Plan & Zoning - Regular Meeting

Okay, you're live.

Okay, thank you. All right, good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the September 1st, 2026 meeting of the Orangetown Plan and Zoning Commission. I am Commissioner Ozzie Parenti, and with us this evening... Paul Kaplan.

Jenny Bowser, Recording Secretary.

Kevin Cornell. Gene Dwyer. Steve Hotchkiss, Zoning Administration. Okay, and we're expecting Commissioner Tom Torrenti. I'm sure he's going to be here tonight, just running late. All right, so let's get right to our agenda. First item, review of the minutes of the August 4, 2026 meeting. The only question I had in the third part Paragraph down on page two. It says the only minor change that Mr. Hesketh wanted to note was that the electric generator in the rear of the location was switched out. What does that mean?

It was switched out for another model.

Oh, all right. Yeah, there was a minor revision to the pad layout.

Oh, to the pad layout? Yeah. Okay, I'll add that in then.

I just think, you know, somebody reading this a few years from now might not know what that, what we meant there. Other than that, I had no comments.

I didn't either, and Tom's not here to, well, you know, no punctuation will be changed.

Punctuation looked pretty good to me, so. Thanks.

Yes.

I think that's fine. Okay.

I'd like to make a motion to approve the minutes as submitted. Second.

Okay, we have a motion to approve the minutes. It's been seconded. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay. Next item on our agenda is old business. Do we have anything to discuss under that topic?

Well, just as a a note to everyone. Before the meeting, I had asked Jenny if we were getting the updated regulations to reflect the recent text changes to the regulations, and they will be here shortly. Good.

You're working on it?

Yes. I just got them. I put them in the other binder. I just need to organize the inserts.

All right.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Anything else under old business? How about under new business? I got a couple of questions under item four for a report of zoning enforcement officer, but you want to give us your report, Steven?

Yeah. Had a site plan application come in Had a site plan application come in on 60 Marshall Road. That's the natural gas company. It's a project that they had initially started with Jack. Nothing major. It's about an 8 by 12 pad on which they're going to have a 2,000 gallon above ground fuel storage tank. That's for their fleet vehicles. So they provided the application, the site plan so far. I just have to confirm review, but it's been to all other department heads at this point that needed to review it.

Fire department as well?

Correct, yes. So, like I said, pretty minor for a large piece of property. So I've got to review that, but that one looks good. Other than that, I've got a couple.

I'm sorry, just so looks good for an administrative approval. Correct, yes. Okay, thank you. Just wanted to make sure that's what we were referring to.

I got a call from someone today about a golf simulation business. It's a bit different kind of business model from the one that was in the former Christmas tree plaza. Was? Past tense. That's not there anymore.

That's not there anymore, right?

I don't believe it is. Is it? Sorry if it is to the business owners.

I think it's part of the whole hack story.

Yeah, I want to say, too, I don't think it's there anymore, though.

Okay. Either way, sorry to the business owners if it is still operating. Sort of kind of like a membership business model where you pay a monthly fee, and it's actually keypad access, which the business kind of, it's a franchise. There's about 250 locations, I guess, nationwide, but it's actually 24-7. So, you know, sort of like a gym, if you will. That fits in the zone, though, I imagine. Something I wanted to kind of talk with you guys about. I don't recall ever seeing any language about 24-7 businesses yet in our regulations.

I thought we have a prohibition as to timing, don't we? I mean, it's always one of the questions that we ask, but I'm not sure there's a prohibition.

Well, I mean, what about Dunkin' Donuts? Dunkin' Donuts is open 24-7.

No, they're not.

What about the new business we approved on Marsh Hill Road?

Oh, that gas station thing? Yeah. There was going to be a whole bunch of other things, but it's just a gas station?

Yeah.

I don't know. Yes. You were right all the time.

Well, we'll have to look at that question. Yeah. I mean, I don't recall specifically. approving a 24-7 operation, but...

There's no standard in our, like, any kind of zone where we prohibited it, I don't think.

Right.

I think that's probably the case, but... Yeah, I mean, we put restrictions on hours of operations for, like, deliveries because of noise. Almost all the time. Yeah, but... I don't think we have a prohibition. I mean, Planet Fitness is 24-7.

Well, construction activities can't begin until a certain time.

Like Dunkin' Donuts.

Oh.

I mean, I don't know if it's in our regulations, but you can't start construction activities before, what, 8 o'clock or 7.30?

I think it's 7.

But is that in the zoning regulations? I'm not sure.

I believe it is. I've had to look at that before. I want to say it's in regulations.

All right.

Okay. The plan for fitness is 24 hours.

No. An orange?

That's what it says, yeah. 440 Boston Post Road. Well, I see.

Anyway, going back, yes, we can certainly discuss that, but what's the difference if I went in, if I was a dentist and I went into my office at 3 in the morning? No one's going to care.

Well, or if you were a shift worker. Or I was, yeah. You know, you couldn't work out in the daytime. You had to go and... Right. you know, the three days.

So if you're a golf addict and you need your fix at 3.30.

Yeah.

All right. Well, we'll look at that question when the time comes. Well, yeah, no, I appreciate the, uh, the kind of discussion and insight into that. Like I said, didn't have much time to look at it, but I didn't notice anything outright saying no 24 seven businesses. Um, The location was on the post road either way, too.

And that kind of operation, I don't think it's going to get – it's not like it's going to have a lot of deliveries or anything like that. No. It's not going to bother anyone.

A lot of traffic. No. Okay. The matter I had talked to you about, the appointment of the ZEO, and when I read Section 383-3, it does say that the commission shall appoint the ZEO. Okay. the way that formally correct yes I don't think so so the way that we had done in my previous job it just came up for the commission you know very simple I do have a copy of the minutes from that meeting and the um I don't want to say it, the letter that the chairman had wrote. So I could pass that around, give it to whoever. I had been doing it for a while in West Haven at the time that this went on, so it was just formalizing it.

We should have a motion here to approve your employment as a CEO for the board.

The text just says straight out, there shall be a zoning enforcement officer who shall be appointed by the commission. Oh, interesting. So we should have a vote appointing him as the ZEO.

All right. Well, that'll be satisfactory, a motion to...

