Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Are those folks on? Yes. Okay, let's call the meeting to order. Russ has unfortunately had to leave, so you're up, I guess. Or is it Curly's turn?

I think it's Curly's turn. Curly, you're

uh, a voting member for today because Russ cannot be here. He's muted. Is that us or is that her?

That's her.

Well, I don't have a text for her, but I can email her.

Yeah.

Why don't you email her? Um, So approval of the May 4th regular meeting minutes. Is there a motion to approve those?

I'll make one comment. I don't think when we discussed the markers, I don't think that Tim's name was listed as in attendance.

Tim Griswold. Oh, okay. To add that name. With that,

Technical correction is there on the 11th, not the 4th. That's especially sorry.

Yes, that was especially special meeting. Yeah, we haven't gone to that yet, but for the regular meeting minutes. Is there a second second?

Discussion. All in favor.

I'm abstaining. I wasn't there.

One abstention.

So the motion carries. And then is there a motion to approve the special minutes with the correction that we add Tim's name?

So moved.

Second. Further discussion? All in favor? Aye. One of the items I was going to say a few words about is the recent news concerning Amtrak's study, but I see that Greg Stroud is here and we would appreciate it as part of the public comment section if you could give us a brief update.

Why don't you come sit at the table and then you're in the picture. And first I want our new old line reporter, Charlotte Harvey. Oh, welcome. She just graduated from UConn. I think she's fabulous. And we'll be covering this area as well as Old State Road. Okay. So this is her first day. So she will be on this story in the future. So as you might be aware, we've published a new story. Last week, I believe, on high-speed rail, it came to our attention that Amtrak had reached out to state reps and indirectly town officials in Rhode Island, where they've been trying to, there's a lot of pressure to keep in the loop, and particularly Charlestown, Rhode Island, which arguably was the second most, would be the second most impacted plan by the old by the previous plan, right, this New Haven, this Kenyon to Old Saybrook bypass. So they finally, this has been the planning, again, for this how to connect New Haven and Providence. That planning has been delayed for a while. It's been approved, but just sort of sitting there to get funding. This administration, no one was ever quite sure where it would land on high-speed rail. The current administration in Washington has approved and they've moved forward with the funding for this study that's called the New Haven to Providence Capacity Planning Study. It was called for in the Record of Decision in 2017 that they had to have this study to resolve how to meet metrics for those same metrics that the previous solution, the previous bypass was the solution that met these metrics. So they took that off the table and they said, you guys do it, you know, smarty pants. And so those metrics are still in place, but the solution isn't. And this plan will decide that solution. And they will have public outreach, pop-up meetings, whatever, charrettes, this summer. We should expect those in this area. I haven't talked to Devin Kearney, whether they've contacted him. Amtrak should have. And one of the interesting things for us is that we don't work too much on both sides of the border, but and, but I have lots of contacts in Rhode Island that reach out to me every time anything happens. And so, so this, in fact, they, they gave us these documents. So we'll see how they play out on both sides of the border. And, and frankly, for this town, um, you know, playing off both sides of the border is probably to the advantage of, you know, you're treating them better. No, you're treating us better. You know, that is probably helps you guys. Um, But anyhow, the question would be whether the metrics presuppose the solution. So is there another solution that can meet the goals of capacity, time and capacity? And the rules of the record decision says that any solution cannot be purely on the existing corridor. There was a market study that was completed two years ago. And the market study is to provide the cost benefit analysis for any planning. And that market study basically said the route will have to go down here. Didn't quite settle it, but it pretty much settled it to say that the route isn't going to be up in Hartford. It's not going to be up anywhere north. So it would have to be. If it can't be on the existing corridor, it has to be down here. Probably some version of cost savings with the bypass along the existing corridor. Now, could it be adjusted a little bit this way, a little bit this way? And that's what was interesting last time was that all the towns basically got together and agreed on both sides of the border. There's unanimity there. And so the question this time will be whether the town say, whether Rhode Island says, you know, most of those curves are really over in Connecticut. And then Connecticut says, you know, last time, I can't say who, but last time a chief of staff of a significant politician said basically, didn't say basically, said quote unquote, we've rolled them, referring to Rhode Island. So there's definitely this pushed back and forth. So I think the word I used was crowed, that Connecticut had rolled Rhode Island. And whether they'd roll Rhode Island again is a big question. And part of the reason they rolled Rhode Island last time was because the governor of Rhode Island turned against their own plan. So, Gina Raimondo. So anyhow, Questions or thoughts?

I felt like a lot of what I read, they were just saying, oh, we're going to take comment. We're going to consider. Is that just lip service, do you think? Or are they really trying to, will they really consider what the small towns have to say?

You know, this, I think, I'm not sure. Probably these meetings aren't part of formal public comment. So it's more, so you could say that, you know, this is more of a public to say we've done the right things. It's to tell courts in the future, anyone else that we've done. So this would certainly be, I guess, a goodwill gesture. But, you know, last time, the reason that people listened was because old line had more public comment than New York, Boston, Philadelphia combined. the town of Atlanta. So that made people pay attention. So whether people come out or care or what they have to say.

I have a few questions. Why was Rhode Island getting this information? And we, for example, did not, except through your Rhode Island contacts.

I guess that's not for me to ask, but what I would say is that there is a close connection between the local government in Charlestown, Rhode Island, and some top Amtrak officials. It's just a personal connection, and that probably helped.

Okay.

On the public opposition front, as you know, and you were a major part of it, there was in this town a huge outcry. Who says there can't be bipartisan agreement on some political issue? Well, we had it here, and I think it's fair to say pretty much along the coastline. Absolutely. I'm guessing I know the answer to this, but if there is to be an effort to be made to organize people, inform people, that should start when? Now?

Or wait for the, you know, to see what they think I think that they have to, I think, from my perspective, is that they will be shortly announcing public meeting venues. Previously, I think we know that Rhode Island actually had a public question and answer where the public could go and ask, you know, top people at Amtrak, not the FRA, but Amtrak showed up and they answered questions and asked questions. That never was the case in Old Lyme. Old Lyme had a public meeting, but didn't have an ability to ask questions. And that was a matter of negotiation. So where some of the meetings were held previously were in towns like Springfield, Massachusetts, And so they sometimes were, the meetings were away from the impacts or they were in areas that were more favorable. So probably asking for a meeting in, you know, old line or a meeting in new London someplace close would be that's, this is the time to arrange that. And certainly I think Martha would be, you know, a big part of, of getting that done so that they will, will agree to it. And, and I, you know, the, is it supposedly the definition of insanity? What is it doing the same thing? So will, so will we go down? I think some ways, I think since the last effort failed, the question is, is probably to convince people that the most pro-rail, pro-transit solution isn't the one that previously failed, which is a reasonable argument. So they're scheduling those meetings, yeah, they said shortly, right, or now. And that would be, and certainly Blumenthal's staff was already engaged and had been helpful previously.

