Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

us. I can hear you. All right. You said we had a Miles somewhere as well. He was here. We saw him. Miles. [clears throat] Oh, I don't see him.

have me. I'm still kind of working, so I'll spare you all the view of the plumbing and but I will be listening if you need me. Great. Sounds good, Miles. Thanks. Yep. Okay, we are live streaming. All right. I will call to order this Thursday, April 23rd Moab City Let me start again. Meeting of the Moab City Planning Commission. It's been a long day. Uh at 6:03 p.m. uh Thursday, April 23rd, 2026. Um first item of business is citizens to be heard. I There is no one here in chambers. Um and I will backtrack slightly and say that in attendance this evening here in chambers we have uh city staff Johanna Blincoe and Kelsey Garcia. We have planning commissioners Steve McClure, Shaylee Bryant, myself Kylie Mellinger, Jill Tatton, and Carolyn Conant is joining us on Zoom. We also have our city council liaison Miles Lafton joining us on Zoom as well. Um going back to the agenda, we do not have anyone here for citizens to be heard nor did we receive anything via email. Uh next item is approval of minutes from our last meeting. Uh this is our April 9th meeting, 2026. Uh those minutes as usual are in the packet. Um folks have had a chance to look those over for accuracy. We can entertain a motion. I will make a motion to approve the minutes for April 9th, 2026. Okay, we have a motion to approve the minutes from Shaylee. Is there a second? I'll go ahead and second that. All right, a second from Jill. Uh any discussion or corrections? I didn't see any. Me either. All right. Uh all in favor of the minutes uh approving the minutes from our April

9th, 2026 meeting, please say I. I. I. I. I. I. All right. Uh motion passes 5-0. Fabulous. Thanks, everyone. All right. Moving right along, we have several discussion items this evening. Our first discussion item is an update from the Moab area housing task force. This is their annual update. This is item 4.1. Uh task force chair, take it away. Okay. You've never actually presented on Google. I don't know how I start this. Your slideshow, you have to click up there. Yeah, we're on the top right. Okay. Slideshow button. And I'm going to come over here cuz I'm wearing a different hat.

[laughter]

Um I'm now wearing my uh housing task force chair hat. All right. Hello, Johanna. House force task force house force house force house force housing task force chair. Guys, I can't speak today. Can't speak today. You're doing a great job. So, the Moab area housing task force um was made through a 20 2009 interlocal agreement between the city, county, and HASU. And their purpose is to carry out um write and recommend lead agencies to carry out the action steps of the housing the affordable housing plan. Um the task force has written two plans, one in 2017, one in 2023. Um both of which provide goals and action steps for the city and county. Um we also host educational events. Um and advocate for affordable housing legislation. And then when the city and county need help carrying out the task force, we also step in. Um for example, last year the housing task force was tapped to help the county rewrite their HDHO ordinance. So, last year we had one planning commissioner, one city councilor, and two city staff members who actively attend our main meetings. And then we had our city uh subcommittee uh which is comprised of Carolyn, Miles, Caitlyn, uh Corey and I, and then some other community members. Um

the city subcommittee provides a priority list specific for housing every year. Um and then that trickles down to the housing task force to do some work for them if they so choose. Um and it guides city council's decisions. Um staff-wise this last year we did the second housing survey and we worked on the housing pipeline. And then uh Caitlyn hosted the housing panel which had amazing attendance. These are the committees of the task force. We got executive, housing data which puts together the pipeline, deed restriction committee uh which is currently looking into voluntary deed restrictions. And then we have the event committee and county and city committees. The priorities that our city committee has come up with this year are development of Walnut Lane, finding a deed restriction administration program so that we can handle our AEH and ADU deed restrictions, the code update, and then the bottom two kind of fit together um investigating the housing toolbox um and how those might help us secure ongoing housing funding. Um those acronyms are planned affordable development, planned unit development, WAHU, and tax increment financing. Um the WAHU is a workforce housing uh for overnight rentals in exchange. Okay, at this point you might be

wondering what's this update have to do with planning commission. So, this is my formal invitation for anybody to join the city subcommittee. Um we've already set our priorities for this year, but um you can set the priorities of the priorities and tell the housing task force what we need help on. Um you guys can also, if we're running into issues during meetings, you can, just like you can request things of staff, you can also request things of the city committee to research, look into, write up a proposal for anything housing related. Okay, and then this is the housing pipeline. Um this was done April 1st. So, we have had a little bit of movement since then, but I'll go ahead and walk through this for you guys. Um the proposed column is anybody who's come to the office and just uh spitballed with us. Um vesting application is somebody who has submitted a site plan application. And then vesting approval is when their site plan is approved. Building permit hold happens after somebody has had a building permit for over 6 months and hasn't um called to do any more inspections. Um building permit active is what's they're currently working right now. And then recently built is within the last year. Um that middle column townhouse town townhomes and condos is for developments that have a little mix of both.

And then at the bottom there we have our AEH um units that which are the active employment and then we have affordable which are our new light tech units. If you're interested, I have a breakdown of the active cuz that's exciting. With their names and addresses and such. I can also send this out for you guys to comb through cuz it's pretty interesting stuff. That and that's the end if you have any questions. Quite a lot happening. Mhm. Lions back is on this list? Yes. Technically counts as housing. What does it count as? The last bit? Mhm. Yes, they're in the resort column. Okay, not part of the acting mayor portfolio. Okay, cool. Yeah. Wait, what? Yeah, no. Uh what is the time commitment two guys would be looking for to be on a sub committee? It is 1 hour a month. And some months we don't have too much, so we cancel. When is it usually? Um 4:00 to 5:00 on Wednesdays. I can't remember which Wednesday of the month. Wednesdays. But that would be coming to the the actual task force meeting, not the sub committee meeting. That's the sub committee meeting. That's

the sub committee meeting. Uh housing task force meetings are 11:30 to 12:30 at in county commission chambers first Thursday of the month. Those don't really work for me. Yeah. Wednesdays I'm out. Like Wednesdays are my busy day at work and I can't come during the school day. I promised to say no to everything until our building's built. That's a good [laughter]

I've been told to say no for the rest of the year. Then our building will be done and I can then I can be on more things again. Carolyn, are you still on the task force or have you Thank you for everything you do with this. been on it still? I have, yeah. Um Yeah, Johanna's been doing a great job as chair, which started up more recently. And um I've been participating on the city sub committee as well as the voluntary deed restrictions work group slash sub committee. So yeah, like Johanna said, there's the monthly all housing task force meeting and then the sub committees seem to meet about once a month, but kind of dictated by the activities that are going on. And sometimes there's a little bit of homework outside those meetings and sometimes there's not, though. Awesome. Thanks for the update, Johanna. Absolutely, chair of the housing task force. Task force. Oh, hello, Johanna. City uh city planner.

[laughter]

Good to see you again. Nice to see you. All right. Thank you. Yeah, I really the resources of the housing task force have been incredibly useful through all the evaluations, all of the determinations the city's made, the county, um local nonprofits. Those numbers and the updates that you guys provide every year are incredibly um valuable, I think, to quantifying both the scale of the the problems we have and then how much progress we've made, too. I think it's really great to see, so thank you. Um and thanks to everybody on the task force. All right. Moving on. Let's turn to our next discussion item, which is 4.2, discussion of amendments to the Moab City Planning Commission bylaws. Uh this is something we sort of briefly flagged last time, but uh is the actual stuff tonight, Johanna. Yeah, so we're not going to be voting on anything. Um just taking your guys's comments to work in um to the actual voting item at our next meeting tonight. So hopefully everybody has got a chance to read through this. And I can turn it over to you all to discuss if anybody had any other suggestions or we can go straight to the proposed redlines. Whatever you all prefer. Okay, moving to the redlines, but that's where I'm at. But I have a couple of um comments. Um under 3.6 there was just some redundant language. It says vacancy opening.