I believe so. I don't think it's really something we need to put on the agenda and discuss at length.

I'll move that we... Are you okay to do this?

I am, yeah.

Anybody object? Move that we approve Steve as of yet. Hotchkiss. Thank you. Hotchkiss. Maybe not.

He's got to take a call. No, that's okay. He got a job offer. Move that we approve Steve Hotchkiss as CEO. We approve his appointment.

Yes, as CEO for the Orange Board of Zoning Board, rather.

Zoning Enforcement Officer.

Zoning Enforcement Officer. Thank you.

Okay. Jay, second? Yes. Second is the motion. Okay. Any further discussion? All right. Please, no. Can I have a vote in this? No. No.

I would vote to approve anyway.

All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay. So Steve is duly appointed as a zoning enforcement officer.

a tight boat, but you squeaked her. Oh, wow, yeah, I ran out the door. I see how that was kind of comical, huh? Yeah.

Do you have anything else to report? Now that you're Dewey appointed as our zoning commissioner.

I've been working through the sign kind of project, if you will. Got a few banners down. I don't know if you'd like me to name some areas or not, or if anybody's kind of noticed, but there were some grand opening signs that were lingering in a couple of cases for about 18 months, if not longer. But it's all on the post road. Correct, yeah. So they pop up just almost as frequently as you can get them down, but it's a work in progress. We did have a resident come in last week and said that one particular furniture store really puts a lot out there on the weekends when they know there's no one around to check in on it. And then they... take it in on Monday morning? Correct, yeah. So I don't know how we want to go about that, but from the photos he provided us, it really is a hindrance to the line of sight on the road.

Kevin volunteer to go down on the weekends?

I thought I saw a hand raised.

Is it a traffic commission issue potentially, given what you just mentioned about the sight lines?

I don't know. If they were out there on a weekday, it would easily just be a zoning thing. I don't think that it should elevate to that point, but maybe it's a discussion that I have for Slechman Zioli, whether I can take an afternoon off and work on a Saturday or something like that, just to be able to see it. I think that's a good idea. What do you do?

You just pull them, right?

I heard that was past practice. What's the alternative?

Just start finding them or giving them a letter?

Yeah, you know, initially kind of providing, if they don't have the information, the information on what the regulations say and giving them an opportunity to make the correction. And then if we have to proceed with violations and ultimately cease and desist kind of efforts, then that would be the course.

It's going to take up a lot of time.

All right, it sounds like you have a plan.

That's all I have for you guys tonight. Okay, anything? Oh, actually, sorry, one more thing. I did receive the bond estimates for Big Y. Is that something you guys like to see prior, or does it just come back to you for the releases?

Yes, the latter. I don't think we've ever gotten involved in setting the bond. All right, very good. Then that's it for me. All right. Anything further for Stephen? Okay. All right. Then we can move on to our public hearings. We have three tonight, but the third one, the subdivision application, is going to go off. The applicant's attorney needed a little more time to get ready for the hearing, as I understand it. Yes, so... And so we'll be on the September 15th agenda. That's the one with Tommy... That's the one with Tommy Lynch? No, that's a different one.

Oh, okay.

That's a different one. That will be on the same night. So you brush up on your zoning, on your... Your regulations for... Subdivisions. Right, okay. All right, so, Kevin, you want to start us off with the public hearing notice?

Okay. Notice is hereby given that on Tuesday, September 1st at 7 p.m. at the Orange Town Hall, 716 Orange Center Road, the Orange Town Plan and Zoning Commission will conduct a public hearing on the following. Application for the conversion of a single family dwelling to accommodate an elderly apartment submitted by Donald and Jacqueline Sheck for property known as 588 Dogwood Road to construct in addition to accommodate It says an in-law apartment, but we have to be careful with our language. It's specifically for an elderly apartment.

As opposed to just an in-law apartment.

Right. And we have to be, you know, sorry. Anyway, with a garage below. We'll save that for the discussion. All right. Yes, please. Oh, okay. Sorry. Second, application to amend the zoning map submitted by 284 Racebook Road, LLC, a request to change two properties known as MBL 2312-A and MBL 231-2B, comprising a total of 3.66 acres from the Lightdale Industrial District No. 3 to the Commercial C1 District. And since we're not doing the third, do we bother to read it?

Yeah, we're going to open the public hearing.

Oh, we're going to open the public hearing. And third, subdivision application, applicant TKB Holdings, Orange, LLC, property owner, TKB Holdings, Orange, LLC, subdivision of 140, Boston Post Road, assessor's map, block, lot, 44451, 142, Boston Post Road, Assessor's Map, Block and Lot, 44453. And 148, Boston Post Road, Assessor's Map, Block Lot, 44452. And 1, Eagle Place, Assessor's Map, Block and Lot, 4445A. To reconfigure these existing lots into two reconfigured lots, total acres, 13.6 in the zoning districts C1 and LI1.

Okay, very good. Thank you, Kevin. All right, first item then, the application of Donald and Jacqueline Sheck, 588 Dogwood Road. Is the applicant present? Would you, one of you or both of you, come to the podium if you would? Introduce yourself. for our record and describe the project to us.

Donald Sheck from 588 Dogwood Road. We would just like to build an elderly apartment next to our house because my wife, we were set at downsizing buying a smaller house. We offered our house to our daughter and we'll put our unit next to it.

One of my daughters has proposed the same thing. But she was gonna rent it to someone else wasn't yeah All right, well Anybody have any You want to say anything further about the application?

You guys have any questions on it? you know, we're not going back any farther toward the rear of our property the house is just going sideways and within the 25 foot, just less than the 25 feet that were allowed that way. And we're just gonna have parking underneath. We have two car garage under it now and we just wanna keep the parking underneath it for ourselves.

And sir, is there a retaining wall holding back the front yard from the garage level at this point?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes. So what will happen is now that'll actually be poured foundation and I'll just take the retaining wall that's comes down the driveway a little bit now and bring it into the side of the new foundation right where the right just past where the stairs are going to go for the access to the new addition.

I had a question on that. Go. You had the same question probably. Uh, I'm looking at the proposed accessory dwelling unit with garage below. To the right of that on the map is a little square.

That's a porch.

Is that what that is?