How would you characterize Murphy's position now? He had been, if I'm correct, opposed to the previous plan. I know he's moved, but is he kind of on the fence and listening to both sides, or is he gung-ho, go Amtrak, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do?

Uh, previously, um, the, the initial letter that, uh, signed that asked for a pause, uh, to a lot to extend public comment. Um, and it, which was the outcry, you know, just because I think the town really only had a big outcry about four days before public comment was to close last time. It was, it was Murphy and Blumenthal co-signed that letter. Um, and in this case, um, Murphy is interesting in that he is a leading voice in getting things done. And that means there's a bipartisan interest in streamlining federal environmental law, and particularly NEPA law, which is what this fell under. And so he has certainly been one of the leading voices in the Senate towards streamlining procedures to get big infrastructure projects done. So I wouldn't put words in his mouth about this project, but he certainly has been very favorable towards getting something done and has spoken. I think we have some stories about comments and things that he's made in New London about the need the need for disruption to accept the fact that there'll be disruption, whatever that means. So, yeah. So I, and, you know, certainly Blumenthal's office has probably been the most favorable for a town like Old Lyme for what it's worth. But I don't, you know, I have no idea where they would fall, where Courtney and Blumenthal and Murphy would fall on this.

Some of the opposition could be grounded and was last time in the federal law that required these infrastructure projects to take account of their impact on historic preservation buildings historically preserved buildings. And so are there, you know, one way around that, if the administration is keen on this getting done is to change the law or change the regulations, is there movement on that front?

Um, in fact, in fact, that has happened and it's really interesting, um, how it plays out is, um, there was, uh, uh, I think, uh, From a legal perspective, we previously had the Chevron decision, which basically what we did is we allowed federal bureaucracies to fill in the silent places, if you will, in the law and to write regulations. And the Supreme Court basically sided pretty strongly against the ability of bureaucracies to create significant regulatory frameworks that hadn't been set out by Congress. And that has had a bigger effect in environmental law than probably almost any other place. Connecticut Fund for Environment, Roger Reynolds is probably would be the leading expert in the state on that issue and would probably be a helpful voice. But what that means is that uh, basic there there's, um, right now there's the idea of, uh, regulation. So you could probably help me on, on this when state agencies and federal agencies, they get together and they have a, they actually have a, an agreement. They sign agreement that they'll all work together. Um, that whole procedure is now in flux. Um, And so, yeah, I would say that NEPA laws influx and how that plays out is it's not nearly as favorable of an environment now, both politically and legally than it was in 2016, 2017. It's really, it's an interesting, it's an, I was talking to the head of the Historic Preservation New York a few weeks ago about this issue. and particularly about building the pipeline potentially across the border, the gas pipeline, which interestingly is the Trump administration and the current administration in Hartford both kind of agree that should happen and that needs this rolling back Chevron will help that happen.

If my memory serves, the last time this issue came up and was pushed aside temporarily, as it turns out, there had been talk about redirecting the rail line across the river. Is that my memory correct? There was at least discussion of possible tunneling. So in the previous... Let me just state my question so you'll know what I'm trying to get at. Does the renovations of the current bridge suggest any difficulties in your mind with a possible rerouting of track?

The planning for the bridge was consonant with the previous bypass. They're designed to fit together. It has no effect whatsoever. If anything, it confirms that there's a significant curve right after the bridge, which isn't good for high-speed rail. So in the previous case, a tunnel had been suggested. And the problem with that suggestion was a Tier 1 NEPA review only picks the root. It doesn't pick the solutions. So if they offered you solutions, none of them were binding. They'll offer you whatever you want. It could give you a spaceship between point A and point B as long as it fell on the root. So it was merely choosing the route. They have not chosen the route now. We're the only area in the Northeast Corridor without a route, which is amazing. You know, just literally that dotted line around this earth. So, yeah, it'll be. But this one, what I will note, what I think your, when we've done freedom of information requests, the letters from HTC and old lines, were clearly bouncing around the federal bureaucracy and were taken note of. And there was no one else comparable that was really asking those serious questions. So for what it's worth, I thought that contact was significant.

Well, we will no doubt be discussing what to say in this new environment. So... Yeah, it'll be interesting.

Fun. Fun.

Thank you, Greg.

Thank you for having me. Always a pleasure. I appreciate your work.

John, can you hear me now?

Oh, yes. This is Curly.

Yeah, it's Curly.

We can't see you, Curly, but that's all right.

No, that's just fine. You don't need to.

In case you didn't hear, Russ had to leave. You're a voting member today. Are there any other public comments? Yes. Oh, okay. You're waving. All right. Co-chairs reports. I have several items. Some of these were highlighted on the sheet that Martha sent around with the meeting materials. And if I can find that sheet.

It's right.

It's on the last page. I pulled it out already. Do you want to consider leaving the co-chair's report to the end so we can stick more closely to the schedule?

It's already 9.30. Let me see. We can do that. If people have to leave, I can highlight things in a summary email as well as stating them publicly. Yes. Well, you're right. That did take longer than we thought. So David and Jocelyn.

This up real quick.

Thank you for having us back again. My name is David Noe with 360 Design, and I'm here with Jocelyn Salinger, the owner of 36 Lime Street. So last week we spoke about switching her existing roof from a wood cedar roof to an asphalt roof. You guys did provide us with a couple houses that had switched over. I believe number six Lime Street, which is here, and number 40 as well. So Jocelyn and I walked up and down the street. We kind of looked around. We looked at these homes that are also similar houses. in the proposed asphalt roof, which is the weathered wood, which we'd like to use if we could. And we also noticed that there are very few homes right now with wood siding, I'm sorry, wood roofing. So we'd like to kind of continue the discussion and get your feedback and see what the possibilities would be to switch over to an asphalt roof. We also brought in a couple other options and a book of, a book of roofing materials, too, if we wanted to talk about colors that would be more palatable. But our feeling was, you know, this particular weathered wood, they call it a lifetime shingle. It's probably a 30- to 40-year shingle. So it has longevity. This roof was actually done 11 years ago, and is already cupping, and Jocelyn's been picking up shakes off the ground You can see it's very degraded at this point. This tree is getting trimmed back.

So we had information from a couple people that it is slated to be removed entirely.

No, that was just an option I was looking to see. I know I needed to get it trimmed. So I just said, well, what if I wanted to take the whole thing down? And I don't want to take the whole thing down. I do want to trim it, though. I have to trim it.

Yeah, currently these are sitting on the roof, some of the branches are sitting on the roof right now.

Other than occasional finding a shingle or something, how is a 11 year old cedar roof failing?

Well, you can see it's seriously cupping. I actually don't have pictures of the other side.

