Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Uh, I think we can call to order. Um, we're going to need until Is John on too. Yeah. Yeah. We'll call the meeting to order. And I think it would be Dave, you would be um Next. Next. Yeah. So, we'll we'll um So, do we have a Oh, there's Karen. Scratch that. Well,

yeah. Good morning. So, we'll call the meeting to order. Um do we have a motion uh for approval of the January 5th meeting minutes? So, move. Second. Do we have a second? So, Ed and then Deb. Uh, do we have any comments on the meeting minutes? Where is John?

Any comments on the meeting? Okay. Uh, all in favor of approving the minutes say I. I. I. Approved. Um, do we have any public comment? General comments? We do. Yes. Please. Yes. Yeah, please come up. So, um, Ginger Harris, please come up and Yeah. And if you want to pull a chair out, you're more than welcome to do that, too.

We're here representing um a neighborhood by the middle school and the high school where the lights are affecting the residences. Um, we have two discussions we're going to have. The first one is about the middle school in the evening. Um there's a three light I don't I could also flip it upside for you but um the gym ransom light which is on the top

and there's new lights that were installed which you'll see obviously on the building and then there's parking lot lights all of which have changed since the last time I was at this meeting when he had pack lights that were on the school. Um, now the gym transom light, which is the first part I'll address, that just light trespasses out everywhere and it's on until sometimes 11:00 at night. Now, I worked at a public school. I worked at a private school and school hours are over usually around by 5. I have no idea why the gym transom light is on all evenings. The lights on the building stay on until 900 p.m. and then the parking lot lights are on sometimes till midnight. the all of which the lighting, as you can see, is excessively bright. It almost feels like a prison. It doesn't like it's a a school in a historic district. And there are three different schools that, you know, have different lighting. There's the center school, the middle school, and the high school. I've walked around the entire building to count how many lights are on each school. The center school has six, and their lights are lower lumens and more protected, such as this. So much more calm. And the high school has 10 on the entire school. Now, I'm not including the pathway lighting, which is like beautiful and

low level. You're talking about uh exterior building

exterior building lights. Anything anything affixed. The middle school, however, has 32 lights on the exterior of the building. So, and their lights are significantly brighter. They give off more lumens and they also light trespass which per the governor are not allowed to be even on a public building. So this is breaking the laws of Connecticut lighting. So if it's going to be over 1,800 lumens, it needs to be shielded for Governor Lamont. And as you can see that if I looked up at this light and Ed Pin here who's an eye doctor I I was blinded for two light for two minutes fully after trying to take a photo of it. So it's excessively bright and he's even turned this down. So this is considered in a lower format. Um he assured me when he was going to replace these lights that they were going to look like this.

And is that at an entrance or that's not that is just over a random door. He has them affixed to just the building on the actual front facing that faces Lime Street. There are say I think there's 14. So that exceeds the entire high school. And they're not shielded. Yeah, some of them are. There are a few that are like this. And is that photo taken from across the street or at the This one was taken directly from my house which is looking uh 62 Lime Street directly across from the middle school. Oh, okay. So that's the barber shop in the for

Yep, that's the Yep. directly across and then this I stood taking the photo of each of those. Um so I I don't believe the gym transom, you know what's interesting? The high school gym transom has blackout shades on it. So it's completely protected. This is a very long ransom. I mean, it exceeds like it's just quite large. So, it feels excessively bright and unnecessary in the historic district in my opinion. Um, and I feel that just the parking lot lights alone, which are at least 10 to 20 times brighter than high school parking lot lights because he installed all new lighting and there's about 60 or 50 parking lot lights that are in the front. This is actually the historic district. I measured beginning of the parking lot and then on the side the parking lot lights are still there too. So they're very very bright. I mean you could actually turn off all of the school lights and leave the parking lot lights on. It would be sufficient. But um so that that's my

when were when when did this began? In other words, when when were the lights added and when did you The last time I was here, which was in right after election of 20 24, he installed pack lights per the request of the town and pack lights are not allowed. So he said, I will switch them. I will switch them. It took him a year and two months to switch them. So this is what he switched them to. Wait, who is he? Uh Ian Nebah. Oh, Neviser. Okay. Sorry. Switch them to the brighter. Turn it so John can see the Oh, I'm so sorry. No, that's fine. I'm sorry, John. Can you hear me? I apologize. So, this

the camera's up top there. So, you can It's early for John. He's on the West Coast. [laughter] Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Yeah, so I'm happy to email these to you as well. That would be helpful. Well, that's that's okay. I have a I have a good idea. Thank you. videos. I have photos of every stage in the evening. And so so so the the if it if the properties are in the district and this is something that the historic commission at the same time, I'll note that the zoning uh commission is rewriting the zoning ordinance,

right? And this is actually one of the items in one of our comments uh is properties that are outside the historic district that aren't under our purview but then have impact onto Y this absolutely in fact something that we would like for the zoning commission to consider in their rewrite. Correct. I would suggest that this same presentation um be submitted to the zoning commission um at their public hearing uh so that so that that's identified and I think we you know we'll look into this.

Okay. Yeah, Eric I've looped into it and he indicated to Ian that the lights really should be turned off an hour after the close of business and an hour before. That's like standard practice. Um, I mean, my mom lives in a historic district. I've never I've never This is This is so bright and unnecessary. I think Have you been in front of us before? Yes. Okay. When we had the pack lights put on the school, it looked like a Taylor Swift. Was there another person that lived south of the school? Just [snorts] I don't came in. I just don't recall if we did anything. What was it? I know Eric had come, but I don't know. ered this

that's the secondary discussion was the flashing billboard sign which so okay and did we do anything um the flashing billboard sign goes off at 8:00 at night and is on at 5:00 a.m. might be on actually earlier, but um it used to be all night long and say I've seen it later. But it is still uh it is um more than a nuisance. Yeah. Um obnoxious um

and unnecessary. I mean, the amount of time it takes you to drive up that entrance, I you know, the students probably get two messages, maybe max that because, you know, by the time they get to that, and then take a left to go into the high school, they're really not actually getting all this information. It feels like it should belong in the high school, not at the entrance, which is intact in the entire residential district. But it's quite a light show. I mean, in the evening, you can see the lights illuminated over the sky and it's bright flashing. It's pretty significant. And I can send a video of that, too. I We filmed that. I've driven in and I can't even read what's on the board because the background of it is so bright,

right? And in fact, the um dark sky compliant, this is considered not dark sky compliant in the evening whatsoever because of the type of lumens. They're actually 10 times brighter than a billboard, which I was surprised to I'm surprised this was installed and allowed to be installed. Is the radiation is is the radiation coming from the billboard or is there a light it comes from the billboard but it um it tresp like it it goes up into the sky and it has quite a diameter. So, one of the things that that that we're requesting is that it's that's called the direct lighting versus indirect where you're correct shining onto the whatever this

right it's not shielded and you can't feel a light like this and and I don't believe it it should even be there. That's a separate issue. But if it's going to be there, the residents think it should be turned off at an appropriate hour. Yes. I mean, we originally said 6 p.m., but the more I've thought about it, I found out that this can't even be installed within a mile of a wetlands. So, that's a whole another issue because this is definitely within a mile of the wetlands. So, I I think it should be turned off maybe even at 5. I mean, who in the high school this if you have sports practices and I was a coach there, it's 2:30 to 4:30. I mean, really after 5 is unnecessary. So,

all right. any any other questions or comments? I know there are some late games, basketball or what, right? But it just needs to be toned down, right? Even if there were a game as such, um you're usually a lot of people are leaving the school, so they're not even reading the sign. That's part one. But but part two, they've already seen the student of the month, right? You know, and whatever else, you know, happy winter. They've already seen those two messages flash on their way in. how many times you need to see it throughout the day. It's just it's just too it's blinding and the it's problematic that it's so close to the wetlands because there are wetlands there. Yeah, it is. And it's affecting obviously wildlife and Ginger used to have birds and

I used to have a lot of birds. I'm at 73 Lime Street. Yeah, she really every bedroom in the house. My backyard um goes up to the uh tennis courts. So, there's wetlands back there. So I know the wetlands are right there in this. Um I can tell you the time and temperature from eight rooms of not there is no power because it has been on their generator as well. Um so that's fun. So it's never off no fees.

I don't know if they changed that after they started turning it off in the middle of the night. Um cuz it was, you know, we installed um blackout shades and curtains um because our bedrooms are back there, right? Um but it's just very inconsiderate to have installed it res. We call it um we have call it the the Vegas sign.

Yeah. Um and I'm surprised it has taken me this long to come here. Um I guess I'm a naive and thought oh you know if a uh government entity installed this it must check all the boxes and abide by everything but um after speaking with some of my neighbor many of my neighbors actually you'll see what she's we put together here I learned I'm not the only one just because I live very close to it and can see it doesn't mean I'm the only one impacted there's many other

and it also is on an Sunday I was over at Erica's the brand new house that was just built and she in her kitchen and I'm like it's on on a Sunday as well. So it's it should be off on Sundays. It should be off on holidays. It should be off when they're not in session and I Saturday to me we have just recently upgraded our assigned guidelines. Okay. And in that many of the things that you're talking about have been added time of day uh Kelvin all right. So, um, this is all very recent that this past year. So, um, I think we're getting

more up to speed on light impact. I know the town is as well. So, if you if you'd like to submit any of these materials. Oh, yeah. This is for you. And I have if you need videos or anything like this. I don't know if we need videos. I think this is sufficient. Maybe a copy of your original. Yeah. I didn't make a copy of this, but you guys, this is for you. And um this is the middle school light and this is what's this is the high school. I don't know if you need me to leave it in there. Go ahead. Okay. But just so you know, I didn't label it. Um but I could have printed off hundreds of photos for you. We'll start this discussion in new business. Um and but thank you. You're welcome. Yeah. Thank you.

