Business Improvement District Board #2 (historic Third Ward) - Regular Meeting

Order the regularly scheduled meeting of the historic preservation commission. I'm Jordan Morels, the chairman. Can we please take the role?

Anne Peeper? Here. Sally Peltz? Excused. Nicholas Robinson? Excuse. Patricia Keaton? Here. Matt Geraudz?

Here.

Robert

All right. Excellent. Well, item one, creation of a committee to establish oh, am I reading that correctly? Creation of a committee to establish procedures and guidelines for three-dimensional imaging.

Yes. Part of the recent change to the ordinance done by Alderman Baumann and Mr. Jarrus

made

progress

in we very the

is this requiring essentially BIM in modeling for demolition projects? Is that what it is?

Yeah. It's basically, you know, who stores the information and how specific is it and so forth. Fairly standard, but I think it would be important to have a committee think about that and think about what projects and I guess I hope I don't want to speak out of turn here but I guess I've talked to a couple of people and there's about approximately two fifty demolition permits a year, a couple of different people have told me that. And I would say, of those, there might be five, six, eight, ten worthy of or needing laser scanning. And I think that that's the point of the subcommittee is to make the determination.

Certainly, it's on a local register or the national register, certainly, we qualify. But that does not mean then that if it is that it needs to be scanned. Right. I think it's just a subcommittee evaluate what really is worthy

of that. Sure. Sure. Actually, I think the ordinance defines that if the subcommittee would prepare technical specifications as to what the scan should be, the dots, whatever the parameters are and technical parameters because the ordinance is very clear. Only properties that are locally designated and in historic districts are covered. Not registry. Not national registry.

Right. Which is really the only and according to that anyways is local. We don't have it on national.

And I don't think we've had demolitions of structures in a long, long time that are designated. We've had garages and shacks and sheds and things of that sort like today. So it does not apply to garages.

I see.

Well, it's phrased that it could be it will be up to this committee to decide whether all garages get exempted or up is there a certain size or quality standard?

Is there a description of what the possibilities are? Like do you like, you're asking does it need to completely be scanned or just partially scanned or what is your question?

The first and most basic part of it is that the exterior is only the exterior scanned. Okay. No interiors of these buildings are required and that's a much longer process. Okay. The exterior scans, we did that. You saw that in the article in the newspaper two months ago that E Line building on historic 3rd Street. Well, reputed, you know, years ago. And that it seems like we have, you know, lost that battle of saving that. So, we did go as a test case, pilot case out to scan the exterior of that and that was twenty five to thirty minutes to do that scan. And it was Jeremy, Janine, he had that image in the paper.

You guys saw that image. So that's basically, I think, what we can do is formalize specifically what I said. Right now, it's just been kind of loose discussion. So we can work with Tim to say precisely. And also on something like that, if you remember, that's a corner building. Okay. So it had the east facade and the north. The other two facades are inconsequential. They don't have any sort of historic features or stone or anything like that. So, it's meant to be, you know, a very kind of user friendly thing done quickly, inexpensively, but it helps us retain our heritage here before those things disappear.

Okay. And does the ordinance say that the person who owns the building who wants to tear it down is responsible to pay for that?

Is responsible for that, Tim. Is that does the ordinance?

Begin? They can tear it down?

Yep. Right.

Okay. And who approves it then? Who approves what they did and

That's what this committee committee will set up the rules and describe what's required. Got it.

Okay. So we are going to create the committee. Are any members of this commission besides Matt interested in joining this three-dimensional imaging subcommittee?

We have Anne. She got a lot

of her Ann, all right.

I'd also be opening joining that subcommittee. Good.

Good. Great. Awesome. Good.

I was hoping you would sign on next.

Yeah, of course.

Sorry, it took me a

while to get in. I think the meeting information that was

sent in the last email, I don't think that's the valid one. I've used the link for our January meeting.

Oh, okay. Alright, we've got three.

And how much did that cost? Like, you know, what would be the value of that kind of imaging?

We've talked about it a little bit before, but as I said, it can be maybe as low as $750 That was a simple building. I mean, you got a pretty large wonderful hard deco building that's going to take several scanning that might cost a couple of thousand, but most of it stays really within that lower amount.

Okay. It's probably best to stick with 3,000 so we don't have

a quorum. I agree. Okay. True. True. You guys try and do something silly in your subcommittee meeting. All right. Matt, do you want to be the chairman then of this subcommittee? We'll do that. Yeah. Okay. All right. Motion to establish the three d imaging subcommittee with Matt as chairman, Anne and Nicholas as members. That should good enough, right?

That's fine.

Do I have a second?

Second. Second.

All All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? No? Okay. Carries. All Alright. Item two five one nine two one, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for demolition of a garage at 2465 West Congress Street in the Garden Homes Historic District for Ashley Montgomery. All right. I

thought we'd start today with two really easy ones. None of the garages and garden homes are original. This one is unlikely to be salvageable. The owner requests permission demolish. It seems reasonable to do so.

Great. Anybody have any questions on this one?

I'm going to move to accept this but that raises a question that I have. How often do you get these and when you do get them, something like this for a demo like this, do you always bring it to the commission or are you able to make staff decisions?

Nope. Demos always come to you.

Demos always come here. Okay. I'll make a motion to Do approve the

I have a second? Okay. Awesome. All in favor? Aye. Motion carries. Let's see here.

Are you there too?

