Planning and Zoning Meeting - Regular Meeting

Jennifer's probably trying to find a place to [Music] when she died. [Laughter] Unfortunately, we don't have like 12 Bible. I know, right? I was happy to see because I figured a lot of people would show up. I was happy to see it was the only thing on the I was like, "Okay." Yeah, I know.

So, who is your home go to? Huh? Oh, really? You rent it, sell it? I don't know. What's your question? I mean, it says changes and or deletions to the agenda. So, I would think during that period, you could say, "Yeah, I'd like to move number C up to number."

We've all seen it happen too. And it stinks and us because then you get you're called brainwashed and you're like, "Okay, I'm done." like and then you don't pay attention to the second or the last.

Well, it's 7:00. Oh, here she comes. Okay. Oh, we didn't have one. Oh, wait. I said she's That would be a hard message. [Music] You got to go home. We're waiting on him. Oh, no problem. We figured a place to park. My daughter had to go babysit. Arie, sit down. Arie,

okay. You ready, Lord? You ready? Ready? Everybody ready over there? Okay. Good evening. Welcome to the October 15, 2025 St. Charles County Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. At this time, I request that everyone please turn off or mute all electronic devices, including cell phones. Also, at this time, I would ask each of you to please stand with me for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you. Concerning the applications on tonight's meeting agenda, public com uh following public comment, the planning and zoning commission will vote to recommend that the county council approve, deny, or amend the applications. The applications will then be scheduled to be introduced at the Monday, November 10th, 2025 county council meeting. That is the Monday, November 10th, 2025 county council meeting. Uh public comment made tonight shall be limited to three minutes per speaker for the sake of time. Uh we ask the public not to repeat previous testimony. If you're planning to speak, please fill out a speaker card. Ah, come here. One of these cards over here that Miss Hayes has uh and return that uh to Miss Miss Hayes. This ensures that we get your name uh and address uh information correct in our minutes. Uh the following documents are introduced as a matter of record for this evening's public hearing and regular meeting of the St. Charles County Planning and Zoning Commission. Those documents are the unified development ordinance of St. Charles County, including the zoning map, the year 2030 master plan for St. Charles County, which includes the year 2030 future land use plan map, and the rules of order and procedure for the planning and zoning commission is adopted by resolution 21-01. I see we have a quorum. Is there a motion to open the meeting?

Is there a second? Second. Motion and made and second to open the meeting. All in favor say I. I.

I. Meeting is open. Okay. Uh before we get started, I'll give you a little brief uh rundown of how we conduct the meeting. Uh I'll read into the record the uh applications. And tonight we have two applications, but we're going to hear those together since they're interrelated. Uh and we will ask at that point in time the staff uh to give their report uh and during their report members of the of the commission may have questions uh for the staff. Uh once the staff has completed their report we'll then ask the applicant to come forward and uh present the application what they are asking the commission and ultimately the county council to to approve. uh members of the commission may have questions for the applicant. Uh once uh the applicant has finished their presentation then we will open the public hearing. Uh at that time anyone wishing to speak regarding either one in this case either one of the applications can come forward. Uh as I did say our rules of order and procedure uh are in effect uh for this meeting. Um, so if you do come forward, uh, I will have to swear you in, uh, give you an oath to swear or affirm that you're telling the truth. Uh, we will limit, uh, each speaker to three minutes. Okay? And like I said in the opening comments, uh, once someone has talked about a particular subject, um, we I know somebody's going to mention traffic. Okay, we know that. Okay. But after two or three times, the fourth and fifth time of of uh talking about traffic, uh gets a little redundant. Okay. So, uh once you've spoken about a topic, uh we've made note of that. So, unless you're going to bring up

something new or different and a different concern, you're more than happy to speak uh during the uh public hearing. Uh before I I had one of the people there and that's here this evening ask if they could ask questions. Uh and the answer to that is no. Um then uh the commission is here to hear the information information and make a decision. Uh and so um you may ask a question but if none of us respond don't take it personally because we don't don't answer questions. Um we may ask you a question. uh we may ask the applicant a question. Uh but once everyone has had the opport who wants to speak has had the opportunity then we will close the public hearing. Uh according to our rules once the public hearing is closed um we will not we will not take further comments from the public uh unless uh a majority of the commission um decides that um we want to ask allow someone to come back even though the public hearing has been closed. Once the public hearing has been closed, we'll ask the applicant to come back and address any issues that um uh came up during the public hearing. Um and then uh once uh we're have finished with the applicant the second time, uh then the commission will take the matter under consideration uh and then we will vote. Uh we will have two different votes uh this evening because there's two applications. Uh one is dealing with the preliminary plat for this site and then the other is one is dealing with the uh plan unit development. Okay. I'll ask councelor Wise to explain uh this this this process u and it's a little different than a normal uh process. The one thing I wanted to mention regarding to plan unit developments. I know when

we're dealing with preliminary plats, it's usually a you know final judgment here if it's approved or something, but I just wanted to point out that regardless of the action that's taken here, the final decision on the preliminary plat side along with the um development plan or the plan unit development will be made by the county council. So that's a little bit different in that regard.

Yeah. Normally, uh on a preliminary plat uh once we approve it, it's been approved. The only time the county council is involved is if there is a denial on our part. Uh but in this situation, uh what we would be making with our vote is only a recommendation to the county council. The county council has the the final final vote. So ours is just a recommendation. And as I stated, then this will be uh our recommendation, whatever it ends up being, will be on the county council's agenda on Monday, November 10th of 2025. Uh with that, I see there's no changes or additions to our agenda. Uh the first uh item that we have is uh PUE Pre25-11 and uh PUD25-01. Um the property is located at 588 and 632 East Highway in the property owners are Menure uh Investment Partnership LP uh Neil Menure uh Emanuel Lutheran Church of Wville and Four Arrows Ranch LLC. Uh the surveyor and engineer is Volcorporated. Uh the request is review and recommendation on a preliminary plat and final development plan for the Mer farm subdivision uh which would consist of 520 dwellings, seven commercial lots, and one institutional lot totaling 255.15 acres. staff.

This presentation will cover the application for preliminary plat and final development plan for Menure Farms subdivision, also known as Trailside Farm. This application is not for any reasonzoning or concept plan approval. Those steps have already been addressed and approved. For some context, I will cover some background information on planned unit developments. St. Charles Countyy's zoning regulations offer planned unit developments or PUDs as an alternative to development under traditional zoning. The intent of this program is to permit greater flexibility and provide for more creative and imaginative design for new developments in the county. This allows for the development of more mixed land uses than is generally possible under conventional zoning regulations. The district aims to promote housing choices, flexible building placement, and the preservation of natural scenic open spaces by respecting the topography and geography of the property. In addition to allowing a broader range of land uses, flexibility can also be granted for zoning height, area, and lot recommend or lot requirements. We will now move on to discussing the zoning for the final development plan. The subject properties are located on the south side of Highway N in between Emanuel Lutheran Church and St. Giana Catholic Parish. The property totaling 255 acres in area is currently zoned R1B single family residential and has an approved planned unit development overlay. The properties contain a floodway and a floodway fringe overlay district in the southwest portion of the property. In January of 2010, the county council reszoned the property to R1B single

family residential and approved a con a PUD concept plan. That concept plan authorized the project to be 8% commercial, 7% institutional, 25% attached single family units, and 60% single family detached units. The original development plan included amenities that provided a density bonus that would allow for up to 531 dwellings on the property. This approval set dormant until earlier this year. The developer requested the community development director to allow the development review process to continue by approving a time extension as authorized by county code. As part of this request, a PUB concept plan that accords with the approved 2010 concept plan was submitted and approved. The approved concept plan provides for 8% of the property to be commercial areas, 6% of the property as institutional, 25% of the property as attached single family dwellings, 57% of the property as single family detached dwellings, and the remaining percentage of the property will be developed as conservation and recreation areas. This includes items such as a ball field, an ice skating rink, a community garden, a War of 1812 memorial, and a trail network. The county PUD ordinance requires a minimum of 15% of the project area to be dedicated as open space, and the project well exceeds that. The common ground will be owned and maint own owned and managed by the homeowners association and will preserve the little Darden Creek flood plane, all of the steep slopes in the development, a family cemetery and and residential amenities such as trails, water bodies, a

community garden, a baseball diamond, and a War of 1812 memorial. The PUB ordinances allow for the inclusion of density bonuses. Following the density bonus calculations contained in the written staff memo memo, the approved concept plan shows a total of 520 dwellings. This is 11 dwellings less than the original proposed development and less than the currently allowed maximum number of units. The current proposal we will require some flexibility from the strict applications of the R1B single family zoning district underllayment to this PUD. The development will have four different typical single family detached residential lots. Those will range from 44 feet in width to 90 ft in width and 130 plus feet in depth. The underlying zoning would require a minimum a minimum of 100 ft in lot width. The developer is also requesting the reduction in minimum lot sizes from the 20,000 square foot lot size minimum. The requested averages are 5,830 ft to 12,150 ft. The developer is also requesting a reduction of the front building line from 25 ft to 20 ft. The sideyard sepexs are also requested to be reduced from 10 ft to 7 ft. The development will also have attached single family dwellings and they will comply with the R3A zoning district requirements as permitted under the PUD zoning ordinance. Having discussed zoning for the development, we will now discuss the proposed preliminary plat. In terms of tree preservation, the developer is proposing to preserve 37% of the existing trees on site, which exceeds the county's minimum

