Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Hello? Alright. Welcome

to the Thursday, 02/26/2026, land use and environment committee. I'm here with my colleagues. We never discuss if you wanna introduce yourselves or you want me to introduce you. I don't think so. Okay. Okay. So my councilmaid is here. I have

Clark Gilman, and I have Paul Vern. And

so here we are at the beginning of the meeting. Do we have anyone we wanna try to get

a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. Second. Oh, all in favor? I approve. Alright. Do we have a person for public comment? Zero one. Yes. Rebecca? Rebecca.

Potosnik. Hello.

Hello.

Hi.

Hello.

I'm Rebecca Petosnik. I'm the president of the Thurston Housing Land Trust. I just wanted to say hello to this committee. I've not attended this meeting before. I noticed that you had on your agenda the tenant opportunity to purchase as a possible item to consider.

And I just wanted to make sure that the committee members were aware of the Thurston Housing Land Trust and that we're an available resource for the community. We would be a great partner if you do decide to move through with TOPA, or I don't know if you've ever considered COPA, the community opportunity to purchase. But we have the the mission and the infrastructure to to assist with that if the city moves forward. And just this week, I happened to share with Christa and just Jacinda our strategic plan, which in our one of our goals with our portfolio development has four very specific strategies to meet those goals, which would complement TOPA really well. One of our strategies is a rental to ownership strategy, and we're really interested also in doing infill and acquisition rehab.

And then there was one other side thing that I don't know is actually something you're talking about tonight, but I was reading one of the attachments that was your homeownership project final brief looking at twenty twenty four, twenty five. And one thing that stood out to me that I just wanted to mention, I saw that you had an action doing a vacant lands inventory, and it looks like that has not been able to move forward. And I just wanted to share if this is of use to the city. The Thurston Housing Land Trust is about to embark on a project doing a surplus lands inventory for Thurston County, so a little bit different than the vacant lands inventory, but we're engaging with students at the University of Oregon. They're community and regional planning students.

And so we're gonna be finalizing their scope of work in the next month. And so I still have room to refine that scope of work if the city is interested. I mean, we'll definitely share the results of that if you're interested, but we also still have some time if there's any certain data points

that would be

valuable to the city. I'd love to talk to you and see if we could include that so the students could also scoop that in when they do the surplus lands inventory.

That's it. Thank you so much. Yeah.

If you want to, could you put your contact information in the in the chat, and then I'll grab it after?

For me, the chat is disabled.

I can I can send an email retrieve that information for you if you'd like? Okay. Staff will staff will grab it for you.

Okay. Great. Thank you.

Thank you. Any responses from the comment?

That card? Sure. Thank you. Thank you, Rebecca. This is all helpful. And and I I know, you know, over the years, we've looked to the housing land trust to be part of the conversation. And I also just wanna mention that I was just in a food system study planning meeting where your name came up the hour before this. So thank you for being here tonight.

Well, it was funny because I was actually looking to see if this committee was gonna be talking about the food sis food system planning, and then

I saw on the agenda that you were talking about TOPA. So I switched my hats around and, yeah, attending on behalf of the Housing Land Trust.

I just wish to thank you also, Rebecca. I I look forward to having a chance to meet with you, talk about these issues further in the future. Same

for me. I I look forward to here talking to you. I'll reach out, try to set up

the time to talk.

I'm sure staff will be very interested in the the survey. Thank you.

Super. Yeah. Thanks.

All is there anyone else in the participants that'd be interested in public commenting at this time? No hands? Okay. Alright. That that'll be easy. Let's move on to approval of minutes. Can I get a motion?

I move to approve the minutes from our last meeting. Second. All all all ayes? Aye. Alright.

We're moving on to community business. This is the first item is the rent to own tenant opportunity purchase presentation. Alright.

Well, thank you. My name is Krista Lenson. I'm a senior housing program specialist in the community planning and economic development department, and I'll be giving a presentation about rent to own and tenant opportunity to purchase arrangements.

Okay. You can go

to the next slide. So I'm just gonna recap a little bit about how we got here, where this discussion began. So Columbia City Council adopted a rental registry and inspection program. And after receiving some community feedback, the council decided to provide an exemption to property owners who are renting to immediate family members. And at that same time, council directed staff to explore an exemption from the rental registry program for landlords and tenants who have rent to own agreements. So this was added to the 2025 work plan, and staff is bringing it back around since we didn't get

to address it last year.

And then in Olivia's housing action plan and comprehensive plan, it directs the city to consider adopting a tenant opportunity purchase ordinance. The city hired a consultant in 2023 to conduct a study to identify ways for the city to support access to affordable homeownership. The consultant provided some recommendations regarding potential tenant opportunity to purchase and cooperative housing options that the city could consider. Next slide. And so today, I'll present two options for land use to consider, a rent to own exemption from the rental registry and inspection program and the tenant opportunity to purchase policy.

So at this point, staff is just requesting direction from land use on whether to continue exploring one option, both options, neither option. So the information in the presentation today is just meant to be a high level overview to kind of give you a sense of what kinds of resources might be involved if you pursue either or both of these options, some of the risks and benefits of each policy option. And, hopefully, this will help you get a better sense of which direction you might wanna go in the future. But after the presentation today, would be really helpful if also if there's additional information that you need to be able to decide which of either of these you might wanna pursue further. Next slide.

So a rent to own or lease to own arrangement involves a willing landlord and tenant who agreed to terms where a tenant will eventually own the property that they're renting. So in the Olympia context, this would most likely be the sale of single family stick built homes and or potentially manufactured homes. So there is a couple of different common arrangements for how these kinds of purchases can be structured. One is a lease with an option to purchase where the tenant has an option to buy the home if they're able to to pay the landlord the agreed upon price. This can either be in the contract or negotiated at the time of sale, but there's less of a commitment if either party decides not to move forward.

It just provides an option for them to consider. And then a lease purchase is structured more where a tenant would commit to buying the home. Sometimes there's a down payment involved. And if they fall behind on their monthly payments and they're unable to complete those, the seller may reclaim the property or sue for damages. Next slide.

So staff has identified some risks and benefits rent to own arrangements and for the fee. Staff has spoken to advocates who expressed concerns about scams and predatory arrangements that may leave the tenant in a worse position than a traditional rental agreement. So after learning about some of these concerns, staff has determined there could be some substantial risks for the tenant if the city allowed an exception from the rental registry and inspection program for rent to own arrangements unless

there

were some safeguards put in place. So some of those risks, both for city and for

the

individuals, are it's really difficult at this stage to know how many property owners might be interested in this kind of arrangement if the city were to implement a pilot program and how many transactions might result if the city implemented a program. A property sale might not go through for a variety of reasons, and investments either by the tenant or the city if we were to help could be lost if that occurs. Ultimately, it really is still a landlord tenant relationship where the tenant can be affected. The property could need substantial repairs and either may not qualify for financing or present significant unexpected costs to the tenant. Tenants may be held responsible for maintenance and repairs and rent to own agreements, and they may invest time and money into the property that they never recoup.

