Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Okay. Good evening everyone. This is a regular meeting of the zoning board of adjustment for Wednesday, December 17th, 2025. Notice has been given in accordance with the open public meetings act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building and sending a copy to the Monontlair Times Star Ledger and Herald News. This is a public hearing in which any members of the public are welcome to attend. The meeting agenda is available on the Montlair website as is a link to the township's YouTube channel where the hearing can be viewed live or after the fact. The hearing is also being televised on channel 34. And um I just have one announcement to the agenda for today. Um Oh, I'll do that after. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. I'll call the role. Um, Vice Chair McCulla, oh, sorry, Chair McCulla,

present. Uh, Vice Chair Simon, present. Mr. Church, here. Miss Harris is not present. Mr. Moore, present. Mr. Beer is not present. Miss Grant present. Mr. Griffith present. Mr. Cruz here. And Mr. Sullivan here.

Okay. And next, we have the adoption of the 2026 um board of adjustment meeting calendar. So, are there any uh conflicts with the dates uh that uh members of the board are aware of? So, I'd like to ask a question as we're um uh about to vote on on these. Uh a question has arisen as to whether or not we would be open to the possibility of of uh revising our meeting time so that we would begin our meetings at 700 p.m. as opposed to 7:30 p.m. Would that work for members of

So let me just say I mean the planning board that's when they meet at 7 p.m. I will tell you that uh a number of my boards over the recent years have moved from 7:30 to 7:00. That seems to be a trend, but it's really specific to this body. If you think you can get here at 7 o'clock, the idea being you end earlier doesn't mean you're going to go longer. Any thoughts? Any opposition to it, Mr. Cruz?

Oh, I I mean, I'm I'm not particularly against it. Uh, but I I would wonder what some of my colleagues I have like a 25m minute commute, which is pretty easy. I can't speak for anybody who might be dealing with a late NJ transit train. Well, that could be at any time, I suppose, but other things. So, I get I'm sorry. Not Yeah, I guess the motion would be to adopt the meeting schedule as presented except that the time would then be 7 p.m. I second. Someone's got to make the motion. Mr. Church, you made the motion. I made the motion. Sorry. Mhm. I second. All right. No motion is before us. Um

we can do all in favor. No, no other discussion. Okay. All in favor uh say I. I. All opposed. Any abstensions? Okay. So, beginning in that January meeting and everything at 7:00 January. All right. Thank you. So, the meeting calendar for 2026 is adopted. Our first meeting in January will be January 21st, 2026 at 700 p.m. And with that, I will announce one change to the agenda for tonight. Application number 2944 uh for the address at 24 William Street. Applicant Dimmitri Charles is being carried to um January 21st, 2026 at 7 p.m. without need for further public notice. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. And we'll now turn to the minutes. uh for the November 5th meeting. Um I didn't note any changes to the minutes except uh on page three uh line 69 made a reference uh to Mr. Waters indicating that they wanted to avoid any driveway repaving. Uh and um the board in on line 74 asked that if the driver driveway would be repaid. Mr. Waters confirmed that it would be repaid. It seemed to be a contradiction. Can you clarify that for us, please?

Yes, I will um change line the end of line 69, that sentence to say to have any additional um land or area be uh paved over as driveway. in better words. I didn't see any other uh changes or corrections to the minutes. Did anybody else see any? Yes, Mr. Griffin. Um I'd like a change on line 85 where there's a reference to Hardy Board and line 85. That would be on page three.

Page three. Correct. Uh so stated that vinyl is not a preferred material. We like to see Hardy board used instead, but I I don't want it to be a specific product. I don't think that was the intent or what was said. I think we could change it to be a more environmental friendly material um and be consistent with what the discussion was. Thank you. Thank you. Any other changes to the minutes? All right. Would someone make a motion to approve the minutes with the amendments? Make sure

I make a motion uh to approve the minutes. Is there a second? Second. And I'll just remind people about the eligibility. Chair McCullo, Mr. Moore, and Mr. Griffith, and Mr. Cruz can vote and approve on the minutes and the two resolutions for the pro the application for development. So, I think there was a motion and a second. All in favor on the minutes. All in favor say I. I. All opposed.

Okay. Thank you. All right. The next item relates to um resolution for application 2941 105 Wildwood Avenue, Victoria Monty. Um I only noted one again. There was a question on page one, paragraph three at the bottom, the last sentence, that pave uh the paved driveway will be widened in the area. Did we indicate uh to uh what the measurement would be for that?

Um I can I can go back to the plans and note the measurement of the widening. Okay, I'd like that to to be included in this. Are there any other corrections to the resolution? Um, on page two, item six. Item six, page six. Sort of a minor thing, but I think it's more accurate to say, uh, the applicant testified that a 40-inch tree is located east of the garage, and that's consistent with the minutes. Uh, I don't like the 40-in tree because it's not definitive. It's not the diameter, it's not the circumference, it's vague. So, I'd rather have the applicant tell me that it's 40 in than us say it.

Okay. Any other changes? All right. If you go to item seven at the very bottom where we talk about or interfering with the existing tree, I think we want to say interfering significantly with the existing tree because it didn't move 8 in closer. So, it does have impact. 8 in of impact is not significant. That's it. Thanks. Anything else? All right. Would someone move the adoption of uh the resolution as amended?

I'll make a motion. Is there a second? Second. All right. All in favor say I. I.

All opposed. Abstensions. Okay. Next is the resolution for application 2947 14 College Avenue. Um I don't have any uh changes to the resolution. Are there any others? Mr. Griffith. Yes, please. Um I think it's important that within this resolution that there's reference to the existing neighborhood. uh predominantly having small garages and predominantly having cars parked in the front with because they have no other choice. And it's that existing condition and that neighbor that characteristics of the neighborhood that significant significantly in influenced me at the very least with to thinking that it was okay to let this happen. And we talked about not not allowing or setting a precedent without conditions. And this struck me as a critical condition and I thought it should be inserted into the into this approval piece. It's in the minutes

which is accurate. It's referred to in the meeting minutes but it's not in this particular document. What was the condition? It wasn't a condition. It's just you just want that stated in the resolution. Correct. Yeah. Correct. Added to the findings. So I'll add small garages and parking in front of the garage in the front yard is a typical condition on College Avenue. Correct. It's in the meeting then it's pretty accurate. If we could just insert that into the resolution narrative, I think it would be more accurate and helpful for us in the future potentially. Okay. And do you have a sense as to where you might insert that?

Um likely after number four. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. And we'll entrust you to uh apply the proper language for that. Thank you. Any other one last thing? One last thing. Yes, please. Directly above it in item four is the existing garage measures 16 ft in. I believe it also would measure 9 ft in width, which is equally problematic. And we're that's again another issue about it is that small, right? So I think it's worth adding that to the that point. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. Anything else? All right. Thank you. With someone make a motion to approve the uh uh resolution uh as amended. I'll make a motion. Is there a second? Thank you. All in favor say I. All opposed. Abstensions. Thank you. Okay. Uh, next we have a resolution to retain Neglia Engineering as board engineer.

Yeah. Uh, sorry. We're actually going to table this um resolution for today and approve it as at our next meeting. The Neglia Engineering has a amendment to their proposal and cost proposal. Okay. So, this will be suspended until next meeting. Yeah. Until January 21st. Okay. And then we have a resolution to retain uh Stickle Cone Ke Sullivan and Drill as board attorney. Any comments? Motion to adopt a resolution. Motion to retain um the board attorney. Is there a second?

Second. Second. All right. All in favor say I. I. All opposed. Abstensions.

All right. One abstension. Thank you. All right. All right. We're going to turn to uh new business then. And this will be uh application 2952 629 Valley Road Tiger Pacific Realy LLC. Um and this uh property is located in the NC neighborhood commercial zone designated on the township tax maps as lot two block 2602. The variance is requested from Monontlair code 34790E uh and also from Monontlair code 34710.15 That looks like the wobbliest diesel I've ever seen. Looks pretty wobbly.

That's why you're supposed to have the engineer set that up. Not here. Good evening, members of the board. Yes, Andrew Ka Kh Wells George 1217 North Brandis, New Jersey here on behalf of Ivy Ivy Ivy Rehab Physical Therapy 620.

How about now? 629 Valley Road, block 2602, lot 2. Um, what we're asking to do is occupy a tenant space that formerly was occupied by Athleta for a physical therapy location. Uh, as many you I'm I'm hopeful many of the board members have heard of Ivy Rehab. They have 720 locations in 15 states. So, they're a well-known entity. Can I hold you for one second? Absolutely, sir. Okay. We have two things we need to do. First of all, we need to make sure that uh everything notice has been properly given and uh yes, notice has been given and taxes are in order. All right. And Mr. Sullivan, do we need to uh we're going to swear in witnesses as soon as uh Mr. Coat calls Evie? Yes.

Okay. He does not himself need his credentials. Attorneys always tell the truth. I told you that. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Coh. Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um,

so while they do have 720 locations inif in 15 states, um, they are going to be having a uh Monontlair res uh resident uh is going to be the manager or running this location. His name is Tim. We'll introduce you to him in a little bit. Um so they he currently works at their West Caldwell Caldwell um um facility and he'll be coming to um coming to Montlair where he has anywhere between 30 to 40 45 Montlair residents currently coming to his location in West Caldwell. Um, when we submitted the application, it was determined that this constituted a medical office. As the board knows, offices are not allowed on the first floor in this district. Um, so we needed a use variance to do so. Um, you're going to hear testimony from my client as well as a professional planner, Steve Liden, who are going to testify that they believe that this type of this type of use or this type of quote unquote medical office was not what they had with the the the township had in mind when they wanted to restrict offices from uh on the first floor. Um, in our situation, uh, it's not a static environment. It's not an environment where you're not seeing any activity. Um, you're going to hear testimony about how when from the streetscape you're looking in, you'll see all the act you'll see to the back of the back of the the uh tenant space. You'll see people working out, running, using the machines. Um, so it there will be it will be an active use. It will not be um a situation where there's everyone's in a separate office and there's nobody leaving the nobody leaving the facility and from 5, you know, from from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Uh these these these um their clients come in on either half

an hour hour um sessions. So there's constantly people walking in the downtown, coming going to other locations. Um they are they are they are located in several downtowns um throughout New Jersey. Uh in particular West Caldwell, Bloomfield, and West Orange are three of are three of them. So they're very familiar with being in a downtown setting like like what we have here in Mon what you have here in Monontlair. Um what we're going to do is we're going to go over there have been some slight we met with your HPC a few weeks ago. they and then as well as your planner's report um discussed how while one side was a straight the right side of the building when you're looking at the plan is a straight view back to the to the to the tenants space on the left hand side there were people sitting in the in the window and there was a wall you'll hear testimony we've rem removed the back seats where the back are to the to the window we're going to instead of having a full wall we're going to have a wall up to the a three-foot wall so that it's perfectly visible into the tenant space. We want no static energy, quote unquote, energy coming from the from the streetscape. Um, you'll hear additional testimony on that. Uh, we do also require technically require a parking variance. Um, we don't have any parking on site. Currently, there's 24 spaces required because if if it was a retail use, it'd be 24 spa uh 24. Because we're a medical office that that's bumped up to 28. So, we will need a parking technically need a parking variance. Um however what you will hear from testimony that if during their peak times this use has no more between than 9 to 11 people in the facil in the facility at a time. Um so while by code there's a there's by code we have a 28 space variance in reality this use will

be will be less intense than a potential retail use or restaurant use or other service establishment that would can go in this location as of right. Um the final variance that we um are seeking is for signage. Uh for signage, you're allowed to have 24 in lettering height. Um what we've done in the sign is we've stacked the sign. So it's IV rehab physical therapy. And it was determined that you while the letters are all under 20 or all 24 in or lower, you go from the top of the sign to the bottom of the sign. And that's where we're a little large. We're about 37 in when you go from top of the one lettering to the bottom of the bottom stack of the lettering. With that said, um we are permitted to have 45 square f feet of signage on this on this facade based on uh based on the facade length. That sign that we're that we're we require a letter height variance for is only 23.75 square ft. So as far as being over signage on the property or over you know to to to prevent you know this or these ordinances are typically put in place to prevent over signage and I think here while the design is a little different causing a variance I think what you're going to hear from our our witnesses is given the aesthetics given the the structure the outdoor structure of the of of the space uh and given the the overall size of the sign this is a better zoning alternative uh than simply having a 24 in single line sign or stack sign that that equals 24 in. Um I have as I said I we met with the HPC last month they've provided a report. Um while candidly while we discussed the use they seem to be they seem to have liked the use itself. They did have concerns can again with full cander they did have some concerns with the size of the signs. However we still wanted to come

before this board and see if the board had the same concerns as well. Um I have two witnesses. I have Brian Kennedy who's the regional operational um manager for uh Ivy. Uh he handles Northeast New Jersey. And I have Steve Leiden from Burgess Associates who's a professional planner. Um unless the board has any questions for me, I'd like to call my first witness. All right. Are there any questions for Mr. So this revised sign plan says 24 in. Right. So, what I what we've done for the Why don't we just say your your witnesses are going to address the two exhibits that you passed down, right?

