Planning Board - Regular Meeting

That's that's the opening bell. So dry and it doesn't work on them even anymore. Good morning everybody. Morning and welcome to the Nags Head Planning Board meeting Tuesday, September 16th. Um our first item of business will be the approval of our agenda. Can I make a motion to Well, I actually want to make a recommendation that we make a change to the agenda this morning because we have some visitors here and um in the interest of of getting to the issue that they're here for, I hope, and all that. And we have um Lee Nettles and Diane Bognich of the Tourist Bureau here. So, I think we'd like to rearrange a little bit if that's okay with everybody.

Sounds perfect. Can I make a motion to approve that amended? So, what we're going to do, yes, is move discussion item one up to um above action item E. Perfect. Does that sound good to everyone? Okay, then I will entertain a motion to make that change. Okay, we have a motion. Second and a second. All in favor? Anyone opposed?

Great. Moving on to public comment and audience response. Is there anybody here that wants to make public comment? We will have um a good discussion. I hope about the commercial outdoor overlay district. So otherwise, seeing no one that wants to speak in public comment, we'll move on to the approval of the minutes from our August 19th meeting. Has anyone everyone had a chance to review the minutes? Yes. Any questions or concerns? Can I make a motion? Please do. Can I make a motion to approve them as as submitted? As submitted. We have a motion. Second and a second. All in favor?

Anybody opposed? Great. Moving on then to our uh moved item, discussion item one, which is review of the commercial outdoor recreation overlay district. And I think first up will be uh Mr. Nettles, Lee Nettles, executive director of the Outerbanks Visitors Bureau. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning.

I have a uh a not too strenuous couple of slides just to kind of orient you and update you on the progress with the boardwalk. We've we've come before you before with plans for the event site and the boardwalk was just uh kind of mentioned as a hey this something that we're hoping to get to. Well, we've gotten to it. It's it's taken several years actually. The the permitting with KMA uh taken up the biggest chunk of that. So, this is part of the rendering and um there's a little archway there that would welcome people onto the main portion of the boardwalk and uh it's a a a nod actually to the original sign leading into the Outer Banks. We thought that was uh kind of cool.

Yeah, it's cool.

Um Yeah. Wow. So, no traffic on the bridge is the one thing I'd like to point out. So this is uh this is really pulled out. You can at the very bottom of the screen you see the bypass uh just to orient you. And then of course the boardwalk is out there over the um over the sound and we have a zoomed in view on the next slide. Um let's see. So on the far right uh there's a little portion of the boardwalk that is the uh what used to be Pamo Jack's property and then just to the left of that you see the the uh adventure park. The adventure park actually has an existing boardwalk. Um it's it's kind of faint. Uh but in between those two properties, it runs out over the marsh and then connects to a couple of boat slips. The design that was permitted by the town and uh in CMA includes uh adding a couple of slips, so seven slips out there. And um all the walkways that you see are eight feet wide with six inch rails on either side. So, 9 ft. That was um that was one of the variance requests that we had and was finally approved. So, it's a consistent walkway. The the concrete back over the land portions are um 10 ft, I believe. Um Yep. And then we've got Whoops. We've got three uh observation decks. The little half uh semicircles, the there's a u the gazebo that's That's kind of the main feature that's out over the water there. That's close to 2,000 square feet. We we originally presented it as uh something larger than that. That was one of the concessions that uh that we made with Camo, but I think

it'll really be a focal point. So, on that first slide that we were looking at um through the archway, you could see a structure at the end and and that was um the the gazebo. There's a pergola also that kind of leads out in the direction of the boat slips. Um you can see that when we got to the the southern portion, we brought it back to land and um that was to avoid interfering with some of the existing uses that were happening with uh kite boarding and sailing. Sailboats have been launching off of um the Harvey Sound Access area. Um we do have a uh I guess you would just call it a walkway. That one is only six feet. It's um we had met with some of the user groups, the kiteboarders. They preferred a a wider walkway. They preferred it to be lower. They preferred it to not have handrails. But we got kind of stuck in a in a weird spot because KMA, and I'll probably mess this up, but I think requires that you're 36 in above the surface. And if you are, I think at 32, you have to have the handrails. Um, we understand there's a little bit of discretion with the with the town building inspector, but um, John Deluchia hasn't been able to plead his case successfully so far. So, uh, we're we're still kind of working on that. But the idea with all of this, of course, is to get people out and over the sound. will have uh interpretive panels so that people will be able to have a greater appreciation and understanding of what they're looking at and and hopefully in doing so uh be inclined to take care of it. That's that's our intention. The the Yes, sir.

Sorry to interrupt. Where on this drawing is that entrance way the arch? The um I mean you could just use the mouse there. It's Yeah, right there where where the cursor is. Thank you. It's Kelly on the mouse. Um, so with the uh with the

with that feature at the end, you'll be able to get down to the water. Um, and so we expect crabbing, we expect, uh, kaying, um, just interaction with the water and of course the observation decks and and and all of that. Um, so we've tried to make it accessible and um, just help people preserve the access to the sound. I mean, I think that's what it's all about and and it's consistent with with what uh is later on the agenda,

just getting people moving around, educating them about what they're looking at and and really kind of connecting. I mean, I think that this is it's um we hope that it will be a catalyst for the the town and its discussions about the broader area uh down there. So, um, oh, and then the next what's so what's next? Um, and when

we got the permitting in late 2024, put the bids out. The bids were um were approved by the tourism board. This the funding for this is is all on the tourism board. It comes out of our restricted fund budget and by law uh those dollars can't be expended until the Dair County Commissioners give their consent on the expenditure which they did in September or September 3rd. So we have uh since signed contracts and given the notice to proceed to Millstone Marine Construction and this is the crazy part. I mean, we've been working on this for, you know, five years or so with design and permitting, but now the construction, the contract says that it needs to be done within 150 days. So,

Wow. That would put us uh the end of February. Wow. We look forward to the ribbon cutting. It wasn't the hurry up and wait, it was the wait and hurry up. Exactly. So, we're excited about it. Hope you are. And um and happy to answer any questions. Can you go back to the um the reviewing like where are the new boat slips going to be? It's I'm sorry I didn't hear the question. Where are the new boat slips going to be? Okay. Get him to point. Oh, okay. Out there. Yeah. So, uh um Brad may be be able to say I think there's like three or four out there now. We're adding a uh it's to the existing structure that's out there already. Okay.

The water from what I understand is a little bit deeper than you might think. It's um I mean It's It's going to have limitations the types of boats that you can get in and out of there, but Right. Yeah. So, and would that be allowed for like commercial like like can can a kayak company come there and do things like are you going to be allowed any commercial uses on that property or No, I we haven't really gotten into that discussion um so far. So, Do you mean like just people who had rental

watercraft coming by or are you talking about somebody actually conducting business there? I guess I'm wondering if a kayak company would be allowed to conduct business there or if you would get that question possibly would that be allowed. I'm sure we will. Uh um I you know actually one of the ideas that we've had is kind of a a bigger vision maybe but um wouldn't it be cool if we could get a a water shuttle that would go from there out to Festival Park for instance or the Mano Harbor.

That's that's what Mike Bassite had talked to me about. So I was going to ask you about that as far as a water taxi or shuttle that does that. That's an idea. That would be cool. It you would you would obviously need a vessel that didn't draw much, but I think there's potential. I um personally I'd rather see something like that than than a bunch of jet skis kind of coming and going or Right.

Um and I mean obviously you could only get just so many people, but what what an experience that would be. And and of course we we had the parking on this side. Um so any load that you could lighten for uh for the events at Festival Park for instance. Um I just I think there's a lot of potential to kind of tie those and just lightning traffic in general on the roads.

