Plan & Zoning - Regular Meeting

All right. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the December 2nd, 2025 meeting of the Orange Town Plan and Zoning Commission. Uh, I am Commissioner Azie Parent. And with us this evening, we have Paul Kaplan, Jenny Bowser, recording secretary, Bonnie, Court reporter, Kevin Cornell, Jane McGuire, Jack Emer, zoning administrator. All right. This is our last meeting of the year, right? And we don't meet again till January. Yes, sir.

All right, let's uh get to our agenda. First item uh on our agenda is a review of the minutes from the November 24, 2025 special meeting. Has everyone had a chance to look those over? Take a minute.

[snorts]

Tom's not here. How are we going to know if anything's misspelled? Yeah, [clears throat] I didn't pick up on any uh uh typographical errors. No, I have no comments. I do. I have no comments. We good? All right, then. Somebody make a motion. Move to approve the uh November 24th, 2025 minutes. Oh, no. I'm sorry. Yeah, it is. Second. Okay, we have a a motion to approve the minutes. It's been seconded. All those in favor? I

I All right. Next item on the agenda is old business. Do we have anything under that topic that we want to bring up tonight? Uh Jack, in your report, are you going to uh give us a ballpark on when uh the uh town attorney might have uh a synopsis of the I believe he's targeting our first meeting in January, which is the 6th, but we we briefly spoke about it this week. He was even considering coming in today, but I said, "We don't have you on the agenda." And he says he has not even gone through the whole thing yet.

Um, I spoke with him and yeah, I mean, if if we had him here tonight, it would be very very [cough] Yeah. [snorts] No high level. You know, we wouldn't we wouldn't be digging into any of the details. So, yeah, I I only chunk through the first 15. Yeah. I [clears throat] think we're going to we're going to really get into the nitty-gritty um at our January meeting and it's going to be a deep dive because there's a lot there. Okay. Anything else under old business? How about under new business? All right. But I guess you could tell we're winding down the year, right? Yeah.

All right. Report from the uh zoning enforcement officer, Jack. Thank you. Um just going to confirm that our POCD process has been completed. A copy has been filed with the town clerk as well as submitted to OPM. Uh so we are good there. I'm just waiting on uh the additional copies of the final plan which everybody will get a copy of once we receive from BFJ. Uh other than that, we say everybody. The commission.

The commission. Yes, the commissioners. Not everybody in town. That would be a nightmare. Um, the other thing, I think when I brought this up last time, um, Azie, both you and Jay weren't here. Thursday, December 4th at 6 PM, uh, the JCC in Woodbridge is going to be holding an hour seminar about, uh, affordable housing. Okay? Specifically for to give commission members in the area an opportunity for in-person training. So, this is the flyer to that. Um, I will also email a copy of this later, but if you want, I'll give you that one. Okay, good. I would highly suggest going to these just because it's we don't have a whole lot of opportunity for for inerson training. So, it seems like a good uh good place to be.

Is everybody else done with their uh um I've gotten a few confirmations. I'm not sure anybody three hours or is that what it is? I I think Yeah. No, I think Kevin did and I think a few members of my ZBA have completed it as well. I have not. And it's three hours of it is four hours in total. One of them has to be affordable related to affordable housing. All right. So, definitely go to this.

Yeah. Uh and then I mentioned it before, but the uh uh Yukon Clear and SCROG are not going to be doing an additional curriculum onto what they already have. So, of course, you have the online videos that many of us have already done from the last two years. A refresher is always always good. Um but any other opportunities that that you guys can find? I mean training is not really defined. So as long as it could be you know attributed to land use topics then can you send those links again? Yes sure can. And if you can't make the uh you got to get that done

Thursday the Yukon clear affordable housing presentation is remarkably balanced and well done. Yeah. Surprising. Is that a you you watching online or Yeah. Yeah, I will I will include a link to that as well because Yukon Clear, who worked with SPROG to do the the initial like curriculum for everybody. They have some of their own independent opportunities that they, you know, post periodically. So, I will send you a link to that page as well that tells you all of their permanent uh, you know, videos that they have up there and then it keeps you updated with upcoming events, too. Kevin, that one you were talking about, one hour. Yes. Good for one one hour credit.

