Planning Board - Regular Meeting

All right. Good morning, planning board members. That's our our morning bell. Home room bell. Um, this is home room.

This is home room. It's where all the fun stuff happens. Um, so since this is our first meeting of 2026, we do not currently have a chair and vice chair nominated. So that's going to be our first order of business this morning. Um, and once we do that, once we nominate a chair, I will then hand the meeting over to the chair and they can go through the process of nominating the vice chair. So with that to start off, do we have any nominations for chair of planning board? Yes, I'd like to nominate me Gwyn for chair. Okay, we have a nomination.

Can I second that, please? Okay, we have a second. Any discussion? Okay, everybody in favor say I. I. Any opposed? It doesn't look like it. Okay, Mr. Quinn, you are chair of the planning board for calendar year 2026. You want to hand it over to you? Thank you so much, Kelly. And good morning, everybody. Um, the next order of business then is to elect the vice chair. And do I have any nominations for the vice chair? I'll nominate David Elder. David, I second.

We have a second. Any discussion. All in favor say I. I. I. Anything else? David, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you all. You get the Do I have to move? Do I have to move now? Do we want to move now? Do you want to rearrange now? We can do it next next next time. Next month. Okay. This is my first time. So, one time. Um okay then the meeting will call to order and um I need an approval of the agenda. Can I can I make a motion to approve the agenda as to approve? Thank you. Any second?

I'll second. A second. All in favor? I. Thank you. Okay. Public comment. Um do we have we have somebody? We do. Good morning. Thank you. Good. Yes. Let us know who you are and all of that. That would be helpful.

Sure. Um my name is Hillilary McCubbins. Um Nagad resident live in Nagad Ponds. Um I was looking over agenda me agenda minutes or meeting minutes from this past fall and something kind of caught my eye and I wanted to talk about it today. Um this was when uh this was in September and bringing up the um accessory unit or accessory dwelling for multifamily or multif family accessory units for commercial development I believe is what the heading was called. Um and this particular quote caught my eye and I wanted to discuss it. um they will need to tighten up the language to ensure that any housing is for those working for the businesses maybe through deed restrictions. I wanted to talk about this because I don't think it's a good idea to tie an individual's housing to their place of work. It can hamper a person's ability to seek another job to either increase their pay or to find work conditions that are better suited for them. If a worker living above or on the property of their place of work wants to improve their situation, not only do they need to find a new job, but now they also need to find new housing, which is increasingly difficult in this area. If deed restrictions were on the table for these accessory units, I believe that the language should be broadened to something along the lines of Dare County resident or employed in Dare County instead. And I would just like for the planning board, since this is going to be an ongoing discussion that will come up at some point this year, I'm sure. Um, I

would like for the planning board to be mindful of how this idea of deed restricting to the particular business in question would make it harder for someone of an already vulnerable population, low-wage workers um, and people that are generally already struggling because they're low-wage workers. to improve their circumstances by making it harder to seek a higher pay position elsewhere or to leave a job that is just not serving them. And that's all I had to say. Thank you very much. Is there anybody else that would like to speak this morning?

Hearing none. Thank Thank you. And we'll move on to approval of the minutes. Can I make a motion to approve the minutes as We have a motion to approve the minutes. Do we have a second? I'll second. We have a second. Thank you very much. All in favor? I say I. I. Okay. Thank you. Minutes are approved and let's move on to the action items. Um the special use permit review being submitted by Albamar Associates on behalf of Coastal Bluewater Capital. Kelly,

thank you so much. Try to scale down the site plan so we can look at it as we talk through this item. So, this likely isn't um too unfamiliar to everyone on the board today. We did see this last month for sketch plan. So, in terms of um the site, very little has changed. There are a couple little things though. Um, as noted, the applicant here is Albam Marl and Associates on behalf of Coastal Bluewater LLC and TWW's Bay and Tackle. We do have um the architect and engineer here today um for the application. So, this is a special use permit site plan review. Um you'll note later in the packet we talk about how this is considered a group development and group development is special use in the C2. Um the permit request includes the following elements and this is not unlike what you heard at sketch plan is conversion of the recently approved 4,774 square foot storage building which is connecting the principal retail building and the existing storage building to retail. And that would result in a building containing uh 14,024 square ft of retail space and 4,250 ft of storage. And then next is construction of a new 6,750 square ft detached building divided into two units. And uh if you can see my

cursor, that's going to be this building. Unit one is proposed to consist of 2500 square feet of retail and 1,000 square feet of accessory storage. Unit two is proposed to consist of 3,250 square ft of storage which would be accessories to TWW bait and tackle. So um looking at this just kind of for some understanding where my cursor is here this is the existing TWW's retail building. This is the area that was originally approved for storage but part of this application would be converted to retail. This is the existing storage area um accessory storage for TWWs. Then we have a little breezeway here connecting to building it's what's referred to as building B and C. So, the freezeway is going to open up into unit two, which is entirely storage. Um, and if I'm wrong, the applicant can correct me, but I think that uh the idea here would be that product came into this building and then flowed this way. So storage came into this building. It was taken from this storage to this storage and then ran through the principal. Um so that would be the flow there with accessory storage and principal. And then unit two, that's the unit um that's going to have the combination of retail and storage. And we do not yet know who the tenant of that space would

be. Um but moving forward that's um what it would be geared towards is advertised for is retail and storage. Um the next building which is uh building A um is a new 3000 square foot detached building consisting of 2,000 square feet of art gallery. and thousand square feet of storage accessory to the art gallery. So, there's a little difference from what we heard last time. Um, last time this was going to be retail and storage and now that we're looking at it, uh, they're looking at this as being an art gallery as opposed to retail. So, um, the only difference there is the parking standard is a little different. So, um, but Art gallery is allowed in the C2 and art gallery is allowed as part of a group development. So all of that is still consistent. Um your property location um as you know probably from our sketch uh this is the existent vacant lot west of TWWs um is what we're looking at. Um surrounding properties are predominantly C2. Um but you do have a little bit of C3 to the west and that's the village um real estate rental management facility back there. Uh this is not located in a flood zone per FEMA, but per our ordinance, it does have to meet a 9- foot regulatory flood protection elevation. And um all the existing buildings meet that nine and they have first floor elevations proposed at 11 feet for those new buildings. So those would be compliant.

As far as the um land use plan goes, our future land use map considers this general commercial. So group development is going to be consistent with that. Um, as I noted earlier, as far as the use goes, um, commercial mixed use is allowed in the C2 district and section 7.32 spells out the various things that are allowed in a group development and everything that we're talking about here is permitted. Um I did want to note for information in our definitions, group development um is considered to be a group of buildings on a single site that are occupied and used for professional offices, retail, personal services, indoor recreation, and or restaurant. Um it doesn't specifically list our gallery, but when you go back to 732, our gallery is listed there. Um, appendix A4 also defines general retail as an establishment providing goods directly to the consumer for immediate purchase and removal. Um, also we talk about what an accessory use and an accessory structure is. Um, so an accessory structure is going to be one that is incidental and customarily found with the principal use, subordinate to and serving the principal use, subordinate in area, extent or purpose, and contributing to the needs or convenience of the principal use. So all of that is just to reiterate the storage spaces that we're showing here um can't just be a standalone storage. It's got to be for the convenience of whatever the principal um is on site. Um lot coverage for the property, it can

be 55% and they've proposed this at 54.3. So we're compliant there. Um maximum allowable building height is 35. You can bump that if you use an A12 roof pitch. Um looking at the elevations, they have not done that. So, they're held to that 35 and um that's what they're coming in at, right at the 35. So, no wiggle room. Um if this were to be approved, um they would need height certificates as soon as possible during construction to make sure that it is compliant. Um, with regard to commercial design standards, um, as I've noted in your packet, you can achieve compliance in two ways there. Um, one being through earning 150 architectural design points, the other through demonstrating compliance with um, commercial design standards, division 2 building design. Um the applicant has elected to demonstrate compliance through division 2 building design. Uh staff did complete a detailed review of the architectural renderings and documented its findings in a separate attachment titled uh TWW's group development architectural review notes. Uh this evaluates the proposal against these design standards and based upon that review staff finds that the proposed development does not fully comply with the commercial design standards as noted in article 10 division 2 of the UDO. Um, instead of flipping back and forth between the site plan and architectural renderings, um, I think if it's okay with you, I'll go ahead and proceed with this basic stuff. Um, and then we can talk in more detail about the architecture. But in

general when you look at those architectural notes um it appears that um kind of the crux of the non-compliance comes from the height of the building and the interest to use a metal building um with a height of I think it's 26 feet. Um, so it's hard to uh meet some of our architectural design standards, things like um porches and pitched roof, some of the things that um help provide that human scale feel um is difficult to meet in this scenario. So, like I said, I've detailed that out um and hopefully everyone's had a chance to look at it. Um but for now um we'll we'll move on to parking and then kind of bounce back to that. Um so for parking uh required parking by use for group development shall be calculated based upon the individual uses themselves. Um so and also accessory parking uh when that storage is uh specifically accessory to the principal there is no standard. So, we're just looking at parking the principal uses. Um, so, um, I also did note floor plans don't expressly delineate what's retail, what's art gallery, and what's storage, and what's not. Um, that's helpful. At some point, we are going to need that. I understand that they may not know where that line is right now, not knowing who their tenant uh might be, but that is going to be very important for us. Um

so um that being said, uh the required parking for general retail is one space per 250 square feet of gross floor area plus one per employee with a minimum of two per unit uh per retail unit. So based on this standard 66 parking spaces are required to reserve to um accommodate all the retail components of the development and the required parking for art gallery is one space per 300 square feet of floor area open to the public. So, with 2,000 square feet of art gallery, that's going to require seven parking spaces. And the applicant has also indicated that the group development in its entirety would employ seven employees, resulting in a total um of 80 spaces being required. So, in January of 2023, the property owner received approval through a special use permit process to reduce overall parking. At that time it was for the TWWs but now that these lots have been combined it's considered one group development. Um but through that process you can reduce uh your parking up to three required parking spaces in exchange for providing three compliant bicycle racks in accordance with the UDO. um that with that approved reduction applied, the total required parking spaces for this development is 77 and they are showing um that this site can accommodate 79 parking spaces. So therefore, parking would be compliant. Um let's see if I can scroll down here to our landscape plan. I think that would be beneficial for a next conversation.

