Comprehensive Plan Committee - Regular Meeting

the meeting to order. Yeah, but he can write. We probably don't have minutes. I think that was on me to do and I Well, I was on I think I was just taking scratch. I can't remember. Um comment seeing no public. We'll skip over that. And vision statement review. Yeah. Um maybe we can take a minute to go through the agenda first.

Yeah, let's go through the let's go through the agenda for tonight. Um so we have basically kind of three things we're going to try to get to. Although the first two are the most important ones and the last one is uh hopefully we get to some of it. But the first one is uh to review and discuss a draft vision statement which again is a draft. probably expect people to have lots of comments and thoughts and discussions, but this is a um well Suzanne will go into that in a little more detail. Then we're going to um think about sort of big big picture transition from you know vision to how does the vision start to translate into future land use thinking and then also into kind of the goals and strategies. So, um, we thought we'd spend a little bit of time looking at the, uh, you know, the purpose and and objectives of the future land use plan and the and the zoning map and then really have a little more discussion about, um, some some thoughts on the villages, um, as we've started to talk about that a little bit. And it kind of seems like an interesting foundation for some of the other discussions that we're going to have. And then uh we forwarded on the existing econ economics uh section which is what we talked about last time as being sort of the first you know topic area that we want to dive into. So hopefully we'll get into most of those things. Uh we don't want to short change the vision statement conversation. So um that will probably be the priority and we'll go into the other one. Does that sound good?

Yep. Great. So let's get started. Vision statement. Yeah. And do you want me to join via the Y the Zoom? Um I just logged it under your profile so connect it to the calendar. Y um okay I'm going to stand up.

Uh first of all happy new year. I hope everybody is surviving. Um so last time we met we talked about uh you know what a vision statement is. We can go over that a little bit more um again and sort of the role that it plays and the tone. I think I provided you guys examples of so we're going to go this of um Belfast

Belfast Carebaset Valley and like a lot of the things we're doing you know there's no one set way of approaching this and it really needs to be um something that comes from each individual community. So uh we talked about we also brainstormed again like some of the things we heard coming out of the public uh open house and then um also the survey right because there was that one question in particular that was like what do you hope the town will be like in the future. So, one of the things that we did is took all of the um things that we discussed in our last meeting about the vision for the future and you know the things that we heard at the meeting and then took all of that response that we got in the survey and summarized it down into this draft statement. um this is a starting point. You know, this isn't the like end all be all way that we are necessarily need to write this vision statement, but we felt like in going through this quite a bit that it reflected a lot of the key themes that we heard about um yearround community, about uh the role of civic institutions, the importance of the school, you know, staying strong, um the importance of a balance between year round and seasonal um activity, the desire for uh attainable housing. Um and then some I mean not quite anecdotal but some very specific kind of imagery, right? Like we can we'll read through this um that reflects things that you all said and that we heard in the survey as well. Um, so one of the things that we were laughing today because I used to be a high school teacher. So I suggested I was like, "No, we could have everybody go around and like read a section aloud."

CSD, but um, so we thought, um, you know, acknowledging that we're grown-ups, you can take a few minutes. I don't expect that you guys all read this necessarily um since we sent it out this afternoon, but take a few minutes to read this over individually and you know highlight things that stand out to you. um think about, you know, does this wording make sense given all that we've talked about so far and then obviously your own personal like heart and soul component of this and um well I love the are alive in every season. Oh, what a nice

So think about that. Um take a moment and then we'll regroup and kind of work through this. I don't and that we're not really going to walk we're going to bring it up on the screen. We're not going to like word smith it out together as a group, but we will essentially collect all of everybody's comments and thoughts and suggestions and then go back and revise it um just to be mindful of time. Sometimes it can be hard to like write sentences as a group. So, why don't we do that? It's 509. Take like two or three minutes amongst yourselves to read unless people want to read aloud. I think it looks very swell.

I'd like to live in this town. I was just going to say something. Just one of the thoughts I always had is uh

will you wait one more minute just because I see some people some very close reading and thinking and definitely definitely want to hear what you have to say. Figured it out. And where did you save it? Policy work.

Okay.

There's a bunch of going against my own. Okay. Um, do you want to make Yeah, that work.

Great. You can still hear us.

Okay, Judy, can you hear us?

I can. Yeah. And and I would say I I just thought the um draft statement was really wonderful and there were key words that were so true to what we wanted. Um especially like you know in the last thing that moving thoughtfully into the future preserving the character villages and natural beauty that makes Mount Dert unique while adapting to change with care balance and intention. Um I just thought it it was really good. Alan, do you want to pick up where you um

Yeah. Uh I one of the big things that uh it'd be nice to see is uh something about the mountains, the ocean. I don't know if we need to put in the accessibility of both. It's kind of not all communities have water access the way we do with the ocean and our lakes and ponds. But they are all quite accessible.

And we are we have supposedly five harbors, but only four of them we can use at low tide. And that's quite unique in a community. Of course, we have Northeast, Stonesville, Bartletts at Pretty Marsh, uh, Seal Harbor, and Otter Creek. Otter Creek is, uh, a little iffy, but that's for a small community to have that much is quite a treasure. So,

I don't know if that needs to be in a mission statement itself. something about um uh valuing the accessibility or the uniqueness of having so much access. Is that sort of what you mean? Yep, I guess so. Well, nowhere in this does it mention that we're an island community. Okay. Yes. I mean, yes, we're a bridged island, but still

that also makes us special. Yeah, it does say an integral part of the Mount Desert Island community, but it doesn't really like talk about the idea of being an island, right? Yeah. What does that mean from an aspirational perspective? Well, it kind of ties into the accessibility of the harbors, right? Okay. I had a question just on the formatting. Okay.

Um I was expecting a vision and values to be separate and they're kind of mixed together. Some of our vision is what we value. We strive for things. We envision things. We support things. um some of those exist and some of those are things that we want and it just seems like it would be better if we split those into these are the things we value and these are the things we hope to obtain because there's some mixed in other you know in other places it might get redundant I guess is the risk is like we have a great school and we want also a great school like that would be kind of weird to say it twice but um or maybe what we our vision for the future is the things that we don't have

that's really interesting. I just gonna say like I have never seen that before, but again there's like no fixed rules. So I think that's a really neat idea like what do people think about that? It makes it um draws more attention to the values. Do you imagine it as like a list? Uh well I was trying to put it in paragraph form and I ended up basically flowcharting it. What do we want more year round population? How do we get an economy? How do we get an economy? We open opportunities. like how do we open opportunities? You know, that's policy changes. So, it was a you know, I wonder if that fits into the goal objective, right? Yeah. You know, of that you could spell it out in a very specific way.

You can get very specific there. But I was thinking for the vision, it should have the seeds of those goals in it. Definitely.

Right. And we brought this um we were talking about how we always throw these like impromptu diagrams at you guys, but we're talking about how can you see that? Okay. How we sort of nest this and I don't know Judy if you can see it. Um kind of like a funnel you're the vision is this sort of broad concept that everything is really supposed to fit under and then point back. Right. So logically like I think we were describing is like a logic

right then we should all logically um you know relate to the one above and the vision is sort of like that all-encompassing um framing and then it all sort of flows into the future land use. Yeah. And I so also to add to all this discussion is I think it's a really interesting way to think about it. Um, first off, so be curious to hear what others think, but I don't think you need to also say um, you know, it's not necessarily what you just to try to react to your other thought is. It doesn't necessarily need to be like what you hope the community is in a different way. Like if you are envisioning

things that are like, you know, say everything is great here. We want you to stay the same. Like that's a perfectly acceptable vision. Yeah. I I think you want to be aspirational in your framing but that doesn't mean you're not in that aspiration sort of reflecting the great things like you know about you know accessible you know it's our community continues to be accessible um to the oceans and the lakes or something like that but so I'm just making stuff up right now but that's yeah but that's so don't be cons you don't need to constrain yourself by saying like we have to think about something that's a change only think about policy so today.

I will also add the it's I think I'm really curious about this conversation because I think in other ways that we have thought about this as well is that there's um sometimes u thinking about them in terms of like guiding principles. And so those might be

um some of the values that we pull out of a vision statement that's a little more narrative format. And that are really those things that kind of and we can think about guiding principles in a lot of different ways, but like maybe a framing of what you're talking about comes gets pulled out of what we're talking about and then we can um you know highlight them somehow graphically that just says like think about you know these are the things that come out of that or we could even highlight some of those values in the narrative so that the words stand out more. It's just another way to think about it. But I mean this is again we're not I think what we want to make sure is we're capturing all of the stuff that you're talking about either in this format or some other format. Yeah.

This discussion. Yeah. At the end of the day, right? Like we need to make sure all the right ideas are in there and then we can format it differently if that makes sense and helps people really understand. Well guiding principles be something like values, things that we value. Could be. Yeah. like in um Belfast. I'm trying to think what they were. It was something like Community Health was one of them. Yep. Uh and yeah, I should remember, but it's like a blur. Yeah.

Um we're sort of at the end of our Carabass Valley work and they like um connectedness is like a big theme. There's more like themes there. So they have a big trail network, you know. Um and then their future land use plan because they have no like one uh village or village center. They're talking about how do you um invest in a couple of these different places that exist there to create more opportunities for connection in their community. They have like a town office and a park and a pool in one area, but then they have this like Have you guys been there? So there's um the anti-gravity center complex is a big deal where the grocery store is and the library. They have like a couple different sort of like quasi civic areas. So anyway, so those are like themes or sort of one-word ideas that are um not exactly like maybe what you're getting at in terms of like values.