Yeah, we have to access it from the side.

Right, that was my question. Does this provide for access from the side yards? rather than from correct exactly that's why that yeah otherwise we would have put it out the front but then we have to go off the side all right and it's a it's a uh it's like a porch it's not part of the uh the accessory dwelling units no it's just going to be a stairs with a platform or just a roof over it so that we don't get wet you know we don't count that as square footage no because you read it you're right at about nine you know exactly we're right at 900 but they said no that you don't count that as square footage because it's just that that was my question yeah

Did you have to increase the septic size at all?

Yes. In fact, we just had that done. Regardless, I figured we had an upside. I see Brian signed off on it. Yeah, yeah. We changed the tank size. We had to add 40 feet of fields. Okay. And the tank size is now what, 1,250? 15. It's a four-bedroom house, so it was 1,250. Now we've bumped it to a 1,500-gallon.

Yeah. So none of my business, but... It might be more comfortable and a little safer if you, rather than building that platform in order to meet the requirement of coming in the side, maybe you could, you know, get a variance to come in the front, you know, because... Go ahead.

Sorry. Yes, please.

Just because the microphones are set up. Yeah, yeah.

Hi, Jacqueline Sheck. So we initially wanted to, the front door of our house is facing the street, and when we wanted to do the addition, we wanted the door right here where we could put a porch with our door and then this door, but we were told that they didn't want to see the front door.

We couldn't do that. That's the only reason why we designed it the other way.

No, and that is correct. Right. The regulation specifically says that You know, you can only access the existing house through the front. But I would think that it might be worth the effort to try and get a variance because the hardship is the grade. that you have and you have a way of doing it, but building a platform out into nothing, you know, seems a little extreme. And you might get a variance because of the grade. You know, this works too, so...

But there is a possibility of a variance if we want to...

I mean, it's not up to us. This board, but it would be a board like this made up of people who would look at this and say it makes some sense potentially. It may be worth the effort to...

If you have a month or two, you know, to ask them. If you're in a rush, then...

They're already living with us, so... The answer is yes. The answer is yes. Three, four, and five-year-olds. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we want to do what's best. Our oldest granddaughter was starting school. They were in Hamden, and they were hoping, you know, coming here was perfect to go to our school system here, so they wanted to get her in for August 1st.

I mean, it would be great if we could have the door in front. Yeah, we could look at that, yeah.

If it's something you guys want to explore, you know, come to me. I'm happy to run you through applications, give you all the information. You know, if you want to do it this way, you find out a year or two down the road, it's really a pain. You know, we could talk about it then, too. Okay. Totally up to you. But I think that is a valid thought. Yeah.

Yeah, if it's something you think we'd be able to get a variance for.

Can we give any advice on that?

I can't, yeah. I'm not giving you legal advice.

It's just... It's something we could ask. Yeah.

You know, you're building a platform... above an active garage into an elderly apartment to satisfy a side entry. Which, thank you, by the way, for actually doing the right thing. We're not used to it, but thank you.

We've always done the right thing. The Czechs have always done the right thing. Yes. It's on the record now.

It's on the record. But we're happy to move forward, or we can put it up. What do we do? We put it on hold, or what do we do?

For what? If they want to check and see what the... I don't see why we would do that.

If we're inclined to approve it, I think we should approve it. And if they want to take that, we can... Oh, and then you can do your thing. If they want to...

If we don't do it, it's already in motion. There you go. Better idea.

I had a question. Maybe you picked up on this, Kevin. In the zoning block on the map, there's a line that says, projection into setback, three feet required. And it doesn't say anything about... It just says what's required. doesn't give any number for existing or proposed. Which map are you on? Which one are you on? I'm on 580, Limited Zoning Location Survey. Oh. 588 Dogwood Road.

Yeah, okay.

It's a sheet ECSV.

Yeah, got it. Through the regulations, you're allowed to have three feet of projection into the setback. That's the maximum allowed number. Like an E or an architectural projection.

Correct. But he doesn't show anything existing or proposed, so that's...

He's showing the structure of the building, but the eave comes out there and intrudes into the 25 side yard, probably. See, right, on the limited zoning thing, you've got a 25.7 sideline. Mm-hmm. Yeah, if there's an eave off the face of the structure.

Yeah, usually it would be a little, some kind of, yeah, overhang.

Right. You're talking about the new structure. Yeah.

I mean, there's nothing... Where did you see it called out?

Oh, there it is. There's nothing existing, nothing proposed. I guess it doesn't really matter, right? Mm-hmm.

So, but while we're on this map, I just, I think it's important that the only accessory dwelling units we allow in the town, you know, are for elderly, okay? So, you know, if the plan, you know. Elderly being defined as? Over 60? There's a definition.

55. They told us that every year after we got to verify that somebody on one side or the other is over 55.

What it says is at least one dwelling unit shall be occupied by a person 55 years of age or older. Right.

And so when you hit 55... We qualify. Yeah. But... You know, if we could just have the map say it was proposed elderly dwelling unit.

Yeah, we just marked it wrong. I think that was us when we put it down on our...

Okay. Yeah, I mean, Codispot shouldn't, you know, fret on changing it for you. So instead of accessory, proposed elderly... It's just that when plans get filed with stuff on it like that, it makes people have expectations. Right.

And not these people that I speak to.

Not you, I guess, sorry.

So what would you want changed?

I think what Kevin's saying, an existing condition site plan proposed.

Oh, put a, say, elderly accessory dwelling unit?

Yeah, take out accessory.

Yeah, just elderly.

Just add elderly above accessory. No substantive change. Gotcha.

Yeah. I don't think they'll cause squawk action. Well, as long as we're on...

So elderly, accessory, part, right? Elderly, accessory, unit, part, right?

I would get rid of the word accessory. It says... What's the regulation say? The regulation says... What? We are... 383-140. It is called Conversion of Dwellings to Accommodate Elderly Housing, and it says a dwelling unit elderly... Yeah, so dwelling... So just go, you know, elderly dwelling unit with garage below.

In other words, take out the word accessory, I think, and put in the word elderly.

That's all. Elderly dwelling unit with garage below.

Right. I'm starting to feel elderly.

The other thing I...

Unfortunately, little things matter over time.

