Town Council - Regular Meeting

from park um different items. So you had mentioned items that get left on the CIP from you know 10 years or 15 years whatever. So in the 2020 CIP adopted in 2021 there was a line for splash pad and that has disappeared. Council must have taken an action to remove it. Yeah. Okay. We don't have any money for that. We do we should take offization of existing systems.

I will say back when it was on the CIP it was quoted at 120 and now looking at figures it looks like 200,000. So I believe it was quoted in discussions of being like a million dollars and I just want to say that that's not at all the case. So just for council to consider. So where we going to put the water at? Where we going to put the water? Let let me There's recirculation systems. It'd be like 200,000, but it's so far out right now. I don't even think it doesn't necessarily need to be cuz it's 200,000 for we're talking about phase 2 sports courts. We're talking about Yeah. And just in the or the items under Heritage Farm Park splash pad was on here at one point for 120,000. Yeah. And we took it off. Yeah.

Yeah. But I was saying if we were to consider adding back on, I want to be clear that the latest estimates are at 200,000 for recirculation system. No sewer required. There's a water hook up right by the bathroom. You have the filtration system there.

Let me offer this up because I I understand how the where the conversation's coming from and how we're we got where we're at, but like so many things that come into the CIP. We don't have any data to support a a splash pad today. Not saying that it's a a bad idea or a good idea. I'm just saying we don't have the data. We can put it on the Yeah, but we can put it on the list and put it at six plus years because we know we're not going to build it this year. And that gives time for um for folks to start putting together what the actual cost would be and we can decide next year if we move it forward or not cuz we know we're not going to do it this year. We don't have a water system.

But it wasn't even the top surveys, was it? It was. Well, I I think where I was it was number three or four, I think. Well, and even and like 5 years ago it was number two. Yeah. It just got ignored. Well, I think because we we I mean there are a lot of reasons and so it didn't end up with the master plan. First of all, it increases the number of parking spaces you need exponentially. Uh other towns re what I disagree.

I'm just saying as a parent of children, it's the kids using the park. People come when there's a splash pad. It's like a magnet. It's like Disney. Everybody comes. And that's what Miguel has told us. That's what Reington Well, no, we haven't talked to Reington. Everyone we've talked to about it has said it's a magnet. You would need to increase parking significantly. It's seasonal. It's a highmaintenance item. A lot of towns who put them in, we did this research a couple years ago, take take them out because there's so much trouble. It is not on our current master plan. So just from park master plan. So just from that standpoint until we found a place and found a way that doesn't seem to affect our staffing and uh our parking and all that. It's right now it's it's something people want. I grant you. But it's not realistic for our town to do. So I would not put it on this plan. So based on your opinion,

I just cited many facts. Okay. It was on here at one point and it has gotten significant. And this is not taken off.

I'm representing people that looking at the results of the survey, it was all over the comments. And when you give a survey where it's not an option available for people to select, it's going to skew the results. And that's why people had to have writing comments saying, "This is what we want." Because five years ago when we first did the Heritage Farm Park plan, it was I think the number two uh of what people wanted it was like 85 uh votes or something. If you look back at the data, it was very significant along with adventure playground and it's the only thing that hasn't been considered any plans and continues not be considered any plans based on I believe faulty data. We don't need based on what I read it takes like $10,000 a year of maintenance. Sure. We don't need I've heard you had suggested before that it requires staff to be there. It does not at all. Um I know some do have staff there, some don't. It's not considered a pool. It's a water recreation facility. So there's just I feel like there's a lot of misinformation out there to validate not having it on here, but it has been on here based on results. I think it should be on here again based on survey and public input. Can Can we impact this thing?

Can we I mean, you've cited stuff. You're complaining that the data is wrong. U Mike has at least said we don't know, right? What What What's impactful? Yeah. So, here's the thing. Last year, we put the community center on there. Okay. We don't know how much it's going to cost. It says explore options. Yeah. Are are we saying that we're just so dug in that we won't put things on there and put them six years plus out and explore options? Come on, folks. We're just talking, right? Well, I'm in favor of taking that off if if that's a discussion item. That's that's not my point. My point is is that we added the community center and so we would right

put it out there to explore the option when it makes sense, when we have money. Again, is it really that hard to to recognize a town council member that's trying to represent the people that elected her to go, you know what, we'll put it on the list. We'll put it 6 years plus out and we'll explore options. There's no money attached to it. We're going to spend all this time talking about something that's just going to be a line item on the paper until we have money for it and a water system. And anyone here say that they have not heard public interest in a splash pad or that they think it's a low interest of the public? Let's just put it on there so we can put it on. I've not heard that, but I've heard pickle ball a billion times, but just put it on there.

Well, that's who you talk to. We paid money to have McGill stand out there and take surveys and put doubts out and everything else. and the things that rose to the top, we wouldn't have spent that money if we didn't expect to do something with it, unless we were just being disingenuous. So, the top thing was the sports courts and we should be looking at the things that that the citizens took the time to put out there. Again,

until Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. until we have a water system and until we have more information like we're not going to put a splash park in, you know, we're talking about, well, there's a parking issue. Hell, we got a parking issue in every part of our park. That's right. At some point, this council or a future council is going to sit around the table and go, we're going to have to come up with 200 parking spaces going to cost us $2 million. And that's going to be an ugly conversation because people aren't going to go, "Oh, goody. We got more parking spaces." You know, that's that's not what they're interested in, but we need them.

Well, maybe we should kill everything and address that now. Interesting point, though. I I really one of the reasons I'm against, you know, I I think we may need a little more parking, but I don't want our parks to be parking lots. I think we I want to maintain the open space. uh activi uh act what what do you call those active playgrounds adventure playgrounds that's not on here either because I don't I don't think that's feasible right now vandera so that takes care of that at least vandera I didn't know that but everything else is getting addressed other than

okay but what I have heard is that splash pads are not terrifically feasible for towns and I think that's part of our job people can say they want a Chick-fil-A but it's not feasible for Chick-fil-A to locate here. And I think what we've realized and our staff, we can ask them to speak to this at some point. It does require staffing. It doesn't uh it does require hard maintenance. All right, let's move on. Yeah, it's coming for six plus years. Okay. Which is I know some people might have personal opposition to splash pads, but speaking for the younger families there, it is the number one thing that families want

and people have demonstrated that in surveys and to say that we're not going to put something that was number two on a survey just 5 years ago is a slap in the face to citizens. I'm sorry to be so heated about it, but that's how I feel. I know I am. I'm sorry that I'm looking out for the town. For who in the town, for the feasibility of this? It is feasible. I looked into it. I've heard you spread misinformation about it saying, "Oh, it' be a million dollars. Oh, we need to have extra stack there from the It's not accurate." I think the guild knows more.

Mr. Mayor, I'll make a motion that we add the the line item of slash add slash park to the CIP with a notation that says that we'll explore options and we can have this discussion in uh in next year. Next year we'll move it out to the six we'll move it to the six plus year. Well, but my motion is that we add splash park/pad to the CIP with a note to explore options and then I need a second.

And so my comment is that we can put it at 6 plus years and we know we're not going to do anything this year cuz the water system's not done. Once the water system's done, it may or may not be feasible, but we can talk about it then. Are you suggesting an amount to put in there or just leave it? We didn't put an amount for the community center. So, no, that's why I'm asking. Which choice are you making? No. Yeah, because I don't know what that amount would be. Okay. We have a motion that's been second. Any further comments? Seems like we've had plenty already. Yeah. All right. All in favor say I. I. opposed.

I'm sorry. How many? Four. Four to one. I think as as Mr. Stone stated, splash pad explore options. No, no number. U in year six plus. Okay. As far as explore options, and you want that um that's under the Heritage Farms Park. Yes. Heading. Okay. As far as the score options, uh, who would be doing the expiration options? How are we going to get a bid on that? I think that it depends on council's instruction.

I I would think that we would ask um parks and w since this it falls under parks um to to get them to start having those discussions. Well, that's this is a whole different thing. Okay. I am not in favor of this either. community center has explore options and basically we've done nothing and I don't see this is a $20 million project. Um how do you know that? Uh because I've talked to a lot of people about how much you know the Kernerville one cost other uh similar minimum of 15 million for what we talked about. Now

and we were also told by Senator Burgerer when I think you guys had that discussion. He said, "Go talk to your YMCA." Understand? Yeah. And the YMCA, you know, we would have to have land and we would have to pony up the money because they don't they don't pony up the money. You have to. Um, so, uh, I would not I think I think respecting the workload that parks and wreck already has and the likelihood of this happening because I don't see a place for it on our master plan. And this is why I'm against doing it because we don't have a place for it on our master plan.

And we have a master plan. We we've had we've had a motion, but I I just want to ask Bill if Mr. Stone suggested that parts and wreck, but I'm assuming that staff would be involved in that or not. I mean, it depends on how detailed of a exploration you want. If it's a if we need to hire someone to do a design, that's a budget item. If it's just talking to some folks and doing some Google searches and that's a that's a different thing.

Yeah, it's very easy based on what I've looked into. One, it wasn't CIP before at 120,000. That was 5 years ago. Now estimates are like 150 to 250. So average 200,000. It's very easy to get estimates online. It's 1,000 square ft. Uh you know, it's very basic. I would I would recommend staff to start that and then we would take what we've learned to parks and recck for discussion. Okay. So that that's an approach that we can impact in future the next years.

Okay. So living the page. Well, did we talk about the maintenance building? That's on page one for me. Well, it's Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there's way that's 2829. Yeah, but I I was going to ask No, but there's an urgent part of it. This was number one recommendation of parks and wrote. Yeah. I guess the question is of the 50,000 and you said 20 credit for the roof the true the roof and you you have a problem today with the roof. Yes, sir. Correct. It's leaking. Yep.

And a new roof which is shingle would be 20,000. Welcome 18. We patted just a couple green in case we got to damage it. We did more than one business. And an alternative Yeah. And you're not considering I mean it's not I mean I'm just going to go back a year or two with the with the farmhouse. We had shingles on that farmhouse and then it was thought that we could put a metal roof on for not too much more. That's cuz other things came out of the project though.

Okay. I'm just trying to do a recheck. I mean, metal metal roofs are more expensive, but they they're also more, you know, 50 years from now, you're probably okay with your metal roof, and you don't have to worry about it again. Are you doing a standing sink roof or is that the is that what's the cost making it the price go up or whatever you're called? No, he's doing and this is just for planning purposes. I mean, when when we it could be 15,000 if we put it out for three bids and get something low. I mean, this is just so you see how the money would flow to the bottom line. I guess what I'm suggesting. I just can't imagine a tro cost more than Oh, it does.