When is the next hearing on the new zoning? I think a week from today. Yeah, that's why I was saying the next the the the the new zoning regulation uh is being considered and some of the lighting uh elements are being changed in that as well. Okay. So, this is a great time to provide comment to the zoning commission. And when is that again? When is that meeting? Their next meeting is the 9th. The 9th here. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we could do that. So hopefully you have copies of all that that

I did make a copy of this, but um maybe Ed or somebody can help me grab a copy of this before you leave your meeting. Maybe I can go run over and get it or probably keep that. And I believe you're going to you should submit something before the 9th to the Yes, before the meeting. Okay. Well, I could just take a picture of this and then just give this to you. Go to the office. They'll make you copy. Okay. I'll make a copy. I don't need you. Okay. Keep the original. Yes. Blue ink is important. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we really think that like changing the times, changing the days are probably the most important part really and obviously the lumens, which I didn't realize were required now in the state of Connecticut.

Lumens and then also something that we're focused on in the historic district is color temperature. I agree. Should be warm, not cold. Warm, not cold. And then cut off so we're not affecting the the dark sky. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. No, it's really interesting stuff. A lot of towns have adopted under these dark sky compliant. So, it's nice to see old lime. Great. Thank you for your input. Thank you everyone. I appreciate it. I'll make a copy of this and bring it back.

Um, I think we need to move to election of officers. Um, so we need a a motion to elect officers and then a second and then a vote. We we just voted at the end of last year, but uh that was only for the remainder of 2025, right? So, do we make a a nomination? How would you like I I think we need a motion, correct, Martha? Yeah.

Yeah, we need a motion. I'll make the motion that the we elect as um chairs both John Noise and Russ Todd and as vice chair um Deb Turn. Do we have a second? Any discussion? All in favor? I or I abain I guess. Yes, you better. [laughter] I abstain and John abstains and Deb abstains. her. Do we have do we have three yes votes if people are [snorts] abstaining? She doesn't have to abain if we don't.

Okay. You don't have to abain from So yeah, I I would make I would make it as uh as two motions, one for co-chairs and and one for vice chair. Good idea. I was in the motion. All right. So, we need an uh revised motion for co-chairs. Co-chairs. I nominate um John and Russ as co-chairs at the HTC. We do. We have a second. All in favor? Okay. Do we have a motion for a vice?

Well, wait a sec. Wait a second. You need to record any opposed and abstensions. I abstain. John abstains and I abstain. The motion carries. Three to three to three. Three to zero to two. Me. Right. [snorts] Now, now I'd like a motion for Do we have a motion for vice chair? That we appoint both uh Deb vice chair. That's your motion. Do you make a motion? I move second.

Ed moves. Caroline seconds. Do we can we have discussion? Any discussion? Are you going to do a good job? Good enough for me. I think it's been it's been tough. It's been tough so far, Deb. [laughter] Okay. Uh in this situation, uh John and I can vote. So, all in favor? I. Okay. No, no abstensions. Well, one six we had four. So, one abstension. All right. Um there. Good. Motion carries.

Motion carries. Yeah. Uh co-chair's report. Don,

uh I just have a couple items. First is I see Curly Liieber there. Yes. And uh here I just want to welcome you. Um you will undoubtedly get to participate as a voting member occasionally. The way we do that is that as you may have heard is we if the not all five regular members show up, we rotate amongst the the um the alternates. But [snorts] anyway, um, welcome and please please ask anyone if you have any any questions and thank you.

You're you're you're more than welcome even if you're not when you're not voting to just contribute to the the discussion at at meetings. Thank you. And John and Curley sworn in. Uh, oh, she is good. So she can take her seat as an alternate. Yeah. I mean, Curley has some background in in design work and some experience working with National Historic Register Properties that will be uh I think extremely valuable uh to to have someone with that background on the on the committee commission. [snorts] Um

and I second John's welcome.

Thank you. Um my my second item is I had had written um Eric Knap about several questions or not several a few questions uh concerning the historic uh district and I wanted to report at this time on two of them. One has to do with wire wire signs. I asked whether those would be considered portable signs under the um under the uh zoning regulations. My reason for asking that that question is because the existing zoning regulations give as examples of portable signs only sandwich board signs. Uh the proposed new regulations simply say portable signs. Seems to me they're portable. Eric confirms that they're portable. The interesting thing is he says um I have with the with the exception of contractor signs and signs that are very tempor temporary for a nonprofit event with those exceptions. He says, "I have just started pulling wire signs out and leaving them with public works." However, he has not done that on Lime Street uh only because compared to other locations in town, the numbers of signs have not been excessive. We can discuss how you would like me to handle this going forward. Um, my suggestion is that we simply get back

to Eric and uh um tell him to include in his uh enforcement activities the removal of for-profit wire signs, you know, signs other than event event signs. Um, the the other thing was to check on the status of the ice cream shop. And I learned some things here. He says, uh, the ice cream shop is the subject of a very specific variance. If you operate a food service operation in the front, you have to live in the back. And apparently he has been approached by several potential buyers of the property and says so far everyone who has come in does not want to live in the back themselves. They want to rent the back out to a tenant which is not consistent with the home occupation parameters of the variance. Um and then from the perspective of zoning, uh he says if someone wanted to create another kind of home occupation, zoning regulations limit that business use to 25% of the site and require two dedicated parking spaces and of course a person would have to live in the in the property. So with those restrictions, who who knows? There might be someone who wants to start a home occupation. There may be someone who simply wants to convert the property to a residence. [snorts] Those were the only items I wanted to

report on at this point. That's is that basically a zoning com u variance issue? not a story district issue at this point. Correct.

That's correct. And and I mean we really have no no say about um u uses because u we're concerned with structures but it it I had had heard some questions about what was happening with the property and at a certain point if it if it stays vacant we and the property's in need of of repair or somebody comes comes in and wants to to to change the structure at all. We we may be faced with questions.

All right, great. Thank you, John. Um, let's see. It's 9:25, 9:20. Um, 52 Lime Street. I'm sorry, Russ. I did you have some issue you were going to comment on? I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. remind me. Was there something? There was something and I I'm blanking on it. Yeah, I if I find it, I can come. We can in new business comment later. Yeah, new business. Yeah, I don't I I I don't think so at this point. So, um 52 Live Street.

Is there anyone here from the duck? Yeah. Great. The applicant, you'll note, is Martha. Morning.

Good morning. Good morning. Please pull up a chair. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm Mary Basham, as you all know. And this is my River Garden Club group. Our president Leslie is here. Um, and our vice president Paula is here. So we are all here. So, so Marilyn, before we get started, um I think you visited with us uh two meetings ago

and at that time you had uh indicated that there were two or three locations that you were looking at, maybe four, um some within the district, some outside of the district, and I would like for us to have a conversation uh about the proposed location, but also some of these other locations as why you chose them or did not choose them and then also a discussion u from the commission um I think we'll we'll have continue the conversation about some other uh ideas that have been discussed. So maybe if you could touch on all those points.

Yes, absolutely. Yes. Go ahead. I would just like to know you made a presentation to the board of uh super but uh selectment um what happened there. Could you tell us?

Yeah, absolutely. I can tell you everything you want to know. Just so y'all know, I did watch your YouTube video of the recording, so I'm pretty much up to speed on everything you talked about. I'm happy to answer all your questions. I do have an alternative plan that I'd like to talk to about, too. Um, and if that's something that you think would be uh a better fit, I'd rather spend the time kind of conversing about that and not wasting a lot of people's time talking about the alternative. But I will for this selectman meeting um basically I went in and I presented them with the idea um and we had a discussion about it and they were very much on board with it. Um there weren't a whole lot of questions. Um, I know that some of you it was it was pretty easy. Like there was not a lot of push back. Um, they were very supportive of it. Um, Martha had talked about finding the right place for it. She was very adamant about making sure that people could actually see it and touch it if they wanted to. Um, that it was in a safe location, but also um, kept in mind that you're you're respecting your idea of not having the front look too cluttered. So we pushed them back a little bit. Um [clears throat] on that note, I know there was discussion about the tree commission. So the tree commission got involved not because of the roots. Um I know that you guys looked it up to see what the selectman had commented on and the tree commission popped up. So we needed to talk to them because initially this project um included a dogwood tree which is like not something that we're even pushing for anymore. and one of the slept had said, "Well, this tree is really old. We might be able to switch it out and put a dogwood tree in there. We should ask the tree commission about that." So, that's not in the works right now. That was just the reason why they wanted to talk to the tree commission.