The other thing I noticed on this chart, below the box, it says, all zoning data subject to verification by the town of Orange. I don't recall ever seeing that kind of notation before.

I don't either. That's kind of the job they get paid for.

Right. I mean, why would that... They're saying, here's the map. Here's the map, but... But if it's right, if you think it's right.

Yeah.

Right, Paul? I mean... I've never seen it before.

It's all stuff he added, yes. All zoning data subject to verification by the town of Orange.

But you can just... Basically, as a paid professional, a licensed engineer or land planner or whatever, it's their job to go into our regulations...

Figure out what you can do.

put the right information on here for us so that we can rely on it based on their professional certification.

And show a site plan that complies with the regulations.

Exactly. Or call out why it doesn't.

Right.

You know, so...

So it's not up to us to decide whether it complies. Well, it is. It is. But in the first instance, we're relying on what they tell us is in the field. So that language, I don't know, the way I read it, Maybe somebody reads it differently. But again, all zoning data is subject to verification by the town of Orange.

Zoning data, would that just be the zoning district?

No, everything that's in the table, right? Basically, he's saying, hey, I think I got it right. Let me know if I'm wrong.

He's the one that put it all in. Exactly.

Just take the white out. Well, when he shows on the map, When he draws a setback line, we rely on the fact that it's 25.7 feet. Yeah. It's not just what's in that chart, but it's what's on this map as well. Right. He says it's 25.7, and we say, okay.

We're supposed to rely on it.

That complies.

Just ask him to delete those two things and work it out. Show it to Steve when you get it done. Right?

What's the other one he's got to delete? Just the elderly. Yeah, the elderly part. Oh, just his little CYA. Yeah, exactly. His little, yeah. Just a little blurb. Okay, okay, yeah. At the bottom of that box.

His insurance disclaimer.

Exactly.

All right. Do you have anything else you want to add? No. Any other questions you guys have? No. Does anybody in the public have any comment on the application? Okay. Nobody raised their hand on that. All right. We have all the sign-offs from the municipal department heads, right? We do, yes.

Everybody who's supposed to look at this has looked at it. Building official signed off. Brian, as we mentioned, health sanitarian signed off. The other one would be me as wetlands, and they were... Quite a distance from the wetlands here. 117 feet, which is outside of any review area. Okay. All right.

Okay. Then we're all set. You can take your book. Do we need any other information before we can close the public hearing?

I think so. It's exactly what we... Well, I'm sorry. Close the public hearing. Yeah.

All right, then. I'll take a motion to close the public hearing, please. So moved. We have a motion to close the public hearing. Do we have a second? Second. Second by Commissioner McGuire. Any further discussion on that motion? All right. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay. Paul, do you want to start us off?

This is exactly what we're, with the addition of Kevin's handiwork of elderly apartments, is exactly what we're looking for, allowing people who would have ordinarily maybe moved out to stay in the town. And I think this is exactly what the statute or the regulation allows.

Yeah, I agree. I think it meets all the requirements of Section 383.140, which are the special standards for conversion of a single family dwelling to accommodate elderly housing. I think there's no question on that. The applicant is certified that there will be a person in residence there who's 55 or older and is prepared to recertify that every January 31st?

Every year by January 31st.

So with that, I'm in favor of looking for a motion.

Unless anyone has any further comment.

Okay, let's have a motion then. I'll move that we approve the application for conversion of a single-family dwelling to accommodate an elderly apartment submitted by Donald and Jacqueline Check for the property known as 588 Dogwood Road to construct in addition to accommodate an elderly in-law apartment with a garage below.

Subject to?

Subject to the... Two minor modifications on the plan for, should I specifically think, noting?

Changing the nomenclature to elderly.

Elderly apartment and also deleting the reference to subject on that grid.

The language is all zoning data subject to verification by the town. Should be deleted. All right, we have a motion. Do we have a second?

Your turn.

Second. It's been seconded. Any further discussion? Nope. All right. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay, very good.

Congratulations. Good luck with the project. If you're going to explore that situation, do it sooner rather than later. Oh, definitely, yes.

All right, very good. Thank you. Or ignore it.

Or ignore it. I think it made a lot of sense, though.

Actually, it looks like Tom's not going to make it. All right. And the only other item on our agenda for this evening is the application to amend the zoning map submitted by 284 Racebrook Road, LLC. Is the applicant present? Please come to the podium. Do you want to introduce yourself?

Kenneth Thomas, property owner, representative 284 Raishbrook Road, LLC.

Okay. Do you want to explain the application to us?

My name is Kenneth Thomas. I'm the owner of 284 Raishbrook Road, LLC and a resident of the town of Orange. The subject parcels are lots 2A and B, Indian River Road. lot two A is .75 acres and lot two B is .99 acres. Both of the lots are flat and buildable. They've always been vacant land and have been owned by the same owner of 284 Raidersbrook Road, which is a property that we recently acquired. 284 Raidersbrook Road has been zoned C1 and is used for commercial purposes. We request the change of zone from an LI3 to a C1. This site is bordered on the north. By 284 Racebrook Road, a site that we own in a C1 zone. East by Racebrook Road in a site opposite the street which is a C1 zone. South by Indian River Road and properties across the street which are LI3. west by 250 Indian River Road, a site zoned LI3, and Crosby Pond. Many of the sites in the block between Indian River Road and Post Road, between South Lambert Road and Racebrook Road are all used for commercial purposes. This section of Indian River Road and Racebrook Road south of the Post Road is a feeder road to I-95. We also on the site 284 Racebrook Road in the C1 zone and would like to zone for the two sites under the position to match the zone for the site at 284 Racebrook Road so we can combine these parcels for purposes similar to the uses at 284 Racebrook Road. When 284 Racebrook site was originally developed, there was an access opening created in a curb line that connects these two parcels under consideration in which the prior owner intended to use them for similar purposes to 284 Racebrook Road. Most if not all of the uses and surrounding lots are permitted in a C1 zone. Okay. Kenneth, what's currently on 284? There's an office building and a building that has automotive use.

And then the second lot is the small arc that leads up to the pond?

Yeah, there's actually two lots in that, which are 284A and B. 2A and 2B. It's all in the hashed area on your map there.