Yes. Yes. You'll understand why we presented the exhibits to you when we get to the witnesses. We wanted to give you show you what a complying sign would look like versus what we're proposing. Other questions for Mr. Sorry, just to clarify. Um, so because I'm looking uh so you're looking for a use variance, a height variance for the sign, and a parking variance, correct, sir? Okay. Uh, Mr. Kennedy. Okay, while Mr. Kenny getting set up, uh, Zanna, would you raise your right hand and this is I'm going to swear you went for both hearings tonight. Do you swear to tell the truth in the two matters pending before the board this evening? I do. Just state your name and position with the township. Zanab Gazmi, assistant planner. Okay. Mr. Kennedy, would you raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board? I do.

State your name and your business address. Uh, uh, Brian Kennedy, 79 U 74 Highwood Avenue, Wald, New Jersey. Thanks, Mr. Kennedy. When you sit down, could you press your the push button on your mic? Thanks. Uh, may I begin? Yes, please examine. Uh, Mr. Kennedy, your position at, uh, Ivy Rehab? Uh, I'm the regional operations director, uh, overseeing our clinics in Northeast New Jersey. Uh what does that what does that mean in so terms essentially Essex County, Hudson County, Bergen County, Paya County are the uh clinics under my purview.

And what is your responsibility to what do you you oversee everything every aspect of the the facilities? I'm a physical therapist. I treat patients in these clinics. Um I I support the teams operationally in any way that I can. um you deal with development issues when people to get get the built get the uh correct. Okay. How long have you been with Ivy Rehab? 21 years. 21 years. Um what is what type of practice is Ivy Rehab? What type of facility?

Um so Ivory Rehab started out as a um an orthopedic uh physical therapy company. Um uh we were we were built to be a a growth model in the industry. Uh in 2016 we underwent u a acceleration in growth in which we became also the largest provider of pediatric outpatient um services in the in the in the country. Um and so that's kind of where we are today. um ranging in uh 15 to 17 states. Okay. And was I correct? About about 720 locations.

Correct. And as far as the um the ages you see, you see everyone from six years old till in our in our or in our orthopedic uh centers, which are the ones that I manage. Uh, we see your your kids that have their, you know, ankle sprains at, uh, soccer practice up through the end of life. I'm laughing because my son fractured his ankle and is now at at one of the Ivy rehabs in Hoboken. So, I, you know, that that one hits home. Um, I hope he's I hope he's being served well. Yeah, he I wouldn't be here if he wasn't. Um, uh,

I hope he's being served well. Yeah. Um why don't you just go with with specificity to this location? I mentioned I briefly mentioned Tim. Why don't you just go over the some specifics with regard to that as it pertains to a typical day of service? No. Meaning Tim, how is why is Tim coming to this location? Where's he's where is he coming from? Just reiterate what I said in the test.

Let me introduce the the council to Tim who's behind me. Um Tim is a uh a Bloomfield born and raised resident now lives in Caldwell. Um he runs a practice uh in West Caldwell uh the intersection of Payic and Bloomfield Avenue. Um he so uh we feel very strongly about uh Tim managing a business in this uh in this market because uh to this point he's currently serving a lot of the residents of of Montlair. Um, we've been looking for the right space in Montlair for for years to come and and this particular one has become available and we feel very strongly that uh we have the synergy the the the way our business runs. We have the synergy that's going to operate in a way that looks and feels very much like uh what you guys see on Valley Road every day when you're driving up and down.

Okay. Why don't you go through with with the board what type of activities occur within the within the the space?

Yeah. So um you know every single uh patient client that comes into our facility is going to have uh a combination of both you know manual and uh manual treatment interventions um passive interventions. That's your hot packs, your cold packs, your electric stimulation um that that patients are accustomed to having when they're at a physical therapy uh appointment. as well as most importantly the the functional strengthening and and um other activities that are that are pertaining to what's going to make them better on a daily basis.

So the struct structural and functional activities are give me some are there exercise machines there or certain types of machines? Yep. You're going to have your myriad of of cardio equipment. You're going to have your cable columns. You're going to have free weights. all of these things that you would see in a typical fitness facility. Um those will all be visible to the street. Um that's that's when I say we are synergistically trying to um look and feel the way that uh that the street currently looks um very active and uh energetic.

Okay. Um I've put up the the um the plan the revised plan which I guess I'll mark as a one. Mr. Sullivan, if that's okay. These were all handed out everybody. Correct. Correct, Mr. Sullivan. Okay. So, what you're handing out I'm looking at is the uh floor revised floor plan that was prepared by Elizabeth Reeves and the original date was July 14, 2025. Where I don't see a re is there a revision date on this? I don't see one. I have a one day in July 14th.

Yeah, that's the same date as the one that was initially submitted. Yeah, I guess they did put a revision date on it. Oh, here. Floor plan drawings for zone 121 2025 right above the triangle. You see it's in black. Okay. They didn't put it in the revision box. They missed. Okay. All right. So, that's that. We're going to mark that as exhibit A1. Yes.

So, what I'd like you to do is walk the board walk the board through a a typical client uh client experience. Sure. So, uh, Valley Road here are entrance. Uh, this was the Athleta Gap. And um essentially what you've got here is a reception desk in the front which is is important for uh best practice in our industry so that the patient can be accounted for as attending their session on that date uh for the purpose of their uh insurance company capturing the date of service. Um and at which point they can also review um their uh benefit their insurance benefits and whatnot as well as their scheduling with uh with future appointments. Um

so before you before you leave before you leave there y um we received a report from the HPC as well as Miss Casmi and Miss Casm had indicated that um and I'll let her speak for herself but the report stated that the right side of the right side of the of the uh front of the building uh is consistent with the streetscape in downtown um in in the down in in the district. But there was concerns with chairs and the visibility where the waiting area is. So we made some revisions to that area. Compromise.

Yeah. So what what did we do to to to to kind of work on that on that that comment?

Typically the way that all all of our clinics operate, we do not like our patients to come in our clients to come in and have any sort of waiting. So, uh, after check-in, we typically move right in with the treating therapist, and it may involve, uh, treatment interventions here on a table, which would be manual interventions with somebody like Tim or myself. Uh, and that may be over here where you're going to find um stationary bikes, uh, recumbent steppers, elliptical um, cardio equipment such as that. Um, and here is is depicting rubber floor. Here is depicting a turf area where it may be more of a of an athletic uh, treatment session. But for the by and large everything is going to be revolving around this area where the patient's going to be um going through their plan of care on a on a daily basis.

And back to I just because it was comments in both reports on the waiting area. We've removed all the chairs that had their backs to the window. Correct. Correct. And we've made we've stipulated that the wall that you see behind the reception desk that's the dark line right there that will be a three-foot wall. Correct. Belly button high. Belly belly button. Belly button high. So, and that will enable the entire

you will see the you will see the entire you know from this from street view or streetscape as you indicated before. You'll see the entirety of the business. Um you know we we obviously have an area for our our team to get off the floor, have a meal or a meeting area uh for when it's necessary. We have a private treatment room for evaluations or um you know cultural reasons why somebody may need to be in privacy. Uh we do have you know uh pillow cases and towels. Um and then obviously the bathrooms.

Okay. Um so what was interesting uh what's interesting to me you you made a brought up a comment. We're not arguing that this isn't a medical office based on zoning based on their zoning definitions. we've already set forth, but you had an interesting you were telling me something interesting about how this type of facility is looked at in in the healthcare industry. One, can you comment on that a little bit?

I'm I'm sure uh folks in the room have been to physical therapy in the past uh or presently. Um we are not what you would consider um a check-in, go into a private treatment room and wait for your practitioner to come in and and treat. We are more or less an an open floor plan. It it it is what you see. Um we tend to say we pride ourselves like a barber shop where patients are interacting, clients are interacting with their clinicians, with their um support staff and um it becomes a community, you know, because what we are is uh we're a business in which we conform to a certain schedule and on that schedule people tend to come at the same times and start to get to know one other and we can be we it's very predictable about when you're going to come, when you're going to go.

Okay. Um, what are your hours of operation are Monday through Thursday 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. typically and then Friday 7:00 a.m. to 6 p.m. Yep. Um, what would you say your peak time is? Uh, our peak times are, you know, 8:00 a.m. to 10 a.m. with the folks that like to come in, get their sessions done, and get out. Obviously then you know you go through the day where folks are at work and then like five to seven around five to seven. Yeah. And then you get to five to seven. Okay. And at peak times what's your staffing look like on site? We're projected to be two to three therapists.

Okay. Um and then how many patients or are they seeing at a time at one time? We schedule two to three an hour. Uh that's what we schedule. And then we have cancellations. We have folks that don't show for their appointments and we have reschedules. So, um we it's very predictable at two to three an hour uh if everybody shows. Okay. Um let me see again. Why don't you explain to us how the SK how all I'm assuming all there's all appointments correct? There's no correct

walk-ins. Correct. How does scheduling work? How do you work how does the how does Ivy handle their scheduling? Uh we have a we have a defined template uh where there are uh you know on the half hour you know two in one and two in one and then when somebody's shift is ending we have a full hour block and a full hour block uh to make sure that our therapists you know end up seeing roughly two people an hour when it's all said and done. Okay. Do you have any situations where you have six, seven people waiting in the in the in the reception area waiting? We do not. No. Okay. Um, is there a need for any ambulatory services? No. Okay. Um, do you play loud music?

We we don't. It's got to be conversational because it's the therapist talking to the patients and it could be talking to the patients across the room. So, um, conversational level music. Um I had mentioned this but you are located in other downtown areas correct. Sure. Do you does as a policy for the company does Ivy Rehab like being in downtown areas? Do they find it beneficial? Sure. Yeah. Okay. And I mentioned West Caldwell, Bloomfield, Belleville, West Orange. Is that correct? Those are some

some of them. Um, what have you found are the the synergies with having a IV rehab in a downtown setting with the with the with the rest of the downtown the downtown uses.

Um, well, you go to therapy and and I'm thinking about here. you go to therapy and when you're done with therapy, you want a cup of coffee or you want to uh go to your dry cleaner, things like that. In in Hoboken, that's a typical thing. It's it's just part of your of your day. Um I do think that we mix in very well um being that we're becoming one of the first um uh entry points into the health care system uh for um orthopedic and non-surgical care. So, you know, coming in and and and whe whether whe any point in the day, it does lead to, you know, greater use of the community. I think

because you have a a use that may not be prevalent in the downtown. It's now being introduced and I think so that benefits the other. Okay. Um and then you mentioned something interesting to me when we were disc prepping preparing for this hearing. You're not looking as far as Ivy Rehab, you're not looking to like stand out in the crowd down in the downtown. Correct. You're this you want to be part part of the part of the the business community there. Correct. That's how I see it. Mhm. Um you you hope you could benefit them and they could benefit you benefit you. Exactly. Um I have no further questions. questions for

um can you repeat the hours you said? Um I can. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, we open at 7:00 a.m. Um Monday through Friday. Uh se uh Friday Fridays we usually close a little early just so we get our staff out and and ready for the weekend. But uh typically our centers are open till 8:00. Last appointment would be 7 o'clock. What about the weekends? Not so much anymore. Uh we don't have we have in my region we have probably four offices that are open on Saturdays from 8:00 a.m. until noon.

And that doesn't really happen until we have a staff that can accommodate the rotation to take on a Saturday. So the space will be dark on a weekend. Right. Please please answer. Yeah. Uh it it could or it could not depending on the volume of of patients that need our services. Why don't we go with anticipated hours of operation when you're in full operation? Okay. So, let's start. I heard two different things. Monday through Thursday, I heard 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Then I heard Friday 7 a.m. to maybe 6:00 p.m. Correct. Is that Does that sound accurate? That's accurate.

Okay. And then when you're in full tilt, will you be open at all on Saturdays or Sundays? Will I sat Sundays? Absolutely not. Um Saturdays to be determined. Um but possibly 8:00 a.m. to noon as you are in other The only offices that are open on Saturdays, which are just a handful at this point, are open until noon. So 8 to noon potentially on Saturday. Yeah.

Okay. Um outside of the scheduled sessions, are there any plans to have any open or class schedules or any kind of group activity outside of scheduled appointments? No. No. Okay. In terms of the view from the street, is there any concern about patient privacy as to who's going into and out? There is not. We don't we don't have an issue with that.

So, the design is similar to your other storefronts and other locations where you see straight to the back. Correct. Okay. Okay, that's it for me. Thank you, Mr. Church. Sure.

Yeah, I have a couple of questions. How do your uh patient clients avail how do they find out about your services or how do they get introduced to you? 90% uh patient uh physician referral and about 10% um what's considered in our our industry direct access meaning um aside from your payer being Medicare if you're a commercial insurance uh subscriber then you can come to us directly but 90 by average 90% of our patients come from physician referral

okay uh the other question I have is you have contact with physicians during the your operating hours. Correct. Or you have patients in there. There's physicians available to you. Yeah. When necessary. Um what are the qualifications of your pract uh the people that the physical therapists are they licensed with the state?

