Planning & Community Design Commission - Regular Meeting

up. All right. So, I would ask those that are in attendance to make sure your mics are set and also your uh your video uh in there and everybody is visible. So, good. All right. Uh those online just let me know. Uh hopefully it's always good to know that that the system's working and you have you can see all the uh the video and uh and illustrations we put up. So, and sound. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. All right, chairman. Okay, we'll start tonight's city of Alvette uh planning and community uh design commission for December 4th, 2025 to order. Miss Powell, do you have the attendee list? If not,

I do not. I will delegate Laura to do the Thank you to do it if that works. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Um member uh Petri Pal here. Member Felicia Ford here. Member Laura Ragsdale present. Absent is Sam Wallik, Jenna Nat, and Tim Spiegel Spiegelass. And chairman Robert Jagal.

Uh here. Thank you. Let it also be known that our city council liaison, council member Brian Lewis, is in attendance as well as staff liaison Carlos Tjo. uh the city of Alvette's planning community development department's director um and Jack Carswwell uh via Zoom. So, am I missing Dawn or is Dawn at home? Uh Don's not on yet, so she had an engagement earlier on.

Well, we thanks everybody for being in attendance. We appreciate it. Um uh just to let you know, we do follow the agenda, you know, item by item, but there'll be a time for public comments in the beginning. These uh public comments are related to things that aren't on the agenda item. So if you have something like that, when that comes up, make sure you raise your hand. We'll we'll ask for that as well. We also as we go through the agenda, we'll we'll discuss kind of the petition that's there. Um have some question and answer between commission members with staff and then typically bring on the petitioner to help answer a few more questions or or go over it a little bit more. At that point in time we or after that then we ask if there's any public comments related to those agenda items listen to those and then we typically have some more discussions if needed and then uh uh take a vote if if we can. Okay. Um so we appreciate everyone being in attendance. If there are public comments um and you're online make sure you raise your hand uh push the button to raise your hand. Um, and then when if you are via Zoom, we do ask you to make sure that you have your video on as well as your microphone on and be looking for that because by default those are typically turned off. So, and then we do ask that no public comments be no more than three minutes just to be respectful of everybody's time and to make sure everybody's opinions get heard. It's not that shouldn't be that much of a problem tonight, but sometimes it gets pretty busy, so we appreciate it. All right, Carlos, are there any announcements tonight?

Uh, no, chairman. Okay, then we'll take on um any public comments in the audience. Yeah, come on up there. Uh, turn on the microphone as well. And I'm not sure if I It's good.

Uh, my name is Doug Cohen. I own Douglas Properties. My home address is 1025 South Mcnite. Um, I'm be looking at some notes on my phone, so I I I don't want to think that I'm rude and not looking up. So, I I just a few things to talk about. So, a couple weeks ago, I was here for a presentation on uh one of the many homes that I've built in this um municipality, and I was surprised and and disappointed that there was a no vote on the design. And it kind of gave me hesitance to to move forward with other sites without having some answers on where the committee is headed uh with the future of new construction and new homes. Um, and I don't think it's an an unreasonable request by an applicant that if someone is going to vote no, then there needs to be an open dialogue during that presentation and voice their opinions on what they do not like about the house that is drawn instead of just voting no at the end. So that builders like myself can have some idea of why a project was voted no. so they know how to make plans for the future. I think that as far as designs of homes, uh, as far as criteria for sizes of homes, shapes, uh, outside of this committee's aesthetic review, I think that that should be subject to the subdivision themselves to determine that. For example, at Stonyside, we they have a very strict ordinance of no two-story homes. So the builders when they buy homes in there for new developments, we know going in that we have to abide by a certain height uh and they cannot be two stories. So we know the rules going in

and that those rules lead us to a value of the lot by square footage of how much we can build. If you have a blanket over the entire zip code to control sizes of homes and try to interfere with the natural economic cycle of real estate, I think you're going to see a serious disruption of home values in the entire area. Now, I'm all for affordable housing. And if affordable housing is something that the city is looking to obtain, then there really is one only one obvious answer, and that's to increase density. There are places in Clayton, especially Davis Place where relatives of mine live, that there's mostly homes in there that are single family, but there's also a mix of duplexes in there, and they all fit in well with each other. It's not a an unusual design if done properly to have houses and duplexes in the same subdivision, and that helps with the affordability issue. Speaking of affordability, every zip code throughout the country has its own definition of what affordable housing is. For example, maybe in St. Charles it's $300,000. Maybe in Leoo it's a million500,000. My thinking of doing this for over 40 years is that in Alvette affordable housing would fall between the $650 and $700,000 range for newer construction. But my most and largest concern is to know where the municipality is is headed with some sort of comprehensive plan. Because when builders like myself go and buy lots on old dilapitated homes, we buy them quickly as is with no contingencies.

And if three months later I come in with a plan where I'm anticipating building a 4,000 square foot house and all of a sudden I'm limited to 2,500 square ft, then I've just paid $200,000 too much for that lot. It's fairly simple math. And I think that a vote of a no over the entire zip code for controlling housing stock and size is a dangerous path. I I'd like to be a participant in how this committee is moving forward so I know beforehand when I start purchasing lots how much I can pay for a lot and I I think that's very important not just to me but for all of my peer group. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. Appreciate it. Um I don't know if it's right now we're having some discussions about how to look at that affordability aspect and so we we don't have anything planned or you know or really have really discussed it but it is something that we're looking to do.

Well I I would think that it'd be very difficult for the city to plan it. I think it would be more reasonable for someone like myself to bring a proposal to the city and say this is what I want to do. Look at the density that I'm creating because I don't know how you could design I I I'm not sure how a city could say we're going to designate a certain area for affordable living. Right. I know they're trying to do that like in Malibu. Right. Right.

It's kind of scary. But I I think uh like I'm if everything goes well across the street and it's going very well and there's a lot of dilapitated um I don't know if that's a fair word uh inferior housing maybe uh just to the uh uh west of me right there that I would like to buy the entire street and have a series of two families and three families and and make them affordable. Um so I don't know. I I think that would probably be the the best approach in my opinion as if you if you come up with a design, if you want to include my my help, other builders help, I think that would be a great idea. And at the same time, when someone brings in a development like what we brought in to you all to review across the street, that might be, you know, the more effective way instead of putting the cart before the horse. I don't know how you would take an area of $2 million homes and say, "Now we're going to plot affordable housing." It's going to be quite the challenge.

Yes. And I think that's one of the one of the I mean I've I went to Old Bono School. I played little league baseball at Stacy Park. You know, I've been here for 55 years. I've seen everything that's happened in Alvette. Um and it's been an amazing run. Um, so I'm I'm all for change and I think one of the one of the most dynamic things of Alvette is the diversity and the price range of homes that you know from 300,000 to almost you know two and a half million dollars. That's an amazing thing. You cannot not many municipalities around the country can say that they can offer that and that is an amazing an an amazing fact that everyone should be proud of here. Agree. Agree.

Okay. Well, thanks for your comments. We appreciate it. We might take you up on, you know, like having some discussions with developers like you. Very good. All right. Good. Good. All right. May I interject here just a moment? Yeah.

Um, I was the no vote. Um, and my no vote had nothing to do with affordability. It had to Excuse me. I'm talking now. Um, I'm not having a dialogue. I'm just giving you why I voted no. I voted no because the house was extremely large in comparison to the other houses adjacent to it. I don't believe it met our maning requirements. I have to wonder exactly how what a house would have to look like in order to to not be considered appropriate for massing requirements. Um there's cities all across this nation that are grappling with affordable housing and to say that affordable housing here and in Alvette starts at $650,000 is laughable. Um my personal opinion and the reason why I voted no and I think everybody on the commission knew exactly why I was voting no and it had to do with Massie. Um I think it's inappropriate in a neighborhood full of single family homes. um singlestory homes um that are mid-century modernist to stick a gigantic house that doesn't even come close to the same design as the adjacent homes. I'm sorry. And I will continue to vote no if we continue to do go down this path and that's my prerogative.

Okay, let's move on to the next. I don't think now's the appropriate time to kind of have any more back and forth discussion on this. No, I just I just wanted to make, you know, since I was being pointed out, I thought I I ought to give an explanation. That's all. I think that was good. And I'm glad at least you you were able to get that and and so Doug could hear that as well. So, I think that's that's that's perfect. But now, let's just kind of move on to uh old business and this is item A 9321 olive. This is the Mercy Ambulatory Pharmacy. Carlos.

