Town Commission - Special Meeting

Okay, yeah, that's fine.

Okay, we are recording. We are here for our hearing on the budget.

This is a special town commission meeting, our first hearing in September. Wait, I'm not on.

We are here September 3rd, 2026, 603. We are here for our special town commission meeting on the budget. This is the first hearing on the budget. In town hall, did I say everything?

The town clerk will please call the roll. Okay, Mayor Allison Dennington. Here. Vice Mayor Terry Cronin. Here. Commissioner Anna Butler. Here. Commissioner Tim Reed. Here. Commissioner Sherry Corey. Here. Town Manager Amory Smith. Here. Finance Manager Jennifer Kerr. Here. Police Chief Tim Zander. Here. Public Works Director Tom Davis. Here. Building Official Jeff Parsons. Here. Town Attorney Ryan Knight is joining us via Teams, and Town Clerk Sid Jones is also present.

All right, we will stand to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Okay, we will have a moment of silence. Okay. Uh, I will read the civility pledge, the commission and the staff of the town of Melbourne beach pledge to conduct all public discourse in a civil manner. The mayor and all members of the commission will treat one another with courtesy and respect and ask the public to do the same towards the commission, each other and towards staff. We will be respectful of one another, even when we disagree and we will direct all comments toward the issues. We will avoid personal attacks. So now I will open it up to public comment for anything that we will not be voting on or there's not on the agenda. As a special meeting, and it's a hearing, the budget, the resolutions are on the agenda. So when we vote on those, there will be an opportunity for comment. But if anyone would like to come and speak about anything that's not on the agenda, now is your time. Come on up.

of Ocean Avenue, that house across the street. I think you probably realize by now that I spend a lot of time on the porch and I watch stuff going by. It's just interesting what happens in this town. Before I let you know that I would be delighted if you were to raise my taxes to the absolute maximum, because I know that means nothing to you, but I would really like to see you get some things accomplished in town, I'd like to tell you something that happened last Thanksgiving while I was sitting on my porch minding my own business. I heard some commotion. I didn't quite know what it was, but I got up to investigate. There was a lovely lady working Thanksgiving at the post office. Somehow she'd gone out the back door and it locked behind her. She was inside a fence. She was locked inside that fence. She couldn't get out. We couldn't find a phone number to call her. Her cell phone, her keys were locked in the building. At least I had mine, but we couldn't figure out who to call. So I figured out who to call. Who would be working on Thanksgiving in the afternoon that could help this poor woman? And I called the Melbourne Beach Police Department non-emergency line. Pretty soon an officer showed up. He figured out the number to call. And we had someone from the federal government coming with keys to get her out of there and get her back to work. And while we waited and kept that nice lady company, the officer had some interesting things to say. And something that just surprised the heck out of me was that that man who works 12-hour shifts and defends this town has a wife and kids at home and he has a part-time job as a driver with Amazon to make ends meet. How does that happen? You're not paying him enough that he has to get a second job just to help make ends meet? Let that resonate.

Thank you. Yes, my mother was a public school teacher and she had a second job also. Next. I'm just saying, public school teachers or public service, you don't get paid a lot.

Susan Stark, 307 Fifth Avenue. I thought that this was a hearing and that the public comments would come at the beginning, but I understand that because it's... We will have public comment again because we will have a vote.

In the past when it was a budget,

Right.

You know, but yes. So the public the way not every town has a general public comment. Sometimes they only have it on the issue, but we have a general. So you don't comment on the issues on the on the agenda. You comment when we have the vote. So let me this will definitely we'll have to have a vote.

Right. So let me just take a moment to thank every one of you for taking time out of your day to meet with me this past week. I really appreciated that. Enjoyed speaking to you all for over an hour.

expressing my concerns and you answered questions that i need a clarification for and that's what's the beauty of a small town and so thank you for that thank you thank you for your time meeting with all of us also thank you anyone else okay seeing uh nothing no one no one else we will close general public comment the uh only item on the agenda um five public hearings public hearing on the town's fiscal year 2026 2027 so fiscal year 27 millage rate and annual budget town manager but before we start there are two walk-on documents there is a document a one-page document that was on up here that is titled, it's one page, single-sided, Town of Melbourne Beach Millage Proceeds Calculation, Fiscal Year 27, Proposed Budget, Ad Valorem Revenue Generation, and it is a color document. This will be supplemented to the record if this is additional. There is also 29 page memo shorter than last time that I have provided to all the commissioners and the manager that just reiterates my objections from the last time and includes my 250 word statement to be attached to the minutes after the vote so that will be there's a copy on the public table that will also be provided online So those are the two walk-ons. I will now turn it over to the manager. And I will say, because we got version three last night at 10, and I had several things this morning. I mean, I was at, I don't know, four o'clock working on this. So I haven't even read the version two of this fully. I skimmed it, but so hopefully, anyway.

Good evening, mayor, commissioners. We have prepared for you two versions of the budget. Our last meeting, you asked me to prepare a budget at the rollback rate, which we had presented previously. And so you have that. But a number of you had come forth and asked me, just said, you know, we didn't really get time. We didn't feel like you had time to discuss all the items you wanted to discuss. you know I so I prepared a budget at the four point six the flat rate taking into consideration some of the comments from each of you that had commented to me and I have presented it they are two very different types over two very different budgets because we use different sources of And we'll be happy to go over that with you. Also this week, I just wanted to mention that we did get our final quotes from our insurance company. We thought we would get an $85,000 savings. The savings came up to $97,467. So almost $100,000. In addition, with our banker, we did get an 80 point, what am I gonna say? Anyways, we got an increase in our interest rate on our savings account, and we estimated that would be an additional $25,000. So we added those savings to our budget These are some of the efficiencies that we talk about in the budget message. The budget message talks about some of the things that are amazing about our town and why we are doing some of the things we are going to be doing in the next fiscal year. The mayor also commented And rightfully so that there was nothing in there about the homestead tax credit amendment so we added a little bit about that too in there. So I did want to mention that you know as you were giving us comments we did. try to accommodate as many as possible, but there's a certain point in time where we have to cut that off and provide you the information. So we'd be happy to answer questions. And I just finally wanted to thank my staff and especially Jenny and Sid here for staying very late for a number of nights just to get this to you. And again, it was a lot more difficult than one might think. It's because we were producing two budgets that are different and they were using different funding sources. So there might be some small errors or something like that, but nothing we wouldn't be willing to fix. The last thing I'll say is you will have the budget at four point six and the budget at the rollback rate the budget at four point six does not utilize any funds from the parks funds and for salaries, that's probably the biggest differentiator and why you will see some areas will have more money or less money for that 4.6 millage rate because we were not using any of the park funds for salary. We had to shave some from each of the different departments. And so you might see there's more actually in the rollback rate in one category, but less in the 4.6 rate. And that's because we had to make up for that funding. But again, as I've said before, this is a budget. This is our best estimates of what we think we would need and what we can live with. And there's always things we can do, budget amendments if we need to in the future.

Okay. I'd like to make a motion to approve to adopt the millage rate of 4.6 for the fiscal year 2027 budget.

Second.

Okay, really quick, I do have one question though for the town attorney about something that we spoke about earlier today. Is there an issue with the resolutions needing to be updated because of the trim statute that I mentioned to you and you told me on the phone that you were going to be revising

the resolutions because they did have a facially an issue on the face so the one resolution earlier today that you're not that you're not talking about right now that comes after the adoption of the millage rate okay for the adoption of the budget uh there would just be an exhibit a added to that resolution which would be the uh budget that you would approve either the 4.6 or the 4.

397. and the language in the resolution itself complies with the statute in terms of stating the carryover what what if that that information that i sent you you don't have to state that language in the statute or you don't have to state that language in the resolution okay But what we have in the packet is not the updated one that you're going to do that's going to include the exhibit because it can't be incorporated by reference. Is that correct?

So I did send over a revised resolution. I don't know what you have in front of you. But that's the next resolution.

Is that what it is? We'll get to that then. Okay. Does anybody have any questions before... We have debate because we do have a motion and a second. Does anyone need any clarification? Seeing none, okay. We have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion or debate? I wrote, there's 29 pages that will be put online hopefully tonight, soon, that contains my discussion, so I'm not gonna.

Public comment.

of care for the first and then we go. She asked about public comment. I'm sorry I didn't really get commissioner read you recognized.

OK so on the the the budget message at the I'm assuming is the same like largely in in both the both proposals here and I'd say it's a good improvement over what we've seen in the past. It's a good story. A couple questions related to the story is that on page 10 of the package here, which is below the chart of the millage rates, You know, in here it says, at this millage rate, no additional capital projects move forward, including stormwater and street paving. So it's kind of a low-key message there to me. I thought that was probably more of a bumper sticker type of message. and that that. Mister read if I could interrupt you are we talking about the rollback budget because we're voting on the he's a 4.6. I think both of them carry the same language.

So that would we just we just voted on 4.6. But that would be page that would be a different.

Continue to jury. Yeah, it's a page 10.

He said page 10, but that's the that's the rollback budget. It is a little bit different as the town manager said.

Yes, it is page 87.

It's 87.

Package pages of us are talking about. All right, so the point being that the stormwater, the large reason of the way you get to the 4.6 is that there's no money really being added for stormwater. So it's contingent largely, the stormwater hinges on the bond passing. And so I think that message needs to be highlighted in this package.

In the 4.6 package? Yes. Okay, when the 4.6 budget, there is money for stormwater, which is not in the rollback rate. So that's why I didn't put it in there.

It's not enough to do the work that's needed.

But there's, well, my point is that there's money to do some work, but it may not, you know, there is none for the rollback rate. So there's $77,078 in fund 341 in the 4.6. And there's zero in the rollback rate. No, I'm sorry, 8,000. 3,000. 3,000, I'm sorry, 3,000 from a salary that was donated.

So that's not enough to do the base in 10 work. I guess I guess the. If the bond doesn't get approved and this would be the budget at that 4.6 is approved. What do you what is your answer to the residents in base in 10 then regarding their their stormwater project.

You would have to take it out of reserves part of it, but you wouldn't have to take out nearly as much because you already have money in there. If you all decide to take money out of 141, there is some money in there as well for stormwater. think 111,000 or something like that. So you do have like about 180 some thousand that you could put towards that. That would already be in the budget in the 4.6.

So largely you'd be coming back to the commission to ask to access the reserves funds largely?

If you're talking about, well, it would be significantly different amounts. I think Basin 10 was about $330,000 or something like that was the estimate we got. It was a little over $300,000.

Yeah, it's close to $400,000.

It was a little over $300,000, that $30,000 I thought, but for the construction part of it. If you're saying you have about $170,000, $180,000 in one budget and not in the other, you'd be taking out significantly less from reserves between the two budgets.

Also, related to accessing reserves, we had previously agreed that we would have a draft of the reserve policy by the time we got to this point in the budget discussion. Do we have that draft of the reserve policy?

Ryan, I think you'd sent something, but I think it was a really rough draft. Is that correct? Did you send something? Because I know that was your assignment.

Yes. Yes, I did send a reserve draft policy last week.

Okay. So he sent something. It was a really rough draft. No, he sent it to me. But we haven't had a chance to talk about it at all. ANYWAYS, IT'S SOMETHING WE CAN BRING UP AT THE NEXT MEETING, WHICH ALSO WOULD BE THE SECOND BUDGET HEARING MEETING. I CAN SHARE THAT WITH YOU. I JUST DON'T THINK IT REALLY, IT JUST NEEDS A LOT MORE WORK THAN WHAT HE HAS PRODUCED FROM THE FINANCE STANDPOINT.

