Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Good evening.

Good evening. Good evening and welcome to the June 1st, 2026 regular meeting of the Township of Montclair Planning Board. In accordance with the New Jersey Open Public Meetings Act, Chapter 72 of New Jersey's Public Laws of 2025 and amendments to Section 12 of the Municipal Land Use Law, Adequate notice of this meeting has been provided by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building on the township's official Internet-wide website and on the statewide legal notices listing of the New Jersey Department of State. This meeting is being broadcast live on Channel 34 and is streaming live and will be available on demand on YouTube. This meeting is a quasi-judicial proceeding, meaning the board has powers and procedures resembling a court of law, and we are obligated to objectively determine facts and draw conclusions from them in order to provide the basis of an official action. Any questions or comments must be limited to issues of what the board may legally consider in reaching a decision. And the decorum appropriate to a judicial hearing must be maintained at all times. Fire exits are to my right, your left, and in the back of the room where you entered. Continue on since we're having hearings, correct? Yeah. OK. As to the order of the evening, each application hearing begins with the applicant or their attorney giving an overview of the application and the variances that are required, if any. We then hear from any expert witnesses the applicant may have to help explain the application and why variances are required. The board members may ask questions of the applicant, the attorney, and their expert witnesses. If you are a member of the interested public but not a witness in the case, you will have two opportunities to speak. At the end of each witness's testimony, you will be given the opportunity to ask the witness questions about his or her testimony. That is not the time to tell the board what you think of the application. To ask questions, you will have to come to the front of the room, give us your name and address, and then ask your questions related to the witness's testimony only. Only after the applicant's witnesses and any objector and objector witnesses have been heard, members of the audience will have their second opportunity to step forward. At that time, you may express your opinions, positive or negative, about the applications. Comments are generally limited to three minutes per person. An additional time that the public may be heard is when one or more residents present to the board as an objector to the application. Objectors may be represented by counsel and present their cases, including independent evidence and witnesses for the board to consider after the applicant has finished its case. Different from public comment, objectors and their witnesses are expected to present evidence for the board to consider as opposed to their personal opinions and will be subject to cross-examination by the public and by the applicant. After the completion of the applicant's case, objector's case, and public comment, the public hearing is then closed and the board members discuss the case and vote. You will be able to listen to our discussion but not be able to participate in it. I suppose we should start with roll call.

Mayor Baskerville. Present. Mr. Borschoff. Present. Mr. Campbell is excused. Councillor D'Amato is excused. Ms. Gaines. Present. Vice Chair Graham is excused. Temporary Chair Ian Wally. Present. Ms. Willis. Present. Mr. Orbea. Present. Ms. Wallace. Present. And Chair Brodock is excused.

so we have no um approval of minutes to discuss swear in the board yes number three i was doing before which is so three comes first thank you okay the minutes from the previous meeting okay hello do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you may give tonight will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth i do i do thank you Okay, we do not have minutes to approve. So we do have one resolution which was circulated, I believe. 56 Park Street. Application 2960.

And I did not receive any comments or changes to the resolution. Is there a motion to approve? Second.

Second.

Okay, all in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Abstentions?

OK. OK, and that brings us to application 2945, 580 Valley Road, Beejee Valley, LLC. Would the applicant and its representatives come forward?

Mr. Chairman, I just want to point out that we do have Deputy Fire Chief Lisa here to provide testimony. Prior to, correct? I told him that we would try and get him on early in the evening, so if we could have him present his information. And I did let Mr. Trembulak know that he might be here as well.

Okay. That's fine with us. Okay, that's great. Sure.

Okay, Attorney Tremulak, it's yours.

Yeah, let me just make my appearance. Alan Tremulak appearing on behalf of the applicant BG Valley LLC. We're here to continue the hearing on this matter. I have two witnesses to present, which would be representative from the operator SwimQuest. our traffic engineer will provide testimony with respect to parking I understand we're going to hear from chief listen before I call the witnesses so that's certainly fine with us we're not calling him as the board to be clear

To be clear, this is a presentation unrelated. He's not a witness of the applicant. This is information that you're presenting with respect to parking, correct?

Yeah, it was at the request of the board. The board asked that Mr. Lisa be present to answer questions about how this project affects the operations on the fire department site.

Very good.

Yeah.

mr. Liza can you hear me okay this mr. Liza you are deputy chief of the Montclair fire department correct and your first name my name is Michael Lisa and I'm going to swear you in.

Okay.

Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

I do.

You've already stated your name, that's your full name for the record, and you are affiliated as Deputy Chief of the Montclair Fire Department.

Correct.

Okay. think you heard or at least I think you knew the part of the reason why you are here is because this project may have an effect on the operation of the of the fire department with regard to its its property right next door to the applicants property yes I will also say that there has been an objection at least sent which I had forwarded to the board from a member of the public who expressed some concern about conversations that you may have had with Mr. Genova, representative of the applicant. And I'm not here to cross-examine you. The board may have questions for you. You may even have a statement that you want to make. I know that you were part of an email string that was sent or that the board has reviewed as part of the consideration of this application. so why don't I just ask you whether or not you have a statement or something you would like to make up front and then perhaps the board and the public will have an opportunity to ask you questions I don't have a statement I I'm just here to answer questions as they come okay then one and I just start and say have you had an opportunity to review the plans of this application

I was able to review whatever Ms. Talley sent me, I guess it was about February of this year, just asking for input on the project. So it was in February of 2026.

And did you have any conversations with Mr. Genova at any time concerning this proposed project?

Yes, so in January, I'll just look at my notes, in January of 2025, late January, early February, Mr. Genova reached out to my office just to let us know that they were planning to do demolition of that building at some point, and I think at some point they were going to put up fencing around the building, I guess just to keep people out. But I guess he was just asking, he noticed that there were mornings where cars, firefighters' cars were in that. Along the right side of the building, there's those angled parking spots. He kind of just inquired as to why they're there. The firefighters work a 24-hour schedule, so they work from 8 a.m. to 8 a.m. the next day. So oftentimes in the morning, somewhere around 7 a.m., the outgoing shift will move their cars to a different location, so as the firefighters arrive for their shift, they'll just pull into our lot. So we would typically, firefighters would pull their cars right over the curb. When the bank was operational, it was happening as well because it was typically before the bank opened. So it was just a temporary spot for the outgoing shift to put their cars until the new shift would come in, and then the new shift would leave their cars in the fire department lot for the balance of the 24 hours.

That shift always begins at 8 o'clock and ends at 8 o'clock, the 12-hour shift?

If they're on time, it does. So he just said, look, you know, is it important for you guys to use that? And I said, look, it's a convenience. It's not a necessity. It's nice because otherwise the firefighters would have to take up spots on Valley Road. You know, it's just a little bit more tedious for them to find a spot on Valley Road. They're gonna take up a spot for somebody else. So I said, it's a convenience. And so he just said, look, if I can make it work for you guys to use it in this time before we do demo, I will. And he did. So it was just a, look, we're not demoing the building yet. The fences are, and the fences, I don't even know, did the fences actually go up? But that was the plan. And he said, you know, you guys could use it just as a temporary measure of shift change. So that was the conversation I had with him in January.

Does the fire department, to your knowledge, have any kind of written agreement concerning this with the applicant?

No.

What is your understanding as to what's going to happen when the demolition, if the demolition goes forward?

We didn't discuss a plan for when the demolition actually occurs. So we just, this was a temporary plan in place until the demolition actually occurs.

So it is basically an accommodation to the fire department by the applicant.

I just said, you know, it would be convenient for us and he said, you know, well, we'll make it work.

So there's no expectation that the fire department is going to be able to go over the curb when, as and if, the applicant builds the building?

No, we don't have an expectation of that. That was brought up maybe a couple of months later, he said, you know, is this something that if we can incorporate it into the design, is it something that would be helpful? And I said, you know, like I said the first time, it's a convenience for us. It would be helpful, but if it, you know, we also wouldn't do it if it interfered with the operation of the business, depending on the timeframe that the business is open. It's really just, it's a convenience for our firefighters.

How many times would you say you had conversations with Mr. Genova concerning this?

You know, four or five times, different times over the course of the 2025. and during the course of those conversations have you shared with the board essentially what you and he talked about was there anything else um i actually i think i shared it in an email with um with janice uh just saying like you know we spoke about it um and that that's i she was my only contact with the board will tell you that email is part of the record right of this application just so you're aware yeah and our fire official Justin Thompson also put some diagrams together and that's on that email chain as well okay anyone from the board have questions this one is do we have those diagrams that were part of the email

you mean the diagram just reference diagrams it's in the email that was submitted with your package so you should have it in your files did the applicant ever imply to you that he was gonna cite the building in a certain location on the property to accommodate the fire trucks after the business was open not for the fire trucks no not not the trucks the private vehicles

Yeah, so it was a general conversation of him saying, well, if I can do this, I will. And I said, you know, it's a convenience for us, but if you can't do it, we'll have to park on the street.

Did you ever request that he site the building and put in a certain location on the property and set up the property in a certain way to accommodate the ferry department?

I didn't ask him to do it, but I said if it were possible, then it would help us. But I didn't say, can you do it? I just...

And just to clarify, we're still talking about personal vehicles, not talking about the operation of the fire trucks, right? Correct. Okay. Thank you.

have one quick question if if there had if there is going to be a fence there you do have an ability to go into the lot by the fire station and then the cars would just do a k turn and get out you can you can you can go back yeah so that um that lot if there's already cars in there it would be very difficult to do so what would happen is seven o'clock in the morning the firefighters that are currently on duty would just move their cars to try to find spots somewhere along the street um somewhere on valley road um and just leave them there for the hour or whatever it takes for the relief to come in we they can't leave until the relief comes in so there's always gonna at some point there are going to be double the amount of cars there but it's usually a you know a half an hour people kind of you know start to come in around 7 30 and everyone's in by eight o'clock thank you chairman how many vehicles are you referring to in that 24-hour shift so it's typically anywhere from four to six people on duty in that firehouse so that would be throughout the shift and then you'd have eight to twelve cars at shift change anyone else on the board have questions

Does anyone in the audience have questions for this witness? If so, please step forward.