Oh, we have Sally here now. Excellent. All right. Item Resolution Relating to a Certificate of Appropriateness for Demolition of an Attached Garage and to Conduct Related Repairs at 1060 East Juneau Avenue in the 1st Ward Triangle Historic District for GMC MCR Miller House LLC.

Okay. So let me get my dates right on this building. But let's see. 1887 House on East Juneau. 1960s garage slapped on the West Side. It is not really doing anything for the building's character and is causing some damage and the way the gutters are routed, it's causing some masonry damage to the main building. The owners would like to remove it. Staff recommends approval.

Question on these. Is there intention to build a new one down the road? They may. And what about the other one that we just approved?

Didn't inquire on the garden homes one. I have spoken to the owners of this property and they're certainly thinking about it but there's nothing imminent.

Okay. So when they do, it'll come here Yes. I agree.

Oh, and this also has since there is a door from the garage into the house, they would like to replace it with this new wood door just so that they rather than brick up the opening.

And you approve that door too? Yeah.

Mr. Chair, the owner is here as a trust, correct?

I believe so. I I don't know if the owner is here but the contractor was said he was planning.

Is actually the trustee possibly. This

is quite the house. Yes.

Hasn't been occupied in many, many, many years although there's a caretaker that allegedly lives on the Top Floor. Uh-huh. But it's all furnished from the day. Oh, really? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes. It's quite the The cash could set that up if if he's healthy enough to do it but yes.

Do you want to speak? Nobody here on this? Yeah.

Is this yours?

Yeah. Well, it's not mine.

No. My rep is at the owner.

Oh, the owner is a trust. Correct? Still?

The owner is a trust.

Yes. Alright. Thank you.

And it's very nice inside. Except for this garage.

Right. Right.

Yeah. The garage encroaches the lot.

Okay.

Oh, it does. Really? That that crosses a lot? Yeah.

I forgot about that. Yeah. That's another reason

for a

country coming down because But you own that lot.

I'm not sure the the entity owns that

lot. Okay.

Any other questions regarding this item here? Move approval. Move approval. Do I have a second?

Second.

All in favor?

Aye. All

right. Moving on. Item 251818, resolution relating to Certificate of Appropriations for Rehabilitation of the Goiter. Goiter Peschke Frey Building at 324 North 15th Street, an individually designated historic property for Sunset Investors.

For building, which mostly involves repairing windows, installing missing windows, reopening bricked in windows and removing a lot of concrete block that has bricked in various openings. So this, as you see, is the new site plan. We only have authority over the building on the left with a slight probably up to about driveway. But the whole site plan is being shown as a courtesy. Current condition of the property, you can see what's been bricked in, filled in, graffiti, existing south and east, reopen some windows, punching a door in the block, reopen some doors and entries, remove some non historic fencing, more condition photos, general restoration with window products we have seen used before or repairs or matching to existing windows in the building.

And with one relatively inconsequential change, the Feds ordered that the new fencing not have masonry peers. So it will be different from the drawing and there will be no peers. It will be a decorative metal fence. Proposed parking structure that is not under our review, but to show you as a courtesy. And yes, staff is recommending approval for standard conditions on wood quality masonry work and that no vents be installed on the St.

Paul facade.

And this has already been approved by the Feds?

At least partially, you'll have to ask Ken that.

Okay. Kendall Brunig. I'm the owner. I have Part two approval from the National Park Service on everything. On the last review, they came back with conditional approval that I not add the brick piers at the corner. And they did at least give me guidance because there's currently chain link fence at the corner. And if they gave me no guidance, I would have had to just leave chain link fence. So luckily, they did come back and they said that the decorative aluminum fence was okay, Just get rid of the pulp, the brick piers. The only other thing I have as far as open unresolved items with the National Park Service right now is the final selection of the wood flooring. Otherwise, everything has been approved.

The site lighting has been approved. There and the new building has been approved and there are two signs that are being added with a little flower planter box in front of them. Normally, the National Park Service doesn't like landscaping in the front of the historic buildings, but I snuck those two landscape boxes in there for flowers, but they approved it. None of the openings that were busting out brick, those are all windows that were bricked up in the past. So basically, we're coming back to the period of significance of 1890 with one exception and that is the large window on the west wall.

If you go back one slide, it's not a rectangle. There's a door overhead door and a man door in there and they did allow me to square that opening back up. That opening was created in the 1950s and there used to actually be a skywalk across 15th Street to another building. But that window, it's all boarded up right now. It's all the frames are all rotted.

So that whole thing is coming out and they've allowed me to put in all new Quaker windows in there. They've approved the details of that. It's designed to match up with all the venting of the original window arrangement. The windows that are going in are the low E that the National Park Service approves. Although on the North side, I did put in clear because you don't need the low E on that side.

Also because I'm doing repairs, they were windows that were new in 2003 after the big fire. Between and so there are traco windows. I'm repairing them all. There were a little over 300 pieces of glass in the building and there were about 30 still remaining that were good. But because I was concerned about checker boarding, I replaced even the ones that were not broken. Otherwise, I could have had a checkerboard look to it. So all the glass is new, but the frames are original from after the last fire.

Okay. Any commissioners have questions?

I have a question. What are

you repurposing this building for?

It will be 47 residential apartments.

47 residential apartments. And this is LITEK or this is market driven?

Market driven. They would fit within the definition of workforce housing but I'm not using any type of programs other than historic tax credits. That's the only thing that I'm using. And we do have wood floors through pretty everything in the building except the bedrooms, which are carpet and the bathrooms get LVP. Otherwise, we have wood floorings in all the hallways, threefour inches wood flooring in all the apartments.