Okay. So, um there's multiple requirements that relate to landscaping and buffering. Um the first one is parking and drive setbacks. that requires a um 10- foot wide uh parking buffer be provided when you've got parking adjacent to a um street right away. And so on this you can see they've provided that you've got Satderfield Landing to your north and anywhere there's parking abuing um they've provided um landscaping and buffering. You will note at each driveway uh there's sort of a sight triangle that we have to maintain. We can't put um large trees there. We can put some low grasses and things like that, but they've um designated that and still provided the needed um buffer there. Um also we have commercial transitional protective yards um that states uh it requires an enhanced buffer to be provided when you have a commercial use abuing a residential zoning district or a residential use. Typically that's a 10- foot wide buffer unless it's considered a high impact use. And when it's a high impact use, that buffer goes from 10 feet to 25 feet with three rows of plantings. Um, and so back here, um, this is residential. It's zoned R2. So they do have their 25 foot buffer. Um, and they do have, um, three rows of compliant landscaping proposed. um along this rear. They've also designated where their um

Hback is so that will not interfere with that. Moving on to interior parking and landscaping. um that requires that parking lot landscaping be provided at a minimum rate equal to 10% of the total area of the parking spaces. Um they would need uh 660 square feet of vegetation in these little pockets around the proposed new parking and they have 680. So they're compliant there. Um, as far as vegetation and uh either planting new vegetation or preserving existing vegetation on site, um, you can opt to preserve 10% of the total area or you have to plant 15% of the total area. Um, and this site had been previously graded. Um, and a lot of the vegetation has been removed, if not all of it. So, they were looking having to plant the entire 15% of the lot area. And um a lot of this information is included down in the notes right here. Um but they're required to preserve uh or to plant an area of 7,939 square feet. And looking at this, they're at approximately 9,000 square feet of um area of new plantings. And the ordinance does speak to the amount that you can if it's a required buffer as part of your um uh parking lot buffer or part of your interior landscaping, you can only use about half of that towards your preservation. So that's why

there's a little bit more there. Um but they are well um exceeding compliance in that area. Um, for lighting, as you can see, they did provide a lighting plan, full transparency. I have not had a chance to look at it. Um, I glanced at it. The fixture appears compliant. The numbers appear compliant. Um, but for the time being, I just put in here that prior to any installation of lighting on site, um, we would have to have a formal review and issuance of permit for that. But what they've provided does appear to be compliant. Um, In terms of signage, they haven't proposed any new signage with this, but it would have to comply with the UDO. Um, there's going to be allowances for larger signage adjacent to 158. Uh, that's going to be your 64 square foot freestanding sign. There is an allowance for signage adjacent to two-lane roadways. So there will be an opportunity for them to provide a smaller sign adjacent to Satderfield Landing, but again that would come in a separate packet for us to review. Um they are working closely with the Dair County Health Department to get their septic approval. Um and it's my understanding that that's um soon to be in hand, but as soon as we have that, we'll upload it to the packet. We're likely going to have it prior to BOC review. Um, but at any rate, a building permit would not be issued until we do have that. Uh, traffic circulation has been reviewed and approved by the town engineer as well as storm water management. Um, as always with any of these projects, the project does have to comply with the North Carolina Fire Prevention Code. Um and uh public services has looked at this and noted

that the location of uh the dumpster right here where you can see my cursor um that's a perfect location for our new um front load sanitation trucks for them to get in and out. So um with that being said, try to scroll down here. Uh they did provide a padding exhibit to show that um fire trucks, sanitation trucks, etc. can flow through. So next is architectural design. Um pull up my notes. Unless there's a desire to do it, I won't go through everything um individually, but uh to just hit on a couple things. Division two um 10.85 intent really hones in on how a um a building should strive to take on a more residential and human scale. and it gives uh some standards as well as some guidelines as what that might look like. Um, one thing in here, it talks about a sidewall that is no higher than 12 feet from the floor to the top plate. So, it's important to note that these buildings are large buildings. All right, this was a um I believe this is building But both building B and C as well as A,

they're larger buildings. They appear to be twotory, but they're not. They're one story. Um, and as noted, it is a metal building and that was desirable for them for the space and height that they were looking for. Um so to try to achieve that human scale look um it's clear that the architect um did put in a lot of time and effort to try to show that 12 feet. They put that in uh with this I think what they're trying to get at is a porch structure at that 12 feet to give the appearance of twotory and to give that appearance of human scale. Um, same thing with the other building. And as we've noted in the um comments, uh, I guess a couple of things. This, the way this has been proposed, it does not, um, meet the requirements of what you would see with a porch. Um, a porch is going to have a pitched roof on it. Um when you look at the residential design standards, um a porch is talks about how it should be six feet in width at the minimum to accommodate that pedestrian feel. Um goes on to say, you know, 8 feet can be good and 10 feet is too much. Um but it looks like we have about four feet in this case. So um it's not meeting the um the intent of the church. I am not an architect and I apologize uh to Mr. Casten if I say things wrong or just doesn't come out appropriately in architectural terms. But um

to keep this height, to keep the area that they wanted, it they've proposed this gamrell roof and we don't see a lot of that in Nagad. Um but the ordinance doesn't disallow it. So um they're certainly allowed to have this gamal roof, but uh it looks like the way it's been proposed, it it lends itself to this sort of upper level projection um that makes the building look topheavy. So instead of instead of kind of drawing you down to that smaller human scale, it actually kind of makes the top look bigger. It exaggerates that that top half even more. Um so I don't what we put in our nose. The staff just feels like this doesn't meet the intent um of this building scale, human scale. Um note they have proposed columns and column trim. Um there's really not an opportunity for a gable bracket, but they do have various um decorative brackets through here. Um we talked about roof articulations um being needed on intervals for these longer linear buildings. Um and they have tried to meet that standard with the use of these um projections or bumpouts here. Um so I want to acknowledge that that they did absolutely try to do that. Um, however, when you look at dormers, whether it's a

shed dormer, um, hip, gable, this really isn't meeting the intent of those structures. Um, and spelled it out in your comments, but you know, one thing to keep in mind, I guess, is, um, it talks about roof articulations. And typically when you see a uh a dormer, it's set into the roof. In this scenario, these are actually just set into this sidewall. It's not part of the roof. And that's kind of a function of a gamrell. Um is you you've got your pitch up here, but then you have this sharp drop. So these projections are um unfortunately staff signs uh that they do not meet the intent of a dormer um or an acceptable roof articulation um in this context. Um I did note in your um staff report or in your notes rather um we would love to see a different design but um if the planning board is inclined to recommend approval of this um that we would at least look at doing some other window treatment here, some type of blackout so that we have the window, but we're not um looking in at the roof seam here. Um what else? Um 10.85.2.3 just talks about same as we've we've discussed really these larger buildings

with multiple tenants or uses shall be designed with complex massing. So they do not read as one large continuous structure. um buildings that exceed 5,000 square feet um and are intended to accommodate multiple uses, multiple tenants should be subject to this standard. Um again, uh staff feels like that intent of this section has not been met. Um it it still as designed it still reads as a um a large monolithic structure with some things sort of attached to it to try to meet the standard but unfortunately it's just not there. Um don't want to duplicate comments. Um, talk about building sizes along five lane um, roads and two-lane roads. And um, these structures are both compliant because it did go through that sketch plan process. Um, we do have a section in here that states that buildings need to meet a um length to width ratio, a 3:1 length to width. And these buildings all do um meet that standard as far as their windows go. um no less than 10, no greater than 40. They've shown that it does meet that standard. Um

absolutely want to note that there's a lot of criteria they do meet. Um but unfortunately um the the handful of primary things there in the beginning with just um human scale roof variations, roof articulations, things to um bring the mass of the building down a little bit. Staff feels that has not been met. Um, and because of that, while many things are compliant, most things are compliant, um, because of this piece, at this point, staff is uncomfortable recommending approval, um, until we, um, talk through this, and of course, staff would prefer a revised um, effort at at better meeting our commercial design standards. That's what I have for you today. And again, like I said, Mark and John uh Deluchia, Mark Cassin and John Deluchia are available should you have any questions for them.

Thank you, Kelly.

Do we have any comments? John, good morning. Just a couple of things about the site plan. I'm going to turn the architectural over to Mark. I'm John Deluchia from Alar Associates representing the applicant for this. Um, we did show a sign. There is a sign, a second sign showed on this plan and it's by that uh second driveway.

Are the dimensions on there? I don't think so. It was just shown that we would have a second sign. Um yet this was a tight site to put together um and and to achieve the client's goals and objective objectives. Um but I think we did it and I think um a couple of things that that uh Kelly talked about the health department, we're just waiting on them at this point to issue that. Um we had actually proposed the repair where the repair is which is right here. That was going to be the drain field, but the health department preferred it back here. We actually took this building since you saw it last and slid it a little bit more to the north so that we could tuck those septic tanks behind that building and still stay out of the 25 foot buffer. Um transition bike racks are already on site. Um the As I told you last year, that storage building that connector, that was always really planned to be more retail. Um, they will have to pave at a minimum pave the parking lot, this parking lot right here in order to comply with enough parking for that retail. And they're prepared to do that. Um, the whole reason to come in a couple of months ago was that they could get that other building started so they can get it dried in before season this year. There was some discussion last time about some interconnectivity between these two sites. We talked to the client about that and they're really going to function as two different type sites. Um the the retail in the back and the art gallery in the back really is in addition to the retail on the front.