Yeah. Um I like that idea. Let's keep thinking about that as we go through more. So we um what do you guys think about the way it talks about sort of economy and tourism? We had a big discussion amongst ourselves about you know people often use the word balance in these discussions. Here it says rightsized. I underlined an economy that serves residents first as a top priority. Yeah, I think so. We were uh we were both like,

is that too aggressive or like assertive or okay to say that? I want to know is it is it limiting? Yeah. Like if you're attracting businesses and you're like, well, you've got 200 customers and that's it. Serve these people first. Yeah. Yeah. It could read that way, but then also we want businesses that we don't want an Amazon warehouse that just ships things away. We want a store that's open here that's affordable. I mean, that's what I have beautiful stores, but we don't visit them all that often because we can't afford what it is they have or we don't need it. Yeah. All the time.

But I love going to Sam shops. mostly go into the drawers down below because they have the stuff like the treats at Sarah. Do I need a treat? Yeah. But that's what I was thinking of an economy that serves residents first is businesses that accommodate the day-to-day needs of local community. I think you know like like a grocery store, a hardware store. Maybe if we just got rid of first. That's not what I interpreted. I mean, it's helpful, right, to have different perspectives and see how other people could read it. But I to me that's a like that could be a more controversial statement which whether or not we decide that's a good thing. But

you mean of affordability uh that right right that it's like that your customers are your local neighbors. Um but as opposed to the you know we know there's so much other revenue but to me the statement that our economy is serves I'm looking at it on my screen too. So serve residents first isn't about the businesses specifically serving residents. It's about the overall economy and that seems like irrefutable like and I don't know what the it's the first moving I like the first because it feels really strong. It does. Yeah. Yeah. If you think about if I argue it that way like

there's nothing wrong with this. This is like like the broader health of the economy is what we want. So and that benefits everyone but we want to say the central you know criteria is whether or not it benefits the locals or yeah I think we all read the economy as stores and market and you're saying no it's just just economic people have employment. Yeah, can afford where they live, right? That that's what the broader Yeah. I think this comes from expressed concern maybe that there's

um even when we looked at the economy data, right, like that there's um the establishments the number of establishments was kind of going down, but that it was also um less and less or serving the yearround community or the residents. Um, is it benefits residents first? Is that the same thing?

So, do you guys like the word first? I also wrote down a note. Should it say resident's day-to-day needs, which is sort of what you were describing, Kathy, is that too um the first is a rough word for me. I don't I don't know for I like you said, does that mean okay, 200 people that live in the town, they come first. Everyone else is behind. I didn't think of it until Yeah. I don't know. But if we don't do understand it also. Yeah. Yeah. If we don't think of it as stores that we shop at and like um it's the the whole economy shouldn't serve because it's ours,

right? I think the context of when we were discussing it too is really again it's it is a one of the paragraphs that we're like this does need a lot a little more. Could you say community first instead of resided? I mean, because we have a summer community, too. We have people, you know, that are snowbirds and then they come back for the instead of it does beg like and who's second. Yeah, I know. I'm like that's if I was someone Yeah. reading this, I'm like, oh, what's sort of implying too that like that the economy is not serving it's serving visitors, right? as you look at it in the reverse.

Well, the context again was back to like thinking more about I think comments that we had heard or gotten from the survey about maybe even over tourism concerns and those kinds of things. So, is tourism like overshadowing is the tourism economy not serving the community? So then we can get into a lot bigger of discussion about how do we

recognize that tourism is is important and it's part of our overall economy and how do we make tourism how do we help make sure tourism is a sustainable part of our economy and not an extracted part of our economy but I'm not sure this exactly captured that but I think the context is the way you're framing it which is we're talking about the economy serving the residents rather than like individual businesses being like only residents.

Mhm. I had lunch today at the community cafe and sat with a a group of people who didn't necessarily know each other, etc., but they've all been here for decades, you know, 40, 50 years, and thought and really commented on this is like this town is not the same. You know that we see every house getting sold to seasonal use only. We don't have neighbors anymore. The traffic is terrible. I I'm thinking of moving to Le Moy, you know, that kind of thing. And and I think it it it speaks to this of who's the economy serving.

I wonder if we could put in somewhere uh the town of Mount Dert, which includes Northeast Harbor, Seal Harbor, Stonesville, Hulcore, Pretty Marsh, and Otter Creek. If we could throw those names in there. How about sound generally village? The sound village mean the village is that detail document is like a list of the villages. They are each their own little too. Absolutely.

So um is it in the document? It's not it's not in um this comes really early on in the comprehensive plan like final product the vision statement. Uh so I want to say like no it wouldn't be spelled out and I think maybe the question is like does it make sense to specifically call out villages in the vision statement that maybe that's the question for because it is unique in a way. I mean, yeah. And one of the next things we're going to do after this conversation is sort of transition into talking about how the villages are like a really important framework for this discussion. So,

sorry, just because I think I want to build on what you're going to say. I think if in the the outline of the comprehensive plan, there could very well be an introductory paragraph or two that basically says, you know, here's the comprehensive plan of the town of Mount Desert and it includes the villages of blah blah blah. Yes. Cover page. like that unless it's not like forced into a vision statement. You know what I'm saying? So, I'd like to I think it's really important because builds on as as Suzanne was saying like the I think one of the interesting questions that we'd want to ask you guys is like we hear a lot about like how

you know the villages are such an important part of the identity of this community. when you look around like there's a lot of um when you look at the maps like there's there's really interesting things to think about about the villages that are not the same as other towns on MDI or other places that we that you go and visit and and live in or we work in. And um it could be a really interesting organizational principle to think about, okay, here's townwide stuff, but then we also have to think about how these townwide things are going to be applied more to the villages. And I think we're gonna hopefully we'll get to that and and it may pan out and it may not pan out but I so I wanna I think it's a really interesting thing. I'd like to put a pin in but we could address it in a couple of different ways. We'll have to figure out how it how it

thinking about people who are not familiar with the area. Sure. You know they may think you know northeast Harbor is just Northeast Harbor. They think it's a town. They don't actually know as someone who moved here recently. I didn't think that because it someone I might tot for example it's hard to feel like Yeah, right. And I think there are plenty probably people who don't really have that association.

Yeah. Um I had on a different point just a few word smithy type things but it comes to um more than that I'm wondering in the first sentence resilient year round or families seasonal residents workers retirees what about individuals I don't want to leave people out because they're fall one of those

yes I struggled I I guess what I I was thinking is like how can we reduce how can we cut things out? Um, and I didn't get admittedly get very far in thinking about that and obviously we also don't want to delve into the child edits, but I was wondering if the first two sentences could be combined, which might get at what you're saying as well. And I was thinking Mount Desert is a diverse multigener generational community where people know one another and families, young people, retire. It doesn't it still has a list, but it's a little bit families, young people, retirees, and seasonal year-round residents all find opportunity. just like merge those two first sentences because I think I was also getting stuck on a like why why this group like why these groups. Yeah.

If our if our intention is to be all inclusive let's not leave out people who are not part of a family. Yeah. And it's like a real um right art to like be write that in a way that is descriptive enough without being a long list. I just what you said. Could you either like email that or um I still think it's like it's not it bumps against that challenge. And this is not a legal document here where residents refer to people who spend six months here. So we can just say residents and visitors. People who work here are visiting to work and people who reside here in the summertime are residents. Right. Even though

there's a lot of discussion around those labels. Bad topic. Yeah, the rainy bench. Yeah, we were doing our um presentations on housing with um the historical society and she had a really nice way of breaking it down. And I think in the demographics inventory, we kind of described it similarly, but yeah, that's a tricky one. So you could say residents and visitors and get rid of the list of, you know, the families, the seasonal residents, the workers, the retirees, people that work part-time, you know, you know, yeah,

you get too gritty with that. Um, and my other question was how this right is written, Mount Dessert, is it the town of Mount Dert is a welcoming place and then we strive and the residents uh somewhere here there's residence I think. Mhm. Um but I just I'm not sure who exactly is authoring this. The town would the town. Yes. So the So I look at the town as the town's going to vote on this the corporate entity of the town. No, I think the residents of the town get to vote, right? So it's the residents. It's really because we're the ones who get to vote, not the not the visitors or even the summer residents.

So it's more like the residents of Mount Desert have created a welcoming and resilient year-round town. I mean because the town entity did not do that. The people did that. It's like really specific to for the weeds. But I don't disagree with you, right? Like the town is writing this plan and voting on it and you guys are the lucky, you know, doers of this process point of view of the narrative is from the should be from the people I think is what you're getting. Yes. not the government or the higher officials people then administration definitely not us

so because also because we also live on that Mount Dert island thing so you got Mount Dert and Mount Dessert and the town of Mount it's really confusing the best mess people up maybe there's some value in really being specific here and saying town of thinking the people of the town of Mount Dert basically yeah I words. Um, yeah. What do you think about the use of the word? I was just say if you're talking about Mount Desert Island, we just always say Mount Dert Island, you're talking about the town of Mountur, you just say say Mount Dert. Yeah. But you guys are residents of the town of Mount. I'm only

Or Mount Ice Cream. Is that or Mount Ice Cream? Yeah. Do you what's your reaction to use the word we? Is that that you is great as long as we establish who the wei is. So it seems like early on we need to say the residents of say we the residents of Mount Dert the top and then I'm kidding like we the people.