I I am on the tree commission. Yes. And uh that tree is not very old. And it also is going to grow to a This is just when you do, you're going to have to I guess make a presentation to the tree commission. Um it will the circumference when it grows is going to be substantially more than it is now. Yes. So that would affect the placement. I'm just

Absolutely. And I did talk with Joan Camila about it extensively. Um we had a conversation and it was great. Um and she said the same thing. The concern I think you all came up with was a tree root situation which yes they grow out, they don't grow down. So that's something to consider. the posts aren't very big and if it's uh a pretty established tree, I can't imagine that the roots would be disrupted, but we might not have to go down that road yet. So, [laughter]

what you came in? So, just getting the feeling from y'all from the last meeting, it sounds like these signs are big, cumbersome, and it it didn't seem like it was what you wanted here or it didn't portray the historic district commission's theme. So, um although we would love them, um I think for us the importance is having something here. We have a couple other options for those signs, but the history of this place makes a difference, I think, in in this signage. So, um I didn't give you guys a print out of this because I feel like paper is like I you guys have enough paper. So, I'm just going to show you on the computer this other option. So, these are called violet markers. Let me see if I can get this up. These are smaller. They're about this size, right? This they're 20 in wide. So it's like two other inches. This is like 18. And they're 11 in high. And they go they get posted on a rock or like a stone like something like that. And they can be and can see this

and I actually have to show it to him too. Can you see it? Okay. So this is the gold star one. Can you I don't know if he can see it. Camera's top. Yeah, I can see. Thank you.

Okay. If anybody has a computer open, you can just Google Federated Garden Club byway marker and it will come up. Um, so I thought that maybe this might be a good alternative to the signs if you're not wanting the bigger ones. Um, they are less money. They're probably less maintenance. Um, as far as putting them out front here, they can go because they're smaller sort of anywhere you we could, um, we could put them over, we have a site out front we take care of and we could put one on each side of our site. We could we could put them on rocks out in front of the tree, step back a little bit, and it wouldn't be as big. It wouldn't be in the ground. Um, we could even incorporate them into the the um, veteran um, memorial that's out there. I I can't really see it. There's too much snow out there. But um those are just some ideas and we don't have to talk about exactly where now. I guess what we just kind of want to know is is it something that you would entertain? Um and it if it's not then we're going to go out and find something that's not within the historic district commission and just put them out somewhere else. So

you mentioned your site. Uh, could you explain where that is? So, all right. If you were going to look at town hall the building, it's like right in front of Michelle's office almost. It's uh right. Is that right? And it's like that little tree and it's the circle and it's got like the flowers and stuff in it. So, it's to the right of the old lime sign. Um, oh, so it's around the sign. Oh, it's around the sign. Um, so yeah. So, that might be a good idea. Um, again, these are the smaller things that like I would obviously have to put in a new kafa. I would have to put in a lot of other things and the details would have to be worked out. But I guess I just don't want to go through all that if you're like, "Nope, we still don't want it there." So

So what is how is this one different than the first image that you showed? So this one is the blue star and what is it on? So they're on like um Right. That's on like granite. Yeah, like a the one on the one the other one is on just another stone. And so let me So here Oh, okay. So does that is that better for you? So it looks bigger, but just remember it's only this big. So can y'all see that? We could do the same small each.

Yeah, it would be the same small one. And so um just two quick things on that. So the blue star, everybody has the blue star. I've talked about this before. There's only two other cities in Connecticut that have the gold star. So, I feel like the gold star and the blue star, they're handinand. They both they both um I they just both need to be together. I think we're honoring like a huge group of veterans and deceased ones. And I think it's important especially here. The other thing I thought about which I never talked to you guys about is that there's a lot of history downstairs of um veterans and service members. And this program is very historical in a way that um like there's booklets, there's information and and initially when Martha and I had talked about this way back in like August, September, I think was of September, she was like it would be great to have like names or like information. So if someone's looking at the Blueest Star Memorial Highway and they're like, "Oh, we're driving through Wood Line. Let's check out their markers." they can actually come into town hall and read all about it. The schools come in here and they are downstairs looking at all this history. And wouldn't it be so great if they were like, "Oh gosh, I saw one of these in Virginia. I" and like they're a part of it. It's a huge system to be a part of. And I think it's a huge historical um piece of information that is interesting. Um and and that's why I feel like it really does belong here. Um and I know you guys don't like signs. I listen to all like the signs and everything and I get it. I get it. Um

lights now. Yeah, lights and signs. And like I totally understand. I just think that um again like this this should be like a museum to the history of men and women in service. This is what the town hall is for. And I think John had asked how many other town halls have these. And I kind of did a quick look and and it's like a good amount have them. And it's not it's like it's where you want to put it. Um so and you can just you're proposing not putting them over here but over there if if the that is the lower Yeah. I guess I'm not proposing anywhere yet. I just uh it's wherever

the concept of having this size sign at town hall. Yeah. In lie of the larger sign is what's being suggested. Do they constitute a tripping hazard? Um, I don't know. I mean, it could. It depends if you had a couple drinks. Want to get the risk assessment manager involved here. Every We Everything's a risk, right? Like we're So, um, but so I want to make sure that on my group if you guys have anything to inter interject and do we have any other public comment

or thoughts of or ideas? No, just to re reiterate that we are looking for uh possibilities at this point. If this isn't a possibility, then we need to move on because we did want to dedicate this during America's 250. 250. Yeah. And we're running out of time. It takes a long time. They hand make these. They're, as you said, they're expensive, etc. Yeah. And I would like to say thank club, we're all about beautifification. Yeah. We don't want to, you know, add elements that are unnecessary. We like to keep things simple and we already maintain a site view for 50 years.

Do you have a photo of I mean I know like you said there's so much snow out there now of the sign area and how much Yeah, I actually can if you give me like two seconds I can how much you know. Yeah, I don't know the dimensions of the space. Um but like let me just take a quick look. Um, uh, I also just answer the question. Well, I'd like to have all the commissioners have a conversation first or any questions. Yeah, I think we'll talk after she finish unless you have any other specific questions. Um, Marilyn, um, I was just going to add something and it was kind of important and I lost my train of thought. Um,

about the site and what it looked like. No, it was about something out front. Um, I'm sorry. Um, maybe it'll come to me. Uh, let me just see. I'm on the Duck River Garden Club of Old Limes page. Sometimes we post pictures about of our sites and stuff like that. So, I'm taking a quick look to see if there's anything out front. Um, oh, I remember what I was going to say. So in my own from my own personal stance like this is supposed to be something that everybody can admire like that's like Elanor said like it's a beautifification and I know there from the last meeting there was like like some resistance and it would really bother me to know if those signs get overridden by Martha to be like no we're putting them out there and there was some like animosity towards that like I would feel really badly about that. So, I don't want something here that people don't want, especially these. So, I just wanted I just wanted you to know that I respect your decision.

Thank you for that comment. Yeah. Um, all right. So, this is kind of hard because we have so many pictures. Um, I can email you something. It's okay. Yeah. All right. Any other So, a couple of questions. I'm I'm very interested in the alternative sites that you also considered. And second thing, and I you can respond to both, is that I did some some uh two I looked at at a couple of things. One, the list of Connecticut Garden Club sites for Blue and Gold Star memorials in Connecticut. There were no I didn't write it down, so I I don't write down,

but there were only a few, maybe three or four that were in front of town halls according to the list that I saw. So the predominant sites are not town halls in Connecticut. And the other point is that I think it was Durham is the only town that I could see that has both a blue and a gold star and they're not on the same site.

So both of those things both of those points I think are relevant to the discussion. In other words that this the signs are dispersed in the town which to me makes a certain amount of sense. Yeah. Um, and the other thing that's interesting in terms of history is that um, first of all, the Memorial Town Hall already has monuments. It has a beautiful monument outside. It has the wonderful plaques above the stairway and the lovely painting. Um, but there are other sites that don't have that kind of commemorative marker. And another argument could be made that it would be um an advantage to spread the signs in different locations to draw attention in different places to the people who have served rather than replicating what's already here at the town hall. So I'm interested I I really like the smaller signs. I'm really grateful that you that you considered that as an alternative. Sure. So I didn't I hadn't seen those until this morning. Okay. But I I'd love to hear your thoughts about other possible places and we have some thoughts too.

Sure. Um and I hopefully I can remember all the questions you asked. Um and Martha should be popping in here. Um I haven't been a chance to talk with her since Monday. I mean since Thursday or Friday, but she also has some ideas that I'm not aware of yet. They could be similar, but I don't know. So she'll come in and talk about that. So I think what I'll touch on first is the thought of spreading them out. Um, yes, I like that idea. More visibility. Um, however, one is old lime's very small and we don't have a lot of options for places to put them. Two, um, ideally the town will maintain them in cooperation with us and we don't have a lot of manpower either like to go all over. It's easier if they were kind of closer together. Um and so so that's kind of why spreading them out um is a little hard. Like right now we we we don't even have a lot of places to put the one the ones that we want. Um so now alternative sites would be the still lane site which I have a question for you all. I just thought of this on the way in. The witness stones that were put in down there, you didn't have to approve them, right? The church just put them in.

No, we approved them. You did approve them. So you do have approval on that then with the the the town green is not part of the historic district. Town green is not the town green that that the north town green is not is that so is that the one that's closer to coffees? Yeah. Okay. No it's it's where the S lane and Lime Street split. Yeah. The property right there is not within the historic district. So that's where the witness stones are. Yes. So, we approve witness stones in the district but not elsewhere. So, there are other witness stones in the district. Okay. So, across the the street

there's some witness stones there that were in the district and those were

Okay. So, you didn't have to cuz I was thinking I'm like how do they I just wanted to make sure I knew which one's the link because I know there was another one down by coffees. All right. So, for that one that would be one of the other places that we would put them. However, I do feel like it's great space. it's visible. Martha's sort of hang up with that one is just that like if people wanted to look at them and see them, it's kind of a dangerous intersection. Um there is some space, but I mean people are doing 50 miles per hour down that road. And I mean I have kids and I would never look in the car. Um but yeah, they're visible there and there's space for them, but there's a match up mashup of history there, too. um which I don't feel um if we had to put them there, could we just swallow that sort of like like it it doesn't seem like it fits, but they're up probably. Um they have to go someplace in a civic area or on like federal land or or a major not a major highway or route one is something that it can go on. So,

does it have to be on town property or state property or town property? Um, federal property.

