Council - Regular Meeting
The Monroe Township Council held an agenda meeting where they discussed two proclamations, resolutions for consideration, and public comments regarding fair housing, affordable units, and the Upper Millstone Watershed regional approach. The council also addressed various reports from the engineer and council members, including updates on street lighting, discolored water, guardrail repairs, and the 522 water tower.
About this meeting
- Government Body
- Council
- Meeting Type
- Council
- Location
- Monroe, NJ
- Meeting Date
- December 23, 2025
Transcript
19 sections
Gentlemen, the agenda meeting of the Monroe Township Council is called to order on this date, December 22nd, 2025. Would you all please rise for the as we honor our flagg to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. I can do I'm stronger lately. Yes, I am. Look at that. Would the clerk please call the role? Councilman Charles Dapiro here. Councilman Michael Markell here. Councilwoman Rupa P. Seagull here. Council Vice President Terren Vanzora here. Council President Miriam Cohen here. Please read the Sunshine Law into the record. In accordance with the Open Public Meetings Act, it is hereby announced and shall be entered into the minutes of this meeting that adequate notice has been provided by the following. One, posted on the bulletin board within the municipal building on December 27th, 2024 and remains posted at that location for public inspection. Two, printed in the Home News Tribune and the Cranberry Press on December 27th, 2024. Three, posted on the Monroe Township website. And four, sent to those individuals who have requested personal notice. In accordance with chapter 3, section 17 of the Monroe Township Code, public comment shall be limited to five minutes unless further time is granted by the council president. Thank you. Item five are two proclamations. First is December 3rd, 2025 was a celebration of a roundabout book club
which celebrated its 125th anniversary. And this book club is a combination of folks from Jamesburg and Monroe and they had been meeting for that many years. The second was a proclamation proclaiming December 14th through 22nd of December to 2025, the 24th anniversary of Kabad Jewish Center of Monroe's celebration of Hanukkah in the township of Monroe. Item six, resolutions for consideration under the consent agenda at the December 22nd, 2025 regular meeting. That's R12 20225-261 through R12205-305. All any council members have resolutions that they wish to be removed. Yes, I just have one. Yes, sir. Thank you. R12 2025-279. Okay. No one else has anything that they need removed. Item seven is the public comment limited to a discussion only of those items on the agenda. Uh I would like a motion to open public comments please. Motion second on that please. Second. All in favor? I. Any opposed? No. Anyone wishing to address us, please come forward. Remember your time limit is 5 minutes. Your name and address for our records. [clears throat] and cold. Mhm. Shell Arminino, 9 Nathaniel Street. I'm
going to start, I think, backwards. The resolution number R12-2025-305. talks about the fair housing and ratifying a settlement. I thought we had what is the ratification and what is the change in settlement. So the there two parts to the settlement. The first settlement it was settling on a number. This is the compliance mechanism. So the number hasn't changed since number does not change. This is just how we're going to meet that number. So, so the if you see the agreement that's online, it's a recap of the second and third round and it shows what the fourth round mechanisms are. Okay. I understand that if my numbers are correct, uh we have a total of that we still are obligated 24,489 with all of the rounds combined. No, the the Well, I only we're only dealing with the fourth round. All of those other uh units are already subsumed in the second and third round obligations. Okay. So, what is the total on this one? Is that 354 um affordable units and 110 credits 110 and that's the same from the from when we got the reduction? Yes, ma'am. So, the state the state had given us something like 400 400 and something on that. No, I think the No, the state number was actually Kevin might know that the state the state originally recommended 751. Um [clears throat] we negotiated that down to 460 but um as Mr. Rayon said with credits with bonus credits under the statute that brings us down to 354. Okay. And they agreed to that. There is