So I think it can just be vacancy or opening. And then um under either 4.5, which describes membership, or 1.3, which describes duration of term it could be helpful or not, curious uh for others' thoughts to specify um the reappointment process, cuz there's just language around terms not to exceed 3 years. Um so something like terms not to exceed 3 years um consecutive reappointment you know an option by the determination of the mayor, something like that. And then also if we think there should be a maximum number of terms um that a single planning commissioner can hold, then that might be either of those places would be a good spot to include that if we think that would be a helpful part of the bylaws. I think

And then maximum number of terms might be state law. That might be set by state law. Um the fact that there isn't one Yeah, it doesn't say anything. Yeah. But I don't I I I don't think we should check if that's something we want to add in. We should check that that would still comply with state law. Um because yeah, I'm not sure for for a municipal like an appointed administrative municipal body that might there might be something and I can check that if that's something we would like to suggest adding in. Um but sorry, go ahead, Carolyn. I just wanted to flag that before I forgot when you moved on. Yeah, no, or if you know, if it is dictated at the state level, I think it would still be helpful to include in here so we kind of have all the rules in one place, especially as we're doing an update to come into accordance with the state new state requirements. Um and the last thing was in 7.4, which is about um remote participation. I don't know if this is very important or not, but the process described for um sort of like roll call or establishing attendance is a little bit different than what we usually do, where this the bylaws describe um each person kind of announcing themselves and their name verbally, and usually we just have Kaya go through attendance both in person and virtually. So that was just a small discrepancy that I noticed, but I don't know if it matters. Yeah, and that's that's been in there, so we've just technically not been doing it correctly, but And we can do that. It'd be nice to hear everyone's voice at the beginning. I don't have to stumble through. Look [laughter] at everybody's names. I got to remember names. You know us as Brunaugh, of course. Um

in in C in 3.5 for removal of service um acting with the intent to influence a land use decision or an appeal of a pending land use. Is appending the right word? Well, you know, that's funny. I copied and pasted it from the bill, so Oh. Maybe they wrote it wrong, but I can absolutely I'm just curious. I can absolutely I am not familiar with that term in that context, but [laughter] I it feels like a weird word to have there. It does sound like appending. It'd be like a It should be a pending land use, not

Like should be a space there and one less P. Yes, it is technically considered a potential update or change. Yeah, that's the thing. I'm I it's probably a term of art, but I just wanted to flag it cuz it confused me. Um Great. Bias risk administrator judicial executive email those. Excuse Yes, appending refers to adding, attaching, or joining information, documents, or data. Well, yeah. Like that's a real word. I'm just Right, but I don't know if that's the word that they meant there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard it. Like append a document to the other document. I've heard that, but it's a weird use of it. I'll check the final code. Yeah, I wonder if it auto corrected or something. Well, yeah. Uh is this something is the 3.5 is that something that the state decided to add to all Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I will uh note what is mine and what is just copy paste. So in Yeah, 3.5 E is added by me um and uh 3.6 and 3.7 are my language, but it is required that we have the procedures for both of those in um this document. So, I would be happy to hear any language. Would it be helpful in e to actually explain the amount of absences?

Do that later. Mhm. Uh and I get that it would be redundant, but it's Yeah. sometimes nice if you're being to be really clear in a removal process of like not to exceed this many absences. Sure, yeah. Or it could say see section blah blah blah. I like that better. I would say uh exceeding amount of excused or unexcused absences as articulated in section blank or something like that. That works.

Wonderful. See supra section 6.3. Which is right before it. See infra then. Not supra. We don't need to lawyer this. Sorry guys. Um Great. So, point of clarification. Um so, the procedure is actually that the mayor appoints they recommend the commissioner and then the council gives the thumbs up, I'm pretty sure. Okay. We should double check on that because the council typically would vote on the mayor's recommendation. Got you. I think is how it technically works. But, it goes in front of council for some reason for something. Oh, yes. I remember. Is that still Is that Is this a change in code?

This would be us It's It's like uh the state law just said you need to outline what your procedure is. This is the same Not saying it has to be a city fire Z. Yeah, we should double check because I think it might just be that they like it's like at the Cuz usually it's a an appointment recommendation. Yeah. city votes on it. Is that right?

That's what I'm thinking. I think it's the mayor's recommendation and then council like Okay. supports it. It's some I don't know if it's like a formal vote. Yeah, Steve. You just had yours. Do you remember? I remember you being at that meeting. Yeah. Briefly. I wasn't even there. Yeah, you're correct. It is a mayor recommendation and then a council approval. Okay. Cool. We should Yes, we should uh outline that then. Um So, here's what I'm curious about with the trainings. So, like for me I have to do like a formal official like continuing legal education trainings, right? For my membership to the bar. Mhm. We're not that formalized. It's like like for example the like the talk that the Sun News is having next week. It seems like that would count as a training. But, it's not like something official by like the Planners Institute or something where you would get like continuing education credits. So, what is our like system for determining what counts and what doesn't? I can I've got a Uh I'm not prepared for that. Oh, sorry. I've got a I've got a spreadsheet for you guys to all fill out um how you're meeting your requirements and on that sheet is the vetted list of It's like the Yeah, the real estate board, the Land Use Institute, any of those videos count. Um so, I've got links to all of those and then the state doesn't have a

uh auditing process. So, I'm going to keep this spreadsheet, but I don't really have anybody to send it to. Yeah. Um so, we're going to do our best. This So, it's like an honor system basically. A little bit, but we're keeping track just

Yeah, just in case they say we're going to audit you, here you go. Exactly. But, it's like worst case scenario like it's something you think should and does count, you just sort of would need to explain why it counts if it's not something that's sort of on their pre-vetted list. Sounds like. Um and then just a couple things in 4.2, I think there's a space missing between the planning commission uh in that first red line. Threads. Yep. And then a space around

staring at that too. a space around uh letter m as well. Just like typo things. Get that little space. Um Cool. Looks good. Yeah. And then let me just make sure I didn't have anything else flagged. No, makes sense. Okay. A Did um Sorry for all the scrolling. Um Did she We want to talk about the I picked some kind of random numbers for attendance thinking that you guys were going to discuss what felt right. Let's chat. I know you and I had chatted about this Johanna when we met. Um so, yeah. Let's see what we've got here. Uh that's Jeez. All right. So, my computer's

[clears throat] freaking out. Wait, where is this? It's 3.4. Okay. Oh, would Do you didn't have them in there yet? Oh, on the packet version? Yeah. Oh. Um Am I just seeing things? It's not in there. Oh, the red line was accepted though. Oh. It's fine. It's just not red. Um but it's it's what you have in red on the screen, I think. Exactly. Yeah. At least the document I have it's not in red.

Yeah, I don't see it either. Yeah. Cool. Maximum of two absences in a calendar year may be unexcused meaning planning department was not notified at least two weeks prior to the scheduled meeting. Uh So, I have a different sort of definition in my head of what makes excused and unexcused. I feel like we used to struggle. We don't so much anymore with like no shows. Like like ghosting almost. Like you would think someone is coming to the meeting and they would not It was like a no call no show basically. I feel like a no call no show is very different than like a "Hey, I'm so sorry. I can't make the meeting and you guys know I can't make the meeting." Like lots of heads up.