Standard t roof. Yeah. We're not talking about we're not talking about the Heritage Farm Park. We're talking about a standard tin roof, a roof open. Okay. My my whole point is that if we have a leaking roof that is causing leaking roofs cause more issues that will cost more money than fixing it. And I guess what I'm looking for is do we move the 20 grand forward into next year so it can be

dealt with. I I move that we move the 20 grand into year one. And I guess I I don't know about the siding. How urgent is that? It's not a dire need. Um I would suggest uh here in the next probably three years you hear that what I what I heard earlier you know we going down to the general session I I asked you was roof urgent and then the as I understand it the siding is just ugly. Well, it it it does have a little bit of damage to it. That's not repable or Right. Yeah. I mean, it's uh it's not repairable. Well, it it could be. I mean, yeah.

Okay. It absolutely could be. So, what if we would it be reasonable, Brock, you said within 3 years something needs to be done. Maybe we put Do you think it would be wise to put the 20,000 in year 1 and then put the 30,000 in say year four and see if we can repair it in the meantime and hopefully either forego that or put it off. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh like I said, the the roof is in. Okay. So, I'll finish my motion. Okay. Let's put 20 I would move that we put 20,000 in year 1 and 30,000 in year four. Um and you know we we see what we can do in the meantime.

Okay, there's a motion. Do we have a second? Second. Okay, motion made a second. All in favor?

I I oppose. No, I mean no days, which uh sounds like sounds like uh something you'd buy in the drugstore. Okay, so flipping the page, we're in Town Park and in year one. Well, I guess the question back on the signage one, how we were talking about in the beginning the 30,000 and the 100,000 now 70,000. How do we want to That's just hard to believe. We made $100,000 worth of signs. Yeah. I don't want $100,000 signs.

Where are you? I understand, but we're down to the park entrance. That includes 30,000. I'm sorry. Can I Can I ask a question or or or make a suggestion? Parks and Rec took the time to give us this information. John's here. Um, can we ask John to kind of give us an overview of their discussion because I do have a couple questions. Good idea. Is that okay, John? I mean, yeah, absolutely. Our thought was folks that are new to the park going over to Heritage Farm. John, I'm really sorry. Can you stand closer to a No, they weren't on

any spot.

Our thought going in again, uh, visiting families playing soccer at the farm park here at the farm and they really, unless they have been there before, won't know exactly where to go. So, we thought just to have signs that, you know, will more clearly show the entrances and where to go and and where to park, plus the daily, you know, between Brock and Ashley. Brock said that basic deliveries, you know, delivery trucks won't go to uh this spot to making deliveries. They don't have any idea where they're supposed to go. like a delivery up, you know, to the farm park versus the town park as far as deliveries. And we didn't get in necessarily to the design of the sign the signs. We just kind of uh and Brock may could shed some light or Ashley on this the amount of cuz I I know one's for the uh sign at the corner of Lisa and Lynville like we'd said and then just the rest of the signage for the rest of the park and make it um uh look like it matches and and and would be nice signage. So other than that, yeah, we didn't go in any many any sizes for

$30,000. They should be big. Remember that includes the sidewalk also, doesn't it? Oh, sidewalk connection because from Sam's office there's going to be a sidewalk coming down and we want to put a um on on the east side of Lynville and we want to have a crosswalk and we have a place ready for it, but we need to make a little sidewalk connection there that would lead to that. Um that is part of the how far this is part of the getting your sidewalk in. What? The doctors have to build the building first. So, we can move that out. Yeah. My obligation is 200 foot. It's not going to We don't need the sidewalk right now. The sidewalk's not actually big section anyway. Okay. Very small.

It's not that much. Yeah. This 15,000 on the side. About 20 yards. The Heritage Farm Park sign. How much was uh roughly 20 to 25,000? Yes. For that rock wall. Yes. really

if I could interject, I just had to build, you know, the monument sign we've got that says Anderson and Barrow. Um that alone was right at $10,000 because um if a nuclear device goes off, hide behind my sign. Um all joking aside, Guilford County's new standards for commercial signage, you have to have an engineered footing with rebar. I call it a mattress is what it looked like to me. But rebar down, rebar coming up. I had to have the or Frasier did it. The block and brick had to be laid over rebar. But it was ungodly. We had to have an engineer come and draw that and test the soil. Pour concrete, pour rebar, and then building the sign was no problem. It was the foundation. And you know,

is that because of location street? No. They said any commercial sign, they're requiring a uh an engineered footing. Yeah. Interesting. That makes sense. It's 10,000. I mean, that's cheaper than 100,000 for all the other signs. Yeah. You know, they're going to have some in there. You know, signage is expensive. Well, remember that 100,000 includes the 30.

So, let's call that 100,70 to do the remaining or else you'd cross out the 30. But I would separate those two projects. In other words, the main sign at the corner of our park, I think, is a high priority. And so we put that at 30 maybe in year one as it's indicated and then maybe in year two put 70 to because that's going to take a lot more thought it'd be a $30,000 sign signalk sidewalk. Okay. is that sign just to get some clarity on on the signage and what parks and rec what we kind of

determined was we would like to the AI church sign up there at the Alporn in 68. I mean we would like to try and mimic something to that at the corner of Leville right on the corner which is kind of grand entrance Oidge Town Park. The Lynville road has has no signage. So, someone calls to um book a book a party, they ask, "Well, how do I get to that location?" My my explanation to do is across the street from the fire department. Um so, a little green sign doesn't work there. It could. We don't need another big monument.

Well, and the thought was just to bring all the more signage to the same thing. We don't need the lease road signs. Those are one they're outdated. They're small. They're I mean you could, you know, just say it's just more of an aesthetic thing. Um now we do have a lot of damage to those just because of how they were they were set up. Um large trucks, school buses, uh GFL. I mean, I can't tell you how many times we rebuilt that wall and replace those bushes cuz it's just dry stack. They brought

stone. Yeah. Um, so that was just kind of the thought process. We didn't have any kind of inclination on what a cost would be, but we just went off to the Harris Farm Park sign was 20 to 25. So if we were doing just three of those, you're looking at 75. And that's not even including the big kind of AI style sign. So I mean, I'm trying I'm trying to remember what the big AI it didn't cost $2,000. I I don't remember. I mean that's we're talking about the one the one that just recently did the green one. Yeah. So you're not talking about a wood sign in front of

that's that's the Methodist church that ain't us that was tens plural of thousands of dollars and we ain't spending that much bigger than we need. You need to get adopted by Mrs. Crane.

That's right. I would also emphasize that as I think you started saying, no one can find anything in our park and I would leave the amount high and start trying to do uh what they call they call it wayfinding in the park industry. But there is no sign saying amphitheater that way, playground number one, shelter number one, shelter number two. People come into our park and they are lost. And I think we need uh directional signage. I think we need um one of those, you know, when you come into a state park and you see a a sort of um plexiglass sign on a post and you know have heritage farm park and Oakidge Farm Park Oakidge Town Park and what's in each of them and where they are so that you can figure out how to get places. We have this problem with every one of our events. You can say it's at the concession stand and nobody knows where the concession stand is unless you've got kids in O ya playing that year. It's out of your head.

So I would leave the Can we get a price on them? Can someone just get this up? Give us some budget and we'll do what we can with that. That's what I'm suggesting. 50,000 put in Well, I'd say 70 for that 30 for the first year, 70 for the second year. Is that a little We're talking about a lot of signage. We are just But these little green signs. Yeah, it does. Yeah, that's the whole thing. If we're talking about signs to direct people to Heritage Farm. Yeah, they're probably a couple hundred a piece. Yeah, but if you're talking about a directional map, that's a lot more. Well, a maps are not a sign.

Well, it's part of a signage. When you do a a signage package for a park, you do all of these things. You also include things that say, you know, amphitheater over there. John lives down here. What? It sounds to me that everybody seems to be on board with the 30. That's a What's the necessity? All right. Now, the other one, it sounds like we need more work to do. Do that next year. Is that okay? Well, and and and and maybe just maybe to just split the 70. Where did the 30 come from? That was uh that's based on the Heritage Farm Park sign and a little bit of sidewalk.

So, we doing a little bit of sidewalk. So, side Yes, you would to connect with to the to connect with the crosswalk, the Andrew's way. Well, but it'll be that's going to be moved out. No, 30 is going to stay. It's going to be moved out though. We're not going to be able We're not going to This is a sidewalk to connect list. That's not going to happen until they've developed that property. I I would and I think we can do the sidewalk for under the CIP threshold. I mean, really, it's not very far. So, I would just focus on what you'd want to spend on an entrance sign at least and put that in your your

And is that 30 or less? I mean, I I remember when we were going to put the welcome to Oakidge, you know, we got three welcome to Oakidge signs, the big stone wall. We were going to put one on 68. We never did it because it was the cost ended up being too high. It was about $30,000. Now, that was six years ago. That was nice stone, you know, masonry work. So, you can't do fake stone. I mean, sure, you could do I mean, it's a historic district, bro. To do standards. They might make us do it.

How about this? If if again, I I think we're talking about two different things. If we're talking about directional signs that that help people navigate the park, those signs are a couple hundred dollars a piece. You know that that but if we're talking about a sign at the the corner to introduce the town park, we're talking about something bigger. $50,000. So not ready for that. Yeah, I don't think so. So why don't we taking Bill's suggestion, why don't we just budget 10,000 this year and see what we can do with 10,000 from aformational directional standpoint. But the priority is to get an Oakidge Town Park sign. That's the 30. It's not mine.

Well, so parks and wreck number four priority. Number four priority. Yeah, that's pretty high. Okay. So we're going to we're going to do parking 18 spaces because that's higher than the signs. Yeah, maybe. Sorry. Yeah. Well, it's number three. They've split it up. Number three is the next one is new sign at main entrance. That's what that $30,000 This really isn't accurate. The 30,000 I thought was for the new sign at the main entrance. That's right. That's correct. So, that's their number three priority. And I think that's worth doing. And so, if Sam's sign was $10,000, I mean, what's wrong with that sign? I mean, maybe we do a little

pres 15,000. Oh, no. They approved mine instantly. How about this? Well, I think we need to fit with the aesthetic we have established for our park and we've got the Heritage Farm Park sign that costs 25,000. So, we need to spend that much. Well, I I don't know. I think that's an even more visible location. I wouldn't I wouldn't want to make it too small. Um you 25,000 might do it. I'd like to get prices on it and get some designs and and so we know it. Hell, we're talking. But that you're Well, we do have places. I know. I'm just trying to

I would I would suggest you leave the 30 and then, you know, just have work done to to get us get us an idea what we need to do for these remaining issues, whether they're just directional signs or whatever. It sounds to me like we don't have a complete Well, and I added that. Well, I'm just saying I don't think we have complete plan on signage, but but I think personally I agree. I think we have a a need to put a better sign at at the corner of Lisa and Lynville with with Yeah, there's no sign

and and Bill says we could do the remaining part of it. Then 30 covers it. Probably 25 covers it. But I'll make a motion that we add the signage committee. And if we do, so if we have HPC, could we do 15,000 to have maybe a little step up, a few more bells and whistles, and then include the green basic signs for like the second the third entrance and wherever else we need.