The property may have a co co owner or have chain of title issues. One example is if the property owner dies, there could be claims by the decedents that the agreement was invalid or the inheritor doesn't want to uphold the terms of the agreement. A landlord may also lose potential revenue if they lock in a purchase price with the tenant that ends up being less than the market value. So then the landlord may have little incentive to keep their agreement unless there are some forms of penalties in place for breaking that contract. Some potential benefits.

It may provide a mutually beneficial arrangement for renters and landlords where it would provide access to homeownership to a renter who might otherwise have difficulty either saving up for a down payment or if they have lower credit score where it would be hard to qualify for financing. It provides long term stability for renters by allowing them to live in the same home long term. Tenant tenants may benefit by locking in a purchase price of the home at at the time they negotiate that with the seller and would not have to compete with other buyers. Landlords may be provided a greater sense of security that the renter will care for the home and maintain their monthly payments if they know that they will eventually own that home. Turnover of tenants can be costly for landlords, and having a long term renter may save time and money for landlords.

And finally, landlords would not have to make some of the cosmetic updates or prepare a home

for sale on the real

estate market if they are going through a private transaction. Next slide. So some of those concerns identified could be mitigated by due diligence and a solid legal contract. So staff has recommended that legal support or guidance provided to ensure that the risks are identified and are adequately addressed for both parties and that responsibilities of both parties are clearly outlined so everyone knows what they're going into. Staff reached out last year to Sound Legal Aid to provide a cost estimate for providing a contract template, educational resources for tenants to understand the risks of these agreements, and an estimated cost for drafting individual contracts.

So this proposal was included in the packet. And South Legal Aid, if any of you are not familiar, they're a community legal aid resource provider, so they most frequently represent tenants in the community and and have seen some of these situations where it might go awry. And I just wanna note that these numbers were provided last year, so they could be subject to change. Alternatively, the city could consider providing the exemption if the renter and landlord both have outside legal representation that are advising them. Additionally, staff would recommend that before a contract is finalized, that the tenant obtains a home inspection report and an appraisal and a title report.

And the city could take different approaches with this. We could require completion of these items in order to qualify for the rental registry exemption. We could provide guidance documents so they understand why these safeguards might be beneficial to them, or we could provide funding to help subsidize these costs for low income households. In late twenty twenty four, when I reached out to some of our local estate professionals, the total cost for those items was estimated to be about $2,000. Excellent.

If I can, I don't have Alright? So moving on to tenant opportunity to purchase. These kinds of policies typically provide a structured time frame and a process where tenants are notified of pending sale and provided an opportunity to purchase the property. In many cases, tenants are also provided a right of first refusal where they can match offers from other parties. Frequently, tenant opportunity to purchase policies can include other parties, such as nonprofit affordable housing organizations, local government, or public housing authorities.

And Rebecca referenced this. This is also known as a community opportunity purchase. So these policies can be applied to various housing types from single family homes to multifamily residences. The city's consultants who completed the affordable home ownership study recommend that the city review Takoma Park, Maryland as an example of a small city who has enacted a tenant opportunity to purchase policy. And the consultants also recommended starting with properties that have 10 or more units just for greater feasibility and especially, you know, cooperative operations after the property is purchased.

If it's run by the residents, it typically works better if there are more individuals to kind of serve on that sort of board function. Kristen,

if I missed you, who recommended

Our consultants on the affordable homeownership study, and that was a private individual, and then Sam Green, who was, at that time, a staff member at the Northwest. I recall

their presentation to us. Yeah. And and I had, like, not to interrupt your presentation, so it it we kind of switched from rent to home, which I Mhmm. Chad is thinking more in terms of a house to this deal is more like a co op opportunity, and we we just made that look kind of abruptly. And I just wanted to make sure I hadn't

I misunderstood the first half. No. You're absolutely right on. Yeah. So I just jumped into the next topic. But I can pause. If if you prefer, I could pause for questions. If you

could go on, I just wanted to make sure that you weren't talking about a coop coops from the beginning, that we were talking about houses.

You're absolutely right. Yeah.

The way

I yeah. The way I think about it in my mind is that the rent down is single family homes, and these are multiplexes, you know, 10 or plus units type situations. Yeah.

Alright. So staff has recently learned that there are some current conversations among advocates to work toward a tenant opportunity to purchase policy at the statewide level. So there's a stakeholder group that plans to convene later this spring to discuss that further, and staff will keep in the loop with these conversations and track that conversation moving forward.

Next slide. So

I outlined some of the risks and benefits of tenant opportunity to purchase policies here. Some some of those risks include unpredictable timing and resources. So the city can't know when a multifamily property may go up for sale and what outside funding sources may be available at that time. The sale of the property could fall through for a number of reasons, including inability to secure financing and difficulty of forming a tenant organization in a short time frame. A property owner may be distressed and need to sell for that reason, and the tenant opportunity to purchase process can add substantial time to the sale process, which is why some cities have adopted some exemptions or policies.

The property might have deferred maintenance, which could lead to significant repairs that the residents may need to address, which would increase the cost to the residents or could lead to difficulty securing financing for the property. Some potential benefits include giving residents an opportunity to complete a purchase and for their offer to be considered before it's sold to another investor. If a property is owned by the residents rather than an investor, there's no profit motive or reason to increase costs beyond operating expenses, which helps keep the housing costs affordable and provides stability to those households. Sharing a cooperative provides residents with an opportunity to build equity rather than paying rent to a third party. If it's structured as a limited equity cooperative, restrictions can be put in place to limit the parties that resale so that the property remains affordable to future residents.

The cost to build housing for low to moderate income households, as we know, is quite significant and typically requires public subsidy. So this option helps keep existing housing affordable for low to moderate income community members. And finally, since residents pay only for the operational expenses, those costs are borne by monthly payments. So this structure hopefully eliminates the need for ongoing public subsidy for operating costs. Residents in these kinds of structures form an association that makes the building wide decisions.

And they only contract with outside providers if needed for professional services, which might be accounting or property maintenance needs. Next slide. So staff has reviewed some reports assessing implementation of other tenant opportunity to purchase policies across The US. And to be successful, there are some supports that are needed to enable residents to purchase a rental property as a cooperative. Fortunately, there are some existing resources in our community that may be utilized or maybe further strengthened to provide this kind of support.