Yep. Keep in mind, you could always do multiple hours of affordable, you know, if you want to watch that one and still go to the the JCC. Yeah. You don't want to do more of them. [laughter] That I leave up to you. We're going to live it for 10 years. I'm glad you brought that up. Yes. I'm a little behind. All right. Um, too. Yeah. Other than that, my my report is pretty much done. Um, our next item is a bond release that I told you prior. Um Rohan, who's the representative for SevenBrew, who is requesting the bond release, uh got pulled away at the last minute. He was going to be here tonight. He is not. I leave it up to you whether we want to hold this off until the next meeting or

Well, what what uh what what's he asking for? The bond is a full release of both performance and cash bond. What's the status of it? Uh completely completely done. Striping's complete. uh curbing, paving, everything looks good on my end. Not the landscaping though, right? Landscaping is done. There really wasn't a whole lot of a lot of landscaping. Yeah. And and plantings. Um we do have guarantees for a year in the plans. So if I go back there next summer and one or two of them are gone, again, there's only maybe five or six in total. Uh we can have them replace those. So as far as site work goes, it was pretty minimal. It's a it's a small place. And they actually paved the whole lot, right? They did. Yeah. Uh

for the whole shopping center. Yeah, they did that. They only paid for their portion. That's a big difference. I think they the property owner and you know I also reached out to them encouraging them to to do so or you know face yeah face a violation but they they were they understood that it needed to get done so they they did it all in one they'd be in good good one fell swoop. Yeah. I'll move that we listen I as much as we should have the applicants here I on this particular one I don't think it's a big deal. I'd move that we approve unless you're looking for a motion. Yes, I am. Okay. Move to approve the bond release request submitted by Rohan Kapor for property known as 112 Boston Post Road. Um a full release of the performance bond and and cash bond. I should have put the cash in there too.

Second. Okay. We have a motion to uh approve the request to release the bond. Uh it's been seconded. All those in favor? I. I. Okay. Thank you. All right. Now we have uh two public hearings. I guess we're going to take the second one first. Yes. The applicant for the applicant's not here for the first one also reached out to me today saying he will be delayed a little bit. We'll hopefully see him walk in by 7:30 7:45. But I think we'll chew on this one long enough hopefully for him to show up. Okay. I told him before if we end before he gets here

I already have an extension uh approved from him. So if we end before he gets here, we can convene for the night and he understands he's coming back in January. I already have the extension from him in anticipation of that. All right, that's good. Yes. All right. So yeah, can we get the secretary to read the legal notice? Huh? Take a time to do that.

Yes. Notice is hereby given that on Tuesday, December 2nd, 2025, at 7 p.m. At the Orange Town Hall, 617 Orange Center Road, the Orangetown Plan and Zoning Commission will conduct a public hearing on the following petition to amend the Orange Zoning Regulations submitted on the initiative of the Orange Planning and Zoning Commission to amend article 1, sections 383-14 and 383-9 and article 3, section 383-26 of the Orange Zoning Regulations regarding short-term rentals. and application for a special exception permit or use submitted by George Nordon for a property known as 250 Indian River Road to establish a retail service establishment within an existing building. Waiver of the site plan and architectural design plan has been requested. Copy of this notice has been filed with the Orangetown Clerk. Additional information is on file. The Orange Zoning Department dated in orange the 18th day of November 2025. All right, good. Thank you, Kevin. Uh,

Aussie, actually, just for formality purposes, if I could get a vote to switch the order of these, I believe that's what we are supposed to do if we're switching the order. So moved. Second. All those in favor? I I Thank you.

All right. All right, then. Let's uh let's start with the uh item number two under public hearings, petition to amend the orange zoning regulations. Um, let's see. You all you all have copies of uh the the proposed amendments. Um, this uh I I think is what we talked about. I mean, it's not this is not the first time we're looking at this language. Um and uh you know it's the [clears throat] idea what we set out to to regulate was uh you know uh short-term rentals uh Airbnb type rentals and uh you know not that we don't think that they are prohibited as a commercial use in the residential zone uh as Owen notes in his memo but uh you know for boot and suspenders sort of uh action. Um this this amendment will uh you know confirm that any short-term rental that is a rental less than 30 days is prohibited in the residential uh zone and I think the the language achieves that and also achieves making it clear that um if a homeowner wants to enter into a long-term leasing arrangement that that is allowed being defined as 31 days

or more. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Whereas while that has been done in town forever, uh we could have applied the no commercial use language that we used to fight the Airbnb to had we decided to to people who were reasonably using their property and leasing for longer periods of time. So now they have the added benefit of being legal,

right? I mean, and again, I think that it may there may be limitations, constitutional limitations on the extent to which you can prohibit a property owner from leasing his his property. So, I mean, uh, the, you know, the fact that it it wasn't in there before doesn't, you know, I think that the, uh, the the owner of property could probably have done that without concern of of, uh, you know, running a file that never came up as an issue. So, that I'm aware of.