requirements for tree preservation. We will next look at the water courses on the property. The subdivision ordinances have many regulations that work to preserve the water quality in our streams. The property contains the Little Darden Creek and approximately 2,400 ft of a water course that is used to drain the areas in this development. The ordinances require a 25- ft vegetated buffer from the top of bank on our blue line streams. A blue line stream is determined by the United States Geological Survey. This property also contains floodway and floodway fringe designated property in the southwest part of the development. The property that is designated as a vegetated buffer. Floodway and floodway fringe are located within the common ground as required by the subdivision ordinances of the county. Staff finds that the flood plane and stream buffer requirements are met. A primary concern for this development is transportation access to the site. Staff will address what tasks the county is currently undertaking and what the developer is proposing for this property. The county is currently working with MDOT to improve Highway N from the intersection with Highway Z on the west to I64 on the east. This design process started in late 2023 with preliminary designs to be completed by December of 2025. Currently, the design will contain two lanes of traffic in each direction with a raised median in the center of the roadway with sidewalks on each side. To accommodate this, the development will need to dedicate some land to rideway. The required ride ofway width is still being determined by the county and MDOT. The proposal or the proposed commercial lots that front on Highway in should

have sufficient depth to accommodate this dedication. MODOT will require the developer to prepare an engineered traffic study to ensure that the improvements to Highway N are properly designed and constructed. There will be an extension to Perry Kate Boulevard that will serve as the primary access point for this subdivision. It will eventually extend down to an extension of Deer Road. The extension will curve behind the Emanuel Lutheran Church and curve eastward towards the property line. It will allow for traffic to and from the church, school, and subdivision to access Highway N at a signaled intersection. The county will share in the cost to construct this collector street in order to extend the county's road network. The internal subdivision streets will be built to county standard for public streets. The Winsville School District comments that they do not enter Culdeacs as a general practice. The developer did include a loop road, so buses will not have to enter the culde-sacs. Those students living on a culde-sac will have to either walk to a loop road or be dropped off there. Excuse me. The subdivision ordinance does require a maximum block length of 1,320 ft. There is one road, an S-curve road in the middle of the subdivision that does exceed this length maximum. The engineer for the development is asking for a variance from this requirement as allowed by county code as adding the street intersection would create practical difficulties. This development has an extensive network of sidewalks, side paths, and off- streetet trails that allow for easy and efficient circulation of pedestrian and bicycle traffic in the neighborhood. This includes a trail that extends along the 3/4 of a mile long natural gas pipeline easement that's in the

subdivision. The property will be served by public water supply district number two for water and by Ducky Creek Sanitary District for sewer. As san as Ducky Creek Sanitary District has recently brought online a new sewage treatment plant on Hopewell Road. This development can be served by public sewer system rather than the previously proposed MBR sewage treatment plant that would have only served this development. This development will not need the installation of any sewage lift stations. The property will be serviced by the Windsville Fire Protection District and they will assist in the placing of fire hydrants in the community. They will also regulate the required fire flows in the community's water supply. The high-pressure gas line that extends across a large portion of the property is owned by Mo Gas Pipeline LLC and the plat does account for all of the regulations that surround a pipeline easement. County code requires that the buildings for private use be a minimum of 25 ft from the property are from the prop pipeline and buildings used for a public use must be a minimum of 100 ft back from the pipeline. If any structure is built within 50 ft of the pipeline, then the pipeline coverings must meet specific US Department of Transportation guidelines. staff reminds the planning and zoning commission that their role is to recommend either approval, denial, or amendment of the preliminary plat and final development plan by majority vote. Staff recommends that the planning and zoning commission recommend approval of both of the of both the preliminary plat and the final development plan as presented, including approval for the proposed lot sizes, widths, and building setbacks as proposed in the preliminary plat and final development plan and grant a variance from the subdivision regulations exhibit A to allow one

residential block length to exceed 1,320 ft. for the S-curve portion of the loop street per section 410.480 of the unified development ordinance. Questions for staff? Yeah. So, if I understand you correctly and by reading this, they could go build right now with the R1B. Yes, they could if if they complied with the requirements for an R1B. Yes. Our question is the lot sizes a little bit different but it's less homes and the variance for the escurve are really the two things that this meeting is about.

So the R1B would allow them to develop on 20,000 foot lots. This is going to allow them to to develop on much smaller lots than that. Right. Okay. Any other questions for staff? Yeah, I got a couple here. Okay. Getting back to the lot size versus the houses, how many if they went just strictly by the current ordinance, how many houses would they be allowed?

So that's you if if you just if it was on a flat piece of ground um let's see. So 255 um times two essentially. So 500 or 610 roughly. Okay. That's that's if it was 100% developable. Yes. If it was if it was a flat piece of property and it was in perfect shape and you could develop the whole thing and you didn't have to worry about roads. Do we know how much of this is actually developable? Um I don't think that we've done the math figuring out exactly what the buildable area is. And and how many houses are in this planned unit development?

What they're currently proposing is 455 houses. Okay. Can I ask a question? Uh, Robert, did you receive a traffic study at at all part of this? No, we don't have a traffic study. The developers been working with MDOT and also roads and traffic division for St. Charles County for some months. There's a scoping meeting set up on October 30th with MDOT and the developer um concerning the traffic study. So the scoping meeting basically they lay out what's the the area of study and what are the parameters of the study and then so they'll have a traffic study following that.

Okay. Do you know if that tra I mean my biggest concern is that they're going to study and they're going to study just this portion of highway N whereas there's concerns all the way down from here all the way down to uh to highway 40 61. So my question is do you know the limits of that traffic study? will let him I mean because we have a lot of adrade streets we have driveways and these are all going to be a concern that's the purpose of the scoping meeting on October 30th they'll talking about to what extent you know what large how large of an area is to be included in the traffic study and and etc. So that's where I'll come out on that at that time.

Well it it seems to me that we got the cart before the horse then shouldn't we be having this meeting after we have that traffic study so we know the full impact. Well, the traffic study will show uh what improvements will need to be built uh for the development. It'll show the you know pavement thickness, the the lane widths, the turn lanes, deceleration lanes, sight distance, things like that coming onto and off the of the property. But the traffic studies not going to say uh no, this development should not be done. it it it will end up saying, you know, if this development goes forward, these are the improvements that need to get built.

Yeah, I don't anticipate saying it's not going to need to move forward. I'm just saying that if they study just this limited area of end, and I understand, you know, they'll show probably turn turn lanes required and whatnot, but it's not really showing the full impact of what the traffic for this development is going to generate further down end. So, I guess like you said, if you haven't had that scoping meeting, maybe I could sit in on it. But I think that scoping meeting needs to really extend farther because the the the the traffic impact is not isolated to this small location of Highway N in my opinion. I I really think that's vital for us to to vote on this tonight in my opinion. But that's we could um take back any comments on the scope of the traffic study and share that with Amanda Brower who's the director of roads and traffic.

Okay. and she could take that into account when at that meeting on October 30th. Yeah. It just needs to it it needs to extend beyond just this limited area in my opinion because the traffic impact down in is going to be greatly felt and it's just unfortunate that that highway end is not improved. I mean if it was not improved I think we'd be having a different conversation right now. But that's you know that's just that's my main concern. A couple questions. Go ahead. Um, okay. On the plan, are the rightway dedications part of this plan? Yeah. You said

they will need to dedicate right ofway for along Highway N. We don't know exactly how many feet that's going to be. So, we're still working on that detail. I don't know if it's going to be 5 feet or 20 feet for instance, but I do know that there's enough depth of the lots proposed along Highway N to account for that. Okay. So, that will be in the final to the county council and that will be part of it.

It'll be part of the plat uh to um be finalized and signed and that'll incorporate whatever rightway the needs are. But I do know that the rightway needs to be 130 ft wide in in front of this location. We're still trying to determine whether the existing um highway end sits exactly within the middle of that rideway or not. So, it's we're just we're trying to nail down the details of exactly how much um theoretically it would be uh let's see what would that be 50 130 6 100 it would be 65 ft from the center line of highway N is is theoretically what we need but we're we want to ensure that the existing highway and improvements are with sitting in the middle of the center line of that.

Okay. So when they do that, will that cover all the lanes needed or is that just for the lanes needed on that side? No, it will cover it'll cover uh on the south side 100% what's needed. It will cover the south side of Highway N. Yeah. Okay. But then on the north side, you'd have to buy that from the other property owners. Yeah, that's right. Okay. To me, they should provide enough to cover the hole. They came down on the other property though. Well, move the road over. The other thing you mentioned, uh, stoplight will go in. Is the developer paying for that? I don't know the specifics whether the

should. Yeah, it's going to be part of the the discussion. I'm sure it's part of the what part of the discussion, the funding discussion between the county and the developer. 100% should be the developer. It's needed because of them. It should be paid for by them. Um, and then this this does bump up to Westville City limits on the north. Yes,

it does. Okay. I just I saw that. I just want to make sure because they they sent I see the city of Wsville sent in their what they thought of this project and kind of hard on. We can't hear you. Okay. It's kind of hard to follow going back between your and what they said. How much of what they said um correlates to what is being done here? Uh their concerns. how much of their concerns have been addressed.