Jane Hanson.

Jane Hanson, Marion Road. I have a copy of the email from you to Janice from February 11th, 2026. And in that email, you expressed some concern about the main entry about an entrance on to Valley Road and it's operative interference with the fire department operations particularly within it's called the fire lane those straight those straight lanes do you still have that concern sorry do I have to press push no no you're okay it's on oh okay is that on it's on yeah okay

so you're you're you're are you I just want to make sure you're you're complete so the the issue that was brought up in that email was I guess there was an option to have the drop-off point on the valley roadside or the backside of that building So, of course, if it was on the valley roadside, human nature is the cars are going to stack up in front of the firehouse. And I just said, I believe that the option of having it in the rear of the building, which would just get more cars off of the road as they come in to drop to drop off the young swimmers.

So if there still is a front door and the public can access the facilities through the front door on Valley Road, do you still have that concern?

If the drop-off, the main drop-off was in the front and cars were waiting to drop off at the front, they would stack up across the firehouse.

And then the other question is, I think you're aware, or Justin wrote in his email about a left turn lane from Northbound Valley Road, and that traffic has already backed up to Cooper. Do you continue to have concerns about that?

Yeah, I mean, I believe it would be difficult for people to make that left turn into that space just because of the traffic coming south.

Okay, thank you.

Does anyone else have questions from the audience? You can come forward.

Is there concern about, oh, Matt Roberts, I live on Upper Mountain. Is there concern about the traffic in the back area? as well. I guess that doesn't concern you that much? In the parking lot there? Yeah, because it can back up and you can actually not even make a right turn past the movie theater sometimes because there's so much traffic in that parking lot.

Yeah, I'm not really aware of the traffic in the parking lot. It wouldn't affect our ability to get out of the building. Right, right.

Understood. Okay, thanks.

good evening hi I actually spoke to you on the phone my name is Geraldine Lear I live in Montclair I thought I heard the developer say the chief of the fire department but he referred me to the deputy chief are you concerned without the swim school being built about your ability to turn left out of the firehouse

there always seems to be traffic there. So when we pull out, cars typically move out of the way if there's room for them to do so. So ideally, we would be in a spot like we are on Pine Street where we have a little bit more traffic control there, but you have a firehouse in the middle of a busy area, which is, it's a double-edged sword. You want it in the middle of the busy area. so it's in a great spot to get to everything that's in that area of town you know but it's a busy area of town so it's always gonna be busy so it's always a concern we'd love to be able to just free flow out of there anytime we want but you know well do you understand that I'm concerned that let's say the train trust the train is going by and the traffic stopped for the train

tend from what I understand having spoken to the swim school at another location that's very congested there will be 10 to 15 cars perhaps circling trying to find parking and already you told me on the phone that you you know are frustrated by the fact that people don't always respect those yellow lines and I believe with the added traffic and the lack of parking Do you feel it's going to impede, if you need to fight a fire and going north on Valley Road is your best way to do so, if one of these citizens' homes are on fire, do you think that swim school is going to help or hurt your ability to get out of the firehouse even?

If cars are stacked in front of the firehouse, it would take us a little longer to move the cars out of the way with the sirens for sure.

And is that in the best interest of the citizens of Montclair?

Yeah, I mean, yes, we face challenges like all the time, that kind of challenge. So it will slow us down.

Right. And you said that your firemen, it's tedious for them to find parking.

it's it's more of an issue of so they're on duty so if they have to park half a block away they take a radio with them and if there's a call and they're in the middle of parking their car you know they have to you know they're gonna have to walk back to the fire run back to the fire station to park their car you know we have at pine street we have spots that people can move their cars to without being too far from the fire station so maybe tedious isn't the right word it's just not as convenient but you know there are firehouses in cities that that do this all the time so it's just a matter of us adjusting to however it works for us okay all right thank you

Hi, my name is Liz Zazie, and I live in Upper Montclair by Montclair State University.

Ms. Zazie, how do you spell your last name?

Z-A-Z-Z-I. Okay. Thank you for your service, and thank you for your testimony or your information. This is a math question. So you have shifts that are changing over, and you said it's around 8 o'clock in the morning. Is that right? 8 a.m. is our typical shift change right so that would also be the time I think when school buses might also be driving on Valley Road with children on their way to school do you have an estimate of how many firefighters would be impacted with having to move their cars in order to get on duty it's again it's typically uh anywhere from four to six that are on duty there four to six firefighters that would have to um make i don't know how how long would you say that would take to look for a spot on that they're typically doing that around 7 00 a.m so usually it's not too crowded up there at 7 00 a.m so do you anticipate there being any problems with school buses typical traffic on Valley Road the the train the commuter train operating both ways with the gates coming down clogging up Bellevue Avenue do you anticipate I know it's an inconvenience but do you think that that is is kind of a danger to people that might have their house on fire with firefighters rushing with their radios from a parked car somewhere in the vicinity of Valley Road to get to their shift typically at 7 a.m. there's there are usually spots right there so I wouldn't anticipate that at 7 a.m. maybe at a later hour it would be more of an issue okay but you would call it an inconvenience it's it's an inconvenience that's that's generally it yep chief when you say a later hour what would you

I think if you get to 8, after 8 o'clock, typically you see traffic picking up in that area. I haven't worked at that fire station in probably 15 years, 20 years. But I travel that way, and I'm at the fire station. But at 7 o'clock, it's pretty quiet up there.

are your just one more are your firefighters do they get like placards for personal cars to allow them to park without paying meters we we don't now because we typically don't use that but that would be a great idea I'll look into it thank you they're already gonna they'll be watching this waiting for their sticker

hello Holly Felber I Barbara eclectic located at 594 Valley Road I'm three doors down from the firehouse and thank you for your service I regularly see the traffic backed up and all the cars on those yellow lines as a matter of fact if I'm traveling north on Valley Road I make a point of stopping I have had people go around me into the oncoming traffic lane to get in front of me. I have also had people hit their horns over and over again where I'm stopping and following the law. I also have witnessed many, many, many times the trucks trying to take a left out of the firehouse and they can't.

This is the session where there should be questions asked. I assume you've got a question coming up?

Yes. I would like to know, in your experience, the cars that regularly stop there or park on those lines, do you know if they're ever issued tickets?

So the fire department doesn't issue those tickets, so it would actually have to be a situation where a police officer were there at the right time, and you know they're not going to do it when they see a police car there. So I don't know for sure. It may have happened, but I can't say that it has or hasn't.

Okay. I guess that's my only question for now. Thank you.

Hi, my name is Suzanne Neckerman. I used to own a store on 590 Valley Road and I had a fire on a Saturday afternoon one year and the fire department was able to come out and be there in literally three minutes. Unfortunately, the soot and everything from the fire destroyed every piece of merchandise I owned in the store. So what do you think would be happening if you were three minutes longer? Because there was a lot of cars there and you couldn't come out. And I'm literally on Bellevue where now is the liquor store in my old space. So it's 500 yards.

Yeah, I mean, any delay that we have, we talk about time all the time. So any delay we have is not ideal for us. So a delay is not a good thing.

Okay. Do you have any idea what the delay could be to get out of the firehouse if all the cars were blocking you?

Yeah, I, you know, we have times now where the cars are blocking, so I don't know what the exact traffic would be, so it would be hard for me to predict an additional delay.

But you are experiencing delays already, right?

Yeah, so there are times, there are certain times of the day where we, you know, it's a little slower for us to get out of the firehouse for sure.

so my whole fire from when it started and when it was out was 20 minutes and it destroyed everything I had in that store so time is and I'm sure everyone is aware of that but time is so of the essence that I am personally very concerned and I appreciate you being here and speaking up for it okay thanks Holly Felber

Another question. Are you aware that from time to time when the fire truck is unable to exit the firehouse that the firemen go door to door asking who owns such and such a car that is blocking? Are you aware that that happens?

I know that there have been issues when cars are actually parked in the wrong spot. We are actually going to work with Complete Streets. There are some things we can put in the street that the cars actually can't park there. But it's a county road, so we have to get approval. But I know it has happened where the cars were parked. It actually sometimes prevents us from coming back into the firehouse as well. one last question is it ever within the realm of the authority of the fire department to ever write a ticket for any infraction the fire department as far as traffic goes can only write fire lane tickets so we can only ticket a car or issue a summons to a car that's parked in a fire lane excuse me in a fire lane and are those yellow lines considered a fire lane I'm not actually sure if they're considered a fire lane. Fire lanes are typically on private property and marked for fire lanes. So a police officer could write a car that's parked illegally on a public street.

And can you tell me when the last time the fire department wrote a ticket for such an infraction?

We, I would say it was probably yesterday. But not uptown. We write tickets for, we either get complaint calls or we have problem areas that we go to and we will issue summons for illegally parked cars in a fire lane.

My name is Warren Ross. I own the building 44 Upper Montclair Plaza right behind me. So you mentioned that early in the morning there's plenty of parking in the plaza area. Are you aware that starting around 10 o'clock there are maybe only two parking spaces available the entire day? in the Upper Moncton Plaza parking lot?

I was not aware of that.

So the people in your building have a direct view back there. Is it possible that you could ask them to be on the lookout? With the exceptions of Sunday and Monday, those two days, there's adequate parking in that lot. But every other day there isn't. Is it possible that your people could observe what's going into that parking lot in those other days and give you a report on how busy that is?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, they'll definitely, I would ask them for feedback. I mean, we're not moving our cars at that time, so it wouldn't affect our ability to change shifts.

