Plan & Zoning - Regular Meeting

All right, we're live. All right, very good. Thank you, Chris. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the April 21st, 2026 meeting of the Orange Town Plan and Zoning Commission. I am Commissioner Azie Parent, and seated at the table tonight, Tom Taranti, Paul Kaplan, Jenny Bowser, Recording Secretary, Kevin Cornell, Jack, Zoning Administrator.

All right. Well, looks like we're missing uh Commissioner Magcguire. He'll probably be along any minute, so we'll get started. Uh, first item on our agenda is a review of the minutes from the April 7, 2026 meeting. I just add a couple of things on it. Um on the second page, okay,

under bond release request, uh then the next paragraph and bold letters, Commissioner Cornell starts. Commissioner Cornell made a motion to approve the release of the bond release. I just just seemed redundant to me. I would take out the release of Okay. So So it says to approve the bond release request. That's what I had initially, but then I wasn't sure. So good. Got it. All right. On the next page, one, two, three, four, five, six, six paragraphs down starts Nancy Zalinski.

Second line, and the commission stated that the issue would be addressed in the site plan stage. I I thought it would be better to say would have to be addressed. And then I would add by the applicant or by any applicant uh in the site plan stage of the process because keep in mind we approved a text amendment you know an amendment to regulations. I just don't want to so you're saying to um would have to be addressed by any applicant in the site plan stage of the process. Yes. Thank you. And the rest was fine with me. Thank you.

Okay, Kevin. Tom, I'm good. I abstain. Yes. Oh, that's right. You're out. You were out last week. Okay. Yes, please move to approve the um minutes of the What's the date on this thing? April 7th, 2026 meeting as amended. Second. All right. We have a motion to approve the minutes. It's been seconded. All those in favor? I I. One abstension. Got it. All right. Uh, item two on our agenda, old business. Uh, do we have anything we want to bring up under that topic? I take it our text amendment was it's all squared away from the from the last meeting.

Correct. Yes. On Peek Lane. Yep. Um Owen sent it over to me. Uh, I had attorney Sharp and him communicate. Everything's squared away. So yeah, it was effective Tuesday Tuesday last week, I think. Yeah. 14th. Tuesday the 14th. Okay. All right. Very good. Anybody else under old business? Uh we're going to get Owen on our agenda again, right? For

I think Owen wants to maybe set something up next week if you and I are available. He's got a first draft of some regulations that we want to address before that January or uh July 1 deadline for the new bill that comes out. Some regulation amendments. Some amendments. Yeah. Okay. I have not dove into them yet. You know, I can't tell you the ins and outs. Um we we had been suggested a couple of times to hire a planner.

Um is when do we think that would be an appropriate course to start taking? Definitely something we, you know, should include Owen on. Um, it's really up to the board. I mean, do we want to do this all in one fell swoop or kind of peacemeal it as these effective dates creep closer? But I think that's totally up to I think that you have when you hire somebody to clean house, you don't bring them in for the living room and then the bedroom. So, I I'd get the I'd get the approval to hire the What's the process to get approval? It's probably going to be similar as the POCD process. We got to take it to the put it out. Yeah. Put it out to bid,

right? Um, whoever, you know, submits a a a bid, comes in front of us, gives their spiel, and we go from there. How do we uh Oz, does that come from us or I don't know. I don't remember. We we would have to initiate it. I mean, keep in mind, we'd have to, you know, have money in the budget, too. That's why I'm asking. Yeah. Yeah. Um budgets. I would have to check with the finance department, but, you know, we would have to let them know that in the budget for 2027 to 2028, I think we're already on now. Is this something even the board of selectment needs to take a look at? I mean, do they have to give their input on, you know,

well, they're going to approve our budget if they if they approve our budget, right? I think we have there's no sense in moving any No, I think we have to approach the finance board first and say, you know, listen, we're uh in the near future planning on on hiring a consultant to do a comprehensive overhaul of our regs. We're planning on it being, you know, somewhere in this range. If they give us the money, then we can, I think, initiate it from there. um and put it out to bid. I mean, we wouldn't be doing a comprehensive overhaul of our regs were it not for the change of

the change in the law, the recent change in the law. So, I don't know. I don't know that we necessarily need to I hear what you're saying. and get it all done at once. Whatever we But, you know, it may be uh well, it seems like in addition to the changes generated by the recent uh you know, legislative fiats from Hartford. We also have or seem to keep running into a lot of uh old uh quirky

uh things that would be nice to address, you know, or just have a fresh set of eyes on uh rather than running into them when we're sitting at a board going, "Why the heck?" Yeah. Why the heck does that person get to do that? I just don't want all new regulations, you know, because No, no, no. I want to start from what we have. Yes. Oh, no. No. Start from what you have. Yes. And uh you know, revise them as as we think necessary. But Right. Well, why don't you start getting uh finding out what the process is for getting Yeah. I I'll speak with the finance department and see, you know, obviously got to know a range of cost here

and you and and who Yeah. And if we put it out to bid, we have to be able to explain what it is we're looking for. Maybe what I'll do is maybe I will call BFJ who did our POCD and just say, listen, you know, do you have a ballpark for what you guys usually, you know, price these these this work out for? And an order of magnitude so you know what we're talk you're you're going to be asking for. I don't know if we're asking for 10,000 or 100,000, you know. Um, well, we're not asking to rewrite. We're asking them to review, make suggestions, but on a comprehensive basis, address the legislative change,

you know, fix any inconsistencies. I mean, you know, to the extent that for sure they might, this can't be the first time or know that they so they must have some kind of a Oh, no. They uh you got to turn um Yeah. No, they this is something that, you know, consultants do very regularly. Um, I do not want to, you know, start ballparking costs because I really don't know. Frankish, what's his name?

Yeah, Frank Fish. Um, I'll give them a call. You know, maybe they could point me in the right direction there. Um, and then I will talk to finance and say, "Listen, you know, our board is interested in doing a uh, you know, a regulation review, you know, with a consultant. We need to update it in, you know, as a result of this new uh, housing bill." Um, and you know, they'll let us know kind of what the time frame is. I I'm I'm not sure if they're going to say, "Oh, yeah, we can all lot that money, you know, this round or we got to wait." Yeah. I I don't want to tell you guys anything that's not the correct answer. Okay. All right. Anything else under old business? How about under new business?