Yeah. And vice versa. I mean if u if if we're able to strengthen the connectivity in the well bone area in that u court area that we're talking about just the walkability of it uh without adding cars I mean that could be that could be something. without commenting on the waterfront in NOFK or downtown Portsmouth. Uh for years and years they have run a ferry back and forth in season and to what you just mentioned festival park. There is the amphitheater in Portsmouth

and a lot of people will park in NOFK, take the ferry over so that they don't have to go over there and find parking and and all of those other things. Um, you know, downtown Mania was also a draw. If you could do both, you could have people down here for a whole day and evening and it would be an experience, isn't it? Yeah, total experience. Absolutely. Anybody else have questions, comments? We'll uh we'll stick around for the rest of the discussion. If you please do. Thank you. We we really appreciate it and it is helpful to us in our ongoing discussions about the town and the area and all that stuff. I think it's great and it's great that it's happening.

Yeah. We look forward to the ribbon cutting in February. Hopefully the day is better than this. It'll be a neat day. It'll be a great reason to get outside in February. Yeah, exactly. Thank you very much. Did you have um any information on the pickle ball courts that they were going to be installed? Yeah, thank you for asking about that. Um we we were approached uh a while ago by the county about the possibility of adding pickle ball courts and we added that to the permitting um for with the town. that plan has been kind of back burnered

so it's uh less of our priority. I know that the county's gone through a parks and recck study and they're taking stock of their inventory. I think that showed that they were kind of in better shape than they expected with regard to the pickle ball and the northern beaches. So I I don't want to speak for him, but it seems as though the priorities have kind of gone to other areas. So, it's not it's not in our plan. We we had it designed, but uh we saw it, but it's not in our plans. Okay. Is there by the county? We I think we were going to put some money into it, too. But

yeah, we there are other things that we'd prefer to put the money into, I guess, with this with regard to the site improvements.

Gotcha. Do you guys have a vision for anything else on the properties there at the moment or that you're pursuing or not pursuing but thinking about? So, um, as you're aware, we we had a fully conceived at least, uh, rendering for the sports and events complex, and we still think that that facility, uh, holds a lot of value, but, um, we our funding doesn't allow us to we're not able to take out a loan and unless some other entity kind of comes in and helps with the front portion of that, then we're we're not able to get there with our funding line item. Um so we we had quite a lengthy discussion with the county and we're just we're just not there right now

that um we have two or three new EMS buildings however which is nice. So it's uh we we weren't able to get the sports and events complex ahead of the EMS buildings. So, it's we have those plans and and it's a possibility. I mean, we we have other uh thoughts on how we can make improvements with the site and um improve the connectivity throughout the site. I we'd still like to see uh an interior road so that people that want to travel from the old Pamco jacks to the main event site don't have to get out onto the bypass.

So, uh it would be really helpful. We we've had the the markets during the summer. great traffic. Um, so yeah, that connectivity inside I think would be really important. We've also had some discussions about a a traffic signal at that site. Um, so you know, in conjunction with the town, we we want to try and work together and figure out what makes best sense there. Lee, yes. Let me just ask you um briefly what are the priorities?

Well, I mean the I think the priorities are to uh preserve sound access and have this site for the enjoyment of the you know the the public the of course the visiting public but um the further that we've gotten into this I I think that uh they don't they don't have to be mutually exclusive. We we want to try and do improvements that have value both for visitors and the people that live here. Um the event site is quite busy in the in the spring and the fall. We've tried to fill that in with uh activity in the summer with the marketplaces which have been successful I think. Um so just improving the safety, the connectivity. Uh but um I mean we'd like to get to that sports and events complex. We don't have a facility within Dare County that can hold in a heated and cooled space more than 400 people. That that seems like a gap. And um and it also seems like a gap particularly with the parks and recck study that uh we have we have a limitation on courts and and sports facilities. Um, I think that there's a the um the dome in uh Virginia Beach is, you know, I think an example of how you can have a smaller scale facility that gives you flexibility with being able to open up the back. Um, our plans were connecting to the event site off of the back of that. So, being able to u have concerts and that kind of thing. Um but I this the scale of it has um people draw their own conclusions. Our idea about that was uh roughly the size of the food line across the street. So not not a convention center. The site won't hold

it and we don't want it. But but I I do think a a heating cool space that can hold more than 400 people up to 1500 people um could could be quite an amenity for our area. But that's going to uh we we need to work with the county. Thank you. That was a loaded question.

Thank you me. It's it's um I guess another way to answer that is it's we don't see it as an all or nothing. I think that there's plenty of value that we can offer through the site to the community without having the facility there. So, um we'll we'll make the improvements and get the most that we can out of the site. Um, and you know, it's it's it's it's a good position to be in that that it doesn't have to be that to to be something of value

and I agree and doesn't have to be mutually exclusive between visitors and residents. So, and that's always a goal of ours as well. Yes. In town, you know. So, okay. Anybody else? I don't want to questions. Well, thank you so much. We appreciate it. Thank you. It's good to see everyone. I think Deputy Planning Director Joe Costello is going to talk to us now and talk to everybody about some of the things that we've been talking about since March.

Yes. Good morning. Thank you. Um, let me get what I have pulled up. start here just to kind of go back to the beginning of of why we started talking about this. Um, you can see on the right hand side that map shows the hotel overlay district as well as the commercial outdoor recreation district. Um the cord is sort of that hatching you see. So it basically goes from forest I can zoom in a little bit. Basically goes from forest all the way down to fishing unlimited. And so this overlay district um basically is all C2. You can see on this map this is the zoning. All the red is C2. So, the commercial outdoor recreation overlay district allows a whole lot of uses that you can't do anywhere else in town. Um, water sport rentals, uh, miniature golf. I know there's a non-conforming miniature golf elsewhere in the town, but you can do anything you could do in in C2 in in this district. So, a lot of these sort of outdoor recreation uses are are special uses. Um, if you look at our C2, which let me pull this report up here that we've done. If you look at our C2, all of these things are C2 uses. You know, there's cottage courts, there's large single family residential uses, there's retail uses,

there's a whole lot of service uses and any of those could happen and and um we could see redevelopment in this area. So given what the tourism board is doing seemed like a good opportunity for the town to consider the future of this area and um we put together this report which is just an existing conditions report. We looked at what plans we have in the area, what development is existing, try to kind of look at the character of each each area within within this larger area of the cord, the north, the northern district, the southern district. Um, and we looked at the comprehensive plan. Um, the comprehensive plan really talks about this area being a destination to park your car, enjoy walking and biking. It talks a lot about mixed use. Um the area is highly desirable for additional dining opportunities, boutique shopping, um very integrated uses um and and sort of creating a place. Um it also goes on to talk about connectivity to the whale bone activity node which is if you look at our comprehensive plan, it's kind of the Janette's pier area. And so the comprehensive plan recommends connections between these two areas, but it also recommends a lot of integration in the southside activity node. Um, we've been, you know, as as we sort of discussed at the board meetings, you know, the town has sort of considered this for years. It was in our parks and w plan in 2014. Um, I think one of the things we were waiting on was sort of to see what the tourism board was doing with with their site. Now they are um kind and I've included that in this report as a got your site plan in here um and mapped and so you can see guys

right there we go that work there we go um so you'll see sort of the light Yellow is what's existing now and then orange is what is on a plan. So, zoom a little bit. Trouble with this. There we go. Um the orange is what's planned. So, you can see we have plans in our pedestrian plan to connect these sidewalks. And then we have the approved site plan which shows sort of your um boardwalk that's proposed. I've added in here in green some possible connections. Um I really just took what was previously looked at as as the alignment for the boardwalk. um and then sort of added this trail that would go through Wilbone Park and come up um to the light. But you can see if you sort of imagine without the green and without the orange and you just look at that yellow, I don't think it necessarily meets what the comprehensive plan recommends as far as connectivity between these sites or these activity nodes. And then even with the orange, you know, maybe there's some to be desired connectivity and um we uh created some recommendations that look at strengthening these key connections and enhancing this walking experience. Part of it, you know, shade trees, public art, some some maybe outdoor vendors that could liven up the street and draw people in. Um, part of its infrastructure and potentially now looking at connecting to the outlets