Yes. uh our all of our clinicians have doctor of physical therapy degrees at this point. Um I'm one of the old-timers who have a masters of science in physical therapy. Uh but one year after my graduation, all of the academic institutions switched to a doctor of physical therapy, but we are all licensed by the state. Okay. So you're you're overseen by a board, correct? Board of physical therapists. Correct. Okay. Uh, let me know. Oh, yeah. No, that's all that's all I have for now. Thank you, Miss Grant.

Sorry. I was saying I'm um you may have mentioned but I just didn't hear but the um this sign kind of mockup says it has the 24 is not the size for the variance. I'm going to have Mr. Liden testify about the sign and we'll go over at that point. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cruz. Um I was just wondering uh so Elizabeth Reeves, she's the architect who uh created this plan. Correct. Um, will she be testifying tonight? I I didn't plan to have testify because it was just a basic floor plan. Okay. If they if the board has questions and we need to come back and have her testify, I can do that.

No, I was just wondering because um the uh this architectural plan that I have, I don't see her her signature. So, I was wondering whether or not I wanted to confirm that signed uh architectural plans. This plan is signed and sealed. the Okay, I see. All right. Um Oh, cuz I gave you an an I apologize. We have We would absolutely give you signing seal. It's not a problem. And then when with respect to the foot traffic, so the peak amount of I guess people in the office at any given time would be six. No, if it would probably be around nine probably it it nine

three employees times three if they had each had three each had three patients there. Okay. No, just I'm sorry. I was trying to earlier you said it was two to three staff and then you'd have like two to three. Oh, two to three per So what's the Let me just follow up. What's the maximum number of individuals including therapists on site at any one time that you would expect? You said two to three the therapists. Let's look at let's say three. How many people would be associated with those three therapists at a peak time? Two to three. So three times three is nine. Correct. What's the I I don't know why this is difficult. Right. Three times nine nine people

total or nine plus the three. There's three therapists. How many individual? How many patients are there? Oh my god, my math's off. 12. Okay, that's that's Yeah, I Okay, so do you agree with that, Mr. Kennedy, that you would expect three therapists plus nine patients for a total of 12 during a maximum time? Is that right? Best case scenario. And then uh just with respect to any parking or sign questions I might have, I should defer those to the planner, please. Okay, then I Yep, I'm good. Thank you, Mr. Griffith. Are we allowed to ask any questions?

Uh, there will be an opportunity for you to offer commentary and ask questions later in the hearing. Yes. Okay. Um, do you have any photographs of the signage in the area across the street? Is there any concern about the Mr. L is going to probably address the variance proofs relating to the sign? Correct.

Correct. Okay, good. Um, you said that 90% of your business is from referrals, correct? So, the size of the sign isn't so important, is it? It's a question. I would answer the question with we, you know, we'd like to have the most visibility that we can, you know, for the betterment of our of our business, uh, within the purview of the of the municipality. Fair enough. Um, would you like to see some signage?

Excuse me, ma'am. Excuse me, ma'am. Uh, you're not allowed to speak until there's an opportunity for public comment. Thank you. Um, your drawing has an existing retail space of 2,000 square ft. What is that? What What is it in the the left side? Yeah. Is this Is this 2,000 square ft? Is that part of your property or is that something else? It's a separate space. It's your space though. No, it's not. No, no. So, the It's owned by somebody else. The landlord's demising the space. Okay, fine. Yeah. So, there will be a Yeah, it has nothing to do with you. We're taking the front. Correct.

Okay. I'm just trying to make sure I understand. Good question. Um the facade and the entry vestibule and the awnings, all of that is existing to remain. Correct. Correct, Brian. Correct. Um, do you have any photographs? We've talked about looking through the windows at your facility, the gym and the exam tables and that. Do you have any photographs of your other facilities that would allow us to see what it is we're going to see?

Well, uh that's a that's a great question and um no. We were we were planning to come with it, but as a compromise to what uh the the prior meeting um concluded with, for instance, Tim's clinic in West Caldwell. This wall would come all the way up to allow our branding our to our our signage to be visible to the street, but this was not something that was uh popular. So, we've cut this down to kind of be here allowing um residents to see through. So, this would be a little different than what we've ever done before, you know, giving

but the view but you have exam tables in your other places. So it would look exactly a photograph of what they exist. Every every clinic will look like this. The right hand side is visible without you know it's just I'm just curious to see windows windows everything is visible. Yeah it'd be it would be helpful to show us what it is we're going to see just so we have an idea of what we're seeing through the window. Okay, that's all. Thank you. All right, Mr. Moore. Uh Tim has it if he'd like to he'll have an opportunity to offer witness later. Mr. Moore.

All right. So, you had mentioned that generally your practice will take place during the week, right? And at this point in time, um you have nothing on the schedule for the weekends, correct? Correct. Have you So, this business district, it's it's highly trafficked as you know. Have you thought about doing any type of a um a group activity, a shared space? uh during the weekend so that it's not empty like a yoga or something like that. No, we we don't do that.

Mhm. Okay. Um in addition on the historic preservation commission's recommendation um and you all touched on it somewhat. It says keeping all windows open to preserve street visibility and activity.

Um number four says reconfigure waiting area seating so patients are not facing the street are not facing the street facing window. So is there another type of rearrangement that you may have in mind so that there's activity at the waiting area? Mr. more. They saw the old the plan the original plan floor plan. You have exhibit A. Yeah. Th this is a this is now a response to that comment. There were seat there were seats all along here. So what's there now? Because it says waiting, right? There's no seats. There's two seats over here.

Mr. Cohart, you you'll need to take the microphone if you're going. There's no We we removed they their concern was the seating. their backs were to the to the window here. There was like six or seven chairs here. So, we got rid of all those chairs and made sure that this walls 36 36 inch height approximately so that none of the none of the people waiting would be blocking the window in essence.

Okay. So, they're able to somewhat see in to the receptionist and somewhat of the examination tables. Have you thought of any activi activity over in that area? Maybe like uh uh cycling or just because you know it's a highly visible energetic street. Um cycling where in the wall that will all happen right about here on the left side typ typically but not over to the right. I'm just thinking

well it could flip. I mean, this is how it would typically go. You know, we would put those tables behind and then there would be more activity over here. That's that's how our general layout happens. Okay. Well, just thinking in response to the historic preservation commissions, it seems as though it may they may be looking for more viability like energy towards the front of the window. Maybe. Oh, it would. It's definitely in the front of the window on the left side though, but not in the waiting area. I I'll just add I they they just wanted the chairs removed so that you could see into it. Oh, okay. Simple. Okay.

But that was just it is important that our our patients get checked in for insurance reasons and and whatnot. So that that's why we have it set up here. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. I have a few questions um for you. Um and some of them may be may seem a little redundant to questions that have been asked by other members of the of the board.

Uh I just want to go over uh the question about staffing. So, you indicated that there would be three uh clinicians that would be uh on average uh uh serving at at any given time. And you mentioned that uh there would be um uh clients uh and so perhaps that would bring the number of people in the facility to approximately 12. That that number did not include reception. That number we have one patient coordinator. All right. So you have one patient. Is that the receptionist? Correct.

Okay. and uh noting uh that you have an office, you have a therapy room, you have a laundry room, does that indicate that there would be other uh professionals or semi-professionals in the building as well?

Uh we uh we have a formula where uh per patient visit, we have a a physical therapy aid that helps facilitate um and this gets into the weeds a little bit, but it's very specific. um 0.25 visits or one quarter of a visit would be an hour of patient coordinate or patient aid. So um essentially if I can simplify that there's going to be an eight in the morning and there's going to be an eight in the evening. So potentially there could be between 12 let's say 12 and 15 people in in the in the best case scenario.

Okay. Um, how many of of the of the uh clinical staff um do they normally work the full a full eight hours or are they in there just when they're seeing clients? So, is there a sort of uh uh revolving of of Yeah, revolving is correct. So, uh, out of just fairness of schedule, we usually have, um, therapists that's, uh, schedules would be Monday, Wednesday, and Friday starting at 7 to 3 and then a flip-flop of 12 to 8.

So, so, um, as, as you probably know, I'm sure obviously you've gone to this site and at multiple times during the course of the day to have a sense of of the activity. Um and we've had other uh projects um uh in the same area obviously uh parking is a big issue. Uh and so uh have you sort of in comparison to other facilities uh within Essex County that you've noted um how have you managed parking for staff uh that have to uh be available to the facility?

So uh it's a it's a great question. My answer is that I've been living at the Starbucks on Valley for that very reason just to cuz I do not want to open up a business where for our use we can't have our patients park or get to the front door. So it's it's been my due diligence over the past 3 to 6 months to make sure that that's going to be um okay for our business. And I'm I I feel comfortable with what uh what Valley and and the the parking around the area has to offer for us.

Right. Um then um you know that I mean most of the parking at least in close proximity to uh this location is paid parking. You're you're familiar with that? Okay. All right. Um then uh looking at the facility itself uh uh I'm wondering in terms of the the windows uh facing the street uh are the existing windows that are in that uh building uh will those be maintained um for your business or will you be changing the windows? Maintained. Okay. Uh and so they will be continue to be clear glass.

Correct. Okay. Um and then um you mentioned that uh uh clients ordinarily when they come in uh they they check in and they go immediately to meet with their with their therapists. Um uh do you have clients that bring children with them as well? Sure. Okay. And so what happens with the children while they're um I mean if if if if the adult is being serviced but they have children with them they go directly to the big balls to the big balls and the big balls

located just what they do but I say that in just but um yeah you know if they were to come they would obviously wait in a chair or be with mom and dad and that would be the gym area where the big balls would be as

right. Um, and then I noticed that uh when you when you um uh submitted this uh A1 as a as a new layout of the floor plan, um there had been several changes. The office break had been moved uh to the uh south yeah to I guess to the southeast corner. Uh and uh the therapy and laundry rooms have been changed. Therefore, that sort of changed the configuration of the the amount of space for the gym area and the amount of space for the turf area. Can you just speak to those changes, please?

Um, only to try to make the most of of, you know, what was asked to be as much of an active and and vibrant, you know, uh, streetscape as possible. Okay. So, those changes do not in any way negatively impact the traditional services that your your company provides.

Not at all. No. Yeah. And then finally, the um uh the retail space that is uh located uh behind uh your facility. Uh for those um who are familiar with this space, there was um a step up uh uh uh to another landing. So all of that would be behind that wall. Is that correct? I think that is the where the demise is, but that's not my expertise. I believe that and I know what you're alluding to and I think that's where the demise is.

Okay. All right. Thank you. Let's see. All right. Are there any other questions for Mr. Kennedy? Mr. Chairman, I have a question. Mr. Koh, let me just draw your attention to that December 10, 2025 HPC report. Let's just go down through them. Number one, uh that goes to the variance request relating to the lettering size of the sign. Um number two, maintain the existing goose neck lighting and minimize penetrations into the facade. What's the applicant's position with respect to that item? Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.

Okay. And then three doesn't seem to require any comment. Four and five, I assume it's the applicant's position. They're addressed by virtue of the revised floor plan marked as exhibit A1. Is that correct? Correct, Mr. Okay. Thank you. Other questions? Cruz question. I have one. Uh yes, Mr. Church. The uh is there going to be uh parking made available for the employees or do they have to park like in the regular parking lots that surround that area? To my understanding, it's the second that you said. They'll just they'll just have to come in. Correct. And pump nickels and dimes. Yeah.

Okay. No public questions only. Yeah. Of this witness. All right. This would be an opportunity then for members of the public uh to offer comments, ask questions, I'm sorry, to ask questions. Um, you must frame uh your participation as a question uh to the witness. So, please uh uh approach uh the front if you have a question. And just so members of the public are aware, there will be a later opportunity to make comments either in favor of or opposed to the application. This is limited to questions of this witness.

Mr. Kennedy, you can have a seat, please. Well, he may be there to ask answer the questions. So, Oh, I thought he No, he Oh, they were there. Okay. Mr. Rachi, you have question. Mr. Kennedy, you may please be seated. State your name and address, please. Frank Rebecki, 398 Upper Mountain Avenue, Monontlair. Um, has demolition started on this property? No. Neither space that that you know of the No. No. Okay. So, they're available. Um, are the you mentioned that the clients or patients are ambulatory? Is that correct?

Correct. Are they fully accessible or do they have special needs as far as accessibility since they are getting rehab? Can't answer that until they come. So I don't you know the majority of our patients are fully ambulatory but they don't need they don't have big ADA type of issues. Not not typically but I can't tell you that they won't. It it's we treat who comes. Um, so can you turn the flashlight a little thing here? I'm sorry. No problem. I do that all the time. Yeah, I know. Thank you very much.

Um, okay. So, those are my two questions. Oh, one more question. Um, did you have um were you considering the the 2,000 square? Well, it's not 2000 yet, but were you considering the other space that the landlord is preparing when you did this con when the landlord was configuring this space because there was an application I think at some point before one of the Monontlair commission's or boards?

Uh, no. Within our model of of of business to to be successful, we we couldn't accommodate paying for the the total amount of space that was available. No, no. Swapping. Swapping space. Using that that area instead of this area. No, no, we weren't considering that. Would that How important is the Valley Road um facade entrance versus a Lraine Avenue entrance?