My recollection of the concerns, um, I disagree with some of the points that they're asking. For instance, they're asking about the master plan for city of Wal for St. Charles County, but the master plan isn't really pertinent in this case because we're past the zoning point. We're talking about the preliminary plat and final development plan. So, the property already has the zoning it needs in order to develop. So the master plan isn't really relevant in that regard. For example, um that was that was one of the points that I recall from the Oh, also they asked if we could confirm whether or not uh the approval in 2010 was still valid. And yes, we have gone through that uh from a legal standpoint in detail and we've uh made that determination before we ever place this on the And do you does the county ever require developers to pay for the road

that Yes. need to go in highway? Like what would be needed additional on highway?

Well, the developers could uh engineer could speak better to that than I can, but I can tell you that all interior roads, they're paying for all of that 100%. the proposed um uh road, the collector street, the extension of Perry Cape Boulevard. Uh we're looking at the county spending 60% and the the developer paying 40%. That's my recollection. The reason is because that's an arterial roadway and it would be using funds from the 1% um transportation tax to extend the the uh arterial roadway network. And then for Highway N, um, honestly, I don't know exactly what the breakdown is in terms of developer contributions for improvements along Highway N,

but but there will be some Yeah, I'm I'm sure, you know, MODOT's not going to pay for 100% of improvements uh for for developments.

Okay. So, forgive me if I'm going over stuff we've already talked about, but it seems like a major concern here is is going to be the traffic on Highway N itself, particularly between here and um you know, where 364 61 is um to the east. We often talk in here about the expansion of Highway N, putting more you know, as it's as it's going west. Eventually, there's in the master plan plans to expand highway N, put more um lanes in there. What are we talking about here? If we're adding in a a whole subdivision, is there going to be an expansion of highway end? Are we going to have more lanes? Is there going to be more availability for more cars on there? Because clearly that's going to bring more cars,

right? There's a in the this county staff report, there's a cross-section of the configuration for Highway N in front of this property. And essentially it would be two lanes going each direction and a median. And then there would be signalized intersection at Perry Kate. And there would be turn lanes uh deceleration lanes. So if you're going east on Highway N, you could decelerate and then turn onto this south into the development.

And how how far down does that go? As as Tim was saying, I mean there's going to be a significant number of more cars there that are going both directions. So, if we just expand it right by the subdivision, that doesn't help. As the cars go either direction, does is there a certain amount of space either way that must be expanded? It's going to be done as one project between uh Highway Z and 364. Okay. So, that whole area is going to be expanded. Yeah. It wouldn't just be one segment in front of one particular development. And do we know when the what is the schedule for having that expansion done? I don't know the um development schedule. I know that they're intending for the design to be finished by the end of this year. Okay,

that's that's the information that I have.

I asked that question uh before this meeting and what I was told is they're looking at 2930. So, you know, we're still what 5 years away. So, uh that's my understanding. And then with the road projects and trying to get easements and right away, sometimes it go when it goes to court, it takes a lot longer than than they're planned. I mean, I'm as a transportation engineer, I've been invol involved in many road projects and and I can tell you we always underestimate when we can get these done. So, that's that's again, that's a big concern. If if we've got we've got this development adding all this traffic and there's nothing being done on Highway N, then what do you know the the toothpaste is out the bag at that at that point. So, you know,

so we'd be talking about putting this in and then sometime down the road potentially 5 years or more at that point expanding highway end. We're not talking about expanding highway end as this is being built. No. Right. Um but also development would happen in phases. So what we're looking at is a preliminary plat which which is an integrated um development plan. But even after preliminary plat approval, typically developments actually happen in phases. The final plat happens over a period of years.

So let's just say preliminary plat would be approved this year. Then the final plat would be phased over the next I don't know five years. It's it's not that the an entire development gets done all at once. It's it's done in stages. Do we have any sort of schedule for when those stages are planned to be completed? I mean, it sounds like you're saying it'd be five years before the whole thing would be done, and by that time, hopefully, we would have highway N expanded, but is there any sort of a schedule for when they plan to get which stage done?

There's a development schedule on the face of the concept plan for when the different phases would begin. It doesn't have on that concept plan when the phases would end. I think the developers could probably answer that better than I could. Sure, that makes sense. Any other questions for staff? Uh, Miss Bar, I did want to correct something I did say earlier. I said 455 homes. That was incorrect. That that was I believe that was just the detached single family. The total number of dwellings is 520. So about the same. Yeah. Okay. Okay. We'll now uh ask the applicant to come forward.

You solemnly swear or affirm that you tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings or the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. My name is David Boss. I'm with BS Engineering and our address is 10849 Indian Head Boulevard 63132. Go ahead, Mr. BS. And I'm going to correct you one more time, Mark. It's actually 470. 470 is the current plan. Okay.

470. Um, okay. So, again, my name is David BS. I'm with BS Engineering. And with me tonight is David Cole with DCM Land and he's sitting right over there. And I'm going to repeat a lot of what Mark just went through, but we're seeking uh approval of preliminary plat and final development plan for the 255 acres site on the south side of Highway N just across from Perry Kate. And the site was originally zoned R1B back in 2010 along with the PUD that allowed 531 units. So back in 2010, the PUD allowed 531 units. And then due to the economy, um, nothing was built back then and it was put on hold. And at that time, they were going to put in a membrane treatment plant for the sanitary sewer. When the economy came back, that no longer became available. So the site basically was put on hold until Ducket Creek put their new treatment plant down there, and that's what's opened it back up. So again, our current plan is for 470 units, which is a significant reduction from the 531 that were originally allowed. This is a location map, which I'm sure you all know. That's the site right there in red. Um, highway N right here, Highway Z going up here. This is Emanuel Lutheran, which is right there. St. Giani, and this is Timberland High School, which is right here. The the blue is City of Wsville, the red is uh Lake St. Louis and the green is the city of Oanlin just to reference. And this is Dardian Creek right down here. And this is actually a branch of Dardian Creek called Little Dardian Creek that comes up and just basically touches the the southwest corner of the site. Um Perry Kate, this is Stone Metal Subdivision. Perry Kate comes down right here, right

to there. And there's actually an existing signal there right now. So this is already signalized. And the plan ultimately would be to bring and it become dire on the south side here but bring it down to here and this is dyer road right here which goes over to highway D and um so dire road is built to right here right now. So Perry Kate Dyer would come down to here and then eventually when this piece was developed you would have basically that arterial road that went all the way through there. So that's the ultimate plan. Let me show you the aerial of the site so you can get a better idea of it. Obviously, these are the wooded or the the farms area. So, all of this is open farm. This is is a mostly wooded area. Um, again, Perry Kate up here, Emanuel Lutheran, St. Giani. This is New Mele Lakes, which is a large lot subdivision to the west of us. And a couple things I want to point out here is this right here is a is a pretty good creek. And so the these are the constraints that I would say on the site. So you have a creek right here that we can't and don't want to disturb. And this is the pipeline. So the pipeline runs right up through here. And then this right here again is Little Dardine Creek on the south. Um and now I just want to go through some history of the site which which Mark did as well. But this right here is the 2010 concept plan and this is when the site was reszoned to R1B with the PUD for the 531 units. This was where they had proposed um Perry Kate at the time. We're we're actually moving it over here. But all the area on the west side of that is designated as single family. All the area on the east side of that was designated attached villas. So this this is an attached area right here and again that's the church and then this area is the uh commercial area and

again it was delayed by the recession and ducket creek sewer. So this is the current concept plan that that we have didn't switch. This is the current concept plan. So basically again this is the single family area and the attached villa areas are right now here and here. So there's two areas for the villas. So it's much much smaller and this is the Emanuel Lutheran plan and then the commercial area is is up here. So what I wanted to say is that all of these things and here's the here's the site plans that went along with that. This is this is the site plan and this is the rendering that was done as part of that concept plan and going through the history. All of these plans that you see here are all done approved past and these are all past history. So after you the next process after you have a concept plan approval is the final development plan and they call it a final development plan because your zoning is already in place your concepts already in place you and what we do when we do the final development plan is we have better topo we have better information and so we start doing design on it. So this is our final development plan. I just want you to see the difference between the two plans. They're basically identical. So, this final development plan is almost identical to the to the concept plan that that was previously approved. Um, the exception is that this one has 470 units and I think the concept plan had 474 it had four more units. And honestly, they're changing the name. So, so those are the two big changes when we got to this this final plan that you're looking at. And I just want to talk about the layout here because this was actually very fun to work on. Um, sometimes we do we do projects and it's a grid type project where we're just trying to, you know, do the max we can. But on this project, there really was a goal to try to make it a nicel looking project where we use big giant loops and and S-curve. This is actually the

