Parks & Recreation Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

All right, I will go ahead and call the meeting to order. May we have a roll call, please?

Sterner, here.

Klinkhammer, here.

All right, let's go ahead and stand for the vote.

Do we have any public comment?

There are no public comments.

No public comment. All right. So we'll move right on ahead to our first item here, the approval of the minutes. Everyone had a chance to review the minutes from our February meeting.

I move to approve the minutes as written. I guess I will have to go on. All right. Well, I guess I'm passing the gavel on to Chris, and I will second that motion.

All in favor? I guess it's a roll call vote, so. Yes. And then yes, so that's two. All right, then.

Okay.

And I'll take that gavel back. All right, let's move on to item 26-0610. Presentation regarding Florida statute requirements and recommendations for city policy on historic sites by planning and development.

Good evening. My name is Elena Ray. I'm the director of development services. So development services include planning and zoning, natural resources, building, permitting, Economic Development, Code Enforcement. Did I miss anybody? I think that's it. Lori Barnes, Deputy Director, will likely be here soon. Essentially, we had spoken with your staff liaison a while back. knew that you were wanting to make some changes to. I think the ULDC was proposed to make some changes and a new policy for the commission consideration regarding establishment of historic designations. perhaps historic districts or properties and how to do that. We wanted to provide some information regarding the regulatory framework that we are in, both at the state level and the local level. So your staff liaison graciously worked with us and gave us time to put a presentation together. Our schedules have been extremely busy, so I know scheduling was an issue. But we just wanted to provide some information before you begin considering any recommendations that you might make to the Commission. So the framework that we're dealing with are twofold. One, the Florida statutes. Chapter 163 is the Community Planning Act. That is the act that sets forth all of the statutory regulations that we have to comply with regarding our comprehensive plan and our land development code. It is also the chapter that contains much of the recent legislation that's been passed over the last two years including legislation that's been passed this year and the prohibitions on some of the changes and preemptions to local government, what we can and can't do anymore under state statutes. Chapter 267, of course, is relevant because it's the historical resources chapter, and you're probably very familiar with that, but we'll just do a brief overview of a refresher for anyone who might watch this meeting and yourself as well. And then Chapter 70 is the big stick that we deal with. That's the Burt J. Harris Jr. Act. It is the Private Property Rights Protection Act, and it does provide some pretty significant hurdles for us to deal with in any prohibitions, regulations that we may put on private property. We do have to be very cognizant of that. Excuse me. My voice has been going for a while. Under the local authority, Of course, we have City of Northport Unified Land Development Code, or ULDC. We did adopt a new land development code in October of 2024. That was a monumental effort. But that did designate new zoning codes and new development regulations. ULDC was adopted just prior to the state adopting new legislation. that did preempt us and put some additional prohibitions on what we can do. We'll talk about those prohibitions more in a moment. And then our comprehensive plan is also one of our guiding documents. That is our law here in North Port and local jurisdictions in Florida. All new developments have to comply with the comprehensive plan. So historic preservation in Florida, I'm sure you're familiar with this, but just for the sake of the presentation, I'll do a brief overview. The historic and cultural resources are protected through Chapter 167 of Florida statutes, and the historic preservation laws of the state are overseen by what's called the State Historic Preservation Officers. called SHPO's for short. And Florida's SHPO is the Florida Division of Historical Resources. And they're charged with overseeing nominations processes for national register sites, for administering grant programs, certified local government program, which North Port is not currently. And then also they oversee the Florida Master Site file. and as well as other responsibilities. And we'll talk about that a little bit as well. So what's a stark property? It's kind of subjective, but everybody kind of has an opinion. We're fortunate that Florida Statutes does provide a definition, and it's pretty all-encompassing. It's any site, building, monument, or other item that may have certain value to the local state history, archaeological. Of course, we know we've got some resources here in Northport. Most obvious is Warm Mineral Springs from two points. The buildings at Warm Mineral Springs are on the National Register of Historic Places through the architectural significance of the property. And then the springs themselves are under the archaeological significance for the site. So it does the state. definition does provide a lot of latitude as to what could be considered historic. The Florida Master Site File, this is a voluntary program. There is a process by which anybody can submit an application for a property or a feature, it could be a natural feature, an archaeological It could be a historic structure, a cemetery, all sorts of things that can be considered included on the master site file. Anybody can submit an application. It is free to do so. But most importantly to understand is that it doesn't provide any protections. And neither really does the National Register. It's symbolic. It's a recognition program. But it doesn't prevent demolition or changes to a property. So there's no regulatory restrictions that go along with that. So I mentioned the big stick that we deal with earlier. Right now we're gonna start into what we really do deal with from a prohibition and a preemption standpoint here in Florida especially with recent legislation and the Burt J. Harris Act They seem to update this on a regular basis and provide even more preemptions. But it does enforce restrictions on local governments that create an inordinate burden on property owners. And the inordinate burden is not defined in the statute very specifically. So we do have to look at their general definition, and then we also have to look at case law, of which there is a lot out there. I did not bring the case law into this presentation because I didn't think anybody would want to sit through a presentation that long. But it generally exists when a government entity's action has directly restricted or limited the use of real property. such that the property owner is permanently unable to obtain the reasonable investment-backed expectation for the existing use. Let me give you an example of that. There was a case. It was in a historic district. And there was a building within that historic district that was vacant. It had previously been a retail establishment, which was allowed in that district. And a different use wanted to go into the district. The city would not allow them to do so, because they didn't want that use in their historic district. They did lose that case, and it was extremely costly. So anytime you do something that really limits that use when the property owner should have been able to obtain a reasonable use there, that can be a problem. The other is when you have a property owner who has a vested right to a specific use of that property. So if you have someone, for instance, who has a property that they have gotten permits for, or they have established a use on the property, and then you put restrictions over that property that no longer allows them to use that property for that use. This doesn't equate, sometimes people will use the Burt J. Harris to say, well, I own this land, I've never done anything with it, but I want to, but now you won't let me. If you haven't moved forward with permits, you have to actually show a proactive effort to have used that property But those are some of the things that would trigger a Burt J. Harris Act claim. So some of the examples we do list here that a historic designation, if it is a mandatory historic designation or regulations that are mandatory upon property, could trigger. For instance, requiring cost-prohibitive renovations and materials. If you have a property and you place a designation over it, you say that property is now historic property. And then you require them, if they want to replace their roof or if they need to