City Council - Regular Meeting

We will start with our first item which is the pledge of allegiance led by our newest counselor

to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Thank you Beth. Uh item two is instructions on exiting this building in case of emergency and review our technology options with Jesse Baker, city manager.

Thank you. Um so for those who are here in the audience, welcome. Thank you for joining us. If there is a emergency during this meeting, you can go out the rear of the auditorium on the left or right and then turn left or right to get outside. Um for those who are p participating remotely, thank you for joining us as well. If you would like to speak during any item on the agenda, please use the raise hand function in the uh webinar Zoom um and the chair will call on you or you can indicate that you'd like to speak in the Q&A section and I will have the chair call on you. Other than that, we are not monitoring the chat for content.

Thank you, Jesse. Item three is agenda review. Do we have any additions, deletions, or changes in the order of agenda items tonight? Okay, seems we don't have any. We'll move on to item four, which is comments and questions from the public not related to tonight's agenda. Are there any tonight? I see some hands go up. Come on to the podium. And there are some instructions on the podium. So, just follow them for making the microphone turn on. [snorts] Uh Ashley South Burlington. Um, I'm wondering, can you turn up the speaker a little bit so I can hear you? Mine's easy. It's very hard to hear both of you guys talking.

You're saying you can't hear me talk? Now I can hear you talk, but if you're not leaning into the mic, I have a very hard time hearing you. Okay, we're going to turn it up right now. Thank you. But yeah, that usually applies to virtually every meeting we ever have. So, thank you. Who's next? I'll take the stand. Make sure you identify yourself. Make sure the green light's on.

Green light's on. My name is John Beler. I'm here about pickle ball in Samansky Park. I live on Worth Street, which is a public thoroughfare of uh all the pickle ball players who come to our neighborhood. And uh let me just start with what I prepared. Easier that way for me. Uh the summer will soon be here. And once again, the the residents of Laurel Hill will unfortunately have to endure a t-fold increase in car traffic on our streets. We have to deal with drivers who rarely follow the speed limit and show little concern for ped pedestrians and children in the street. There's several reasons why I'm opposed to the pickle ball courts and why I would ask you people to review it. When the pickle ball courts were first put in, I went and had a meeting with the committee, the recreation committee that's shared by Mike Simmon and asked him was there any research done any studies asked for about the impact of the pickle ball courts in our neighborhoods and there wasn't any. So they were just put in when the courts were still tennis courts they were being resurfaced. There were no signs put up that they were going to be changed into pickle ball courts. The community was not involved with any of the decisions to put these in. There were no studies on or benchmarking the impact of the committee. What I'm asking for is to somehow limit the amount of traffic that comes through our streets, limit the speed that people are driving. I know that's going to be very difficult to do. It's easy to say and easy to ask, but we need to do something to keep the traffic down and slow the speeds. I know the hours have been changed and that helps a little bit, but from my standpoint,

there's so much traffic that comes through just for pickle ball. We didn't like we didn't sign up for that. We weren't involved in that decision to do that. That was something that was done in this building. So, that's my main complaint that we need to have something to do. Something has to be done to limit the traffic and to slow the traffic. Someone's going to get hurt. It's going to happen sooner or later. People, they just drive too fast. Questions. Do you notice the speeding on your street, Worth Street, as well as Andrews Avenue?

Yes. They come up Imperial, make the corner, and zoom up. I spend a lot of time dog walking as well. So, as I'm walking in the morning, there's a lot of traffic at 15 quarter quarter of the hour. Everybody's coming up to get the top of the hour court time. And the the tremendous number of of cars that park at the end of Andrews is the little parking lot that's there only holds about six cars and one of one of the places is taken up with a fort. So, I beg you again, take a look at what's what's there. Someone's going to get hurt. They drive too fast and there's too many of them. So, thank you. Thank you very much.

Well, again, I have a bigger ass. Uh myself and the neighbors that came the last time when we did Did you identify yourself? I'm sorry. Did you identify yourself? I I didn't hear. Oh, Jovon Gorino Stone Hedge, South Burlington, L3.

Um I have a bigger ask and I'm getting tired of asking. We don't want the courts to open with the nets up until you talk to us, the taxpaying people. Almost a hundred signatures that represent families, not just a 100 people. Between two and six people in a family are affected. We don't want it there. We don't want you to put the nets up. We want you to talk to us. We want you to ease it out of Samansky Park. It will not suffer. This community of pickle ball players will not suffer less four courts that should never have been put where they are. It is 11 hours a day, seven days a week, almost nine months out of the year if the court if the nets go up in March. And that is not fair. You never asked us and we're telling you no. We're telling you we don't want it there. And if you have read a fraction of all the information I have sent you, you would understand. Do you have any questions for me?

Not at this time. Do you say you have a petition? I do. Have you submitted to anybody on the No, it's waiting for the lawyer. Okay. It's waiting for the lawyer. And that is about the only way cities move on this issue. I mean, you can a petition without having a a lawyer look at it. No, I'm still I'm actually still working on it. I'm still working and talking to people. So, we want what we want the people who live there is for the rec department and city council to talk to us before you put those nets up and understand it's a serious problem for us. The nets are not up yet.

The nets are not up yet. I'm I'm a little more animated this time because this is my fourth year of coming and and trying to be reasonable and trying to work it out and the situation doesn't get better. I think you heard the last time that we all regulate the hours and we don't want that job. So, thanks for your time. Thank you.

Hello, Kelly Joy. I am a resident of South Burlington. I live on Laurel Hill Drive. Um I'm also here to talk about the pickleball courts and I echo everything that John and Jovanna just said. Um we have been speaking out about this issue for multiple years as Jovanna noted and we really want to hear from you all about solutions. Um, if the nets do go up this year, which I hope they do not in the form that they have over the past few years, I demand that there be temporary speed bumps put up. These things do exist. Um, they are, you know, things that can be installed without digging up the roadway. um on Andrews Avenue, Imperial Avenue, and Laurel Hill Drive on the stretch between Black Lantern and Andrews Avenue, which is where we see the most egregious speeding um going on, that the parking be limited to the parking lot, and that the parking along Andrews Avenue be limited to residents only because the this neighborhood has no sidewalks. So when cars park down both sides of Andrews Avenue, it creates a very dangerous visibility issue. We have so many children are families with small children are drawn to this neighborhood because of Orchard School. We have so many small children on bikes and scooters and skateboards and you know that visibility is a huge problem if you have cars parked down both sides of the street, no sidewalks and cars speeding. Like John said, it is just a matter of time before something terrible happens. And we also, if the nets do go up, demand enforcement either by the South

Burlington Police Department or the Recreation Department um in the hours leading up to the time that the courts open in the morning and the hours after they close. Residents are being forced to enforce these hours on their own. They are being put in confrontational situations multiple times a week. So, we have people who can hear the courts after they close at 8:00 p.m. and they have to leave their homes, go out to the courts, confront the players, tell them that it's time to leave and stand there and be verbally assaulted um until the players leave. I myself have had to confront people in the early morning hours when they are there playing before the courts open and it is not a comfortable place to be. So something has got to change this year. We have been coming for multiple years and all we have gotten is we hear you and there needs to be change. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Back for a second round. Um Well, on that topic, I don't live identify yourself again, please.

Ashley of South Burlington. Again, um I live pretty far away from the pickle ball and sometimes I actually can hear it at my house when I'm gardening. It's not nearly as loud as the ducks that are still there. I You guys had said that you were going to do something about that and never have. Um and we might have rooster number four. Uh again, this is all after I moved in, but with the pickle ball and also right where so I live right before the road splits and you either go right or take the next right. Um we do have an awful lot of people who I see looking down at their phones as they're driving right around there. Um, some of the neighbors have planted trees and put rocks in front of their houses because of people who have crashed into their yards uh so that it wouldn't crash into their house. But it is a good point. There is a lot of distracted driving and they don't seem to understand when there's dogs, which I guess little kids too, uh, they're going around the cars and they're in a hurry and they don't give you a lot of clearance sometimes. That's all.

Thank you. Is there anybody online? I don't see any hands raised online. Any other comments from the public? Not on the agenda tonight. Okay. Thanks. We're going to move to item five, which is counselor's announcements and reports on committee assignments in the city manager report. Can I ask a quick um Sher Sher? I now see your hand up. I'll back up for you. Go ahead, please, and identify yourself. Can you hear me, Shar? Can you hear me? Yeah.

Okay. I just was wondering if I should speak now or later in the agenda around um the a potential task force. Why don't you wait for that item? It's it's coming up at number seven, I believe. Okay. Thank you very much. Sorry to interrupt. No problem. Tim, can I ask a quick procedural question? Sure. When would be the appropriate time to make a motion uh related to the testimony that we just heard? Would be that be at the end of the meeting? We well at other business we could have a quick discussion but we need to have an agenda item for that issue. Okay. So moving on item five which is counselor's announcements and reports and committee assignments. Um Beth, would you like to go first?

Oh yeah, sure.

Yes. Uh so this is where I give you my updates, correct? [laughter] Um, so I was at the energy committee meeting on March 25th. Uh, I guess just one announcement. Uh, the committee has decided to move forward with the energy festival which will be on September 19th. At least that's the tentative date. Um, so we're looking forward to that. Um, we also discussed some potential projects that would, you know, maybe be part of the FY27 work plan. Uh we narrowed it down to a list of three options plus prot potentially a transportation related uh project. Um and the council is going to hear more about that at Batina's um upcoming committee presentation. Um we also had a long discussion about the thermal implementation plan um specifically heat pumps. There was a lot of discussion around that um which we will continue and um I'm sure that everyone here is going to hear more about that as well. And then um Betina also expressed an interest in geothermal and thermal energy networks which um is kind of interesting and kind of a segue into the next thing which is uh I took a tour of the new airport terminal. I don't know if you I'm sure everyone's seen that. Um it's phenomenal. Phenomenal. And one of the big highlights is the geothermal um installation. I don't know what you call it, but it was pretty impressive. So if you get a chance, if Nick Longo can take you down there, it's pretty

Did they put solar on the roof as well? Uh they did not yet on but there's a big space um there's a deck

an observation deck that the public has access to now. Um and there's uh solar ready space surrounding the deck. But it's it's very impressive really an amazing uh an amazing feat that they accomplished over there. Um, and then also, this is relevant to an upcoming agenda item, but I looked at the um I watched the judiciary committee hearings, the state judiciary committee hearings, both the law enforcement and public testimony hearings. Um, and I guess we're going to talk more about this, but there are still a lot of different perspectives about what happened on March 11th. So, you know, if folks haven't watched those hearings, they're definitely worthwhile. Um, and I believe that is everything. So, thank you.

Thank you, Lori. Yeah. So, um I went to the opening of Next BTV um last week. Andrew was there as well. And is that the airport terminal you're talking about? The airport? Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. The next BTV airport expansion. This the same thing that Beth was just talking about. Exact same thing. Exact same thing except we were there for the grand opening. Oh, you weren't there for the grand opening? I I was I was working that day, so I couldn't make it. Yeah, we're there for the grand opening. It was incredibly well done. It's a phenomenal building. It's a huge asset in our community and Nick Longo is quite the remarkable man. Was the mascot there?

The mascot? No, I don't think I saw I don't think I saw the mascot, but um so it's it's a remarkable new terminal. Next time someone flies out of BTV, they will experience it. Um the um NRCC met. I did I was not at that meeting but I listened to the um meeting and um Civic Soul, our new um consultant for the parks and recreation or parks and open space master plan gave their first presentation. It was very wellreceived. It was very well presented. Um, and I'm thrilled that they're on board and that we are moving forward with um, hopefully what will be a very productive phase two of that process. Um, the NRCC also has their proposed work plan 2027 complete and submitted and they will be at I think the March 4th um, meeting. Anyway, they'll be they'll they they've set up and um I know that the um wreck and parks division are still working on getting their master plan completed and in. And um first prize goes to the Sexton who had their plan for 2027 completed quite a while ago. And so those are all in and ready to go. And um I [snorts] think following up on the pickle ball conversation something that we need to do and looking forward to the the next agenda item that we've got. So that's it for me.

Thanks Lori. Andrew.

Yeah. So the new terminal is amazing. I mean, just to flesh out a little bit, um, the facility right now is kind of carbon free because they get their electricity from GMP he geothermal. Um, they're hoping to go net zero and what they mentioned, I thought, is they're working with Burlington Electric to put the solar panels on. So, that's cool. Yeah. And they they're getting um uh carbon certifications right now. They have level one. It goes to level five. Level one means that they're I think and I don't want to get this wrong that they've done a bunch of work to evaluate to think about it. Um and they've got more to go but they're on the path. They're on the path which is exciting. So that's good. Um then um I also attended or listened to I should say all the the hearings and they were also um very interesting. Um and I would encourage everyone to listen to everything that was said the legislative hearings on on what happened at Dors Street. I attended the um CCRPC regional um event for u city councils and select board members where we had um active discussions about a number of topics. So uh what happened on Dorser Street was really the principal thing a lot of a lot of very um energetic discussion I should say about that topic. Um then we talked a bit about climate change initiatives. Um there was a fair bit of discussion about um what to do with um dogs that that bite people. Everyone had um from clowns with blackboard except us stories about problem dogs in our town. Some really tragic some like real real tragedies and and and what to do. So there was a lot of discussion around that which um hopefully we won't experience that. Um and then um the folks from Shelurn talked a little bit about organization that um is in is in their town, not sponsored by the city per se, but works handinand glove with

the city called Experience Shelburn, which is designed, as they um described it to uh get more community engagement. And um they they they you know, say it's working. So probably something we might want to look at and see if there's anything there that we uh can learn from, copy, I don't know. So yeah, that's it. Thank you, Andrew. Um, I attended a public arts community uh meeting and they discussed their work plan and if you didn't know uh this week at on Thursday at 5:00 pm there will be the grand opening for the pastel society hanging that's out in the gallery. I think it's up there now, right? Okay. Um, I also attended the uh state legislators forum uh and the majority of that meeting uh was taken up by each of the reps talking about their experience with the March 11th event that happened on Dorsy Street and Martin Londi committee had some interesting observations about that as well. Then there was a little bit of time left over to talk about consolidation, education, you know, education funding. Um, but the bulk of it was taken up by the ICE action and and the police response. Um, I also attended a planning commission meeting and there was a presentation [clears throat] by the CCRPC on their study of the hotel uh roads intersection in front of the Delta Hotel, access to Jammer and Starbucks, Mo and and how to improve that intersection. Uh and also taking into account that intersection plus the Mary Street uh you know exit as well. There were people there from Mary Street that opposed opening Mary Street as which not surprising. Um later on there was a presentation about the Heisenberg shared use path and uh the challenges to reconstruct that which we have the funds for. It's on it's all planned but there are storm water

issues. Uh there are right ofway uh that have not been I think they're not incomplete at this point and also some utility obstacles. So it's it's a big project and uh they're making you know they're making their way along but um that was I I hadn't seen that in a while about the different sections down by the gas station and then around the curve right and up the road. And so I I think I think a couple telephone polls might need to be moved anyway. So, um, and that's, uh, all I have right now. Thank you.