S-curve that we're talking about right there. But you can see that we loop the road and they're they're uh their curves in it. And the other thing I want to point out is there's really three three distinct development areas. And that's why I wanted to bring all those constraints earlier. So you have the pipeline running up through here and then you have the road right here. So this right here is its own its own thing. So So uh these are the actually the 44T lots right here. And um that's where the collector road will be. Then then you have the creek coming up here in the pipeline. So this was another basically a it's not a second subdivision all part of this but it was we kind of had to plan it all separately. And these are the 62 foot lots in this area right here with access right here off of the off the collector road. And then this was the uh is the 78s and 90 foot lots. And you can see that we were just pretty creative with that and I was really proud of how that thing came out. And then up here are the are the seven commercial lots. One thing I'll say about the commercial lots is um the goal was to put a a road down here and actually it connects to St. Giana. Um, but the road down here means that the access to these out parcels comes off of uh the internal road, not not off of Highway N. Although there is going to be a ride in right out here, which is directly across the street from what the school has right there. But uh that that right there is the is the intersection and that's Perry Cape to the north of it. But that already is signalized. So some of the amenities that I wanted to point out on this site u first what Mark had said is true. to the common ground area here. What's required by under a PUD is 15% common ground and we actually have 26% of of this site as common ground. That includes, you know, that being in there not as common ground. So we have we have 26% 57 acres of it is common ground. The wooded areas we're

required to to maintain 25% of the existing vegetation or existing woods and this site has 37%. And that's all in these areas up up through this creek. That's a wooded creek, which is which is pretty nice. And then what we did is we put the development on the farm. That's all farmland where where the homes go. So the areas that were not farmland that are existing woods out there right now, those are the areas that we that we tried to preserve. So we're preserving 50% more of the woodland areas than than we're actually required to. Um, another thing I wanted to point out is the is the one of the things and the new the new name is trailside. So there should be trails on here. So along the pipeline going from here to here there there's going to be trails along here. There's trails. There's trails that go around these lakes and and connect down to this area right here. And there's actually two miles two miles of trails that are going to be part of the development, not including the sidewalks which go along the street. So the sidewalks there's there's about four miles of sidewalks. So in this development, 470 lots, we have six miles of sidewalks and trails. And that's why one of the reasons why we're calling it trailside. And then in addition to that, you have this whole area over here which is which is uh just basically natural area for for people to hike in. Um another thing that we have as part of this PUB is actually this is not part of the PUD, but it used to be part of the Menture family, but you really have two churches that were that are part of it. uh these trails that come along here and even through here where you see these bumpouts right here. One of the things that that we're trying to do there is to to highlight the fact that this was a farm and and this is a farm property. So there's going to be exhibit areas in there. And what that means is they're going to put things that that correlate with the farm like old equipment, stuff like that that are going to be on display in these in these exhibit areas that are throughout the project. Couple playgrounds. I know

there's a playground here. There's a big playground in this area down here. Uh there's six lakes. There's more detention basins, but six of them are going to be wet and and lakes. The soldier memorial at is going to be at the entrance, and that's actually located right here. And that honors the the veterans from the War of 1812. I don't really know much about that, but um I know that that was an important thing that we tried to put in here. In fact, when we did this layout originally, uh the lake was going to be up here and then the memorial was going to be right here, but uh because they wanted that as you came in, the entrance to be one of the things you see, but us dumb engineers like to put the lakes on the low side. So, we moved it down here and put the put a pretty good lake down here, but the the war memorial is going to be right up there. And then you have this community area right here. And that community area is about 12 plus acres. 12 acres. And here's a blowup of the of the area. And what you have here is you have a baseball field. You have a playground. Actually, you can drive to it. There's a there's going to be a drive that comes down here with a pretty size pretty goodized parking lot. This is is a detention base in the lake. But what we're going to do is we're going to basically carve off a part of it and make it less deep uh so that it could be used as a ice rink. And that's one of the things that we were asked to to incorporate into the plan. They're they're going to rebuild some of the structures that are on the property down here. Some of the historic buildings and farm buildings are going to be rebuilt down here and it's going to be a community garden area and barn history area. So, this is this whole area right here is 12 acres, not to mention the 30 plus acres of common ground as you as you went to the north here. But that's that's uh what you have down there. So, uh, let me move on now to I know the big issue is the is the traffic concern with MDOT and highway N improvements. And I know everybody wants this highway

N to be built from Highway Z all the way to to to highway 40 right now, but you know, that's not how MODOT work. Mo MDOT doesn't work that way. People people bring improvements in and then MODOT will will uh solve the problem. Um, so, um, we have been preparing a traffic study. It's not done yet, but because we've been meeting with MDOT. I've had I've had three meetings with MDOT. Uh, and Amanda Bower, who's who's not here. Um, CBB is doing the traffic study. U, we've I've talked to George Butler and Associates a bunch of times about what requirements they need right here because we're trying to incorporate this into their plan. They've given me different rideways that they want through that because they're the they're the guys that are doing the design of the thing right now. They're working on it right now and we're we've been coordinating that signal. We've been coordinating the road improvements that have to be done right here. We've

what's that? We've been uh incorporating u the rightway that we're going to give right there so that so that it works with their ultimate plan. Um, and you know, we'll we'll also upgrade that signal right there because right now it's it it's just a T. So when that's upgraded, we want to make sure that the that the new signal is not going to have to be relocated when when uh the ultimate improvements are done. So that's the other thing we're we're coordinating coordinating with them. two things that I would point out I and and global you're right 100% that it needs to be a global study which CBB has done most of those studies up and down there so so they're very very familiar with it so on October 30th when the when the uh meeting takes place they will be able to scope out what what exactly they want but CBB is very very very familiar with the whole thing two localized traffic issues which have nothing to do with the global issue are one the Timberland High School and two the Lutheran Lutheran school. And this right here is the the the traffic that's caused by uh Timberland High School used to be horrible. It's getting better than it used to be the in the last this year. It's better than it was last year, which is better than it was two years ago. So, um so and I drive that. I drive that every day.

I drive that every day. So, I I know what that what that is. Uh Emanuel the the another localized problem is the Emanuel school right here. Uh because they have one access point right here and when MODOT does their ultimate improvements that's going to be a right in right out. So um if you're driving west on Highway N right now at 3:00 it's it's horrible because the schools in you know letting out and there's people picking up cars and it's it's just a a horrible thing. And what this project does, it's going to eliminate that localized problem because Emanuel Lutheran now would have the ability to tie into Dire Road right here and go through that signalized intersection instead of instead of what happens now, which there's basically a big giant problem from Lake St. Louis Boulevard all the way out here. So, um, anyways, in in my in conclusion, I just want to point out again that this is not a new development. This is not a new development. This is the zoning's already in place. The concept plans in place. This is the final plan for a community that was really started in 2010 and that went from 531 units to 470 units. So, which is over 60 unit reduction. So, um I'm sure there's Oh, you you know what? Let me bring up the S-curve because I actually had forgotten about that. So, so the I think the code says that you can't have a a block longer than 1320 ft and nobody really from that point to that point is being is being uh determined as a block. Um you know with how we did this design the goal was to have loops and circulation. So you you have circulation all the way around here, you have circulation all the way around here. So that was the plan of the thing. So the the you know I just need a I just need that

variance to to allow that S-curve right there. But my my comment is that there's plenty of circulation through here. So there's really no need to to limit that length. And I don't think anybody would have looked at the at that from there to there as a as a block length. So and with that I'm we'll answer any questions you have. Questions for the I got a couple here. Sure. Um, on our info, we have a map that's different from that map. On page 21 of the info you gave us, there's a area that says future development. It's not on there, but it's on ours.

You know what? I'm glad you corrected me. So, so over here and let me let me see if I can So, so that area is right here. Um, and there is a stub that would go down there. And I think that the the con the concept plan allows maybe 20 units there. Um, that would be in addition to the 470 that I said. But this is this is the property that that we're but there is a future development right there. You couldn't possibly put 20 units over there, but that's uh that is on the con the concept plan and I forgot to mention that. So, yeah, I don't

Oh, here's the here's the uh from the staff report. This came from the staff report just so everybody can see it. This is the Mo DOT's This is not mine. This is Mo Dot's rendering of uh of the ultimate uh highway N with two lanes on either side and an island in the middle and a walk on either side. I think a trail on one side and a walk on the other side. But okay, why why are you holding this out for future development? It's it's not our property. So um so what what we what the mentors own this there's actually three owners here. There's the Lutheran Church, then there's the Menure family, and then there is um the Fort Arrows.

What's it? Fort Arrows. Fort Arrows. So, that's a that's a when this was done back in 2010, there was actually three property owners and that property owner is not is not uh part of this final plan. Okay. Is that future area part of this info or part of this request? No, what we have before us tonight is the preliminary plat and final development plan, which is this red outlined area. So, the future development area, they'd have to come back later with a their own preliminary platin final development plan. Okay. Um, on your info, the same question I asked them. Are you paying for the stoplight?

