Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Go ahead.

All right.

Let's call to order.

Obamacare historic district. Yes. July six. We're going to call to order. I need a gavel.

Where's my gavel? Thank you. So

need to approve both the regular meeting minutes and then special meeting minutes so first um motion to approve the june i make a motion to approve the june 1st regular meeting minutes second care any comments questions all in favor aye aye um make a motion to approve the june 8th special meeting minutes Second, Carolyn. Any comments? All in favor? Public comment. Greg, you're here. Any public comment? Are you listening today?

I was curious to hear if you would talk at all about this meeting, this webinar or whatever it was for the high-speed rail, but obviously I didn't attend. There's a lot to say. But if not, you know, I'm just here.

I'll make a comment in the next section in the co-chair's report. Well, go ahead. If you have a public comment, go ahead and make.

My public comment would be simply, it's easy to complain about anything. In this case, previously, we had in some ways been concerned about a formal process that presupposed a given end. So the idea is that the rules of a formal process would end up with the same results because you get rid of, you keep the goals and you just run it again and get the same results. So in this case, my understanding, what's tricky is we now have the government running what they seem to suggest is an informal process, governed by no clear rules or processes or standards that I can make sense of with potentially formal lens. So it makes it a different beast to think about and engage because there are no clear rules that they have to follow or for us to formally engage with the process or alter informant. So, you know, So it's a funny beast. And to some extent, that's how it exists, as I understand it, on the regulatory level. You know, they just came out with redoing the meatball ball. So we don't even know what the rules of the road are. So it just makes it a kind of interesting piece. But whatever. That's my one comment.

Well, I mean, I guess we could. You saw it too, right?

Yeah, go ahead. Why don't we go to the co-chair's report and we can respond to that.

So go ahead, John. Let me mention one other issue first. The zoning meetings are ongoing about the regulations revision. And they have had one, they divided into two stages. They have a community workshop where they hear community comments about a topic. And then they follow that up with a focus group study, more in-depth discussion involving boards and commissions who may be interested. The first of and then they always are willing to accept written written comments. The first meeting was about environmental issues and they concluded the. Focus group discussion on June 24th. I I believe or held it then upcoming in August. I don't have an exact date yet is one where that's billed primarily on housing issues. And then the third one in the fall, again, I don't know the date, is on commercial issues. And there's another document that talks about future discussion of signage. I believe at a certain point the HDC will be invited to participate, but we can participate in any of these earlier ones. And I think potentially important is the one on commerce because there is some in the historic district and there could be discussion of changes that from zoning's perspective, at least, if not ours, might affect the operation of home businesses, for example, as well as the operation of the Cooley Gallery and other standing businesses. So I will let you know the dates when I know them, and we can coordinate attendance and participation. Second, I also listened to the Zoom that launched Preservation Connecticut's 10-year plan. In truth, I thought it was phrased in very general language, the importance of education and the importance of input for our purposes. there was a brief mention of Ridgefield's work in connection with demolition guidelines and regulations. And as we get into that, that might be worth touching base with Ridgefield. And then the third thing was this Amtrak session. They have, it was a, I thought professional presentation, but my takeaway was that Greg is right. If you listen hard, there are not a lot of specifics. There was one question about whether they were, and they got to a Q&A at the end. They had time only for a few questions. There was one question about whether they were strictly bound by the metrics of the previous study and it was a it was a really rather wishy-washy answer yes we those are important but we're also reacting to public comment and so i don't know where that leaves us uh potentially helpful is they promised in response to questions and repeated that the entire presentation would be available and all the questions would be answered in writing and would be sent to all participants. So I know Russ and I asked a few questions that were not, they didn't have time to get to, and so we should be hearing.

These were texted to them, not.

Yes, the only way they allowed the submission of questions questions was through the chat function on the webinar. The timeframe for completion to end is, they started right then, they said, we anticipate it will be all wrapped up within 22 months.

I don't know, Rusty, do you have any other takeaways? I wanted to get some key points of information out that should be available. First off, there is a website, and it's newhavenprovidencestudy.com. This summer, they mentioned that they were going to have pop-up events. Okay. At fairs. Yeah, Rocky Neck State Park, Old Mystic Village, and Brooklyn Fair. The Brooklyn Fair is August 27th through 30th, right? They did not give a date for Rocky Neck State Park or Ole Mystic Village. There is also proposed pop-up events in Rhode Island, Washington County Fair. the PVD Fest, and a third location. And that's in August 12th through the 16th on the first one. And then the PVD Fest is, which is Providence Fest, I guess, 18th and 19th. And I would say those dates should be confirmed and checked on their website. The other thing that is an important understanding. I just had it up here. So if you look at their website, you'll notice that there's partnerships with Connecticut DOT, Rhode Island DOT, MassDOT, the Northeast Corridor Commission, the Federal Railroad Administration, and Amtrak, and the study is being sponsored by Amtrak. So it's not a DOT project. or FRA study. It's an Amtrak study. I just wanted to get those points out. And I'm seeing on their website a 24-month engagement, coordination, and analysis for the study schedule, John, right here. Oh, they say 24.

They did say 22 at the meeting, but that actually might have been, I don't know when they formally launched the website. Maybe that was 24 months from the launch of the website. Right.

And I think we are going to post, have we posted the website, Martha? So it's posted, the study website is on the Historic District Commission website for anybody that wants to visit that.

Also posted is a link to the meeting where Greg gave his, I thought, very helpful overview of it. the history of this, so that's 20 minutes if somebody wants to kind of get their head into what's going on.

One other comment, and you'll see this on the website, I think everybody should take a look at it, is the study area includes kind of a trapezoidal area from New Haven to Providence and also includes Hartford. I know there had been discussions that Hartford was off the table. That was not apparently clear in the meeting and for what it's worth. And so I think the map is kind of interesting for the study area. And everybody should pay attention to that, whether that's.

Well, I don't know. They have the marketing study that indicated Hartford was off the map and Whether they want to reopen that door, I'm a little skeptical, but it's not officially off the table. Do you have others?

I think that's it. I just want to get some basic facts out there for the record. And I think that's... And your point is well noted, Greg.

I should report I have not... But I don't think the Commission has yet done anything beyond posting this information in terms of outreach to other entities in the historic district. I have had a conversation with Peter Steer at the museum, and he's well aware of the seriousness of this, and I believe is going to be involved in some follow-up meetings. about this issue. So if they're on board, that would be important.