Um, so just a reminder to the committee that Elizabeth is not here tonight. We'll be back next meeting. Um, so a few other updates from the city. Um, one, this is a a big day thanks to Steve and the team. Uh, we fully launched our on on our online permitting system today. So that was the last phase of public works and planning and zoning permits. Fire and city clerk's permits were launched last year. Um so a huge amount of work by Steve and Tom and Paul and lots of other folks. So um still some kinks to work out, but it is now live online. Um we received the bids for the FY27 paving schedule. Interestingly, it looks like our costs per ton um for paving are going down this year from last year, which is shocking. Um, so they are reviewing those bid responses and that will be on your the approval of that contract will be on your agenda next meeting on um, April 20th.

I know it's been out of oil, right?

I know. That's why Tom highlighted it. It is shocking. Um, we are finishing uh the FY26 paving um, now that the asphalt plants are reopening and prioritizing paving airport drive. So, you will see that if you drove to the um next what's it called? Next BTV, next TV. Um you probably noticed the airport parkway got really beat up this sum this winter. Um so they will be paving that likely uh the first two weeks of May. Um, as construction season opens, we are also, um, restarting the construction of the city center boardwalk project um, and hope that that is substantially complete by Memorial Day, so it can be fully used, contrary to what I may say, um, uh, for the summer, which is great. Um, and then just a reminder, um, because it will be right after our next council meeting, Eliminate Vermont is April 24th and 25th. If folks are interested in volunteering at that community event, there is a form online to do so or um at a minimum just come out and enjoy the street festival and the music and the art and your neighbors. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Jesse. Um moving on to item six, which is our consent agenda. And we have item 6A. Uh can you hear me, Ashley? Okay. 6A, which is uh consider and sign our dispersements and financial warrants. Item 6B, approve the updated local emergency management plan as presented in the documents. Item 6 C, award the contract to install fire suppression sprinklers at 575 Dorsa Street, which is the fire station, to Sawyer Sprinkler Service LLC. Item 6D, which is approve a resolution authorizing the city manager to apply for, accept, and expend grant funds from the Northern Borders Regional Commission for phase 2 of the East West Alternative Transportation Crossing, also known as the Walk Bike Bridge over I 89 and authorize the submittal of a letter of support on behalf of the city. Can I have a motion to approve the consent agenda?

Motion to approve. Second. We have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion? I'm just wondering um you know Steve provided a helpful update on item 60. Does would it make sense just for the community to let folks know where we are on? No, [laughter]

I I think I can do this. You're talking about the the bridge. Um so the uh bids for the as you as the committee may remember the uh walk bike bridge over the interstate came in high the first time we bid it. So we did some value engineering brought you back a substantial change request to Bepsi rebid it. That bid closed on Friday. Um we got three additional responses. Um they are within what the engineers predicted budget was. Um so give us a path forward to completing this project. Um, and we anticipate bringing you that contract to sign or approve authorized for signature at your next meeting on April 20th. So, really, really good news for the community and much more to come in the future.

Thank you. And when would that project start? Um, so it will start this summer construction season. Wow. Okay. And trees are coming down this week to meet permit conditions. I was told trees were coming down. I'm sorry. [laughter] Did you talk to the NRCC? Okay, never mind. Never mind. So, very good news. Thank you, Andrew. So, we have a motion to second. Any other discussion? All those in favor say I. I.

I. It's unanimous. Just want to point out that uh councelor Fitzgerald is not here tonight. She's not with us. So, there are just four of us. Uh great. So that was item six and now we'll go to item seven which is uh council discussion on convening a community task force in response to the actions of March 11th of this year on Dorset Street. That would be the ICE action that occurred. Um and I think uh Lori and Beth, you wanted this item on the agenda tonight. Do you want to lead the discussion on this?

Do you want to start Lori? So, um, in the week after or the the time between what happened on, uh, March 11th and our meeting on the 16th, um, I had a number of conversations with some of the community leaders of some of the organizations, uh, with Sheriff Hidleberg, who's who's online tonight, and others about, um the need for us to help heal within our community what's happened and more importantly well there are two phases to it. One is how do we bring our community back together in an effective way so that we're not feeling um like we've been divided and are fighting each other. And um secondly is how do we put together a really effective coordinated team so that when if or when something like this happens again we have some outline as to how we're going to communicate with each other, how we're going to moderate whatever we can do to help learn from some of the things that happened this first time around and do it better next time around whether it's a task force or a roundt or a uh committee I don't the term is not important but um as the elected leaders of our city I feel like it's incumbent upon us to step into that leadership role and to take specific action to try and help

mitigate what happened in our community during that time and to build bridges so that we have better response next time around throughout the community. Um the letter that I drafted that you've seen copies of um is just a letter to send out to find out what the level of interest is in doing something like this if we move forward with it. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered. How's it done? Who moderates it? Who's involved? Etc. Um, but I think that we as the leaders of this community really need to express to all our neighbors that this is something we take very seriously and want to establish a process for moving forward to rebuild our community trust and to be able to be better equipped to deal with something like this if it happens again. So, that's what I've brought forward and why. Um, and I brought it up briefly on the 16th and was concerned about time passing. Three weeks have gone by. Um, I'm leaving in two days for two weeks. So, I will have some availability but limited. But I think this is something that we really need to try to move forward. Um, can I go next? Yeah. Yeah. So, um,

yes. So, I I've given this an awful lot of thoughts, so I had to jot down my my comments on it. I totally agree with Lori. We need to I feel like we need to do something. We heard a lot of public comment um at the at the March 16th meeting. There have been a couple of Senate hearings. We have a report um that's imminent, I think. Uh it's going to come out soon. Um we heard from our police chief. We heard from other, you know, law enforcement leaders. Um, and there's still a tremendous amount of division and the the the PE, you know, the what happened that day is still not even clear to those of us who are just like observing footage and hearing testimony and um so I think, you know, I'm really glad we're having this discussion and I think there are a lot of things that we need to consider if the city council is going to be the body that's going to spearhead some something like this. this sort of effort. Um I I think obviously we need to define goals which Lori I agree with the goals that Lori laid out which would be um you know equally important goals. You know how do we how do we heal all the damage that has been done by this incident? Um and also um how do we prepare ourselves better for future ICE raids because this may not be the last one. Um, and when I say that, what I mean is really not um, you know, I I have some questions about how a formal body would be assembled to deal with this problem. So, I'd be in favor of kind of an informal, as Lori put it, like a roundt type of discussion or a very limited um you know, sort of trial discussion uh between I I'm not even sure who the players would be yet, who the stakeholders would be, but um but in in other words, I think we need to determine what types of conduct we can expect from different groups of people when there's an incident like

this. you know, if if people are going to, you know, block the door to a building, what are the expectations around that in terms of how law enforcement's going to respond so that people understand, you know, for example, if you lay down in the street and you're engaging in civil disobedience, this is what you can expect is going to happen, you know, because I think there's still a lot of confusion around that. Um, at least when I look at the videos and I listen to the testimony, there doesn't seem to be, you know, like everybody's not on the same page. So most importantly, I think we need to get some people together. I don't know who that would be. And just really hear each other, not just talk at each other, which is all we've been really given the opportunity to do at this point um in a public setting. Um so like I said, I would favor some sort of trial meeting. Um I also want to just name the fact that the immigrants who are the targets of ICE um may not feel safe participating in this sort of um this sort of group discussion because it may be risky for them. So I think that's an important consideration that the people who really need to be there may not be able to be there. Um so I think that's it's important to name that. Um and I I don't know how this would work but I think temperatures are still kind of high on this issue. Um there's still a lot of division over the facts of the incident. Um so I don't know how we ensure if we do this that that it doesn't turn into a fingerpointing exercise and that would you know that would immediately fall apart and if it falls apart in its infancy I don't think we get people back to the table after something like that. So that's I think that's why we should discuss it tonight. I don't know if that means uh we have a professional mediator. I don't know how that would work but um these are just ideas. Um, and I also I also want to express um concerns and I think I might have said this on March 16th when it came up that um I think that we ought to

be um vigilant about the city councilors being the leaders of a meeting like that because it could cross a line into us prescribing what we think the public should or shouldn't do and when they're protesting uh you know an incident like that. So I think you know I don't know who should be leading that uh endeavor but I don't know that we should be ones the ones at the whatever type of discussion ensues. Not sure that the optics will be correct if the city councilors are the one to I I don't even know know if there should be a leader. Maybe there should just be a mediator and and you know I'm just sort of trying to think through the structure of such a such a a body. Um and then you know another consideration that I wanted to raise was uh who do we invite? How inclusive do you be in something like this right out of the gate? You know do we are we are we inclusive which means we have to consider the fact that there may be some people in the community who don't agree with us on this issue and or agree with you know any one of us I guess. Um, it's not certain that we all agree. Um, but depending on who shows up for this, um, it might not work out. I guess I'll I'll say it that way without naming specific groups. Um, and what else was I hoping to Yeah. Other concerns? Yeah. So, wide tent or small tent, you know, do we keep it to a very small group initially? Um, and these are these are questions I just wanted to raise for discussion. Um, and then I have a question that I want to ask Jesse once this is, you know, once we've heard from everybody. I just have a question about uh something. So that's all I have to say. I have more just like questions and thoughts than I do um, you know, this is what, you know, suggestion of what we should do. So thank you.

Thanks, Beth. Looks like you want to talk.

I'd love to. Thank you, Tim. Um, so um, I agree with most of what was said and the goals and intent. Um I do have um a suggestion for what to do for what what I what I'd like to do what I think we should do which is kind of small and incremental steps. So um first I think we as a council should get together and talk again with the chief. I I still have a bunch of questions. I know we've have the afteraction report that we're all going to review but I think that would be really useful because we haven't had a disc a discussion yet about what we've heard. we haven't really had a chance to follow up with the chief except that that one event right after. So to me that's um as a first step um an important and necessary thing to do. Um following that as the next baby step that I think we should take is once we're kind of all on the same page invite um some of the leaders from migrant justice to sit with us. I I think just with the council and we we could think about who else but I I don't want a charged atmosphere. I want a neighbor to neighbor discussion. Um and I think if it's just the council and some leads from migrant justice, we can hopefully maybe not but hopefully have a good civil conversation where we we discuss our differences and perspectives and why and and share and talk. And out of that conversation, if it goes well, begin to answer some of the questions, Beth, that you're posing, like how would this work going forward if we do have a a larger meeting to talk about agreeing on practices and understandings. But I think without first having that that kind of connection and discussion, um those

further conversations are on less solid footing and less likely to succeed. So again, my my thoughts would be to have to plan on our agenda two specific meetings, the council with the chief and then the council with leaders from Magnet Justice and take it from there.

Thank you, Andrew. Um I I agree with the sentiment, right, and what what you want to try to accomplish. Um, I just have I probably have more questions than you or or almost the same number. Um, and I feel like uh I I'd like to see so I think the state needs to review the pol the fair and impartial policing policy. It may need an update in lie of what happened on March 11th. Um, I think when it was written it wasn't anticipated that March 11th could possibly could possibly happen if you can't hear me. Okay. And um and you know there obviously are roles for police departments and Vermont State Police in situations like that. And I don't know if they're well defined in the case where a federal authority is trying to exercise something like a judicial warrant or an administrative order or whatever it is, right? Um none of this would have happened if ICE hadn't taken any action at all. Right? So, I just want to point out that that is the primary cause and it's going to be here for a while longer and it could happen again in Burlington or in South B or somewhere, right? So, my question is if it were to happen again, what would this process be able to help have a better outcome, right? And and so that if if that were true, then I would support doing that. The question is how do we reconcile um our police departments and the Vermont state police and that policy and how everybody should behave including protesters so that whatever is needed to be accomplished is done without anybody getting really badly hurt because what happened on March 11th people did get hurt you know on protesters got hurt and some things were thrown at at police uh people as

well and so Um it's a really difficult question because you know these organiz these two groups have got um contrasting obligations right and then you also have federal federal supremacy laws versus state and that's another uh conflict as well. So, um, I would agree with Andrew that it would be nice to start with our report and then kind of work out from there, but I really want to hear at some point from the Vermont State Police as well. Um, it's going to be it's not going to be a short road to figuring out how to deal with this, but I think if people do get start talking to each other and we reach some levels of agreement, then if it does happen again, it won't be as bad as it was on March 11th. I hope. But remember, I mean, pro these protesters are extremely passionate about what they want to do. They're willing to lie down in front of a car to prevent people from being removed. I and I totally get that and I don't blame them for that passion. The problem is there's then that conflict between their health, right, their lives and, you know, others in the crowd. So, so I'm going to just jump back in again there relating to the two separate issues. The first issue of rebuilding trust and cooperation, maybe even collaboration within our community, the listening session that we had on the 16th, the listening sessions that they had in the legislature, having witnessed those and listened to them and watched them

and Burlington too. and Burlington too. My experience is that those did nothing to heal our community. In fact, my experience is that that they in many ways created a venue for particularly the protester side to talk at rather than to have a listening dialogue where people are really trying to understand what happened and what the culpability is all the way around. That did not happen. I think any public meeting because of the way meetings are held in public have that problem. And what I was bringing forward isn't the idea of a full council engagement. It's the council taking leadership to invite something to happen within the public. It might be only one or two counselors involved so that it doesn't have a quarum issue. And there can be actual conversations where people come down and have frank conversations with each other, not only about what happened, but when is it appropriate to bring um an ambulance on scene if something is happening? Does that come in beforehand or afterhand? How do we have channels of communication set up so that um if there's a young child that needs to be gotten out of a building, there's a way for it to happen. That happened. But I also spoke to somebody who was in the leadership of Indivisible who was at the at the protest and she said at that protest the protesters did not know who to trust within their own group because you have migrant justice, you have um indivisible

and other groups that are there. I would like to see us create an opening for those groups to come together and talk to each other and develop a strategy amongst themselves so that if there is a group that is going to uh do nonviolent civil disobedience, they know who they are and how they're participating with those that are going to do violent uh protesting versus those that want to be totally nonviolent. So, how do we open a door to say, listen, we recognize what's going on. How do we create a format for people to be able to talk together and get ready for the next time so that there is that communication and the letter that I wrote was just to reach out to people and say is this something you are interested in and then we could figure out what to do from there. But I I would like to find out if I would like to open that door and see if there's the interest in following that kind of leadership to bring our community together.

