Historical Advisory Commission - Regular Meeting

It's like, it's the angles. Yeah. That's all good. It's it's right there were no right angles. Yeah. Yeah. That's small.

And I was always amazed that when

the owner is Oh, no. Okay. That's right. I hadn't seen He was there. Oh, he was there? Yeah. Wow. So took us on a tour of the house. Looks fun. He took us into the. We couldn't get into that. Oh, we were winemakers, so we put this back in. It was just a 55 year old. I like it so much.

Oh, you know, fresh. Fresh.

Yeah. I want a. Or you could because my dad. There's some really good. It's kinda funny.

You. Good.

Nice color.

I'm just thinking when he was here.

My accent. Like, foxes I told you a story. With the

corral folks. Cannot we go to our shop.

Oh, really?

I am another one. So this

is right when my

Where did you get that?

You're ready.

Help me, Goodwill. Yeah. Yeah. Also, gave a last chance because No. No.

It's not right.

Second chance of you. Goodwill, it's my mother. Moderate. It's kind of a cross over Carl's Junior is now. Mhmm. I hear spider. They've got a place there.

They've got a couple of hoops up. Well, can see the.

You like a major spider. I can hear you fine.

The whole the whole building is a. Yeah.

Okay. Are we ready to go?

I'm ready.

Okay. I will call to order the Thursday, 04/03/2025 meeting of the Monterey County Historic Resource Center. Kelly

Morgantine? Here. Michael Bellis? Here. Judy McFallon? Here. Sheila Prater?

Here.

Salvador Manoj is absent, and Belinda Trilubin is absent, and Chia Sorkas? Here. So we have five present and

two absent. K. We have a protocol meeting.

Go through it a little bit quickly. It doesn't look like we have anyone called in. Hey. Yourself. New place. And Sal is here as well. Members of the public should have their video turned off unless they're presenting, and staff will help monitor and turn off video as needed. We do ask that you keep yourself muted unless you're speaking. Mute yourself on the Zoom platform. There's a mute button at the bottom of the screen, or if you've called in, you can press 6.

And to participate during public, you can raise your hand by using the right raise hand icon, or if you've called in, pressing 9. Another way to submit is to email a comment to h r r b, hearing comments at county of monterey dot gov, which is on today's meeting agenda, and we'll be monitoring that in real time.

Okay. Thanks, Joel. So this time, I'll open the floor to public comment on non agenda items that are under the curfew. I don't know if you would like to speak. Okay. Anything online? And then

We don't have any in the email inbox or online.

Okay. Giving that, and I'll close the floor in public comment. Is there any agenda additions? There

are no agenda additions, deletions,

or corrections. Okay. We have no minutes. Are we gonna be getting minutes?

I will get be getting those by the end of this week, and I you should have a couple of them, for the next hearing.

Okay. Thank you. So we go to schedule matters. The first one is nomination of election of chair and vice chair. Usually, I have a subcommittee. We need that, or do we just need nominations?

Let's just go right to it. Okay.

Let's go right to it. Okay.

I I nominate John as chair.

I get that nomination.

Okay. Mhmm. So Oh, hi, Joe. Okay. So all in favor? Aye. Aye. And opposed? Okay. Thank you. I

nominate Kelly as vice chair.

You gotta shake it up a little.

Okay. Kelly as vice chair.

I made a motion to now I nominate Kelly as vice chair second, seconded by.

All in favor? Aye. Okay. Thank you.

Sales chance. We time. Okay.

Thank you. Thanks.

Thank you. Okay.

Workshop discussion of the Mills Act. Could we change order?

This is Well, not

a good seating arrangement for a discussion. What? Can we improve this at all? I mean, considering this. I'm taking these with me to across? Yeah. Or something.

You know? I think

We wanna So I can see you. That's better.

If you guys are okay with taking

a minute

yell at you.

Yeah. That's part of

this. Okay.

Wanna, like, move it into the center where people are facing each other? Or

Oh, that's okay.

Mhmm. I think we're better now.

Yeah.

Even if Michael and Sal were on that side.

You're right.

Is that gonna help? I

think it helps a little. Yeah. Yeah.

I'll Then we could see each other.

Yeah. Oh,

he's gone. How's that going?

I was gonna go. Oh.

I'll tell you this.

That's a little better, isn't it?

Yeah. Okay.

When we took

this table out and just hold it?

It's just for short term work. I think it's okay just for a discussion. Yeah.

It's not a problem. Discussion.

But Okay. Okay.

Whatever you guys wanna

do. Yeah. Alright. So, anyway, this discussion became, some of the issues we had, and then my supervisor, you know, brought up the point where she couldn't understand, basically, the Mills Act applications that came before her as she was going well. You know, it looked like just maintenance to me was her comment.

And then we also talked about the value cap at some point. You know, if we wanna consider changing that or reapproaching that or bringing that up for discussion at some point and pursuing anything further than that. You know, my supervisor, it's my d, who would ask you. And so she was like she was comparing it to she hired if they're looking at hiring somebody for a position, you know, and then she was looking the money that they put up from Mills Act, that's what she was comparing it to. And she goes, when I look at the Mills Act and the 10 plan, it looks like it's just maintenance on any other house.

So it's kinda missing the historic part of it. You know? It's looking at the the historic part. So, that's what I'm getting from her. She's not

She's not pro preservationist? Yes. And it's a hard topic and a hard idea for some people to grasp that retaining the historicity, especially in districts and touristy areas, that brings in a lot of money.