Um if they find that they need to do that. We've looked at a couple of things. We've looked at a sidewalk that would go along in Satderfield Landing along the road here to connect the two. We've also looked at the potential of maybe building a a wooden structure out over the storm water basin and connect it back in here too. A wooden structure would not um add necessarily add coverage as far as the DEEQ division of environmental quality would be concerned. So that wouldn't affect all storm water. Although we have gracious more storm water capability on this site than than we would be required to. And Kelly was right. This this is under state storm water permit and we are applying for that modification too. And if you have any questions about the site, I can answer it before I turn this over to Mark.

Does anybody have any questions for John? Being none. Thank you. Good morning. My name is Mark Castston with Kahun and Casten Architects. Um, first of all, I'd like to to just give my appreciation for the effort that they've done. I mean, this is that's hard to do with the type of uh of of ordinance when you get into um you know where it's uh beyond the point system, it's difficult to try to make this work. and I'm working with the the client wants to have these larger simple metal building structures which I'm trying to incorporate into that and and we've made a best our best effort to do that. Um um and I would also like to say how kind she was with with the I know that they're not happy with it but how kind she was with this presentation. I've been through architectural uh crits in school that were much more vicious than that. So, um, so yeah, we're just we're trying to make a a it's a lot of applique on the building to try to make it work and have a have a a a residential scale and uh so I guess uh we're definitely willing to try to make it work within what the plan what they um uh we if if you choose not to accept this the way it is, then we would work with uh the planning staff to get something might be more acceptable. Um, and I don't Can I talk about this schedule thing a little bit?

That's what I was exactly going to do. So, you're welcome to.

Okay. As I understand it, if we get this somehow, I don't know how you do that, whether it's approval conditional or what, but anyway, to get to since we have a we have it's a needs a planning board a hearing for this one. So, next month they the plan the commissioners would approve the consent agenda and put it on the consent agenda and then it would follow up in March. Um, if if you choose not to accept this the way it is, then we would want to work with the planning staff to get it more acceptable and hopefully get an a favorable planning board if that's where we need to go uh to get it to where we can uh get a favorable uh recommendation from the commissioners. So, we can we can keep them on schedule.

Yeah.

Um they like Mark said because it's a special use there was that um time of where it goes to the board for consent agenda where we schedule the public hearing. We send the notices out and post the sign. Um so there's a little bit more time in there. We can keep them on that path so that they're still before the board. Um but if you choose to, we can work with the applicant, come back in February, um and present the architectural piece back to this board. Um And like Mark mentioned, hopefully come to consensus, get a recommendation of approval and still keep them on track.

And that's all if all again it's you would approve. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Uh so yeah, so we're just uh trying to work with the client and get his needs met and kind of work with the town in their language, which is, you know, a little bit uh it's hard to fit that. It's not all cut and dried. So, we're doing what we can and and I appreciate everyone's uh uh consideration of this and and the staff's work on this, too. So, thank you. Anything else? Do you have any questions before you go? Does anybody have any questions?

No, not really. Um, so do you think that the retail in unit one would want to have an open like huge roof like that? Like I could see like why you wanted on the storage side so you could stack up all your inventory and use that height. But in my mind, like a retail store, I mean, you I guess like the Sensations and such like that, they stack the clothing, they hang it up really high. Um, but to me, it doesn't seem like if it's a regular retail store, it would need that high of a bolted ceiling.

Um, I think it's it's giving the flexibility to do that to store things higher in different parts of the each structure. and also uh matter of economy. Um you know it's it's less expensive to build a metal building that's one shape rather than you know cutting it up into uh into a lot of different pieces. So you know trying to to meet the the owner's need to keep the cost down and to it's a it's a balancing act a little bit and you know just got to come to some kind of consensus about what's acceptable. All right.

And then storage space. So, if you already h have in unit one, you know, just as a typical I don't know what you would put there, but do most buildings have like a one:3 ratio of storage space to actual retail space? Um, I don't think are we one to three? We This was based on the ordinance reads that it has the the storage space has to be what's the langage? Yeah. So it just needs to be accessory, right? Which means it can't be more than 50%. Correct. Right.

So it can't be more than 50%. 49 it's technically acceptable. Um and I think when you're looking at the improvements on the east side, the TWWs, retail, the new retail, um existing storage and new storage, which I think is unit two. Um that's looked as a whole. um in terms of principal and accessory. So then um it would be unit one they're looking at that I forget I think it's like 2500 retailous. So again they're below that 50% right?

So my question is what percentage of other businesses are around that same percentage of storage space versus retail space? Do you know? I think it's all over the place. I mean, some have very limited storage for the amount of retail space they have and some have a lot more. It's just various. I mean, the the the the um TWWs, this building, uh and the owner had puts a lot of stock away, right?

Um so that they can have that available when things get when in the summertime they move all that stuff. And he's repeatedly told me about how makes a huge difference for their ability to to keep the store running, keep keep people staff there to uh manage all that that product and stuff like that. So, I think it just varies about how the business is used.

Yeah. No, I understand that. It to me would seem like on this site with everything being somewhat maxed out with this parking and the building sizes and then you know not saying that it is a loophole but it kind of is a loophole with the storage space not needing any parking. Um, like wouldn't it be better to have your your inventory stored somewhere else than like right there on site? It could be somewhere in like Grandandy or somewhere where land's cheaper and you could build whatever you wanted there and have unlimited amount of space and then truck it in type of thing. So my I was just curious as to what other businesses that are already set up because I'm kind of I'm haven't been on the planning board that long. So I just was wondering how that how many businesses use that much storage space

or ask for that. Yeah, I I'll be honest. I've been here for a while, but I have not kept a mental inventory of everybody's accessory to storage to retail. I mean, um I will note this applicant deals with large items, large yetis, big things like that. Um so to try to equate it with your standard retail might not be Apple, right? Um so I can't unfortunately I'm sorry. I Yeah. Yeah. No, I I'm just something to consider.

This is not a question, just a comment. Um, there's a lot going on.

I mean, it's it's it's a lot for the footprint. I feel like I know they're trying to get as much maximum space for storage as possible because I I've had a business um not in ASA but in Kittyhawk. And yes, your inventory is very important, but not every business can just store all their excessive inventory on site. And I think in this situation, TWWs is trying to do that. Probably because they have storage units in other areas to ship. They get all their inventory shipped and then they put it in a storage unit.

Yeah. I just I know a lot of businesses do that. I'm presuming maybe costly, but maybe TWWs has to do that. So rather than having to go to a storage unit and then get their inventory, you know, back to their business to restock, it would be more convenient to have it on site. But that kind of comes at a cost. And um, you know, I would like to see the plan meet the architectural review committee's recommendations to see what we can do to size it down a little bit. Um, because I do think it it appears topheavy. I I I do agree with a lot of the the comments that the review committee had. So, I would be in favor of having take another look at it and try to scale it back a little bit. That's that would be my comment.

And again, mine's just a comment. It it just looks like a lot of stuff on a little piece of land. Um and it's not really a little piece of land, but it's just like kind of overload. and the top heavy the buildings. I think especially if you could just get rid of some of the hop the topheaviness of the buildings um and scale that back, it might look a little bit less cumbersome. So that's I kind of I agree with Valerie and I do agree with a lot of the staff recommendations and comments. Thank you. Any other questions or comments? Thank you, Mark. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Okay, discussion.

Um, I got I've got a lot um on my in my head on this. So, going back through agendas, etc. Um, this we've had a we've had a lot of things take place with this property. There was the initial development. Then there was the addition onto the backside. Then there was a a um a a a change in code for a decrease in um ex to allow for more expansion of the of the storage space behind. um that was done if the deed was secondary property. There was a code um or sorry zoning zoning variance for that. Um at one of these gatherings, Mr. Deluchia was asked, you know, what was a long-term plan for this? And he said, you know, things were in in in flux. Well, we're still in flux. We still, this is still going on. And um one of the statements that was made when the uh the 10- foot change came in from 20 ft between the buildings was there was an intent in the UDO to not have strip developments. What we have in front of us is a strip-like development. nearly maxim nearly maximizing under any code the amount of development that can be on that property without a variance. Um we have a website if I ask AI how much of TWW's business is done on online and it says

they have an they're expanding into their online setting. That's their language on their website. So I have to kind of because we're not getting a clear line from what was to what we have now. There's not a there's the narrative generally has to be established that we're looking at more and more isn't going to isn't going to stop until it's completed. this architectural piece that we're looking at that is non-compliant with standards that are existing, but we could we could make a move however we want to on that and that would be then again passed on or not passed on by the board is a furtherance of that out of compliance more than what is normally acceptable outside of human scale sight lines etc etc. So this is a continuation of that. The intent by action seems to be clear. More isn't enough. It's what's expected. And that's that concerns me and I think is a trend line toward something that wasn't intended when the UDO was originally adopted and that's the reason it had to be extended and changed. um wasn't intended when the original uh zoning plan was adopted. That's the reason it had to be changed and opted and and changed through ownership and changed through uh amendment. So I just have got to say this is a lot as I think we as as has been said and I think now is a good time to kind of pull back hard and say, you know, what

is a better version of this with the through thread of all of those things and the more this is as far back as I could go on the town's website on TWWs and there it was. We've been looking at it for I think this is the fourth different planning board meeting consecutively that we've dealt with it and there were several more before that going back to the change of ownership of TWWs to Mr. Greening. Um so I I I that's this is where I sit. Um there's a lot and it doesn't seem like it's we're done yet. I just wonder if the having the storage aotments is a loophole for parking, you know. Um I don't I don't Maybe you could answer that question, Kelly. Is that

And also the art gallery is is that is that also a loophole for parking because do you need less parking for an art gallery versus regular retail? I think you mentioned that but I can't remember. Yeah, there is less parking required. Um, you're you're welcome to speak but I would like to as well. Um, so yes, for retail it's one for 250, for art gallery is one for 300. So it there is less parking required

going from retail to art gallery. Um I do not know the vision or the plans. I imagine they've already got an art gallery interested.