Why not we the people of Mount Dert? As I was scribbling down and drafting up what I would say, I ran into this problem of if I say we are welcoming committee community, I know some people in the community not welcoming, right? You know, aspire to be welcome, right? And so like everybody's signing on to this document might be hallucinating, but you know, it's still a vision. It's a it's a definitely a sticky thing to write uh in a way that's not so broad and ambiguous that it includes everyone and no one at the same time. Right. But then also has goals in it.

Yep. So we have versions of this that were much longer. Yes. We got several paragraphs out of versions. I can see how there has Oh, I don't know. I'm going back and forth. I I'm fine. I mean, if you started it with Town of Mount Desert as well to me. I sort of feel like that first sentence is a statement about the town and then yes, we're going into the we the values and

yeah like we the residents of the town of Mount Dert is like now we're starting a legal document. No, no, no. I was kidding. I was kidding on words. The word accessible housing, I wonder if just call it what it is, either affordable or the term that's been more in vogue lately is attainable. Um, but accessible, many people might read that as ramps to get to a door, like any handicap.

Yeah, handicap accessibility. But I think what we're talking about here is that they are affordable and there is such uh a range of connotations that come with that that people are using attainable more often.

Who's to say what's affordable? I mean that's what I'm saying. So maybe just anable is a little bit more. Yeah. Okay. Uh down where it talks about tourism is right sized and you brought this up earlier about what if it's beneficial. Tourism is beneficial and that way that limits when it gets too big it's not right because what is right sized that's what we had a whole for the tour boat captain right sized is as many people as possible different though

because you could read it as a statement like tourism is beneficial or as an aspiration like I think it needs it means what if we want it to mean what you're saying I think we need to add some other words in what's sometimes we were saying earlier people talk about it in terms of balance um which is a great idea and then when you really drill down it remains subjective right so and it's also changes over time and maybe that's okay maybe it's not I don't know that um what is the balance that people are comfortable with right but I do like the idea of it being beneficial we talk a lot about like regenerative tourism how does like there will always be tourism here It's not a negative

thing necessarily, but like how does how does the community also I think it only takes one more word there. Tourism is beneficial in supporting the local economy while preserving tranquility, safety, and natural environment. So tourism has to align with those values. What do you guys think about that? Good. We are kind of getting more smithy here though. Not writing sentences.

Yeah. What are you going to say? I think it's it's not a vis is a um I think I need to wait and think about it. Okay. We're going to word smith. I think the next Senate should start with the town is an intricral part of Mount Rert Island community because we're talking about our town. That's where it gets confusing with Mount Lazert and Mount Bazer. Not dessert. The town or just the town? Just the town.

Okay. Um later on in that sentence I was thinking collaboration with our neighboring towns to address housing, transportation, economic vitality, environmental stewardship. I thought it needs something else in there like addressing issues or concerns or topics of

housing. You already have that the way you're looking at wrote out something much longer than I need too long.

Why the same kinds of schools English teachers all the same. Mhm. Mhm. Well, it's a really like it is such a hard you want to um you want to get them all those words right having too many. But I like that. That's good. And you know one I made a note for myself here. Tourism is not summer residents. They're very different different and it presents different kinds of of challenges. And I'm wondering if we should somehow get that in here because our our economy does depend on summer residents to a great degree,

right? Y but it we are going for many people the tip we're past the tipping point. Yeah. And um and so I think we have to acknowledge the important role they play but finding the balance is is critical. Would you say tourism and summer visitors? You want to limit them to just July and August too, but what do we say then? Or maybe we want more. We maybe we want more of those people more of the year, right?

Tourism and and and I'm just thinking that we we refer to seasonal residents in that first sentence which we know we're going to change and we talk about tourism. It's supporting the local economy. But I think it might be important to um to give greater weight to the value of summer residents. Acknowledge their importance. Exactly. But somehow also find a way to temper the impact of summer residents on the yearround community. That's all. And are you think sorry to get like so I'm not words smithing that is different summer residents or does it

I think summer residents is very different than summer visitors. Yeah. Yeah. People who own property and have engaged here you know they they're members of clubs around the island. They're members they have their own association.

Yeah. So just to go back then to and I'm looking looking at the screen too like where we talk about the economy and we s say the serves residents first. So maybe it's like the sentiment there is like yearround and summer residents, right? Because if you're living here for the summer, you're not necessarily patronizing the same things that are like, you know, a one I'm just saying a bar harbor, right? Like a oneoff vacation purchase type of thing. You need to integrate and live. Yeah, they great. If you're thinking about I think the distinction you're trying to make is that tourism is like a visitor that's here and then they're gone and they may never come back,

right? And they have a certain set of impacts to this to the town. And then you're thinking about summer residents is maybe is a part of the community that we're talking about, right? And then they're like year- round residents have has have a certain impact on the community and summer residents have a certain impact on the community and sometimes they're different, sometimes they're the same. So what what in in a vision statement are we trying to recognize? So like tourism is part of the economy whereas summer residents are part of the community and the economy.

Sure. But in a different way, right? like you were saying. So, the economy might be a year- round summer economy. I'm just trying to think about it like as a vision statement. How do we know how do we like you want to we're embracing the summer residents as part of the community and then we're also thinking about how different parts of the economy benefit the community. And I think that that's the big question is they are an a very important part and they have been for a very long time, right?

But the balance has really shifted. So in what ways? So that housing is less available because it is empty. It's vacants. Over 60% of our houses are now vacant. That's a a huge impact on year round residents. But would you say we have more summer residents or we have more visitors? I think that a lot of those homes are owned by summer residents. I think that there's probably more homes owned by summer residents than owned by investors who just turn them over. I I don't know the data on that. But I think you're right.

But I think that, you know, we keep trying to get that data and we can't get that data. And so I I think that that's so that's in an impact. But I think that our local economy, the businesses, the storefronts are dependent on that community. And so they shut down because those people aren't here anymore. And so now we don't have a restaurant that's open. We don't have shops that we can go to. We don't have a hardware store, you know. So I think that the impact is huge. And it's just it's not that it's it's just that it's out of balance, that's all. you know, and I don't know how to express that in here without offending anyone.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't I'm not trying to offend, but I'm just, you know, but but that's the fact that every house that comes up Yeah. is unaffordable to people who can afford to live here year round. Or who want to live here year round. And so that's just we just keep seeing that go bigger and bigger. Yeah. That's just trying to because I think this is a really interesting

distinction. So, but I think we're trying to benefit. We're trying to support vision that I'm hearing is we're trying to embrace the community and all the aspects of the community. Summer residency year round people whatever else we want to say is part of community here. Then there's an economy that is both year round and seasonal. Sometimes because of who is in our community there's a over reliance on that part of the economy seasonally. And we want to get more toward that. We're trying to Does that say? Yeah, it just says year round. Year round. Now, if you can put that in a sentence for us, great. Yeah.

Yes. And again, we're not trying to we're it's part of this discussion. And the part of the interesting thing about coming up with vision statements is we're actually starting to identify those things that are like, well, these are the challenges that we have to pinpoint that are preventing us from achieving the vision that we just talked about. And that's kind of where we're at right now. And I think that similarly with tourism is right sized. Yep. I think we want a summer community that is right sized so that we can achieve balance that's all that ship has sailed.

That's not I mean that's what is that what we would like the ship could turn around. I don't I mean like there like part of this is being aspirational even if we feel like all of us lost which hopefully we don't but you know yeah but to to your point Kina we could uh use language that isn't like so aspirational as to be unrealistic okay that would be we could use it we could like take the aspiration and try to frame it in a way that's a little more like tech

realistic kind it's not necessarily like the idea Yeah, the balance isn't necessarily like a 5050 split or something. But one thing we could do here where it says tourism is right size and my note is to say tourism is beneficial in supporting I mean we can add something there about being better in balance or some you know interjecting that word balance in there that part. I was wondering about something. It doesn't fit quite in the sentence that it that that's there, but um that both seasonal residents and other residents need to be supported by the economy in a way that's mutually beneficial.

Is it realist? I don't know that you Well, I'll tell you. Um, so a few years ago in January, we had that major uh storm and people's basements got flooded and people came back to take care of their houses if they're mostly here in the summertime. It's like, oh, where am I going to go get something to eat or harbor, you know? So, you never know when you're going to be up here at a time of year for whatever reason stay through co and it would be Yeah, it would be nice if there were places to spend your time that were available. Pretty stark or I don't know if that's the right word, but it's pretty dramatic how everything closes.

Yeah. Um, going along that line, somebody said they liked the phrase, uh, community where neighborhoods are alive and because I don't think it has to say busy, you know. I think we like the calm down. That's why just the word alive is instead of saying, "Oh, we want everything to be busy year round." I think I like that it just sets it back in my pull out. Yeah. Just alive. It doesn't have to say busy, crazy busy, but just alive is Yeah. Nice.

Okay, great. And to me, that sort of speaks to the idea that there's lights on. People are Yeah, that's Yes. Yes. Isn't it null? Don't you use the trickor treat or the Christmas tree? Yeah, it's my my trick-or- treat my Halloween test. Yeah, that's an a lot neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay.

Going back to the tourist seasonal resident population. Um, that's a we have a huge seasonal population change which can incorporate both those groups and we can single them out later if necessary. It would just be a way to, you know, our seasonal population changes need to support our local economy and preserve tranquility and safety in that way. Yeah. Because it's not just summer residents anymore. There's workers. There's season Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The grocery store selection changes in the summertime. It's, you know, there's chicken, there's weird root vegetables. That's not tourist. Stuff I like to buy is there in the salt. All right. Any other any more thoughts on the vision statement? Is not the last go at it. We didn't really get to your larger question which is organizationally. You think that the way we've talked about it a little bit is is helpful or nobody else really we moved on before other people got to weigh in on Vid's suggestion.