Yep. Mhmm. Yeah.

I just went to Arizona, I spent the entire week looking at every historic building that they had anywhere. And I'm like, so and, of course, every time you go there, there is a lot of tourist activity and a lot of businesses, local businesses that are there securing their lives their livelihood from the tourists. And I don't think she recognizes that.

She doesn't. You know? And the ones that are more remote. Yeah. You know, I don't think she sees a value on that because she doesn't see a direct return.

For her dollar share dollar.

Yeah. So that that's just the issue I was facing. So I know if we need to address that or, you know, the value cap became part of our discussions too on projects. You know, I know there's you know, you get a $40,000,000 house in the debt one. Is that is that

Mm-mm. You know?

And and the house is predominant, you know, and and tourists come to see it. So Yeah. You know, how do you, you know, I mean, how do you put a value on that? Right. And and most of what I've heard from people is, you know, the Mills Act, the money that they put in the house, the Mills Act doesn't even get close to Mhmm. Touching. You know?

It does. On the ones that I've done, we've we've prepared the, you know, ten year plan and how much money goes to here or there, and I'm thinking I spend more than that just maintenance in my house. And it's not anything spectacular by any stretch. Mhmm. But, yeah, money I mean, everybody who owns property knows how much that cover costs. It's not I mean, it's maintenance. It's upkeep. It's everything.

You know, especially if you're closer to the coast. Yep. That close You know, I know people that have homes on the coast and, you know, three couple years, they're, like, repainting everything there. You know? All the metal goes. You know? Yep. Everything goes. So

So does she wanna get rid of it completely, the mill guy?

I I I don't know. She she doesn't support it, put it that way. She's not supporting it.

But is is she actively wanting to put it up for consideration for taking it away, or

is she just giving us asking us for I I just think she's, like, giving us a reason why she probably votes no all the time. Don't know what her vote is, but my impression is that's probably what she's telling us, you know, not understanding or not. Is there anything we have to be afraid of as far as her wanting to bring this back? I haven't heard of any action on her part other than her wanting to talk to me about it. So, you know, I don't know it's just more of an awareness thing or, you know, the value cap too is always an issue for us, because the cost of the houses around here are so high.

We've heard several arguments during last, what, six months or so from different preservationists or and saying that then that cap might be considered low for what they feel because we do have a lot of higher end properties. And the sad part is just the land alone is worth the price cap. Yeah. Yeah. Not even the building. Just the land alone. So I don't know if raising it and and there's the exception that Yeah. People come in through the exception and get accepted, and it gets pushed through with the exception. So, in justification. So I'm not sure if that's really It doesn't seem

to be. I've I've been trying to think through this whole issue of the cap. Yeah. And it seems that maybe one reason for setting it at that point was to kind of limit the tax loss to the county. Right. So it would be more palatable. Yeah. The fact that they're it it forces a lot of consideration on a part of an applicant or a potential applicant. And if they can justify, that just strengthens the program and strengthens the reason to do it if you have to develop

a defense.

But there was one recently, the Mark Mills one down on Yankee Point Drive, you know, where the county was, you know, recommending denial. Mhmm. And that one when you looked at the house, you know, it seemed like the maintenance part of it really needed to be addressed and the cost of that. You know? So I I guess and that was kind of smaller home.

Right? I mean, that was not a big home. So I guess, Phil, when it comes down to those tax credits and things, you know, how to have how does that get looked at? Because I know it becomes an issue for the county or, you know, gets what money or how much they're giving up. But, you know, the thing is we have, like, 15 homes under the Mills Act. So based on 15 homes versus what you know, how many homes are in the county, You know, I don't know how much that really Mhmm. Impacts county budgets and things. You know, it seems like the the value of saving the historic home outweighs, you know, any loss at that scale. So

I think how we typically present it is here is what our estimate of the annual reduction would be, and then here's what that would be over the ten year period, which is the contract term. And then we also include here's the actual reduction to the county itself. As part of the consideration is the county's finances, but another part of it is the overall loss to all government services. The county actually gets a very small share of the overall property tax.

I think it's, like, 8% or six and

8% of a very small percentage of homes and a very small percentage of the reduction Mhmm. Would be you know, if you do percentages, I would imagine it's gonna be little. So until we know pass them all, but small. We

we don't have any homes here in Monterey County.

Let me pull it up because I do have all that information. Oh, no. I have all the ones under the Mills Act, but not all the homes in Monterey County.

I'm ready to get the percentage of 15 versus

It's it's

15 homes on, you know

It's not even rounding.

I don't think that you're gonna need that's what I'm saying. Yeah. It's not infinitesimal because you can bring that out to 45 characters, but, you know, in that, it's not going to be a huge So what? Yeah. That's kinda my point. You know? Percentage. Right. Considering those prices of homes that are being sold now and that the taxes on just a standard home is We have 10 to 15,000 a year. Just a standard home.

Multiply by how many, it's just gonna be

Minuscule. Minuscule. Well, you know, in Carmel and Pebble Beach, you know, $6,000,000 is a teardown. Yeah. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. That's not a standard either.

It's

It would be more frustrating if she got the attention of other supervisors and then said, okay. Yeah. This is a great way to save money,

and it's not

really I don't know.

Mean, mean money or Listen to one of those hearings, you know, to actually know how that conversation goes.

We have 17 properties total. Most of them are single family residences, but two of them are, used as hotels.