All right. Uh, Jack, do you have a report? Um, I do. Um, next meeting I am anticipating a bond release being on the agenda. Um, not 100% yet, but this is for 449 Boston Post Road, which is the former Chef's Emporium. They did the daycare there. Um, the applicant reached out to me last week, was asking for the bond. I requested a couple more plantings in the back there because that is our residential border there. Um, so he is getting that done, but other than that, site work is is Nobody else needs signoffs.

Um, no, they've given me the asbuilt. Uh, I'm Yeah, they I think they have their CEO actually from the the building department or close to it, I should say. Um, but as far as site work goes that we be holding the bond, that's that's really it. Um, but hopefully before the next meeting, they'll call me, you know, for an inspection to make sure everything's planted back there. And then we have two elderly conversion applications that will be on our next agenda for uh houses. Two residential houses. Yeah. One one was just submitted 5 minutes before the end of the day today. So I'll have the legal notice going out. This is for a second uh accessory. Exactly. Um for for an elderly conversion. Yeah. We avoid au here. Yeah. Sorry about that.

Yeah. Um other than that. All right. That's about it. That's it. Okay. All right. So, the only thing left on our agenda, uh, we have two, uh, public hearing matters. Uh, one of which is the, um, soil, uh, and erosion sediment control application. I don't think we're going to have the applicant on that one. The applicant is here tonight. I think he has maybe one or two updated documents for us, but not I guess what I'm getting at, there seems to be I'm sure a lot of the nice folks here are not here for the sign application. I would think not.

Okay. Does somebody from the audience want to you all all here on the same matter for the most part? Clinic for property tax exemption. No. Um I know that the tax were the assessors. Yeah. Were they were here just before that may have been Shannon here in the lower level. Jenny, did Shannon tell us she was leaving? We just spoke with the assessor on our way down. She the assistant from the assessor said that she was done for the night.

Well, I got here at 6:30. They were wrapping up. Was there was there other days? Maybe there was two days. No, this was April 21st. You hear at 7 p.m. I'm sorry about that. Yeah, they we spoke with her on the way down. She said they they pretty much closed everything up at 6:30. Yeah, apologies for that. You may have to Yeah, I may have to reach out to them tomorrow. We can't help you with that. Unfortunately, let them know for sure. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Sorry for that.

Mark and Shannon in the assessor's office. Yeah. All right. So, let's let's continue. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I added some questions about 143. Yeah. I was some I I'm aware of an issue on party. Is does somebody want to approach the uh the podium and and explain what what this is about?

Um so Karen Sim, I live at 153 Party Mana Road. Um, and I'm here tonight not to necessarily speak for the street, but certainly to voice my concern uh for our fellow neighbors as well as the town of Orange in general. Um, so I hope I can have a couple minutes to speak. I know maybe there's a rule around two, but I hope um it's a good idea. We don't have that.

Well, it's a good thing. Um, so you know, we we were aware that the Met Sally Montana who occupied the residency for like 50 plus years. When she passed away, the estate was selling off her house. It was on the market. It sold and then it was very quiet for a number of months. And then in February, there was a lot of activity going on. So my husband Greg went to the town hall and said, "You know what's going on next door? What have they pulled for permits?" And he was told, "Oh, they asked for a permit to be pulled for an addition for an elderly um relative to live there."

Started before that.

So then we came back and we said, "Wow, they're doing a lot of work for an addition for an elderly person to live there." So we dug a little bit deeper and we went back again to the town zoning and planning. We went to the building department. We went to the first selectman. went to the selectman and we found out through a series of research that this is now um being managed as a business by Evergreen Elderly um Evergreen Senior Living, a company based in Rhode Island who intends to put build an 8- bedroomedroom unit, 2,000 square foot um 2,000galon tank septic and a 9,000 square foot home to house um people with memory care issues. And we understand that this was initially under the Fair Housing Act that they came before and potentially got their approval. So, we also went to Mary Wheelander to solicit some input and help and she gave us a summary document of the Fair Housing Act document in which it states that the person requesting a zoning variance must have notified the town. So, we went back through all of the town meeting minutes to try to find any reference to this and we couldn't find any. So, my first question is, may we see that permit that was requested for an exception to build a corporation, a for-profit um in a residential zone and a residential neighborhood? And then out of curiosity, I'm wondering, is the town being like kind of fooled a little bit because an individual is acting as an individual, making it appear as though they're housing elderly family members when in reality it's a corporation from

Rhode Island. Um, they are also the same corporation that paid the tax bill this year, too. Um, and so I would just love to see how that permit was written, how it got approved. Um, I know when I spoke with Jack, I don't know if he's here. Hi, Jack. Um, that it was basically fair housing, fair housing, fair housing. I'm all for fair housing. For a resident to come in and purchase a home in this in the town of Orange who might have a disability, who might be a different race, I'm all for it. I want as many people to experience this town as possible. I've lived here myself for 20 years. My husband's lived here for 57. Um, it's a wonderful place to bring up your children. I won't don't want to deny people that, but I also don't want to set precedent that an agent coming in operating and selling buying a home is now going to put up a 10 person memory care residence. So, that's um just one point there. Um the other thing is that in the fair ha fair housing act guidelines it says that there can only be a maximum of six bedrooms. The septic plan that was approved in February I want to say is for eight bedrooms and the company's website is for 10 residents. So we've got maximum of six bedrooms, eightbedroom septic and a 10person residence with 247 nursing care, nurses aids, doctors and the like. So what happened to the sixbedrooms? I think we just need to reflect on what the laws are, what the guidelines are of the federal housing act and really enforce that and hold 143 party manner accountable in all of

those facets. Um we can't just say it's fair housing, fair housing, fair housing and they have cart blanch. That's just not what the fair housing act was meant to do or meant to be. might have concerns over a sign. So, will there be a sign? Does anybody know in any of the drawings or design? So, there will not be a sign that says Evergreen Senior Living? No. Okay. There certainly hasn't been any request or indication of that at all. And well, it's not permitted and you would not be allowed to in the residential. It's not permitted in the residential.

Okay. Uh my next concern is that the plan does allow and as was approved for a sixspace parking area. Will those parking areas be marked with lines as in a corporate or commercial parking lot with a handicap sign in the driveway? Uh my answer would be probably no. However, we cannot tell people they can't put stripes in their in their driveway. If they wanted to do that, it is their right to do so. Um as far as the signage, I would say, you know, signage is not allowed in the residential zone. Um, but if somebody's going to put a, you know, a handicap marker, it's probably something I would, you know, hear them out on and see what we can do.