The pond is... to the south of the... of the lots in question, right? Yes.

So... the... the LI, uh... three zone... was, uh... specifically created to be a transition. You might have been on when that happened because they put in the Christmas tree shop, the old Christmas tree shop. And you rezoned that whole piece to LI3 just before that, right? I think that's probably correct. Yeah. And so the LI3 zone currently allows, although it's via a special permit, you know special use consideration all the same commercial uses that are in C1 it only allows limited coverage limited to 5,000 square feet per acre in LI3 of building yes which I believe all of those sites in that zone are greater than 5,000 per acre

It's 383.90 that he's referring to, Kevin. And it's uses that are allowed by special permit. And subsection A says, stores and other buildings where goods are sold or services provided primarily at retail provided, one, minimum lot size is at least two acres. Two, building square footage does not exceed 5,000 square feet per acre on properties containing less than five acres, and B, 6,500 square feet per acre on properties containing five or more acres. Minimum frontage, 200 feet. So those are the circumstances under which retail use is allowed.

Yes.

Permitted uses would not include... Well, you could have an indoor sit-down style restaurant as a permitted as of right use. Repairing and servicing of motor vehicles when accessory to another use permitted on the site. Office buildings, laboratories for research in manufacture, processing, or light assembly of goods.

My sites are kind of under two acres, too. So I'm trying to combine them with the LI1, which is the 284 Ridgebrook Road site. And the 284 Ridgebrook Road is C1 right now? Yes.

The one that's been developed? Yes. And under the C1 zone, your constraints on development would be the maximum floor area, which only comes into play if you do multi-story, would be 50% of the total lot coverage. But you can only have 25% ground coverage. So that's closer to 10,000 square feet an acre.

Yes. I think in the end I have like 1.7 acres and we're going to come back with a proposal to provide 10,000 square feet. So we're just over. A separate application will come in for a site plan for... For a special use permit. For a special use permit? No, it wouldn't be a special use permit, thank you.

No, in a C1.

One that wouldn't need a... Oh, I'm sorry. It would just be a... Right, right, right.

All right, 284 is already there, and if I understand it correctly, you're asking for a change to the C1 for the two, for lots A and B. Yes. Which would give you a total with the 284 of how much?

I think the 3.84.

But we're... Okay. And it would also include lot 11 when you redevelop it? You're going to take down the two existing buildings? No, we're not going to take down any of the buildings. You're going to combine it to reconfigure the lots to a more efficient layout.

Yes, because the front of that lot is only 80 feet wide, so there's really where all the parking is.

Yeah, you don't know those are back there until I drove in. Mm-hmm. Everything always happens at the foundry of anything.

And I'm back to the notice issue. Did we give notice? To the abutters, do we have to?

Notice was not given as far as I know, but it's not a requirement either through the state or our regulations.

Okay. Seems that we may want to look at that.

We're not changing language. We'd be changing the zoning map.

Right.

I think Paul is just asking because...

It'll effectively change what they can build there and make it much different than what people may have been expecting before.

Well, the other thing that occurs, since Connecticut basically made every commercial lot available to housing that middle housing language.

Right.

You know, that wouldn't be in play if it stayed in an LI. Once it goes to a C1, what is that? Now it's entitled to the benefits of the... We don't have the updated regulations in our packet right now, but we have, you know, I think you're looking at if there's two lots, a potential total of 18 units.

We're not planning on bringing housing to the site.

Sometimes it's not about you. It's about who's next.

We're going to develop the site. And if you know my family, we've been in town for a long time.

I'm not trying to disparage you at all, boss. It's just that it's something we've been grappling with and trying to do our job.

Um... That's a good point because in an LI3, as long as it says that it makes dwellings a prohibited use, it protects us from the problem you're talking about.

I'd almost rather do a text change and change the square footage limitations that I don't know why they're there. To allow this kind of a control. I mean, I guess the idea was it's a transition from heavy industry to commercial. So they took the commercial density at 10,000 foot an acre and said, we'll make it 7,000, 6,000, 5,000, 6,000, whatever. And then it'll be an industrial building. But the industrial buildings have pretty good ground coverage, too, I think, when you get to the LI zones.

What's located at 250 Indian River Road?

That's your... 250? Yeah, Indian River. 250 Indian River Road is Hartford Health Care.

Right, that starts the whole...

Hartford HealthCare, followed by Springer Commerce. Across from Tractor Supply.

Tractor Supply is on the other side of Indian River Road. Right, across from that. Is Tractor Supply in the LA3? Yes. Yes, it is.

Better be. Yes.

So he's trying to join the two properties, and he can't go... You can't change the C1 to an LI3 because there's existing buildings there, right?

Right. Well, 284 is already a C1, right?

So that's his problem is he's got to go to C1 because he can't change at all to LI3.

No, but you'd be creating and then they'd be existing nonconforming because of the density. So what he's saying is why doesn't the C1 zone end here? Instead of here.

Right. And what he can do differently is a larger building, is what we're talking about.

It sounds like he's... I'm sorry, this is sort of the discussion we have after he makes a presentation.

Do you mind... Well, but I'm happy to have it with him so he can respond.

Yeah, I think so too. I mean, we're just... So... If the constraint to develop it is the 5,000 square feet because the lots conjoined are less than two acres, and he's got an idea that would be above that but below the 10,000 that would be allowed in the C1 zone, but it'd be more than the five.

Right.

And it's a good plan, so he's like, why not move the line?

Mm-hmm.

I'm sorry, is that about right? 100% right. Okay.

He's also got road access problems, right?

Yeah, because of that narrow lot is a funky shape. Yeah, so the narrow lot gives him the road access. Are you going to be giving yourself like an easement to get... Or I'll combine the lots, yeah.

Road access problems meaning what?

No, when you were saying before that... The frontage. On the curve there, you've already got the access on... Right, but his frontage doesn't really present well for...

certain types of uses you know in that long narrow the original industrial I think when everybody thinks industrial those lots don't fit industrial use it's harmonious with the neighborhood I gotta tell you that well is it though I mean well when we changed the zoning map like we got rid of the training district didn't we have to tell all sorts of folks Got rid of the what? When we got rid of the train district. What is that?