Okay, thank you.

Hello.

My name is Sue Van Inwogen.

I can't hear.

My name is Susan Van Inwogen. Because of its relevance to safety, I would like to know if you have done or if you have done a traffic study. I've heard much about a parking study.

There's a witness, I believe, that is going to be called.

You've been talking about parking, not traffic.

but to me traffic is the study that's relevant to the safety of the people who live in Montclair and in that area how quickly they were able to get to that person who lived you know I don't know whose business was just a couple blocks away but if you're stuck in gridlock I've been stuck in gridlock for 20 minutes on Claremont when traffic has been redirected and I really think a study is should be done it's the fire department about traffic, not parking. I mean, parking, yes, it's an inconvenience, but the traffic is about safety.

Okay, this witness is representing the interaction between the fire department and the applicant with respect to this application. With respect to traffic, and I'll defer to Attorney Neese, traffic itself, not parking, but traffic is not pertinent to this application technically. Is that correct?

Technically correct.

Technically, I'm a nurse. You work for the fire department. I think traffic is the thing that would stop the fire department from getting to the place they need to be. Why would traffic not be of vital importance beyond parking? Parking is an inconvenience. Traffic is what prevents them from doing their job.

No, that's not his testimony. He says it doesn't prevent them from doing their job. He says that there are times when there are delays, but that doesn't prevent them. He didn't testify.

Well, a delay can be deadly.

I understand that, and I'm not minimizing it, but what I'm doing is listening to this gentleman's testimony, and I don't want it to be mischaracterized. That's all I'm saying.

I'm just a citizen concerned about the safety of the residents of Montclair. Yeah. I think a traffic study should be done. I think it should be prioritized.

Just on that point, as the board knows, I stated earlier in this application and on other recent applications that off-site traffic conditions are not relevant to an application that involves a permitted use. And I think Mr. Neese agrees with that comment. Which is not to say that the town should not do a parking study. They probably should. Maybe there are improvements that could be made in general. but it's not our application as the applicant to provide a parking study or to prove that there are no traffic issues. There are traffic issues, but they exist now, and it's a general problem.

Thank you.

So let's exacerbate the problem.

Whoever goes there will exacerbate the problem.

not to that degree but my name is Arlene Carini I own one savvy design if you put in a restaurant you put in a boutiques a couple of boutiques it's not going to bring in the amount of flow of cars coming in at all day long on and off how do you know that I'm curious because I've been in town for 15 years watching the traffic flow outside of my store man this is always have other people do you have a question I have to redirect hello sir thank you for your services so I've been told that there was issues with the preschool from st. James that they're parking in front of the firehouse and it's really difficult for you guys to get the truck out and that some of the parents were told to park in the Bellevue driveway and drop off some of the kids but driving through I've seen a lot of vehicles there so that I know can impact you And as the previous person spoke, you getting out in a timely manner is saving a life, a house burning down, saving an animal. So there's a lot of factors to be considered. And for the town to diminish that a traffic study should not be done is not right at all.

Do you have a question for this witness?

the question is can you tell me how much of an inconvenience is the preschool when they open up and they pick up so for the pickup and drop-off for the preschoolers at st. James how much of an inconvenience is that right now for the fire department

there there are times where cars will drop the children off right there it's kind of right in front of our firehouse it makes it a little it makes it more difficult to get out those cars are off to the side of the road it's probably less of an issue than the cars that are just stacked up going north towards Bellevue because they're off to the side and a lot of times we can kind of sneak by them but we did notice people and we've Tried to remind people and I believe someone went over to the school and said look if you could let your parents know to drop them off around the corner.

So do you remember during the tree lighting, I coordinate the tree lighting, and we needed Santa to come on your truck, and Santa couldn't come because some lady decided to park where the cones were and decided to just, took ownership and parked there, and we're like, ma'am, you need to move your car because Santa needs to come. She's like, my grandson needs to go inside.

Do you have a question?

Yeah, I asked him if he remembered.

I wasn't there for that. You weren't there. I forgot. Santa had a walk, I guess.

So you know how long it took Santa to get there? It took him a while and people were kind of annoyed. So imagine that's an emergency situation. Just put it into perspective. You also said there's about four to six fire cars.

Personal vehicles, yeah.

Personal vehicle. So I drove past there. And so they were kind of like sloppily parked. They weren't like all like parked backed up. There was like a big gap behind each car. If they kind of just had maybe lanes to park, maybe they would park within the lane. There'd be a little bit of room where if they pull in, then somebody can pull out. There's enough space where you don't have to go onto Mr. Genova's property.

Are you saying firefighters aren't organized?

maybe a little crazy too I'm sure if we were a little more organized and like I said it's it's a convenience for us we could make it work but you can make of course okay so I just don't want that to be like the main reason why this project gets approved because you know we pride ourselves on adapting yes and I hope that you guys can adapt to a lot of traffic okay so there's that and then you said that there's eight to twelve cars when there's a shift change so for example if there's a vehicle going into your property and someone's trying to get out do you wait for those guys to come in first like before the shift change or do they like alternate

think we've established that we're pretty haphazard with this stuff so it's just you know people start coming in as early if they live far away they're in at 715 so it's kind of just dribs and drabs and it's not really you know if the cars are already out of the way four or six cars coming in is not a huge deal it's not like a one everyone shows up at once that would be an issue

So my question to you is, you know, I know Dave Genova asked a women's club if he can rent spaces and they said no, but you're the fire department, so you have a different, people just look at you differently. And they would probably honor if you went to them and made it easy for your fire crew to maybe park at the women's clubs this way. They don't have to be circling, you know, they're taking up a spot that's a 12-hour shift. so it's just an option to maybe ask a larger law around the area that if they can you know park in those spots just something to think about to alleviate some of the crossover time um So you've already stated that it's difficult to get out during peak times. Okay. With the Bellevue Theater and Dan and Dave's in the corner and, you know, all the businesses now coming in, I don't know if you're aware that there's three new businesses coming into the Montclair Plaza.

If we can keep this to this application, if possible. It's traffic and how it's going to impact. Yeah. We're not evaluating the operation of the fire department. The testimony was about the operation of the applicant's property and how that property is accommodating the needs of the fire department to park intermittently during those shift changes. And I don't want to change the direction of the question, but I thought I would just kind of go back to that initial advice that we got with respect to why this testimony is being presented now.

The applicant used it as a force to help, in his favor, get what he wants.

I don't think that's true.

That's not true.

I think that's a gross misstatement. This deputy chief has appeared here because there was a concern that there was conversations with Mr. Genova. And the deputy chief has expressed, under oath, what those conversations were. I think you have mischaracterized this completely.

okay okay but as a citizen and as a business owner I have the right to my opinion and to ask my questions that I ask and it's not just me it's coming from lots of people and I'm just here to present it that's fine that's fine but

My name is Graham . I live in Montclair. Straightforward question. Would you say the construction of this school will improve the function of the fire department?

I wouldn't say it would improve it.

Well, would it improve the function of the fire department?

It would not improve the function of the fire department. Thank you.

Are there any more questions from the audience?

for this witness, yes. Would the presence of the school there, in your opinion, help the fire department or hinder it?

Without seeing the amount of traffic, I'd be speculating. I can't say if it would help it or hurt it. Increased traffic, if it's stacked up, would certainly slow the fire trucks coming out down. I don't know what percentage that would be. Obviously, the developers would know that, but I wouldn't say it would help it in any way.

Hi, Steve Jelsey on Stephen Street. How many calls do you guys have in a month? And how many of those calls are, most of the people at the school are going to be there like after school, right? I would assume the swim school is going to be busiest like from 3 to 5 or 2 to 5?

I'm not sure of the schedule.

Assuming that most kids go there after school, the busiest times a day that the swim school is going to be going is 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Roughly how many calls a month do you get between 2 p.m. and 5 p.m.? I think that's a relevant question.

I don't know the answer off the top of my head. We respond to almost 4,000 calls a year total. But I could get a breakdown, but I wasn't prepared for that question.

Okay, it looks like there's one more question.

I feel like you're being really diplomatic and I appreciate the position you're being put in. But are you a dad?

I am.

If your child had an emergency north of Valley Road, and you needed the fire truck to get out of the firehouse not when they could move cars with other squim schools available in the immediate vicinity do you feel this helps the fire this is a person this is a this is not it it's absolutely not appropriate i'm just a citizen i don't know what i'm just speaking from my heart here i understand but what you're doing is

what you're doing is you're you're asking him if he's a dad and then you're using that as the premise of your question and what you're doing is tying together an emotional reaction to something that this is factual based so please don't go there i i take it back i apologize i just i would love your personal opinion do you feel that having a swim school next to the firehouse

when there are other swim schools available in the immediate area, is better for the city of Montclair, specifically upper Montclair, or does it hurt it?

My personal opinion and my professional opinion are the same. We want to get to people as fast as we can. So whatever business would be there that would slow us down is like any other business in town or apartments in town that slow us down.

okay and I apologize I did not mean to cause offense or to get an emotional reaction I'm just a very concerned citizen thank you okay

Justin Jesser, right on Chestnut Street.

Can you spell your last name?

Jesser, J-E-S-S-E-R. Wasn't the traffic that took me a while. I have two questions for you, really appreciate it. At what point does the response time, if it becomes too long, actually impact the other branches or other fire departments? How do you measure that for that particular location?

When you say other fire departments,

No. So if that fire department has a current response time that you measure off of that your performance, if that starts taking significantly longer than in previous quarters, years, whatever the measurement is, how is that negatively impacting or impacting surrounding departments?

so maybe when you say departments you might be the other stations like the other country so yes so if we have a fire all the apparatus were a small fire department for the size of the town so everyone actually will be going to that so it's just the same time is time is important to us so which i understand but at which point does the resourcing does the necessity to kind of reevaluate the

kind of disposal that you have of those firefighters and the resources in that location change to be put on other parts of the town?