Okay. But we can't tell people they can't, you know, strike their driveway if they decide to. So, another concern is the traffic implications. If there's 10 residents and they all have family members that come to visit on a weekend, a sixperson parking area, i.e. a driveway, will not accommodate that. So, where are they going to park? On the street that provides a safety hazard. on the lawn. I can tell you the minute a car parks on my driveway, I will be calling the police to have them removed because they're trespassing.

So, there's concerns there. Um, another humongous concern is if this corporation goes out of business, you now have a zoned and approved 10 resident housing dwelling. Could it become something else? something much more like a halfway house, a drug treatment center. It is a residential area. Huge concerns. And lastly, the Fair Housing Act obviously is protecting, but what about our own town laws? It says right in our town laws that a dwelling may not have more than four unrelated people renting rooms. That the owner must live in the home. If this is in fact a single family home, there is a minimum size requirement for each bedroom. If you're going to have eight bedrooms housing 10 residents, they have to be greater than 200 square ft. And there is a stipulation right in here that says no rentals are allowed under 30 days. These people, you know, may only live for 10 days. We don't know this. And what about fire safety? Getting 10 residents out with memory care issues out of a fire. Fire department's going to be taxed. What about our ambulance and police? Like bold people die. What am I going to have ambulances coming down the street at all hours of the night? Now, I know I run the risk of that with anybody, but not every house has 10 people living in it. My house has three most of the time. Some only have two. So, there's a lot of concerns. And what's really more troubling is that

without having any transparency, this has happened to us. our wonderful street, Party Manor Road. There's 10 of us. 10 of us on the street. That's it. And now we have this thing living next to us. And it's not the people. I have no issue with anybody. I have love elderly people, but I have a huge issue with the fact that this is a corporation. And they may or may not have been disclosing that. I think this person who has is on all the permits by the way um that we pulled and looked up um his name is I'm just trying to find it. Richard Anderson.

Richard Anderson. Right. So Richard Anderson is he representing himself as an individual or is he knowingly saying I'm from Evergreen Senior Living. I'm acting on behalf of a company. I'm just very concerned about the precedent it sense not only in my neighborhood but in every neighborhood here in Orange, Connecticut. And that the fact that we had no say, we had no transparency. We had no opportunity to come here and speak and ask questions before this started. Um there's been no work on the house for two weeks. They're trying to pour footings, trying to pour a foundation to put an addition on. They hit bedrock. I have it on video of them cracking the stone for 10 minutes because it was literally shaking my house, shaking my windows. And I went out and I don't think they're going to be able to do a foundation because they can't get through the bedrock. So, what are they going to bring dynamite in? Are they going to blast? Like, the implications are just countless. And I just as a concerned citizen and obviously a direct neighbor, um I have a lot of concerns. In other business, I would like to request a variance to put up an 8 foot high fence because I don't want to deal with the 10 people there.

That that I'm sure you're at you're at the wrong place on that. Okay. the uh you know if you if you're looking for a variance, you have to talk to the zoning board of appeals. Okay, I guess I'll go there next. And you don't you don't need a variance for uh for a fence. The higher the fence, the further back you have to get from but we can discuss that. Absolutely. So, I'm going to do Thank you for coming out tonight and and you know, speaking. I'm going to do my best to address a lot of what you said. Okay. If I leave anything unanswered, I'm sorry. Um to begin uh you've started with variances. There's no variance request here. So there is no variance application or permit that anybody you know can produce for you.

This is not something that needs to go in front of the zoning board of appeals. Okay. To be from a single family to a corporation and a company. So my next point is under the Fair Housing Act, it does not matter if it is a business forprofit or a notfor-profit business. They are all treated the same way. If you qualify as a group home by the state code,

then you are allowed to operate this whether it's for for profofit or you are a nonprofit. So, no difference there. Um, this approached me in 2024 and the first thing I did with Mr. Anderson who's representing this company um was I set up a meeting with him, myself and the town attorney Vin Marino at the time. uh our town council uh advised myself as well as the health department that this establishment cannot be treated any differently than a single family home under the Fair Housing Act. Okay.

Acting on that advice, the only requirements that the town can put this applicant through is the same requirements that you or I would be put through for an addition on our home. So, as long as you meet the bulk standards, you meet your setbacks, you meet your ground coverage regulations, then we cannot tell you no because you're you're meeting all the applicable code. So, can I just ask another random question? So, if they're building eight bedrooms, even though the Fair Housing Act limits it to six, does the town of Orange allow for an eightbedroom?

So, I I spoke with the health department today and maybe, you know, there's a miscommunication. May he didn't have the file in front of him. He had told me that they it was a sixbedroom system, but regardless, it's on the it's eight on the permit. I have the permit, right? Like I said, I I asked him today and and he said he believed it it was six, but again, you know, I'm sure he would it's eight on the permit that he signed. Okay. And then maybe it ended up being, you know, less. Again, I'm happy to, you know, confirm that. Um bedrooms, you know, you could have multiple people per bedroom. So just because, you know, if they say 10 residents doesn't mean 10 bedrooms. No. So, just No, I understand that. Just a difference there.

Yeah. No, I I do understand the notion that like they're advertising 10 residents. I mean, they I guess could have private and semi-private rooms, but again, you're not you're charging rent and you're charging room and board. As far as the number of people, I am more than happy to get our current town attorney to to take a look at it and see what we can do there. Um but a couple items that the the residents who are there are non-driving residents and I completely understand your point about hey you know what if everybody's family comes to visit at once

you know if that happens yeah there there may be you know a parking issue but no different than a parking issue where if I decide to have 10 people over my house and they you know somebody needs to park on the road then the likelihood of everybody getting there at once during you know the same day the same time very The difference is you're having a one-time event cookout. Understood. Maybe once a quarter. Most people who have elderly family members are visiting them on the weekends or nights. Understood. And as far as I'm sorry, wait one second.

