home in Orem for a zillion years and I love Orem. I am concerned about the city having given short-term rental licenses and is trying to change that. That is a real concern to me. We don't do that. You know, if you want to change the rules down the road, more power to you. But you grandfather in what you've already done. People make plans and they... they make important decisions based on this. And then for you guys to come and change it here, that's really not fair. Um, and I, I, I love warm and I love our neighborhoods. I am, um, I have done everything from being, uh, a married couple, having kids, raising them in our schools, doing the, now I'm a widow and life changes. And having short-term rentals is a way to be able to afford expenses when life does change. And I cannot see any reason that we would want to change that. We know that there's always people that wherever, whatever situation, there's always one bad apple, but that doesn't make all the rest. So I would really hope that you would honor the commitments that ORM has already made to people and to allow short-term rentals to continue be totally a good thing. I know my sister, she stayed in one when she was waiting as a missionary. had gotten everything sold in Idaho and came here and stayed in a short-term rental. It was wonderful. It helped her tremendously. She went on with her life. I've had lots of short-term people come and go. And it's that bridge that helps people and sustains not only them, but us too. So thank you.

Thank you. And I'm sorry for your loss. I'm a fellow widow. So, yes. All right, Ethan.

You're up welcome. Hello mayor and council people. I spoke at the last meeting as well. For those of you who remember, I spoke about the flock cameras that have been placed up around the city. I still have more concerns about that and I would like to share those as well as expound on an issue that I find is connected and that I'm fortunate has already been spoken about with the issue of ice and immigration enforcement. So, 1st, to elaborate on flock for those who do not remember, or maybe you weren't here. That is a private company that makes contracts with cities and police departments to put up these security surveillance cameras around the city with no disclosure of where they are. The only way we have to know where these cameras are placed is a crowdsourced campaign to find them. These cameras are AI-powered to license or to register any license plates or make model color, bumper stickers, even scratches on your car if you pass these cameras are registered in their AI database and become a searchable data point. To use this database, this private database, law enforcement does not require a warrant of any kind whatsoever. All it requires is a search reason, which for thousands of these searches has simply been the word test, which we know through independent reporting has been abused to follow people such as ex-partners or simple personal interest searches. I find this to be an insane breach of civil privacy. Since anyone driving past these cameras are being logged into a database, they have no say in existing and have no way to remove themselves from, for simply going about their life, going about the city. People have said, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. But if I send someone in a package, I'm not putting it in a clear Tupperware. And it isn't because there's something criminal inside. It's because it's just for the recipient. It's a question of privacy. It's not a question of criminality. The way that this intersects with ICE, however, is because ICE has been known to also use this database to track down some of their targets. There are records of over 4,000 nation and statewide lookups by city police departments on the behalf of ICE, with reasons listed as immigration, ICE, ICE and ERO, which is the enforcement and removal operations, illegal immigration, ICE warrant. You understand the trend going on there. I would like to reiterate, ICE themselves has no contract with Flock. They are asking police departments to do these searches for them, and police departments are choosing to and complying to do these. There is no legal or any contract reason that they have to, but these police departments are choosing to assist them. I'm running low on time, so I'll speed up from now. 70.6% of all ICE detainees have no criminal convictions whatsoever. This is people that are being held against their will with no convictions. And I do not think we should be assisting ICE in getting more of them. Additionally, I want to remember that this database is global and private. Even if our cops choose not to communicate with ICE and help them, they can go to a different city and install the same database. The cops there can do the same and betray our citizens.

you thank you and that concludes our personal appearances oh yes um council member millet has a question i just wanted to ask our attorney is steve here well there you are so steve has the city of orem issued short-term rental licenses

No, we've never had a short term rental license that we've issued to anyone. We do have residential rental dwelling licenses that we issue to anybody who wants to rent their dwelling. Primarily that's going to be long term rentals, but could encompass people who have done short term rentals as well. But we do not have any specific short term dwelling rental license.

All right, Ms. Wolfley, would you do me, if you would like some more information and have more discussion, you did not have your contact information. If you want to leave your phone number with Teresa's city recorder, we could maybe have an opportunity to elaborate further on that. If that's something you were interested in doing, just go ahead and leave your contact information. Thank you. All right, Council, we have two consent items this evening. The first is the approval of the meeting minutes of July 14th, 2026. And the second item is an appointment to the Events Advisory Commission. Brian Waite. Is Brian here this evening? All right. We welcome you and I guess I'll wait until after we vote to welcome you. Not to get ahead of myself, but council, I would entertain a motion to approve the consent items. So moved. Second. Motion. Is there a second? Second. All right. The second. All right. We'll start with you, Council Member Millett. Aye. And I vote aye.