Federal property. Yeah. So, any parks, any civic areas, they can go on. Like, for instance, Old Stabbrook, I know you all talked about that across the street. That's actually like a civic area. That's civic parking. The pickle ball courts are there. So, the select bin was like, we're putting it there. Um, there's a pollinator garden there. So, it like it's nice. There's a bench there you can sit. Um, so it's kind of neat there. Uh, it fits. It's a good spot. Um, it's got a lot of visibility. We don't really have any place like that. We talked about Halls Road a little bit, but like Hall's Road right now is so questionable. Um, and there's no I don't even know if they would consider um Halls Road to be a state road or um, you know,

because it's really Route One that's sort of the driving factor there. So, who knows what's going to happen with Hall's Road. So, it's questionable. There is the um over on 156 where the shore road is where we go back to the beaches. There's that like random highway. Um and it's just so desolate there. It's bizarre. Like honestly, like I don't know. And it just seems very sketchy to me. And I What are you describing? I'm not sure what you're describing. Sure. So, um, like if you're heading from Old Lime to Niantic 156 and you're going, um, past, you all might know better,

White Sands. Is that um, it used to be like a picnic area. Yeah, it's like a highway rest area. Shore Road Rest it's called, right? Yeah. And I just like I don't know what's going on with that. I mean, that's they could probably go there. I'd have to talk to the state, but that's probably one of the places it could go. Um, uh, Leslie talked about like the beach area, the beaches, um, down by like Harford Avenue and stuff like that. Visibility down there, but there's nothing like there's nothing it can go on really except if it went on 156 if it went on that road somewhere. Um, what about near the transit stop where that lovely rock is? Have you thought about that? The transit stop? Oh, not sure. What do you call it? But

you put in a lovely rock there last year or Yeah, I think it was last year. Is that in like stealth lime or something? No, it's in it's where police department I think. Right. Is that where it is? Just before the police station on the left? Yeah. I'd have to look at that. Is that Is that um Is that owned by the town? Like is it the town's property? So the town put the rock in. Okay. I Yeah, I know. I'd have to look at that. Um I don't know. Did you guys have any other thoughts of where it could go? No, we understand where that is. That it's a possibility. Would be a possibility.

And someone else suggested the um the emer the new emergency center. Well, it's not new, but the fire firehouse on uh in Razville north of Coffees. And that would be that would be another possibility. There's a very strong historic connection between the old line fire department and the memorial town hall. You probably know that the same person who dedicated the town hall is the one who established the fire department and all the veterans who came back from World War I and World War II, many of them joined the old line fire department. So they're very strong veterans connection. So that would give historical meaning to that and it's also I think on an appropriate byway. And what about one last suggestion that I have two more actually. One is the post office because whatever happens to Hall's Road, the post office is not going to be affected most likely. I mean it's very high

traffic and it's very visible and people could walk up and touch it and if you you know or see the the lower one could go the smaller one could go near the entrance. It would seem to me to be appropriate and visible. And the other thing I wondered about is your site um on next to the blue building as they call it on the corner of Halls Road. Oh, right. And Neck Road where you have a little garden club, a nice little garden club site. You plant flowers there, right? It says it says Duck It says Duck River Garden Club. I think Yeah. And that So that would Yeah. So everybody who comes to town would see it if it

can get out and touch it. It's not safe. Yeah, it's been a we need safety first obviously. Sure. But maybe there's not a large number of people who want to touch it. I mean, looking at it and recognizing it is probably the the highest priority. Well, it it would be associated with the blue star highway at that location. That's right. That would be another historic reason. 194 the new emergency management center. Right. the new emergency center right by Grassy Hill. Oh, okay. Okay, great. Yeah. All right. Thank you. I was just trying to envision it.

And and one more garden club site is at the intersection of McCertie Road and the Shore Road. That's another People sites. Exit 70 last year got hit and we had to replace all that. someone hit it and then also heard someone drunk. It was just an idea. I didn't realize it. I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, there's a few places where it's it's a little dangerous. Um if it does work out at home, is there a place that you

We need to discuss. We need to have a conversation. So, so I think at this point, um, there's a CFA right now that's submitted for the two signs at this location. And I think at this point it it would be something that you might want to resend

uh with the idea that one of the scenarios that have been discussed here this morning would be a new CFA. And it it could be possibly what you're presenting here and this is something for the commission to discuss or it might be another location. But the CFA that's before before us right now. Um I would wonder if that would be something you consider to withdraw or or we would have to vote on that. I think we have to vote today on that. Correct Martha? So we would have to vote on that CFA today. Okay. If if you withdrew it and then we could have a discussion and then enter a new CFA, then we have more time,

okay, to to work it through. But my guess is you're trying to get the feel for what we are going to say about that alternative because none of the other sites you have to come to us. So yeah. So we do that. Maybe just let her know what we think or do we do. You want to we want her to submit a new CFA. Well, I think that would have to be uh a new CFA, I believe. I guess the I'm happy to resubmit another one. Like whatever the work has to get done, I can do. John, do you do you feel like that's the best co-chair?

Well, we we we do have another another uh C C of A, excuse me. We would have to have another C of A. Yes. For different different locations and different signs. U right if if the proposal is to place them in the historic district. David David's exactly right. Of course, if they're uh the other locations that have been mentioned uh are are not in the historic district. Uh right.

I I don't I don't know. It's up to you Russ. chairing whether you want to entertain general comments so that that um there there's some uh feedback at le even preliminary about the feasibility of from our perspective of putting the the new signs at the town hall. Well, so if we proceeded with comments on the current CFA, that's one thing. It's another to resend the CFA and then have general comments, right? And well, I mean, it's all it I if you're I don't I don't know. I

Okay, we could I I think I think in a public hearing about the signs, we we would be allowed to follow our opinion about other other possibilities. Okay. Your preference would be to have them in front of the town hall. I Yeah, I think that historical connection and I do understand that there's a her connection at the fire department. I'm happy to look at that, too. But yes, I I think it would be lovely here and and you don't want to spend a whole lot of time if you're not going to have it approved here. So,

Right. Right. All right. So, so, so I think what I'd like to do then for John's comment, let's proceed to general discussion and then um so amongst the commissioners. Yeah. Also, I can um I wasn't able to do it because of the snow, but I'm happy to mark up a idea of what it would look like along the front the trees and it like with ChachiBT how I did the picture so you can visualize it a little bit better. um and send that to you through email if that's helpful for your next meeting. Yeah, that could be part of the new CFAs. Yes. CS. Okay. So, w with all this in mind.

Okay. Martha's coming down too.

With all this in mind, uh comments on on how we'd like to proceed and thoughts. I I think the suggestion I think that that that most of the commission although we haven't voted and we could vote probably are not in favor of the larger signs next to the tree which is what your current CFA requests. So therefore it seems to me a good suggestion that you withdraw that CFA or we can vote on it as you I think it my guess is that we would probably not approve it. Okay. The exist the current CFA. But we're very respectful of your at least I am I'll speak for myself very respectful of your idea of a smaller sign mounted on a rock in a different location which is certainly you know we still haven't really discussed that. I think it's a it's it's a very interesting suggestion.

Okay. I think Russ was asking us to discuss that that now and then with the understanding that you're going to resend. Yeah. I'll resend and I'll then put another kafa through with pictures, details, all the things that are needed for that. And if we can't discuss,

I think that's great. And then in the next meeting, maybe we can discuss some of the alternative locations because I didn't know the danger of the, you know, McCertie road intersection. I wasn't I wasn't aware of that, but had been a problem. We could discuss that and we could also discuss the smaller signs. Well, I think I think the question is is that that she's asking is should she come back with a new CFA with the town hall submission or should is that something that we're not wanting that we would not entertain necessarily or that we feel like it wouldn't be approved and then she would begin to consider other locations. So, I think that's the the the question that we're having asked without a vote. Is it something that the commissioners would

be willing to entertain? Not saying that you have to vote to approve because you haven't seen it yet, but is it something that we should um that we would advise that you would submit a new Ca?

Hate to put everybody on the spot, but um it's just time it's it's it's timesensitive in a way too. I like the idea of the smaller ones on the rock, but I really like the idea of the new emergency management center bringing focus to that. That was a town vote. I believe there was a town vote for that. Um, it's a brand new building. I think it has a flag pole. Um, it's outside of the district. I I think that's a that's my I think that's a very I didn't even think of that. I think it's a very good location. It's a new building in town. It's a beautiful new building. Everybody voted on it and you know paid for it kind of thing. So I think myself that I like that location. Okay.