from the Southside Event Center. Um and and then again reooking at our pedestrian plan and looking to strengthen connections between the well bone activity node and the southside activity node. Um then there's sort of this zoning piece where we have all these C2 uses that could could happen any time under SP 382. We can't remove uses without getting all of private property owners approval. I don't necessarily, you know, that's that's one strategy, sort of the carrot and the stick, but you know, maybe we could use the carrot and look at allowing commercial mixed uses and group developments to where an outdoor use would just be one principal use, and then you could do another principal use on that same site, such as retail or a restaurant. And it's not going to look as good as that rendering we just had. But I did this animation and I only used the site plans I had, but it was just an attempt to sort of if that existing conditions report shows what was there. This maybe shows how that connection could be. And it just takes you around these sites. And again, I've I've sort of taken full license to show those outlets as sort of two level um a two-level development with with the second story just so I could put some additional uses in there and highlight maybe what it could be

if it was reoriented to the sound and you had maybe retail or an event center up there or a brewery or even like a library um or sort of museum type thing. Um all of those are are sort of recommended uses that maybe don't have anywhere else to go on the court. And so this just again it's sort of zooming around the site and you know I um did the outlet mall and we'll zoom in here and show you a bar right

restaurant. Excuse me. Thank you. And then with the event side, I took their site plan and and just um you know kind of did the same. I added boards. I didn't know you guys weren't doing that. Well, they look good there though. But

hopefully this model just provides a visual to highlight the interconnectivity that could be occurring and sort of these elements that we've been discussing like shade trees, some public parks, some shade trees along the multi-use path because when you're walking through there, it does feel maybe a little exposed. Um, you know, if you looked at the whale bone activity node, you probably notice how people are walking even when there's no path and how people feel sort of protected. There's commercial uses right up against the street. There's a lot of activity. You know, you feel safe. You kind of uh, you know, the visual sort of straight down. You're not just like wide open. So, I think um, there are some elements that can make it more walkable that aren't just infrastructure. And then having things like art making it a destination I think could also add activity on the street and and sort of bring people out and we've done a lot of art in other parts of town which sorry going back to my report highlight at the end here where you know we've done this crosswalk we have the entrance to Dowy Park we've done girls um in different parts of town and I'veclledcluded some examples of in some installations elsewhere um just as food for thought. But um given what what the tourism board is doing with the southside event site, I think it's you know a good opportunity now to encourage looking at a larger connection and engaging with property owners. I think the weather probably held back some people. We sent a hundred letters or so to all of the property owners within the cord. appreciate um those who did come out. I had some questions. I thought we could have a conversation

just just with the people who own property and have run businesses here on you know what they like about the area, what they want to see improved. There's something they've wanted to do with their property that haven't been able to due to zoning, you know, what is that and let us know. And then some of these larger questions if they have comments or ideas on what can be done to enhance the corridor and would you be supportive of a boardwalk being incorporated into your property. So happy to open it up to just sort of a conversation amongst everyone.

Absolutely. I think that sounds great. Um we appreciate those people that are here and I think in the interest because the meetings are recorded we need for need to ask people to step up to the podium to speak but it's fine if um we'll try to keep it as informal as possible have just have a discussion about it. We want to hear what people have to say about the area the direction we're sort of starting to go in. Anybody have comments or questions? Please step up and if you'll just tell us who you are.

Brian Wilson with Miller's Waterfront and the uh the adjacent property next door to that with the ice cream shop and the jet ski rental business. I mean to me this is what the town needs in my opinion. I mean, it seems like you see this, you know, I travel a lot myself and it seems like you see this in most waterfront areas and like they were saying before too. I mean, you know, it can get pushed towards this is what the tourists are looking for, but it really is what the locals are looking for as well. Um, I think you'll incorporate, you know, like I went to college in Wilmington, North Carolina, and they had that loop. I Anybody's familiar with that? Well, people would get out and run and exercise and it just created a avenue of safe area where people felt like they could get outside and then doing it in a manner with the boardwalks where you're not, you know, disturbing and and so on and so forth. I mean, it's it seems like a no-brainer.

Um, questions I would have is, you know, the lighting of it. I mean, I'm assuming that would be something that would be incorporated within it. Um, and then as far connectivity goes. I mean, of course, you know, owning two properties adjacent to the towns and and and the visitors. I mean, I'm all for it. I mean, obviously, I'd like to be approached on how we're going to get around things and so on and so forth, but right. I mean, I'm open for any suggestions and I I really feel like this is a great idea. Thank you. That's kind of all I have. I mean, I was just saying go ahead. Um, well, I was just going to ask you, you mentioned lighting. What are your thoughts on it? just no

want to know what the general plan is. concerns by any means, but just, you know, I'm assuming, you know, with I mean, there's so many ways you can light, you know, boardwalks and so on so forth and right allowing people to be out there, you know, I mean, because if any of you all have been there, you know, it's prime sunset area. Oh, yeah. So, they're going to be there when the sun goes down. I mean, there's no doubt about it. And and the water taxi idea would, I assume, extend hours, but I don't we, you know, that's a brand new idea, so we don't know how how long that would go on, but I think that's there might be people there after dusk obviously. Yeah. So,

I mean, it's easy for me to sit here owning businesses in the town and say, "This is great. Let's do it." Or whatever, but I swear there's more I wish there were more people here because it's it's really not about that. It's about getting people outdoors. I mean, I feel like the town, you know, owning homes in the town and businesses, I feel like we're kind of lacking a little bit in and, you know, sometimes maybe we take this for granted and when when visitors come down and allowing them to see, you know, and I see it in the restaurants. I mean, people come for the view. I mean, I hope they love the food, but they're coming for the view. Absolutely.

And and and it's an easy sell, you know, so you sell them on the view and then you try to make them come back with the food and but like let's sell them on the view and make had that area where people want to, you know, mingle outdoors, which is, I think, as we all saw after CO, that's what everybody wants to do. It's not just a co thing. It's a thing, right? People want to be outside and we want to encourage it. I think keep people off the roads, too. You know, helps with traffic and all that. And your comments about people walking, running, whatever there, it gives people a place to meet, too, to do that instead of, you know, because we do, we all see that going on. You see people congregating at

at the Y and walking in the woods back there or walk, you know, all different places. But and I think Brad, you mentioned something about a a distance of like a preferred distance where people will will come if there's a Yeah. It just has to be worth driving and getting there to have a enough walk or like a loop or something so that people can say, "Well, we'll go down and do the loop." And then, you know, I think it'll turn into a destination to be honest with Right. Right. It

and the example I think is very apt. We had no idea Dowy Park was going to develop into what it has. I it was a it was a it was it was a possibility but it didn't have a plan. It wasn't even an idea. It was a blank piece of land. And this is not too dissimilar. It's a it's a it's a blank canvas. Let's put some art on it. And the art is people. Yeah. Brian, I brought this up at the last meeting and um I will beat this drum as long as I'm allowed to beat this drum. This entire area, the long-term plan, the boardwalk from where it starts going all the way around to the causeway could have the most profound and dynamic effect on the town of Nags Head, which I think is the greatest place in the world to live. And in my mind, I've already branded this whole area, the cord, as soundside, nags head, sights, sounds, sips, snacks, strolls, and sunsets. Where? Soundside nags head.

They're going to steal you away from us if you keep up with the slogans and everything. No, I really He's over there taking notes. Um, I I I really do believe in it. And it would then become known not just uh to our you know visitors but it would be a great place for locals to go. I agree. Uh particularly with the advent of some more pedestrian friendly running u you know not that you want a whole lot more competition but if it becomes a dining destination you actually bring more people in. It's a destination for activities. And then if you add the element of of a ferry service back and forth in Manio,

I think that's a but people base themselves in Nag's head. They can start their day and finish their day right there. Uh you've got people you've got people now that spend nine hours in the car to go a block and a half in Ochre Coke. Well, this would be a whole lot easier and there'd be a whole lot more to do. Um, so I I think there's the the possibilities here are limitless really truly. So I do have a question. You have several boat slips, do you not? Are they pretty much staying full? A lot of people come in.

I would say full. I mean, you know, the access to there takes a, you know, when we were doing this before, it takes a, you know, when you're when you're buying a boat, right? You know how to handle a boat. you know where and where you can go and the depths and so on and so forth depending on how involved you are with it. Um I mean at the end of my docks I have about 4 foot of water which I would think would surprise most people. Um are there some skinny or shallower areas? Yeah, of course. Um but like the folks that I see all the time it's more locals that come by boat can be completely it's pretty much 90% locals that come by.