There's a little bit that we've preserved. The floors are in really rough condition because the building has been vacant for forty years. So there we managed to save about 1,000 square feet of flooring that we're going to repurpose for the lobbies. But other than that, it's all new, but it's all wood.

Okay. Any other questions?

Move approval.

With the conditions in Yes. The staff Okay. Do I have a second for that?

Second.

Second. All in favor?

Aye. All

right.

Thank you for your work, Kendall, and for your attention to detail.

Thank you. Beautiful.

Thank you. All right. Item number 25100847. Resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for a rear addition at 2315 East Ivanhoe Place in the North Point South Historic District for Kate Crowley.

Okay. So up on the screen we have an existing wood deck that is ready for demolition and a proposed new sunroom to replace it. Siding as shown. Measured drawing showing the exact location and context. So painted wood, brick foundation, concrete steps, decorative wooden corners and built in gutter, wood trim and paneling, various light fixtures that have not yet been selected, size of 14 by 16 to settle it just under the belt course of the between the 2nd And 3rd Floor.

The sunroom is complementary to the existing architecture and historic character of the surrounding district. The flat roof is necessary to avoid obstructing existing windows on the structure. And the classical design is well differentiated from the eclectic Prairie Tudor combination style of the home. It is designed not to be seen from the street, although there is a slight little overhang of the cornice, but that will mostly be hidden by the chimney unless you're looking at a very specific angle. So staff recommends approval, again, with our standard conditions on wood quality.

Okay. Anybody have any questions, sir? I assume you are here to represent the owner.

Yes. Keith Barnes, the architect.

Okay. Anybody have any questions for Mr. Barnes?

Looks pretty good. The material though is wood?

It's all painted wood. Yes.

Wood. Okay.

We did try for composite or LP, but Tim and Andrew corrected us before we submitted the deal.

It's rare that they say approval with our standard conditions. Must be good.

Yeah. All right. Any other questions? Okay. Do I have a motion on this item?

Move to approve.

Second. With the

conditions stated All by

Seconds. Any or sorry, all in favor?

Aye. All

right. Motion carries. Thank you, sir. All right. Moving on to item 251,727, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for adding a 3rd Floor balcony at 2015 North Lake Drive in the North Point South Historic District for John and Sarah Hambrooke.

We saw this a few months ago. This is coming back as a much more subtle and revised design. So bottom center photo, you can see a bay window right there, balcony that we put on top. The hood molding will remain the side moldings will remain a little bit of stucco will come out to put in two French doors. They will be the exact width of the total of the two existing windows plus their mullion.

Railing has been brought in a little, so it does not obstruct the barge board for some character and they will be copying a historic fence on the property as the railing. It will need some slight modifications to make it legal for railing at that height, but that just means tightening up spacing a little of vertical elements. So while this is a little unusual, it's not really staff feels it's not that much of a change to the building, especially since they are going to the effort of using the exact same opening just making it taller and going down rather than up retaining all the existing detail. Obviously, the windowsills have to go, but the side moldings, the hood over them will remain and it's going to be I believe it's a very short window. I think it's just over five feet tall.

And you're drawing, I can't quite remember.

Yes, whatever I sent you, I'm not sure honestly.

But yes, it's not a full height chart. Yes, it's short.

Right. Okay. Tim, I remember we had extensive discussion on this item in the past as these changes, I don't really recall everything but they reflect basically we had sent back to the applicant.

Yes. I worked with them extensively to get. These aren't necessarily the final doors. I told them something with more of a panel at the bottom. So it has roughly the same proportions of what's glass now and glass now will remain roughly what the glass will be on the doors.

Sure. Okay. So the owners basically done what we asked them to do and you are recommending approval with the condition on the final wood door selection.

Yes. I put it in here.

Yes. I told Tim I am going

have to use whatever door he

has I should use.

More or

less the one on the right there. It's probably going to be a Simpson door. We're going to figure it out. Right. Pulled this out of one of

my reference books. Nice. With whatever door Tim, what you ask for there. Alderman Baumann has a story about a $40,000 door. So that might blow up your project. Well, okay. Do any commissioners have any questions for this applicant? No. Okay. Do we have a motion to approve with the staff conditions?

So moved.

All right.

Do we

have a second? Second. In favor?

Aye.

Motion carries. Thank you sir.

Thank you.

Next item 251,995 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness to amend a previous approval of a comprehensive rehabilitation of the building at 1220 West Vleet Street, Shuster's Department Store, an individually designated historic property for Ted Matkim, Gorman and Company.

All right. This is another relatively easy one. There is basically no changes on the primary facades. They have had a change of proposed tenancy, which means they're all it's going to be all residential, which means they need more windows, which they are going to be adding to the rear. And there's also going to be a significant redesign of the parking lot.

I fully intend that to leave that up to the discretion of DNS and DCD. They're very extensive parking lot guidelines. Do you seem to apply to this change of use? And we've never had an issue with what they've required before. It's they're generally well thought out.

Basically, my only note is primarily for the applicants that they reconfirm that their parking lot design meets the required landscaping standards. As it's everything we approved plus 11 windows and a slight and a change to the parking lot and elimination of basement parking, sorry.

Yeah. Should we go ahead? Go ahead. My name is Ted Matcom. I'm the Wisconsin Market President for Gorman and Company. Thanks for having us here today. So long story short, as Tim kind of indicated, we did not have any success putting the Milwaukee County Behavior Health and Human Services Department in the space. What happened was we had a specific space form that was designed. They designed it through Allison. Unfortunately, it came in about $3,000,000 over budget.