no change in that number. No, that's the um Well, you have the agreement uh once again uh that is online is the agreement with Fair Share Housing Center. When you say is it the resolution or No, no, ma'am. That if if you looked on on the website right next to it, it said settlement agreement. So, there's a there's an actual settlement agreement. Okay. And then is this resolution does it have anything to do with the mediation agreement before the affordable housing dispute resolution program? It's MIDL638- Yes, that's so that's the that's the um affordable housing dispute resolution program. That's all part of the same process. Correct. And it's included in this is included. So, okay. So, I can speak to this, but this talks about I mean I I'm not an expert and this is hardly clear. Uh but this talks about it looks like there's 76 rehabilitation. Correct. uh 554 1,399 and then 460 from the last from for what this resolution, but it includes everything and the and the total of that is 24.89. So because what it does is the agreement recaps what happened in the first two rounds because part of the the new affordable housing legislation said that you have to you have to look back and at those plans. So those plans are unchanged essentially. Correct. Um, have we delivered on those? Um, well, you'll see in there some of them have been completed and some of them have not been completed. Certainly not all of your third round um, projects have been completed yet. Okay. So, it leads me to believe and remember we reduced the I I I the one exception is we did reduce the third round by 479 market rate units based on going to based on the settlement agreement that we approved uh in um, September with
JSM. September 20, 2025. Right. Correct. Correct. And we passed that ordinance at the last meeting, right? Correct. Okay. September 2nd, 2025. I guess that's it. That was the theou. Correct. And then we did the the zoning ordinance was adopted at your at the last meeting. So just again, these 354 units will translate to how many because this is the resolution for this. How many total units with the market rate units? Mr. McGowan, I asked him that question just before I walked in here. He said 689 689 total units correct will be built in order to for us to give the 354. Yeah. And as you can see, that's a pretty good ratio. Wow. Uh well, no, I mean it's remember in the last round it was four for one. So for 354 units, you would have had four times 354. So it's it's a it's but again it totals are 12,445 over all the rounds that you No, not 12. Certainly not 12,000. Not you said 12,000. The total I'm not talking about affordable. If you take the the you're going back 40 years. Well, we don't Yeah, we're I don't know if it's 40 years. It's going back 19 Yeah. 1999. No, that's only the third round. So it this also includes the second round. Just talking about what's in in the paperwork. Yeah. No, no, but I'm just I'm just So it's all 40 years. Sure it is because it also includes the second round which is the 10-year period before that. So remember the the the third round took uh 15 years to do because there was a gap period and there was the 10-year period. So the answer is is yeah. This is this obligation is a essentially you're talking about going back to Mount Laura 1. It's a 40 something year obligation. Correct. 12,000 is a lot of houses though. Thank you.
I agree. [snorts] Anyone else wishing to address us here? Seeing and hearing none, I'll ask a motion to close the public portion, please. Motion. Thank you. May I have a second on that, please? Second. All in favor? I. Any opposed? May I have a mo? No, there's no opposite. May I have a motion to adjourn the agenda meeting, please? Motion. Thank you. May I have a second on that? Second. Thank you. Roll call, please. Councilman Dapiro? Yes. Councilman Markell? Yes. Councilwoman Seagull? Yes. Council Vice President Vanzora? Yes. Council President Cohen? Yes. Meeting is adjourned. The time is 6:41. Very good. Going to call the regular meeting called to order. Motion, please. Motion. Thank you. Second on that. Second. Roll call. Councilman Dapiro, yes. Councilman Markell, yes. Councilwoman Seagull, yes. Council Vice President Vanzora, yes. Council President Cohen, yes. May I have a motion to approve the minutes of the following meeting, December 1st, 2025. The agenda and regular meeting combined. Motion, please. Motion. Thank you. Second on that. Thank you. Roll call. Councilman Dapiro, stand. Councilman Markeel. Yes. Councilwoman Seagull. Yes. Council Vice President Vanzora. Yes. Council President Cohen. Yes. Motion carries. Thank you. Item four, resolutions for consideration. Oh, sorry. Motion to approve the payments of claims for the run date of December 17th, 2025. A motion on that, please. Motion. Thank you. A second on that. Second. Thank you. Again, roll call. Councilman Dapiro. Yes. Councilman Markell. Yes. Councilwoman Seagull. Yes. Council Vice President Vanzora. Yes. Council President Cohen. Yes. Motion carries.