Otherwise that's kind of a interesting thing to say that you're going to put there if you don't already have something in mind. Um but the comment about storage um parking etc. staff shares that concern. Um as part of this application we realize and this was expressed to everyone full transparency that all we say is accessory and subordinate and all that means is a little less than the principle. And so, you know, we now is not the appropriate time. Yeah.

But in the future, should there be a percentage that goes with accessory and subordinate? Because 50% and 49% still looks like a lot. Um, and so should accessory storage be more of a percentagebased? Um and we did have concerns and the and the applicant and everyone here did work with us um with these numbers. Um but right now the ordinance just says accessory subordinates.

Yeah. Um the other piece to that also full transparency is when I wrote a lot of this staff report I did hammer in accessory and the applicant is very much aware of that it does have to be accessory because my concern is as a staff person not parking this is that if we've parked TWWs for their staff and we've parked whoever this retail person is in their staff and we've parked the art gallery in their staff but then we're using this storage for something other than the use of the principal if we're not having the person already working at TWWs accessing the storage. If we're not already having the person working the art gallery accessing that storage, if the storage becomes its own standalone thing, if this storage becomes an online sales,

I still think that's outside the boundary of where we're at with accessory storage to the principal. So yes, from staff's perspective, this pushes the envelope, but it is compliant with our code in all fairness to the applicant and everyone working on this. So, and in my 20 years, I've been made aware that I shouldn't try to regulate something that hasn't happened yet. So, while I can be concerned that this isn't going to be accessory storage, um I'm really not in a position where I can assume that I'm going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt. But yes, all of that all of that comes down to not parking this large amount of storage. Um it is it is somewhat concerning

and will we if we can ever with legislative things in process and SP 382 if we can ever get to a point where we can relook at what incidental means what subordinate means we will. But unfortunately we can't right now. I guess the parking Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead.

Um I'm not sure if that actually is the the hourglass. Like I don't know if that is like the actual bottleneck of what concerns me about this. Um because there is all the parking from the the other uh what is that thing where the Poké Box is and the thrift store. It's kind of I mean that that parking lot never seems full to me. It it may not, but that separate. Yeah,

it it is. And I will say as part of this, the applicant did ask to explore shared parking with Satderfield Landing, meaning TJ Maxx Staples, shared parking with the bowling alley, and shared parking with um Plaza del Soul, which is what you're talking about. And all of those places are um if not at their max, they do have their required parking. There's not excess. Um sorry.

Okay. Well, then you we can we can go that route. Um but I think there's we can look at the ordinance and look at the the code requirements. Um when I did that process I did not see available excess parking to the extent that we could coordinate some type of shared parking agreement or something like that. Right.

Yeah. So if it's not the parking then um to me it would be how do you in the future you know the next owner comes in or whatever how do you keep people from basically exploiting the storage space and making it into something else. You know how is that going to be monitored? Um, I mean we at this point we typically don't do um drop in inspections or anything. It's kind of the the proverbial camel's nose in the tent.

It could happen. Um I mean the other aspect of this is so thinking about um this site prior to this development when we just had TWW's principal and TWW's detached storage. So that detached storage building did not have a parking standard associated with it. And I think from staff's perspective, having a smaller detached storage building, which is not uncommon, we see that often, did not raise a lot of concern. We're combining them.

And admittedly, the retail parking standard says gross floor area. And that was put in place because things can shift, things can move around. What one tenant needs for retail and storage, that line may change from tenant to tenant. Um, but it really wasn't fair in this scenario to say that when the storage and principles detached, there's no additional parking standard, but because you're attaching them now that there is.

And I would say that we looked at Food Lion Shopping Center the same way. Food Lion is a huge building, but we know they have a large amount of storage in the back. We didn't park that storage for Food Lion, right? um saying we wouldn't hear. So it's all nuanced. Um but at this point, like I've said, there's really I understand your concern. I I have it as well. Thank you.

I'm good. Okay. So we were asked to decision. I think I think John wanted to talk. God, sorry. You're right, Dave. It's a lot of development on this piece of property. Um, it's a lot less development than the client wanted initially. Um, when he came to to us to say, "What could we do?" He wanted to put some apartments for some staff housing on there. He wanted

um these buildings to be bigger than they are. They couldn't be. Um, the value of land here on the Outer Banks, as you all know, is you've got to to you've got to utilize it to the best ability that you can for the price that you're paying for it. Um, as Kelly said, this meets the ordinance. This meets the intent of the ordinance. This meets how we've been interpreting the ordinance as far as parking um for accessory uses. Um remember too that when we built that first storage building, the reason that first storage building was built was because TWWs and Terry Stewart still owned it then um had six trailers back there and the town had something against trailers. So I mean he went in there and built that storage building because the town request didn't request it but inferred that it would be a better solution than having all of these trailers parked out back which didn't meet the ordinance. Um so while you know while we can debate is this too much is it not enough um this meets the ordinance of the town. So that's why we brought it to you in this form.

Thank you. So, we're at the point now where we need to discuss what we do with this project going forward. What is your thoughts? Um it's it's I think we're it seems there's some concordance and that the the according to putting taking from John just in his recent comments more is what the owner wanted and whether indeed you know what exactly that was um and what would be included in more It's not completely clear because there have been so many variations of this in this continuation expressed most recently in this. I think what we have to do is we have to take all of those iterations and the final expression we see in front of us and see where the intention of the applicant is in this situation. I think it's reasonably clear. Um my interest is not this um it is a a a a a variation of development that is more narrowly aligned with the UDO, more narrowly aligned with the neighborhood. E even looking back further more narrowly aligned with what this was and what it's going to be now as this moves forward. This is going to something like this is going to visit us again. And something

that we comp that is done in real estate at large is comparables. Is there anything compared to this? Um, in the original application to change the distance between the building, the applicant said that the need of the building was the need for this was um they needed more material on site because of hasten sales. that I find that admission interesting. All of us on our way home will likely pass a vehicle shipping something that came from sales. UPS, all the rest, you know, FedEx are in that racket. So having stock in on site and having stock ready to to move. It's interesting. Um it doesn't seem minute-to- minute isn't it? It's what moves over the counter at a retail establishment, which is what this is. And all of it is the question is retail. What does that mean moving forward? It does seem to include a a a not indiscriminate amount or understandable amount of online sales is that retail um etc etc etc creep going on here and the fact that this is really the first camel to put its nose in this retail tent it it it it makes me scratch my head and

hope that we can maybe look at this with a long and I toward bending toward what we hope things will look like. Um, and to use a phrase, I'm going to go back to Gary. Town that says no sometimes looks better. And maybe this is a no now. And a different version later. Yes.

Uh, I personally would like to see a different design architecturally. I agree with Kelly that the or the town and the and the um UDO the things that weren't compliant should be compliant at least. I agree with both Dave and Brad. Honestly, I vote I agree with the trifecta over here. Okay.

So, I think we have a consensus here that architecturally we need more human scale. We need it to blend in better into the C2 where you have some residential and you have some things nearby. Uh there's lots of good about this. We totally understand what the applicant is is trying to do and accomplish and I think that there could probably be some good compromise architecturally to make it make it blend into the community a little bit better. So I think that at this point in time we would like to defer taking any action on this other than moving it forward.

Sure. Yeah, we can defer table noting that we'll bring it back to you in February with some revised architectural drawings.

Yes. do need to get. So, is there a consensus on every on the site? From what I'm hearing, there might not be a consensus on the site design. Is the architectural renderings the only aspect of this that there's concern with?

That's the primary. It's it's the primary, but the other side of it is the act the architectural piece is so knitted into the site plan that I'm not sure I'm not sure that it it's going to be I I'm interested to see how that looks together as much as anything else. um you know and and while it does tick all the boxes for site plan down the line, it's right on the edge on all those boxes and that's what g that's what gives me some pause

and and um makes it so such that I'm I'm a little bit less likely to that's my position. So I don't know that that will change between now and next time but I think is there a way forward do you what else do you need from us to move this forward or are we in table I think to move forward it would be a for today a recommendation of denial noting that the architectural design is the primary issue and an acceptance of bringing that back in February. Um and keeping this on track with public hearing. Yes.

Do we That's that seem that seems quite reasonable. Does seem right less topheavy, a little bit more human scale. Okay. So, we need a motion. Is that a fact? God, I don't How do you put those words together? um make a motion to carry on toward public hearing but a denial at this right at this phase due to architectural design exactly what you said I'll second so we have second all in favor say I

opposed okay thank you thank you all so much for kind of sticking with me for that because I was trying to there's a lot Sorry about that. All right. Thank you.