There's going to be a joint agreement, which I'm I actually don't know. Uh but just like just like um Robert said with the with the road right here, there's a joint agreement between the county and the developer. And I think it was a 60/40 split, which is what they've done, you know, throughout the entire entire county. That's generally the rule. So I'm sure there'll be some type of a split as well with with the signal. Okay. On your map there, how much of that area is developable acres wise? How much of is what on on the where the residential units are? How many acres are the actual residential units

of the total of about how many? Well, there is uh 57 acres of common ground and our this right here our our land proper I think is 219 acres. Um, so it'd be 219US 57 is the area of lots. Is that that's what you're asking? Yes, the area of lots. How many acres is that? It would be uh 219us 57. So, need my engineer to do that for me. So, roughly 160. How how many residential units would be allowed on 160 acres? We'd have to calculate

with the exact with the exact zoning as it is right now. We'd have to calculate that because um it just the underlying zoning district allows 20,000 square foot lots. So that's a little more than two lots per acre. But if you subtract out like the the typical common ground, the vegetative buffers, the streets, etc., it takes a lot out of that. So well, he's already taken it out. So, yeah, he he said there's there's roughly 160 acres. So, that's 320 homes if it's too two too.

What I'm getting at is they came in right now and said they want to put in 320 homes, you guys would just have to approve it because it hit the ordinance.

If Yeah. If a development came in that didn't have a PUD that just had the underlying R1B single family district zoning that came in with a plat, it conformed with all of the uh the technical requirements of the plat, we would be obligated to approve the plat. Yeah. And it's the way I see it, it's the same situation with the PUD plat as well. If there's a PUD plat that uh if excuse me if there's a preliminary plat for PUD and it meets all of the technical requirements of the plat meets all the underlying zoning in my thinking we're obligated to approve the plat.

So you guys already had something approved. I'm a little a little fuzzy as to exactly what's going on with that. Okay. So you had a different plat approved that was 500. So, so in 2010, in 2010 that was approved. Okay. Which, which which is the reasonzoning and the PUD. So, there was a reasonzoning approved to R1B. So, if you wanted to to build Well, that's it's not specific. It's just a general concept, right?

Yeah. That was amended though to to a current plan. This is the current the current plan. And this current plan is a three sheet plan. This is sheet one. This is sheet two. And this is sheet three. So this is currently approved. This concept plan, that's why I wrote concept plan up there. Is already approved. This is already approved for 4 That's not it. This is it for 474 units. This is

So I guess my question is what is the difference between what you already have approved and what you're asking us to approve? The the difference is the process the process is you reszone the property with the PUD concept plan approval and then you get then then what happens is I have to start looking at it and say hey can I make this work? So so I get a better topo. I get a better uh boundary survey. I I get all of the things I need to do. I start talking to the pipeline company and I try to get all my facts in order and then I see if I can get this to match the concept plan. A lot of times you can't.

Okay. Now, in this particular case, it's it's very very very very close to what the what the concept plan is. And mostly that's because um I actually did have a good too. Uh I didn't have a complete total because because between between that plan which is approved and this plan the big difference is honestly this area changed because u like I told you we moved the lake down from up there to down here and these these lots were lost because we needed more room for detention. Um, and I think there's probably some other changes that took place, but

so it sounds like what you're telling me is the subdivision being built has already been approved. That's already the fact that this is what we're approving is the specifics, the minutia of exactly exactly how it's going to be built. Not that it's going to be built, but how it's going to be built. Is that correct?

You're approving and planning director. You're you're approving the final plan. So, so in the subdivision ordinance, you have to go through this process and the next process after this would be improvement plan approval, which would be through the staff, but it goes from the zoning to a concept to to a final development plan. And they call it a final development plan because this is the the and I feel good about it because it matches so closely to the to the concept plan. So, I guess the point I'm trying to make is is not just for for myself, but for everyone here that's listening, okay? Is that the subdivision itself, the building of the subdivision has already been approved, and all we're voting on today is the specifics of exactly how you're going to do it. Is that is that relatively accurate?

You you're voting on a final development plan and a preliminary plat, which is which is the next step, but Okay. But, uh, you know, yeah, that's approved. this is the next step and and uh yeah it's if you look at the staff report our two questions is is lot size width and setback because of these different sizes of homes and then the scurve

and I didn't really go through the lot sizes again um because they are basically the same as what was on the concept plan but that little chart right down there is is how many of each type of lots I will tell you by doing this type of a layout right here. I was able to make the lots a lot deeper. Um, so normally, you know, you have a you have a 80 foot lot and it's maybe 125 foot deep and most of these lots over here actually are like 145 ft deep. So, we were able to make them deeper and most of them have common ground bottom and actually we put common ground even here between the lots because I had the room between that creek and this wooded area which I wanted to preserve. What is your the do you have an estimate of the buildout of the entire project?

Yeah. So, um I actually gave this and I think this was part of the concept plan, but I wish I would have brought a slide of this but uh and I'll give it to you. You can put it on the uh Oh, I can't. But there you go. Oh,

pull it pull it down a little bit. There you go. So, so this is the the development um the construction schedule that that was part of the I think it was part of the concept plan, but but um this is site improvements. So that gray area, you can't see the color very well, but that gray area right there is site improvements. So it' be the construction, the grading, the construction of the sewers and everything like that. And then this phase one would be the home construction. So it starts here in, you know, sometime in 2026. You probably start occupying houses because it takes like nine months to build a house now. But so you'd be occupying houses here in 2027. And that's the phase one, which there is two phases um that that'll be built in. And then the phase two of the single family starts starts right here and gets built through 2030. So that's 2029. So 2020 2030. And this is these are the commercial lots which we we really don't have any plans because of commercial lots right now. They're they're nobody is looking at them. Nobody has bought them. So they're but I just put those on there as I blocked the whole time out because you don't know when those are going to happen. And then these are the town homes. And honestly there's nobody nobody on the town houses right now. So the the things that you're going to see built are the single family houses. And they would be built basically from they'd be closed and occupied starting in 20 or late 2026 probably maybe 2027 through 2030. So that's the that's the phasing of it.

How many how many single family homes are you looking at? Um there are I should have this off the top of my head. So So the the homes there's 107 90 foot lots. 107 90 foot lots. There's 94 78 foot lots. There's 82 62 foot lots. And then there's 100 villa lots. So, um, whatever that comes out to 300 something plus what? 94. 107 + 94 plus 82 + 100. Are your villas attached? 383.

The villas. The villas are detached. They they're they're not attached. The only thing that's attached is in I can go back to the to the other thing. So So there's 383 homes. So basically you have another 90 of the town homes and the Yeah. Okay. These are these are the town homes. Okay. But but and these are the the single family. So there's 300 some 380 some single family and those will be built you know through 2030. Any other questions for the applicant? I do have one for staff. What is the zoning on the commercial lots? Right now, it's R1B single family residential.

Commercial lots. Yeah, it's R1B single family residential with a PUD overlay. That's the current zoning. So in the with the PUD overlay, uh you can have a range of land uses and it and the ordinance spells out exactly which zoning district um uses are allowed within the PUD. So it's it's all the entire tract is R1B single family residential with PUB overlay. Okay. Um so they sell the seven commercial lots. Will they have to come back as to what what control do we have over what goes on those commercial lots?

The the ordinance specifies that uh how it's to be treated in terms of the zoning. They have to meet the zoning district of the I think it's the C2 zoning district C1 COC1. Yeah. Okay. Those are the two districts. And so the the uses that are allowed in the CO office commercial. I'm gonna turn on the microphone. Yeah. the CO office commercial and the C1 neighborhood commercial would be what would be allowed in there.

Okay. Thank you. And then I'm sorry, I should have thought of this before, but you specifically to your question, Mr. N Miller, in your packet in this staff report, there is this density bonus calculation. And if you go like halfway down the calculation, it tells you how many dwellings could be developed before the density bonus calculation. So for instance, you take the total PUB area, you subtract out the commercial area, you subtract out the ride ofway, subtract out the detention basins, and what's called the project area is 207 acres. And so um and you divide that by the standard residential density, and you get this NEP development of 453 dwellings before any 453 dwellings before density bonuses. So I I think that probably answers your question because you you wanted to know you know if you subtract out the

my question was yeah they just came in follow the zoning present letter had no exceptions no scurves no nothing how many houses could they come in do a plat and just have to be approved it was 540 if I recall on the and we you just have to do a calculation there's not a standard answer for that the lots have to be at least a minimum of 20,000 square feet and then um you have to subtract out the streets and all that, but I could do a calculation and give you um an estimate.

I think that the general question, if I'm understanding correctly, is what happens if we don't approve this? If we don't approve this, what can they already build? I think that's what he's trying to figure out is what can they do without this approval? single family residential R1B single family residential on 20,000 and and how many dwelling units would that be is what I'm trying to get at is if they just followed the ordinance to the tea how many would they do could they get versus coming to us as calculation I can't I can't do it on the fly

I think we figured that that was 300 something that I think we figure 162 acres time, you know, 320ish. 320ish plus a 15% bonus. You got roads and detention basins and sidewalks. So, you know, it's going to be less than that. Well, that was already taken into account common areas. You wouldn't have to put the sidewalks in. Yeah. You don't have to do all that stuff with the sidewalks or the ballpark and even the common areas are not those are optional. Those they're adding. So, you don't have to take those account. Okay. So potentially more

any other questions for the any questions for the applicant? Anything further? Okay. Thank you. One more question. Did did you go to the city of Wville to be annexed? No. Did what was the question? Did you go to the city of Wville to be annexed in? No. Because because again this is a process that's been I actually started working on this in 2008. in '08 because you went you went to the county first. Okay. 17 years for me. So, uh you know from my point of view there's a existing PUB in place so I don't have to do a straight R1B and I have a concept plan in place

and I understand the traffic the traffic uh situation but the plan itself is is already in place and we're just trying to do a final plan that matches it. Yeah. And I understand also that we have to I'll save my preaching to the end. So any other questions? Thank you, sir. Thanks.