Well, remember if we put in a sign, we probably have to put in a little bit of landscaping. We have to put in some lights, some uplighting. I would leave it at the 30 and I would call that one you can say complete TPMP but including main sign at entrance. Well, so was the 25,000 at Harris Park. Was that just the sign and then we did more for landscaping lights? That one I don't think we did. Remember it was all part of the bar contract. So it was just it was a line item in a lump sum. So you know they could have added that. They could have added it. So we have no clue what it is. I met Tim Fraser out there and Billy Sam. He told me that sign right there cost 30.

Okay. The Sam I suggest that we got a pass sign. Leave the 30 for the sign and we with the assumption that we're mimicking or duplicating the the style of our Harry's farm park sign and it'll be what it is. I mean in this whole budget the difference of $5,000 a we going to change the whole 1.35. So if we can do it for le I mean this is we can do it for less we will yeah I'm just saying leave it I mean you could have a $50,000 plan if you wanted to like it's I mean

well I'm just saying it matters what we say duplicate in essence what we have at Heritage Park. Well, appropriate to that site. Yeah, there are longer sight distances there, I think. But I take your point. Let's just not be a ridiculous. How about this? How about a middle ground here? There's $30,000 sitting there right now, but we're also talking about this directional thing. How about we have because they suggested it parks and wreck to explore directional signage and the the main park sign with a budget of $30,000.

Well, that's silly. You couldn't possibly do that. what they've suggested included.

What they suggested do that they want a sign at the farmhouse, a sign at the Lynville Road parking area and a and signs replace signs at Lisa Drive. That was their priority. I built on that and said wayfinding. I am uh so I think that we need to honor if we're going to honor what they say, we leave the $30,000 in for the main sign and then add additional park uh primary signage and ex and maybe you have a third item. I don't know. Explore wayfinding, but that may not even, you know, maybe we can do wayfinding under the level. So, I wouldn't put that in there yet. I would just say additional signage and list these other things. And is it 70,000? I don't know. You could put in 50 and have them come up with a budget, but put it out a year. So, I'd say 30 in year 1 and 50 in year two and leave the wayfinding for them to come up

with a plan. Okay. and making we just had I make that a motion 30 and 50 one and two. So you are amending your earlier motion. Did I make a motion? But we can always move the 50 out next year. What did I move? 30,000. You moved. Yeah, cuz I don't see spending. Was it seconded? I don't see $80,000. Okay. Yeah, I'm amending it to 30 in year one and 50 in year two. Second. What kind of signs are these? Like it says right here a new sign. It's a farmhouse new sign at Lynville Road parking lot to identify that as part of the Oakidge Town.

So they can just make up figures of all these other signs and we accept it. But I can't say, "Hey, I looked up where the flag pad would be." Well, that's not okay. No, I'm sorry. We do know. We don't have any basis for these signs. You all are saying, "Oh, well, we could do this sign or this sign or oh, it might be this or maybe this." I think they want stone monument signs. They need to rebuild the two of them on Lynville Road and they want to have a similar larger sign at I'm sorry that's Lisa a similar larger sign at Lynville. I I mean we know those sorts of stone signs cost a minimum of $10,000. So when do we need the Lisa road signs done? I don't see that as need. You're talking about the one

they're crumbling down they're in bad shape. because we have the main sign. When do you need the lease of road signs or you know I you know I mean can you live with it for another year, two years? I mean they'll last at least 20 years. Well, we just get rid of them if we have the main entrance sign. You still have the entrances. You still have to mark the entrance. You can mark the entrance with smaller more basic signs, but we don't need $25,000 signs at the entrances, right? If we're having a big one at the corner park. Well, yeah. We could use cardboard for all that.

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying we need to think about do we need $75,000 worth of signs within sight distance? I don't think so. If we have the main one of the entrance to the park and then you need sure entrance exit, but I don't think each of those will be $25,000. Okay. Well, I I would you have there was a motion made. The motion was 30,000 in year one and 50 in year two. Correct. And of course, we can ask parks and rec to come back with a budget for that. Um, why can't we just get them to give us the price the second year?

They should know what the prices are going to be. I give us the second year with the B with the with the right and and I just just to reiterate all of this will go in the draft budget. So this is kind of like step one planning document for the next five years. Step two is everything in that year one is going to go into the draft budget that then council reviews so we can start fleshing out especially what's in year one to to get

well yeah you would but but I but I would prioritize the after Lisa Lisa and Lynville at the farmhouse lyn is the second priority and then rebuilding the ones down lease How about the prices next year when they come up? Yep. Okay. So, why don't we just put the 30 in and they can come back next year with pricing options. Maybe why don't we put in additional uh primary park signs and wayfinding signs and say explore options and bud explore bud develop budget. Sure. That's fine.

Okay. So, I'll amend my motion a third time to reflect 30,000 in year one and ch and that would be for complete town park entrance master plan including main sign for Oakidgetown Park and then additional primary signage plus wayfinding signs for both parks. uh explore develop budget in the notes explore options same thing you did for all this other stuff and so no dollar figure on well I would I would be specific about this develop a budget that's because this is a a multiple

a thing with multiple components and this is something we can impact the other ones okay could all right we had a motion the third item. I'll second it. Well, so there's no dollar figure on the second just just the 30,000 for the town park side. That's it. So, and you're saying explore options and propose develop budget. Yeah. Sorry, another quick question on that for next year. I think so. Right now, is there no like even basic green sign on the L road entrance? A green sign. basic sign.

The sign has historically been Sandra standing there. We have you see Sander, you turn in. It's like a Liberty texture. I do. So, is that something we should definitely include? At least have a basic sign or is that that's to be explored. The green signs we don't do. That's a that's a county sign, but not at the entrance. Right across the street from Lisa is a one of the big brown signs. Not a big green sign. Must be rental. It says town this way, fire department this way. But there's also one at 68. Let me run elementary. Okay, we have a motion. I have a second. I need to call all in favor.

I oppose. Name. Okay, Bill. We're finished. Did you get that? I think so. So I

mean you got this other stuff primary signage at parks plus way finding plus way finding and then I took out the $100,000 figure and just said explore options and develop budget for 2627 right although that's Still got it. That part where it says new sign at main entrance. That needs to be up above.

And the priority three. No, the priority three goes in the line above because that's the main the main the line above is the main sign, right? So that should say over in the right side. It should say priority number three. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Cuz the main sign was their priority number three right here. Well, you said the sidewalk handled in budget. I think that's part of 30,000. Can you Well, I see this doesn't really they're both priority three. Sorry.

I think that's the priority for parks and wreck isn't even really that that's to help you. Okay. But it is priority three, not four. And we can separate the sign from the sidewalk or how you know we can get Yeah, we're taking the sidewalk out of the CIP. That's the other thing. Okay. So, this is because you said it probably doesn't meet the and we want to do that. Maybe another reason to do that is that when that sidewalk is put in, we want to jump on that and put that little bit of connector in as soon as we can. We don't want to be have to say, well, that's not till year four or something, you Yeah, I mean we can we can do whatever we want. But

so where it's number three parks and w that that comment needs to move up to where that number four is at. Okay. And then the comment on the one where it's currently number three is to for parks and rec to explore signage for and budget for next year. Right. So that's what I've got. Yeah. But number four that comment and where your comment for number three parks priority new sign at farmhouse that's that that comment goes up.

No no the new sign at farmhouse is the one that we're we're talking about putting off a year. All the additional signs the farmhouse the parking lots. I thought that's what we decided. The only one we've budgeted the $30,000 change the word. Oh, they're tech. I'm sorry, Mike. You're not understanding. It's a sign for the farmhouse, not for the Oakidge Town Park. No, no, no. At least the Oakidge Town Park sign, right? But they were also talking about a sign specifically for the farmhouse thing. $30,000 as a package of all in the second, the multiple signs, a sign at the farmhouse, a sign at the parking lot.

Yeah, that's they're going to have to produce a budget next year, right? That's what we said at the end of that new farmhouse sign at farmhouse just so that new sign a new farmhouse just sign it's it's the new park Lisa and Lynville no that's a se the big Lisa and Lynville is in the line above this they also want an assignment for the farmhouse farmhouse community center there's no budget at all for that sign explore options

house like a farmhouse kicked out the side yes that would be the park entrance sign right and that's what we that's the 30,000 for the main sign at least right okay okay that was confusing yeah

all right John back to you okay Going down my list as far as our recommendations again, the the new roof on the uh uh Brocks maintenance building and we opted to go with the u additional parking number two for the U farmhouse 18 spaces and we thought of a couple things. That's been the biggest comment about the farmhouse is there's no parking and that would address that. Plus that would be 18 more spaces of overflow parking for big events at the town park. So, we thought that would be, you know, a two for one uh um fit there for us and and then it would be, you know, a relatively small number, but just do the parking and that would complete the farmhouse.

All right. So, $100,000 for 18 spaces and that may just been a guest. You got a quote of 90,000.00. Well, so question on that. So I know like I guess I've gone to an event there and there's so many parking lots right across the street. Like what are the rules as far as people parking? You cannot park there. Trust me. Okay. Well, and so you're saying Mustang? Mustang. You cannot use What about at town hall? Yeah, you town hall. I mean it's like right there. Yep. So I don't know. Unless you have to walk there. Yep. I wouldn't walk over there for would we walk over from here to the farm?

I think one of the comments has been that people I mean even though we have handicap spaces um that there's a crosswalk right but people who aren't super mobile it's a little hard to walk from here to the farmhouse but this parking lot would be very close. the when you when you get to B73, you'll know what we're talking about.

Well, the the issue becomes that, you know, comment we had a little bit earlier is that we have a parking problem and fixing it onesie twoosy is is just not going to do it. Adding 18 spaces to the to the farmhouse this year coming up makes no sense. $100,000 we can spend on some other stuff. Uh, I just don't see that being a priority.

I have always said that the main parking lot is sufficient for park facilities. However, we are the feedback that we're getting from people is that they need parking closer. They would like parking closer. Now, we have put in the lights and I think that's making things better for people. Um, I do I I did hear parks and recck talk about this. They feel very strongly about it based on the data they've heard. Staff has heard that. Um, I think it's a way to address a specific part of our parking lot problem without taking over all of our grassy areas. In other words, this is a place, it's on the side of the road where we don't impact the beauty of the open space in our town park because I've been for a long time against messing up those beautiful open spaces with either, you know, fields or parking and that sort of thing because I think that park is a jewel as it is and I don't want to destroy the entire aesthetic feel of it, but I think this is something that we can we can make some inroads here without messing up the aesthetics of our town park. So, with that in mind, I'm in favor of putting it in

I would like to see something that addresses everything instead of just Yeah. I I just can't see a proven a onesie twoosy adding 18 spaces here, 20 spaces there. Look, and I appreciate the work rate does, but 18 spaces is not going to make a spit's worth of difference during ridgefest, but it isn't for ridgefest. It's primarily for the farmhouse. Well, I understand just to to John's comment is that I if I

if we think that we have a parking issue with the farmhouse, then there we need to have that as part of a bigger conversation on parking in general because to to Ann's point, where we put them is going to have an impact on the vistas. is going to have an impact on how people travel from one location to the other and everything. It's a bigger conversation and it's a big number. I would just prefer that that from a parking standpoint right now that it it's it's just I understand it's your number two priority parks and wreck, but I just don't see it as those 18 spaces for $100,000 being a wise decision at this point.