Aye.

Aye. Great. Council Member Mecham.

Aye.

Council Member Milstein. Aye. Council Member Kilpack.

Aye. Aye.

All right.

I knew that was gonna be the vote, but welcome.

We're so glad to have you on our commission and being willing to serve our community. Thank you. Right, the next item on our agenda is a public hearing. It is for an ordinance amending Article 22-5-3A and the zoning map of the city of Orem by changing the zone of the property located generally at 1875 South Geneva Road from OS5 open space to PRD planned residential development and to amend the concept plan found in appendix KK, excuse me, site plan Farm Haven to include the subject property and amend the project layout. And so our presenter this evening is our planning director Jared Hall and after Mr. Hall has completed his presentation invite the applicants to come up if you would like to say anything else.

Thank you. That introduction of the item is quite a mouthful, I know. So yeah, it is. It is. And part of the reason that it's so long is that this request has two parts. It is both a change of zoning to rezone the subject property that you see here, this 2.9 acres. That's currently in the OS5 zone. The applicants would like to rezone this piece. And then the second part is to add it to this portion of property that's part of the PRD or a planned residential development and modify that current concept plan that goes with that PRD to include this property that's being rezoned or being requested for rezone. This went to the Planning Commission for a public hearing back in March and April. The Planning Commission voted to recommend approval with a condition that the new PRD would include a direct public right-of-way connection to Geneva Road. That's down here. The concept plan at the time did not have such a connection. When the Planning Commission forwarded it, the City Council heard it at a hearing in May. And, again, the connection, public right-of-way connection to Geneva Road was not present. The council voted at the time to continue the item forward, to give the applicants a chance to look at a concept plan that would include that and come back if that were possible. The applicants have done that and come back with a concept plan that does include a connection to Geneva Road. So we'll review that tonight. But I want to give just the background again because the public hearing is of the agenda and i wanted to make sure that this is all again in people's minds because it has been a little time uh as we stated this is the the parcel that's being uh requested for rezone this is in the os5 zone uh the property to the east here is the whitestone estate subdivision that was recently approved this is peyton crossing to the south and this is the land in the prd zone that would be can that would be combined with this uh property if it's rezoned to form a new prd called westerly way instead of farm haven this is in this is a section from the general plan the land use map this property that's the subject property is in the low density residential southwest category the change is in line with the general plan's designation there's no conflict there The existing Farm Haven concept, again, that did have initially a connection to Geneva Road. That was part of the reason for the request on the planning commission's part in the council review. The existing plan was for 25 smaller lots. We called them cottage lots. It was Farm Haven cottages, 25 lots, and this road internally circulating and then going out to Geneva. The concept that came through on May 12th, that has been redesigned was this 44 twin home lots without the connection to Geneva. The new redesign that does include a connection to Geneva road. We're going to see how many times I have to say Geneva road tonight. You can start counting now for those of you playing any kind of games with it. Um, this is a redesign of the twin home lots, although it's fairly similar. It contains that same circulation pattern inside, uh, 40 units. They did lose some, some twin homes to make that connection happen. Um, but there's again, some additional parking, uh, For guests and visitors, there are two car garages in all of these units and driveways for two cars. The parking standard for PRDs, multifamily housing, is 2.5 parking spaces per unit. This is about 2.7 if you count them all together, not including the driveways. Those would be an addition, but just the garages and these extra parking spaces. A six-foot perimeter fence is required. For a project like this, that would need to be part of the site planning. And that brings me to a point that I want to make now so I don't forget. This is a request for a zone change and a concept plan that goes with that PRD. But those things are not approvals for building. It would still require what's being planned here in concept would still require Planning Commission approval of a site plan for the multifamily nature because there are attached housing units. and a subdivision to make these twin homes. So we'll still go through some iterations with planning commission, but those plans need to be based on this concept plan if that's approved as part of the zoning, if that makes sense. Just want to make sure that's in everybody's heads as we go through this. The roads are all public right-of-way, so these are all Orem, what we call sublocal streets. That's the design, buffered sidewalk, curb and gutter, park strip sidewalks. and then this road out to Geneva to provide better circulation. That does a lot of good things in terms of traffic. It allows an access to a westerly road for two different subdivisions besides the one at hand tonight. Their only access from this subdivision out in the other direction would be out along 850 West to 2000 South. Again, the subdivision to the east here is Whitestone Estates was recently approved. There's a stubbed connection to Whitestone Estates, and this initial 850 West connection has always been part of the plan. That would continue to be part of the plan, providing good access for all the lots that are proposed. These are the elevations. Again, I think it was mentioned before. This backside under PRD rules, this needs to have 40% stone like the front sides. That'll need to be added when the site plan goes through. We'll show that happens. These are twin homes. They're three-bedroom, three-bath units, single stories with basements. They do meet the height requirements of the PRD as well. And that is my presentation. If you have any questions for me tonight.