With with like even a day's heads up, I think makes a difference if someone gets sick or something comes up or something like that. Um and then there's that like third bucket of like "I know I'm not going to be here and I'm telling you at least two weeks in advance." Mhm. And I feel like I don't want to penalize people for the the late cancellations, but I like want to frankly come down really hard on people that just don't show. Uh Just this

and don't let anybody know and then we don't have a quorum suddenly. Like that used to happen to us like fairly frequently and it was Mhm. furiating for staff. Um For everybody. Yeah. Um So, I feel like But, yeah. I think two Maybe we just with how we are right now, we're not really struggling with that problem so much anymore and we do have a provision in there where Yeah, I guess that would just count as your unexcused absence. Like we will still try to maintain a a culture of hey please be respectful Right. and let people know. Um Pay attention to the calendar. Meetings are predictable. You know, like you should know that there's an email from Johanna in your inbox on Monday of a the second and fourth week of every every month. Um So, I think maybe yeah. Maybe a maximum of two may be unexcused and that would count like "I just can't make it." or something came up in my family or I'm sick. Or something. Particularly I think because we do have a Zoom option. Um and as Jill has so bravely demonstrated several times

[laughter] attending the planning commission meeting while you have laryngitis is possible. So bad. But, I got it. I got it. [laughter] Um Sicker than a dog. Yeah, I think at least two weeks prior. Commissioners will attend 70% of the meeting. Um I think Yeah. traveled and you know, I've done it traveling where I've done not not good reception. I mean, I think we're proving that especially with Zoom options. Totally. Totally. of just not Yeah. attending is I think for the most part like we get the emails and we're I'll be there. I'll see you. I'll be there. So, I think I forgot to do that. I think so. My calendar. [laughter]

I think the only thing I would say just language in the very last sentence commissioners who failed to attend 75% of the meetings I would just say 75% of all annual like all meetings annually. Yeah. Annually. Um or have three or more unexcused absences or Eight. That's still missing eight. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is quite a few considering that if we know that there's likely to not be a quorum about half the time we end up canceling or rescheduling the meeting so people can make it. I think that this year it's five. Mhm. Um Yeah. I think I'd also be helpful to add language around um notifying planning staff via writing cuz I think we've had that problem in the past where people kind of like casually mention it yes at a meeting but then Johanna doesn't have a good way to keep track of that and then we get surprised with a lack of quorum because commissioners thought they notified but it wasn't wasn't really captured. Yeah.

on the Yeah. same uh spreadsheet as the trainings. I also have an attendance sheet. Mhm.

Um so, you can just put yes or no, yes or no for the whole year as you see right now and then you can always go back and update it and then um That's helpful. Oh, that's good. We don't have to email. Perfect. I was going to send that to you. That's super helpful. But yeah, I would say um that would count but I would say like uh was not notified in writing at least two weeks prior to the scheduled meeting. If we could just add in writing and that would count putting it in the spreadsheet or an email or carrier pigeon or whatever. [laughter]

All the things. Yeah. No, that's good. I'm glad we have this actually explicitly laid out now, too. I hope it's not a problem ever again but in the the case that it for some reason becomes one, it's good to have it written down. I like that. There's also a little typo below in the 3.5 the mayor of their designee just while we're looking at this section. Which maybe is also a typo that got copied from the state code. The mayor or their designee. Oh. Removal from service. So, you couldn't have this view on in this meeting. Okay.

[laughter]

Or maybe a little distracted but there you go. Cool. Makes sense to me. I think the biggest thing is the trainings just something for everyone to kind of keep in mind. You know, watch for opportunities. I will say like there I think we can be creative with things, too. I think like the Sun Civics program is a really good thing that the Moab Sun is starting. I think most of those probably would count towards something even the one that they're doing. Is it tonight? Yeah, they're doing one tonight that is like using public databases like research um like public meeting databases and stuff. I feel like that would count for that second part. Um like property rights, zoning code things like that. So, I don't think it necessarily needs to be like planning and zoning X, Y, and Z. Will there be some sort of process for like vetting opportunities that come up either with the chair or with staff? Let's say if you know, there's like a webinar or a lecture or something that seems relevant. Do you need to get prior confirmation that it would count? Or is we're just kind of self-logging in the spreadsheet that Johanna's developing? Yeah, I'd say if you are concerned, you can always send it to me and um I'll tell you what I think but um as a default you can probably trust your instincts. Thank you. Do we feel like we need something in the bylaws that says that? I'm okay without. Personally, I think it's important to note that it also doesn't say live

training. So, there are lots of really wonderful YouTube videos that could could fill in the need here. So, I do think it's like at your convenience cuz we I know we struggle with that down here in Moab. It's not like there's like state trainings we can go to all the time in person.

You travel for all of my CE. I'm sure you do. No, I don't. I do it all virtually now. Well, I do I do it I have one big conference I go to every year that knocks out like 10 credits which is great. But no, yeah. But a certain amount have to be live for the bar which is really obnoxious sometimes. So, yeah. I I think I'm fine kind of as it is. Like you said, it's functionally uh use your best judgment honor system and I think you know, no one's going to like kickboxing and saying that it's like your planning commission training. [laughter] I don't think so. We haven't tried it. It's time for kickboxing.

[laughter]

Yeah. I don't know. Carolyn, do you feel like we should have something like that in there? Needs approval. Um I don't think so if everybody feels okay about it. Mhm. Um it might be something that would be helpful to clarify for new planning commissioners who are coming on just what the expectations are around what counts and what doesn't count especially for somebody who's you know, very new to the field and might not know where to look for opportunities and stuff like that. Great. I'm going to add it to orientation. Yeah, I'm reading this and thinking that our annual Optimum training counts. Yeah. So, that's cool. There's one already. Yeah, and if you complete or if you come to all the meetings that counts as one hour. Oh. Yeah. If you come to 12 public meetings. Okay. Oh, yeah. Cool. All right. I think it it looks looks great. Thanks for putting this all in there, Johanna. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so a lot of work. amended changes, we'll just say next time likely vote on the bylaws. Mhm. Cool. Nice. All right. On to the big guy. Moving Moving along. Bailey's got to go get married. Uh all right. Our final discussion item 4.3 land use code update discussion. Take it away. Buckets.

Okie doke. So, we are going to be working off of Kaya's sheet because this one is very distracting with all of the definitions. Um so, we left off on um We just got to mobile food vendors. We dipped our toe into how complicated that is and uh we said that we're going to be coming back to that one. Uh right now I have the vendor code on its last step going to review from the treasurer's office. We're going to be discussing that on Monday so I'll be bringing it to you guys hopefully soon. But for now we're going to skip it in this context. Um so, we can start out with financial institutions and then keep going just as we were. Um if anybody has any comments on the B through H not matching up with the A column. So, financial institutions. That one's pretty easy. It's only got one. Yeah, the only thing I would even think about forward thinking is if we were to ever like get some type of cash service business in town which we technically City Market is pretty much the only one that does that but if we were to have like a cash cash checking place, I don't know that it would be meant as a financial institution. It's a cash service business. That would be very forward thinking but that would the only one I would think about there. Pawn shop cash cashes checks.