It's unfortunately a fluid thing, depending on where the call is, the severity of the call. Again, we can break these things down. I wasn't prepared to do that. But there's not like a benchmark breaking point. You know, it's just kind of things that are fluid.

And at which point would that necessarily kind of force you to say that is not necessarily the best location for us to have a fire department based upon the response? Like in your professional opinion and your experience saying it takes us too long to respond with the attention that we need to, with the urgency that we need to, and it becomes too much of a hurdle.

uh the firehouses were built you know that firehouse was built 120 years ago and we become we just like i said before we become adept at adapting um the reason that we have three firehouses in town a lot of the big a big part of that is the train tracks so the fire at the church I don't know if you know this or not the big fire at the church the closest fire trucks were sitting at the train tracks because it was rush hour watching the smoke billow up the fire trucks from upper Montclair beat the fire trucks from headquarters there so that's why we need the firehouses around town the way we do so is it a perfect location if a planner was to pick a spot and we've had studies done that wouldn't be it

So do you have all the information necessary to make that decision today?

I think we're coming off of the, I mean, I don't want to interrupt here, but the testimony was about an exchange of parking at a certain hour. And you're very gracious to come, but I'll defer to Attorney Neese as well. It seems like we're... You've been very gracious in terms of answering questions, but we seem to be somewhat remote from the testimony at this point. And again, I'm just...

I'm curious, how's this question far from that point?

Well, were you here for the testimony that he gave?

I've been watching on YouTube. I've been trying to get here as fast as I could.

Okay. The testimony indicated there were questions about change of shifts at the fire department and how the applicant was making his lot useful during those changes shifts for temporary parking. There has not been any testimony about overall traffic except an acknowledgement that traffic is an issue generally in that area.

Okay. So as the parking situation happens, as that impacts response times, all these things are tied together. I might not be understanding it.

I think it's pretty clear that what has been going on here has been an effort to make the deputy chief of the fire department into a traffic expert.

That's definitely not my case. My case is actually understanding the response time. I'm really good at using my own words. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. What I'm saying is that this witness was here for an hour already just to talk about a conversation that he had with the applicant. That was the original intent for the deputy chief to appear. And he's been asked all kinds of questions concerning off-site traffic conditions, which occur not necessarily because of the applicant, but occur because of all the other businesses, successful businesses, that are operating in Upper Montclair.

he's indicated that any anything that occurs traffic wise that slows him down is unfortunate and and he want he doesn't want that the none of the fire department wants so I I respectfully understand all right ask your question please the piece that just came down to is do you have the information necessary to make that decision of like great do we have the response times to make for that to make sense to say that location, that station, is no longer an efficient use to serve that part of the community, and we need to reevaluate that.

We have response times, but we haven't analyzed a location.

I think that's the concern, is how the parking and everything else folds into that. And that's what I appreciate.

Thank you. Are there any more questions from the audience? If not, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Thank you, Chief.

Attorney Trembulak, you're...

Yes, so we're prepared to proceed with our next witness, who is Devin Stone. Okay. He's going to swear you in.

Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Would you please state your full name and business affiliation for the record?

Devin Stone. I'm one of the owners, operators of SwimQuest.

Okay. Devin, when you refer to SwimQuest, you're referring to a legal entity known as SwimQuest LLC, correct? That's correct. And how long have you been an owner of that company?

Since 2018.

Is that when the company was formed?

That's correct.

So you've been an owner continuously since the company was formed until currently, correct? Correct. Okay. And SwimQuest owns and operates children's swimming schools, is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

How many other swimming schools does SwimQuest currently operate?

Four.

Okay, and can you tell us where those schools are located, what towns they're in, and how long they've been operating.

Yeah, so Whippany has been operating since 2018. Milburn's been operating since 2019. Livingston's been operating since September of 25. And then Westfield, we just opened, it's been operating since March of this year, 26.

several months I guess correct okay and with respect to those four other schools that you currently operate how many of those are located in downtown areas or business districts of those communities three of four so Milburn Westfield and Livingston okay and is it your company's intention to try to operate in business districts or downtown areas where possible yes that's correct okay is that one of the reasons that attracted you to this location on Valley Road in Upper Montclair yes that's correct anything else about that particular location that was appealing or attractive to swim quest just generally being in the downtown area do we have we've always been successful being in downtown areas so that's that's one of the main reasons okay so can you discuss in general you're familiar by the way with the operation of all the other schools that you mentioned the other four correct all right so can you discuss in general the type of classes and programs that are offered by swim West and also as part of that explain the differences between swim quest and other swimming schools, such as, I think there's one called goldfish swim schools, you know, what distinct, what, you know, what are your programs? What's your focus? What distinguishes you from these other larger swimming school operations?

Yeah, so as far as classes offered, it's pretty straightforward. There's three different types of lessons. So group lessons run at a three to one student to teacher ratio. So it's a maximum of three kids with an instructor. Semi-private is two total swimmers with one instructor. And then private lessons are one-on-one classes. For us, we've always been successful where there's less swimmers in a class with an instructor. They're getting more dedicated swim time, thus learning efficiently and at a faster rate. While I've never worked for any of the competitors, they do things a lot differently than us, a lot bigger class sizes, there's a lot more swimmers in the pool at once, where a majority of our lessons are private or semi-private class types.

So are you saying that the most students in a particular class would be three that's correct and with one instructor correct there always be one instructor whether there's three students two students or or or one is that correct correct okay so your emphasis is really on small groups that's correct and what are the ages of the children who typically attend your schools

so we start as young as six months I'd say the the majority of our program as far as ages is three to seven three to eight years old is the bulk of the program okay are there any you have students that are older than eight years old we do yeah okay but most of them you say are between ages three to eight correct okay

And is it the intention that you would operate this school on Valley Road if it were to be approved by the board in a similar manner to the way you operate the other schools with similar programs, similar class sizes, and similar operating hours? Correct. Okay. And how long is a typical class?

They're all 30 minutes.

They're all half hour classes? Okay. And is it typical that there would be or might be more than one class taking place in the pool during each of the 30-minute sessions?

Yeah, there are.

Okay. By the way, before I continue along that line, just a couple of general questions. Is the pool ever open to the general public?

No, it's not.

Okay. Do your schools ever have open swim hours where anyone can come and utilize the facility?

No.

All right. So it's always by appointment or by enrolling a student in a class that allows them to use the pool.

Yes, that's correct.

Okay. All right. I'd like you to discuss hours of operation in your existing schools and again the intention would be to operate the Montclair school with the same operating hours that you use for the other locations is that right that's correct okay so let's talk about your operating hours during weekdays can you tell the board what those hours would be

Yeah, so we're open Monday to Friday from 9 in the morning to 12 o'clock. And then our instructors are then on break from 12 to 1. We reopen 1 to 7.30. OK.

all right so let's let's take the first three hour segment you just mentioned nine to twelve o'clock in the morning based on your experience with other schools yeah how many classes would you anticipate taking place in a in the pool at any one time during those three morning hours during the weekdays anywhere from three to five lessons three to five lessons or three to five classes

Three to five classes per half hour.

Okay. And what would be the average number of kids in the pool at any one time during those morning 30-minute sessions between the hours of 10 to 12?

It varies depending on class type, but anywhere from five to eight kids in the pool per half hour.

That would be an average. That's correct. During the morning hours, five to eight kids in the pool during any particular hour?

Yes, correct, per half hour. Okay.

All right, you said the school is typically closed for lunch during 12 to 1. All right, so what about afternoon hours, say from 1 to 3 o'clock? How many classes would you expect to have students operating in the pool at any one time during those early afternoon hours.

So between 1 and 3 is still not peak hours. It's the same as 9 to 12. So again, we're doing 3 to 5 classes per half hour with, again, an average, depending on class type, 5 to 8 swimmers per half hour.

Okay. all right and then lastly from 3 to 7 o'clock I'm gonna guess that that's probably your busiest time but after school yeah 3 to 3 to 6 30 okay and you know how many classes would you expect to have during your three minute 30 minute sessions between the hours of 3 to 6 30

So we're doing anywhere from 12 to 18 swimmers in the pool roughly on average during peak times?

Okay. 12 to 18?

Per half hour.

Okay. Let's go on to weekend hours. What are your hours of operation on Saturdays and Sundays?

So we'll be running 9 to 2 o'clock.

Okay. And what classes are offered on weekends?

So as same group, semi-private, private class offerings, those are going to fall into peak hours again. So all the way from nine, we'll slow down after the afternoon hits, but between nine and 12, it's going to be that same 12 to 18 swimmers in the pool per half hour on an average.

Okay. all right and I understand that occasionally you offer you have birthday parties at your schools that's correct one of those typically held so they're only held on weekends generally three to five o'clock is is when birthday parties are held so usually two hours that's correct they're always two hours and is there a maximum number of students that are permitted your children that are permitted for the birthday parties yes a maximum of 20 kids that can attend the birthday party and you said those were would typically be what three to five o'clock Okay. Are you able to tell us how many birthday parties you typically have at your other locations or how frequent the parties are?

So they're not a frequent, they're not a giant part of our business. We're probably doing, we don't offer them in Milburn, so we offer them Livingston, Whippany, and Westfield. I would say between the three locations a month, we're doing anywhere from two to three birthday parties a month.

Are there any other events that take place similar to birthday parties or whatever where there would be larger groups of people coming to the pool? No, there's not. Can you discuss the safety measures that your company employs in operating the schools? I guess maybe starting with the description of the instructors, the training they receive, any certifications, etc.