No, I never I never really perceived it to be a commercial use, although it certainly is. Um, and I'm not sure why. And listen, I'm fully on board with what we what we have proposed here. Um, but I, you know, more than 31 days is fine. It's probably still a commercial use, but has always been done and I don't see any reason to stop it. We have the authority and the commercial use language still exists to keep people from running businesses out of the single family. Yeah. Okay.

So, I you know I think you know taking care of those two things and cleaned up some language. We you know took out letting made it leasing. Mhm. Uh and we there were a few other comments that I had that I see have been incorporated just you know little uh typographical kind of things. Um so I don't I think that I think it's ready for our approval. I think it accomplishes unless we have any other issues with it.

Jay, you all set on it? I'm all set. When would it take effect? Uh, we could do Tuesday, December 9th, a week from today. All right. I I'd ask for ask for comment from the public. There's no public in attendance this evening. Uh so um and we don't need any input from all the referrals have been made and nobody has come back with Yeah, I see the referral from uh yeah uh Natuk Valley got back. Some of them didn't even get back to us and we're well beyond the 35 days. And you have no correspondence or emails or um No, I I don't.

All right. A couple people reached out expressing interest in being here tonight. They did not follow through with that. So, um, in favor or opposed? Both. I think I I did have a conversation with somebody, um, in town who couldn't be here tonight who does utilize uh, Airbnbs, not really in Orange. Um, he does actually more like insurance claims, like people, you know, the insurance companies putting them up in in houses that he owns. um he was actually in support of a 30-day minimum saying, you know, it prevents transient activity, but he wanted to make sure that, you know, fair opportunity was being given to property owners as well, which I think we've accomplished with this language.

So, as an individual who's been put out of their house on an insurance claim, I I think having a prohibition of less than 30 days is certainly not going to be a big impact on that. That Yep. Yeah. uh it getting for an insurable claim getting back in within 30 days would be monumental. I think the vast majority would be the other way. I think so too. I I've had interest on on both. You know, nobody giving me a formal email saying please add this to the record. So, and I mean we've certainly heard a lot of testimony from the board and others uh over the last few months. So, I think we are good to proceed. All right. So, is someone prepared to move that we close the public hearing? So, so moved. All right.

Second. Okay. The motion's been made to close the public hearing. It's been seconded. All those in favor? I I Okay. I think we could proceed to a vote on the uh text amendment unless there's any further discussion.

Yeah. I think we were were careful and deliberative uh as to the process. We also went through council because there is um uh I don't know if there's a lot of controversy, but in any event, I feel very comfortable with what we've done. I'll I'll move that we approve the amendment to the town of Orange only regulations, article 1, sections 383-14 and 383-9 and article three uh at section 383-26 as uh proposed in our uh in our text amendments that that are in front of us. uh with an with a uh an effective date of what did you say? Uh Jack, I'm sorry. Uh Tuesday, December 9th. Tuesday, December 9th.

All right. We have a motion to approve the uh proposed text amendment. Second. It's been seconded. All those in favor? I I Okay. All right. So, our applicant for the uh first item on our agenda. Yeah. He couldn't uh couldn't tell me. He gave me a range, but we're done. I told him we wouldn't be waiting for him if we can give him We can give him a few minutes. Sure. Yeah, we can Can we talk about it? Can we talk about it when he's not here? I don't know. Um, the public hearing has been opened. We We certainly can.

So, I I just want to make sure I'm looking at what I'm looking at. It it looks like this is a medical office building basically professional building, but I mean if you go there predominantly it's not at uh what is it? It's not at Spring. It's not Spring Brook. It's not Spring Brook showroom. Right. Directly across from Tractor Supply. Exactly right. And this is all happening on the inside, but you're bringing it to us because it's a change of use.

So in the LI3 zone, [clears throat] just getting there. In the LI3 zone, we've always well in any zone, we've treated uh gyms and similar facilities as service rendered or uh service rendered in a prime in a primarily retail setting. Retail is allowed in this zone only by special use. So that is why he's before us tonight and requested the waiverss of the site plan and architectural because he's not changing anything about the existing site. Correct. So that that's 38390 special uses. Correct. Stores and other buildings where goods are sold or service is provided primarily at retail. And then there's some

conditions but and it's very hard to read but uh Isn't this like a medical rehab facility or is it just el older people? Um I think the existing use uses in the building right now are more geared towards medical clinics. There might even be a dentist in there, right? Um but again, under special uses, this this use is allowed in this zone. Maybe not as of right like the others are, but it's also the nature of the business. And I don't want to get too deep into it because it's not. Yeah. No, it's not for an el for elderly folks. So, I think that's what he said in his application.