Okay, but are we or are we talking about places that are like FDIC insured as a financial institution or are we talking What's the What are we Yeah. Cuz in in my world, cash services is always kind of very separated. Like a money service business and and MSB is what they're called, but Yeah, that'd be my only thought. Now that I have the definitions, let me just You also have like financial institutions could be banks, investments, insurance. Like Yeah. How specific do we want to be very vague? Or sorry, this is like the one area I really know. Right. Right, like where Yeah. So, right now my definition of financial institution is an establishment that provides retail banking, mortgage lending, and financial services to individuals, businesses, including check-cashing facilities. So, if we'd like to break it up, we can. Well, and do we have I I trying to remember cuz I was looking for it earlier, do we have insurance services separated? And in theory, that's still pretty financial services, right? No, I don't think that we have the word insurance in any anywhere, but I would probably put that I think I think you can include it in financial institutions. Honestly, it's Not in offices. Okay. I think the um I feel like that fits in offices. There's certain regulations Mhm. that belong with financial institutions and and insurance tends to belong in the

regulation area. A little bit deeper than just office space. Would we ever want or need to have those things be separate like in the land use code though? It's like kind of how I'm thinking about it. They may need to be because of certain regulations federally. I was thinking like a place you would have a financial institution, but you wouldn't have an insurance service, vice versa. Um or like Like in this like in zoning, thinking about the zoning. businesses, a lot of times they can't be a certain distance from certain other types of financial institutions. That's why it's it's specifically divided. Woah. I didn't know that. And there's also certain like security requirements that I think as a city we would want to think about. But also that's probably all on the business owner as well, but I feel it would be something to think about. I think my only concern with that I think is overarching is like we're trying to smooth and streamline the code instead of like further complicated. And I don't know I don't know where to draw that line, frankly. I'd say if if we want it to be simplified, I would at least add insurance services to the definition. In the definition, that's it. That's the only thing I think that's really missing. Yeah. Yeah. I also think that and should be an or like banking, mortgage lending, or financial services, or including check-cashing. Yeah. Yeah, there's I agree with you. The only thing that I'll add is that if we leave it vague and don't specifically put insurance, then when somebody comes, they can be in a zone that's either for offices or they

could probably argue to me that they fit into financial institutions. If we put it in the definition of financial institutions and they'd like to be in a zone that only has offices, then they couldn't be in that zone. So, it could be more limiting. I get what you're saying. I'm just Then theoretically, all financial services could be considered in all offices. Perhaps. I have separated uh financial institutions thinking of your classic bank um because they are going to have different lighting Yeah. That's what I mean.

ordinance mean needs. But is like central insurance No, they're Is it more similar to a bank or more similar to an office? And I feel like it's more more similar to an office. I fall right in between. Yeah. But your current place of business is in a building that could just be any This is true. [laughter]

I mean, we have certain Yeah. federal requirements still, but the difference is they have an ATM. And that is honestly if the difference is they have an ATM. And so, I would be almost if we want to complicate it just slightly, it would be anything that involves an ATM. has those federal requirements because you can technically have bank offices that don't have an ATM that don't fall under fall under those federal Yeah. It's the ATM that's the issue. Should we just should we reference like federal requirements as the definition? That way it just is that with whatever that is. This complicates it all.

I know. I know. That's the thing. I'm trying not to complicate it. It's just more like I almost want to literally take it out and say have a spot for ATMs. Yeah, we could do an accessory use of ATMs that would allow the gas stations, everybody else to also automatically bypass the lighting hours requirement and would take administrative exceptions off of my plate. all ATMs or just external ATMs? External. Yeah, cuz like there's a locked door. The corner store doesn't have cuz they can lock their Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat]

That's the locked door difference. Woof, my dogs. They're all my un unmuted. Oh. My bad. [laughter] I'd be curious I was talking to my dog. Yeah, I'd be curious to see like how other smaller municipalities Yeah. I'm going to just flag that to kind of come back to it. But I think that's valuable insight, Shaylee. Yeah. It's interesting cuz I I I literally flagged all the office stuff cuz I was like that's could be Yeah.

for many businesses for office space. Now we're into my favorite, personal services. Wait, did we skip the overnight accommodations? Did we? This where is this like accountant Oh, yeah. Accommodation. Sorry. That's An accountant accountant See, that's the thing like accountant, I would have just in like offices. Right. Yeah. There's no regulations on lighting. Like Must have a giant sign, unfortunately. [laughter] Must have a giant sign. That's the requirement. You heard me, Dave. [laughter]

All right. Yes, correct. Existing overnight accommodations. What do we need to Well, so this is specifically under commercial and there's overnight accommodations elsewhere as well. Right. There are existing non-conforming uses in the residential zone for overnight accommodations, but the hope is that those are few and far between and dwindling. I I'm a little confused by your question. Sorry. This this one confused me. It's not overnight accommodation. It's existing overnight accommodation. Oh, yeah. I'm trying to understand the why of the word. Because that's why our code is written right now. Like the only accommodate the only overnight accommodations that are allowed were in existence as of the date in 2019, 2020, whatever. Yeah, I would say I'm getting rid of that word. overnight accommodations. I think we need to have existing in there still. Yeah, we'll have both existing mentioning the ordinance that we're trying on and then we'll have the definition because who knows when they're going to lift that. So, um Big red button. Uh yeah, but I to your point, we are in the giant bucket of commercial. Right. Um but a lot of these things, it's the use, not the zone. So we can have commercial use in a residential zone. We can have residential use in a commercial zone. Right? Am I explaining that right? Okay.

Which is why even though not every licensed existing overnight accommodation is in the commercial zone. It's in the commercial bucket. It would be counted as a commercial use. So do we feel like we need all these definitions, lodging, hostel, extended stay? Do we feel like we need all of that or just I think No. Overnight I am going to actually back it up. Yeah, what do you have now? So um only these two with the mauve on top are going to be what the public sees. What we've been going through is these columns. Which we've just been using to make sure that nothing slips through our fingers and like we miss thinking about accountant because it wasn't on the current on the list. Um so when we can we can go down to So they only see column A. Yes, they only see column A and column B. And so for example um personal services. There's a That's a bad one cuz there's quite a list. That's a lot of personal services. Funeral establishments. Yes. [laughter] Can we There's a There's a few that have like a a list of things, but I'm hopefully trying to get away from listing every possible thing and more of a like a broad

But That helps. definition of the character. Makes sense for a Okay. Existing overnight accommodation, if that makes sense. Okay. Move on. Do we want to move to personal services? Yes. Did you see what they said? [laughter] We get pulled up on that without you for a second. Wait, what? On personal services cuz she said they only see A and B. The only option for personal services is funeral establishment. Oh my god. [laughter]

Wait, sorry. Backing up. Did we talk about Did we I can't remember where we left it with offices last time. Did we get to artist studio? Cuz I had it at that flag just like something I didn't think fit in that bucket. Sorry, I'm trying to go back and forth between your spreadsheet and mine and can't see the one on the screen very well, so Um no, I don't think that we got to we discussed artist studio. Did that end up in offices? I like offices. I like the definition just office, business or professional.

Yeah. I think how you have it written in your example is fine. Um but it just I just it was one of those one of these things is not like the other. Mhm. Uh in the original exercise I had that flagged like months ago. But it looks like if clicking over to the example tab, it that's not in there. Cuz there's like the artist studios that I know are like in people's houses. Um in residential zones. Mhm. most part. Yeah, and we have a different uh use Yeah. just for that artisan artisan warehouse. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. Apologies. Moving on. Okay, where are we now? We are at personal services.

Okay. I think how you have it written again over in your example Sorry. Makes sense. Yeah, this is a great example. How would we feel about ending the sentence um somewhere around here after customizing and adding um of material goods. Um and then go getting away from listing all the possible things or does listing some kind of help you in your mind um I don't know. Think of things that are like that. Put up some guardrails. Like a such as or something? Yeah. Do we do that in other zones? I feel like that's something we should be doing or other uses. Do we have like a such as X, Y, and Z other places? Cuz I feel like we either should do that across the board or shouldn't do it across the board. I think it would be helpful, but I would have to make sure we're doing it consistently. Yeah. Cuz for me as a personal services I'm like, what are you talking about? Yes, I figured it

[laughter]

Sorry, Carolyn. Go ahead. I think the examples are helpful, especially if this one is seems quite big. Mhm. Um so I like the examples. I don't think that the definition currently does seem to encompass funeral establishments and there might also be [laughter] redundancy with um example this just massage. I feel like wasn't that covered in um one of the other ones where there was like chiropractics and body work and stuff like that referenced. Well, and I do think as far as like use and impact, the two that kind of do stick out and I don't know how this is now in our code or where they're encompassed, but like dry cleaners potentially have impacts some sort of like environmental things. Uh and then same with funeral establishments if there's a crematorium. Um you're going to have like the crematorium aspect of it. Like some sort of waste. So I don't know that those to me fit in with everything. Yeah, I don't know where to put them, but Yeah, I agree. Because of the environmental impact, I do think there's there's some chemical disposal. We could definitely do a a specialized personnel services and then have those uh have a buffer larger than personal services. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. That there's that's one of those things I don't know where they Well, and and on the other front like they do have pretty stringent requirements on how

Yes. dispose of said chemicals, so Yeah. in this role Uh-huh. of definition. Or is that more like we have to make sure that we're providing a At that point they're following their law. Well, it's hard because you could say like half of these things are things that somebody can do out of their house and half of them are things that like should be in like an office park. True. You know, or like a you know, shopping mall crematorium or out of their house. Yeah, like a dry cleaner. You're not dry cleaning out of your house. There's a dry cleaner in like the strip mall. You're you're doing you're you know, you're doing hair out of your house and maybe pet grooming, but you're not doing small appliance repair. Don't we in the like residential area talk about like work like it being able to have office certain certain services in your home? Yes. Mhm. That's another one.