IN THESE MESSAGES, I WAS ALSO COMMUNICATED TO, YOU KNOW, SOME Commitments that I was looking to have Made in regards to in the budget either either way either way you go here. So the one was the the reserve policy And we had previously had decided agreed here that we would have a draft at this point, which we don't also was looking for a commitment to a mid-year budget review and And I thought that could have been contained in your budget message to do that. And that we should have been in here.

I would just comment that that would be a decision of the commission. I can't necessarily make that decision if they want to do that. I'd be happy to do that. You know, I think it's a good practice. I would be supportive.

I'd be supportive of that.

Okay. All right, so we, I mean.

There's also a commitment I was looking for, you know, that we had a special fund management policy as well. And I gave time, you know, frames in there in quarter, you know, based on quarter for doing those. So I'd really think those need to be a part of this message. I mean also and the other commitment was that we had a a full stormwater and road costs projection. So that the citizens residents taxpayers of the town understand the complete picture of what we think is out there for for all you know outside of what the bond. IS GOING TO START TO ADDRESS THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE COMPLETE PICTURE OF WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE FOR TO ADDRESS ROADS AND STORM WATER HOLISTICALLY AND THAT'S GOING TO BE A MULTI-YEAR THERE.

At the 4.6 rate, you could start in October to get the stormwater master plan updated. So should the GEO bond resolution pass, you would have that plan together so that you could start right away once you got the bond funding. And I've also talked to Public Works Director Tom Davis about the study for the roads. He's talking to his colleagues in the Atlantic

YOU'RE DOING SOME ROAD WORK THERE AND HE'S SEEING IF HE CAN TRY TO GET A CONTRACTOR ENGINEER TO START DOING THAT WORK AND JUST TRYING TO GET SOME ESTIMATES SO RIGHT AND THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE THESE ARE VERBAL THINGS WE AND THERE'S NOTHING THAT UH TIES IT TO REALLY HAPPENING SO I'M LOOKING FOR SOMETHING MORE TIES IT TO SOMETHING TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO UM AND I THINK THE BUDGET MESSAGE IS IS A PLACE TO DO THAT UM

Okay, well, if your colleagues are agreeable to that, then, you know, and if they ask me to do so, I'll do so, absolutely.

And we would add that to the budget for the second hearing?

not sure he's done but i don't mean to i don't mean to interrupt so then then the you added the in in your budget message you added the um the um the section on the debt which um thank you for for doing that um what but what's not in there for the debt is the um the bond and and then of course that would at this point would be a tentative but it could be presented that way as tentative as to what we think that would be because if that, then there would be a first, so we kind of have, there's an idea of what the first draw is and what the cost principal interest and the millage, associated millage would be for that. So I think that's important for people that are interested, looking at this and trying to get the total total tax picture, which is the assessment that's coming from the town of Melvin Beach that shows up in their ad valorem, right? And then as well as the stormwater assessment that's showing up as non-ad valorem. And then if the bond is there, then there's going to be a separate millage item on their bill there too. So it's really the sum of those three things dollar-wise that they would want to see to understand their complete tax from the town.

Okay, so do you mind if I get some clarification? I do talk about the general obligation bond under the section improving infrastructure and planning for the future, and I do mention it there. Are you wanting me to run some, would put in some?

I would say in the debt section that we put a best guess of what you think the bond would be, and what you think you have in mind is the first draw if we're talking about two million or three million and then what the Millage rate associated would be that I mean the interest rate is going to be subject to the market at that that time as well by in you we could state it as you know This is tentative. We can we can update it once We get to that point if we get to that point and with the accurate numbers. And you have some projections from the bond salesman to use for interest rates and whatever. So then there's at least some framework there.

Yeah, the reason I'd want to do that is because, I mean, even they give us two sets of numbers, depending on if the Homestead Tax Credit passes. And I know with your budget messages, you want to try to be as crisp as possible. And, you know, I think we'd be guessing. I mean, if that's what the commission wants me to do, I'll do it. But, you know, I was just a little reluctant to put in numbers that, you know, even they were saying could be this or could be that. But depending on a tax credit, that may or may not happen. So it's almost like it's like double. It's like this bond, the GO bond may or may not happen. So you may or may not have that there. and the amount that you would be paying if that bond passed still also depends on whether this homestead tax credit may or may not pass. So it's like double guessing and I just, I was a little reluctant to do that, but again, if the commission wants me to do that and use what the financial advisor put in the presentation, I can do that, but I'll reference it as coming from PFM and not from the town finance office or town manager's office.

I mean I understand and I do think people do know about the tax measure but our code does say that you put in the budget message sort of trends so trends are forward-looking and therefore are not fact now but a trend is something I do think the tax however at the same time you know there's the issue of something that's going to be on the ballot and are you advocating for against because we are going to have a bond on the ballot so I think getting some kind of very neutral, basic language. It was one of the things I mentioned, but I put it in there as minor, not having the tax, it was not a killer thing for me, it was other issues, but anyway.

So I do have the language on there on page eight, like a paragraph about the geo bond, but what I'm saying is if you want me to do more and use PFM's estimates, I will put it in the debt section, I'm just explaining why I did not because, you know, it's like double guessing.

Yeah, I get it. I agree, yeah, I understand. Yeah, so I did write something.

I agree with your reasoning. Yeah, you can totally categorize it make it clear this is tentative, this is not final, it will be updated when and if the bond is formalized. But I mean right now there's no information other than if people were come to the, came to the meetings and got the packages that related to the bond, there's nothing public facing out there, there's nothing on our website or really highlighting it to know that it's out there.

Yeah, I agree. We are working on that language too. We just had to do two different budgets, so we just kind of put all the resources there. But yeah, we will definitely have that. But again, if the commissioners would like me to write out more on the in the debt section and about a tentative general obligation bond, I can move the part from page eight over there and add a little bit more. If you want me to add the charts, you just need to tell me that and then I will reference it. But my estimation, I was reluctant to do it, because like I said, it's like you're double guessing. The last thing I'd want you all to do is have this budget message out there saying, oh, it's going to just cost this or whatever, and then it's going to be a lot more because then you'll have angry residents. So I didn't feel comfortable putting numbers out there. But again, it's up to the commission what you all would like to do. You just let me know.

So I'd be happy to, I guess... maybe added since we're talking millage rate i guess at this point uh... i could add as a motion to whatever later or i can add it as a uh... modification to them the motion that's here now i uh... yes other next time uh... would it be sufficient the uh... information

that was given to us that quotes estimated millage levy on pages three, four, and five of the information that was given to us at the presentation. Would that be sufficient to meet your needs? And that way we're not putting the town into a box by saying it's gonna absolutely be this or that.

I thought I was very careful to say that we weren't proposing it's going to be this or that, that we were just showing that this is what it could look like.

Excuse me, would you like a copy of this so you can see it? Commissioner?

What are you looking at?

I'm looking at the presentation that was given to us. If you'd like to see it. And that's what I'm recommending maybe would suffice.

Are you talking about the presentation from before? Yes. Oh.

The one that shows millage? Go ahead and give it to him. I think I've seen it already. I don't need the... I'm just asking if that would meet your request.

Yeah, that's reasonable type of information to have, so...

I wouldn't be opposed to adding that if if the town manager is comfortable, you can give it to him. I'm fine. Can I just if you want to add that? Comfortable with it.

While you're looking at that, Mr Knight. So you looked at Florida statute section 166.2412 and Florida statute section 129.03 3B. You looked at those?

Because... Yeah, what's the specific question?

That the resolution, whether it's defective because it only, and the budget goes with it, but it only appropriates, it only deals with one fund and the statute itself says each fund. It doesn't say each major fund, doesn't say...

know it says each fund i mean i'll read the statute section two if you'd like um no i haven't pulled up so section one so you haven't read it 241 deals with the tentative budget does not deal with a resolution

OK, but there are other sections of the one of them being 129.0336. There's but that one is incorporated in and it does relate to the budget resolution itself, I believe.

Which specific section are you talking about?

Section 129.0336 or 3B.

Yeah, this talks about a summary statement to be advertised one time in a newspaper. Okay.

Yeah, we do that.

All right. Commissioner Reed, were you finished? No.

Just one other last comment was in the budget message is that your pie charts from your other presentations didn't make it in there. I think those pie charts are a good thing to have in the message.

yeah I think we are supposed to officially take a motion if that's what I mean because yeah so there's a motion on the floor you can make a friendly amendment yeah so would somebody like to make a friendly amendment sort of being discussed and like just but they have been discussed before I believe and it was never taken up but now the manager is saying she will do them at the Commission agrees but we don't have a formal vote so Because honestly, if we get to the next thing, it could just be not done and say, well, we don't have a vote. In the past three years, that is what has happened. So we do need to have a vote, yeah.

I think Commissioner Reid's recommendations are good. I just think we could list them so that we know what the town staff needs to do and we can add it as a friendly amendment. And then at the next draft meeting, we'd have that ready. All right? Commissioner Reed, can you list them?

I'm going to need your – yeah.

So would you like to maybe – here's a suggestion. You're amenable to making an amendment. Would you like to request that Commissioner Reed give you sort of the statement?

The verbiage that he used or that we're going to use for the amendment would be great.

Or he can just make the amendment himself and then –

I prefer I made the motion and I'm happy to do it.

I just want to make sure the amendment is so yeah, so looking for a reserve fund policy, okay, I THE MIDYEAR COMMITMENT TO RESERVE FUND POLICY. A COMMITMENT TO A MIDYEAR REVIEW BUDGET REVIEW. A COMMITMENT TO A SPECIAL FUND MANAGEMENT POLICY. A COMMITMENT TO FOR A FULL ROAD WATER A COMMITMENT TO A FULL ROAD AND STORM WATER COST and then I'd like to see the pie charts back in the message as well.

I think you left out that the main one that we were. The thing that I sent down to you.

I'm sorry and the addition of the bond to the debt section.

Okay, so I have a commitment to a mid-year budget review, a commitment to, do you have it? Reserve fund. Reserve fund policy.

Policy. A commitment to a special fund management policy. COMMITMENT TO FULL ROAD AND STORMWATER COST ASSESSMENT? WOULD THAT BE? PROJECTION. PROJECTION. THANK YOU. PIE CHARTS SPECIFICALLY?

IT'S BASICALLY TWO PIE SHARPS, ONE FOR REVENUE AND ONE FOR THE EXPENSES, YES.

PIE CHARTS FOR REVENUE AND EXPENSES. AND THE PIE SHARPS FOR add the GEO bond to the debt.

Okay, so we have basically the six things. Three commitments, commitment to mid-year budget review, commitment to a special fund policy, commitment to a reserve fund policy. Four is a full road and stormwater project description estimate. projection projection cost projection five is pie charts there's two pie charts that are apparently uh that would go in in the budget message i take it uh about revenue and expenditure okay and then number six uh would be that you'd revise the budget message uh vis-a-vis the geo bond and these sort of estimates to be able to put in the message now i do want to make one so um

So, Mr. We have a motion.