So, um, a primary question that I have, and again, I I think that, um, I mean, I'd like to see something happen. I mean, this is unprecedented. I don't know how you do something like this. Um, but my my primary question is, you know, if you had interest from a number of parties, you know, assuming that we do something slightly different from what Andrew suggested, um, who would be mediating that meeting or discussion? You know, I I I I'm I'm asking the question. And I think it's I think it's an important um question to ask because you know um typically there's someone who's sort of guiding a discussion if it's not a formal meeting. If it's a formal meeting then obviously there people leading the meeting and I think that gets in some fraught territory if someone's claiming a leadership role in this. So um I'm putting the question out there. Um you know there was a professional mediator who commented at one of the hearings. I think it was the public hearing where the public gave testimony. Um, so somebody like that would be very valuable. I don't know if you can just put a call out for someone involved. I don't know. I'm I'm sort of deferring to all of you because you're, you know, far more um, uh, tested than I am in this role. So, uh, anyway,

I think those questions are critical. Yeah. If we put out an invitation and don't get any feedback, we don't need to answer that question. If we put out an invitation and we get a group of people saying or a number of people saying we want to engage in this conversation then we take the next step and say how do we organize this? What's the format? What's the agenda? How do we do it so that it can be effective? Those questions all have to be answered. I totally agree.

Yeah. So I think um again that we should try and answer some of those questions beforehand with smaller baby steps. And I think that um we could have a full council meeting like we have our working session meetings where we invite a few leaders for migrant justice where we talk to them to try and get on the same page, try and rebuild trust, ask them their thoughts on some of these things. How would you like to move forward? Would you mind move forward? um what might it look like? Um and start with those baby steps I think is my perspective um much more likely to lead to success.

So Andrew, you keep talking about migrant justice. I'm curious if you think they're the only ones to reach out to for the first step. Yes. Oh, for the first step. Yes.

That that's what that's that's how I would do the first step to keep it simple. We can have a subsequent meeting with some other groups. Not too It doesn't need to be a whole, you know, we need to invite everyone. We, the migrant justice folks were clearly the the leaders there. Um, Will Lambert has been very outspoken. Um, and I think that that's the right first step to have a conversation, see if we can rebuild trust, see if there's any trust there to begin to have the kind of conversation, Gloria, that you want to have. Let's have a discussion. The so communication is really important, right? And there was no communication before March 11th happened because there was no expectation that ICE would conduct a raid, right? Well, I mean, you know, I mean, it happened in Minnesota, right? With some grave consequences, you know, but my point is that we, you know, I mean, it's happened in in little bits and pieces, you know, at different dairy farms or at the airport, you know, onesie twoosy type thing, but not like it happened in March. And the point is that that there was no precommunication among different groups to understand what the expectations are, right? And now we've had this thing that happened and so now we have a lot of different expectations, right? So if if this if the state and our police departments can think about what went right and what didn't go right and how to respond more appropriately in the future. And then if these other organizations like justice indivisible if if they would care to communicate about what their expectation is then normalizing those expect expectations might result in a better outcome for everybody because I don't think it's going to be nothing's going to be perfect right because there are always outliers and behaviors on you know but but just trying to normalize what people think is going to happen because it's already happened once and if we have

small changes in behaviors it might be better for everybody. So Tim, I'm talking about something slightly different though. So yeah, there's obviously the police have to give their report and everyone needs to digest that. I'm I'm really talking about um rebuilding trust between us as leaders and the people that spoke because there were just two very very different understandings and we haven't spoken together about that and there's going to be questions that are resolved exactly what the nuances of the policy say and we're not experts on that. We're not going to be able to do that and we'll let the experts do that. But there's a lot to talk about other than that, which is to help rebuild trust and the understandings of what everyone was trying to do there that day. What were the goals? What was the intent? What was the purpose? And we just haven't connected on that. And that I think is a really really important conversation to have.

I agree with that. I think it's also important to you. I I totally agree. Um, and I would add that, you know, that would also be a foundation for determining what not rules or guidelines, but just expectations there would be, as Tim put it, between the different parties at at the at the, you know, potentially next uh uh skirmish, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. So Lori, would you be okay having those two meetings as as two baby steps possibly leading to a task force?

You're gone for two weeks. I'm gone for two weeks. So what happens over the next two I mean if you make this all happen over the next two weeks that would be great. I personally would like to see a letter go out to find out what the level of interest is among the leadership of these different groups to potentially get together. That could be just preemptive or work that's done in parallel or in preparation. There are two things I'm concerned about, Andrew. One is one is um starting the process of getting our community talking to each other for collaboration and and and deescalation. The other is the creation of a South Burlington or a community Burlington, Wooki, Shelburn, etc. We don't know where this is going to happen again next, but developing some sort of clear emergency response plan that is coordinated amongst all the groups that are involved so that if something like this happens again, there's some outline for how we can manage things better.

My concern question, you know, um

how would our how how How do our first responders? When do they engage? When don't they engage? And that doesn't just mean uh law enforcement, it can mean paramedics, etc. How do what's the setup so that when something like this happens, there's better coordination amongst the whole community. So Lord, the I I agree with the goals. My my concern about the staging of this is that if we send that letter out now, it um sets up an expectation of having this process before we've thought through or even begun to to ask all the right questions. I think we need to I think we need to flesh this out more with conversation before we set that expectation up. It's the it's the right end goal. I just don't think it's ripe. I

if I understand correctly, Lori is just pro proposing that we send the letter. He's not proposing that we necessarily act upon it. And these two things could both happen, right? I mean, I don't think you even need to send a letter. So, I would I mean, I would send the letter. I'd love to see this. Why don't you just call just contact?

I'm not going to contact unless there's agreement on this committee that we want that to happen. I could do it as an individual Yeah. member of the community, but um I would like to see it something that is sanctioned by the council and well I've just put out my thoughts. I won't I will do what I do. If the council doesn't agree with that, that's on the record and that's fine. But that's what I would like to see happen.

Can we agree as a council have two meetings and after that second meeting come back to the question of the letter? If that's what the council agrees to, that's fine. I wouldn't do it that way. I think I think that that right now the stakes are too high to take that long, Andrew. Personally, and I don't think that getting some of the leaders of our community together to have a conversation is a risk. I think it's a risk that's worth taking. So, I hear that's the way you want to do it. And if everybody agrees that's fine. I respectfully don't agree with that. So that's okay. I I personally would like to

Did you want to say something? May I talk? Oh, I don't mean to interrupt you though. Do we have genius point? I've already talked. Go ahead. Do we have a city manager here?

We do. Um, so I'm I I'm not going to weigh in on on this process. I think this really is a decision of the four of you over time how you want to how you want to carry a leadership role like that. I do want to talk about what we are doing internally um and what you can expect from your professional staff moving forward. So I think several of you have talked about this that it is still to the community um we don't really know what happened on that day. It is not clear what happened on that day. It was not clear why decisions were made. Um I think that that is very fair. Um and I want to walk you through what we always do in emergency response and what we are doing in this emergency response. So first and foremost within the first 24 hours to 48 hours we review our um first responder actions according to our policies to make sure there wasn't a policy violation. So that is what we started with. We are then going through a series of after what's called afteraction conversations that include um the professionals who were engaged at the scene, what what we did well, what we could have done better, what we learned, and what do we do with that information, how do we make a plan for moving forward. Um so we are wrapping that work up. We intend to bring you that report including a chronology from our perspective of what happened um at your April 20th council meeting. Um I think f based on that I hope that you can use that information and the community can use that information as our perspective of not only what happened but what we believe are how we should move forward from our operations. Um, I think as I hear you talking about things, I think I guess a hope I have coming out of that is that there can be um many parties moving towards the middle about what a shared understanding

of what happened is. I don't think we're ever going to get a fully shared understanding, but I hope we get closer to that. Um, I hope we also get closer to um, a shared acknowledgement of the harm that was done to all. Um, and what those Beth, you talked about this a little, what those what is going to happen in the future as certain behaviors show up by by professionals, by me members of our community, by informal leaders in our community and other formal leaders in our community. I don't think we have that acknowledgment of harm that was done all around yet and we're going to have to develop that to have some of these conversations. Um and then ideally coming to a set of goals or expectations about in the future if this if X happens Y is going to happen. You know we are we as public safety professionals are constrained by the law. It is very clear why we react when we react the way we do. um that is not as clear with a group of neighbors who may identify as peaceful protesters, as protesters, as protectors, as something else. Um and how we come to that shared agreement I think is is important and going to be a challenge. The other thing I will just note um as we think about this logistically, obviously we are the leaders in South Burlington and we have an obligation to our community. The reality is some of the groups we're talking about and we saw this on the 16th, you know, most half of those folks were not from South Burlington and a lot of the um formal and informal networks are made are one network for a region or a state. So as we are asking of them for partnership and conversation and dialogue, it is possible that many other communities in this, you know, many other political designations are going to be asking the same thing. Um, and how do we think

about doing that for our neighbors for South Burlington, but also using that knowledge for our greater neighbors in Jenny County? because the reality is very few of us spend all of our one our days only in one of our communities. Um and certainly asking um asking what I think of as kind of community development groups for which there is one in a state to have repeated conversations I think is an added not not only a risk but a burden to place onto them. Um and how do we think about that and how we hold that? So, those are those are my thoughts and what you can expect from us on April 20th.

Just a thought, um there are um back when the school district was going through a bit of turmoil about a name change, right? uh there was a faith-based approach taken at a particular uh church where community members got together and and got broke into groups to talk about the things that happened and and how how they felt about it and stuff like that. So it was a communication fostering um you know meeting and um I I think it was productive. It was interesting. Um, I'm just saying that there's there's room for that because I'm sure that there are faith-based groups that are active, you know, in, you know, in the community, right, in the interests of the immigrants as well. So,

and reaching out and making that happen is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't have a set agenda for what any of it looks like, but that we take a leadership role in saying community, this is something we need to do. So, I do think it's important for us to come out of this meeting with some action steps. So, um, can we at least [clears throat] agree that as a council we all get together with the chief to talk about what happened when we get the report? Isn't that going to happen on the 20th? Are we going to have I mean, it's a I guess I thought of it more as a working group back and forth. Is that is that what it's going to be or is

so we will present our afteraction report and chronology of the events to you and obvious anytime we presentation we have conversation with you about it. Okay. I mean and then we can discuss what we heard from the public at that session too and and and broaden it presumably. So this is an afteraction report about city operations. What you all do with that I think could be an addendum to that, a cover, you know, a statement on that. Um, yeah, I would just like for us to have an opportunity to talk about what we all heard, I guess. And is that the meeting that you anticipate we would do that in?

Um, sure. Okay, that's fine. Then then we'll do that. And I'd love to schedule another meeting. As I said, the magnet justice, we we could talk about it at the meeting on the 20th, but I'd love to do that now. I know you and I, Tim, talked about putting a call to try and do that. I think that's a useful step. So, I had a proposed step which sounds like we're not going to take. If you want to take that step, I certainly would not block it at all. So I move then that we wait we want to have public comment.

Who had their hand up first? So Sher has line. Okay. Yeah. Come on down. Make sure the light is on and identify yourself, please.

Hi, I'm Julie Lel. I live in Laurel Hill. Thank you first for doing this work that you're doing. This is a very difficult time and I um wish I had had comments ready. Um but there's so much you've said tonight that I want to respond to and so I'm responding without comments because this is urgent. I'm [clears throat] very concerned that you didn't think this was coming to our community. I'm very concerned that we didn't take more away from Minnesota. We saw what's happening. We know our federal government is not behaving lawfully. We know they came to our community a month ago under illegal pretenses and arrested our neighbors. I appreciate the work migrant justice is doing. They're they're doing amazing, incredible work. They do not represent me. You are my elected officials. You represent my community. You represent and hire our police force. I would like to call on them to protect my neighbors who are under attack. So please, please don't hesitate to have this conversation. As Lori has already said, we need to come together as a community that I was not there on March 11th. I wasn't able to be because of a medical issue that day, but I was following it closely and I would have been there and I would have been terrified because people were not behaving in a manner to protect one another and that includes some people who apparently were acting poorly, but it includes our police officers, whether that was SB or BSP. And so, we need this meeting sooner than later. Jesse, I really appreciate the work that you're talking about. It sounds very thorough. It sounds like a very recent approach. April 20th is school break. Um I very much encourage you to have a public conversation, too.

