Regional Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Since Rich is out, I'll be chair today. So, I call the meeting to order 704. If I do that, there you go. Um, item two, agenda considerations. Um, for any changes, items are in order. I guess we don't have any there. Item three, comments and questions from the public. Uh, not related to the agenda. I understand that people in the public right now are here for item number four, which are changes to the uh, land development regulations supplement 49. Uh, that being the case, I would say we can start with the public comments. If you have comments to make, come up to the microphone, state your name, and begin comments. Kick off.

Yeah. All right. So, I'll just kick off here. Um, guide you guys where we are. So, it's been about a month since we talked about some of these. For anyone um in the audience who's sort of new to how we um talk about uh changes to our development regulations, our development regulations uh that's that big book here. Um they're also online, but this is these are the guiding um the guiding regulations for how um development can take place, small, large, anything like that in town. Um and about every year, sometimes more frequently, sometimes less, uh we'll compile a set of amendments to them. Um we try to batch them together because amendments are a process. Uh you have to have public hearings. Those public hearings, there has to be public hearings of the planning commission and of the select board. Um they require notices in newspapers. They require um notifications to surrounding towns. There has to be um uh forms that are filled out uh that the state um department of um uh the ACCD um at the state requires. So there's it's a it's a process. So we try to we can't just make a regulation as as we go along um or or make them very frequently because it does take um quite a bit of time and work even for small adjustments. [clears throat] So um we actually just came off a series of amendments. Um we call them supplements. Um and they're numbered in in in order. So the one that we just

finished was supplement 48 or S48. um not unusual for us to roll out of one and roll into another um because of things that just didn't get included for timely sickness sake. Um so S48 has finished is adopted. It was effective as of October 1st. Um the uh pieces that you'll see here are ones that are already under considerations for um supplement 49. Uh now, normally we don't roll in quite this fast. Um but we'll be kicking off town plan work um we actually already have, but we'll really be digging into that um in the next few months and throughout 2026. So, uh we're trying to get this last bit of work and bylaw changes done as soon as possible, get them started through their public hearings. um and get them adopted and then we probably won't be looking at another series of amendments until 2027 unless something really critical comes up. Um so that's where we are. Um as you can see here there is a series of changes that's they're numbered here. Um so these are the ones we're going to be talking about tonight. We actually may be subtracting one from this and maybe adding another one in the future. We have another one that's sort of come up that is sort of a timely implication um because it affects other departments. We'll talk about that later. Um they're listed here in order, but because I know some folks are here to talk about one of them. Um I'm going to ask our chair if uh she's okay if I sort of go out of order a little bit and maybe talk about item D as the first

item. You're welcome to stay around for all of them if you'd like. You can see the list here if you're curious about medical office, temporary fencing, food trucks, um ADUs, that's uh accessory dwelling units. You can you can stay and and talk about all of them. We we love having people here. Um we don't always get an audience and uh uh most of us feel that the more the marrier. Um that's why we have public meetings. Um but I know you guys are are mostly interested in item D. So, to respect everyone's time, I am going to just jump ahead to that one. Um, and that way you can make a choice for yourself if you'd like to stay. Um, I think what I'm going to do is talk a little bit about where we've talked about so far on this. So, we've had um an initial introduction to this back in April um when a uh resident of town and property owner in town uh approached the planning commission with a request for a change. That request for change is not what's represented here. Um that request was not taken up by the planning commission at that time. However, it did flag a concern. Sorry, I'm getting there. I'm going just talk while I scroll. Did flag a concern for staff that there were potential changes to the regulations that would benefit um that would be a benefit because the regulations could be more clear and they could um sort of speak to policy a little bit better because there was a hardy discussion that took place um that evening in April. So um in October had a first draft um that I did bring to that staff had drafted brought to the

planning commission um to consider. We had a discussion then planning commission did direct me to make a few changes to that um which I'll share with you and them because I've made some changes since they last saw the text. Um, so I'll walk you through this. So what you're seeing here for automobile sales is the existing definition of automobile sales. That's the one that you'd see if you opened up the regulations today and that's the one that's applied. So we talked about back in April and we're talking about it again that there's um some potential it's it's sort of somewhat loose language. We talk about two or more automobiles being sold. Um now again when you look at the definition of this this is the way that this is used is once you cross that once that happens you are engaged in automobile sales use. I think this is something that's been confusing that we've talked about here. Um but it's that is a use that you are engaged in once you've once you are active in the in the language that's part of the definition. Um but the problem that we've recognized is that there's no time limit that's associated with this two or more you know when in a year at a time at the exact same moment. Um and everybody was a little bit concerned about that. So even if two was still the right magical number we recognized that it's not the right time frame. Um it doesn't have a time frame. So, we need some clarifying language. Um, so this is the new language. I can make it bigger for you. Bear with me. Get my own eyes onto. Um,

that's probably too big. Let's do my Cinderella thing here. See if we can find the right. You guys see that back there? For the new language, would it be okay if you read it aloud? I am visually impaired, so I cannot see screen. Yeah. How about can everybody else see it too? Just just in case you want to follow along. No, still too small. And feel free to move on up, too. Even if you got to [clears throat] get up closer, I I'll get a little bigger and then I will read it. Um my reading

I'll do my best to read it. Probably the problem with reading it is that you can't necessarily see what's been deleted when I read it. Um but I'll do my best to to read it. Still in the works. Yeah. Um, it's in the middle. Let me see if I can make this even just a little bit bigger for you guys. And this is still in the works, correct?

Yeah. Sorry. I should have talked about that. I I talked about where we've been. I haven't talked about where where this would go. So, this is not yet even a public hearing. So, this is still in the discussion. We're going to chat through it phase. Um that means that there are at the very very minimum um two more meetings that would discuss this language. Realistically there's probably four um but absolutely two because there has to be a public hearing um held by the planning commission. I say realistically because they're not going to warrant a pl a public hearing tonight. So there's going to be another meeting that they would warn the public hearing and then a public hearing. That becomes two. The same thing for the select board. You have they have to hear it or review it and then warn one. So that's two more for the select board.

And that's even that's if we're not even going to continue to talk about it. I think that adds at least another one. Um, so there's plenty of time too where [clears throat] um I can show you where you can find this or get you a print out of it so you can um you can look at it closer if it helps at all. Um, and I don't know if there'll be any changes made tonight too. Um, so lots of meetings still to go on this. Um, so the draft we're talking about tonight, uh, the first thing I did, and this is something I've done since we talked about it last time, um, because there was some confusion and there was a direction to add the word use after automobile sales. So, that's something that is, um, a new word that's been added. Uh, when we do regulatory changes, there's sort of a a code that we follow. Anything underlined is new text. Anything struck through is text that's been removed and anything read is supposed to reflect a change. That's sort of the codeex um to following regulatory changes. Um so uh I'll read through uh rather than an establishment, it now says when a property um so it doesn't have to be an establishment, it's just any property is engaged in and this is new language. It's now added the advertising for sale. So, not just the actual sale. You do not have to actually sell the vehicle to be sales. You could be attempting to sell the vehicle. That's still sales. Um, so when a property is engaged in the advertising for sale, selling or leasing of four or more registered or unregistered vehicles. So, what that means, I want to slow down with the word for because for means that you've now crossed into that commercial territory. That means three is what would norm would be normal. This is what the planning commission

discussed last time and is is still under discussion. um cumulatively in the same calendar year. Effectively that means in a single calendar year a residential property could sell three or attempt to sell three automobiles in a calendar year. Um the second you hit four, you are now engaged in this commercial use which is very likely in most districts and certainly in most residential districts not permitted. Um so that number is still I think you guys were fairly comfortable with it at the last meeting but um so I've left that there um added for this new from um not last time but new to the regulations is registered or unregistered. Uh there was a big discussion in April um where uh some folks seem to think it mattered whether something was registered. So it didn't matter. Um it's um our belief that the sale of a vehicle whether it is registered or not is a sale of vehicle. Um it's also really difficult for staff to get involved in that game of figuring out if something has a registration or not. Um, so it definitely makes our job easier to not have to get involved in that. Um, added language, signage placed on vehicles is not requisite to be

considered engaged in this use. What that means is that sometimes um there can be properties that do have many vehicles for sale, but they may not put that red and white for sale sign on it. Um you can still be selling vehicles. Um you can still be advertising them. You can still people come to see them at the property. Um, if the vehicle is at the property and it is for sale, um, it doesn't matter if it has a sign on it. Um, advertisement sale or leasing of three or view fewer vehicles cumulatively. So, this is just reiterating the other point to make it clear in a calendar year shall not be considered automobile sales use. Um, that's just to try to get at I think what I heard from commissioners last time of trying to make this extra clear. It's redundant, but it's just trying to add clarity to what's already been said. Um, so I'm going to kick it off to you guys for comment at this point. Like I said, any comments from the board? So, let's just say somebody has three vehicles for sale on their property and one doesn't sell. So, they get a they sell the two and get two more to replace the two. They still have three for sale. One hasn't sold. I mean, it could I I just think it needs some clarification about if you put three up, those are your three.

So, I think it feels clear to me if you have sold or attempted to sell more than three vehicles attempted to sell. Yes. Or advertised for sale. So, that's what we added there, the advertising for sale in one year. Okay. So, whether or not it sells, whether or not if you've advertised it for sale. Okay. Okay. And you can't [clears throat] sell more than three in a year or advertise. Not unless you're a business. If you're a business, oh, right. You're an approved business in

a neighborhood. So, my only comment on that is like when it says the property, I would say residential property in there. That's my only change I would like to make on it so it's crystal clear because like I said there are properties that are commercial that are suited for it just there's no you know you want them to hear you know

even if you have like for example like the town municipality so the town puts three vehicles up for sale at auction you know cop vehicles or any vehicles you're basically restricting the use of the sale of those vehicles for the town or any other business that might be rotating inventories at this moment. Well, the town is exempt, but No. Yeah, I know. I'm just saying just as an example, but yeah. So, that's where the residential property would be more clarified and kind of deterred. But you

the caution there is that you don't want if you have say Costco. I know this sounds crazy, but if Costco all of a sudden got in the business of selling cars, they're not a residential property, but that goes through the DRB to get that conditional lease to begin with. But that's still But that still that's where the trigger is for not. It doesn't say that they can't do it. Nowhere does this say they can't do it. It says that's the threshold for being automobile sales use.

I mean, I just see it as like, you know, if you got a marina and they sell three of their vehicles cuz they bought a new fleet, you know what I mean? So, this kind of restricts a business from selling its fleet vehicles for the future or potentially restrict it or creates an issue. So if you put it as a residential property, it kind of eliminates any kind of nitty-gritty issues down the road. And but if you don't and Marina now sells 15 vehicles, but they sell boats. I mean, I don't think it would really matter. Well, Marina can't sell boats unless it's approved for Marina. You know, again, as you know, not as an argument, but just kind of like the clarification for that. That's my old lease.

But this isn't this was never intended to be just residential because even commercial properties, if you look at say this particular instance, we have the property next door, the um the American Legion. Um I don't think you want that property having suddenly six vehicles for sale out front. Um or again um I don't know just feel like something is missing in the wording for the definition of the property. Like I said it's uh that's my only

Yeah. I mean I I see what you're saying. I just don't think this is the place to solve it. Maybe the place to solve it is that um some of these other uses maybe she should be permitted an incidental, you know, type of fleet turnover or something. And would that be in like the table that breaks down all the different districts? I mean, for instance, the residential, this is where it shows up that you can't have automobile sales. It does. Yeah. Right. So, is it and we haven't proposed any changes to that. Right. So, I don't know. You're you're saying add residential into the definition.

Yeah, that's where I Yeah, that's where I kind of disagree cuz that's a definition of what automobile sales use is. Okay. And it doesn't really get into what the different districts are. It's just the definition. I get what you're saying. I just think there's a different place to solve that. Yeah. If that's a concern. Okay. But I get what you're saying like Okay. If any more comments. Okay. Um, do you want to step up to the mic? Can I speak from here? If uh sometimes we can't hear you, just speak your name and ask.