Are people allowed to park on the grass like you do for other events? Um, if they can with advanced permission, right? Just a quick question because I I haven't heard it being discussed. Um, and and truthfully, it just now came to me. Um, would council be be willing to maybe go ahead and put a gravel parking lot in? You got the sub layer, you got the base, and then you can come back and asphalt on top of that 5 years from now. if you if they want to present us with a proposal with uh the costs. I mean, well, I mean, I'm just asking the house would be, you know, willing to to consider that option. I would I'll park on gravel. I know.

But also, I mean, yeah, we park on the grass all the time. And if you said that people can do that with advanced approval, couldn't we have some sort of thing when you're booking the farmhouse like, "Hey, do you need extra parking? Do you want approval to park on?" We asked that question. That gets Yeah. I mean, things that I'm talking about the proposal of the the footprint of the the parking lot that we're discussing now, the AT. Let's go ahead and just put that footprint in a gravel parking lot. Sure. And then 5 years from now, you've got the base, you got the sub layer. All you got to do is just come put asphalt on top of I mean all

Let me let me let me ask the question because we that uh as we extended AI we had to do a lot more grading. That whole project cost us about $27,000 off the top of my head. And that's a big parking lot. Well, it's not. Well, no. It's a lot bigger than it was for sure. But but a lot of that was grading from the hill down. this this is not going to require a lot of grading and then as you said then you're putting a base in that and if if the space is probably smaller than 18 cuz we

uh if if I'm using that number or saturated with it then what you're probably talking about at least as an initial phase one is probably $15,000 right yeah somewhere there I'm I'm just waiting it based on one one data point that Mike Stone and I both know something about. But well, we've done gravel parking lots before. What

I'm just saying. My point is I if if we take Brock's term and provide parking 15,000, it may be below what we need, right? But I would put it in at $15,000 and and in next year as a as a first step gravel parking lot with a good base to build on that might be done in the second year to put the asphalt down. That's that's a great idea. Yeah. How does it compare to the gravel lots we've built? I think the one up there cost on Lynville cost 10,000. Oh, how much? 25. How much do you think this would cost to do 18 spaces?

I think it would be worth 57. I'm just basing it on what what we did three three years three years ago. 50. Yeah. Okay. I mean, if you think it's more than 15, we put 20. It's not 100. Yeah. But it's it's all right. I would like to say, you know, this is where Miguel drew in a parking lot for the farmhouse. So, again, that was our top priority. We're not trying to create a parking debt for but because of because of cost would Sure. I

to do a a as Brock suggested a step one step two uh get the get the gravel set up and then maybe maybe year two we can put the asphalt. All right. I is there a rule that the parking lot I guess even as it stands now is there any rule about who can park there? Like could people park there to just walk their dog? Sure. Sure. Or is there Well, it would depend what we decided to do. I mean, typic I think what we had talked about was when there's an event going on at the farmhouse that we think would need that parking, you would put up a sign that says event parking only. So, say you have a small wedding there on Friday night.

It's going to be like the dumpsters last week. Don't bring, you know, here. This is for your garbage and they brought everything, you know. they hold tires, you know, pe people are going to unfortunately do what they want to do for the most part. So I I I think I had some kind of motion in there about 20,000 first year second for a gravel uh parking lot for the 18. I I'm not sure what the call I mean I would and this is just my imagination here. I would think that your upfront cost on doing the first eight is going to be more expensive than the Yes.

Well, here here's the thing. If you're given a budget of 20K and you can't do it for 20K, then you come back to town council. Yeah. But the reality of it is is if that's the budget, then try and get it within budget. No, no. I totally understand that. I'm just Okay. So, that was my suggestion. At least get started to get eight clean spots or whatever the spots are with gravel. So, and and if you know, at least at least I I know some boys from High Point that did a good job at AI. So, and what's your um budget amount for that? I think I said 20 20 20. Okay.

Did you second it? I did. Okay. So, that's a motion seconded. All in favor say I. I. All opposed say no. Okay. And then I think in the notes we say possible future asphalt or something like something like that. And John, back to you. Well, let me let me come back to do we not like we've done in some of some of the things maybe it's here um to evaluate you know future increase parking. We can add a line. That's a different line item. That's what I'm saying.

That's parking lot expansion. Sure. But it's not Yeah, but get it get it on there. Say to be evaluated or whatever. Yeah, it's already there expansion. The comment says adjacent to it can be. Sorry, I was That's why you could just say evaluate options. I have to say we've been saying for years, let's tie this all up and and and evaluate it all at once and it doesn't work. Nothing is happening. I think we need to put about $2 million for parking probably. I mean, it's going to have to be dealt with sometime. I mean, somebody might start dealing with it. All right. All right, John. Thank you. Okay, so we're John.

So, I think we're down to item number five. And thank y'all for that parking lot. I think the sports courts and everybody knows. Thanks. Uh the sports courts are on the top of everybody's list, but why is it number five on yours? Well, I was going to ask that question. These others do they complete the other projects that we've got going on like the parking lot completes the farmhouse.

So, but in in in you know realistic dollar terms of course we don't rate it that way. The sports courts are you know important to us. U but we thought these others kind of completed. Obviously, the new roof is a no-brainer, but the other's completed. Other projects would have to go on. Can I ask a question? If if we do everything that we just talked about above with the exception of gravel versus asphalt, we're sitting here a year from now. Sports courts would be number one. Yes. Okay. That was our and and then shade structures, baseball field paved outside.

I think parks and wreck was also cognizant of the fact that in year one we don't have the $2 million needed for the sports courts. Right. Tie the other loose ends together. Yeah. And so they thought those are the doable projects that were priorities. That's why I asked the question to John that this becomes next year. Okay. I think you promised uh Mr. agrees that that would be number one. But but wait a minute. So we're just sports courts now,

right? And and this is where I I've I've spoken to everybody that was willing to talk with me about this. There is an option available that would reduce the cost of the sports courts and get them pushed into starting this year and probably into the 2728 to get this done. And it's as simple as taking the footprint out of Heritage Farm Park where we've already had comments about noise and we don't have parking and so on and so forth. That is a 1.1 acre pad that is positioned there and move it to the Redmond field where we do Heritage Day which is a 1.39 acre location. You could pick it up and you could move it there. There's already 54 spaces there. Now do the quick math. Eight pickle ball, two tennis courts, and a basketball court. If you were playing doubles in pickle ball, doubles in tennis, and had two basketball teams, and there was 10 people, and they all drove their own cars, there's enough parking there for everybody to participate on the sports courts at the same time. We don't have to build parking. Got a bathroom there, got a picnic shelter there, got a playground there. It's adjacent to the trail, the the the the walking path. We just picked it up and moved it and solved that problem over there and can use that area for Heritage Day. We can use it for other things looking forward into the future. What are we going to do? So if if 18 space is $100,000, then 50 spaces, which we would need over there, that's in our

proposal, which was 1.6. you're probably talking about 1.1 now by removing the parking part of the project. So now we're at 1.1. If we take some of the money and move it around um and ask Readington Reeves to give us estimates on that, if we can get it to 1.1, we could take a million dollar from that $2 million we have sitting in reserves and get this thing taken care of.

And it'd be a lot under that, too. I mean, that also included um a bunch of lighting that we wouldn't have to do right away. uh included the fitness center we wouldn't have to do right away like you know it's it could be divided up I think well and that's why I think it's important to get Readington Reeds in front of us so that we can talk about do do we just put in the the infrastructure for lighting because look let's face it if we don't put lighting for sports courts then it becomes self-regulating right they're not going to be playing at 9:30 at night in the winter time because it's dark outside you know that we it helps to selfre I'm not suggesting we don't like the courts. But what I'm saying is is that it's one of these things that could be done in phases of that and save money.

Where did this come from? Um I put that together. Yeah, cuz it's so you know like when he discussed with me so to buy I kind of thought there was so many benefits to it that I kind of wanted to outline in a a diagram and as I showed here I don't know that necessarily the basketball court would fit in there if we wanted to which I think would be prudent kind of earmark some space for if we had to be in the parking lot um over there because if you go over there the way the parking is laid out um as I depicted in a crew diagram it kind of curves around to where you could have it curve around and have additional parking spaces there for like 40 extra parking spaces in the future if needed. Where are you talking about 40 spaces?

She's talking about a Heritage Park here. No, at the Redm Field. If we had the tennis and pickle ball here, you could earmark this for future parking. Is this a decision we can make today? I think we're talking about if we broke it into smaller chunks, maybe we could put an individual item on this. Let me let me see based on where we are today and what's in here. We have asked Remington Reeds to put together a borderline plan for Heritage Farm Park Sports Course, right? That's that's what we've done

based on a master plan. based on based on the master plan that's been approved. You're you you assume that everything's here and it's right in your in your mind. I'm s saying it's a whole new concept that at best needs to be fleshed out before we put anything in here. Yes. Well, so but but to do that but to do that you would have to ask more work from some consultant to evaluate this plan and that's that's not in this today

and you have to stop the the Revington Reeves project completely change the scope and probably pay more because you'd be looking at two different sites. Well, I don't know if you would stop. Well, they can't go forward. you you can't have them go forward and design something if you think you might not build it unless what you really want to do is design two options in which case we already know the cost would almost double well so that's why before we had the kickoff meeting with them um like I discussed Bill hey there might be some kind of changes uh and he advised me that we could do that prior to the kickoff meeting or in the kickoff meeting with and that's why Bill had said that we could do oh Bill

yeah and so that's why he said you know if we go ahead and move forward with the contract then we can discuss any changes for potential changes. And that's why now we're discussing in the CIP meeting the sports courts how we could maybe move up and reduce that scope so that we get it done earlier. And that's where I kind of outlined some options there that we could bring to revenue in this in this session. We're talking about how we can move to sports talking about capital.

Well, I I talked to Mark Reeves after our conversation said, "Hey, just listen. there's this that's kind of in the background. He said if that's what council decides they want to do, we just renegotiate the fee and we assign them reassign their work. So will do whatever it is the town council wants them to do. Yeah, they haven't wasted any money yet, right? Well, they they're surveying, but if you were going to do basketball courts, it they'd still probably need the survey. So what does it take to get in front of the council in front of residents? A majority of council in favor of re redoing the plan.