Uh for our use, I feel like the the space that you see is the is the best value for Valley Road. I think we're going to be um synergistically positioned just right for for what what we're bringing to the neighborhood. Okay. And you have minimum signage and I don't want to get into the signage applications, but um we've had an issue in town about windows signage and window. Mr. Rebecca, we we haven't this witness didn't get into the signs. Mr. The next witness will

it's about his business. It's not about what actual signs. Does he rely on signage to promote his business? You had mentioned before you testify before that you had a large wall at the entrance which you had marketing materials you use for marketing your Would you would you kindly frame that as a question please? Frame that as a question please. Would you have other marketing materials that are visible from the window?

Um, I typically not I guess no. I mean, I don't know how to answer the question. I I uh we we have we have branding all throughout the inside of our clinics. Well, a lot and many times municipalities in Montlair might be one that has regulations with regard to window signs and at this point we're not proposing any type of window signage. Let me be clear. I'm not talking about signage on the window. Oh, that's what you're referring to. No, I'm referring to signage in the window. We do have an issue with that. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

Hello. Very quickly, my name is John Frenzer. I live at 219 Lorraine Avenue. Um, we've used the term demise quite a bit about this. Could someone explain to us what the word demise means in this case and what's happening with this very large space in the back here? M M Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, that's not part of our application that my client has no control over that space. So, they're not going to speculate on what's going on with that space. Right. And that is there another meeting about this space? That that has not been presented to this zoning board. Perhaps it has been presented to another board, but we're not uh at liberty to speak to that. Oh, that's very mysterious and disturbing for those of us that live right here.

I'm sorry. It's not it's not mystique on our part. It's it's just simply that it has not been presented to us. Therefore, we're not qualified to speak to it. Um secondly, there's a lot of testimony here about how well integrated you are into West Caldwell. Your location is that at 760 Bloomfield Avenue, is that correct? Answer the question, Mr. Kennedy. Yeah, you have to answer it. Is that not a shopping center? It is with like 500 parking spaces right out front. Correct. Those are not the same thing. Those are completely different spaces. People could drive up for their therapy. Please keep it to questions. You can offer comments later.

Well, that's it there. That maybe needs to be revisited because I don't believe that that was an accurate portrayal. Thank you. Thanks. Hi Diana Marin, 242 Belleview Avenue. Uh question for you in terms of the parking. Uh you claim that you well you mentioned that the staff and patients are going to have to use either street parking or municipal lots. Is that true? Correct. Okay. Uh there as far as I'm concerned, no municipal lot is actually accessible from the front.

Is that a question? Yeah, it is a question. I'd like to know how that how that is going to be uh rectified in terms of perhaps blocking Valley Road to have patients dropped off, having patients picked up. Is that is that part of the plan? How are people that are physically challenged going to physical therapy, for example, going to enter the facility from Valley Road? I guess the way I would answer the question is it's it's up to the patient to decide if this is the best location for them to go to based on their condition, right? But if they decide that they want to go to this location, how do you envision them getting picked up or dropped off?

It's a logistic that that patient would have to, you know, manage with the transportation options that they have. Okay. Well, in addition to the patients being dropped off and picked up, uh, do you foresee ambulatory vehicles also being necessary? We don't to transport patients? We don't see that. No. Okay. What about a ramp? Where are you planning on putting the ramp? There's not a ramp available.

Well, that's a medical facility, isn't it? Need a ramp? Where's the ramp going? Well, uh, there's we don't have we don't have to have a ramp. I believe you do. Well, that's for the building department to tell us. Okay. Well, note it because you're going to have it come up. I appreciate the advice.

Okay. No problem. Um, in terms of the hours of operation, you know, there's a full service restaurant that's going next door and your peak times, as you mentioned, were evening times. How do you how are you going to reconcile people coming in and out of a fullervice restaurant and having your patients be also in and out of your facility without interfering with traffic on Valley Road? I think I would answer it the same as the last question. It would be the patient's decision as to when they want to come to therapy based on what the traffic looks like at that time.

Right. But as a resident, we're trying to also figure out if you could answer how that's going to impact the eb and flow of the traffic on Valley Road. The testimony was that there'll be 12 12 12 people 12 to 15 people in this facility at peak times and nine patients coming there an hour. But that's actually not the math because there's no there isn't. If there's a therapist and three and then there's a secretary or a coordinator as you called it and then there's aids and then there may be children.

But they're all there's more than children. Children aren't driving themselves first of all. Second of all, it's 12 to 15 people. Several of the everyone except nine of those people are staffed that have been will be there for an extended period of time. So every hour there will be approximately nine people coming and leaving that location. And you actually made the point, my next point is where are these people parking? The same the same place that if this was a Starbucks, they'd have to find a place to park. No, Starbucks actually has a lot. And you know, I I've had Excuse me. Excuse me. just pick a retail use Starbucks. It's a it's it's this this the line of questioning is being based on where a used could go in there tomorrow. They have to find parking.

Not 28 spots. We don't have to. We're not saying we need 28 spots. Uh well to Yes. If you have that many practitioners, you do. No, we don't. The code isn't that's not how the what the code is based on. Well, it is based on the fact that you don't have any parking allocated for that correct facility. And that used to be a retail spot. So the question is why did you why did you pick that spot if that was supplanting a retail facility? We've gone over that testimony. I would like him to testify. Not you. He did already did testify. Answer the question. Please. You don't. You already answered it.

No, you didn't. Answer the question. Why that particular spot? There's plenty of spots in downtown Montlair. Why that particular one? We thought it fit best for our business. Okay. Well, please rethink it. Thank you. Yes, please. Hi, my name is Suzanne Nekerman. I own a retail store at 601 Valley Road. I do live in West Orange. I was wondering that your other facilities have blinds and they're usually drawn and you mentioned here you would leave the windows open. Um, is that an accurate assessment of your ideas?

Uh, if when we have the blinds drawn, it's usually due to the sun. So, you will have at certain times blinds that are drawn maybe for the privacy for the clients. I didn't I didn't say that. That was my question. it. Well, in in the case that we have lines drawn, it's typically due to the sun. So, there are certain times like I happen to know that the sun comes over the other side's buildings from like 1 to 3 in the afternoon. Would you then have your non-existent blinds drawn? You said the windows are open. Now, are there blinds or not?

No. Yes, the blinds will be drawn when they're sun, but when they're sun between 1 and three, they will not be drawn. He said there won't be blinds. I think what I understood I think what I understood from Mr. Kennedy is that they will not be blinds. Is that correct? Correct. But all your other buildings do have blinds. Not all of our other buildings have blinds. Okay. And um I am also concerned about the parking because I have a lot of Just frame it as a question. you you can offer commentary later on, but for right now, we have to frame everything as questions to the witness, please. Okay, I'll phrase it as a question.

Um, are you aware that the parking limit is 2 hours per parking spot and then the cars need to be moved and they're supposed to be out of that lot and find another place after 2 hours? I am which would make it very hard for your employees if there is no plan for parking for your employees. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

Hi. Thank you. My name is Paulie Marzoff. I'm the owner of Amperand Interiors and Garden, 40 Upper Monontlair Plaza. So, I am behind Starbucks and I'm behind the Belleview Theater. Um, I've been there now for two years, but prior to that, my business was located at 241 Lraine Avenue. Here is a picture of 241 Lraine, which is really 237, 249, whatever, etc., etc. So, this building and here's my question. Are you aware of this building? Uh, not by the picture now.

Okay. I'm just going to ask you to take a look at that. So, that building is um Keller Williams on the second floor and the uh landlord there had uh wanted a medical facility. There are over 40 parking spaces in that building. So they Is there a question, please?

The question is, how do you figure you're going to have a medical facility uh and accommodate parking for your tenants? I mean, for your customers. U same answer as before. I think the uh clients that come to this prospective facility would have to make the decision logistically if parking is going to be uh an issue for them or if they would prefer to choose a different one. I guess the question is do you need 40 parking spaces given your use? No.

Well, the zoning board heard testimony when Mr. Prell was building this building and it was a huge discussion on whether or not this building could be built and how many spots were allotted. So I don't understand if you're coming into Upper Montlair and you want to be a good neighbor and a good, you know, community member. Um, not understanding that parking is at a premium. we all needed and that you're basically taking away a huge amount of parking spaces

for retail. So I don't understand the question is how do you feel like you're a good member of the community? Morzoff, I I think I think you need to let the planner testify. I mean this use is not a permitted use. This medical office use is a permitted use if it's not on the ground floor. It's proposed on the ground floor here. That's why they're here for a D1 use variant. So perhaps we uh wait to hear what Mr. Leiden says, their planner, and then maybe you can ask him some questions and kind of probe that at that point. Okay, I'll come back to it. Do you want this document? No, you keep it at it. Thank you.

Thank you. Hello.

I'm Holly Felber. I own Barbara Eclectic located at 594 Valley Road. Uh we're a traditional retail store. You can always see in our windows. Um at the beginning of the presentation, it was stated that based upon I guess I shouldn't even ask this is parking permitted use. We have lost many traditional retail stores in a lot of foot traffic because of that. In your experience, do your patients patronize other businesses that are located near your existing locations?

I could only speculate, but I couldn't give you any, you know, definitive answer to the question. Okay. Um, as to the number of people at any one time, you specified that your peak times are 8 to 10:00 a.m. and 5 to 7. Yet, your shifts of employees overlap from 12 to 3. So, how many people do you anticipate being there from 12 to 3 when you have double shifts? Fewer patients and overlapping staff. That's usually when we do our administrative time. Okay. I was not able to see your picture. Okay.

Because there was nothing up on the screen. I understand you changed the waiting area. So, have you eliminated all of the chairs in the waiting area? We have minimized them based on what was asked of us to do. Okay. And um how many times do you have an elderly patient who comes with a caregiver and the caregiver would have to sit in the waiting room? That does happen. Sure. Okay. And um how many locations do you have within five miles of 07043, which is the zip code?

Um without an exact radius, we have West Caldwell, Belleville, Bloomfield, and probably Clifton would fall into that. Okay. And since you have those four other locations within five miles, what is the importance of putting a location in Montlair? Uh we believe that uh residents of Montlair want to see uh the best-in-class physical therapy. And have you ever met anybody who doesn't live in Montlair who tells you they avoid Montlair because of the lack of parking? No. Well, no, not not to me.

Okay, then you're very lucky because I've heard that for 20 years that people sumearily dismiss Montlair. They don't come to any of our restaurants, any of our stores, any of our services. So, is there another question that you'd like to ask, please? Yes. Why would you not provide any parking? It hasn't become available to us. There's no there's no parking on this property. Okay. No parking on the property. Thank you. Thank you.

Hi, I'm Colleen Kelly Whitam. I manage the business at 219 Belleview Avenue. I'm also a resident of Upper Monontlair. Um, do you ever have car service drop off for clients coming to physical therapy at your any of your locations? At some we Yeah. And where would you suggest them to drop off if you're right in front of Valley Road and there's no sort of way to to do that without disrupting traffic? We haven't proposed that for this clinic. We do that in Hobok and in Jersey City. And those are the only locations you allow for car service, drop off, pickup for your clients that are receiving physical therapy.

Those are the only ones that I oversee. Yeah. That you oversee, correct? That he provides the the car service he's talking about. Okay. And do any of your clients in any of the other locations arrive via a car service that you have not provided that have to be dropped off because they perhaps can't drive themselves? I would assume so. Yeah, you would assume so. Where would you recommend the best place for them to be dropped off for your facility? The same place someone who's being dropped off at the Starbucks. You don't drop off, pull up to the curb and drop them off. Starbucks is not there. It's two blocks. I'm using Starbucks as a as a example.

Right. But William Sonoma but between Lraine and Belle, there's laws of traffic and there's violating the laws of traffic, right? So, you can't hold this you can't hold this business accountable and different than any other any other use that's there. You can't you can't drop them off. Excuse me for a moment, please. I I really would like I really would like to ask the the public to with to uh refrain from uh commenting. You will have an opportunity to comment later on in this hearing, but at this point in time um we're just asking questions of the witnesses. So I did Yes, you're fine. I'm just

phrase it as a question. Okay. Okay. And it is a really important question. Please. It is an important question because that intersection, the portion of the Valley Road between Lraine and Belleview does get congested. We have several schools in the area, kids crossing. Just keeping it framed as a question. It could be an issue and I I feel like I I'm not clear on how many drop offs, pickups it could be on, you know, in front of your property, but I think it would be an issue. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, Mr. Um, go ahead, would you like to call your next witness, please?

Yes, Mr. Liden. Yes, Steve Liden. Yes.

Mr. Leiden, good evening. Would you raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth on the matter pending before the board? I do. State your name and address, please. Sure. Name is Steve Leiden. That's spelled L Y D O N. And our address is 25 Westwood Avenue, Westwood, New Jersey. Okay, Mr. Leiden. Um, for the board's edification, your professional background.