No, I know, but I have a I just want to make sure something is clear to everybody or mystery. So, Commissioner Reid, if you're getting these prospective commitments in the future, they can always change afterwards and just literally decide well we're not going to do that afterwards and there is no I mean for whatever reason a new commission with three votes could say you know I know we agreed to that but we we just were fine with how it is and also there's no specifics on the length or detail of these reserved but you're okay with that okay all right uh so we have a friendly amendment that there will be six items and which of these will be presented uh two of these will be presented at the next meeting because they relate to the budget message correct and then the rest of them the pie charts and the budget message the rest of those are all sometime in the future yes or are any of these special funds for the next i think these all can be encompassed in the budget message Okay. Okay. So all of these commitments themselves will be mentioned in the budget message.

Yes.

Okay. And then we'll also be done. Okay. All right. Uh, and you're satisfied. Okay. So we have, uh, and you'll, you'll make that motion. Okay. So we have a motion from commissioner Butler visa V those six, um, items, uh, mentioned by commissioner Reed, and that has been seconded by commissioner Corey. Uh, is there any other public discussion? um sorry discussion um among us i i'm just going to read this related to the resolution and again my objections in detail are in my 29 page little memo but page um eight of that the the resolutions uh both of them um they adopt the amount But the statute, and mentioned the general fund and fund 125, but section 166.241 says at a minimum that the adopted budget must show for each fund, for each fund, budgeted revenues and expenditures by organizational unit. And then of course our code chapter 15 requires more. The resolutions themselves do relate to then the budget that gets passed, which is gonna be attached to these resolutions. And, and therefore they are part of the resolution and the budgets themselves don't comply with that. Um, and version three did get better because I've been sending the different, all of the anomalies or the things that don't match up. And then those I've been sending right away. There's been being corrected, but each time there's been the introduction of new issues, things that don't match up, which I have outlined again. several of the items though they don't um they still haven't ever been corrected or explained and there is a bunch of expenditures that literally should not change because they're not related to the millage um and yet they do and they skew they they skew what's left over in order to say this message of there's under the rollback there's nothing going in um you know to improvements so i mean there's there's carryover issues that are carried in one but not the other not explained um again the the paying the town attorney more and paying the planner more still is in version three that's never been fixed and look if there's a reason why you're gonna pay the same a town attorney more under the lower budget then okay but that like that why like why when you are taxing people less What is the, that you're gonna pay the town attorney more? The reason why those numbers came up, we never had the rollback budget. They came up when talking about the 4.6 budget, that was what the finance director said, but she only then applied those increases, not to the 4.6, to the rollback. So again, across three versions, that's $20,000 right there. that would be money that could go into capital improvements. There is at least $80,000 in these differences between the two that literally make no sense that could go into it. And through every version, they've never been fixed. Do you want me to respond?

Yeah. Okay. As I mentioned, you know, this week we got some really good news that we were able to do a cost savings of almost $100,000 plus we got an extra $25,000 in interest. So we were trying to move some things around in areas where we would like to see more money And so that's why we had moved some things. Also, with the 4.6 budget, we took no salaries out of the parking funds, whereas with the rollback rate, we were able to do so. So that's why you do see some differences. They're not discrepancies. It's because they were just using different funds, but also because of the addition of the other funding that we got literally this week.

um probably a couple days ago we were just you know scrambling to try to get it out so that we can make you know the deadlines okay i mean exactly as i said i remember there there could be some reason for for some of these in the parking you're using money from that and stuff but you you would explain that these are different but this is why um but 165, the difference in the number for those two, there's never been an explanation that made any sense for why the increase in the town attorney and the planner only shows up in the rollback budget, which decreases the amount by $20,000 and consistently doesn't show up in the 4.6 when the discussion that y'all mentioned, the reason why that was bumped up, It came up when it was the 4.6, but the 4.6 was never changed to bump those up. The question is, do you plan to spend and budget $165,000, what the number is, for the town attorney under either budget, or do you only plan to spend more for the town attorney and the planner under the rollback budget, but not the 4.6, and if so, What does the millage rate have to do with what we are going to pay to officials that are under a contract? The contract will not change whether it's the 4.6 or or the rollback that they have a cut there's a contract with the planner and there's a contract with the town attorney. I don't think there's going to be even any more work to whether we have a rollback or 4.6 so why after 3 versions that after being pointed out and that's just one example of several but those are the easiest. Why does it still not change and because that that means there's $20,000 that is misrepresented later.

It's because again we are taking some salaries from the park funds for the rollback rate. And so we had to shave for the 4.6 rate. We couldn't do that. So we had to shave funding off from different departments. We would like to put more money in for the planner and for the attorney. but we had to shave that so that we could pay the salary.

So why is that not explained in writing for posterity? Cause it's very strange how it's very strange that you would spend more for a planner and a town attorney depending on, you know, well, I think part of it's timing and I think part of it is, you know, we have a discussion with all of you in the meetings and we describe it.

And again, it was,

know hearing what um you know your colleagues wanted what you know you i don't when was the vote was there a vote or was it just sherry commissioner corey mentioning that maybe we need maybe we need to put more into the planner and the town attorney mind you when we never had the rollback budget in front of us we only had the 4.6 are you telling me that there was a vote of the commission and not just sherry corey mentioning it that said i think that we need to add to a town attorney and um you know ten thousand dollars or was there no vote and somehow it was just briefly discussed without a vote of the commission and yet it was not put in the 4.6 budget that it was referring to it was only put in the in the rollback Part of her job as... Do you think it was a vote or not?

It was not a vote.

There was no vote. So it was not the commission. It was one commissioner who mentioned maybe we should put more money in those. No, I didn't say that. And that rolled into the...

I did not say that. I did not say that.

But you did say it was the commission.

I said the commission like yourself, you sent over, you know, voluminous edits and things that you thought we should do.

So you pointed out all the deficiencies that do get corrected.

You weren't the only you weren't the only person who sent in comments. And so we took all the comments from the commissioners. But the bottom line is it is the town manager's job assisted by the finance director to put the budget together. We put it together in what we thought we needed to do and where we needed to put funding. And we presented that to you. For the 4.6, there was a concern about money coming out of parking funds. So we had to shave funding from different funds. And so that's why we shaved some from legal, we shaved some from the planner. but we kept the core monies there. We just wanted to have that just in case in the rollback, we added a little bit more because we wanted to make sure that we had a little extra. Unfortunately, we didn't have that luxury with the 4.6 budget because we had to use that money instead towards salaries, funding salaries and basic operations. So that's why there is a difference there.

What about the FEMA money? There's no discussion in the budget message about the FEMA money, who in our most recent audit still says that it is fully believed to be fully collectible. There's no discussion of, and for years that has been requested, and there's no discussion of, oh, by the way, we might have 500 or $600,000 that could mysteriously appear in the budget after we've passed it. But if we knew what the status of that was, which has been asked repeatedly for years, and we get responses of, we're not sure, we'll get back to you. But there's never been a resolution. And I did provide you a detailed tracking memo that goes through. what like if the status of that six hundred and fifty eight thousand or whatever it is uh... that is highly relevant to this budget but if we pass the budget with it without that in the revenue or any part of it that it's misleading to the public because at the four point six it is a tax raise that's i mean legally you have to say that's a tax raise without telling people that you know we very well could get this fema money and then now they'll be a bunch of extra money

and we didn't have to raise your taxes i'm sorry but i remember i'm sorry i don't want to interrupt you but i remember there being discussion about why is that fema money in there when we don't have it it should not be in this budget and that's been brought up multiple times in the two years it's been carried so it's it you're darned if you do you're darned if you don't like i i don't think it should be there if it's not actually green money in somebody's hands and that was the discussion more than once they got criticized for this

As you mentioned, it's been a number of years. I know very recently Commissioner Reed had also followed up because everyone's very frustrated about this, and we got an answer from Mr. Kenline. I don't know, Mr. Reed, if you want to share what they said or anything like that.

I would like to. Could you read it, please? Because I've been asking about this now for the last week. I mean, I spent hours researching it and trying to figure it out, and there's, because the way I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, but what happens is the federal government obligates a certain amount, and so there's an amount that was obligated, and that is still obligated, but they are reimbursements, and so you have projects, the estimates that you submit, And you do the work, and you submit the reports, and you submit the things, and then they repay you. And that money right now, today, it is still obligated. And in every single audit we have had every single year, there is a line in the audit that says that management still believes that the full amount is collectible. Because otherwise, if there's some reason why you think, well, we overestimated, we whatever, you can actually reduce that amount, but it's every year. So let me, let me explain the process.

So FEMA, so FEMA, let me first explain the process. Then this will make more sense.

I'd like to read it.

Yeah, but I'm going to explain the process first. Okay. So FEMA has the money, they obligate the money. It's not dispersed directly to the town. It goes to the Florida Division of Emergency Management. The Florida Division of Emergency Management hires contractors who then are hired to look at our receipts and all the other stuff and painstakingly go through that. And then they get back with FDEM, and then FDEM will then decide, okay, we can go ahead and release the money. They check it off with FEMA. So it's a little bit more.

I know all that, and a lot of cities have had to wait a long time, particularly for Irma, because there was a lot of Irma fraud. So they were kind of being a bit tighter on it. But in the last two years, I mean, since I've been in office, I go to these meetings and people are complaining about Irma, but almost every city that I know now has all gotten their Irma money now. I think we might be one of the only that haven't. And so it didn't

like the hold up explains why it's been nine years but in the last two or three years people have been getting their money so the last two or three years I that's okay as of August 24th 2026 they say good morning and this was to Commissioner Reed to write an update state contractors have finished validation of documentation provided by the town and are meeting with town staff this week to discuss missing items, which would have been this week, but we had budget, so it probably at the earliest will be next week. So they're saying that we still have missing items after sending in floods of information, so we have to talk to them to find out What else it is that we're missing and what else do they need?

So I mean, you could go back two years of meetings and this has been discussed and I don't know. Here's a question. Who's actually responsible? Is there a delegation to anyone that says you're responsible for this or you're responsible for this? The town has an account with a log in to submit. Who has that log?

Yes, our finance manager has a log in.

OK, right. And then, because I know in the past, it's a lot of times it is public works who discusses the FEMA. So, but is he responsible for getting, like, is there, because...

It's the finance manager who has been working with FDEM and FDEM's contractors, all right, and painstakingly, you know, finding the receipts, getting the information, because they ask for things like meeting minutes. They ask for things like votes. So, It's not just a matter of receipts.

There's a lot of other. But we've been having these meetings and we've been being told that, oh, yeah, we're following up with them. But has that been happening? Yes.

And they've been going back and forth.

And I mean, in 2020, there was some response where we submitted paperwork on this Irma, this very specific project, and it was rejected or there was a response back that they needed more information from us. Was there a follow up back in 2020 to that communication?

I cannot answer that question. Irma was handed to me October 3rd, 2025, and I have been working on it since.

Okay. So before October 3rd, 2025, Mr. Davis, were you working on it?

No, it was the former town manager.

The former town manager. Correct. Okay. until october 3rd 2025 it was not that the person that was when she left it was handed over to you okay that's when i began okay and then you've been giving ever since october there's because in that project portal it's every communication irma was the very first hurricane where everything had to go through the portal so from that date forward there's stuff back and forth between you and them okay all right okay do you Is there a sense of, I mean, one of the questions that I've never even known or gotten an answer to is, because you don't get the money if you didn't do the work. Did we do all of the work?

Everything they have asked me up until this new like what they asked before I turned I gathered and turned over to them they went through all of that now they're coming back saying they need some more stuff I don't know I wasn't so we don't even know okay so giving you what I can whatever they ask for you provide correct but no one sitting here today can answer this question did we do the work

As part of the project, you submit the estimate, all of that. This is how much it's going to cost. This is the project. And then you do the work, and then you submit the payment receipts that you paid for that work.