We need to get a part from that to discuss this. Well, they can they can Yeah, John, what are your thoughts on that? you know, it it it's kind of new concept, but if it if it works and fits and it's a better deal, I would like to mention it. And I'm not sure um grants I'm not sure if it differs if we get can get grant money for the farm park to to build the sports courts versus the grant money is different or not available at the town park. I I am not sure. Well, the basketball court would still, I believe, be over at Harris front park. I don't think it would all fit. Okay. So, we would have So we wouldn't be able to apply for a part F grant because we wouldn't have as many components.

Have three elements. What? Have three elements. But you're more competitive if you have more, which is why we added more over there.

But but if we take the more over there and move that more over here, it's more. Look, all I'm asking is we we obviously know that we're not going to put it in here this year. We could if we wanted to spend the money taking a million dollars from the the $2 million that we have sitting aside for that emergency fund thing. But all I'm suggesting is is that we get Revington Reeves in front of us and we put into next year's budget to fund phase two. We've heard the commitment from parks and recck. We've heard from the citizens that say this is the number one priority. And I would hope that five elected officials would be able to listen to those two groups and go, "Yeah, we need to put this on play." It it concerns me that we're putting off basketball because that has also scored really well.

Basketball. What? Nobody used to put off basketball. So basketball's going to be the other court. How can you do all of that? Go down to the bottom line because in year three we're at about 16 uh 1.6 million. That would bring us down to Oh, I see. It's gone up a little. Okay. architects going to charge difference. So if you take 1 million out in year 1, you're down to 9655. That's low for my taste. And you're down you're down to 780 in year in year three, right? Well, depends on what we spend in years two and three.

Yeah. And that's it's only it we only have really only have to look out a year. And this rolls. I understand it rolls, but the thing about it is it it rolls because we next year we will not have a $224,000 um availability fee. We won't have a $393,000 core loop. We won't have a lot of stuff. It everything ratchets over and stuff drops off and stuff picks up.

I'm I'm not comfortable with making a change this big. We did this plan with expert assistance from McGill and survey data and I am just not comfortable on the fly reconfiguring this based on and no offense but what you did on your computer. Um well that's why we have the designers. We're just before we waste the designers time if we have a better idea and a better design and location is just relocating things but you're talking about

this is like an explore options thing. I don't I am no I am not convinced that this fits beautifully into over there in Oakidge Town Park. I I am not convinced without a professional guiding us on this.

We want to talk to designer. That's why exactly that that's the whole point is if we can get a meeting with Parks and Wreck and Readington Reeds to talk about these ideas and options and see how much money we can save off of it because everybody knows that 50 parking spaces costs a bunch of money. You know, they're they're proposing the parking spaces over there and it's a boatload of money. So, if we can avoid some of that by making some adjustments to the plan, why wouldn't we want to Well, but you also said you thought more parking spaces would be needed even over at Oakidge Town Park. And I'm uncomfortable with that as well. Well, wait, what do you mean? But it's the same.

I thought you said I wrote down that even over at Oakidge Town Park, if you moved all this stuff over, you would need more parking space. I'm saying the designer could potentially say could eater future parking expansion area. So it right away or or or over heritage part that's why what's what is

if we want to explore this kind of idea we need to simply to I mean this is not a Revington Reeves this is a master planning exercise if we ask Revington Reeves to do this we're going to be paying them and I would I would assume we would be paying them significantly more because they're looking at they're doing like right now they've got clear margin marching orders and now we're telling them, "No, no, no. Evaluate these three options. I I'm very confident in the planning that went into putting this and the way, you know, remember how we worked out all the details of how it laid out at Heritage Farm Park. I am confident in that. I have no confidence in this.

I don't want to explore." Yeah. If we can if we can save $700,000, I don't know that I don't know that we can, but $5,000 to to have a conversation over and to have a phased approach as well. We can start giving what we promised soon or we can do, you know, sports courts one year, maybe basketball splash pad one year, maybe ice one year.

I mean, I know you this is your first year on council, but we've heard repeatedly that doing those three court projects together saves significant cost because of the mobilization to get all those surfaces out there and doing it. Um, and we've heard that from everybody we've worked with. So, splitting it up, I I get I get what you're saying, but I would rather save our town money in the long run rather than rush into something headlong that we don't have a firm plan for. Sports courts has been on Sports Courts has been on the planning for as long as we've had town, right? We have a plan now.

At what? I'm I At what point are you going to say let's build the sports courts because you've been against it all this time? No, you never voted to move the money into here. It's always been keep pushing it out. Okay. You have just made an irrational claim. I have always been for the sports courts and never funded. Hang on. We have not had the money to fund them. I have been in favor of keeping our operating cushion at 2 million. I'm listening to you on that and that's a new way to think of it. I don't want to dip any one penny below 1 million in any year. Okay? Really, I'd rather stay at 1.5 million if we're going to adjust that.

But the only reason I haven't, and it wasn't me, it was an entire council. No one said, remember last year we said, "Well, let's move it in and just go into the red." And even our finance officer said, "Well, we can't really do that." So, we haven't been able to move it in because we haven't had the funding. No, we've spent the funding on the others. Well, and I have a question for John. So, I know when we moved here, I know at one point I did see tennis courts on the plans in the original Oakidge Town Park. And it might have even been in this area that we're talking about now. Do you know where they were originally located? I don't recall. I I don't I don't I don't I think what we didn't have a spot for them yet.

I No, I saw them on planets. I yeah on park for sure. Oh it it was right. It was where Lindsay showed him but it was like it wasn't an engineered plan. Right. No, it was this is where we would propose. It was earmarked for that. So look, let let me let me see if we can do this

rather than make a motion on it just just to to summarize this thing down. parks and recck says they'll move this to number one for next year. Citizens have already voiced their opinion. This is the number one priority. Can we get five town council members to agree that what we'll do because we can move it every year? Can we put $1 million into the line item for sports courts for the 2728 and ask to have a meeting between Parks and Wreck and Revington Reeves to get estimates on options?

Parks and Rec doesn't meet with somebody that we've hired. That's not appropriate. Yeah. And I'm not sure what Revington I don't know that they could give estimates until they've done some work. So I think that the step would be to ask Revington Reeves to revise to to to give us a proposal on how much it would cost for them to whatever you want evaluate it and give us cost estimates. How much are we willing to spend on that? I'm just testing the question. Well, yeah. I don't know. I mean, how it would be the same as we're paying revenue.

How much do you think it would cost to to ask them to come and sit with us and and explore other options? I I I don't know. But I don't know what you get out of that other than they would probably say, "Okay, we understand now what you want us to propose." You know what I mean? Okay. Are you saying they need clear marching orders? Otherwise, what you're doing is saying, and this is what I actually hear happening is that they have a marching orders right now. And I think what we're actually doing is saying, "Okay, give us an estimate for that

and then give us an estimate for this sort of alternate plan and tell us, you know, I mean, and in doing that, they would see if it fits." So to me that would be the better choice is to is to if this is what council wants give them this and say can you add this to your scope of work. In other words do the design that you've already told them to do. Tell us how much it's going to cost. You think it's going to cost. Do this also and tell us how much you think that's going to cost. We're paying them 139,000 now. It's going to be $200,000.

Yeah. I think Yeah. Why don't we just start by if we could you said they're doing surveying now could they just do surveying of that area and say will it fit or not right I mean they could say that they still don't pay 5 or 10 grand for surveying yeah but I'm saying at least that would allow us to explore it if they say yes it would fit or no we have hired them and we need to keep their their scope of work needs to be clear it can't be just we'll do this and then we'll tell you what more we want. we're we've signed a contract with them.

And I know they're willing to alter the contract, but you can't say, "Well, now we just want to do this first part and then tell you what the rest of it." I mean, that that's not good business. And one of the things we pride ourselves on in Oakidge is is planning. And we've done lots of planning to get us to this point. And now we're sort of doing a summer field where we're saying, "Well, hang on. Let's plan it all over again, maybe twice." I I can't support that. Bill Just throwing a number out because it was asked if we asked Revington Reeds if we gave them an additional $60,000 or or budgeted $60,000 could they with the work that they're doing

look at alternatives about that. We don't we're just in the I I'd have to You can't speak for them. I don't talk to them. Why didn't we I'm going to I'm going to ask a question. Why didn't we come up with this before now? We did and it keeps getting up. I've never heard anybody ever mention it. Yeah, I've never heard it. Well, I've never heard it. Then you're not listening because I brought it up last year and I've brought it up before. Did you hear it, Jim? Did you remember discussing that over there? Well, either way, I mean, I'm new to the council. I Is council asking me directly? Can I ask him a question? I don't remember it personally. No, I don't. I don't know.

And I'm not saying it's a wrong idea, but I I'm going down the road that hell, we already got a contract. maybe it's a good idea or not. So, we can't keep we can't come down to the end and change our minds. Well, that's where I mean they'll advise us if there are some changes that we can discuss that in a kickoff meeting. And I mean, as a contractor, I've been in that situation before where are we going to do this work, but they might say, "Hey, Lindsay, can you assess, you know, do an additional feed study on this or something and then see if it is feasible to do this extra work?" You're right about that and I've dealt with that before too, but I've never had someone say, "We're going to redo the entire project." We don't know if we will.

We're not doing Look, if we could save, this is the root of the issue. If we could save a half million on a $1.6 million project, would you not want to explore that option? That's the question. I understand, but last year we were in such a hurry just to get an engineer. You didn't have you didn't bring this up.

Well, but wait, I did bring it up. But they're going to look Let me finish. I did bring it up and and when we had the conversation about it, it's no, we've already got it on the plan for Heritage Farm Park. And I said, fine. And we move forward. Well, we're not moving forward. Now, put your hand down. I'll get to you in a second. No, no, wait a minute. Mr. Green said had a question to Mr. Kinnaman that has not been honored and you jumped in on top of that. So Mr. Don't tell me to get my hand down other places. Come a little closer to y'all stop. Stop right now. We're not born here. We're not going to get on pissing.

I didn't start that. I'm just saying stop.

No, I'm trying to get Mr. Greas's question answered by the former mayor. My recollection that is that Jim can have an 8502 report. Um my recollection is that consideration to put it over there has been made in the past but also there's been a limit on how much buildout we've agreed to do over there. That was one of the issues they brought up was that hey that park has been built out to the level that we wanted to be built out to. Also, I think that we've discussed about the fact that that makes that would make it very very visible from the road, which is something we tried to avoid. That's my recollection and that's some of the reasons why I believe it was

not considered. If it was considered, I don't recall it being considered much in the last two years though. That's my considered correct discuss. Yes.