Yes. Uh, Ruters University graduate many, many years ago. I have, uh, been a licensed planner in the state since 1987, possibly 1988. Um, I have worked, uh, both at the regional level and at the municipal level. I was a planning director for a Morris County community for about uh 10 or 11 years and for the last uh 25 years I've been working at Burgess Associates. I am a licensed planner. I also hold certification by the American Institute of Certified Planners and uh my license is in good standing. I work with municipalities. I work with private clients like tonight. And um

have you had any experience with downtown downtown plans? The being the municipal planner for downtown plans? Yes. And before I before I get there, I'd like to say our offices in Westwood are in the downtown Westwood Avenue. Um the main drag is Westwood Avenue from Broadway to Kendrick Mack. We're right there. We're right next to the fourstory Bank of America building if anyone knows Westwood. Um starting uh in the aftermath of Hold on. Are you through qualifying Mr. Light? Yes. Qualifying. Yeah. Mr. Light, your license is in as a professional planner is in good standing. Is that correct? Yes, it is. Is the board accepting Mr. Leiden as an expert in the field of planning? Yes, we will. Thank you. Proceed.

Thank you. I have testified here, but it's been a while to tell you the truth. Um, one of the things we uh we've noticed in our office, especially since uh I'll call it the end of COVID optimistically is um you know that generated a lot of changes to the way we all operate our lives. A lot of us started working from home until my wife kicked me out of the office at home and told me to go back to the office. Um I was spending too much time in the refrigerator and mowing the lawn apparently. Um we've also changed how we shop. Uh you may have noticed an Amazon truck or two on your road in the last day or two. Um brick and mortar shops are hurting badly because people aren't leaving their homes for work and and uh they shop on their phone. So we have done uh we work in about well we're municipal planners for about 30 municipalities. Some of them are sort of bed and breakfast or bed and breakfast are bedroom communities um like Harrington Park. Others are more akin to to Montlair. Um and I would say those are Westwood, Summit, Oakland has a downtown. You may have missed it, but Oakland does have a downtown. Um and we have been asked to um revamp the zoning ordinances uh a great deal in some of our more um downtown oriented communities because they were ne noticing that there were no cars on the road and there were no customers on the sidewalks and they saw their their retail base shrinking. Um and besides the loss of ratables and uh sense of identity, there are also issues with employment. There are also issues with uh just having a a center. So we have been asked many times uh in the last few years to rewrite ordinances. Um and one of the things we've done is and we were

guilty of this earlier. We had a similar situation to a lot of into one of the clauses in your um commercial neighborhood zone is that you allow offices but they're limited to the second floor. Um that has been that those kind of ordinances uh and limitations are being uh removed from ordinances um for a couple of reasons. One, we're all getting older. A lot of our downtowns are older. We haven't really built a new downtown in a while except maybe Jersey City. So they're smaller buildings. There were residential uses above stores. Um a lot of them do not have elevators. In fact, most of them do not have elevators. So um that becomes a problem for having a medical office upstairs possibly podiatrist or a doctor who specializes in older folks. Um, so because of our aging population, because of the availability of space downtown that could not be leased, we've changed a lot of the ordinances to allow for offices downtown. Now, not maybe sometimes not throughout the entire downtown, maybe some areas, but it is something that we have um been changing. And um one of the things that offices do do is they do in often like a doctor's office or a medical office or a uh uh a professional office um they they kind of sap the vitality. Um in our office for instance, a lot of us are working from from home but the ones who do come in come in in the morning and leave in the afternoon. We don't really create a lot of vitality downtown. Um and that's why I think your ordinance had that limitation. But when the mo when the mortar and bricks are empty, and by the way, I did a fairly extensive uh walk of uh upper Montlair today, there are several vacancies and some of them I can't tell you when they became vacant. Some of them look like they've been vacant for a while. Um so you're not

immune to it. At least Upper Monontlair is not immune to it. Um so so that's one trend. The other thing I I want to point out is we are going to get into I'm going to get into the um the basis for why this board can grant a use variance later on. But I want to suggest to you this is a soft use variance. And to prove my point although proof is probably not good to demonstrate my point if you look at the drawing you have a hard time finding a medical office. Now medical office is only allowed in this zone on the upstairs floor and I want to briefly uh give you the definition from the Montlair ordinance as to what a medical office is. The office of medical practitioners including but not limited to medical doctors, dentist, veterinarians, chiropractors, podiatrists, psychologist and licensed therapist. So yes, we have licensed therapists. So we meet that back part but it's the office of a medical practitioner. We don't have an office of a medical practitioner here. What I'd suggest to you and we we are going to do the D1. So don't get me wrong, you're not going to kick us out and tell send us to the planning board. But if you look at what's permitted in this zone, it's personal service establishments. That's personal that's uh permitted. You see, I would suggest to this board that's really that term better captures what it is that we're doing. There are no doctors who work at this uh facility. They might consult by phone or by teams or Zoom or some other uh electronic uh device, but there are none that work here. And the office that's on the plan, as was described to earlier, may be for a person who has a specialized privacy need, or it may be for the staff to consult briefly about a patient who isn't doing as well as they thought, or it's even used just, I think you mentioned, for uh lunch breaks. So, it's

not a medical office, but if you think about it, it's a personal established. It's a personal service establishment. Traditionally, those have been barber shops, hair places, skin places. And you might say, well, your guys need a license. Well, someone who cuts hair needs a license from the state of New Jersey. Someone who does I can't even describe what the term is. Someone who works with skin skin care needs a license from the state of New Jersey. So I'm I'm really thinking that this easily could have been determined to have been a permitted use and possibly if we had presented it differently maybe we would be in front of the planning board. Um so that's that's the first thing I want to say. The second thing and this is based this is not on my outline but based on the comments that I've heard from the public this is a building according to your tax records that was built in 1926. I don't know if it ever had parking. It certainly doesn't today. So, any use that goes in this building, unless it knocks the building down and becomes a parking lot, which by the way is not a permitted use in your zone or provides parking for an adjacent property, is going to need a parking variance. And you heard Mr. Cohart over here at the beginning of his testimony. He doesn't testify. At the beginning of his introduction talked about how it used to be a a a use that was occupied by a subsidiary of the Gap and that was everyone determined that was a retail operation. And they for retail operations based on square footage of this size you need the size of this building you need 24 parking spaces. Well, they moved in. So I'm assuming they got a variance for 24 parking spaces. Now, if you say that we're a personal service establishment, we probably don't need a variance because there's already 24 granted on the prior use. If you say we're a medical use, the

calculation's a little bit different and it goes up to 28. But that doesn't mean we need a parking variance for 28 spaces because this this site and variances run with the land has already gotten a variance for 24 spaces. So, at the most we're talking about a variance for four spaces, but there's been a lot of commentary about where a user of this building is going to park. He's going to park where everyone else who doesn't have a parking lot on Valley Road parks on the curb or in the municipal parking lots. That's why you have municipal parking lots in this area because there's a lack of onsite parking. Is it a big issue? It's a significant issue. I always tell my downtown town towns, when you don't have a parking problem, you have a problem. The best problem for a downtown is to have a parking problem. That means people are coming there. It means it's vibrant. This site, unless they tear the building down, is never going to provide parking. So, I think the idea that this is terrible because it's not providing parking, it's really no different than maybe 70% of the the buildings and uses along Valley Road that also don't provide parking. And I don't hear any move to close those sites. So, I think the parking can be an issue, but it can be managed and I think it can be addressed just like it's being addressed today. And by the way, when I came in and parked, it was 11 o'clock this morning because I figured I should know what time I came in. That was 10 o'clock, excuse me. Um, I parked on Valley Road right in front of the site. Now, I know the site's not developed right now, but there was plenty of parking on Valley Road and I drove around before I actually stopped. Um, I drove on the side streets. I drove through the municipal parking lot. Parking was not really for this time of in the day today at about 10:00, it wasn't that big an issue. So, let me get

on to my my outline. Um, I don't think anyone's identified it by block and lot, but the subject site is block 2602, lot 2. I was a zoning officer for many years, so I I uh need to put that on the record. The lot size is 5,627 square ft, which seems to be conforming for uh the zone. You do have a requirement in the neighborhood commercial zone for a minimum lot size of 8,000 square 8 or 6,000 square feet. Um, but that's for new buildings. Building built in 1926, I think it gets pass. Uh, that's also true with the lot width. We have about 40 ft of lot width and that just happens to be the requirement for new buildings in the zone. Um, we're also over on impervious coverage, but all of these issues were addressed um when the GAPS subsidiary was before the board. And as variances run with the land, we really uh we just we're just noting them. We're not really seeking them right now. So, I told you earlier today I I did a uh a walking tour of the upper Montlair area. I also did a driving tour. Um, there's a pretty substantial variety of land uses including many permitted uses as well as some non-permitted uses. And that I don't know how they got there. They may have gotten there by uh being grandfathered. They may have gotten there by by grant by being granted a variance. But um I would suggest to you that the energy and vitality of of the upper Montlair district is supported by all the uses that are there whether they are um a permitted use or not. um the the variety of uses is I believe is a good thing and it's also consistent with the Montlair master plan which I'll get to in a little bit a little bit further in my testimony. Um so right now one of the most important and difficult objects besides affordable

housing uh that planners are dealt with is how to maintain vitality in shopping centers, office parks and downtown. And I think your master plan gives some pretty good guidance. It talks about variety and it talks about changing some of the standards you have. And in fact, understanding the master plan, understanding that things need to change says that on page four of your master plan, maintaining the status quo policy will only make Monontlair less competitive, ultimately leading to an erosion of the qualities that residents and visitors appreciate. Now, I've been doing this longer than Andrew has. I've been I got my license back in ' 87 or so. That's the first time I have seen that kind of language in a master plan. Master plans, planning boards are boards of the mayor. They're always upbeat. They're always optimistic. They're always, you know, the sun doesn't stop shining. Here it says maintaining the status quo policy will only make Monontlair less competitive. Now, I haven't been here in a long time. I don't think too many people in front of me or behind me will want to see Montlair be less competitive. So, what the master plan is saying is things need to change. Um, so you need a variety of uses. you've got them in the upper Montlair area and sometimes we need uses that we don't particularly desire because they can contribute to making a place viable and successful and and you see that where um in a lot of places so change is good. Um there's also a significant number of storefront vacancies in the upper

Montlair uh area. Now, I didn't particularly count them, but I did notice some of them look like they're they've been there a while. And maybe that's what the master plan was referencing when they talked about we need to change the status quo. Um, and in general, my takeaway was the proposed uses along Valley Road and Belleville Road and Lraine seem to complement the existing mix of uses. Um the proposed use would seem to complement the existing mix of uses while not detracting from any of these existing uses. There are no other and this is important for you Mr. Sullivan. I think there are no physical therapy uh facilities in the area. So I would tell you excuse me I'm testifying. Thank you very much. There are no other physical therapies in the area. And I think when we get to the um the the special reasons there is a need for this type of special of uh physical therapy use. Um so basis for approval uh the property is unique both to its size configuration and its existing development pattern. a 5600 foot building, no parking. Uh, one of the significant factors is that the app is proposing no exterior construction, just seeking to occupy a relatively small vacant storefront. We could put almost anything in there and it really wouldn't upset the status quo too much of Upper Monontlair, but we're proposing something that will be a benefit. Um, I believe this site is particularly well suited for the proposed use. There are several observations that are worth noting. No expansion of the building is necessary. Building fronts on an important commercial roadway. And although the site does not provide parking, there is curb park curbside parking directly in front of the building. And there's also parking in the back of the building, municipal parking. You also have