Okay. So, we'll now open the public hearing for P25-01 and P25-11. Uh, anyone wishing to speak, come forward. Remember, you have uh 3 minutes, I'll give you a one minute uh signal. So, if you have anyone wishing to speak, surely somebody's going to speak. That's okay. I think he was ahead.

Hold on. Let me get my uh timer set here. You solemnly swear our privilege you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings from the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record. My name is Eric Fields. I live at 11 Wild Turkey Run in Oallen. Okay. Go ahead, sir.

Um so, um I'll I'll avoid the traffic issue. Obviously, it's I think everybody understands that the traffic is a disaster as it stands. Um I we've I'm sure some of us know, maybe some people don't. There's 1500 homes being built about a half mile to the east of this location right now. Um there's no way that traffic can be uh brought into a traffic study yet because it doesn't exist yet, but the homes are being built. We all know at Harvest and at the Post Farms. Um I I'm I'm really here more um to ask the planning and zoning committee to really think about these subdivisions that are being proposed and popped up. Um, this is another 400 plus homes. Um, the school district cannot handle this stuff. The roadways can't handle this stuff. We're we're basically turning St. Charles County into just an extension of St. Louis County. We're going to be all giant neighborhoods, uh, strip malls, you know, grocery stores, and and big box stores if this keeps up. Um, and that's really something we should look at and probably try to stay away from because this is St. Charles County and not St. Louis County and people leave St. Louis County to get away from that. and yet we're turning this place into the same thing. Um, I'm also here to speak to the people that might catch this at home or be watching it on their YouTubes. Um, there's there's a massive swell amongst the people in this in the community that are opposed to these developments and stuff like this. And uh I I realize that people write emails and they have uh this that or the other reasons they can't come to these meetings. Um I'm I'm appealing to the people that are watching at home. Uh you need to come to these meetings. You need to show up. um you need to show the people that are on the planning and zoning committee, you need to show the people on the county council that you're actually opposed. And as much as the emails help, you need to be here in person. So, uh the next meetings that are held, please people come out. Um let let the members of these committees see, you know, that the community really is opposed to these giant subdivisions being put in. Thank you.

Anyone else?

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings with the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Uh Nathan Harms, executive director, Treehouse of Greater St. Louis, 332 Stable Lane, Wesville, Missouri. Go ahead, sir.

Uh as the executive director of Treehouse of Greater St. Louis, we're a nonprofit that provides ecoin assisted therapy to individuals with disabilities and their families for over 50 years in St. Charles County. Appreciate the opportunity to share public comment tonight. I'm here to express our opposition to and concerns regarding applications PR 2511 and PUD 25501 for the Menures Farm subdivision. The 80acre therapeutic campus of Treehouse of Greater St. Louis is adjacent to a parcel included in the proposed highdensity development. I did note there was some conversation earlier. It is the parcel that on page 15 is is marked one way and on page 21 it's marked a different way. Um one place it says future development. Another one slots it for uh 20 lots on 19 acres. Uh we anticipate environmental impacts, detrimental changes to the character of nearby homes and neighborhoods and a significant worsening of existing traffic congestions and safety issues that we have already all talked about. Also, the concerns that we shared involving horses in therapy for individuals with disabilities uh earlier this year regarding a smaller 15 lot proposal off of Highway Z are amplified in this new higher density proposal. Our concerns continue to be rooted in the health and safety of the people we serve and in the community that we share. Highway N, as we already discussed, currently experiences substantial delays and persistent traffic jams during morning and afternoon commutes, disrupting daily life and business operations for all, including clients, volunteers, and staff who utilize this thoroughfare to access our facility for therapy. This development promises to add a substantial volume of vehicles to an already overburdened road network, exacerbating an already dire situation. While there's been conversation today,

it appears that there is no timeline for those improvements. Um, at this time, it looks like from MDOT's website, there appears to still be a fall community advisory group process to review conceptual design and gather input that's noted as not started. Furthermore, the increased density and corresponding rise in imperous services pose a threat to the health of Little Darden Creek and surrounding areas. I believe feed I'm not a soil scientists, but in my read the feedback from soil and water indicated that a significant portion of soils had very slow infiltration rates uh which obviously would need to be addressed to uh mitigate issues with drainage, water runoff and erosion for surrounding areas. Uh lastly, our shared communities chose this area for its more rural atmosphere, its tranquility, and that's important to our operations and also to the community. I believe we along uh we believe this is not the right time or place for this project or any project of similar scale. We respectfully request that the planning and zoning commission deny this proposal and we urge the commission to support responsible growth including reduced density and other get mitigating efforts to lessen the impact the development will have on adjacent land owners as well as all of us. Thank you for your time. [Applause] Anyone else? Oh, hold.

Oh, sorry. They gota they got to make a deadline to be on the news. You solemnly swear firm that you tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

West Norton, 16 Clear Lake Court in the New LA Lakes Estates adjacent to the area. Um, I have the impressive presentation from uh the engineer here and I agree with a lot of things that therapeutic uh sportsmanship has just said there. I won't repeat those. A couple of things uh Mr. Baker, you were right on quue that what we should be looking at. the at least two people in the Missouri uh Department of Transportation say that it will be at least 10 years before there's actual construction to expand in this area. So, we should be clear on that. There's been some different uh things set out here. So, I was hoping that Miss Rrow would be here tonight. Tried to reach read her, but I have not been able to talk with her. she working with mod and I think she would probably uh uh say that what I'm I'm relating to you is correct. So that is very critical. Uh I'm a former safety engineer. When I try to get out onto Highway in now, as the current traffic is, uh it is often uh very uh much taking a chance when there is a gap long enough to get in into that space. and that could only get worse. I think the two the other qu thing that's been uh uh broached here is you as a commission looking at uh the quality of St. Charles County and how it's uh your decisions are based on density. And this uh again was very well planned, very well prepared, but it's very clear that uh every inch of this acreage is being uh being used and density is not uh one of the qualifying uh decision makers. So as you're looking

at your decision logic, I would really ask you not only with this but as you know the other the other things that have been approved uh if uh if your decision is improving or if it is deteriorating all of those issues. We've already talked about the schools but this many new homes in there. There's bound to be I don't know they studied it how many what they're likely to be but added to uh our schools that are straight across from there. Uh I've been here for 32 years. Uh I don't recall in 2010 uh having had the opportunity to input into decision. I don't know how many of you all were on this commission. Uh it keeps being u discussed that two that this has already been approved. I know at least I think it was two or three places the changes that you mentioned reduce reduced the amount of setback and so that is a change that re relates right to the uh increased density of this type of development uh and that includes I'm sure the setback from uh New Mele Lake Estates and my my acreage which is just uh adjacent. So, I appreciate you a chance to uh have input. I hope that this is still an open item. Uh the uh there is equipment that's already been lined up uh uh at this acreage. And so, I hope it's not a foregone conclusion that you're going to uh pass this and move forward with quarter 2025, which we're already in, you know, the middle of October, uh where they're planning on the first phase of this. So, thank you for the chance to talk.

Thank you, sir. [Applause]

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, whole truth, and nothing about the truth in these proceedings or the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Dolores Twilman. I live at 29 East Highway N which is adjacent to the water tower and Highway Z. Lived there for almost 30 years now. Moved from Cadoville to that area thinking I was moving to the country and my dad um developed Ducket Creek District as Bill Patty. So I'm very familiar with this. We've been builders with MCI Construction for over 50 years. I own a a crane company, Missouri Crane. So we have commercial in that area. Uh I'm familiar with the cold family quite well. Um good family and I believe that farmers have the right to sell, developers have the right to build, but you have to have the infrastructure there to do so. Without that, you have a a dangerous situation out there. Um, I have watched it where it has just developed into an unbelievable mess. There are the there's no side street. I mean, you don't have any curbs. I mean, they put a little bit of curbs down, thank goodness, but there is none. You you can't get off the road. Um, the accidents in front of our house are plentiful. Um, there needs to be some police studies also with what goes along with uh the traffic reports. My daughter-in-law is an autistic school teacher at uh Liberty and she just said yesterday, "We are at capacity. Timberland's at capacity. Are we even looking at the school districts to see what they're doing?" I'd like to know about public water district number two. How are they going to supply water? Wilmer Road, their subdivisions over there have a huge problem with water. They cannot get the volume they need in these homes. There are so many issues here. I believe, and I hate to say this, I mean I really do. I've built my own subdivisions, first condominiums in St.