Thank you. Now when we have a motion to approve the minutes of the December 21st December 1st, 2025 agenda and regular combined meeting motion. Second on that. Please this. We're done with that. I thought we already did that. Oh, we did that. I'm sorry. I lost my place. Apologize. You move to resolution for consideration under the consent agenda. Would the clerk please read the numbers and the one sentence will be voted on separately? Resolutions R12 2025261 through R12 2025305 with the exception of R12 2025279 which will be voted on separately. Motion please. So moved. Thank you. Second on that. Second. Vote on that please. Councilman Diapro. Yes. Councilman Markell. Yes. Councilwoman Seagull. Yes. Council Vice President Vanzora. Yes. Council President Cohen. Yes. Motion carries. Moving to the next one, please. Resolution R12, 2025 279. Motion. Motion. Second. Second. Roll call, please. Councilman Diro, stand. Councilman Markell. Yes. Councilwoman Seagull. Yes. Council Vice President Vanzora. Yes. Council President Cohen. Yes. Motion carries. We move to our reports. We will begin with Mr. McGawan. Thank you, Council President. I'll be I'll be very brief tonight. I just first want to uh recognize and thank our DPW Parks Department and MTUD for all the great hard work and assistance they provided during the last snowstorm. It's not easy to be out in those conditions and they did a great job as well to MTOD personnel who were out over this past weekend in very cold conditions dealing
with a project. So much appreciated to those departments and just a merry Christmas and happy new year to the council. Thanks. Thank you. Engineers report please, Mr. Rowit. Sure. Thank you, Council President. I'll be brief as well. Um, you know, the cold weather has impacted uh, you know, progress [clears throat] on some of our projects. However, the uh James Monroe Park concession stand work still continues there. They're working inside the building. Um and that's my report. Thank you. Council reports. I will begin on my extreme right. Councilman Diro. Thank um I just wanted to um ask a question in reference to uh JCPNL. Uh, did we ever get a proposal on the street lighting that we talked about this year? So, uh, Council President, we received a report based on the street light outages that we provided to JCPNL. Um, we provided a report of 250 lights. They repaired all but 70, and I'm still waiting on a report for the last 70. There were deeper issues in terms of, um, needing to bring in different contractors to deal with faults in the ground. So, not a not a light bulb issue essentially, but but a little more involved than that. Um, I am also expecting hopefully before the end of the year, if not at the very beginning of January, a full report from JCPNL regarding recent power outages that we've had that the mayor had asked for. Um, and a representative from JCPNL has has offered to be here at a council meeting in in in the early part of 2026 to answer any further questions and explain that. So that's that's all the update that I have from JCPN. You might need armor. Okay. So So we don't have a proposal to make a transfer to LED street lighting yet. I do not have that proposal yet, Council President. All right. Thank you. Um the past couple
weeks we've been getting some complaints about discoloring water. Um brown, yellow, um discolored. Um I know we did receive a Nixall over the weekend. Um, was is that did we find out what the problem was and is is it resolved? Council President, yes. As as we posted to our website, we uh MTAU did a great job. They did identify the issue in terms of an unauthorized use of a fire hydrant up in the venue community. Um, the issue has been identified and resolved. It took some time over the weekend to flush out that um discolored water. Um Joe can get into any more detail if you'd like, but we know that the um the issue with the water was safe. Um it just needed to work its way through the system and it needed our personnel to help flush it out. So uh as of today, as of yesterday actually, uh that issue had been resolved. Thank you. Thank you. Uh I also wanted to say thank you to DPW and MTUD and everyone that did the snow. Uh it's not easy because as soon as you see the snow, everybody wants to see the black top and the sidewalks right after it. So um it's not as the temperatures drop it gets it gets to be a little tiresome to stay out there and and to continue uh to keep a keep our road safe and I just wanted to say thank you for this for the crews and staff that was out there. Uh, guardrail. Do we have I know we have a list of guard rail. Federal road, Primal Road, Apple Road, there's spots of gravel. There's so many roads. Um, do we have a a list yet and a schedule on on the repairs? Council [clears throat] President. Yes, please. So, so yes, we have those locations. They were provided by our public works. Um, we met with the guide rail uh company. Uh we anticipate the mid to the