My my only comment is uh well two comments. I I I I can't offer an opinion on the town hall uh new location with the new size signs until I see it. I'm I just need to see something that that puts it all together. I I do uh in a sense second Deb's comment. I may have this wrong, but one thing for you to consider is is uh of the various alternative spots we've talked about, what's going to maximize the visibility? I mean, not a ton of people come into the town hall. Uh yeah, they drive down Lime Street, but if especially if if there's a uh a location along a road that gets traffic or you have a spot where um people are going in or out of a of a of a building like the post office, you're going to get more visibility for for the

uh commemoration. May say something. This sign where our site is has found it is one of the most photographed locations in Oine. It does get foot traffic and when people do come to Oine they like to take a picture in front of that sign. So that would get good visibility. The town hall sign right here. The town Yes. The old M historic marker. Yes.

And I would just have to disagree, John. We have between 50 and 60 people that walk through town hall every single day. And when the nice weather, first of all, walking by town hall, there must be 50 to 60 people who just walk Lime Street every day, even with the snow and the cold. Um, and I can see it through my wind my window. Um, during the summer, it's even more so. And there, you would not believe the number of people who take the historic districts walking tour brochure from here. The tourists that come, they do that. They do the um witness stones. They're up and down Lime Street and they're stopping and they read the signs everywhere along the We've had people come in to look at the memorials on the walls. Um we're very visible here in town blind on life street.

Martha you had I think you had told Leslie that you had some ideas of alternative places and that's sort of what we're kind of talking I think it needs to go back go back to the port of selectment in two weeks. Okay. If you're going to do an alternate if you're doing an alternate sign or an alternate site um we just need to discuss it further. I'm not gonna make a recommendation this point in time. Okay. Okay. So, and I missed part of this. So, yeah. Sorry.

So, I think from you guys is what like I appreciate like the thought about what else here, what else here. there's some ideas that we didn't think about and I feel like for us it's like we are able to sort of figure that out in a way with Martha and the selectman because then we would be sort of not having to have you guys involved in it which um so I think I would resend the initial application maybe at the next meeting when you have some more visuals and some more thought about it you can say yay or nay but I think the next meeting would be one where we would really need to know like can we do this or not vote at that point

right and in the interim we would also be kind of working towards some other ideas um so you are going to submit a new survey with the alternate newer yes I might even be able to get you a mockup of one how fun would that be like a cardboard piece that you can just you know what I mean carry a rocket oh I could I mean if that's what I need to do on it would be helpful to kind of have a representation of the sign with the garden. Absolutely. Kind all the size and scale. So,

right. And I'll do my best to get that done. Um hopefully the snow will melt. If it doesn't, I can find another picture to mark that up. Um and sort of see what we can come up with. And just so you know, it's not going to look exactly the way the picture is because it is chachy pt. So, um, but yeah, I just would hope maybe when we come back, um, if I give you fair enough notice, like I can even get the coffin to you earlier. I realize that you guys are volunteers and this is like on your own time that you can just be able to say to us yes or no so that we can move on. I think we would appreciate that if that's a possibility. I think it really has to be discussed at a at a meeting because people make a decision based on the input at the time. So, um I would love to be able to give you a yes or no without the full commission, but I don't think that's

Oh, not right now. No, no, I'm saying even now the next meeting. Okay. I think we need to receive the materials. Yeah. as a new CFA and then if if you like now you have the option to not choose this location but if you're wanting to choose the town hall um with the new proposed sign we need a new C we'd have to discuss it and review it at that point in time. Okay at the next meeting. Okay. And then at that next meeting so where does the public comment fall into all this? Because I know that typically if you're going to approve or disapprove you have to have a public comment. So is that going to like that? That's what we're just we were just having. So it would be part of this um part of the application. Yeah. Right. So

So there's a notice. So there's a notice of the public. No, there's a notice of this of the agenda. Yeah. And then as we're discussing this, that would be the public comment. Okay. So So next week would be the I mean next month it would be the public comment. Okay. That's just I just wanted to I didn't know if it would have to go another month for public comment. No. No. No. No.

Okay. Okay. We we should we should uh make sure you're aware of the deadline for submitting the CFA in timely fashion because uh a new public hearing requires legal advertisement and Martha can fill you in on the sort of uh drop dead date for getting the CFA submitted so that we have time to advertise it before the next meeting. So, I'm actually not going to be able to submit it until I get Martha's signature on it, which is going to be at the next board of selectment meeting. And I don't know when that is. I think it's next Monday. I think she said two weeks. Two weeks. So, it before. So, two weeks from now.

Yeah. Is when I get work with that. Okay. Okay. So, so I guess you're officially rescending. Yes, I will officially rescend to however I need to do that. I think that's all you need to do. Okay. Do you guys have anything else more? anything. Okay. Thank you for Thank you guys. I appreciate it. Yeah, for sure. Thanks. Okay. Good luck with the lights. So, it's uh 100 Lime Street. I think they said that they're not going to make it. They can't They can't make it. Yeah. So, so we should we can continue the public hearing. Let's continue the hearing. Yeah.

I I do have I do have a little feedback from Eric Knap. I don't know if you want me to relay that now. So, uh or or just pass it on separately to Alicia before the next uh Let's do it separately, Don. Yeah, let's do it separately. Yeah, let's move on to 84 Lime Street. Yeah, because we're running behind a little bit if that's okay. So, 84 Lime Street, Lime Academy of Fine Arts dumpster. Morning.

Morning. How are we doing? Good. Good. I'm Wendy Barry and the managing director. I'm David, facilities manager. Great. Good to see you. So, um maybe you could just describe uh to the commission uh we we received the CFA, but maybe describe what uh what you're proposing.

Yeah, sure. Just really quick backstory. We currently have on the other side of campus um well out of the historic district uh zone uh dumpster and our uh recycling and with a lot of the exciting growth we've had uh students we now need some uh waste management on the other side of campus. Um it's been requested that it is a small unit uh not like the main one that we use for all of our main garbage. This would be specific to the sculpture program that's over there. And there is some drawing as well. Uh painting and drawing. So uh I did attach uh you guys looks like everyone has I did attach just kind of a general idea of this two-yard dumpster roughly two-year dumpster size uh that we're looking at and the location. Um what we is up in the air is and open to interpretation uh is what we would use to shield cover. uh screen that dumpster.

It's right in front of the transformer. Yeah, I was gonna ask that question. Can Can you place the dumpster right in front of the transformer? Yeah, I asked our I asked our electrician and he said it was okay as long as it was like 3 feet 3T. So, basically the bicycle uh stand would be removed. It would be 3 feet away from the transformer kind of in that little pad area right there. Yeah, there's there's a potential that yeah, maybe a part of the curb would have to come out or something, but I see. Um, but in that area, yeah.

And and how would you propose to screen it um if if you [clears throat] were to screen the dumpster because this does this this is visible from from Lime Street. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's visible on the way into campus. So, we we obviously want it to be pretty as well, right?

Yeah. Yeah. The idea was to put plantings. Um, we don't have a lot of fences or we don't really have any fences or those kind of screenings like white or wood uh fencing anywhere. So, I was hesitant to go that route because then you're just putting a bigger box on top of a box. It's making something that's ugly even larger. Open to that if that's the that's the answer. Um, so the screening with some kind of plantings was the idea. Uh, it's a little difficult. I suppose I've walked it. There is a few areas that um it would not be 100% covered by plantings um no matter where you walk. But it's it's again that's why kind of we're here to

How would you how would you I'm I'm just looking because this is is is this gravel or paved? It's paved. So I guess the question is I'm trying to envision where would the plantings go? Yes. So the photo because is this a pad or is that just a curb that's white? Just a curb. Yeah. Okay. So could it go beyond the curve?

Absolutely. Absolutely. So the [clears throat] idea was and you guys don't have color. Uh this this photo here my excellent art skills. So, I drew in some plantings here with the red being the dumpster. So, if it meant the dumpster had to be recessed back past that curb, cut another three feet in order to have more plantings, give more screening, great. We'll do that. And then they could still access it without Yeah. Yeah. It just just showing the area, whatever we needed to do to screen, if we had to move back another few feet, whatever it was. Be nice to screen the transformer, too. Yeah. just already got the ice over there.

So this area that juts out, you know, that's the opportunity to plant stuff, right? And how long do you think that that area is? It's not. It's four feet or something like that. It's not a lot. So the the question would be if Yeah, we might have to go back, you know. So which is fine. Does it hurt the tree to go? How close is that tree to It's actually No, that should be fine. Yeah, we should be okay there. And it's flat there. It kind of looks like it slopes up, but that's flat, right? That's behind it. Okay. Yeah, it's a little bit flat there. It does slope up pretty quick, but yeah, there is some room there. But

so it's three feet deep, six feet wide. It looks like you might have to to get a three foot distance from the transformer and the sixoot dimension, you might have to take some of that curve out anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To pull it towards Lime Street a little. Yes. Yep. I kind of think that's probably what Yeah, that was the thought. And could you explain just to help us visualize? You said the plantings would not cover all of it. Could you explain how much of it the plantings would cover?

So, I think pushing it back if we had to remove the rear curb cut and push the the dumpster back. It would give us more room to have more plantings on the street side, right? So it would that would probably cover all most of all of it. I would think from from Lime Street it's going to cover the majority of it. It's as you start to enter campus that you just can't get around that that space there. So that's the part he's talking about that we wouldn't be able to cover that in front of it facing the interior sidewalks. So

I would imagine if you're in the front yard of Sill House on property looking, there might be a case where there would be some visual if you were looking for it, but from the street the goal would be So would the plantings go I I'm still not clear where the plantings would go. They would go on the street side. I mean the the Lime Street facing side, but what about the what about the sides? The It would only be the Lime the street side. So this is standing. So Lime Street is over here. Okay. And so this is a jut out. You can see this is you said about four feet. So plantings would go here. And if we push this back further, then you'd be able to cover more from Lime Street. But as you're standing here inside of campus, you're well within campus. You'd still be able to see it.