make repairs to the building, you require them to make costly repairs that they would not normally have to make if it was not part of that district. Similarly, if they want to expand the building, it would normally be allowed in the zoning district they're in, and you prevent that expansion. That is another example of an inordinate burden. As I mentioned before, prohibiting new uses or change of use that would normally be allowed in that district, the case I talked about earlier was an example of that. And then denying demolition or a redevelopment permit if that is something that would normally be allowed. And not allowing that to occur could also trigger an inordinate burden. And these four things, these are by no means exhaustive. There's a whole lot of things that can cause a Burt Harris Act claim. These are just four of the most common things that trigger a Burt Harris claim in relation to historic designations. So some of the additional statutory considerations that we are dealing with over the last couple of years and continue to be modified every time the legislature meets are preemptions for local government from imposing what they call more restrictive or burdensome regulations. So there is a, when after Helene and Milton, The legislature passed a law that introduced this more restrictive and burdensome language into the state statutes. They continue to make revisions to that law in extending the expiration date of those provisions and also adding more things to it. There was a fix in the state legislature that we were very hopeful was going to get passed this last session, and it died, unfortunately. It had a lot of support at the beginning, but it, like many other bills, did not pass. So this more restrictive and burdensome regulations, we've been under this restriction for a couple of years, because when they passed it, They made it retroactive. So it came about the time that we adopted our new land development code. And there was some concern as to whether we were going to be able to enforce the new ULDC. Unfortunately, much of what we did in the ULDC was not more restrictive. It was less restrictive. For instance, for certain types of development, if they met the provisions of the Land Development Code, they no longer had to go get public hearings. It could be approved administratively. Certain zoning districts, we loosened the zoning districts to allow more uses. So those things were not considered to be more burdensome or restrictive. However, if you look through the new ULDC, you'll see multiple places, one at the very beginning, but then multiple places throughout it, where we included a caveat because we knew this was coming. We included a caveat that stated that those specific provisions would not be effective or enforced until this law either expires or is revoked. That's one of the things that we're dealing with. It does tie itself to state-declared emergencies. So for instance, the way the law now states, it's changed two or three times since it was adopted. It states that any time there is a state-declared emergency, so if we're within 100 miles of the path of a hurricane, For one year after that, we cannot adopt any moratoriums. We can't adopt any regulations that are more restrictive or burdensome than the regulations that were already in place. And it really ties our hands on doing some things that would be mandatory. One of the things that the state legislature passed a couple of years ago was a requirement that on any proposed ordinances that we have to include a business impact statement. And it has to be published on the website. It is essentially a law that requires us to analyze the financial impact to all businesses within the local jurisdiction. So if we pass, sorry. For instance, if we pass laws making, if we did a historic district, for instance, we would have to provide a business impact statement that would analyze what that financial impact could be on all of those businesses within that district. Would there be expectations that they would have to spend more on repairs or renovations or materials? Or would it diminish their property value? Could it increase their property? All of those things we would have to do. And then based on the statutory preemptions that we're under now, the Burt J. Harris Act, all of the recent legislation, attempting to impose involuntary regulations would be highly vulnerable to a judicial challenge. So while you're thinking about new programs, new policies, that is something that you'll definitely want to be aware of. So the Unified Land Development Code that was adopted in 2024. Probably the most important thing to note about historic resources is that the ULDC applies only to city-owned resources. It does not apply to any privately-owned resources. That was very targeted, and it was very intentional. Because we control those. The city can protect those, renovate those, It's under our full control, and it's not subject to any of the preemptions or judicial prohibitions that we might find under the Florida statutes. So it does protect buildings or structures that are identified through the comprehensive plan, or any that are listed on the National Register of Historic Places, or any property for which there's a master site file in place in Florida, or if another resource is designated through the Florida Master Site File Program. So if, for instance, if someone wanted to designate or propose another resource here in the city through the Florida Master Site File and it's one that the city owns, then it would fall under this provision. So with everything we can't do, what can we do? What has the state left us with? And there are multiple things that can be done as you consider new policies or programs. What you could do is to amend the code of the city. And we're very careful to make sure that it's the code of the city, not the Unified Land Development Code. Unified Land Development Code is new development. the city code could contain the adoption of a voluntary historic designation program. And that could be shaped in a lot of different ways. People could apply for it. This board could bring forward potential sites to look at, could work with property owners to do that. And essentially to identify, this board could identify those types of properties or structures, features. And then work with willing property owners. So if you have a property owner who owns a building that this body thinks is historically significant for the area, then if that property owner is willing to be recognized, then this board could come up with ways to recognize that. And that would be part of the program that you could adopt in the code of the city. And you could recognize it through placement of plaques at the site. You could recognize it through a list that's published. Some communities will do a feature document on their website. They will have information about the places or the features, structures, and provide education. I worked in a previous community where we had a very historic structure that was built in, well, the entire city was pretty much built in the 1700s, but there was the very first cabin that was ever built in that city from the 1700s was still there. And the historic society for that city did a rotating exhibit, historic exhibit in the cabin that was open to the public. And it was really a neat thing to do. So one of the things that I've talked with the parks director about doing potentially is some type of a historic exhibit at Warm Mineral Springs. It's a natural place to do it. The buildings are being renovated, hopefully. And it would make a nice place to have that type of a rotating exhibit. So part of that, we mentioned having a local registry, a voluntary local registry. Developing this board would be a good body do the research to find the information on those structures or on those features, and design some type of an educational program, whether it be a slide deck or a booklet or something of that nature. And that would tie into the public-facing program. So I know if you do a lot of work to get a property designated as historic and do the research on it. You want a method to make it known and make it public and share that knowledge with other people. And I think that our communications team that we have at the city, we've got a great cinematographer. We've got some good people that are great with graphics and visual design. I think they would be excellent people to team with to build some type of a communication program around the historic resources of the city. So what you can do, as long as it's voluntary, it's pretty open-ended. It really is. It will require probably a significant amount of research and work on the part of the board. Not just getting it adopted is the easy part. Doing all the research afterwards is the hard part, but probably also the most fun.