Uh chairman, this uh item was introduced at our last meeting on November 20th. It's a proposed ambulatory pharmacy which includes uh the components of retail pharmacy, specialty medication, specialty medications, home infusion, and centralized pharmacy support functions including the call center and authorization support. Uh and then I'll note that no drive-through is proposed as part of this project. Uh it's at the old US Bank facility, addressed is 9321. uh Olive Boulevard, which is a over 8 acre parcel, a very prominent parcel in our community because we don't have many um parcels that are over 5 acres. Uh it has a one-story building already on the site that roughly is 105,000 square ft. The property is zoned LI light industrial which is unique being that it's on Olive Boulevard, but it is zoned light industrial and it's part of our light industrial uh parks that are both deal industrial and north price uh in there. Uh within the LI district, we do permit medical offices and clinics, but they're subject to a special permit, meaning that they require a review and recommendation by the commission, but ultimately are approved by the council. special permit gives the city uh pretty wide prerogative in in review because this the use itself is unique to the special nature of the underlying zoning district. So this is an industrial district. This is more kind of type of a service use. Uh this is a unique specialty type of service use and not to say it it's not compatible with the industrial parameters of the district. uh but it gives the city the authority to kind of review and mitigate any negative impacts or impacts that that type of use could have on uh the site itself and within the industrial district uh within itself too. So getting the city gets a lot of latitude to try to uh ensure that if there's any u spillover effects that we try to mitigate as much as possible to ensure that it fits within the character of

that area. Um you saw this at our at our last meeting they have the internal site plan. Again, this is uh uh almost over 105,000 ft² how they would uh use the existing facility. It's one story. And then you saw the site improvements that they're proposing, including the uh the the the sidewalk edge uh improvements. There's still a couple of things that be need to be clarified. They identified the light structures that were uh on the site. They've gone over the the landscaping and and such, and that's all been addressed. You now have uh your report. Uh staff is recommending recommending the con commission consider action uh and that that would be in a form of a recommendation to the council and an approval of the site plan. Uh conditions for this is that the the the user which is mercy uh hold a safety and service meeting with our fire and police departments so they get a better understanding of the type of uh service needs that would be necessary on there. We've had that discussion. I think you've heard about that discussion here, but we want to make sure that they talk to our public safety officials uh in that aspect too before the uh public hearing uh if uh the commission takes action. Uh we've been in discussions with the uh applicant petitioner regarding improvements that the city is doing on Deman Industrial Drive and to ensure that a southern access point on Deman Industrial Drive is relocated. And that's what you see here. And it will be shifted. it will be shifted a little bit further north in this red line here. Uh but in compliance with what our public works director was uh kind of looking for trying to um encourage the the uh the petitioners to consider. Uh we talked about an access easement agreement here next to Taco Bell. We're not asking them to do any modifications, but if the Taco Bell property were ever to redevelop, we want to make sure that we're in a place or in a position where we can modify that and and combine that point, that access point uh on both sides. So, it's directly across

Llewellen. So, right now on the south side, you have Luwellyn Lane and then across the street you have two aprons that are roughly well within within 50 ft apart or so. So, we would like to improve the the conflict points, the access on Olive in accordance with a master plan that we prepared uh and adopted uh back in I believe it was 2019. Um and there this would be consistent with the uh the objectives and goals of the uh that plan. We want to make sure that the exterior lighting is consistent with chapter 428, meaning that it's all face downward, boxed in um and then also to can try to control the hues uh in there. Uh we want to ensure that the Olive Boulevard streetscape improvements are consistent with chapter 428. Uh it's a long parcel, so there's there's not as much detail here, but we we think that, you know, we want to just verify and make sure that that they're fully consistent with those standards. Um commission has asked or requested some uh building exterior improvements along the front facade uh that we'd like to see come down, you know, as they get closer to to their uh to their permitting. and then make sure that the signage is is uniform and consistent so they come in as a signage package um in there. So those conditions are incorporated in a recommended motion if the commission considers that. I'd be glad to answer any specific questions. We have representatives both from uh as a petitioner. We have uh representatives from Mercy and then we have representatives of the actual property owner uh of the site. They are all aware of the conditions uh that are here. I don't believe that there's any opposition to any of those conditions. Uh, but I'll let them uh address that or chime in once uh you you permit.

Um, out of curiosity, the cross agreement access on that southwest corner, is that lock it in to just that or could it potentially move to further, you know, back um the goal would be next site to combine to um combine those two apron points. Okay. Now, how that's configured, I don't know. I don't we I don't think now if they need more depth to do that that's fine. Uh but the goal is to to eliminate go from two aprons to one apron. Yeah. entrance and how wide that is that that would be up to them.

Uh I think that there's enough in terms of uh the way their drive aisles are set uh in there with proper signage and stop signage or bar signage uh to control you know the in-n-out navigation so it doesn't block uh in there. But again, even if it's further back, the the ultimate uh goal here is to uh combine the the two points. Uh if I remember, there were some sizable utility structures that were kind of right there. So, and it may be that you know that it has to be more on one side or the other side. It's hard to say.

You're right. But we can't control, you know, you know, without some type of, you know, easement agreement, you know, to when we get to that design phase. Yeah. Yeah. Uh it'd be difficult to tell. Ideally, you know, here is Lu Allen, but if you look, you know, straight across the street, you are correct. There's a pole right there. There's an inlet and there's a hydrant. And there is some topographical issues, not major, but that would have to be resolved. It may be a further extension this way or a further extension this way. Okay? The goal is not to design it. The goal is not for them to build it, but the goal is to just to pay the necessary easements so we're prepared in the event.

Okay. Uh if that property ever does redevelop. Laura, I think you had a question. I was curious and because I was not at the last meeting and when I looked through um the information about how many people is the facility going to employ? Uh it'll be somewhere between 100 to 125 as it they phase it in because I was just thinking of like traffic in that area. It was far less than the the number of occupants that were there. Now they will have a component for more customers. Uh, but there'll be there used to be over 350 employees at this facility.

That was my one of my questions because I used to live right over there and like I just know the traffic pattern. I also think that the first that little first easement, moving it more south in towards the industrial park instead of it being right here at the edge would Yes. Yeah, that would be moving shifting it back. It'd be moved north. No, sorry, north, not south, north towards the industrial park would also be extremely beneficial. Correct. Just because of traffic flow. And before that, I I'll note one thing that you did miss uh in there. So, the city has secured, as a matter of fact, we are uh right. They're taking out the one building down here.

Correct. And they're going to widen that a dedicated right turn lane. And then here we're wid widening that and adding another dedicated right turn lane. So what the the big issue here was when uh somebody was turning left, everybody turning right was backed up. Backed up. Yes. So this should help facilitate that. And then to ensure that there's enough queuing, they'll move this entrance uh to the north of this island here. Well, and it also significantly less amount of Yes. employees. So Okay.

Appreciate the Petri or Felicia, do you have any questions for Carlos? I I think my only question was um since it's only going to be 100 to 125 employees, is there any discussion about reducing the sea of concrete behind the building to add more landscaping and less uh less parking? Um I'm just curious. I know that we talked a little bit about it last time, but I didn't know if that's even something that we can ask of them uh since it's existing. I'm just curious. I mean, there's looks like a lot of parking spaces back there, probably from when they had 350 employees. And since there's no it's not going to be closed, I just wondered

we can have some of that removed. And I think we'll ask the petitioners when they come up. Okay, cool. Okay. Uh Felicia, did you have anything? No, I don't. Thank you. Okay. All right. So, if we can hear from the petitioners now, that would be great.