So, my name is Amy Martin and I'm a resident um in Colchester at Hillrest. Um, and in regards to this topic, my my only other question would be to circle back. It says registered or unregistered. Will that play a factor because you're setting it at the limit of three per sale? Will that play a factor in zoning? Because it's two or less unregistered vehicles per property. So, if there's three unregistered, that's a violation of zoning or um selling those vehicles being unregistered. Not

because that's currently what we're in a situation with right now is okay. So you're not talking about the sales, you're talking about like the storage, I think. Well, just in general, if you're saying that registered or unregistered for sale, three or less, if this person has three or less vehicles that are unregistered or say he has three that is unregistered for sale, that's a that's a violation of zoning as well. Yeah. So, that's a violation of two different parts of the zoning. Okay. Yeah. So, it' be like a a double violation.

Yeah. [laughter] So, I just wasn't sure like with the wording I I get where you're saying that it can be registered or unregistered, but then does it cross the line into another violation? That's that would be my only concern. Yeah, it's not uncommon for for folks who who have violations and when we notify them to list sometimes a a long litany of grocery list of of violations. So yes, if you were selling multiple unregistered vehicles, that would have two violations. Okay. Um per this.

But as for as far as like the wording for this piece, that would more than likely stay because they would [clears throat] have to be registered to sell them. However, then you just need to make sure you understand the rest of the zoning for selling vehicles that are registered or housing vehicles that are registered. The intention of adding that here was to make clear I mean it doesn't really it doesn't really change anything. It was an attempt to make more clear that just because something is registered doesn't change the fact that you're selling the vehicle. Okay.

Um which I think is an argument that we've heard not just in your neighborhood um but at other properties as well. Um there there are folks who say, "But the cars are registered. I don't see what the big deal is with me selling all of them." Um or that it's they're registered to me, you know, not to a business. Um so this is just an attempt to clarify something. It doesn't really add anything other than just a little bit of clarity of Okay. Thank you. It doesn't excuse the behavior you Yeah.

I don't know. What do you guys think of it? Is it problematic at all? I understand that was an argument that we heard. So, I think it's worth it to clarify that. But I I don't think it adds anything. So, if you think it's too much extra wording, no. Yeah. That way they don't they can't use that argument again. Mhm. Speak up louder.

I have to speak up louder. Okay. I said they can't use that excuse again when we say registered or unregistered. Any other comments? Nope. No. you guys um still okay with the the number? I think that was the the biggest part here of um I think it's reasonable. I was not at the meeting. Yeah, I know. That's

that's the one meeting I wasn't here for. specifically asking you, but um I think it's fair because I I'm looking at it as a hobby. If somebody's out there buying a car, fixing it up, wanting to sell it, it's more of a hobby than a business. I I think this threshold allows for that. Yeah. I think we also talked about like, you know, if you have a larger household size, too, and you just had a rough year where a couple of your cars just they're not suiting you anymore and it's time to turn them over. Um, okay. I unless there's any other comments. I said I think D is okay.

Sure. You're right behind the camera. [laughter] So, when it says car sales or automobile sales, does that include like if you're selling say a snowmobile trailer or an ATV or, you know, any other item besides a car? You think it's completely different?

You know, I think that's a good question. Um, I'm going to turn that over to Zach. It definitely doesn't include anything marine cuz that has its own category. Um, All right. Uh so in answering that sort of question, um the development regulations define automobile. Um so that would be the definition that would then be applied here. Definition of automobile um is a car, truck, bus, plane, plane,

scooters, mopeds, motorcycle or vehicle other than defined as equipment, marine or recreational vehicles herein. Wheelchairs and bicycles are not automobiles. So, um this would be the definition that the zoning administrator um myself would use to determine whether or not a property um is or is not in compliance with this this definition. So, probably not like a trailer. Um sounds like not even a recreational.

Well, hold on one second. this guy probably tried. So I would be good. Sorry. Yeah. So recreational vehicles and the um development regulations are defined. I can read that but generally they're um RVs. Um so they're not necessarily like ATVs or you know snowmobiles, things like that. Those might actually be in the definition of equipment. So we do have all sorts of different definitions kind of intersecting. Oops.

So probably if you had a Wnebago that would count, but not if you had a four-wheeler. Does that seem just going to keep looking? Hold on a second. Let's just make sure we we're all on the same page. Now, that said, if somebody opened up the next um what's the what's the place that sells all those? It's right around the corner from where I live. Uh the all those four-wheel vehicles and side by sides and

Land Air. That's not the one near me, but yes, that's what I'm thinking of. Um in case y'all try to go find my house later. [laughter] Um but yeah, if somebody tried to open up the next land air, you know, we're not going to that that's a commercial use. Um and we'll figure out where and how. Um but yeah, if somebody's just trying to sell, you know, their kids four-wheeler or the the sidebyside or gator that they bought to work on the farm or cuz they thought it was cool, we're not going to count that. or you know the maybe they had a little golf cart that they took up from Florida with them. Um that's not the purpose of this so probably won't count it against them. Yeah. Just to clarify the definition of um equipment, small is um it includes items like utility trailers, um all-terrain vehicles, snowmobiles, a variety of other items like hand tools. Um now just to be clear we do have um uses like Kathy was saying in the table related to equipment sales. So that is a separate use. Um it's actually not defined.

Sorry equipment sales. We do not um so that's S50 not thinking about it. That's sort of uh the definition of automobile and more definitions than you might have wanted.

Yeah. But there is a category for it. So yeah, if somebody suddenly started to sell, you know, 50 snowmobiles, um that would be a problem. But um you know, one amongst the uh the others is probably not going to be that big of a deal. for not [laughter] um for not being here for that that first one. Are you are are you getting the gist of why these people aren't here? Yes. Oh, I I was here back in April. Okay. I wasn't here

that first meeting in October when it was discussed. I just feel like I sympathize with you. I I I think their plight is that they don't want traffic regardless of what is being sold. that you're not having traffic in there. And I I guess at this moment it is automobile sales, but who's to say it's not going to change to something else? And I just I I I guess is there no regulation for traffic control in a residential area for the sales of anything? Well, I mean

the hard part that we have is we share an entrance with an American Legion. It is very tight. Like two vehicles is almost too much sometimes in that intersection. So when you have multiple people coming in and out, people that live in the air trying to just come home for a week for appointments and you've got other people that are coming in to try to see everything that he's selling. One, it doesn't look good in my opinion, but two, it's it's a hazard. It's a safety issue. We've got people trying to leave the legion. Don't stop at the stop sign. Then we've got the traffic light. You can get two cars at the max before you're trying to, you know, very carefully go around the end of that second car to come into your home. So, I I understand that it's all of Colchester that you have to consider, but especially the issue that we're dealing with currently, it's it's a huge safety issue.

Yeah, right. We certainly want to um and there are well it sounds that since you're familiar with the um the uh the issue of storage of unregistered vehicles, you're you're probably aware that we have actions underway.

Yeah. The unfortunate part is is that it's a it's a cooperative. So, it's nice to know that there's action being taken. However, the actions being taken against every homeowner in there, not the homeowner that's violating the situation. So, there it's very muddy. It's it's very difficult. So, I'm actually on the board for the co-op as well. Um, and so are some of the other members here. They're with me. Um, and so as much as it's nice to know that there'll be fines coming if this person doesn't comply, it's fines that are coming to the entire community, not to this one individual. Really, the I don't understand

state law requires us to enforce against property owners because of the way the management and land ownership is set up in this particular area. The property owner is the co-op. Um, these are footprint lots essentially. I don't know if you refer to them that way or not, but um, so the property outside of the bounds of the structure, all of the place where you're parking and driving, that land belongs not to the person who lives in the house, but to the person to the co-op. Um and so unfortunately

so if you were to find if they if this person violated it would be on them by your co-op. It is on the property owner which is a co-op which is owned by the co-op which is 44 residents. Yeah. Well that complicates things. It does. I didn't understand that before. It's good to know. Wow.

And we do have our own far rules, but we don't have police, you know. So, it's it's not that we're not trying to make you comply either. Um, our hands are just kind of tied and unfortunately it will probably move towards legal um at this at this level that we're at right now.

Yeah. I don't know how to solve that one. Yeah. Yeah. There's um it's it's unfortunate. It's much like when you have a a bad renter um who's doing something, you know, um it's it's the the landowner who who has to uh it's the property owner who has enforcement. Can we move to next item? Yeah, there's other comments.

Yeah, we're happy to keep you guys updated when this comes back. Um, I only have Huh? I have no more questions right now. I only have a contact information for Sandra. Is Sandra here tonight? No, she is not, but I put my contact information on the signin sheet again, too. So, Sure. Sounds good. I appreciate all your time. Thanks for coming. Your hard work. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for coming back. Thank you.

So with that, are we moving to You want to go back to medical office? Definition of medical office. All right. All right. So, I'm going to give you a uh Rebecca, do you want me to repeat anything since you weren't here, or do you want me to just I read through this, fine. Okay. So,

I'm just going to try to hit the highlights of anything that's changed since the last time we chatted. So, uh not much here. The only thing that has changed um I believe it was Serita who asked that um the definition um make sure that counseling services were licensed. So that has been updated. Um nothing else has changed um since proposed last time at the early October meeting. Okay. So since I wasn't here, so anybody providing physical therapy that's not licensed, like they're just doing manipulation, but they're not licensed professionals. But let's say they have some kind of certification, but they're not licensed and they're going to have people in and out, patients coming in and out for that. Is that covered?

Yeah. Or is it different?

There's there's still going to be a gray area. I think what you know what we're trying to distinguish from and I'm going to scroll back up here. um it's not necessarily lenture um it's trying to remove some of these personal services. So we have heard um you know from from from some folks actually it actually goes both ways depending on what benefits folks when they come in. Sometimes people who are very clearly medical professionals don't want to be in that category because it requires more wastewater or parking or something and they're like, "We're not really a medical office, you know, cuz

I'm not a doctor. I'm a OMD." I don't know, whatever they are. They're like, "I'm not actually a doctor." Um um but we wanted to make it clear that actually this is still a medical office. Um, so in in this we actually we do have physical therapy in our medical office. Um, so but that's not the same as like massage therapy. Um, where that might not be something that's actually treating a medical condition. Not that it can't, don't get me wrong. Um, these are things that typically might take health insurance. Um so medical office might be something that does have a licensed or even trained is not really the right word because um even your touch professionals, you know, acupuncturist or energy specialists are trained in some way um just not to the same degree that you're going to see in a medical office. So, you know, questions that we're going to ask are like, do you do most of your patients utilize health insurance? Um, you know, when when paying um that is going to be something that's very common to a medical office. Um, so it's not necessarily a lensure, but it's going to be something similar. Um, I don't think it's perfect, but I think it's going to be really hard to get something that is perfect across the spectrum.

No, I agree. Um, but there are so many so many categories out there now. There's so much. Mhm.

Um, I just didn't like that last sentence. I just feel like if it's massage or whatever, it's a physical therapist. You know, it has to be something that's curing something, it's not just, you know, it you have to come in with a problem and get treated. And I mean, that's when I think of a medical office, you know, so and that I keep thinking of a physical therapist would be the one that would would be doing massaging or whatever it was. And I don't I just don't understand why we need to put that in. I mean unless you know unless we have that somehow worded. So it's unless specialized healthc care training and lenture is required and healthc care insurance is typically I don't think I'd start putting in like energy work or other body work cuz it's probably a gazillion other things that people you know could come and say well it's not that but it's this I mean the whole purpose of this was to try to sort of set some examples Um yeah, I thought the clarification was good actually cuz my first question was are you including you know massage therapy you people can actually do from their own home but you know they could have an office uh other body work I know you know I have a friend that does you know the the tuning fork thing you know the the sound thing uh but it's not a licensed professional

so I think that kind helps clarify that it doesn't apply. And and I would never want to belittle the work of your friend who does that, but I think most of us would probably recognize it's not a medical office. Um it it it probably serves, you know, the customers very well. They probably appreciate it. There's a reason they go. They benefit from it. But I think that's why, you know, you say other body work and touch professionals, you know, say massage therapy. Maybe I should say massage treatment or something. I'm not sure. I'm thinking more like, you know, the spa Essex, you know, where you go and you relax. You get the hot stones and that's that's that's not a medical office.