The other side is flashing. That was issues or something. It seemed like the copper.

I mean, this is just an open field of roofing. So it's not a flashing issue. There is leaking as well, correct? There's leaking as well. But you can see on the other side, this is the east side and the west side. As the sun is setting, it gets even more sun. Those are severely topped in breaking. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I'm not sure why it's failing. Right, and 11 is supposed to last forever, right?

They don't. No, they don't, but I've heard the figure that for 40 years, which is the same period of time that a shingle roof might be expected.

Right, right. Yeah, and it's typical. And in my research, too, I found the same. So an asphalt would be 30 to 40, and a wood should be 30 to 40 years as well.

There are, I believe, seven wood shingle roofs. this side south of I-95. I know there's some on the other side, but I don't have a count. So it is a historic feature in the historic district.

It's not really a practical one.

So is it my understanding that the 6 and 40 were changed from wood to asphalt?

Martha, do you know? I think that was before.

I know that 40 was changed, definitely, within the last 10 years. Okay. 6 Lime Street, I think, was before that.

I thought she just had that done before. Within the past couple of years.

Yeah, it was an asphalt, asphalt to asphalt. Yeah.

Which one was that, Martha, the yellow or the white? Six, the one on the corner. Okay.

And the other thing, these three also have pretty much the identical roof color. And we would be looking to do something very similar in color, if not exactly the same.

But I'm not sure what the precedents of those were.

So did Forty have a wood roof at some point in time? Yes.

Yeah, it did.

Yes, they changed from wood to asphalt.

They did, yeah.

But then when we revisited it ten years ago or five years ago or whatever, it was asphalt to asphalt.

No, that's when it was changed from wood. I can get you the actual date here.

Can I ask a question?

Sure. Go ahead, Curly.

Have you looked into the cost difference between the two and do you know what it is?

We do. So one square, which is a 10 by 10, 100 square foot area in asphalt is approximately $150 a square foot in material. And then wood, depending on if it's white cedar, red cedar, can range from 600 all the way up to 1,000 a square. And then the labor is also significantly different as well.

Right, okay. Thank you.

So you're talking, according to the builder, approximately four times the cost.

Yeah, I mean, one...

One difficult point for us is we are charged with maintaining the historical and architectural character of the district, and there's not really an exception for costs as part of our, you know, factors that we're supposed to consider. It's similar, I suspect, to... cases brought to the zoning board of appeals under trying to appeal a zoning regulation and get an exception for zoning regulations. And the standard is hardship. What's the definition of hardship? It's not economic hardship.

The thing is we do have precedent here for a very similar situation. And also, you know, we're, The roof has been failing. It doesn't, you know, it's not functioning. So, you know, we're proposing a more of a modern material. It's been around. It's been tested. I think it's in keeping with the street. It's not the only one on the road with asphalt roofs.

Did you say that you had brought in other materials to suggest?

Well, there are other materials. color variations. So this is the proposed weathered wood. This is what's called thunderstorm gray. Again, I think this is the same roof we're looking at on these three, the weathered wood. And then we do have a whole book of colors available as well. If you guys want to pass that around.

I just wondered what range you were considering.

really, you know, really pretty much this color here, as close as we can get to that wood color. I mean, there is one in there that's brown, but that's not realistic. It would stick out like a sore thumb. They call it cedar. But once those, once the wood, you know, hits the ultraviolet light and turns more to a gray. So we're trying to keep it more of that tone, that grayish tone.

That, that Those pictures on the bottom don't look gray to me.

They look almost light brown or wood color. Wood color. Like wood color.

Yeah, and I think that's this weathered wood here, which is, you know, kind of some of that warmer tones in it.

It doesn't look dark at all. It looks so much lighter.

I mean, it's unlike to them, that's true.

Yeah, because that looks black. A lot of these are very different. They're all very different. In different lights. Right.

Is there any consideration to washing the roof and repairing it as is?

I don't think that's possible. The back is so cupped and damaged at this point. The shingles are just curling up.

Is that a product perhaps of the poor quality of wood that was used?

I'm not sure what type of shingles that are available now. It's not the old cedar anymore. There is no longer to make the shingles out of that.

I understand. I mean, the newer growth is they're growing trees much quicker, um, and cutting them down much earlier. So you're not getting the same vertical grains that we used to get in, uh, like an older red cedar or even a white cedar. Um, You see it in two by fours. You know, you get a two by four from Home Depot. It looks like a hockey stick. It's not the same material that we used to get back in the 1900s. Could you remind us of the date of the original house? Yeah, it's listed as 1900, at least on the GIS maps.

Is that correct?

Yeah. The back of it's very nice. I had no idea it was like that.

Very nice.

Other questions? Other discussion?

One of my hesitations that John mentioned is the color. I know you say it's different light, but the shingle that you're preferring doesn't look to me consistent with I guess I have to go out and look on the street. Yeah. I mean, we're open.

I think we're open Jocelyn to like other colors. If you guys have a preference like out of that book. I do. I do actually think it is this one, to be honest with you, but we are open to other colors.

Do we have Martha, the color that was used on the,

The house or the reference on whichever was the most recent, 60 Lime Street?

On 40 Lime Street, which was in 2013, it says they replaced the cedar shingles with certainty architectural shingles Weathered Wood. That was the name of the color.

Is that the same company?

This is PAMCO, so it's a different company, but we would, if you guys wanted this GAF, is that correct?

Certainty.

I mean, we'd be open to using Certainty Feed as well. But yeah, they're pretty comparable, and the Weathered Woods are Each company pretty much has a weather wood color. It's kind of a staple at this point for a lot of the roofs that we do.

Further comments? Is there a motion? Well, we need to

a motion to approve it or a motion to deny it or if we're silent it gets approved anyone have any views we're obviously all hesitating not quite sure about this one yeah it's a tough one because we of course want to accommodate you and recognize the precedent on the other hand the more Houses on Lime Street change over from cedar to wood chingles to the other, then the more the town changes. So you're just hearing hesitation about that, even though we certainly respect the price difference and the practicality of it.

I understand. I live in Lime as well, and I have a lot of respect for the street, and we've done other work on the street as well. So I do understand your hesitation.

Yes. Did we suggest last time to get in touch with SHPO or some other organization for? I think we did. I don't know.

I wasn't there when they presented before. That was mentioned during the last. Did you follow up with SHPO about a grant for this? Oh, for the.

I think it's a 33% grant, right?

And it was about an option.

The Historic Home Tax Credit, it's like a 30% to sign off.

30% tax credit.

It wouldn't make up for the cost differential, but it would offset, I mean, a little bit.

We did look into that.

Yeah. It's small.

You did look into it. Okay. Yeah. Install is probably $1,000 a square installed. So you go from $1,000 down to $665.