Bringing in TOT.

Yes. I I can send you the hearings. It may be best to listen to what the supervisors are discussing themselves, but my recollection is less of the overall and more particularly for the ones over the value cap of the justification of if you have a $5,000,000 residence, should the public be subsidizing the maintenance of your residence. Yeah. Should that be on the public to do? And there are varying ways to look at it. You could say, no. That should be up to the private property owner, or you could say, well, yes. That's consideration, but this changes the incentive structure to encourage preservation. So that's the balance that they're doing.

And over the last couple of years, because I've been doing this, I think, three years, it's always each year, it seems kind of like I'm not sure, but they have approved all of the contracts that we have brought forward to them. And even though we recommended denial of the one over the value cap this last year, I think that that one set a good bar of the analysis and that they did present a reasonable justification for each individual finding. Some of the past years, I think but this is just it's a new staff's position as it was a little bit loose in addressing each of the exception criteria. But I thought as the planner that the one in the Mark Mills one on Yankee Point kind of sets a good bar. Mhmm.

And it was ultimately approved.

Because the whole point was the incentive, right, for preservation.

And nothing has come of this. They did verbally mention they would like to have an update at the Mills Act at some point in the future, but there hasn't been, like, formal board referral or anything like that. And, some of the supervisors were we may wanna explore raising the value cap, while others were a little bit more uncertain.

Do we know items like the only other there's a a few others that are in California. Pasadena, I know, was one that has mosaic. And is it worth us Monterey is unique because we have such a high value anyway, but you think it'd be worth looking at some of the different counties to see if they've recently changed their caps and

and whatnot? We're not looking even

one of us would do it. I mean

Does do we know does Monterey have a cap? They have an active.

I'm in the city of Monterey?

Do you know Belinda? I do not know. At the time I did them, that was a number of years ago, and they said no. They didn't have a cap at the time, but they may have been added one so I can find out. I can call Kim and find out.

She would know.

So I'm finding out most to the public.

I guess I have one more just suggestion of the staff is that maybe worth, if members wanna do some outreach to preservation organizations in order to actually facilitate the public tours or if we wanna work to schedule those. One of the comments that comes up is that many of these Mills Act properties are in remote or inaccessible locations to the public. So we apply this public access condition, but nobody knows about it, and nobody actually conducts the tours.

Mhmm.

And that might show the benefit of the program if there's follow through on that element.

That'd be good. Seems like the benefit recently has been the realtors.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, I teach him, Alan. You know, he showed a couple of the the, Mark Mills homes. You know, he's opened up through the AIA to to see the homes.

I don't see the road does a really big thing. I think the tours of we do a tour, and I think it's around the holidays time when, you know, tourism high. And I think you pay to go. I'm not even quite sure, but you you you get to tour quite a few homes, historic homes on

in because sometimes they even have a bus, and they take

Oh, they do? Okay.

But, I mean, part of the. Right? They all agree that isn't part of the condition that they open it up to the public at some point. And my thesis

at least once. It's not a mandatory requirement. We've applied it to most of the contracts. It'll be always applied to ones over the value cap. We had not always applied it to ones under the value cap, but they have been more recently.

But the actual doing that is unmonitored, and we don't know if they really do

Exactly.

Unchecked. Yeah. Okay. Because I remember someone who's, yeah, we'll do it during this festival. I never heard of it. So I'm like, how am I gonna know when I can go?

Yeah.

Is the language that they agree to make public once a year?

The original language is very general like that. It's they agree to make it available for a tour once a year, I think, So that is what the

county say it's gonna happen, but to it. Right. It won't stop it from happening.

Yeah. It sounds like somebody else has to coordinate it. Yeah. They'll make it happen. Yeah. Try. No.

So you were saying some of them have They like

because each contract most of the terms are very standard, but the applicant and the contract do negotiate the specifics of the contract agreement. So for the Mark Mills house, that was on, it was the second Mills Act application last year, the one under the value cap that was in Carmel Valley. They wanted to negotiate a little bit more detail on what the contract would look like or what the tour would look like. So we worked them on True. Okay.

The the county or, a third party organization would conduct the tour. We would reach out to them to give them appropriate notice of the tour. They also wanted to negotiate some other condition, like, regarding the plaque, because the plaque has certain number of square feet in the template, and they were like, that's a really big plaque. We were like, okay. You can have a smaller plaque, but we want it to be visible from the street. So

Okay.

Overall, it's almost, it's generally the same. The way the condition is structured is usually to make it amenable to a tour, but it doesn't have thou shall.

Yeah.

Shall.

I learned that there is a a large impact in some cities when they have a group of historical places on the Mills Act and or just playing historical places that are not in the Mills Act. They are using the the scanning of the building so you so the the public can see that that place is historical, and they can have an access and have a virtual tour of that particular historical place. And that creates a great impact. We're doing an experiment with the Monterrey County Historical Society where we have been scanning all of the buildings so the members in public can go into the website, and you can go and have a tour of the place because that a lot of people who don't have especially elderly that cannot have the accessibility for them, they can walk through it, and they encourage them to give a donation to the entity. And and and they're doing an experiment with the members, and they're gonna put that on their website so they can encourage people.

And at the same time, when we have something in the in the meal sack, if we have a plaque, whatever the size is, then you can have a scan that particular place, and you can walk and and and and to see the reasons why this particular place qualifies to have, you know, preservation. Yeah.