So any city funding should be blended with other available funding sources from other third parties. The model conversion project that's in the homeownership study brief demonstrates how financing could be structured to support resident purchase of a 40 unit building. And in that model, there's a $750,000 grant used to fill financing gaps in order to keep the monthly cost for residents at a reasonable rate. The regional or the regional housing council has an opportunity fund, which is one potential source for this type of funding support. The city may also need to build capacity in our local nonprofit sector to provide technical assistance in one of the areas listed, such as tenant organizing to form an association, help locating financing and conducting due diligence, submitting an offer, or drafting and interpreting real estate documents.

So in the longer term, residents may need support to function as a cooperative, including shared responsibilities and decision making, building maintenance, finances, and accounting. So I do wanna note that the Northwest Cooperative Development Center and Resident Home Communities Northwest provide very similar services for manufactured home communities that have gone up for sale and purchased cooperatively by residents. So the staff person at Rock Northwest performs outreach to the tenants, develops a pro form a, locates financing, and helps determine whether the purchase price is feasible for the residents. Rock Northwest also provides ten years of support for resident cooperatives to make their first decade of operations successful. And they are the entity that has been involved in statewide conversation about a potential tenant opportunity to purchase policy, and they've agreed to keep us informed of those efforts going forward.

And I wanna note, as, you know, Rebecca mentioned in public comments that the Thurston Housing Land Trust could be another potential partner. So in the strategic plan that Rebecca mentioned, they identified conversion of tenant occupied buildings to ownership as one of their strategic goals. And I'd be glad to send that out to y'all afterwards if that would

be helpful. Yeah. I'll copy that.

Next slide. Alright. So that's it for my presentation, but I'd be glad to answer some questions as you discuss these options. Just as a reminder, I am scheduled to come back on this topic in April and in July. So depending on direction from committee, we can adjust those time frames if needed. And if there is specific information you would want me to bring back for at either one of those meetings, feel free to let me know, and

I can plan to do that. Thank you. Comments? Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So I I I don't know. I I think this is great discussion. I'm glad we're talking about this. In my own mind, I think that coops are probably oh, and mobile home purchases are probably structurally more viable than than individual home homes only for this reason that I believe that there are times of lease to home operation you know, agreements going on right now.

And real estate law in the state of Washington would require inspections, you know, I believe, in order to enter into a lease to own operation that's under a real estate contract. And so I don't know. I'd be curious to know why we wouldn't just let the market as it's currently configured handle I'm just talking about the house. It's not because I do wanna separate the two issues pretty extensively. It wasn't clear to me what the need would be to have at least to own contracts.

These these contracts would change over time, and they'd be out of date shortly after they after we put together these templates. Could you just explain to me why these policies would be more beneficial than just the marketplace?

Sure. Yeah. So this really originated from a desire from counsel to say, hey. Is should we exempt these kind of agreements from our rental registry and inspection program? And then hearing from some of the community advocates that there are quite a few kind of scam arrangements.

Not everyone has not everyone has a written contract. Sometimes it's kind of a handshake agreement. And then the tenant ends up in eviction court, and it's basically their word against the other person's word. So, really, you know, my recommendation as staff was if we are going to go forward and accept these properties from an inspection and from registering that we really need to make sure that there are some safeguards in place to protect folks. And so, you know, the that's kind of where it came from and then what led to some of the staff recommendations. I hope that helps.

Yeah. That that helps. I I would be really reluctant to pass a policy that exempted an an inspection in a, you know, the stone operation. It just feels to me like that is creating a vulnerability for the the buyer. Because even if you're living at that that that property, you wouldn't necessarily know the things that people inspect for.

It it's just my own thingy. But oh, but that's what I have initially. I I I like I I like this whole idea of, you know, coops. I guess the other question was, as I understood your your presentation, So someone owns a 12 unit apartment building, and they decide they wanna sell that building. Would there be a a Shell buyer that would manage that property?

Or you know, I I just can't envision exactly how you know, you go to the 12 ranchers and say, you wanna you wanna buy into a co op. Mhmm. Would who would be the managing entity to begin with? Does that make sense as a as a question? Think yeah.

Yeah. I think I think they can be structured in some different ways. You know, one of the things Rebecca mentioned was that community opportunity to purchase. So sometimes there might be a nonprofit who purchases on behalf of the residents or, you know, the residents form their own association, and they could either form, like, an LLC or a nonprofit. And then, really, you know, likelihood is that these are tenants who would need some assistance and technical, you know, support in order to do that.

So that's part of the reason why there's, you know, the longer time frames ability for them to get that outside expertise and support in order to be able to, you know, form the right legal entity to purchase the property.

One other comment I have is, oh, last last year, there was an article in the New York Times regarding, oh, what was going on in Switzerland, I I think. And these were strategies to keep rent low by doing kind of they were essentially rental agreements that can be passed on to from one individual to the next kind of in in in perpetuity that were by by public agencies. It wasn't quite your standard co op, but it was more of a hybrid model. I I should go with some information to follow-up on that.

Yeah. And we if you find anything, feel free to send

it my way. I'll take a look. Thank you. So my interest was also piqued as as Paul was saying. I'm trying to think about, you know, for a very long time, we've had owner carries a contract.

And I think that much like motivation for the rental registry initially, it's trying to create a little bit more both accountability from both sides and the due diligence described because those carrying the contract rent to own sort of agreements don't necessarily have people giving an inspection, appraisal, or making sure that the title isn't clouded. And so if if I think I I I will I hear you don't wanna add another layer or give up an inspection, but I think as long as we have the rental registry with an inspection program that we're saying if if you're in a a rent to own or owners carrying a contract kind of situation, we would wanna require that due diligence and perhaps even facilitate that due diligence if we were gonna exempt them from the inspection program. So that's that's how I see the the single family side. And then I I'm wondering, you you mentioned the opportunity fund and the work we did at the RHC, which was a big scramble because there was a mobile home community or manufactured home community down in the Spaulding Delta that maybe it could happen. And if you can talk about that for minute, because that helps also describe, like, they were scrambling to find big philanthropist sort of financing that would help the willing residents.

You because that that's a good question also about it. Do you just say, okay. You have advanced notice now. Go talk to your 10 neighbors and see if you can come up with $20,000,000.

You know?

Yeah. So that's really where those those technical support organizations come in, like the Rock Northwest group. So they get they also get notified when a community goes up for sale. And then, typically, either the residents reach out or or vice versa and connect and really start to talk about, you know, whether or not it's feasible, you know, what kind of financing there might be available. Sometimes they find that, you know, the property has really significant repair needs, and there's just no way that the residents would be able to pay for, you know, both infrastructure upgrades and the purchase of the property.