Right. No. Right. Right. So that's what she's saying. Medical office use does not typically include like that type of massages take out typically. Well, these are really examples. So, but some massage limited to this therapy might like somebody could probably convince me.

I think that the key thing there is where you say uh is required healthc care insurance like my chiropractor. You guys ever want a good chiropractor? I haven't been to her in a while but she was awesome. So, my chiropractor, 90% of the work there was to see her or the other chiropractors in the office, but um she had two other professionals on staff. She had a um physical therapist, so if you had other issues that were related, um you could also visit the physical therapist. There was also a massage therapist on staff. So, um you know, cuz your body's all connected. Your spine doesn't operate in a vacuum. Um, so you could opt in um after your um session with the chiropractor for massage therapy. So if you say something like massage therapy does not or medical office does not include massage therapy whereas that was part of the chiropractor's office but that was the medical office. So it was the chiropractor.

It was the medical Yeah, it was clearly a medical office. So it's it was underneath the medical office umbrella. So those people would have to have specialized training and ex insurance would have to be accepted or any of any of the touch or I would say if that massage therapist existed on their own um I would want to talk to them and see what kind of work they do. But considering that 90% of the practice was about chiropractic services, I wouldn't even think twice. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

But it did include that chirop that medical office did include massage therapy. Best $10 add-on ever. Um, so I think that's why it says it does not typically include but a lot of offices have like ancillary professionals in there too. Yeah, you work in in the field, right? Like doulas are becoming very popular. They're only certified but they work in a medical OBGYn office but they're not. They are certified though, right? They are certified. they are now interesting.

That's a new thing. Um, we just passed a law saying that um we passed it so that Medicaid would would cover the services of the doula also. But I think typically regular medical insurance. I shouldn't say regular but like commercial insurance we cover it but it wasn't covered by Medicaid for some reason. But again, there's a service at a medical facility. So, I wonder what definition they use. Wonder if I could just stay there for a while.

Like, yeah. I wonder what I wonder how like Medicaid defined defined doula service as medical like Yeah. So, that's not even listed here, but that's good information. Yeah. Well, they had to go through the office of professional regulation in order to be Medicaid certified in order to be on the list for Medicaid to cover it. So, there's a lot of little hoops, but yeah, but they have a it's a certification or a lensure in Vermont. Okay. What else do you know what else kind of falls into that category?

I'm trying to think cuz there's a lot of Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah. Das. Wow. You know, it doesn't like the doula also comes and visits the mom afterwards, you know, really helps with the transition and nursing, you know, they have a nursing. It's not just the They rarely have their own practice though. They're almost always part of a OBGYn or other sort of get their referrals usually practice. But maybe I mean I don't know. Maybe do you see them have sort of their or maybe they're independent and have a home office. They were independent and now Yeah. Yeah. But you're not going to see like a whole office space looking for zoning permit.

No, usually. I don't think so. Yeah. Probably wouldn't spend much time in it. I know. [laughter] But that brings up I mean you mentioned chiropractor. Yeah. I would say that should be listed as an example of a medical office. I don't think it was on there. Did I miss it? I could add it. It was in my chart, but yeah, I think it should be added. So that's that's clear. So they Yeah,

it doesn't fall under the uh doesn't include like touch professionals. I don't know. Yeah, we can do that.

Yeah, Wendy, if you think of any others that Yeah. Um, I think, you know, we try to be generous with this. We're just trying to create some predictability so that more more than anything, we're trying to have predictability. So if someone comes in and talks to Zach one day, talks to me 2 weeks later, they're not getting two different answers. Mhm.

Um the clearer we can be in here, the more likely that two different people are going to get the same answer. But the other thing is certificate of need just passed to for birthing centers. So that might be something new, too. Yeah, I would I wouldn't even think twice. I think a birthing center would very clearly be a medical office. Um, they don't have one in Vermont yet. Have you heard of one coming? I think so.

Especially with hospitals like closing down the birthing such in the hospitals, they kind of need some standalone. Yeah, that one feels like it would be an easy one for me. Yeah. Yeah. But the the ones on the edge, like I said, we we do see it both ways. We see people who are very clearly medical office who don't want to be. Yeah.

And people who are not that want to be for because there may be medical offices allowed there, but the other type is not. Um, so usually they're just trying to make an argument based on what suit space that they want to be in.

And one thing I'll just add, um, Kathy's right, we don't really maul over and interrogate every, you know, person who comes in like let's see the papers, let's see your, you know, certifications, you know, we don't go through that. But it's when like an example somebody might come in and say you know I am a doctor but my practice I'm primarily on Zoom and I'm selling things to people and this is not a medical office use that's pretty gray that's when we have to start really what are we what are we doing

or alternatively um you know someone fills out a zoning permit and they have a very office sounding like or very medical office sounding name Um, but like nobody's licensed and what they're doing is more of a personal service and you're like, "Okay, well, let's see if we can figure out what you're actually doing." Um, so it's not there's there's a good amount of gray that we're just leaning into here and trying to make sure people are accounting for, you know, like we're going in and checking people's licenses, but, you know, are these people going to have appointments scheduled in the middle of the day like five each hour? you know, are the treads going to be overwhelming medical office? Probably. Um, are they not?

Maybe it's something else. Yeah. And for the most part, we're going to put more things into medical office than not because the whole purpose of having it that way is because, as Zach hinted, you know, when we start talking about traffic and parking, the reason that that is separate from a general office is turnover is going to be higher. you know, people come for appointments and leave. So the park actually the parking needs are almost lower because they turn over.

Whereas in a general office for that same amount of space, you might have people who are actually working and staying there all day. So those those spaces are filled. Um but the traffic might be higher because you have more people coming and going. Um so for the same thousand square ft of space, they have different needs. Um, so anything that's kind of appointment based, um, probably more likely to follow it to medical office than general office because of its demands. Um, okay. I guess that was the only other things add chiropractors to the list. Any other changes? How many? All right. Very fencing. I got to tell you, I thought this would be 10 seconds and done. [laughter] But if it's if it's perplexed, vexed, and maybe even irritated [laughter] a few people,

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I really thought this would just be like one of those check boxes. We should move on. So, I've almost pulled it a couple times, but I'm going to stay the course now. What started it?

What started it? Honestly, okay. So, um we had some guy come in who building a a large house um and also building a large inground swimming pool, but the whole process has taken forever. you know, it it was like one of those houses that takes like 3 years to build cuz it's just it's just it's a nice estate and um and there's contractors and like contractors contractors and it's just one of those busy sites. And he's like building the pool. Obviously not going to put my fence in yet. I want to put a temporary fence around the pool. Um can I get a permit for that? and staff member on duty looks it up. He's like, "Just temporary fence. I just don't want any of my contractors. Insurance tells me I need to have a fence. They don't want, you know, I got 30 contractors out there in a given day. I don't want them falling into this hole in the ground. Look at the regulations. Temporary." No, actually, there's only two reasons you can have a temporary fence. It can only be for snow control and erosion control. you cannot have a temporary fence to put around your not done pool. And he's like, "But no, I I need to." And we're like, "Actually, you can't get a permit for it." And it was just not no probably nobody's ever ever ever going to ask us for this again. [laughter] But I'm like, "Okay, easy peasy. I'll just put it in. We'll just check it off. Now somebody can get a permit for a temporary fence around their hole in the ground or whatever else construction.

Was it four feet or was a good size? It was like a good 8ft fence. Oh my gosh. Okay. It was a good chain link. You spend real money on this fence, but it was temporary. But to me, it's a permanent fence. It was a chain link fence. But okay. Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't I don't think I could I don't think he described it. So, this is it was like someone who was involved in the conversation. This is someone who wasn't. But um I think I do recall more details here. Um it was the type of chain link fence that is um you would see on a construction site. It's got like a flat bottom so that it kind of you could drag it around.

Okay. So, it had legs sticking out perpendicular to it. Okay. Yeah, you could you wouldn't drag it around. No, just hooked up weights on it. So, it doesn't Yeah, that kind Okay, I know what you're talking about. It's not really a chain link fence. Yeah, but like the metal Yeah, it it's portable. Anything metal with this shape is chain link to me.

Right. But chain link to me means you got post in the ground and the chain link is hooked up to post and rails. That's it. So, It's different. Yeah, it's a construction temporary fence. Okay. Um, so that's the genesis of this. Um, so while I was in there, cuz while you're in there, I was like, I'll organize the rest of it. Um, Zach and I were both talking about this and we're like, actually, the whole first section doesn't even have to be in there, but we'll leave it in there anyway because um, we're not sure we've ever seen erosion control fencing that's taller than 4 ft. You don't technically need a permit for anything under 4T anyway. But since it's already technically in the regs, it's being exempted, just left it, just cleaned it up a little bit. Um, construction fencing. That's the new one. I gave him a few extra feet. Um, right now you probably had a 6T fence. 8 ft. You need to go to the board. Can I ask that question? It seems like um number six and B seems like B covers number six. It seems like you don't need number six. Um, well, you got to read the whole thing because at the very beginning it says the falling fences and fencing materials are specifically prohibited, right? So, you you're just saying that except during construction, right? And we already have you just say that temporary fencing. We're not saying what type, but it seems like, you know,

yeah, six does add on expandable fencing would be included in the six does add on all municipal, state, and federal projects. So that's why I didn't delete it. So it does add on a little extra. Um, it would be beyond any state and federal project as well, local, state, and broad. It just seems redundant to me, you know? It just was like it's it's a fence that someone could put up for construction.

You think about it. What do you think? Well, different contractors have different types of fencing, right? Um, and number six, expandable fences and collapsible fences that might be completely different than what some contractors have. I just want to con as a construction. Well, that's why it says construction fencing up above. I the expandable fences and collapsible fences just don't sound sturdy. I don't know. So Serita, you're suggesting I'd like to know what the definition of expandable fence and coll collapsible fence is.

I think if six was removed um then expendable expandable fences and collapsible fences would then be allowed

because they're not prohibited any longer. um unless they were lumped into the limitation on construction fencing which would be you know at the discretion of the zoning administrator which you have one sitting at the table here. Um but I don't know if when you have an issue with someone with some expandable fencing in 20 years if someone's going to know to you that that is not allowed. It's almost like it's a lot of double negatives here the way it's written. But that's what I felt like. It is tough. Yeah, we had to start. Why don't you just think about it and just unwind it, you know, talk to someone.

Well, I guess the way I'm picturing it right now, that discussion, if someone put a construction fence somewhere on their property visible from the road and it's not for construction, that's not allowed, right? That's what they're trying. That's what that's saying. But if you had that same fencing around a construction site, it's allowed. You just can't put that kind of fencing up as your decorative fence, right? But why wouldn't be um why would the cover that I think that came from their discussion with the person with the pool planning to put a temporary fence.

Yeah. So I I concur with what Zach said. So there's a little bit extra here. So, it just talks about sort of all expandable fences and collapsible fences. Um, if you remove that,

they're no longer prohibited. Expandable fences around construction sites any kind. So, again, you have to unwind it because it's almost like having some double negatives. Um, so the way it's written is they're prohibited expandable fences and collapsible except during construction. If you remove that, there's no longer anything that says that expandable fences and collapsible fences in general in the broad category of them. There's nothing that remains to say that they are prohibited. So probably best to leave it. We don't have people coming at us often. It probably is the type of regulation that gets used once every 10 years, but at least it's in there.