This is actually my very first um city hall meeting I've ever been to because I this issue really is just so fundamentally important to me. So, thank you. And I think if you hear anything from me, please act with urgency on this because our community is very concerned and very nervous for our neighbors and ourselves. Thank you very much,

Ashley in South Burlington. Again, um Ashley, can you remove your mask while you talk? Is that okay?

Yeah, as long as you guys aren't coughing, which nobody has been today. Um I just because it got repeated many many times today. I'm not wellversed in this but the impartial policing thing I think migrant injustice was actually involved with the state in implementing that or something. Um, and so if you guys can correct me, I I think that was made earlier this year specifically for what happened to prevent it. So that might irritate people without knowing and uh just that's but yeah normally baby steps is the only thing that really works for me but in this case I we've seen this thing coming this was coming before I moved here it was I was just further from it uh by moving here. Thank you.

Uh want to go online for just for share.

Hi folks. Thank you for your patience. Can you hear me now? Can you get closer to your microphone share?

I sure can my friend. I'm feeling a little sad that I can't figure out how to get my um screen to work so that you can actually see my eyes. Um, but look at that big smile of me working on Lake Champlne on the ferry. That'll have to do to let you know my personality and my heart. Um, I really want to thank you for um, wrestling with this. Um, and I also want to encourage you to act a little bit more quickly than the steps I'm hearing you outline. Um, I did send every city council member, uh, except for our newest member, um, a letter on February 17th asking the council to please formulate a South Burlington emergency response plan to the fact that it was very apparent and continues to be apparent that ICE was operating openly in our neighborhoods, especially closely to Willist. which keeps getting a little bit closer to South Burlington. And it was not a matter of if this would happen, it was a matter of when this would happen. So, here's what I'm hearing from tonight. Um, if you have an action plan coming, I think the action plan is going to be very beneficial because what needs to happen now is an umbrella that identifies all of the people that attempted from different organizations, including the city, to respond in a safe way. We need to look at who those were and what did go well

and what didn't go well. And from that you can form small action groups that talk about what how people will interface and interact. I think you absolutely need to trust that there is a framework for responding that will increase the level of safety, increase the level of trust of the community by them participating in small little action groups and everybody understanding their role and responsibilities. when another incident like this happens. Um, I don't think there's any problem with goodwill and I think we're all emotional about what happened. And so we need to sort of take some deep breaths and not worry so much about what could happen if different groups were brought together, but stay enormously focused on we're bringing groups together because that is where the wisdom sits. the little nuggets. So for example, in from my perspective as someone who has been involved in community work before, there should have been a rescue squad there. when our police chief was told by the ICE folks that he was talking to in Washington and in Boston that ICE was going in once they had that

warrant. No matter what it took, very quietly, non lights and siren, a rescue squad should have shown up at an assigned station, not right in the mix, to be ready to receive any kind of help that was needed either by police or by the protectors that were there. Now, the reason I'm pointing out this one is it's in some ways the simplest. Indivisible is highly organized and has tremendous training tapes.

Sher, you you've gone over three or four minutes now. Can you can you sum up?

Well, so what I will speed up, I'm I'm talking deliberately so that I'm clear. I apologize and thank you for the time. Um, indivisible is very organized. There are people trained with an indivisible to provide rescue and you had spontaneous community members providing first aid because they were professionals. Those folks need to get into a conversation with the rescue squad, with the chief of police around when we have an incident like that, how will the volunteers that are there specifically to help with things uh like injuries work in conjunction with our town rescue? These are the kinds of little nuggets that need to built be built along the line. I'm wondering, I have a question for you. Have the schools and the superintendent sat down and said to themselves March 11th happened. How are we looking at our emergency response plans for an active shooter and now including what we do if ICE shows up at our school? How are they preparing better for the fact that this incident happened close to and in front of the high school, the middle school, and close to an elementary school. They have work to do and they have the frameworks that you're talking about to do it. So, I would just want to say one more thing. I'm very happy to work as a community member to help this come alive and be something this committee will do more healing as well as getting to face faith leaders which is appropriate.

I would, Lori, I would hold back on the letter for a minute, a breath, because I think the action report will lead to some very concrete things about why that group would come together. like what comes out of the action report that would go into the letter that are specific that you all feel are velcro for community members coming in. Okay, Shar almost done.

Yes. So, I would just say develop the umbrella. I urge you to watch the tapes that are out for training to get some of the language and the the thinking and the training under in your wheelhouse. And there are people in Minnesota now coming to communities. You may have to spend some money training communities about how to put together exactly what Loriy's asking for and what I really believe for myself is appropriate. There are Minnesota folks prepared to come and help towns develop and they have been doing it and people have been going to Minnesota to get that training as well. And so I encourage you to explore that because you're right, you want the right people leading the discussions and helping you form a framework in order to have this successful. And it will be successful. We're a great town. You're great people. And I will say one more time that chief of police that we have, that officer, he opened his

Okay. Okay. Sher. Sher, we're not going to rehash that whole thing again. All right. We're gonna have other people in the audience that want to speak right now. So, we're going to move on, but thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right, gentlemen. Yeah, come up. [clears throat] And then after you, the other man. Okay.

Hello. I'm Chris Guy, local crank. Iron Hayes. Um, I just want to say I think it's great that you're looking for opportunities to like find legitimacy again in order to like heal this divide. Uh, but I don't know if we can heal this divide while the knife is still in us. Um, we have filmed instances of police hurting people, throwing to the ground, causing significant damage, hurting people. Um, and I think all this talk about like how can we make sure the protesters act better is going to fall in deaf ears unless we try and keep our own house in order. um what are we doing in order to try and make sure that the police don't do this again? Are we going to hold any of them accountable for their actions on those days? Um and even if they aren't selfrington police, is there anything we can do in order to encourage these other police departments to hold their people accountable? Um because yeah, I feel like the legitimacy you want is not going to come unless um yeah, the unless the the city council side is is also more than just talk. Um so, thank you so much. Thank you very much.

Hello, Drew Shatzer, resident. Repeat your name, please.

Drew Shatzer. Uh, I've heard a lot tonight. Uh, kind of two themes repeated from pretty much everybody here and and on this side, it's um trust and expectations. That's pretty much what I have to say is framed around. I didn't really anything because I wanted to really hear what you guys had to say before I spoke. So, I'll try to organize my thoughts well. Um, I also want to clarify Yeah. Uh, and and, uh, manager Baker mentioned that, uh, there's kind of I think we we need to clarify the language of how we talk about what happened on the 11th that, you know, there's rallies like things that happened two weekends ago, the No Kings rally, uh, where that's more of like a proactive thing. People show up for, they're generally safe. you know, bring your kids to them. It's a way to organize and connect with other people that like like-minded people in your community. There's protests where it's more reactive, can be proactive, but it's in general like a response to something. We're going to show up and voice our disapproval kind of like what you were suggesting uh Councilman Barrett at the last meeting, how you know, you expected maybe community members to voice their discontent. But I I'll say this was not a protest as as as has been said before. This was a protection by community members preventing unlawful not lawful enforcement but unlawful detention and detainment. And it's not like we have no reason to uh to think that this would happen. We've been seeing it for a year now happen all over the country. people are prepared to put their bodies on the line to prevent unlawful uh action. So, um I think calling it protesters, calling it a protest is not an accurate way to describe what happened. and we're not going to be able to prepare for what comes next if we're, you know, not not

being accurate or or so I don't think that there's a whole lot of value to talk about what happened on the 11th and as much as Yeah. what what what we will do better next time um tonight. So I think that the expectation in particular around the duty to intervene is what is going to be the most important thing for this body to tackle because I don't want to to disillusion you guys but this this conversation's happening. It's been happening. Our community is very connected um very organized as as has been mentioned. um they were prepared for something like this and they will be back even more prepared. Like right now there's groups in our neighborhoods making rapid response kits. There's people going to Lowe's and and Home Depot and buying protective equipment. Um this is going to continue. This organization is going to continue with or without you guys. So I think in particular Councilman Chalnick's suggestion is not a really um good way to encourage or or to try to gain that trust back from the community. I don't think even migrant justice, not to speak for them, but would be very interested in attending something like you're suggesting solely like on your terms. This isn't really about you guys. If you want to be part of this community conversation and this community solution, which I I hope you do, it's not going to be by you guys' mandate. uh what you think should happen if you want a seat at the table. I I think you're going to have to kind of change your

approach. I like the way uh Councilman Smith is um suggesting of it, you know, being more of a an invitation rather than we're going to pick you to talk to and you're going to listen to us and we're going to talk to the police and a closed door first and and then, you know, tell you what we think. I think that's led to a lot of this community mistrust. Um, you know, I was really embarrassed. That's not what I was saying.

Um, I was really embarrassed to hear pretty much everyone on the stage condemn our community members at our last city council meeting. I didn't hear that kind of language at any other u meeting like this I' I've been to. Um, and I think another thing you should perhaps consider is an apology. I know a lot of information has come out since the 16th, but I was shocked to hear the way you guys addressed our community members, and I don't think you're going to have a very um easy time gaining back our trust if that's the way if that's the foot forward you're leaning on. You know what I mean? I think you should maybe take a step back and consider the words that you used last time. And I don't think an apology would be um too much to ask. But um anyway, so I think just getting back to um what the expectations are to wrap up my thoughts. I know it's probably this unlikely dream for any community to have a clear-cut expectation of what the duty to intervene means. And I don't think any law enforcement agency is going to want to say they're going to stand toe-to-toe with another agency who they think is maybe acting unlawfully. You know, I I totally understand the idea of even if I were being if my rights were being violated by a law enforcement officer, the last thing I know to do is to resist and to fight them in in the street. I have to go to court and plead my case there and say, "My rights were violated." what you know and then sue the city for $50,000 or whatever, you know, but but I get that idea of not standing toe-to-toe against ICE in the street. That is a very big ask and it's it's it's probably an impossible ask. And so, as Chief um Bro said, he he didn't believe he had any influence over ISIS um

actions that day. He offered many suggestions that went unheeded. And uh so I think if that's the expectation, if if it's unrealistic to expect our law our local law enforcement to say what you're doing is unlawful and we're not going to let you do it, which again has been echoed by the federal judge who oversaw what happened that day, who basically said all these people's rights were violated. They were unlawfully arrested, unlawfully. You know, uh you know, I think that's indisputable at this point. Maybe at the time it was happening, our law enforcement may not have been equipped to say what you're doing is unlawful and we're not going to let you do it. But now in hindsight, we can say they were acting unlawfully and next time maybe we should have um a different a different way that our law enforcement will respond to it. But last point,

and you you're offering a very interesting legal problem right there. Yeah. And I don't have an answer for it and I don't know if other people do either. So just be careful about how you ask that question, right? Because it it poses a lot of serious, you know, issues. Absolutely. And then are you almost finished?

Yeah. To to to the last point to kind of acknowledge what you just said is if our law enforcement don't feel empowered to do that to to exercise their duty to intervene against federal law enforcement that is acting unlawfully, then unfortunately they they don't belong there. And as a good friend of mine said to the legislative hearing last week, um if they're not able to to do that, then they should stay out of the neighborhood and let us do that job as human beings because, you know, it'd be nice if they would do it with their weapons and their guns and their training. But if they can't, then let us do it and don't brutalize us for doing it or make it easier for ICE to do what they're doing. So, thank you.

Thank you. Any other comments? Ashley, you've already spoken. We've already taken a lot of testimony. Thank you very much, though. Nobody else? Nobody online? All right. So, from the public, we've heard from us.

I will say this again. Um I think we need a different um form for having these conversations. It's not so formal where we can have interaction with some of the folks speaking with us because I I heard a lot again tonight that I'd love to respond to, but it's just not the right venue for doing that here. So, I would again ask that we try and do that with I think it's migrant justice, maybe it's not, but I think it is. And start there. And if they, you know, don't want to come and talk to us, well, that's fine. It's not it's not on our terms. I'm suggesting a back and forth conversation. Then we'll we'll figure out another way forward. I think what these comments um said to me is that there's still a lot of um we're not all on the same page about how this should be addressed in the future, what happened that day, uh what the role of the police is, what the role of the you know, I'm not telling anyone what the role is in protest. People are allowed to protest however they see fit. Um if that crosses into violence, then that's a different story in my opinion. But anyway, all that said, what is the what is the mechanism for assembling this group informally without us being as and I made the point that I think if we're you know the leaders it it's it's not the right uh it's not the right uh uh format. Um so so what would be the mechanism for creating this discussion or you know roundt where we had and I I again what another thing that comes out for me is that we really need someone who's a trained uh mediator to be there because I'm I'm really concerned that there's going to be a lot of fingerpointing and um it could devolve into you know just people getting upset and walking out um

because there's still a lot of disagreement. So, I you know, again, I'm really new here. I don't know what the format is for assembling such a group of people. I don't even know if city hall would be the right place to do that. I don't know if that would be perceived as too much on our turf. Um, I mean, our turf being, you know, we're community members as well. So, uh, I'm not sure I would agree with that characterization. But in any case, I'm I'm going to put that to you, Jesse, because I don't really know what what the the the the logistics would be of assembling this group of people. And I I happen to think that more than migrant justice needs to be there because migrant justice has one, you know, perspective and one way of uh you know, or organizing people. And then, you know, indivisible, which you know, I'm part of Indivisible. I think it's you know, an incredibly wellorganized group. uh you know their their primary uh premise is nonviolence you know so there's a different you know slightly different and I'm not saying that migrant justice uh condones violence but there's a different flavor different set of people different set of um you know different functions that they perform in in the you know in the in the realm of protest and resistance so anyway I think we need to figure this out and and uh get moving on it I just don't know what the next step would I'm going to make a motion and if it fails it fails. I'd like to move that after we have the conversation with the chief we as a council invite folks from migrant justice to have a round table up on the third floor where we can have more informal conversation.