I have a question, John. Is there any indication of what the pop-up events, for example, at Rocky Neck, what is that going to include? Is it just a promotion or are they looking for feedback or do you have any idea?

They described it as feedback or communication opportunities with the general public. Now, what that actually is, I don't know. There may be more clarity on the website. Yeah.

I'm sorry. I just have little vignettes of them going around with the mic to somebody waiting in line for the Ferris wheel saying, what do you think about it? Right. Again, I don't know.

I don't know what their intent is, but they're... Maybe just check the box.

You know, that's very often the intent. Say, look what we've done. Right.

It could very well be. The question is the sincerity of the interest in getting and receiving public and organizations like ours input. And it's difficult when there's not a clear regulatory process for this.

I have a couple of questions about John's report. co-chair report. Is that appropriate now?

Sure.

Yeah. Does anyone have or has it been made known what the commercial plans for the Halls Road area is going to be? Is there any information, advance information about what the new owners of the shopping center have planned? They must have a plan.

I don't have any new information.

I don't either. The zoning regs revision project has a separate page link and they're posting all the the comments about the proposed regs they have posted the comments that we submitted early on they have just posted zba's comments um and they also have a few private individuals making making comments um So not through that vehicle is there yet available any information.

Greg, do you have any information?

Because of HB 8002, the new housing bill, they have to, they had, there's sort of this weird window from June 15th to July 1st where it's not, there's no real regulations and the laws already have gone into effect. but it will allow, it will change mixed use and potentially some parking requirements.

It doesn't, as it will across the state, it doesn't, it's not hugely significant. It's relatively small mixed use.

Halls Road is constrained by septic and sewer But the town has to accommodate or should write rules to, because basically it says you have to allow this, but how you allow it is under your own rules. So currently we have no rules. So they have to write the rules to implement this law. So how they do that, I haven't heard anything. But it would be interesting to have a conversation across the state. So, So, but essentially, you think the possibility of apartments on Halls Road is, you know, very high. Very high? Pretty high, if the developers want it. And, you know.

Wasn't there a discussion about whether you had to have, for any residential, you have to have a commercial component in an industrial, in a commercially zoned area?

You know, they change the rules all the time.

We don't know.

I won't be the exact rules. I'm not even sure at the moment. But we will be checking on that and writing.

In the zoning survey that was sent around, that type of use was the focus of one of the questions.

Yes, exactly. And my As of yesterday, there was a link saying, want to take our zoning survey? I didn't click on it, but I believe it's officially closed as of the end of the month. They reported over 500 responses.

So housing, you know, just as before, when we considered the overlay district, housing plus commercial use both have an impact on the historic district. We'll have a chance to be involved in that.

Right. Okay.

Secretary's report. Let's see.

Okay, so we are still monitoring 18 situations in the Historic District Commission. The only one that's coming up for any kind of action is One Lime Street. The C of A for renovations of the Fortune Foundations expires this month. So we need to have them come back in September and I'll have an update on what they're doing with that. Everything else seems to be pretty good. The The structure that is showing up at center school in the entrance area is temporary. That's just to secure the building while they install the door and everything. And was there one other thing that was a question?

Well, with the status of the flag overhanging the sidewalk at 19 meals.

It's an American flag. It's not an open flag.

They had had an open flag.

Yeah, the open flag is gone. I sent them an email and I have not heard anything back from them. So I think it depends on what they do with their American flag.

Nightingales had a huge open sign.

Yeah, I let them know that if they want to have anything like that, they need to apply for that.

This morning there was an American flag. Maybe that just left over from the 4th. It could be, yeah.

Is there an update on the former ice cream shop? Have they submitted a like for like? Where does that one stand?

On the roof.

The roof and the painting and the doors.

They're doing something with the soffits as well.

Yeah, we did get a like for like for the little shingles on the windows. That was all they put on there.

Well, and the partial roof, whatever this strip of facade is.

What was the last thing you mentioned, Ed? They're doing repairs on the soffits along the sides of the building.

Was that covered in their form?

They didn't mention that, no.

That should be followed up. Yeah. Is the house that is just to the south of the Art Academy on your list?

The one in the back?

The one on the road on lime street the one that used to be senator dodds oh yeah shingle is that on your list no are they doing something there there's a i believe a flag and a banner that has been up for a while and um i know there have been some comments about it and i know it's not been approved so you might want to i mean i assume we should just notify people of uh

That's the Denison. Denison.

Yeah. Okay. Notify them.

And are we assuming that anything that's been erected for the 250th is just temporary? So, for example, in the Murgie's front yard, the big structure? Eagle?

Yeah.

I assume that's temporary. But we don't, yeah, we don't comment on those.

Well, is a decoration a structure?

if it's affixed to the ground.

So a flying eagle. A truly flying eagle would be okay. Yes.

A flyover. Nightlights as well.

Yes. I noticed that too. The house you mentioned, John, the artist, the Ebert house, has an Uncle Sam statue or decoration. That's not the house I mentioned. Oh, that's not the house?

I was mentioning the Oh, it's Brown House. Next to Gilborough's driveway. Right next to that. Oh, okay. Okay, maybe it's not the Ebert House, I thought. No, Ebert was the one next to the daffodil field. You're right.

Well, let me ask the question. I mean, during the holiday season, people put up holiday. During Halloween, people put up. Is this not something very similar to that?

Right.

And is that, I mean, I don't think that's something that we want to get too involved with, right?

And the nautical flags in front of the House of Cross from the Lyme Academy have been up for a while, but that's a decoration I see.

We do have on the table still the question of, which will come up when we talk about signage guidelines, about guidelines for certain recurring temporary signs. Martha, you may want to note in your communications with, and I'm blanking on her name, the head of the Youth Services Bureau who was talking about coordinating the session. When I met with Eric Knapp most recently, he expressed a willingness to participate whenever people wanted. I mean, obviously subject to his availability, so you might communicate to her that, you know, we are leaving it up to them to come up with a date, but Eric's willing to attend.

Oh, good.

So.

Okay. Well, right into signs. So side guidelines.