Now, the issue becomes one of okay and this is for the last two years. Okay. and we put it at Heritage Farm Park and as soon as we start doing development ideas over here, then we get this thing about the noise and you know that you know it's going to bother people and and the placement of it because there's a All I'm asking is if we could save a half million on a 1.6 project, wouldn't we want to explore that?

Okay, I I see your point. However, I we have done a lot of work that we would be flushing down the toilet in order to do that and we would be spending at least another 60 I would estimate 70 or 75 to get this planned out and incorporated into the current Revington Reeves project. So, I'd say we're flushing a whole lot of money down the toilet, which I think is not in the town's best interest. So, you would you spend 60 or $70,000 to save a half million? we'd be losing a lot of the part of grant. We'd be losing a lot of the planning that we've already been done. What?

We don't have a part of grant for the sports course. we're going to try to get that was the the plan that we've talked about several times is that once we know we have once we know that we have how whatever the number is that we can put into our 5-year plan in the year prior to that in the March of the year prior to that we can submit a part of grant and the estimate that we had very rough from McGill was that based on the five or six elements we were putting in over there we could maybe get $125,000 part grant that's meaningful and we wouldn't be flushing money down the toilet. So that's basically 250. And you're saying, "Okay, we save a million." I didn't say a million. What did you say? Save half million.

Save a half million on a $1.6 million project. Yeah. I'm Does the parking That's an estimate that you have today that hasn't been validated by anybody with any professional expertise. It's the parking. That was a parking lot, but it was like half a million dollars. Does the parking I thought it was 250. Does the parking go towards the part of grant requirements? Yes. Yes. So parking is is a facility. Yes. Okay. Well, also I mean yes, but

I would like to propose that we add a million dollars to the fiscal year 2728 for sports courts. So 2627 or 2728. 2728. We know we're not going to build it this year. Is that a motion? Always be moved. Yeah, a motion. Yeah, it's a motion. I'll make I'll second. Does that involve discussing? We're not discussing that right now. No, it not the other

because it'll all build on that. So, if all this is is putting on the CIP a million dollars, you know what? If we're going to do No, I'll leave it at a million for for Yeah, cuz it's it says 1.6 from parks and recck, but I'm not sure about the other thing if that's going to pass. I don't I'm not willing to make that decision today. So, what number would you put on? Well, I'm not willing to make a decision today about moving the location. Oh, I agree. All I'm asking is to put on the CIP. Let's just say $1.6 million. Let's just move that to 2728. We can always move it.

1.6 million for 2728 1.630. He just said 1.6. You changed from 1 to 1.6. If you look at that column 6 years plus, it says 1.630. I know. But you had said previously it would only cost a million. And that's what you want. moves. That's assuming we here we part. Yeah. So I don't I don't know. All right. Well, the proposal was there for a million 1.6 $1.6 million. So you're amending your motion?

Yes. $1.6 million 2728 based on park and Rex uh priority and the the estimated cost. So I just Oh, go ahead. That's it. That has it been seconded as revised? Okay. I would just want to look at the spreadsheet and see if that puts us in the red or puts us under uh ideally 1.5 million in our general fund, but we'll wait till Sean finishes. We've lost connecting our encoder. We didn't need to quit. Mhm. And can I just say I can't speak for the whole parks group, but I would anticipate if everything else is done

just by by default, the sports courts a year from now should be the top of the list, but I can't speak for the rest of but but I I certainly feel that. We're getting close to half of the Is that the last topic we got? Um yeah, you see the bottom line numbers. Yep. And so John, I don't recall. So what were your thoughts on the the relocation or considerations for that? You know,

I'm not sure about you, Lindy. Honestly, it, you know, I'm not sure if it's a fit. It could be, you know, and we're I'm personally all up for to look at look at all options and and we we again, it's all kind of new, but it work we say what can we think of that, you know, but I appreciate your looking at that cuz you know that's how you come up with the best solution. And it wasn't even my idea. It just the more I kind of thought on it just if we have if you can I ask bro do you have a a gut feeling good good or bad or no wise

all right so okay so you wanted to see the So I put 1.63 million in 2728 Uhhuh. And of course understanding that we would want to pull a million from the Yeah, look it puts us down under 500,000, right? But if we but again if we pull a million from the reserve the No, no, we can't pull a mill that's already that's the reserve like we were talking about the fund balance I thought. Yeah. So that that has brought our fund balance down to well under a million and that's that's not reasonable.

And that's why looking at this the only way that we're ever going to do it is if we do break it down into more digestible pieces so that we could say you know phase 2 a sports courts phase 2B basketball and maybe splashback phase 2 C parking right otherwise we're never going to save up enough money. We are gonna save up enough money. Hang on. Would you do me one favor? Would you move that? Uh let let's see what it looks like putting it out in year five. Here we go.

Well, I'm just It is a budgeted year. We're trying to get to where we can budget it, but we're trying to be fiscally responsible here. I I thought we were fiscal conservatives for the most part here. fund balance. So the fund balance drops too low in that final year. Yeah. Any year that we put the sports courts in it has impact. If we build it as proposed, we might get up to 125,000 in part. I I see that. I see that. I'm just trying to think of what else we could do to make that work.

Raise taxes. Look, when you build something big, it is better you build it all at once. 900,000 and 2728 and then I mean, if you did sit here and look at it, we're never getting there. Sorry, council. I'm I'm sorry. I just need y'all to speak one at a time because so I can pick it up on the recording. Sure. Don't talk to each other. 730 and then so if we but that number is going to be inflated after 5 years. It's not going to be okay there and what's left over. What do you think?

Just 500,000. I said this no longer going to be $1.6 million in 5 years. It's going to be like 2.2 or 2.3. Right. The longer we we keep talking about this and shoving it out, the more expensive it's going to get. What does that do? I think you're still just spreads it out. So basically, I mean, as far as what we can afford at 2728 is 800,000 basically. That would keep it down 1.18, but then you would have to 1.1 more money.

Yeah. So basically 800,000 we could afford 2728 which if we look at the original estimates from McGill if we took out all the bells was took out the parking took out you know basketball we could certainly do the sports in a new location for 800,000. Sam, did I ask you a question? Yes. What kind of a tax increase will we need to pay for this? Triple. Oh, no. To pay for sports courts to pay for what kind of tax increases we need to to spend that one time. Yeah, they're 530 out there. Let's say I mean that statistical

I mean we got we only bring in what 800,000 a year. So taxes and sales tax it's it flows with it. Um that's right.

Basically this this is rough but basically um a pennies bring in a little over 100,000 of raw tax because of the property tax. um to do 1.6. You're talking about doing one time, you'd be looking at like 24 cents at least. That's three three times the tax rate right now. Yeah. If you wanted to do it one time, I don't got to do it one time. I don't think anybody would be How much did you get? 24 cents.

About 24 cents to do it all on top of what we already That's a lot of money. So that's how about 16. Well, take it at roughly 100,000 a penny about 16 cents on top of the 8 cents. But then there's the sales tax component. You'll get some sales tax in there. So your actual yield number will be a little lower. Well, there's the rebound component, too. The rebound is coming. That is a that is an issue. Um because reevaluation we're hearing everything from 40 to 50% increases. Don't we have to do something according to the charter that if we go over 20 cents we have to put it to a vote there.

I was just I wasn't really serious. Yeah, I'm just saying that's another step we break new rule you going from 800,000 to if have assuming a 50% increase on you go from 800 to 1.2 that give you an extra 400,000 per year into the flow. So in here, this number would go from 550 to 950. That's a hell of a nobody around here anymore.

Yeah. See what other tax not that

it's an interesting me exercise, but I don't think it's realistic. I want to raise one other point that you know I was talking about the importance of planning and then this is sort of thrown out regardless of what you're saying this has not been thoroughly vetted and planned by folks who are professionals and one of the things that also we haven't thought about is wait a minute if if we say oh man that that parking lot we use it all basically for pickle ball and remember pickle ball people it's not just who's playing on the court in tennis court in pickle ball they come you know like six people are waiting for each court. I mean, that's what we've heard is the social uh aspect of pickle ball and we've already got a playground and a shelter over there and people who park over there to walk and we can't forget the needs of those existing facilities. So, we

that's why we would have earmarked space for additional parking which there is space for that. Yeah. I I just I I know you've done good leg work, but I'm just not I'm not convinced yet because I feel like there are probably five other things that we haven't thought about yet because this hasn't been fully vetted. And I think the noise issue right there next to a residential neighborhood, I think we'd be asking for uh a lot of that with the ADHD accessible. Yeah. I mean, we've already got that issue over here. We put it over here. Our next door neighbor's driveway to the cell phone tower, right? There's a whole neighborhood there.

It starts in and that property is for sale. Oh, I understand that. Can we buy it? How much is 925,000? Okay. Where are we on this? I don't see a way. Well, so that's I was breaking it down. We did 800,000. I feel like we could do the sports courts. just that little blue rectangle sports sports, pickle ball, tennis for 800,000 max. Then the next year, that would be basketball, potentially splash pad, whatever way you see is appropriate for the next year. And then the 530, that's if we need to add parking at some point or lighting at some point.

But let's look at the bottom line. And also, we haven't typically added things to actual numbers to the CIP without some level of professional estimate. No estimates. Okay. not separated. Those were based on doing it all together. I had line items in the deal, right? But it was based on doing it all together. There's a mobilization cost. And I asked him that question specifically several times. And he showed me some of the lines that I can't remember right now that would be much more expensive if you broke it up. We're never gonna save up 1.6 million. Of course we are.

Um I mean that's our goal. I mean that's what we're trying to do. That's our vision is to do this right and save up for it. Isn't that what you do in your family? So if we ask well well sometimes you can do what renovation in phases. If I said I want to renovate my entire house and it was 1.6 million. I might say let me do you know the kitchen and bathroom here. That's my high priority and I can get that done. Granted, yes, you might save money overall, but I might think there's no way I'm saving up a million dollars to do my whole house at once. So that's what I'll do. And I think if we ask the citizens, hey, do you want it broken up to at least get something in the next couple years or wait until who knows when we'll save up?

It's starting to look like that. We're going to have to break it up if we ever want to get anywhere cuz even if you go out to 20 30 20 30, we still don't have it. Yeah. But see, that's a great point. We're not going to solve that.

So, so here's the thing. It that takes us back to the crux of this. If we put 1.6 $6 million as a stakeholder for ne for the 2728. The numbers are what they are. We can always move that out. But that that pushes us into a situation where we have to go, okay, we need to talk with Revington Reeds because between now and this time next year, we need to have a plan. Can we do this or not? Or do we end up moving it out another year or whatever the case may be? If they can say you can save money by doing this instead of that that and they may be able to help us understand if you're going to break this thing into separate projects we'll do this in year 1 this in year two this in year three. Getting the professionals involved in that makes perfect sense. My motion was just to put $1.6 $6 million into 2728 and get a meeting with Readington Reeves to get them up to speed on what we're doing here and then figure out if if the town council needs to vote to spend some extra money so that we can get them to give us the professional advice. Then listen, then that'll come before the town council.