end of January right now for a schedule to get uh to get that work underway. Very nice. Okay, good. So the one on Federal Road that we work that out. Hopefully we we can get that safe where it doesn't get destroyed again. So hopefully u that's a big one that's keeps getting hit time after time. So that's good. Well 21. Uh is that job complete and was it done on budget? Mr. Shamre. Yes. That's as simple. That's as simple as it gets. So that that's perfect, Joe. That's perfect. [laughter] Thank you. Thank you for getting I know it wasn't easy. You were dealing with four or five different contractors. So, thank you for getting it done and thank you for getting it done on on budget. Uh 522 water tower. Um, are we going to be painting and refurbishing that through the winter or are we going to wait till spring? The contractor has mobilized. In fact, they were there taking some soil samples and paint chip samples. They're specking the paint out right now. So, probably within the next month or so, uh, you'll see all their equipment on site and the tent uh, getting erected around the tank. That's good because it won't be a big draw for the water supply. So, that's good time to shut it down. Uh Joe, one more question or council president. Um fence, uh pump station 10. Uh do we have any idea when we're going to be putting our fence around pump station 10? At this point, uh the uh actual owner of the auto body shop is still completing his survey. So, we've been told to hold off on that until that survey is complete. Once that survey is complete and we truly identify what the property
line boundaries are, then we will go ahead and install the fence. We've got the quote. Okay. Thank you. And um a lot of us participated with the car parade, the tree lighting at the rec center. Um everything went well. The weather was good. A good good amount of cars, over 30 cars. And I just wanted to say thank you to the recck department, uh, station 51, our [clears throat] police, and and everybody that made that happen. And I just want to say happy holidays, merry Christmas, and happy new year to all. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Markeel. Going in order, please. Yes. I just wanted to mention one thing. I've been getting numerous calls into the microphone. Sorry. I've been getting numerous calls about um the anchor checks going out in New Jersey. um numerous calls cuz a lot of people haven't received their check. I spoke with the New Jersey Treasury and they said to tell everybody that it's a 30-day processing from the time they get it. So, a lot of people will sent their applications in October 30th, right before the deadline. So, I just wanted to say they will get their checks. They can check on the New Jersey um Treasury um website. There's a status link where you can put in your social and you can see where they are with your um with your application. I want to wish everybody a merry Christmas and what's remaining of Hanukkah, happy new year and uh that's about it. Thank you. Thank you, Council President. Good evening everyone. Uh just a few things I wanted to just say thank you to DPW and MTUD for all their work. As Mr. McGowan and um Councilman Dapiro had mentioned earlier, it's a big town and it was a big storm. So, we thank you for all your hard work around the clock and you know, it's year end and sometimes we reflect on the year that's going and the year
that's coming up and just wanted to mention a few things that were top of mind to recognize and acknowledge uh some of the accomplishments. But this year we did a lot of expansions in our parks and recreation area through the master plan process. Improvements at JMP. We have the new walking trail, Tranquility Trail and our new pickle ball courts that are coming to the senior center. We talk about safety and security. It's one of the big things we focus on and we remain one of the safest towns in the country. We have an outstanding police force and EMS. We've added more staff and ambulances and we've received a lot of grant money this year through the collaboration with our county and state which is wonderful. We've been able to pave a lot of roads and add traffic lights etc. and all the work that's done throughout the year through our boards and commissions bringing all kinds of programming around education and services to the entire community. So I really want to thank our volunteers that serve on these boards and commissions. It's a lot of time and dedication that they put in and always grateful for the amazing people who work in our township day in and day out to help ensure that we all live in this wonderful community. So with that, happy holidays to everyone and I wish you a prosperous new year. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. Um, as we uh approach the end of 2025, couldn't help around, but a lot of things that went on this year. We had a lot of uh issues with floods and fires around the country, some mass shootings and other killings and uh and I also like the last few weeks been sort of fighting a cold. So, it kind of helps you put things in perspective and appreciate all the good things that you have when you have your health. You live in a great town like we live in and you have family and friends and things of that nature and knowing that you could go outside and feel safe where you are and where you live. Um it just gives you
a good feeling and uh it's nice to know and it's just nice to appreciate those people that are out there that are helping us uh you know live our lives when a lot of other people have been going through a lot of struggles during the year. So as we reach the end of the year whatever we happen to celebrate whether it was Diwali the end of Hanukkah coming now Christmas Kwanza's coming whatever we celebrate wish everyone happy holidays and and a great new year coming up. So, thank you for everything. Thank you, [cough and clears throat] Antonley. Thank you, Madame Council President. Uh, just three items. Uh, so obviously to the stalwart citizens who are here, uh, I please invite you to take a look at the tree on your way out. to anyone listening um through YouTube or whatever any of that social media stuff, please stop by town hall, take a look at the tree out front in the foyer. That's uh Miss Vasaki's middle school class has decorated that tree for America's 250th birthday and that's part of a revolutionary communities program in which her class is participating in. So, um, I recommend that you come and take a look at that 250. The celebration is just around the corner. Um, and briefly just want to send thank yous out to DPW, our police, and obviously the schools are all the nurses who participated in the mayor's toy drive. to all of the organizations and the people who donated uh this past week went out with the police and DPW and delivered toys and gift cards to 66 families and 188 children to make their holiday bright. And with that being said, may your holiday be bright, merry, merry