So that that technical assistance provider really helps determine, okay, what's what's the state of the property? What can the residents carry in terms of financing? What funding sources are available. And there are some state funds available as well for manufacturing communities that have gone up for sale. So I don't know if that helps answer your question, but or if I'm getting at it, but feel free to cry by.

That's that that's what I was I was just trying to think about, like, when Northwest Cooperative Development was working with us in the first iteration of all this, they were imagining this. What what I understood anyhow was just if we did a requirement for advanced notice and notification to the tenants specifically, that would give them a window of time to try to quickly pull together the whether they could organize the neighbors and whether they could access funds so that they could make a competitive offer to the landlord.

Yes. Okay.

So that's that's yeah.

Yeah. So sorry. I got off track. So the state did pass a law a couple years ago that did require a notice to manufactured home community residents of their ability to compete for the purchase. So that did provide a little extra time for them to determine, you know, whether or not they wanted to submit an offer and for them to work with the outside provider to try to get the financing available.

And so kind of cobbling together all those different funding sources and then more traditional financing, The opportunity fund was really born out of how can we help kind of lower those costs, where can we fill in gaps, and, you know, make it so that the monthly payments by the residents isn't going to be too high still for all income households.

The the one still hold on to it. So I I'm in support of both moving forward to to consider the exemption from the rental registry to somebody who's in an agreement, especially if we have some of these systems so that both parties are clear about what they've entered, and there's something in writing. I think that's really important. And and I I remain really interested in in both the opportunity to purchase and the cooperative options, especially when you described that each time that you have transactions where residents buy from residents, you you take away the the likelihood of that somebody investor after investor flipping it and adding substantial amount to the the rent for mortgage amount just because they're taking profit out of it at at each transaction. So that that that function makes it especially attractive to me.

And and I'll I'll just I'll I'll let Robert talk, and I'm gonna try to pull back up the other thing that I was oh, I don't I do know. Would one of you be able to speak to the the utility fund we're gonna use first at Habitat? Because that's that's been for a small multiplex or a manufactured home community. We've used community development block grant a couple of times, other emergency funds, knowing that if they can't get a sewer hookup or get their septic system repaired, they're likely to lose the whole community. And so we we have a fund, and I don't know how I know it's it's like a first come, first served, fairly limited fund. Could you describe it a little bit?

Yes. We have a handful of incentives passed through, like, 2024 now, I think, with the affordable housing emergency declaration. Declaration. So one of those is similar to the state's connecting housing to infrastructure program, helping to connect utilities, infrastructure, sewer, water is what we heard a lot and costs there. And then, also, we have you know, which may apply for not so much in this case with existing.

It's more around new, but, like, the permit, you know, permit fees. But another incentive that may or may not come into play there is it's called the ten thirty thirty tax exchange, which is could be an incentive for someone who is looking to sell to work with a cooperative or work with the city. I think how we have it structured now in that declaration that ordinances at the city ourselves would be that kind of in between landholder and that we would, you know, issue the with that willing party eminent domain, take the property, they get the tax exchange kind of benefit, and that cooperative or the the new developer is already identified and screened. So another kind of, you know, potential assistance in terms of, you know, potentially if they're needed to be a longer if the seller was wanting, you know, a quicker transaction, we had assurance, you know, that the the cooperative model could work, so you could potentially step in that way. But I I think the infrastructure grant is what you're talking about.

And it's it's not a whole lot of funding, admittedly, but it is there. I believe this body will get an update on the affordable housing development incentives later in the year as well as plan banking strategy.

Thank you. Those I I see those things as being sort of in concert with with these policies. So I was just trying to get my noodle back up to speed on on those efforts of Saranza. Thank you.

I just to go down it, I support the the the to continue working on the rent to own model stuff. Particularly, I wanna I wanna continue to see more details about the safeguards aren't, like, just what other cities are doing around this, just in in the more gradual details of it. Right? Because for me, one one of the things that that came up to me and I wrote down here was the account accounting for funding. Right?

So it was brought up on the risks of if a tenant in a rent to own situation is putting in money into an paying that extra let's say let's say, hypothetically, you're paying, I don't know, 1,800 a month, and then you pay an extra 300 a month for the rent to own as the as the option. Right? And let's say that the landlord pulls out of it. I'm very curious about if other cities, for example, put money into an account just to make sure or not not the city, but in the agreement, they're required to put that money to account. So if they pull out, that interest doesn't just go away for the the the the tenant if the if the deal falls apart.

So things to keep safety net on on this because I think that that's the most concerning thing to me is making sure people are at risk. And then what I'm very supportive, very interested in the TOPA TOPA and community version of that. The couple of things I wrote down that I was I have a couple questions about this. So, you know, I think one of the the pending questions and and the reasons why you would wanna have this model is to keep against, like, private equity, which is a real problem across the country. Right?

I'm I'm curious if other cities have put regulations and to keep try to keep private equity from swooping in and and taking and outbidding and taking over because I've heard that before. Right? But we've heard that from some manufactured housing. It is it's it's and it makes people very nervous being not just outbidded, but, like, just be putting in the position where all of a sudden the rent is much higher. It's private equity swap.

So, again, this is I I think I might have even talked to Clark about this in the past, not in a council meeting, but just just just a conversation because one of the things that private equity will do to avoid laws that say, oh, the purchaser has to be in Washington state, right, or something like that. They'll create an LLC and try to go around that. Right? So I'm I would be very curious about ways if we're looking at these these model ways to ensure that the community isn't getting outbidded because we're trying to put the finances together, right, That's kind of a safeguard. Let's see.

I think that that would be that's the one that I'm the most most concerned about would be that. I'm I'm glad manufacturing got brought up because that immediately came to mind when we're talking about secure financing and the timing issue. I'll be very curious about let's see. I think the other the other thing that caught my my attention is between both models is notification. Right?

When something comes out on the market, I'm assuming that the folks that live there would notify try to notify us or or something like that, but, like, they may they may not know the parking exists until it's too late. And so I don't know if there's something we could have as a city so that we know, or I I don't want us to have our staff member just watch watching market all day. But, you know, I I get nervous about them finding out about something too late in the process. Right? Because something can just go on the market like that and then or they could be talking to someone saying, I'm gonna put this on the market, and then they buy it a week later.

You know what I mean? I I get that the timing is the timing part of this makes me most concerned for folks because they may have they may be money available. It may be systems. They may be all of these incentives that we have a list of, right, opportunities, ways for them to come up with the funding and partners. But if they get notified pretty late and they don't know who to talk to and then they find out about it, that the city has this two months in and suddenly, they they don't have their clock is running out. I I get nervous about that. So those are the things that I that come to mind. Is there any other comments from?