It brings up an interesting uh discussion. [laughter] I mean, it just seems redundant. It's not like a big deal. It's just it just was like, "Oh, I can have expandable uh fencing if it's around a construction." And then it's just like temporary fencing meant to prevent access to an active construction site. But it doesn't list all the different types of fencing around the construction site, but it's not a big deal. Yeah, I think that's up to the contractor what they have. But what what comes to mind? I I think I'm thinkation for a food truck. [laughter] I have pages.

Okay. All right. So, one more comment about the fences. I have seen some people put expandable fencing in their yard for like pets. Does that fall under that description? Kids. Well, hopefully. I'm not going to say I didn't want to say kids with pets. Hopefully the 4 foot and under thing cuz they're probably not putting up pets. something that it could be it someone could be putting a expandable fence that you see on a construction site on their property to contain their pet.

Maybe we should maybe this circles back to what Serita said. Maybe it should just be removed. Well, I don't think it should be removed cuz I don't think you want to see someone putting that fencing up as their property fence. It's unsafe. It falls apart over time. I don't think that I think I think you still want to prohibit it except at construction sites. If it's in somebody's backyard and nobody sees it, I don't think it's a big deal.

Yeah. I don't know. This is supposed to be my easy item. Just to clarify. [laughter] Just to clarify, Rebecca, because you've referenced expandable fences at a construction site, is there a reason why they would only be allowed at construction sites for municipal, state, or federal projects? Is it a budget item? Or for municipal, state, or federal projects. Oh, it says there's a or there. Yeah. So if a municipal building wants municipal, state, and uh federal projects kind of overrule. Yes. So we could have all the pets in the front yard. I know what I'm doing wrong. [laughter]

You can bring in your fencing and your and your dog. And your dog. People get creative. That's all I'll say. All right. Any uh any directed changes here? No. But I want to know what the loop on the bottom of the chain fence is. What is that? The top. They don't want on the top. The one where the the the little Yeah. You don't want the cut points like that. Okay. You want that to be woven the top. They're always at the bottom. Um Okay.

I have one comment on 5C. This it just doesn't read right. Snow control period, right? Such fences shall be allowed from November 1st through to the following May 1st. It doesn't read right. November 1st through to the following May 1st. It's not a sentence. It's just not a sentence there. I wasn't trying to like totally overdo my predecessor's language. But anyway, but even Google, it should be cleaned up a little.

Microsoft agrees with you. They underlined it. [laughter] That's a grammatical recommendation right there. I But it's also not a sentence. So I know I get what you're saying that you don't want it to be like May of 3 years from now [laughter] from November 1st. Yeah. Should from from November 1st to May 1st in a single year. Yes. Good.

Microsoft concurs. [laughter] Okay. So, 5C fix. Okay. It seems like there's something else, but I can't think. um to me first.

Asking me, has anybody seen them in Colchester? Do people use them? What? Snow control fences? I've seen you seen them here. Yeah, I just recently I've seen them in the region. I don't know that I've seen any on uh Miles Bay. Person put them on on their property last year. Oh, farms. Huh. Do they work to a certain extent? I mean, it's blowing wind and snow. It it stops it for a little bit. Yeah.

Doesn't get too overwhelming. Uh there was another one in 5D. Okay. Again, it's just where it says none of the fence types specifically listed in A through C shall require a building in zoning permit. Is there N in there? It should say building and zoning permit. Okay. Could catch. Okay. That was it. There's other one there. Okay. Now we go trucks. Is that nice?

What? You'll probably be here for easy on me. [laughter] Actually, Zach and I spent like an hour and a half, two hours on this today.

That didn't even include my time beginning to review and strike, you know, parts of it. Um, I close it. I think I did. So, uh, we're going to go right to the horse's mouth on this one. Yes. cuz we've already made a lot of changes. So maybe we made some of the same changes as you. Maybe we messed up your changes by changing things [laughter] that you wanted to change.

What are you into now? Wait a minute. That wasn't in our package. Nope. This is the um Ah, this is me pulling back curtain. This is the S49. So we should store what you sent us. Well, don't ignore it. Okay.

But this is the updated version. But I couldn't send it to you because we updated it at 4:30 today. Uh what what section is definitely going to have to blow that one up. I can't read that one at all. Yes. End of 10. resisted all the urges to put a picture of a food truck in here.

So, since I missed that meeting in October, are we having issues with food trucks? Yes. They make them hard to get. This is the whole purpose of this. So,

um let me make this bigger. The whole purpose of this. So, please keep that in mind as you read through is to make them easier because right now there's two main problems. A they're challenging and B they're inconsistent because um sometimes there are sites that have other issues going on um or they have a historic um site plan approval that went with them. That was sort of let me just say we have a very very good DRB right now. DRBs of past have been sort of more the good but more like which way is the wind blowing today? Um we think you shouldn't have seating so you shouldn't have seating. 2 years later you can have seating. Uh 3 years later, we didn't talk about seating. Um so there weren't really standards. It was just sort of like evaluate on the fly, which has led to some very inconsistent sets of site plans for food trucks or for properties in case food truck doesn't want to locate them. Um so Bri Fries, everybody knows Bri Fries. Everybody hates us over Bri Fries. It's not my fault. Um so the old Bri Fries site. um is a perfect example of this. So um that one for example is a small property uh way back uh at a date that I can't even think of

no much earlier than that. The original approval for Yeah. So there was you were talking about the one there um East Lakes Shore Drive. Yes, East Lakes Shore Drive. Sorry. There was several different several food trucks there.

So it's very first approval for a food truck there. Um was oddly specific on some some things and didn't speak whatsoever to some other things. Um that site plan has stood the test of time. Nobody's ever changed it. Um so that means that everything that was associated with it has had to carry through. Um and that has created issues for people who wanted to locate there. Um so this is an attempt to say all food trucks no matter where they go are to follow same sets of rules. No one set for you and one set for you and one set here and one set there. Um we're going to talk about it up front. You guys are going to decide what those rules should be. Okay. Um Siri's like, "Oh, I decided I wrote it all up. Here are all the rules that I want and don't want." Um but the point of this is to set that all up so that hopefully it's a matter of walking in and saying give me a deck permit. If everything is so clear up front, it doesn't have to go to the DRB. It goes to Zach or me or Emily or um whoever is working up front and it is so easy and quick. Um because you guys have already decided and we don't need a a DRB. As lovely and wonderful as they are, they don't need us to figure it out. So that's why there's so much text here. Um, please know there's very little in this that I feel married to or just be like, "Oh, thank goodness cuz I destroyed it." Um, but there are certain things that I may just be like, "Okay,

be cautious of this because" cuz we're trying to think of some real world examples. So, um, so I will sort of throw some flags out there on the on the play if necessary just to just to let you know in case um there's some real world examples there. So, walk through this slowly, but do keep in mind that those are our intentions. Um, so already brand new since you saw this, I called the mobile food vendors. Zach and I talked it through and at his suggestion at his good suggestion uh we've changed it to mobile bubble food units um gets away from the person and talks more about sort of a vehicle or space that's being used. So uh so that's the first thing you'll notice that's changed. Um I'm not going to read to you. You guys are all capable adults. Um, but I'm going to ask you first, uh, starting with the definition 1016A comments. I don't think anything in here has changed since what was in your packet.

Okay. I just don't think it should be restaurant because I think restaurant implies that you come in and sit down and someone waits on you. I don't know if it's eery, but I don't It's not a restaurant. Yeah, Zach, what do you think? I think order cooking operation. I thought about this a lot and I think the reason I left it.

Um, so short order restaurant is what was is what's used in our current definition. It's also used in a couple other towns nearby cuz I didn't love it either. The reason I left it other than those reasons cuz I'm like somebody must have figured this out smarter than me. um is also that it allows us something to fall back on in terms of any traffic generation because that's a real use in terms of like wastewater needs. Um and so that's why I use the word short order restaurant because it's something that's in place if we need to calculate those things. I know it kind of reads funny like I I get that But most restaurants, you know, have sit down and they have restrooms. So I I it's not like you couldn't explain it when someone comes in, which is fine. I just thought it might someone might come in and say, "Yeah, I want to have people sitting in my food truck. I want to have a food truck big enough so people can come and sit and and I have a bathroom in there, too."

Yeah, I get it. It makes money to me. Okay. But yeah, if you're fine with it, I'm fine.

It might be worth um reviewing the definition of short order restaurant. We have to do it now, but um it doesn't actually talk about the building and it does more talk about the type of food that's sold, the lack of um sit down, you know, options. I think to kind of just echo a bit of what Kathy was saying, it I think provides a little bit of a guard against someone um say maybe uh having a food truck or two in a location and offering kind of a sit down event that would be catered by the food trucks cuz that's not a short order restaurant use. It's not the intent of, you know, for example, what I think is really being identified here, which is that food is being served without the vehicle on the property to people coming.

Yeah, I just want to say I totally totally 100% get what you're saying. Um, but hopefully it sort of makes sense that it's just a little Yeah. And I think what we try to do is reuse words and phrases that we already have because it allows us to fall on them when we need to for certain things like traffic generation and parking. And so when we say what's the parking that's needed for a mobile food unit, call it a retail establishment, that's a different use. That already is a real use. It's a bait boost. I mean it can be anything from a grocery store to whatever else

a retail food. Yeah. Establishment and it covers multiple uses of a definition or term that's used throughout the regulations. Yeah. I don't have a problem with the restaurant cuz you're serving food. You're preparing and serving food. You're just not, you know, you're just not providing the space for them to sit down and and eat. They have to take the food and go to a picnic table or take it home. Still, it's still it's still a restaurant to me.

Okay. It's just I just didn't know in in any of the wags there's another name for some something. The restaurant is where you sit down and have a meal and a waitress come over or you go up and order, but you have a place to sit in the space. But if that doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter to me. Anything else on the definition? No. Okay. So, to be clear, I want to focus on that last one. So, this is not intended to apply to Mr. diggling cuz he's mobile,

right?

Okay. Um, so he rarely parks and if he does it's on select events like right for the 4th of July in the park or something like that. So this is distinct. So that's what that last sentence is intended to say. Um, okay. Mr. Dingling is a peddler. He's a peddler. and he would get a peddler's permit and he would not have to go through this process. The idea is that these would not get peddler's permits. Separate the two. Um, okay. I'm going to move on to B. Um, and before you guys give me your comments, I'm going to point out some things that we've changed.

Wait, did we already go through waste water? No. No. Okay.

Why do I have a blue block? I get Whoa. Hang on. Almost there. Okay. Waste water. So, um, Zach updated this. So actually uh we'll fix this before we go to any sort of public warning. But you can kind of see um everything that is you should like is sort of Zach's edits today. We added number two. Oh, we added number two. Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. Um, so number two was meant to get to something that we kind of hint at but didn't make as clear as we could have. Location. Thank you. Uh, mobile food units are permitted only on lots which are nonresidential. So you can't The idea is that you can't go park in this um permanently. you know, this doesn't mean that Wendy can't have a graduation party

and uh you know, have it come that that's that's a temporary thing, right? So, you can absolutely do that, but it cannot set up there for the 6 months. You cannot have it set up in your backyard. You cannot have it set up at um you know, Fezant Woods um or um you know, Wall Street. Um I think that's unlikely, but um but that's the idea. Um how about a vacant lot in a residential?

Sorry, a vacant lot. Yeah. So that's why we say in use and zoning designation. So um no, you cannot go into a residential zone um and set up there. Um so consider mobile. [laughter]

No, we cannot set up um South Street. Um yeah, that's probably I'm giving you very terrible examples. I think those are probably better examples, right? So um or vacant lot, you know, in um you know, in let's look at the fort for example. Uh that's kind of a mixeduse district, but there are some residential uses, residential lots there. um it would not be allowed on those. But um if there is a commercial property there um what's that equipment like or Vermont Public Radio or it's terrible spots all the way in the back but um yes that would be a permissible location but not the Champlne Housing Trust building in front of it. um even though they have an oversized parking lot, for example. Um I think more likely a parking lot.