I don't want to lose sight of that. I it's probably just how our mind works. You know, I heard vision uh vision and values statement and in my mind they separated into a vision. Yep. And values. Um there's no reason it can't be both at the same time. I think it might read easier or inform the goals, objection, actions later on if they're separated.

Yeah. I guess what I would to build on that a little bit, maybe challenge everybody to kind of look as we evolve this vision statement to also pull out what those things are that are either the values or value principles or whatever they are. And um you know because we can use that not only in our wording, but we can use it as a as a visual tool in the in the final product. and we might want to keep revising it as we're going through each of these other more challenging things to be like oh yeah we're supposed to be thinking about um you know a resilient yearround community as opposed to

whatever what's holding us back from that or whatever those kinds of things

wanted to um Gail did email us with some thoughts because she couldn't be here today I don't know that I'll necessarily read this email but she um uh didn't get a chance to like go over it in the amount of detail that we're obviously going in right now, but she said she feels like there needs to be something about remember when we talked about the idea of getting at the root causes of some of the things that we're wrestling with here. And um she uses the phrase a commitment to engage. And we were thinking about it in terms of um like should there be something in here that talks about like this is a place where we are willing to have those tough conversations together or work together, you know, come together to, you know, address these shared concerns kind of like we talked about in that other sentence. Um does that make sense what I'm trying to say? Um

is that more of a goal? It's definitely a goal and I think there there's a place for it as an action item too, but do we want I think maybe the way we're interpreting it and Gail, if you're listening to this recording after the fact, you know, uh I'm sorry for misrepresenting it, but something about like this is a place that will, you know, um it's a small community and we're willing to come together to like have productive conversations about difficult topics that we're facing. I don't know. That's my kind of paraphrasing of it. What do you think about that? That's aspirational. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's it's got a place in there like commit to actionable change or actionable.

Yeah. But it's not Yeah. difficult. We're willing. Yeah. We want to keep this without it being unrealistic. uh that we face challenges. Yeah. Like you know Yeah. diversity of opinions or something could be like honoring the diversity of opinions. Um well did you want to add to that? I wrote I think I have a different copy of this and I wrote it down somewhere else. I think I mean that's the you know getting back deals brought this up before and it's a really interesting part to to put it that like we want to have a goal or even an action where you're

like let's you know one of the things that we are going to do coming out of this plan is to have conversations with the community about the things that are actually holding us back from doing the things that we that we want to do. but to frame it and integrate it into this vision statement as part like this is part of who we are as a community. And I will say I mean we've had we've been involved in some like some stuff right some things and so and none of those things have been out of out of hand in terms of the conversations that we've had. You know if you that I've been you weren't here the night the police came. I was going to say you missed the night. There was one reason for that.

Yes. But most of the conversations have been very much like and they're deeply personal conversations sometimes. So I don't I mean I think there's a place to put that in here. I've been in some meetings where there's been a lot closer to physical confrontation than any meeting that I've had here and under less um important circumstances. So I don't know. I mean, I think there is something to be said for that and that's not just how what I guess what I'm getting at is it's not just aspirational like you there's already a bit of a culture of that. between. So we're just building,

you know, we might be able to work that into the sentence. Again, not words, but children grow up safely, independently outdoors, supported by strong education, shared spaces, culture where neighbors know one another, look out for each other, and have had serious conversations about challenges, committed to like being engaged in the community, some better way of saying it. Yeah. So, I think that there's an an a clear place, an accessible place to put it. Yeah. Um, do you think the um, second paragraph at the end when we're talking about how we collaborate with our neighboring towns? That's what I wondered.

You think it's important to add public safety in there because I think I think it is because when you go to like a real estate website and you're looking for the crime level right now, Mount Resert and Bar Harbor report as one. We look bad. We do look bad. God, I'm think it's something that we acknowledge that we do. Yeah. You know, that's just a little seed is to recognize that as we're sort of

we've had a lot of these conversations, but um you know, recognize your place in the region as a as an important part of the overall community. And our economy is tied to a lot of different things, not just here. Like the jobs aren't just here. the opportunities aren't just here, but I think it's important to put all that. Yeah. And where you're thinking about and and innovating conversations like public safety that are important for the future. So, can you repeat that for the typer? If you could just add public safety as one of the housing, transportation stabbed in Barber last night or something.

Oh, the domestic. Something happened that 10 miles over there or three or four. Yeah. Or it is the same town. I know. I know that, right? Anything else? I'm trying to keep things moving. So, next up, did you have one other thing? I have one other thing. I I think I was struggling at one point when I said like I should think about this more. Um, I understand it's all a vision statement, but it's several sentences in before we say like we envision. Yeah.

And there were several sentences that felt like factual, and that seems appropriate, but then it was like a little disorienting when there were ones that were truly visionary or aspirational, but like seemed like they're in a list of faction factual things. So if we started with aspirational at the beginning then because I think I was wanting to reorganize some of those sentences that are totally appropriate but like having a little bit of framing at the very beginning about what the do what aside from the title which is there. Um but that it's a vision. Yeah. An aspirate like a we we hope we we see we want to see. Do you feel like it should start out with like sometimes people are like Mount D of the future is or something like that or like the vision for

and that gets a little bit away from that like legal le does that make it sound like we're not a welcoming place right now? Well, no, not necessarily. But if you think about the way committed was framing it as like here's what we currently value that we have and like this is where we want to like keep and build on. Yeah.

Um I don't think so. Let me think about that. Kathy, do you think it's a welcoming and resilient year around town early where families and all these things? Excuse I think in some ways yes. But um I guess I'd just say like it really is meant to be this sort of like intention statement about the future. Yeah. And so maybe it's not necessarily to imply that this isn't currently.

I think what Shashan is saying is if we say we envision Mountain Dessert to be a welcoming and resilient community, it sounds like we're not. So we need to separate the factual statements clearly as facts. I think we could say something at the beginning that's like but I'm not sure at the beginning I think at the beginning and then like make it clear that everything is visionary and I'm not sure what that exact language is based on our values. These are the things that we are we want to see whether or not they're continuation or

okay we're new. Yeah, I'm gonna make a note of that. I just if you look at the screen, you can see like I've been basically taking tons of comment notes on everything you've said. And so like part of our job will be to go back and work these um great comments into this and produce a new draft and then send it back out to you guys. Um Judy, I don't want to put you on the spot, but just in case you wanted to say something you couldn't get a word in as otherwise. No, it's been interesting. I I I liked the original tone when I read it. I thought this sounds like a positive um you know, it it reflects the po the hope of where we want the town to be. And um so you know I I think people all the all the comments were really good and um I but I just think it's really important that the town of Mount Dert and all the little villages are unique and special and um we need to emphasize that.

Great. Thank you. Um, awesome. Well, this is not an easy task at all, especially because like there wasn't one to go from. So, kudos to everybody.

I have one other question. Sorry to go back to policy. Um, there there are things included in there. the tourism brought it up and the our collaboration with neighboring towns like Aadia National Park exists outside of our purview. Tourists will come. So what can we do about it? If it's out of balance, what's our action on it? But then the same thing happens to like does the town need to protect the environment because the DP has all the laws. We don't have any environmental laws like we enforce state laws. you know, so I just wonder and like the quality medical care that would be awesome, but town doesn't build hospitals, private hospitals build hospitals. So I was just wondering, are there a bunch of things in here that we aspire to? That's great to have them in there, but we just have to realize that they can't inform our goals as easily because they're not in our jurisdiction. I guess my quick response would be like sometimes goals are about the importance of close collaboration with the park or um with uh the GP or you know with those entities that yeah you don't have necessarily like the control over but that have a huge impact on your um quality of life. Um, and I I I just think they're part of that sort of holistic picture of, you know, what it is to or what the vision is to live here.

So, it won't throw us off later. No. Like, well, how how's our policy of building that hospital? It's like, well, we have a new medical. We do have a new that was that's right. You know the med the medical center really was started by the citizens of the town. Yeah. Which is like

out to the summer people. So, you know, I just look at that's really a phenomenal um thing that has happened in the last four or five years and it's brought some really, you know, it it's people now are using it because they realize it's for them. So the vision statement can be very much more holistic than like now we're after we're done with this we are going to start to like drill down okay like now we have the town not like the town

to say you know how how do we as a town government basically not either get in the way of this vision or how do we support the vision and sometimes it's as simple as we need to continue working and collaborating and participating in uh things that's hap that are happening uh at Aadia National Park. Or sometimes it could be like well we want to support uh more health care and so we're going to uh put infrastructure in place so that it's easy for the hospital to build more there or we're going to do a tax incentive or there's all the tools that we start to think about. So, I would keep all those things in there and then continue to ask the question like, okay, how do we we do,

you know, how do we do that? Like, we only have these tools in our toolbox, but we want those tools to be used for these things. I didn't feel like anything should come out. It just I was wondering where power. That's I think it's all that's okay. Yep. That's a really good question though because now we're going to get into it like set us up for failure think well that we can't do anything about these but yeah and in some cases it's very much a partnership right yeah in some situations why can't the town build that

we said you can't just how you want to spend your money awesome okay I'm going to hit save for All right, get back to this. I think the next step on this one will be uh us making some tweaks and then we'll try to wrap it up maybe next time around. Does that work? Yeah.