Christmas, happy new year, be safe. Thank you. Open for public comments. May I have a motion to do that, please? Motion. Thank you. May I have a second? Second. Thank you. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Motion [snorts] carried. Anyone wishing to address us, please come forward. Good evening. Address for our records, please. Uh, my name is Jol Maloney. I'm not a resident of MRO. I'm actually here from the Watershed Institute. I'm the municipal policy specialist there. You're ready. So, I'm here tonight to talk to you about the upper Mstone Watershed regional approach to help the town meet the watershed improvement plan requirements which is part of the MS4 permit. Uh I hope that the township council can take the information shared here and discuss Monroe's participation in the regional approach for the uppermost stone. So the watershed institute has been promoting working on a regional basis for the watershed assessment report which is phase two of the wershed improvement plan. Again the watershed improvement plan is part of the requirements for the MS4 permit. The watershed assessment report is due at the end of December of 2026 and currently there are three regional approaches in progress. The lower millstone, the Stonybrook and the Asen Pink. We believe that when it comes to this watershed assessment uh report that working with your neighboring towns in the watershed uh leads to better and smarter solutions and plans for the entire watershed which also may be cost effective for the towns in the long run and Monroe is part of one of those wersheds that we are working with the upper milestone. Uh we recently held an upper Mstone regional meeting uh I believe last week where we reviewed proposals from two consultants, One Water and Princeton
Hydro for the proposed work in the Upper Mellowstone wershed. So for Monroe's participation if they choose to participate in the Upper Mstone regional approach, the cost may range from $39,891 to $59,618. Um the range is dependent on whether the group decides to do water quality monitoring to better inform the preparation of the plan. It also assumes that all towns are participating in the plan. The watershed institute is currently looking for funding sources for the upper milestone. That being said, uh we are holding the next upper milestone meeting coming at the end of January. There will be more details to come when the date is finalized. uh we will be discussing who is participating in the regional approach for the uppermost stone as the war is due at the end of December 2026. So uh at the January meeting we hope that municipalities uh will decide whether they are participating in [clears throat] the regional approach as there needs to be sufficient time for the consultant to prepare the pool and create the plan and I am here to extend the invitation to Monroe to come to the January meeting for the upper milestone and the watershed institute is also more than happy to sit down with Monroe and go more in detail about the regional approaches what is currently happening in the upper milestone regional approaches as well as Monroe's part in that regional approach. Thank you very much for your comment. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Shar Nathaniel Street. Um, I'd like to thank this young lady for her, I'm sure, volunteerism for doing this. And I hope that the council takes up the very important uh situations for our our watersheds. Um, people don't always uh
pay attention to it, but it's uh very very important. And I hope we also I don't know if you've passed the green amendment. Um, another a woman came a couple months ago uh asking Monroe Council to pass the green amendment. And I see everybody well some of the people have their heads down. So I don't know if um it's on the agenda or not. It has not been on on the I know I would like to you for you to put it on the agenda because we're talking about um the health of our community and the health of our state. So, uh, plastics it I mean I I I don't even see why we wouldn't consider it and certainly why we wouldn't be involved in the watershed. Okay, let me go to the resolutions. Um, there's a refund resolution on here 291. It refunds the taxes for about $24,000 plus. Um, how is that determined? Was this done from as an appeal as a result of an appeal? Mr. McGowan, please. Uh, council president, no, these particular uh reductions are the result of residents, several residents who now qualify for the disabled veteran exemption. Okay, that's good. Um, there are other there's other resolutions. I think there are three of them that have to do with tax appeals 264, 276, and 277. And, uh, these are we pay these attorneys to do our tax appeal legal services. How often are they successful in uh the appeals? Actually, the people not being the taxes not being reduced because we pay a lot of money to these attorneys. How successful are they in protecting the taxes of going to Monroe? We think they're very successful because most of these cases settle and they always settle for less than what the taxpayer is asking for. Um so, but the taxpayer does get a reduction generally. Correct. But we generally settle them for less than what the taxpayer is