Uh good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. For the record, my name is George Stock and I'm with Stocken Associates Consulting Engineers and I'm here this evening on behalf of Mercy Health. Uh joining me this evening are representatives of Mercy Health as well available to answer questions. I was not at the previous hearing. Uh Josh Barkas from my office was there. Uh but since that meeting uh Carlos uh as well as myself and Mercy had a discussion earlier this week to go over those conditions and specifically some of the items you're talking about the relocation of the driveway on Dealman Industrial which we're 100% agreeable to. Um with regards to the uh access easement and the dedication of that, I know that the owner is online and be able to answer that specifically. Generally my understanding is like Carlos they're in agreement with that easement be able to take care of that item regarding the excuse me safety and service meeting with fire and police. So Mercy's in the process of selecting the architect um that may have happened uh earlier this week or or next week but then we would set up a meeting and have that uh with that staff those staff members and so forth to go through that. Um, with regards to the project and that last comment about the parking lot, we do have a landscape architect on involved involved. There was the plan submitted and generally the intent is not to remove asphalt and have expenses associated with that, but bring up the parking lot in compliance, maintain it, um, uh, replace landscaping that's, um, you know, needs to be replaced and also comply with the landscape ordinance along Olive Street Road and that frontage and improve that. But we were not anticipating modifications to the parking lot other than the exception of what we talked about just a moment ago on the east side with the drive to Dealman Road. So, um it's not that we're going to utilize that parking lot. Um but again, we're a tenant on the property. Mercy is um and they don't own the property. Uh they'll maintain it. They'll take care of the aesthetics um on the exterior as suggested and then

the interior floor plan. Um, so I think, you know, generally we're 100% in compliance with, you know, the recommendations, uh, are in agreement with those recommendations. Um, and I'm available to answer any other questions or Representative Mercy. How long's the lease for? How long the length of the lease? 10-year lease. 10-year lease. Okay. I'm sure there's renewable terms within that. Of course. Um um how much of that parking lot will be utilized and how much will be just sitting vacant?

Um I would say probably uh well you know generally most people park as close to the building as they possibly can the shortest walk. So probably a third of the parking lot you know the northernmost third may be underutilized and not used. Okay. So twothirds Phil. Yes. Okay. Does anybody on the commission have any further questions uh for the petitioner? Did we want to bring on the somebody from Mercy to address? Uh I do have the the actual property owner in attendance. Are you guys good? Anything else? Okay. No. Okay. Thank you.

All right. Allison Dan, I'm going to promote you to panelist and then that'll allow you to speak before the commission. Uh, if you can turn on your mic and uh and uh video, it'd be greatly appreciated. All right, Dan, I have you over uh your video set, but I don't have your mic. I'm I'm There you go. You are there. There. Yes, sir. Hello, Dan Dakovic. I'm the managing principal on Bamboo Equity Partners. Uh we're the current owner of the of the US former US Bank building.

Well, thank you for being in attendance. We appreciate it. There was a question about uh the the cross uh easement access of whether that was going to be an issue or if you guys were in agreement with that. No, we're in agreement. Um we understand what the city is is trying to accomplish and um again obviously that you know the Taco Bell owners will have to be part of it and uh but we're in agreement on proceeding with that.

Good. Good. Good. And if I guess I'm gonna ask this on behalf of Petri or maybe not on half behalf of Petri, but has there been any discussion about you know trying to reduce the amount of parking if it's not needed, you know, for this tenant? It it's 10-year lease is a pretty long lease, but I know it's um it kind of depends on if they're going to be there for, you know, longer. We would almost we we probably prefer to see the parking kind of rided if that makes sense.

I I agree and I understand. Um, we're not we're not trying to say no. But again, I think I think what we need to think about is, you know, what is the what is the usability of this building in the future, right? After 10 years, possibly, you know, if Mercy does not stay there, we have to think about what what is next there because um the building at that age is going to be probably pretty um pretty old. So, we'll probably have to leave um or raise the building if they leave. Um I I think from the perspective of reducing the parking we would not be inclined to do so. Um because again sometimes we have and and again in a few you know looking at some of our properties around the around the town sometimes we do have people who park far away just so they can walk towards the building. Um they get their exercise that way. Um, and I don't I don't see the the the reason to reduce it and make it very tight on Mercy and make him um, you know, have a have a potential problem parking if certain amount of people come to the office and certain amount of people don't. Right.

Right. I understand. Chairman, I I'll note a couple of things. Uh I I I crafted the the parking ordinance on behalf of the city uh when when I started in here because I think the parking requirements were six per thousand uh in there which this site would have been under would have been um not in non-compliance in there and I've brought it down to 3.3 per thousand which uh is low. Uh but it is in my professional opinion that parking impacts the owners. you know, if people don't can't find parking, they're not going to right

go there and they're going to go somewhere else. And that 3.3 that we currently have is is is is one of the the lower numbers around uh the area. And I've gotten a lot of criticism. You go to the shops at Price Crossing during lunchtime. You go to the uh uh the brewery. Yes. Uh and the UPS store. Uh but then you look at Olivet Center and you can see tons and tons of stalls just available throughout the day uh in there. So this site is probably more aligned for 4 to 4.5 per thousand. Yeah. I've got the code at 3.3 per thousand with per thousand square feet. Is that what it is? Mhm. 4 uh four to 4.5 per thousand.

Okay. Which is consistent with county, you know. Yeah. Uh in there. So yes uh if you if you look at the number of employees yes but you know at one point this site had over 300 people exactly uh in there the the goal here is the is to to find the right balance uh uh in there and then it you know if you look at enterprise they have over 750 parking spaces uh I got we're hoping we get to 200 employees uh you know wow soon. So yeah, the industrial park is overparked. It's overparked uh because of the policy decisions of the past. Yeah.

Uh in there, I think this site is is uh is balanced well. The parking's in the back. There's a lot of good things about it and the way it's designed that the city did uh did well. Uh but yes, it is a lot of parking, but I think uh as I considered this the special permit, and we did have a little bit of discussion about the number of stalls, it it it's it's hard to to uh to to place it on the number of people that are employed if this building has a bigger capacity than than that. I I appreciate that they're only going to have 100 people in a building that could hold well over 300 people. Uh, but I really do hope that the business model is great and it improves and it becomes a major employer in our community and within the region. And there there I think it it's pretty well balanced. If they were five per thousand stalls or up to the six per thousand stalls, I think that would be a reasonable request.

Uh, but it's not out of the character of what you would find in in many of the planning uh documents. Okay. I'm just curious, Carlos. I mean, tonight we're just um agreeing to the special use permit, but the but the design standards down the road are still subject to our approval. Is that correct? If they do any additional modifications to the building exterior. Yes.

Okay. Because I just I heard him say the architect had just been selected, which suggests that they are come they are going to do maybe do something. And I'm just wondering if if even if you don't reduce the number of spots, will this build will this site because it's already previously developed have to comply with any storm water considerations because of the concrete um and paved, you know, parking area? And is there a way to incorporate maybe some storm water detentions um to to capture some of the rainwater that will inevitably flow somewhere else? Would that be something that we can that can be dealt with down the road in the design phase?

If if there are issues, I'm not aware of any uh issues from MSD regarding the current design in the industrial parks, but that water does go somewhere as you noted uh in there. We know that we've had issues up in uh is it 118th Street or or so in U City uh in there, but it's something we can continue that discussion. uh and they're uh within our code again, unless they were expanding the parking, would that trigger expanding additional detention? And in this case, we're we're not looking for them to expand it. Right. Right. Okay. I was I was just curious how exactly that was going to flow. Okay.

Okay. Any other discussion uh with any of the members here in the audience as well as online? Well, thank you guys for for uh being here and talking about it. We appreciate your time uh and efforts, you know, for that. Um is there any more discussion amongst the commission members hearing? None. Do I hear a motion? I'll make a motion.

Go ahead, Laura. Um, a motion to recommend the city council to consider authorizing a special use permit for Atari Group to permit Mercy to operate an ambulatory pharmacy on the property grounds at 9321 Olive Boulevard and approve the petition for site plan, community design, and concept storm water review as illustrated in the permit plans presented to the commission on November 20th. 2025 and noted in the memorandum for the department of community development dated December 4th, 2025 subject to any staff conditions noted therein.

Motion's been made by Laura Ragdale. Do I hear a second? Second. And seconded by Petri Pow. Carl, should you please call the vote? All right. Commissioner Ragdell, approve. Commissioner Ford, approve. Commissioner Powell, approve. Commissioner Joe Gell approved. Okay. So, the motion is a recommendation to the city council. Uh this item will then be forwarded to the city council for a public hearing. Uh I apologize. I don't have the the the date in here, but it'll be their first uh formal meeting. No, not in January 2026. Uh and there would also be a public hearing held that council reads it twice and then if if approved by council, then it becomes official. Very good. All right.