Um, as far as local code, federal and state code supersede our code. So, a lot of what we have here written on our on our regs are going to get, you know, tossed to the wayside because we have to comply with them, not the other way around, unfortunately. Um, so again, just I'm hoping I I've touched on most of your items. I'm happy to refer it to new council that we have. Um, but at the time, we were told very clearly by town council that we cannot put them through any undue permitting process that a typical single family home would not go through. and they have met that. Um, but as far as, you know, notice to neighbors or variances, none of that not only is required, but none of that is allowed to happen because then it looks like a town is notifying neighbors of, hey, you know, you may want to come out here and do something about this when no notice is required or again allowed under this act.

So, I can do the same thing then if I wanted to sell my house to a person. Sorry, there's a thousand foot separation on sighting. Oh, so you screwed the whole street. Yeah, but but yes, it could happen anywhere else in Orange. Yeah. Okay. We we do have other establishments like this existing already. They they are more for mental and they're state-run. My understanding is that the homes are owned by the state of Connecticut and therefore they are run slightly differently. They're not a person, Richard Anderson, impersonating an individual purchasing a home. Well, I I certainly wouldn't say impersonating anything. I I I don't think that's correct.

He's been very clear that he's running a company. I don't want to Yeah, I don't I don't want to I don't want to debate it. Now, I think, you know, this is really sort of the first time I heard it from Jack at the end of last week. He mentioned it. We didn't have a lengthy discussion about it. Um, but I I did expect some some folks here tonight to to talk about it. Um, so but but the the commission is is unprepared really. Okay. To uh to respond on this. I I think Jack's right. I think we need to uh engage engage our council. Fair. Take a fresh look at the statute and give us advice.

Yeah. Thank you. And I'll I'll be happy to email you everything that I just said tonight. for sure. Um I mean this is not you understand this is not a public hearing. We always take comment from the public. No no I I but it's not on our agenda so we don't have information in front of us to to refer to. So but I think I understand the issues. Okay. I don't think you could not. Yeah. And uh we'll we'll we'll have to figure out absolutely what uh what our obligations are as as a commission. Um, all right. And take it from there. Appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, sir. Mind if I speak for a minute? No. Come right up.

So, it's basically related to the just want to give uh a chance to write your name down. You just say your name and address for the record.

Hi, John Flanigan, 152 Party Manor. and my comments are in regards to the same situation. Uh I understand that this is going to be going for review. Um my disappointment is with the transparency. We haven't found anything in the notes. We haven't seen a sign in front of the house as far as what they're planning to do. On top of that, with all the additions going on, I haven't seen a permit posted anywhere. And yet I'm finding debris in my house. So who is inspecting this? They they pull permits after you know zoning and health through building and they have pulled the necessary building.

That's great. Wait a minute. And so how do you get Hold on a second. We This never came before the commission. No, no, no, no. This is not something that would have before us. The zoning is approved in it. He's asking for construction permits. You know, were they allowed to start work? They have permit. That would be the building department, the town sanitarian. The sanitarian and I take a look before the building department. So they got the necessary approvals for health and zoning and pulling building permits that allowed them to start work is through the building department. Right. So that wouldn't necessarily be a a uh a an act that's open to the public. Correct. If you're going to put it put an addition on your house, you post the permits.

I don't know. Is that true? You'd have to ask the building department, but I don't believe that you you don't need to post it on the like for a convenience. That's my understanding. We can check and we can review this. But my understanding is that all the permits would be posted so that if you wanted to appeal them, you can go before the zoning board without having a permit, you don't know what they're doing. That's through the building department. We they have their zoning and and uh health permits. The building department is a completely different entity. You know, they have their own rules. Whether it has to be posted on the door, I don't know. Everything is online. You could go look at their permits online if you'd like. Yeah, that's what that's what I was gonna ask. I mean, you haven't been denied access. No, I haven't. But I don't check every night to see.

No, I know. But under the circumstances, if you wanted to go look at them now, you could, I assume. Absolutely. Like I said, this is in the act of transparency. Normally, I'm accustomed to seeing people post what they're doing, posting their permits. in a situation where you have an LLC coming in. You would think they would be putting a sign up or something. They're not allowed any signage. So, but they have a website. All right. They can. All right. Anything else? That's all. No, thank you. All right. Thank you. Is there anything anything else on this? I mean, different than what we already went through. Um, I think my concerns would be

So, we we just got to have you on the mic. Sorry. Use your name and address for the record, please. Ryan Mahaliaak. It's M I H A L Y A K. And I live at 129 Cherry Hill Road, uh, in Orange. So, I I think we've kind of beat this to a dead horse at this point where we've I know we have no idea we could beat it to We do it all the time.

We do it all the time. And I I think it almost feels like this is not the appropriate arena for it at this point. And maybe it should be with either I don't know if there's a public hearing or something at this point that would be more appropriate or shifting it more to like a building department question. Well, that's what we're going to get the town attorney to tell us. Okay. Because he's going to review the uh fair housing laws and uh the facts and circumstances, the building permits, whatever. and he's going to give us some advice as to what we need to do as a commission. So when he gives that advice, are we going to bring it up under old business so that people could

I think we should put it on the agenda? Oh, put it on the agenda. Okay. And what? So the agendas are posted on the website also. Uh every uh was it third first and third Tuesday? You'd think I would know this. I think our next meeting is made on a commission 20 years. Um, so it'll be available to you uh also not only here but on the uh it's broadcast on uh Ogat. I think we we live stream it on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I know a couple of my neighbors I've spoken to as well have the same general concerns about this type of thing being built in in the neighborhood. I didn't recognize the size of how big this facility is going to be, which is going to dwarf some of the houses in the neighborhood. It's just going to be very big. And if you look at the website compared to what's there now to what they're making it look like,

it's really going to be a lot different than what the scope scope of these neighborhoods really are and what they were zoned for originally. I don't I know that state law is what it is and hopefully maybe we could have a route with our state representatives going forward and hopefully that brings some type of fruition to this. But I just wanted to get myself on record about just the displeasure of of what's going on and and also with the transparency of this. It's it's obviously they're trying to keep it from being known. It's been a a year and a half since they bought this property. It was under private ownership. Now they've changed it to an LLC. So it seems like I get it. That's how business works sometimes. But it's just frustrating as somebody I've been in the neighborhood for five years now. I came from West Haven. It was all small little capes. It's not something that we ever really had to think of. I also did live up the street from Serest, which is a larger residential facility. Um, and we dealt with a lot of of 911 calls and and residents coming up the street at times. So, especially that facility was all senior citizens, whatnot. So, it's just a general concern of in our neighborhood. How is this going to change things going forward? when we bought a home in a single family residential area. I probably would have considered differently if I knew a facility like this was going to be built there.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for your time. All right. So, let's let's leave it at that. If one question, so when the You got You have to come up. We got We got to get you on the mic. Sorry. Come up again. So, I say my name again. Uh yeah, kind of. Karen Sim 153 party manner. So is there a way to get like on a distribution of when the meeting minutes are done and when you do find out information like is there a way I can give you our email address and you can just send them to me so I don't have to we we have an agenda group. Uh the minutes are posted in the uh town cler I think actually Mary puts them online. I believe she does