Chris has got everything already.

So essentially this is what we want to discuss with you especially giving you some of the background about what we've been dealing with on a state level on the free options and our unified land development code why we really don't want to touch that because it does open us up for a lot of not only state preemption action, but Burt Harris action as well. But there are a lot of things that you can do on a voluntary basis and working with willing property owners and developing a policy around that type of a program. And I'm happy to answer any questions. And yes, Laurie Barnes.

Hi, I'm Laurie Barnes. I'm the deputy director of development services. So I was late. I was coming from an hour away. I just wanted to tack on, I came from a community, my last city that I worked in was incorporated in 1883. That city had a historic downtown. It also had a residential historic district. And the programs in the city code included a historic by a property owner in that district. And as long as there was a public hearing and a buy-in from everyone who was in that district to designate the entire district, it could be established. Then there was also the separate local landmark designation where a property owner could ask for their own property to be designated based on the architectural style and certain criteria outlined in the code. I did share that with Manny and Rita, the code from that city, City of Eustis, and it might be a resource to help you potentially design those voluntary programs that might be a benefit to this city. One of the other things that through that whole program resulted in was a historic tour. Now, of course, it was a street level tour. These buildings, for the most part, other than the historic theater, were not open to the public. But we had a map available in our office and on our website. And people could do a walking tour of the downtown, a driving tour of the historic residential district. And each of those landmark properties were given a plaque of recognition to place on the front facade of their building.

Any questions? Chris?

Chris, any questions? For the most part, I think we were looking at more of the voluntary rather than saying, oh, your area is going to be. Because we realize that we are property owners here. I don't want somebody coming in and saying, you're going to do this with your property, because that doesn't cut it. But the three areas that I researched, one of them didn't really require researching. It was the Biscayne Plaza, which is the original governmental offices for the city of Northport. That one, I guess whoever owns that strip mall would have to be contacted. I understood that. And what we're looking at there is we're trying to designate and then put up a marker saying, this is where Northport started. That whole area there, that General Development Corporation built houses right around the library. I mean, that could be designated historic. And again, we weren't really trying to change the ULTC. What we didn't know, and we weren't given any guidance, is here, make up some procedures for doing and designating. Well, we had no knowledge of how to do this. And they threw this at us. And I'm going, OK. Harry and I tried to get something together. Of course, it involved the ULCC, which we didn't know about. But that's where we were headed, trying to designate these spots.