So, you know, we're back into this sort of like um flip-fpping situation where we're trying to make progress on a couple of different fronts and so we'll be jumping back and forth, but at some point we're going to have to like put that one out and just be like, great, we've done the best we can and we're going to shop it to the community at some point. Yeah, because we we'll word smith this one to death, but we just want to make it perfect.

All right, so I think the next thing we were going to transition to is moving into uh just thinking about, you know, big picture future land use stuff. So making a making a bit of a transition to starting to understand how we take this vision that we just talked about and then um there are real world uh applications geographically sometimes on this. So we're going to as we're going through all of these different sections I think we brought this up earlier but it would be I think it's going to be really helpful to have the zoning map up and to have the I'm going to call it your existing future land use map up. It's a good tongue twister so that we can then just sort of like start to write down like, oh yeah, we're thinking about this kind of thing and maybe we want to make sure that it it applies here. Um, we're going to be working on another version of your existing future land use map because this one's a little clunky and needs to be kind of like polished up a little bit. But just to give you a bit of a framework, um, if you haven't actually spent time with us yet, your current future land use map is organized in a couple of different ways, but the reds and the oranges that you see on this map here, here, here, these are like your village areas. So, the red ones are um what I think they were referring to is like your existing village areas. And then the orange air blobs are extended village areas. And so if you were to the the comprehensive plan rules actually require you to have a growth area and rural areas and then you also have to overlay on top of a map um your natural resource constraints and stuff. And some some towns also do like transitional areas so we can think about all those different things. Um, why it's important to start to think about that is because actually it's even more important now because new state laws actually have real implications on what

happens in a growth area, particularly growth areas that have water and sewer. Like you're now required to have um 5,000 square foot minimum lot sizes in growth areas with water and sewer. There's a lot of density changes that are happening statewide. Is that 5,000 bigger or smaller than what it used to be? Uh, it's smaller than what it used to be. Okay. Yep. In some areas, like here, like downtown, we actually have smaller lot sizes, but like in other areas, like I don't know, 5,000 square feet in a growth area is going to be a big change. We just want to think about it

because it increases density potentially. Yeah. Okay. And so, you know, we're still trying to figure out like terminology wise and that it doesn't really shouldn't really change the thinking about like, okay, well, this maybe this area is a growth area in the context that we're thinking about it, but we want it to be like tighter because we're thinking about it in the context of state laws, but we also think that the areas around it might be appropriate for growth. We just might not call them that. That make sense? Yeah, I think so. Do you want you like draw a line on there or we'll come back with another? I think we can come back to that

like we So I think what No was saying is one of the major products also in this plan that we'll create and you guys will um revise is this future land use map. And it could be that this growth area grows, it could be that it shrinks, shifts. It's really all about the discussions that we have and we want to keep this map with us when we go through these policy discussions to connect the dots between the vision statements like these ideas that we just talked about and sort of the where and um this we're going to revise this the lesson group just to make it more readable not change it. we're going to make another version that's a little bit easier to read is kind of what we're saying and then the committee will go through the process of like revising it.

So I would consider like what Suzanne was suggesting is like that black line is really your growth is the growth area of your current one of the growth areas in your current plan. Basically any place where it's purple, red or orange y is included in the existing plan. If we call it a growth area, then the state says now 5,000 foot minimum lot uh prescriptive legislation about what it means you say growth area. You can call it a future opportunity zone.

Yeah. Okay. And you can identify it map as being a place where you have like you know specific things in mind but not call it a growth area. Right. Yeah.

My observation working with a bunch of different towns is like that growth areas don't significantly change a ton. We're we're tweaking the edges more than the more than like saying, "Oh my god, this is a new growth area." You know, although that does happen. Um, so I think it's important to just keep in mind like, you know, as we're thinking about it, like this is what the current plan says is is where your growth should occur. And these are more rural areas. That's not to say that growth isn't going to occur everywhere. It's the kind of growth that we're talking about. In in comp plan terms, growth areas are really those areas where municipality is supposed to make more investments in infrastructure and water and sewer and roads and those kinds of things rather than having random roads out of an area where you said you don't want it to be as developed.

It's like a it's rooted in sort of reduction of sprawl y

for environmental reasons but also like kind of community building reasons too, right? And then how that works is that sets up this that the zoning map. So this is the precursor to that and this map and in a lot of places like you'll see sort of reflections of the zoning, you know, in a in a growth in a future land use map into the zoning. But we're not going to get into in a growth area map. in a future land use map, you wouldn't get into um radiations of of like zoning like you would, you know, down here where you have like a residential one district that's 10,000 square feet and all that stuff. That that comes as at a later time. And so what we're going to want to do eventually is think about this and then provide some guidance or even get into it a little bit to say like hey you know these zoning areas might need to be rethought a little bit but it would be setting the table for a bigger zoning question that is where Luzo would come in after this comes that

right and that's um kind of our there all of the kind of discussions around the vision ideas the goals like Goals are also aspirational sort of states of being. The objectives are measurable things like we're going to increase this or expand that or whatever. And then the actions are like actual sort of projects the town will undertake. All of that should logically flow into and make sense on the future land use map. So the middle map is what our town has now based on the existing comprehensive plan. Right. Yeah. What does the green signify? This green.

No, that

green is existing conservation. This green is this is like a rural areas. This is the shoreland areas that they're calling like I think this is more reflective of what the old, you know, like a shoreland residential zone. So, a couple years ago, the town made some ordinance changes. So, the shoreland zoning standards are statemandated standards and they really only apply to areas within 250 ft. This is way into the weeds, but that's what this kind of reflects the the past zoning. Um, that was like showman oriented stuff. And then these are conservation areas. And this would be like resource conservation. So I think it's land and garden preserve type places.

Judy, are you able to follow along? Okay. No. Well, that's a little confusing, but maybe trying to put that if you're sitting in the room. It's confusing now, too. I know. Well,

yeah, I put the uh map up on the Zoom. Hopefully, you can see that. But we're just talking about the different colors. We tend to as a an approach we tend to not all um planner consultants do this but we tend to like keep it pretty binary where there's like the growth area and then the rural area you know you do have this transitional area option but as in the future land use map I think we sort of philosophically believe in keeping it fairly simple um and then really in the zoning that follows and any sort of additional, you know, areas for future study, you can get into more details. We think it's helpful to say like this is where this is the growth area

have really more of that kind of line. Are are you saying there would be fewer colors basically?

I think so, but it's really up to you guys. And it's I mean it's not wrong to want to differentiate within there necessarily. Um and and there's no rule per se on creating your own terminology, right? You might say like this is a village um a certain some kind of village area. I'm just sort of making it up, right? Um that isn't necessarily in the growth area. And this is just hypothetical. So let's say you're like, you know what, Otter Creek, this is totally hypothetical. We don't want that to be in the growth area. um we're going to still identify it as like an important existing village and a place where we think, you know, some uh additional housing makes sense, but this totally hypothetical, but like we don't want 5,000 square foot lot sizes there or whatever any additional ones. So, like there's ways to kind of use your own terminology that makes sense to you. Um but the state does require you to delineate a growth area. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And I think over the course of the time that we're working on this, some things that are recently been passed are going to get like refined more. So, we're just responding to some of that as we go. You think refined is another word for repeal? No. I think it's got to be more clarity. So, for example, we're just wrestling with this today, but I wasn't a part of this conversation, but we had it in the office, so I'm going to bring it up. when when the state says, you know, if you're connected by water, if you are I think I'm gonna this is super simplified, but if you're in an area that's served by water and sewer, then your lot area is your minimum lot area has to be 5,000 square feet. Even outside of growth are

even outside of growth areas. So, what happens if you say, "Hey, you know what? We want to actually we actually do want to have this be a growth area and we want to have this be a growth area but everything in between should not be a growth area but we need we can connect the sewer and water lines from here to here so that becomes a growth area some things like that need to be replar

it doesn't necessarily be have to become a growth area but the state is saying you still have to allow these like you know and so this is all being still like hashed out at the legislature and this comes from this sort um belief right now that that we're going to solve the housing crisis through some of this legislation, which is very uh tricky. And there's been a lot of housing bills that have come out and things that um impact zoning and land use. And so planners are all trying to like make sense of it um as I'm sure other people too. Um, yeah. So, that's probably all really confusing, but the point is that we're going to make a simpler version of this map that helps us go through the process of changing this if you even decide it needs changing, right? It may be that you're like, this is still kind of makes sense and is working for us, but this is not a zoning map. And so, it's really important that it not be a zoning map also. Um it's sort of a different kind of more broad higher level way of thinking about it.

Since 2009 when this was put together, what efforts have been made to address growth areas? I'm not sure anything has been made to like address making this more of like a growth area, but I I think what you'll find is the zoning is is pretty reflective of what's here. The I think it was before, too.

Yeah. And that I'm maybe already said this, the purpose of the future land use map in the comprehensive plan is to essentially um validate and allow any future zoning changes that the town decides to make. Right? So like let's say you um they just have to be consistent. So if you like you create your future land use map and it's approved and adopted by the town and then there may or may not be additional zoning changes that are proposed in the future. But when those are proposed they have to be consistent with what the future land use map says. Does that make sense? And it's all I mean it makes sense logically. you're like not going to propose a lot of like high density development outside of a growth area if that

it's been mentioned in a few things that we need more town infrastructure and the last I heard is we need to repair some of the infrastructure we have now sure and then possibly we can go to that there's a lot of old clay pipes out there especially here in town. Yeah. But that comes up all the time. We need more infrastructure and it just kind of doesn't happen.