Segregates it from that point. Okay. But commercial specifically we probably should include Yes, all home occupations have their own bucket. Uh code requirements. So we shouldn't be So I think the personal services we could include dry cleaners and

Yeah, it seems like and Sure. Personal services. Hey. But the before one was they only had funeral services under this. Permanent lodging. We're just getting froggy tonight. Sorry. Cemetery. Um That's up in the That's under civic. Yeah. Under civic duties. Yeah, I think I think yeah, that makes sense. In that case sure. Uh great. What's next? Next we have building and landscaping supply store.

I forget what I called that in the definitions.

Retail, right? Yeah, it's under retail. Makes sense to me. Yeah, that cuz the one thing I really didn't like on ours is why do they keep using square footage amounts? What does that have pertinence? And I like that you don't utilize it in your example. Yeah, it's like the same thing. I think it pigeonholes us. Um on the neighborhood retail, that'd be the one area I almost think we need to be more specific. Um I think this is an important part that we make sure that it's not it can't be abused. What would be something that you think would kind of go outside that scope? Um How you envision it? I don't have an example. I just think it could be easily beyond that. I just Like are you thinking like a like a home bakery in a place or Well, I mean that that goes back goes back to home businesses. So it's not even so much that. It's just if you're going to be a retail space in neighborhood, just I think that respect factor. Hard to put that into wording, right? Yes, I could see a McDonald's coming in and saying, I am serving the customers of this neighborhood. And maybe I don't know if this is reasonable, but to put like an a a business that operates in certain hours.

Makes sense to me in a neighborhood retail is that they like like they operate in daytime hours. Or I don't know if that's a reasonable thing in line code, but to me it would make sense if you're going to be in a in a neighborhood that that you would be So I'm just Googling neighborhood retail versus small scale convenience oriented commercial establishments located within or adjacent to residential areas designed to meet daily needs such as groceries, pharmacy items, and personal personal services. They're just [laughter]

So like teenage corner store, Dave's neighborhood retail. They they operate normal hours. I had like that's where you go get your coffee in the morning, but they're not somewhere people hang out at 10:30 at night. But it could be like a shopping center that has like a bookstore or something, you know. Is there anything to put in there that we can help maintain that decorum? Well, this is where we can use our use parameters. So in this column, we can write uh business hours. This is where we could put less than 3,000 square feet. Um that's where we can put um Yes, I live by Dave's Corner Market, but Maverick is also not so far. But then pardon me, but they're open I think 24 hours. To use as an example, there's Wabi Sabi's going in. That's going to be very much neighborhood retail. How big is that going to be? Large. Yeah. And so like that I'm just to use them as an example, but they're going to be operating in daytime hours. We could do a neighborhood retail slash nonprofit if we wanted. I think neighborhood retail could be a nonprofit or I think we don't specify that. I know. I wouldn't specify nonprofits. Half the community's going to lose their mind if we do that.

Can we like flag that as like a like how do we make sure that maintains the decorum of being in a neighborhood? I think the hours makes good sense to me. Just don't know how to word it. I I I do. I think I think it's it's business hours, you know. Nothing that's neighborhood retail stays open past as much as I wish Dave was open sometime. [laughter] As I'm going to an emergency room.

Really? Nice. Like Yeah. Yeah. Um I just think it keeps it quiet. Yeah. But I do think there are probably use parameters that are already being worked on or that are in the code. Now, do we have neighborhood retail now? No, we don't.

No, new creation. Okay. I love this actually. I love that it's getting included. Mhm. Well, it's those like community nodes we've been talking about for a long time, right? You got like the the Dave's area, the teenage snake oil area, the I guess sort of the old Wabi Sabi area now. Well, and then you have the bowling alley. But they're open late. That's the county. I'm just giving examples. Is it in the city?

Oh, never mind. But it that's not considered retail. That's Yeah. bar recreation things. Indoor recreation. Indoor recreation, yeah. And restaurant. Not a bar. Does have a bar. I don't know. Isn't it? I don't know if it's a bar. I think it's a restaurant, not a bar. Because kids can be in it. It is not a bar. It's all about that sign on the door. I mean I I don't know if we need to put the direction in it or not. I just I would say

Well, no, I do think I I see what you're saying, Shaylee, and I do agree that we should figure out some use parameters that like are common to all of those things that we think fit into that bucket. Um Well, also how do we define what becomes neighborhood or not in our cute little town? Yeah. Like at what point is that no longer considered neighborhood retail? Like when there's more than two buildings between them and a house or, you know, Yeah. define what counts as neighborhood retail. I think it's probably its own zone. It sounds like it's it's like C1 or That could be a whole probably. Okay. Oh, I Or within like if it's C, you know, it's C1, it can be neighborhood retail if it's in C1 and C1 has certain uses that are allowed or not allowed. But I I feel like my recommendation on that one would be yeah, and hours. Okay. I think business hours makes sense. Sounds good. Unless it's a restaurant though, that's the thing. I don't know. That's not considered retail though. Yeah. That's true. That's very true. But it would be No, you're right. But even burger place Yeah. is only open until Like even in the summer, they're open only till 9:00. I'm out late enough at 5:00, but sometimes not late enough. I wish they'd stay Sometimes I want a milkshake at 10:00 p.m. Uh okay. Heard. Heard. Okay, where are we now? Transportation. Okay. Transpo- I'm I'm kind of just going straight over to people cuz we're using it so much.

Um I think we're liking it. That's Yes. Wonderful. I do. Don't use my spreadsheet. Transportation. Um so I guess I didn't go over this too well. The column A is the biggest bucket. Right. And then B is the uses. That's what I thought you were talking about from the old spreadsheets. That's why I was laughing so hard. I really like this bucket. I think this bucket makes sense. I think everything that you currently have in the example under this feels right together. I feel like these uses being sort of put together will prevent any of these uses from being somewhere that they shouldn't. Um and so I think that feels right to me. That's my That's my feedback on it. Yeah, I love that bucket. I think you thought of everything. Mhm. Wonderful. So this Thank you. Something that you said it gave me a little bit of pause. So each each of these um so row 62 is going to have its permitted, not permitted, permitted, not permitted. I just wanted to make sure that we're not thinking that 60 row 61 is going to be permitted in this zone, and then you you can choose from all of the ones below that. Okay. But I think just as a larger category, calling Yeah, like I don't think like OHV rentals, for example, are the same as outfitters and guide services. And that's how they had been in the code for like a hot minute and we that hasn't been the case. OHV guides.