Well, everyone's silent here.

We're not usually this quiet. Would it help if we saw the property? Because I just drive by it, and it's in such an area that I'm looking at the road rather than looking at the roof.

What's the date of this application?

Would you suggest a site visit? Would that make a difference?

Well, that's Deb's question. April 4th.

I'm a little badly delaying. The roof is leaking.

I'm sorry?

I feel like time is a little of the essence if the roof is leaking and failing.

Yeah, it was leaking prior, obviously, to our last meeting.

Does that mean we do not have time?

We don't have time under this. We have 65 days from submission, so that's up in about a week.

Well, would you like to schedule it just so that we can move forward?

Would you like to schedule a house visit within the next week so that they don't incur the, you know, approach the that exceed the 65-day deadline. And then that would give us a last chance to think about it and to look at the House in context. Let's see exactly when the 65 days would be off. We may...

We need to have another special meeting. We've got a backlog of other issues. We could do this at the front end.

We could do this one just very quickly. Squeeze it in.

Does anyone have a calendar? Count the days from April 4th.

What's the deadline? 65 days from April 4th. So that would be 60 days would be the 4th.

No, 65 days.

So it would be the 9th, 365.

I'm out of town on the 9th.

The 9th of June?

I'm out of town. A week from today? Could we meet a week from today? The 8th?

I can meet.

What time? Same time?

9 o'clock.

Does that work? Will that be with us? Yeah, it will be a public meeting. If it's okay to come and look at the roof at your place then.

Oh, I'm sorry, that's on site. So on the 8th on site?

Yes. We do 9.30. And also look at it gives us a chance to look at comparable buildings to see whether there are others with wood shingles in the near vicinity. I apologize for the hesitation, but as Carolyn explains, it's a tough issue for us. And I think it would help us to see the site.

So 9.30, do we say 9.30?

9.30, Martha? Okay. On the 8th, okay. Let's do that.

Okay.

Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks.

We'll see you guys on site, right? Okay. Is Tanya here? Yes. Hi. Good morning. Good morning.

Here we are a few years later. So I know you wanted an update on the center school entrance.

Yes.

And the certificate of appropriateness. So am I to understand that we need to fill out the certificate again since it has expired or no?

No, you just need to renew it.

Renew it. Okay. So renewing is this meeting or?

Yes. Okay. Thank you.

So the update is that it will be, there was some issues with getting it manufactured and they did not want to attempt to install it during the school year. So they're waiting until school gets out in a few weeks and they will be doing the installation at the end of June. It did change a little bit since we visited it last, which I know it changed the time before that. So I do, I wish I had a photo of it. I got pictures of it sitting in the warehouse, but yeah, So this is a current. I will pass this around. Look on the other side, too. There's kind of an axon. This is from the shop drawing. So it's a single door that had been changed to because of the ADA access, which I spoke about last time. And it has glazing and the side lights and the transom up above.

Are they all still there?

Yeah, so that was the issue, is that they couldn't do the curves that I had shown that were there. So I can pass that around. And to try to give you more of a visual, it's actually, I think, it's a nice...

I'm sorry, Tanya, if I could just interrupt. I got a little confusion. When you say it changed, did it change from what we approved last year?

It has changed slightly from what you approved last year, yes.

In what respects did it change?

If you look at the image, that will tell you.

Can you read this? This is what we approved a year ago in May. So if you could put those side by side.

It's just, if there are changes, we do need a new C of A.

Okay. So these are all glass panels, the transom and outside, or these are solid?

No, on the side, the bottom one is solid. On the side lights, the bottom one's solid. That one, yep, those two are solid. G is solid, okay. And then the E and F are glass. E and F are glass, and then all along the top is glass. And the door is all solid.

The door is solid.

So it's very similar to, you know, the setup that's solid all through here. Light, light, light. And it's also set within the trim that's there now. That will be preserved. The trim that's within the stone. That's what's there now.

Okay. So this is six foot.

It's in the exact opening that exists currently.

So it looks like the change is that the two bottom side light panels are solid instead of glass.

They were always solid. No, these were solid on these.

Why does it show the changes? I don't understand.

Really, the only change is... The glass along the side there, John...

Because they couldn't make that whole pane, so we divided it into...

Right, because it had a little arch at the top, so it's more square. It's like one of those puzzles. Spot the difference.

Exactly, yes.

But the bottom panels were always... And actually, the inlays are a little bit different, too.

It's not going to have the X. The transom one.

Yes, I see. Whatever you're calling it.

No, they're going to be the square, as indicated. And then this, so you can kind of get a visual of the quality of the steel. And this was, Ambico is the manufacturer of the door. And this is a door, a historical door that they did for West Point.

So you can see the quality. Very nice.

So you can see the quality of the door. It's a very expensive.

So then it's all square rather than the curves at the top.

What's the width of the glass on the sidelight?

It's on that one, I believe. I was interested, too.

So there are quite a few changes.

They are five foot and a half, it looks like.

Five and a half inches, that would be.

Or five and a half inches, yes. Wide. Yes, the panels on the bottom.

Did you see this? I mean, you've got square transoms instead of curved top. You've got This lip and two, and then I guess they're a bit narrower, is that right?

No, they look about the same size, but E and F are glass, G is solid.

I know, but the solid panel appears to be narrower than what's getting shown here. This comes out to the same width.

Actually, the proportions might be a little more balanced. Yeah, this is like five and a half and two.

Yeah. So is the door itself wider? The door, this is...

The door, I believe, is the three foot six, as it was indicated on the application, because that was the size that met the ADA.

Okay.

So we went from a double door to a single door. That's where...

Okay. Well, we need a new C of A detailing these changes. Unfortunately, Martha will check me. If it's a C of A, we have to, by statute, have a public hearing. do it today.

Okay. So I can get you that application in this week. And when do you think that that hearing would happen?

Well, would we have time if we do it at our special meeting next Monday? If you could get it in tomorrow, we could advertise it. Yeah, we could advertise it.

Yeah, I can get the application filled out this afternoon.

That would be especially if you want to start.

Right. I don't want anything to hold up.

I mean, I doubt there are problems, but we really hate to have the precedent of people starting work before there's a C of A. Yeah, I don't think school is out until 19th or something.

Yeah, I don't think they're actually going to do the installation until the week of the 21st. Okay.

All right. Well, thank you. So thank you. And just, you know, attach these and perhaps you could explain the reason for the change and highlight specifically what all the changes are. Of course. And then we could just refer back to the other one, say this is an approval with same as what we approved, but with these changes.

I will do that.

Great.

Thanks, Anya. Were there changes to the walkway as well? No. That's all going to remain the way it is.

Right now it's going to remain the way it is.

Thank you.

Great. Military markers.