The transit-oriented? Transit-oriented district. Your question, do we have to give the abutting owner's notice?

I don't know if we...

I don't think we... Again, I don't think we did.

No, so we didn't give abutters.

And nothing ever got approved? We got one that was approved, but it was contingent upon the transit, and we never got the train.

So we don't have to do map changes through the... Public hearing? I'm sorry. I was thinking that whole process where you have to send stuff to COG and SCROG or whatever the heck it is.

This did get referred out both to West Haven and to the COG. The COG said back to me, because the parcels are more than 500 feet from the West Haven townwide, it's not required to be heard by the Regional Planning Commission.

Okay. Well, this is another one of those problematic pieces that you wonder what to do to get it from empty to productive on the tax rolls. And it's been empty for how long?

The whole site has been in disrepair probably as long as I've been in town. I mean, the Racebrook Road site is older. These lots have been empty forever.

I think the plan makes some sense.

I mean...

So... I kind of... like... a little information to know that what we're doing is what we think we're doing, meaning the... Is there somewhere on here that is calling out the map block of lots that are referenced in this change? That's in his application.

It's in his application, right, but... Well, this is the zoning map, isn't it?

This is a zoning map, okay, but the parcels he's referenced, you know what I'm saying? It's like I'm trying to see where the parcels referenced in the applications are the parcels we're looking at that are highlighted. It might just be too small for my old eyes.

I think he comments on that in his narrative. Subject parcels are lots 2A and 2B Indian River Road. 2A is 0.75 acres, 2B is 0.99 acres. Both lots are flat and buildable. They have always been vacant land and have always been owned by the owner of 284 Racebrook Road, which is the adjacent commercial site.

So I get it, but the map that we have is three lots, right?

Yes.

Okay. It's three lots? It's three lots. It's the C1 zone that's got the buildings on it with the office building. That's 284 Racebrook. Right. And then it's got land. Right. But he's not looking to change anything with respect to... I understand, but so where on... I'm just saying that...

The other drawing, I think, shows it, no? This is the one I... Oh, this one? No, no, the one straight ahead. The one Ozzie's looking at. This one? Yes.

Yeah. Do you have it, Kevin?

I mean...

I'm looking at it. I don't see map blocking lots someplace.

It's just, you know, I know it's being a little... Are you looking for it on this one? I'm looking for it anywhere.

Well, basically, I think what...

So you're saying here's lot 11, 2A and 2B on this map?

So this is map 23, and then one would be... Oh, I see what you mean.

It's just, so, let's just, let's go through this. I'm sorry, I'm sight challenged.

Would you like that to be noted, Kevin, on the survey or the GIS, which?

Well, this looks like an older map, so I don't know if you'd have access to get that put on here. Easily.

Let's see what... That's a recent survey. The survey was done not too long ago, right?

The wetlands were flagged in March.

But that's essentially 284 Rainsbrook Road, right?

No, this is all three lots.

All three lots are the survey. It includes it. Yeah.

But the building's around 284. Yes.

But the lines that are shown here are lines differentiating between land and pavement or building. If we could get just the lot lines on here with the...

The GIS map doesn't show that? Sorry? The GIS map? The other map that's under the one you're looking at, that doesn't show the lot lines? No.

Well, the purpose of this map was to what?

I guess it really doesn't seem like I needed to bring that map. I seem like I only needed to bring the one to your right. Well... That's just a survey of the entire site that we own. Right.

I mean, that would be part of your plans to... Yeah, that'll be... ...consolidate the three parcels. Yes. What are you thinking, Kevin?

Can you pull up the GIS tax map on your computer and pass it around?

I just, you know, I get it.

It's probably all here. I just, I like it when things are easy. I can actually read them.

You're looking at a block?

Yeah, I just want to see the three lots that if we say, yes, put those two lots into the C1 at some point, that those were the right ones. I mean, you know, it's pretty much that simple. I think they are, but this is a piece of something, so no. All right. So 284 is highlighted there. Right, okay, so, and this is, so it's map 32, block 10, lot 11. Yes. Okay. So then we go to this one. Not a touch screen. It's not a touch screen. Sorry. So we go to 2A. And that says it's 23-1-2A. So now we can cross-reference that. That's the corner lot between Indian River and Racebrook. And we cross-reference that to the narrative. uh, to a, yep, and that is, what, uh, sorry, about, I know I don't want that, I don't want that, I want to know how many, let me see, there we go, all right, 255,

Hey. If you want to use a mouse, you can do that.

Do you want the mouse?

He's on his own.

He's over there. Yeah. All right. And this one's 2B, 23, 1, 2B, 0.98. 0.98, 0.99, 0.75, 0.75. Go back to 2A a second. I just want to see something.

Look at the zone on that. That's this one. Yeah, but look what it says on the map. First one. It says res.

Right here.

And this one said LI3.

Yeah. I'm glad the GIS is wrong. Tell me one of these lots is residential. In the GIS.

We'll call a tie-in bond tomorrow.

All right. So...

Thank you.

So, yeah. You know, the narrative seems to describe what is asked, and it... if we were thinking about doing it, the lots we would be changing are the lots that are graphically represented on here.

And if we do that, let's... I just want to continue with what your thought process was before, which was, let's assume everything is knocked down and we have a C1 zone with 3 point... How many acres total?

3.8.

3.8. What can be produced there? What can be built on that site? in terms of what... What kind of structure would be out of character with the rest of that area? I don't think so.

Well, you could have a fire light there.

Right. Well, you wouldn't see that. To maximize it as residential, which you're not planning, you would keep three lots because you get nine on each of the lots. So you'd get 27. If you commingle them, Then you lose that thing. And then they're not market rate anymore. It goes to the, you'd have to go through the affordable stuff.

Right.

If I understand it correctly. But, so, you know, that, you know. I don't think that's... I mean, we're talking about, you know, an acre and a half here. Mm-hmm. Okay.

And not even... It's not even... It can't even be fully improved. I mean, the pond...

is an impediment to developing the... Well, it is on ground coverage, but the fact that it's a lot is what would give you the ability to build, right? Look where the pond is.

What's that? I don't think you could improve 2B by itself.

There wouldn't be a lot left. Well, as evidenced by the fact that this thing has never been improved in the last 40 years plus.