Yeah, so our instructors are Red Cross, Lifeguard, First Aid, CPR, AED certified. A fifth of our staff are also salary instructors that have been with us for a long time.

I'm sorry, what did you say about a portion of the staff that are salary?

Yeah, so about a fifth of the overall staff are salary instructors.

Okay, and there's an instructor, if there are five groups in the pool at any given time, there would be a total of five instructors, one for each of the five classes, correct?

That's correct.

Okay. By the way, what other employee, other than instructors, what other employees do you have working in your other locations?

So typically we have one manager on site at all times and then one front desk associate.

So two other employees. That's correct. Okay. So you have the instructors and you have the two other employees. Where do you expect that your employees would park, employees working at this location on Valley Road?

So we plan on arranging offsite parking.

okay you're gonna implement procedures that yeah do you plan on you know on implementing procedures that would require all of your employees to park elsewhere not on the property itself that's correct they won't be parking on-site okay All right, so let's talk a little bit about maintenance of the pool. Can you discuss that? I understand, well, you can explain it, but I think there's some state requirements you have to comply with. Is that right?

Yeah, so we use Garden State Labs. They're a third-party tester to make sure that from a chemical standpoint of chlorine, pH, that we abide by all the health department code. So they come out weekly, test the pool, and that gets submitted to the local health department to make sure we're up to code.

And is that required by state law?

That's correct.

Okay. All right, are there any occasions where you have to drain the pool and then refill it?

No, there's not.

What happens in the event one of your students or children has an accident in the pool and soils the pool? How do you deal with that?

Yeah, so it depends, just for lack of a better way to talk about it, depends solid versus not solid. If it's stomach empty and throw up, we keep our pool at four parts per million chlorine at all times. We, in the case of it being a hard stool or stomach emptying, throw up, we shut down for a half hour. In the case of it being liquid stool, We actually shut the pool for the day, so it's closed for 12-plus hours. We bring the chlorine up to 20 parts per million before then bringing it back down, and then it has to get logged to reopen.

Okay, but you never have to, like, drain the pool in an event, something like that?

No, just basic backwash.

Okay. And are there maintenance vehicles that occasionally come to your schools to perform maintenance activities?

So we have a company that comes biweekly and does water chemistry and preventative maintenance. And they bring their own van and service the pool.

So they come in vans?

That's correct.

No large trucks or large maintenance vehicles, just a normal size van?

That's correct.

Okay. Twice a week, you said?

Bi-weekly, so they come every other week, twice a month.

Okay. What about delivery vehicles? How often you get deliveries and what type of vehicles are making the deliveries to your other locations?

So it's typically like Amazon. If we order lollipops or pool toys, something along those lines, and you're talking two to three deliveries a week, my wife gets a lot more deliveries than we get to the swim schools.

Okay. So typically Amazon delivery trucks or UPS deliveries?

That's correct.

Okay. No larger vehicles than that, I assume. Is that correct?

Nope.

Okay. Okay. Then I'd like you to talk about your company's involvement within the communities that you're currently operating. Do you typically get involved in supporting community activities in the towns you're in?

We do. So in the Whippany, Westfield, Livingston, all four locations, we do everything under the sun from Little League donations, Tricky Trace, silent auctions. We sponsor golf outings. We, a couple years ago, partnered with Elmwood Church out of East Orange. And in the last couple years, I wrote it down here before tonight, but we've done over 600 lessons to underprivileged youth. flexible scheduling. We bring them in and that's been awesome. So as far as outreach goes, I know we'd also plan on partnering with Reach Out Montclair to assist in, I guess, a lot of the underprivileged kids in the local area, getting them set up for lessons as well.

and those lessons typically offered at a discounted price we don't charge no charge okay correct and you anticipate working with reach out Montclair if this location is approved that's correct or to provide the service to you know lower income or disadvantaged children in this in this area is that right correct okay give me one second I think Oh if you're able to comment on this at your existing locations you're obviously dealing with young children who have to be driven to to the schools and picked up at the end of their classes is it common for students to come in carpools let's say or multiple students would be driven in the same car

I've observed from time to time that might take place a lot there's lots of siblings in the program a parent might have two kids that they're in private lessons and that's two kids two separate classes two private classes coming in one car so if that's classified as a carpool happens all the time carpool might not have been the right word but you know just trying to indicate that you know if you've got ten students coming at a particular time it doesn't necessarily mean ten vehicles Correct.

Okay. Okay, I think that's all I have.

Do any of the members of the board have questions for this witness? Nicole?

hi thanks for being here I just had a few questions for you we've heard a lot of confusion I think or I'm confused about I think going back to the very first day of testimony it was that parents drop off their kids and then walk around town I know we heard from the fire department that they're concerned about parents double parking to drop off their kids I know as a parent if I had a four-year-old there's no way I'm dropping off my kid I'm parking my car and walking in the building So can you just tell us how, with a little bit of detail, how that operates, how parents and kids come and what the parents are doing during the class?

yeah so the bulk of our age range again is three to seven years old so at those ages you're not unless you get like some wacky parents which I think we all can attest to from time to time you're not getting parents sending in three to seven year olds in what sounds like a busy street into the front of the building into them yeah so they're accompanied by their parents and do the parents stay at the school So it depends. For us, as far as policy goes, if it's a group or semi-private where three kids in a class group, two kids in a class semi-private, they're responsible for their swimmer because the instructor's rotating the students' turns incrementally throughout the 30 minutes. If it's a private, they're not required to be there. So they might go out and grab a coffee or something along those lines, go shopping locally.

Yes. And if you had to break it down, what would you say the ratio is privates to the others?

Yeah, that's one of the things we do a lot differently that people don't realize unless you've been with us is most of our program is semi-private to private lessons across all our locations.

And then I just wanted to, I think we've heard a lot about, you know, in Montclair, the master plan has a, I don't know, don't get mad if I use the word requirement. It's not a requirement, but you're supposed to have a front entrance on the road and businesses are supposed to, face the front and then you know we've heard a lot about having the back door and the like the greeting desk and the check-in desk closer to the back door than the front door and then you mentioned there's just one associate and then the manager so I guess I still get a little confused how it's going to operate with having a front desk associate, which is indeed not in the front, they're in the back because that's where the desk is, yet you're representing that you'll have that front door open at all times. Just how's that flow going to work and how's it going to be managed with this one employee?

Yeah, so we have a clear line of sight from where the back entrance is to the front entrance. For us, when parents come in the building, the first thing they're doing is checking in. It's like any activity that you do, and especially being around a pool, like it's not, I guess if it was like a jungle gym, it's a free-for-all of kids. Like around pools, you're not like, yeah, my three-year-old just run into the pool. So for us, any of the locations, parents come in, they check in at the front desk. We're going to have signs up too for that front entrance. So when they come in, please make sure you check in at the front desk to reinforce. Managers always on site over, like all of our managers sit with our front desk at our entrances. So yes, there's one front desk associate, but there's always two manager and front desk person checking swimmers in, setting up classes, and dealing with whatever the customer is asking.

And what would prevent you from moving that desk from the back door to the front door?

So I can't testify to that as I'm the operating guy. I can testify to any questions inside the building.

That is inside the building. This is the operation of the front desk. Why wouldn't you have that by the front door?

I would just defer that to my team as far as where the location is.

From an operational point of view, you're the operator. What would be the downside of having the greeting desk by the front door?

Well, I think that where the majority of parents are going to be coming in is where we have the desk.

In the back door?

Correct.

And why do you think that, given that your parking lot can't, not everybody who comes is going to fit in that parking lot, so they could be parking in many different places around the building. Why are you so confident that most people will be coming in the back door?

Where the parking is?

Well, your parking lot is one place, but I assume we're going to have to have people parking on the street because you're looking for a variance on parking. So I think we all agree people are not going to just park in your parking lot, correct? correct i mean and i know you have a parking person coming so presumably some people will park you know maybe on cooper on the other side of the street i don't know how well i don't want to throw straight names at you if you don't know so so again why why not what is preventing putting that desk by the front door as an operator i just believe that there's going to be a bigger portion coming from the back door of swimmers coming inside the building

And I don't want to answer the question for the witness, but Mr. Genova has previously testified that the intention was to have the drop-off pickup in the rear.

It sounds like there's no drop-off pickup because parents are parking and getting out of their car, as opposed to pulling up along the building and literally... When I hear drop-off pickup, I think of parents waiting, idling, and their kids jump out of the car. This does not sound like a drop-off pickup at all to me. This sounds like people parking, whether it's in your lot, in the lot behind, in the surrounding street. So the idea that there's this...

drop off pickup line that we're avoiding in the front of the building it doesn't as this witness testified we doesn't sound like that's the how the place operates all i'm saying is the prior testimony was that if you're going to have the desk in the front and that's going to be the main entrance area then you're just going to encourage cars to queue up in front of the school on Valley Road.

Queue up and do what? They have to park because the parents are getting out of the car to bring their kid into the school. I don't understand. When I hear a queue, I think of drop-off pickup. Parents aren't leaving the car.

I'm just telling you what the... I know what he said.

I'm questioning that. Okay. To me, I don't hear anything that sounds like a drop-off pickup or a queue. I hear people parking and walking their kids into the building. Is that what you testified? that's how we typically run okay so I I just I'm gonna go with that because I don't hear any evidence from the operator that there is indeed drop-off pickup and queuing okay that's all my questions thank you anyone else on the board have a question

In your other locations, have you experienced, especially like Millburn, Livingston, where you are located primarily in a downtown area but with larger parking, I think, available, have you experienced that parents will come for the 30 minutes or let's say five minutes before or five minutes after of their class and then not necessarily walk around while their child is being instructed but afterwards leave their car in the parking lot and then walk around town? and then kind of come back, or do you have any kind of just experience or plans to prevent that happening, or is it something that you allow, generally speaking, right? If somebody comes and parks, and then they can walk around after the fact.