No. I I I think you hit on a very important subject right at the very end there. How to structure it? In fairness to the seller, you know, they they decided, I wanna liquidate this product property. I want it to be done in six months, you know, for for some length of time.

And they they wanna provide what we really almost need is, like, a go between Shell holding holding company almost. It gives time to to sell to the to the tenants or those who are not you know, the the 50% of the tenants who don't wanna buy or or whatever number they are. Finding other buyers, or will they continue as renters? I mean, it is a complicated transaction, and it shouldn't necessarily fall entirely on the seller to accommodate everyone in in in those instances. You know, the the the other thing that you had mentioned about financial holdings and and the financing in the transaction, Banks create escrow accounts all the time is is what they do.

They can create an escrow account in which money could be divided up. I don't think that's that complicated. But I do think that we are being a little bit dangerous for not doing a full inspection at the time of of a real estate transaction because what they inspect for the housing for real estate transactions is much more in-depth than what my understanding of the rental registry inspection is. The rental registry inspection is really pretty top line cosmetic in comparison to what you would get an inspection for in a real estate transaction. Sewer lines, for instance.

These are these are one of the big expenses. Landlord realizes that that the septic tank tank is failing. I'm gonna get out of this property, and that's a $20,000 expense that is is not visible. That would not be something they would be looking for in a rental registry inspection, for instance. So I I don't think using the rental registry as a as a, oh, a safe a safeguard is really very sufficient one way or the other.

Yeah. I think, you know, my intention is, you know, if if the city exempts the properties that where there's a lease to own agreement, that we make sure that there is full inspection done on the property, like, if you were buying a home so that, you know, somebody does enter into one of these contracts that they are going in, you know, knowing what the issues in the home are. And so, you know, I think that that would be a requirement if we were going to, you know, go forward with that. And I think, you know, some of the education for folks around, like, why that would be beneficial to them and why they would, you know, want to have that done before signing a contract for a rent to own agreement will be important in that process.

Can I clarify just a a bit further that it is most definitely staff's recommendation that should you all decide to to move forward on rent to own that the supports, like, help with getting that inspection or at least the education that it should be done in order to have a successful program that that that is needed, that would be needed, whether, you know, the the city is assisting with that in any way financially or if it's just an education piece? But most definitely, staff agrees that anyone who's entered into a a purchase agreement should be aware of the should be aware and and, you know, hopefully, is doing that full inspection home inspection that the the lender would require. The the idea around rent to own was brought forward as another, like, potential for an exemption for a rental registry. So the exemption would be that should the program go forward, that anyone who is a landlord of a rental unit that has a lease to own or rent to own or such agreement would be exempted from registering similar to our current exemption for someone who's working to a family member. And then that exemption would also apply to only the rent rental registry program inspections, which happen every five years.

So, again, the the it is not at all staff's recommendation that someone that's entering into such agreement would not have a a full home inspection to make sure they know what they're getting into and anything they should be aware of.

I I just don't appreciate Paul's concern about timeline, that it it feels like one important thing that we wanna continue to flesh out is there needs to be enough advance notice and enough window of time that it's conceivable that working with a nonprofit advocate, that group of people could could purchase the building, but but also defining that length of time so it's reasonable to the landlord. And then, Kristin, you had mentioned that other cities have used some exceptions, and I I suspect that other other governments have put in sort of a hardship exception. Exception. And you could just speak to what you've seen about this this issue of of time because we're Yeah. We know that there's some pain on both sides, that if it's too short, nobody ever can really try to buy it.

If it's too long, the landlord is unnecessarily foregoing income.

Yeah. Definitely. So in some of the policies that I've looked at, it there's oftentimes, like, an initial time frame where the the residents are notified of the sale and their ability to, you know, indicate their interest. So, you know, they might have forty days, sixty days to say, hey. We're interested in buying this. Give us give us more time to try to connect with technical assistance and to try to put together an offer. Or they might say, like, nope. Not interested. Go ahead and sell the property. And so then there would be another time frame which would allow them some more time for due diligence and to try to find financing.

And so those time frames vary a little bit, but if it's helpful, I can bring that back next time, just a comparison of some of what other cities have done in that regard. And then I've totally lost the second part of your question about timeline.

So the the first piece, let's see, about that that window of time. Oh, boy. I lost it as well. We can check the tape later. Instant replacement.

Oh. Yeah. I this is this is Hannah jumping around. It's something that Robert said that I in full in full in full in support in. That is that it is a real problem in the community that private equity is coming in. This is happening here right now. And I can visualize houses that I visited this summer, this last summer, that were bought by private equity, and the grass hadn't been mowed. Neighbors said that someone had you know, private equity had bought that house, but it just sat there for six months.

And

there are many different reasons they're doing this. And, of course, the Friendly Village example is just horrifying to me of what happened in our community there with the the trailer park being purchased and and the the rent doubling, a bunch of retired people. So if there's a priority for me personally, I do wanna say that that's very high priority that I am in agreement with with you and Robert. And I I I don't know. I I read the articles.

I've I've done minor poking around. I I don't have a solution to this, but but I sure love to find some to to to encourage homeownership by individuals and by corporations.

I just remembered Clark's question. Question. The second part of your question. So whether there's hardship exemptions Yes. For sellers. Some some other cities do exempt certain sellers or transactions, And a couple of them that I can recall are, you know, for hardship reasons since they do have to sell because they're underwater or something. There's also some cities that exempt for, like, a a family member to family member transaction. So I there are some exemptions in certain policies that I have run about. So I can also share some of those if that would be helpful next time.

Okay. So, you know, I I think there's another thought I had about particularly rent to own model where

one of

the concerns is is stuff like maintenance because we're talk just talking about the exception, and a thought that came to me is that is always experience the change that people would be feeling. So I was thinking about how if I was in that situation and I had to go next I I got a I got a well written contract and legal representation through all that. And, you know, I'm wondering, like, do typically do people typically the people who are who are in that lease to own, are they in charge of their own of the maintenance of the building themselves, or would it be the landlord at that point?

I think that that's something that I would recommend that the parties negotiate, but that there is a clearly written plan. Or if there's, like, you know, seasonal maintenance, like gutters or raking or things like that, that that's clearly delineated in their agreement and what things that they're comfortable agreeing to versus, you know, what things the property owner might be responsible for, like, if they were gonna put in a heat pump or, you know, some other big expense that require professional work. I think that that's something actually be clearly outlined and negotiated in their agreement. So I think it can vary depending on the

scope of Okay. The services.