I believe the town clerk puts the meeting minutes of all commissions online. Yes, they are within within two or three days. The agendas are always filed with the town clerk and pop. Yes. Yeah. And we have an agenda group. So you can get a not uh the agenda before every meeting. Okay. You know. Yeah. Know it. We did a full search of the entire town website and there was never a mention of 143 party manner in every meeting. There's no there's no minutes on it. There hasn't been a meeting right now. I understand why. So, but I can tell you though that uh we're going to do our research and when we're ready, we will put it on the agenda. Okay. So, we talk about it again. All right. At some point. Can I give you my email? Yes. Okay.

Thank you again. All right. I think we're going to move on at this point. So, next item on our agenda is uh application for temporary special use earth materials removal and filling. uh by Mr. Zusi. This is on 52 Sky View Road. The applicant present? Yes. Good evening. Good evening. Uh should I?

Yeah. You can you can hand them down here. We'll Oh, okay. Yeah. trying to give five star service. Uh, you know, I'll Oh, there's two different One is the floor plan and one on the Oh, one's the floor plan, one's the survey. One is the survey. Yeah. Gotcha. Just floor plan. You need the survey. Yeah. Survey. Survey. Thank you. And I was able to get the permission from the neighbor, but I couldn't get a print out. Okay. Oh, great. Great. So, if I don't know, I can hand the phone. Um, yeah. How do you guys want to

uh could you is there a way you can email it to me and I could pull it up right? More like a thread. So, it doesn't make sense if I just email you. Okay. Um, you know, I leave he has he has he got permission from the neighboring property owner that we were waiting for and you have it in a thread of text or something? Uh, emails. Emails. He just didn't have a chance to print it before coming here. Okay. So, can you just So, in that in that string of emails, she consents. Yes. Okay. To your plan. To the plan you presented. Yes. And so, I would say please email the string when you get a chance to jack. Okay. Right. All right. Okay. I just don't you know, if the board wants to proceed or want wants to It's I leave that totally up to you guys.

To be honest with you, I mean, I think the the threat of emails is is is nice. Yeah. But I would rather see a letter drafted up and signed by the adjoining owner. Um, and you could help them with that. We could I mean, but I mean, you know, if she has an email with her name at the bottom and says, you know, I have no problem with the application at 52 Sky View Road. A clear reference to the application. Specifically, I mean, on thread on the very last email, I specifically

you you and I will work together tomorrow and I'll take a look at it. If it's adequate, then we'll continue with that. Or if you know, hey, we just need a little, you know, a detail here and there, you know, directly referencing this application, we'll go from there. But I think we'll hold off until next meeting until we get that. Uh, is that the only thing we were waiting for? Do we have all right that I remember? Yeah, I think it was it was the consent of the adjoining property. I believe so as well. I don't I don't want to speak for anybody. and her consent was required as to the site drainage. No, the special permit. It was a special It was because he was downhill from her doing work within a setback within 50 ft of the Yeah. Okay. Right.

Kevin's exactly right. And she she has to consent to that. She had to consent to that. And that is the email that we can we can go over at the next. Is is are the commissioners comfortable with that? I mean, or or would you rather see a No, I'm I'm okay with the concept, but I if if we're going to act on it tonight, I'd like you to take a look at it at least. You don't want to look at it? Oh, yeah. I can look at Yeah. No, I Okay. Well, do we want it or we want to wait? Sure. Would it bother you to wait two more week? Well, what would it be? Uh May four. May May 5th. May 5th. Would that mess up your schedule? Uh I mean, I've been waiting for two years, so Well, that's not a strong

That's not a yes or no, boss. That's so two it's two weeks exactly from tonight. Okay. It's just so in trying to protect each party's rights, you know, it's you know, we like to not be overly formal, but we like to be thorough. and having something written on the record that we've actually looked at that is the back and forth that makes up appropriate consent just helps us, you know, in the future. I understand when people forget things.

I I think the more I think about it, I I prefer to have a letter. Okay. You can I can I can help you, you know. No problem. But it's it should be, you know, addressed signed by the the joining property owner, but addressed to the applicant. Okay. Referencing the referencing the application exactly the way the hearing was held. Yeah. On it and giving her consent to uh the plan. Sounds good to me. And and I'm willing to let that go administratively. So if we wanted to vote on it tonight, okay, I have no objection to doing that and with the understand with the condition that that letter be provided within a week or two,

you know, you set a deadline. I don't want that, you know, open-ended. Why don't we given what you said and I don't disagree with it. I'd rather just put it off for two weeks because, you know, yeah, he's not going to do anything for those two weeks anyhow. He doesn't Well, unless he unless he got the the letter signed tomorrow. I I don't know. But Oh, I see what you're saying. That's all I'm trying to You understand my point? Yeah, completely understand. All right. I mean, do you think this letter is something could be drafted up quickly enough, delivered to your adjoining owner? Would she act on it quickly to sign it? Yeah. You don't know. Let's let's hold this over to the next meeting.