So the only location that... So Milburn doesn't have a designated parking lot. The rest have... The rest of the locations have 30-plus parking spaces, so there's ample parking that you don't have to worry about. Milburn has no parking at all, and Busy downtown. So are you asking?

Do people park and stick around for a little bit, right? Not in the location, but do they leave their cars there after their classes are done?

I would say majority of parents leave and go to the next activity, whatever they have. But sure, they might be frequenting the downtown, go and get something to eat or go shopping. Right.

And it's larger, so you don't. It's not a concern. Correct. All right. Thanks.

Any other questions from the board?

Mr. Chairman, I have a question. Thank you. I believe you indicated earlier in your testimony that you were exploring off-street parking agreements or shared services with other surrounding properties. Is that referencing the municipal lot in the back or other private properties that have parking available? If you could kind of give the board a little bit more commentary on that.

So to my knowledge, we're going to be for staff, you're saying?

Correct. Yeah.

Yeah, we're gonna be making arrangements for staff to be not where staff will not be parking on-site We're gonna be making arrangements. I'm personally not going to be Making arrangements with other private parking lots wherever the case may be so I can't speak to that But I know staff will not be parking on-site.

Okay directed to the street or

All I know is that we're going to be making arrangements for them to park on, so I just am not going to be the one spearheading it. So I can't answer that question. Okay. Thank you.

Anyone else on the board have a question?

I mean, it's somewhat related to that, but how would you enforce this no parking inside policy with your staff? Like, would you fine them if they parked their car within the property?

So I guess the best example to use for that would be, so like Milburn, there's some street parking in front of the building, and we don't allow staff to park in front of the street, and we say you're not allowed to park in front of the street, and it's just, because that's our policy they don't so i guess if maybe they're new and they park there the first time you say hey you can't park there and you you enforce it um can i say like they're they might not do it by accident and then we move them but we're going to know from them being instructors for us and employees for us um and part of when we onboard them as a new employee that's one of the things just like we say it in millburn we'll be saying it for montclair to make sure that they're not parking on site right um okay

Can you speak a little bit more about how you talked about lessons for underprivileged youth? How many lessons would you be providing tentatively, and what times of day, which days of year? How are those programs organized?

Yeah, so like I said, we're going to be partnering with Reach Out Montclair as far as setting it up. So I can't speak to right now what the enrollment list looks like. I can tell you from 24 to 25, just with Elmwood alone, we did. 600 lessons at no charge there was no time restrictions on when they could swim it was more we just would find open spots for them on the schedule which we never had issues getting them in there awesome or work with have you requested a variance for any of your other locations on accounts of parking or

you know, to implement these buildings?

Yeah, I know we did for Milburn.

Which variance was that, if I can ask?

I'm just going to defer to my team just because I was not the one that spearheaded that either.

Okay. Related to parking? I'm just curious.

Yes, I believe so.

Okay. I'm sure there had to be because they have zero parking, on-site parking in Milburn, so.

Okay.

Yeah, I can get you that information in terms of the details on the variance.

OK. Any other questions from the board?

I just have a question for Arthur and Janice. If they represent or they're going to get arranged off-site parking and they're looking for a parking variance, is that something that can be a condition that we see evidence of? This is for the staff.

yeah absolutely we'll get parking testimony that testimony include how they propose to address staff parking and customer parking and depending on what they're proposing we can require that they provide you know copies of their arrangements etc okay thanks

Anyone else on the board? Okay. Any members of the audience have questions, please come forward.

Hi. Do you need my name again? Yes. Liz Zazzi, Z-A-Z-Z-I. So I just want to be clear. I'm not sure if it was you or if it was the attorney that represented the other four schools as being in busy downtowns. Who said that?

I asked him the question and he answered it. He said that three of them were in doubt.

Right, but then subsequently it seems like Milburn is the one that would most resemble what the situation is in Montclair in terms of like a busy street with not a lot of parking. Is that right?

In Milburn, I would agree. It's the closest comp, yeah.

And you also said that there was a variance involved with parking in the Milburn location?

I did.

And you're not aware of what that variance was?

Yeah, I would defer to my team to speak to specifics.

So we wouldn't be able to know that tonight? I can't give it. Where like in our situation, it should be 39 spaces, but you're asking for 11. like i said i can't speak to it all right and so um then because i did look up the street views of the four uh successful schools that you have and i didn't see anything that resembled the situation in on valley road in montclair do any of these four schools are any of them right next door to a busy firehouse none of the pools are next to a firehouse none of them okay are any of these successful schools around the block from a commuter train that regularly drops the gates and stops traffic not right next to no thanks those are my questions

Hello, Holly Felber, Barbara Eclectic. Hi, how are you?

Good, how you doing?

Good. I love pool safety. I love that people learn to swim. My first question is, how does the size of this pool compare to the size of the pools that are already open and running?

It's comparable. Yeah, I would say, so this one is going to be closest to Milburn. Specifically, it's 70 by 25, but they're similar.

Is it smaller than Livingston and Westfield?

Yes.

Okay, and then you stated that three to five lessons meant five to eight kids in the pool. And then you said, so from nine to 12 and one to three, you would have maybe three to five lessons and each lesson could have five to eight kids in it.

On average.

Plus the instructors, the five to eight instructors. If there's five to eight lessons going on, you would need five to eight instructors for those kids, correct?

It could be in a group, so it depends, because we do three to one groups.

So when you have 12 to 18 kids in the group, how many instructors does that mean?

So it could roughly be 10 to 12 instructors during peak times.

OK. And if you have that many lessons going on in the pool, is there someone who acts as a lifeguard and stands outside of the pool watching the whole pool?

So we don't have to, because of the pool dimensions and the way that the lessons are ran where it's, it's, they're small groups to private lessons, we don't staff lifeguards.

Okay. Why aren't there any parties in the Milburn location?

So the Milburn location, because of the way that it's built, we started having birthday parties there and it's essentially a rental of the facility and it gets destroyed. So just for adequate space, that's why we're not running birthday parties there.

Do you anticipate that this location in Upper Montclair would get destroyed during parties?

No, because we learned a lot from Milburn being our first build out and a lot of unused space that could have been used a lot better and then we could have had birthday parties there. So we don't foresee that being a problem here.

So when you say you have classes that last 30 minutes, when do they start? Do they all start on the hour, on the half hour? Do you stagger them every 15 minutes? What is the flow of those classes?

They run every half hour.

Every half hour, okay. And then do you have a contract that you have the parents sign when they sign their kids up?

Outside of waiver form, no.

Okay. Because I was curious about what you said about encouraging the parents to stay and watch their kids.

So they're required to.

So the parents are required to be there while the kids are in class?

If it's a group or semi-private.

Okay. And probably, what percentage is fully private versus semi to group?

So I don't have the data on private to semine group, but 70% of our program is made up of private lessons and semi-private lessons.

Okay, and the parents only need to stay there when it's a private lesson? Or they only don't need to stay there when it's private?

They don't have to stay on site if it's a private lesson.

But if it's semi-private or group, they have to stay on site? Correct. Okay, thank you. And you will be providing a coffee bar for the parents?

We plan to.

Okay. Do you want to bring new customers to Upper Montclair to patronize other businesses?

Like we do at all our locations, yes.

Okay, thank you.

Good evening all. Joe Borak, Penn Valley Place. Good evening. I'm just trying to get the logistics here. You have classes being held in the pool. The prior class, are there showers or are they preparing, getting cleaned up or whatever, getting ready to leave? And then if you have somebody in the pool, somebody who's left the pool in lockers, now do you have somebody coming in to get prepped, get in their bathing suits, get ready for when their half hour is up? So in other words, you've got three groups all at one time. Those who are in the pool, those who just left the pool, showering, cleaning up, and those preparing to get in the pool.

So I would say it's two classes. So the swimmers will check into the building, go in the changing stalls. Parents generally come five to 10 minutes I would say on average before their lesson. We bring them in at the start of the class and then afterwards they get changed in the changing stalls or use the shower.

All right, but basically it's like having three sessions constantly rotating for one swim session. Those in the pool, those who have left, and those who are about to get in.

No, because, so maybe you'll get a little bit of overlap on a third with parents that are coming five to ten minutes before, but no, generally it's the swimmers in the pool and then the swimmers that finish their lesson.

In your other facilities, what

is the most occupancy that you've had at the height of your times in other words swimmers staff uh i'll leave it at that i'll exclude the parents um i would say it depends on the location um like whippany is junior olympic size pool with six lanes and with so we might hold more classes at Like if it's a peak time, we'll have more swimmers in the water there. Milburn, for example, there's less pool space, so we can't operate as many classes as we do at the Whippany location.

Okay. But just capacity-wise, like if you were having a birthday party, you were mentioning a certain number of swimmers and people being there, including the parents. Are there any other classes going on at the same time?

With birthday parties, no. So the birthday party is just the, it's after lesson hours, generally from three to five on weekends. I say generally it could go four to six, that's the latest usually. It'll just be the birthday party inside. So that's probably where there's gonna be the most people in the building is when there's the 20 kids plus some staff for the birthday party.

Okay, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

Hi Polly Morris off hi so had a couple questions for you so being a parent of two girls that had swim lessons at the YMCA before got demolished here in Montclair I remember getting there several minutes early They had their swim lesson and then it was the whole day drying off, changing, showering. It's winter time, drying the hair and all that. So that five minutes is not applicable at the end because it could be half an hour until everyone is, you know, dried up, especially in the winter months, you know, to go outside. So being a math person, I'm just doing the math and saying, well, if you have 11 parking spaces and now you have this big overlap, even in good weather, you're still going to have an overlap on the tail end and you have 11 parking spaces. You really don't have 11 parking spaces because there's an influx of the new lesson people coming in with the old people still sitting there wrapping up their kids. Is that correct?