All right. Thank you. Council, any questions for Mr. Hall?

Can you please explain to us again, and I know that we've been through this before, but maybe for newer members of the public that haven't seen this, what the connection between the current PRD zone and the Autism Academy is and how this new area relates to both of those?

Great, that's a great question. Let me go back up to the site plan here. This property is owned by the Autism Academy, the folks that own and operate the Autism Academy. And they are the applicants in this case. They work for Farm Haven as well. They maintain ownership of it. They would like to subdivide this to provide some housing for folks that are participating in programs of the Autism Academy as part of that. It wouldn't be exclusive to those folks as I understand it, but it would provide some, it's been designed with those folks in mind. And the connection to the Autism Academy is really through some access to this road that will come out. But there's no direct connections from the PRD to the functioning of the Autism Academy. They don't depend on each other for parking or for drainage. They do benefit from those connections, but they don't depend wholly on each other for those things. Does that answer your question? Thank you.

All right. Council, any other questions?

Mayor, can I ask you a question?

Oh, okay. Go ahead, Council Member Mecham and then Council Member Millett.

Okay. Jared, I'm just wondering if you could tell us anything more about the connection to Geneva Road. Is it a two-way connection? I'm just wondering how traffic might flow onto Geneva Road in that particular space, if people are going to be turning from Geneva Road left onto that road, or anything else you can tell us about that connection?

That's a good question. My understanding is this is a full connection, so it would be full turn movements. UDOT has reviewed and approved that. I'm glad you asked because I should have mentioned that as part of the review. This did go to UDOT. It took a while to get back to us all because it had to get UDOT approval because right now this is a state road. This would be full turn movements. It's a good access for all these folks to get out that direction should they need to. Yeah. Anything else there?

That's very helpful.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, and that was one of my questions if we'd heard back from you, Dot, on that. So glad to hear that that's working out for them. And then the other two connections to the east, those are just tying right into the other development, the Whitestone. Into existing subdivisions, yeah. What's the status of Whitestone right now? Have they pulled any permits?

They have not pulled permits yet, but there are two phases of the subdivision are in recording right now.

Okay. So what does that mean? Do they have infrastructure in yet?

I don't believe the infrastructure is in yet, but it will be soon. I think it's underway. Okay. And the recording is probably not far off.

Okay. So they're moving forward. Yeah. So this should all probably go pretty close, pretty quickly together.

There's not really a delay on the Whitestone project. It's moving forward. It just takes a while to get everything done. They're recording and building.

All right, thank you. The applicants here this evening invite you to come up and introduce yourself. And if you'd like to add any additional information, you're welcome to do so.

um thank you and first if i can clarify a couple of things there is only one access to the east into whitestone one of those is a dead end so there's just one going east also the intention is not to sell these homes to those who are participating in the clinic this is open to the public there isn't a requirement that they have access to our facilities there it would be great if they do, but we already have a massive waiting list for people trying to get in. And so to qualify to have a home there, to already be in as a client at the Academy is not likely.

Thank you. Appreciate those clarifications. Council, any other questions for the applicant? Right, hearing none, I'll go ahead, and this is a public hearing, so if you've come here this evening to speak to this item on the agenda, you're welcome to come up now. I ask you to state your name and limit your comments to three minutes.

Hello. Hi, Pamela Moose. I'm on 800 North, so just right there on the main streets. Just I needed an understanding clarification was originally it was going to be for autistic, is going to be built as an autistic community. And I'm understanding now that it's not going to be an autistic community. Just clarification, not an argument, just an understanding. Okay.

All right. Go ahead. Thank you. I probably should have clarified a little bit. This is designed as an autism-friendly neighborhood, which means it will be focused on autism. but you don't have to have a diagnosis to live there. But just an affinity for those who have a diagnosis or maybe feel like they have those tendencies. But the idea is that with what we've created with the clinic and the community center, and now with the neighborhood, is we're going to demonstrate that all individuals on the spectrum are welcome in neurodiverse communities, that they have something to share, that they can have pride in where they live. They're not relinquished to, you know, group homes, things like that, which now are being investigated and rules are changing there. Tricia can tell you more about that. But it is definitely an autism-focused community, but you don't need to have a diagnosis.