Thank you very much. We appreciate it and we look forward to to the new business here in town. So, thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Good night, guys. Okay. We'll move on to item B, text amendment for the LI light industrial district regarding data centers. Carlos. Okay. Chairman, just just continuing uh on our discussion. I'm not going to ask for any specific uh action uh tonight, but we're getting closer in terms of trying to draft a ordinance to control data centers. First thing I'll notice like there is we have not been approached by anybody regarding right

uh a petition for a data center. Uh, a matter of fact, this facility was the one I was scared about and uh and and I think we got a really good tenant

um uh for this site because you know given its size and and and and building uh um volume that that that usually meets a lot of the uh the preferred uh and there so you know they provided you the definition of what a data center is. uh we use the the uh North American industrial classification system uh for those definitions. They're provided by the feds and it's called data processing hosting and related services. Now we adopted the and there was a question that was asked. We adopted the 2007 version. They I believe the current version is 2021. Our code still references the 2007 um in there and there have been some some significant changes. Uh, but we hope one day we we will update that. So, right now I'm looking at the definitions and the classifications that are in the 2007 volume because that's the one our code references. Um, and there

what's is there a difference in definition? No. Okay.

No, they're pretty consistent, but you know, there's a lot of things that weren't back in 2007 that are more consistent, and I thought this was going to be one, but it was it was pretty well laid out uh in there. Now, data processing centers uh are permitted in our light industrial park. Uh they're not permitted in the CO district. They're not permitted in the PA district or any other other district except the light industrial district. And right now, under our ordinance, they're permitted by right. So, if somebody was looking at, let's say, I'm going to use this building uh that was here before us for example, all they would be doing is applying for their building permit for interior renovations and getting an occupancy inspection. they would have had nothing to do with any commission or anything with the council. We want to change that. We we I I also will stress we don't have the authority to prohibit a use. Uh but we can establish reasonable regulations uh to ensure that the the use is cons is consistent and compatible with our community's character and the district itself uh in there. And that's what we're hoping to do here. uh we're suggesting to you know to provide a specific definition for the data centers as under the 2007 uh to amend the LI district and um no longer permitted by right but move it in as a special permit use. Now we do have a similar user that is not a data center but it falls pretty close in comparison. uh charter communications or spectrum has a major I forgot not hub here and there's a prop proper term for it that escapes me right now. Um however that is

customer service. Pardon? Customer service. No, it's a uh like the all the internet comes here and then gets distributed outward. Wow. Yeah. It's a it's a that guy. It's like a a network hub. Maybe it's a net hub. Yeah. In there. and they operate two buildings in their in our industrial park. They used to have four uh in there. They're they're they're down to two. And all that is is is the is kind of like the highway, you know,

they're just moving things where data centers actually are taking things and rearranging it and and filing it. That requires a lot of energy. What they do in the the the the other hub is completely different. And they've been in the city well well before I started in 2002. So, I don't, you know, they, as far as I know, for ages, um, in there, and we don't want to make them non-conforming. They've been a great, uh, uh, they've invested heavily in their properties and their industrial parks and and a good community asset, uh, in there. So, we don't want to like, you know, in any way impact, you know, the services that they're providing or make them non-conforming all of a sudden. So, this would be specific to data centers. There's a different term for those. uh I think it's wired telecommunication carriers that minimizes the impact on charter uh on charter communications and there now as a special permit again it's it's a use it's not permitted by right it is subject to recommendation by the count commission and ultimate approval by the council and the council has the authority to say no and we've done that before we did it with a cultivation facility

uh several years ago so in this case um the conditions for consideration given what happens in a data processing hosting and related type of service center. Uh we would recommend that you know the site be at least 3 acres. Uh that it has to be at least 300 feet from the nearest residentially zone boundary. Can I ask you a question right at that point? How is the 300 feet um determined? Because you know there's a lot of information out there about the the noise issue. It's not so much decibel as it is a constant buzz

and that that can be heard pretty pretty far. And I'm just wondering why 300 ft and why not more than that. Well, it would be one or the other. You either have noise control and mitigation a as a means uh in there or you just put it for but we still have to be able to permit it in the city. Why why do we have to permit it in the city? If if it's required by law. Oh, okay. State law,

if federal, we would be it would it's an equal protection question uh type of thing. Um and I can ask the city attorney like to give it give a more legal type of opinion, but we we don't have the capacity to uh not permit a type of use like adult entertainment. It's permitted in the city of Alvette. Uh but it's very regulated in and say that same with cultivation centers for the marijuana. Is that is that what you're referring to? Okay. Yes. Okay. But I mean we could we could adjust that 300 ft number.

Correct. If we are willing to compromise on the noise control and mitigation. So they have to be reasonably related. I think if you're going to go 300 feet then you you you should be provided a you should be required to provide noise control and mitigation and we would want an independent consultant to do that. Um and there now we'll put uh like a we'll put a map together to kind of illustrate and identify that would be I think that'd be very helpful.

Absolutely. Yes. Yes. So we'll get that together for our next meeting uh in there and then that we would uh require some type of building performance standards on energy usage now on something like that that that gets beyond the scope and capacity of the city of Olivet. Uh it's something I was taking a look into in terms of what I have access what expertise I have on staff to be able to make those decisions and where they would uh get that information and I'm not sure how that would be be done. We talked about it uh as a commission as a whole and that was that was thrown out. I did look to see what other communities had and they had like specific threshold standards but a lot of those communities controlled the utility services that were being provided where here in Alabette we don't have that control. uh they're they're provided by these u semi-public uh utility services like Amaran uh Missouri American water and they they don't share the information or data uh like if we

building performance standard you have it just on energy usage can it be energy and water because I understand that's a huge issue um the the the water requirements for the cooling stations

and I'm and this may be two separate questions, but I'm going to bring up the fact that we have a reservoir and I'm wondering um how the reservoir in terms of water access it do we control that or is that completely Missouri American? Um because they they say and and other communities have had trouble with water availability to residents because the water is all being used for the cooling centers. Um,

so I just want to I I I realize we may not have the expertise, but that's something we can require besides a standard for energy usage. I think we should also be looking at the water usage so that res long as we have an understanding of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable and we have those parameters and that's where we we don't the uh the the water reservoir that let's say like the one that's in Stacy Park. Yeah. Is we don't have access to that only services the city of St. Louis. Now, okay. Now, however, on the other side of Lindberg, American Water has their reservoir in the tanks right by the the Donald Danfold Plant Science Center. Oh, okay.

Okay. And I think that's one of their their their main holding areas um in there. However, we don't have because they're a public or private entity have access to like the usage information in there. So, a lot of communities that you've seen on there, let's say like uh Memphis, San Francisco or so, they're they're running their own utilities. So, the city itself has all that data and access. uh on this situation. I I we don't we're just we're we're we're just a customer to the the large service provider.

But we can't ask for them and how much water they're going to be using for one of these centers. I can't ask that question. I can't ask Amaran to to to find out how much water you use at your residence. No, but you can ask the resident if they want to do something that's going to consume a great deal of water. I mean, I would think especially since that's the pri one of the primary complaints about these huge data centers is that they sucking the water out of the ground and affecting all everybody around them. Yeah, we can ask the petitioner how much

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying is can we require Can we require them to give us information on water and how it's going to impact the rest of the community's access to water? Okay, I think that's fair. And it would be how it that's crafted. So yeah. Yeah. I'm not suggesting that we the whole idea Petri wants to ensure is that it doesn't impact the community. Right. Right. That's that's my only concern. Sufficient capacity so that the neighborhood itself isn't impacted. Right. The neighborhood or the larger community.

Yeah. So that then just to make sure again because that as a planner that information would come back from the utility provider. We would be asking the utility provider can can do do you have sufficient capacity to accommodate this customer? I think that's a perfectly legitimate question to ask of the water provider. Yeah. So in trying to codify this the the building perform performance standard is that they would provide from the utility provider a statement indicating that they have a no impact. Yes. Yeah. And that that makes okay

as long as we would allowed to do that negative impact. We are I mean we're blessed in Missouri of having more water than we know what to do with for the most part but but you know there may be still consequences of the you know of a cooling you know but the one thing I want to make sure because again it's professionally this has to be consistent you know so if Missouri American water says they're fine that they have made that statement and that complies with the performance standard what I don't want to do is like well But we still are concerned. Yes.

Well, maybe some additional research on that. You know, with I mean, there's a lot of communities that are looking at this right now. I would imagine that there there are there is information out there to be able to assess a project and the impact on the water resources in the surrounding community. There has to be. There just has to. Yes. But it's apples and oranges. I just want to make a good clarification, especially in the St. Louis regional area where we have, you know, private utility service providers for the municipality. A lot of those that we hear the municipality is the service provider.