Moving on. Action item two, consideration of the text amendment submitted by Alamar Associates on behalf of Dare County to amend the lighting levels allowed for publicly owned and publicly accessible pickle ball courts. Kelly All right. So, for this one, um maybe that's the best thing to leave it on for the time being. Um, so as you stated, uh, this is a text amendment request also by Alammoral and Associates on behalf of, uh, Dear County to amend the lighting levels allowed for publicly owned and publicly accessible pickle ball courts. Um you're you're seeing this request um kind of in conjunction in tandem with uh what the planning board and I know we have some new members but the board of commissioners um approved a while back. When was that? January 8th, 2025. So about a year ago. Um to allow 10 pickle ball courts to be developed on the old Pamlico Jack site. Um, and this is just an excerpt of that site plan that was approved at that time. Um, but for context that that gives you an idea of where this originated. and their request would be um to increase the foot candle the illumination standard for um

pickle ball courts from 15 foot candles to 30 foot candles. So, what I want to show you, I think for the time being, is what the ordinance currently reads as. Okay. So, here we have tennis and handball 15 foot candles. Um, prior to this, had anyone talked about pickle ball, I would have just looped it into that standard because they are so close. But with this request, it made sense to break this out um and create its own um standard here. So, um, don't want to bounce back and forth. Um, but so, as I said, right now we are at 15. Um, this property, it is in the C2, but it's also in our commercial outdoor recreation overlay, and it's where you see a lot of our recreational elements. Um, the town I will say has intentionally had conservative lighting standards. Um, I think in looking around to other places, um, ours tends to be lower than a lot of the others. Um, and some of you may remember not too long ago we had our planner Chris Trimbley here talking about um our Dark Skies Bright Stars initiative and really trying to take that leap into dark sky

international and being more compliant with our Dark Skies. So, what I will say that I've learned during this process and and I'll be honest, when Mr. Deluchia submitted this to me. I was like, gosh, 15 to 30, that's that's hard to swallow. That's a lot. And then to think 30 to 50 when it's tournament play and that was uh recommendation of the IEES, I illumination engineer society. So, I started looking into it and I will say that Dark Sky, um, they've put a lot of materials out in terms of their recreational courts, um, such as pickle ball courts, things like that. And even the communities that are dark sky certified, um, it's really not about the foot handle, it's about the fixture, the orientation, and the shielding. So, um, I learned a lot through this process. So, my gut of originally bumping from 15 to 30 being so dramatic, um, what I came to find out was yes, that that is a good bump, but primarily what all of these dark sky indicators lean towards is less about what that measurement is on the court when you're playing and more about um the light trespass, the sky glow um and and how it's moving across the site. Less about the actual more about how you're managing it. So, um what this proposal involves is creating the standard for um we did do two. We did pickle ball private club neighborhood or HOA and left that at 15 um because there are some private um pickle ball courts out there. If there's not, there certainly could be in the

future. Um, where we just haven't done the deep dive and we're not ready to um propose that that be increased as well. Also, if you're looking at an HOA or some type of neighborhood amenity, you obviously have residential close by. Um but to for this specific request uh pickle ball publiclyowned, publicly accessible recreation courts um we have proposed um to increase that 230 subject to some supplemental regulations that have been proposed in section 10.37.5.9 and um working with Mr. Deluchia. I won't say that he loves all these requirements, but we're pretty much generally on board. Um, the first uh being pickle ball courts shall comply with all applicable provisions of section 10.37.5, including but not limited to light trespass limitations, curfews, fixture shielding, full height requirements. I'm already going to mess this up because I need to actually go back and show you something. that's in this ordinance that we may want to look at changing. So, in this section, we say light fixtures for recreational use shall be turned off no later than 11:30 p.m. That would be left as is. Um, light fixtures for publicly or municipally owned or publicly accessible recreation courts and multi-purpose recreation fields shall be turned off no later than 900 p.m. The only ch the only change made here was what's in red and underlined was to try to capture this new pickle ball language.

this 9pm um has been in there and I believe that was very much geared towards what it's talking about the multi-purpose recreation field which is the large soccer fields at Satderfield Landing with the tall poles. Um and I think that needs to stay. I think for the Satderfield Landing Park, the 9pm is where we need to keep it. But talking with John, talking with Dustin Peele with the county, um, in the summer, it's not even really dark by 9. And I think there would be a comfort level both from staff perspective, from my perspective, um, as well as the applicant to increase that from 9:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. specifically for these, um, uh, publicly owned, publicly accessible pickle ball courts. And I can try to finagle that language on the fly. Um, but we would keep it nine for the multi-purpose fields at Satderfield. Bump it to 10 to 10 for this only if you're immenable to that. So, just keep that um keep that in your mind as you think through this. Um, as far as the enhanced lighting option goes, uh, pickle ball courts located at publiclyowned, publicly accessible recreation facilities may increase illumination from 15 to a maximum of 30 average maintained foot candles provided. The following conditions are met. And um a lot of these came from working in tandem with the applicant and looking at what other dark sky certified um locations are doing. So all fixtures

shall be full cutoff fixtures with additional shielding and glare control measures as necessary to prevent light trespass onto adjacent properties and public trustwaters. So this text amendment was brought in specifically for the sound side, but We need to be aware that it could apply anywhere. It's not just for the soundside. So, we're talking about any property line, but as well as public trustwaters. No light trespass shall occur at the estrine shoreline or public trustwaters as demonstrated through phototric plans submitted at permitting and verified through post installation light audits as needed. So obviously in this case what we're really concerned about um is at soundside and there's a very long distance between these pickle ball courts and the sound but of course we don't want any light trespass onto sound waters.

Lighting fixtures shall be limited to a maximum pole height of 25 ft. fixtures aimed so that their beams are directed and fall within the primary playing areas and away from sensit sensitive areas including but not limited to public trustwaters. Um there was I think a link that I gave you to a uh dark sky certified court in Champagne, Illinois

and they actually provided us their ordinance that went along with that and that was a line taken specifically um from theirs and John had mentioned it as well making sure that those fixtures are directed um solely at the court. Um, dimmable or multilevel lighting system shall be provided shall be provided allowing ports to operate at the lowest effective illumination level during normal recreational use. And that comes into play when we look at our next section. Um, and then the last thing, all pickle ball lighting shall operate on an ondemand basis only utilizing a system such as push button timers or motion activation. Lighting shall not be automatically active at dusk, and it shall extinguish when active use or motion ceases. Under no circumstance shall lighting operate beyond the applicable curfew, which we're thinking of bumping from 9 to 10, established in section 10.37.5, regardless of motion detection, manual activation, or other user input. All lighting systems shall be programmed to automatically shut off at curfew with no override capability. Um, I'm going to keep going, but when we hand it over, I want to say that John and Dustin, you already have some facilities that use this um, push button, so they're very familiar with that already and can tell you more about how that works. Um, the next piece, uh, for competitive or tournament play at a public recreation pickle ball court. uh pickle ball courts located at these publiclyowned publicly accessible recreation facilities where competitive or tournament pickle ball

play is anticipated. Lighting levels may be temporarily increased above 30 foot candles not to exceed 50 average maintained foot candles subject to the following. Any increase above 30 foot candles shall occur only in conjunction with an approved crowd gathering event. Um, elevated lighting levels shall be timelmited to the duration of the approved event and shall not be permitted for routine or unscheduled play. All light trespass, glare, shielding, pole height, and curfew requirements that we've previously discussed shall continue to apply and lighting system shall return to standard recreational levels immediately following the conclusion of the approved event. So, um, wanted to touch on that a little bit. Uh, mentioned it in the staff report. Hopefully you read it. But the IEES standard of 30 to 50 is really based upon like peak professional play. And that's not going to be what we have out there probably 90 plus% of the time.

I think the people playing there might defer. They might want want some separate judgment on that. Everybody's a pro. Don't tell them I said that. Okay.

Um, no, you're right. So um but understanding um that this is being requested at the sound site event site, it is going to be um 10 pickle ball courts professionally designed to the nth degree and that there might be a likelihood of competitive play or tournaments there. Certainly want to acknowledge um that if they need that additional lighting they can have it under certain parameters. I've got a question. What is just to get a level what at Satderfield landing while the lights are on? What what is the foot candles there?

I can tell you what they should not exceed. I don't know. We've gone out there multiple times. Code enforcement has. I don't have those numbers banked. Okay. And and as a as a matter of understanding, presently there are two switches on the wall. You can flip them on whenever you want. And and that happens. S9. Yes. And that's something that, you know, it's that's something that's in here that would be great if there's a modification to a site with an existing light standard or a situation where they could be flipped on. It'd be great if the timer just rolled them off because that happens that happens not not that infrequently to the kids that know, they know. And if you know

if you know, you know, you know. Yeah. you you know and as and as it is now the lights go on when the gates are locked and the kids everybody jumps the fence and plays ball so that does happen um okay and and you know I'm I'm not saying but I do like that it just rolls off no matter how hard you press after hours don't you have in there um no curve no override capability that's super yeah I think that's really important in this case and and I I what I'm saying is that would be really neat to put in the general. So yeah, so that would be kind of a larger a broader amendment than this to encompass because Yeah. So this is specific to the the pickle ball.

Next time we rewrite the whole thing. Yes. Agreed. Because that has come to my attention during this process is this is a very old ordinance and it probably does need to be looked at. Yeah. and you know and and just general light glare wasn't understood when the lights were put on at Satderfield Landing and now the lights that are replacing the lights that are existing the bulbs it's everything is a little upside down. I have two questions. First of all, Satderfield landing 9:00 is the curfew time. That's what it's what the ordinance says and we're not proposing to change that. Why? Why? play. Um, it's might not make that 10 o'clock. Just wondering.

Yeah. So, I don't believe there's an interest to change that in that it is surrounded by R2 residential developed. And the other thing with that that's going to be different from this, those poles are extremely high. So, the higher the pole, the more angle of light you have. with these smaller 25 foot poles, there's a better direction, right?

Um, but it's a larger area as well. You know, you're trying to light those entire fields. So, you've got the tall poles. So, um, I think any extension be I I think I think the key would be to not encourage lit play beyond nine um for that area for that area. Okay. due to the pole height, due to the other standards residential around that than at the the sound.