It's going to be more locals anyhow that have boats. It's Pirates Cove that comes over WI. I mean that you know and they know the waters so they know and I mean honestly you know there were talks about well you know should we put markers up to do people know how to do this? When you make the investment in something like that you understand what you're supposed to be doing. I'm not speaking for everyone of course but I mean 99% of people have an understanding of how to navigate. Yes. If you're going to buy a boat and so you do there's a little bit to learn about the area. I mean is there some shallow areas? Yeah. I mean, we don't we're not very tidal, but the wind really depicts how deep it is.

And I think there more of that, you know, I spend a lot of my time when I'm not working. I go down to Florida. I have a house down there. And like the access that you see where you can get out in a boat and just get around and you watch the community as a whole doing stuff like that. I mean, it it just creates a different feel for the area. And I mean, Max said is unique to being in so close to Mania with all that waterfront there

and then really where else is I mean you got you're you know you there's not much around. So like being the in my opinion we would be the the town as a whole would be like you know the pioneer of this trying to let's get more access. Like when I first started running my restaurant I remember telling uh my my father Max's father-in-law I was like we need to put a pier out here. We need to get access out on the water and like he didn't understand that like Well, where's the dollars? You know, as a commercial, right? Where's the dollars? Where are we going to make money off of that? Well, we're not, but we're creating an atmosphere.

And that's what I tried to do with like putting the docks in. I mean, am I getting am I getting paid? Am I making the money off of what I spent, you know, with KMA and and and Nor Eastern Marine, like doing all that work? No. But I've created an atmosphere that my customers love. And there's there's more money to that than actually having people come. And it just creates a feel, you know. I've always said, "Shame on you if you have bad food." I mean, what else can you show them? And most of our people are on vacation. Yeah.

And and like with an area like this, I mean, I think we're showing the beauty of of Naget. And I think it will open up other opportunities like seeing that rendering of what you were showing. I mean, what a what a major thing that could have, right? I think it's a big deal. It really is. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you, Brian, for your comments. Does anybody else want to speak to us this morning? Oh, good. Great. Good morning. I'm Mary Kelly. Uh live in exit. I just have some questions about this because uh when I see a pier going out into water, I know some people leave their common sense across the bridge and I worry about little children running on there. So, I'm sure it's been designed to prevent kids just running out there or there's been railings and you were saying that the um whatever they're called,

the ones who fly over uh they didn't want you to have railings and stuff. Well, the kiteboarders.

Yeah, the kiteboarders. Well, I'm hoping there's railings for children because a lot of parents just let their kids run and it's it's a great way to get exercise, but they're out on the water and you know, just want to be careful and like who's who's responsible for the liability out there. Um, like if they were out there today with this wind and somebody would get hurt, is it knack head? Is it the tourism board? Is it Derek County? who has ultimate liability, responsibility over this pier or this boardwalk out in the water? That concerns me because it's beautiful. It's a great concept, but there's a lot of little worries. And fishing, are people allowed to go out there and fish? And then that nothing against fishing, but it does dirty up the boardwalk. And are they going to be allowed to fish off of the pier? uh you know it's a nice place to go out can I fish and then there's hooks and then there's stuff and again for little kids is it a safe clean place for them to go running and that type of thing so those are the kind of questions I hope we're also thinking about it is a beautiful concept I would love to go out there and see the sunset but I also worry about these other things that could happen that we could prevent in the design and in the discussion about it that it is a safe place for everyone children with our weather uh and that type of thing. So those are my questions.

Absolutely. Thank you. They're good questions. Anybody want to address any of them or could we just take them under consideration? [Laughter]

I have all the answers, but um I mean obviously talking about and the conflicts with handrails. Um, over a certain distance from a marsh area, the building code is going to require handrails. So, that's one safety mechanism that's going to be in place for anybody, you know, for children or anyone um on the boardwalks. If it's of a certain height above grade, it is going to have the handrails. Um, as far as uh liability, that's a question that I mean, I know for town um facil The town does carry liability on those things. So, I'm sure it's part of the boardwalk. No, I'm wrong. Andy, I think it's a question for the visitors.

I I was speaking to ours. I apologize. I was not speaking to the tourism bureau. I was just following up on Joe's presentation, but maybe you guys can speak to the liability aspect with with your portal. Kelly, can you just clarify too because when you refer to hand railings, not everybody knows. I mean, it's handrailings with ra several rails. I mean, it's Yeah, you're either going to have vertical or correct. So, and they're going to be child, you know, childproof, so to speak. Okay. Thank you. So, I apologize. I can't answer all those questions, but they're they're great questions and we can certainly keep them in mind,

right? Did you please step right up? I I would just say that um we we have insurance on the site and we'll have insurance on the boardwalk as well. Gotcha. And um

and we're funding the expense of building it and maintenance as well. Um, and certainly there was consideration to uh to the railings and and the protection of folks. I think your point about um different uses is interesting and it's something that we've um we've been aware of throughout the process. We've made a concerted effort to try and preserve the uses that are already happening out there uh such as the kite borders and sailing, wind surfing. Um you're you're right though that we need to be thoughtful about how we hopefully can preserve those uses without them being conflicting uses and making it a dangerous situation or unpleasant for somebody else. And honestly, I we need to do more as far as that goes, as far as giving that consideration. And um and some of it I think will just need to we'll need to kind of live and learn and and adjust accordingly,

right? You may have to actually limit some uses when it comes right down to it. There's some there's some questions obviously the town's project, but when it comes to the board, you know, and I don't know how this works between you guys and the county because, you know, do you do you have the ability to pass regulations for the site? Do you have anything in place right now? Obviously, for like a park like Dowy Park, we have a whole set of regulations. We have a policy amendment, something in our ordinance

and and I worked up in Duck and we did the boardwalk up there. We had to come up with regulations for the boardwalk itself and we had to come up with areas where you could do certain things like finishing and crafting. We had designated spots for those things. So, I mean those are good questions. So, the town had to do it. The town had to do being the owner of the structure up there. Obviously, I don't know how that would work with the visitors bureau, but it's just something that is those are good questions. Very good. and something that you know will probably need attention at some point in time as the site grows as more things develop on the site just things to be considered right

there are a few other things I was going to mention as part of this whole conversation just so everybody's aware um the um the town has a state trails grant right now uh to do some design work for some additional pedestrian facilities So, uh, we're going to be working on that over the next year or so. That would include designing a pedestrian path from the entrance to Jockey Ridge State Park to Soundside Road on the west side of the road, preferably. We've been talking with the state park about that. They're looking at doing another sand relocation project. They they've done that before. I don't know if you remember in 2017 they moved quite a bit of sand and so exploring whether or not they'd be going to include the southeast corner of the state park where you've got some of the sand up against the roadway and possibly moving some of that so we can make way for a path and that would also get some of that sand off the road. DOT has to constantly come out there and clean up. The state trails grant would also pay for the design of the the multi-use path between Cchase Drive and the southern end of the village to that section of pathway that's that's in our pedestrian plan and also looking at from G Street which is the entrance to the outlets

down to Grey Street. It would go at least that far to do that section. So designing all of those sections and then potentially finding money to build those sections. We we'd like to build the Side Road to Dr. Rich section a year from now is our goal to do that. The other sections we're not about yet. I think Joe's got information that DOT may be willing to program some of those sections in their stip. Um and then with the um boardwalk project um probably more than 10 years ago there was an effort to have a committee to talk about this boardwalk and I know Diane was on that committee. Lee I was involved in that as well and the town um was doing a boardwalk throughout this whole area. Um, as Joe mentioned, it kind of got shelved until we figured out what the visitors bureau was going to do on that site. And now that it's been rejuvenated, um, the town had a discussion about it. The board had a discussion about it last month and they agreed to start looking into the town's portion of this project, which is good timing. I think Commissioner Lambert brought it up that it's something that maybe we should start exploring again and so um you know there is there is an interest on behalf of the board I think to to do this as well. Um with respect to the the zoning you know Joe mentioned a lot of interesting points about the zoning. One of the things that Kelly's talked about for a long time is the what you see out there a lot of the recreation uses. Some of the sites are purely recreation like the or the golf. There's a few sites that are purely recreation. And one of the reasons why that is is because if you have a recreation use as your principal use, you can't have another principal use. I think this is something that the