We have one housekeeping matter and I just received at the start of the meeting a letter from Martha And I'm not sure I fully had time to discuss it, but it says the Board of Selectmen is planning to proceed with the location of the markers in the location originally proposed. They believe it's justified for the following reasons.

We haven't had time to absorb this, John, because I've been focusing on the other.

Well, let's take a minute. I think we can resolve this quickly. Let's just all take a minute to read it through.

Do you have comments on the jurisdiction? Yes.

I'd like to hear them.

Well, it brings to light an issue with our guidelines, but I think it's clear. So, is the sign affixed to the ground? This letter asserts that it is not attached to the ground. guess i would argue that a stone memorial is akin to a sign post and it's just a sign placed on a marker that's designed to to to serve stones i get draw further support from that from the zoning commission's definition of the sign which actually includes um sculptures uh intended to attract the attention of the general public. So if the memorial is a structure that would seem to fit with the zoning regulations definition.

I'm not too clear on this, but is a sign affixed to a building, for example, the Connecticut Examiner sign, is that affixed to the ground? It's not an advertisement.

Well, it's a fix to the building. I mean, if it's a fix to the building, you have, I think when we wrote the guidelines, what we were thinking of when we put in that it could be an advertising sign attached to the building as an example, and in the draft that we're considering, that's been changed to read attached to a building or strung between structures. what we were thinking of is banners, which, for example, at the church might be strung on the front of a building rather than this, than a more solid sign. I guess I would argue that a sign, we would have jurisdiction over a sign attached to a building as an exterior, exterior architectural feature, which we also have jurisdiction over. Do these monuments not promulgate an idea? Well, that's the second part. We relied on the advice of council. We got an opinion letter describing what was meant by advertising sign. The term in the statute is that we have jurisdiction not only over signs that are structures, but over advertising signs. The opinion letter from counsel said that advertising in a Connecticut state Supreme Court decision is defined very broadly to encompass promulgating doctrines or ideas. And I guess I would say that the idea that's being furthered by these signs is honoring veterans. So I think I would argue first that this is a sign affixed to the ground akin to a sculpture. Um, and that, uh, signs, uh, it is a sign that promulgates, even if it weren't, it is a sign that promulgates an idea of the importance of honoring, honoring veterans. So, uh, my view would be that the HTC does have jurisdiction, um, In a sense, the second paragraph of this letter, which refers to intent, says they are tributes consistent with the goals of the American Legion Memorial. So they're consistent with the promulgation of the idea of honoring veterans. if the intent of the guidelines is to prevent a profusion of signs, then including the markers I'm reading from the letter on the existing memorial would seem preferable to requiring new signage. I guess I disagree with that in part. I think you are in a way creating a profusion of signs. They're actually new signs, and they're perhaps more prominent. That was part of our reasoning for preferring the other option at the last meeting. And the last thing is the location is inconvenient and potentially a hazard to viewers of the town historical markers. I'm not sure it's why it's inconvenient except to folks who like trip over them as as Martha discussed at the last at the last meeting. So I mean, I see Martha online if she cares to make a comment, but that would be my

a quick read reaction to the to the letter if if anyone else has thoughts i think you know that i remember deb making a point at the last meeting the last time we considered this that that this is a project of the garden club it's not a project of the vfw or the american legion and i believe each of the signs includes a you know the recognition of the garden club and therefore I was quite persuaded that including these Garden Club signs in the Garden Club circle was a very appropriate place to locate them, in addition to what you're saying. And the Garden Club, Mary Ellen seemed to say, or she did say, that she doesn't really care where they go. She just wants to get them in the ground. And if she puts them, if they put them in the circle around the history of the town sign, that they would make them look beautiful. And I think that's true and that they would look very attractive there. And I don't think the tripping hazard is a severe risk. There are not that many people that have to climb into the monument, into the garden to see the monument or to be photographed with it. And you could certainly stand outside and away from the monuments. They'll be prominent enough so that you could avoid them if you wanted to be photographed in front of the monument for a wedding or some other reason. So for all those, I'm just adding additional comments.

Well, we should note those comments in the record as supplemental to the reasons that appeared in the last minutes. So there is a housekeeping matter. Although we voted last meeting to express our views that they were appropriately placed in the Garden Club circle, we have in front of us, and still within the 65-day period, a certificate of appropriateness application that specifically asks for their placement on the markers. So for the record, we need to, I believe, take a position on whether to approve that or not. I think implicit in our decision last time was that we preferred the suggestion of Mary Ellen that they go in the circle. I recall her, as Carolyn says, I recall Mary Ellen saying that either placement would be acceptable to the garden club. Apparently, as Martha indicates, the board of selectmen prefers the location of the markers on the wings and

of the existing memorial.

But we determined last time that it was an appropriate placement would be in the circle. So we do need to take a vote on the certificate of appropriateness application.

Would you like to frame of motion job.

Yeah, I would let me move that we deny the certificate of appropriateness application that was most recently filed and reaffirm our preference. Our approval of placement at the town hall in the garden club circle.

Is there a second?

I'll second. Second. Don't second.

Any further discussion?

John, when we first got this application, actually the second time that we got this application, and in reading it, I said, oh, that would be okay. I think putting them on either side, that would be all right. And then once I saw it during the site visit, That's when I said, no, I don't think it's appropriate. And then seeing it decorated for Memorial Day, seeing it like this, I appreciate the simplicity of it. And there is no precedent of any of these byway signs being duplicated with another memorial in any other town. I think that they've all been on their own in certain placements. And look at our examples here.

Well, yeah, as we said last time, I mean, my view was that the existing memorial has a certain dignified look.

And historic.

It has a historic look and historic integrity. But they did look different in part because the images that we saw that you just pointed to that sort of photoshopped in, the memorials didn't show the colors and they didn't show the stars protruding above and they didn't show the inscription that it was a garden club project.

If the VFW or whoever has oversight over the memorial came forward with an initiative to engrave those wing walls, would that be considered?

Well, I think, yeah, it would be considered. It could be an inscription that, for example, honored veterans in conflicts. So it's not the intent to leave those wing walls blank? Well, I can't say there's an intent one way or the other. I mean, I find the memorial as it is dignified. It may well be that inscriptions engraved into the stone would be similarly dignified.

Any further discussion?

All those in favor?

Aye. Aye.

Aye. I'm in favor.

Okay, motion carries 500. Next on the agenda is the discussion of the carriage house.

Nice to see you up again.

What a beautiful day. It is. So I almost made a horrible mistake, and it's really not their fault. But now that we've been here for a year and a half, I have a much stronger sense of the community, which we all love very, very dearly. It's an amazing place.

But I, because, excuse me, just one moment, if I could interrupt. Are you going to do, I have to leave. I'm very interested. I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Are you going to do signage today, John? If you do, I have just two suggestions, which I was going to mention. If you're going to leave signage.