And they didn't have the money for the overage. They're in a very nice place in West Allis that they're very comfortable with. And the decision was it's just too much money to move. And so I think a good thing for our project in the long run-in terms of we were creating some units in the building that were a little bit forced in, and this new space allows us to kind of spread the units out so it's more comfortable. We have historically designated characteristic defining spaces in the middle of the floor plate, which are a little inefficient, I guess, but supposedly consistent with our historic historic designation, and I think today we just received our part two, didn't we?

Our revised

Oh, that's part right.

Yes. Yeah. So the revisions that we're proposing today have been approved by NPS recently. Just to give you a little sense of what we're doing, I don't know if you guys are all familiar with this area. It is an area which I think is ripe for redevelopment.

It's right across a stone's throw away from maybe one of the highest rent districts that Alderman Baumann created in the Brewery District. This is not one of the high end rent districts. But there's a lot of opportunity there. The fact that the county has put a $68,000,000 headquarters for Department of Health and Human Services just north. We will be taking their vacant building to residential.

And then there are some blighted old buildings, potentially historic, but blighted buildings that are kind of kiddie corner on 13th And Vallit that actually the entire neighborhood is very interested in repurposing or redoing something with. And so this is one piece of the puzzle there that we're hopefully going to turn this neighborhood around. It's very close because right Vleet Street is a good street. And as it goes to Winnebago, it becomes better. And I think we can really make this a good segue into downtown.

Sure. Are you still planning on using the city parking

Yes, we are. Yes. And you know why? Because we had to not do the underground parking because the county was paying half of it and they left and we couldn't afford the other half. So now we have to use that lot. So we'll probably be coming to you sooner than later on that. So thank you.

Okay. And this was a previously approved COA that changes the 10 new windows, is that correct?

The change of the 11 new windows and elimination of a ramp into the basement. Right.

Okay. Anybody else have any questions on this item?

Just for clarification, it was some like storefront windows or something because it was an office space and now it's residential?

Allison Emmett, Quorum Architects. I'm the principal design architect. We were no windows on the north facade. Right. It's ethos. It was put in by the county. Okay. It was kinda noncharacter defining.

Okay.

We'll use the architectural term blah.

Okay. Okay.

And so we're cutting new storefront windows into units to get natural light into the slide. Question. So I already were on the upper floors. So they will match except they will look a little bit they'll be a little bit different because they're 1st Floor, but the profiles will all be the same.

Okay. Good. Thanks for that explanation. So there were a certain amount, Ted,

that you

had units and now you have more?

No. We actually had the exact same amount. It's just that we're spreading them out in We better are actually cutting in skylights for natural light on some of them, which was expensive, number one, and not great for residential, number two. So we've kind of moved all that around. So it's a more natural layout for the building. The only thing we have to add are these windows that create the new natural light.

Like what, one and two bedrooms in this?

One, two and three.

There's three.

That's two.

We actually Lofted units on the 1st Floor.

On the 1st Floor where the actual real storefront is. These are all because this used to be a Schuster's department store. We have lofted units in there. Would be really cool.

Just so we don't have bedrooms on that front area, we sort of set them back and raised one up and then we have two down below that have borrowed light from the street.

Okay. Good. All right. Do we have a motion to approve with staff conditions?

So moved.

So moved. Do I have a second?

Second.

All in favor?

Aye. Aye.

Thank you, guys.

All right. Thank you. Thanks.

Appreciate it. Thanks.

All right. Moving on to item 251999, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for landscape alterations, rehabilitation and other work at the former stablecarriage house known as 2007 East Windsor Place in the North Point South Historic District for Wade Weissman. Okay.

So this is the carriage house for one of the 1890s mansions on Lafayette. It has long been separated from the main house and used as its own residence. But it truly was a carriage house for one of the Lafayette Place mansions. This is generally what we're looking at. It is kind of a long list of projects, new fabric awning at the existing balcony, new doors at the balcony, new awning over the front entryway, new entry new better the storeroom retaining wall, new gas lantern at the corner here over lighting the driveway and the entrance to main entrance to the property.

New roof shingles, repair existing windows, new gutters and downspouts, new concrete driveway, new concrete retaining wall, stacked modified stacks on retaining wall in the north elevation for fenced enclosure for garbage cans and replaced the chimney with a larger, more historically appropriate design. So yes, as the building has been was designed as a carriage house, it has lacked some features that would make it more functional as a residence. This project will also reverse some previous inappropriate alterations like the metal chimney and some out of character fenestration. You can see on the right, it's got one proper carriage door and one probably mid-1960s wood overhead door. And several windows throughout the building have been replaced.

They will be the bad windows will be replaced with new wood windows. The good windows will be repaired in place. The existing chimney, which you can the square little thing up here is actually faux painted metal. It's not actually brick. So I don't know what happened over the history of the building, but this is carriage house is from about 1905.

There's no there's if there was an original chimney, that's not it. It would not be unusual for a carriage house to be heated and have a chimney. So I think it's reasonable to allow for that. The entry, the garage door surround, some improvements in the detailing. I do feel like the support brackets on the entry ornament might be a little too much detail, but that could up to the discretion of the commission.

The gas lamp is also a little unusual. We've usually said no to gas, but this is right at the end of the time when gas might have been used. So it could be fine if the commission has no objection. The landscaping stuff is barely worth mentioning, all just very nice work and general improvements. And then I do have a concern about adding shutters since it was while it was a very a nice carriage house, it feels like adding shutters is a little too much turning it into a residence from what it was historically.