Um that would have to be a one meeting if it was more than Yeah. Yeah. One meeting. Okay. Yeah. Public's invited. Yeah, of course. Okay. Um well is it just just that that one group that one group to start? We could we could start with indivisible as a as a second meeting and then maybe have them together. Might want to have them together. We we could I I I wanted my personal perspective is to keep it simpler. The more voices there, the more complicated it's going to get to to talk these things through. The more divergent I think it's going to get more complicated. So I'd like to keep it simple. add those those two major groups there with

that if that's if if you like to do it that way. I'm fine to do it that way. I I prefer to do it simpler, but if that's your preference, I'm fine to do that as well. I'll second that. So, we have a motion to and some discussion. Discussion.

Some discussion. My concern is I think that inviting a group to a council meeting is not a conducive place to really have open heartfelt conversation. I think having an invitation to get together with a smaller group that is an informal meeting that is um that is quote not a meeting of the public or in the public in the same way would have a chance to have much more effective dialogue. not to exclude people, but to create an environment where there's safety and and humility on all sides. I don't think that we have the answer, and I don't think that sitting in a in a city council meeting is necessarily the right format. I I won't I won't block it, but I'm just throwing out my thoughts around around how to move forward. It

it starts dialogue. We can have those meetings, too. Lori, like I said, I I'm not going to block it. I just would probably choose to do it differently. I would choose to do it differently as well. I would choose to do it differently. So, let's take the vote. All those in favor say I. I. Opposed. Nay. You got three eyes. So, I didn't hear what you said. You said nay. I You said I. Okay. So, it's three1. So, the motion passes. Okay. No, no. Four. Oh, you said. Oh, I when I said nay, you raised your hand. I was like, okay. So, we have four eyes. Thank you. So, it's unanimous. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. We'll start there.

And I think it's really important to have Elizabeth part of this conversation, too. I'm sorry she's not here tonight. She's coming back. Anything else on that? All right. Great. So, Tim, will you I guess we need to talk about how to how to do that. Say again. We need to talk about how to do that. How to do that? How would we do that?

So, I think if I'm interpreting the motion correctly, I think what we're asking for is to do what staff had planned to do initially at your April 20th meeting, uh, which is the first part of your after a conversation with the chief. So, that conversation could be part of the after action. Chief, jump in here if I'm saying anything wrong. Um, and then I think the question back to the council is if that second conversation um on the third floor with a zoom or in public meeting but sitting more around a table um do you want to do that at your at your at a special meeting or Okay, so I need a date for a special

where where it's convenient for the folks that we want to invite. Ah, okay. So, you're going to ask me to reach out to No, I don't know. I I I raised a question of how how to do it. I'm not saying you you need to do it, Jesse. Oh, I wasn't accusing you of saying that. I was saying like to move this forward, you could ask me to reach out to Okay. migrant justice and um Indivisible and see and invite them to a special meeting of the council sometime after April 20th. um and get some dates and try and coordinate all of you that I will as as a back and forth conversation

of equals talking to each other. It's not us lecturing them. I hope we don't get lectured. We want to have a conversation. Okay. And presumably there will be time in there for public. Well, is that right? A little bit. I mean, how do you do that? A little bit. Yeah. Well, who's who's going to be running this meeting? See, that's my concern about meeting. We're going to have an agenda and Okay. The chair is there. Okay. Will Lambbeck. I pronounced his name incorrectly before. What's that? So, you could ask me to try and find a facilitator.

Yeah. Could do that, too. I think that's very important actually to have a facilitator. Yeah. Sorry, I should talk to the chair about that. [laughter] Fine. I I I would love to first try it without that. And I think we're I think just bringing the people in and having a conversation. Just have a conversation. If the conversation doesn't go well, we can do a follow-up facilitator. If the conversation doesn't go well, people may not come back to the table. That's my concern. I don't think there's anything to be lost by having a facilitator. I would go that if we invite people for this conversation, it'll be it'll be productive.

I would go along with not having a facilitator provided it is um expressed that while it is a city council meeting and the city council has put forth the agenda, it is a meeting of equals. It is not a meeting run by the city. That's how it should be. Well, when we get to the agenda item, it's a back and forth. Yes. But it's not it's not you saying this is how it's going to giving people time, you know, we're not going to give we're not going to give them time. No, the principal people are the ones we're going to be talking to because they're representatives and they're the ones that we want to talk to. Yes. Yes. It's going to be an open conversation and I think it's very important to have indivisible there.

Okay. Let's not have too many. Maybe then two from each organization. Two two or three people from each organization. Something like that. Right. So, we have a total of like 10 people around the table. Yeah. Excellent. Okay. One more clarifying question. Yes. Are you open to doing this during the day or are you trying to do this at night? When whenever is convenient for Indivisible justice. Yes. Yes. I would have to just present you with a caveat. If I have clinical duties that day, I won't be able to be there and I really want to be there. So, if we could, you know, So, we have to make it for you, too. Wednesday's better for you. Wednesdays are better for me. Yeah.

Okay. All right. We're on the same page. We have an action item. Good. All right. Oh, we're going to take a break for five minutes right now. Thank you very much. And we even had a unanimous vote. We did.

All right, we're back and we're going to pick up with item eight, which is uh EV charging stations analysis and proposed fee updates. I propose we take the second fee proposal. All those in favor? Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead. [laughter] Just kidding.

We want to hear the story. Thank you. Um Betina amiggas, climate action manager. I'm here to talk to you about um a short analysis we conducted um on the use of the EV charging stations here at behind city hall. um and about potentially um changing the fee structure or um at least updating the the fees. So the current conditions are that we have resolution 23 20237 which is a very short resolution um in which city council um started charging for uh the use of the EV charging stations here. Um and the point of that was to be able to recover the costs of the electrical power used to power those stations. Um and that fee was set at 0.22 um dollars per kilowatt hour or 22 cents per kilowatt hour. Um those fees are no longer covering our electricity course costs. Um the charge point charges us a 10% um fee on every um on on every session. Um, and the electricity costs average now starting in October 2025 have been about uh 23 and a half cents per kilowatt hour. So, if we left it at as is, if the council decided not to take no action, then the city would potentially subsidize EV charging by about $1,100 this year. So, um, that's why I'm here. the stations have really had a major

increase in use. So looking at 2024, that's the dash line. Um and 2025, that's the red line, we see um 54% more electricity consumed. That's what we're seeing in that graph, the electricity per month. And um in number of sessions is 32% more sessions. and we analyzed and there's another report that's in the agenda that folks can look at in more detail. Um we looked at um the charging and most charging is occurring on weekdays and during the daytime hours and most sessions average two hours or less.

Why is August and September such a dip? It could be vacations or the fact that a mileage goes up when the weather's really warm. That's really interesting. I do not know. Okay.

Um so we analyzed and we um came up with four uh fee scenarios. The royal we I'm sorry. I really I should say I came up with four fee scenarios um to propose to you. Uh one of them is a flat break even rate of 26 cents per kilowatt hour. Um with that rate um 10% goes to charge point and the rest covers our electricity cost. Um then at differential break even rates of 27 cents per day and 24 cents at night. And the idea there being um people who charge during the day pay a little bit more so that those um charging at night pay a little bit less. Um the point is to try to help residents that might not be able to charge at home because they do not maybe they are in a multi-unit building or maybe they um cannot afford to put a charger or they would have to upgrade their electrical system etc. Um and so trying to get them a more favorable rate um in that night charging. Um then uh the third one is a flat 15% profit margin rate of 31 cents per kilowatt hour. Um and the fourth one is a differential 15% profit margin rate which with 32 cents during the day and 28 cents at night. And so, as I mentioned, the differential rates would allow those without a charger to have a more affordable source of EV charging. Um, and if we if you decided to um add a small profit margin, the idea would be to channel that into a fund that could potentially help us build out the EV infrastructure, which we know we need to

build out um for our climate action goals. Any any questions until then or Just a quick one. Sorry. Just a um I'm curious about the 23 and a half cents. Um do so does GMP charge different rates to commercial? Yes. Than to residential? Yes. Does this include our solar? No.

So it is likely that the 23 and a half would go down a bit. It would be a little bit less than that during the summer. It is also likely that the rates will increase again in October and winter time is when we're in worse shape. So, and we don't get discounts for um charging at night. The the EV chargers are in the same meter as the building. So, there is no separate metering for the EV chargers at the at this building. Um, so whatever the whole building is at, that's where we're at. Um,

we had different, um, charges. Would we be able to get the benefit?

So, GMP currently does not have a specific commercial EV charging rate. They're working on it. What you can do is if you have them metered separately, you can get rate six for about 21 and something. I It's 20. It's between 21 and 22 cents um per kilo hour. So the chargers that we're installing at the police department, we're h they're going to have their own meter and we could use take advantage of that rate. Um and potentially if they come up with something else that does look at their peaks or else we could take advantage of that, but that we're not set up for that here. And do we have a peak demand meter on this building?

We do. So rates are really dependent on what that peak is every month. They So we have a flexible load management um arrangement with them and that has also changed over the last couple of years. So that's why it's really hard to pinpoint exactly what we're paying every month, right, for electricity when So to simplify what we did is we we looked at

the um and that was Lou. Thank you, Lou. Um energy project manager. He looked at all the invoices and all the charges that were strictly for the kilowatt hours. So none of the fixed rates and um got a number from that. assuming that we will want to continue having electric service to this building anyway. So, so Betina, I'm just curious why you chose a 15% profit margin and not something higher or lower. Was it random or did you base it on some precedent?

I will admit it was it was a little bit random. Um I I'm not comfortable increasing them very much. I do want to have this as a service. And so I yeah, it was definitely a what is a you know googling what could be a modest profit margin as opposed to an aggressive profit margin or a you know very low profit margin.

Okay. Thanks. So, so just to um sort of draw the the connection between these rates and what a 3,000 pound EV that gets, let's say, five miles to the kilowatt hour equivalent is, right? Uh for example, my Prius Prime, Sprite. [laughter] So, so basically a 31 cents kilowatt hour is the equivalent of about $3.30 a gallon just just for comparison. But that's a lightweight car, right? As you go up in weight, that price per equivalent gallon goes up even more and more and more until you get to the Cadillac IQ, which is 9,000 pounds, which is significantly more. So anyway, um, no, no, no, it works out. It works out. Um, because the car normally gets on the highway with gasoline about 55 miles per gallon if you drive around 70, 65, 70 miles an hour. So, um, is there a 10% mar profit margin rate? Did you figure what?

So, I did not for this. Um, if if you don't mind, let me go on. Let me let me finish up and then we can talk about like potential differences like that. Okay. So, um I did want to calculate what the impact would be to EV owners that typically use um their cars here and I have not analyzed whether we have repeat users or anything like that. I have not gone into you know a lot of detail um in that sense but the average session as I said it's about it's a couple of hours is about 12 kilowatt hours and those cost increases they would range from 25 to $126 depending on the scenario and the time of use and so the typical um session is $2.7 and on a flat break even you know that would go up to 327 and on um you know flat 15% profit margin then you have you you're going up to you know almost $4. [snorts] But um I did want to point out that even with those higher fees EV charging at these stations remains at least 20% cheaper per mile than gas. And that is assuming the $3.13 a gallon which was the average for 2025 which as you know is going to be a lot higher um this year with the current um geopolitical international conditions. So um you know we're we're not ripping off even with the 15% profit margin during the day. People are still getting a better deal than if they had a fossil fuel vehicle charging at a gas station.

And we we still have a tariff that if they go more than an hour or half an hour, we do have a parking fee. Um um yes, a siding fee. Once charging is complete, you have one hour or a half an hour to Once charging is complete, you have a half hour to um take the vehicle. And if you do not, then um the parking fees start to apply. Dollar. A dollar an hour. Yes. And I'm not necessarily proposing a change in that right now, but if that's something that you would like to consider, we can do that, too.

I'm in favor of the flat break even. It's just simpler all around. But does the um idle fee apply also at night? Like let's say the char car stops stops charging at 2 am. Do the idle fees kick in? So I I do believe they do and I'm not 100% sure that you could change that in charge point that you could have different parking fees or idle fees by time of day. I don't think it's that customizable, but I can look into that. That's a good idea because if somebody wants to park there overnight and charge your car.

Yeah. I mean, I So, I mean, I have a number of comments, but just to follow on that thought, I mean, most places where I go where you charge overnight, do not have the idle fees kick in until 7 or 8 the next morning. Right. So, you're not getting up middle of the night, right? Because just that would be nice, right? Yeah. I can look into that. One more. I'll wait to hear to get to the end.

Okay, great. Um, so potential revenue to the city. If if the council did decide to go with a 15% profit margin scenario, that would generate about a,000 to $1,500 annually depending on whether we will see the same amount of use as we've seen so far or whether this would create um some uh some change in behavior, right? um the differential pricing in particular could shift the user behavior. Um but that would be a good thing in my book. So if we got if we generated less revenue because more people are charging at night, I think that is great. So just to put it out there, it's not that I'm expecting to get the 1500. Um and and I'd be disappointed if we didn't. And that so the 1500 the th00and to 1500 was by looking at a th00and as if it were used similar to um more similar to 2024 1500 more similar to um 2025. So if we keep with the 2025 to answer your question councelor Barrett 10% profit margin would be about 1,000. So you know you're you can look at it that way.

How much have we paid for maintenance so far like repairs? I mean, there's probably warranties on some of the equipment, but it probably expires and then if a if a charger candle breaks or the retractor cable breaks, do we have to pay for that?

So, we do not. We currently we what we contract with um Charge Point is our assure program which takes care of all maintenance, all warranty issues, everything is taken care of. Um and that is paid every five years. So, it is coming up for um renewal this year. Um, and the last thing, right, I think that, you know, this is personally I think that if the if or when the parking management plan is implemented, we might have to figure out whether people are saying, "No, we'll just park at the EV charging because that's cheaper than parking elsewhere." and whether we're okay with that or we're not okay with that, you know, we might want to have some sort of um revision at that point. So, I'm just pointing it out.

Plug in then what? Right. To um and I think that's that's about it. So, so really um what what I'm looking for today is just um to um get direction on what a preferred fee structure would be um and um so we can craft a resolution and move forward if you so desire. So I pay 21.5 cents during the day to charge and 16 cents in my garage. You pay that much. GMP is 21 and a half cents during the day. I'm paying 12.9 cents at night only.