I'm okay. There are privacy issues.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Most of these are single family. Yeah. And they're major privacy issues.

No. That's why you scan it so you don't go through the house. It's it's virtual.

It's still

Nowadays with Yeah. The way that people use No. The Internet, I think you're gonna have a lot of problems with people knowing the layout of the inside.

Exactly. Right. No.

Here's a place you break in. You know? But I I see

Well, that's I do see idea. Of course, it has both sides of the coin.

Yeah. Especially if have some you have to take all your paintings down, everything else. Right? If somebody sees a nice painting in your car.

Exactly. Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. Real estate is using that particular one so they can sell their homes. You know? So

There there are house tours during the year here. Mhmm.

Mhmm. Farmhouse. Same thing. It's the

same thing. Mhmm.

Sounds like it's more a matter of organization or somebody that would kinda check. Yep.

Do you

think it would make any sense at all to have someone who regularly teaches courses at preservation conferences, etcetera, to talk about the Mills Act to the board of supervisors to do a short presentation, answer their questions.

I don't know if that would help. I don't know. I don't think it would. I mean

Or it's like if an e broke, don't fix it kind of thing. You

know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've gone through that when we initiated it. Right? This one, they had all that that went on. So I don't think now it's I think now you would jeopardize them. Okay. But, you know, the thing with tours too is usually you know, it'd have to be one of those where there's, you know, eight houses open or something, and and they're open from, like, you know, ten to two or ten to four, and and you go, you know, for the day. Because I know anytime they do a bus tour or something, they want them all close together.

Mhmm. And nothing's really close together. Yeah. So it'd have to be one of those where, you know, like, like, it was the artist, you know, where they have, like, an artist tour or a studio tour, and they're open from, like, ten to four or something. And then you just go at your own, and it almost have to be something like that. You know, you advertise it, and they could go during that period of time. It's like it'd have to be something like that. Maybe that's somehow we we look at that, and I don't know how we do that, but that sounds like it might be a way to do it.

I know if that's something that AMAP would be interested in. I don't know.

That's one potential. It's always good to have some advertisement to people who are amenable to it and not not worry about whether or taking it back to the decision makers.

Yeah. Maybe you do it every few years or something depending how many you know? Mhmm. I mean, if you don't have any new homes, I don't know if you still open them up every year or, yeah, I mean, something to take a look at. But I do think that that the artist tour would kinda be a template for it, you know, because that's how they do it. Mhmm. And it seems to make sense that way. So, yeah, I I don't know who would who would experience that, I guess, or how do we approach that aspect of it?

I'm just curious how many other jurisdictions have a cap. I'm trying to think about if we didn't have a cap at all. Mhmm. What would be the practical effect of that?

We can investigate on the Internet. Yeah.

I'm happy to start looking it up. Mhmm. Excuse me. Okay. It I think we because I think we did it at one point once before. I don't know if it was because of a presentation we did or something, but somewhere I've got a list of so that's why Pasadena sticks in my mind and maybe Los Gatos and some other places. And I think it's important for us to figure out whether we're looking at cities and or counties. I think so. I'll I'll

I'll start We know start with Monterey.

Yeah. They

have a very active program.

Do you? So do

that one I mean, I'm really wondering. I think we did the cap so that we could provide some assurance about the property tax loss to the county. Right. But if we're granting exceptions, Maybe our that argument doesn't really make

sense. Right.

Maybe it invites criticism. Some negative response. Walker House in Carmel. I know they applied for a Mills Act in Carmel. They Mhmm. Did they did they ever get that? Do you know? I can't remember. Mhmm. Because that was I don't

know either that there was discussion about that.

Because that was, like, 22,000,000 or something. Right? And then who makes that she had a client with a $40,000,000 house that wanted to Mills Act? Yeah. So, yeah, there's a range out there.

Yeah. And if and if it's like the Frank Lloyd Wright house where it's in public view and people wanna see stuff like that, you know, I mean, is the tourist value there? I I probably say yes, but you know? Because there's a lot of people that come to to see that. So Mhmm.

So, anyway, any more discussion or we just think about it? Maybe think about the tour part.

I have that Kelly was gonna look into whether other jurisdictions had the value cap. Was there any specific looking into the tour, or was it just kinda think about it?

I you think it'd be worth looking into. I mean, I don't know how we do that.

And I like John's idea of it being, like, open from a certain time to a certain time, but we'd have to find the resources that are grouped close enough together so you could get to them in that time. Mhmm. I mean, you couldn't do one downtown Monterey, and then I gotta make it to Big Sur and back. You're not gonna you're gonna hit one resource. You know? Big Sur

By region. Yeah.

So maybe by region or Yeah. Proximity kind of thing.

Mhmm. And if there's 17 homes, you don't have to do them all.

No. Every year. Yeah. Maybe they're all not working. Localized. Yeah.

They might be under construction. Yeah. Yeah. Last time,

it just

not not a good time to look at

it. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean so it'd be nice to pursue it, Phil. I don't know how we do that. But but, like, like, we're talking about, I think that the the artist studio tour a kind of a studio tour would be a good example of how that's done. Mhmm. Right. And it could be set up so it's it's something that people look forward to, you know, because Carmel does the home tour every year, and it's, like, four homes. And they know sometimes the AIA does a tour. You know? It's, four homes. Same kind of thing during a period of time. You buy a ticket. You go with your own. Right. You know?