Well, over 50, right? I'm sorry. Yeah. Sorry. The original we got was very faint as well. That's why everybody kind of got that. Yeah. So, it's an age. It's basically an age restricted gym. Yeah. That is not a rehab. We are over to help them with uh in person strength balance.

Turn on your uh strength balance. Your uh stamina stamina. Stamina and overall functionality. I love it. In a warm and welcoming environment. Traditional strength training, cardiovascular training and fun functional training equipment to do so. Mhm. Okay. Because if it was more medically, if it was a rehab facility, it would No, it would be no problem. Got this and it's bordering on that just because there's an age restriction. Yes. But there is no medical aspect to this. It's just functionality. Yeah. No, there's no invasive I watched pit last night.

Yeah. [laughter] And uh and I I let the applicant know, well, that that's all well and good, but we still need parking calculations. So, he did give us this, which I did go over the numbers. They they seem to be correct to me. Um, there's a requirement in here, not that I'm trying to sell this while he's not here, but under 38390, it also says that uh on properties 5 acres or more, which this is, uh, 65,000 square feet per acre of of building. So, this building is 18,000 and change. 18,800. So he does he does meet meet these requirements. Yes. Based on my my review. That's why everybody else is here too.

And minimum lot size at least two acres. Oh yeah. We're we're well beyond that. Yeah. Not not for this application but for later. When we talk about lot size and acreage, we don't bother delving into whether it's usable acreage or a pond. Do we? We don't. No. In subdivisions, we do. We talk about uh you know, if we require an acre, 60,000 square feet for a parcel, rough terrain, uh like steep slopes, ledge, wetlands, those things kick in there. not under this definition for to my knowledge.

I guess it's a it's a little late in the development history of Orange to worry about that. [laughter] There's not a lot left open, right? Reopen all the Well, honestly, all the land that's left has a lot of those conditions. That's why it was never developed before. So, it definitely is important. There is no easy land left. No, you're right. is New Haven University of New Haven still they have listed that property. Uh I a title searcher came in late last week or maybe yesterday to to research that. I don't I have no idea who bought it, what the intentions are there or if it's under contract.

What's that Paul? So, I don't know who or where I heard it, but I had heard that uh the um home office of Hubble, which is now being used as University of New Haven, right, is uh I I think they were interested in selling it or had been sold. I don't know. Uh sounds It sounds like it's under contract B if it's, you know, being title search. Title searched. So, yeah, that's 584 uh Derby Milford Road. It's a 45 acre piece or 48. I think you're about right. This is uh Yes, about 40 about 47 acres. Yep. It's all up there. Valuable space. [laughter]

The the uh site plan requirement that the applicant is asking us to wave. Not doing any changes. A waiver of the site plan and architectural design plan has been requested. That is that's set forth in 383B. believe that's correct. Yes.

Um I I don't know. I I I feel that the application is is sort of poorly put together. So while I think it probably complies, which part specifically do you think? Well, if you look at if he's not changing the outside of the building, you don't have any problem with the waiver, I assume. Well, the the way I do in the sense that um you know, site plan might might be necessary to demonstrate compliance. I don't know how much of an issue you want to make with

compliance of the existing structure. Well, no. Let me get back to the uh what was that? 90, right? Yes. So, stores and other permitted uses or uses permitted by special permit uh stores and other buildings where goods are sold or services provided primarily at retail provided minimum lot size is at least two acres. So, I mean, you can't really tell that from the application. So the your your position is that the application he may substantively comply but the application may be I'm sure he does right you know but it's just such a a poor application aside from the fact we can't read it.

Yeah. I mean that sort of bothered me. I made the applicant. So that there there is a line that says 6.5 acre parcel. I don't know if that meets your needs but it is there. Where is that the narative page of of his application? Really faint. It says abundant parking. Oh, first page. Yep. First page. 6.5 acre parcel. Last line of the writing. Yeah. 6 6.5 acre parcel. Yeah. Is that what that says? I I can't It was tough. We We thought about that before giving giving these to you guys, but they were all a little faint. I don't know. You know,

maybe I'd feel better if the thing were typed up. I uh Jack, what you can you get into the assessor's GIS? Sure. Pull up the uh assessor's map block and lot is 2312. Just double check the size for us. Sure. You don't think it's 6.5? Uh, size stalling, but 6.33.