But really the only thing that I would say is a consequential issue is the shutters because it just don't seem right on a carriage house. So that being said, prove with conditions. One condition we always put in that awnings be a real do We to do

chimney just to be consistent with our design standards for all

that. Chimneys even though it's new. So recommending approval with those conditions and I will throw it to the architectural team and owner.

Awesome. Please just introduce yourself.

I'm Whit Weisman. I'm the architect as well as the owner of the building. My colleague is Stephanie Engelking. She's been helping me with the submission. So we're here to answer any questions you might have.

So do any commissioners have any questions?

Yeah.

The building was two condos. I don't know when it was turned into two condos. I bought one and renovated it and then about four years ago I purchased the lower unit which was owned by an absentee owner and have been sort of searching to what to do with the property. Does have a lot of deferred maintenance issues. The owner downstairs just kind of objected to putting any money into anything and so now that I own both properties, I would like to see the shell brought up to a reasonable level of compliance.

Latest windstorm blew a ton of shingles off of the roof because it's like 40 years old. There are combination storm screens that I just love. They're aluminum. That's sarcastic. And so I want to rehab the windows.

The intent is to rehab, scrape down all the sort of existing finishes on it. And then I'd like to have custom storm screens put on it like the old fashioned way of doing it. The stoop on the front at the front door is probably not original and it's falling off the building. So it probably doesn't have foundations on it. There are a number of items that had changed over the years where that awning is on the 2nd Floor that used to be a stable and so there was two small doors that had a winch sticking out above it to bring hay bales up.

I love shutters and so it's just my way of dressing up that house a little bit. But it was a utility building and it was kind of a simplified mini me of the front house, which had been added on to a number of times, but it's a very prominent elevation as you come up Lafayette Hill. And it does have nice detail. It's got the corner coins. Right now, the neighbor has their electrical power sort of in a conduit across the corners of the house.

I'm working with We Energies to create an easement that would essentially be under the driveway and a directional board to that other property at my expense so that there aren't any more poles being added to the street. And I am just looking for upgrades to the house so that it lasts another one hundred and twenty years.

I'm not bothered by the shutters that much either actually. They kind of fill out the wall space.

It's a little utility and I think that there was a comment made about it being maybe tolerable on the 2nd Floor.

Tim, Right. Do you have a picture of the house that goes with the Carrot House?

Can. Yes, there

are comments about

being in a complementary style.

I should have put that in the PowerPoint, but I will pull it up on Google.

Thank you.

But I've looked to replace the garage door with a design that's custom so that it picks up on all the details of that arc top garage door that has been sealed in place with the diagonal bead board in the panels and, you know, there's a lot of wonderful little things on the building that I just really want to essentially emulate.

That brick one went in the center. He owns like four of them on Lafayette.

That's his house.

Is it Randy Ryan? Wait, does it Randy? He lives in that house. Yes.

I spoke with him last night.

Okay.

So does this carriage house a butt at the back of their property?

It used to be part of the property but it was subdivided off at some point, I think in the 80s.

But it's on the backside of this.

Yes. Yes. It's behind. Now this building has also had a number of additions to it, to the back of it to the side of it to create, I think, a separate apartment entrance. And I know Randy had a number of plans for adding a garage or a carriage house to hit that property in the back.

He has no garage? No. Parks on the street?

Yes. Does he really? Well, now he parks at one of the other properties.

He's got properties. Because like

I said, he owns like he seriously owns three or four of them in Lafayette. Okay.

And he proposed, Bob, if you remember, he proposed a kind of drive thru garage on that east side about ten years ago. Yes. He started it too. Well, did he even started it?

Dug for the foundations and then had a really bad winter and buckled the foundation. And so he ended up digging it out and filling it back in.

Interesting. And then on that block, I think it seems to be about thirty years ago, Boris Guckman had Did you know that history Across of street. Across the street, right.

The single story coach house with the two Right. Stories added,

So that challenge of just sort of storage carriage houses into livable units, and that was about thirty years ago when he came to us with that.

It's I've lived in Milwaukee my whole life. It is one of the coolest little

It's really interesting

because it has like six carriage houses. And there's a carriage house behind the carriage house and it's funky and there's zero lot line and it's just a really unusual place to be and that's why I fell in love

with it.

Yes. Well, that's good and you've done a lot of historically sensitive projects. Now you have shutters on the door, right? Is that what I'm looking at?

On the front door?

Not Well, there. Right?

Oh, no. That's

it's a window.

It will remain a window. It just goes down pretty low. It does. Yes. So it's Yeah. Down to the floor window.

It's it's actually two windows that are

stacked on

each other. Okay. But it's a kind of a tall opening.

A kind of double hung, not a triple hung, not a Thomas Jefferson, triple hung windows, which are cool also if you go to Monticello.

I love those triple hung windows.

Yes, that's pretty impressive. And they're great.

Yes.

Okay. So shutters on there also. Personally, the shutters find on that Top Floor near the coins, you get close to the the shutters get close to the coins. There's just a little bit On the one? Yes, on each of those sides, but outside of that. So you're kind of thinking to be sensitive to the thing that the house that you showed us, Tim? Yes. Randy's house, which didn't have shutters. Right? Well, so It had the coins and it looked in the brick, all that, but it

It had a much more ornamental cornice,

you know, with dental Yeah. And there was some slight slight difference. Yeah.