It may be beneficial to designate a percent or a subcommittee group to just look into it and report back.

You know?

I think I not limiting ourselves directly to the 17 on the on the Mills Act, are we?

Whatever. Once I have the the agreement.

They have the agreement. Correct. Okay. Yeah. We I could easily look into that.

Well, we said there's a problem. There's another one.

Knows. Mhmm. I mean, the question is, how amenable are they to something to that effect if we could have a third party or self somebody say, okay. On a given day, we they work it out, they could open their homes for a certain amount of time for public or, you know, preservationist to review or whoever and just see if they're willingness. I mean, if they're like, no. Close the door, then we know that's not maybe that We did one. Condition isn't working as well as we thought.

Mhmm. Some years ago, we did one in our own neighborhood. And a lot of people we ask didn't want anybody in their home, but they went on the tour. And after the tour, everybody wanted to open their own.

Oh. And I'm not even really too sure. You know, I'll I'll I'll admit it. I go to the historic districts. I walk around. Rarely do I expect to get into them. Rarely. Mhmm. Most of it is exterior just being able to walk around and see them without people

going, what are you

doing with my property? I mean, that in itself is just the access to the property itself, not necessarily I'm gonna come into your house and dirty up your floors or anything.

And that could be part of the tour talking to people, especially Yeah. For the ones that are more remote if they're made accessible. Like, there's one on Partington Ridge Road without specifically scheduling something. Even if you don't even look into the house, it wouldn't happen without, like, some kind of a property or a site tour.

Exactly. Because yeah. And parking and just getting there and turning around and getting out. I've been up to seven. I'm going, I'm not going over that edge. It's a driveway. I don't trust it's there because I can't even see it over the end of my truck.

No. Road is terrifying.

I mean, you oh, you get out and you look. You know, there's a driveway there, but you would you can't see it through the hood of your car. And you're like, I'm not going over that edge. Yeah. It's a little undaunting. And then getting out, it's a Prius, and I can't even turn around in the driveway. So you're not bringing large crowds there.

No one you wanna back down.

Yep. Everybody how many people have been getting to Prius? Look.

We have the addresses to all of these places.

Yep.

Put it on and just see what works.

But like you said, you know, even some of the ones that may not be, but may be interested in showing their home, I mean, that's another option too.

Right.

Because even, like, mid century modern, you know, the one you have out there is pretty nice to look at. You know?

This could turn out to be something.

Could be.

We also have access with the GPA's birth. You can even

So, Belinda, did you wanna

Yes. I will I'll reach out, and I'll get this, 17 on the on the list and then, make some phone calls. Mhmm. I'm not afraid to do that. Mhmm.

You think you're doing great?

Phone calls, emails, whatever. Yeah. We'll we'll coordinate and just see if the availability or accept, you know, how open and free they are to to do this.

Some of them are very animate. Like, the Shell House that we visited in Mhmm. Pebble Beach. They even offer, you know, when we finish, we would like to invite HRB to visit the site. Mhmm. Yeah. So that's great.

We'll have to be alive by the time they finish this. Yeah. Well,

he will be well. The way they have, it's gonna last

I mean, that doesn't At

least a whole year, at least.

It's not gonna be done in six months, I think. Doing

a lot.

A lot of expenses.

Yeah. Also.

We put a second story on our house some years ago. And when it was done, we just dropped little leaflets in our neighborhood saying you've seen this working all this time. We had a big party, and it was amazing. Everybody can't. But, yeah, I just think there's interest out there for some. Yeah.

I'll send over the information I have on the properties and contacts to you. And Alright.

Thank you. Yeah. Right.

Some of the information about why the value cap was established, that would be helpful. Okay.

I'll look you up. I already

got my.

I think that's a good thing with the tour because it's in you know, I mean, we talk about it every time. Right? Yeah. And but, I mean, obviously, the people aren't gonna do it. There has to be, you know, a source that's gonna control all that or develop that. So Right. Okay. Any other discussion on the bill side? Okay. Let me see. Any other discussion, other

matters, anything? I was curious if you've been able to have any of those training sessions with the staff members.

That's what I was gonna bring up next. Oh, Yes. So we've got we've got we've got a presentation that I that we put together, and Philip and John are both looking at it. And the plan is that we've got you've got staff members who are planners, and then we've got the counter staff. So it's, like, two different focus focuses. Yeah. So I whatever. Okay? For for first meeting with the counter staff, because they're the ones who will see whether or not and categorize something as either needing a review or not. And then the planners, after you get a review, how do you analyze the report?

And when the the checklists go out to say, yes. This is an historical place. So we can I think the idea is first, John and I are gonna talk on Monday about tweaking the presentation, hopefully splitting it up It's a PowerPoint? Nice. Yeah.

To into two different play for two different things and also different people to give Mhmm. And then we need just, like, a couple of days for those meetings, and the first counter staff meeting was going to be on a Wednesday morning probably. And then we'll have the staff meeting either on a Thursday or Friday. And so far, we are it was going to be John and I who are going to present it. But if it works out, I for the for us to be for public to be part of this meeting, you could ask about that as well. And this will be the first one, and we're hoping we'll because there's a lot of information to go through. Hoping to maybe spread it out. Right?

Yeah. So so let me ask you. With the Fanshell House, you know, the issue became you know, the permits were issued for certain scopes of work. You know? And then it became something that that Yeah. And then that a fault of the result. We have results coming out. I don't care on this one. But so did they come in for a building permit and did planning see those? Or how how was that process, I guess?