Yeah. Well, I think to build on that a little bit too, what's really interesting um just to have have a little bit of a conversation about this because we've had some village meetings and it seems like we you know, as I was saying earlier, like the villages seems to be a really common theme here. Uh and I think it's it's uh each of the villages is kind of unique, has a little bit of its own identity. And what we struggle with on the on the zoning side is to say like, well, what you know, we have zoning that's applies all over town and sometimes what's good for um Otter Creek isn't necessarily good for everywhere else. And so how do we try to figure that out? So one of the questions that we were stewing on is starting to think about does it make sense to start to think about also identifying like what certain attributes of these villages we need to just pay attention to particularly as we're starting to transition from a vision statement to like more goals and strategies. And so as I mentioned earlier one way to think about it is if we're going to use a like a a village framework we could also think these are things that are like universal for the town. like we want to make uh you know equal investments all over the town as opposed to just focusing on one village but there's also things like if you talk about you know S harbor like there are certain things that we need to make sure we're doing in Sil Harbor that are helping us achieve our vision and that might be slightly different in Sil Harbor than they will be in northeast for example I'm just making it up. So, we had maybe wanted to spend a little bit of time kind of brainstorming like what are some of the important um elements of each of these villages that we want to, you know, make sure we're just pointing out. So, I thought we just we thought we'd just sort of go through the map and talk about each of the villages for 20 minutes or so and then

maybe we'll talk about economy. What's what's interesting I think is um if Can you put that map? Yep. I'm trying to get it up here so Judy can see through should be there. Okay. Um I was thinking the other map of the was the both areas. So I think that that in reality there are more commercial areas within the villages that aren't indicated on there. The only purple is in Northeast Harbor, but Seal Harbor has a commercial area. Sville has a commercial area doesn't have commercial zoning,

but it doesn't have commercial zoning. So and so has no commercial sign. It used to. It does have commercial sign. Well, I mean not in the like not where Port Storm is, right? The historic So yeah, but that struck me too, Kathy, because I Yeah, I think that's cory either not reflective of the existing kind of bones and but also aspirational. If you have a village and you know part of the idea of being in a village is maybe you can walk to a local restaurant, whatever. That that's that's what helps keep people coming together. Yeah.

Rather than having to drive a long way somewhere else. But do we allow that or not allow that? You know, I mean, I think that the lack of commercial stuff in Ssville is an issue. I know that Pat Foster makes sure she keeps her business there because she just once it goes away it's lost, you know, like Higgins store that was commercial and then it's lost for all time. It's like no, wouldn't it be nice to have a restaurant there, you know, or something? So, I'm wondering about, you know, and this is aspir should villages have a commercial zone where you could have some kind of an establishment, a commercial establishment where people could get together? Well, I would build on that and ask like does every village on this map need to be thought that out that way? Yeah, we wanted to kind of talk about next look at the as sort of another sort of very high level way of getting at this future land use discussion and then connecting the dots between the vision and um look at the neighbor or the villages map and think about you know what are the sort of unique qualities or um the you know feeling the identity of these individual places and I know there are others right that aren't on this map there's Beach Hill and Sound Village, but um and kind of start to kind of tease apart and differentiate because we talk about one of your great comments in the beginning is the importance of these unique villages um being part of the identity of this town. So,

so the question is, yeah, we we thought we could go through each one um kind of for the rest of our time depending on how long it takes and think about that. What are sort of those unique qualities and then is there um some potent unmet potential or like you know does it need to change? I can imagine in some of these places that feeling is like there's not a lot that should change, right? Like it plays a certain role and that's okay. And then in some places there are um opportunities to think about it in a different way or opportunities for some of these ideas to be met. Does that make sense?

Okay. Each village has at least one harbor coming from Mr. Boat Boy. Well, let's you want Can we just start with a village and then just sort of work our way around until we just go left to right? whatever works. Having talked to a bunch of people in Otter Creek, um we'll start with our start right to left. Yeah. Um they have one street going through their town which is a state highway, right? Zero commercial opportunity and really isolated from the rest of the town. And yet there are commercial entities there. Uh grocery store. There are three which is seasonal. The laundry, shower,

that's a whole different one. But the inn and the restaurant or the restaurant is it's part of the Is it out now? I think they lost that, right? It's been closed. Restaurant still open. Thanks. Didn't they do some um Did they open for a day maybe? Or they're selling pastries and cheese or something? Yeah, they have to operate for at least a day every year. And I don't know if they missed it. So, can I just the conversation a little bit? What what would be some of the defining features of Otter Creek that we want to make sure that we're paying attention to when we start to think about our vision and our future land? And they don't have to all necessarily be like positive. They're just like objective. You know what I mean? So you said isolated. It's isolate. Yeah. Yeah.

I did write that down. And it's um grounded by the park. There's a lot of people who have been there a long time degenerate. It's it is Whereas I feel like there's more people that have moved into Seal Harbor or into Northeast Harbor. Even Hally Stonesville, pretty marsh has seen more develop creek is constrained. It's got very tight and the people that are there are there a town landing. Yeah. I'm sorry Mike isn't here. He was one person. He was like, I'm not doing this.

He was busy putting that water. What else? Um, yeah. I mean, I think it's quiet. It's a drive-thru for most people who don't live there. That's it, you know, so you don't really get to know it. When we did our village planning workshop, um, you know, we heard a lot about this the idea that this one state road comes right through there and that there's a feeling of, um, less safety. Sometimes people do walk. There is a sidewalk. Yeah, there's a crosswalk that is wonderful. They do have a gathering place. I mean, they do have the the hall,

which is kind of nice. Seasonal, but they are fixing up these days. And there's a playground there. I've never been there. Is that a municipal? Oh, yeah. put it as such in our inventory. Well, what what does Otter Creek have? What are some potentials for Otter Creek? Can I ask a question? Yeah. I think that I might be writing more in the notes on this than is needed to Should I just go really scanty? I think you could say a discussion.

That's helpful. I think um Otter Creek could benefit from a restaurant, a gathering place. They have a gathering place. Well, yes, but a commercial gathering place. I mean, they lost their store. They lost their post office. Yeah, I think if there was more of an atmosphere of a town, traffic would slow down because there would be things you would get the sense that there's a town there. Whereas right now, it's just houses on the side of the road. People just zip through there by Mike because you're never sure what's going to be out there.

I talked to the DOT rep about that. Like what if um you know there's like a like a landscaped median and like the road constricts just a little bit obviously within safe standards but you have like a elevated crosswalk or something where it forces you to slow down a bit and realize like oh you're passing through a different type of area. Um, and what did they say? The dreaming lady a little bit on the list. There's about plows don't like Steve Bumps cuz I also used to live across from Connor and Emerson and uh viable excuse. Yeah. Other other towns have

in like New England. Yes. In the world. Yeah. But also, um, they do have Blackwoods Campground, which I've never been there, but I assume it's a pretty big thing. I assume there's a bunch of people there all summer long. I mean, I I pick people up off the side of the road. They're walking back. I'm like, I'll drop you off on your campsite. Which one is it? And they're like, that one. It's like, whoa, there's 400 campsites in there. It's like, it's incredible. And they have programs going on in there during the summer time

all the time. Yeah. Busy. And they also have access um on the park road there's a place where the um people from um the campground can walk and get down to the um water and there's trails because my husband and I rented for a while in Otter Creek and we learned a lot about Otter Creek. Um, we learned about the importance of those radio towers. Do you guys know that history? Yeah. They're like some of the first towers to send message in World War II. You said the Feb.

I mean, there's there's a lot of interesting things that are that Outer Creek has, but you have to search for it to find it. And people who live there might like it that way. Probably hidden in plain sight, you know. Yeah. Yeah, gem. Well, that's what I was going to say. It's, you know, it's that it's beautiful and it's protected by the park because it's like that beauty is maintained.

My suggestion I would push for on in this plan is to suggest significantly that the creek is one of the one or two other areas in town. We should definitely do like a village plan because that would get to the like more commercial Yeah. use and how do you do that in a way that doesn't like change it? Yeah, really. And we have to recognize like our creek is it's a stretch of road and it's isolated and you're not going to just be like like we planners want to like keep commercial like consolidated in little nodes but like it's already its own node. It's kind of interesting to think about really and they do but it is limited. there's like not a lot of places to go

so to to develop. They do have public sewer and there's been lots of talk about running a water line there because Blackwoods gets town water from Seal Harbor, but it goes it goes on the surface. Interesting. Via the Park Loop Road. Goes backwards on along the Park Road to get there. Um but it's only a little pipe and it's just right at the top. But they've talked about what would it take to dig it up and connect that would make it very viable for more. Well, then it might turn it into one of those um growth areas.

Growth areas. Yes. Yeah. The tent water and highrise. They would hate that. All right. even more. Not that we don't want to cut the conversation short, but let's talk about Sale Harbor. I wanted to buy a house there and I got laughed at. Sorry, I'm laughing. That's somebody's garage. That's not a house. So, the question, first question we had was what are the defining features about S Harbor? Beach. Beach. Right. Somebody said that entrance to the park.

Formal entrance. Yeah. Yeah. I think the commercial strip main street. Very charming. Very cute. It is all four shops. All four. Yeah. Yeah. And that does have a post office. Yeah. Who's the post uh master master there? I went in right around Halloween and they were fully dressed. Very embracing the holidays. We had so many poinsettas in that place. Two hours a day. I only Yeah. It's hard to hit it on the right time. You get to see everything. Yeah.