So that's kind of what I was using as sort of that's sort of what I was trying to do with that awning over the front door was to have a graceful bracket that held that semi flat roof out so that it would cantilever and not need additional supports. Sure.

And then the last question that I have is on that drawing, it says retaining you have the wall, modify existing stack stone wall for access to new. And then on your thing, you have a new stone wall, right? So on your drawing, says a new concrete it says new stone clad retaining wall with stone cap.

That's on the side of the where the entry stoop is. Right. And when I have to replace that, right now you kind of walk up and there's a railing around it. And what I would like to do is extend that retaining wall back and face it with the same land and stone that's at the foundations. Okay. So that I can go right from my my stoop and walk to the backyard without having to go down and then up the hill.

Yeah. And that looks fire. As I was looking, it's going, well, what's the nature of that wall? But it's around the rest of the house, so you're just extending that

The same character.

Around to the and then that's a concrete driveway or something.

It's concrete. You get all the papers and everything. And then it's street bricks. And the street bricks are 125 years old.

What are street brick?

Cobblestone? Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Granite. Yeah. Right. Okay.

They but the it's so, we're so, And garage if he ever has it.

Okay.

Sure. And the problem is is that between that, the house to the east, and the fact that I'm trying to create a a garden in the back of that this property, there's no room for snow to be shoveled, shoveled, especially after a winter like this. So I have invested into a snow melt system for that driveway

to Really? Be In the concrete? Heat code?

The what? The snow melt?

Yes. Heating in your concrete driveway on the exterior. Check didn't know that out. Initial did that quite a while ago and didn't realize till later that that actually is a code violation. It kind of makes some sense environmentally. But maybe that's been voided. Check that out. It is convenient. Oh, yeah. Big time convenience.

And I'm mean, unfortunately, I'm a semi I'm semi here over the winter months. Uh-huh. So, I am back every few weeks, but I also have an office elsewhere in the country that I work out of.

Yeah. Okay. Sure. Good.

All right. Those are my questions.

Okay.

So I am just trying to be proactive about.

Sure. Yep. Any

more questions from commissioners? Okay. There's some cross talk about shutters. Do we feel strongly about shutters?

I do not. I think there's a lot of attention to detail to this. And making this, you know, very attractive part of the neighborhood and addition to the tax base for the city and, you know, taking this into the future on a

Yeah.

Peaceful manner. So I'm with Matt. I do not have any strong objections to the shutters.

No. Okay.

So the motion we'll be looking for is a motion to approve with staff conditions except for the deny shutters per guidelines. We will take conditions one and eighteen.

Quick question. The awning over the front door, is that wood?

It is wood on the underside and copper on top.

Very nice. Do

I have that motion?

Okay. That identification with staff concerns. Excellent.

Alright. Do I have a second?

Second to approve.

All in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

What's the square footage interior? I

think total it's right around

2,400

square It's feet, two a good size It's now one unit basically. I'm sorry. You're converting it back to a single unit?

Eventually, yeah, that's the next sort of phase is to in the back of the you can't see it but in the back there's four carriage doors that were filled in with windows when they turned the 1st Floor into a condo. So the entire south facade is basically glass which is unusual for a building of this character and then that area we're fencing off to create a private courtyard back there. So yes, I think it's going to turn into a really great place to live. And it's a perfect location. All right. Thank you all.

Thank you. All right. Last item on this section here, Item 252,001, Resolution Relating to Certificate of Appropriateness for a mural on the south wall of 918 North Villar Phillips Avenue in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Historic Districtcomplex for Seeds of Health.

Okay. So this is the wall directly above that Sports Bar.

Goolsby. Goolsby is small.

Yes. It is so this wall has been painted for a very long time up until very recently. It also had metal screen over it that was taken off for this occupant. Originally built in 1918 with a 1923 edition and a 1960 edition. School moved in, in late twenty twenty one. Mural design, I'm mostly bringing it here because all the murals we have approved before have been on detachable panels. This one is going to be on mural cloth adhered to the building.

A metal cloth?

Mural cloth. Mural cloth. Synthetic fabric that is basically glued to the brick.

Yes.

Only concern that

indication is that it should be done with a breathable adhesive. I could not neither I nor the intern could find such an adhesive that was rated for exterior use. Shouldn't be too much of a problem, but this is why I wanted to bring it to the commission's attention. Meets pretty much all of our standards. We didn't when we did the mural design standards, we did intend to allow for the option of cloth.

It just hasn't come up yet. Everyone's ever since we in that policy, everyone's done panels instead. So designed by a local artist working with the school students, windows will be remain. This is the basic information. Oh, I'm not I haven't been sharing. Sorry.

I was waiting for that.

There we go.

As it thinks about it, no. There.

There we go.

Let's go back. Okay. Yes. The wall above major Goolsby's, like I said, painted for a very long time. As far as we can tell, there's never been any real effort to have it be a decorative wall surface.

Windows that are present will remain. General concept for evolve a little, but this is a general concept. And the mural cloth, there are options for mechanical manufacturer of the mural cloth does allow for mechanical installations rather than glue. I'm not necessarily opposed to the adhesive, but I believe I'll leave that to the commission's discretion.

That's kind of a technical question. Yeah.

Mean, could not. Yeah. Mean, you can do like metal rods and bolt it up like a signed drill with.

Well known, very very old office building in Easttown that had adhesive affixed to the brick and it pulls the face of the brick off, right? Yeah. Colby had Yeah.

Is terrible.

So maybe we ask for a little more evidence that the adhesive is readily removable and if not go for a mechanical installation? I think so. Yes.