You know, where it was segmented like that, and then there was no kinda, like you know, like, when they they submitted for a permit for the the concrete floor without really understanding the impact of concrete floor. You know, means turning out everything. Right? So so was that just over the to building, or did planning get a chance to see that or how? So

when an application comes in, typically, it's generated as, like, a temporary file or an APP or something, and front counter staff will look at it and check to see whether it needs what we call, like, a discretionary application. So, like, a coastal development permit or a use permit. If so, it gets referred to planning and a planner is assigned. If it doesn't, it stays with the permit center and the permit technician team does the equivalent of the planning review, so zoning and setbacks and things like that. Where the disconnect, I believe, happened with this one is they came in and applied for the kinds of permits that would typically be limited or issued over the counter, and they didn't elevate that to, like, a supervising planner, or planning staff, because it was historic.

And in this case, for the initial one, I don't think we had a historic report. But for some of the follow-up building permits, there definitely was a historic report. So as staff, we should have known to elevate it at that point and take a step back and see what are some of the unintended consequences of these activities. So that, I think, is a training a necessary training and then process change for permit the permit technicians. I think the direction now has is that if it's something that you know is historic, elevate it to get input either from the supervising planner who works at the counter, which is Jackie.

Yes. What's up? Jackie. Yes.

I think it's I don't see. I don't know. I think it's Jackie Nagerson, the permit center manager, Elizabeth Gonzales, or me as the HRB secretary. I won't be looking at all of them because they have the supervising planner and the permit center manager, but it's something where the permit technician one should not be issuing these kinds of scope creep over the counter permits. The other thing that we've done is we've added all of the properties we have listed on our register, or we've requested that the office system team help us add all of the properties in the local register to Acela.

That way, it's immediately flagged when somebody comes in.

Can that be added to the GIS or no?

It can be.

That's probably a harder difficult more difficult thing to do.

It's not it's not super difficult. I just need to put in a request with ITD to do that, and then it should show up as a historical it's called a historical site in the GIS layer, but that pulls up in the parcel report. And we do have that, I believe, for most or all of the historic properties and then also ones that are in the context statements, like the agricultural resources have been added in there.

Okay.

It's just I think that Acela is the first point Step. Yeah. That most of them

When you do the training I know this sounds weird, but when you do the training with counter staff and the planners, is that something that potentially others could like, I I would love to go to it, because I kinda know how they process things. And some of the questions I get back on these applications prior to actually giving a permit number, I'm like, okay. Why am I blind? Do I see it? But they don't see it. And so sometimes I have to ask them. I'm like, did you look here? And they'll either acknowledge it or go, oh, I understand it differently. And so it's how they read it and see it. And so I would love to go to it if that's a possibility.

But knowing it's an employee staff training thing, that might not be acceptable. I don't know. Uh-huh. I'll ask. Because, you know, they have limited space and time and all that stuff.

If it's board members, why not?

And and if it's board members for the especially for the HRV, that's one of the things to be able to to meet all

of us, we can

do that. Just figure out if got enough time. Like I said, and if it's a staff counter staff, the meeting's at nine 08:30 in the morning. So Yeah. It's, like, the only one one barrier. And then I think the other thing is that what we were planning to do is that if it's printed someplace and there's a name that says tour houses in Arc is a historic structure, it's in the the Acela, which is the Right. The parcel based information. But then there's still a lot of places that are they're at least 50 years old that aren't listed anywhere. That's still a criteria. So it's gonna be It's like the first and I think the plan is gonna be the to tell the counter staff, the first thing we're gonna ask you to do is math.

You know? Because you're gonna how old is this damn thing? And if it's over 50 if over 50 years old, which is really, like, 1970, which is as old as your parents, you know, that's kinda getting them to think differently. Correct.

Because they'd go 50 years old. All these aren't 50 years old. I know. Amazing. I know. They are so many.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's like that's a shock. That's a shock because we're thinking, you know, Neutra forties and fifties and whatnot. But but that's one of the first things as I think if it if it's if it comes up on a on the on the research somewhere, I think people see it. But if you if you don't see it there, it doesn't mean it doesn't have potential. It may be nothing, but you still have to that's a box or a checklist thing that you gotta check.

Because there's another one we lost as historic too, which is the the rock house on Carmel Point there. Uh-huh. Because we we went through a long thing with that. And then finally, after months going out there and working on that, you know, became had lost its integrity. So and that was done by no permits or, you know, permits hidden behind or no permits hidden behind the fence. You know? Mhmm. And, you know, where they got a permit for one thing maybe at some point and but things were just done without people knowing

It is easy to go to the building department, though. And if you are less than informed, you can easily go in there and say, oh, yeah. I'm just replacing in kind. Okay. You're out the door. You're running down the street, and I can resign an entire house under a replace in kind. And That that really, it doesn't trigger anything in some people's heads. It really does.

But see that that language doesn't work unless because on that one house I'm talking about Carmel, you know, they said replacing kind. And you look at the fence that was there and what they're putting up, it was not in kind.

I know. But some people's interpretation of replacing kinder is different than I would say ours. But I've seen it a lot. And not just county jurisdictions in the cities because they call me and go, come on. Come on here and look at that. And I'm like, that's wrought iron. That used to be wood. Not even close. The siding is stucco. That used to be, you know, batten board. That's not in kind, but you'll be surprised how many times those happen. And and it's unfortunate, but it happens.