Montlair Plaza um on the other side of um Valley Road. Um and then the type of use is also important. You heard Mr. Kennedy testify about how everything is scheduled. Some uses and food stores, coffee shops come to mind, have rushes where they can overwhelm the public infrastructure. They can overwhelm the staff. They can overwhelm parking if they have it. And there's no way to really control that because everyone wants their coffee and bagel at 8:30. Gotcha. So, it's going to be busy. It's going to be crazy for an hour or so. Everyone wants to come to dinner at six o'clock. it's going to be busy and crazy. This is a controlled business where everything is done by appointment. Even the the 10% of the CL uh the uh the clients who aren't a direct referral from a doctor um are scheduled by appointment. There is no walk-in um operation. So what that mean and there's no group operations either. So what that means is everything is pretty much flat during the course of the day. Yes, there's a peak early in the morning. Yes, there's a peak at the end of the workday, but during except for those two peaks, it's it's pretty constant and it's controlled. Um I believe this application can be approved as it advances the purposes of several purposes of the municipal land use law. And I guess I put purposes in there twice. Sorry, Mr. Sullivan. Um the purposes it promotes it guide the appropriate use of all lands so as to promote the public health safety and general welfare. This is not a medical use in my mind but it's one who works with doctors and it does improve people's health safety and welfare. Um I'd also point out that in the master plan it didn't suggest tearing down buildings that are up but have no parking. So yes, we have a parking

variance, but allowing this building to be occupied will carry out uh it will help promote the public health, safety, and welfare. Another goal of your master plan is to of the municipal land use law is to promote promote sufficient space in appropriate locations for a variety of uses. We do have people with injuries. They may not be ma they may not be able physically able to get to a second floor. Most of the buildings in upper Montlair do not have elevators. if they have a second floor. So, this is an appropriate way to allow those people, injured people to get serviced um to promote the conservation of historic sites and districts and to prevent urban sprawl and degradation of the environment through improper use of land. We're not building a parking lot which leads to more runoff and leads to lesser quality runoff. We are in a historic site, but we're not doing anything to the building. contrary to what the historic preservation commission has suggested and in fact we're taking their suggestions to heart. So I think we promote that purpose of the municipal land use law and then to encourage the more efficient use of land. Right now you have a an asset which is not producing anything. So if this application's approved um Ivy rehab goes in there and a vacant state a vacant site becomes uh useful. Um, and then one of the things we're supposed to do as part of either the negative criteria or the positive criteria, I've never really figured out, Mr. Sullivan, which way it's best to handle it, but there are a number of township goals and objectives from your that are reflected in your master plan, which is application supports. Um, and I've already talked about maintaining the status quo will lead to ruation of Montlair, so I'll skip on. But under heading 1.4 township goals, Mon, this is an important one. Monontlair seeks to

ensure a variety of land uses that pursue a balance of commercial land uses. I'm sorry, lost my line. Seeksk to ensure a variety of land uses that pursue a balanced mix of activities and vibrancy. That's the goal. I think we can all recognize a balance of commercial land uses is important for numerous reasons. A business district of nothing but Dunkin Donuts would fail. Obviously, have no interest, no variety, and you only need to go to one. you don't need to go to 30. So there are there is a mix of uses on uh valley road. This would be adding to it. Your master plan says that's a good thing. Um it seeks to generate and nurture dynamics that support economic vi viability viability. Uh this goal is related to the first one with regard to commercial districts. economic vitality and viability is critical and right now this site is is uh dark and is not contributing. Another goal is to encourage private development which is what we're proposing that maintains the scale and character inherent in the diverse and historic neighborhoods of the township. And we're certainly maintaining the scale because there's no proposal to expand the building and there's no expand there's no proposal to provide additional parking which by the way in most towns would get you run out of town but that's okay. Um the subject site is located in the upper Montlair train station neighborhood. Um, under transit oriented neighborhoods, there's a a comment, these neighborhoods should be developed with a full mix of uses in the area to support the needs of both residents and visitors. And we would be achieving that goal as well. Under 2.0 townshipwide strategies. There is a recognition that Montlair's parking ordinances reflect suburban parking standards that do not account for the transit infrastructure constructed in Montlair.

And I've as someone who's read a lot of master plans and a lot of zoning ordinances, your your parking variant, your parking standards come right out of suburban governance. So what this master plan goal is suggesting is that your parking standard should be reduced. So we do need a parking st uh variance of about four uh spaces but if that goal was uh implemented I suspect we probably wouldn't need a variance for parking at all. Now I I think I mentioned the building

before before we get before we get to the s before we get to the sign I have a couple of questions. I just wanted to just wanted to when we you know first things first I think it's important that we they we say that the standard is would would being proposed be a substantial detriment in a substantial impairment correct yes okay because that's a def that's those are the words in the statial okay so my question to you and I you know I would like you to comment for the board that here we are proposing something that is that has been deter is determined to be defined as a medical office. Correct.

Can you explain to the board why what we are proposing, the type of use we're proposing is not a substantial impairment of that ordinance?

Sure. It it's one where um it's by appointment. The appointments are generally I believe uh Mr. Kennedy spoke about 35 45 minutes in length. So that means unlike our office where we come in in the morning and leave in the afternoon, you're having a constant turnover of those nine patients that are that are being seen by the three um the three therapists. So there is a turnover just like in a in a store. Um shoppers come in, they make their purchases, they leave. Meanwhile, three or four other shoppers may have come in or someone goes to the Starbucks you mentioned. They get their mocha, whatever it is, and and they're out, but meanwhile, there are three people behind them in line. So, we're more akin to a retail operation. And that's why I think we fit the definition of a personal service establishment much better. And uh someone mentioned barberh shop. um barber, you know, you come in, you get your barber shop, you leave, meanwhile, someone else is getting cut. It's not an all day thing. There is a constant turnover.

But what about also the fact that, you know, and and correct me if I'm wrong, the one of the reasons to have this prohibition on the first floor is you wanted to you wanted to also prevent static or not no no activity from the from the space itself. Correct. Is that what what will be occurring here? No, because people will have appointments that last 40 45 minutes, half an hour. They come in, they get uh their treatment, their therapy, and then they leave. And but what about the window? The window act, the window visibility, seeing the activity going on, you know what, you know, we we'll say window shopping. You walk by, you could see the activity that's going on in the building. Correct.

Correct. Like you can typically see with a retail operation. Yes. Um the other thing I wanted to talk about was this issue about parking. Yes. Okay. Um 28 spaces are required based on the code. Well, let's just take it if it was a medical 28 28 spaces would be required. Yes. Um but you don't stop the analysis there. Correct. You don't stop. Parking standards are not they don't take every possible consideration every possible situation in consideration when they come up with a parking standard. Correct.

No, you usually use you create wide groupings of uses and you stick them in there. For instance, retail is often one standard. Um and yet retailers are very much different. So it it's a broad uh it's a broad category if you will. Um, someone long ago decided that doctor's offices generated a lot of uh, parking and they have a typically have a high standard and and what we're saying here is at peak times, not all throughout the day, at the peak times that there will be 12 to 15 parking spaces utilized somewhere in the in in in the vicinity of the the district. Correct. Well, if everyone drove, if everyone drove, and I'm not sure that's a let's say everyone drove.

Okay, then there would be about 12 to 15 at most. Could a retail h could it be is it would it be I don't want to say likely. Is it possible that a retail use could go into this space as of right not need board approval and have a a a larger impact on the parking availability to this town?

Yes, absolutely. Restaurants are probably the worst consumer of parking and restaurants worse than that. They come in at typical morning periods if it's that kind of a restaurant or evening periods or throughout the day. And restaurants are tremendous consumers of of parking and a restaurant is a permitted use in this zone. So the the and just so I I want to be clear because this is brought up a lot by some some members of the public and they're questioning. The purpose of this board is to analyze what the what the the spec specifics of the use are and whether that 28 parking space requirement is even necessary. Correct. And if it's not, that's why you grant variances.

Correct. And then as a as a as a result if the variance is granted, you are bound by the testimony you gave regarding the intensity of the use. Am I correct? Well, businesses are allowed to grow, but if if uh you put limitations on it, let's say on the number of therapists, I think that would be a valid limitation. Yes. Okay. But you can't tell McDonald's they can't sell more. I meant more when you're for use varian.

Yeah. You could you could you could limit the number of therapists at this office. Yes. So, I'd like to like to ask if you could uh move uh more quickly to summation so that we can I don't want to shorten your opportunity to to make a clear case for why um the zoning board should approve this application, but I do want to make sure that we have ample opportunity for the for the board to be able to pose it questions, for the public to be able to also uh pose their questions and make statements. And we have other applications as well today.

Yeah. I just want to be careful about cutting Mr. Lighten off. I know he there's still an exhibit that hasn't been addressed yet. And I know Mr. Lighten hasn't gotten to the sign varants yet. So we need to do that also. Okay. So Mr. Light, I apologize, Mr. Chairman. The sign the sign. Why don't we discuss the signs now? The proposed sign. Okay. Well, I see it as one sign. Um it is it's really a wayfinding sign. Um, and I say that because you're allowed to have somewhere in the vicinity of 38 square feet on this building.

45, excuse me, 45. The applicants only proposing 23 1/2 square ft. So, the size of the sign isn't an issue. What really becomes an issue is the design. And if you look at the road safe exhibit, which was submitted, it's not an exhibit, it was submitted in your package. It's uh done by Road Safe Branch 1 1007. Um it's dated September 10th, 2025. Well, hold on. The the the exhibit that was handed out tonight that we're going to mark as exa exhibit A2 is prepared by Road Safe and it's got a date of December 17, 2025.

All right. I'm not so worried about the numbers on the drawing uh for right now. Uh Mr. Svin, what I'm really would like people to look at is the building. Uh, and there's a there's a photo of the building and upon that they have superseded superseded superimposed the um the sign that they would like. But the building itself is very interesting. It's divided vertically into it's divided vertically into three somewhat equal um components. You have the two outside ones that are um that have the windows and have an existing awning over them. And then you've got the middle section which is narrower and is uh dominated by the entrance door. And it's also flanked by vertical elements, architectural elements. So it really creates a three piece uh facade if you will. And yes, they could have put the uh the sign across all three of them, but because it's wayfinding, it seemed to be more important to focus it on where the door is. And once you do that, it seems like it doesn't make a lot of sense to put signage over the two windows, which are fixed and aren't moving and above awnings. So, because that's the smallest of the three areas, in in fact, it's only 8 ft wide, the idea was to put the sign there. And because they're dealing with a relatively narrow area and because the signage is dramatically under what the what the ordinance allows and it really does serve for wayfinding purposes. Um it seems to me that that's an appropriate location for the sign and it would uh be approvable under a C1 hardship because the design of the building is not something the applicant's proposing to change. He's only a tenant after all. and B, it would

also be uh a C2 variance because as a wayfinding sign, you do need a certain size and this is only about half of what the ordinance would allow and um I don't think there'd be any ne substantial detriment because the awnings that you see in this photo are there and I would sus now the sign's not there but as I looked as I walked up and down the street today I suspect those awnings are going to um limit to some degree people's ability to see the sign. So you say, "Well, why don't we just put the sign up higher?" Which is what a lot of operators would do. It achieves the one horizontal element of it. It it reinforces the one horizontal element of this building and that's the top of the awnings where it meets the building. It's it's if you will flush with that or aligned with that. So, I think there's been a lot of thought going into how this building presents itself to the street and how a wayfinding sign should be located either over or very close to the door and how it should relate to other elements of the the building. So, we we may need a a slight variance for sign height, but I think it's appropriate given the physical constraints of the building and the fact that the sign is so much smaller in area.

And I think the purpose of the of the other the exhibit that we provided was to show what a 24 inch stacked sign would be look like in comparison and being only about a little over nine square feet. Correct. Which Yes. which gets pretty pretty small. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, now I'll go to questions from the board. Um, we'll begin with Mr. Simon. Hi. Um, you said you went today and found parking around 10:00 a.m. Yes. So, now you're aware that the neighboring storefront is also empty

and it's under under reconstruction. is they're adding two stories to the upper floor. Yes. So that's not a normal situation once both businesses are complete. So chances are you would not have found parking so easily. I hope I would not park find parking so easy. You also stated that um any space that goes any business that goes here is going to be challenged in the previous retail space um would have required that parking variance. Correct sir. But do you think the retail customer is the same as a medical customer?

I tend to think the retail customer is more foot loose and fancy free to use a dumb phrase. Um unless it's a specific retail store that somebody really wants to go to. Most retail stores don't fit in that category. Although I do acknowledge there's a lot of unique stores along uh valley. Whereas if if someone is going to IV rehab, um they're either going to go to this IV rehab or another one. Um but they're probably going to be more um uh loyal to at least the brand. So I think they would tend to travel longer than a retail customer for a parking space.

So you think someone who's physically limited. Yes. Would travel more. Yes. Because this is not just a a rehab facility that deals with, let's say, leg and lower back issues. Somebody could have a shoulder problem, an elbow problem. Understood. Um, and so I did not ask the client how many have mobility issues, but certainly for the ones that aren't don't have mobility issues, I think they would walk uh further than a a retail customer would.

Understood. But this business has a higher chance of having a client with mobility issues who couldn't be able to travel. So, even though there's parking in front and back, don't you think it's a more likely scenario that they would need a closer drop off position?

Not necessarily. And and I'm not sure I accept the idea that um someone going to a restaurant. Let's say I'm meeting a friend for coffee or, you know, something and we're meeting at a restaurant. Um we're we're going to go there. Um and if we have to walk two blocks, I'm going to do it. So, I I think I think people will walk and especially for a a a therapist, if that's who you're seeing, I think you would you would park and walk. Okay. Right. Um, did you visit the location on the weekend?

No, I did not. So based on your statement, how will the fact that the pro proposed hours or lack of hours on the weekend will add to the energy and vitality of this area? Well, a lot of places are closed on Sunday, so I think we can focus on Saturday, not on that block. And as far as Saturday goes, um once they're up and operating, uh they would reassess that and they would hope to have Saturday morning hours. But all the businesses on that block are open on weekends in some part planned schedule. Yeah, it's there. Not the bank, sir. On we on Sunday. Bank is open on on Saturday. Sunday. On Saturday. Well, yeah, but I was saying

Okay. I said the weekend. So,

but the but the proposed hours have no weekend hours. So again, how does that add to the energy and vitality that you stated was so important for downtown area? Well, I I do know some banks close at 12 on Saturday. I know Valley National does, and I bring Valley National up because they have a site in Valley Road. Now, I don't know. I'll be honest with it because I support to tell the truth. I don't know if they close at Saturday at 12, but the one in Westwood does. So, I assume that's corporate corporatewide. Um the fact that they're closed on Saturday um would relieve some of the parking issues. So, I think there are different ways of looking at the same issue. I asked specifically about your statement about vitality and energy.