It makes sense because, you know, when Paul mentioned at the top how right. So, gentlemen, you can't mention the model. But it made me think about how in, I guess, the European model of it is rentals are usually what we call condos here, and what they do over there is usually the maintenance of the interior is usually the tenant's responsibility, but the lease is much longer, so it's more stable. So when I was thinking about that maintenance, I was thinking about how some models, it's like the the landlords dealt with certain aspects, and then the interior is done with another. And that's probably outside of what we would be wanting to be doing with this, but it just came to my mind.

And I think and I know we've got I'm I'm glad that we got brought up maybe a separate policy, a separate discussion, but also part of this. But I know that others other cities are dealing with this. I know that last year, New York state looked at I may have brought this up in a pre previous meeting, in fact, that they were looking at doing a delay on private and stuff like that. Like, the instead of banning it outright because they can go around with LLCs, one of the things that they looked at was kinda like the thirty day, sixty day thing with the with with the with the TOPA model would be you could go around and you could set a delay against private equity a certain amount of time so that people locally can purchase a place rather than vice versa. That's the other item that

I was thinking

about. And I and lastly, I wanna mention this, but we're we will be coming back on for some of the manufactured housing stuff later in this year, which has been a lot of work has been done. And then then the and the legislature did some work. So we will be having that conversations soon because that is also part of it. I remember I've talked to folks, colonial states in Southeast Olympia.

They were very concerned about that. The owner is going up there in age, and they're not they don't. But they know the owner well, and they're concerned, rightfully so, because they're retirees, fixed incomes. They're they're concerned about the the future ownership because the person's been there for years, and he's giving up their age, and they don't know don't know the family because they don't live here. And so there are those other factors that I just wanna mention in the room we will be coming around to, and that's something that folks are paying attention to. So is there any other comments, questions? Do you have everything you need from us?

I think so. So I do wanna let you know that the group that was gonna discuss the statewide COBRA Okay. Probably won't be meeting before April, which is when I'm scheduled to come back next. So if you'd like, I can still plan to come back in April and and go into a little bit more detail on some of the areas you have questions about.

I think that would be fine. I mean, especially if if there's anything that ends up coming out of the legislature that has something to do with it. I suspect that if that if that group is meeting from from the state partners or

Yeah. There's some statewide partners.

Okay. I would I would suspect that conversation with him because it's outside of session at that point. It it those actions or whatever they come up with won't be coming back to the next session anyway. So I I would be okay at the meeting in April and then go after there.

Alright.

Going on to this next item, approval of hearing examiner physicians' hearing recommendations.

I don't have

is it are we just having a conversation? Is that how it's dosed? I I've never been a part of the the selection process. Well, I didn't prepare a speech. So

Okay. I can remind you what we've already been. Okay. Well, we had interviews last week, two people. One being a candidate who has worked here for

the city

since 2013, and the other on an outside qualified candidate. And, you know, there was there was quite a few questions, and I think what's on the agenda today is is to talk about those two candidates and see if one sort of pulls ahead. So to conversation.

Open to

Maya. Go ahead.

I was glad to hear from both candidates last week. And and there's there's one one place where I saw a little bit of a difference, and that was in the receptiveness to our our hearty community engagement, our large numbers of public commenters and public commenters who might not have a specific question of policy that's really within the domain of your examiner. So mister Scheibmeier, both through the experience I've watched and through the responses they had, I think, was was much more interested in figuring out how to create public forums where the community could could voice interests and concerns about projects. And and that's something that I I value very high. So that was one one place.

Although, I mean, because they both do this work. They've both done this work for a long time. They work for many jurisdictions in Western Washington. So I didn't have any question about either one of them being very capable of doing this work. But I just wanted to point out that that's that's one one way that I saw them a little bit differently.

Yeah. I I thought this was a very difficult decision between the two because they both actually seem like professional people who would probably do quite a good job of sorting out the the issues within within our ordinances and and and following the legal steps necessary to make make decisions that will hold up in court.

You know?

So I I found it a very difficult decision for for that reason. And but I I I agree with with Councilman Gilman that that sensitivity to public participation in our community is really important. People may not like the decisions that are handed down, but they wanna be fully heard in any case. And I think they both kind of exhibit examples of, of, you know, tough decisions. I think Chai Meyer did talk about the coal plant instance, which had to be a pretty tough decision, but he didn't roll over.

And I respect I respect that it hold up in the courts, that decision.

I'm gonna be honest. It was very difficult. So for me, because it's like you're you don't you have you you're dealing with in the as as I've been as I've asked councilmates in the past about this, and it seems like we've had we haven't had very many options either, I will say that. Right? And I think that part of this discussion is choosing the main person, but also thinking about the alternate.

Right? And thinking about do we want the alternate to be the other candidate, or do we use we ask the firm to be that alternate? Right? I just wanna point that out. Because for me, it's it's a lot it's interpretation, not creation. Right? And so there's a bit of a style difference, I I've noticed, between the two. But but community involvement is probably because that's what you do. You're you're when you when it's coming to the examiner, it's gone through a lot of public community scrutiny and opinions, and you have some stuff coming up that it's gonna go straight through the hearing examiner. Right?

Two items are coming up. Right? So I think I was hoping that one of

you was gonna make a really strong argument. So my first community involvement in Olympia was representing Westside Neighbors to the hearing examiner as somebody was purchasing the Westside Center. And then I've I've had several opportunities to try to weigh in on different land use decisions and permitting across my career. And I I acknowledge that 90 some percent of the time, the the hearing examiner will affirm the staff's analysis because that's really what they're that that's what's under review is the staff's analysis and recommendation. And it would be, as as as, mister Scheinmeyer said, it'd be a disappointment if the hearing examiner was regularly disagreeing.

There would be some challenge either with our policies or our staff's ability to interpret our policies. So so given that, I've I've spent a lot of my career with hopes that a hearing examiner could be convinced to to change a decision. But I've, you know, I've I've learned over time that the decisions are made in the the large planning processes that we do, the the master plans, the comp plan, the shoreline plan. And so the function for me of the hearing examiner is creating an opportunity for people to bring concerns, leaving open the possibility that there could be something that's either an error by staff or something that's subjective enough that the hearing examiner might make a different decision. And and because of that, I I thought there was a I thought there was a pretty striking difference in the way that the two candidates discussed how they receive people who may or may not have standing in a court of law, but as community members have the the right to come in.

And and so that's why I would lean towards continuing with Mr. Scheidmeier. And I also have to tell you that I am one of the people who won one time. Yeah. And it was with a it was with a 100 foot tape measure because the plans that were approved had too many compact stalls and not enough full size parking stalls.