asking for. So I I consider that to be a good result. Statistically about how% statistically about one in 10,000 tax appeal cases get tried. So the answer is is I don't think I can give you a statistic as to what we are. But I can tell you that they never settle for what the taxpayer is asking for and we always negotiate what you know once again it's the tax assessor's decision ultimately as to what the number is. Um okay. So, all right. Next, um the there's a grant uh that we're applying for the Department of Community Affairs for 1,500,000 if I'm reading that correctly. And are we do we have to match that number to uh resolution 295? Mr. McDow. Uh Council President, thank you. So, this was a legislative appropriation in the 2025 state budget. Um what happens with those appropriations is that they are then once the state budget is passed which obviously this one was it is redirected to the appropriate um administrative department in this case the department of community affairs for us to file an application so they could monitor how we intend to spend those funds. So there's no specific match that comes along with that. There's no match at all. Okay. So this is this the application for the grant or have we are we getting the grants awarded in the grants awarded in the state budget and all we do is file formally and ask DCA to give it to us. Correct. Did they give it to us? Are they awarding it? It's awarded in the state budget. It is it's awarded specifically to Monroe is my correct correct. Thank you. That's good enough. Uh and the last one uh resolution 278. Um I just need clarification where it talks about um general township attorney general legal. The township attorney shall be paid 27,000 plus annually. Um and so my question would be for what?
And then it says general legal fees not to exceed $428,400 per year. Can you the first covers my attendance at council meetings? So this is pure the 27 is just council meeting attendance council meetings and the rest is the hourly legal services provided to the township. Okay. And that is hourly legal services by uh my firm. All right. Since I have to address it to uh Miss Cohen. Um so it's for the firm all correct in its entirety and it I guess it's number one all the people that would be involved in that. Excuse me. The number one it says the mayor in town appear by authorized to enter into one year professional service contract with Lewis Reon with the firm. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought they were they were different names. And I guess that's it. We're spending millions of dollars. I get five minutes. Um, thank you all for the year and I wish everyone a happy new year, a happy uh holiday season and to all the good things that have happened in Monroe. I am grateful. I hope we go into the new year and take care of our watershed and get rid of plastics. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to address the council, please come forward now? Seeing and hearing none, may I have a motion to close public comment? Motion. Second on that, please. Second. All in favor? Any opposed? No. May I have a motion? Council president, can I just make can I just make a comment? the first resident that came up and talked about uh the watershed. I did attend a meeting in Cranberry. Yes. For that. And um I'm also I just wanted to point out that we just had a meeting Saturday and we had um u Gary uh u from Sha Tree. He did he did a presentation.
It was available by Zoom. I'm sure we can get it on the website for the town if the if the residents want to see it u because it was recorded and um we we did do a he did do a presentation on the water uh drainage and everything that that we we're doing in the town but um I would I would definitely like to uh join along with the uh because I get emails we get emails from them and uh I would definitely like to attend. So thank thank for the record. I I would just add that um you know uh that is part of our MS4 reporting. I have been speaking to the engineers in in a couple of the other towns who are involved um who were at that meeting. Uh we will be at the next meeting. Um certainly there's an expense. I'll be speaking with our business administrator after the new year. Um as we get more information on this is a new requirement of our storm water reporting and uh that's due uh later next year. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else have any further comments to make? I would just like to wish everyone a very happy and a very healthy new year. Again, my always my overwhelming thanks to the very fine people that work with this township that keep our roads clear and keep us all safe. And we should all be well and enjoy a good year. May I have a motion to adjurnn, please? Motion. Thank you. May I have a second? Second. Time. We are adjourned. It is 70707. Seven.
This transcript was automatically generated from the official public meeting video and is presented unedited. It reflects remarks made on the public record by elected officials, staff, and public commenters. Transcript accuracy may vary; view the original recording for reference.