It's not going to be concluded today, but I would.

I'm going to wait just to see the original.

Okay, because I need you at the beginning of it, definitely. So no plans. So I nixed that because they're very good at what they do. And they presented it to me and I went, this is not a fit for this community. And so I just mixed it. So why I'm here today is to answer some of the first questions that you had, which took me a long time to get some answers. And one of the questions that you had asked was, could we find the date of the buildings? And that is really, really tough. But I have a couple of clues. And one of the clues comes from you.

I think I found it. I mean, in that document.

So I have a picture from your article, which we so appreciate. I'm telling you, it's unbelievable. It's from 1922. And if you take a look,

you can see what you don't see. We switched to another. Oh, yeah. It was all good.

Well, that was okay. It was so okay. I have to do it all over again.

But, yeah.

But anyway, it's from 1922. And when you look at the picture, once I find it again, you're going to realize what you don't see, which is the carriage house. And what I can kind of tell, because it's tough, there is... No, I'm not going to touch it. There is a building there. It's not in the same location. It's further back. And I know that's it.

Is that building that you can see through the portico?

Yeah, no, that's the back of the house at that time. Where's the structure? Right. The structure now lives there currently. Now you sort of see something there, but it is not.

It's nicely concealed from the street, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. And so I have more photos to show you, but as far as I got was, now that I've lived with the structure longer, what I realized, and now I'm understanding in Connecticut it's normal, that there's a possibility that was basically an old barn at that time, a small structure. that they put clabbered on after this period of time. So that's what we have.

So Victor, you're talking about what we can see through the portico as that's part of the house.

It's really tough. You can just see something in the trees on the left. This is where the Carriage's house is now. There's something there, but that has nothing to do with the building that there is now.

Because that's part of the house.

Yeah, that's part of the house. So, you know, number one, what do I do about that?

Victor, I have a question. I haven't looked at this material for years, but But did I include in that or did I not a document that states the materials? Yes. Wasn't it James Gladwell?

Yes, it is there.

This is all 10 years ago.

Yeah, it is there.

Does that list of materials give any indication of a carriage house?

No, it's just the building of the house. That's my memory of it, the documentation. I remember something about the carriage house. Because the carriage house is actually owned by someone else.

Oh.

the actual carriage house to the property is no longer our property. It belongs to David Handler and Drake on Library Lane. That is the original carriage house.

Oh, I see. So there was an original carriage house. Yes, that's what I remember.

So that would be on that bill. And then Sabrina Roberts' house was the barn to our property.

Which house is Sabrina Roberts?

She's 9 Library Lane. There's now a fence there, right? Over the fence. That was the barn. That was the Chadwick barn. Right.

Okay.

Good for you.

That's so great. I'm so sorry. So next time, I'd be happy to talk with you about it.

Yeah, thank you so much. So now I don't know, you know, What do you all say about that? That's number one. And then I'll show you the barn that I found underneath the clabbered. So, and I've been told, I don't know how true this is or not. So, okay, so now this is the original barn right there. That's the original barn, that's the original post. And then as time went on, somebody created an extension so that a car could fit in there, you know?

Very clever.

So now what? That's number one. And then, you know, and then number two, I did check and it's 225 feet from the road, so you can see it. And I'm getting to a point where I just slowed the whole thing down because the design people went crazy. And good for them. I mean, it's what they do for a living. But it did not pertain to the property. It did not fit correctly with the property. So I'm going to slow this all down and answer the questions that were asked me the first time, which is, what do you see from the road? And from the road, you can see the west wall. which is this wall. You can see that wall.

Okay.

Right. Yep.

And you can see the south wall.

Oh, come on.

Which is the barn doors, which are not original. here we go okay so this is the south wall oh okay so that's what you see right and originally I was asking about and I want to do this before any plans are put together for you folks and for me but the one thing I was saying that I need if I want to convert this into a studio is light and I'm I have now polled a lot of the artists who have built studios on the property around here. And I can't even believe how many there are. It's unbelievable, really. And a lot of them say that skylights would suffice, that that would do it. So I would not have to touch that north wall. Originally, I thought I'd have to put windows in there. And they're saying, no, if you do skylights correctly, you're going to have too much light and you're going to have to learn how to control it with shades. So I'm simplifying all of my ideas before I bring drawings to you and ask for changes. But I want to be in discussion with you folks before I even do that. Is that making sense?

Yeah.

I mean, I think...

Curly, yes.

Yes, I'm here. No, I didn't say anything.

You're making sense. Yeah, I think attention to the original historic book is very important as much as it can be done. We We accommodate change, but I think you're wise to be thinking along the lines you're thinking.

Yeah. And I'm actually now living here for this period of time. I literally feel the push and pull of modernity and what this community stands for and what it's about. And I And I am all for it, I just love it. So, and now the name of the game is how do I do this with modern day construction people? Because I've already learned that if I try to insulate this in a modern fashion, it will rot the original building. That's new. I learned that within the past three days. So it's just things like that that I have to contend with. And these people, there's nothing wrong with them. They're doing their job. But they don't even know what I'm saying. You know what I mean? They don't know what I'm saying. Like, what are you talking about? And it's only people who deal with these structures. They go, oh, yeah, that's right.

I mean, as you probably know, there are some contractors who specialize in preservation and restoring. That's who I'm going to have to talk to. Who is Russ using?

I can get the name. I can get that contact.

Steve Hallahan. Skip, yeah. Skip Room. They're passionate about this and have found ways to incorporate things like insulation in ways that don't damage the original structure.

Okay, great. And so, I mean, I don't have a lot to talk about other than that today, but so even to change the appearance of this, like how far could I even try? And I'm at a point where I don't even want to try. I want to figure out how to insulate this so that could be, you know, year-round. So maybe that's just the first name in the game, is to do that.

Yeah, I mean, you need to think about what you want, and you've exhibited today a historical sensitivity that's admirable. But it's, you know, if you have specific ideas about if you decide to go with skylights or some other modest changes, just come back and talk to us. And you're aware our jurisdiction extends just to exterior. We're not saying anything about how you insulate on the inside.

I get that. But definitely skylights would be the way to go after doing all my due diligence. And would that be a possibility on the other side of the roof, which cannot be seen from the street? I really, you know, did that a lot. I looked, look, you can't see the other side of the roof at all. So is that a possibility?

I'm sorry, the skylight, you can see or you cannot see from the street?

Can't see it. In what direction would, That's the, okay, so that's the north wall. So this is the wall facing Library Lane. North light is supposed to be good. That's right. That's the reason for it. That's exactly right. Oh, somebody said yes. Curly?

Yeah, no, I think if you can't see them from the street and it's a north light, I would say it's a go, but I'm new here.

Curly's new, but she has a lot of experience with landscape design and old houses. Oh, excellent.