Well, minimum is two. So, minimum is two and he is still exceeding six acres to go off that that calculation that we mentioned before for the size of the structure. Is it? Yeah. You home, boys. story. I don't I don't imagine hours of operation will be an issue. Probably be almost every day, but yeah, not to a certain extent. The over 50 people are going to be in bed by 8. I [laughter] have been at the gym after 8:00 and there are some of my ilk that are there. They're sleeping, but they're there. I was thinking really early because that's when people get

they can go [laughter] they can go after dinner at 4:30. Well, uh, yeah, I leave it up to you. I mean, we I guess we don't need him in the room. If we do want to take a vote, I did make him aware. Or if he walked in now, so that No. Yeah, maybe someone has to present an application. Yeah, we're not supposed to. We're supposed to be listening, not presenting, right? Yeah. You know what? But I I would tell him that, you know, for the record, we should have a a typed up version of this application just so we could read it, please. You know, it's impossible to read.

I I agree. All right. And we shouldn't be doing the applicants agree work for him. So if he asks you to type it up. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm just The only reason I had those numbers ready is because I knew you guys were going to be asking and Yeah. Otherwise, I don't What else on the What else would be shown on the site plan that we would that we would need other than handicap parking? Yeah. Parking. Yeah. Or or the flow of the parking. Well, that's not changing. That's existing, but it it would be nice to know there's handicap spots by the door to a facility that caters to. Is it worth having him in order to get that we have to have him do a

So that's that's kind of the discussion that we had is do I I'm am I going to go hire an engineer and a surveyor to put something together that I'm not changing how but but you would think it might be something that listen if if we're going to go to you know if we're going to go to January anyway it would seem reasonable for him to talk to the owner of the property. Yeah. Get an older site plan. All right. Make a presentation. He [snorts] did do that. There really wasn't much super modern, but we did get these parking numbers off of an old site plan at my office. Okay. Can we see it? That's I Well, the floor plan doesn't make

Well, the floor plan I I don't know what the limits of the of the lease is. Is it the whole floor? No, it's No, but it's just a bubble. Weird. Yeah. So, so like if he's leasing property, believe me, someone gave him a leasing plan. Mhm. Gave him a what? Gave him a leasing plan. Yeah. Can we can we just just have like real lines on a drawing? Pretty please. All All things I mentioned and did I It's Please make it easy for us to be Well, let me say that's why I preface my remarks by saying it's a good use, I think. Yeah. probably complies. No,

procedurally, but it's so badly presented. Yeah, let's let me let me get back to it. Yeah, let's just even if you walk through the door right now, I think we'd be having the same comments. So, okay. Yeah, I I'll reach out to him and I will let the board know or I will let him know the board's concerns. Yeah. I mean, Kevin, you think that this is adequate the floor plan? mean no I'm saying that somebody gave him a leasing plan because you know he I'm sure they would be interested in knowing what they're leasing and it probably has like little lines on it. It has a diagram that you know that goes from point to point. Yeah.

I mean this bubble cloud if I was leasing this bubble cloud it's like it stops in the middle of a room. I I think I think we should I think we should hold this over till Yeah. in our next meeting. You could tell him if he's worried about spending, you know, making an investment in it. I mean, we are inclined. We're inclined to go along with the use. Understood. Well, we don't need them to do a whole new survey on the outside, a picture just to make us know that everything's fine. Understood.

The the actual boundaries of the leasable space. you know, not because it changes anything other than we know what we're looking at. It would be nice. Agreed. I mean, we No crosswalks are changing or No, nothing on the exterior. But I mean, if if it were, we something we'd want to know about, but if he was changing even one parking space, I'd be making do the site plan, you know. But yeah. All right. So, I mean, when if they were over 62, we'd bought a loading dock. [laughter] All right. So, so we'll uh we'll [snorts] hold this over to the next meeting. Okay. Yes. And we have the uh we have the uh waiver.

We have the extension. Our next meeting is on the 35th day from today, but who knows what happens in between then. I said we're not going to I'm not going to worry about that. You're going to give me the waiver or else we're going to vote tonight because I'm not putting anything to risk. So, you could tell me you have good news and bad news. Yes, we'll do. We'll do. It's January. January 6. I don't see anything else on the No, I thought we just sit around for a while though, you know, [laughter] for Christmas. Uh, okay. That concludes our agenda. Move to adjurnn. Have a motion to adjurnn. Second. Seconded. All those in favor? I I Okay, very good. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Happy