Yeah, I I understand that point. I I but that doesn't mean we can't ask them for that information to to assure that when I turn on my tap in my sink in my kitchen that water is going to come out. Well, but the utility provider is going to consent to that. It's not whether your experience is it's how much excess capacity they would have after the utility. Well, I think this is all an area that needs to be thought about and researched maybe a little further to address concerns because it's the noise and the water that seem to be the biggest issues um from all the reading I've done on the on the question

and I realize that we don't control the the the utility. However, we do, you know, if we find that, you know, Missouri American is saying, you know, opines that yes, it's going to affect the area, I think that should be a consideration. Yes. Now, whether they pass on everything just because they they they love consumption of water, I don't know. But I feel like we wouldn't be doing our duty to the citizens if we didn't have some way of assessing the impact on water resources within our community. And I'm comfortable with that as long as it's coming from the provider, the service. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I did read something or listen to a podcast this week and they were talking about uh uh these utility companies have to a lot of times run new lines for these and they typically do that free of charge but then charge all the community. Yeah, it's a big it's a big problem. Yeah. Is there suffic I guess the question is really is there sufficient infrastructure for a big facility like what we're seeing across country. Okay.

And then the other thing of course I'll I'll throw in that the state is also looking at this and typically they look at it more from the business perspective and the potential there as opposed to the huge money issue purpose. So there may be limitations in terms of what we can and can't do. Uh we should have this in in place before the next session. Uh but we may have to come back periodically to make any adjustments. Yeah. I did hear something that Amarind was coming out with something as well. Correct. Yeah. Do you know much about I don't know. No, I I know that they there was a and actually it was from the state and then Amron is establishing some type of policy.

Yeah. Uh in place, but most of them are looking at as as customers. Yes. In there and the only like similar type of uses like u um there's an an aluminum smelting plant somewhere in south central Missouri. uh in there that uh is able to buy their electrical rates at a discount because they buy it in bulk and below the market price. Uh but again, the everybody else is paying that that gap, you know. So yes,

uh there's a lot of shuffling that goes into play to to collect that. So yeah, very interesting. Very go ahead, Brent. Do you mind going back to the previous slide, Carlos? Sure. Well, just one thing to think about with legal is again Charter wouldn't shock me if Charter wanted to get into the data communication or data hosting. So, um they're a wired telecommunication carrier. You could argue some of this is wireless, some of it's data, but I'm just wondering if the language is a little bit too um they are, you know, are we are we opening ourselves up if charter were to all of a sudden want to be a data center? Does they have to come back for a new special use permit? It would be an expansion expansion of their existing operations. So that would come back to us then? It would.

Okay. And the process of something like that would be is probably that we we'd get a building permit for some type of renovations or or something and that it gets picked up by the reviewer like well wait a minute this is not uh not the same as what you're doing. Yeah. And again data processing I would say charter does data processing. hosting. That's a These are all tough terms. I understand what you're trying to say. I'm just saying like Charter does hosting. They do data processing. And that was one of the things like they're no long they're not

they they are not a lack of a better word a TV provider. They're not a phone provider. They're they're they these things have morphed to things in in an effort to like they're not a franchise. And they do this in a purpose to kind of get around the tax requirements. Yeah, it's it's interesting. I just want to make sure no one's going to loophole us on it, but I hear what you're saying. It's a good good point. I'm curious if this has been written how it's been written in other communities, you know, maybe steal their language, too, if we didn't already.

And we we did we tried to find a map. We believe that there is a map out there that shows like other hosting locations, cable provider hosting locations or internet similar like the it's it's a gray area just because I again there might be a traffic or or network hub arguably that's what a data center is too. I I agree it moves things around. It processes it but you could make an argument that we're just we're a network. Yeah. Now what I will say that their buildings are substantially smaller than what we would see. So let's say like this 105,000 square foot building what charter has I think is like two 10,000 square foot buildings. Yeah. So

the charter bu the charter buildings are very small over in the industrial park. Okay. Do we have to identify the amount of data processing like the size? Would that be helpful? How many terabytes we're talking about? I don't know. I don't know. The problem is again charter today may not be doing it but data is getting cheaper but terabytes upon terabytes can just get done really quickly and especially as data doesn't need as much space anymore which is impressive. I'd hate to put a number in you know I hate to say this is one of those you know when you see it

um so I'd almost rather make it you put an exception there I agree or you grandfather them in you know or something like that. Is there that is that a possibility? Like let everything come to us and we they they can be grandfathered in. But then I think uh as part of the process, we need to make sure that they're informed and aware of the changes. Yeah. I'm just wondering maybe make it more broad to say anyone who's doing data or technical work, we want to just have a special use permit and if someone like a new charter came in, we be like, "Yeah, we understand what you're doing. We're okay with it. You're not using the resources. You're not asking for new utilities. You're not touching the water." And we grandfather charter in because they're a good, you know, business in the community. Right. I hate I just rather make it more come before us. And this isn't going to be often. No.

If at all. So I agree that site was the most prevalent of I mean if that that was a part of the Commissioner Pow was was the concern with this now being occupied. I I'm not under time constraint to try to get this we can spend a little bit more time get the wording correct. Good. Uh and and do a little bit more research on some of these questions. Okay. Good. Okay. Great. All right. Anything else on on on that? I mean, I I I there was some good feedback. Uh again, we may have some revisions for the 20th. If if not, we'll we'll bring this back after we had an opportunity to take a look at that stuff. I think it's great. All right.

It's moving along. So, good. Okay. So, we'll move on to uh item four, 2024 comprehensive plan. Okay. Real quickly, you So, I apologize. We we had prepared the the the written packets and then we made the decision this afternoon uh in there. So I have most of the written packets here. Uh but we made sure all the links were updated on the website, but that was only if you had the ability to take a look at the links uh prior to that. So I'm going to make the assumption that not not everyone did

uh in there. Uh but we do want to get moving on this process. So uh Don sent out the first survey um in there. We got everybody uh participated in in there in that process and I'm going to go through just a couple of things. I'm not going to go through the community the vision and the community goals. We all know uh all that we but I will focus a little bit on what the council is looking in terms of their priorities and that's the design quality and consistently on on olive the streetscape enhancements uh in terms of environmental sustainability is removing barriers to solar panels outdoor lighting regulations and continued improvements to storm water um and there and then diverse housing which is the first goal that we we address is the adjust zoning regulations to allow subdividing of larger lots into smaller lots. uh and new regulations to manage the size and impact of new homes and major developments in there. So goal A was to in in the comprehensive plans to encourage highquality housing that is diverse in terms of type and price. uh in there. The objectives that we heard uh from the you know as assembled from the community input was improve the quality and maintenance of all housing, increase housing types and accommodations that allow for age in place, maintain or increase housing that it's affordable, uh increase options for single family housing to respond to the changing demographics, preferences, um and there and encourage sustainable practices. Uh couple of facts. Uh so under our new permitting system which is now all uh you know uses data.

Yeah. Um are you processing that? Yes. We we can calculate things and so this goes back to January 2021 when we implemented that. I want the commission to know 225 property owners have done interior remodels to their homes. uh 85 have done basement finishes to their homes and 135 houses have done additions to their existing housing stock and you can see the the the the total amount. Um in that same period we've only done 73 new homes. Mhm.

Uh in there and you can see the the cost per permit uh in there. People are significantly investing on our housing stock. We have uh approximately 3,555 dwelling units in our community. Dwelling units include everything from a detached single family house to to an apartment complex. So we know about a thousand of those are apartments or attached homes. Uh so we have roughly 2500 detached single family houses in all of that. Now all this is in in the information in the comp plan. These are now directly from the comp plan in there. And you can see a majority of our housing stock was built in the 1950s. And then you can see like the the newest housing stock which is almost uh is is close to 15% that's repa you know has replaced some of those uh units. Now, understand that includes, you know, that we added 500 new apartments in the the past couple years uh in there and townhouse developments in in that process. So, make sure you're aware of these. So, these are factual numbers and we can get more data if there's any information any additional information the commission would like to take a look at uh in there. So now let's go to we asked the commission to kind of prioritize the potential community actions that were under this and this is where we came in and then what I've highlighted in yellow is where the council's priorities were. So the one that most the the top two that we heard from the commission the seven commission members was to consider code adjustments uh in terms of the subdividing of larger lots into smaller lots and then to develop a comprehensive housing plan. Uh then uh after that was the adoption

of a renters's bill of right and then support energy efficiency uh new regulations to manage size and bulk and then collaborate with local residential developers workshops partnerships and then uh provide external resources and then we had uh five additional uh community actions that were noted by by the commission members. I'll get into those later. So anyway, so we're going to go through each of these goals and put together something like this, what your results are, how they were uh prioritized, and then talk about it, and then ultimately kind of combine all eight to 10 goals, and then prioritize those so we know where we're focusing and also know where the council is and what they'd like to see uh in that process. A couple of things that that I wanted to note that that uh that like this one here, you know, the the Bill of Rights, that's probably that's not something that the commission's going to address. That will probably come from the council. um workshops, you know, probably something that the commission may not address, but there's a lot of things that our parks department does uh with uh the oliveette advocates, sustainability advocates,

uh with the Missouri Botanical Gardens and other sessions that they they hold. So there there's a lot of these things that are going on that are outside of correct in in there. So, you know, when as a commission takes a look at those, you know, consider those that that are within your your scope of uh of change and then those that that are not and we can provide you information of how those are moving along. Um, and the last one too, connect residents to external that seems more like a staff type of correct function. Yeah.