All the stuff they asked for, I submitted. So it's receipts, it's other things.

Nobody can say for sure whether we actually even did the work for the project. I doubt it would get this far if we hadn't.

I'm submitting the work that they're requesting.

I'm not submitting stuff we didn't do. We think that we did do all of the work that would entitle us to the money, so they're And you've been working on it since October.

Point of order, we are off track.

So there is a good chance then that we're going to get the money. There's a point of order.

Point of order, we are so off the subject.

It is related.

Well, it's going on and on, and the government is what's slowing it down, not accusing our staff. Let's move on. Well taken.

I will wrap it up with one sentence. I appreciate it. The $680,000 is highly relevant. It's been going on for a while. It should be included in the budget. It would make a difference, so I will leave it at that. Okay, we have a motion and a second. Is there any other discussion? Is there any public comment? Okay, come on up.

Scott Jones, 309 Fifth Avenue. I just wanted to... say a few words really just in general about the budget. I'm not into the weeds on the budget. I really don't know everything that's going on. The rollback, I'm concerned about having a rollback. Last year's millage rate was 4.6. This year's proposed is 4.6. I think we should go forward with the 4.6 at a minimum, which is no increase other than the 3% cap on the homestead taxable assessment increase. And if you think about it, we're in a high inflationary period. And we're going to get a 3% raise because of the increase in the assessments on homesteaded properties, which Melbourne Beach has a lot of homesteaded properties as a percentage. We also have the lowest millage rate of any municipality in Brevard County that have the services that we have, I believe. And we're also in a zip code with one of the highest average values of properties and wealth and the rest of it. We need to spend some money. You know, I know we get caught in the weeds with our taxes and stuff like that, and we've had 40 or 50 years of just denigrating and destroying our tax base in this country. And where has that got us? Well, with huge deficits and other things. We've never cut taxes and had it. solve any financial problems. So we've got to spend a little money. And we can afford in Melbourne Beach to spend some money. There's a house that just went up for sale listed for $5.5 million. We're a wealthy community. The house over here sold for almost $5 million a few months ago. It's a lot of money. Myself, I have a proposed value of $470,000, a taxable That's my tax assessment, net tax assessment. I'm happy to pay the increase from the difference between the rollback and the 4.6, which for me is about, I think about $95 is what I computed. So it's not much money. But we desperately need it. We have the lowest paid police force, I believe, in the county. Is that right? Yeah. That's going to result in turnover, and turnover is expensive. So let's keep good people. Let's spend some money. It's not that much money for any of us. I think most of us are willing to pay it. I'm very willing to pay a stormwater. I'm going to vote yes on the bond. I'm willing to pay the increase in the millage. I'd even go higher in the millage. And let's live into who we are as residents of a great little paradise here in Florida, in Central Florida. That's my two cents, please vote for the 4.6. I'd like it to be higher at 4.6 at least keeps it even thank you Thank you, sir.

Mr. Jones. Thanks.

Come on up Fifth Avenue is being represented tonight Susan Stark 307 Fifth Avenue I recall a general positive reaction from this commission when town manager A. Marie Smith made her first formal budget presentation based on the current year's millage rate of 4.6000. It provided a balanced budget that did not project needing to take any monies from the reserves for fiscal year 27 due to savings found and some cuts made from the fiscal year 26 budget as a baseline. It was definitely a good start. As a Melbourne Beach taxpayer, and I have this bolded on my paper, I would have been much more comfortable tonight if the commission had been able to publicly work through and review the entire budget prior to this public hearing to set a millage rate. That concerns me. It was Manager Smith's professional judgment to not present a budget for your consideration that was based on an increase or decrease in the millage rate to fund the fiscal year 27 budget. Having challenged myself to attend nearly all the town commission meetings and workshops over this past year, I am confident that Manager Smith made her recommendation for the fiscal year 27 budget and millage rate after carefully reviewing the input from department heads, as well as carefully considering all the input from this commission. Her professional recommendation as town manager was clearly based on many discussions with stakeholders over the past seven months of current needs, projected needs, and anticipated expenses. Each member of the town commission has an important role in making sure that priority needs within the town are funded properly and seek taxpayer input. I am a long time resident and a retired senior citizen on a fixed income. I strongly support the initial recommendation by town manager Smith to adopt the proposed flat rate of 4.6 mills to adequately fund a reasonable fiscal year 27 budget. At that rate, the resulting increase in my tax assessment for municipal services provided by the town of Melbourne Beach reflects an amount that is less than $4 more a month out of my pocket. That included the ERU, even though it wasn't on my tax bill, does not include the bond because it hasn't been voted. Another perspective for more recent homeowners in Melbourne Beach, using a calculation of my home's current market value of approximately $450,000, Instead of my reduced save our homes assessed value, the increase from fiscal year 26 to 27 in my Melbourne Beach Municipal Services tax assessment would only be $9.45 more a month. A small price in my opinion to have stated needed funds, stated needs funded without austere budgeting. When analyzing the details in my initial proposed tax notice, I calculated that nearly two thirds of my annual tax.

Time.

May I please have more?

if the commission would like to but the last time somebody asked for more they said no so i will just remind them yes until she's done reading we'll make a motion make a motion to allow susie stark to finish reading her uh paper for how long until it's done well we need a time

I need probably less than a minute. Okay, a minute. That's good. Second. Okay, we have a motion and a second. All in favor, say aye.

Aye.

Aye. All opposed? Okay, that carries 5-0. Please continue.

Thank you. It gave me time to catch my breath.

Sorry, it's just it happened at the very last meeting and they said no completely.

When analyzing the details in my initial proposed tax notice, I calculated that nearly two-thirds of my annual tax assessment are levied by Brevard County. Less than one-third of my property taxes are levied by the town of Melbourne Beach. If one more point of interest, if my home were located in India Atlantic, my municipal services tax assessment would be more than double what I pay for municipal services in Melbourne Beach. Finally, I am most definitely in favor of adopting a realistic fiscal year 27 budget that is not based on a rollback rate, millage rate. I, along with many residents that I have talked to recently, within the last week particularly, am willing to pay a relatively small increase for quality municipal services that directly, directly impact the quality of my daily life, especially with the soon to be implemented expanded public safety services Provided by the Melbourne Beach volunteer fire department. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you Any other public comment seeing that okay, come on up Bruce Larson 1507 pine street I'll be brief. I just wanted to make a comment that says I This year's fiscal year 27 budget at the 4.6 millage rate and at the rollback rate represents a marked change from what we've seen in the past. So I really want to thank staff personally as a resident for the level of effort that went into this. It's a marked change in the level of detail, transparency, completeness, and accuracy. It's always going to be a work in progress and there's room to improve. but I really wanted to shout out to say, look, this is a different beast than we've seen before. So as a starting point, and there is work to do to make it better, and it's not gonna get done tonight. But I know that the staff and what I heard tonight being discussed as commitments to better managing our public funds is a dramatic step forward. So thank you all.

Thank you. Thank you. Any other public comment? Seeing none, we will close public comment. We have a motion and a second, which I will not restate because there's about six different things, but we talked about it ad nauseum. So all in favor, say aye. Aye.

Aye.

All opposed, say nay.

Nay. Nay.

Okay, so that carries three-two. Does it require a four vote for that? It does. Okay, so that did not pass. Okay, so would somebody like to make a motion for the rollback?

Would you read the vote aloud please?

Oh, do you want to take a roll call? Sorry, I said pass, but it didn't. That's correct. That motion did not pass because it failed for a 3-2 vote. Correct. 3-2 is a majority, but for this tax increase, the non-rollback, the 4.6, requires a 4 vote, and it only received a 3-2 vote with Commissioner Reed and myself, Dennington, voting against it. So that did not pass. So we would need a motion for something else.

Do you still want to roll call?

Yeah.

Could you do a roll call vote on that vote? Okay. Mayor Allison Dennington?

Nay.

Vice Mayor Terry Cronin? Yes. Commissioner Anna Butler?

Yes.

Commissioner Tim Reed? Nay. Commissioner Sherry Corey?

Yes.

Okay, so that failed for lack of the required four to one vote. So if somebody would like to make a motion for the rollback, because that is the only other resolution we have.

I'd like to make a motion to pass the millage rate as a 4.6 as we had discussed earlier and include all the all the special recommendations that commissioner Reid put into it and I'd like to discuss to see if there's anything else we can do to satisfy him so that we can do a 4.6 millage

I know that you stated that in the in the nature of emotion, but I don't believe that would be a proper motion because I don't know how to.

So I would like I would like to redraft this motion at 4.6 with the stipulations already in place with the possibility of adding other stipulations so that we can pass this.

Okay, second. You actually, under the rules, once a motion is taken and passed for a specific thing, you actually cannot vote on it again. Okay, but there's no specifics. You basically said, I want to just pass this resolution, but find out some information. So, Mr. Knight, could you help me here to explain to them what happens when a motion fails under Robert's rules? You actually can't bring it again. Now, you can make a different motion, but there's nothing... Mr. Knight, your motion...

So, the only... So the only way it could be brought again is if somebody that voted nay essentially wanted to reconsider the vote. There can be a second or a new motion with new conditions or conditions removed for a new vote.

Yeah, it has to be different from the prior. It has to be different from the prior. So you'd have to literally make a motion that, okay, since that failed, I make a motion that we pass the 4.6, but that these are the conditions. No, it was more of just, I think it was, we want to find out. So I think instead what you're asking for is before we do a motion, you'd like to... Suspend the rules perhaps and have a discussion.

Can I ask you a question, Madam Mayor?

So, you know, we just spent an hour negotiating, talking about things to pass this 4.6, and we heard a lot of great recommendations, and we thought that this was going forward. And we agreed to them. And we agreed to them and thought that was good, and yet Commissioner Reid voted nay. I think in the spirit of negotiation, if we're willing to spend an hour talking about these issues, you're not going to vote for for the 4.6 what did we just do for the last hour right we could have just gone to the rollback from the get-go if you knew that from the beginning so i'm hopeful commissioner reed that there's something more that you want or something more that you need that could bring you across the finish line so that we yeah what would it take

So what, wait, hold on, because we do have procedural rules and so I, would you please make a motion to suspend the rules? Because we're not, we don't have a motion on the floor. So make a motion that we suspend the rules for now to engage in discussion and see if somebody seconds it.

Okay, so I'll make a motion to suspend the rules to engage in discussion.

Second. Okay, we have a motion and a second to go to informal rules so that we can engage in discussion. We don't go to public comment on that. All in favor, say aye. Aye. All opposed, say nay. Nay. Okay, that carries three-two. Actually, I believe that you need a four-to-one vote to suspend the rules. That is the rule. So that motion dies. Is that correct?

That is the rule. It is the rule. May I just confirm? If I don't believe you, I just want to confirm. Here.

I will have to look it up, and I'm looking it up right now to confirm.

Thank you.

It's a two-third vote, suspend the rules. So for a five-member commission, that's a four-five vote. Same as the rollback. That's correct. Yep.

That's correct, it would take a two-third vote to pass.

So the rules are not suspended. We need a motion on the floor to have discussion.