It would do it during the week. It would certainly not do it while it's closed. Okay. Thank you. Well, I I would just point out that I'm sure there are restaurants that are not open in the morning. And I'm sure there are that only have evening hours. They don't do dinner or lunch and dinner. So, they're closed in the morning. So, they're not contributing to the vitality at those hours. OP businesses are closed at certain times. So, I you know, hope that hope hopefully they're successful and they're open on Saturdays, but not every use is open from 7 am to 11.

I'm not asking for a 24-hour operation. I'm just going based on the planned hours and in relation to the other uses on that block. So, to ask for Well, that's the end of my questions. Thank you, Mr. Church.

Yeah. Um although the uh HPC has stated in their comments that this type of business is a is allowed on a ground in a ground floor establishment. My feeling is as I'm listening to the comments and so forth is that this building isn't appropriate for that. Um I don't think that there is enough u uh access for people with physical problems. Uh although physical therapy offices don't always handle the very very disabled. Uh but they do handle people elderly people and uh people that have uh walking problems. So I just don't I although I would agree that uh this is a usage that's allowed in a on a ground floor. I don't believe that this building, this office front, this sto this storefront is appropriate uh for that because of the location the the

Let me just make I mean let let's just make the record clear. I mean the the HPC in their December 10 memo said that

the physical therapy use on the ground floor is acceptable and does not negatively impact the historic district. the the use that they're proposing is not permitted by our zoning ordinance and that's why they're here. So, they need a D1 use variance. Okay? If this use was on a second floor, they would be fine. But because they're located it on the ground floor, that's why they need the D1 use variance. Then, with respect to the parking variance, the previous use was retail, which has a parking requirement of 24 spaces. If a different retailer came in, they would not need a parking requirement. The reason they're going, they need a parking variance is the parking demand calculated by the ordinance goes from 24 to 28. So that's why they need a parking variance even though there's zero existing on the site and retail has existed previously on the site.

Okay. Mr. Turt, may I may I just want to make clear when you said that that there's no access. What do you mean by access? So I could just take some notes. Well, it's not easy access is where I are you speaking about parking or walking into the building? No, the parking park. Okay. Thank you. Are you talking about proximity of parking? Yes. Okay. Thank you. That's all I got. Miss Grant. No questions. Mr. Cruz. Yes. Good evening. Uh I guess I'll start with the sign and then work my way backwards. So, um when did you say you did your drive again? This morning. This morning. Okay. It was more than a drive. I got out and walked the neighborhood.

Okay. So then you like Valley Road, Lraine, Belleview, Park Street, Cooper, Union Train Station. Yes. By the Upper Mountain. I'm not sure. I got all those uh roads in. Uh so basically like from So like did you go past the Starbucks or before the Starbucks? Past the Starbucks. Okay. Down to the post office. Post office. AMP. The Acme. I'm sorry. The Acme, man. Yes. Lost got me. Um. All right. So So you pretty much like walked up and down Valley Road. Maybe not like the side streets like

I did I did some of them like I walked through the parking lot behind this building, came out on the side street and walked down. Um I walked up Lraine Street um beyond the last there's a couple of um converted dwellings. Okay. That office apparently office uses. So I walked up to them to see how they integrated into the neighborhood. So you got a good look at you got a good look at the neighborhood. I I think so. Okay. Now, so then when at least for the sign then though, um would you did you notice any buildings that had observably similar type signs in terms of size or or or shape relative to the building?

Yeah. Uh no, and I thought that was a good thing because you don't want all the signs to look alike um because you can't read them. Uh shopping centers have tried that. All the shopping centers have the same, same color and usually within four or five years they're all different because corporate logos and stuff like that. So, um I didn't pay much attention to the to the signage. I looked at them to see where I was looking at and the type of uses, but um I certainly would not find this to be uh a large sign and your ordinance doesn't because it's it's about half of what your ordinance allows. You would you would find the sign to be I guess unique though in terms of its uh uh orientation. Yeah. And that's good because that helps catch your eye, which is what a sign is intended to do.

Right. Now then, when it comes to the lighting, um, yes, I would assume that since you're not here for a a waiver on lighting, that any lighting fixture that you have attached to the sign is not going to it's going to be in compliance with our our ordinance. Absolutely. Yes. And I think there was a recommendation about the gooseeneck lights, which we've agreed to maintain. Yes. All right. Now, then when it comes to the parking, um, I take it that the applicant did not offer a parking study as part of the submission. That would be correct.

Okay. So then uh and then I obviously in your opinion you believe that there's ample parking during peak business hours to accommodate the the needs of of uh this project. Well, I will say I was at the site for about an hour on one particular day. Um it seems like it's not quite the holiday season yet. Um it's not a holiday. It seemed like a good day to go and it was also not one of those bitter cold days of the last few days when you would have said, "Well, nobody was out because it was freezing." It was fairly warm today. In fact, I didn't wear my gloves. Um, so I thought today was a pretty normal in quotes day.

Yeah. Um, and are you aware of any like maybe communications that the applicant had with any like uh uh the neighboring uh businesses who had spaces that they could perhaps like allocate or sell or rent to? I think parking spaces alone there may be uh things that people wouldn't give up, but I'm not aware of any uh correspondence between the applicant and other property owners about using of shared parking arrangements. Okay. Because I mean when you came here today, it wasn't that you needed to fit 24 spaces. It was just that you needed to fit four according to the uh um what you're asking for. It was a variance for the four spaces, not the entire 24. Yes. Okay.

Um and then first thing um oh yes, the use variance. Um so the three terms that I heard was medical offices, retail services, and professional services. Correct. Those those are the kind of three terms you were juggling around to describe the space. Mostly personal service. Yes. Personal service. Okay. Um, which is not defined in your ordinance by the way. Correct. Yes. Okay. Um, uh, no further questions. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I have one question. Yes, Miss Grant.

So, the, um, the gooseeneck lighting, the, um, recommendation was to keep it. And the light, um, the sign you're proposing is illuminated. So, would you use the actual gooseeneck lighting? I don't think you need it. We're showing it on our drawing. I'm not uh I'm not I don't know the answer to that question. Because I think the recommendation was to use it for the aesthetic. Um cuz I did notice some of the other um stores, you know, they have it and they use it and at night it's a

I can tell you that that that part didn't come up that like specific like don't use it. Don't backlight like the sign and use the go goose neck lighting. It it just said keep the gooseeneck lighting. But we could look into that for you if you want. Yeah. So my my I think the recommend I mean it doesn't like spell that out, but I think the point is that for the character of the um you know the that shopping area for it to probably use it. I mean it doesn't say it specifically, but that was my um question. I I can imagine if that's a concern the board had, we'd be more than happy to use a goose neck like Mr. Griffith.

Yes. personal services you mentioned. Um, yes sir. A question is if uh if you were putting a gym in, would that be an allowable use of that space and would it parking be required? I don't think a gym would be listed as personal service. Um, number one, and two, if it was a gym in under 5,000 square feet or under 6,000 feet, whatever the space is, um, I don't think you'd see a gym go in such a small space. I do know there's a huge The point the question is is aimed at the code. Would it be allowable by the code to be in that space? I do not believe so.

And and I know we show a gym there, but that's an accessory use, and it's not really a gym. It's a place for therapy to occur. I understand. But when I look in the window, I see people on exercise machines, right? So, it is similar to a gym visually. Well, it's it it's I believe. Next question. You said um you said the gap required 24 spaces. You assume they got a variance. Do we know the answer to that question or how does that go? I can look into it, but I don't think that they got a variance. I believe that it was an existing retail site that was then grandfathered. Grandfathered with their existing nonconformities.

Fair enough. Thank you. Um Sanders Hardware, the building next door to you that's getting renovated right now. I believe the parking spaces were required of that uh on that project. I believe they were assigned to the housing upstairs. Let's be clear that parking can be required and some people evidently can can produce parking. It's not an impossible I don't Mr. Griffith I don't understand what what you mean by saying parking can be required when there's no parking available parking on site.

A gentleman can buy a space or own property and have parking and make it available to be used or anybody could. It was done. It's not unheard of. It's not impossible. We watched it. We did it. it was required. It's in the it's in the record.

Yeah. Let me let me just clarify that in the case of the restaurant that is um under construction next door uh because they also had a similar kind of situation in which um uh customers would be coming. Uh and so there was a question about availability of parking and the owner uh of the facility agreed uh to secure uh parking uh in the area that would be specific to the needs of that restaurant as well as the residential area that u is being constructed on top of it. So that's that's the the context in which u the question is the comment is being u uh posed. Uh, next master plan. Um, as you interpreted the statement from the master plan, you seem to imply that it it encourages a group like this to make changes to the master plan. Whereas I was listening and I was thinking uh that it was a it was making the case for the changes in the master plan that the master plan's making changes and these are good and that's why it's saying why they're making the changes. I suggest there's more than one way to interpret that statement. The master plan, do you think? Well, master plan is generally written for the public and and to change ordinances and the public doesn't change ordinances and neither does the planning board. So, I I think it was written for a broader ordinance than just the master plan writers

that generally a master plan outlines the changes intended, right? And saying that changes necessary for Monontlair and within the master plan there was change, right? master plan can make recommendations but change has to be in in the community to be effectuated the second step. Yes. So I think it was really more than just to acknowledge that we're going to make some changes or call for some changes in town

and and I think I think what also what Mr. Biden was trying to do was try to satisfy the negative criteria about substantial impairment of the master plan and to tie in goals that the master plan has with what they're proposing. So I think that's that's why he was using that language and uh to to say we're not a substantial impairment because we're we're satisfying at goals X and Y. Uh understood.

Thank you. Uh, last question I have is did you consider other locations for your facility some more similar to like Pilgrim Plaza where there's a large parking lot directly adjacent to the stores. There's there are closed stores there. It's not far away from where we are. Uh, probably cheaper rent, too. But did were I didn't have anything to do with uh site selection. Understood. We could I could find that answer out for you. Mr. Go ahead. I could find that answer out for you.

Okay. I'm I'm curious because the it strikes me this facility would be better served in that type of arrangement and obviously you have similar facilities open in that kind of arrangement. So um I think it's interesting to understand the degree to which you looked. That's it. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Behind this site there's parking. Have you looked into possibly owning a couple of purchasing a couple spaces um or looking to see if there's some type of parking that could go with this property andor that 2,000 square foot property? I I did not I was I was more interested in its location uh to the space and whether or not it was uh totally um subscribed and based on my one drive-thru today, it didn't seem like it was subscribed, but it is in pretty close proximity to the site. Okay. All right. But we obviously my client wouldn't buy the SPite spaces, maybe rent them because they don't own the building.

Okay. So they or designate somehow be able to acquire so that they can look at I have no other questions. Thank you, Mr. M. All right. Thank you. Uh Mr. Lightner, just a couple of uh questions for you. Uh so you mentioned um that you had in addition to driving around the area that you also walked along the sidewalk and so you had an opportunity to sort of examine the streetscape. um the variety of of uh businesses that are on that street, uh the signages, the forms of signages, lighting, etc. Um the amount of uh public uh activity in the area. So

yes, I did. Um so uh this particular building uh is tucked between uh a small retail store uh to the north uh and what is uh under construction as a restaurant to the south. Um, can you speak to how you feel this particular uh proposal fits within the scheme of those two business establishments?

I I think it fits in well the um you know restaurants are funny because they do have those very peak hour type operations. Um restaurants also tend to come and go frequently. Um I have not done a study like you know a photographic study to see if the restaurants there were there five years ago. I suspect some of them probably did not survive COVID. Uh it's unfortunate fact of CO. Um but I think the uh the use would be appropriate and it would provide some of that vitality and and different uses that the master plan is seeking. So the the the restaurant uh that is u under construction was previously a hardware store. Uh and um so the restaurant that uh is under construction uh is not considered to be a facility that will be serving breakfast, lunch and dinner. It is primarily uh uh designed to be a fairly high-end uh uh evening or dinner type of establishment. Perhaps they will have late lunch into into the evening. Uh and uh they also were looking at having uh because of that just as um you've described in terms of this particular facility uh people coming by appointment uh similarly they would anticipate that their clients would be coming or their customers would be coming uh by reservation.

Okay. Uh and so there was considerable conversation uh with this uh with them by the zoning board about um traffic uh and parking. Uh and um so this proposal raises a lot of the same kinds of questions. However, um as we've heard uh from some of the questions that were posed to Mr. Kennedy. Um uh members of the public have have particularly raised uh the concern about people who will be coming uh who will uh perhaps be uh challenged in terms of their mobility and therefore may require uh maybe not because of of being ambulated but simply the practical reality of however um they're being they're being transported to this facility. that they may need to be dropped off or picked up uh right there in front of the building or certainly very close to it. uh and and the qu and the issue that I think that is somewhat behind the question and so I I want you to speak to this is not so much uh whether or not there is available parking but it is about congestion uh because if a vehicle stops uh in the street in order to uh allight someone or to pick up someone uh that it can create additional congestion in that neighborhood. Can you speak to that in terms of u from from your experience as a planner and uh what perhaps you may have observed uh when you uh visited the site?