And that's why we approached Rita and Manning, because we recognize that there'd be no reason for you to have the background or the knowledge of the ULDC. And we wanted to ensure that you had all of that information before you go into great depth and recommend something to the commission. We wanted to make sure that it was something that we could actually do.

and that we didn't run across any potential legal .. And something else to think about, the example that I provided, Rita and Manny, actually has a process, a certificate of appropriateness requirement for any exterior modifications to these. as you embark on this effort. Is it most important to designate these properties and recognize them with a plaque, which you might get more buy-in from property owners if it's got that simplicity to it. But once you start tying any exterior modifications to a review process and a public hearing, then people start to get a little bit nervous, and they are less likely to designate unless they are one of those kind of people who has a home that has a unique architectural style, and they are willing to subject themselves to that kind of scrutiny. So something to think about. Maybe as a first step, you look at just that designation process. Go out to those property owners like Biscayne Plaza so you can have that recognition plaque without tying them to any financial commitments for their exterior modifications as they come over time.

Having been a member of both the Historic Commission of Sarasota County and the Historic Preservation Board of Sarasota County, I understand this stuff. One of the things that really gets property owners' eyes to wake up is the tax benefits, which, again, we'd have to get city commission to buy into it. But if there are tax benefits, the likelihood of these people going, oh, yeah, that's my neighborhood.

tax exemption in the city of Eustis which should be in the ordinance example I provided. Something to think about though as you move forward is what the Florida legislature has done by putting the tax exemption proposal on the ballot in November. So any type of tax exemption might not

The other thing too, the city that I lived in that you couldn't throw a rock without hitting something historic was in Northern Virginia. I lived there four years. That was enough cold for me, and I got back to Florida as quickly as I could. One of the things that was happening there, the historic district The repairs that were made to buildings did require permits for historic appropriateness. It was costly, and it was a process that many people didn't like. And they also didn't like the cost of the repairs that had to be made to those historic standards, because these buildings were from the 1700s, and they looked like it. So they stopped repairing their buildings. They just stopped doing repairs.

Well, I have an example that exists right on 41 in the Comas, the old bank that was there. I was on the preservation board when the guy came in and said, I want to revise this, and I want to make it look like the bank used to look, but I'm going to use it. I don't remember if it was a restaurant or some shop or something like that. And they said, as long as you do And you don't have to use original material, because today it's going to be ridiculous. But make it look exactly like it did when it was new back in the 1930s or 20s or 30s, whatever it was. And you can do whatever you want inside. Nobody's going to go in there and say, oh, you've got to do this and you've got to do that. As long as that outside, the facade, looked like it did in 1923.

We had an old, very old inn from the late 1700s that had originally been a mill. And through time, it had been a pub, and it had been a bed and breakfast, and an old inn where it had just been through a lot. And it had been vacant for many, many years, and it had deteriorated. And we had a group that wanted to come in renovate it, and turn it into a small hotel. They wanted to keep the outside historic, but they wanted to use some more modern materials and things. Unfortunately, the requirements for them to renovate the property based on the historic regulations resulted in it being torn down instead.

Once you exceed a certain dollar amount or percentage.

It was in the millions of dollars difference. It really was. And it's so sad to see something like that when compromises, yes, it may affect the historic integrity of the building because it's not using the exact materials.

Bringing it up to code.

Right, bringing something up to code is extremely difficult, even though there are some allowances for historic buildings as far as the codes are concerned. Still, the cost of doing that sometimes ends up a result that you really don't want.

Does the designation carry from owner to owner?

So that's the other thing you have to you have to look at what the potential impact to the property value is as well. You know some some historic designations in places increases the value and And in some cases, it doesn't.

It's like, I'm from Connecticut, and we have a lot of old houses, same thing, in those historic areas, and you can't even touch those houses. They're worth so much money. They're beautiful, though. Old Victorian home, like, they're gorgeous. So it definitely helps.

But putting, for instance, putting a mandatory historic designation on a GDC, original GDC house that has a failing roof and a, you know.

Right.

And windows that don't open and close.

Or stay open.

And so that's when you have to think about, do we just want to create a designation program versus a designation program that comes with those requirements for exterior renovations? Or do you want to be somewhere in the middle? The city I worked in, like Elena's, tied those exterior renovations and required them to meet the national historic register requirements for renovations, which if you couldn't get the original materials, you had to make a case for why you couldn't do it the way the national regulations required. So designation alone or meet in the middle Whereas those exterior renovations need to have the same aesthetic, but not necessarily the same materials. That could be a meat in the middle. But still, having those property owners buy into that designation and being willing to subject themselves to that requirement. And then you have to think about, OK, if we're going to have that designation, what kind of fees are we going to apply to it? We have to have some recovery of staff costs. The city I worked in, certificate of appropriateness, it was $100 to apply. Well, let me tell you what. We had a planner that would spend 8 to 24 hours preparing, reviewing, writing up a staff report, attending the historic preservation board meeting, giving the presentation, doing the follow-up after the board took action. And we were no way, shape, or form anywhere near cost recovery. So that's something else to think about as you move forward. Where's that happy medium with with providing that service and the benefit to the community and making sure that the city is made whole in that process.

And that's something to think about too with the property tax exemption going on the ballot. We are, I can tell you, our department currently is going through a fee study. And we're looking at full cost recovery for everything we do as much as we can. Our planning staff, we're looking at a full cost recovery for every application that comes in the door, because they're supported by general fund, which is property taxes.