And of course a good town Landing. Yeah. It is a very much a commercial spot. Yeah. voters community and it I mean it used to have much more of a distinction between everybody up on the hills and then here's the locals but now the locals that's turning over yeah a lot the kins of the hill yes bought up yes how do we and we describe that that's the imbalance of gentrif yes yes that's exactly what it is so it's neighborhoods are becoming less see around. Yes. It's pretty dark over there now. You're so gentrified.

Playground and you have a lot of hill. You have a community hall, fire department, fire station. Community hall is at the fire station. Yes. And now they have uh park housing down Jordan Pond Road as well. Um and great trails. I do feel like the mountain or the ocean. Everybody trails there. The people who do live there year round like have a they're very close, very tightknit. Yeah. The tree lighting ceremony is very special. Yeah. And this what used to be a school now is a summer school. Summer camp.

Oceanographic stuff. Well, there's an influx of people of students. I don't know how what ages it is but right in the center of the village there. Yeah. So I'm surprised nobody mentioned the library. Did you say the library? And what about the just I think a defining feature of Sil Harbor is the neighborhood like the Dumbar roads are awesome. Yeah. And there's commercial in there too. Um yes, the oil companies and um they're conditional use they are residentially zoned

which is what drives me crazy is this has never not been a commercial property the Gene Nib Nelson could like that property and my property were all one big property and from the earliest photo garage sale you know I just learned that people steal the seal Lock the fountain. Did you know that? People do weird stuff with Nobody Nobody has, but we are prepared in case they do. Cuz you have you found a foundry that will make you another seal. Correct. Yeah. Cameras on it. We do not have cameras, but it's just two bolts that hold it on. And Steve Ben looked at and said, "Somebody's going to roll up and just unscrew that thing and walk away with it." So

I think, were you telling us this? People do weird stuff with the fountain. Like get their Really? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know, take pictures or I don't know. I think the fountain's a pretty special thing. It is very cool. Let's talk about potential for Seal Harbor. Uh that I can get a seal whenever I want. Even though it looks steal the seal. Yeah, even though it looks a lot bigger than Otter Creek, its potential is about the same because the hill has seasonal water and seasonal sewer and then the other half is land and garden reserve. So, we really just have the four streets. Um,

you live in Seal Harbor. I live on Route Three right above because my husband grew up in Seal Harbor. Yeah, it's very different than when he Yep. So I I met more people in Otter Creek than I did in Seal Harbor. Went door to door. People just moving from up on the hill to down below and there somewhat. Yeah. So yeah. So it's I like the history of that area because all those were like like all of Jordan Pond houses of people who work for the estates. The people that from the estates are taking over the houses for they can't afford big houses.

I know. for children like they don't want to share which I don't blame that but yeah so you know there is a neighborhood in there that was created for yearround housing and it has covenants on it it's a wellkept secret I don't think those people want anybody else to know either because you know I don't know that we should put that in writing on the plan but no Dave it's a really good example yeah take care of your own and it worked exactly those people have been From the beginning I think about three houses have sold yeah 20 plus years. So what it's also a habitat house. One of them is yeah

but for potential for seal harbor is it um you know uh enhancing the the main street bones is it you know I don't know I'm just throwing out suggestions. I think that Seal Harbor I mean my dad grew up in Seal Harbor and I used to go there all the time to see my grandparents and I can remember going and parking at the lighthouse and the reason Seal Harbor is quaint and slow which Otter Creek isn't is because it's so narrow right there. You have no choice but to slow down and observe what's going on. Y So you think about where would you want more? I'm not sure where you

Right. I'm not even suggesting more as much as I'm saying the bones are there that and that there was more there there was yes now there's not anything there do do we just continue to like support the bones that are there and make it provide those opportunities to make sure that we're not taking opportunity for those things you know when you say more when I say more or support the bones it doesn't mean you have to be more part new development means existing development that there is being underutilized

or and make sure that places that are acting as commercial spaces can remain commercial spaces that it becomes official not just conditional. I would love to see a light commercial residential zone for Otter Creek and Seal Harbor because there is the history in both places of commercial activity and no more um and it would not disrupt the character of the town. And there was a quarry in Otter Creek was there. I didn't know that. Yeah. That's how before they had the cargo they were shipping granite. Oh, out of there. So,

wasn't it like back in here somewhere or am I wrong? It's on the cove in the back though there. Yeah. Okay. About where the E is Yeah. Seal Harbor had three garages and sorts of builders. Back to Nel's question though in terms of potential like so things like there is opportunity with a main like even though it's small right and quiet like a main street there continuing to envision that space as somewhat like commercial you're saying

yeah I mean even up like I I'd do the whole thing because I mean the people that are residents there you know there's a couple lobster And a lobsterman's yard looks commercial. There's boats and warehouses and stacks of stuff. Like, how is that any different than any other commercial operation? And I think they got the bay house. They got the bay house. Yeah. Write that down. And some of the things around commercial development is how much parking you're going to need and have to offer. And so somebody doing their own business that is not uh retail people coming to them.

Yeah. But but parking is an issue all over the town and it limits us in what we can and cannot do. Um in what way? In the way we think about parking or in the way that there's physical in the way that if there's a requirement to have parking then it changes what you can do with your property. Yeah. pleasure is also working on that issue to get rid of parking requirements in some like criteria situations. Yes. Correct. In fact, Se Harbor should have no parking in street, which that's the post office. You wouldn't be able to park in front of the post office. And you think that that

No, no. That's just like you're talking about parking problems. There's no way. That's a state requirement. Like the state no overnight parking. No, no, no parking at all because it impedes traffic. They do park there and the state has just turned a blind eye to it. But yeah, imagine there not being that not being allowed or aren't there signs that say like 15 minute parking or something like that. Yeah. So that's so that's allowing parking. Yeah, but according to the state, they'd say the cars are over the white line when they're parked on the curb there. Therefore, it is illegal. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah. park. But nobody's going to widen that street.

No, you don't. Yeah, I don't want to widen it. No, it's smaller. Northeast. Who's from there? Do you want to skip northeast Harbor given time and hit a couple? That's what I was thinking. Yeah, let's talk about Pretty Marsh. I want to talk about Pretty Marsh. What do you need? Well, I went to the for the first time a like a community gathering the Pretty Marsh community center recently and they clapped when my kids came in because there were no kids. They did not expect it. So, I don't know what we need but to me that was pretty dramatic. We have a community center and a free life and they're working on under like on

it looks like a house community center. It's on by the little horses. The little horses are gone, but yeah, it's right there across the street from that uh next. It has it has a landing. Remember those little horses are going to be a landmark kind of like house is a land just next to where the the horses were. Yeah. Not not the haunted house, but the other place that has the horses. The haunted house used to have horses. What was the um uh I might predate me. What was the nature of that gathering? Was it just like a Yeah. So, there's a community I think they're very proud. I'll look forward to learning more, but there's a community center

and it's some kind of it's incorporated in some way. Um and they have gatherings every maybe three or four times a year and they have I don't know how active it is but they've had like a annual um yard sale kind of thing that is supporting it and surely it needs more money because the building is definitely in need of some love and they're working on that. Cool. But they're hoping to have some kind of big summer thing with um big like with like um cardboard boats. Cool. So stay tuned. How do you

And they do have also not just the building. Sorry. But they have also a little piece of property beyond like there's that triangle with the big house. Um, and right beyond that, if you're going on Indian Point Road on the left, um, there's a clearing with a picnic table and access to the the water there, the estuary. Is this is this owned by like a the pretty large village improvement? So many village improvement, right? Come before the the village improvement society comes before the town and it's a third party quite often, you know, for windows or whatever. Okay, cool. Yeah. You also do a work day.

Okay. You um so we have that then we have the landing which is so key. Yes. What are the other like how do you describe living there? Like what does it feel like? It just feels like there's nobody there and especially nobody there in the winter and especially no families. I mean there are a couple other families in ours but really two I think. Maybe maybe there's somebody else there. Um, no, the fernos were the only that your family was the only one out there actually. So, it definitely feels very quiet aside from the landing and the landing is really pretty busy all the time. I was going to say Lucy Williams family must live there.

The salmon pens stone over there. There are pens out there, but I don't know anything about them. I can see something out in the water. Thought they use those anymore. I don't know. So, no, I have seen them at some point, but I everything I know about the community centers from Candy Emlin because they've been they've lived there a billion years. And she said, "Yeah, it's great. It's potluck events and it lasts no more than two hours because there's no bathroom in there. So, then they go, they get together and then they go home. There's no water. So, there's a time limit because everybody's got to go home."

So, I don't even know what else like I I mean, I wish there was somebody who knew more about Pretty March than I do, but I feel like it's pretty quiet and It would be nice for there to be a way for there to be a little bit more. We on the we issue permits for people to offload catch and there are two people now holding permits to do commercial activity down there. Now they want it here and we said well you can't have here but you can have pretty march. You have Bartless Landing. All right, I'll take it.

They're bringing fish or something from the water onto land. Yes, it's a lobsterman or a fisher person would come and these commercial buyers will come and take it from right from there. So, it's slight commercial. Um, as someone less familiar with that area, like do you feel like people are clustered more in one spot versus another or it's just generally pretty spread out? I feel like it's out. Yeah. There's some long probably your neighbor from every house like if you look through the trees and part of that is probably a result of zoning because the acreage is you have to have so much acreage in order to have a building.