Yeah. In there. Now the uh the ones other items that the commission brought up were uh you know uh the accessory dwelling units uh tiny homes and pre-fabricated homes in efforts to control costs. Uh restrictions on allowing demolition by right uh there's been this question about massing requirements that I like to discuss. Uh the dis disincentive to older homes to defer maintenance due to the diminished long-term value and then concerns over how we review like houses one at a time. So we never get a a full holistic approach because we're always looking at uh you know things that are as at a puzzle but at the different pieces as opposed to the whole. And I think they're very all very good points

uh that are that are noted in there. But I think you know what what we're trying to get from staff is okay the if we were to say we need to focus on two specific items. What I'm hearing here is the subdivision of larger lots and a comprehensive planning housing plan that assesses the current housing stock. Uh so we kind of like brainstormed and you have though highlighted consider new regulations to manage size and impact highlighted. I mean yes and that's that's one of the that's uh one of the council's priorities. Okay. I thought the yellow were the two the two priorities. No, this is the commission rankings. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Okay. and then yellow. I didn't I didn't follow that. I'm sorry.

No, no. I apologize if I didn't explain it uh in there. So, uh what and how we did the rankings high got three points, medium got two points, and low got one point. Got

so this this is where the and and they're they're not far apart from from everything, but it gave us some idea to at least to put some some some some stock into it. So, you know, we've been talking about it internally from planning staff. we'll come back to the commission with some some thoughts and ideas. Be glad to, you know, depending on time we can go over or there's things I can bring forward or we can just kind of inform you this is the direction that we're going. Now, the latest survey, which is sustainability, uh was sent out by Don on Tuesday. It's a longer survey. Uh but please take the time and effort to to go through that. Should be on there. I'll I'll double check with her. Um and uh and try to get that done by Monday. Okay.

And then as we'll get these uh put together and then we'll continue to work on the council's priorities uh through all that process. But then this sets the you know and ultimately what I look at here is like the top two I'm just going to use that as a number or top three or top four you know is going to be probably our focus areas for the next five years. Those are shortterm and then things that are going to be longer term and then things that are always consistently moveins. But I do think m you know looking at smaller houses you know if we're going to subdivide lots how does that impact you know the types of houses?

So the way our massing calculations work they're based on a percentage. So the the larger the lot, the bigger the house. The smaller the lot, the smaller the house. So it's all based on the percentage uh in there. So So again, it goes in proportion. So if you if the city allows smaller lots, then they're promoting smaller homes.

No, I get that. But in terms of setbacks, you know, things like that, you know, do we if we start going into smaller lots, do we need to adjust some of the setbacks or not? We ran into that one time, I believe. I can't remember the street, but we were the houses that they were proposing was like right on the the setbacks and like the uh side doors were impacting like the step going into the side door, you know, that was a potential, you know, issue. And then I think it was if they had a uh air conditioning unit on the side of the house,

you know, so ways to kind of I mean look at that to still allow these smaller houses to to actually fit on the smaller lot. Correct. Might be something that we need to kind of think about. Well, and it ultimately depends and and I think from again I say that the the the council's minimum and this is what came from the commission as a recommendation that in no case should a setback be less than 5T. Yeah. Uh in there. So we don't in a residential setting we don't permit a zero lot line type of uh thing. So it's always been 5T and to have a clear and open path for attached.

Correct. But if it was if they were uh uh if they were attached houses then similar to across the street or Castle Cave Villas or Hilltop Manor we do permit the zero lot line okay process but in a detached home or detached setting then it would have been a 5ft distance and the reason it it is is because they also hit a a threshold in the building code that if they go under 10 ft uh then the firewall requirements completely change between the two structures. Right. Okay. Now, that's already anticipated when you're doing attached homes. Yeah. But not necessarily looked at when you're doing a detached home.

Exact. That's And then you might be able to do it for the new house, but you wouldn't be able to do it for the existing house, right? Yeah. Okay, I get that. Go ahead, Brad. Carlos, do you anticipate it's it is interesting to see where the councils line up with the commissions. Do you anticipate when we're done with this with the five or how many we're doing? Like we're going to kind of take which ones have the intersections and then us as council will kind of look at it and then determine where do we start talking about you know litigation. I mean not um you know actual amendments or changes to correct code.

The way I look at it the council's given us some direction of which ones that they are prioritizing. We're finding out where they fall. Now 16 is not far from 19. the rankings is, but that we would we would focus on the council's priorities and then also create the commissions. Now, the council at any time has a right to change the priorities and then bring it back to the commission. So, the way I kind of see this is like let's say if we I'm going to use a simple one. If we establish new regulations for solar panels, you know, that checks off one of the commission priorities, but it is possible that the commission may throw three more and we got to see how they fit in the commission's priorities. Yeah.

Or Well, and I could see I'd like to see it'll be interesting to see the big list at the end to say which ones were maybe in the top two or three and also met with us. And then we doesn't mean we wouldn't work in the others, but we prioritize on those. Makes sense because it's going to take time and I don't think we're going to do it in a silo. We want to do it. We're going to maybe have public comments. We want to come back to the commission and say what you think.

Um because again, my view of considering code adjustments such as permitting subdivision larger lots might be very different than everyone else's. And you know, knowing some of my commission members, I think, right, council members, I think we're probably very comfortable trying to figure out ways to find smaller houses, more affordable and things like that. But I want to ask you to what problems does that bring for you like you said? And I think setbacks is a great but it you know based on let's say the past five years the the response has been contrary to subdividing into small y

and we let's take sleepy hollow and old bottom and everybody complains about the three houses that replace that one house um in there and that you know so it is trying to figure out what what is the the actual issue and I think part of I hate to say part of it too is a different council you know and we have a different council and we have more change coming and so I think it's um you know new people new priorities things like that I cuz you get one person's opinion but my view is a diverse set of housing with diverse sizes diverse incomes diverse people are better absolutely

that's my view not everyone's view they more people are some people are concerned about their property values be higher and I get that I'm not saying I want property values to go down but there's a point of what is our objective so I think but this is good I'm glad we're having these conversations I think this was a very good first step and it's very uh starting to become more tangible so I think it's great

I was doing some searches on like Zillow that's by no means anything scientific but looking at you know houses that are less than 2,000 square feet that were built in the kind of the last five years and seeing where they were and you know what they look like. Um you could it they're definitely not in this central corridor. Uh but you see them in New City, you know, you um you see them kind of uh overland, you know, safe Boston smaller too which is exactly exactly so that that's interesting. And one of the things coming this goes to talking.

Sorry. I'm very sorry.

Can I can I just absolutely I'll be quick. I'll be quick. One of the things I did notice is most of the garages protrude out from the the the bu the house. Now, they look nice. They didn't look bad, but you they do look similar to each other. Now, I was probably picking up a similar builder doing the exact same thing, but trying to get unique houses that fit it could be a challenge, you know, as well. Um, but I don't think it's necessarily a deal breakaker. But how does that affect, you know, our uh our uh I for our whatever that plan, not a plan, it's our recommendations or what is that uh manual that we have.

Well, the guidelines you're saying the guidelines. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry about that. Okay, Carlos. Well, and because it was going back to the point you brought about overland city and there so you know I started my days in in Creek Core and we had four different single family residential detached districts

each with different lot size minimums. Then coming here to Alvette and finding that there was only one single family residential district. So we're trying to apply this this applies to all and U city had something similar right and apparently we must have taken it from U city and there was a decision in 1986 uh to I I think had three or four residential districts to consolidate it into one single family residential district. That's why when you see the map, it's all yellow uh in there and apply all of this throughout the city, you know, facing to everything.