Okay, as you see, what I did this time was accept all the changes that had been presented over the various months that were all in bold, and all I've included here are in bold changes since the document you saw in June. So there's one that just is really technical at the end of the second paragraph. Take a look at what I added to the first one. I think as with the military markers, when you have a sign that is affixed to a structure or building, that we're technically dealing with an exterior architectural feature, which is something attached to a structure or building that is visible from a public way. And rather than try to create a separate category, structural signs are ones that are stuck in the ground directly. is to lump them all under the definition of a structural sign. The only difficulty that might raise has to do with point four on duration and removal. the removal or demolition of a structural sign requires an approved C of A. I believe that's still accurate with exterior architectural features, signs that are on a building or on, because they then are alterations. I mean, if you're removing something, you are altering an exterior architectural feature. It's not a demolition, obviously, if the structure itself isn't taken down, but I do think that sort of change would require a C of A. If someone has a noticeable sign and they want to change it or remove it, I mean, if they want to remove it, either leave it off or remove it and replace it with something else they need to come in.

Right. An examiner is a good example. Now what about the only other scenario is if it's one of these signs where they're changing like the old Lyman sign that has a structure and then has additional signs attached to it. and they're changing those signs out. To me, that wouldn't fall under this category.

Well, what I would say, there is, yeah, I mean, I think we are, to my mind, that technically falls under as an approved temporary sign. Right. If it's changeable. Right. That's my understanding. So, you know, the museum doesn't come in every time they're, changing their side banner for a new exhibition. Right.

I just want clarity on that.

Some place I read that temporary signs no longer than 35 days. What if the owner of that temporary sign wants to extend it beyond that? Well, I don't think it was a hard and fast Do you know where that... Yeah, it's under duration and removal at the last paragraph from the end.

Well, that's a good point. Maybe in effect we have, if we're approving exhibition signs, about changing it to read the HDC does not normally approve.

Well, I'm thinking... Or... I have a practical reason for asking. The cemetery association is going to want to put up a sign at the foot of Library Lane, hopefully on the library property, announcing that the access to the cemetery is closed to visitors or whatever the message will be. And the duration of the project is three months.

Hmm.

Well, why don't we just leave the sentence off? I mean, when you apply for a temporary sign, you have a time frame.

If you're applying, you know, you're a... We would set the time frame individually.

Customize it to the request. We really struggled with that of the timing for the painter or the landscaper.

Right.

I think that's different. Right. So are you going to look at long-term temporary or case-by-case basis?

Well, with respect to a contractor sign, are you talking about or a realtor sign? Well, we... We have that special section, which we're hunting down the road for a couple months, that would address those signs specifically.

The contractor is a wire sign. What type would this be, a wire sign?

It would have to be large enough so it was visible as you approach the street so that you don't go down Library Lane. That's the point, to keep people off Library Lane.

Because the neighbors are very concerned about it.

It's very sensitive.

people accessing the cemetery and thereby making Library Lane, which is already... Where do they access it there?

Where did they not remember before? We're going to have a temporary road that will be connected to the driveway of 30 and 30-1 Library Lane. So it's over private property to get to another private property that has given us permission to go over there to get to the cemetery just for funerals and maintenance people, but not the general public. Hopefully not.

Hopefully the bridge project will only last for three months. We're working very, very hard on that to contain it, but the bridge has to be restored and there's no other access to the cemetery. It's just, we've tried every possible way to think about how to do it. But what the sign should look like, we haven't even discussed. So very open to your suggestions about what kind of sign would serve the function. It would have to be something on post.

Like somebody putting up a

Permity sign. But this is a good example of a sign that's not going beyond a year or it's not thought of as a long-term sign. It's temporary, but it's not just... It's not a reoccurring sign. It's not reoccurring, but it needs to last longer than 30 days.

Right.

So I like the ability on a case-by-case to be able to set these. And I agree with John that if we're going to deal with the contractor and the realtor signs specifically and give a duration for that, I mean, that's the most frequent recurring temporary sign.

This is almost like a detour sign.

Right. We also have recurring temporary signs that announce the concert tonight. Right. So I don't see any way other than just leaving off the sentence. I think you're right. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Good point, Ed.

I feel like the longer that we keep going over this, I know incidences come for us and, you know, we have to respond accordingly.

Well, maybe it's, maybe it's helpful to go through the process just for that. The only, the next change is, in bold is at the bottom of page three. And I'm trying to describe the, I spent more time than I should have. It was late at night, so I wasn't going to do anything else. Looking on the websites at, so-called pavement signs, which are, I would use as the generic category for the musical masterwork signs. And some are cheap looking and some are stable. But it's a type of sign that if we're willing to approve any portable signs, I think makes sense. So I've described it as solid and vertical. In other words, not a sandwich board. And non-moving. A lot of them have vertical stands, but the sign flaps.

Can we describe the materiality? That's tough.

Most of them seem to be plastic.

Some type. I think that's what Musical Masterworks is. It's laminated, printed. Yeah. I like the idea of picking a type

It's kind of, you get some uniformity. I mean, one of the issues when you have, it's the multitude of signs in the district, but also, and not that we don't want to have creativity or different, but if you have something that is in keeping with maybe one or two types of signs, I think that helps to mitigate the eye intrusions.

I can't really judge. I mean, you can look at pictures. These things aren't cheap. That would be a concern. $400 or $500 for the frame. They're really cheap looking ones for $250.

But they can be reused, right?

It's not clear. I don't know.

Like if an organization bought one.

I believe so, but I don't know You know, to get any sort of nice-looking sign in the middle, I don't know what you could do. You'd have to have some kind of a laminated sign that can fit over the space that's provided. My guess is that would not be cheap. You know, to get a full-size sign that's attractively lettered and laminated.

Well, this is why we wanted to have that meeting with the different organizations to see if we could collectively come up with a design idea.

The question is, what do we want to do now? We're returning to Realtor Signs, I hope in the fall. So there will be another revision of this. There will be another technical revision when the zoning regs are done.

John, did you see the images that I sent you of that realtor signs, the small ones in line?

When we got to realtor signs, I was going to turn to you and say, Deb, talk to us about realtor signs. Hold on.

I'm very reluctant to issue a regulation that... It's not a regulation. Or not a regulation. Guideline. Guideline. That says to the... Well, the organizations view it as a regulation, even though it's a guideline that is cost prohibitive for them. I mean, I just think that they'll look at us like, you guys are crazy. We can't do that.