I mean, we have no we have no problem with the application. Okay. So you can you can rest assured that and we don't need an extension as of now. If for any reason this were to go past the next meeting, we would but we're within our 35day time period. Plus, we're prepared to approve the application anyway. So yeah, I mean um so let's do that. Let's hold this over, put it on the agenda for next uh for next week, but talk to uh Jack to get the form of the letter. It's not it's not rocket science. Okay. All right. It is what it is. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. We'll talk tomorrow. You almost get a gold star. Yeah. Half a star. Okay. All right. Final item on our agenda tonight is a petition to amend the orange zoning regulations submitted by Noble Orange LLC. this uh there's the notice. I didn't find it in my either. I didn't see it. Kevin, do you want to read the legal notice for us? I will now that I got it

to appear one time on Tuesday, April 7th, 2026. No, April 14th. Orange TPZC notice of public hearing. Notice is hereby given that on Tuesday, April 21st, 2026, at 7 p.m., the Orange Town Hall, 617 Orange Center Road, the Orange Town Planning and Zoning Commission will conduct a public hearing on the following petition to amend the Orange Zoning Regulations submitted by Noble Orange LLC to amend article 19 of the Orange Zoning Regulations regarding signage in the LI and OP districts. Copy of this notice have been filed to Orangetown Clerk. Additional information is on file with the Orange Zoning Department dated in Orange, Connecticut, the 6th day of April, 2026.

All right. Thank you, Kevin. Uh, good evening everyone. For the record, my name is Luke Morrow. I'm a professional engineer with Sulle Engineering Office at 501 Main Street. How do you spell your last name? M A U R O. Thank you. The Italian way,

not M O R O W. Um, so I'm here tonight um with um from Sole Engineering, 501 uh Main Street, Monroe, Connecticut. Uh representing the applicant who is uh Noble Real Estate Holdings LLC. Um the site is under construction at 88 Marsh Hill Road. Um but essentially um we're here for you before you tonight for a text amendment uh to amend the signage regulations specifically within the LI uh and the OP zone. So, because it's fairly short, I think I'll just read through what our proposed amendment is if everyone's okay with that and just give a little justification as to why we're requesting it. But before I do, um well, although this is not formally in front of you, I think this this would give the basis as to why we're requesting um specifically So um this is section 383-18 uh subsection D um the signage regulations under the LI in the OP zone um regards to the number heightened area. So it reads except as permitted under subsection A there shall be on any lot no more than one sign attached to the ground. There shall be no more than two exterior signs attached to or mounted on a building for each occupancy. Any sign attached to the ground shall not exceed an area of 100 square ft or 200 square ft in aggregate or a height of 15 ft. And at that point, we put a comma and we propose to add uh except that a maximum ground sign height of 18 ft shall be permitted for a community travel center within the LI2 district. And then this is back to the the the regs as they stand. Now, any sign attached to or mounted on a building

shall not extend above the top of the wall to which it is attached or mounted. Exterior signs attached to or mounted on the building shall not have a total combined area greater than 15% of the area of the wall to which they are attached or mounted. On any sign attached to the ground, no portion of the display element shall extend below a height of 10 feet on 10 feet of 10 feet, sorry, unless it is less than a height of 5 ft. And then um we're we're proposing to strike the word provided and then add to the um to the text of the section. However, the display element of a ground sign may be located between the ground level and a height of 10 ft above ground level, provided one, the commission finds that the height, size, and location do not have a negative effect on the health, safety, and welfare of other commercial enterprises or the residents of the town of Orange. And then we were striking the language that said the police chief or his designate has reviewed and approved the height, size, and location of the sign to be replaced with essentially it's an add an ad for a couple other entities to review, but it's the location of the sign is subject to the approval of the zoning enforcement officer, building inspector, police department, andor fire department. So, the reasoning behind some of these changes and and and Jack can um elaborate where I might be misspeaking or or to to kind of fill in some of the gaps. We were trying to rectify the section of the regs with I believe a couple years ago a similar amendment was passed uh for subsection C which was similar uh similar language was added to the LSC and the C zones for the signage. So rather than just getting sent off from the police chief, we basically copied the language uh from subsection C which applies to the LSC and the C zone mean saying that in order for these this

slight waiver from the standards as long as Jack as a zoning enforcement officer and the building inspector, police and her fire are okay with it then we can go ahead and make these uh minor mods to the sign. So we did that with respect local shopping. We did it for it was specifically um the Racebrook Medical Center that brought in that amendment um to allow for a type of sign that and that's in the commercial zones. Commercial zones. Yes. Commercial and LSC zones. Commercial and LSC local shopping center. Yeah. Yeah. Are now 18 ft? No. No. They could have a design element below 10 foot. Okay. It was it was the lower part of it. Correct. They didn't change the height.

Correct. So, so in this case, and you'll see in the graphic in front of you, this was a first take um at what what Noble was looking to pursue here. Um, but when in talking with um Mike, who's here tonight, and and his other uh project managers, um so the building, as you're probably aware, obviously they're going to sell fuel, they're going to sell diesel. So, we have our pricing signage. We have there's three co-enants uh within the building. um a coffee, an ice cream, and a sandwich user. But we would like to um provide a little extra room on that sign for likely a fourth um tenant panel for the use that will come in the future for the rear uh of the site. So that we can basically have because we're only allowed one sign on the site, we'd like to have the four sub panels for the three users in the building and then reserve a panel um for a user that would occupy the back of the site. Therefore, the 15t height would probably get a little bit higher. So, we want to build in some buffer. So, we're asking for a height increase to 18 to account for that. Um, that's the reasoning behind that. So, uh the justification um not much to it, but uh essentially so we're asking for and and the increase from 15 to 18 ft um would strictly be for community travel centers within the LI2 district. So, there's protections for the town. We're not opposed to making it open-ended for the whole zone, but we figured um we would start with just really the reasoning behind us why we were looking for it is because there are a various number of co-enants because it's there's there's multiple tenants within the building and trying to get um uh for marketability reasons. Obviously, it's easier to get a tenant to come and stay if you promise them some signage along the road frontage. So, we didn't think this was over the

top or overbearing, but um so in concert with that slight increase to 18 ft, um you could see there that in order to get those, you know, a reasonable size panel for those co-enants, um you know, we're we're we're proposing that with additional signoffs from Jack, police, fire, and the building department that we would be able to fill in that gap between ground level and 10 ft above with sign off from the various agencies. which I think I think it's that there's no glare and you correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing it's because of glare and for sight distance reasons. That's probably why they want safety sign offs from these other agencies, which we have no problem um you know with soliciting those signoffs and making sure everyone's is okay with it. So that's in a nutshell um you know what what the proposal is. We're happy to answer um any questions, but you know, in our in our mind, you know, for marketability reasons. Um you know, we think it's it's it's a good change to the regs, we think it's warranted, and so we're here before you tonight requesting that you um approve our our regulation amendment.