Yeah. So that's what number two is intended to say. Um okay, I like it. You know, there are some vacant lots that are in the residential zoning part of um East and West Lakeshore. Oh, the grass fries. Don't worry. That's actually LS1. I was going to say, is that residential there or is it cuz it's LS1? So, that's um a non-residential district or mixed mixed. Yeah, it's a mixed use district, but leans more non-residential.

Yeah. Okay. But for example, down the street there's um a couple places that were historically nonresidential, non-conforming, but they are in a residential zone. So, there's some long vacant businesses down the street there. They would not be allowed there. But the business as is stays there until

Yeah. Yeah. So, the idea is that you you can't necessarily even go to a non-conforming place. Okay. Wastewater. Um, this actually mimics a lot of what is currently and consistently referenced in um applications. So, you have to show that you have some sort of way to dispose of your waste water. Now, food trucks actually produce more waste water than you might think. Um, not same typical way, but

they wash their hands. Yeah, they're washing their hands. They've got wash their food. They're washing their dishes. Um, I don't know what kind of connections they have for grease traps. If that has anything to do with wastewater system, I don't know. Uh, I don't know who even issues them. I think it's the wastewater department, right? Um, freeze truck permits. Um, so that's going to be critical. If you are unable to get that, it doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot have a food truck on the site, but it might mean you got to pack yourself up and figure out how to dump that every night. Sure.

Um you can't. We don't want um Duffy's dumping to come pump you out every week. That is not going to be allowed. Um that is not good for neighbors. Mhm.

Um, that is just not something I think unless you want to support that, that's not something that would be allowed under this. You either are able to dispose it properly on site or you move every night and you have a way to do it offsite. Um, it's not necessarily, like I said, new. That was a condition at um, Bryce Fries. It's ultimately what ended um that's why a vehicle had to leave eventually. That vehicle was not moving. I had no working tires, no working engine. It had no waste water outside. So why some folks were some sort of mad at us? There was no way for its wasted water to go anywhere. What were they doing over there? Nobody knows. There were pipes go down.

There's only one. There is a holding tank on site that did not treat it. Merely held. Okay. Um but there was no permits associated with it or so that's the intention of three. Okay. What what about if they were within a certain distance of like um a you know a facility? What if they were like at airport park or they were at Bayside and they they could have access to the bathroom. It's not the food truck itself has water in it. They wash their hands, they wash the food, they're prepping.

They could dump that water. I don't think so. Yeah. I don't think you want other businesses to be absorbing that use cuz they're not permitted for it. They're not Well, the town. Yeah. And you can't have toilets there. Um I think we put that in here. So that's up for discussion, but um generally no. M.

So what do they do? Like what do food trucks do? They they pack it up and and dispose of it somewhere. If I There's a system, I imagine, that they capture that water and then dispose of it. I mean, because you can get a permit, right? So the permit, but that's what they changed number three to read is Yeah. Um, in accordance with the state of Vermont wastewater system, potable water supply rules shall be provided. They must obtain a permit. I'm curious what the permit I'm just curious how they what that says, but we don't need to discuss that.

Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to think of ones that are there aren't that many that actually stay fixed. Um, you know, I'm trying to think of like there's the Sausage Shack out in Essex. I don't really know what they do. I imagine that they probably have some permit or they have amended the um Essex automotive permit to account for their waste because they're sort of fixed out there. They're there a lot, but they do also tow off site at least once a week. I think they're they go to events and stuff. Um, so there is a way they can there is a process they can go through to get this permit. Mhm. Yeah. But they got to demonstrate right

whatever it is they're doing. Right. That's going to be unique to the site. Mhm.

And recently so um I've communicated with the state about um how they permit um mobile food units. Um it's sort of a gray area because they issue permits for individual properties. So basically they want to see that the waste water could be treated somewhere in the state. Um, so for some as example, if there's like a prep kitchen where someone might empty a a wastewater tank to then be disposed of, then the sewer system needs to be accounted for on that property and then this property would be exempt because there's a plant somewhere else. Um if this is on a property that has, you know, a um a kitchen and it has a way to dispose of the waste on site, um they might be able to amend the wastewater permit to account for those gallons per day into that system so long as there's a plan to dispose of it correctly. Um so these that's what the states I understand them to be looking for. Um it's just they want to see where the waste water's going. Are there state dumping sites for waste water? [clears throat]

Curious. No. Um, there's a lot of food trucks out there. They all can't be going home and dumping it into their own sewers, right? Well, so I know that there's a lot of violations. [laughter] Okay. There was one about, you know, um, you know, someone disposing of waste on the ground somewhere else in a different county. Um, so that was a an enforcement case, but we're not really, we're talking gray water here. I mean, there's no sanitary. The state views that as waste water, the gray water.

Yes. Yes. But I'm I'm I'm just thinking it's it's might be soapy water, but it's not effent. No. Yeah, it's not effent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look at food trucks differently now. Rich is in here. Although he probably wouldn't spell spill secrets for us, but I know he hosts a lot of food trucks on site. Off season. Rich. Oh, okay. He wouldn't tell us though. But yeah, I think at Burlington they have the, you know, Friday night food truck. Yeah. Yeah. They come and they go. Where do they take it up? All right.

I just see them as, you know, nice to the community and I also just see them as revenue sources for the community. So, I'm just trying to figure a way. I'm trying to think of what other ones are sort of permanently fixed around the area. I don't think there's that many at all. There's not that many.

And I think anybody that has it will be like somehow tied into like a septic or has it pumped out because most like any food truck that you see anything like if you go to Jeffersonville, you know, the burger barn over there, they have, you know, portlet on site when the trailer moves around. But I would imagine that the portlet company comes and pumps them out once a week. So I mean that is something that you know plus if you're stopping by to eat probably have kids with you. I mean you got to you know I mean I haven't seen the movies road on the portlet as far as not allowing it on site but I think it's kind of it's kind of go hand in hand especially if it's a if it's a weekend deal or if somebody's hosting it for like a week. I don't think it's a I don't I don't know know how you can obtain a permit, you know what I mean, in time or if you're just kind of bouncing between locations, but you know, if you're doing an event here or there, you know, for 2 days or a day, I don't I don't think anybody's going to draw a permit for it.

Oh, I think the idea is they wouldn't have to for something. Yeah, but this is this is more like semi-permanent for like 6 months or seasonal. So I think that's yeah obviously has to be waste water provided or fresh water or whatever the lot is. But you're you're saying that you could have two portallets. Let's just say permanently. Well that look too question. Well, I'm just going to be dumped into the portal,

but I think it's more like it kind of goes back to our discussion. I think there's like more food truck and like semi-permanent structures. So, you know what I mean? That are on site for the season. So there I think most of the food trucks are more or less catering like you know going to the lady park on Fridays for a day or doing a wedding or event you know what I mean but they're not like three fries was in the corner here you know so I don't think there's the same kind of like outlook for what food trucks are I mean I think this is more like a semi-permanent you know restaurant establishment or seasonal restaurant definition of a food truck because the food trucks now I think are more,

you know. Yeah. I mean, I I had a tenant that would do events. He had a food truck business. I mean, he would do two days max, you know, for the prep on it. So, and yeah, I I I see some food trucks being more on a seasonal basis in one spot. You're seeing them popping up in parking lots. Yep. All over the place. And they're there for the whole season. You know, they may go one week and away if they're trying to cater or something, but thinking the barbecue guy will do that. But you're seeing more and more setting up in parking lots. Yeah. They had that donut the doughnut truck in Essex for a while before they went more. They had that barbecue place in Essex.

Yep. As far as culture, what locations do we see where it's like a semi-permanent seasonal food truck that actually pops up to where this is an issue? As far I don't know if it's an issue, but I think it's something like Serria said, it's something maybe we can encourage. Yeah. I mean, airport park, I mean, I just people thousands of people go through there all the time the causeway or Well, that's it its own thing. I mean, I don't think you're ever going to see anything permanent in there for the I don't think you'll even see anything seasonal in there. No. The only two places I can think of was but on private land was the East Lakes Shore Drive all sorts of things.

There's some other properties on West Lakeies have their Michigan dogs. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I know. [laughter] Miss it. Yeah, there was one where where the se street is basically in that area. Yeah. Well, that's the panties. Yeah, they were there for a long time, right? Yeah. Oh yeah, forever. Um there's also been a variety of hot dog sales people now. Yeah, love the hot dogs.

So I I can see it popping up maybe other places. We we can't foresee the future here, but I mean we can kind of encourage it, but can I This is totally a little bit away from food trucks, but there's a snack bar airport park around the back. We used to be where they sold food or baseball games and stuff like that, right? Yeah. So, um I think that's though. I think it was like chocolate bars. It wasn't hot dogs and stuff like that. I think it's just like candy. I'm just wondering how we did that restaurant. They have it at the high school, too.

Food at airport park. You see thousands of I see like dollar bills like flying like seals away to Burlington. Could be your next mini. [laughter] It was nice having the fuchsia at the craft thing the other day at the rec center. At the rec center. Oh, right. That was awesome. But again, that was very temporary. Yeah. And for something like that, that falls under our definition of But I can see 10 days or 10, you know, we don't give people a hard time about that stuff, but

there's big parking lots in Colchester. I can see it going on and Price Chopper. That whole parking lot is never used. I mean, there's a coffee truck here. Is she done? Is there a coffee truck? There's a coffee. Coffee truck down the road. Where? At the uh the plaza at the corner of Blakeley Road and Central Drive. There's a bank. Pickled Perch. Really? They had a good small you you don't know she's there unless you're looking for her. Good job. She was going to do less than 10 days, right? I think she did her less than 10 days. So, it's like we moved on. I think she was feeling out how it would work for the business. I see. Missed that one.

Just to clarify as well, we do get a lot of calls from people interested in Oh, wow. opening food trucks. And then we have to tell them, well, you need to get a conditional use permit. And um it'll be 3 to 6 months and it's only in a few locations in town and usually people and then they cry into film and uh So are you saying that making doing this section here would help that process? Doing this would hopefully cut that down to 2 weeks or so.

As long as it would take you to get a check permit maybe. Unless again there's real parking issues. So, if somebody came in and said, "We want to put this in the Jiffy parking lot." Jify that. Yeah. Jify. And I'll be like, "I don't know, guys. That place is tight already. We're going to have to talk. I need a parking plan." Which we're going to get to. Okay. It's in there. All right. So, that's Can we think about So, that's town own land. So, that's another issue.

Yeah. So that kind of like like eliminates having the wastewater plan kind of eliminates like 99% of locations where you can possibly have it because if you don't have a wastewater plant, you can't just have it in a rice shop parking lot because it's temporary. But they could move off site every night or they have a tank that they can move off site. They have to have some they have to show us Yeah. a plan. And their plan cannot be to not have a plan

or that they're going to run some hose down the back across the lawn to, you know, to somebody else's or to have a truck come pump them out and the neighbors call us about the sewage smell. And I think that's what we're trying to clarify. Is it sewage or is it just gray water? It's just gray water. They hopefully you're not. It's gray water. You can pick yourself up. [laughter] Yeah. Sewage is I keep going there too when they don't want to. There's no there's no bathroom on a food truck. No. Yeah. Right.

But the other thing you also got to think about again is um these trucks need to be getting grease trap permits. Grease trap permits. So a lot of these trucks, not all, but a lot of them will have fried components um that grease needs a treatment plan. So, these are things they should be thinking about no matter where they go. Mhm. Even if they're mobile all the time, they need to figure out what to do with all this waste water. So, the people that do call you, they're usually in the business already, correct? Uh, yeah. I think it would depend. Yeah.

Some people, you know, are like, "Oh, I've got an idea." Yeah. And some people are like, "Oh, I already have a setup. I want to know. I'm thinking of places I can go next summer." Talking to property owners in Colchester. So there's kind of two different because I should think they would know there's a regulation for that. Well, that's the only thing I have a question about is you know the last part saying uh food last sense mobile food units without adequate on-site wastewater disposal may be required to remove the mobile food unit from the site on a daily basis. So on-site wastewater disposal might be a holding tank. Yeah.