I move that we pass a resolution in support of the rollback rate for the millage.

uh okay we have a motion if there is a second second okay we have a motion to you i do need you to actually state the resolution name isn't that correct mr knight and page because we got like there's a lot of resolutions in here it's on page 80. yeah so i would just i would just include the rollback rate millage rate okay so we have a motion from the vice mayor to pass the resolution that is located on page 80 which is 20 page 80, the page 80 version, at the rollback rate, and that was seconded by Commissioner Corey. Now we will have discussion. I still have concerns, I mean I'm in favor of the rollback, I still have concerns though about the budget itself Mr. Knight so this is tentative then when we go and do the later one the next hearing that I mean like what gets finally attached like what is the what is the impact of of the budget itself that goes with it that the tent this is just the the millage but the budget doesn't go with it with the final it does correct

so you're voting on the tentative millage rate right now whatever you vote on at the second hearing it cannot be increased no matter what unless you go through the trim process again yeah okay you can always you can always lower it as far as the resolutions go you would still have a budget resolution after the millage vote, and that budget resolution would still include, as in Exhibit A, the budget that you're voting for.

Okay, all right, so that's the next one, okay. Correct? Yeah, but this one we only need three votes for, right, with the rollback, okay.

Correct.

I mean, I imagine we'll have it, but I just, forewarning, I'm gonna be voting against it, because I believe we could go back further with the FEMA money.

that's my discussion i would like to say that the only reason that i have seconded it is because having a rollback is better for the town and the residents than having no budget at all thank you i agree unfortunately a further cut uh okay anybody else sure

I just have a question maybe for the town manager so that the residents of our town understand what this is all about if we were to not pass a budget today if we didn't pass a budget we could not collect anything is that correct.

Well yeah, I mean we could go to a second meeting or something, but you have to notice it and you have to give proper time. So we're really kind of really cutting it close. So but if you don't pass a budget then you're correct.

We wouldn't have you're not that you're not entitled to to enlist the town to pay funds to know Melbourne Beach if you don't pass a budget because the the tax collector will not allow us to collect taxes. So it is our responsibility as commissioners to fund the town and make sure that the programs and everything that we do in this wonderful town are funded. It is our responsibility to make sure that we do that in a responsible way. If I use responsibility and responsible in the same sentence. What we proposed earlier was to keep the millage rate the same. And we had a budget that showed that we would be able to maintain our town at the level that we've become accustomed to. uh... by doing the rollback we know it's going to be an austere budget we know that we're gonna have to tighten our belt and that we may not be able to have all the things that we want it is not DESIRABLE, AT LEAST THREE OF THE COMMISSIONERS, BUT YOU NEED A SUPER MAJORITY TO PASS IT. AGAIN, I POINT OUT THAT WE WENT THROUGH AN HOUR OF DELIBERATIONS TALKING ABOUT RECOMMENDATIONS THAT MEANT NOTHING BECAUSE COMMISSIONER REED DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE 4.6. So you only need three votes to pass the rollback, and it's a disappointing budget. It's very disappointing. You know, I would love to hear a friendly amendment from Commissioner Reid to change this millage rate back to 4.6.

So I think, so we're in everybody's first three minutes. Everybody will get a second one minute if they want, but do remember to start the time because that's, you know, so everyone over here has spoken. Commissioner Reid, do you have anything to say for your We're all on our first three minutes on the pending question.

Everyone was entitled to one vote. I didn't know what the vote was going to be, how the other four votes were going to go until the vote was held.

Okay. Anybody else would like to use their one second statement? Otherwise, I'll call the vote. I just...

I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO POINT THIS OUT, BUT THIS IS THE MANAGER'S RESPONSIBILITY, THE BUDGET, WITH THE FINANCE MANAGER. AND I EXCUSE ME, I'M SPEAKING. I AM VERY DISHEARTENED THAT WE DID AS A COMMISSION DID NOT GIVE RESPECT TO THE POSITION THAT WE HIRED THESE PEOPLE TO THEY HAVE EXPERTISE IN THIS AREA THAT WE DO NOT HAVE. the detail, I really do, Commissioner Reid has done some amazing work on this, but we talked about it, they've worked, we got emails at 10 o'clock at night from these people, from our staff, working on answers, and we spent an hour for answers, What would it take? What was the point? To kind of reiterate what Vice Mayor said. It's just really disheartening. Should have just pulled the trigger and said, forget it, we're not doing it, you're not interested. I don't know why we went through this. It's just really upsetting. And it's disrespectful, in my opinion, to the manager and the finance manager.

um i do just want to create that yeah she it's presenting the budget but it are literally i know my one minute literally the commission's one job if they did nothing else it is to it is to vote on the tax that is gonna be taxed against people's property that they own, and that they are required to pay, and vote on the budget, like how it's gonna be spent, how it will be appropriated. That is literally our one job. We are fiduciaries of the public money, and that is our one job. And Mr. Davis, I do see you laughing over there and smirking, but... No, I do see you looking at the police chief, and it happens a lot, and I just want to say, could you please not? But that is our one job.

Excuse me. I'm done. Point of order. That is totally uncalled for.

It happens, and I'm pointing it out. Please don't do it. You gave me crap one night about this.

Nope.

It happens, and I'm saying please don't do it. It's inappropriate.

I'm asking you, please don't embarrass me. I'm going to call the vote.

All in favor?

I don't think I used my previous. Okay, well then go ahead.

No, you didn't.

And public comment.

There will be public comment, and also we still have Commissioner Corey.

I thought we already did public comment.

No, it's a second, a new motion. It's a new motion. Okay, all right. And then Commissioner Corey has a second.

Go ahead, you have your second.

I would like to point out that it was just stated that the one duty of the commission is to vote for an, for a budget. But the person that has pointed that out is already saying that they're not going to vote for any budget. So I don't understand how that can be quoted as that's our one job and then not do it. Um, I would also excuse me. I would also like to point out that Commissioner Reed you gave us six things that you wanted in the 4.6 budget That's not going to be in the rollback budget Thank you.

Okay. Is there any public comment? Please start the time and then

Susan Stark, 307 Fifth Avenue. I believe I heard the town attorney state to you that you could vote a tentative 4.6 mil budget and at your second hearing you could lower it. But if you adopt the rollback rate, you're stuck on it because you can't increase it. That gives you a couple more weeks to work together, come to some consensus, hear other people's opinions. As I said in my first comment, the entire budget has not been reviewed publicly by this commission, and that's very disappointing to know that that didn't happen before you're voting on a millage rate. The properties in this town, and it's only 2020 census, my house is in the range of only less than 25% of the people in this town, under $500,000. Just over 50%, the value of the homes are between 500,000 and a million dollars. One million plus, that's almost a quarter percent. This town can afford this budget. Indian Atlantic has a budget, a rollback rate, but their budget is 6.1959. We couldn't even catch up to that in a decade with just allowing a 10% increase over time. I know people disagree. It's the same size community. It's the same, relatively the same population. Mayor, I know you're shaking your head and I shouldn't address that, but it is. The population, the number of houses, I've looked it up. It stops, Indian Atlantic stops where Publix is. It doesn't go further north. It is a good comparison study. There are neighbors, and I said if my house was in the Atlantic, I would be paying more than double. This town has beautiful services, wonderful community, and we have the opportunity to allow all the things that you've talked about in the meetings that I've sat in to come to fruition. We're moving in a positive direction to vote for an austere budget at this time when we have no idea what's going to happen to amendment three. That is to me, I don't want to use the word that is to be not using our proper discernment. So, I would ask for you to vote down this motion for the rollback rate as a tentative and give yourself two more weeks. Come to consensus, have another budget, whatever. Do it in public, please, where we can hear your discussions. Thank you.

Thank you. Anyone else? Seeing none, all in favor, we have a motion and a second for the rollback rate resolution, page 80.

Okay, we have a motion.

Is Ms. Stark correct in that we can do the 4.6 with future comment at the next meeting to bring it down? Would you clarify that please without interruptions?

Could you clarify your question?

Do you understand her? Because I don't.

Maybe you could tell me what she's saying.

I think the last sentence you didn't catch.

So she can correct me if I'm wrong, but she's asking if you were to vote to approve the 4.6 millage rate today, would you be able to lower it at the second hearing? And the answer is yes. You can always lower it or keep it the same, but you cannot go up.

Okay. Any other questions? Okay. All in favor, say aye.

So I'll take that.

The friendly amendment?

We take a friendly amendment to change it back to 4.6?

I would accept the friendly amendment.

So would it necessarily be an amendment? It would be a motion for reconsideration. It would require a second and a vote.

We have a motion on the floor. Yeah. And if we vote down this motion, and then we don't get the other motion, we'd be trapped. So we have to take this motion.

Oh, that's true, because then we would not pass anything tonight. Because you can't, it has to be a different motion from what failed earlier.

So it's a friendly amendment.

So this would be the procedure. Since you already voted on the 4.6, there would have to be a motion for reconsideration at some point. You right now have a vote on the floor. If that were to be voted down, you could always come back and have a motion for the 4.3987 millage rate with a new condition or something like that. But this vote would have to be voted down. And then if Commissioner Reed wanted to make a motion for reconsideration. He certainly could.

Yeah, we have a motion on the floor. I'm going to call the vote. If that vote's down, okay, all in favor of the motion pending, I call the question.

One more question for the attorney. Ryan, just to make it perfectly clear for me, because I'm having trouble understanding, are you saying that we cannot adjust the millage rate in this motion?

It would be an amendment to the motion.

So... Cannot adjust it in this motion because it's something that was already voted on.

Okay.

I call the question voted.

Call the question. All in favor say aye.

I'm not. I'm not. No, no, no.

We, we, you guys, I mean, y'all cannot. Okay. I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what.

I withdraw the motion.

Okay. Were you there? Okay. So we, the, the motion is withdrawn. Now we, um, we, we are not an informal debate unless somebody makes the motion. We could adjourn, but somebody would make a motion. Hey, I'll pass the GAVA. I'll make a motion that we set it at 4%. How about that? Because we could put the FEMA money into the budget, and we'll have even more than we would have under the 4.6. And so the taxpayers could have an even lower tax rate.

Were you talking about doing an amendment, Commissioner Reed, or no? No. If he wants to do one or make a motion, he will. I'm just asking. He tried to, but he's been talking so much.

We are not in informal. You want to make an emotion to go to informal?

Go ahead.

Make a motion that we suspend the rules, get four votes, and you can ask questions and go informal.

I'll make a motion. I'll make a motion.

Okay, what's the motion?

I would like to make a motion that we... that we uh accept a resolution adopting uh a tentative a tentative millage rate of 4.7 so you would you would not be able to do that you would not be able to do that because the trim notices

The trim notices already went out at 4.6.

So can I can I say 4.6 again are you saying that's the same motion.

If you want to say 4.6 without the prior without the prior 6 conditions, then you can certainly make that motion.

Thank you Ryan, that's the motion on make that we adopted at 4.6 without the prior conditions.

Okay, so we have a motion from the vice mayor to adopt the 4.6 rate, but without any of the six reasonable conditions that were to be imposed before. And we have a second from Commissioner Butler. Any discussion?

So, trying to play ball here. FOR THIS GO AROUND, IF WE WANT TO SEE THE SIX COMMITMENTS THAT I OUTLINED IN THERE, AND WE CAN FURTHER DISCUSS 4.6.

I'm not.

So are you just putting the six conditions back in, or are you just saying that it's okay? I don't do the same motion. Because it's the same motion. That's the same motion.

Yeah, I was just going to say that that would be the same motion, but if I could have the floor.

Okay, but we, right now, I think that we have to, so what?

I'm trying to get to the words that Ryan was suggesting that for me to use to get it back at 4.6 for consideration again.