planning board has talked about for a while and and we have SP 382, but you know, as long as there's no opposition from property owners to explore making the zoning more flexible, then that's probably in light of 382 there's certain things that you couldn't further restrict but maybe some of these things would incentivize people to do things you know that are more in line with this plan um we are looking at two uh traffic improvements one would be at Lakeside Street and this is something that came up as part of the hotel discussion and I think the town sort of committed seeing about a traffic light there. So, something we're currently exploring. Talked to the district engineer just two weeks ago and we're going to be presenting a reimbursement agreement to the board some point in the future to to get that project started to do that traffic light at Lakeside, but also we're talking about doing a traffic light here at the event site. DOT has told us they would approve something there that would really just function mainly when there's an event. But initially we looked at a sort of a specialized type of signal called a hawk signal. Once we were told by DOT we couldn't put that right at the entrance to the u to the event site because of the way it functions. So we would have to look at more of a four-way type signal. And so that's something we're currently talking to and Diane about. And so that that could alleviate some pressure at the event site during events to have a lot of our staff out there. Certainly on a normal day, if you start to see more day use of the event site and people going going to the site from the east and jogging and whatnot, it creates a an easy way for people to get across the road there with the push button crosswalk. So,

um it's something that we'd like to talk to the visitors bureau about further and I think you know they approved the hawk signal as part of the grant last year. Are you saying hawk? Hawk. Okay. Yeah. This was the the pedestrian type signal,

right? Um, so we're sort of trying to regroup with them on on that. The last thing I'll say is that the town has been working with them on a living shoreline project which was part of our shoreline management plan. And so we have about a million dollars in grant funds to do that project there on the site. And we're going to be meeting over there on Thursday at the visitors bureau meeting to go over that with their board since it's something that they're they would eventually own. um it's something that they need to have input on as part of the design. So, so a lot of sort of moving parts,

ancillary things happening that kind of play into this whole discussion and maybe help support it to a degree. So, absolutely make everybody aware of all those things. Yeah, thank you. It's helpful for our discussions. Could you just um just give me an example of the zoning clarification that you're talking about? So you're saying that the businesses there that are zoned in recreation can't have another they can't do anything else but recreation if if that's what maybe Kelly would be a good to explain that you know but like if you if you're like the go contract could you come in and build a fullfledged restaurant on that site as well

um I don't know that I'm any [Laughter] So I guess I don't need this but essentially the way it reads now is um if you are in the commercial recreation overlay district and and your principal use is recreation.

You cannot have two principal uses on your property. You can have a principal and an accessory. And it out the types of accessories that you can have um like concession stand, something like that. You couldn't have another full-fledged principal restaurant on your property.

So um you know in this case someone could potentially have their outdoor wreck and a principal restaurant or principal retail. Like right now you can have your recreation but your retail has to be ancillary and subordinate. you couldn't have two independent principles functioning um separately. That's something that we're thinking about is opening that up um so that you can have multiple principal uses occurring at the same time. And if you had that, they would both have to have the parking standard of a principal business.

Yes, it lot coverage wouldn't change. um storm water management, architecture, uh things like that would all still be in place. Sideyard setbacks would be the same as principal and parking would be would be parked as a principal unless your principal uses are offset with time. Uh if one's uh more utilized in the morning and one's more utilized at night, perhaps there's a path to overlay your parking in that regard. But otherwise, they would have to be parked independently. Okay. Anybody else have questions on that issue or any issue? Okay. Did anybody else want to speak to us with us?

Hi, my name is Joanna Tucker. I work for the Keith Corporation that recently bought Outlet Snag Head earlier this year and um I am the on-site general manager here. But the Keith Corporation would be extremely um supportive of the boardwalk connecting us to the event site and all along there in an effort to improve the center since purchasing. Um ideas that have gone around a boardwalk has always been under discussion with with ownership. So, they're very supportive. Um, as it is, we serve as overflow parking for event site events all the time. I've already been contacted by Brut and Seafood Festival, the car show in the spring, the Soundside Markets during the summer. Um, people frequently park in our parking lot, which we allow and it's fine, but they have to walk along the road to get to the event site. So having that boardwalk to connect us and

certainly be a safer avenue for them to to get to the event site. But just just for our two cents, we'd be very supportive boardwalk. Thank you for your comments. When you all have challenge with parking sometimes anyway, yeah, sometimes the businesses are busy. That's good. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Thank you for your comments. Anybody else want to speak to us this morning? Okay, great. Anybody have qu other questions for staff? Joe, are you going to wrap up for us or

uh just say thanks everybody? Thanks for coming out your comments and thanks for coming. I appreciate you guys. And we'll follow up. Um maybe maybe we'll do this again when when the weather's a little better and try try and get a couple more property owners out. And I think as the discussion continues perhaps people will hear or see what went on today and have questions or concerns and you know we'll hear from them one way or the other when construction begins. You'll probably get some

when the construction begins. Yes, that'll be that'll be good. Thank you. Okay, great. Um we're going to move on then. We're going to move back um in our agenda to our um first action item, which is consideration of proposed text amendments to the unified development ordinance as it relates to um proposed updates to the town's crowd gathering permit process. And Miss Wyatt is presenting.

Yes. All right. Um, so as you mentioned, uh, this item is going to be a text amendment request as it relates to, um, updating the town's, uh, process for crowd gathering permits. Um, at the board of commissioners August meeting, our town manager, Andy Garmin, um, provided an update that we are interested in amending chapter 4 of the town's crowd gathering. um permit section that relates to crowd gathering activities, pickets, parades, outdoor amusements, and demonstrations and provided a link in your packet that takes you to that entire um ordinance specifically. Um the request for an opportunity to look at these ordinances and potentially revise them stems from observations where we've had permitted events that generated a larger impact to to our um public safety in particular and to our public services department. Um and the example that we have in here is perhaps where um you have an event that is that goes through the crowd gathering permit process um and it's approved, but then there's little offshoots of that event that attend uh occur throughout the town. Um that requires more of their staffing to deal with. Um so obviously uh the soundside event site

as well as Dowy Park are two of the predominant places within the town that get a lot of usage. Um so those are the areas that we wanted to um to focus on with this. So I did put in your packet chapter 4 um is part of the town code. It's not part of the unified development ordinance. So it doesn't to that section doesn't necessarily have to go through the same public hearing process. Um it's considered police power. It can just go directly to the board of commissioners. But obviously we want to be transparent, have everyone know what's happening. Um so we'll continue to update on that. Uh the one section, well there's actually two sections that we're asking um consideration of today. And um that first one is as it relates to the designated public event site, which is um the soundside event site. U the way the or the definition um is written, it it doesn't say that it's specifically the soundside event site, but that is the only site within the town. Um if you were around when this came on board. Um the definition, the conditions, things like that were were written very tightly geared specifically to this site. Um, so we wanted to make some amendments not only to the definition but um to the supplemental requirements as well that essentially says um that permits that are being reviewed for events on the designated public event site, they have to follow the same um timeline and process as the crowd gathering permit. So D and probably know this, Lori, as well. They do right now anyway. Um, but

the way the ordinance is written, there's actually a much more compressed timeline. Um, see if I can pull it up. So this would be uh you can see what we're propo proposing to add in red and underline and what we're proposing to strike. Um, but as you can see, this would this essentially says uh that they would need to make application 14 days prior to the initiation of any event. And um I don't know that we've ever done that. They've always followed the rules for the crowd gathering and made their applications well in advance. um oftent times months in advance to be able to have the time to go through the process, meet with staff, and um work out any issues. So, this was just an opportunity as they were looking at chapter 4 to just make sure we're aligned um with the language for the designated public event site as well as um what we have for chapter 4. And then, let's see. The other amendment um that was relevant to our definitions was uh outdoor place of amusement and outdoor entertainment as well as place of amusement and entertainment. So in looking at chapter 4 this section of the code you can at the language and tell that this was probably something that was drafted very early on, probably late 70s, 80s. We talk about beer halls and billure halls and