I I don't know why you need to move the number to get what you are looking for, but because we keep moving this number years and years and years out and we just had the conversation that based on that spreadsheet that we're never going to have enough money to do this.

Sam, do you have any ideas? I saw you. I didn't know if you had it. You wanted to couple of things. Let me preface this by I'm getting ready to talk about tax rate. Let me preface this by as I told the town of the uh fire department board last night and we're starting the budget cycle with Guilford County. We got preliminary numbers coming out. Um anything that I say in regards to rates and estimates has to be taken with a grain of salt because um Guilford County is expecting record appeals. So numbers are going to be moving all the way up to and in the month of June. Um with that said, rate neutral at our existing 8 cents would yield estimated right now this ballparking this would be the extra 400,000 a year. In 5 years that's $2 million. In four years is the 1.6 million you're discussing. That is and I'm not talking about palletability but that is a financial calculation solution right

then it would come to the point nobody likes their taxes to go up I don't however we have to face the reality we do have inflation um next door at the fire department we're getting ready to take delivery on a on a truck next week they're flying to Nebraska In 10 months, we had a 20% increase just on that one item. And that's, you know, don't like it. It's never happened in history. That's the reality we have to live with. Um, we're amending our long-term capital plans for those kinds of issues. But the solution if the citizens want it and that's your perception the rate structure that we've got now at revenue neutral would not support it. Rate neutral would support this project in a better time frame. The differential from history is that we have had big projects before but we have always held one project and when it was done then we went to the next. The first was the town hall then the town park um and then Heritage Farm Park um you know great structures and all that in you know get into it. We've had a history of paying off early. Um, right now depending on what I can get on earnings, the more logical would be to hold off on a 3.9 payoff or you know the problem there is if we try to do a refi, we're going to lose that rate. So that's going to be a rate question. But from a numeric standpoint, um, and again, this would soften somewhat if we could know what's going to happen with sales tax, but we don't know because as I've told y'all, you know, every year it's

like a slice of pie and each person's ratio with their tax rate um affects it. And then we've also got in Guilford County um the giveaway to Stokesdale by them not following state law. They got an exception law. So they get that 5 cents. That is a slice of the pie that's going to come out. Um and we we've never had that. We don't know what the calculation will look like for this next year, but numerically um the rate neutral would yield the funds to fund and make this project come about. Um so that isn't I just put that out as a option

in year what did you say? Year four. Well, if it's yielding an extra $400,000 and you dedicate that to this, then you could have that money up in four years. 5 years would be 2 million. Four years is a million. So, you're saying that if we keep the tax rate at 8 cents and we're hoping, of course, that the county absorbs some of the uh reval increase, right? They say they're going to go down to a 10 or 20% increase. So, our citizens are sitting there and they're going to have a, you know, 20% increase instead of a 45% increase possibly. But you're saying with that additional revenue from the reval,

which I don't like to count on, but um it is coming and we do have the choice. With that additional money, it would add $400,000 to the bottom line of our tax revenue approximately and then we could do the the whole kitten kaboodleoodle in year four. Now we don't know that today but we'll know that by next year's CIP.

Then the other caveat is and me and Bill have talked about this and and there's a planning document that's prepared uh for the county by um jointly the Northwest departments is how it's being called Oakidge Stoell summer um and in there they had pulled growth data. Oakidge is pro projected to grow somewhere about 8 to 10%. Somefield 10 to 12 14 depending on the estimate. Stokesdale is somewhere in the neighborhood of u 12 to 18%. Because basically the caveat there from the uh calculations was based on the availability of land. So, our growth is going to go a little slower. I do believe in the future just simply because the easy developable land is primarily gone. We will have additional housing. However, the um and this was brought up last night in the meeting. The average cost of a house in Oakidge, one of our board members that saw an estimate that it was averaging about $800,000. So, we are going to have some base growth if not in broad numbers and valuation. Um, and then we may get other properties coming in. I I've got a call. I've got to return in the next 48 hours from a neighbor who has a huge track of property and wants me to talk with them on the pros and cons of annexation voluntarily coming in because it is a land and they know we've got a land and we voluntarily annexed. But, you know, your letters have gone out on that. So, we may get some growth from voluntary annexation also. Um,

so does that mean that those um revenue figures um are are a little low even Well, I guess we don't know what the tax Well, even even with increases in revenue, I mean, our expenses are we're going to have an inflationary effect also. That's a

What does it look like, Bill, when we put in the 1 million when we just put in uh 900,000 and we didn't put in the other money? Um what if we put that in year three as a compromise? Let's see what it would do there. And then what and then put an additional 730 or 750 or whatever it is over there to the right um in the red. So that what we would be doing is putting into the CIP what we think we can afford. Then by then we're going to have the analysis and design done and we'll see can we do something for that 900 or can we make these various things that t that Sam has described. So, where are we're still low?

8 880. We're getting close, though. What's our debt on the park in three years, Bill? It'll be around. Do you have that number? Did we look at that? It's It's in Sam's thing. And I know it was around 2 million. Four years. It was by 2000. I thought we were 2008 was going to be like $1.9 million. It's two basically we pay 200,000 a year in principal plus interest. So, it's still way out there. Well, it's 2.4.4 now. So, and and and I guess it means two. And in April, April 14th, it'll be 2.2. The following year it'll be two. Then 1.8 uh is three years out.

Take a quick break. Sorry. 1.8 is 3 years out. You beat me to you. Way back. Yes. Well, that that 1.6 number is going to be 3 years. Four years going to be 2.1. 1.6 is four years. So, we're just trying to chase it. Exactly. And we don't have any money. We're never going to save up. So, I don't know. I mean, when we had 800,000 next year, the numbers were fine, right? What else do we have to do? Well, the here's the reality of it is that it it you have to do it fast. Well,

it's not anything 28, but it was 800,000 every time. I think it was still below. Well, you could take the 400,000 extra income for next year and then build it in phases. Yes. by keeping the tax rate the same. By keeping the tax rate the same, recognizing that the argument is the historic argument is you raise taxes on us. Still, and we we have to be clear. We raised the tax rate, but that that has the effect.

We don't take the tax neutral, we're never going to get that. If we go tax, if we if you go to tax neutral, we'll never,

you know, we we won't have anything else. So, Bill, let me just throw back on there for one final talk. Take that 800,000, put it back to 1.63, and then go down the bottom line, and the fund balance dips down to 454 at 150. Let's remember that that's a self-imposed number. We say we don't want to go below a million. If you can see on that spreadsheet, we go down to 454 and then based on the other things that have been pushed forward into future years, it drops down to 150,000. But then based on spending, that number continues to go up and up and up.

Are you comfortable with 150,000? I'm just saying that we won't be at 150,000 because it at 1.6 when we get to this conversation next year, we will have fleshed out the conversations about the tax rate. We'll have fleshed out conversations about uh the project itself and can we split the project up or can we relocate the sports courts and all that and we'll have more information. Putting a $1.6 $.6 million stake in the ground for uh the parks and wreck and for the citizens and for the town council at least says that we're serious rather than continuing to kick this can down the road.

We're just playing a game putting it there. But if we split it all down, like even if we don't relo have money if we if we're not concerned about you can put it on there. I can put on there that I've got a mozzarella. I don't think it's responsible to show a fund balance going that low. Yes. That's why if Bill just had the 800,000 in 2017, everything was fine. And this is Are you going to go against Are you going to go for tax neutral next year? I hope so. Yes. Well, then go. The point is we've had this conversation.

But we've had this conversation. This does not take into account the the balance of $2 million, taking it down to a million and spending that money to help fund part of this. Wait a minute. This includes 1.6 million. So that is too low for our fund balance for four out of the five years. We cannot responsibly approve a CIP with those numbers.

Yes. So, can can we have 800? And can everyone please see what I'm talking about? Because it seems like I I don't see the downside of having 800. Even if we don't relocate the sports courts, we could say and even if we might not save as much money, at least we can do something and pay for the sports courts, add that money, and have a fine balance. Yeah, that was what I was proposing as a compromise. put in what we can afford, which we can sort of barely afford that. I don't like the 980, so you know. Well, that's close. Yeah. Okay. $20,000. So, I make a motion to put in a million dollars for 2728 for sports courts. A million or sorry,000. Yes.

Hold on. We We have a motion in a second. Uh, look, you know what? I'll I'll um I'll modify my motion to put $800,000 into the 2728 budget for sports courts. And are you going to put an additional amount in the outy years? Like an additional Yeah. So bills go back up there. Do we need to put down there? We know that it's not going to all be built. It'll have to be peaceful. That'd be a million dollars out there. Well, well, unless you could borrow the other balances down there by that time. That's what we just looked at. It's the same because the numbers out here.

Okay. So, don't factor in. So, yeah, if we have to peace mill this thing from that point forward, $800,000, we still got $800,000 left plus inflation. I mean, how do you want to do it? Million dollars a year. See what that looks like? I mean, we could maybe skip 20. Maybe 2930 300,000

and then 530. Good thing about this, we just continue setting records. Continue what? No, no, we're so good. You're you're about a half a heart. Yeah, this might be the longest se. So, see, and that's our last one. I mean that 500 that's mostly parking and at that point maybe we could discuss how we're handle parking issues. So, 500,000 in that fifth year, I don't think that's going to be accurate. So, yes, it looks low, but that's also the parking issue. I I which parking issue are you talking? So column column D would be where we'd be at with $800,000. What year? 2728 and then in F we put in $300,000.

Can you refer to the years cuz I Sorry. Okay. 2930. Yeah. So year two would be sports sports. And then year four would be basketball splash whatever else $300,000. And then 30 to 31 gets so low because that's where the $500,000 parking is, which you might not even need. What $500,000 parking are you talking about? From the original 1.6 plan. You mean parking for phase 2? Yeah. Yeah. Was parking $500,000? I mean, not in the pit. Yeah. But again, okay, I'm not going to say it again.

The the Heritage Farm Parking portion of the proposal was half million dollars, but there were fees on top of that at the bottom like construction administration, mobilization was one of them. It all adds up to more construction. Whatever. I I don't have a problem with putting it. Can you make that a little larger? I don't know. Did it get smaller? It did. Or trying to get everything on the screen. Yeah. So, I guess could we put 530 plus then? It's another because we can't be

How did we get down to 9008 and 980? I mean, look, we've been maintaining 2 million. I am not comfortable with this. Now we're not only resetting it to 1 million, but we're going below it and we're saying, "Oh, well, not really 1 million." Okay, fine. If we make 200. That's self-imposed, though. It is, but we stand on the shoulders of a lot of wise council people, and I am not willing to put our town at risk for even for something people want. Well, 908, that's four years now. Say that again. Would you rather have it be 200,000 there? I'd rather it be a million.