Okay, so we could consider it at 4.6 because we have a motion that is different from the last motion for 4.6. The motion now is just to pass it at 4.6 with no conditions whatsoever, which is a different motion from the first one, which had some conditions. So are you amenable to that? There's no conditions whatsoever, it's just 4.6.

Which we could add in at the second meeting.

That is a different motion, so that would be something that we could vote on. So did you, I mean, if there's no other discussion, I can call the vote, but did you?

I would like to make a discussion, and I think Anna was just discussing.

Yeah, okay, please start the three-minute clock, because we've got a motion and a second, so each person has their three minutes.

So for discussion, uninterrupted, please. I would like to assure the commissioner that those six points, I believe, can be reached by not being in the motion because I believe that they're good. And I would I would more than welcome to have those discussions in our agenda items on our agendas going forward. to get those items accomplished, I would be very happy to do that. And that way we can have our motion without those six items in it for the 4.6. Thank you.

And I agree and or could those six items, Ryan, Mr. Knight, sorry, be added in at the second budget vote?

I think those six conditions are for between now and the second budget hearing from what I'm hearing. If you're asking me about the proper procedure, if you wanted to get the six conditions back into a motion, the instant motion should be withdrawn. Commissioner Reed would make a motion for reconsideration on the first motion, which is the 4.6 mills with those six conditions and then have a second and a vote. Got it.

Thank you. And that doesn't violate the you can't vote on the same thing that's been voted down in the same meeting?

The person on the prevailing side can do a motion for reconsideration at the same meeting or a subsequent meeting.

So I guess my the. So first of all, I withdraw.

I withdraw the motion and give the floor to Commissioner Reid.

Thank you.

All right. So the motion has been withdrawn. We are right now with no motion. I'm just going to be looking up the rule for a second. More specific. Go ahead. Somebody wants to make a motion. Go ahead.

So I'm making a motion for a reconsideration of the vote at the 4.6 millage rate with the six conditions applied.

Second. Okay.

I'm gonna take a recess really quick. I wanna just look. No, I believe that the attorney knows. I just wanna look.

Point of order. You can't recess unilaterally. You cannot do that.

Yeah, because I wanna check a vote. You have to have a vote for the recess.

You don't have to have a vote.

If we had a parliamentarian,

You absolutely do have to have. You don't have the right to unilaterally recess or adjourn. We're not adjourned. You don't have the right to recess or adjourn. It has to be a vote, and you can take it as a vote. Mr. Knight, you can check Robert's rules. I've checked it. It's also in the town commission rules. You cannot recess or adjourn a meeting unilaterally. You don't have that power. You don't have that right. You have to get a vote from everybody.

No, you don't.

I vote nay.

So I am looking up a motion to recess would require a second, but I would like to verify that.

It doesn't. Recess is a recess. We're not adjourned. It would require. No, it doesn't. We have an attorney for a reason. There's never been, in any mayor in the history of the town, there's never, when you recess, they recess.

We don't want to repeat history.

It's a parliamentary question that I want to ask, but we don't have one.

There's a pending motion, though.

Yeah, there's a pending motion. No, there's not. There was no pending motion. Yes, there is. No, the motion was withdrawn.

No, there is.

Commissioner Reese.

It's on the floor.

It's on the floor. All right. We're back from recess, but I make a parliamentary question. which is supersedes all motions and is allowed. So my parliamentary question is we have no parliamentarian, but I just want to look up the rule and I'm looking at the index, but I can't do it on reconsideration. So that's the parliamentary question. Um, let me look it up. It might say exactly what y'all say. I just, I would love if you would stop yelling at us.

I trust the attorney's opinion. and also the vice mayor has already looked it up reconsider okay reconsider it's page 700 this is the current one

Reconsider motion to bring back a question from the same session as if it had not been voted on is rule 627 for sex 3737 9c also motions to bring back again reconsider and enter the minutes. Okay, so we let's see what page would that be? 627 6 and 37 627 6 and 37

627.6. Is her time, three minutes, being recorded also?

This is not my time. This is parliamentary inquiry, which does not count as debate. It's a parliamentary inquiry. It's a privileged motion, a privileged issue. So I want you to be sure, so go ahead and look it up. Okay.

I don't want there to be anything that detracts from this. 626.4.

Motion to reconsider. 37 one, Mr. Knight, do you have in front of you? That's the whole chapter. Okay. Okay. To bring back, press reconsidering is to bring back an issue that you've already voted on. Take into account additional information, change the situation that has developed since taking the vote. There's a provision on though. Okay, here we go. 37.8, 37.7, all right. There's something that says that you can't vote on the same thing, but the motion to reconsider, it says that we can. It will cancel the old vote. Motion to reconsider. That's what the motion is. Do we have a second?

Commissioner Butler seconded it.

Commissioner Butler seconded it. Is this something that we take public comment on or can we just vote on that one? Because then there's another motion afterwards. The motion to reconsider is just to be able to bring the vote back. Then there has to be another vote actually where the motion itself is brought.

With an abundance of caution, I would give public comment.

Okay, so we have a motion to reconsider, which will allow the same motion or whatever to be brought back up. Okay, public comment. And then after that, the same motion then is brought up and we vote again so you all know.

Thank you. Susan Stark, 307 Fifth Avenue. Commissioner Reid, I want to thank you for bringing this back to the floor. I really appreciate how carefully you have scrutinized the budget, and I trust your opinion. I have a tax notice in front of me that gives me two options. It gives me the rollback rate, and it gives me a rate of 4.8386. 4.6 is not even mentioned. picked one in between, built a budget on it, and it was reasonable. I think there's still some issues because you haven't discussed the budget entirely in public. This, as Commissioner Reid seems willing to do with his motion, is give more time, maybe schedule another budget workshop, work it out, hash it out, with the things that he's brought forward, which I think many are wise, because it's important that we not have an austere budget. In my mind, I'm in the lower 25% of the residents as far as value of my house, so I'm on a fixed income. I support raising it. It's $9.45. And that doesn't take the bond. It takes the stormwater ERU. Please, please, please give yourself more time to reconsider by picking either 4.6 or the one that was listed, 4.836. And then go down at your second meeting after you've had time to really work it out because you haven't done that yet. It's all been everybody giving the manager their suggestions and not done in public. I think that the budget should have gone through first before you had a millage rate discussion. I don't understand why they don't go in that order. So I have another minute, but I'm not going to take it. But I hope that... you can see that and could you just for clarification is that right the 4.83 the 4.8386 is what was noticed so you could vote on that tonight attorney could you ask i think he said that there we we couldn't do anything over 4.6 i believe that was that's what's posted on my tax bill i have it right here in front of me It is. It's noticed at 4.8386. There's no notice on my tax bill. It says the same, the rollback or 4.8386.

But the 48 hours before this meeting, I mean, there's been a bunch of things posted less than 48 hours, but they did not post. They only correct Mr. Knight. So which one? yeah 4.6 would be the cap for this so that's why is it because the florida stat the florida statutes do require budgets to be posted uh two days in advance of the first hearing thank you for that clarification mr knight thank you and the consequence i did read of doing any of that wrong even whatever we passed if there's something we did really wrong is that they could hold back all of our half cent and various things so um just for the uh who made the original motion

So commissioner Reed made the motion to reconsider. Okay. And commissioner Butler seconded it.

Okay, so that is one of the rules. So y'all going forward, the only person that actually can make that motion to reconsider is the prevailing side. I don't know on this one. I don't think it's the prevailing side because that motion failed, but he voted against it. So I don't exactly understand who's the prevailing. He prevailed. Well, no, not really. It was a 3-2, but the thing died.

In order to pass the motion, it required four votes.

yeah so if you voted nay for that you were on the prevailing side because you did not it took four votes to pass i think it's confusion but anyway uh okay so is there no other public comment all right the first we have the motion to reconsider all in favor say aye aye aye all opposed say nay nay okay so that carries 4-1 so now we can reconsider the motion if somebody wants to make a motion

So it's already on the floor.

No, no, no, no. The motion to reconsider is what allows the same thing to be brought up again. It's not the motion itself. Now, procedurally, it's allowed to be brought back.

So I'm just quoting off the internet that the original motion returns the exact status it had immediately before the vote was taken. It can then be debated, amended, referred, or voted on again as if the original vote had never occurred.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. But the motion to reconsider is just passed, but doesn't operate to pass the resolution. So somebody has to make a motion now. It's exactly what I said.

And I'm reading it. So we go back to the original motion. It's the only difference I'm seeing.

But somebody has to make that motion again.

It was you, Vice Mayor.

You made that motion. That's all I'm asking. I did the one with the very original motion.

We are able to entertain that motion now.

Yeah, exactly.

I made the very first one with no caveats. If that's what we're referencing, then that would be.

Yes, you did. It doesn't have to be the same people that made it. It's basically, anybody can make the same.

Yes, Commissioner Butler first made a motion just to adopt the 4.6 millage rate. Commissioner Corey seconded that. And friendly amendments were made.

And it's still your motion. Right. So.

So does it lie or do I have to, does someone?

I don't have a motion on the floor yet. I'm just waiting for a motion. Go ahead and make the motion.

I make a motion that we adopt the 4.6 millage rate for the fiscal year 2027 budget.

You have to add the caveats.

No.

Yeah, because we're going back. It's a reconsider. We're reconsidering.

Okay, all those comments. With the following, reserve... For reserve fund policy, commitment for that. Commitment to mid-year budget review. Commitment to special fund management policy. Commitment to full road and stormwater cost. Rejection. Rejection, thank you. Sorry, I'm scribbling really quick. the pie charts, two pie charts that were to be included and add the bond debt to our debt.

Second.

Okay. Mr. Knight, is it, I mean, you can have a motion that is that long with that many things. That's fine. It's not something that you separate out.

You didn't say anything.

I know, I know. It's just, it's confusing. Will, when these minutes get done, because normally the chair is supposed to restate the motion. I can't restate all that. Will they make that part verbatim? Whatever Anna just said verbatim. Because that's the motion. Can I, can we get, the clerk will make the motion itself verbatim.

Are you asking me to restate it verbatim?

No, no, no. I'm saying when you do the minutes. I know we don't do verbatim minutes, but all of our motions are verbatim. The motion itself, you will make it verbatim.

Our motions are verbatim.

Okay. All right. So we have a motion that is very long with six conditions for the 4.6 that will be verbatim described in the minutes later, and we have a second. The motion was made by Commissioner Butler, seconded by the Vice Mayor. Any discussion? Seeing none, any public comment? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed, nay. Okay, that carries 4-1. Could we do a roll call vote?

All right, Mayor Allison Dennington.

Nay.

Vice Mayor Terry Cronin. Yes. Commissioner Anna Butler. Yes. Commissioner Tim Reed. Yay. Commissioner Sherry Corey.

Yes.

Okay, and I have under 250 words. okay all right motion to adjourn uh hold on hold on we have two items on the uh oh that's right we have two items so i love let's adjourn we have a motion to adjourn is there a second okay sorry uh commissioner corey that fails for lack of a second um My microphone was off. You will put the minutes. It's the page two, page three. I know, but my microphone went off. Okay, we have the next item, which is strange because this is one special meeting with two items, but I will turn that over to the manager.

Okay.

Second vote that you have tonight is to vote on passage of the budget at the 4.6 mill rate.

Okay, any presentation, discussions?

I'd be happy to answer any questions if you have any. As I mentioned, this is the budget that none of the salaries are taken out of the park funds, either park funds, excuse me, and it also reduces the wage increase for employees to 3.75, not 4.25.