things like that and it's just not been looked at since then to be honest. Um, so as we're looking at the overhaul and looking at this, it's like, okay, we don't even refer to uses in this same fashion anymore. Um, a lot of the uses we now have covered in the zoning. what was the zoning ordinance, now the UDO. Um, so the proposal would just be to essentially for the most part eliminate this section as it's written in chapter 4 and shift it to the UDO. Um, because that's really it. It lives there anyway. Um, so don't have it duplicated and then also to just bring it up to date. And in doing that, um, there was really one thing that we wanted to make sure we didn't lose that was in chapter 4, and that was some hours of operation placed on um, places of amusement or entertainment. And it essentially says you can't operate between the hours of midnight and 7 a.m. We don't have any businesses that are doing that right now anyway. To be honest, I've never looked at this section of the code and thought, I need to apply that. It's never been an issue,

but it is in there. It wasn't in the UDO, so we just didn't want to lose it. Um, so the amendments, like I said, more broadly, we're looking at chapter 4 in totality. Um, but these two sections as far as the designated public event site and then places of amusement, we just wanted to make sure that they were up to date, more accurate to today's code language, and that we didn't lose anything um, in terms of regulation. Um, so I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have. Um, we've got the draft ordinances in your packet. We did include, um, like I said, there's a link to chapter 4 if you're interested. looking at that in its totality. And then we also included um this section of outdoor amusements which was like I said outdated but this way you could see it in its totality and know what we're proposing to um to amend.

Kelly, I got a question. you you talked about offshoot demonstrations or or whatnot on a on a permitted event and where are those and what what kind of stuff are we talking about? Um, so I hate to do this, but one of the more prominent things, um, would be I think it's the I think it's the rod and custom, the larger event

um, with the cars down here at the public event site. Everything that's proposed at the event site is spot-on, perfect, compliant with the code. But then after the event, um I think some of the um people with the vehicles decide that they're going to meet at Ben Franklin or Fresh Market or Satderfield Landing or somewhere else. Okay.

And have a little mini car show that was not reviewed or discussed or approved in any fashion. Um also it tends to be during that time frame you know we have more traffic violations in terms of um disregarding speed limits um doing burnouts noise things like that. So again nothing that could be helped um on behalf of the permitting process that we have internally. It just springs up um afterwards. Um and before sometimes

and before that, as you all know, I'm sure that's all over. That's from Southern Shores to South Net. The Delta Center up there gets a lot of that, too. But just Okay, that wasn't even my in my mindset. I was thinking about some of the summers like the No Kings thing at Dowy Park or the the event they just had Sunday night. when you see people along the sidewalks with their signs and whatnot. That's is that all part of the permitted gathering?

It is. So that's in the broader chapter 4. Um and I will use my own link that I provided in your packet to go there. Um let's see. All right. So up on your screen, this is the entirety of chapter 4. You can see over here it speaks to outdoor performances, crowd gatherings, um and temporary structures, indoor assemblies, uh parades, picket lines, group demonstrations. So a lot of um what you've seen at Dowy Park has gone through the group demonstration process. permitting. Um, if you look at group demonstrations, pickets parades, there's specific language in here about where those can be held. And it does speak to they are permitted along sidewalks, um, along public rideways. So, see if I can actually find that for you.

That's okay. Okay. You don't have to find the detail. I was just more curious if that was one of those offshoot pieces you were talking about. That is not that those have been permitted events. Um the offshoot is when we have a permitted event that then tends to pop up elsewhere in the town where there's been no consideration

um for parking, for businesses, for tenants, for safety, for things like that. Um but the things that have occurred at Dowy um the no kings and the visual that was held on Sunday um that those did go through the process. They did submit paperwork um sometimes those things aren't represented factually on the paperwork that were given and they're larger um than proposed and those are just things that we can't yeah address unfortunately. Okay. Thanks Kelly. Is the beach included as a public event site?

The beach it is not. So the only designated public event site is the soundside event site. Okay. Activities on the beach are right. Okay. Okay. Can you repeat Andy's comments just for people who are tuning in? Oh, any activities on the beach are regulated by this ordinance under chapter 4?

Just Okay. So, yes, if we had a crowd gathering proposal on the beach, like the surfing contests, things of that nature, um they all go through the crowd gathering process, the ESAs, things like that. They've all submitted their application. It's reviewed by police, fire, public works, planning. There's coordination for they even get camo permits now when they're using scaffolding and the larger bleachers and things like that out on the beach. Um, so there there is that process.

Who's the who? Not who necessarily by name, the crowd permit coordinator. Is that handled in the planning department or um, so no, the crowd permit coordinator would essentially be our deputy town clerk. Okay.

Um, it was Michelle Gray. It's now Katie Enzelone. She works alongside the town clerk. So when these applications are made, it's filtered through there first. Um, uh, Katie is going to make sure that it's a complete application and then she's going to coordinate with the, um, uh, event site or if it's not at the event site. Um, she's going to coordinate with whoever is involved in terms of the the location that's being held and then pull in staff. Um essentially all the department heads are invited to a meeting in the conference room with the applicant um of the event and we discuss things like you know what's needed in terms of law enforcement. If it's a larger event um they're going to need uh perhaps offduty police officers there to manage that. Um when you have things down at the soundside event site, uh people crossing the road perhaps and we have officers down there at that point, you know, helping run that crosswalk. Um fire, uh EMS, they're oftentimes part of the conversation as well. So my job's easy. It's predominantly signage, but um yeah, everybody's at the table trying to make sure that the every aspect of the event is reviewed and taken care of. Like I said, sometimes things get through us, get past us or they just don't they don't go through the process. But

and so the number is 100. Anything expected more than 100 is the kind of the benchmark for when a crowd gathering permit is required.

It is um if you if there's going to be more than a hundred people in attendance, then that's what kicks in the crowd gathering permit. process. Um, we're not there yet, but as I said, in addition to this, uh, we're looking at amending the entirety of chapter 4. And so that's that's not related to this amendment. Um, but and Andy might be able to speak more to this, but we're in the process of doing it in tears. So like events that have between you know maybe zero to 100 or zero to 200 have to meet these requirements 250 to 500 these requirements 500 and more um because there you know there really are some events that maybe don't need as many eyes on them as others and and others need a lot more eyes on them. So part of this process with chapter 4 is creating a tiered system um for review but right now the only number we have is 100 and so that's what triggers crowd gathering or not crowd gathering.

Gotcha.

One last question. Um is the 14-day minimum requirement already in place? So the 14 days is um was part of the supplemental regulations for the event site. Um but the moment they started having large events there, we collaborated and said, "Yeah, I know 14 days isn't enough. We need you to go through the the crowd gathering process." And from the beginning, they've done that. So the 14 days was never, in all honesty, it's never followed. So that's why we're proposing to strike it and just make it more consistent with the current crowd gathering requirements.

Again, just for instance, this Sunday night thing that was just held at um at Dowy Park that came up in only a matter of days. So that's that's not spontaneous, but quickly organized events like that will still be able to be held if if they go through the proper channels and reviews.

So um it's a difficult question. Um, typically I think had the application that was submitted um been more representative of their expectation um it would not have gotten approved so quickly. It was submitted on Friday. It was received on Friday. It was signed off on Friday because of the information that they had placed on the permit. For instance, that 100 that expected attendance of a hundred, it didn't they put 50 and a question mark. So, um it did not on its face rise to the level of needing the crowd gathering review. Um but yes, knowing what occurred and what happened, um it it would have needed more time. It would it it should have been submitted well in advance. We would have loved to have had 14 days or 30 days um to sit down with town staff, go through the process, review it, have input from all the various departments um and approach it that way. So um Sunday night was unfortunate the it was misrepresented. The information we received was misrepresented. So we were unable to um process it properly if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does. And I'm neither for nor against that that that gathering on Sunday night. It's just a good recent example as we're talking about this, you know. Yeah. So, thanks. Of course. Anybody else questions, comments? So, what's before us this morning is the proposed text amendments to the UDO. Um, and we've we've seen those and we've gone over those. um the the rewrite of chapter 4 is separate from us and not it won't you know it's not on the table today and it won't you know won't be before us. So what do we say? We will absolutely keep you updated on the

Oh, thank you. We appreciate that. I'm just trying to um So what's everybody thinking about the text amendment? Today's text amendment. I think it makes sense now that we've kind of talked through, right, the reasons and the how it works with chapter 4 and all that, right? Just neatening it up really. And having it, you know, make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody kind of in agreement? Yes. Am I sensing consensus? Yes. Molly? Yes. Okay, good. So, um, can I get a motion? I'll make a motion to approve it as submitted.