I see. So only one side of it would need it pushed back. If it was pushed back, then we can do a little bit longer. So this is about four four feet right now. That c that kind of cut that comes out. So this goes like this and then over. So there's space there to automatically put some linings this way, some plantings this way. But if we go further back, you'll have a longer fence for that in terms of plantings, right? But you'll never get anything obviously right in front of you. And that's the inside of campus. So right now, you're literally on the main entrance walkway. You're almost perpendicular to Lime Street there.

In order to shield it from campus, you would have to put almost like a a gate. It would have to be an enclosure. I guess the question is, is an enclosure necessary or do we feel like um a screening with vegetation is sufficient would be the I I have a question. [clears throat] Yes. When was the CFA for the transformer approved? No idea. When the place was built,

so it's in the 80s that that building was built. That actually is probably going off of what's in the building next to it. That's the main line coming in. So yeah, that would probably be original 80 late mid 80s. Well, that's after the historic district was was was created. So I think we should consider the the package of both of them. If there is no C of A for the transformer, we need to to talk about that as well.

Yeah, I think I think you're right, John. I think the the screening ideally whe whether it's an enclosure or a vegetation should should attempt to screen the dumpster and the transformer. You're not going to probably relocate the transformer. Not going to happen. Not going to happen. [laughter] But we can certainly plant uh having plantings that are taller and wider to make it so that you can screen as much as possible from Lime Street because the transformer appears to be uh about five or six feet where the dumpster is three feet tall. In other words, the the transformer is taller.

It is. Yeah. Yeah. So if theoretically you could screen the dumpster with some object that's three to four feet tall, but then you're missing the transformer. So the question is, do we do we go ahead and try to screen the transform, too? And that would be like a a gate or something right. It's either a structure or it's it's or or it's vegetation. I'm just not sure how close we can plant things to the transformer. I I know you Yeah. Really? Yeah. It's not going to be an easy um

No, I think the screen for the dumpster would have to be the the same screen. It's like one screen that screening right Lime Street uh site to the dumpster and the transform. It's

kind of how I see it. I think that's possible to do plantings from the lime street. So per so you know uh down this whole line here that could be high enough uh and wide enough to cover up both without doing a gate. I do worry about having a gate there meaning just it just is for the company to come in once we can pick up for the students who have to put things in there all the time. Uh that would not be a preference of ours but I think we can cover it sufficiently from Lime Street. it just won't be covered from the interior side

and it's not I mean often we get questions about utility equipment in front of historic structures and um the screening would be very limited in screening the the structure behind and because both both structures are in the district Um, so it's something for the commission to think about. I mean, I it seems to me that it's not uh it's not significantly impacting views to the uh to the building that's behind here, whether you want that to happen or not. And I'm just talking about precedent. We've had other situations where we've had utility equipment right at the front and we wouldn't want to put a tall screen because it's not only screening the utility equipment but also screening the historic

the actual Yeah. Sure. Sure. Well, I don't know. I mean, so it's I don't know that we'd mind covering up more of the It's a 1980s so I don't you it's not like the Sill House, right? But um I said [laughter] whether or not they needed that or not. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, you know, there's mid-century modern, now there's 1980. Sure. Sure. Sure.

Yeah. I guess the thought was that if the plantings that they would do a nicer job that I think a fence there is going to not that I I'm not the only reason I'm opposed to it is it's just actually drawing more attention to the dumpster by showing a structure that we don't that doesn't coincide with anything else on campus because we don't have any other gates or fencing white or wood. Mhm. Um, so it would just kind of look like this big square. That was kind of awkward. Um, [clears throat] if that's what needs to happen, I mean, it's we need to cover it. That's fine.

We ask you to come back and with an actual depiction of the screening that you're going to use. I think we determined you have to have some screening. You're going to get that. Um, do we want more? Well, I I' I'd ask the commissioners if they they feel like how you feel at this point. The Yeah, we don't have a motion yet.

Well, I think I I respect your your suggestion that um vegetation would be more consistent with the rest of the the rest of the site. Um and that's certainly an important consideration. It's hard for me to still maybe we should talk about how adequate the planting would be to conceal the if we decide if we all think that the planting is the is this the first choice if it can do the job maybe we need to discuss whether the planting could really do the job what would the planting be you know where would it you showed me sort of where it would go but perhaps we could have a drawing with the the the location of the dumpster if it were moved back if the curb will move back and if it were moved back and where the plantings would I mean, I'm sure you'd look for evergreen plantings because you wouldn't want it to be visible in the winter. So,

right. So, we could do um an image from the street so that you're seeing that way rather than inside campus. Yeah. Yeah. So, we'll do that. That's easy enough for us to do. So, we'll come back with that. Does everybody feel like a vegetative approach is more appropriate than a structure? Yes. Okay. So if you could I think that's that's the request and and uh we'll carry the motion to the next meeting and if you can bring that will the can the motion be amended without refiling to cover also approval of the transformer.

I mean that's a big mechanical we we are required to approve mechanicals. It apparently has never been approved. Yeah. Well, may well or maybe Yeah, just add that that this is a dumpster and transformer uh screen. That's they're requesting uh they're not they're not requesting approval to place the transformer there, I guess. Or maybe they are. Well, they if it hasn't been approved, we should have something on record showing that it's record. Yeah. You were asking if we could just make an amendment right now or ask them to amend it.

And I don't know the answer. I don't know the answer to that. Whether that's sufficiently like the the dumpster or do we have to have a new CFA that includes both of them and readvertise. I I I I think I I think maybe right on the CFA. I think maybe I think when we when we vote on it When we when we make the motion, John, can a can a commissioner not make a motion to state that the screening for the dumpster will be sized and appropriate to screen the transformer as well?

Yeah. But my question is, do we approve the transformer? How how can you approve the transformer? Well, I just had a suggestion. What do you I would I would recommend just adding the transformer to your CFA. Are we are we are we comfortable that the legal advertisement uh is it close enough so that it covers both? I mean we can't if if somebody comes in with a C of A for a new sign and then they come in and say and we also want to have a fence. We can't say, "Oh, let's just add the fence because it hasn't been advertised." Yeah.

But but John, we don't know that the transformer wasn't approved as part of the overall campus um building when the building was built and then we're talking about a CFA for one screen that is going to happen to also screen the

So I'm comfortable. I guess I guess I would be more comfortable if we have some way to go back and check whether it in fact the transformer in fact was approved. If it if it was not, I would be more comfortable having a CFA that approves both the dumpster and the transformer and the screening on the condition that there's some screening.

Right. Yeah. I if if the plot plan shows the transformer, which I'm sure what was submitted to town hall at the time would have included infrastructure. Um, and maybe we could verify that then then that would have been approved at that point in time. It would have been approved. It certainly would have been approved by by by zoning, but I don't know about I'm sure this um I mean we certainly can go back and check we certainly can go back and check the the HDC records. Yes.

Can one amend Well, I guess that's the very question. You can't amend your CFA as you understand it, John, to just say, "Okay, we're doing this one and we're we'd like to Well, because the I don't know the answer. I don't know the answer, David. It's a it's a good it's a good point you rais. I think in general, you can't have come in with one CFA for one thing and then say, "Oh, now we want to add haven't advertised it." But maybe this is close enough so that we can just amend it. I don't I don't know the answer to that. Like I said, they're just seeking one screening which just happens to cover both. [laughter] Yeah.

But they're just trying to get these people out of here. We send them home. Do we make them get a CFA? Just go ahead do a new CFA to cover our bases that says transformer and dumpster. Can we if we're going to keep this going then why wouldn't we just be able to provide additional information that shows the screening you know an illustration from the street that then would recognize would show that that covers it would happen say that's the very issue by the way it happens to cover look at that you see this and now you can't see either now I now okay

that's that's what we're trying to decide here That's why my point is different. If if if the transformer itself has never been approved, we need to approve the transformer.

Yeah. But I don't know. So what is the way to resolve this for now? Because we are behind schedule. Well, no, I would say I would say uh we we do some homework and maybe Martha can find out what was in fact approved in in 1980 and if a transformer was never approved, then file another CFA for that. Come in. I mean, there's no there's no fee. It's for you because you're a nonprofit. And then at the next meeting, we can approve the transformer and the dumpster and the screening.

I John, I think it should be a part of the motion by whoever makes the motion in the next meeting that the screening will shield the the dumpster and the transformer. Uh I I would feel certain that when when this project was built, the historic district commission would have reviewed the entire project and this infrastructure would have been a part of that. Now we can check our records to see that it to see if it was actually on the drawings. Uh, I can't imagine that it's not, but I think it's um having having

it's not like it's not like they're adding it's not like the transformer hasn't been here for 30 years and they're adding this new part of the construction. This is all hinging on a hypothetical. What if the the I mean, we're going into this long discussion based on a total conjecture. Maybe this wasn't approved 30 years ago, but I don't think we really need to go into that. Let's just move forward with what we're doing right now and get this dumpster approved and have the in the uh the screening and we'll do we'll do our homework and double check. I think we're all united on that, right? I will say and I'm going to 50 years. Yeah, 50 years. Thank you.