It involves a lot of planning and printing A lot of times they were saying, we don't have a lot of notice at these events. Right.

Well, I don't have a solution. I really don't. I mean, unless we break down and say, yeah, wire signs, fine.

No.

Sandwich board signs.

Well, maybe that's it. Maybe we list what we don't approve and let them figure out something else. Maybe that's it.

Well, that's what we've done, and then It's been ignored. I remember, who is it from the library? Katie? Katie. Coming in and saying, what do we do? We can't. Your suggestion is too expensive. We're not going to put in a post and beam for temporary announcements and you probably wouldn't approve another post and beam there anyway.

It's almost like we need a fund to A historic GoFundMe page. Right?

By each one of them, a set of signs.

Well, what's your pleasure?

We can leave out everything up to the HTC is happy to work collaboratively with businesses and nonprofits to identify appropriate types of Temporary signage. I like that. That's what's the last sentence that's in here.

I mean, maybe it doesn't hurt to list what you've described, the pavement sign, if that's something that we all feel is appropriate, even though it's expensive, and then just keep that we're willing to work through other solutions.

I think it's okay the way it is, actually. I mean, yeah, I think it's worded carefully. These are ones that we consider appropriate. We're happy to work with you if you have questions and seems okay to me. I'm not sure how it could be improved. I'm not sure.

I mean, Katie, you know, maybe some, some nonprofits have donor bases and they can call up somebody and say, give us a thousand dollars and let's cure this sign.

thing and get something that's right but if it's for four to five hundred dollars i mean that four hundred dollars let's say to take the low end is not prohibitive for for many organizations non-profits i mean the library certainly has that flexibility but it is it's repeating though that that was my question about can you reuse it if it's if they have to do it every time they do a new sign yes that's cost prohibitive that's very true

But maybe they can figure that out. I mean, that's the point.

If you create the situation, maybe there's... And didn't we, correct me now, because this is going way back, but didn't we at one point allow sandwich board signs or not prohibit them if they were taken down, you know, in non-business hours? I believe I remember that we were very strict about how they had to be taken down at five and they could only... So that would cover something like the book

book sale is on as long as they put it up at 10 and take it down at five do we want to is that an option it's inexpensive excuse me the library sandwich board sign is really cheap looking you know they're i'm sure a price a price range for sandwich board signs right um we can i i I think that's a sort of accommodation that we might want to discuss if we have a full discussion of various options. I'm not sure I would lead with that.

What I was thinking of was, could we live with a temporary sandwich board sign only during business hours for a nonprofit or whatever, maybe for for-profits also, if we specified the size? the material, the, you know, the, the, the, the features, if we specified that it has to be no bigger than this and made out of that structure can only be up during these hours. Would we, could we live with that? And would that be an option for people who don't want to put up a, you know, another, I don't know.

I'm throwing it out. There's another, there's another fly in the ointment.

The, um, Maybe that doesn't apply to...

But if it's a regular sign to announce business hours, let's say, that somebody would put out every day, I don't think that's permitted under the zoning rings. In a residential district, you cannot have any affluent framed signs, any portable signs, commercial signs. Even for banners. The regs permit temporary banners if posted by a school, a governmental organization, or a non-profit.

What about special events? This is what I'm thinking this would be used for.

Special events, not daily hours.

Right, not daily hours. Or menus.

Well, Nightingale puts out that type of temporary sign when they're going to have music in the evening.

Right.

I'm not, I would not be opposed to that. I would not either. Yeah. Well, what do they use? Is it an A-frame?

I think so, yeah.

I mean, it's not very big. If we specify it so it's not too cheesy and then they could, they could, for example, the library does have, it's a recurring event, their book, So they could take it down and reuse the same sign. Just a way of thinking, addressing your point that what options are we leaving them with?

That's right. Well, do we want to hold this up again and somebody try to pin down what would be an appropriate sign or do we want to hold off until we have a discussion with these various organizations?

I think this is good written now because Because we need to act. In other words, who knows when they're going to ask us to have this meeting. So we need to act. But we leave it that we are happy to work collaboratively with the business nonprofits to find other appropriate temporary signage. This document can change once that were to happen. But it seems to me, to your point, Carolyn, that This is good as written. And I do think the sandwich board sign, if we met with them and worked through an appropriate solution, that would actually be an opportunity to offer something that could be added to the list, so to speak.

I actually have a question about that. Do we really want it to come from them as I try to get to wrangle cats? I mean, how many would come? Maybe only two, maybe three.

They offered it. We're not coordinating. They have a monthly meeting and they said one of their monthly meetings, it's all the organizations get together.

I'm not sure it's monthly.

Maybe it's not monthly, but they would invite us to that. And we're not coordinating that.

I see. I see. I didn't understand that.

Yeah.

Okay. But I still wonder if it might not be appropriate for us to decide what we would like the temporary A-frame sign to look like. And then if they have changes to recommend for that.

Sure, we could propose that at the meeting.

Then it would be more in our, you know, we would at least have at least set the parameters for what we would present, right?

Yeah. Oh, I agree. It's a negotiation or discussion with them.

I mean, I'm just recommending, not that they can't request it to be modified, but if we tell them what we think would be the... Would be appropriate, yeah.

I mean, the reality is, as things stand now, folks have events, they put up something. I'd rather have them operating within guidelines. Now, Audubon, several months ago, put up this large banner strung between trees. Do we want to consider banners or allow banners?

When they go to the expense of creating that large banner, And you tell them you can't use it. It won't be too popular.

I know, but how is that different from somebody else starting a project that they have, you know, building something and they haven't come to us?

I agree, but, you know, human nature.

Yes. Well, the question is, is this okay for now? I think so. This paragraph here. Or do you want to just...

I recommend inserting a sentence if we can easily come up with it now so that it's at least part of the discussion rather than waiting. And we say we're going to make changes periodically, but if we publish this and that stipulation or recommendation or guideline for portable A-frame signs is not in it, will people... I don't know. I'm just throwing that out. Would one more sentence hold us up? And is Is there an advantage to not including it now that I'm not seeing? Maybe there is. Other than our wish to get this done, is there another advantage to not including it now?