Yeah. Well, OHV rentals are very good. Yes, and it's always like what I like is like you take the highest use and that is the category that it falls in and if there are other incidental less impactful uses a part of it that can fall within it. It's like you could you could have a guide that is an OHV rental place, but you cannot have an OHV rental place that that like happens to have a Yeah. in certain zones. What if all they're doing is rentals? That that whole that's a whole different service. Yeah. And someone responsibly guiding you. Well, and then it's about the actual use. It's not about like what their business license says either, which I think is helpful probably. Like Not sure not sure how we can Yes. Yeah. Yes. Like sometimes you you might have guiding, but when you don't have guiding, do you have to change zones? Like that's that's makes sense.

Right. It's very complicated. What's your primary? I'm taking in there. But I really like it. Beautiful. I wonder if we should add a um use or sub definition that's around um transit center or bus stop. Not that we Ooh. or bus station. Good point.

thinking about future Moab and all of the amazing transit options that we're going to have someday. Cuz do we have public like free public parking? Cuz we have commercial parking on here. Mhm. But do we have like Like what would Lions Park parking not be? What would the city lot downtown be? What would the info center lot be? We normally don't have to have a use for something that's happening in the right of way. So it it bus stops and yes, city parking we You don't have to zone it. We don't have to zone it because we own it. Well, no, I'm not talking about in the right of way. I'm talking about like on a parcel. So like for the Oh, public parking. Yeah. Park a lot, not public parking on the street.

Gotcha. Okay. Like the parking lot behind Main Street. Yeah. And the MIC and again and like Lions Lions Park.

Should that go in civic? Probably. Um And I'm wondering Okay, I don't think it fits in any of these, but that's a great point. Like a new civic parking. And I was thinking of more like an actual bus station or um something more more transit oriented that Jeez. I think while providing a civic use, maybe fits better within the transportation section. that Carolyn, is it private or is it civic? Like are we talking like a a private bus company? Like like Greyhound? Are we talking about like a tran- a civic transit bus stop? Cuz she's saying

was kind of a a question that I left um under the civic tab, too, is I think that definition could use clarified a bit more because there are some you know, like private {slash} commercial types of operations that are listed there, but then the majority of it is is public. So, there's already kind of that mix there. When I think of bus station, whether it's you know, like if there's a future MAT actual bus station or it's a Greyhound or whatever that bus company is that goes to Salt Lake, I would probably put it under transportation and not civic. Yeah. That's a good good point. Cuz we do have like the Salt Lake Express and the St. George Express. Where does the Where do they park their vehicles? They have a It's right across the street from from city market. It's north. Okay. Okay. Okay. I was I was just curious. I've never seen them all parked. So, yeah, what if that expands and they need an actual location because it expands to, you know, 12 buses or something. What would that fall under? Civic? Is that a civic public duty? Or you know, like is it a Cuz it's providing a service to the public. Yeah, we would need a location for them. Would it be city-owned property? That I don't know. We should put a pin in that and ask questions. Yeah. I'll I'll say I was thinking about Carolyn and your bus stop. Mhm. Um and then I was thinking, oh, are we going to have to put a bus stop in civic and a bus stop in commercial and then I was thinking the big buckets the humongous buckets

are just for the public so that they can better navigate the title civic doesn't really hold too much weight. So, we can just have one bus stop and then in the definition not determine whether it's for monetary gain Right. And same with parking lot. I can probably do I think it fits in active open space almost, Carolyn, and I would call it maybe like a transportation hub. It kind of seems like what you're having mind. Like potentially it's like commuter, you know, parking or something where you would, you know, drop your car or bike to the the MAT or whatever transit or something. But some point people are renting parking for trailers. Yeah. And things like that. That's commercial commercial commercial to me. 100%. I think even the transit with like Moab Express Yeah. is still But like a transportation hub. Like there's a lot of cities that have like commuter lots, right? Where, you know, if you're commuting, obviously that's not Moab, but if you're coming in for the suburbs, they'll just be like a big lot next to like the light rail station or something.

We could have that right around San Juan Yeah. county line.

Yeah. commuter bus coming in to the city. Or where the train I mean, not that that's city, but you know, where the train is. Just while we're doing this. But no, I think Carolyn, I think that makes sense to have that be in somewhere. Right. Type of commuter hub. Yeah, I think transit transit hub is probably cuz that's different than a bus stop, which is just like roadside. I feel like you'd keep that civic or commercial. I think it's civic. Cuz I don't I don't see us having a commercial operation that needs a transit hub the same way public transportation would or some sort of public entity, whether it's like catch the bus to our world-renowned outdoor amphitheater we're going to have at the Amtrac site.

Oh, I saw Come on. Let's do it. Awesome idea. Let's do it. That turns into parking lot, I swear. Um I would But, you know, something like that. So. Okay. That helps give direction. I like it. Sweet. Oh god, where were we now? Back to transit or transportation services. Transportation. Oop. Okay. Uh Uh was there any more comments on transportation?

Whereas I think commercial parking actually covers if it's a commercial entity already. Like if it's a lot owned by the Salt Lake Express company where you park your car and you pay to participate in that. I feel like that's commercial. parking Even though it's like the Chevron now, I think is where they pick up. I feel like that encompasses it though. Yeah. What's next? Industrial manufacturing. We've got two levels right now. Artisan and industrial. What is Okay. I feel like my comment for this section is about um the potential spectrum of impact on neighboring areas that's currently encompassed by the manufacturing industrial bucket. Um which in our individual spreadsheets goes from like asphalts and concrete mixing to coal yards to um manufacturing compounding and processing, but also has mining in there. And yeah, it just seems like a pretty wide widespread span where you'd want to have a little bit more nuance in saying, okay, maybe we're okay having um appliances assembly in this zone, but we're not okay having mining or asphalt mixing in this zone or neighborhood. Well, if I would Yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't know that I would put like appliance assembly into the manufacturing bucket. general in my head, but Yeah, I don't know.

Or even, you know, I feel like some manufacturing processes that are pretty well contained indoors have less of an impact um on neighboring areas compared to mining asphalt mixing. That kind of stuff. I'm thinking about sort of like environmental byproducts, too, similar to our previous conversation about the funeral establishments and laundromats. Right. How do we Yeah. I have for like in my notes for like the welding shop, I feel like that's one where we note the size probably makes the difference if it's just like in someone's single garage that they've you know, shored up for like a small welding business versus like you know, I used to live over on the west side of town towards the wetlands and there's like that massive warehouse where there's a lot of like it's like a big metal yard and there's where and that's that's my husband's. Yeah, see exactly. It's very different. That's very different than like welding in your garage, you know, it's just a much larger operation. I mean, it's a much larger building, but there it's a much larger operation. Um Ooh, that's cool. I always wondered. You're welcome to come take a tour.

I would love to. I walked used to walk by it all the time with my dog. Um Sorry. [laughter]

Well, yeah, I mean, it's it's hard cuz a lot of the manufacturing was here before the houses. And then they had the bunker plunked around. For sure, for sure. And so what how do you zone something like that? That is the issue. But we also have to think what we have now and what we want in the future, I think, and realizing that none of this precludes whatever conforming use someone has right now. It just would preclude that use continuing under Well, and so being on the having been on the BOAB board for years and and the chair and president, one of the big things I would say in this area is this is such a big diversification point that I feel like if we if we tighten the the belts too hard in these areas we're limiting us as a community of bringing this into our community. And so I think it's a really hard area to like figure out. What I think is interesting now though is we actually if you look at our zoning map have like very there's like four parcels left in the city that are zoned I in some way. Very very limited. It's like a whole thing. So I feel like in in some way we're actually opening the door wider than it is right now probably with this or helpful code revision which I do think is like you said it's really helpful and I think separating out the intensity of the industrial use probably is hard. And I just keep everything I feel like everything comes back to home occupations because so many of these things are acceptable home occupations.