But it's it's the language on the permits when there's nothing to substantiate what replace in kind means. Correct. You know? Because they said, you know, it's it's a wooden rail with a rope. You know? And they say replace in kind, but then that's all it was was language. Right? Right. And then they're doing something completely different. Correct. So unless there's, a diagram to say replace what replace in kind means sometimes.

I I get it. I'm just saying that when they come into the counter, you're getting an architect or a or a designer or an owner pushing their agenda to get a permit. And that poor little technician sitting there going, I guess it's okay. And that's where I'll be honest. There's a lot of pressure at that counter. I sit and I watch it, and I'm just like, back off. They're just doing their jobs. Just they're asking questions. I have to wait for a supervisor? And I'm like, the chair is, like, maybe 10 feet behind that partition.

It's okay. They'll Yep. But, yeah, if you have to wait more than five minutes, I don't you know, I I don't like to be down there because I I bring a book. I just sit back and read. But some of the conversations you hear, it is not a great they should give them combat pay because they really do face off with some really

It's a very difficult job.

Difficult people and less than yeah.

Less than diplomatic.

Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. I that's all I'm just saying. It's a tough position to be in because they just want them gone. They're getting yelled at, and they're just like, just check yes so I can let them go.

So You know, I've had clients It's hard. Would tell me that they've gone down. They yelled at that counter person, and they go, man. Like

You're not gonna get anywhere.

I know. It doesn't get you anywhere.

It doesn't help. So That's one of

the points what we wanted to make too is we wanna make this as easy as possible because, like, one more thing for me to have to do to tell this person they're not gonna be happy with and just how can we make it quick and just part of the whole process.

Just Right. Go on your day. I think

that that's really important, and I think that that's where I gotta set aside some time in order to make the resources centralized and easy to access because if the training becomes you need to look at this context statement and then over here at this list and then also in this zoning layer on GIS

that you can open over

in this book. Yeah.

And plus somebody's asking for something over the camera being very pushy. That's how things get messed.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

But, yeah, if it was on a cellar,

that would

be that would take a

lot of pain out of it.

Sometimes when I'm talking to applicants, it helps their frustration. It eases their anxiety when I say when I say over fifty years, they're like, fifty years? What do you mean that's historical? And it's like, fifty years was where we start thinking about whether it is or not. It's not. Yeah. This is a tangent. I'm sorry. But You missed. To publish.

That's how we get down the road.

At some point, I wanna I might wanna send out something to our historical consultants regarding phase one reports because when a property doesn't have any significance, the expectation for a phase one report is usually that it's, like, two or three page letter report that identifies why it's not significant. I have a feeling that sometimes when applicants go to the consultants to get historical reports, they're getting quotes for, like, a full DPR level analysis for something that doesn't have significance, then that is in turn causing pressure at the front counter because it's like, I have to get this whole report.

Makes sense. And they have

to do and and, you know, for the historical preservationist, it's, the historical, qualified historical consultants. It's not as simple as going no. It's not. Write a letter. I mean, they go to the Sanborn maps. They gotta they've gotta hit their there's a certain amount of research they have to do. And I was like, oh, yeah. What? It's just online. They're like, no. I've got a call. I've got a micro fish. It it's not sometimes easy for them to get the data either. Yeah. Because there have been some structures. I'm like, there's no way that's historic. Look at it. Come on. And they're like, oh, no. That's the original house.

First house that ever had electric. And and I'm like, really? That's where we're going with this? First house with electricity. That's that's a big thing. And I'm like, okay. I'm good with it. But it does take effort on their ends. It's not a simple little like, a structural engineer. Yeah. That beams load. We write a letter. We're done. It's it takes much more than that.

Yeah.

Mhmm.

But maybe not the full DPO two fifty four two fifty three. Yeah. You're right. I understand. Thank you.

Well, thank you. Mhmm.

So we can find hopefully, we do this sooner than later. I know John and I are gonna talk on Monday and figure out how we wanna split it up. But then other thing is to find out whether or not we can invite the board to the meeting or meetings, which we wanna do, find out. I'll I'll figure that. I can ask.

Don't think if you can't.

A quorum of the board is it would need to be a

public gonna say we'd have to make it a public meeting. So Yeah.

If if you wanna attend, I don't think that's an issue.

Not that. And that would even be on Zoom, so we couldn't get around it that

way. Nope.

But I know we're gonna but we will have all of this information. The presentation, at least, will be given to everybody.

Right.

You can report the presentation. Oh,

okay. You could do that. Yeah. Or we can have up to three board members. Right?

Whatever's easiest. Yeah. It's not like I'm gonna find out through practice how it worked. Right?

Because, I mean, we go through the permitting process and go through the same process. Right?

So Mhmm. Yep. What about recording the training or the meetings for future staff, you know, so they can look at it and Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good idea. Hopefully, it'll reduce training. But

Yeah. Hopefully, if we do Goes off road.

He's like, okay.

We're gonna get rid of this food forever. You know,

it just turns into a

we've had training seminars before. I'm just we've went way off the rails here, people. We're here for this, and we're way over here. But I'm sure John and Kelly will pull it back in.

We'll try

to give it

we'll try. We'll

We'll rein it in. Okay.

Okay. Anything else again?