Yeah. So, but you go to Creek Core and even in a ward, you can have multiple single family residential districts uh throughout that. And that was that that was interesting. And once I talked about like high acres, you know, that these are minimum 40,000 square foot lots per their indentures uh and all that. And per our code, you can get four houses on those. But were we really we you know what what are we going to do when that first one comes in? Because at that time the mindset was you know that that they wanted one acre lot. Yeah.

Uh in there and so the only way to to salvage something like that or like a Chevy Chase and where you have smaller lots is to create different you know they should be zoned differently. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And especially like in the Hilltop Arrow hood and Indian Meadows, you know, when they did the house pl placements, they usually put the carport within 5T of the lot line. So now to do uh twocar carport or twocar garage, you can't because our zoning, right, wouldn't permit it. But yet on the bedroom side, they're 20 30 feet from the property line. You know, it's like they need to swap land from one side to the other.

Yeah. It it it's very interesting on how some of those and it may be going back to their original indentures of what was their intent that maybe they there there have been some codes where it's like on one side you have no less than five, you know, like you have a a sideyard setback that should total 20 with no side being one side being no less than five. So you could allow five foot on the east and 25 on the west and the neighbor could have their five foot on the west but that means they have to fly their 25 Yeah. Yeah. Right. on the east. So there are some interesting things out there.

Right. Do do they are there any uh residences in u um Indian Meadows that have garage ports side by side? Uh yes, but you know and there's their setbacks, you know, but not like within 10 ft of each other. Is that what you Yeah, but yes, but the the layouts are about the same.

About Okay. Interesting. So, another thing we thought thought about about the comprehensive housing plan, we we have a house that's coming in uh on the 20th and we we looked at that is okay, why is that, you know, why are they redeveloping that lot? And that that house has, you know, one bathroom on the first first level for the three bedrooms and a half a bathroom in the basement in a partial portion of a basement and a carport. It wasn't that the house was in was like a deteriorated condition. It could have used some some

uh some pickme up on on it, but it was a single carport one there. No master bath uh and and the small small rooms, you know, within a quarter mile from Old Bonum School. So the the the only value to that property was the ground because the house you you weren't going to pay pay the price, you know, to be that crazy a school for for that structure. It could be done, but you're going to have less customers that would be willing. And if you have less customers that would be willing to do that, then you're going to have a lower price. Then we follow

or you have or you have, you know, young families that can't afford $600,000 and would be happy to have a house with three bedrooms and one bath so that they could walk to a le school. if a property owner is willing to take that discount. Well, the demolition value is already a discount,

right? I mean, like one of the one of the things that I think I I feel like we're seeing is why would if you have a small house like I happen to have with one bedroom or two bedrooms and and one bath on the first floor is I have no incentive to improve or maintain my house because the minute I want to put it up for sale, it's going to get demolished and a big house put in its place. And so you I think we have to think about, you know, that these smaller homes have value if you want to have a diverse community. And and so you're you're you're beating between two, you know, o opposite viewpoints. one is to get better housing, bigger housing, whatever, versus your desire to have, you know, aging in place and affordability and, you know, and still maintain smaller homes. But if if everybody is like looking to make a buck, you know, down the road when we die and our kids have to sell the house, they don't care. They don't care if the house has been improved. They just want as much as they can get for it, and they're going to get more for demolition value. Um, so I I don't know. I just I think it's a it it's a real big dilemma for us um that I think, you know, we shouldn't just say, "Oh, one bathroom is not good enough for a single family home." I I you know I just don't

I guess I'm just not seeing that in this day and age with with you know families not being able to afford homes that it's to our benefit and somehow a policy that you know that home get replaced by you know a sixbedroom threecar garage you know house. I I just don't the disconnect just feels really off to me if we're if we are saying we care about affordability and we care about diversity. That's just that's like I said, that's just my opinion. But I don't I don't think anybody's thinking about why these these small houses are deteriorating and becoming quote dilapitated. It's because they have no reason to do improvements. They're not going to get the value of the improvements if if every little house gets demolished. So that's my two cents. No, I think it's a good point and I'm I'm not I'm not going to discredit that point, but I lived in Chvy Chase. I had one and a half bathrooms, you know, and I had four kids. I I couldn't live in there, you know, uh really easily, you know, and we looked at doing a big addition, you know, to to add basically we wanted to add one bedroom, you know, so our kids had had rooms and uh and then also add a bath. and the price to to do that addition was going to be far more than what we would uh what we what that the value of the new house with the addition would be. Um and and it be construction on those smaller houses is it's tough. And they basically told us we were going to have to move out because the only access point, you know, was going to be through the only

bathroom we had, you know, and so, you know, it it it became an economics issue. Um, but that house is still there, you know, and it's still being lived at, you know, so I think there's definitely a value. They did not uh tear it down. I mean, it was in good shape when I had it. There was a contractor, the the the next owner um sold it to a contractor who just kind of renovated it and it it's still around. So, I definitely think there's u there's a market, you know, for houses like that. Um um and it's how how do we kind of encourage, you know, people to to want to do renovation as opposed to just selling it to a developer or or something like that. I don't know. Um that's the that's kind of the a challenge I think. Um, but I do think that you you have to acknowledge the fact that if if your house, you know, doesn't have a garage or if it doesn't have, you know, um, so many bathrooms, the the the number of people that are going to be looking at that house, you know, your market is is diminished, you know, um, and that's just the reality of, I think, housing, the housing market. Um, so go ahead.

So I also agree with you, Petri. Like I grew up over off a hilltop. I lived off a hilltop my entire life until 5 years ago. And it was a I grew up in a two-bedroom house with one bathroom. Mhm. And then I lived in what was my great-g grandandmother's house. She gave it to my husband and I for our wedding gift. Nice, right?

Um, right. and it was honestly right across the street from my mom's house. So, it was really nice and convenient. But again, that one was three bedrooms with one bath and a detached garage that was not really functional because of the way the driveway was. You had to like jog to get into the garage. So, a car couldn't get between the house and the neighbor's fence because of the property lines and their fence was it was very odd. So, a car couldn't get between the two the houses to get back to the garage. So, the garage was inaccessible for a car. So, when we were moving, like we had talked about tearing down and making a larger kitchen because I literally had like 16 in of counter space in that house and was miserable. So, I wanted a larger kitchen. So, like I I had a priority list when we were moving and the was a larger kitchen. I wanted a attached garage. I wanted certain things. I wanted two bathrooms with having a teenager and I wanted to stay in the school district. That was our son's number one priority. I can't even tell you how many houses I looked at. And you know, did I get the perfect house? No. Am I happy? Yes. But I also didn't buy one of the McMansions either. Um I couldn't afford one. I wouldn't want one either. One of my absolutely favorite houses is for sale right now over in Chvy Chase. And

yeah, it's just sitting there. Just sitting there. Yeah. And it's a I love that house and I'm just like, "Oh, that house is Yes. It's one of my favorite houses in this whole community and it's for sale right now and I'm like, "Oh, it's such a cute house."

But, you know, so I see that I see both sides of it. like it's very hard to do construction on some of those older homes because of the types of walls. Um like you go to hang a picture and you hit a nail in and the wall crumbles cuz it's the old plaster, not even drywall. Like it's there's complications with it. There is a gentleman um who has done a couple like really good rehabs um here in the community. Um he did um I know a couple in Indian Meadows that he's done a fabulous job. Um he did one also up across from Stacy Park and then he is done another one over off of Old Bono. So, I mean, there are people, but again, you know, I don't know. I don't have the perfect answer. I I would like to see some more affordable housing because I mean, I was looking everywhere and I agree that 650,000 is not what I would consider affordable housing. So,

I curious of the these renovators, you know, what their thoughts are of renovating in Olivet. Well, you know, I can get Carlos his name and contact info. So, I mean, that'd be good because because I know he's done a couple, so he probably has his number. Yeah. Yeah. Because that would be interesting. It's not that I don't like new construction. I think it needs to be a balance, but the easiest way to have affordable house is to reuse an existing house to build. It's also the greenest, most sustainable way of meeting those goals. When they were going to tear ours down, he came over and I told him he could take whatever he wanted out of my house, right?