Charles, but I think a more a moratorum needs to be done to force MODOT to give us what we need. We we have been promised, you know, expansion of our roads. We have not got it. And until we get that, we got to quit building. Post subdivision is going full force. There is there's no way that we can handle any more traffic on that highway. Uh my kids, my grandkids go to Lutheran. I cannot believe how much we depend upon the good nature of our our our neighbors to let us in and out. And once in a while you get a guy that's going to let you go and then he decides not to and then you got a break. Uh that's I just need one more time to understand that this needs to be looked at a lot more than what you've done here tonight. So thank you very much for your time.

Thank you ma'am. [Applause] Do you solemnly swear I affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth of nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Tom Ruff. Um I'm here as a representative of Emanuel Lethan Church which is at 632 uh East or East Highway N. um seen been seen many times this evening on the the plots. Um we're at our location currently because of the generosity of the venture family uh who gifted land for us to to build the church in that location. And um following that uh we've experienced some tremendous growth. Uh we've had a lot of uh growth in both the weekend ministries as well as our school. Um and uh that's led us to kind of look at some of the limitations we have uh with our campus. We formed an LRP, a long range planning committee and uh came up with two primary limitations um on our on our property right now. Um and that's traffic which has been mentioned and and sanitation uh sanitary sewer access. Those are the two biggest uh problems we have with our uh uh current um campus and utilizing that. Uh we currently have uh 550 kids a day approximately going in and out um for preschool through 8th grade. Um and you know that of course totals up to a lot of flushes as well, right? So a lot of uh a lot of things to deal with with a septic system. Um we've tried to address both um ourselves. Uh we approached Bumodat, we went to Ducket Creek, you know, we talked to to different people in county. Um we basically were were stuck. Uh we've then got a phone call from the Cols uh as part of uh encouragement from the Menure family to speak to us about the needs and and issues that we have. uh we felt that was kind of an answer to prayer for for us for uh because primarily the development as it's been

talked about this evening uh relieves those two biggest issues that we've got. Um uh the cobs have been very um open with us and uh very willing to uh discuss our needs and limitations and uh we feel that they've in uh helped incorporate uh solutions to those into the problem as well. Uh we do want that direct access onto uh I always called it South Perry Kate, but I guess it's going to be called Dyer now. Um but we want that access there and be able to get to that light. Um because we do have uh that backup that occurs and and a lot of dangerous uh traffic uh incidents occur um people uh entering and and leaving our property. Um, we also look forward to maybe someday when uh not only can we uh exit especially to the west out of our property uh using a stoplight, but um you know perhaps people will be able to get to that uh eventual connection down into Dire Road um and be able to get off of Ben on entirely as well with future development down in that direction. Um and of course we would uh tap into the sanitary uh sewer as quickly as we can. So just want to uh voice our support as an organization. There are other members of the congregation here as well uh including our current board chairman um if you need any other questions from us or issues from us.

Thank you sir. Thank you. Anyone else? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, through nothing but the truth in these proceedings from the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Renee Hanky. I'm at 25 Rouse Court in Wville. I'm also on the Wville School Board of Education. Um, as many have already said, the schools are at capacity. So, we're looking at not only just Timberland, but we're also looking at South Boon Trail and Stone Creek. Stone Creek is on the other side of um Stone Meadows um right there on Highway Z. These schools are at capacity. That is not including postfarmm and the other neighborhoods. Those will all funnel to these schools. So with being capa o over capacity, what is going to happen is we're going to have much higher classrooms. Right now we have upwards of 30 children in one classroom. So that's going to increase. And I'm sure you're saying, "Well, you can read boundary." And we are talking about that. But what you're going to find is you're going to have kids living next to Timberland going to a farther out school. We already have that with Stone Creek with Stone Meadows. All of those kids go to Boone Trail. Even the kids that live next to Stone Creek. I really, really implore you to consider how this affects our children on their education. We can see our scores are already declining and I think that this development is a contributing factor among others but we are going to continue to see overgrowth. We're going to have higher classrooms and then those kids won't get the needs that they are needing for their education. So I just really implore you to think about the schools and how this infects our future children. Thank you. [Applause]

Now you got to get the stopwatch again. Do you saw me swear or affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Rose Zuk, 8007 Oak Grove Court, Oak Allen. Go ahead, ma'am.

Um, I really appreciate and the amenities that we're going to give this subdivision is wonderful, but why would the PNZ agree to a 7,000 square foot lot, but I think he mentioned a variance to 5,000 square feet. Will that even give you room to put your writing board for your lawn? And as everybody already mentioned with the um the traffic, I'm not sure and I hope you guys vote no for this. As small as the units are or the land land itself is going to be, that's I understand that some people don't want yards anymore, but this is a rural area. Why can't the PNC suggest to the builders one acre, three acres? That would have been a beautiful spot to do three acre lots. So that's all I had.

Thank you, ma'am. You solemnly swear our affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings are the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Name is William Lascowski, 12 Pimmen Ridge Court, Defiance, Missouri. Go ahead, sir.

A longtime resident of St. Charles County, driven all these roads here and obviously the traffic is the big concern that has been expressed here tonight. I've heard the presentation from Bolts. I'm also a member of Emanuel. I should get that out there, too. So, do we have a self-interest there? Yes, we're going to benefit. And I think part of the big benefits to echo what Tom had said before, we've got a safety in and out children with the school. It's going to help a great deal. And I think we look at this um as a congregation in maybe a more long-term way. Um is is Highway N going to get improved? Yeah, it's going to get improved. Uh exactly when? I think based on what we've heard earlier today, they're working on it right now. don't know when all of that funding is going to come through, but obviously it's a clear-cut need and I believe MODOT's going to come through and do what's necessary as everything develops. I come from the south there having uh the connection from deal and the roundabout that's proposed off of Highway D. I look at that as a way to offload Highway N eventually. That's what this arterial road will do. So, um when we look at that, it's it's more from a long-term perspective. I think this actually will help traffic long term when all of that's in place and everything's going to be good and it'll help us to serve the wider community that we would like to serve because of all the new development that's happening out there. I would urge approval of both of these actions tonight. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. [Applause] Anyone else? You solemnly swear or affirm that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Arie C. ACO, County Public Advocate, mailing address, PO Box 1535, Inoofalling. I want to first off by starting to say according to the application and staff's diagnosis of this application, it's 520 dwellings. They want a density bonus of 15%. Give me a break. It's about citizens over profits. In my opinion, the city of Wsville has received lots of email, lots of phone conversations with city officials. There are concerns with the city of uh Wville over traffic, use of high density, and use of a free pass to developers using the bonus um uh bonus uh entity or bonus amenity of the county codified code over capacity of schools. You heard directly from a school board member. I'm here to tell you that she's correct 100%. The 2030 envision St. Charles County land use plan supports lowdensity residential and land use providing for single family housing not to exceed four units per acre. This is far exceeding the four units per acre. Verification that the ordinance 10y4 is in my opinion invalid and has expired and can be challenged down the hill at our county circuit court building. There has not been provided a traffic study uh or any analysis by county highway department or Missouri Department of Transportation. I had a conversation today with the leaders of the St. Louis region and uh there's a lot of questions to be answered. In my opinion, we're putting the cart before the horse as Commissioner Baker stated and you need to table this because that's the first stop is the traffic

study. motor vehicle access opportunities. The plan does not document if both churches are agreeable to allowing access to their respective property to allow cross access and to allow additional points of traffic uh ability to reach the signalized intersection at Prairie Cape Boulevard. Now, from the Winsville School District on September 4th, a letter, schools are to capacity. Liberty High School is exceeded the population allowance. Timberland High Schools exceeded the allowance. Elementary schools have exceeded the allowance. Safety at Missouri uh Missouri highway end with children and pickup of the buses. The Wville Fire District in a letter dated October 8th. Some similar concerns that need to be considered by the commission, but you never really talk or debate about those correspondents from our partners. Do not use plan unit development known as PDU. Uh this is a free pass. lacks of conditions over residents of the neighborhood. No special def uh no special in my opinion deficiencies of the property. They claim that there might be an obstacle with the creek in the pipeline. Well, guess what? They brought the property knowing the conditions when they closed at the title company. This allows a free pass exemptions and variances to a developer. The wid uh I ask that we follow the county code. Width of lot sign uh uh sizes frontage as low as 42 feet. Again, give me a break. Partial square footage, minimum lot requirements, give me a break. Front building line, ridiculous. Side building line, we could have fires go from house to house to house. Additional commercial opportunities need to happen here. Commercial needs to be built first. There needs to be more acreage for commercial. The rightway needs to be donated upfront as needed rightaway for

uh highway N rather than a great uh expense to taxpayers. $750,000 to $1 million needs to be put up in an escrow for the signalization rather than on the taxpayers backs. Walking of multi-use trails and sidewalks. Again, there's no traffic study. That's step one. Current cluster at rush hours. I implore each of you to go down there. Flood of emails in opposition which are part of your packet in addition to 21 emails uploaded by staff this afternoon. Your time.