On the 4.6 or? On the 4.6, yes.

Madam Mayor.

So question, if you tax people more, there's no problem with doing a 3.7 salary raise, but if you tax people less, you wanna do a 4.25%? Could you explain that to me, because I never did understand. So it could always be a 3.75, But if we tax people less, we were gonna do a higher raise?

No, what, again, your colleagues felt that you all were not able to get through the budget and get through the questions and comments, so they'd come to me individually.

And what I was saying is that- So you've got a consensus of people individually?

No, no, no, no, let me please finish, ma'am. All right, so what I did is I presented a budget where We presented it at the three point seven five percent raise because that was a that was something that One of the you know, the commissioners wanted to see what that would look like and so I didn't do it on both of them You only did it you didn't do it on the on the rollback right now the rollback rate budget stayed.

Why?

It's why why wouldn't that change be made it's because the rollback rate budget you could utilize funds from the parking fund, but in the why we're going to 6, 1, 2, but good.

Yeah, that's a question but it is evading the question there's no answer because why why would a raise matter. and you would give less raise under a higher tax millage than you would, you'd give a high...

It's because it's the request of the commission.

And if there is a rational reason for it. No, the commission, you've been talking to people and taking emails from certain people to try to get votes, one in particular, and that i think what it was in order to get commissioner reed to vote for the 4.6 i suspect that he said it has to be a 3.75 so you changed it on the 4.6 didn't change it on the other one but the fact that didn't get changed on the other one affects the actual bottom line number under the other one and misrepresents it to the public it was not requested it was not requested to be changed on the a rollback rate by any of it was me i did i said can you make them the same if it's 4.25 as the manager if you're saying that if as the manager if you say i think it should be 4.25 that's what i put in there y'all can reject it but i put it in there but what you did was you said i think it should be either 3.75 or 4.25 in two different things now that's not the manager deciding that's the manager giving two different options that make no sense and aren't explained

if there's a rational reason why those should be different for it for any of these things that don't have any real rational reason it's fine but that's the type of stuff you put in the budget message it's because of the funding sources that came from and it's because of what the commissioners had requested so i did as they requested i did what you all requested all right i presented the budgets and we prepared the budgets as what you requested if there are despair if there are some disparities privately No, no. If there are disparities between the budgets, I'm happy to talk about them, but this is based on comments and information that you all have provided to me.

Like the email that went around that's not public, but that was basically saying these are the things that a certain commissioner has requested for the 4.6 budget. And to which I responded, this is inappropriate because you're basically having consensus and telling the other commissioners what it will take to get a fourth vote. that was not public that was private no i asked them if they were willing to accept certain conditions i know but you're saying you keep saying the commission the commission decides things in the public and votes you can have discussions with people but if you're getting consensus which is what is happening because i said make them the same it doesn't make sense but you didn't change it so that's that is my objection i mean that and it's you know, important one. I mean, we're supposed to decide things in public, have discussions and stuff, but basically, you talk to people, and you made changes outside of the public based on certain conversations, and I have been saying over and over, why does the salary differ in one or the other? If you're deciding that, as the manager, you say, The employees, I have decided, I think they should get a 4.25, which is what you always started with, then that should be it. We could publicly vote it down, but you came back with 4.25. Even you haven't decided what the appropriate one is. But the rollback budget is padded with extras that make no sense and that don't exist in the 4.6. And the reason why is because it decreases the bottom line that allows you and other people to say that there's no money for capital improvements under the rollback budget. But it is false because the packet, the entire process, but the numbers are not accurate and don't match. That's, I've said it, said my piece.

Madam Mayor?

Yep, go ahead.

So I'd like to make a motion to accept the resolution adopting the tentative budget for fiscal year 2027 on page 158.

Second.

Okay, we have a motion and a second. Is there discussion?

My objection. We heard.

It also applies to this vote as well. So two statements to go with it.

OK, so I want to know if we can adjust this in the next two weeks, if there's things that we find concerning at the next presentation. Can we adjust this budget if there's savings or other things that we spot? Mr. Knight?

Yes. So right now you're adopting a tentative budget at 4.6. You can always lower that. And if you find cuts or cost savings that you would like to do, you can amend it and adopt it at the next hearing.

Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

I've been asking for a couple of different things for a few weeks. I was told today that I would get two of those, the updated capital improvements uh capital projects um and also capital assets uh document which the finance manager has as well as the capital items inventory which is anything over 500 uh and the finance manager said she wouldn't be able to get it to me but she would get it to me next week is that correct

Yes, that's what I told you.

Is there a day, Monday, Tuesday?

No, Monday's a holiday. We won't be working. Tuesday? I'll be getting in Tuesday and let me see what's on my plate, but you will have it next week. I don't have a day, a specific day. So it could be next week, but Friday? You will have it next week.

Okay, definitely have it next week. Okay, all right. And will we have any update on the FEMA or the records request that I made for the documents on FEMA? Point of order, I think. He's discussing. He wants to know if there's any. For me, I have no discussion to make until I get the records.

Because I have no control over FEMA. We've talked about that. No, no, no.

I put a public records request in today after being in discussion about FEMA.

Next week, we are going to see when we can meet with FEMA. It also depends on their schedules to find out. where and what we need. We have no idea until we know what exactly they're going to ask for to even get any kind of an estimate of when they may even consider finishing this request.

And that's great. But what I've asked for is every document that that is every document in there is a public record and every one of his electronic. All it requires is the town account holder, which is finance to basically log in, just drag all of those over. as a public records and I made a public records request but ask you a mayor because to me I will look through that vast set of documents to try to figure it out because that's relevant for me on the budget of what we have so those I just want to know can I am I going to get those three can I get those three things next week because we're going to then have a budget discussion I have not seen that public records request yet Ryan has it Mr. Knight does well I haven't seen that We're drifting away, ma'am, from the subject. Once again, no. Yep. The subject is discussion of the budget.

So call the question, please.

So you have to have public comment.

Public comment. Public comment on the budget.

You're getting your exercise walking back and forth. Y'all know who I am. Susan Stark, 307 Fifth Avenue. You just approved a millage rate of 4.6 with the caveats of the things that Commissioner Reed brought forward. So I would think your vote for the budget should be mirrored with that and have it in it that it's with those things that Commissioner Reed brought forward And may I suggest that you have a public workshop so the public can see, a budget workshop so the public can see you go through the entire budget, which I haven't seen the commission discuss the entire budget. I've been to every meeting. I think it's important before you adopt from tentative to permanent that you do it in public with the things that have been brought everybody gave their input privately it needs to be done in public so i would suggest you try to schedule a budget workshop between now and the regular august commission meeting thank you thank you any other public comment uh

Seeing none, we will close public comment. This is an extra. Anna Butler does not care to read it. And Commissioner Corey doesn't want to read it either. So you have extras. Interesting. We have an audit 18 months from now.

All in favor say aye. Aye. Is that on the record?

What, your comments that you're under your breath? Is your comments right now? Oh, I called the question up.

All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye.

All opposed say nay. Nay.

Nay.

Okay. That does not carry because the budget, does that have to have a four vote, Mr. Knight? Okay. So that motion failed.

Hold on.

Yep. That failed 3-2. Roll call.

All right. Mayor Allison Dennington.

No.

Vice Mayor Terry Cronin. Yes.

Yes.

Commissioner Anna Butler, yes.

Commissioner Sam Reed.

May. Commissioner Sherry Corey. Yes. I apologize, my microphone was not on.

I have to use the little girl's room. I'm going to take a short recess, restroom break. Come back in two minutes. You can't do that. Yes, you can. You cannot. Check your rules. Check your rules. Watch 10 years of meetings.

Somebody help me. I can't. Are we in recess?

Yes.

We can each hear. Yeah. all right less than a minute restroom break over uh could the town clerk call the roll please sorry mayor allison dennington here vice mayor terry cronin here commissioner anna butler here commissioner tim reed here commissioner sherry corey here town manager amy smith here finance manager jennifer kerr here Police Chief Tim Zander. Here. Public Works Director Tom Davis. Here. Building Official Jeff Parsons. Here. Town Attorney Ryan Knight is joining us via Teams, and Town Clerk Sid Jones is also present.

Okay. That motion failed, so if anyone else would like to entertain a motion or adjourn, or make a motion to suspend the rules and have informal discussion, which requires four votes.

I'd like to make a motion that we set a workshop for the budget.

Okay, we have a motion from Commissioner Reed to set a workshop for the budget. Is there a second?

Hold on, Mayor, I need a little recess to research whether the budget requires

Okay. Thank you. Okay, we'll take a recess then. Y'all are okay with that recess? Because the town attorney needs to do a little research. So you'll just indicate to me when you're ready. We'll recess, but I'll stay here because I just took my bathroom break that I needed. Okay, we're going to take a short break. should be should be five minutes ten minutes at the most but I want to make sure yeah what those are required for the budget since it is different that's good just the former attorney sometimes would do that and take a 10 minute recess to look up an issue so we are recessed for probably five to ten minutes the town attorney needs to look up a little research issue so we're not just sitting here so we will reconvene in a little while we are recessed 8 10 for 5 10 minutes right uh i got the thumbs up from mr knight that he researched oh okay hold on waiting for the town clerk now the thumbs up for mr knight so he's done his research okay good okay uh if the town clerk mr jones could you call roll please mayor allison dennington here vice mayor terry cronin president commissioner anna butler here commissioner tim reed here commissioner sherry corey here town manager amory smith here

Finance Manager Jennifer Kerr.

Here.

Police Chief Tim Zander. Here. Public Works Director Tom Davis. Here. Building Official Jeff Parsons. Here. Town Attorney Ryan Knight is joining us via Teams. Town Clerk Sid Jones is also present.

Okay, Mr. Knight, you had to do a little legal research. You came back. What's the... What is...

So, based on my research, the two-thirds vote would apply to the millage

Okay. I am not sure about that, but I would love for us, I would love for us to go with that and it'd be wrong. And then we don't have the budget. We won't, but, uh, so we're going to go with, uh, the town attorney says that we, but what's the, what is the provision?

Great.

That's a 200.065. There's a subsection 2C provides prior to the conclusion of the hearing, the governing body of the taxing authority shall amend the tentative budget as it sees fit, adopt the amended tentative budget, and it goes forward with that. But there is no two-thirds requirement for the adoption of the tentative budget.

Okay, question though. You know the bill that was passed in 2026, the one that talks about certain effective dates being January 1st, 2027. There is a statute though that passed that says that it's retroactive and it has to do with the voting number.

There's nothing that I can see that would indicate the actual budget would require a two-thirds vote.

Okay. Thank you. All right. So then did we already vote on that?

Yes, we did. Yes. Okay. So it passed three to two.

Okay. So the town attorney says that we do not need four fifths vote to pass a budget tentative budget at the 4.6, which is above the rollback rate. So that three, two vote that we had then passed. Correct?

That's correct.

Okay, just real quick. If for whatever reason that was wrong and we came back two weeks from now, what might be the impact?

The impact would be we would have to probably have another budget hearing on it to see if we could get the four to one vote needed for the budget. But like I mentioned before, there's nothing that I could find in the statute that specifically would require the two-thirds vote for the budget.

Okay. Could I make a comment?

So just from my research using AI, it says our town charter actually allows three affirmative votes for the passing of a budget. So it's in our town code. It's worth checking. State law preempts, buddy.

Yeah. Okay. I mean.

So do we need to now do resolution? 20-26-07?