Okay, I have a motion, second and a second. Any further discussion or Okay, great. All in favor? I. Anybody opposed? Okay, great. We'll move on. Sorry, I missed the beer hall. You missed the beer. I know. Beer halls aren't allowed. It's the good old That was the good old days. Casino. Just call it the casino instead of calling it beer halls. Right. And to Joe's presentation, bars aren't allowed. That was a micro brewery. I know. I thought it was I thought it was a wedding going on up there, too, Joe. So, you're okay. We know it wasn't a bar.

Okay, great. So, we are through action. I'm confused here. So, we're through that action item one and we're going to move on to a report of the BOC's actions from their September 3rd meeting.

Yeah, we'll just go through this quickly. Um, we did a proclamation for uh Septic Smart Week, which is September 15th through the 19th. So, we're right in the middle of it. So, everybody take good care of your septic systems. If you need anything, let us know. Um we had request for public hearing for text amendment to the UDO um related to uh the parking reduction of parking that we're required to do based on uh statutes. So, that's going to be going um to public hearing. And we had a public hearing to consider the text amendment for TWWs to reduce the separation between buildings from 20 to 10. And um as the planning board recommended denial, the board of commissioners also unanimously um denied the ordinance as it was permitted. and uh we gave this uh our planning director's report. We discussed uh all the amazing things that our event coordinator Paige Griffin is doing out at Dowy Park. Um so we want to give her props for all of that. Uh deputy planning director Joe Costello gave his presentation on the boardwalk as well as an update on the Estrin Shoreline management plan. Um and then the board also approved um the manager and Joe as um primary agent and secondary agent for um uh some opportunities with a hazard mitigation grant program for either acquiring um properties on the beach or elevating properties on the beach. And I think Joe might have spoken to that earlier. We have one person who is potentially interested in doing that. Um he has a property down in South Max Head east of

the Static Line. Um he's interested, he's exploring it. Um but we had to go ahead and designate Joe as the agent for that to proceed. And that was it.

Great. Thank you for the report. Anyone questions about the board of commissioners meeting September 3rd? Town updates? I don't think been any requested town updates. So, we'll finish our discussion items and move on to um item two, which is discussion of multif family dwelling development as an accessory to commercial development. All right. So, for this one, um it's a long staff report because there was a lot of history and hopefully everyone's had a to go through it. I won't go through it verbatim um because y'all lived it and you know it. Um but essentially when we completed our process for reintroducing multifamily back into the UDO, we acknowledged that we also need to explore a process for allowing multifamily um on existing commercial sites. Um, so what we were dealing with was from scratch vacant lot. How are we going to develop large or small multif family that say you've got shops at 10.5 and they want to provide housing for their employees. They want to do some type of multif family on the lot. How do we even approach that? Because it was already developed to commercial standards. they, you know, they came in under um commercial lot coverage, storm water. They might have even maxed out some of that stuff. So, how would we deal with that? How would we look at it if they wanted to provide employee housing? And of course, that's something that we want. Um and so at the at that time, we had come up with essentially two options which we

included in your packet. One was just essentially providing um just a a static number of units that could potentially be allowed for commercial developments. The other one was trying to apply that same floor area ratio that we talked about um when we did multifamily trying to layer that on top of the existing development. Um so those two options were included in your packet. And then I also did want to highlight because I think this got lost in the conversation with multifamily. We do allow commercial with accessory um residential. That's been in our code for a really long time. Um and the language it's on the uh screen but included here as well. Um, accessory residentials, accessory residential units can be single family attached or detached units allowed on the same property and in conjunction with an existing commercial use. Um, they're going to be different from an ADU. As we know, we're not there yet. We don't have we don't allow ADUs yet. Um, but uh you can have these uh with the criteria that's noted. Uh the commercial use may have up to two accessory residential units that are attached or detached. Uh the residential uses must be located above or to the rear of the primary commercial use and must and must meet the principal setbacks. Um and each unit should not exceed 1500 square feet in area. And we actually I included this because um Farm Dog Surf School at 2403 South Rightsville Avenue within the past two

years has actually applied this and it seems to be working really well. um they have their principal commercial on the north side of the building and then they converted the rest of the building into two um accessory residential units for their staff. So that's in the ordinance. It has been used. It has been done successfully. What this would be is something above and beyond that, something more than the two units. Um And so let's see here, Kelly. It looks It doesn't look like the ordinance say it has to be used for staff. Does Does it say specifically that anywhere?

What was the question? Does it does it specifically have to be used for staff or can it just be a unit? So we don't say that now, right? We don't. Um, thanks. Um, it's been it's been pretty easy. uh in terms of having conversations with people that principal accessory the accessory has to be for the comfort and convenience of the principal. So I've always been able to make that connection that it's accessory residential. So the residential has to be tied to the principal

and the easiest path to that is you know it's got to be for the comfort and convenience of the principal. So they have to be the people residing in the accessory have to be affiliated with a principle somehow. You're right. The definition doesn't expressly say that. But today um that's been the understanding that's been sort of the connect the dot that I've used in my conversations and it's it's been successful. Um but you're not wrong. It might be nice to to put that in there more explicitly. I agree. Um yes,

I agree. anywhere in the regulation. Let's say there's a business and let's say they have two accessory units that were built originally with the intent of staff living there. and at some point staff opts not to live there or the owner of the building determines they can collect a little bit more rent if they rent it out to someone who is running a business out of that space. And I use this as an example because many many years ago in my younger days in Virginia Beach, I lived in an accessory dwelling unit over a restaurant in which I worked and later that became a real estate office.

That's not contemplated in this, but I appreci Yeah, I mean, thank you for bringing that up.

It's worth noting um This would strictly when we look at this, this would strictly be for residential purposes, would strictly be connected to um working for that business and a conversation that we would have to have much like multif family about deed restriction and what restrictions are we going to place on it? What restrictions would um would be placed on these units? That's certainly something that we can talk more about. And again, I put these questions in here for you today. Um, but I did want to make clear my expectation is not that we're doing a deep dive into this today and creating any um, ordinance language, per se. We talked about it. It was on our radar for a long time. It fell off our radar. Um, so I wanted to bring it back up and now seems like an appropriate time. So I more than anything I wanted to give you background and history on how we got here. Um, I did include the multif family ordinance in your packet as we have it today because some of the questions speak to if we're going to allow it as an accessory to existing commercial, are we looking at small multif family? Will we prefer to see that small multif family option on an existing commercial site or do we not care? Um, things like that. So, I'm happy answer any questions. Like I said, more than anything, I just wanted to get this on your radar. There are some questions in here um that perhaps we can discuss today or um we can bring back at our next meeting. I just wanted to make sure you all had time to think about it.

Something that uh sort of fits into this definition has sprung up not in the town of Nagad, but at 4 and a half mile post. You will notice two brand new accessory dwelling units built above that strip shopping center. Um I support the idea of accessory dwelling units over these businesses because every little bit helps in a housing shortage. So, and it would seem to me to follow up on that that the fact that there's only two allowed 1500 square feet that would fall under small.

So, this is just something that's in there. Now, what we're proposing would be something separate, okay, from this, okay? Um, so we've already gotten two units taken care of. You can already do that. Um, but what we decide to do with this might supersede this. It might be more appealing than what this currently is. More appealing how? Yeah. Right now you can only have two, right?