I think most of our discussions centered on designating an area, like Biscayne Plaza, like the area where the houses are. There's one on city property along on the Greenway that I did research on. And that, again, was just going to be a designation of this used to be here. Because what's left is, I think, because I haven't been there in a while, the turpentine dock is gone, which it shouldn't have been. There was a pit there, and I did a research on that pit. And the construction of that pit is a turpentine, a miniature turpentine still, because it was a satellite, turpentine camp. I've done all the research on that, have all the research on that. And again, that's the city's call. They want to designate it. They want to set up a little display there. I could get all the information that I have.

Well, and again, that's an educational program where there's, and we live in a digital world, working with a team like our communications team to put together videography on those types of things, documenting the history. We're in an area, we all know, we're in an area where one good hurricane can wipe it all out anyway. So if you put a plaque up, that's great, you know, But what happens if a hurricane takes it out, takes out the building? How have we documented that, that we'll survive well beyond any of us and whatever hurricanes come along? So finding a way to develop a program that documents that history in perpetuity is important because look at the damage Ian did. One good storm down the Myakka Hatchee, there'll be no evidence of any.

Well, the other thing that was also documented along the Myakka Hatchee, from the environmental park all the way down to where it entered the Myakka River, is there were paleo-Indian sites all along that.

There's an ancient lake north of 75 along the Myakka Hatchee. How many people know about that?

And that's the kind of thing that we were talking about. That's the kind of thing we want to show. Here it is.

And I think there are... just even beyond designating specific properties as historic, some type of a program like that, there's so much opportunity there from an educational standpoint. Absolutely. Documenting it through video, through written word, through photographs, and then putting that on a platform that people can view from all over the world. I mean, we have people from all over the world who come to World Mineral Springs. How many of them know the history of it, though? So being able to make that available on the website through other types of means, there's such potential and opportunity there. And I think that that is really a great way that you could work towards securing that history for generations.

So even hyperlinking like Google Earth is in place here Yeah, I mean, you can do a... Or QR code, if you do a sign, brings you back to the history of the place.

You know, there are storyboards you can do online through ESRI, GIS. And we did some of those up in Virginia where... we'd have a site and we'd have a whole storyboard built on it with photographs, video, maps, interactive maps that told the story. And it's very dynamic, you know, because people can drill into it as much as they want to.

Now it could be as simple as a QR code.

Exactly, exactly. And then, you know, you could have that information available on a QR code at War Mineral Springs or at some of the parks or people can just... get that information at their fingertips.

So just a quick question. The business impact statement, does the city do that or do we hire outside for that? The city has to do it. Oh, really? Yes. So that would have to be included in the fees because it's a lot of work.

Right. It is a lot of work. It requires a lot of thought and a lot of work. But I just wanted to jump back on the designation and any revisions to the city code you might consider. Just for clarification, because you were talking about city-owned property along the Greenway. So the Unified Land Development Code Chapter 6, the section that was included in the presentation, that is preservation of historic resources. It does not identify the process to designate a city-owned property as historic or a local landmark or what may have you. So I would highly recommend... incorporating that language and that process in the city code amendments that you prepare to bring forward so that there's a process not just for privately owned but for city local landmark designation for the turpentine docks for the paleo indian sites and those kind of things because what we have right now just says if you're on the national register if there's a florida site file then we review for preservation of the cultural and historic resources if an application for development review comes in. There is nothing that requires or provides for a registry of city-owned properties any longer. Old ULDC, yes, misplaced, horribly designed. But I know you all can do better. And with Rita and... Manny. Manny. Helping, you know, helping and bringing us into the loop to review whatever you put together before it's brought forward to commission for a recommendation, then I think you all can get there.

All right. Well, thank you all very much. That was a lot of good information for the... taking to advisement as we're thinking about coming up with the processes for designation, which is, I think, the main thing I think we were looking at or concerned with at this point. As you mentioned, there really isn't, there aren't steps for how a property is designated historic, let alone what that means being designated historic. So I think we've got some food for thought here as for moving forward. So thank you very much.

Thank you for giving us time to find a date that we could do this. We do appreciate your patience with us. We appreciate it. So you're done with us? I guess so, yeah. Now we're going to continue down the... That doesn't sound right.

We'll see you again. We'll see you again.

Well, thank you so much for giving us opportunity.

All right, so we move on our agenda to 25-2849, discussion and possible action regarding recommending revisions of the ULDC Code of the City of Norfolk for the City Commission, Article 2, Section 6.2.1-2, 6.2.10. It sounds like there is a preference not to alter the ULDC.

I'll go along with that. What? I will go along with that.

All right. So it really isn't any discussion. No. So I guess we can kind of, I think at this point, that's something that I guess we will not then continue with. So let's move on to 26-0243, discussion and possible action regarding recommended city commission policy for designating

Edit keyword voluntarily designation. I don't think we have that terminology.

So this particular item says designate SORC sites within the city of Northport.

I think the policy itself. We're designating it.