Please. State your name and address please for

the record. My name is Matt Karvanic. I'm with Seeds of Health. I'm the facilities director. Address is 1445 South 32nd Street in Milwaukee. So we had seen prior to the meeting, you guys had made some comments so we did

a little bit of follow-up to that.

We had our mural artist reach out to the manufacturer and was able to get a material safety data sheet for that specific product and essentially it is a water based latex. So any product that she has listed on her material list are all water based either acrylic or latex. So cleanable, removable, not an oil product. You're talking about the actual adhesive that they use to adhere the panels to the wall with.

Panels made of cloth?

Yeah. They're like fabric panels. Yeah.

The adhesive the Maroflosh that's indicated here in the product data?

No, it's similar to the Maroflage but it's not from the same manufacturer.

Is it the Benjamin Moore stuff? Is that what Yes, that

that's the one.

Is that a gel adhesive like it says in the product data?

Correct, yes.

Now in the product data for removal, it says you basically have to use a pressure washer to remove it cleanly. We don't like pressure washers on masonry, correct?

You can if you keep it under 800 psi. Otherwise, you're basically violating state law. Really? Yes. They actually got it in pressure washing of historic buildings over 1,000 PSI is $1,000 a day fine to both the building owner and the contractor.

Yes. I mean, put that in the list of laws that have never been enforced, I'm

sure. Talk about

other people.

So But now that you said it out loud, Yeah. It's a revenue

Yeah. We'll be metering the PSI when this thing comes off Yeah. It seems kind of risky to put Yeah. It adhere something on to the brick structure. And I noticed in a lot of the other masonry items on here we have in all caps, you know, do not do this, that or the other thing to masonry materials.

Did you look into like a stretching of the fabric around maybe metal frames that wouldn't be visible?

Briefly, we did look at using metal frames for that. But I think based on the parameters for a mural, I don't know if we were able to use a frame like that.

I don't know.

The old mural is about 40 by 70.

It's a big

it's a bad boy.

That's not even a building.

Wide 40 high.

Directly. Yeah.

That's a big Tim, why are we going through this the mural cloth?

Why? Because we are

And what I'm getting at is this, that it's a painted side of a painted common wall building. Yes. Painted. I mean, that's And that's allowable by the Park Service. We know that. They allow that. If it's painted, you can paint it. I'm with you. I'm hesitant about this whole thing. We've got to review this in a couple of days for the 3rd Ward too. We've got a big one coming up in the 3rd Ward. But I guess I'm just trying to get back to the basics here before we start mechanically attaching. It means you got to drive into the brick or the mortar, okay. How many of those do you have to do? 70 feet, you said, by 50 feet?

Man, it's going be a checkerboard of those things to keep this from wind getting in and getting. And I'm starting to wonder why are going these lengths if it weren't a painted wall? Yes. Just a common wall, common brick, common wall. I said, you know, we can't paint it, but it's already painted, right?

Yes. It's already it's painted. It's probably been painted for I would assume painted since the since either Goolsbee's went up or the Journal moved in. Yeah.

So I guess I'm just trying to get the commission back to the roots of why we're going to such mental gymnastics here, paint the mural on the wall.

It's a great question.

But I'm willing to step down from that if someone has a good argument why

we There are shouldn't allow federal legal considerations for us requiring murals to be removable. There are significant rights that attach to the artist and they have rights of removal at certain point if it's altered in a certain way. It's legally a very terrible idea to have a mural that isn't removable.

But what if you

just This

is still would be up to the artist.

In your contract, artists won't agree to that is what you're saying. Yes.

You did a mural. Was that painted on your building or Yeah.

It was. But he does have he does have rights. We if we wanted to alter that side of the building, we would have to call him in to get approval.

That's painted on

the brick.

Yeah.

That's that's exactly why you do it removable because if the artist is unhappy about you wanting to remove it, they get to go take it off and keep it.

Well, this one you can't remove and salvage, right? You destroy it when you remove it, I assume.

Yes. The ward now, we've had the program last couple of years where there is outside of your building. There are actually dimensions of four feet by six feet or something. This is a huge thing. I mean, you'd have to do it, I guess, even as a clock in a series of sections, right? You're not going to get a 70 fiveforty one. No. It's sheet

good like any cloth.

Cloth was preferable for the artist because of the installation. So we'll have to do put a swing stage on the side of the building and her installation time is about two weeks currently because they're about five by five panels that go up individually. Otherwise, she'd be sitting up there for, you know, I'm not sure how long it would take us to do on a swing stage.

How long did it take the Caron Bell? Didn't that go quickly? On the side of the Dye Building? I couldn't believe it was like a week when that Caron Bell

Painted on the building or on panels?

Painted on the building.

Yeah. And Shepherd Fairey came in with stencils already created for how it was going to look, you know, all cut out, all ready to go. So, he had to do his team did it in three days.

Three days.

They know what to do but it was during COVID. It was winter. It was pretty awful. Had to be done before the DNC which didn't occur, and la la la, like that. But they knew how to put up a mural really fast. Needed a swing stage, definitely needed that.

Yes. It's an interesting point. I guess if it is penalized like the ones in the 3rd Ward, I guess the artist can take it away. But the artist still wouldn't don't they have some contractual restrictions? You can't just take their artwork off. No. Whether it's a painting or on a frame, like

The artist can sign away their rights, but they have to explicitly sign away their rights.

Yeah. And they don't do But the building also cannot take it off. So it's kind of like a ghost sign. Yeah. You know, forever. Right. Which I don't mind.