I appreciate Yeah, I appreciate I was on the same page. I saw where you guys were going. I appreciate it. The one cav one problem I I think uh with adding the utility is the dumpster is movable to accommodate our needs for screening. Uh the utility is really not.

So if we put up 15 trees and we accomp and move around the curb cutting and move the dumpster and we have this great solution for that. I don't know. I have to be completely honest. I don't know that we're able to accomplish that uh with the utility as well with everything that was just said. Again, I appreciate where we went, but I don't know now adding that that that kind of screening will then you have to do the cut of the pavement and all of that in front of it. You're saying correct. And and the whole thing out, right? And then plantings, you're not allowed to plant like next to the utility. No, I think it's one it's one screen of vegetation. That's the that's

blocking both is the goal, right? Okay. So, high enough and wide enough. The size of the specimens that you use will We'll give it a whirl. Yeah. Give it a shot. The density and um uh evergreen. Evergreen. Yes. We're certainly trying to accomplish the same. We're on our end, too. Yeah. Okay. So, we'll get you that drawing. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. You find it helpful? Do you want some color? Yeah. Yeah. There's a few sets of stuff. The color helps help me at least.

Thanks for the time. ready to be filmed. Oh, you talked about my idea of having the students paint the tunnel, the highway tunnel. They would love it. Yeah. Anybody want to see? We we need to think about maybe approaching the the uh the the highway department, but when it's such a dark area of town when you walk through and then it could be an art project. I don't know. can kind of put some cohesiveness with the art association. It's an idea. It's just an idea. Happy to talk [laughter] about it. We're thinking about planters perhaps on the outside on each side.

Also, you want graffiti artist graffiti artist. Uh, okay. Uh, public hearing 84 Lime Street. That was actually [clears throat] Oh. Oh, yep. We're done. Oh, that's Oh, we're done. Yeah. of and this is just the 46 Lime Street walkway discussion. Oh yeah, the 46 Lime Street walkway. Yeah. So I have those things to

Is that right across the street? Is this a CFA? That's Barbara Tras. Oh yeah, where Barbara Tras just beyond the driveway. Martha, this did not come in time for this meeting, right? So, we're not actually No, there's no public hearing. It's just a preliminary discussion. Preliminary discussion. Yeah. Right here. Thank

I think it it it could be useful for uh people at this discussion to um note places where there were where the commission would want some additional information and then we could provide feedback to the property owner. I I think there's a notation saying the uh company that's planning to do this work could come in with more particular designs. Um, I mean, I certainly would want um to know, especially about the driveway, whether the proposed asphalt is is uh replacing a nonassphalt driveway or or not. If it's if it's just redoing an existing

asphalt driveway, then it's kind of grandfathered grandfathered in. But um I mean there's that and then just in general you you know the specifics we usually ask for about dimensions and width and type of stone and all of that. So they're they're doing a sidewalk changing it to blue stone. Uh there's a propane tank and is there is there a distance requirement of of a propane tank from a window or siding?

5T some something like that. Yeah. So we need to understand we need the the the dimension of the propane tank and its actual sighting that meets the code requirement and also Russ whether it could be moved further back. Does the propane tank tank have to be as close to Lime Street or could it be moved back to the corner beside the driveway and whoever is doing the propane they will be working within the guidelines. So, right, but we need to understand its location relative to to screening, right? But I agree, Carolyn. Could it does it need Maybe it could even go behind the hill right there. Yeah, it's right here on that side. Okay. Yeah.

This house right here. Yeah. And then the asphalt driveway, is it existing? And then uh this garage. I think that's it, right? What is the driveway? That asphalt that is is that gravel now to that garage. I don't know. We need to understand. There's nothing. It's just grass. But you can't see it. There's no snow. I know. Yeah, it's snowing over right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's no There's no driveway. No, that go There's no driveway part in across the back of the house. Oh, so this is actually a new cut. Yes, there's the asphalt going down the side. If you look at the picture,

this and hardly goes across because there's a little garage right in the back built into the hill. Why would they want to make it as I I think I think we pretty consistently refuse to approve new asphalt driveways and that should be communicated. If if if if it's not a repair of an existing asphalt driveway that's grandfathered in, I for one would have problems with asphalt, but now does the can you see it from Lime Street rule take effect because it's down the hill behind the house? I think you probably would. You can see it from a public place which is town hall.

Ah, very good. Right. And the parking lot in the town hall. mountain stand back there. Yeah. Contemplate Spears building. Okay. That's important. So, if we're going to turn down the asphalt, we ought to let them know. They they they do say replace greenery and shrubs. Do we have any other landscape requirements in front of the house? Not

well we we we really we really I don't think um act specifically on general landscaping. Our concern with with shrubbery is if it's if if there's a need to screen some mechanicals or or some other structure. Okay. But we we haven't been in the business of rendering opinions on what particular plants someone can have. My only thought was, did we do we ever consider like what if somebody wanted to completely screen the front of a historic structure? It's a good question.

I mean, when I moved into my house, you couldn't see the house from the road. We actually removed the the view bushes were so tall people didn't realize there was a house there. So, I don't know. Is that something? Good question. We should consider. We should in our guidelines maybe should consider that just related to being able to see the historic structure. I don't it's something to think about. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point, Russ. Okay. Well, any other requests, Martha? You take okay on the blue stone driveway just to get I mean the blue stone walkway just to give them you know.

Yeah. We need specific dimensions and things like that. kind of a sample or an image of Yeah. And also is is there a are there sta stairs or steps into the house? There's a couple [snorts] of steps. Yeah. And is that going to be replaced as part of the the because there's a screen right there. Well, right. So, in other words, does this does this blue stone

is there anything at the transition between the blue stone and the and the screen porch occurring. Any details on that? And is there any any lighting or illumination associated with the new walkway? I expect not. Okay. All right. Proposed zoning regulations. John, that's you. [clears throat]

Um yeah, and thanks thanks for those of you who made comments. This is this is a re a reworking in the form of a proposed memo to to the zoning commission. It focuses on uh issues that the HTC is concerned about. I I think everything directly or indirectly relates to historic structures. um [snorts] that I left out a couple things that were on the table with the last draft because I discovered I thought for example that the the zoning regulations had eliminated the um provision for a wayfairing sign at the end of the 95 exit ramp. They just moved it to another place. I mean, we could go on and on, but I I don't for the most part I I I think uh we don't we don't need to nitpick about that current language. They're not changing it. If if if and when there is a proposal for a wavefaring sign, um we can we can weigh in on it. So, um you know, real quick quickly the the boldface headings um highlight the um the various topics. Uh the under purposes uh the thought is that they could be more specific in picking up on language from the POC about the importance of historic preservation.

Um there is no definition of historic district in the zoning rags even though the term is used and the definition of historic structure which um Russ looked at carefully and thought was very appropriate as it's written only applies to one section of the zoning rags and not throughout the zoning rags. Um it gets into a little bit of the weeds about recognition of HDC authority. Uh the the current um provision recognizing HDC authority is this is the first bullet point should be amended. But that section because of those technical reasons I think. But the bigger point is that the recognition of HDC authority right now only exists in the section about signage. And my thought was that it would be helpful to a reader to have that appear generally uh re rephrased. So it generally applies to to structures um of all types, not just signs. Um on the gateway conservation zone, I I wrote Suzanne Thompson to to see if there she had any other specific ideas about structures in the Gateway Conservation Zone, which overlaps the historic district. I have not heard back. Um, I think the bullet points there just point out that um, their definition of the gateway conservation zone in the Connecticut River is a bit muddled and we would want

a clear def a clear understanding that the definition of the gateway conservation zone includes the whole conservation zone, not just the river. um illumination. I'll leave to to Russ to explain. I think he he he did uh kind of highlight earlier that uh one concern is with properties outside the historic district that um shine light into the district. And um the last item is really kind of kind of a detail, but they talked specifically about historic preservation in special permits, and I thought that that language could be could be strengthened.

The the one comment on illumination that I want everybody to be aware of is that zoning is also looking at a phase two to this zoning update. And part of that there is a old line proposed blight ordinance. And within that ordinance they have added um illumination language that is much more stringent. Uh and not only about the uh um color temperature and shielding, but actually a light level at the property line. Just like you take a sound level measurement

at at a property line, there is a limit to the light level and it's like one candle, one foot candle or something like that. So that if you have a neighbor, just like we heard, if you have a neighbor that's receiving light, you could actually measure the amount of light that you're receiving. that's not in the in the current proposal, but it's something that as we're looking at our lighting or or requirements, we might want to consider. And the request here is to um to to to support that and then also use language similar to language about the gateway commission about light bleed to the to the rivers. So [snorts] again, outside the district coming into the district and that that's the elimination section.

Would the property have to be deemed blighted in order for them to invoke those illumination? Well, see, that's that's the question. Uh I I'm not sure their purpose of the uh the the illumination in the blight ordinance and whether or not that lighting illumination language is in general for the zoning, but it's not in this phase one. So, um, I just want I thought we should support that because it's it's the kind of language that we're talking about and it's being raised right here. So, I think it's a hot topic. Yeah.

Any any comments or questions or changes on this for John and Russ and myself? Well, thank you for doing that work here. I thought bringing up the uh the point about the uh the rail railroad and uh impact potential impact on the historic district was a a good strong point there. Yeah.