No, no, it's you have some very special deal. The G&P different on my bill different rates.

12 12 21 and a half cents during the day, 16% 16 cents at night. If you have better rates, that's awesome. I'd love to understand how you do that. Um, and I would really like to um have the city be able to provide at least that 21 and a half cent or 22 cent the current rate to the residents here um for equity because they don't have the opportunity to get those um direct rates from GMP because we don't have charger infrastructure in those buildings because we didn't update our LDRs fast enough to do that. And um I think it would be a really good message for the city to send. I $1,100 is is a rounding area budget. It's just it's a trivial amount of money to incent people that we're going to provide you the rate that you would have if you were a homeowner. Come to the city, charge your EV, you get the same rate you get if you were a homeowner. And I think the cost to the city of doing that is pretty trivial and it's a great message. So my preference would be honestly to stick with the the current 22 cents.

I have a different take. That's why we're here. Oh, that's right. That's why we're here. Um, I uh I think that the rates that we're charging are significantly below what other commercial um charge stations are charging. Burlington. What's Burlington? 26. Okay, I'll leave that at Are you think of level three or level two chargers? You stop at other charging stations that aren't where I don't have the math. Okay. So, but I'll leave that let's leave that off the table. Okay.

Okay. I don't need to argue that one. Um, I think we should be at least break even personally and I would like to see it differential. I think because I would like to make charging for people that don't have charging available at home, accessible and at a reasonable rate. And most people that are coming here during the day do have charging at home. and if they choose to charge here instead of at home, paying a reasonable rate seems appropriate. Um, so I would go for a differential rate and I would hope maybe it would be 24 at night and 32 during the day or something like that. So there's we're we're if we're just at break even, there's a chance rates are going to go up and we're not going to revisit this for a while. So we're going to be below break even again. Um, and I would like to see us making a little bit on the on the money or on the charging that's happening during the day and a little less on the on the night time. So,

I agree with that. Um, I think that the what your data shows is that people are really, you know, they're coming to city hall for a couple hours, they're plugging their car in, they know they're going to be here, they charge it up a little bit. Um it seems to me that the people who are going to need the the lower rates are the people overnight. I mean you could even make the lower even the night rates even lower you know sort of try to balance it a little more so the day rates are a little higher and you know I mean I don't feel very strongly about it but um that's an option. I do think that most of the people who are charging now are charging when they're running errands coming to the library. Um yeah so anyway that's my thought. I don't think the differences are enough to make it to make it, you know, it's not worthwhile. So just I would say just keep it the same rate day and night. We don't get differential, right? And so I don't think we should pass on or create a differential. So I would say 10% instead of 15. We want to make a little bit. We don't we don't make a lot of money on it, but we want to make a little bit because we have our own expenses based upon this, right? So we're providing a service. It's a valuable service. The rates are fair. That's the that's the main thing is that it just has to be fair and not make a large profit off of it. So Burlington's at 27 26 27% all their all the beed charge points or at least 26 cents now in the garages or down at their their headquarters. So and and that's a I mean if you go to the other places like charge now EV related ones they're all more than that.

Yeah, they're all higher because they're they're looking to make little make more profit off of it. We're not looking to make I want to make one more pitch. We're not a profitm enterprise. We're here to promote a climate action plan. We have goals. We're here to promote equity. Um I don't I I it's actually it's it's troubling to me that we think we want to make a profit off this when our goal is to move people into EVs and 75% by 2030 and reduce carbon emissions from vehicles. I don't I don't know why we'd want to make a profit off that. It just it conflicts um with everything in our city plan.

I think one reason is that the the rates could go up and then we could end up in the in the red. No, no, let me finish. No, I I see what you're saying, but the that little our uh climate goals are also served by the I think profit margin is one way of phrasing it, but it's also that money would be plowed back into the purchase of the revolving I think it's later in the [laughter] presentation fund back into the the idea to create a small fund to increase the EV infrastructure because

you know and and this is one of the recommendations from the EV charging um infrastructure plan that we presented in February here um the city council meeting was that you know finding some way to start funding additional EV infrastructure because um I while I see the point that we do not want to make money um as a as a goal in itself, we do want to extend the infrastructure. So, right now we're serving a subset of the city by having these charging stations here. Ideally, we will be able to have some more charging stations elsewhere that would also be providing the service to more of our residents. And so, this is this that would be a step in the right direction. I mean, this that's the reason I'm proposing it. I'm not proposing it because there's some, you know, ulterior motive. I mean, we're all here. We know that all our residents do not want to spend more money on things. And so, if we're subsidizing EV users, that is also unfair. So from a equity perspective, I do believe that it is important to keep all our residents in mind and keep our current geographic limitations of EV charger access in mind and so this would be just a small step um to to help us move towards charging more distributed around the city.

A question is the differential billing does it involve any more difficulty in managing So, so it's not complicated if if we do that. Um, I think the differential charging would be really useful for people who have EVs and they don't have access to charging at home. This gives them a way to get vehicles and get into them and be able to charge them. And most people that are charging a day here, I haven't done a survey, but I will have a Good bet that most of them have charging at home.

So I think the differential billing makes a lot of sense. Well, maybe the way to purchase is to make the differential then more to even reduce the rates more at night to make it um have them be 22 cents at night and have them be 20 uh 30. It's about 30. It's about 30 or something like that. I I I did those calculations. I don't have the numbers right right here, but I did those and night has to start at 6:30 p.m. and end at 10:30 p.m. and there's no idle fees until like 8 in the morning. Yeah. If possible. Yeah. Let me write down. And we're going to need a motion on this.

Okay. and and and and ideally I know um I heard some discussion about well what when the rates go up and ideally um from the legal team they recommended that we do not come every year to update because of the rates and so if we can find a way to structure this that it is if it's break even it's break even or if it's you know a certain percentage it's a certain percentage above that but that we can write it in so that it then it can up be updated annually as necessary. I don't know if that's u possible, but I did have that comment.

I'd like the average percentage to be seven and a half, half of 15, and I'd like the the nighttime rate to be close to the 21, which means that the daytime rate is higher. 22 22, we're going to make them put this in a motion. You don't need to capture all the numbers. Can I ask you one one question? Did you did you quantify the the percentage of total charging that's done at night? Did I see that? It's about 30% 30% right now of folks charge at night right now. All right. I I'll try and make the motion. Make a motion. I move that the fees are updated such that on the whole the city earns a 10% profit margin.

Sure. um with um differential rates during the day and at night set such that the nighttime rate is about 22 cents an hour and the daytime rate is set to what it needs to be to earn the 10% margin. Second no dwelling fee at night until you decide 7 or 8 a.m. Second,

Patina, do we know if we can do the no dwelling at night? Um I am not totally sure. We might have to um basically get rid of it alto together which perhaps is not an issue. Perhaps when we have parking you could have a parking next to it. And you do parking too. So I'm not if possible. Yeah. If possible. If possible. Okay. So you got a motion. You got a second. Any discussion? There's a third. Do we get a fourth? All those in favor say I. I. It is unanimous. Thank you so much. I have just one more related thing that I want to talk about. Um the signs. Yes.

Um so we have signs there that say low emission vehicles only. There's about five or six of them. And um you often find parked in those spaces non EVs. Now that may be because maybe it's a hybrid. hard to tell. Maybe someone just has a vehicle that they think is gets really good gas mileage and so it's okay to park there. I don't I don't really know. But I think um at this point we should remove that ambiguity and limit those parking spaces to electric vehicles or plug-in hybrids only for future discussion. I'm not sure this is my within my responsibility to be honest, but I will bring that

throwing out there then. Yeah. Well, I mean it's um yeah, the signs have been off since we moved into this building. So, it was part of the design of this building. Um it would it's not it kind of falls without a home at this point, I would say. So, if the C I guess it would be helpful to us if the council wants to have that harsher language, please make a motion and direct us so we can buy more signs. So, I'm I'll move to change the signage to be electric vehicles or plug-in electric vehicers.

I would point out and as the not as the climate action manager but as a resident that it could feel I can't do that. Can't do that here. Public public. [laughter] All right, I'll send a public note. I I will I just You could do it as part of your job. I I would be concerned of sending a message of um elitism or something like that by, you know, the best spots being reserved for cars, which currently if you buy them used, you get a great deal. That's what I did. Um, but if you buy them new, there can still be a lot more.

I mean, it currently says low emission vehicles, which in my mind means kind of what we're saying, but it's just not maybe interpreted that way because there's all kinds of vehicles there. Compact cars. I don't really like the signs to be honest. [laughter] Okay, that's a different point. So, it is a different point. Different point. So, so I make the motion to change the signs. Maybe we signs are fine. Yeah, I would just leave them alone. Status quo. Let them park. I don't care. And I would point out that we've got charging stations. Let's revisit it here. Yeah. I I would point out that it's hard for us to have signs without enforcement. Yeah. Right. So

if it is about access to charging, there's the the ones right here are almost always empty. So it's more about access to prime parking spots than it is to the access to the charges. Yes. But it's incenting. It's I mean the idea of that sign whether you like it or not was to incent um the kind of vehicles we're talking about by giving them access to prime parking spots which is in and those incentives are in place in in many parking lots and then right in many places for that reason. Yeah. But the people that have these cars are typically in better shape. So they should park further away if they need [laughter] Okay.

I have probably talked more than I should. So I'm gonna turn it off before you close your computer. K. Okay. Oh, yes. Thank you. Stop sharing. I I'm not going to end the meeting. I've learned my lesson. All right. Thank you very much, Betina. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's broken. Going on to item number nine. receive an update from staff about city fraud prevention procedures given the recent attack at the Champlain Solid Waste District with Martha Machar finance director and Nick Jingro Jingro IT director is Nick on

I don't think Nick is here so Martha's gonna do this but I also do want to note that you um council requested this because of the recent CSWD um incident and Paul um is online who is your rep to CSWD if you want to hear from him as well. So, I'm going to move him over. I guess I guess I'd like to ask the question first. Is the CSWD confident that they know all the facts of the case or is I I I thought I read something where there was possible twist to the case. Hold on a sec because as he comes over, he might be not be able to hear your question. Okay. Paul, are you there? Paul,

you're muted. Oh, your camera's on. Okay. Sorry about that. Um, can you hear me now? Yeah, your your voice is a little bit Could you get closer to your microphone or do you have a headset? I'll try to speak up, too. Is Is that better? That's good. So, okay. My my question before we start is is the CSWD like totally confident they know exactly what happened now and that that it was totally external to the to the organization and there was no internal aspect of it.

Yes, I mean we do believe it was totally external. It was a case of um just a fraudster who sent very convincing emails uh with a link that looked exactly like the link we were expecting except it had like a hyphen in it and we talked to the staff member talked to the person that claimed to be the CFO of our construction company and it was again it was an honest mistake. Um there does not appear to be any you know other than that there doesn't appear to be any wrongdoing by by staff and now we are having you know uh of course the FBI is investigating uh it was also reported to the South Burlington police and I believe they were performing an investigation but at this point in time we have no um you know no indication that it was anything internal. We did perform a uh systems uh audit uh had our uh you know our uh IP provider IT provider uh do that and uh that was all clear. There were no viruses or anything like that. So um yeah we we do not believe uh that uh uh it was anything internal. Uh we have taken the staff has taken um some steps for instance they're not doing any transfer fund transfers to digitally unless they're for uh you know unless they're for things that are well established. For instance, our payroll and benefits are are made you know are funded via those and and those have been long established. So we we know that. But for the construction, we're doing pretty much paper checks at this point. Um, so uh yeah, but any and I just want to say I commend you for looking into

this. I think it's very important. I know I have taken uh this personally and also just done a a checkup of my own personal security uh online security to make sure I'm uh safe. So anyway, thank you.

Thank you, Paul. Machar uh I just have to say so just presenting this but this was uh put together with the IT and uh the deputy finance director. So this is just an highlight of our current processes and like Paul says there are no system that are handed approved. Uh things do happen. Uh but right now we do believe that our current processes including the policies that we follow, how we uh approve the vendors that we pay and the purchase orders that we create and how we actually pay bills, the approval process that we go through depending on the amount uh department heads can approve up to well they approve all invoices approved all they and when there are new vendors then they reach out to finance let us know what the vendors are. We do require uh W 9 and also if the vendors still at the point of creating a PO uh we do required contract uh and contracts that have been vetted. Most of the contracts do come before you before the council uh to be awarded. But there are also some contracts that uh based on the amount that the city manager can authorize via soul source. And with those as well uh we do also uh required the department heads to go out and uh solicit uh some uh quotes before those are approved and then contract sign and then when a PO is created uh departments approve after 10. If they are above 10 then those are also uh require a second approval uh by the finance director and anything else that's above 25 also require a city

manager approval and that is before it is uh included in the warrant that you then authorize to be paid. So there's a lot of approval and review processes that go into an invoice and also PRO before an invoice is even generated to be processed and bring to you uh to be processed. Our IT department as well has some securities in place uh based on uh emails that they allows to come through. But yes, things do happen. Could there be something that happened where an email look legit and then it just come through? Yes, there is step where we are able to catch those. Yes. Can we not catch those? Yes. But we do believe that with our current processes that we have, knock on the wood. Nothing bad has happened so far and we are hoping that nothing bad will happen. And yes, is there a room for always a sale for do we say this is 100 proof? No. But we are we do pay attention. We are well vigilant about all these fishing scams happening, invoices coming through, other invoices coming through. Are we cussing those right now? Yes. So we are doing the best that we can based on the policies that we have and policies that we continue to update our p purchasing policy uh will be updated because of the uh net suite our new finance system that uh we just launched that will also lead to an update of the purchase purchasing policy that will be coming before you for review and approve but we are doing the best that we can to avoid what happened uh with this year's beauty. So Martha, are you familiar with what happened exactly at at CSWD? Like somebody got an email with an invoice and did somebody click a button in that email to initiate the payment of that invoice? Is that

what happened? Or did they take something out of that email and place it paste it somewhere else to initiate the payment? I'm not 100% sure, but I think Paul can answer that.