So it was on a little piddly detail. It wasn't on the theme or the substance of the development. At any rate, I I feel strongly that Mark Shagmeyer has has been willing and gracious in our packed houses coming in to to comment on on high profile land use decisions, and and I I would like to see that continue. Yeah. I I don't see where there's a reason to change.

And so I I too I think, you know, I think he has shown a fair fairness and even handedness. Tough job. You know? I don't see I I I couldn't really see where I think one other advantage is just proximity is closer to the community here, which the other candidate was from his squad or, I think, And so, yeah, I think that makes a difference.

And and I were talking about this from the sense of community because on these types of you know, as you as you both know, on on anything we do as a council, we

always get public comment. Right?

We get emails telling us how they feel about it, about a decision that we make. And I haven't heard anything telling me to do either. Right? I I have no emails. I've had no one come to me contacting me, telling me that they have a concern or an issue. And so I'm okay with continuing based on that, based on the fact that as us, as council members, as as as representatives from public, that I am not hearing anything that would be concerning. Now I guess the other question would be, how would we feel about the Pro Tem hearing examiner position offering that to the other candidate?

Be because I feel they were both qualified individuals, I think that would be great. That would be fine. I I one of the things I asked of Tim when he was here last week about this subject matter was that was how are we publicized? And so it's just the curiosity is learning curve for me. And, you know, it appears that the the the word went out extensively.

There's just a a kind of a thin number of people who do this work, and they do this full time. It it it is a little amazing to me how many people are in the community here that are lawyers and and have had state government hearing exam or background that we don't get a few more applicants, frankly. So, yes, I think having Phil be our backup would be absolutely fine. Because I'm I'm hoping that we can recommend to city council that we reappoint Art Scheidmeyer as our hearing examiner and that we offer to fill Obrecht's position of Proton.

Do I have to motion? Do I have If

you take that as a motion, I'll second it. Here we go. Alright.

All in favor.

Aye. Aye. Alright.

You want me to do reports

on this, or do wanna talk about that first?

Yeah. We do reports on this.

Well,

I don't have a lot of updates, but I think Tim sent me with some instructions here to talk about the next meeting,

which is March 26.

So on the agenda for that are the EDS updates with Steve Spare with recommendations on the updates this year. Manufactured housing with Crystal Lesson and then the plum to east side of plan with Casey Schaffler. Most likely, all of that should be ready. The Ed's update, I guess I have a a question about whether that will be ready only because Steve has been out of the office for a little bit.

Alright. I look forward to that.

May I ask a novice question regarding the Plum Street sub area plan? What kinds of things are we maybe looking at? I I just I'd like to do a little homework sometimes with these things, and so I just I this is, like, really foreign to me is what what we're doing. I just wanted to know if just a little information about the types of things we'll be doing in in reviewing a plan like that. So this is one I've I've been passionate about.

The area along Plum Street up to Eastside Street developed over time from a residential neighborhood to hosting many professional associations and other offices. And over that time, small specific zoning districts were created to accommodate that shift to a commercial use, which means that as we're getting ready to have the tribe and the county do major redevelopment I think we had a proposal from the people who own Casa Mia and the adjoining property to do development. We have, like, nine different characterizations of the area between State Street and and the freeway and east side and plumb. And so my hope is that through this conversation, we can be more intentional about what what we permit, what sort of structures where, or what sort of uses, and and also just clarify, not make it so that it's it's block by block for designations. Yeah.

That's that's for me, that's that's the motivation, and that was a concern that I've I've carried for the last few years. So

I'm if you're if you're very interested, it probably won't be as extensive as May, but we are on a short timeline. But we just did a sub area planning for the mall area. My area sub area plan. No. Maybe not maybe not to that extent, that much money, but it there will be some sort of that that I was thinking that is a a sub area plan, recent one. Right? And I'm hoping that we can we take some of what we learned from that and apply it without having to go back and install all that stuff. But for me, I think it is it is trying to have some sort of vision for that area. Right? Whether it's it's the land use, but it's also traffic.

It's an interesting area because it's been so many different things over the years. So I've been very curious to see where we come up with the division because that I mean, if you look at the the the area where it used to be a Cadillac dealership, the whole area from there, that originally you know, I I talked to some people who've been in Olympia for a long, long time. And before the highway was built, that

was where the farmer's market was.

That was that was all wetland. And then then it became a big parking lot.

Right?

Then that's still life. And you know it used to be wetland because geese show up there. So I'm very I'll be very interested in that. Right? And and, I mean, that's everything from, like, the the old sign that's there to the to the railroad tracks. It's all that whole area. So I mean, it's really gonna be, like, visioning and thinking about what we want it to be.

Right? Unifying it. That that that makes sense. Yeah. You. That's helpful.

You don't you don't need me to answer that. They they did. But I do want you to know that both of the long range planners who are in seating are ready to answer that question. Oh, they yeah. There's they're here. So they don't need to.

They I

think they were going like this.

No. They're excited. They're like, oh,

your planning. So they're here.

Well, maybe they should hear. Yeah. Yeah.

And is David? Joyce or Casey. Oh, okay. Joyce. There's Joyce. She is. Go ahead.

And Casey's in the audience as well. No. We were excited to hear your conversation. You guys, I think, touched on all of the main points. We've got we wanted to provide a little more context and in-depth conversations around that than we could do in the midst of the full comp plan update.

But really looking at both the land use and the transportation, the gateway aspects, the fact that it's a major freight corridor, the drive through issue question, and I just trying to kind of grapple with all of that. I think it is a main entry to our city. That sign that's there isn't necessarily the most beautiful welcome sign. Just some of that type of thing while we could also potentially look at, you know how it's related to the downtown strategy and the downtown design guidelines. Which don't have the exact same boundary and we've really been trying to coordinate that and consolidate the boundary Just taking a look at how it relates to our parking code, our loading and unloading standards, you know, kinda pulling it all together and just taking a look at that particular corridor.

Thank you, Joyce.

Yeah. I

oh gosh. You're getting me into that. I'm thinking about it a little too much. I'm thinking about how I wish they had that sign. Anyone has a chance to talk to Jay Vernon about how much he loves that sign.

He's not here to defend himself tonight. Go ahead. So the community livability committee has gone through two rounds of seeking proposals for replacing the welcome to Olympiad science, rejecting those proposals, and having new proposals come in. It's not easy to choose a new landmark sign to come in, but I I'm sure we'll we'll get to a recommendation.

I I hope. And and and if and I actually thought about this today. Believe it or not, I wrote it down on my on my my notepad here that I don't wanna make the meeting any longer, but I I I no. No. I thought around I thought you just

put the sign around the wall.