Eternity, yeah. Never.

So if you were to combine, this is the combination. You have a site that you can do something with.

I mean, basically at the size change we're talking about, you're not talking about a big change for orange.

That's my point.

Either way. This makes it potentially viable.

But it makes it viable to do something. Right. I mean, we understand what's good for the applicant. The question is, what's good for the town?

Well, having vacant pieces of property. That's a good reason. I think so, too. That's a good reason.

And, you know, if the parcels were isolated... not abutting the commercial district, I think I'd feel differently about it.

Right, but they are.

But this creates a contiguous, you know, commercial property, C1 property. But it could be developed with a residential use component, a multi...

But, again, how many? Yeah, if they combine it, it's just nine, I think it was, per acre? Nine per lot. Per lot. So they're not going to do that, right? Doesn't make any sense. No, doesn't.

Okay. No, but a firelight thing would make, might make sense.

That'd be a whole different zone I'd be changing it to. I'd be changing it to LSC if I was going to try to do that.

Well, I'm saying I wonder if you couldn't do that in a commercial zone.

With the new regs. Yeah. Yeah, the new state regs. Well, so you kind of look what's in front of you. So we're looking at the boundary of two zones that at some point were just arbitrarily drawn.

And when they arbitrarily drew these, nothing has happened with these lots.

Right.

For decades. Well, I mean...

They weren't completely arbitrary in that they took the developed post road and the undeveloped Indian River Road and said, well, let's try and get something going on over here.

But what's ended up coming to Indian River Road is more commercial then.

Right.

Where is, again, where is... The store across the street, Indian River? Tractor. Tractor. It's on Prindle Hill. Well, where is that on this map? It's in the LI3. It's on the corner of Indian River and Prindle Hill?

Yes.

So, I mean, you have clearly a commercial property across the street. And on the same side as the Hardman Healthcare? Across Racebrook Road is commercial.

Right.

We're not being asked to change it to residential.

Yeah, so if it's not residential and it's commercial, it just gives them the ability to develop a functioning commercial project.

Which would be harmonious, for lack of a better word, with everything that's already been developed there. Yeah, I mean, it's good for them, but it would also be good for Orange. I think so, too.

All right. Funny how we talk with you and then talk like you're not there at the same time.

Do you have anything you want to add to the application?

No, I mean, you can see where the C1 zone was kind of, as you go down to Boston Post Road, cut through the middle of lots. I don't know how it was ever really drawn there. It wasn't. I don't know really how they ever drew that zone.

They did an offset line from the right.

From the center to post road. Yeah, that's what I figured. It was 200 feet or something. Probably some of those lots are.

Which actually isn't enough for a reasonable commercial development these days.

But when this was drawn, we were talking about a 10,000 square feet being maybe the biggest building on the post road.

Right, yes. But the likelihood is that, as it's presently constituted, that property would never get developed as an LI3 use. Yeah.

I mean, unless you were an owner-operator of a small landscaping company and you put in a 6,000-foot buttler building.

I don't think outdoor storage is permitted.

I was saying before that, you know, like an owner-operator, like...

I know what you're saying, but I don't think it still would be outside storage and stuff. It doesn't really fit in any of your zones.

No, no, I didn't say it would be pretty.

All right.

All right. I think we got to where we need to be on this. Yes, thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it. We don't have any review by any municipal department heads on this, right? And we wouldn't.

Let me double check that. Still getting used to these applications. No, there isn't a page in this application for other department heads. Okay.

Then... Does the Commission think we need to keep the public hearing open to obtain more information from any source, or are we prepared to close the public hearing at this point?

Well, let's run it down. When there's a site plan application, the fire marshal and the police chief and... Everybody. Everybody's going to have a shot, so... Does anyone else really have a dog in the fight at this point?

Right at this point? No. I don't think so. And for the record, let me say there's nobody in the audience at this point. So as far as comment from the public is concerned, it's not going to happen tonight.

Can you just make a quick call? I'm not sure totally. Just be on the safe side and make a quick call for the public.

Okay. Do we have any comment from the public? Hearing none, I would say there is none. Okay. Thank you. Good job. Well, you know, I wrestle with this, too, because it's clearly good for the applicant, which I'm not adverse to.

Do you want to close the public hearing? Yeah.

Let's do that first. Is everybody comfortable with closing the public hearing? Yeah. Okay, then let's have a motion.

So moved.

Do we have a second? Second. It's been seconded. All those in favor of closing the public hearing? Aye. What I started to say was I wrestle with these kind of applications because it's clear what the benefit is to the applicant. And I'm not adverse to the applicant being benefited. But the real question is, is it good for the town? If the applicant were involved, would this be something we'd pick up on our own and do?

Probably not. We probably wouldn't because we're not we're not dealing with the edge, the boundary conditions that set up the question. Right. You know, we know that there's an edge between these two things. The question gets put to us of, well, If you move it here, this is the benefit. And, you know, if you leave it there, that's the detriment.

And we've seen it. I mean, listen, we have... Obviously, we've got to deal with what's in front of us, either yay or nay. But we know that if we don't do anything, there's no evidence that this is ever going to change. It's a tough... These are tough... Was it the LI3? It's a tough build. I don't think we've had any applications even on this. I know you're new, but I don't think we've had any.

No, it's been undeveloped for a long, long time. And it probably will stay that way.

And you can see that some of the uses in that LI3 zone show a level of struggle in that you see the amusement rides across the street and that little side street that goes out until you get to some bigger parcels that are truly industrial. Right. Um, you know, but the, I do think that the town of the plan of conservation and development supports the idea of both reuse and development of economic, you know, you know, parcels in the commercial districts. Um, Enhance the industrial sector opportunities of small business. I don't think per se that was a zone that was circled out as a place to do things like fire lights.

It's too small for them to have dealt with it, I think.

My only struggle is that because of the age of the post road commercial properties, there are that smattering of little lots that might be developed as random housing under this new stuff. It hasn't happened yet. But we don't even have the pages yet, so I wouldn't expect it for a while.

But given the character of the area there, that seems kind of unlikely.

Yeah.