I'm 10 more seconds here, sir. Strict gas line safety needs to be adhered to with Missouri Department of Natural Resources. This needs to remain R1 which is responsible and controlled growth. It's not about profits for the developer to my right, but it's uh and it's trampling the community standards and u cramming as many dwellings that you can and screw the neighborhood. I'm opposed to this development. Thank you. [Applause]

Anyone else wishing to speak? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings or the pains and penalties of perjury? I swear. Please uh state your name and address for the record. Kenton Marsh, 3249, Green Trails Court, Wville. Go ahead, sir.

I probably own more property line along adjacent to this than all but one other person here, I think. And I grew up in this area. I can't think of many farms that are still left from here to Wentzville. Both my grandparents own farms here. My whole family's been here forever. So, how do those farms look now? They either look seg segued separated up in little boxes with no green space, just chopped up in squares and a little tiny park in the corner. And it's kind of embarrassing. You can tell who really cared about their property when they sold it or donated it. And you can tell who was out to make a buck. I'm really impressed with this plan that was put up here. Tons of green space, woods, trails, lakes, more green space than needed. Nobody's being greedy. It looks great. It's not broken up into little squares that you could just postage stamp houses on. You can see where deer are still going to run across this place. It's not great, but developments happen. My family farms are all both my grandparents farms are also developed. I wish they looked as good as that. I'm pretty much the entire western property line of this of this parcel other than Clear Lake Court Road and and New Lake Subdivision. So, this probably affects me and one other person here more than anybody. I see a lot of good things that Emanuel Lutheran, it's an it's an amazing thing for the community, but it's a train wreck right now. Giving them a way out, it's going to save a life. It's a disaster right there. You give them a way out to a stoplight and we won't have

a funeral at that church probably next year. That's a big deal. Everybody's here. They're they're everybody's hyped up about the traffic. It's a mess and it's going to get fixed, but that's first and foremost. You give that church a way out. I think everybody agrees with that whether this goes through or not. So, this affects me and I'm looking at it right here in the tiny little thing and there's a lot of green space out there instead of postage stamps. So, I think they did a fantastic job. Okay. Thank you, sir. [Applause] Anyone else? Anyone else?

Hold on a sec. Yeah. You saw me swear affirm tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Uh Mark Strutton, 2567 Jackson Road, Wville, Missouri. Go ahead, sir.

So, I just want to echo what the guy just got done saying is that they did a great job on putting the subdivision together. Um, I'm from St. Giannis. Uh, father wasn't able to show up tonight, but, uh, he also kind of was on the board with being able to have that access to go over to that stoplight. Traffic's going to get bad, but at least we could make it safe in the meantime. So, I for one am for the the way they've done it. They've left plenty of green space, things like that. that stuff. I've seen a lot of subdivisions and most the time they look pretty checkerboard. This one does not. This one has a lot of culde-sacs, a lot of places to get away. You know, the five foot setback on the front. I don't know. It's going to be pretty close to a sidewalk since they have them on both sides. But, uh, I for one would echo that. It's it's a it looks like a pretty fair project and mod'll catch up. They always do, you know, but they got to have the traffic there first to start with. So hopefully I don't get shot getting out of here now.

Thank you, sir. Thank you. Anyone else? Anyone else?

You soly swear our firmly that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings from the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Paige Ahern, 7109 Whisper Creek and I'm in Woodsville. Go ahead, ma'am.

So, I'm kind of representing I live in Stone Meadows and I'm representing the children who actually are at that high school at Timberland. So, we've been talking about all of the traffic, but there is a lot of other things. You can't just look at the homes that are being built around that highway N. It's also all of the children that have to be going to Timberland and driving on that road. I was instrumental in making sure that there was a stoplight at N and Z. Perry Kate used to go all the way through. They had one stop sign and now they have two. Um because kids could not cross cross the street. They couldn't walk. One of the big problems is the buses. There's no busing anymore. They everybody has to walk to a main street. These kids have to walk really far. There is a lot of kids even if they go into this subdivision, they still have to get to school. They either get walked um to the bus stop or parents take them. The traffic for the parents taking the children to school is outrageous. And when you're there in the morning trying to get out of the subdivision, Emanuel Lutheran's coming. You have people coming from all over directions to take their kids to school. It's not even just the subdivisions that are being built on the highway N, but it's all of the people who are bringing their kids to the school. It's the high schoolers that are driving to and from. There are no side. We've talked about this before. There's no shoulder. There's no way to get over if there's emergency vehicles. It is impossible to get through. Very, very dangerous. I lived um I I've lived there for 18 years now. I've watched the development. We stopped one subdivision that was going to go in through um Perry in through Stone Meadows. Um we just need to look at the infrastructure. Highway N cannot support this. Thank you.

Anyone else? Anyone else wishing to speak? Anyone? Okay, we'll close the public hearing for P25-01 and P25-11. Ask the applicant to come back. Anyone have any questions for the applicant?

I do have one. Uh I guess to staff and you also does the plat uh meet all the current water control standards, water quality standards for the runoff detention. Yeah. Yes, it does. Um and then the the um the details will be worked in the subdivision improvement plan stage which is the next stage after preliminary plan. But the short answer is yes. Anyone else on the commission have any questions yet? See thank you sir.

Okay. Okay. The chair will bring application P25-01 and 25-11 back to the commission for consideration. Uh application PUD25-01 is a review and recommendation on a final development plan for Mure Farm subdivision. and application PRE25-11 is review and recommendation on a preliminary plat for Menure Farms subdivision. Any questions, comments about

we doing both at the same time or No, we have two different votes. What? Two different votes. the difference between the votes. Again, uh 251 is a review and recommendation on a final development plan, which is the uh the specifics of

that's the the plan development and uh 2511 is uh review and recommendation on a preliminary plat for mentioned farms subdivision. Uh both of these would be subject to uh let me find it. uh the conditions set forth in the staff report uh which is uh the variance on lot sizes, lot widths, and building setbacks as proposed in the preliminary plat and final development plan and a variance from the subdivision regulations exhibit A to allow one residential block length to exceed 1,320 ft for the S-curve portion of the looped street per section 410.480. 480 variances of the uh county code. So both of these would be subject to those uh two conditions as recommended by uh by staff.

Any questions? Councelor, do you have any comments? No, other than just kind of again on the preliminary plat, it is not to approve. It's just a recommendation of approval or denial to the council.

Yeah. So what what's different on the preliminary plat normally preliminary plat if we approve then it's approved then it goes forward in this case since it's tied with the PUD both the preliminary plat and the plan unit development go to U county council uh and that will be on their agenda regardless of our vote uh at the Monday November the 10th 2025 county council meeting which is back in in this room. Okay. So, our vote is just a recommendation. Okay. So, there we go. Let's see. I need to do the plat first.

You can do plat first. Yeah, that's fine. Okay. Okay. So, the chair will entertain a motion uh to um pass application PR 25-11 u subject to the conditions set forth in the staff report. And this is to recommend a preliminary plat for the Mure Farms subdivision. Is there a motion? So moved. Motion's been made. Is there a second? Second. Mr. Sh second. Uh, Miss Kushner, how do you vote? No. Uh, Mr. Becker, no. Uh, Mr. Shell, no. Mr. Knee Miller, yes.

Miss Bar, yes. And I vote yes. So, it's a 33 tie. It's a recommendation of denial. Yeah. celebration. Yeah. Uh next, uh the chair will entertain a motion to approve PUD 25-01. This is a recommendation on the final development plan for the Menure Farms subdivision. Uh is there a motion? So move, Mr. Mayor made the motion. Is there a second? Miss Bar made the second. Uh Mr. Baker, how do you vote? No. Uh, Mr. Knee Miller. Yes.

Mr. Kushner? No. Uh, Miss Bar? Yes. Mr. Shell? No. And I vote yes. So, so now both of these same will require a supermajority. It'll be a majority of five affirmative votes for the council. Yes.

So, since this was a uh uh did not pass, it was 3 to three. uh it will require a supermajority at the county council on their meeting on that nove uh Monday November the 5th. So it will require uh five uh five affirmative votes to approve either one of these. So that's the that's the status. So okay is that November 10th or November 5th? November 5th. Okay. Yeah. Huh? Second Monday. Monday. Second Monday.

Oh, it is the 10th. You said the 10th earlier confused there. Sorry. Yeah. Monday, November 10th. Second Monday. Now, what was the agenda? Where's my agenda? There. Okay. Next on our agenda is the approval of the September 17th, 2025 planning and zoning meeting minutes. Are there any additions, deletions, or corrections to those minutes? Hearing none, the chair will entertain a motion to approve the September 2025 planning and zoning meeting minutes. Is there a motion? So moved. Is there a second? Second.

Motion's been made and seconded to approve the September 17, 2025 meeting minutes. All in favor say I. I. Um, division updates. Anything, Robert? I don't have a report for tonight. I don't have a report for tonight. Okay. [Music] Um, okay. Well, here, let me get this paper back. You can make a motion to to to adjourn and they can hear that. Okay. Make a move to a motion to adjurnn. I move we adjourn. Second. Motion made and seconded to adjurnn. All in favor say I. I. We're out of here.

I need to sign something. I need to sign. Oh yeah. We got a man.