Correct. And as was noted um by the applicant and in our ordinance, if you look up here, municipallyowned recreation facilities, that just says the minimum IEES recommendation. So it looks like when this was done kind of gave ourselves a pass for Satderfield. Okay. So I can't promise you that those are anything other than the minimum IEES.

The other question I had Thank you. The other question I had was who determines how the lighting will be reduced following the tournament from 50 to 30.

Yep. So that is going to be part of the um requirement that they have an approved crowd gathering permit. And that's a process that we recently went through. Um tried to planning board updated, but the board of commissioners approved it where we're, you know, um looking at uh some tighter parameters for our crowd gathering permits, acknowledging that some of them um tend to get a little bit out of control uh as far as police being needed, especially at Southside event site when you're having people cross 158, things like that. So, we've we've been trying to accommodate that, but this new crowd gathering process takes that into consideration a little better. Um, and it gives us a more thorough application process and more time for staff review and involvement for these um applications. So, the sound event uh coordinators are very familiar with the application process. So they would if there was something scheduled they would um they have their own um review process but in addition to their own review process they also meet hours and we meet with them kind of like a TRC but for crowd gathering um anytime they have a um an event over there. The one thing that I do want to note as we talk about this is where we're talking about pickle ball. It also says that must um meet the curfew. And if we have a crowd gathering permit in place, I'm not sure that that's necessary because that crowd gathering permit is going to override um

that. So, but to answer your question, as part of the crowd gathering permit, there will be staff involved. Okay. Um whether it's that night or the next day, um we will have Chris Trembley with their photometrics. I'm seeing you in in sweats taking part out there around midnight. That would be involvement light. Yeah, might happen. Um

Okay. But with the crowd gathering permit, there is a um a path to ensuring um that it's only enhanced for the tournament only. And we'll have staff ensure that it's reduced um as soon as the tournament's over. So it could go past 10:00. Yes. Okay. But we will ensure that the next night those are back to 30.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Thank you. Sure. I have a question. I'm just curious because I don't play pickle ball. I'm probably one of the few people on the Outer Banks that doesn't, but why but and I love it. I It's, you know, a great recreational sport, but I'm just curious, why does it have to be a higher illumination? Why do we have to go from 30 to 50 during tournament play? So from what I understand there, it's for um basically for peak play, for visibility of the ball and the court. Um John might be able to answer that better than me, but um and I'll be honest, I really didn't want to say this out loud, but

waiting for it. This is where I I think I know where you're going and I can't wait. My guess is um dang it. My guess is if you went to IEES and looked at what's the um what's the IEES required lighting for bumper boats, go-kart tracks, miniature golf, outdoor climbing walls. It's all going to be more than what we have. And I I've said it to other people. I I don't want to open that. I realize we're doing this for pitle ball, but I'm not I don't think it would be a good idea to hang your hat on approving this amendment because IEES said so. Because then we're going to be requested to change all of their lighting because IEES said so. So I'm I would not want to put so much faith in what IE re says um because we are allowed to take in other factors. Our zoning ordinance can be more stringent than IEES. We're not required to meet that minimum. We're taking in land use. We're taking in citizen um input and guidance. We're taking into account comprehensive plan. We're taking into account the environmental nature of it. Um we've also got some sound mitigation pieces in here. So um I think when you look at IEES, they speak to wanting that enhanced number just for better visibility, better movement, better um articulation of of the courts, the the ball, things of that nature.

Because during non-competitive play, just recreational play, they would have less illumination. I I'm not aware. Okay. As I'm Yes. is what I believe. consideration. Right. I was just I I just find it curious why it needs to be increased during one kind of play and not for another kind of play.

Excuse me, sir. Would you like to come up to the podium, please? Tell us who you are. when when you look at the standards that the pickle ball organizations um have put out and there's a lot of those now because pickle ball has become just huge in the country.

Um they recommend for recreational and the the court layout you can lay them out for private use. You can lay them out for recreational which means they're a little closer together. You can set them up for tournament play. These were set up for tournament play so that they're a little bit wider. There's a little bit more room around them. But what the pickle balls, not IE talking about the illumination engineering, but the pickle balls folks want for recreational play the court lighting to be between 30 and 50. And for um tournament play, they recommend that the lighting level be between 50 and 70. So what we've done is we've pulled down to the lowest recommended level in this request. Thank you.

Thank you. Yes, please. My name is Dustin Peele. I'm the assistant county manager for Dair County. I'm also the project manager. Okay. And just to to piggyback on on John's information there as the question is why does the lighting standard have to be that he kind of hit the nail on the head in that that's the standard for the competitive pickle ball play? Um it'd be similar to an Olympic qualifying swim event. you would have that at a sanctioned pool at a specific length, spec specific width. It wouldn't be something like a a hotel pool in that example. It's more recreational use. There are some very specific standards that are required for it to meet competitive pickle football play. And that that's why that 50

and and the intent as I imagine it is so that this will become moderately attractive to maybe draw an event like that. Correct. And it would be as built instead of patches have to be. That's right. And the reasoning why um the event site was selected as the appropriate site is that there the tourism bureau has has also approached us and approved that site in the thought that we would create some sort of economic benefit with pickle ball play and tournaments and things like that. And so for us to meet that minimum requirement as John had stated, you know, we've pulled back to the very minimum recommended standards while still meeting the competitive play requirement. Yes, sir. Thank you. Thank you.

Just just to counter on that, the county does today use timers and push button turn on at night. If you go to WC Park, that's how the tennis courts and pickle ball courts are set up there. Um, they don't use motion sensors because every time a deer walk past, you'd have the lights coming on and going off. So, they do use a push button type. Um and they do have a a a drop dead cuto off curfew hour on those. Okay. What what is the lumens there? Um or what is the the foot quick handles there? I don't know. Okay. I was just wondering comparably. I mean they're taller poles on that side too. So

and and that that is one of the reasons that I'm a little bit that this is more favorable because everything is going to be focused because it'll be lower as compared with the higher standard at Satderfield Landing or at the other county parks. And and on top of that, I've talked with the lighting engineers who are working with us on this, and it is possible to put a dimmer switch on all the lights, not individually, but so so what'll happen was we'll go out there and we'll set to the highest standard and make sure that we know where that 50 is. Make a mark make standard and that'll be locked. They'll keep that lock so people can't do that too. Um

the example that you provided in the packet of the uh existing pickupball court in was it Illinois or Yeah, that was very helpful because my radar I went up when I was like oh my gosh lighting you know at nighttime lighting I'm a very strong advocate of the dark skies initiative but when I saw the illumination of that court and how the low the the it was such a low light setting And the dispersement of the radiant light around the port was minimal and especially I thought, oh my gosh, we're right next to the sound, you know, the disruption of that.

That was very helpful to see that and I thank you for providing that. Well, the new fixtures too. I mean, in the past we were using H hallogen and and mercury. Now they're using LEDs. Yes. Yes. And the LEDs are much more um um much easier to set up with shielding so that you don't have the light spillings beyond.

I mean, Kelly hit the nail on the head. The dark sky is not about the intensity of the foot candles. It's about how you manage where the lights going. Um on this particular site, we are 300 ft from the sound. So, we're a football field away. If we can't control the lights in that 300 feet, we're not doing our job right now.

Um, there's one other thing that I'd like to say that I have put in our our request for this and it hasn't made it to this. And you may notice that Manny Galassa has been sitting in very patiently wanting to listen to this because he wants to convert that tennis court that we approved for the to some pickle ball courts and I had suggested that we allow some of the commercial users to. I'm not here representing them tonight, this morning. I'm here representing the county. Um, we're 100% with this ordinance, but if you could consider a commercial use to also be allowed to at least go up to the 30 foot camp standards, that would be acceptable. That would be wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.

Any questions? Anybody have any questions for us?

One more quick thought before we adjourn. Uh Dave, just answering your question, your concern about what the lighting at Satderfield is. Um, I wasn't involved in lighting that, but I did put the field lights up at Behind First Middle School recently. Um, we got those from Musco, who I I assume you guys probably did Saturnfield as well. Um, the collegiate level uh, light plan there is between 100 and 150 foot candles with 80 to 120 foot poles. So, you're talking two to three times the light intensity. Plus, as Kelly mentioned, the height of the pole with that that angle of light, um, it it's significantly brighter and more intense. those fields and what we would put or even consider putting out recreation. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay. Um all wonderful conversation. Um but we did have something in here for noise mitigation as well because um those of you who have been around a pickle ball court hard pickle ball whatever um mallet And then the ball. Yes, it's got a sharp a quick sharp sound and

um especially with competitive play um that could get um pretty loud. Also um being granted they're not all going to be near water, but being that this one will be near water um and noise tends to travel um we just wanted to make sure that we did have something in there for noise mitigation. Um, so pickle ball courts, particularly those located at publicly owned uh publicly accessible recreation facilities, may generate repetitive impulsive noise associated with paddle and ball contact that is acoustically different from other outdoor recreation uses. If following installation and operation of pickle ball courts, substantiated noise complaints are received. Notice substantiated. um or uh noise monitoring audits or field measurements demonstrate that pickle ball play is resulting in noise impacts beyond the site. The town may require the installation of sound attenuating or noise mitigation measures as necessary and these could include acoustic fence wraps, sound dampening panels, perimeter barriers, or other comparable mitigation techniques to ensure continued compatibility with the surrounding property and environmentally sensitive areas. This last part just says that the applicant or operator would be responsible for the design, installation, and maintenance um of that type of noise mitigation. And in your staff report, I noted um that these types of uh fence barriers or noise attenuating things um if you've seen them online would also go a great deal in um ensuring light trespass because it's going to help cut that light off beyond the fence.