And I'm also an artist.

Oh.

I'm also an artist.

Nice to meet you, Curly.

I appreciate your need for light, but I would say that if they're not visible from the street, I don't see any problem.

Excellent. Okay, thank you. So that's a step. And then the next thing is we have... Christine Darnell we decided to use her to design the gardens and we just had the meeting with her and my darling wife said what about a pergola in the back so and I now know working with Christine that she is really diligent about doing the right thing by you folks as well And so I mapped out where the pergola would be or part of it would be, and you would see it from the street. And my guess would be to match the columns of the house so that it would go. So basically, I'll show you what I'm talking about now. So you're going to see this little dot all the way over there. That's the dot. And that's a possibility of where the pillar of the pergola would be. And I would propose to match this, to echo this. Do you have an idea of the size? This is 20 feet from the house. That dot goes from this corner to here. So the size, I don't know the size yet. I don't have an exact slide yet, but I would say somewhere for the visual would be somewhere around here where my finger is.

And that's a whole other can of worms.

So the whole thing would be visible from the street. It's not behind the house.

It is behind the house. Yeah. Oh, and then I'll show you. Yeah. I'll show you where it would go. Yeah. Okay, this is where it would go. I mean, it definitely needs... So that's where it would go. Oh, it has to be higher. Okay, here's your answer.

It has to be higher than that window.

So that's your answer. And how many feet would that be from the street? My guess is about 175 feet.

Yeah, it's much closer.

Yeah. most of it's on the back of the house you just correct just that one corner okay yeah and so yeah so i try to get an echo yeah so that looks like it's part of the house and then if you tell me that i can't have a pergola you won't be upset don't let that out of this room i can feel the knife in my back already so anyway so that was the next thing well okay i i know what to do next yes yeah you want to proceed with a a pergola come in with a sketch and gotcha dimensions and all that and that's when it would need a certificate of appropriateness okay occasion that needs to be in

How long? A week to 10 days before the meeting?

We're off in August, right? We don't meet in August.

We meet in July, but not until September.

I think I have enough to work with now. I just wanted to check with you all. We appreciate it. That's an odd situation that the clapboard is not original. It's just a shat barn, really. Kind of dressed up with clouds. Now it is. All right. Thank you all. Much appreciated. Good to see everybody. Bye-bye.

See you again.

Okay. Let's do the reports and see where we are on...

I do have to go.

Other issues.

I'm sorry. I have to leave in like 10 minutes.

Well, let me do the chair's report quickly. Many of these things are noted on your or some of them are noted on your sheet. We heard about Amtrak. Please take a look. If you haven't, I put the link in on the attachment that was circulated with meeting materials. Please take the zoning survey. If you have views about the importance of the historic district, there's probably space. I haven't done mine yet, but there's probably space for comments. Some issues concern things that are not discussed. relevant to the historic district, but some may. We I have not heard a time for zoning to meet with various commissions in particular with this commission to discuss the zoning regulations workshop. I've noticed that many, many other boards and commissions have scheduled agenda items to discuss their comments. We made we can add more, but we made some significant substantive comments in the material that we submitted in phase one, and phase one was really just a technical revision. So those comments, I've been assured, will be considered in phase two. I do think it's important to track what's happening with the regulations. And I note that the first of three general workshops is scheduled for this Thursday evening at 7. I unfortunately have another meeting and a commitment and I cannot go. I'm hoping someone can attend. This one focuses on environmental issues but includes vistas and that could be relevant to spaces along Lyme Street. So if someone or more of you are able to attend, I hope you will do that. I have registered, but again, it's free and you're welcome. It's an hour on June 11th at noon to hear about the state's new 10-year statewide historic preservation plan. I had a conversation, next item, about Halls Road sidewalks with Tim Griswold, who's the chair of the Halls Road sidewalk committee. He said that for now, at least, he would be the point person to this committee. I assured him he didn't have to come to all of our meetings, but at least we know who to contact and he would be willing to come in and discuss plans. He had a couple really interesting comments about the preliminary discussions with the Department of Transportation. One idea they're pursuing is to shift the sidewalk from the north end of Hall Throes to the south end. which would connect more directly to this part of Lime Street, would allow direct access into the main shopping center and post office without folks having to cross the street. He said, DOT, I'm talking about the Halls Road plan, and Tim is willing to be- Sidewalk plans? Yeah. But they're also talking about possibilities for moving the sidewalk to the south side of the street, which could allow more direct access without crossing the street into the post office and the shopping center. He said that they raised the possibility of another stoplight, I presume, at the post office. And DOT, his words, pretty much put the kibosh on it. That's good. He said, and this may just have been a toss-away point, it's not directly related to their mandate, but he mentioned the vision someday of creating a sidewalk that would go all the way down Halls Road and then left on the Shore Road and loop back into the village. So somebody could do a pedestrian or bike tour of the whole area and I presume come up Ferry Road. People walk that all the time and they're in the shoulder. Yeah, but sidewalks would be nice. I raised the possibility with Tim of trying to finally do something about the mishmash of signs at the exit ramp and getting a wayfaring sign. And he was receptive, and he said, in general, well, as we're doing this work, it makes sense that that would be the time to- I'm glad I got a vote on something that I feel strongly about, so.

Is that Curly or Martha?

That was me talking to my husband. I apologize.

Oh, okay. I thought you were making a comment. John, this is Martha.

Sorry, but you should look at EDC is working on wayfaring signs. That would be something that they would be coming to you with. But that is in there. That's their purview, and they're working on that. It's part of their strategic plan, which you might want to look at. It's on their website.

Oh, okay. Thank you.

But it won't be part of the Halls Road sidewalk part.

No, no. Okay. Would they be able to weigh in on it? Tim may not be aware of that.

Well, you also mentioned that we had a meeting with and I do not think that your South side is going to come into fruition because of the fact that we would have to build a retaining wall against 95 and that is going to be extremely costly. We need we need about 10 to 12 feet from the curb into land. And when you start to do that, then you erode there. Uh. Sloping, the slope. And then you would require, they would require retaining wall. They would also have to, we'd have to jump through a million hoops between federal and state regarding future plans for 95. And if they're not sure what they're going to do yet with that area, they're not going to let us use it.

Okay. All right. Well, that's helpful. I mean, my conversation with Tim was, was, uh, was not, not that in, in, in depth. Um, he, he, he did mention that there would be need for some construction on the South side, but I didn't get into a discussion about as you've just relayed how complicated and expensive it would be.

Yeah. Um, but, but please look Jeff Hartman and, uh, Eileen Mueller and, um, Joe came in and have worked very hard on the strategic. Well, the whole committee's worked very commission has worked very hard on their plan, but 1 of them is wayfaring signs and I think that you should see what they are thinking of.