I'll be honest with you. I think in drafting this To me, it still wasn't clear, if you recall, back in our previous meetings on whether or not designation was going to be just recognition or an actual, well, designating onto a local register, having the regulatory aspects that were discussed this evening about certificates of appropriateness or changes and things of that nature. So I think perhaps what we need to decide first is what kind of program are we going to be looking at? Is it going to be just some sort of recognition of a resource being historic? Or is it going to be some sort of designation that this is officially historic that then has some sort of development building ramifications you know, when trying to do improvements or something like that.

I'm thinking too. I personally don't want to see us telling people they have to do things, OK? I don't want to see them designating yes. If we want to put up a marker, we obviously have to ask these people, do they

keyword and how it's written right now on the agenda, it needs to be, words have to be changed in order for it to be meeting the correct terminology. Right.

But the designate has nothing to do with voluntary or involuntary. Because that's just us saying, we think that property is historic. That's it. It doesn't matter who owns it. We think it's historic. Now, if we want to do something with that property, Then we'd better be voluntary.

So let me see if I got this clear with where you're going with this, or at least I thought with that. So are you talking about having, I'm not going to call it a register, a list of places we think are important to the Northboard that is just something we have in our hip pocket, that we may want to approach these folks about if they want to be involved or not, or just to keep an eye on, or whatever the case may be. And then we have a registry of recognized historic places where we're just recognizing them with some sort of monument, plaque, some other just identifier that, hey, this is...

Okay, this is a multi-step process. as a multi-step process here. First of all, we go through, we look at what we have here as far as what we want to designate. We make up a list. There's supposedly a list. And a map. Yeah, there's supposedly a list somewhere the city's supposed to have maintained.

Oh, yeah, the floor master site file list? There's a local one, too.

This goes way back. I'm talking six years ago when we started Well, I'm not sure that Dave would have been the one to do it. Because my understanding way back when, and I'm going on one of our previous members who happened to be involved in the city since almost founding. And she said, yes, there was supposed to be a list. She said, I know that the city clerk was supposed to be maintaining this list. Well, city clerk didn't know anything about it. OK. Where did you get this information? That's my question. Where did you get this information? At any rate, what I look at is it's got to be a multi-step thing. We're going to have a list designating certain areas of the city that we think are significantly historical.

Designating or identifying. OK, we'll identify it first. Yeah. OK. So ID first.

Yeah, we'll look at each one of these. And then we can... Identify, designate. I guess the next step is if it looks significant enough, do we want to put a marker up?

Identify, get your list. Make sure planning is on board to be able to yay or nay it to move forward prior to.

Well, yeah, I mean, the list is just going to be, hey, these are places that we think are important. We're just identifying. Start with the ones you guys have. It comes with no regulatory controls. It comes with no source of anything. It's just kind of like the county has what they call their director's list, where it's just properties that they're like, we know these are important. We need to keep an eye.

or we re-evaluate my research and say, we need to designate this as a historic place. A designation policy.

So then we need the criteria for designation, which would be in here. And then we have a process for designation. And designation is only going to mean that we are recognizing that this is in a sore place. It's no good type. There's no... That's the quietest sneeze I've ever heard. There's no, again, no registry. There's no like kind of, you know, now that it's been designated that there's any type of regulatory control from the city's part. It's mainly just if a property owner is willing to have their property designated and it meets the criteria that we have in the designation process, then it could be something that could be sent forward to the city commission for their approval to make it official. And then at that point, then what?

The third step would be actually having a policy. Or would that be part of that policy?

Well, the policy is really going to be how we designate the process. So that's giving us the steps to get all the way to a recommendation to the city commission for putting this on some sort of historic designation list that doesn't have any type of regulatory requirement to it. And then if approved, then what?

Yes, third one would be like marker or so Yeah, yeah data historical data.

What's the city? So if the City Commission designates a property as historic based on our recommendation, but then how do we differentiate between One that's historic and one that's so historic.

We want to put a marker up Well, it's something we have to look at Have to do the research I mean, historically, I got back to what's going to be the criteria for saying this is historic, but this is super historic.

Probably years, whatever the years are.

I think that falls back to her PowerPoint of state statues and all other stuff. That's where the higher ranks are probably up there are 1954, error of cities where I think we're collecting more of that data that's newer than versus true historical I mean I know turpentine but if we can get that up higher that's going to be where you're going to get it I don't know if we're in the city based on what she shared it's going to fall underneath the problem with satellite turpentine stills okay they were all over

one that was sitting there. And the doc was sitting I have pictures of a real still. And you look at that still, and you look at that still. That's a still. It's a base.

Going back to that moving, whatever you call it, like putting it in warm middle springs and having an educational point of here this location is, and here's some photos of what it was, and then photos of what it looked like as of 19, or 2010, or whatever it was, and whatever times you had seen it before, too, you know? Like, just show those, and over time, weather, storms, people had bonfires, or whatever it may be, that disturbed the rest of it and got you all the way. We can't say that.

Yeah, because what she specifically said was you can do just a program, and then you can do versus a program with designations. IDing the properties, then taking it to commission and say, this is what we're designating as historic. Then the third thing would be, OK, now that they're designated historic, how do we ? What does that mean? What does that mean?