Um that that's the extent of this. I guess just to wrap it up, it sounds like from what I've presented um things are generally favorable. But just to break it out um because I will need to revise this before it goes to BOC to reflect things properly. Um keeping Satderfield ports at a curfew of nine and offline ensuring that that's being held.

Um but then consideration of allowing pickle ball courts uh these pickle ball courts to have a curfew of 10. So as you're talking about it, keep that part in mind that that's one deviation that you don't see in here that we're considering. Um, and I have not accounted for it, but I will leave it up to the planning board to discuss um, how they feel a commercial entity such as the Outer Bank Sports Club, if they should be privy to the same standards of um, increasing the pickle ball lighting from um, 15 to 30 and whether or not you wanted to extend the 30 to 50. I don't know if you would envision tournament play, competitive play at the sports club, but we can't like look into a crystal ball and see where this is going to come up in the future either. So, um, but that's one other piece. And then recognizing down here uh that where there's a crowd gathering permit um that that nine o'clock or 10 o'clock whatever you decide on um would defer to what's approved under the crowd gathering.

I have I have a question. Yes. The town may require the installation of sound attenuating or noise mitigating measures. That's a requirement. Is the other party accepting that and and willing to comply if if requested? So, um it would be incorporated into this ordinance and essentially what would happen is should we find there be an issue, we would have to issue a notice of violation

and that would be $50 to $500 a day every time the violation persisted. So I imagine if you were to put in your NOV um that within X number of days it needed to be mitigated noting that we permitted your lighting for this pickle ball court under this ordinance by virtue of being permitted under this ordinance. There was an acknowledgement that should you be found in violation, um noise attenuating would be on on you as the property owner operator to deal with to comply. Yeah. So you're asking then

So did you put in a a time period? Yes. So when you get a Yeah. When you get a violation, there's certain days like if it's a if it's an easy violation to remedy, it's immediate. For something like this to get noise attenuating um materials in, it might be um uh you're going to receive a violation x amount daily as long as the violation continues and it needs to be remedied within 15 days, 20 days, 30 days, whatever is deemed reasonable. Would this also on the on the private setting would it also have a would it be under the same standard as time nine o'clock or 10 o'clock?

So for private no this ordinance does not contemplate private where we propose to keep private at the 15 and create this subsection of enhanced standards just for publicly owned So, as the plan is now, there is no barrier around the pickle ball courts. Is that correct? There's no fence or anything. Oh, there is. Oh, okay. But no noise barrier. Not a noise barrier, but there's a fence. And we're also planning on winding guard on there. So, gives you some And the wind guard would

That's pretty adjacent to a sound barrier, isn't it? That hangs on the fence. Yeah. Yeah. We're looking at 10 foot fences. Block the noise. Yeah. My first thought was you're right there on the sound. You're going to need something for the for the wind barrier. So, that will help with that will help with the noise as well. Yeah.

So, so it this this is kind of neat. It's it's um while I see some some subtleties between the public and the private, there's subtleties and and and I think they're pretty clear and understandable and I think that that can be scraped into some language that is seemingly quite agreeable. Um, now as I also see it, if someone a private entity had a crowd gathering permit, they could come to some agreeance with the the crowd gathering people with those hats on. And that's also something. So, it's it's it's an analog instead of an onoff. And I like that. I I like that the the fact that it does kind of it has some capability shift and move with resistance where it's required and none where it is not. I think this is good.

What about the time frame for mitigating the sound? I I I feel like the existing policy probably if and and here's my here's my my question to Kelly on this. If we came up with a different policy for mitigation of a violation, would that be would that be clunky?

Yeah, honestly it would because our the way we issue violations, investigate them, it's all it's an entire section in the town code. So to deviate from that and this isn't proposing any timeline. This is just saying um you know and I thinking about this I didn't want to assume I didn't want to require it because I didn't want to assume that you're going to violate it.

Um you know there's other pickle ball courts out there right now. I've not gotten any complaints. I'm not aware that we've had any complaints from them. Um, so you know, I don't want to create a problem where there's not one, but I did want to acknowledge that if it does become a problem, there would be a a path to get it resolved. Um, and I I will say for violations, depending on what they are, we always work with the person. We don't need to stipulate a time period.

Correct. Okay. So, I mean, honestly, if it's not going to happen, but if the event site were found to be in comp or in non-compliance, we called them up and said, "Hey, you know, multiple times we've found that you're over your noise levels." They said, "Great. It's going to take us like 30 days." Then that's what we're going to give. You know, we're going to work with them. We're going to work with somebody to get that in. That makes sense. Thank you. as long as we know we're all working towards compliance. Thank you, Kelly. Discussion.

I think that it sounds like a great idea. I mean, I don't think there's a I'm glad to see that it's not just going to be kind of thrown together. It's actually going to have a lot of variables, like David said, where you can have tournaments to totally take advantage of putting in pickle ball courts. you know, and 10:00 seems like a I mean, to beat the heat, you don't want to be out there in the middle of the day. So, I think that there has to be lights out there in order to be able to play in the evening

and potentially into the night. Um, I like it. I think

I agree with Brad and I also think this is a perfect use of the event site. I think this is why we have I think this was part of the goal of having an event site such as we have for recreation, not just for large events like a car show or this or that. Um this is a healthy sport and I think everything in alignment with you know the curfew hour and the all the recommendations for the lighting I think are very reasonable. Oh, I think it's I was a little bit concerned about the dark sky, but you have answered all of my concerns. And who knows, Valerie and I may be out on court. You never know.

There you go. And I and I especially like this because it focuses on local use and that that we that live here have some great courts that we can use when there's none available to a number of us that would like to avail ourselves to a pickle ball court. So, I think it's a great idea. I would love somebody to Can I Can I ask one more thing? Uh, we have a somebody in the room. Is there anything that we're saying that is objectionable? You brought up a really good point about the lighting.

If you want to get up there, that'd be great. I I if we're going to go this far and we're going to kind of winking winking at private, why not just get one comment and see that way we can accommodate something quite easily with a period of com.

Uh the reason why I think we need lighting is because you can't really play during the day. It's they will be playing because it they're pickle ball crazies, but uh but at night time is when it really really gets busy. I think 10 o'clock is a fair cut off time. It's not too late. It's not too early. And my gym closes at 10 o'clock. I've had the same gym hours since 2008, which is 5:30 a.m. until 10 p.m. I'm not I'm not going to change it. And it does shut off automatically, all my parking lot uh on the exterior, and no one has access to it, so that shouldn't be an issue. commercial.

Yes. Yeah. I'm I'm sorry. I'm not hearing this, John. Well, the definition right now is a private club or neighborhood HOA. It would be the lower standard. And we're saying that for publicly owned uh publicly accessible recreational courts and I would just add the word or commercial because he's the only real commercial. Um and and he would live by the same standards as as we would have here. I don't know that we would have crowd gathering permits on that and it'd be part of the tournament. It could be. So it probably stay at the 30

or if they wanted to come and get a crowd gathering permit from you maybe. But I don't see that happening unless unless there's a a a big tournament and they want to use a lot of courts down here. Then of course they would probably approach the W Park courts. I mean we have a lot of pickle ball courts on this beach right now. Duck Woods has four or five of them right now that they just put in. But I mean, if you would consider also adding a commercial establishment like the sports club, um I think that would be appropriate for this language. Thank you.

Um, so I I see um I I'm in favor of carrying this forward with the modification of the language that we brought up and it's difficult to know exactly what it is, but I think you Kelly can sculpt that um quite well. Um my question um I I currently like the idea of including commercial. I think that that makes sense to kind of put it in the same pile. Um the public private partnership and all. Um so that's the motion I'd like to make right now. Okay. We all have a consensus on that.

Well, are we agreeing to making this commercial? Are we I'm not sure what we're agreeing to. Well, I'm I'm I'd like to make it with commercial. If that isn't something you support, then then you're moving to include commercial in this. That's what I wanted to be. What I was voting for. I'm comfortable. That's and that's mainly the the lighting, right? And and actually the only other piece would be the end of day, you know, the mandatory curfew. Um that that might because this the property Well, no, they're they're right. It's commercial property everywhere there. Commercial. Yes.

Oh, okay. Because I'm thinking some pickle ball courts are in more of a residential area. Cutting off at 9 or 10. And you're talking about pickle ball the lights that would be till 10:00. You have a lot of residential around you. There is. So, I've actually pulled it up just as information. So, I think the pickle ball courts would be over here. Is that correct? Correct. So, you've got closer to the highway. Yeah. Right. Okay. You do have some back here, but if we are doing this, then they would be subject to the same requirement. If we got substantiated complaints from these homes back here,

then Manny would have to put in some noise attenuating features, which he may put in already. Who knows? That seems to make sense. I mean,

right. Right. Well, the fact that it's closer to the highway is And you and you have the the way to restrict trespassing of the light and noise. I hope this is is this okay that I'm adding this sis, Kelly, or is this is it weird? No, no, no. This is fine. It's it's easy tweaks. We'll do it um before it goes to the board of commissioners. So, we have a motion. We're all good about adding that. Yeah. I have Motion. The motion is on the table. Second or I'll second. Okay. Are we clear about the motion?

Uh yes. Motion to approve as presented with increasing the curfew from 9:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. for publicly publicly owned, publicly accessible, and including commercial. Correct. Um and then ensuring that the language is clear that um the 10:00 curfew would not apply if you have an approved crowd gathering permit and that crowd gathering permit would supersede um the curfew. Yeah. Yeah. We all live with that. All in favor of that? I Anybody opposed?

Okay, it passes. Thank you. It just seemed like an easier time to do that instead of having another application come later. I think it makes it seem more seamless. I Thank you. Thank you. Didn't want to bring this up because I didn't think it was appropriate. All right. But the lighting um I have a huge pet peeve about how certain businesses have much higher illumination. This this than other businesses. This is something that I've brought up in the past and I would love to have some sort of equity available. Yes.