Yeah, I'll say um something that's maybe not going to be very popular, but what you just described is on the upswing because we're now having all the delivery firms providing delivery services, especially food, uh to people. And just like we've all seen the UPS guy never use a loading zone. Um I think UPS drivers have retired and never been in a loading zone. They park curb frontont. Um the the uh door dashers, the uh hub grub people aren't going to go park even if it's three spaces in front of them. they're going to stop the car, maybe throw on the flashers and pick up what they need to pick up from the restaurant and come back into the car. Now, generally those are young guys. They can move pretty well, but that type of activity is occurring all throughout the state and probably elsewhere. And so, the congestion issues you're talking about are more frequent. And so as a as a planner, do you do you find that kind of situation problematic or uh I mean how do you sort of look at that?

As a driver I find as a planner I just want

as a driver I find it problematic and personally I don't do that. As a planner, I think in our downtown areas, a certain level of congestion is to be desired and to be expected. And um it's it's getting worse. Um, in in Westwood, I I mentioned Westwood before, we to try to avoid that issue, we created curbside graband go spaces that would allow people to park park uh, leave their vehicle for like 10 minutes uh, while they can go pick up something or make a delivery because like Upper Montlair, we have apartments above some of the stores. Um, that's an approach that the municipality is is taking to try to um deal with the congestion problem. I don't think stores or residents can do much about it other than lay on the horn quite frankly because it's it's economics and people are going to do what they need to do or they think they need to do um to provide that delivery service. So that's the best solution I can suggest is having some type of uh graband go place. Um but it only works if people use it. So So you would you would then um um allow that that um the uh parking and and traffic um is is a is a problematic. I mean, it's it's getting worse as you've indicated. It's it's not something that that Ivy itself has created, but it's a situation that is a reality. Um, given given that area.

Yeah. And and something that we the rest of us need to live with. I'm not suggesting that Ivy would have that kind of a situation because you did also hear that Mr. Kennedy said, "Well, if we had a uh a client who needed that kind of uh service, we might direct them to one of our other uh operations that are nearby location." And I think you mentioned about five of them. So, that may be an operational step that this particular um applicant could do that maybe another applicant couldn't deal with. All right. Um I'd like to just ask one question. Mr. line. You indicated the lot size is 5,627 ft. Is that correct?

I thought that was a building size. That's why I'm asking. I thought we said two. I may have read the wrong number, Mr. Soul. The lot area I have. The lot area is 5,627 ft and the building is 4942. So the the square feet that we're talking about is 2,942 ft. Is that right for this space? No, this space would be 4,942 square feet. Okay. How big is the building? I think that's the building size. Which which is the building size? 4,942 but not the space under lease if that's what you're getting to.

Yeah, I'm I'm trying to understand what is the square footage of the proposed physical therapy. I think your number was correct. So, it's the 4,942 minus the 2,00 ft approximately fit out the u our area 2942 or 2800 whatever you guys are telling me says 28. Okay, it does. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Uh so, no. Uh, yes,

Mr. Chairman. I there's been some questions and concerns raised by the board and some members of the public. So, what I'd like to do if with the board's uh acceptance is um uh carry the meeting for now. Uh let us go back reevaluate some of the things that were discussed with you guys with you. Um and then I will bring both Mr. glide in back and whoever else is going to testify back so that the I obviously the public has the right to ask him questions as well. But it's 10:00. I'm sure Mr. Tremulac is scratching at the chair to get started. So yeah, I'm not sure how much Mr. Trebulac is scratching to get started.

Scratching that's Yes. I mean that would be acceptable to us and then um uh we can perhaps discuss when there could be an alternative time. Yeah. Um, and I'll sign any extension of time. Yeah. Let's see where we are. So, we have meetings on January 21st, February 4th, February 18th. Also, yes, January 21st. Okay. And your witnesses will be back? Yes, I will bring my witnesses back. And do we need an extension of time from Mr. Koh? No, we don't.

Okay. If something changes and you need one, just email. Thank you all. Have a good holiday season. Will there be a notice to the public? Uh, no. Okay. So, please state that so that So, the hearing will be carried to uh January 21st, 2026 without a need for further public notice. Thank you. I'd like to thank the board for their time. Happy holidays. Happy Most welcome. That's at 7:00 on that day. 7 p.m. That's right. Thank you. 7:30. Um, we're going to uh just uh take about Well, why don't we see what Mr. Trevileak is gonna do first before we do that. Thank you. All right. Okay. Good evening, Mr. Chair. Mr. Trevac, congratulations on promotion.

Well, what or condolences? I'm not sure. Um, so my application is fairly uh lengthy and with four witnesses. Um, we and you know, given the the hour, given the time of year, uh, I don't think it would serve much purpose really for us to get started. maybe get through one witness and be coming back for the bulk of our presentation, you know, at future meetings. So, I'd like to request that uh our application be carried. I'd like to be on the January 21st um agenda and hope for the best um uh or maybe there'll be some changes, but that's acceptable to the board. And of course, you know, the applicant, you know, consents to any necessary extension of time. Um I I think um just a question for you now because we have we have one application that was previously carried um which is um perhaps also going to engender some lengthy discussion uh and uh now we've uh are looking at adding adding two additional what's your recommendation I want to make sure that there there's ample opportunity to well We we could look at you we have Dimmitri Charles on, right?

Yes. I don't I don't believe that will be going forward in January. Okay. So, but it's on the books right now. We would then have the uh one that we just heard at uh 629 Valley Road and then Mr. Tremulac would be behind. I mean, we can always schedule that. Mr. Trevileak has the option to further carry it if there's some reason there's witness problems or they don't think they're going to go forward with Yeah, they might not be ready to proceed and we would move up to them. So we would, you know, ask to be on that agenda and and we'll hope for the best. Okay. All right. Thank you. So

So presently, application 29324120 watching Avenue is being carried to January 21st, 2026 without the need for further public notice. And that meeting time is 7 p.m. So just so it's very clear, there's no further notice to the public. It's going to be carried to that date, January 2126 at 700 p.m. Okay. Thank you very much. Merry Christmas. Happy holidays. Every and the public is certainly welcome to come and ask questions and make comments. May I ask one May I please ask one kind of procedural question? You may.

I'm Holly. I own Barbara Eclectic, 594 Valley Road. At what point or at what number of variances does an ordinance become nullified? Okay. That that can't be questioned. It can't be asked um and answered accurately based on what's in front of us. No, no, no. It has nothing to do with I just mean in general. So, there's no number that would automatically nullify. seems like it weakens the ordinance every time if the ordinance is set to preserve something,

but the ordinance also but the board this board of adjustment exists in order to grant variances from the strict terms of an ordinance where appropriate. So that's why the testimony is is presented and then the board decides. Okay. Thank you. All right. I'd like to uh suggest to the to the board that we take about two or three minutes. Um so this is the adjustment board. Can you hear me? I'm sorry. Um can you hear me? My name is Donna Picket. Uh what is the purpose of this board? I've been to the planning. Okay. We just I I thought I just said that. Did you? Okay. There's Yeah. The the board of adjustment Sorry. grants

variances a use variance like the last application that we heard. Okay. the this board has exclusive jurisdiction to grant a use variance. Planning board can't grant use variances. That's a function of this board. Okay. So, I'm here for the I'll come back on the 21st for the gas station. But can anyone tell me what zone that is? That's NC, right? So, it's a non all the all the materials available for for review. The planners memo, they're on the website and you can review all that stuff. What website's that? So, it's Montclair um township's website and if you go to pending land use boards, it's like under government land use boards and pending applications, you'll see it there.

But it's a non-conforming site. Yeah, if if you want to give me um an email, I'll send it to you. All right. Maybe we could do that offline. Yes, we're going to take a two or three minute break, please, if you need to. Just had a quick uh just had a quick comment question. Um for the next time, because I'm going to come back. Yes. Uh, are you going to reveal what is going into that 2,000 foot space because it does have some Hold on. Hold on. It's not There's no There's no application in front of us with respect to the 2,000 square ft. We're dealing with what the applicant presented to us. That's all. Right. I get it. I understand. I don't see any egress here either on the plan. And that's why I'm asking. Well, you can ask questions about that. I think that's pertinent. Yes.

Okay. Perfect. All right. Have a good holiday. Okay. Thank you. Good night to you. Okay. Okay. Does anyone need to take a break for a couple of minutes? I think we need to adjourn. Is it No, no, no. We have a couple of That's why I'm asking the question before I think we'll just take two or three minutes. Yes. Three minutes, please. Yes. Three minutes. Thank you.

All right, we're um we have uh uh two uh items uh that we need to address before we adjourn. So the first uh relates to the development review committee. Uh for those of you that may not be familiar with that, the development review committee is essentially a joint committee of the planning board and the zoning board uh to do the initial review of applications that ultimately in our case end up here. Uh and it's an opportunity for uh those two boards to weigh in if they see that there are discrepancies or areas of those applications that need further definition like a traffic study or um said those kinds of things. Lighting uh they should account for lighting. they should account for um safety uh public safety uh to offer those that commentary to applicants um so that they can um revise their application uh their plans before they actually come to in in our case this zoning board. Uh so um I'd like to uh we we do uh need to appoint a member to the development review committee uh because Bill uh has served in that capacity. Um I'd like to uh to uh uh nominate Mr. Simon uh to serve uh as our representative on that uh and um the floor will be open to other nominations uh if there are others that would be interested in serving. It meets once a month uh on the first Thursday. Yes.

At approximately 700 p.m. for about an hour, hour and a half. I second. All right. Uh you can make Why don't you actually make the Sure. Sure. I I make a motion uh for uh Mr. Simon to serve on the development board. Dele review committee. The development review committee. Is there a second? Second. Any other? All right. All in favor say I. All opposed. You are wonderfully elected.

Okay. Um the second uh item that we have uh then uh relates to the uh annual report for 2024. Uh and um I think all of you have received a copy of that and had an opportunity to um to review that. Um there was only one thing that um I would uh raise to our secretary and that was on page four in paragraph 11. Um and maybe maybe I'm just not understanding what is being referred to here. Uh but uh uh in the um fourth line there's a reference to a traffic circle. Uh what is that traffic circle? Uh cuz I don't recall that there is a traffic circle on Valley Road. I know there is one on Church Street. Yeah, I'm not sure. That was language from the last year's recommendation, but I will clarify. Okay.

And um I'll amend that language. I'll send it to you and the chair for approval. To me, sorry to the chair, vice chair for approval. I'm so sorry. I know it's hard. She hasn't accepted me. She hasn't accepted. It's late. Are there any other uh uh changes to the Yes, Mr.

Cruz have one um for items six on page three and uh you mentioned accessory princip I didn't um then also count as part of structure. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So it was a as chair uh previous chair Harrison had described it, it was to avoid stacking accessory structures to then have them count as you know technically separated but it was a way to avoid circum circumventing the exact

circumventing I'm sorry circumventing the ordinance by stacking accessory structures wanted to accumulate all those as part of the principal structure. So then there would be subject up against the the principal structure that doesn't count as an accessory structure.

Right? So then if you're putting a accessory structure 4T from the principal dwelling and then another accessory structure within 4T of that that needs to count as part of the principal dwelling and has to then comply with the building coverage impervious coverage. Well anyways it would but the setbacks for um primary dwellings. So, somebody had an accessory structure that they set next to a lot line that was supposed to be 20 ft away from that lot line and it wasn't and they instead then just bombed it on to the primary structure structure. Correct.

So, no, this is saying that within 4T it doesn't have to be connected, but it's going to be considered as part of the principal structure. So and and and the setback for a principal structure would apply to that structure. Exactly. Go ahead. So you wouldn't get away with the less lesser setback of the accessory structure. Okay. Other items hearing. Yes, Mr. Ger. I'm still not happy about the uh what's it the accessory dwelling unit square footage that they came up with and makes they increase the 33rd and 40 ft. Mhm.

I imagine we'll have to talk about it more in order to have a write it up today. I think it is really so that would not not pertain to this particular item. You're talking about Well, it's a recommendation for changes to the amendment, right? I mean, I would be a recommendation we make, but we can do it next year. I guess I will give you that report at the beginning of the year. So, we have time to look at it before it's due. Yeah. That it could be part of the 2025 report as which I will deliver much sooner than December of the year. Okay.

And then we then we can have that discussion. Yes. Anything else? All right. Is there a motion to uh approve the Yeah, it's a motion. It's a motion. The MLUS says you have to do this by resolution. So, it's a motion to approve the resolution adopting the annual report for 2024. All right. Is there a motion? I'll make that motion. Second. Is there a second? Second. All right. All in favor of approving the resolution is signify by saying I. I. All opposed. No abstensions. Thank you. Is there a motion to adjurnn? Motion to adjourn.

Okay. I don't think I have to ask for a second. All right. Thank you very much. Have a wonderful night and uh wonderful holidays to all. See you in the new year. That's right. You did it. See you next year.