There was a CEQUA training that was the two sessions. I don't I don't know if Kelly was there. I know I had to do it remote once. Yeah. And one part of it was kinda like, oh, slapping me in the face going significant. If if in fact you find a demolition or a property is gonna lose its integrity, and then they're gonna come through and demolish it. How does that apply with CEQUA? And you can't do a negative deck. You can't you've gotta go through the whole EIR process. And if the building's torn down, that's significant, period.

And they say the actual production of a video and doc photo documentation is insufficient for

It's a mitigation. Yeah.

For mitigation. That does not constitute mitigation by any stretch. And I'm like Yeah. Paint of a fine a fee to put funds in for his historical preservation in a fund to assist other properties is not mitigation because it doesn't mitigate the damage to that one resource. And I was just sitting there going, oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh. There was a lot of and then demolition through neglect. They did bring that up or, it was put it put it this way. I'm not sure if some of our projects somehow got pushed through without that type of level of review and or that level of mitigation.

Because what they're saying too is that if you when you can't mitigate it that way, what you do is that it you would have to get into the secret document to a statement of overriding consideration. Right. Which is, like, the the ultimate last step that you there's nothing else we can do about it. I'm just gonna kinda throwing your hands up.

You Do remember what secret training that is? Because that's not always how

Oh, that was through, California Preservation Foundation.

Yeah. That was a two part service.

So how the secret guidelines read is that it's like documentation is not always adequate. So it's

Oh, this one, they were very firm. Documentation is not a mitigation. Point blank. Not and I'm like, oh, but what if no. Zero it was, like, very clear, and I'm like, oh, who are these people? They're lawyers and planners who do most of their work in Southern California as it pertains. But, yeah, that they were very firm on. That is not mitigation. And I'm like, ugh. Break that down in bold letters. Not appropriate.

It's not

And there was there was a case a couple of years ago about fees where, yeah, it's exactly like you said, it's like the fee preserved a different type of resource and wasn't directly related to the loss of that kind

of resource. Correct.

But that's come up many times in conversations. Right? Put money into a fund that will protect other historic or Yep. You know, other things.

And And video, yeah, video documentation and put in a you know?

Mhmm. Yeah.

That's a no. And I'm like

Let's just do an EIR every time. That's so easy.

Hey. Yep. Yep. That's exactly what they said. When in doubt, do an EIR. And I'm like, these guys must write them like crazy. But, yeah, they nobody wants to do that, but we understand understand that's that's the we you know, if there's a question you're gonna be facing a lawsuit, just do the EIR. Mhmm. And the EIR has to be substantial enough to support, and that's where they're saying the EIR's are end up in lawsuits too. You know, they don't do that.

I'll send you because it came out of it. This is one of the things they attach it. Some it was a memo from LA, the regional planning from, like, six years ago. And what does it say? Blah blah. Just had it. That documentation is not is not adequate to

Clearly reduce it from to a less than significant level or something like that.

It was right there. Was then I flipped it Yeah.

To be smart. Pulling it from memory, so you're you're far better

than that. I was gonna be really, really smart

and tell you where it

came from, and then I lost with the specific set. But it said the documentation is now. They're talking about phase one. But, anyway

I think we're a little bit off Yeah. Agenda.

No. I just thought the training was it was an excellent training seminar.

I'll see if we can find it and send it send it around, Teddy.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Because that's because you were but you asked. You started it. You asked. I'll find it.

For department update, all I had was that for the next regular meeting, we have rescheduled the application. K. 1240293 was continued to a date uncertain. It was the residence that the design approval for alterations to the tea House, which

is The what?

There was a post to do the house built in 1951.

That's the one we argued I argued with Ken series report where they wanted to bring the addition forward. Okay. And and that wasn't our judgment, and so when I went out there and came up with another option for him. Mhmm. So supposedly, they took this other option where it's on the side.

And this is the only corner of the house you could really see. Right?

Yeah. The one where they were doing that addition in front. Yeah. Yeah.

Spark house?

No. It's only landscape deal. The

home. Okay. But, you know, what usually, when they say the rear, right, it starts at the rear and then moves forward. But what they did is they started in the rear starts on the rear and then moves backwards. But what they did in this case is they started in the rear and move forward. So I didn't think that qualified as a rear addition. But I think we came up with a decent solution form, so we'll see what they came up with. Because it's all white to the other side of the house, and it's single story. So okay. Any other comments?

No. Just so I I found it. The section. It says it says it talks about the different mitigation measures. I sent it to Phil already. It says documentation for archival purposes, drawings, photographs, displays, following the standards, you know, for HABs. Typically, the measure does not mitigate impacts to a less than significant level. But if it if it's something, you know, however, mitigation measures that are feasible must be proposed. So you're supposed to talk about it, but close, but no cigar. That's what I think because that's what I remember. So K.

Anything else? Okay. We got our that's gonna be our main meeting already.

I will the stuff we get, we'll send to to Phil to send to the rest of the board on Mills Acting, that kind of thing.

Yep. And they'll they'll go into a situation. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Yay.

You'll send me the contact information on those, or do you want me to research it?

I will send you everything I have and can scrounge.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Because I have all the stuff because the recent ones from the ones that are, like, ten

or so years ago. Might not have correct.

Okay.

I can

just go with them. Your turn.

Appreciate it. Thank you, everybody. Thank you.

Thank Thank you. New chairman's.

I didn't mean that the phase one is sort of or it is easy.

What was that?

I didn't mean that the

phase one No.

No. I'm not, but a lot of people go,

I have to

pay for that? And I'm like, can you and I've heard this. Just