Right.

I like. On my building. But I also said to them, I have to do some tuck pointing. You know, it was five years ago or whatever it was. And I called them and said, I have to do some changes. Changes. What do you want to do about that? And they said, we'll come out and repair wherever you do your checkpointing. Okay. I'm happy with that.

Yeah. Raises a good question. How is maintenance done when these fabrics adhered onto the building? How will they you know, if they have to tuck point the building, obviously

Have you recently done that?

They're going to have to destroy

The the whole building was after we purchased it, the whole exterior was sealed painted in 2023.

And they did tuck pointing?

Yes. They tuck pointed, primed, painted. Correct. Yes.

When did this building become historic?

With the rest of the journal Complex. This was the Sentinels Building.

It's the block, yeah.

Yeah. With the whole block, One of the alternatives, it seems to So, be

bought the Sentinel. This was next to the Journal Building and then they moved the Sentinel into this one. I

see. Okay.

Would be maybe an adhesive, but man, the more I think about that adhesive on the brick. Yeah. That's good. And if it's good, even you were saying water based stuff. But, I mean, if it's a good marine type adhesive, that's not easy to take off. Plus, it's becoming kind of less open to the idea of the adhesive as opposed to just paint it.

Well, in the product data, it says it has to be removed with a pressure washer.

Yeah. So is it the artist's preference that it be on a fabric?

For this particular project, yeah. So she doesn't always do this. Who's the artist? Tia Richardson. Her business or whatever you want to call it is Cosmic butterfly. So she's done quite a few around the city and this will be the second one that she would have done on the fabric. Otherwise, she just does it directly on the building face.

I think the to me the fabric gives it the illusion that it's removable. But it's really not. I mean, it is because you have to pressure wash the thing off, but you can't because you can't take it off and salvage it. And so therefore the artist has rights for it not to be destroyed, correct? So this is, to Matt's point, you might as well just be asking us to paint the brick, correct? Mean, the

It probably will have less damage Right?

To paint it?

Yeah. The fabric would.

Because then you could still maintain the building and then just patch up the paint or whatever. Where you do it with this, you can't really maintain the building at all.

Yeah. I mean, I like exploring the idea, but the more I think about it, the more problems it kind of raises than it

And the adhesive, we don't know how it will react, how it will I mean, you're putting something on there that has already says it has to be removed in a manner that we don't like to do on masonry structures.

Did you by the way, did you say she had one around the city that was adhered like that?

She yeah. She said she has one other one that I'd have to ask her what location

that Okay. If you could, give that to Tim. I would like to see that. We have deal with this in the 3rd Ward now. So on Wednesday, on Wednesday's noon meeting. If

Half a month, will that hurt?

If that's your recommendation, I will wait for your recommendation. I mean, I know you probably want to work through your third board thing and see how that

Same questions are

going to come up. Right.

If you could do that favor for us, get it to Tim and then get it to me before Wednesday's meeting so we can talk about it.

Okay.

And Tim, if you could like distribute that information, where Is is it Black Cat Alley?

What's that?

Is she in Black Cat Alley?

I don't know. I looked at when we initially started working with her, I looked up her website and a couple things initially but since then I haven't. Okay. Yeah. I can send Tim whatever I have.

Thank you. I will also since that came up during this project, I had a city attorney produce a legal memo on Visual Artists Rights Act and murals. I will send that around too. It may inspire an ordinance change too.

There's a federal statute on this?

Yes. Several cities have enacted some pretty strict mural processes because of the federal legislation that makes us an intellectual property nightmare.

Another thing I will note is that in the materials and supplies, we have got the Loxon Masonry Primer, which can't be removed, right? That's painted onto the surface of the brick.

Yes. That is very specifically a breathable paint though.

Right.

So I guess I'll make a motion to hold it to next month.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's alright.

Alright.

Look at this more.

Are we at least approving the concept of the mural?

I think we could hold off for everything.

All right. Yeah. Okay. Matt has made the motion to hold till next month. Do we have a second?

Second.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? All right. With that the motion carries. Thank you, sir.

Thank you for your time.

Yes. Thank you. All right. The following files, items 10 through what do we have here? 27, thank you, represent staff approved COAs. And do we have a motion to approve these as a single? All right. There we go. Do we have a second?

Second.

Second. All right. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right. Motion carries. Item 28, review and approval of the minutes from the last meeting on 03/02/2026. All members received those in their emails. We all reviewed them. Does anybody have any issues with that? Do I have a motion to approve?

So move.

Second?

Second.

All right. And all in favor? Aye. Aye. All right. And item 29, updates and announcements.

Okay. We have eight nominations for awards. I will well, Andrew will be covering next month and probably the awards ceremony due to some travel plans I have. I will make sure the awards PowerPoint for gets sent out prior to voting this time. Okay. That's about it. I may or may not be here at the May meeting. We'll see.

The award ceremony at the pass?

I'm arriving pretty late the night before.

Same place. Best place.

Probably best place, yes. Date and time is on our website. It's the Thursday before Memorial Day weekend.

Okay. All right. Any other updates or announcements?

How many nominees do we have?

Eight. We

do have

eight. Yes.

I was worried for a

bit and then as usual everyone filed on that line day pouring in. Okay.

All right.

I see the Wisconsin Center District applied for COAs. Yes. Good for them.

All right. I would entertain a motion to adjourn right now. So moved. All right. Second?

Second.

All in favor? Aye. All right. This concludes the meeting. Thank you, everybody.