Okay. Thank you. Uh any questions from the commissioners? I I guess I should and I don't want to speak on behalf of Jack, but I should mention once approved, we would have to come back before you to get the actual sign approved. So, there would be a slight change to this, but I would be back before you likely in a month to actually get the sign location and the size approved. So, this is the first step to allow it. Then, we would be back.

All right. So when we were considering this uh on route one for the medical center, what we were able to determine was the original language was drafted to provide no visual barrier to the sightelines at the entrance and egress drives. and they were able to approve that um the state sighteline requirements generated by the speed of Route One. And I'm sure it's the same on Marshall Road

uh would not be obstructed by the actual placement of the sign for a vehicle at the stop bar. So that is going if we do allow that signage. Yep. That is the major criteria that if we thought you couldn't Yeah. Say the state says it's 350 ft and you can't show us a straight line distance from the stop bar. Sure. From the window. Yep. We're going to say no. Understood. In in in a similar vein, I'm a traffic engineer by trade. So I remember that's why I'm

Yes. So in and it's in a similar vein I've we've trained my landscape architects to make sure our trees are out of sight line or that the canopy is so yes we are fully aware and we are fully prepared to to provide a sighteline um exhibit to show that it would not be uh an obstruction. Then the other uh issue of slightly less importance but it came up in a different context where a commercial establishment was basically turning their entire building into a sign on a corner. Um one with halo lighting is that signage can't be distracting. Signage is supposed to be to tell people where you are and what you do, but it's not supposed to occupy their vision so that they are no longer paying attention to driving. So how bright this sign is at night while you know I mean it's one thing if

the building mounted signage stands out because it's not in your line of travel. when when people put up these pylon signs the the 12 foot I think it's 12 I think yes I believe it's 12 feet as a minimum is required yeah that you know that also becomes important so I mean I see you're making an attempt here to show us that you're not going to be you know advertising girls girls

well the owner is here and I'm sure he can verify we're not yes that's the case Um, Jack, could you uh look at this the rest of Route One and tell us what the maximum height of Pylon signs for the commercial district. Yeah, I sure can. Any sign attached to the ground? Any sign attached to the ground shall not exceed an area of 100 square feet or 200 square feet in aggregate or a height of 25 ft. Yes. Okay. So, 18's less than 25 still.

And and for for what it's worth, the business office park is uh 20 ft. Am I reading that right, Jack? Hold on. We have an dimension. I don't want to misspeak. Um 20 feet in any dimension. So, I guess that would be 20. I I I just wanted some reference uh from

15 to 18 that you know. Yeah. I mean, and it's a little bit of a unique situation because it's one of the few commercial uses that's permitted within the industrial zone. That's so it's a little bit of a a different case. So whereas most industrial users probably don't need to advertise, as one can imagine, it's a little bit different for a gas station type. You got to keep saying community travel center because that was a sales pitch. Yes. Community travel center.

Okay. Um the uh and when you say that you think you may have uh four subtenants, that's not including the second building. So the So there would be three subtenants within the community travel center building. Coffee, a um ice cream,

and a sandwich shop. And then no, no, it would have the Noble logo because they're convenience market. And then um in in the back um where we were we were formally proposing the EV showroom there. That's subject potentially to change to a different type of use, which we have not ironed out what that might be. So we're doing a phase one of construction in the front, but we're we're in our mind reserving the right that that user in the back may want a potential sign. So we're that's why we're asking for the 18 for

your contention is as a second building it will get its own building mounted signage correct allocated to it but since you don't want to turn it into two lots you only get one pilot

correct we're trying we're trying to we're trying to incorporate everything into one pylon site That's That's the goal. I'm not sure, and I haven't looked at it, but I'm not sure we could do two complying lots because I don't think we would get frontage we needed because I don't think the highway ramp would count as frontage. I don't There might be a creative way to do that, but I it would be very creative if we could do that. I'm I'm not quite sure.

Anybody else? I just have one item that I'm just looking at now. Kevin, this might fall under one of those regs that we think is, you know, a little dated or not serving the purpose that we really want it to serve. The LED lighting, we've had this discussion before. We technically do not allow LED lighting or neon lighting in any signage. This strikes me as a very reasonable modern way of displaying, you know, a sign, especially for a community travel center. I am certainly not trying to, you know, stand in the way of this application, but these are the types of signs that I find are popping up more and more often.

What was the one we just approved? The one on the corner of Bullhill Lane. That's a C. That's a C though, right? That's a different zone. different zone but that was shielded neon. What's happening now is that rather than changing the loose sight numbers as gasoline prices change on a daily basis, right? Sorry. Go ahead. It's your application. Go ahead. No, done by I would say you're probably saying it's done by a remote so you can do it and it's it's easier especially if a truck comes in and the price the delivery price changes. So technically it's unshielded

u uh LED lighting and it's not allowed anywhere in orange which I think is the source of many of my more discussions. Yeah. Yeah. I I I think it's something that we should get rid of. Obviously it protects us for the LED flashing revolving window. How do you open that door so to speak, right? And and again, I think the purpose of this application, this is a completely appropriate design and nothing, you know, aimed at taking advantage of that. But but in violation, I just I don't approvable without changing the rack, right? This does not do that, by the way. Well, what if I were to add a line? This rag does not do what?

It doesn't say anything about we So about the the neon prohibit neon lighting. No, it's for this is for all all uh standards for all districts. Is is it is it quiet on it or is it just it doesn't say LED signs, neon lighting, accents, and signs where the source of light is visible are prohibited. Okay, this is for all districts. And this is a discussion I've tried to, you know, initiate several times over the last couple years because it does protect us from those flashing revolving nuisance signs, the current the current configuration,

right? But it does prevent a reasonable you know design from coming in and and you know us reviewing it independent of them. Someone would have to come up with reasonable language that differentiates you know a modestly illuminated steady you know source of illumination from you know the kind of garish thing we're trying to avoid. in all districts. Well, if you're going to do it here, who who's to say that Shell wouldn't go, "Hey, can I upgrade my sign to our new standards,

you know? I mean, they're they're also not flat do, you know? I mean, it would seem to be if you're going to let one person do it, it would seem to be reasonable. No matter what we change it to, would would this be uh allowed with what's being would would this be right now? No. Why Why couldn't you just do LED lighting by special permit? Then we have discretion

from one to the to the next. But I would want the So yes, but there has to be a technical term for LED lighting. What you don't want is that I or at least I personally find very distracting. You're driving down I 95 and an L billboard changes every 20 seconds. Y okay, and it rolls and scrolls. To me, that's a lot different than the alpha numeric of this saying, you know, thank God 247.