And that is one of the beauties. I mean, I also don't want to undervalue that. That's what people like. Yeah. They live there because they want to be. Yeah. And it's quiet and it feels really removed. And traffic goes by there very fast as well. It does. It's not a great like like we walk down to the landing and like it's not safe. Yeah. Uh when you say quietly it but with a little more activity, like you're not talking like let's have commercial activities out there, but you're more like more community type. nice like and if there was a way I just don't even know it's it's I'm learning here I guess a lot but to make

like a few more homes accessible in that area to more yearround residents and families but not specifically families just people stay there's quite a bit of land up there okay is it during season like is there a lot of summer homes there and there's some people who like own like these five houses, you know, like that as as far as like from here. I say I haven't looked at maps. There's compounds. Yes, there's compounds. That's a big characteristic to write down. Yeah.

And I guess also like to Well, I'm looking at the map, but um so much of it is is shoreland, which is I think kind of dramatic. Big old houses. Um, okay. We have about five minutes left. He's one of the I don't know them, but they're one of the as far as I know. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think we can hit Corey before we leave and then we can jump back to the other two starboard next time?

Let's do it. Corey, Stephanie's on um campground. We could use Are we Are we not going to be doing like a breakdown of the Beach Hill? What What were the two that were mentioned as not Sound Drive or Sound Village and Beach Hill? I really feel like Beach Hill is its own thing. I think so. Beach Hill is a separate town. No, no, no. Village. But uh but who makes that decision? What's it's interesting to us because we're like this map is on the town website but then you sit in this room and you're like I see that right?

Well, we could create like and we've done this in other communities. This is a helpful exercise. So, we created like a neighborhoods map and we just say we create our own neighborhoods map and describe those two other neighborhoods. I mean, we don't have to be bound by this. Yeah. Because I think of Camp Beach Club is in Beach Hill. Where's Camp Beach Club? Oh, oh, it's in Beach. Yeah. So it does farm and be chill far. Yeah. So it does sound like Beach Crossroad has a growing number of homes on there, too. That's part of it. There's a lot of people living there. People living there. Yeah. Representation. So is Farm's Way in Sville? Farnway and Beach Hill.

Yeah, that's yeah. Yeah. I think of that road and then Beach Hill. I think of that as Yeah. And I even think of like ripples as beach area. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, let's finish with whole. That's okay. Um, we can I think revise this map even as part of this process. Yeah, they do have uh a little park there, don't they? In Huly. They have a little gazebo there. Oh, yeah. Um, there's also history, I think, is a huge part of all that. And they used to have a fish market.

Yeah. Wow. But I wonder if that was lost. Was that probably grandfathered in? So now But isn't that doing still? Oh, good. Different person. Totally different rather than dinner. Really good sourdough.

Commercial there as well. Yeah. MCM. Yeah. Yep. That's that's a conditional use permit. I mean, it's commercial business. So, I wonder must be conditional use. Yep. Campground. Is there a a gathering place like No, either indoor or outdoor like the people I know like Jock has always said he kind of wants to make sort of a public access there and kind of have that to be a gathering place. I don't he's never formalized it but um that would be an outdoor

people in happy point like I live in Harbor all these young families live in Happy Point they have this like really tight neighborhood feel they made a logo for their neighborhood they like enter the bed races as and um but they all meet at Hadley Point Beach like you know like light their Christmas trees on fire whatever like watch the sunset But yeah, having that kind of access point to the water, even if it's just for to facilitate some community.

So, I think Chuck Williams would probably let you have any of his big facilities. Take a boat out. Everybody can gather in there. If you think about it, Paul Corey is very similar to Otter Creek in that there's one way in. I mean, you just kind of Yeah. Well, not anymore because there's now the road coming up through nice property, that subdivision. It comes up, doesn't it go all the way through? No, are you talking about off of 102? Oh, the Echo Vesta. No, doesn't go through. No, it gets close to up at top of Mr. Pines, but No, doesn't go through. also got the say the history of the quaries.

I just said history but meaning yeah the quaries controversy. Yeah, we can for the most part I still think it's a walkable mostly safe walk area. There's a couple of Subarus that like go flying through in the summertime and um I know who you are. Do you guys have neighborhood parties, block parties or anything like Yeah, I never You should. I was going to say the museettes do, but I didn't always did. But um No, but there isn't really a What about potential? We think about it in the future. Is there a VIS?

They Yeah, they used to have the fish shop, so I guess that's that's gone. Yep. So I wrote down under potential that you said Jo said he wants to create some sort of access point possibly. Okay. And you know some like we talked about like there doesn't have to be some great post change for all of these places just instead of going through the important perspective like just when I say potential that doesn't mean we have to find something that we need to do. It could be just like Yeah, the potential is Well, take a sidewalk because it is a There's actually a lot quite a few people I pass walking. Yeah, because it's not on the main. It's a Yeah,

enough traffic that you wouldn't want to walk in the road. Yeah, you just have to be alert. Be alert. I just Yeah, you're just kind of alert. You don't It's a little more dangerous in the summer pot, but this time of year it's it's totally stopped doing his boat shop. That would be a phenomenal restaurant. Oh, yeah. True. Y and maybe like a public access point to the water. Y yeah, that's I mean like fish camp. So I think it's really important to like plant those seeds though in this exercise because you don't really know what the future holds. So like let's say that property did come up or something that somebody could point to like oh in this

uh effort that this committee went through and the town went through people said they desire some sort of gathering place there's Yeah. Oh not the gather. Yep. Yeah. But it could be it could still be a marina with a res but like Royal River. Yep. There's a larger conversation to be had about commercial fishing uh commercial fishing zones. What are what are we calling them? Shoreline commercial or whatever. Working waterfront uh on um

yeah commercial zoning in town. That's a whole another question which the lo might get a primer of next time we meet. But just something to think about too like because Jacquine's boatyard and I think the campground The waterfront is all in shoreline commercial. The real purpose it is. Yeah. What about MDI? Because Mike's Mike's shorefront is just shoreline commercial. Yeah. And there's a there's a reason for that. Well, Mount Der campground must be considered commercial. Uh village. No, it's not shoring commercial. Oh, maybe it is. So, it's some of it's on the water, isn't it? Probably up in the harbor.

Yeah, I was going to say, isn't that up in the harbor? It is. Yeah, little up there. That's amazing. Mhm. So, would the shoreland commercial, does it have to be working waterfront? Would a restaurant be allowed there? Not as a primary use technically as part of a marina or something like that or something, right? What's that? sell warlocks unforeseeable but I mean it's worth saying it's worth asking the question that value with the history of that as a boatyard and as a commercial working waterfront but what does working waterfront mean in this context it doesn't necessarily mean

fishermen go there like in at Bartletts which is a working waterfront in that sense but you know it's just I think those are really interesting questions because if you all of a sudden It's not shoreline commercial. Let's just call it shoreline residential. Then it's going to be a bunch of condos and you're not Right. Right. Right. Right. And they're the they're the, you know, there's something to be said for that access the access and the things that it provides. And so you want to do we want to look at those things and say, well, how do we recognize the reality of our situation and then make the zoning a little more flexible to allow for uses that might sustain the boatyard longer than what you might

Well, look at Archie's over in Tmont. They've taken a huge huge parcel of land that sadly could have become housing lots and they've made it be a restaurant and build storage and then it's a community gathering gathering place. Yeah, that's great. So, I think when we get to our, you know, proposed ideas about uh the economy or even like public gathering, that kind of thing, those are the ideas to keep in mind for sure. Yep. How do we enable those places? Yeah. Yeah. Um I want to be mindful of it says 701 on this laptop, but it's well past that on that clock. So either way,

it may be time to stop. Did we ever approve our minutes from the last meeting? No, we need to get some minutes. I'd like to make a motion to approve the minutes of the last meeting. We don't have any minutes to approve. Yeah. Yeah. Try and gather those. Yeah. For the next get some minutes. I think I have to see no public. Yeah, before we close it out, where we're headed next time is we're going to revisit the mission statement and then we're going to finish this conversation and then we're going to hit economy. Please read that economy section. Questions to ask yourselves. I I have a list of questions to ask. So, as you're thinking about it,

you know, what what have we already said about economy in terms of our goals that we want to think about when we think about our goals? Does this goal reflect uh the current goal? There's only one goal for economy right now. Is it does it actually reflect what we are talking about and the state? Yeah. What is it? The state does like suggest additional goals that we they're also very general and then we need to go we need to look through the think about the objectives and then um we already started doing this but like the strategies some of them have already been done so you can just kind of cross that off the list. So what strategies are good that we just want to keep? What are we missing?

Let it that way. And just to add on to that too, so since we're in this now like policy writing phase of this process, it'll be somewhat um uh you know, we'll go through the same questions every time. So we'll get into like a nice rhythm with sort of how we go through these um goals and objectives and strategies. We're gonna have these maps every time, too, to help keep connecting the dots. Yep. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, but there's some things that are probably missing or just need to get rephrased. Yeah, because we're dorky planners or at least I am. Suzanne's not a dork. We want the term the phraseiology is important at the end of change things.

Anyway, February 5 next meeting. So, motion to dismiss. I was going to say I'll take a motion to um adjourn. Second. All right. In favor. Thanks, sweetie. Bye bye. Bye bye. I'm feeling really bad. I think Pretty Marsh is perfect as it is, but just needs a little more life. But like no more building. I didn't represent it. I didn't represent I