Paul, do you do you know the answer to that? Well, uh, from what I can gather, um, it it was emails, um, that again looked very much like what we had gotten from, uh, our construction company. Um, but it had a link to an account number, a link to an account number that again looked a lot like what we expected, but it was a different account. And by the time it was detected that we had transferred to that different account, the money had been moved out of that. So we were unable to claw it back.

So does that mean that somebody clicked in that email an address or whatever to to initiate the the sending of money to to a fake place right where the criminals received it? Yeah. It went to this to the uh to a the same bank that we were expecting, but the account number was different. Okay. Okay. And and at least that's my understanding. I I'll be honest with you. Um you know, I think when Sarah presents the budget to you in in May, uh it's probably she'd be able to give you a better, more accurate description, but that at a high level, that's my understanding. it was a different

I would want the mechanism broadcast to every municipality in Vermont that this is how this thing happened and how it what it looked like and and how to prepare for it. But I read your report and it seemed to indicate that when we initiate payments, we do it through our own, you know, system that goes to the bank that then, you know, uses a wellestablished payment route that's not initiated by what's in an email. Is that a true statement? Yeah, that that's correct. So, we do have uh pay or bills through a third party that is through a bank financial institution TD bank and it's pay X. So once the warrant is approved by the council we process payment send a payment file uh to this uh payment processor who would then dispose payment. And there are vendors who have signed up to receive payment via AC or virtual card payment. And there are vendors that have not signed up for any of those and those who receive checks as well. And once they do that, a payment file is also sent to the TD bank. That one goes to the financial processor. But there's a second file that goes to TD Bank. And when checks are brought to the the bank for deposit, uh TD Bank process those against the file that was sent to them to verify to be sure that that's an authorized uh check by the city to be cashed. And even a little alteration that looks different from the check, then we get a notifications to go in and view that check to make sure that it is a check that we authorize to be paid and make a decision to pay it. So, if if we have a contract with a new company, company company uh like ABC Construction, right? Is there something that you set up with our our pay system to initiate and get the the accounts lined up for I don't know whether you

cut paper checks or you red you do a or whatever it's called. I mean, you know, you know what I'm trying to say is that you know, instead of just clicking an email to go pay somebody, right, somehow you actually go to the bank. No, no, I know, but but there's an estab there's a procedure for for establishing a payment route for a new contract or a new vendor, right?

There is. So, we do not uh create those accounts. We would direct uh the vendor to pay X. They were reached out to pay mode X create account themsel account that we do not even have access to. They will put in their bank information themselves. We do not see banking information for the for the vendors. Those are maintained by the vendors. If there are changes, they go in make their changes. They maintain that information. We process payment here through the war and send that information to pay mode X and pay mode ised based on the selected payment most method that the vendor has selected.

It's very and isn't it true that pay mode X then owns the liability if that information is not correct from the vendor? That's correct. It's basically an insurance system. Sometimes a phone call between two parties fix can can you know discover this fraud immediately like did you just send me an invoice?

No, we haven't done that. And then you go, oh well. And you know, so this at least where I work, sometimes if you receive something and and it's questionable and they're asking you to do something, they urge you to just to call the person, you know, person and find out if they sent it to you. And I'm just curious if that's in anybody's, you know, procedures at all. If if in doubt, give a call and find out whether the thing is real. I mean, but it sounds like you have a pretty good protection.

Yes, that that's that's really a step, too. Like if we have an established vendor in the system and we want uh to change their information in the system, the address where the checks go to, then we verify that with that vendor to be like, okay,

and we also verify it with what is on their bill. And right now with our new finance system, so all the invoices come through uh the finance, we look at those. If they have a PO number on them, then those are sent back to the department to approve. We just don't process them without going to the department or the project manager to review those and make sure that we are actually paying for the services that we received before the check or before that invoice is processed and brought to you for approval.

It sounds like the payment system that CSWD had, they got an email that basically changed the payment channel. And the way Martha is set up, an email is not going to change a payment channel. So, yeah, it sounds like we're pretty well protected from the unfortunate situation that that Paul, you guys found yourself in. Wow. These are the things that and a lot of ours came with the implementation of this new finance software where now, you know, a purchase order has to be created and approved for every distribution. And again, if it's over 25,000,

three other people are seeing that before the purchase orders ever even allowed to be created. No system is perfect, but presumably there was a purchase order here to C CWSD, but the final step, the payment of that purchase order just went. That that's right. That's what it sounds like. Thank you, Martha. All right. Any questions for Martha? besides comments we have. Okay, great. Thank you. So, that was item nine. We'll go to item 10, which is received the FY26 quarter 2 plus through February 17th financials. Again, Martha Machar, welcome again.

Hi, Martha Ma talking to you about the finance credit 2 plus financials. At this point, we are already in Q4. So, it's just like okay, we are going to be talking about the past. Uh so quite a few at that point those were late because we were in the process of just coming live with our new finance software and uh working through that system and being able to generate reports. we were not able to generate those report for you on time and that's why this came to you late uh on your agenda uh for the last council meeting uh March 16 uh but due to what happened uh pushed right now and so at that point I would say both revenues and expenses were uh as expected previous uh compared to uh previous year revenues at that point uh might seem a little lower. Some of the revenues are received in the third and the fourth quarter because of the weather and some of the revenues are well also lot of revenues line that you might see in there showing zero receipts year to date. Some of those are inter transfers that we do uh in quarter three and quarter 4. So you would start seeing those when we bring quarter 3 to you to uh to look at uh some of those internal transfer between funds would happen. But some of them as well we do wait until maybe Q4 to do those because those are also project dependent to be sure that if a project is completed then we do the transfer if a project is not completed then we don't do the transfer. So you would be seeing those were in Q three and as well in Q4. But uh there were no big uh red flags for per say or maybe big uh rate to be like okay we are going to be a lot uh over by this amount or we

are going to be receiving a lot more than uh we budgeted. I think things fall within uh what we have seen in previous years with Q2 but Q3 will be coming to you uh in a few weeks as well. So the last local sales option tax that we got from the state was the first one where we were getting 75% instead of 70%. Is that true? That's correct. And you had a question about that, right? Which was and so but that revenue was even though it was 5% it was 75% it still was down from projections from from what was expected.

So overall uh the revenue projection uh for local option tax are lower but for the quarter compared to last uh the same period last year those were higher. Oh okay. So I mean what's what's like this is an amazing amount of work but like for me the the key sentence in here is the one that says based upon current based on current spending and revenue receipts is projected the city will end the year in black but also not expected to realize the level of surplus experienced in recent years which is I think by design

right I mean we we we we intentionally right um tightened our belts a bit so that we wouldn't have that surplus if we hit that target, um I would say this is a success. So I think that is very true. That's my interpretation as well. And let's just remember that we tightened our belts in FY26 and we did that more aggressively in FY27. So, we are pleased that we are where we are right now in FY26, but are also using that as a bit of a caution that going into FY27, we're going to need to be even more um uh strict with our oversight of each of those lines.

We probably won't have a $2.5 million surplus. Again, intentionally, yeah, you know, just Any other questions for Martha on this? No. Good report. Thank you. Thank you, Martha. Thank you, Martha.

Okay. Uh item number 11, which is discuss the FY26 social service funding plan and provide direction to staff. Jesse Baker. So, um our our recommendation is, as you know, you have $28,000 in the FY26 budget um to fund social service um uh awards. You zero that out in the FY27 budget. So, as we go forward, this um expectation from the community will shift. So, our and it's been a very um complicated process in the last couple of years to award very small money to a very um to uh nonprofits. So our recommendation is as the chief is putting together his set of recommendations to use the o opioid settlement dollars, we hold on this allocation and consider these dollars in addition to those opioid fund allocations. So, we're really targeting um the taxpayer dollars to interventions that are going to are going to directly assist um our neighbors most in need as opposed to just um small amounts kind of spattered through the community. So, that is our recommendation. And if you would like to proceed another way, please provide us direction.

I have a question. Yes, sir.

Um what you're saying makes sense to me. I um am thinking about uh Travia Child and Trinity in particular who experienced a uncomfortable u decrease in their funding last year based on the way we move forward and um I don't I I don't know all the people that we're giving the money to and how much they rely on what we've been doing. But I always want to make sure that we're not in the process of waiting creating financial harm harm or hardship for some of the people that are doing good work. So I don't know how to how to address that.

If you go back a number of years, the the list of the recipients was uh well in 2016 it was large and we cut it down and it we it kind of remained constant for several years, right? Then last year it went and it got really big. So those that that got money last year, I mean they didn't weren't getting it before most of them. So I mean it's the one time thing. So they hadn't grown used to receiving those contributions. So I I wouldn't worry about that. But it would be some of them some of them clearly

if I could answer that that's correct but with a little more his history. Um so his and I don't you know back to 2016 I only know back to 2021. Um so when I started there was $15,000 allocated for social service funding and that was still averaging between say $500 and $1,500 per organization a year. So very small awards. And then um in in one of those early years, the council decided to fund the Trinity Education Center with one-time money, not social service allocation money, as a fund balance request from a specific nonprofit.

Okay. And then as the the next year came, instead of using one-time money for that, they rolled that 13,000 into the 28,000 to look across the board more equitably about all of our service providers and how we were going to fund them. So, I believe, and Martha, correct me if my memory here is wrong, I believe that last year's awards, there were more awards because we went from 15,000 to 28,000, but they still range from about $800 to maybe tapped out around 2500. So, still no one organization was giving it getting anything that was going to ensure them operational security. Right. Okay.

Thank you. Good summarization. So, are we comfortable with this new approach? I heard a yes. I have a question about it. So, I again I'm very new here. So, so there's um there's money from an from the opioid settlement. Yes. And this is this is basically money that we haven't used out of the 202 or the FY26 budget. So that's basically going to be going to be elomerated to the whatever pot of money there is for the opioid from the opioid settlement and then we're going to hear from our police chief on how he thinks that we should allocate that larger

amount of money. Is that correct?

Very very close to correct slightly differently. And again Martha correct me here. So we because we are part of the national opioid settlements, we get um residuals from that regularly. So over the last couple of years, we have we have about $300,000 sitting in that fund of funds we've collected and we will continue to receive funds into the 2030s. Um, so as and we have intentionally held that to be strategic about how we are activating those funds because we can't we can't just use them to pay a cop salary. We have to use them for service to our neighbors. So as we think about the kind of the strategic plan of how we're going to use those revenues over time, this $28,000 you would still have to vote. We're not asking you to vote on this tonight. you would still have to vote to allocate those this $28,000 to the items outlined in those plan in that plan if you approve the plan.

And when will that be happening? Well, uh so we are we are hoping to bring you a um proposal of that plan in late May. Um given other things going on, I'm hoping that we stay to that schedule. Um, but we're also trying to match. So, what the what the chief and the attorneys are doing is looking at our ordinances and what ordinance changes we need to make to um to incentivize um uptake of services and then working with our service partners to say would you be willing to partner with us in this way so when we bring you the plan we know that there's some likelihood of its success. Okay.

Um and so we are we've met with service providers. We've are um in the we've done the review of the ordinances and we're putting those pieces together. And will organizations like Trinity be incorporated into this new proposal or are they going to be outside of it? Um, speaking specifically about Trinity, I do not, they have not been a partner we've talked to yet because we're very targeted at the mental health service provision and the substance treatment service provision. Okay?

And often we don't see children having the same needs as our older as our adult population.

I I understand that. And I also recognize that that our children's experience has a lot to do with what happens to them if they get to be adults. Um and and their risk exposure. Um so I would I would hope that somehow they get not just dropped off the table. Um because because early ood intervention and and prevention is is critically important for Yeah. And I So I guess I don't want to sorry

um I don't want to suggest that the chief and I have any interest in dropping the children off the table. No, I understand.

I think the the challenge for us is um and one of one of the things we talked with our mental health service provider about they are also in our schools. So they are their colleagues are doing the same work with our our students already. And what we're really what the proposal we're bringing to you is around these quality of life crimes to say we know we know that um I wish the chief is still here. He can explain this better than I. We know that our population negatively impacting the perception of safety in our community is very small. And it's and it's not random. It's because many of our neighbors are struggling with real in real crisis. So, how do we take these dollars we have available and try to incentivize those folks becoming productive members of our community so that they are more productive and contributing to our community and so the perception of safety increases in our community. Um, we think that that how children show up in that equation is is often through school and often through how they're interacting with other positive adults in their lives. And those programs are offered by the same treatment provider, but paid for and supported through the school district, not through us.

Okay, that's sort of sort of clear. Sort of clear. It's it's still a question for me about about that piece and and I think just in general about some of the some of the organizations who can really benefit from some some of that support that we've given in the past. So when do you think the chief will have proposal? We are aiming for the second meeting in May. Second. Okay.

Any other questions on this? Okay. Thank you. We'll move on to uh item number 12, which is discuss and possibly approve the 2026 policy and statutory committee recruitment process. Oh, this is me again, huh? Yeah,

I really planned this wrong, Steve. Uh, okay. So, you have So, this is about appointing members to committees for um in June of 2026. per your policy you do those appointments in um June. Um so uh as we did last year we are proposing a structure that um outlines an application period that results in a series of special meetings uh for you to interview candidates and then um appoint them at your last meeting in in June. And so we're getting to that time where we need to start advertising. Um, by our calculation of terms being up, we will have about 10 hours of interviews to conduct or the council will have about 10 hours of interviews to conduct. Um, so our recommendation is that you approve this recommended process tonight. We'll advertise on April 15th. Um, have applications due on May 20th. um schedule some special meetings at the end of May or beginning of June to hold those interviews with a goal of appointing um on at your second meeting in June on June 15th. Andrew reminded me that last year we um you had a conversation um at an initial council meeting where you tal you decided who you were going to interview. And so for positions where we had the number of people per the number of vacancies, you opted not to interview folks. So we that is not reflected in this memo, but you could do that as well. So the question really for you all tonight is um ideally um is this process okay? when do you want to have those special meetings at the end of May or beginning of June, which is useful to know in advance so we can um do all of the there's a lot of logistics that goes into scheduling all of those. Um and then uh is there anything else you want

to change about the process, the application form? Um sometimes councils have asked for attendance records as part of that um review. Do you want to do that again or are there any other improvements you would like to see in the process? Yeah, we just need to like have an executive session sometime before we schedule the interviews or ability to so we can modify them timely. Yeah. Because the I think last year we wound up cutting out like half. Yep.