Well, the other advantage is, I'm just thinking we need to be careful not only with the size of the sign, but specifying the types of things that can go on it. I don't want to say, oh, A-flat frames are available, and then you start going up and down the street and All these businesses say, special sale today. And I'm not sure if it's a regular sign. I mean, there are plenty of businesses that all the time have special sale today signs out.

It's unlikely on Lime Street. Yeah. I mean, for example, the Cooley Gallery never, in my memory, when they have an opening or whatever, I don't think they use signage. Not everybody is going to want to partake in this, but if there is an A-frame sign that we could find an image of, describe briefly, and as we've done with the realtor signs, say no larger than this or that, no photographs, no whatever. so that it just has maybe text. I don't have a solution, but I'm suggesting a framework. And I'm happy to wait if it's better to wait.

I mean, unless we're drafting language today, if everyone wants to sign off on the language, we're waiting two months.

Two.

So, i i think we i think we vote on this today and i think we take the time to figure out what the a-frame sign would look like i suggest that if we were to be asked to a meeting that would be a sign that we would propose uh to them and discuss it and say here's here's our suggested design that we think we would accept How does this look to you guys? And they may say, well, if we could do this, then that might change what we would ultimately add to this.

How about in the last sentence saying the HTC is happy to work collaboratively with et cetera, et cetera, to identify, insert the word other before appropriate types of signs. Yes. And then come at the end, including or potentially including appropriate A-frame signs. The goal of this is to get them to come in so that we talk to them about duration and where it's going to go and the size and whatever. if we're single in general, that it could include an A-frame sign. That doesn't, if we put in the word potentially, then we're not allowed.

I think we're speaking the way it is, Joan. I like the pavement sign.

I like the pavement sign.

Rather than saying A-frame, because that makes me think I'm going to go to Staples and get a plastic one.

Right. I like the word other to identify other appropriate types of temporary signs. I like that ad.

Yeah, I do too.

Let's just leave it. And leave it at that. And then, and there may be another type that we come up with between now and. Two.

We can all be sort of watching in other towns and other communities.

And we've, and we've opened the, we've had the invitation. They said they would invite us. We're leaving the door open with a statement. Good. So, yeah.

Okay. I think we shouldn't, at the meeting, maybe not say, here's what we suggest. What do you guys think? Because maybe you guys won't think that our suggestions are good. So I wouldn't say it that way.

Right.

We could accept this or this, but we could not accept that or that. It's something we could wait.

Well, whatever is discussed at that meeting would still need approval by the commission.

Yes.

Right. In other words, that is a discussion time. That's not a, we're not giving formal approval for anything at that meeting.

But once we say yes, Yeah, okay, good. You understand. I think adding the word other is great.

Okay. The next thing is on the next page towards the bottom under number eight. I had something scribbled in my notes that we discussed a possible additional restriction on the number of signs on one property. I'm not exactly sure what that restriction would be. think Carolyn made the point. But the more I thought about it, I thought the first bullet point covered that.

I would prefer to see our recommendation or our guideline or something that more than two signs for commercial property I think is too much, don't you?

Doesn't zoning have a Does zoning have a limit on the number of signs on a property?

I think they do. We discussed that the flow grids has the small sign and the big sign, so that makes two, so that's it? No more signs?

Well, the thing is, think of the museum. Now, they already have two signs out front.

Mm-hmm.

You go inside the driveway, they may, you know, want to have a sign that says parking this way or whatever.

It's hard to limit in advance to two signs.

I mean, what are you saying to the museum? You can't put up a parking this way sign or, you know, us. interior wayfaring sign that says development office whatever there's a large parcel too sign per acre something like um

and I think we can just leave it do you think so because otherwise we're going to say you know depending on the property size and which it is but then you don't want to get into that well three signs on a small parcel like where Nightingale's is is very different than three signs exactly the scale the scale right I mean that's

These are not meant to be, this is my mental distinction from a regulation. A regulation is officially adopted by the town and it sets rules and strict limits. These are guidelines. It doesn't mean even what's written here that we could decide to vary from these. But there's gotta be room for, in my view, maneuver in the joints and then, you know, to avoid excessive clutter, I think is fine. Okay.

And your point about scale, I mean, it's just like a, it's like a building. Like you wouldn't allow the size of the building that you see at the flow grid is on one of the lines that you see here. So it's the same thing. And that's the judgment that we make when we look at the scale of a structure.

Is there a way that just last thought is there a way to include because I think it's it's point is a good one scale in the in that first sentence.

In proportion.

Yes, sorry consider the number of signs on a parcel. With. attention to the scale.

That's not relative to lot size, proportional to lot size.

I don't know, maybe just leave it out.

I know. I just want to think about it. Then it gets into too much.

Let's leave it out.

It's our judgment in the meeting. Okay.

Okay.

And then the last thing was, we now have

It really was the first option on the June memo about realtor and building contractor signs. Yes, Deb, talk about why.

This was an interesting thing. I have to find the pictures that I sent to you. Okay, so this was June 21st. So this was in Lime, and it's a small... Sotheby's sign that I said, Oh, that would be really something really good. It has, you know, the realtors information. It has some branding and it's name and phone number, right? Actually it just says Sotheby's, but for sale, but I don't know whether, yeah, it doesn't have, doesn't have her name on it. And I haven't gone by there to see if the sign has been changed, but, it's 12 by 12. I don't know if I put down how many inches off the ground, but it was 12 by 12. So, I mean, they can do something like this.

Right. You know, in something like that, the Sotheby name and logo is recognizable. So you can just drive by, get a glance and you know what it is. Right. Exactly. But it, If it was something unfamiliar to us, that size may be a little small for a drive-by.

What a walk. Yeah. I mean, this is like a $4 million house. So, and I mean, it's got this big, long driveway. Like I said, my husband goes up there every day. I don't go up there every day to see if it has been changed. I don't know if this was just a temporary, but just to say that they do have something like this. So, I mean, I think this would be so useful for the district rather than the big signs. And then there was two agents that I spoke to at different brokerages that were all on board with getting rid of the big sign that has name, phone number, the branding and all of that.

It's also true if somebody is driving down Lyme Street and they see a house they might want to look at. They could just pull over and say, oh.