Well, you know, if you want to live here and you want to pay less than $3,000 a month. But I would rather see a healthy commercial business on the site You know, it's far enough away from the post road that you're not going to have any real traffic getting in and out of it. Maybe directly across from that little cut-through street. What is that that goes behind?

No, the one that Indian River. Oh, yeah, Indian River.

Yeah, sorry, it's still Indian River. Yeah, I forgot that little tail end is called Bracebrook.

I mean, what about, I mean, again, in our regulations, the purpose of the LI3 district is to provide a transition district between the commercial uses on smaller lots along the Boston Post Road and the light industrial uses south of Indian River Road. The district allows certain light industrial uses in office buildings similar to the LI2 district The district also, district allows the special uses subject to special use approval standards, controlled commercial uses and hotel, motel uses, controlled commercial uses.

Yeah, clearly if the applicant came in with a commercial, use for the site under the LI3, it'd get a favorable review, assuming geometry. The question is, you know, if it's not going to get done because you can't get the income side of the equation to work because you don't have enough building there to make it worthwhile, you know, then it just stays foul.

Right, and that's what we're talking about. It was good in concept, I think. Certainly make, I mean, what you said in terms of the intention of the LI3 makes sense. It just doesn't make sense in the application.

Yeah, and we've been persuaded to allow retail uses in the LI3 zone before.

All over. Yeah. So it's really just a question of to get this one problematic piece done. Similar to the analysis you used when you approved the gas station. Uh-oh. It was a problematic site because of topography and a whole bunch of things. Mm-hmm. You know, there was just a lot of shoddy stuff on it, and now there's something that'll be worthwhile. That's a nice way to say that.

Yeah.

All right.

You looking for a moment? I think the other thing, you mentioned the word harmonious. I mean, that doesn't apply, I don't think. It doesn't. But it does apply with respect to a special use permit application. And I think you know, commercial use in that particular parcel, those parcels, I think it makes sense. And in that, it's a use similar to what's...

Already there.

Yeah, what's already there.

And it takes undeveloped... Tractor supply across the street.

And that's become, you know, that's become... highly used for medical, that whole area, and assisted living, right? Yeah, no, it's a vibrant part of the town right now. It's hard to say that that's light industrial, really, the part along Indian River Road.

Although the reason I wasn't on the board, so it's, you know, really the traffic counts on Indian River don't support retail very well. But if Big Y goes in, that should be a catalyst and draw some traffic away from the post road.

But that's all part of the issues the applicant's got to deal with later on when he comes in with a state plan application. Yeah. I mean, traffic being one of them, because I thought about the question of Is this potentially going to cause... Traffic generator? Yeah, greater traffic in the area. But this is too preliminary. We're being asked to change the zoning map.

And you couldn't put something on there that will change how bad things are at that intersection.

Well, this gives the town a chance to actually get something productive in that area for these... two little lots that are, you know, from evidence that has been presented so far over the last 30 or 40 years, that's not going to change unless we do, unless we, you know, something comes in like an application.

Right. Okay. All right, so we've closed the public hearing. Is someone prepared to make a motion? Is there any reason why we want to hold this over for...

You want to put the – do you want to do those indications on the map? No. Okay.

No, you're clear on what the changes are.

Yes, we did our diligence.

Yes.

You know, the question is, do you – I mean, do you want to act or do you want to – Eliminate? Yes. Is anything going to change between now and two weeks from now? No.

No. Nope. then I'm prepared to hear a motion on this application.

I'll move that we approve the application. Oh, I'm sorry.

So what I'm thinking is that... Yeah, you should talk before he makes his motion.

Yeah, go. He didn't make it yet. I didn't. No. So the other thing is, down, if you drive this area, right, the parcel across the street is a field now. Yes. Which probably isn't a tract. It's commercial because it's down there all on its own. Jay, which one are you talking about? Four. He's saying that the commercial...

Behind the gas station. Underneath the gas station. On the opposite side of Racebrook Road.

They're trying to do something there.

Yeah, you can, you know, sometimes when development happens, it can spur on other things. You know, there's a synergy that happens.

Instead of being overgrown fields, they could be something useful. Maybe it'll spur across the street, too.

That was the thinking on Firelight. All right. What was? Well, they would become sort of its own little neighborhood where, you know, people live there, shop there, go to the post office there, get their sandwiches, you know. Yeah. I don't know. They filled out a lot.

They certainly filled out a lot of the commercial on the bottom floor.

Yeah. Yeah. That was a good point, sir. All right. Getting back to our motion then.

Yeah. a move that we approve the application to amend the zoning map submitted by 284 Racebrook Road, LLC. It's a request to change the two properties known as... Oh, there it is. Map Block and Lot 23-1-2A and 23-1-2B. Is that the proper designation? Yes. Okay. To comprising a total of 3.66 acres from LI... I'm sorry, Light Industrial District to the commercial C1 district.

The 3.66 includes the 1.84.

Oh, it really does. So it's changing before we... Before I amend my motion, it should be down to one, what is it, one point? 1.74. Yeah, that's what I thought, okay. So I'll amend my motion to say that it's a request to change the two properties known as map block and lot 23-1-2A and 23-1-2B, comprising a total of 1.74 acres from light industrial district number three to the commercial C1 district.

I don't think that's quite right.

Damn.

It was so close. Lot 2A is .75 acres. Lot 2B is .99 acres. So we had... 1.74. 1.74. I'm back to being right. That's correct. That's what he said. Is that what you said? I mean, not the last time.

No, the time I stopped him, he said 3.7. I'll try it. Let's take another one. All right. Go ahead.

Start from the beginning. All right. Application to amend, I move to approve the application to amend the zoning map submitted by 284 Racebrook Road, LLC. To request the change to properties known as map block and lot 23-1-2A and 23-1-2B comprising a total of 1.74 acres from light industrial district number three to this commercial C1 district.

Okay, very good. We have a motion to approve the application. Do we have a second? Second. It's been seconded. Any further discussion?

No.

Okay, all those in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay, none opposed. Sure. All right, good. Go forth and build. The third public hearing tonight, as I mentioned, is going to go off to the next meeting. So that completes our agenda, and I'm prepared to entertain a motion to adjourn.

So moved.

Do we have a motion to adjourn? Do we have a second? Second. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Okay, very good. Thank you.