This is the history of Northport. You read it. From 1800 to 18,013, 1,000 plus, and then it goes up until 1950. there. And I love our idea about you have this stuff online, you have maybe a little marker somewhere. That's what needs to happen. That's what we're here for.

Yeah, the city of Punta Gorda has a program where they do like murals. It's a walking mural. So you get to go on and it shows you where they all are and then you walk, you know, and you could check out. That would be the So you've got ID first, and then go to commission for the designations of those sites. And then after we pass that, that's when you need to come up with a map.

Well, then we need to execute. Yeah, once a site or resource is designated as historic, then we have to decide, OK, what does that mean? Well, in terms of we have to look at the

The limited number of things we have here that are historic. So anything that's earlier than 1959 is damn historic.

True. I mean, really historic. Okay? It could be the Tribbentide still.

It could be that railroad place over there where I think there was a station. It could be Biscayne Plaza. There's three things that we know are they have been here, they were here, and they're old. Well, Biscayne Plaza started with the city, but the other two predate the city.

I think Elena and Lori helping look at that draft is going to help when you guys come up with the actual draft of the designation.

See, I was having a problem with us trying to develop. Correct, because we shouldn't.

Because we shouldn't have to do that.

My question was going to be, if somebody would have been here, is, How many other advisory boards have written their own procedures? Am I right?

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't think so. They don't write the procedures. The city tells us what the procedure is. Now, we may give input, which is what we're doing here. We may give input, but we can't write it.

Because they may have us actually afford it. It's illegal, I bet you.

I wonder if it's a voluntary list, probably.

Yeah, just an insurer within all the laws and everything of the city. They're going to definitely have the legal department look at it.

Exactly. Yeah, so we can't do that stuff. That's why I was having a hard time with this whole thing. It's like, I'm going to ULTC. I'm going to the city codes. I'm going, which one do I do?

So I think once you guys forward it to Lori and Elena, and they kind of give the A-OK, I think from there, they're going to have us give it to legal. And then legal will be the final.

You know what?

This looks good. Bring it to commission.

Yeah.

So it's more of like a four-step process. Right. You know what I mean? ID, do the draft, go to legal, then go to commission.

Well, I think before we even ID, I mean, IDs could be part of what this is. So I think probably what we'll need to do is I can go back over this based upon the conversation today, make tweaks.

The link is... When you go on to what was mailed to you, you should be able to pull it up so you can follow it along.

Yeah, the slide, yeah.

Oh, the slide, that way. Oh, yeah.

Well, I mean, I deal with that every day.

Okay.

All right. He's got it. So then I think what we can think about then is then we can continue item 26-20, sorry, 0243 for next month. Okay. And I will have, I'll send ahead of time so that we can have a revised version of this that I wrote on the agenda so that we can do our final review. Right. And I guess then we probably would need that to vote to pass it on to planning or development services staff. To review. To review.

Yeah. Definitely.

Okay. Are you going to be... Anything else during that time, too? Or that's... Sorry? Is that the only one thing you want to... So we're moving this forward, and then we'll go on to probably new business, right? If you wanted to add anything else. Yeah.

Next meeting agenda. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So next meeting, we'll review the change that I make to this. Okay. And then so that we can hopefully then maybe have some minor tweaks, if any, and then vote to... have this go to development services for their review and comment.

So go on our old business, right?

Yeah, so then this will be old business for next month.

Any new business for next month?

Let me check.

Chris, I can hold. Let me check. Please hold.

Are there any other agenda items that we would have? All right. Well, I guess, yeah, we can vote for, in terms of possible action. So I guess I will entertain a motion to revise. Give me the gavel. Oh, okay. Well, I can do that instead of just suggesting it to you. So there you go. The gavel has been passed. I'd like to, I'll make a motion to revise the draft policy for historic designation and to bring this back next month for final changes and potential actions with sending it to staff for review.

I pass the gavel back, and I second that motion. All right.

Let's have a vote. Aye. Aye? The ayes have it. So we will bring this back next month. Future agenda items, is there anything else anyone would like to add to the agenda for next month? Yes.

We've already decided the Greenway is an archaeological path, OK? Yes. Because there were paleo-Indian camps all along it. It's already been surveyed by the state to say that that designation should be there, that archaeological site. We need to discuss that. We need to discuss how to interface with any other board that starts using areas that are historically significant in our estimation. We need to discuss that.

Should that be in that policy?

Well, we have to discuss it with other boards. Because if they're going to use it, they need to talk to us. Because if they start digging stuff up, which they should. But who knows?

That can go to planning, too, when they can say that. Well, if I may.

That's ULDC. It's in the ULDC.

Right, but that's not happening.

We've got to talk to them for code enforcement, too. Maybe you've got to put the word enforce. It's not happening. Trying to create more regulations because the regulations that are there are not being followed. Well, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean we couldn't we can maybe add in there Enforcement of article 2 because if you know, it's clearly doesn't show that there are archaeological sites that are Designated here in the city. Yes and that It says here for each review each overseeing this stuff. Right.