Okay. Well, that's what I'm saying. So, instead of 300,000 and 29, just leave that 200,000. Let's just Well, it's it's numbers on the paper that it doesn't mean anything. It we're going to move around next year.

Hang on, hang on, hang on. This is the plan that we sign our names to. Yeah, those numbers good. They're back at me near a million bucks, which is 50% below we've been. But everyone said at least a million, right? I mean, I'm I would really rather have 1.5 million, but I I see people are okay with this. Yeah. Okay.

And I think if you talk to designer, we can figure out how to make those chunks. And but the designer is going to increase your cost.

It's never going to be perfect. Everything's always expensive. But and that was my comment originally for and we don't know what that cost is. But that's why we need to to plan to meet with Remington Reeds so that they understand that there are options that we're willing and interested in exploring to find out if there is savings. Because again, if if the proposal that we got says that 50 parking spaces at Heritage Farm Park is going to cost us a half million, then it's logical that a half million for 50 parking spaces is what it is. If you come over here and you don't build parking, you save a half a billion dollars. It's just math. I'm not saying that there is anything that that just absolutely guarantees that, but that's why we talk to professionals.

All right. And my point is simply that when you do that, it's going to increase your cost of design by probably some something near 100 to $125,000. We don't know that, but yes, it's going to increase. All right. which means that you could be throwing something away but maybe gaining in a different something needs to be put in some year on increasing design costs that today is beyond the scope that we have in front of

well and so you're saying based on doing two whole separate designs like that's why we're having a discussion now to try to avoid them designing a whole thing now we say no never mind we've already given the contract, right? But we could change that, but you're asking them to go back. I don't know how more specifically a whole different option that isn't going to be for free,

right? And I think we would be asking them to in order for us to compare the two plans, we would have to have them flush out both of them to say where can we save money? What how much is the actual cost of this? because this is not a fleshed out plan and we need a it's sort of like we're needing to go backwards and do a new master plan and then do uh the actual plan that design and engineering that we have hired them to do. So there's significant costs. We're flushing other costs down down the toilet. Um that expent money and time we've expended. Um and at the same time, in order to do all this and make you happy,

no, we're reducing our fund balance to half of what it's been for the past, you know, 20ome years. I mean, seems like a bad deal for the res. Stop them from just designing the thing, it's fine with me at this point. I mean, say that again. If they just want to stop designing Well, they haven't started designing. That's the point. That's why we said, we can just take the contract away. No, we can't. Well, I don't know that we can take because we're not going to get anywhere in three or four years.

Of course, we are. That's the whole point is we're going to have a designed plan with updated estimates and it is possible that Revington Reeves with the care and detail they put into it can give us a better lower estimate than what we've gotten from McGill. Yeah, we just like to have the conversation with them to say, "Hey, we want this to be doable in phases because right now we can't afford it at once." And you know, how much would we save by removing parking and relocating a ballpark? I mean, based on the McGill estimates, we would save. Okay. I think we should just Do we have a motion on the table? I think we had several.

We have a motion, but no second. So, what was the motion? Was it 800,000? I never know where we're at anyway. Right. The motion was to put 800,000 into the 2728 year for sports court 293 and then put 200,000 into the 2930. Are you adding that to your motion? All right. Uh cuz I'm looking at the screen. What? All right. 200,000 into the 2930 and 630,000 into the plus six column. I second that.

And that funding came by changing the fund balance from two to one essentially. Okay, that's the motion. But that can be that be changed due to according to tax neutral. Yeah, that we just take wipe it out. Take it all out. Sorry. What are you saying? I'm just saying if we get a taxable next year like right then it gets if he campaigns on that we just wipe it out. Well, this is wipe out those numbers neutral right now. No, this is rate neutral. This is rate neutral means keeping it at 8 cents. It's revenue neutral. We haven't changed. So that's already figured in revenue. Revenue neutral, not rate neutral.

Wait a minute. That's how you figured this. Is it revenue neutral? That's why Sam was talking about we get up. Oh, I thought we had budgeted and rate neutral. Oh, that's what I thought. Oh, I didn't revenue. We'd add 400,000. Yeah, that's what Sam was talking about is that we could increase that. Oh, and then the numbers flesh out really quick. So, even revenue neutral, we can do 800. What? Okay. Okay. Okay. I mean, just because that decision hasn't been made, I'm surprised that it's plugged into the numbers. This is showing 29 the 30 31 or

But does it also I thought it does it include the Oh, so I see. So you're saying revenue neutral? Does it account for any of the growth that we're predicting? We we consistently re hit this number between five and 600,000 every year even though our tax base goes up every year. I see our expenses go up too. So that's a that that number is that but that's the add to the general budget. That's not revenue.

That's correct. But if you were going to add $400,000 of revenue on top of natural growth and natural expenses, I think it's logical to assume that number goes from 550 if you keep if it's rate neutral. Correct. So next year say, "Oh, let's move it all forward." Well, we do have a motion and a second. What is it? I don't even remember what it was. to add $200,000 or I'm sorry, $800,000 to the 2728 line item for sports courts to add $200,000 to the 2930 line item for sports course and add $630,000 for the 6 plus for sports courts.

Revenue neutral. Yeah, we got a second. No, I haven't called that yet. Okay, everybody understand that? I'm not asking if you like it. Do do you understand the motion? I do. All right. All in favor say I. I. All oppose say nay. Nay. Nay. You weren't. I wasn't. All right. Sitting there. That's all it is.

Let me go back to how do we have a discussion with Robington Re? I think that council figures out what they want to do and I go to Mark and ask him for a proposal. I I do not unless we're paying for something different than just design. If we're paying for consulting or master plan work or something like that, I don't even know if they're I mean they're what they bid on was survey and engineering. So, if council wants me to go to Mark and say, "We have an alternate plan. I'd like you to add this to your scope

and do the engineering and the survey work for this alternate plan." I think that's relatively straightforward. Could they do like a feasibility study of it? Um, like a quote on what that would be to do that. I mean, I don't know if I would want to vote for that because I don't know what the numbers going to be, right? No, I'm talking about for Remington race to go to and ask them what. But why don't we let Bill go to him and find out what that number is? Well, I'm sure they're gonna have to come out and look at it do everything that I'm just curious. Didn't they I'm not sure. We have that surveyed already when we build that parking lot. Couldn't we use those? Oh, they'd have to come back out, I'm sure. I mean, they're going to see

pretty old grassy area, too. Oh, yeah. that old future. Nobody would work off a survey that old, I don't think. Well, see, if we just ask them, hey, what would you charge a feasibility study for something like this? You know, I'm not really for it, but if it gets us out of this meeting. Yeah. Look, I mean, really, just to give us near a record, you know, if if Bill can get that information,

then we can talk about it in staff meetings and we can make a decision. Then then council meeting, we can go from there. But we're talking about trying to get information. And I I really can't believe that anybody is opposed to getting information. Well, I don't like doing it this late, but but still, here we are. We should have been last year when we we dealt with this why the mayor didn't allow it. He's here now. It was his fault. So, okay. Whatever. Well, we are putting the current work of Revington Reeves on hold. So, I don't know how anybody could be for that. We're not are we want them to continue to do the design work?

I don't like it, but I don't know. That's a question. That's a good question. Well, it's related to the CIP. I'm sorry. Would it cost money to ask them what they would charge to do a feasibility study? I don't know. And I don't know exactly what you mean by feasibility study. Yeah. Is this other option feasible to even design? Like to where it might include some like surveying and stuff like that. The problem is they can't tell us if it's feasible without ask them. Exactly. So maybe the feasibility study would include okay let's do some surveying and measurements and then yes we can say it's feasible or not and then if they say based on the results of the feasibility study we can say let's look into that or not

I just want to say I mean how well and that's why probably and so if they can tell us how much it would cost then we can decide if we're going to do it or not at least ask I'm not saying I'm against anything I don't like it in this light but just to please everybody that pleases y'all. Well, so you'd agree that we could at least have no ask them stop the project? No, but if we do that like it if we do that and I think and it's got additional cost for I think it's not a good what we have phase two which is 134 right now. That's bound to take everything up to 2 155 for for sure. Well, we're not saying we're going to pay for it. We're just going to ask him to get

you pay for something what it cost. you know, they pro well, they're probably going to say, "Well, we need to go survey it again." Or maybe they'll maybe they will say, "Based on the previous survey, you're talking about this." But we don't know. Well, what did we pay them to give us the 134,000 vote on the other property? We also we didn't even we didn't even that that over there wasn't even or the proposal. Anyway,

y'all go ahead. I think you just have to assume that 134 is going to go up minimum 15 20,000 and then you'll have more in 2020 26 27 I mean that's I I don't I don't know we're out of this good room but you you're going to have to have a conversation right you have to ask the question and have have them help you through feasibility versus surveying designing a uh potential how they would recommend Yeah. moving forward, right? Yeah. To explore. I'll have that conversation. Okay.

Okay. I would suggest if we ever have any more projects, let's do our work up front. Yeah. No more projects. We did our work up front. All right. Yeah, we just we did look at all the alternatives. We did the work up front, but we didn't look at all the alternatives as we understood them in the past. Do we need two years? So, Sandra, do we need a motion to approve the CIP as modified? Isn't that a part of there? Yeah, but typically what we do is Bill takes it back, puts it all on the spreadsheet, and gives it to you guys again, and make sure that it's what you want. Okay.

And then in a council meeting, you get Perfect. So are we'll make a motion of the well public comments. I know

we must allow public comments Jim Kim 8502. One of the things I think you kind of contradicted yourself on is early on Mike Stone made Councilman Stone made a big point about that we need a global solution for parking. My concern is is going with this phase approach where you're not dealing with you're you're basically going to exacerbate your parking situation. Uh but this by the same token with the current plan you could talk to them about phasing what's in over here farm park too. Um so you could do phasing there too. So that's that's a concern there. My a big concern about that, as I mentioned it earlier, was that we've always tried to put our uh facilities back away from the street. And by putting it over here, we're basically going to put it on the street. And that's one of the big concerns I think a lot of people have had is that we tried to put our facilities away from the park. You have this beautiful meadow over here, a field that is there. And I'd be concerned about packing that. Also, I did parks and records talk about the fact that they've basically gone on record saying that this park over there has been built out, that they don't want to put more facilities there. So, those are some of my concerns. Next,

thank you, sir. Do we have a motion to John? Anything else? John Brown, I don't have any face to let me be here. So moved. So motion to adjourn. So moved. All in favor? I'm sorry. Who was the second? Who made the He made the motion. Okay. Thank you. Empty. So seconded. Got it. We're finished. I want to I want to address your only like 12 and a half 13% on that part. Wait, we can't talk anymore about the issue. All right. But it's finished. The meeting's over. person.