So it's passed. So we should adjourn this meeting. We go on to the next because our building official has been waiting.

Okay. So I've got my notes on the wrong sheet.

And just so you're all aware, there was another motion on the floor. It does not have a second. Commissioner Reed made a motion to set a workshop for the budget. So is there a second on that?

I mean, yeah, I'm super, I don't know. I actually think there's legislation requiring for that one, too, to be four votes, but the town attorney looked for a minute and doesn't think there is.

What does that have to do with that?

No, I mean, I'm just, I'm a little, I am a little worried, I'm not gonna lie, but we think that it passed at 3-2, and I say we adjourn. We say that we, I mean...

Motion to adjourn?

Second.

We have a motion to adjourn and a second. All in favor say aye. Aye.

All opposed?

Nay.

Okay, that carries 4-1. We are adjourned and we will start the next special meeting with our building official. So thank you.

I didn't get any material.

All right, let's go right into it.

I have an item to pass out. One moment, please.

All right, it's 821. We are starting our second meeting, special meeting, and this is the building official that's going to present. I actually don't, I don't have a packet for this. Nobody does. I have no packet.

It's being passed out now.

So I'll just read from my old one that has, that has, we need to do, while she's passing out the packets, when you get done with that, you do a roll call and we'll do the.

Thank you.

so this will go on the website though for a packet Okay. I'm sorry. Roll call.

Roll call, please. Mayor Allison Bennington.

Here.

Vice Mayor Terry Cronin. Here. Commissioner Anna Butler.

Here.

Commissioner Tim Reed. Here. Commissioner Sherry Corey. Here. Town Manager Amory Smith.

Here.

Building Official Jeff Parsons. Here. Building Assistant Steve Freeman. Here. Town Attorney Ryan Knight is with us on teams, and Town Clerk Sid Jones is also present.

Okay. We will say the Pledge of Allegiance. Welcome to silence.

Civility.

and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

OK. Moment of silence. all right uh the i will read the civility pledge the commission and the staff of the town of melbourne beach pledge to conduct all public discourse in a civil manner the mayor and all members of the commission will treat one another with courtesy and respect and ask the public to do the same towards the commission towards each other towards staff will be respectful of one another even we disagree we will direct all comments toward the issues we will avoid personal attacks we will open it up to public comment general public comment for anything on the agenda Seeing none, public comment is closed. We will have, there is not a packet online, but we do have one that is here. The town clerk will put this packet online as soon as possible since we don't, this is the only thing. I will turn it over, the one item on our, Agenda is Will be presented by our building official and I will turn it over to you sir Thank you very much and apologize had to wait But may I real quick to say I hope that we do a better job with disability code in this meeting We can all do a better job on that.

Oh, we're just getting started So can they see him if he's there I

Can they see him if he's there? No, he would have to stand at the podium. You don't have to, but just because this is, yeah. I do think sometimes the public likes to see him since it's your item. Sorry. When we take questions, you can go back or whatever, but just that way they get to see you present.

So I'll first say that this fee schedule change is not something that I... wanted to see. However, due to House Bill 803 and House Bill 399, there were changes made to the way that we are allowed to charge for building permit fees. There are several different ways people are doing it. This is the one that I recommend. um this particular format the numbers that we came up with i worked closely with the building assistant with steve freeman to try to get it to as close to um accurate as possible and and this is where we stand so i want to be really clear as you look through this schedule there are four parts So every building permit that is issued will have four separate fees that'll be totaled together in order to get the proper fee. The first one's the application fee. The application fee, hold on, let me go back to my notes here. The application fee provides for the time and resources from the town For the intake portion of the permitting and the sufficiency review, which is completed by Steve Freeman or whoever the permit clerk is that essentially is what the application fee is designed to cover I'm going to skip the permit type fee for a second and go down to the inspection fee at the bottom the inspection fee is is specifically based on what it costs to do the inspection. Now, if we have multiple inspections during the day, obviously that's going to make it less, but we have to kind of build this fee schedule based on what we think may be coming in the future. And we may be limited on our inspections, and I will get to that in a moment, but that fee is based on... a limited number of inspections on the days that we do inspections. And the fee is based at $100 for an inspection, and we came up with that number as roughly an hour to do an inspection. By the time you get the inspection request to the inspector, he goes out, performs the inspection, and then comes back to the office and results in the computer, whatever the results are for that inspection. Commercial inspections are a little higher because a lot of times we have to use a remote or visual inspector from somebody who is qualified in order to do those inspections. Okay, so the next fee, so that one's pretty self-explanatory. The next fee is the review fee. Now, according to Florida statute 553791, In the portion where it speaks of private providers, we are required to give a 25% discount if a private provider is doing the inspections only. We are required to give a 50% discount and an additional 25% if they are doing inspections and plan review. In discussions with Mr. Knight, we both agree that what the state has done has put a equal value on inspections as it does plan review that being said because our plan review is done remotely we are able to bring that down and we we determined that 50 of the inspection fee should be what the review fee should be um okay so that's that portion of it the last one i'll go back up to the permit type fee And that's what the big long list is, is that that encompasses all your permit type fees. And what those specifically, those numbers came out of permits that have been issued and the amount of work that it takes in order to facilitate those permits. And including all of the soft costs. So the cost of the building official, the cost of the software, computers, extra phone time and emails for Steve and myself, the office, the office supplies. And if you notice that the residential building and the commercial building is a bit higher, and that's because it does require by town ordinance to have a pre-construction meeting. OK, so now to get into a little bit more as to why the fees seem so high, because I'm sure that's going to be a question. So House Bill 803 and House Bill 399, between the two, require that the fees have to be proportionate to the work being done. Well, traditionally, we have used a valuation-based fee system, fee schedule. So essentially, if you have a $300,000 home that's being built, we don't include the price of the property, so we have $300,000 build, the permit fee would be significantly less than that of a $3 million home. Well, that is, we're no longer allowed to base our permit fees that way. And because those larger homes bore the lion's share of the cost that that was where the majority of the funding came for the building department. We don't have that anymore. We're no longer able to do that. So these smaller permits are going to have to bear that all on their own, which is why those permits are going to go up significantly. And that's not an issue we're just having here. That's an issue everywhere. A couple other things I want to just quickly mention before we get to any questions. There are some alternatives that we can look at, one of which is kind of a pay as you go. The issue that I have with the pay as you go is, well, if you have some work done, and you don't call for a final inspection, which unfortunately is extremely common, it is nearly impossible to get that contractor to call in for the final inspection. So we end up with permits that end up getting administratively closed because we just can't get out to do the inspection. I can imagine how hard it would be to get an invoice from somebody who is unwilling to get an inspection done. So as far as pay as you go, I have a really hard time with accepting that type of fee schedule. And the other one would be to just flatten it out across the board. Unfortunately, that would be very impactful to the smaller permits. So for example, we have a fence fee, I believe it's $75. and that would be closer to about $250 as a permit fee. So I don't recommend that. And like I said, I know this is going to probably have a lot of questions from you all, but this is the schedule that I recommend. And there we go. Oh, sorry, I got one more thing I wanted to address. Figuring out this fee schedule, we had to base it on factors that we don't know the answers to yet. Those four major factors are, one of them is the private provider, regulations that have been changed in Florida Statute 553.791, which significantly provide protections for the private providers. In other words, we can't do anything at a town level. We receive paperwork from a private provider. They pretty much get carte blanche. We have to accept it. We can't verify licenses. We can't verify insurance, any of that. The only thing that the local building department can do is sufficiency. So what I see because of that regulation is we're going to see a lot of contractors going to private provider. The less inspections we have, the more the more important it is to have these fees based on where they are. The next one is the Florida building code changes. We are going through a building code change effective December 31st of this year, where we have adopted the 2026 Florida building code. I have dove into it a little bit. The changes are fairly significant. So we're probably gonna see some impacts on building just based on the code being more stringent.

Is it effective December 31st or is it effective January 1st, 2027?

I don't know why they did that, but they did choose December 31st of this year.

Usually they do it January 1st of the next year, which is confusing because it's... Okay, so it is effective December. All right, cool.

It is, but we're all off that day anyway, so. Yeah, I know. So effectively, it'll be the first.

It'll be nice because it'll be the 2026 building code that became effective in the last day of 26.

Exactly. Exactly. So the last one is a very heated topic at the moment, and that's Amendment three. So if Amendment three passes, the ability for the building department to be able to pull from general funds is going to be significantly impacted, as I'm sure you would all agree. Taking that into consideration, I would rather err a little bit on the higher side and then have to come back to you and ask you to lower it than the other way around. I don't think that that's going to happen, but That is certainly a consideration. And then the last and final impact, of course, is going to be the economy. And we have no idea what the economy is going to be. I believe it's going to stay strong. I hope it's going to stay strong. But we simply just don't know. So we have a lot of factors to consider when we're trying to figure out these fee schedules. And this is kind of a balance with all of that. And that's how we came up with the numbers that we came up with.

examples of that?

Yeah, certainly. So my understanding in regards to the building cone changes, a lot of those are going to be ones that we don't see at our level. They are going to be with the manufacturers receiving or trying to receive or they're least through their application process for their Florida product approvals so from what I understand I like said I have not dove into this completely but from what I understand take windows for example the wind pressures the design pressures are going to be increased which are going to increase the prices of windows we're going to see a likely increase in what's required for nailing and for other materials that are used on the outside of a home There are changes to the electrical code, there are changes to plumbing code, there are changes to the mechanical code, and there are changes to the efficiency code, as well as there's changes to the accessibility code. So all of those changes, unfortunately, end up relating in additional costs, and what those impacts are gonna be, unfortunately, at this point, we don't know.

Hopefully the end goal is that our insurance rates in the state of Florida will become solvent and come down. That's the whole point of the building code.

That would be a wonderful end result of an increased building code, absolutely. I agree.

If I may, a couple questions. Would you repeat that part about the money not being able to come out of the general fund, or did I mishear that?

So if Amendment 3 passes... then the general fund is going to be affected significantly due to the reduction of ad valorem. And if a building department falls short of funds now, they pull from the general fund. And of course we come and ask you for that.

Yeah, I thought you were alluding that it was no longer gonna be a viable request. So okay, that answers that. Is there any building code changes as far as flood elevation?

That would be a FEMA change and I am not aware of any at this point.

Okay. And then on the re-inspections, you have a re-inspection 125 and 100. How many are those? Is it per re-inspection or is it you get X amount of re-inspections for $100?

So if you fail an inspection and we have to go out and do another inspection, our resources and time are the same.

So it's per.

So it's correct it's per and so for larger projects that let's say may have and this is more indicative to commercial projects but there may be a portion of let's say the first floor where they do the electrical and then they'll have the electrical done on the second floor at a later date so that's what I mean by additional or partial inspections.

thank you I have question and they're more also maybe some comments or suggestions this will have to come back to us in an actual resolution because we passed these schedules by the resolution okay which this is not in but we could at least you know give you the idea that we're okay with or whatever but what I would suggest is Well, let me do my question first. And thank you for this, too, by the way. And I agree that you need to err on the side of caution. And I read your options, alternatives, and I made giant X marks across because that number two alternative, yeah, that's scary. uh so my understanding though this is you guys essentially reviewed like all these different types of things that you do to sort of get an idea of well this is for this it takes us about this long for this it takes us about this long or right so that like the inspection one you get like that's the price reflects about an hour of work, correct? Correct. Okay. So, and that's good because the bill says that there has to be a correlation and sort of match up between like the actual time that you're doing, right?

Exactly.