That they can take and dispose of properly at the end of every day or week. I don't know how long you know how much it holds. Wouldn't the department of health like if they're inspecting because they have to inspect the area where the food is prepped. So, I mean, I'm assuming that they have to demonstrate that they can clean the area, you know what I mean, where the food is getting prepped or coat. So, they kind of entail that the food truck has a wastewater system on board holding things to begin with before they should probably fill it truck to begin with probably. So, I mean, as long as they're certified to the green, then I guess it doesn't really,

but again, this is just putting on notice on them to show that to give us a plan. Okay. Um, I know that a holding tank was not sufficient for rise fries. Uh, per the state, they did not deem that sufficient. Um, because it was semi-permanent or because it was a holy ground. I think a lot of had to do with failure rates. Um, no ability to treat cuz it was in ground. Right. It was in ground. Now I'm thinking of a portable tank that has to be physically removed and dumped somewhere. Yeah.

I'm definitely not an expert in that at all, but I'm just trying to think back. That was several years ago, but I think it was the idea that it's it's just holding and um potential for leakage and I don't know might be going to a lake. Could be going to the lake. All these are actually problem for that particular property. All of these are going to be forced to be removed anyway at least in this area. But people are doing it. There's a lot of food trucks, right? So somehow there's a system that they're they're using. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I would love to talk to somebody.

Me, too. And learn about it. Maybe we should learn a little bit more, but maybe they can go a week. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know either. I think it's good that you have in there the state of Vermont wastewater plable water supply permit. Uh if we learn something else, we can add that in there. But I think that's a good start. Me too. Okay.

Seating. Okay. Several people have asked me now like why 16? Where'd you come up with this? Okay. So 16 is extremely common across the industry um for food trucks. These are not meant to be again these are temporary places that are supposed to be more focused on the truck. These are not necessarily supposed to be these huge outdoor areas that are consuming a large space. Um so 16 seems um fairly adequate to serve a fair amount of people without um I think there might even be some connection to wastewater somewhere. I don't I'm not an expert. Somebody maybe told me that once. 16 might be some sort of magic number.

Interesting. I cuz when I read that I was thinking of Brigantes and I know they Huh. They had Whoops. They had at least three tables that sats six each. At least six each, maybe even more. So they had at least 18, possibly 24. And then there's a food truck in Burlington um over where the Barge Canal Market is. It's back behind there. They have their own sitting area, picnic tables set up there. I think there's at least four tables there that sit at least six each. So 16 is what Willist and South Burlington use. Um I didn't look at Burlington's. I don't know if they have a number at all. You've been to South Grand aisle. There's the uh I always called it the red. There's a red

rest truck. Rest stop. That's it. They have a huge sitting area. They [laughter] do. Which one's this? The rest. Yeah. Oh, no. I've never heard of that. That's got to be a totally different thing they have going on there, I guess. I don't know. They They have a little bar and everything in the back. Yeah, that's quite the thing. Sounds like it's quite the thing. Like 100 people could sit there. Yeah, maybe not much. But yeah, you can overlook the lake. It's really nice. It's beautiful. Are you feeling like it you guys feeling like it used to be a different number? State says 16 for the city. The state? Yeah, the state requirement is 16. Oh, you found that?

Yeah. And it says uh for the the fresh water and the waste water, [clears throat] it's 30 gallons of fresh water and 35 gallons of waste water capacity. It's on their website for the mobile foods. Oh, so they they set a limit. They they say at least that basically it says onboard water supply must be kept you know the water temperature and it's uh it says there's a for push carts and mobile units and it also talks about seating. It says seasonal operations can have up to 16 outdoor seats. Oh

yeah. And formability says uh mobile food establishment must be capable of being moved at any time. There can be no porches, steps, or other structures attached to. Let's just go with that. Maybe picnic tables. I think as long as you know you you do a face value seat count. I mean, I'd be generous and what counts as a seat. I like a big seat. [laughter]

Um, so 16 seems to match. So, I mean, it comes from something. You go any more, I think you're probably into waste water. I bet you actually have to buy waste water at that point. You probably can have more than 16. You probably just have to buy capacity. I'm going to bet that you can have 16. But if there's no toilet facilities, what what are you adding to the waste water [cough] portable water? I know, but it's just a food truck, though. Gray water counts the same as black water. Well, okay. Let's say

you've got a food truck. You have 100 people coming for the whole day. Let's say that's a hundred people. They're come and go or they can come and sit down. What's the difference? Stop trying to understand the state. Um just Well, we can leave it at 16, but I I'm just surprised because a lot of places seek more than 16. Just to clarify, Vladir, I think I found the same thing that you found, which is from the Vermont Department of Health. Correct. Okay. So, it's not So, waste water is regulated under the Department of Environmental Conservation, right?

And this document does point prospective mobile unit and push cart uh owners to um the Department of Environmental Conservation for wastewater disposal. This just relates to on-site capacity of like like in the vehicle, how much water and storage you need in the truck. Yep. Oh, you found 16 seats, too. They have everything on the stock. But why would water in the food truck be dependent on how many seats you have? I think it's a great question. Maybe for the Department of Health.

If there's no seats, there's still the same amount of people. These are health regulations um that include social distancing limits on outdoor seating and also requirements for you know I think their what their goals are might be different than what your goals are. My guess is they probably need some sort of threshold that says if you start to get a lot more seats you're not really fitting this definition anymore. you're something else. It's time to provide that bathroom. It's time to provide that bathroom. Exactly. If you need that many seats, good for you. But also, you're not interesting.

You're not in this definition. And you know, as you have given some examples, we all know those places. They're out there. Um, and with that many seats, you're probably not this more than 16 seats also vehicles. So, you're you're something else. You may be a great thing. You might still be welcomed into a town. You're just not this. Um, so I'll leave 16 for now. Okay. Anything else on number four?

Well, the seating area must be protected with vehicles. Did you change this one? No. By robust physical barriers or other measures. Now, that's wide open. other measures and robust. I mean, how robust can you get for a temporary seasonal site? I wasn't sure if you wanted it at all. So, temporary chalk away. No, I I I I I think you're open yourself up for what will make meet those, you know,

I think it depends on the site also. probably depending on where they're setting up cuz if you got a giant parking lot and nobody's around it that's different then there's your other measure how you're set up. Yeah. To me, like a robust physical barrier means like something you can't just walk through like string or but do you have a definition? She wants to know what robot,

you know, 25year-old me wanted like definitions after definitions after definitions and feel like Zach is seeing like the version of me where I'm just like starting to slip a little more into like, can we just write the c the common sense version? And he's like, that's not defensible. I'm like, I know. Well, again, I think of all the food trucks I've gone to, there there's no robust physical barriers. What where do you have liked one? Did you feel like you deserved one? [laughter] I never felt in danger.

Well, I think other measures could be that it's just not putting you in danger. Like you're not sitting where cars are just going to come flying through. Like for instance, like Banties have a tent. Mhm. So there's kind of a designated area in the parking which the parking was all gravel. Yes. Incident in the corner you know the north industrial out where there was a food truck on that corner. There used to be a food truck and then somebody got killed. Oh my god. Now we have what during the snow [laughter] was that this snow? I don't remember this. Yeah. This probably like 10 years ago. That's when the dump truck went through. Yeah. It was a snowy snowy day. Remember that? Yeah. It was an icy snowy day. It was no sun.

I thought so. I thought it was cuz the guy had a concussion. Yeah, but it was still somebody like so robust measure. I mean, you need one to stop a dump truck or [laughter] I don't think anything would stop a dump truck. Yeah. Where the where the John Deere place is now? Across the street. Across the street. I don't know what's there now. Across the street. I think it's just empty. Car dealership. The car dealership there. Yeah, it's quite a car dealership now. There was a food truck there. There's a food truck there cuz the hill got duck. That's right. They did. But anyway. Yeah. Uh All right. Well, we've talked we've mentioned a few example food truck areas today, so think about them.

Mhm. What do we got? So, you mentioned one near the barge. I'm not familiar with that. So, how's that set up? That's what how's that one set up? The one this barge canal one you've mentioned. Um, that one the parking is you have to walk there cuz the parking's further away. Okay. So, no. So, there's your other measure. Yeah. But during the farmers market, there is another little truck, ice cream truck that's right there at the driveway. There is parking next to it. It's just parking next to it, but it doesn't have seating. Let's just go up to the door window and get your stuff and go. Mhm.

I know. Ganties didn't have anything. Breeze surprise. What are you calling? I call it breeze fries. But um they had rocks, huh? I think they had rocks or stones between the road and the kind of like outlining the used to be like a horseshoe driveway kind of deal like stones or But between the the the seating area and like where the parking was, I think there was like there was some stones. I I don't remember any stones. But anyway, robust physical barriers mean something. I don't know.

It can go. I mean, I think I think in in my mind it's something that is a very nice addition, but how critical is it? You know, like I think too, this isn't a food truck, but it could easily be. There's a um there's a scoop shop up in Essex that we like um if you guys are familiar like called Sweet Scoops. It's up by the Essex Experience. Um, cute little I mean it could be a a food truck. It's a small little building and it's got the parking in front of it and um it always the only thing that always irritates me when we go there is that like the line for the pedestrians to order is like right in the parking lot. You said you've been there and like there's no separation. And they put like a sign up that says storm line this way, but people are

milk. Humans are dumb. Yeah, there's a milk can, but nobody ever goes the way they're supposed to cuz there's not really a barrier. There's a milk can, but there's no like rope. Um, could we take robust stock and just say physical barriers? Cuz it could be something that's planter. Yeah. Something that's movable. Is this It's just saying, "Hey, do you first I guess I should have asked you first of all, do you want that at all? Does it matter to you at all? And if so, I don't think it's I don't think so either. Cuz you'll be reviewing the plans anyway.

And if you see that the sitting area is right smack in the middle of the parking lot, you'll say, "Well, maybe want to relocate that." Right. I mean, Burlington does uh permits now for they're taking parking spots away. And you got a seating area where cars are got a 2x4 holding somebody's bathroom and falling into traffic. So I've heard two things. I've heard one take it away and I've two at least take away the robust part. I mean it could be yeah physical barriers or other measures. I mean, people can be creative.

I mean, we're talking food trucks, but think about any place that you've been to with outdoor seating. Think about even something like Als, right? So, you've got like a fence that separates the outdoor seating area from the parking lot and a curb. I think I thought the fence was to keep the kids inside. That's true. It's kind of nice. [laughter] Um, I'm just thinking you're trying to make this easier. Yeah, that looks like an extra step. Fair. Doing a building envelope for every mobile food court, you know, getting set up.

But maybe some barrier that's even cheap. That's just delineation might be enough to sort of put the eyes on the prize so people aren't like I think when you say barrier it's kind of assume that's you know something substantial. Keep your people safe.

[laughter] Do you want the scone? I think I threw everything out there for discussion purposes. Physical barriers or other measures I think is enough. And then as you review the plans, you can use your judgment. So whether they're separated enough and it's not really an issue. Okay. So you're suggesting get rid of just the word robust. So

I think there's at least agreement for that. So it's hard to define now visual or physical barrier cuz I mean I mean I don't know you really need to put a curving in every time. I mean you said you know not necessarily needed for that. I mean they can be able to do like temporary like the airport style whatever we can change protected to separated. Is that a little lighter? Yeah, I like that better. That that sounds good. That way if you do have a case where your seating area is like in the grass, you already separated. You don't need to add anything extra. But if you're putting the seating area

Yeah. They're in the middle of a parking lot. Then you need something. Yeah. The places must be separated from vehicles. You still want the physical barriers or other That's where you have to think of a parking lot. You definitely have to have a designated area there. people not to check. I think the other measures would be like the natural topography if it's like if you're out of sight where your seating areas like in the grass and everything else.