Well, and that that I mean, talk about that area specifically, there's so much like weird commercial like supposed to be building where the old hospital is and now it's employee housing, the water plant's down there. It's the the conservation is going to be down there. And so like how do you Yeah. Cuz that used to be the outskirts of town. Past the orchards and now it's not. And now we just we have the county I think is the thing. And also realizing that like I think you marketed them really well though. Yeah. I like that you have manufacturing artisan and then manufacturing. I think that that's a really good list other than I would agree with Carolyn that I think like some of these things should be split apart in that manufacturing. I think there is limited manufacturing that is all contained on an inside um you know, like assembly distribution

Yeah. um packaging And maybe it should be just as simple as Right. indoor out like interior manufacturing versus Unfortunately, every almost all of these things could be counted as indoor. Whether or not People are They don't know that it's like cold yard. Well, that's true. That's true. And asphalt yards outdoor Yeah, that's true.

You know, but like maybe that's how simple it could be. Like outdoor manufacturing versus indoor manufacturing. Actually, that's a really good door. You're hoping it's just contained to a building and there's no smoke They could close the door and contain it. Right. versus like asphalt manufacturing that's always going to be an outdoor thing. And like you said, there's so few places in our city that are doing it anymore. The likelihood of it happening is probably pretty minimal. However, you want to make sure that the doors you know, like you've got the right things in the right places. I don't I don't want it next to me. I I really do like the idea of outdoor indoor. Something that we could do is in the use parameters of manufacturing industrial, we say everything has to be inside. And then if they want outside storage, then they'll also have to find a place that does outdoor storage. So they can only be in zones that have the intersection of manufacturing and outdoor storage which would probably only be our industrial zone. And it would always have to be a mixed use cuz you're having two uses, manufacturing inside, storage outside. Would that be better than breaking industrial manufacturing into like light industrial versus heavy industrial? Yeah, cuz that's kind of where I'm at. I feel like artisan and and What is it? Just manufacturing.

Yeah. Manufacturing artisan and manufacturing just general. To me it makes sense how it is right now cuz you were you really are talking like some of the the larger more impactful possible uses in our entire code. And I do think having it cuz like you could technically have a lot of these things be inside with giant bay doors that are open all the time and it's technically inside. Because they get closed at night. Yeah. The indoor outdoor is really difficult. Yeah, I'll definitely separate um mining and uh asphalt mixing. I will say that there's a They make big. There's a lot of demand lately um to do those things for people to be mining in zones [clears throat] that are not industrial because we want to perhaps uh clear away area for development. And there's areas that don't Could that be exception based of saying we're going to clear this area using mining? Yeah, right now we can't. So we got to find a way. Wait, what? So she's saying people are asking to be able to mine certain spaces to literally clear way for clean development. Remove what is there that are that are profitable elements. Then they can put development on top of it.

But it's in a residential zone. So it's we're never going to Okay. You're not going to put a mine but we need to put a use in Got it. I was so confused. I'm like people are trying to I'm sorry. [laughter] It's late. That's considered a mining use, not a like a leveling. But on a even smaller basis in the middle of a residential. Yeah, sorry. That one's a a little too complicated to get into right now. Carolyn brings up a great point. Um some people would like to just mine and don't have plans to develop.

Yeah. Um for the sake of now I have a great lot to sell. Yeah. Um So you their use would be mining because they're not proposing any development. They're just trying to prepare a good lot. Yeah. Anyways. That's a different All right. Cool. Wow. But still feels like if they're trying to prepare prepare a good lot, wouldn't that still be development? Yeah. She's like earthwork. Yeah. I mean, like applying having a lot of background in mining uh like to actually apply to do a physical mine is like a whole 'nother ball game. Yes. I guess saying I want to mine this land to then clear it for to create Anything that we're calling mining is small potatoes and not going to be registered. Not going to be happening in the city. It's not like locatable material. Okay. Be minor. All right. I don't know that

Yeah, that's why you lost me. I was like the word mining probably can't really be well used in the city limits. I was like does me going and getting river rock from the bowling alley count? Yep, that's your mining. Here if you are mining. [laughter] Okay.

We'll work on manufacturing. Yeah, that's next. Warehouse. Outdoor storage, self storage, and then I did not know where to put laboratory. So it's there. Like yeah. Like health laboratories? Like yeah, kind of laboratories. I'm not sure. It's it's a use right now in our code. office space and I would not know. I would think maybe a hospital would be a similar thing or maybe even funeral home. With fuels.

this once at like a live by laboratory and it was all health stuff but they did things like like their microscopes but it was big and all big health laboratory. Mhm separate from a hospital. Like like the chemistry people. Like thinking about someone doing like like laboratory that does like blood drives. Still hospital but Yeah. We've got like our federal aid management agencies who that have a lab component. They sure do. This would be like a private lab that's doing private Yeah lab things. Yeah it would just be like like Still feels like office

There's also like a research and development laboratories you know like um gear testing or I can't remember what they were proposing to put on the Cane Creek site at one point but I'm thinking about like Yeah like gear testing or equipment testing does that fall under laboratory or Would that fall under It's not really the same as um how manufacturing is described currently but We have to have people talking. Like I feel like I'm thinking office space in my head like someone in a lab doing some research.

But yes to answer your question to me I think laboratories fits in warehouse. Because if it's like a medical like a lab incidental to medical office where they're just like you know there's like a room where they take blood samples and like run it through something in a minor way I think that again that's like the that's like a medical office that's not that would not be like just the lab. Yeah cuz lab I looked at was a research lab.

Yeah. And like I'm thinking warehouses like basically metal buildings. Labs are not going to be Yeah. Just a metal building. I think I guess I was thinking about like a synergy. Mhm. Yeah this is not a warehouse. Oh it's like parts totally a warehouse. It looks totally like a warehouse. Wouldn't it be both? They mix. Perhaps yeah it's manufacturing and office space. Yeah. I think it's in a great place. It's in a great place. Okay.

Okay we'll workshop the definition. That's a really hard one. We'll see where that goes. Um but yeah. And then helipad. Helipad ooh.

I think you put it in a great place. I I know I have that flag of like where do you put that maybe a helipad? Yeah right because people people might have a helicopter or a heli pad to park at their house. And so anyway now Yeah. So we've reached the end of where I've done definitions we can go back up to the top and start um from them discussing the definitions or we can continue chatting about uh utilities and accessory uses without the definitions which one would you guys like?

I like the definitions. I thought that was actually a more tailored production because we sort of had something to work with that Thank you for your hard work. Absolutely. Yeah these are combinations of uh other people's codes and um common definitions to just some Google searches um because this Yeah I really took your uh most simple language to heart. So tried to implement that.

Yeah I really like the dwelling definitions I think so far but these make sense. Mhm. Oh is there a new comment? Ooh. Okay. Wait are you seeing comments? Exciting. Um What oh. Oh. [laughter]

The work dwelling. Thanks guys. I didn't know you could add comments. I am dumb. No you are not. by your comment. A dwelling unit containing an integrated intricated living unit uh and working space in different areas in the unit. Um intricated living unit um integrated Okay. different spaces and Yeah so within the same rewording of anonymous elephant the Who's the anonymous living and working is going on within the same building but in separate areas. Or just right now is that what you're Not an ADU. Or a what was it artist? Yeah. Whatever. Well um studio something. Yeah. Yeah this is some So be like PR's bunkhouse. They've got like some office space and some work space and then also the bunkhouse maybe I don't know that's how I think of it. Perhaps I was thinking um or like the how the apartments above like the spoke on Main Street. Perhaps.