I guess it's dependent. I would say to your point, yeah, there's some parents that take a little bit longer. Majority of our swimmers are on to the next activity. They're in and out the door. But for sure, in the wintertime, if there's somebody that has long hair and they need to get their hair dried, they might be... staying a little bit longer I can tell you that I work directly out of the Milburn location seven days a week and it has we don't have parking there like I said and and we we don't have an issue with that is I guess the best I can attest to thank you so regarding with an a so one of the things that you said that bothered me a little bit in the beginning is that you know your locations are in downtown areas

And I would really question that, because Whippany on Route 10 is a commercial office space. If you do Google Maps and you do an aerial of this location, it is a commercial building. I counted 140 parking spaces. 140. So I don't know how this even relates to Upper Montclair, which is a village. where we have already enough problems with parking. So to compare what that location to Montclair is not a comparison, examples, at least, you know, and then if you take Taylor Street, which is Melbourne, I would argue that you have on street parking, it's a very long street, you have parking there. If you look on Google Maps again, you have really large parking lots, municipal parking lots, very close by. So it's not the same situation at all. um yes you have on street park are you um are you going to ask a question ma'am yeah so so my question is is it really apples to apples to say that you're in town when in fact taylor street is a back street to milburn

So just to talk about Milburn, I guess specifically, we're right off Milburn Ave. There's school right down the block, so there's lots of traffic around us, if that's what you're asking, that there's not traffic that goes through there?

I'm saying there's a lot more parking available. If you look on Google Maps, there's parking in multiple areas there. That's municipal law.

Yeah, so there's one close-ish municipal lot and then parents will find parking like streets over where then they'll just walk up with their swimmers.

So if you're basically required to stay with your kids and there is overlap. And everyone now is racing to find other parking spaces because you have so much turnover. I just don't understand. Here's my question. Why would you want to pick a location like upper Montclair? To me, it feels like you're trying to shove like a square peg in a round hole. It's just, you know, over the mount, why wouldn't you like consider another location which has adequate parking not to not next to a firehouse over the mountain in Burma Cedar Grove is a massive swim school. Are you? Are you in Montclair to compete with them? I don't understand why you would pick this location. It's just, it's really pushing the limits of and this variance is requiring a lot for all of us that are business owners around there to use up our parking spaces for our customers for people that are going to sit inside with their kids.

so for me as as an operator um we have swimmers that come from montclair too and i've had them i've done this 15 plus years and those parents always tell me like go to montclair it's going to crush there and you guys like when i tell you when we go into neighborhoods like we know everyone coming in the building we know our parents um and Milburn, we know the neighbors who maybe some of them didn't love us at first, and now I shovel them out during the winter months. So I think we're going to be an awesome addition to the town. I know what my program provides as far as teaching a kid a skill that's going to ultimately save his life, and I think we'd be an awesome addition to the town.

Okay. Thank you.

Just one comment. We will address all questions and so forth, but if questions relate to parking, there is a parking consultant that will be giving testimony. I just thought I'd mention that. It might be appropriate to ask questions about parking specifically after that testimony, but I'm not saying that questions couldn't be asked of this witness about parking.

hi i'm actually my name is jane wood i'm a resident of montclair i have a business jane wood but i do frequent the businesses i walk i drive and so and i'm really concerned um one of the things that i keep hearing you're talking about how unique you are and how and um you talked about when they have private lessons that they can lead the kids that would open more parking As a grandparent, I have used the schools around here, this one of the schools, which several are like 3.5 miles away. We have plenty of them, no problems getting into them. We've been really happy with them. The one at MSU we've gone to, which is 1.5 miles from your place. Splish splash, you can see the Grove, which is 3.2 miles. And we have a new one opening at 4.2 miles away on June 17th. I've gone to all semi-private lessons, but I see group lessons there, I see private lessons there, and I can't even tell you when I've seen anyone drop them off. Parents, grandparents are concerned, no matter what age, even for a private lesson. So you're telling me that these programs are unique in that your private lessons

parents are going to drop them off or do you think it will probably comply with what i've seen where most people feel more comfortable leaving staying there with their kids i would agree in that a lot of parents stay with their kids but lots also don't i've i'm a teacher myself for 15 plus plus years i'll i'll get nice i mean instructor swim instructor um a little different but i i've i have kids yeah yeah totally understand but I have families that I've worked with personally for years that they'll give me let's say I worked with the older it's a family of three I worked with the older two kids they'll give me when that's the third kids turn to swim and that kids six months when we start they'll give me the baby and then go get coffee like it's nothing so I would agree with you 100% a lot of parents and guardians do stay lots also will will go out and and they use that time to in their crazy busy lives to go get a coffee, go get something to eat, go shopping, run an errand real quick.

Okay. And the other question I had is you were saying that you would restrict the instructors from your parking lot. And you said you don't let them park in front of your business. So basically you're protecting your business, but you only have a plan of where all those employees will be parking. So they'll just be buying for all the spots that people are already desperately looking for now. Is that my understanding?

So as far as where our staff's going to be parking?

Not for your business because you're going to preserve those 28% of what's allowed, those 11 spots. You're going to protect those spots but then it's just kind of everyone fighting for those few spots we have that are existing right now. Is that my understanding?

So we're going to be making arrangements for staff to park.

Like what kind of arrangements?

Whether it's working with private businesses, something along those lines. It won't be, again, me spearheading it, but we're going to be making arrangements for staff to park off-site.

I thought I understood. You said you wouldn't be doing private businesses. I misunderstood that. I misunderstood that part. You will be working and getting private?

As potentially one of the options.

Okay. And my last question, you said you don't do open swim, you don't do public swim, but these parties, there will be kids that may be in your class, may not be attending, right? And you're saying those are up to 20?

Correct.

And then how many staff members are there that day?

Anywhere from three to five guards. We typically will call them guards. They're usually like our swim instructors who are all again. Three to five? Three to five, yeah.

So now we're up to 25. And then any other staff?

Maybe a manager on site, like the organizer of the party.

So you said like two to three Saturdays a month we would have at that time. You said two to three times a month.

Between four locations, or no, between three locations, because Milburn, we don't offer birthday parties.

Okay, but that would be open to whatever you can get, I guess. Scheduling. Okay.

Hasn't been the average in the last eight since we opened 2018, but correct.

Warren Ross again. I'm all for swimming. I coach swimming, swim instructor, I'm a national swimming competitor. I think Montclair would be great. I just don't understand why this location and i don't think that it's been thoroughly thought through where the parking and all the use is going to be but i have two questions i looked up a map quest before i came here is it correct that in millburn you're on taylor street not the main street that there are 15 parking spaces just east of your building and 43 spaces right next to your building on the west That's what MapQuest shows. It shows a huge parking lot just to the west, contiguous to your building, and 15 to the east.

There's a municipal lot that's a little bit farther down Taylor Street. The other one, I'm not 100% familiar with.

All right, but if you look at MapQuest... I'll go over with you some other time but they look like they're right there right right next to the building my second question is I'm concerned about parking in the plaza particularly because the cars are going to exit into that that lot so you said in peak sessions there'll be 10 to 12 instructors one manager one front desk person there could be 12 to 18 swimmers per half hour at peak And there could be another peak coming in for 12 to 18, and the next group arriving to get in while the current ones are swimming. So that adds up, in my book here, to 36 to 50 people at peak seasons, not counting parties. And I just don't think Upper Montclair can handle that many. Am I understanding those figures correctly?

During peak time, you had 10 to 12 instructors and then up to 18 swimmers per half hour.

Thank you.

Hello.

Hi. I'm Mimi Weaver and I know some of you but I don't know all of you. I'm so thankful to the residents of what they have brought up because it feels like how someone said a peg into a square. And I'm only praying that this board here really is awake and smart and will think. I have a couple of questions that have come up as people have talked, and I really came here for something which I'll only address at the end. When you say that this is a very unique town, I'm sure you have gotten, and I sense that you don't live here in Montclair, but it's a unique town. So when you say that you give I'm going to use the word scholarship. I don't know if that's the word you used for children to come in. Is it all at a one-time program that you offer to children who you're calling disadvantaged? Or is this ongoing that it's for children who will be of need? Do you offer scholarship? I come from a sports family where it's very important that children Tell me a little bit more about where you're coming from.

Yeah, so for us, the big one was Elmwood Church out of East Orange. So we offered that ongoing. It wasn't like a...

Together at the same time?

Oh, at the same time of day? No, it was like spread out seven days a week.

And the children were offered transportation to be able to get to the pool?

No, their parents would provide transportation.

Okay. You may know that it's not so easy to get to Upper Mount Clair onto Valley Road. It's not a central location of Mount Clair. And I'm sure you know that. For some of the off-street parking, I'm going to just address that a little bit because I live on Cooper Avenue. Cooper Avenue has a very large church with a school which is expanding and is going to be going into the late afternoon hours takes up a lot of parking on that side on that part of the street and I I when you say that your staff is going to be parking on the street I'm just seeing everybody buying for parking on that part of Cooper Avenue I see it as an issue don't know if Cooper Avenue is close to where CVS is I'm thinking maybe your staff is going to kind of squeeze their cars where CVS or when Jason tire is I mean it's I didn't come here to talk about parking but it really is an issue so I came to talk about senior citizens Cooper Avenue and that first part of Cooper Avenue it's all senior citizens who still have lived there for maybe 40 something years it's only one or two younger families we are all looking for places to swim the closest places to swim for physical therapy for seniors who need physical therapy is 40 minutes away Think differently, open your minds.

There's so much here for you. Do you have a question for the witness?

Yeah, have you thought about serving senior citizens?

As much as I would love to, we don't offer, we unfortunately don't offer any open swim, adult swim.