And John, a lot of times they have a QR code. I was going to say a QR code on it, yeah. Or else people will be like, oh, it's 52. Let's Google 52 Lime Street. And we do it all the time driving around. We want to see the price of something. So it's not unheard of to give them regulations, I don't think, at all. I mean, I think that's probably easier than all the nonprofits.

Right.

Well, procedurally with with realtor signs is the next step to have invite realtors in to talk to us about proposed regulations.

And that sign, for example, it could have it could be I mean, let's say we made it 14 by 14 and. It could have just the phone number, not the name, but just the phone number, which would connect you with the agent. You don't really need to know the agent's name when you drive by.

Right, and that's the ones I told John that are at Grattan Long Point. They don't allow any branding signs. So the realtors have to make up their own sign that says, call broker and their phone number. That's it.

Is that considered a branding sign, the one you showed us? From Lyme? Well, I think because it has Sotheby's.

Right. Well, so let me ask the question. To the realtor, is it going to be most important that it's the brand, Sotheby's, the name? Obviously, how to get in contact, either QR code or phone number versus name.

I think their number.

The number is the most important, right?

I think so.

And do you think that they could either put the brand? or the name?

They would have to make them.

If it fits.

Can we save this for when we're talking with the realtors? I mean, that would be a sense of their level of comfort or discomfort.

Yes, but that's the question in my mind. And if it fits, clearly most of that does fit in a 12 by 12, so 12 by 12, 14 by 14, that's kind of a reasonable range. So I would be all in favor.

I love the idea. And if the realtors like it also, it seems like it's a win-win for everyone.

Yeah. Well, if we want to do that, Deb, could you invite people to the September meeting and, or would you rather do it in October? I think in October, would you be okay with October? Absolutely. I mean, if we're okay with everything else and including the line saying that we're in the process of developing guidance for realtor signs, I'd like to get something posted that there are clarifications in here that on many, many of the little issues that were not in the version, the original version of our guidelines that I'd like to get

I agree. I think we've, you know, I think it's wonderful that we've had the chance to talk about a few additional options and that we've still come back to this language that you've provided us, John. And it was a very useful discussion, but I think we're ready to go ahead and get this posted. I'm ready to go ahead and get this posted.

And do we want to take a vote, make a motion and take a vote? Should be, too.

We have the advice guidelines. Let's do that. I mean, I've got notes about the changes, the few changes we made today.

So do I have a motion to adopt the Old Lyman Story District design review guidelines for signs? The revisions to? The revisions. The revised. The draft dated July 3rd?

Yes.

So We have a motion. Do we have a second? Any more discussion? All in favor? Say aye. Aye. There you go.

With huge thanks to John. Yeah, John, thank you. It's been a nightmare for you.

It's so important.

Thank you.

All right.

Now, demolition.

John, do you want to start?

Yeah, just to highlight what this is. Part B, which goes on for three and a half pages, four pages total, is a very rough draft of guidelines.

The

What I'd like to focus on specifically today, and we can get into the wording of the guidelines if you like, but is to decide what we want to propose. Do we just want to propose guidelines? That leaves us with this binding language from our governing statute, which is there's just a 90-day delay is all that's possible. Or do we want, in addition to the guidelines, to propose an ordinance? If we want an ordinance, and these are the options in part C, I see three choices. One is just to focus on demolition or demolition and moving properties. The second is to propose a Historic Properties Commission. I'm kind of down on that. Think HTC, but just applicable to spot historical properties. And the third is this Historic Preservation Commission Ordinance, which it comes under very general language in the state statutes, not the specific statute that sets out HDCs and historic properties commissions. You know, it can be massaged to fit our particular needs. I did, when I talked to Eric Knapp, ask if we came up with an ordinance, how should we proceed? He said, well, you may want to go to planning just to get their input, but the proposal would have to go to the Board of Select. And I'm not, I'm comfortable drafting guidelines, but to draft something that would be legally binding, I think I should keep my hands off, especially because I don't know the details of local land use loans. I know more than I thought I would. So, presumably, if the Board of Selectmen think it's a good idea, then the town attorney would get involved in drafting an ordinance. We should, the Preservation Connecticut's draft model ordinance has some ideas in it that we may want particularly to highlight if we'd like the idea of an ordinance. That Historic Preservation Commission, which has educational functions as well, would obviously go beyond just a demolition ordinance, which is what the demolition ordinance is all that the POCD calls for. But to the best of my knowledge, no one's proposed a demolition ordinance formally.

So the number one, just to understand, number one is a town-wide demolition ordinance? Yes. That we would be proposing that would have to be approved by the select committee, right? Correct. Any ordinance would have to be approved by the select committee. And then the two and three, the differentiation, is that instead of the HDC proposing the ordinance, we would be... No, no.

The HDC could propose the ordinance, would have to in both cases, in any of the cases, two or three, the difference is in the type of ordinance it would be. I see. The second type, historic properties is set out in statute and it's a statute that very closely parallels the HDC statute so any alteration to a historic property you've got to come in with something that has more state that's a state law so it has more state backing so is three right number one does not that would be just a town or just The other political advantage to proposing a historic preservation ordinance is it more closely relates to what we're about. I mean, a demolition ordinance presumably would be to take down any structure anywhere in town. And why is the historic?

That doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah.

The guidelines would apply just to any demolition or removal of a property in the historic district. And the goal there is, in this draft, to suggest the factors we would consider and also signal that this is a serious enterprise and you really have to do your homework if you're thinking about demolishing a structure in the district.

I'm trying to understand the nuance between two and three in a little more detail.

Think of the HDC except applicable to historic properties anywhere in town.

Same thing.

Same levels of control. I don't think it has in there about advertising signs, but If you want to make any changes, any building, any fence, any air conditioner, any outbuilding, any signpost, any stone wall, you come to the Historic Preservation Properties Commission. Right. And you have to seek a C of A. And it says especially that the members of the Historic Properties Commission may be the same members as are on the HDC. So it doesn't have to be.

And who defines properties being a historic property? Is that a state definition? Or is that something that the commission would decide?

I believe that the regulation provides just as for the HDC, the ordinance specifies the boundaries. This one designates specific properties.

If you go on the website where you can see the different federal, state, or local regulations, historic. There's a definition of that. I think that's state-provided.