Okay, okay, great. Thanks. So, that was that was it for. For my report, Martha.

Yeah, before I do the Secretary's report, we should make a motion to continue the public hearing for the 36 Lime Street if we're going to have a site visit.

That's right.

I'll make the motion. That makes a motion to continue the public hearing until 930 on

January 8th. Second? Second.

Discussion? All in favor? Aye.

You could be qualified to vote now. Why don't you vote?

Martha? Okay, so The. So we're still monitoring. Well, do you have a meeting if I know?

Yeah, I think I think we'll probably save discussion of signage till till next Monday. So that's the only thing really remaining today. I'm sorry. That's been interrupted twice. That's OK.

So we're still monitoring 18. Issues. and things in the historic district. The only one that we have to deal with in July would be to renew the number one Lime Street C of A for their porch and foundation work. That's expiring today.

Can you be in touch with Is it Charlie? Charlie, yeah.

I'll give him a call and find out what's going on with that. I think they've finished the windows, but I'll double check on that too. Okay. Because that C of A was renewed.

Okay. Yeah. And remind him, as we had the previous discussion, if they do have any changes, we would need to approve a revised C of A. Yeah, yeah. so other than that everything else is in progress how about the shed at oh dear I'm blanking on the numbers near Deb's property oh the 97 Lime Street garden shed yeah when is that C of A let's see

That C of A expires in July, so that one needs to be renewed too.

Thank you for your comprehensive report, which is very useful as a reference in every set of minutes.

It is really good. I just leave it there and Update it. But it is good because it really does help us keep track of things.

Did you ever hear anything more from Elena, the intern?

No, I think she's fine.

So that puts work on you again as you have time to enter things in the spreadsheets.

Well, what I was able to do was because I had everything in these word tables, I found an application that would convert it to Excel. So that's what I did. And it's a free application. It converts all kinds of things to whatever you want. It's really... great. So I did that and I used her template that she prepared and I kind of combined the whole thing. So we're in pretty good shape with that now.

Maybe in July attach a sample just so we can all get an idea of the information and how it's laid out. Yeah. It would be great. It was good.

Do you have a way that you back up your computer, you have so much valuable information.

What I do is I have a lot in email. Like I have a lot of folders in email that are backed up. But that's a really good point. And I have been told that I could use Google Docs to back things up. The town does not have room on their servers, apparently, for this stuff, which is unfortunate. The other thing I could do is just save it to a thumb drive.

Our cemetery project director just had her computer just fail. And a lot of the data that and she's having to send it to a forensic whatever so just hearing what you have on your computer I have everything I mean for drafts like that occasionally it wouldn't hurt to copy Russ and me at least so someone has them but there are external hard drives that you could

plug in right I could do that yeah yeah um but yeah it's I think about that and every once in a while I I copy everything to a thumb drive but I imagine that HDC could find a few dollars to purchase a some kind of external drive if it's the use would be to safeguard safeguard our records yeah

Why don't you investigate that? Okay.

Anything else? There's been some activity on 62 Lime Street, historic research. A lot. Yes. Tracy's been doing all kinds of things. Tracy Navarro has been investigating and has found out lots of interesting things.

And Martha and Carolyn have been doing a lot. Yes.

Which one's 62? That's the one.

The barbershop.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. The music. They're like a restaurant now or something.

But the one next to it. Kind of yellow. Next to the Spratz. The J.M. Elms building. Okay. That one. Yeah. Yeah. It's a. I think what. What. looks like might have happened is that the old the original house that was there was incorporated into the building that's there now that's what it looks like may have happened but it may have happened it may have been a newer structure on an older foundation i think

We take the position in dating houses that it's the date of the structure rather than the date of the foundation that counts, because that's what you see is existing. Exactly.

Yeah. So that's still, it's interesting, though, what she's found.

She's taken some wood samples from the Bugbee area. Because they just cut in the French doors.

Oh, yes. Yes.

She's comparing that. Carolyn has put in a lot of work. She had Martha, but I am copied on these back and forth emails with Tracy and One of many things that takes a lot of work. She also went to the New London Day archives. Yes, she went through all of those.

Okay, anything else?

No, I don't have anything else.

We are at almost 11, so since we're meeting next Monday, I think we saved the signage guidelines, but let me just I want to on Monday, highlight the changes I made. There are several issues, but one of the main ones, just for Deb and Ed, well, Deb already kind of knows about this, and Ed and Curly to be thinking about, Deb asked some prominent realtors about their views, and some of their comments were picky, and some of the, I think we'd already considered, but The bigger picture one is, why do we want to allow realtor signs at all? That's a threshold. New Canaan is in the process of banning them, according to an article that I attached a link for. Or secondly, if we have them, why do we want them so large? example of Groton Longpoint was put out there, which allows you to have tiny little signs that say for sale and the number of a broker. And that's it. No branding. No branding. I was surprised. I shouldn't have been surprised that the realtor comments had some real objections to larger signs.

They're very consistent, the two of them. And I didn't tell either one of them that I was contracting.

In part because, well, they're large and it contributes to sign clutter. And one of them was particularly thought a bunch of contractor signs were cluttery. The other is if you have as the historic district did for a few months, a number of houses for sale, it hurts their business, because they say people come along and say, well, what's wrong with this area?

Everybody's trying to get out.

And so they're not necessarily in favor of large signs. Whether we could accomplish, well, that's just, so in the draft, I sort of bracketed what we had been working on and then another bracket is just to say, we're in the process of discussing this issue so we could get revisions on other things up there. But I do think maybe we should take a step back from the details and think about whether we wanna even allow those signs.

Don't the agents have to pay for some of these signs?

Some of them do, some of them don't. Because if you're a top seller, you don't have to pay for it.

But, you know, the comments were people search online and they can plug in an address and drive by. Yes.

Do we actually have that jurisdiction? That's amazing.

Well, that's a question. I don't know whether we could. I think we could. We could, I mean, we have jurisdiction over structures. We could say that certain types of structures are not allowed. I mean, posts planted into the ground. But it's a good question, Curly, because at some point, guidelines, which, as I envision them, are guidelines for people, but we can make exceptions, turn into regulations, and then you need a town ordinance. That's a good question, Curly, to explore, and I don't know the answer to it off the top of my head. Thanks.

John, what's the distinction between a flag sign and a feather sign? One we allow and one we don't.

We don't allow freestanding feather signs. Freestanding feathers. I think that's the way that the guidelines are. All right. So if it's on the side of a post, like it's a museum for their changing exhibitions that we have allowed, Yeah, prohibited signs include freestanding teardrop flags and feather flags signs. Okay, we'll postpone again all their new business, but maybe we'll get to some of it next Monday. Is there a motion to adjourn? Second. I think Deb beat you to it, Curly, but... Thank you, Curly, for phoning in.