They can only be 1500 square feet. But um if you're open to considering multifamily broadly and like I said you use this for area ratio like we have um I think we included I hope we included that example in your packet. Um yep here it is. So, we actually ran an option of what using the floor area ratio might look like for the shops at 10.5. Um, and this was based upon our multif family ordinance that we've already approved with a point F. So, when you look at this, um, only looking at the northern lot, not the bank, uh, not State Employees Credit Union, but, um, and the shops and then there is a a bank on an out parcel there. When you take that lot area um and you apply your floor area ratio and you deduct the area that is already there um that leaves about 41,000 square feet of area that could be dedicated to multifamily. And again in the previous ordinance we broke out minimum is for one bedroom, two bedroom, threebedroom. We just applied this across the board. Um, you could do it in any fashion. You could vary this, but doing 16 one-bedroom units, 35 two-bedroom units because two bedrooms seem to be the sweet spot. That's what most people wanted. Um, and then eight threebedroom units. you could have gotten um up to 59 units

at the shops at 10.5. So that's a question. Would you want 59 units? Would you want to cap? We talked about caps on the previous ordinance. Maybe if we do allow multifamily as an accessory to commercial, we we work out how we're going to get there, but then we also cap it if we feel like it's too much density. But like you say here, parking in subject would would prohibit 59. It would prevail. You couldn't support. Yeah, we didn't get that far with it. But I think if we did, you would find that that was the the um

we just kind of ran out we just kind of ran out of time, but I mean this was always part of the discussion, right? Yeah, it's true. So, yeah, we're just we're just coming back to it and it's a lot to digest and I know we've got new members, right?

Can you share with us a little bit about what kind of interest there's been in multif family around the planning department since the ordinance? Yeah. So, um, and Joe's had some conversations as well, but I have spoken with one person who had a cottage court approved um, several times, but it's not been developed. And they were potentially looking at some type of how would how would this small multifamily work on that property? it hasn't come to fruition, but there was interest.

Um, and then also speaking with a property owner who has two properties on um the bypass. Um, he was interested in doing some type of workforce housing. Um, the zoning in that area, it was part of the C5R3 um, resoning that we recently had. Um, and multif family is only allowed in the C2 as I'm sure you remember. So, um, for him to proceed with any type of multifamily, which he's very much interested in, he's probably also looking at a reasonzoning. Um, I don't want to get into the details of everything, but um, it's very it it seems likely that they could do an extension of the C5, which is already in the area, and we could at putting either small or large or both into the C5 to accommodate this if they want to pursue it. So there's there's been several I've had two inquiries. I think Joe has had one inquiry as well. Um so it has caught people's attention. The small

yes predominantly the small that's what we were hoping for. That is what we were hoping for. So, but we were also hoping or you know for to incentivize some of this type of development at the time it was that we wanted to come up with something that would would happen that would be buildable. So, it this is kind of continuing to move in that direction to it is try to make something happen. Yeah. And I would agree with David and I think we all agree that we know that workforce housing is an issue

and it's a tough nut to crack. You know, multif family dwellings are also, I think, cheaper to build, right? Like you share a wall next to your wall. So, this is this is a meeting by itself. Right. Right. We need to really spend some time on this. I I agree.

We also use the term workforce housing. It's it's become a tagline and obviously if people cannot afford very expensive housing, there's a good chance they probably are part of the workforce. Uh but there's another subset of residents of Nags Head and to a greater extent Der County who may not be part of the workforce but who also cannot afford very expensive housing. Um I think of retired people things like that. So you know this would be something attractive to that's upset also. Absolutely.

All right. Perfect. Like I said I didn't there was no expectation from this. I just wanted to get it on your radar. We'll talk about it again. Yeah. Okay. We'll see it again next month. Everyone be thinking about it after questions. We're gonna I think we're going to see it for a few months probably. Okay. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you. Um, and I guess you need to stay up there. Do you have anything for your director's report that you haven't covered some other place now?

Probably not. I don't think so. Um the only thing I would say is that we do this is related to our septic health advisory committee um and our septic health program is um we have an intern with us for the next couple of months um September, October and November. So, she's going to be helping out with some of her efforts with the septic health initiative in terms of getting hopefully more public engagement um accessing people, giving them the information and and luring them in so that we can do some septic inspections and locate their septic tank for them and let them know that we're here um if they have questions or issues. I feel like there's still people out there that don't know about the program. So, she's gonna she's young. She's got fresh ideas, so we're going to use those to hopefully get more engagement. Um, yeah, her name is Isabelle Paula, and hopefully I'll have her at one of our upcoming meetings.

Would that be great? October, like we'd like to meet her. Could you u I think I've asked you this question before, but could like if you get your septic tank pumped out, does the septic company tell the town that they did it or is it contingent on the contingent on the person telling the town, the homeowner? The person would need to submit their paid invoice for the pump and then that will then be applied as your water credit. Okay. For your upcoming water bill. So the septic um the septic company does provide a report. Okay. So you you are aware of what's happening. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. I was just wondering because I had like we had somebody come and work on our tank and I could never get a receipt from him. Like I mean I was like are you gonna send the receipt? Like and I finally just gave up. But like I was wondering if the town knew it that they had been to our home and I guess it sounds like you they have Yes. So there's a form um that Connor completes as well as their contractors if it's if it's one of our contractors that go out there. You know it generally the location um does it need to be pumped? Was the filter clogged? Just things of that nature and then some guidance if there is something needed if there's maintenance needed. what is that maintenance stuff like that.

That's good to know that's happening in the town so you you kind of have an idea of how many to So are you acting are you asking if that happens automatically whether you're applying for the credit or not? No, I wasn't really even talking about the credit. I'm just curious like does the town are you is the town aware of how much septic activity or cleaning activity is going on without people reporting it themselves? Because I would think a lot of people wouldn't report it themselves. Only if it goes through our program, right? That's the only way we know. Otherwise, yeah, they don't.

I I remember we had ID asked about this in the past um you know, when we were having non-compliant use going on and and people, you know, are are over over needing from their septic and the answer is no. Okay. It would be cool to know like if the reports from them like how many times they've worked in Nagad. So, one one of the things that um we've talked about doing, which it would be incredibly time consuming,

is anyone who applies for a permit through the Dair County Health Department that's that is online, but it would require staff going in there weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, downloading their permits, and then re-entering them into our program so that we could track It's not not doable. It's just something that we've not gotten to yet. And that's only with permits. Um, but I think I think Island and Atlantic I think most of the companies if they're working in NASA, they do try to tell their customers about our program

if nothing more to go get the um the credit. We've talked about ways um this is a whole another conversation, but we've talked No, it's good. Um, we've talked about maybe making brochures to give to Island in Atlantic and say, "Hey, when you're doing a job in a head, can you, you know, can you leave this at the side or can you give this to the person?" Because that would be a really good way to get the program up. That's a good idea. Yeah. I will say Connor makes it easy. I had ours done a couple summers ago and he's outstanding to work with. Yeah. Thank you. Okay, appreciate it.

That's all I ask for your report. No, anybody on members agenda? I have one thing. Um, we used to have meeting critiques at my previous job and I I thought today and we all know Kelly, we all know Andy, but we had some guests here and we had who knows watching online. I think it might be a good idea anytime even staff members go to the podium, they introduce themselves. Okay. Just, you know, to make it clear. Yeah. Or or maybe us too. I don't know.

People who are watching, well, we have our name tags, right? So, yeah, that's right. They can see that. But yeah, it's a good point. And when we have visitors like today, invited folks, I just want them to feel comfortable. I mentioned to them, you know, to say who they were when I guess everybody did, but yeah. It's probably a good idea. And I've had people say, that's why I said to like repeat Andy's comments because I've had people say to me, we don't we just hear someone talking in the back of the room, right? And you all are responding. And you know, so we do want to be as transparent as possible. Who's here? Yep. And who's speaking. So that's a good point. Anybody else members agenda? And I have nothing for my agenda this morning. So I will entertain a motion. I make a motion

to adjurnn. You you Okay. We have a motion, a second. We are adjourned. Thank you for coming.