Well, but I'm not sure that suppose, as with the Peck Tavern, we don't want to be in the historic district and there's a big hue and cry. I'm not sure that this local ordinance requires you to include everything that's on the state historic properties list. it designates certain properties that are subject to its control.

In other words, if the Peck Tavern, as an example, a random example, if that were on the list, the state list, then this commission, number two, would have jurisdiction over it.

No. That's not my understanding. My understanding is that would be the pool from which you probably would draw But it is up to the town to designate specific properties. Oh, the town has to then do it. Yes. Just like the town designates the specific boundaries of its history.

Oh, I see. I see. But the way... the way the town designates this district is by vote of everybody in town. So if it's a particular property, then the person that owns that property would have to vote. I mean, how does that work?

Well, I think you probably get into politics, as my understanding happened with the Peck Tavern in the historic district. They put up a the then owners put up a hue and cry and didn't want to be in the historic district. And so the boundary stopped short of there.

Right. Really?

Well, I don't know who the owners were, but I'm sure there had to have been discussion about including the Peck Tavern, which is in the historic district.

So let's take another case. Like we were looking at the property at the end of the point there. I mean, that would have to be even though it's a national register it's a state registered you're saying that the town would have to designate that as a historic property for this commission could you google chapter 97 a connecticut general statutes because i don't want to

This is what I'm thinking, but... It's okay. You don't have to answer right now. No, no, but there is an answer. Chapter 97A, Connecticut General Statutes.

While she's doing that quick question, what's called the Huntley Brown House at Plogris, does that fall within 300? Is that in the historic district? It would be close. It's right behind the Lime Art Association. Right. I think it's outside. They're talking about moving it, demolishing it.

Well, that would be, that's where you need this to be able to address something like that. But the question is, is how do you gain jurisdiction to be able to do that? And it sounds like the town has to apply that jurisdiction.

But I can see that coming up. It's not going to come up right away because it's not any plans. Right.

Right.

If those plans go forward to the next. Sure. Right. Right.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's because the district runs along the creek.

District runs only to the creek, but not beyond it. Right.

So you know how we got on forums try all we had to update their map and I know. Thank you.

Okay okay. So.

If you were a property owner outside of the district and you had an antique house and the town came along and said, we want to designate this as a historic property.

Yeah.

And now you're under watch. Oh. If you say no, I don't want the designation. Well, that's my question. Because if I wanted all that oversight, I'd move to the historic district. Exactly.

Okay, so... When the historic district was set up, there was a huge, lengthy study. You have to propose a formal study. By law. What it says is the Historic Properties Study Commission shall investigate and submit a report which includes an analysis of the historic significance and architectural merit of the building structures, objects, or sites proposed as historic properties. So they have to get into the study and then there's an approval of the study and there could be changes made in the study before the final ordinances so I think you're right Russ the study would start with here's what the state has designated but it doesn't have I see nothing in here that says it has to automatically accept that list or that

I have seen a list. I can't tell you where. Maybe I think I might know where. But I have seen a list of all buildings in the town of Old Lyme that were constructed before such and such a date. So, you know, before. So we could at least consult that as the beginning of a consideration.

There has to be, if it works like how this commission started, there has to be a commission formed, and maybe that's what this is, that does the study, the study's done, and then the town has to approve the study. And then at that point, the commission is then formed, right? So the study commission was not the first HDC commission. There was a study commission formed- Separate. Separate, right. And it sounds like to me, I just remember that the approval of the HDC had a vote of all the property owners in the HDC. So it seems to me this commission, you would have to have a similar kind of vote. I don't know.

Well, the... Could it be like

one-off agreements all over town. That's what I'm wondering.

It also includes provision for owners of a proposed historic property may object to the proposed designation and then you've got to, it's not automatic, then you've got different options. You vote on the objection and you either accept it or you reject it or you return it to the committee with requests to reconsider it. I think a lot would reject it. I think a lot would reject it. Yeah, I do too. But other towns must have done this.

My understanding is it's a... Yeah, so we could see what other towns had done.

Yeah.

You have to have approval of

Do you think in general? I think you have to have approval for the historic district. You had to have approval of the people in the district. But it is a town ordinance to establish this. So then you get a townwide vote.

So that's that. It's a long process. It's a long process.

How many properties are there, do you think? I'm going to try to find that for our next discussion.

And is this something that the, I guess the HDC would be the natural commission to start the study, but the study might be by others too.

No, the town would, the Board of Selectmen would have to prove the creation of a belief. Right, I think you're right. So, and then this last one, again, I think the best way to get a sense of what it might or could look like is to look at the model ordinance that Preservation Connecticut adopted.

Good idea.

But I've outlined the three goals

Or three general. Types of things.

That ordinance. Well see that one. So basically. This one says. If it's on the list. Then we have a town ordinance.

So this one doesn't. This one says. You got an ordinance. Dealing with every property. That's on the state or federal. Register.

I think. three is, it's a simpler process.

Well, how much time do you want to spend on this today?

Well, this is all for now, but I think it's good to understand these, to your point, it's, we need to think about what these three, I mean, one doesn't make sense to me because it's not a historic it's so town wide it's every building two seems to me I'm just summarizing two seems to me that that's equivalent to starting a new historic district in my mind three is there's a list of properties that the state and the national register have already identified maybe the town needs an ordinance to help protect those and promote

closer coordination with other commissions and to elevate the profile of this issue in the town and provide education about these properties.

So on the third one, homeowners could reject that too.

I don't know that that's the case.

Because I think people would be concerned being labeled an antique house or what have you of insurance concerns. Also, I think it's kind of opening people up to other scrutiny.

We need to review the ordinance that John is at the very bottom. Is that... Yes, that's linked to that ordinance. I think we should all review that language.

Or are you nervous?

At the very bottom of the last page. At the very bottom.

I was just reading...

Well, there's a website link to the actual model ordinance, and maybe that's a good homework assignment.

Good.

To your point, Deb, because then it will tell us what it might impose or support for a homeowner.

Well, could I suggest then for the next meeting that people spend time with the proposed guidelines and mark them up and hopefully we can arrive at a set of guidelines that does not take us a year and a half to bring to fruition but it is just a start and then everybody look at this draft ordinance and I think this is obviously just a very cryptic study but if you glance through the ordinance you'll get an idea of what it could be. And there's a lot of language in there, my recollection, that wouldn't fit because some of it applies to cities. You might look through it and just say, this really would be important for old line. And I don't know what to say about Deb's point, except it's a point of future discussion. It does seem to me that it would be nice to have something in place that could be invoked when we have another situation like we had at Grizzle Point. You can't just willy-nilly go changing.