Okay, good with that. All right, we move to parking seem okay. parking. Uh, so we did make some changes here, I think. What did we change? Uh, number B, I think. Um, um, property. I think that's the only thing that was changed. Did that seem right? Uh there's some wording that was changed before that, but

yeah, there was there was some modifications and things look a little different. I think what you likely have in your packet is similar to like four where it's kind of just a paragraph and it's kind of broken out because there's a test um that was included here.

Looks different to me. Yeah, it definitely is different because I see the different colors, but I don't have the old version. So, you guys have any questions on just I'm just going to let you look at it. So, I'm showing you a new version. Okay. The real takeaway is that we don't want these trucks to be in spaces unless those spaces aren't needed. And sometimes that's going to be very obvious if those places are needed. Sometimes it's a little less obvious and you might have to give us proof. Um, so if you're proposing, for example, to put your food truck at Costco, you're going to have hard sale. It's not an automatic no.

Parking is tight to be parking is already tight. They already have a waiver. Costco's food court's going to like that. Yeah. I think [laughter] if you give an example of, you know, maybe a medical office since we're talking about parking needs at a medical office. You're going full circle here. Just trying to keep it relevant. So, we could have like a designated space.

You can and it can be in a parking lot, but you got to prove that the spaces that are being lost. Let me see Fanny Allen here. That's probably a good example. So Fanny Allen's like, "Look, our employees don't have time to be going far. We're we're contracting with Elgato to be the Fanny Allen lunch server. Um, and we're going to have them go sit over where all the CO testing used to be in that corner. Um, but they're going to be in the parking lot and they're going to take up six parking spots, couple more for seating area. We're going to say, "Okay, Fanny. Um, did you need those six parking spaces?" Plus, now you might be getting a few extra cuz I'm driving over there to get out. [laughter] So, you need to accommodate my car. Um, and I'm meeting my friend. Um, so show us that that can be accommodated. Otherwise, you're going to probably have to find a different spot in that lot or you can't go there at all.

Um, I don't really know that the parking situation is over there right now, but or you might have to reduce your need otherwise. um for that lot. So, you have to prove it to us. We don't want places already tight like Costco taking out 10 parking spaces for a food truck. Much as we want a food truck, they need those spaces. Now, if Shaw comes to us and says, "Hey, you want to put a food truck?" We'll be like, "Bring your friends.

Four more. We're going to start a food truck park back there." Right. Um, so that's what this is trying to say and hopefully it says it. Okay. I think the way that's written it's better than what you had before. Thank you, Zach. I agree.

Access. Okay. Uh, no changes to what you saw other than change it from vendors to units. Did you guys have thoughts? Did you had to find sufficient but I don't want to. Okay. Ah, this is intentional [clears throat] for discussion. So, you're not hurting my feelings whatsoever. Um, if you have thoughts on this. So, Zach and I talked about this too. Um, and I agree with some thoughts that he shared with me. So, um, our current definition says something about April 1st to November 1st. Um, but we actually hear from a lot of people like the coffee lady who was just talking to us. Um, outside of those windows, not not everybody is looking out those windows. They might actually not mind being set up in the winter. Um so rather than that current wind that other window maybe we say 6 months and not pick the window for them. Maybe March is beautiful and they're like hey we're ready to go. Okay. So when I did the math on this, you said six months, but April 1st to November 1st is seven months. [laughter]

And if you're saying that someone could be there to late fall, early winter, and then early spring, it could be eight months. How long do you want them there? I don't know. I'm just saying. Do you want them to be seasonal? Do you want them to be six? I only had six in my mind because the idea is that they are part-time. Six seem to me to be part-time. It's halftime. But I'm again, we could have seven, which is consistent of what was already allowed. We could have all year round if you want, although that doesn't seem

to be temporary. Mhm. Yeah. been seasonal. I mean, winter's I don't think anybody wants to be in a food truck during the winter. Maybe for a day or Yeah. There's a skating like the skating event here. It's funny though because well, a couple years ago when the burger barn bar, not barn bar bar burned down, they came in in wintertime and they never did operate it. But right, they had a vision to operate it. They had a vision to operate it and that would have been through the winter. Um Kate's food truck up in Jericho under Jericho. Jericho.

Jericho. I just saw a posting on social media that said that they're planning to be open this winter for the first time, but it'll be a different model, but that they'll be open. Can they go on the ice? They're not really a food trip, but that's not a food trip. Going out in the ice. Can they ice? They then they would definitely have to get off the ice by the time date that the fish and wildlife set. I'm just thinking for some of the derbies and stuff like that and the hockey turns. Well, they can be in the parking lot. Yeah, I don't want them on the ice. You don't want them on the ice. I think we may have had but I have no jurisdiction over the ice.

So, there was one food truck in St. Alvin's that got set up in courtyard or restaurant that wasn't operating. They opened it through the winter. It was brutal. Even though there's a wall there, it was brutal. Um there were days that they just posted that they're not open today. Um winters are pretty pretty hard. They now have their own little restaurant somewhere else, but um they tried. It's just having the customers come in a cold, windy day, it's it's hard.

Yeah. You got to think about what they're selling cuz I think the place that sold donuts in Essex, they were open all winter long. But they were selling donuts. Donuts comfort food in the winter, right? Who doesn't want a donut? And you don't have to like it. Yeah. You don't have to stand there long, right? You're at the window for like a minute. You're like, I want my six fancy donuts and then we leave. Yeah. Once you get that one person like, um, that Yes.

I say 8 months. So that way if it's a good season, call it a day. I'm entertaining thoughts. Yeah, you guys reach consensus and Well, we're trying to make it easier. Let me know when 8 months. There's no like without an actual date. So if they want to open in March or February and close early or if they leave or if they whatever. So what's wrong with having them be whenever they want? I mean, I don't understand if they want to be out there in February, what what is our why wouldn't we object to? I don't think we do, but we're I think

intended to be temporary and seasonal. I see. Okay. That that I see. Okay. But the six months did just didn't line up with what we originally had, which was the April 1st number, December 1. So I would say suggest changing to to 7 months or 8 months

consensus here I'm not a policy maker go through December. I mean I just I don't know why. I just think maybe the holidays they could do more business you know might be able to do more business but I don't I don't know the business. So I don't I don't think anybody wants to drive a blue truck in a snowstorm here. This is where you're getting thrown off, but then they don't do it. You know, they have the option, but they don't do it. I mean, if somebody came up with a great idea to open some a food truck in the restaurant for whatever hot chocolate they're seasoned. Yeah. Could that be a variance? But they can they can operate it without a permit for 10 days if they have a during the winter. So they're covered for that. Yeah,

that we can have those seem way more temporary, right? Winter months. They can be operational for 10 days without a permit. They won't let you hypothetically. Yeah, 10 days is if you're only doing the 10 days. It's not what you normally do plus 10 more. Oh, well then they get a permit for most of the time. [laughter] I don't know. I I think we can change it to either seven or eight months and leave the the season seasonal to them, whether they're winter seasonal or summer seasonal. You're depressing me when you say 8 months is a season. It is. It's called winter. [laughter]

We'll change it to seven months. I mean, six months I It shortens it to less than what you had before. Agreed. I hear seven. We got four of us here. Seven and a half. Who say who says seven? Who says seven months? 10 days. [laughter] Eight. Three to eight. Eight. Wendy. We're going for eight. Eight months. Eight months. All right. We're not even going to ask Rich because we got 40. A maximum of eight months, right? You put maximum in there.

There you go. Says up two. So that is that's a max. Okay. Up to Okay. I'm just making changes as we go and then I don't have to remember. That's cool. Okay. Um, everything else look good there? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Signage. Signage. What did you change there? Um, just units. Okay. Yeah, we talked about it a lot, but we didn't end up changing anything. Okay. Um, the hours 9:00 p.m. Well, any thoughts on signage?

That's the next one. We'll get there. You're not here there yet. [laughter] He's like, I got thoughts on ours. Any any issues with signage there, Rita? No. Okay, we're good for signage. I thought this was one that would get some thoughts. Okay. No signage thoughts. It's a lot detail, but it should be interesting. Mhm. Okay. All right. Hours of operation here.

I think it should just fall like the restaurant. You know what I mean? Hours, whatever they are. Did we discuss those last time for like a call serve or whatever? Cuz if you got like a Fourth of July and you got the fireworks or whatever 9:00, there's an example. Seems a little early. That's an exception. Yeah, you guys tell me. I wanted to put stuff out there for you to respond to.

Didn't you have somewhere where it said that it was the other way around that food trucks would normally open from like 7 to 900 p.m.? Wasn't that somewhere else in here? I'm making I've seen decisions that speak to ours and they're all over the place. So, the current definition of mobile food units says they're customarily operated between 10:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m. Oh, we would want to change that. We are changing it. Get rid of that. That's the current definition.

That's the current definition. Okay. I knew I saw it somewhere. Okay. Yeah. So, current 10:00 a.m. 9:00 p.m. Okay. That's where I saw it was the current one. Okay. 10:00 a.m. precludes any sort of breakfasting type of food truck, right? And they would need a separate license to sell alcohol. They need a state license.

That would that would likely come with a visual barrier [laughter] at least a temporary. I'm getting worried about outdoor lighting. You know, there's no outdoor lighting. Too many signs. All right. No, hours of operation. Okay, Vladimir threw something out. Yeah. Um, commission respond. So that's that would be set in stone. There would not be any variation if it was like the 4th of July cuz you can't change it once you I mean Wendy, what? I'm not working at 10:00 on the 4th of July in Colchester.

Me neither. But after I'm sitting at home or my husband's got an office overlooking the lake. That's where I am. Okay. [laughter] But that's kind of a special event cuz I I know in the past when we've had the Fourth of July at at Bayside. I haven't been there lately, but they do have food trucks there. Yeah. And they're open until everybody's disappeared. But that's a special event. Never ask yourself if you're a food vendor, say on East Lakes Shore Drive, let's say someone manages to put one there again. What time do you want them to close?

On the 4th of July. No, you want them to close on June 15, 9:00. I think 10 is like more suiting. 10 or 10:30 or something. You found our night out. Really? I'm thinking if it if it's near enough, I know to a residential area. I know it's not in the residence hall, but it's next to one. 10:00 might be annoying. Yeah, definitely. And restaurants closed that night. I don't think this is I don't think this is this is where you go if you miss restaurant. You're right. If you miss the restaurant, I mean, Banties would close their food truck when it got dark. Is that what they would do?

There was no lighting. That's right. Well, that's true. [laughter] So, just one other bit of food for thought for you. Um, the DRB has had conversations with recent mobile food unit applicants with generators and how these things are powered. Um, ideally they'd have like an inverter generator that would be quiet. Um, but it's still still noise. And that relates to another part of these requirements, but might relate to the hour you pick.

Says I have no problem with the 900 p.m. I have no problem with 9. I hear two for 9. like an auctioneer all summer. I'm actually good as nine only because I don't go out anymore. [laughter] It was a day that I would say don't forget don't forget these this is this is the first adoption of these regulations. You start to hear from people who start to operate can always come to you 6:30 a.m. might be a little too early. Let's discuss. I actually did kind of like the 10. Okay, for that,

I don't understand why it makes a difference to us. If they want to open at 6:30, what difference does it make to us? He brought up the generator. If someone's cranking up a generator at 6:30 and you're and it's adjacent to a residential area, you may not like it if you're next door to adjacent. Yeah. Or Yeah. you want it later. Other things in our regulations say seven. There's quite a bit of other things that reference 7. I guess seven is I know 7 7 a.m. and 900 p.m. align with the performance standards in appendix C.

Would you like to see 7 a.m.? Perfect. Just go for seven. Everybody agree? Yes. Okay, we agree. 7 a.m. 9:00 p.m. All right. Can we move to trash and recycling? [laughter] I'm sorry. It is trash and recycling. Any thoughts? No dumpsters allowed. We're good. Just has to be removed every night, right? I think that's correct. Yeah. And no dumpsters. Okay. Yep. Uh, it doesn't have to be removed, but no dumpsters. So, good.