Well, the the thing that Mr. Duchia mentioned was the shielding around light was focused the area. I brought to this in in the area of Satderfield. There's a a property adjacent to Satderfield landing soccer areas that has put up new lights that I cannot see my dog at night walk because of the lights. And it is. So, I'm walking in there's a shadow down down opposite of Hawaii wherever I am back there regardless. So yeah,

thank you all. Um, next we have the report on board of commissioners actions. See? Um, there's probably not a whole lot in here to be honest. Um, so, yep. gave uh our monthly report for what's going on in the planning department and then deputy planning director Joe Costello did kind of give a pretty deep dive into where we're at with our Estrin Shoreline management plan. There's been some movement um there. So, I don't know if you would like to hear from him today or if perhaps at our next meeting you would like for him to give that presentation to the planning board as well. Um, if that's something you're interested in

next. Do you all want to defer this to the next meeting? We're already at 11. You good with giving that presentation next month? That'd be all right. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Joe.

All right. That's it for that section. Um, so we will plan to do that. And then as far as the monthly report, um, not too much to go over there. Um, I will say talking about um because we updated the board of commissioners on where you this board was at with their applications and then what's coming next and this did not get looped in there. Um, but I did want you to know that the site plan approval for the Dair County EMS station, um, if you remember that, some of you remember that, that approval has lapsed and they are ready to roll. They thought they were going to have to pause it for a little bit. Um, but they are back on track to get that under construction. So, it's likely that at your next um at your February meeting, in addition to TWW's architecture and Joe's ESMP, you're going to see that um EMS station again as well.

Just wanted to give you a heads up. Um Septic Health Advisory Committee um scheduled to meet this month. Uh January 27th is our quarterly meeting. Um, we did get someformational signage up on all of our water quality loggers. There are six of those throughout town. They measure nitrates. Um, and a good portion of them is above ground. And so we realized that um, either people were curious about them or maybe kids were just vandalizing them because they were there, right?

So we put someformational signage out there to say that they are water quality loggers. They're monitoring nitrates. uh nitrates can come from various places um and gave them a a QR code where you can log on um and read more about the program. So um that's been helpful so far. Sand relocation, these numbers are probably very different um now, but at the time that this was written, which was at the end of December, we had issued 103 sand relocation authorizations and Lily processed 44 dune management cost share application. So, uh, for the new members, I don't know if you're familiar with the program.

Okay. Um, yeah, but it's a it's a wonderful program and, um, Lily had noted that because it's a three-year cycle for that full 3500 that most of what she's seeing this year are people eligible for the 35 again as opposed to the interim thousand. So, um it's probably those numbers are probably very different by now, but um and I do like to highlight the uh planning department's uh permit turnaround times. That's something that people focus on a lot. And um we're doing well. Uh so for the first quarter, our average turnaround time for residential and commercial, not including trade permits like your electrical, mechanical, things like that. Um we're we're holding at three days which is is good and I appreciate um what everybody does over there in our department um for Dowy Park farmers market and art and culture. Um it seems a little delayed but since the last time we spoke we had the uh flashlight candy cane hunt which is something that our event coordinator Paige Griffin holds at Dowy Park. Super well attended this year. I think more and more people are coming to that. Um, so just want to thank everybody that participated in that. Um, we had our first winter market on January 10th. Um, the February market's going to be the first. Um, or no, it's the second Saturday. Um, in February, I don't

Valentine's Day. I think it's Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day. Wonderful. Maybe people will come out. Yeah. Get some goodies. Um,

but those are going well. Um we're going to be the art and culture committee will be sort of um giving their update on how 2025 went and what they're hoping for in 2026. So any budget asks for art and culture will come at that point and um Paige is just really busy gearing up for the summer at this point. So put some photos in here for our winter markets. Um and then this is just a great picture from our candy cane hunt. All these kiddos and um Sam Lock with the studio kind of being the MC orchestrating it.

That's all I have um for that. Thank you. Does anybody have any questions, comments? Very good. Well, then we are moving on to planning board members agenda. Oh, we have one more thing. Sorry. ahead of yourself. My apologies. Yep.

This is the dullest thing you do all year is probably review your submittal calendar. Um I don't I Joe I find this riveting. Yes. So Joe and I are into it. Okay. All right. Well, I expect some commentary on it. Questions. I I think it's wonder. I think it's You've done great work here. Um I think the font could use a change, but that's me. Fair. Stop, please. New year, new font. Is that it? New year, new font.

Um I will say the only thing that we sometimes change with this is when your planning board meeting in December gets too close to Christmas. But this year it's December 15th, so we should be fine. But I'll leave that up to you. December the 15th. I got December 7th. It should be all right, shouldn't it? I can't increase. We could maybe have an ugly sweater gathering or bring your favorite pet to that part. That one bigger Christmas. Can I can I can that would be

if if we ever want to have bring your favorite domestic gated partner whether it's four-legged or otherwise to a meeting. You know that maybe do that in one of these. That'd be great. I know that my dog would love the opportunity to learn about to impress all the rest of you on how well behaved she is. Yeah. I wish I could say the same about mine. Well, you maybe they could communicate that out. That would be a committing a subcommittee meeting. A canine subcommittee meeting. We could have it at the dog park. Blue would be an ugly recommending two things. Ugly sweater at Christmas. I think it could be. I think your dog should have to wear an ugly sweater or cat

or first of all, I got to get my dog into the ugly sweater. Maybe that should be part of the event. Yeah. Can Can we have further discussion after the meeting? That was that was that was that was the only commissioner's business I had. So So this is planning board members agenda and you this what you're recommending?

One actually the only thing I would love to see I've just done we all do traveling here and there. The arts thing came to to mind. We've got some great properties in the town that are getting that are being much more utilized. And when I go to other places, art of size to be seen from the road is something I always look forward to. And that's something that if we could do more of it, I think of years back when I visit Estis Park in Colorado, you know, the work they do appreciating their environment and bringing wildlife not into the area, but wildlife, images of wildlife into the air or shapes of wildlife into the area. We live this close to the water and you know, the water's all around us. Um, but I would love be great if you could see some sculptures here and there. You know, that moving forward that'd be great. We do a great deal inside our buildings with art. We can see it all around and in the town hall. However, in our outdoor spaces, I think the way that a light interacts with that stuff is is remarkable and sound as well.

We kind of discussed that in the core, didn't we? We we have, but it's it doesn't seem to I think the architectural lines are as much as art has gone. That's kind of where we've been stuck. So, I will say, and this has not even been presented to the art and culture committee, but Paige had run into um a young artist who's obtain some grant money to do a sculpture and she's putting her information together to see if it's something that we would accept or want at Dowy Park. I think the largest part of that is assuming or ensuring rather that once we see the renderings it's something that we can keep people safe. Are there hard edges? Is there metal? Is it you know are kids going to so um

we're trying. Yeah. No and and you know just I understand that it needs to be because it's an outdoor space. It needs to be something that we can touch and lick. However, you know, that doesn't mean that we can't, you know, try to come up with Well, I think you know what they did, I think it was Mano High School Art when they did the sidewalk or the um over at Doutheast Park out in the road, they did a beautiful mural on the road and it was to link one sidewalk to the north side to the south side. So, that was this committee

that is so beautiful. I mean, it's really vibrant and it's beautiful. And even the wall in Dowy's Park that was painted, which incidentally needs to be repainted. It's looking a little rusty, a little shabby, but things like that and our banners that we have by the beach accesses that I think um I know our beautiful late Carrie Oakmith Sanders was part of that. I'd love to see more of that in our community.

Maybe that's an opportunity. I will say every year um the um art mast project is its own separate line item in our budget and the board allocates money um for the art and culture committee to solicit local artists to do those those panels that you're seeing. Um and they're pretty time consuming. So I believe Paige Griffin the coordinator already has two artists currently working on theirs and last year's budget has been allocated um encumbered to put those up. I actually think if you go down to maybe June Street, there's already a poll there just waiting for the mask to be hung.

Oh, that's wonderful. Um but every year we try to solicit two to three um artists that will do that. So it's something that takes some time, but we're we're gradually adding to it. Well, okay. So down that road, you know, carrying on with that, could we come up with a separate line for another one trick pony for this cycle? Be it on maybe a two-year cycle, have a have an outdoor art something, and it could be recurring. Every two years, you have another one coming up, something that would be permanent.

And the reason I like two years is because the creative process takes time. The rest of this takes time, too. And the way they come the way they could come together is a two-year cycle seems to make sense. That would be something. So if you trust me, I can let the art and culture committee know. But my mind is like, so you should shoot me an email that says that and then I can take that to our next art and culture meeting because I'm sure that's something they would love to think about. Cool. Or just trap Paige somewhere and tell them. We talked about doing some of that when we were talking about incorporating the boardwalk. Yep. Yeah. And having them along the boardwalk.

And incidentally, I walked the boardwalk last week. Took a little field trip down there. Amazing. The new one. The new one. Wow. Oh my gosh. I actually accessed right by the adventure park because it links up so nicely with the boardwalk of the adventure park. That's where Robert and I, my husband, we took a walk all around and it is very well done and just stunning. I think it's going to be a huge asset to our community and I love projects that incorporate families to come out and walk on it and enjoy it and stroll it and yeah, it's fabulous. I'm very I was so impressed.

Joe's help, we might have a living shoreline out there soon. Oh, cool. Well done. I'm good. Anything? Okay. Can I make a motion? Uh, yes. To a journ. Okay, we are. Congratulations and thank you all. Happy happy trails in Australia. Yes, you are now moving now. I was I was watching my I know. I've already heard