Why don't we let um when when did we send this out to the commission and when does it need to go into the zoning? What's the drop dead date to issue this? Well, I think it just has to be um um before their meeting, but David made a good point earlier that it it probably would be it probably would get attention if it's sent earlier rather than later.

Uh we'd want to get it there in time for people to read and digest. Uh the other question is whether uh David or someone else wants to uh appear at the meeting and just highlight or emphasize a a few points from from this so that our main points at least appear in the public record and are not just conveyed in a document that the zoning commission has but would not be part of the the minutes. Right. The zoning meeting is the 9th. Correct. Is what? Correct. Next. Next week. Next week. Ninth. Yeah. Yeah. You want

Well, I'm going to be there for uh a presentation about the cemetery. Um Carolyn's going to be there as well. Time is on the 9th. Yeah. Yeah.

6:30. So may maybe it would be good to give everybody uh just a day or two if folks haven't looked at this to to to look at it and see if there's any other adjustments and then John a summary like bullet points for whoever's presenting whether it's uh David myself Carolyn head whoever's presenting that that kind of a bullet point summary and maybe it's just going through the the different items but I think that's that would be helpful.

Um I can can can do that. Um if you all could um have have any other technical corrections. I've already spotted one minor grammatical thing to to to fix. But um I I'm I'm hoping today we can can say that these these comments represent the view of the full commission. I think that carries more more weight than it just being Well, I mean we I think we need we need to have the this be a commission um a commission statement.

How do you want that to happen, John? Do you want a motion or just I I think a motion I think a motion would be appropriate that that the commission uh approves um comments about the proposed zoning regulations uh subject to technical corrections or something like that or just proves it. I I don't know how you'd phrase it.

Martha, did you get it? because it'd be easier than my trying to restate it, but I'll make I'd like to make the motion. John, you can provide the exact language. I'd like to make the motion that you in accordance with the language that you just provided. That's a good way to do it. Yes. In accordance with I think would accommodate any minor technical changes. Don't change the meaning. Do we have a second? Is that second? Any discussion? Okay. Uh, all in favor?

I I so All so it's approved. And then John, I think a summary like just a bullet point summary of the key points that somebody's speaking uh would be helpful and and it may be that I I don't know. I need to look at my schedule so I can attend. But if not, well, you'll be Yeah. Then David can do it.

All right. Uh secretar's report. Arthur. Um yes. So we have 16, we're monitoring 16 situations in the historic district. Um the main one there's there's a there's a list which I put in the minutes.

Um I don't think I need to go through and read everything on the list. Um but we are um focused right now on 36 Lime Street. the uh the railings by the front door, the CFA for that has expired. Those were approved as temporary. Um and we are we have sent emails and um a letter to uh Joselyn Zallinger asking her to please remove them or else apply to have them um approved again. Um and Eric NaNap has been copied on all of that. Um, she appears to be away because her driveway, when I drove past the house last week, her driveway is not plowed. So, I don't think she's there. Um, so anyway, that's our main thing that we're looking at.

And also the um the center school door that they installed without the transom glass and side lights. Um I have not gotten any response from uh silver Petraelli on that. They [clears throat] were supposed to have the transom and the side lights right approved with some kind of bulletproof glass or something and they just didn't put that in and I'm not sure why. Who who were you contacting Martha about that? Silver Pet Silver Petraelli is the architect the architectural firm.

Silver Silver Petraelli. I I would I would urge you to to um you know remind them again, but also contact whoever the point person is at the school and say, you know, we're we're really concerned that the installation took place without complying with the the CFA. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're the ones who who can press the architectural firm and take steps to to fix it the the issue. Yeah. Is it the same person that's responsible for the lighting, the superintendent? Superend facilities, right?

He's the guy. Well, I'm wondering if for the next new business discussion is is do him in here? Yeah, I think. Yeah. So, um but yeah, just going to the architect is probably not enough. We need to bring to the school attention. Yeah. And I can check with the facilities guy, too. And I I you might call Martha and if you don't get a response within a week, send a letter and copy Eric. I mean, this is we we actually have had or I have heard complaints about the lack of the skylights

from from from people. They they know that this was a feature. I mean, I guess I should be gratified somebody occasionally apparently reads our reads our minutes. Uh but uh they they they know this is an issue that it's a loss of character. Yeah. It's a loss of character not to have what was approved. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anything else? Um yeah, there is some question about the 100 Lime Street the uh Roger Tory Peterson Estuary Center sign,

right? There's some controversy about that because when we approved the sign, the original sign for the be and thistle was huge. Huge. Yeah. And we approved it, the Roger Tory Peterson Eschuary Center sign as kind of grandfathered into that same size because they put like a a plastic kind of like temporary. I remember over it was temporary. Yeah. Yeah. And then and so they were originally going to because the posts were really old and kind of rotted,

they were going to put in new posts, which they never did. And so recently the sign looks different because they it was falling over. So they just chopped the rotted part off and put it down. I mean, this is what we're talking about uh to Alicia about next meeting. Is that correct? Right. Right. Yeah. I mean I can I can tell you if you if you like again what Eric Knap said, but we can also Yeah. Please say no. Go ahead and say right quickly, John. Yeah. Okay. Basic.

I mean, basically the question to Eric was if if you're changing the location of a non-conforming sign, and this is nonconforming. It is larger than anything zoning would approve even with a permit. Uh the the limit is is 12 square feet. Um so Eric regarded the original sign as a non-conforming use. His review of the legal authorities is it probably still would be called a non-conforming use even though it's lowered. Now, what zoning approves isn't necessarily what we may we may move, but um I I personally find the sign in its current location very problematic. It's right at the eyesight of drivers and it's it's huge. Um so, we can we can discuss all uh at the next meeting.

Yep. Okay. Um, anything else, Martha?

Um, let's see. Let's see. I have um Oh, there is a uh Freedom of Information Act workshop on February 25th here uh at 6:30 p.m., but I'll send out more information. Um, everybody's invited. It's nice if you can come. It's not a, you know, absolute requirement, but there's they always have um good things about what is public information, what isn't public information, how things need to be um advertised and notifi notifications and all kinds of things. So,

no secret meetings, right? No secret meetings, no discussions between more than two people, more than two people of a commission on anything. Not to everybody, right? If if there's more than two people on an email, then it's a meeting. I mean, technically, it's a meeting. Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. Okay. And uh we are also making some progress with um Elena the um the intern who is helping us set up an Excel spreadsheet to put all of our um property information in which is really going to be good. So that's good.

Okay. Uh and you also also um we're we're tracking the old lime in lighting. I I do think it would be useful to have the owners come in because I I believe Martha checked and that the lighting has never been approved. Whether we want to wait until we have guidelines and bring them in, uh, I I I don't I don't know, but we we certainly have some concrete thoughts about lighting spurred in part by the the review of the zoning regulations. Yeah. Didn't we include illumination in the sign guidelines?

Yes. So, that would that would be You're you're right. You're right. Um right, Ross. I mean, whether those need need revisions is uh another question. But you're right, this was added after they put the signs in. But but they but you're saying that they never approve lighting as part of the CFA for the signs. That's my understanding. I I think Martha looked at the CFAs. Yeah, I looked it up and they had one light on top of the jazz club sign, right?

Which was grandfathered in because it had been there for a long time. But now apparently they have lighting on the other sign, the big old lime in sign. They have two signs for the old lime in in addition to the jazz club sign. Right. Right. And the reason they have two old line in signs are because they were there previously. So they were apparently approved at one point in the past. And so when they put the new sign in, they left the they were okay to have the two signs. One

which is visible from the exit on from I 95 and one that's visible from Lime Street. Right. Okay. Um, we're we're well into 30 minutes past our time. So, I would ask on the new and ongoing business. Uh, I think new business is illumination. Um, is there any ongoing business that we really need to discuss now or that we could defer to the next meeting? Defer. I think we can I think we can defer, but um

that I did send you an email, Russ, about the item that you were going to mention in the co-chair's report, and you might want to mention it now. It had to do with the the speed cameras. Oh, right. Yeah. Now I remember. Yeah.

Yeah. the the uh the the town is considering the planning uh um traffic committee is is considering uh traffic uh cameras that basically issue tickets and you know track the track the speed. There is the potential if they were to approve that that those devices might end up in the historic district on Lime Street because Lime Street is one of the areas of concern. Um, just wanted to bring that to everybody's attention. We would um I don't know what jurisdiction we have over traffic devices. Um, but it we we if if we have anything to say about location appearance, how it impacts a district, uh, we might want to discuss that in an upcoming meeting. Did we say anything about the sign that's across from the firehouse, the speed sign that's there now? We

we haven't. Right. And John, what's our what is our jurisdiction on traffic uh devices if any? I I I I would have to double check the exact the exact language. Um

maybe for the next meeting. I mean if if if uh yeah for the for the next meeting I can can check that. I mean that would be great. We we my in general I think we don't have discretion if if if a sign is required by state or local law but how these signs were approved and and I I I don't know.

Right. Okay. Um that would be a good topic at the next as well as the elimination uh topic and let's discuss maybe John maybe we can discuss what we heard today um and whether we take any action before the next uh committee meeting relative to the uh the public comments today on lighting. Um, I'd like to get a little more background on what's in the district, what's out of the district, and what our jurisdiction is there on on the lighting. Um, anything else critical? Motion to adjurnn. So, moved. Second.

Second. All in favor? I cast