You just got to clean up your Yeah, pretty common sense, I think. All right. Additional restrictions. I don't like the portallet being restricted. Jump right to that one. Okay. I think that's going to be one we talk about. Any others in there, too, just so we can flag how many lighting. I mean, just like little lights or something. I just don't want it dark really dark. I mean, it's dark now at time 4:30. No cornhole.

I'm really getting [laughter] Stop. I have the fishery [laughter] into the lake champ. So, all right. So, let's start with um portable toilets. Yeah, you got to have that. You got food. You got food. Yeah. If you're stopping and you're waiting for 20 minutes and you got your kids to they're not waiting or you're stopping cuz you drove over there, you got to be able to break. Yeah. I don't know. A pretty one though. Pretty nice. Then you got to do another serviceable cost.

I mean that's going to food trucks don't make that much. We have a section in our rags about portable toilets. What does it say? Uh it's under uh temporary structures and currently um you're only allowed to have a portable toilet on a property uh if it's present for 15 days or less unless you have an active building and zoning permit um for construction that's ongo. Those are the only times you're allowed to have a portal. They're really temporary. Yeah. So, 15 consecutive days or 20 days?

I have yet to go to food truck stop except for one that has a portable toilet. None of the others have. I think it's the rest stop. I think because they have such a big crowd there, they have to they could have 100 people there. They could have 100 people there. Yeah, it's 15 days in one calendar year. Yeah. Like I think I don't have any kind of mine that's like closest to like a food truck. I keep thinking of like the sausage truck. Do you guys know that one at the Automotive? That one doesn't have a

The barbecue place across the street didn't have one either. Oh, actually if you really really had to go, they did have one for the employees. Did they? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're working seven to nine truck, just saying. But it was in the back. It's tucked in the back. Couldn't see it. Nobody. What if you just took that out? What if someone wanted to do that as a courtesy for the customers? I think we should subsidize but as Zach said it's it's only allowed for 15 days. It means uh yesoration that would need to be if you wanted them to be allowed here we would have to amend that section as well.

It's not that it can't be amended. We just have to cross cross check the language. That's all. Yeah. Portable toilets. Uh well no one likes um I think you got to have it though. truck and fit 16 people several times a day. Never had them before. This access to like a, you know, a bathroom. No, they never It's always a a mobile area. I mean, people come eat and go. Um, but like even at Bayside or airport and their bathrooms, you know, it's not you wouldn't

you wouldn't need one there. Where where's a place that you're going to there's not you can't walk. Well, it depends where the food truck sets up. If it's set up in a field like Banties was, you'd have to go somewhere else. I I I I don't think it since we're limiting it to 16 people, I don't think it's a big deal. Uh explain. portaotties are are really if they're not taken care of, if they're not dumped out, it's it's you don't want them on site.

No, 100% agree. That's what I'm saying. I don't know if you can add something in there with it or you know what I mean or lose police, but still Yeah. Did you say there's regulations on portable potties not even related to just for how long? Yeah, there must be like you must have to take care of them if you get usually they're under contract. If you if you're renting them, they come and clean them once a week or twice a week or whatever the product toilets cost few years back $1,000 a week. I think it's a big hit for a food truck.

Are they really that much? Okay. Contractor that used them last time, this was 5 years ago, was $1,000 a week. They better take care of them. I just feel like if if somebody wanted to have it there

that we should not restrict [snorts] them from having it there. I don't I'm not saying they have but then we have to change another regulation. So, my overall thought on this whole section was just the guiding thought of like food trucks are meant to be sort of like they're not the place you want to go meet a friend, hang out for like 10 hours. They're meant to sort of be like, "Oh, this is kind of cool and like I'm popping in and out." And it's to sort of prevent that sort of like um but if your thought if your thought is actually this should be the place where I meet up you know where my I take my family for 2 hours maybe not two hours that's a bit of an exaggeration but I do want to go hang out with my family for an hour and make an event out of it and play cornhole and um so I I was approaching it more like this is a very temporary place where a Trump could set up and sell food. That's the lens that I'm writing this all under.

Mhm. But if the lens that you see for them is not that if you if the lens that you're seeing is actually this should be a place for my family to go hang out for an hour, eat their ice. Like when I go to Kate's food truck, I'm not getting my burger and I tail out of there. like we're going to sit for an hour and we're going to enjoy our food and we're going to like go play the cornhole and we're going to, you know, argue back and forth about whether or not the milkshake is worth the calories and the money. Um, and we're never in and out of there in under an hour. It's sort of an event, you know. Um,

I think that goes back to like the original what kind of construction is it going to be? Is it going to be like temporarily parked in the parking lot for an event for Fourth of July, you know, for two days or a day or whatever the, you know, hockey, pond hockey game or whatever the, you know, they're setting up for or is this going to be a semi-permanent for 6 months structure that's over there. You know, that's going to depend if they're there for six months, I would imagine that they would set up some sort of a portable toilet if there's nothing in the area because depending whether you're an employee or whatever else, if you're doing a weekend, yeah, obviously they're not going to the port the portaotty is going to be a temporary setup anyway.

So, what's your vision for this place? I don't know where the place is still. I can't envision where they're going to or or these types of food trucks. again, you know, I'll go back to like the Essex automotive duck stand. Like that's a place where we might be like, "Huh, we're driving by. We absolutely are not going to McDonald's kids." Um bathroom there, though. There's no bathroom there. [laughter] But, you know, hey, they have um Italian sausage. That's what we're going to stop and get sausage. A lot of people

I Yeah, I see the food truck as more of a a come and go type of place. You may sit and eat, but I think I see it as a come and go. It's not like you're sitting down at the restaurant having drinks, staying for a while. I I I I agree with Kathy here that vision of it was not really it doesn't have to be your vision. No, but I agree with I agree with that kind of vision. That's what's reflected in the writing. But if you want to change it, why won't we just allow it? I mean, if preference to pay, whatever it is, why would we not?

We would need to change our regulations if we're going to allow it for more than 15 days. in a year in accounting every year. Yeah. I think the idea, just to answer your question, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but the idea is that it starts to change the feel of it. It's more of a place a little more on the spectrum of permanent and temporary. It gets closer to not temp not not permanent, but closer. It's not down in this temporary bit. It's it's sliding that way more when you start to add all these other things. When you start to add in the

bathrooms and yeah, when I was with my kids, I would, you know, I wouldn't stop at a place probably that I didn't know that there were bathrooms around.

Yeah. It would always be like where is there you know like um airport park or you know that there was some public bathrooms or some access to bathrooms or somewhere I could walk um bathroom or somewhere in the woods I didn't care but that's a gift but I was um I was just thinking like I to me food trucks. I'm not I'm not thinking solo, which is why I'm thinking there should be a port. I'm thinking like, you know, when you go down to the waterfront and they have like five, six different food trucks, you probably want a port down there. They probably do have them. Although I try to avoid them at the cost. [laughter] Well, I have to say that the Burlington where they have the the food trucks,

yes, is where the same place where they have the farmers market. And the city of Burlington has like four portaotties, right? Permanently there for the farmers market and for the food trucks. But you're talking about big crowds of people. Yes. Okay. And that's what I was Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't worry about like the event type stuff, you know, the Fourth of July and stuff. Think about the guy who wants to or gal who wants to go set up in the VIP parking lot. Um, most food trucks do not have port.

Yeah. What do you temporary? We can table this one. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get Rich to weigh in, too. All right, we'll table that one. Does he have money trucks? Um, is application requirements the last bit? Um, Zach and I are leaning towards building and zoning permit. Easy peasy. I think you guys all lit up when I suggested that earlier. Suggested what? Building and zoning permit. as the application mechanism.

I don't remember lighting up. [laughter] What's the difference? I'm sorry. What's the difference between the site plan application and building and zoning? Would it be either one or would it cost time? Cost time. Okay. So, which is the the less time is the building and zoning? Okay. Currently, we're in 3 to 6 months from when you can apply to, you know, start operating. Administrative site plans closer to 3 months. Building and zoning permits closer to two weeks. Oh, yeah. Building defining up again. I'm reading abundance. I'm just cutting regulations.

So, I'm very confused. So, you're saying the administrative site plan application would take longer. Yes. Okay. And building a zoning permit could be done inhouse. It doesn't have to go to the zoning board. Those would both be done in house. One just still requires more. It's a longer checklist. Okay. I agree. The building and zoning permit is the same form you would fill out. I agree. The building if it's the building and zoning permit takes less time than a site plan application. I think that's reasonable for a temporary seasonal facility.

Okay. With or without a port with or without Well, we'll bring Rich in that one. Uh, anything else? Cuz it's getting late. Yeah. Um, I think that's a good place to stop. Okay. Um, we'll pick up for umbrella approval for multi-tenant properties. Yes. Next time. Yes. So, the last thing that I want to make sure Okay, I'm trying to wrap this up. It's This is the latest meeting we've had in a long time. No, the last thing I We can talk about it. We can talk about it under item five.

Okay. Discuss draft timeline for town plan meetings. Okay. Did we talk about this last time? No, I'm going to be talking about it every time. It's the same thing.

Okay. But rather than talk about um the town plan timeline, the question will be, and I can follow up with Rich on this as well, do you guys want to continue this at the second November meeting? I know you're already holding it. I don't think so. As far as timing goes, um, we were originally thinking of kicking off a big town plan meeting on November 20th. However, given some other things, our office will soon be down a staff member permanently. Um, Kirk is leaving, running for another opportunity. Um, we are already very lean, so it's going to be tough for us to be turning things around. Um, we seem to be um leaving next week. Um, I've got some days out of the office in December for um some family things. um squishing in a vacation and then we'll be out for a surgery um at the turn of the new year. Um so I think with all that in mind plus the holidays

Mhm. it might be a good idea to push off all town plan activities to the new year. Really just hit them all at the same time rather than have this big gap. Okay. um through December. Um instead just focus on these development rigs, see how far we can get, package them up, see if we can talk earrings even. Um and um I think with that in mind, maybe a short meeting on the 20th, the 20th or 18th. 18th. 18th. 18th. 4 + 14 18.

Okay. um where we just pick up where we left off. Um, okay. December of November. But you said November 18th, we'll November 18th, we continue, we continue development regulations. And then December the second second you continue development regulations again. Probably not have a second meeting in December. um unless your son would move to but we can talk about that later. We don't have that today. Okay. December 2nd.

Is there any way um we could just get you know how we talk about I think act policies and actions or um is there any way we can get that what's updated so we can read ahead before we meet next year? What do you mean by what's updated? What's been done?

You know, in the town plan at the end, there's always there's always policies and actions. So, like I was going all the transportation. I was trying to check off like what actions have we done since the last town plan. And it could just be actions. has to be. But I'm just wondering if we could get those for each um you know for each category ahead of time. It might it just I I would find it helpful because that's I I I feel like if we haven't gotten some of the actions done that we were planning on getting them done um because of CO or whatever, but those should we should look at those and see if those are

I'm doing my best to get to it. What? I'm Yeah, I'm doing my best to get to it. Yeah. I just haven't yet. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, we'll focus the rest of the year on supplement 49. Mhm. And pick up in the new year town plan. That's a plan. Okay. So, we will have a meeting two weeks from now, but I think it'll be a much shorter meeting than tonight. Please. No, no, I really think you guys made it through a lot of hard stuff tonight. Um, yeah,

we had it really far. We had a public meeting. They don't have that too often. Um, can I move on now? Yeah. Okay. Can I get approval for the minutes of October 21st? Can I get a motion? Motion to adopt the minutes from October 21st. I second that orange. Okay. So move. Say I. Yeah. I uh other business. No monthly reports. No. We just finished it up today. So I'll share it with you next two weeks from now. Can I have a motion to adjurnn? I motion to adjurnn. Second. I

Okay. I I motion uh here at 9:40