And he's like, "What?" And I was like, "They're going to tear it down, so take whatever you want." But, you know, even to build, let's say, a a house, you know, a smaller house, take whatever street you want. what would the price be for a new construction of a smaller house that's you know 2,000 square feet you know uh you know and I think it's worthwhile to kind of understand what what that cost would be you know from a new construction point of view to kind of help understand what is affordable here in

and I think going back to the conversation of I think builders if there's a lot that's large are going to build the largest house they can because there will be someone who will buy it and they're going to make the most money that way. So, back to the number one there on the list is if we have smaller lot sizes that kind of forces the hand of smaller houses. Mhm.

So, I think I struggle. I hear everything everyone's saying. I do struggle because there might be people who just can't afford to upkeep their house and then they go to try to sell it. And to your point, there's very few people looking for one threebedroom, one bath. There are some and agree with Peter. love to have a young family come in who can't afford it, but if they can get, I don't know, I'm making this up, 400,000 from a developer versus 200,000 from a sale, they're going to go, you know, it's going to be they couldn't afford to keep it up because maybe fixed income. But I think if we're able to look at things like smaller houses, smaller lots,

if that starts pushing it to where people are going to build really nice houses on smaller lots, it's still not be better. On that point, Brian, I wonder, Carlos, do we have copies of all the indentures of all the different homeowners associations to see if if there what requirements are there that would even if we would change the code in some way allow for smaller lots. Um, we would be budding into deed restrictions by the HOAs. I'm just curious, do we really even have the capacity to to change, you know, to address this issue if the requirements are, you know, by most homeowners associations, you have to have an an acre lot or or half acre or whatever it is. Do we have all those those indentures?

No. That might be an interesting, you know, we we could be wasting our time talking about all of this, you know, if if all these homeowners associations, you know, would prevent us from dividing up some of these larger lots into smaller lots. Um, that may not be even a possibility with the D restrictions of an HOA. So, yeah, I just learned at our annual HOA meeting that we can't have two stories. I didn't know that.

Yep. And that that's the the the the position of the city in the past and this is going before me was like subdivisions were to the city was not going to interfere with the subdivision and their indentures and wanted a complete separation. I think that's kind of changed and I think that the council is probably more uh acceptable to it. But like we would not keep any of the indentures and we wanted nothing to do with the the um the trustees or or the process. Um in there and it I mean and some of the the thought was I think the attorney at the time too was their recommendation to the council like you you enforce just the city's regulations and you let the subdivision do their own. We've changed a lot of that. We work closely with Chvy Chase and their architectural review board um with Indian Meadows Oak Estates. We know when something comes in who to contact, but there's still there's so many subdivisions here. There are several that I don't even know who they are. And then most importantly is like do they know that their indentures have expired because there was never a vote taken to to renew them after their their their 20 year or 30-year period. Um, and there are other subdivisions that are having a hard time trying to amend their indentures so they can assess more than $50 a year.

Am I correct? Again, going to your HOA, right now the law states because twotory houses are allowed. In theory, someone in your subdivision could build it. And yes, the AHOA could try to sue them. Correct. It' be it's legal to build it. It's a question of if they go to court. So yeah, it it would be a contractual it's a contractual obligation that you have with your home ownership

if you but was somebody wanted to do an addition and put a twotory like a twotory addition in and they had to get so many signatures of neighbors to approve it and they got the signatures but then decided not to do it and then so there was some kind of whole thing. But let's just say they did it and the only recourse would be your HOA taking them to court. You all want that would be their option. You all want to put the money down to right retain council and fight. Correct.

And then that's the thing like so let's say if somebody from the Kings Queensbrook subdivision came straight to the city or before the commission and proposed a two-story home or an addition, we're obligated to approve it if it complies with the city's dimensional standards. regardless of what the city's indent regardless of what the subdivision indentures have. It's definitely a lawsuit. Lawsuit is the way that that they would enforce their indentures. Um so you may be buying yourself you may get city approval, but you may be buying yourself a lawsuit. That's right. But

and under HOA law, um I only know this because I was in charge of a a humongous HOA is that other people in the HOA can sue the HOA for not enforcing their own indentures. So, it's it's fraught with problems and it's an expensive way to deal with it, which is partly why I think it's nice that the city does at least make an effort to get the HOA's, you know, input, you should say. Yeah, I to I think that's that's good. It's always that fine line.

Yeah. Well, I think this is this is a great start. I'm looking forward to kind of seeing where it goes. Uh I'm doing my own homework kind of on the sides, you know. Uh but I think it's uh it's interesting. I'm glad we're going through this. Great. Carlos, can you those those facts, can you send those to all of us? Sure. Those were great. I would like to spend a little more time looking at that. I'd love to look at 2025 after all the apartments. Yeah. Yeah. How how how how uh current data can you get from this? Is this just sense census?

Correct. And I think they have now up to the 2024. So this was the the the the most available data at the time that we were putting the plan together. Yeah. The the these these have been I mean there's potential that we can find updates to these numbers here. Now, these are from our permits. I mean, these these are current. Right. Right. Well, this is good good information. I would love to see if we can get more updated about the I I'm sure that's kind of part of the goal of the housing stock and taking a look at it. So, that's going to be very interesting. All right.

Good. Good. Thank you, Carlos. All right. Um, if there's no other talk or discussion on that, then we'll move on to reports. Carlos, uh, just actually if we can get the meeting minutes or you want to hold off on that the meeting minutes. Yeah. Uh, and I don't think those online got the the ability to take a look at those. So, we'll we'll defer those. Okay, that sounds great. I forgot about that. It wasn't on the agenda. Uh, good point. I just had it on. It was on the Jack, we appreciate your hard work, though. Uh, in Is still on or did he leave?

Yes, I'm on. My camera has crashed, but I am on. The game. All right. Good, good, good. So,

just a couple of things starting on the east side. Uh, you work continues at the Brass Tap and the um, uh, Paris Baguette. Uh, they they they're doing their interior work. Uh, they will be the owners will be guests at Coffee at the Mayor in January. uh talk about their story and there's the reason why they selected u uh alvet and that that locations in there. So encourage you if you have the opportunity to attend that's great. Uh we're still waiting for the developer to confirm if they are going to pursue restaurants. I think that I mean it's probably 98% that they are but they have not announced what those restaurants would be uh in there. Um, and then they got the hotel approval. I do have those revisions and I after we conclude I I'll I'll post it up real real quickly, but they did break up that that mass and I forgot to bring that back to you.

Okay. Uh, in there we did put put it in the I think it the updated one is in the newsletter.

Um, and there across the street we anticipate the place apartments to be ready by March 2026. They're going to start setting up the the uh the model the model units and and be opening to the public probably like around February. Uh if you get a chance, it's a it's a nice looking site. They put up the uh the buffer screen wall, the landscaping. They've taken a lot of the construction fencing uh down and it should be a really nice streetscape along Alice. public works has done work on on the two opposite ends providing the connection to Hilltop uh with access to the east side of Hilltop and that was one of the main goals. So now it's now all once the apartments get completed we'll have that whole neighborhood interconnected with the industrial park and the the uh the greenway greenway is working um on the next phase uh which is the the trail from CVS all the way up to Dilman Road on the north end. Uh things are progressing. Uh there was one property that they were trying to get um final purchases on and it looks like that's all coming into place now. Uh so hopefully that will pick up. Uh as you head uh westward, the council did approve the the special permit for the restaurant that uh easy storage. However, there's been a communication issue with the with the uh restaurant operator. it's the the the more of a like uh being able to communicate with each other and and all that. So, we're still hoping and trying to the press, you know, them to move on and their permitting uh and all that uh as in there. And and I think that kind of concludes if there's any questions on any of the other sites. I think um Turkey TRA had over 2,000 participants and broke a a record in there. And then the last thing I'll note is uh you know is commission members and and all that that

the uh oh they took it off. You know it is uh open for for the council seats. There are two council seats uh that will be up for this year uh in there and I think you have till December 16th to apply. Excuse me. And then uh January 1st um we I can't have a meeting on a holiday, so that one will be cancelled. Uh I don't see a need to to do a rescheduling, but if the commission is concerned, please let me know. Our next meeting will be uh on the 18th and we do have one new home and uh I believe a pool as part of the agenda.

Good, good, good. That's all I have. Okay. Right. Carlos stole most of my good stuff. Sorry. No, that's okay. The turkey trout was $32,500. That was very exciting. Nice. Pulled. Um and then yeah, the city council seats uh open at this point, but um those are kind of the main things. Good, good, good. All right. Any other uh any other discussion or comments? Seeing none, we'll adjourn at 8:45. Thanks everybody. Thank you all. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.