For you guys, and not to think of Valley Road. We can drive and we will go elsewhere. Again, Cooper Avenue is 50% still with families that have their children out of college, and we are all looking to find to stay healthy.

Thank you.

I know it's a long time, and I appreciate the question. Of course. I've got two little kids who actually go to one of your competitors, and... transferred in their life I guess one of the things that I really want to understand is the staffing and tell me about you explained the day really well earlier which I appreciate but give me the breakdown of their scheduling and how many are full-time versus part-time and how that shifts throughout the day I don't understand them yeah so I staff I would say the age range would be

14 years old when they can start working. The instructors have had them in their 50s. For us, as far as training goes.

It was more like the way that their day would happen.

you know for four hours and they're off and there's someone else who comes on is there the full day big time varies um it could be nine to twelve um for full-time staff for example um they'll work like a typical nine to five shift um but i have instructors that just work the mornings from nine to twelve and i have instructors that come in in the afternoon so for parity maybe using milburn as an example can you talk about the structure that you have there for the staff so we have an understanding of the way that that structure understand the ebb and flow of folks that are your staff yeah so same same it's gonna be the same thing so it's what we ran out yeah so well it varies so it's hard to like it 9 to 12 o'clock and then it could be it's like some instructors are 1 to 6 30 and some are 3 30 to 6 30 um

for what rough numbers which part of the day the entire day no for those like for those kind of chunks that you have so first thing in the morning you have x amount of people that are on that are full time half of them would leave at lunch go on to the rest of the day like the way that structure would happen

so the morning like I said there's can be three to there could be two but three to five roughly instructors in the morning and then I would say some some might start answer because the days truly do vary yeah And I don't have, like, if I have my schedule in front of me, I can bring that information and give you, like, a template of Monday through Sunday, what that looks like. But just off the top of my head.

Which I understand. And I think the ebb and flow is kind of an interesting thing to understand the impact and the support that you have.

Yeah, I would truly say, like, think 9 to 12, some come off, then some work full 9 to 5. Some are, again, 1 to 7.30, some 3.30 to 7.30, weekends 9 to 2. Got it.

I think it's the other question I have for you, completely different from staff, is... Talk to me about the other locations with regards to waste, with regards to trash receptacles, how that actually happens. Because I know one of the variances, I believe, was with regards to trash for this particular piece. So is everything on site, or did you ask for a variance in any of the other locations?

I can't speak, I'll defer to whoever spoke about it in the past in regards to this, and then I can't speak to if we needed a waste variance for any of the other locations. I can get that information for you, but typically... Is everything on site for the rest of the locations?

With regards to like a giant trash receptacle or...

So for Whippany, Whippany gets a bin that's taken out. Milburn gets garbage cans that get pulled to the curb. Westfield is a big bin outside. And then Livingston is a big bin outside too.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

I have just a suggestion. The verbal testimony about parking and demand, talking about in structures during certain hours, there are a lot of numbers that are hard to remember. And I think a lot of the questions relate to not being able to remember all the numbers that were presented verbally. So there is a parking study that's been done. I would suggest that when there's a parking study in terms of it sampling available parking, that what should be done is a parking demand creation in terms of data written down should be presented so we can evaluate a cohesive set of numbers with respect to demand. that might make it easier for the board, it might make it easier for the audience to be able to get through these multiple questions about parking. And we've entertained lots of questions and we haven't gotten to the parking testimony yet. And I'm just saying that just in the interest of time, everyone's time to be able to get through this. So for example, if the applicant has given us all of these numbers about what demand is, just write that down and then we we look at that demand data against the parking data that's being presented in terms of the available spaces well i suppose i can take that because this i'm out of wine here yeah Well, Stonefield present is a public document right now. There's a parking study that's been online for at least about a week or so, Janice. And my understanding is that we were going to get testimony tonight from the parking consultant. So again, I'm not trying to derail the questions about parking, but it would be good to hear their testimony about parking first. I know I'm not. It's really a question for the board. I can't ask the agree.

I agree.

Attorney Tremblay, would you be amenable to that? We can't disallow questions moving forward with respect to this witness, but it's just a suggestion on my part. So I guess what I'm saying is that there will be an ability to ask questions about parking, and it would be advantageous to do that after we hear testimony about parking, although this witness also has knowledge of parking. of what his demand is. We'll have testimony in terms of supply. I'm saying let's write the demand down and then compare it against the supply. So again, I need your support, Arthur. What I would suggest is that we'll keep the questions going for now. But just those that are questioning, maybe just keep that in mind.

Okay, I have a question. I worked for many years in marketing research, and we used to do marketing studies to determine whether or not there was a want or a need for something. Have you done or would you consider ever doing a marketing study to see if Montclair would like this?

So I just go off hearsay of clients that have made the trip over and shown support and have told me it would be so awesome to have this come to town.

Yeah, well, based on what I'm seeing here, I think the community is definitely not in favor of this. And I think you might want to do some research and find out about that because I don't think it would be welcome here.

I think that the board should consider that no hi Jane Hansen can we confirm the hours of operation of this particular site in Montclair will it be 9 to 12 1 2 3 then nine to two on the weekends is that it is that is that confirmed because to your point we need to know what the hours of operation are before we can even consider what the you know the effect of the parking study yeah I can confirm so nine to twelve then again one to seven thirty Monday to Friday one to seven thirty okay So nine to 12, one to 7.30, okay. And then on the weekends?

Nine to two.

Okay, great, thank you.

Oh sorry, one other question.

The preventative maintenance that is done on a bi-weekly basis, will that require a truck with some kind of equipment to park nearby?

They'll use like Sprinter van or pickup truck.

I'm sorry, they'll use what?

Spinner van or pickup truck is the two trucks that I've seen them come out to.

But will they have to park in the lot?

They don't have to, no.

They don't have to carry heavy equipment or anything like that into them? No. Okay, thank you.

Hello, Graham Wyville.

What was your name again?

Devin.

Devin, how you doing? Good, how you doing? All right, I was just, a couple questions. How did you start your first school?

So I started teaching when I was 14, and then I taught at a different swim school, built up in backyard pool following in the summertime, and then that snowballed into finding my own location, which started out as hotel rentals, and then from there, eventually having standalone locations.

So how did those first schools get funded?

Through a partner.

You had a partner, okay. Is that the same partner you have with this swim school?

It is, yes.

Okay. And so, all right, thanks. Would you ever teach, so you used to teach swim lessons in your backyard, you said, or that public pool, maybe?

If they brought us in as a guest, yes.

So...

would you ever teach these swim lessons at a public pool now?

No. I think the questions have to be directed toward his testimony that he made this evening. Not I think, I know. So if you've got questions with respect to the testimony he's made, that's appropriate.

Right. So you mentioned earlier that swimming's a life-saving skill. Do you believe that?

Yeah, a thousand percent.

And so do you think that's something that people should have to pay for?

What's the, yeah, objection. What's the purpose of this?

It's a valid question. Do you want to answer?

I object to the question.

I mean, what does that have to do? Do you think that you should have to pay to learn how to swim?

There's no testimony at the cost of what.

I'll just say I was lucky enough to turn it into something that went from.

So how would you define the success of your school?

I'll stay to the testimony.

How would you define the success of your schools? You said you have success in busy downtown areas. How would you define that success?

I would define my success as teaching a skill that's going to save their life. For me, the most important thing is getting a kid to be able to swim safely.

Given what you've heard today, why would you still want to continue

Because I think it's going to be an awesome addition to the town, just like it's been everywhere else we've went.

Do you think that? That's fine. You're entitled to think that. So you're disregarding the things that people have said today, the opposition? There have been questions.

I think my suggestion about not asking questions about parking was wrong. You've got to get your questions a little bit more focused, if you may, on the testimony that this gentleman has made with respect to the way he operates his swim school. Please.

I mean I did ask all right well how would you dispose of the chemicals so the company that comes out takes the whatever's main line and someone earlier suggested that they would like to see you provide swimming to seniors What is preventing you from doing that?

It's just not how I've operated the business. The focus has always been on kids.

Right.

Okay. Thank you. Okay. Attorneys, do you have another witness that you... We have another question.

Hi. Are any of your other four locations located a block from a residential area? I mean, this is less than a block from a residential area. It's all homes and already, as you've heard, a lot of stress on parking because of all the businesses, schools, churches in the neighborhood. Are any of your other schools in a similar location?

Yeah, Melbourne directly across the street is all residential.

Okay, I'll save the rest of my questions for the parking expert. One other question. Right next to a firehouse on a very busy main artery, you're saying people are going to come in through the back door primarily, but they could also come in the front door. Is that correct? That's correct. But people are going to come in through this very narrow driveway off of Valley, thinking they might get a parking space in the back. They'll see they're all full, but then they have to continue and go into the plaza. Is that correct?

Can you repeat the question one more time?

So somebody's coming to bring their kid in. They're looking for a parking space. They know you have, I think, 11 spaces is what you're planning for behind the building. Is that correct?

I'll defer to the parking expert.

11 or 13 spaces, however many there are. If they pull in alongside the building and they get to that little area behind the door that you want them to come in and they see all those parking spaces are full, they have no choice but to continue out into the plaza area, right? so if there's a lot of cars coming down that snaking driveway is there a potential for cars to get backed up because five eight ten parents are coming all at once to drop their kids off and is it a potential for that to back up onto Valley Road yeah I would say from opera yeah correct I would defer to the parking expert I can speak to the operation of the facility I think that's a concern I'm surprised there isn't a traffic study required because given how busy Valley Road is the potential for a eight or 10 cars from both directions trying to get into that driveway, I just see a great potential for backup and a jam to clear.

Mr. Knox, why don't you save that question for the parking expert who has experience with that.

Thank you.

Thank you, Attorney General.

Okay, our next witness will be Matthew Seckler.