Yeah. Mhm. Yeah they're all in the same building that happen to be in the or I forgot the name of the building. Mhm. Yes yeah um dwellings above the ground floor. Mhm. Um on-site employee if they're the same building or I could write it as they're just on the same lot. Uh open to thoughts. I feel like even just getting rid of the word integrated would make it less confusing to me. Cuz integrated is like bringing them together but then you specify different parts of the unit. A dwelling unit containing living and working spaces in different areas of the unit. Mhm I think getting rid of integrated makes sense. Okay. In in my reading of this sentence right now I don't think it would encapsulate dwellings above ground floor. Residential structure. Um Sorry non-residential structure. Um so is that what we're going for or is that not what we're going for do you think? Um cuz this makes it sound like I got the front half of my home all switched over to commercial building code and that's where I run my business so I'm not running a home occupation because the front half is actually a commercial building I live in the back half um with nine of my friends. Uh so that's what I think the sentence is

saying but if we would like to for some reason Is is that how this is defined is that the front part or the separate part would be up to commercial code? Yes otherwise this would just be a home occupation.

Yeah. Right. Yeah right. So this is commercial with housing not housing with commercial. Yeah makes sense then. Okay and then for dwellings above commercial buildings um that can still happen. It it just wouldn't be a live work unit it would just have to be in a zone that allows commercial and allows residential. That is. Yeah. Okay. Who is anonymous elephant? I don't know. Oh it might be me on a different computer.

Oh you're on two computers. Yeah. That would probably be why you're working on this elephant. No it's in the room. [laughter]

Cool. Okie dokie then we have multi-household uh which is pretty exactly our definition currently. We've got single household attached. So row houses type stuff. Then we've got our classic single house household detached. And then we've got mobile homes recreational vehicle parks um which we may want to separate because one I would think is commercial. I agree.

I'll note to myself and then large development which is our PUD and PAD. Mhm. Um which I noticed now I have mobile home park twice in there. Um, I think it should be. Yeah, so maybe we could just

is currently in our zone. Like now. There's like R4. It's R4. Those are all together. PUDs are R4. Mobile home parks are R4. Are you comfortable with that? Or do you feel like you need to separate it? I don't know. It's hard because there's some PUDs that are actually small little neighborhoods. There's again not many, but and then there's some that are could be like massive block blocks worth of like manufactured houses or So, as long as it's zoned for it. Or if it's smaller than that. Yeah. So, I'd almost say get rid of mobile home as a separate. Put it all under I mean, large development is basically doesn't fit in any of those other things.

I would The problem is I would love a place in our code for like a lot that has like four mobile homes on it. And I don't know that I think that's super appropriate to be just in with single family detached or multi-household like dwellings to not have it be its very own thing that necessarily counts as large development. So, it couldn't fall under multi-household dwelling? Uh Um, again? So

I don't know. A little background. So, mobile homes are generally not allowed at all and I don't think that there is the will to let them in. A mobile home, different than manufactured home, which is what we may be talking about. Manufactured homes are are treated exactly like any other house. So, we don't need to put a label on them saying that manufactured homes are allowed in this zone because in any zone that allows a home they're also allowed.

Yeah. One word definition of a mobile home. I'm thinking of like what's at at Grand Oasis. Yes, some of what's at Grand Oasis Oasis is legal non-conforming because they are not up to building code and they're not up to HUD code. Yeah. And they're not allowed to move out. Correct. um, no more are allowed to come in. So, and that was a mistake. Putting putting mobile home park in there. We need to keep it as a use because we have a lot of people that are legal non-conforming. Um, but we're There was

shouldn't be expanding it or keeping it with large development and giving somebody a false hope that there could be a new mobile home park. We got the one. [laughter] We have There are several. Yeah, there are more than one. Yeah. That are in the city still? Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, there's a few around. Indeed, like all over. Pretty tucked in in existing neighborhoods.

of just But it's not defined as a mobile home because it's on a permit. No, they're defined as mobile homes. The trailers, it's definitely like old trailers. Oh, yeah. We have one mobile home park. Yeah. We've got other lots that have mobile homes on them. Yes. [laughter] There's a whole chapter of code that's just on the mobile home park. them anymore. A mobile home park. Or mobile homes in general, are we allowing them? No. Yeah, I am curious about your comment, Johanna, about like the lack of appetite for the kind of thing that Kyle was describing of like

Yeah. two mobile homes on a R2 property or something like that. Cuz I mean, talk about a way to increase opportunity for affordable housing. Yeah, I'm very pro mobile homes. I'll go on the record saying that actually. I think there's like I'm trying to understand. There's a huge I think there's a huge place for that, frankly. I think trying to move away from that so much has been a actually a problem in Moab. Um definition of a It's pretty prohibitive. Yeah. I've in my fixed mindset. Um If we'd like to go in that direction I'm fixed your mindset.

create a definition our um Cuz mobile homes don't have to be Yeah, flashy. Yeah, they don't. I've seen some really incredibly nice mobile home parks. Well, and that would also importantly encompass like a tiny home park, too. Um and that is all the rage. And I do think there's also a place for that potentially. Um, I am Those exist for overnight accommodations ironically, but like if we're not allowing it for real residents, that's And are we really not allowing it and why? When did that I think that was sort of policy direction a long time ago when it really was like derelict places that

board. I don't think we should be saying no to this. I think we just need a clear definition like that doesn't necessarily mean a home on wheels. Well, and I think um, maybe there's like a twofold need to have mobile home park that would also encompass uh tiny home village, but then maybe also just making it permissible in like the multi-household uh dwelling use or something like that so that in a multi-household neighborhood you could have like a single family home and then an RV or two that are all you know, allowed to be occupied by people as a primary residence.

I would add that to our I agree. I mean, I think I think that it's the same type of high-density overlay, right? We don't want to make it too aggressive. But to like not allow it at all Mhm. does restrict us when we're literally like focusing on we have a housing problem. I think it's one of the things the cities have been saying that they're restricted on. Mhm. Exciting. [laughter]

I'm I'm excited to see if we put something forward to city council and you guys are behind it to see what they're going to say. Love a proposal for from planning commission. Yes. Okay. Um I think we should try to wrap up soon. Yeah. Getting Shirley her wedding on. Get her out of the work. Yeah. This seems like a good place. I think And I will continue to work on the rest of the definitions and then everything that we talked about. Um Yeah, thank you guys so much.

Thank you. You did such a great job. These definitions were extremely helpful.

It all makes good sense. Mhm. And we finally got to give you the time you deserved, Johanna, after weeks and weeks of patience. All right. I will find my place in the agenda. Uh Okay. Uh item five, future agenda items. We only have um, voting on the bylaws for next meeting. And then of course our new code. Um, I don't have anything applicant wise yet. Cool. Yeah. All right. It's like it's not the seventh, right? Yeah. Oh, it is the seventh? Wait. Wait, what is the seventh? Next meeting. Our next meeting. It's the seventh, not the 14th. Yeah, it's not the seventh. It's on the 14th.

Yeah, it's the Okay, I have the 14th. Okay. Yeah. The Sun Civics Planning and Zoning 101 is at 5:30 p.m. on the seventh. And I strongly encourage everyone to go. The Sun is also going to be flagging that there are planning commissioners in attendance and that there will be a vacancy soon on the planning commission. And if people want to learn more to come talk to us for those of us that are there. So, if you're planning on attending I have a wedding. Oh. Out at the Red Cliffs place. Oh, well, that's okay. You're excused.

We'll be there. Yeah, we'll be there. I know what That's at the library at 5:30 and that would count as your training. I would count as a training. How long is it? Uh it goes till till 8:00 I have it. From till 8:00. So, I mean, maybe I could come Oh, don't. Chill. Go to your wedding. [laughter] I know it's it was a student

Go to the wedding. Okay. I will adjourn this meeting at 7:51 p.m. Thanks, everyone. Out before 8:00. Thank you, guys. Bye, Shirley. Yay. Congratulations. And we'll be changed next week. Fixed.