Right? It's the roundabout there. Just put it in the center. And I actually think it'd be really cool if you had it where it acknowledges that that that city of the this is this is Foxland. I think that would be really cool as a as a sign. City of Olympia, homes, Foxland. I'm gonna try and just say chess. I think that would be really cool. But I but before you had before I mentioned the the sign, Jaybird, he really hates that sign. He does not want it.

So I I always joke that he loves it and that one day he was tired, we're gonna keep that to him and it in his front yard. He's not here. He's at a event tonight. So I think that's all I have, unless there's any questions. Thank you again, Joyce.

Yeah. You bet. Thank you.

Is there anything else for next week or next month that you have any questions about it because of of of those items? No. Okay. Cool. Do we have any reports from my councilmates?

Well, are you going to make a to the order about the public works work plan?

You can. You can if you want. So in

in previous years, land use would consider both the community planning and development work plan and the public works transportation planning work plan. I I think this is this is the place where, ultimately, we get the reports about major transportation planning initiatives. And then to me, it would make sense that that we're briefed on on the work plan and the capacity of the current projects so that we're reasonable when we dream about what else might happen there. So I I just so I wanted to to to raise that that it didn't happen this time, and I don't know how long ago it stopped happening. But to me, it was useful as a land and it would be useful going forward as a land use committee person to to see the two work plans together.

And on the same topic of how things might go together, I've been having conversations about urban forestry and the tree ordinance, about rain gardens and on-site stormwater management, and the food system referral. And I think along with climate adaptation, all of these in are the environment part of land use and environment committee Yeah. Lives across the utilities, public works, community planning, parks, and and one of the challenges, like, with the the urban forestry and the rain garden sort of conversations is that it's staffed for multiple departments. So I don't know what level of informal coordination by sort of task happens, and I'm I'm guessing that there's already a fair amount. But it's it's not something that we're aware of.

And at times, I found those initiatives difficult to chase because there's not there's not a clear line of who's who's in charge of of that that work. So I that's I know that's a broader thing, but since we're good at the order, it's not I I'm and I'm inspired by the team that comes together around social services, unhoused people, affordable housing, which is across several departments, and they they meet to compare notes periodically. And I I don't know if we have similar environment focused staff coordination, but I I I think that would be valuable. So

we do have lots of those coordinating pieces and staff, but I think what I hear you saying is maybe you wanna hear about it and maybe you wanna see not just the transportation related work plan, but maybe a couple work plans

from other groups and just

to see how they line up and compare. Is that how I understand?

Well, it's the it's really two separate items. The transportation work plan, I think, is a major transportation planning work plan. It's it's a major piece of work that I think should be considered right alongside CPDD's work plan as we're figuring out what should be on the land use agenda. And this this other one is really from in my recent dealings with food sis like I said, with food system, with rain garden, and with the tree ordinance and urban forestry, they've each had touches across multiple departments. And I'm and I I think both for community members trying to navigate that and for us as council members, it's a little bit harder to to understand who's ultimately making the decision and and what's what's the path for for those sorts of measures.

So so, again, that's that's just a that's just a broader musing just because I was I was feeling like, wait. We have somebody from here and here, and then they decided to put somebody in parks working on it because they had some capacity. But So so I I don't I mean, it's not it's not a bad thing, but I just wonder if there's if there's a way to sort of reassure counsel about what kinds of coordination happens and for us to understand whether there's additional resources that are required to keep environmental work moving at a a with enough resource and enough speed that it feels right for everybody.

So maybe what you're looking for is, like, on this agenda is, like, an update on certain things that are going on, not necessarily, like,

the work item that you need to

work on, but, like, an update of, hey. What's going on with these cross department issues?

Yeah. I think I think so. Sure. Anyhow, that's so so we we you you all can talk about it in your agenda setting and see if there's a way for that. And I I I I do know that Tim, who also could attend this evening, is working on providing the council a description of of the the urban forestry and and tree governance work so that we'll have a sort of a a summary of the path right now of what what's already done.

I'm glad you brought up transportation because that was something that I tomorrow, am meeting with Sophie and Mark, transportation director in public works, as I do once a month. It's been a few months, but once a month. And one of the things where I I am gonna bring up is where does transportation live for council? You know? And I think that having the conversation about work plan is probably the best first start.

Right? Is to think about staff are implementing lots of stuff right now from the other side of comp plan, And that's the thing that came to my mind as you were talking about all these various aspects across the city because that's what's going on. But I do think that I will be having that conversation about where does transportation exist for council because transportation is is is is a something I'm passionate about, but I see it. It consists in so many different committees. Right?

Chance and land use and and and sometimes in finance, and and then cameras are going the camera system conversation is going through clips. And so it's like, it's all over the place. So I not to make it all to make not to make land uses or a plan twice as long, but to have a conversation about that. So I will be talking to Sophie and then then I'll probably take those notes from that and bring it to our agenda setting meeting. I don't know if I'm having a deal or

if I'm having a Tim.

I don't know. We'll see.

You're having one with Tim. Okay.

I'm filling in for Tim. Okay.

I don't know how long he's gone. I just Two days. Oh, two days. He's not like he's gone. He went to Vegas. Yeah.

Oh. Yeah. I

I know know knows.

Now that I know Joe's everyone knows. Everyone knows. Knows. Okay. Cool. Well, that's that's all we have. I have any other items you wanna discuss?

This is consistent with what Clark was just saying, and I've I've tried to keep this pretty short. I know we're here at the end, but I I in my interjurisdictional committee work, I'm working on several environmental committees, the Clean Air Agency, the the sea level rise committee, solid waste. And and I have a very acute interest in parks, which, of course, kinda lends into livability and whatnot, but I consider parks and open space an environmental duty, actually, or an environmental issue. And so I I don't I'm I'm not pushing any particular thing, but I do I did see that we're we're very heavy on land use, but not so much on the environmental end of things in our in our in the work plan that we adopt for the year. And, hopefully, as the year trend as we move through the year, you know, we'll be identifying some things that we can use this as a menu to continue our our climate work, for instance.

You know? That's all.

I'm just making note. But I think that at the end of this year, once we're through the work plan, think I would like to have a more conversation about ahead about work plans just to even sample it sample it ahead, just get an idea of what's upcoming so that I wanna be more I wanna be collaborative on that as much as possible. But I see so just to make sure that we're meeting all the needs that because there's a lot of things we're passionate about. We wanna

make sure we're it it at least touches base with us. So alright. You guys, is there anything else? Okay. I move we adjourn.

I will second that, which is rare for a chair.

K. Not available motion.

Not available motion. Not available motion.