How do how do we, you know, so there's probably a technical term for it when it's static? What what if it was um alpha numeric numbers for the sole purpose of displaying gas station prices? That's pretty that would be narrowly tailored uh and allow other gas stations to upgrade if we think that

but I don't think we have an I mean personally I don't have an objection to the the style of this without opening up uh the neon signs that we were discussing on the on the highway. So I I don't have any objection to to this but I certainly don't want to I want to put a limit on it. So, you know, that kind of a suggestion to me is, you know, at least something I would listen to rather than just saying, "Hey, this is a this is a great sign because I think it'll this will look right." But if we're doing it for one filling station, I I think in fairness and recognition of reality, maybe we would consider it, you know, elsewhere,

right? Um, is there a but but it it shows up in a this the prohibition shows up in a separate section that can be dealt with separately and would then apply in all zones. I think that's what we need to do. Yeah. Okay. You know, and then when someone comes up with an equally reasonable thing, right, you know, we don't sit here, we'll have to think about it, right? you know, but right now I mean it seems rather antiquated and you know what comes um

because I'm pretty much thinking they have one. Yeah. I mean I I'll be hon and and yeah, you know, it hasn't really been an interest because we want to protect ourselves from those you know border light the the objectionable lighting that we see. Oh yeah. You know, I I think now we did notice this application for the whole signage article. Yeah. So, if the applicant were to come back with a language to this different section, it would still fall under this application. It wouldn't have to be renoticed. I was going to say you wouldn't have to send out for another 35 days. Exactly. If we and it's we could we could do it in two weeks probably and someone could drive by Valero tonight and see if this is already going on,

which I I think you are probably correct. In my mind's eye, it's going on yellow on a black. Yeah. No, I I I think Commissioner Cornell is correct. Like I said, this is not something, you know, when I drive, this is really not something that I'm targeting, you know, in my enforcement, right? But, you know, it's it's something that for maximum clarity, you know, we we we may want to adjust this language before, you know, makes sense. Yeah. And I think the suggestion by the applicant, you know, is the for this particular one, the subjection is is fine for me, right? The main thing for me is if we can figure out a way to do it throughout the district without us having retained discretion to keep the objectionable lighting

right all districts in all districts. We do have a separate sentence that says no flashing revolving or moving signs are permitted. Period. So that the those are are protected, but LED and neon lighting accents, I think we may want to get specific on where we'd like to see them and where maybe we don't. Right. And and it's the and in particular the the signage that refreshes with different information is personally I don't like.

Right. So, so then for clarification, I guess this is a question on my So, it would only probably be for gas stations, not for any other type of use. Is that fair? I I mean, can you think of anyone else? That's I I could, but they have to come to come to us. Yeah. I mean, someone else might have festival, but I can't think of The only ones I could think of would be like a Walgreens might have a sale and then what the temperature is or something, but that's not as common as obviously a gas. People are using Yeah. like screens a little more than they used to. You know, even restaurants, you know, lunch this price, you know, then they switch for dinner or something. You know,

what section is that? Um, this is that prohibits LEDs is 383-186 standards for all districts. All right. All right. So, you're clear on what? Yeah, I can I can give you a ring in the morning. We could just talk through I think what makes And so, we keep it open. Let's keep it open. But we also want to get the plan that uh Kevin mentioned, the sighteline plan. Well, we we haven't cited this yet. Yes, they haven't. It'll come when when they when the amend It's the same thing. Amendment first, plan second. I I can bring it as for Oh, I see what you're saying.

Yeah. So, you could see what what it would Yes. They've got to come and get your permission by this by the section here. So, they're going to be in place. So, we're Yeah. Okay. Is the commission open, you know, to similar language that we just discussed. Is that okay? Yes. Well, do you want to kick around the 1518 thing because that's the only other point? For me, it's for me it's fine. And I didn't mind the language that we already have taller signs in other sections.

No, no, no, no. There has to be one jerk in everything. But no, I you know I I'm if the rest of the commercial zones if he if they're not, you know, gaining an advantage over the other similarly situated people, right, then you know and 18's less than 25. So still, y still

I have just a couple of uh drafting changes to suggest as long as we're at it. Um, in that item number item number two, the location of the sign is uh I would take out subject to the and have it say the location of the sign is is um the location of the sign is the approval is subject to approval by

no because you already have subject to approval up above the last sentence in B says the display element of a ground sign may be located between the ground level and a height of 10 ft above ground level provided to the location of the sign is approved by it's the uh it's it's awkward the way it is now. Yeah. Right. This there you know and I'll be honest we we kind of took section C as a guide that's why so that was awkward too. Okay. So what so okay so it was so I would say the location of the sign is approved

by the zoning enforcement officer, building inspector, police department. And I would take out the slash or so that it's and fire department. Yeah. And fire department. So, so the whole sentence reads, "However, the display element of a ground sign may be located between the ground level and a height of 10 feet above the ground level, provided the location of the sign is approved by the zoning enforcement officer, building inspector, police department, and fire department." Yeah, I think it should be fire marshal. Fire marshal. Fire marshal. Yes. Very good. I mean, similar to the signoffs, if

that's the case, it should be the police chief. Yeah. police chief as well. Yeah. Okay. Zoning enforcement officer, building inspector, police chief, and fire marshal. Okay. All right. Okay. If there's nothing uh nothing else we need to go over on this application tonight, let's uh agree that we'll hold it open before we close. When do you need documentation by? Um, well, we're going to keep the public hearing open, but in order for for everyone to get enough time, not that there's a lot, but just to make sure everyone's got three, the packets for the next meeting will not go out until the 30th. Okay.

So, anytime before then, I'll I'll give you a ring. We can we can secure this right in the if you get it, you know, after I can email it to the board and then you bring hard copies here. Okay. Yeah. For something this uh this minimal. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for calling that to our attention. Yeah, obviously it would not have been right. Thank you guys. All right, thank you. All right, that concludes our agenda. Move to adjurnn. We have a motion to adjurnn. It's been seconded. All those in favor? I I Okay, thank you. Thank you. Before we uh