Well, three would have spoken to that.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah, three would have.

I think if it was narrowly worded to be just demolition, it might be more palatable than any other kind of overreach. Yeah.

Maybe demolition or moving. Yeah. Yeah. But not alteration. Right. Demolition.

Alterations and alterations. Right. But if somebody lives outside of the district for an antique house, chances are they've already done renovations. So then what's left?

Well, I mean, there are historic houses right now on the market. And so a new buyer is, Or let's say the Wade House, you know, that beautiful house on Silling. Across the bridge on the right.

Yep, that's pending. It's not the Wade. Meaning House Hill, like Johnny Cake Hill that's pink. Have you seen that one?

Is that the Smith House, the old Smith House? I think it might be. It's a very old house.

Yes. But I just happened to run into the owner of that who's new to town. And she said basically nothing had been done to it. And she's put in central air and insulation.

Is it still rented, that house?

It's sold.

It's sold. There's a house on Mile Creek where the town just went after some blood. Oh, I saw that. It looks like there's a small antique house on that property.

We're on Mile Creek?

Before you get to the school, it's on the left.

Okay.

The town decided it was kind of blighted, but they didn't have a blight ordinance, so they came up with something else.

It's on the last Connecticut examiner issue.

Yes. Is the house that's facing the road, is that an antiques? It looks like a small cake, but I don't know what it's a repo.

Well, there are quite a few houses or structures listed in the register and the National and State Register that are in O'Connor that would fall under this list. I remember perusing that at some point in the little map, and there's several structures that would fall under item three. have to be careful of the the term renovate relative to demolition i remember in another state scene where people would tear everything down except for the fireplace and then that's still a renovation good right so yeah right well this was very right um yeah i have a few new and i have a few A few points. On demolition? Oh, new and ongoing business. Yeah.

Okay. Y'all got my email about Martha's plan to consult an attorney. I suggested that Russ or I would be willing to sit in. I've heard nothing further from her um forgive me but i'm well this this is i mean it would be useful i think if if one of us could but if whatever feedback there is i i suggest we wait um the the broader point is um to be thinking about is whether after this military markers issue has blown over, I mean, we'll either have a marker or we won't on the Veterans Memorial, it could be useful to offer to, for as many people on the commission as possible, come to a Board of Selectmen meeting and just have a conversation. I looked at the meeting link, the last Board of Selectmen meeting link, where this was, the military markers issue was discussed towards the end. And I thought there were several statements that demonstrated a lack of full understanding of how the Commission operated and what its what its goals were. So I don't know what you all think about that. We, we don't have to decide now, obviously, but in September we could say, you know, be thinking about do we want to propose that kind of a session.

Let's see what the response is. And, and based on that, make a decision. My recommendation.

Yeah, that's, that's fine. But I, I don't, I guess what I'm envisioning is something that would be future-oriented and not dwell on this particular issue.

I think it would be wonderful not to have a lot of unresolved ideas about the HTC on a case when something comes up. We want to have that clearly established with the Board of Selectmen and it can be a discussion of maybe we would even, would we want a town council there or not? Well, it depends on the outcome.

I think that depends on what kind of response. If we get a written response to all the questions that were asked from town council, that's great. If we get a response that's more general and, you know, Martha says, well, this is okay and that's not okay, then we may want to seek some more specific guidance.

Yes.

I'm hoping town council will provide clarity. Yes. Because it's, as I told John, I don't think it's our, I think council has to define how we operate under the law. We're here to act according to the law as defined by legal. Again, John's very knowledgeable of the law, but he's not the attorney.

And I'm not knowledgeable particularly about the type of law.

Right. So we always try to follow the counsel's interpretation of the statutes. And once we hear that, to me, then we'll follow under those guidelines.

Here's an example. I disagreed in email gently with Russ because I think inevitably we do interpret the law. We don't get counsel's opinion for everything. We had particular questions about the boundaries of the district and about signage that we went to and got an opinion from counsel on six years ago. But that said, we can read the plain language and say, if you are altering a structure, a C of A is required, and we read the definition of structure, and we read the definition of alter, and we read the definition of exterior architectural feature, and we say, this seems pretty clear on a plain reading. Russ is right in that there may be court opinions. There are places where the apparent literal meaning of a statutory provision is altered or modified, and we don't have any way of finding those out in an authoritative manner. short of a legal opinion. On the other hand, we don't have a budget to just go ask every single little question. Is this plain, apparently plain reading right or not? I think probably in most situations, the attorney would say, yeah, you can read, I can read, that's what it says. But there are issues where the the interpretation may be contested and, you know, the law comes down one side or the other.

I think that's very important, John. I think very well said. So if there's an opportunity to, you know, maybe put that in the record or express that if you have a chance to meet with the attorney together with the select persons, that would be great. Yeah, I think it's very well stated.

zoning regulations, revisions. Russ or I can notify you about these upcoming meetings. I don't know. It could be that based on Greg's comment, there are issues relating to the new state housing law that potentially might impact the historic district, particularly Halls Road. And if somebody was willing to go to that meeting, that may be important as well as the one later in the fall about commercial properties. And my last point was, Julie's not here.

She's, I think,

concerned that website information gets posted. We hope that the town intern would be able to help with that language. She wasn't able to help. So what I'd like to suggest is that Carolyn and Julie, who were working on the language and have a lot of new language that's an improvement on what we have, send it what you have ready to Russ and Martha and me, and we'll look through it. And maybe even without a full commission meeting and review of the exact text, we can post some clarifications. I mean, it'd be nice to, again, this has been a while, but there's things that aren't very clear right now.

Absolutely right, yes. So is that a good one? So I'm afraid that I've a bit lost track if we have the most recent version, because I've looked at it many different times. I'm not sure what the most recent one is. If anybody has a copy of that, that would be helpful.

Julie probably does, right? Could you give us that space to do the Julie first? Otherwise, I'll go dig back.

Okay, wonderful.

Anything else? Any other new and ongoing business? Motion to adjourn. Motion to adjourn. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Thank you.