Well, maybe we have to reiterate that somebody better be overseeing it. Because that is, as she mentioned, more Mineral Springs. I mean, that place has been so degraded historically and archaeologically. But regardless, it's still there. And the buildings are still there. And most of the stuff that's being done is being done by orcs and wreck. Not to say that they should.

There should be some kind of flagging of the system. Yes. That's my point.

I mean, to use the areas like that is fine. But shouldn't we be advised, or at least?

Chris, how would you like to have it listed on the agenda for next month?

Discussion of interface between between the city boards.

Well, is it the Parks and Rec board that's doing these things, or the Parks and Rec staff, at which point then? At which point then, it again falls back to developmental services.

Well, who organizes it? Field guys are mowing and yanking and doing stuff. That's everyday mowing stuff. Waterways, if it's got to be cleared, probably utilities making sure that the area is clear for not damming.

Not that we're going to say anything. I mean, for example, if Parks and Recreation, and I'm assuming that the advisory board organized these little shows that they put on. They want to use War Mineral Springs. It's been so great that it really does bother me. But it's nice to know that you guys are going to do this. Do you have any advice for us? Meaning, do you have any advice for us?

Just as a courtesy. To educate with what you're, like, you collect this, like, we create the Greenway thing and then educate internally, send emails out internally, because these guys don't go into our website all the time. But if they get an email, or toilet talks, a little slider, you know, hey, it'd be weird.

Maybe what falls within our purview is an education campaign for city departments about

Because we have trade shows, not trade shows, what do you call it, health shows and those other little things that happen throughout the year that it could be out there to, these guys that are on the field are coming in, employee day, get a sandwich or something.

And I wouldn't be surprised

you want to word that? Do you want to say enforcement and regulation of designated properties and then within that?

I would, if I may, to get back to what it would be listed on the agenda, I would say discussion and creation of educational material about enforcement Awareness of Article 2 of the ULDC.

Okay. Awareness in city employee and to public.

Yep. Yeah. City employees and public.

So discussion and creation regarding enforcement.

Other boards. Yeah.

Education of Article 2 of the ULDC. Yeah.

To public. Public. Create awareness. Create awareness. Well, we already said it's City of Northport. And was it vendors? No.

It's a discussion and creation regarding enforcement and education of Article 2 of the ULDC.

To public associated boards.

And internal city.

And internal city.

And internal, OK. For city staff, advisory boards, and the public. Right.

Because you hire guys, these field guys, ever really look at, they get a ticket and they run. They don't really, they might not even have a ticket on their phone. Not all of them have phones and all that. But if it's in places where they look and see, ooh, I didn't know that.

I mean, what would happen, and I know this is in the ULTC, what would happen if somebody goes up and starts digging along the Niagara Creek and all to find human remains? What are they going to do? They better report it to federal government.

And they're supposed to report it to the county sheriff's and the coroner's office and the county historical resources. That's where they're supposed to report it to.

Ultimately, it gets up to the federal government, too.

But yeah, I think there needs to be an awareness campaign. And even you would say, if they find an arrowhead, they should be reporting it, not, hoo-hoo, look what I found. All right, we'll take it home tonight.

Thank you. Shark's teeth, meh.

Don't go there because I told you what happened the first time I ever walked over. Oh, blah, blah, blah. I mean, we're walking over and there's this guy, shorts, no shirt. He's got a bucket. He's got a bunch of bones. Oh, my God. Oh, he's got one. What? And he's taking it out of there. Well, the same thing happened to Longmeadow Springs.

And again, with an education campaign, this is something where, say, if the police aren't patrolling and see this, they know then that they need to be doing something about it.

We could educate the police department, too.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, they're part of staff.

Any other future agenda items? Membership.

How do we attract members? Seriously, how do we attract members? Well, I mean, I was about this close to get out of here.

Can you guys advertise on any type of Facebook groups or anything? Is that allowed? I did it.

I did it. Well, we can. I don't know if that's really, that's more something that should be under the purview of the city.

Yeah, the clerk would probably state that they...

Do you want me to follow up with the clerk to find out how they normally? I mean, do they just throw it out there?

They have it out there.

I mean, they have it on the city commission agenda, I think, usually.

It's a general thing.

But I think an actual, like, Out on the social media, like the city's Facebook page or other social media.

I wonder if you guys can do almost like a presentation at one of the meetings to just say, hey, you know, my name's Harry. I'm from the circle. We're looking for new members to join. Or media people. Yeah.

Like how can media people put it out there?

Well, yeah. I mean, I remember.

Maybe our social, maybe our media department.

I remember meeting with one of your media folks. This board and being on the board what we do. What do you say? I don't know.

I don't know the rancher that Was 2025 Thursday April 15th, maybe we'll see if our video department can do something Okay, yeah, and even take clips of some of the spots that we think are historic, you know, all right. Do you still have that? Did I give you a CD or I gave you some dry back do you give it back? If you can get that to them to do something, I'd be great.

Well, I'll bring it to the next room. I would say maybe the simplest thing is if you wouldn't mind reaching out to your public media folks and maybe have them reach out to Chris and I, and maybe we can come up with something to do. Absolutely. All right. Any public comments? All right. Then seeing that, we'll go ahead and adjourn the meeting.