So, um in terms of the script, I would I wouldn't mind adding one more question. something like um you know in terms of the committee that your chief has been serving on what do you see the city doing well and what are the city doing not so well it's a question I always ask and so if we could just put it on the form be helpful do you mean on the application form well you say here in fairness I recommend following the script oh okay do we find in general that it's hard to fill these committees because I think there was some wasn't there a suggestion that that some of the committees be combined or you know sort of streamline some of the committees and and I I don't know when that would happen. I guess that would happen during the policy priority meeting.

Well, we've had a lot of interest in the committees, but but but I agree it would be a good idea to talk about I mean we've we've had lots of conversations about changes to the committees including combination or refocus, you know, re re thinking about the charter. From my perspective, it's it's not so much that there hasn't been enough interest, but it's really to make sure we're highest and best use of staff of our volunteer time, you know, are are we orienting things the right way? You know, th those kind of questions that are that we need to talk about and I don't know if we do that before we do the committee. We've already made changes last year, right? We have a housing committee now, right? Yeah. Yeah. When did we do that?

That was a year and a half ago. No, no. I'm saying do we do that like now before? You you want to think about doing it again like doing some more condensation or Well, maybe I mean I mean there are other there are other things. I mean like for instance I mean I've said a number of times I think we should um broaden the energy committee's mandate to to what they're in fact doing which is climate and energy. I think that's kind of a no-brainer just to put that in their charter and broaden that because that is what they do. Energy is a little narrow. We've also talked maybe about combining some committees which makes sense to me to talk about

agree with structure of the NRCC and the wreck and parks division and or committee and how how there could be if not co-joined more cross-pollination between those two because I think that could really help resolve some of the creative tension between the two for lack of a better there. Now you're you're conducting scope creep on this agenda. I just I know. So, I'm I'm not saying we do I'm not talking about doing this now. I'm saying this is something I think we need to to address at some point. The only question I have about I think the process is fine.

Is there a reason this all happens at once as opposed to being split up and having appointments in the fall and appointments in the spring? Just logistically having 36 seats to do all at once is a big piece. We just got to get it out of the way and do it and just crank as opposed to doing 16 ones and 16. Just do it all at once. Remember last year it went pretty quick. We cut it down in half. Yeah. You know, so I'm good to go.

Coming coming back to the question, I know we can't have that discussion now, but it's a process question. Should we have the discussion before we interview for committees? If we decide to realign and advertise, shouldn't we have discussion about what the committee what the committee structure we'd like to have is before we do that. That definitely makes sense. So then I'm suggesting we put on one of our agenda items for the next, you know, next session or one after that a discussion of this. That makes sense. Well, the 15th is the the date for announcing. Yeah, we don't we don't have much time at this point. Yeah. Well, maybe we just don't have time this year. So maybe we maybe we put it on an agenda for after we do this

for preparation for next year that given the schedule it seems maybe like that's what we need to do. Well, we we we can have the discussion anytime. No, but then there's no I mean I'm just saying there's no urgency to if it's not going to fit. I think we're pretty good right now, but you're right. There could be some small if you're just talking about changing it, you know, the charter for a particular committee. That's something that could doesn't have to be done beforehand. No, that doesn't. But if you're talking about combining, right? Combining. Yeah, that's much that's more structural. So, is this uh is this schedule? It's Yes. Okay. You need a motion?

Um do I need a motion? Um I don't think I necessarily need a motion. What I I um Sorry, I'm going to backtrack a little and do something. I know you guys don't necessarily like what I do. I think if you if you two mentioned two very specific changes to um committees, you know, I think if you want to talk about changing the charge of the energy committee, I don't think that that changes anything about how we would necessarily advertise for right. Um, so I think you could make some smaller changes around the edges like we did for housing committee next year last year at your April 20th meet or April 20th meeting or April 5th meeting, Mark May 5th meeting if you wanted to. So I

I don't want to say we have to have a much bigger conversation about that if you don't want to. Um, I don't think I need a motion, but what I will do is send out some trusty doodle polls to try and find some meeting times for interviews. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Make sure the doodle pull is actually from Jesse not from Jesse. Can we then have maybe um a meeting to talk about the committees which won't rise to the level of combining which then change the interview process but which talked about other things that we should maybe think about in June or something or or early whenever whenever fits when whenever it fits. I'm sorry, Andrew. What What is

Well, for instance, the energy committee or you know, there other changes like that that we want to make. Okay. So, no motion. We'll speed him ahead.

We're good. Okay. Item 13, convene as control commission to consider the following applications for approval. Old Post, Cotto, Jam, Weird Window, Homewood Suites, Healthy Living, Green Mountain Suites, Bueno, Burlington, 802 Cocktails, AM, Burlington Service, Maple Fields, Olive Garden, and Them Apples. Can I have a motion to enter liquor control? Second. Move to convene. Second. We have a motion second. All those in favor say I. I. I. We are now convened as liquor control. Can I have a motion to approve all of these license applications? Move to approve. Second. Have a motion. Second. All those in favor say I. I. Again, it's unanimous. Have a motion to come out of liquor commission. Move to come out. Second. A motion and second. All those in favor say I. I.

All right. Sorry that took so long.

I remember a couple years ago we had to have a special emergency daytime meeting to approve a liquor control. Does that was remote. Do you remember you remember that? Okay. Yeah. So nobody everybody got their their applications in on time. We hope. Okay. That's good because I know it hurts if you can't sell, you know, alcohol and this. All right. Item 14. Review the significant agenda topics below for the council's April 20th meeting. So, um, on your agenda is the discussion of, um, the Chenning County Public Safety Authority status, the climate action plan, government operations implementation plan update, um, and discussing the charter committee's role in the FY27 policies and strategies conversation if you want to bring them in.

What's that last one about? This was uh, came up at your last meeting. Elizabeth was noting that the charter committee wasn't listed in the ones that are presenting to you in May and that's because they're not necessarily a policy advising to you other than when you charge them to do something and do we want to do you want to consider charging them to do something or have an have an intentional conversation about that. Um, so she wanted to have that conversation and somebody else said, "Okay." And we put it on. And I heard her her request was that some of these committees are coming forward with things they want to bring to council to consider. And she was saying she wanted thought it might be appropriate for the charter committee to be able to do the same thing.

Is that how it works? I thought the charter committee um is set up to implement what we ask it. Is it a two-way street? Is that how Well, we've made all our committees. No, no. The charter committee is a very special committee. Okay. Historically, the charter committee has only um done the work you have asked them to do. I interpreted Elizabeth's request saying, do you want to have a convers a conversation about their about thinking about them in our FY27 planning? And if so, do you want to ask the charter committee to provide some ideas to you on that? I have no need.

Well, so so this is part of this process, right? Like this came up in other business at a last meeting. She brought it up. I don't remember who said yes to it, but I feel like somebody second person said yes to it at the time. So, I'm putting it on the agenda. Remember that? Okay. I can give me a minute. I'll go back and find it. It was an I don't [laughter] scapegoat if any's out there. I'm not making it was the person that's not here anymore. I mean, if we haven't charge them, I'm not sure what. Yeah. Anyways, [clears throat] I did it right. Could not be on the agenda. There you go.

You t as chair, why don't you talk to your co-conselor about that? See whether you want me to direct me to put it on or not. Um, I would say take it off. I agree. You don't want to talk to Elizabeth about it first. Talk to Elizabeth about it first. Okay, I'll talk to Elizabeth first. Yeah, she's not here. So that's true. Okay, that's a good idea. It's a courtesy at least. Yeah,

there's also a bunch of things that have come up that since we published this agenda they just want to put on your radar screen. So another thing um another item will be uh per our agreement with SP3C the council has a rep on the SP3C board um that was an is no longer an I neglected to put it on when you were doing the um appointments before so you need to decide that um hopefully awarding the bridge contract that will be a thing um the afteraction report and the FY27 policies and strategies process so the bridge It'll be on the 20th. So, are you here or not? No, I'm not here. Okay, you're not here. So, it's two weeks plus. So, two weeks plus. Yeah,

we come back on the 20th. I would also like to put on the agenda um discussion of the traffic in Samansky. We'll pick honestly for me it's it's really the Andrews Avenue the traffic. I think there's we could talk about it more broadly. Significantly more than that. Okay. Traffic is noise. Yeah, there's a lot of it. I guess the question is, do we want to have Adam like talk to us about the facility and what other dials we can turn? The last time we dialed one hour on the uh closing time, right? Yeah. And also

yeah I mean but honestly I mean what we could do is have um somebody refresh the data that was presented to us which was actually how often it's used from the data showed that well and it's aren't even up yet. Yeah, I know. And I I know. So, we have to wait for that data and um data around the decimal readings, right? Um which is all So, you just want a review of what he had before? Again, I I to me um the the issue that I think is most prominent given the data we saw is the is the traffic on Andrews Avenue. So, I you can refresh the data. I think it's data. I mean, I think it's traffic. I think the parking is a big piece.

Yeah. Um um enforcement of ours is a big piece. Um we've had a request from a cohort of our community to have a conversation about this before. I haven't seen a petition. I haven't seen a petition. Have you seen a petition yet? Well, do we have to uh do we have to see a petition to to make told there's a petition, right? But we we've had a number of people come to us several times and they're all concerned and they've said right, you know, they they've been hammering away the same issue, right? And we we did tweak one thing two years ago, I think, right?

But I mean, a petition needs to be submitted formally to council for us to to accept it and say, "Yeah, here's two hundred people that said that, you know, they agreed and they're all residents." I we haven't seen that yet. Right. So, what's the what's the right number of people to to incent us to or or, you know, convince us to to take some sort of action to try and mitigate the problem. I mean, we heard we heard five. Let me finish. Can I finish? Can I? So, we heard we need to say we agree that we want to have an agenda item on a future meeting about this.

Yeah, I think we I think we should have this on the agenda and I I don't know if this is the appropriate time, but I you know, I've heard from a number of people in the community about this and you know, they spoke very passionately. I'm sure you all have heard from them. Um, and uh, I don't know if if I can, you know, I' I'd like to make a motion that we at least hear them before the nets go up because that's something that they've asked for. You know, can we can we delay putting up the nets until we've had that conversation? Do we know when the nets are supposed to go up? I I don't know specifically, but I imagine it will be before your next meeting. So if you want I think

I'm making a motion to yeah I'm making a motion to delay the installation of the nets until we've heard from that community and if 15 15 20 people show up and they come with a petition with 100 names on it then you know we have information. So I motion can we do that? I mean it's it's a this is an operational change. This is really in the weeds change. you don't direct policy on any other recreation programs, but this will be hugely unpopular in the community on the pickle ball side of things. Yeah. So, I would feel more comfortable is if the if the four of you want to direct us not to do that, I would feel more comfortable with a motion. It's not

it's not a liability. It's not money. It's not it's political cover for us to not do the thing we've done. I would do a second to the motion. So, to postpone putting up the nets until after we have an agenda item meeting. Yes. Precisely. Yeah. So I I I would not support that. Why not? It's okay.

Um we spent a lot of time um looking at this issue with data decel readings actual time the people there. We had tre number we had a lot of people from the community on both sides of this question. and for us to act now um because we had you know several people come to us to make a motion without revisiting all that data and hearing from people again and making a change like this I think is really snap judgment and I I'm I I really think it could be a huge mistake. I think this I think this city may be facing a lawsuit. Let me and let me finish please.

Please please there are a lot of people that are concerned about this and have been concerned for a long time and we have made some changes and those changes have not satisfied the concerns of a large number of people. We may not have seen the petition, but I know that the petition is there and I know it has a lot of signatures and um to delay for a brief period of time so that this can be given due consideration I think is appropriate.

I agree with that. given the given the the four-year nature of this issue and and the way those courts were were established in that the whole way that whole process was established to begin with. So,

and we're also looking at an issue that's, you know, it's a it's a conflict between what a lot of residents are saying is public safety issue and a and a mental health problem, you know, related to the noise. Mental health problems related to the noise. And not not to disparrage or downplay, but it's a recreational activity. So, I think that we can we can probably agree that a public safety a potential public safety issue um should get a little bit more, you know, uh uh maybe not respect, but we should we should give some consideration to the fact that we're talking about the difference between uh recreation and public health, public safety. So, that's that's my feeling on it. I I agree with Lori. delaying is delaying saying we're never putting the nets up is a vastly different um proposition from saying we're just going to delay the installation of the nets for another three or four weeks. Yeah. I mean, I think we should hear from these these folks and you know, give them another shot at uh you know, explaining their concerns. That's that's my feeling.

Or or have a serious conversation about temporary speed bumps or limiting parking or resident parking only or enforcement of hours and having those things in place before the nets go up so that we have actually addressed some of these issues. If the nets go up and we haven't addressed the issues, then we're trying to backtrack instead of taking care. Look, can we just review I mean We we I I agree that we need to um look again about parking speeding, but we did look at it and we had information from Chief Burke at the time that satisfied everyone that

No, I don't think I mean we didn't do anything. I wasn't satisfied with that. The information that he provided was that there was there was no speeding. They did put up a radar. I know that. So, you know, um, and I'm not saying we shouldn't look it again. And I I am in favor of I mean, and I was at the time of speed humps, speed bumps. I think that makes a lot of sense. And there was discussion. I'm not sure why it didn't happen. And and other mitigating things, but I think to um change the expectations of the community without doing that homework again and revisiting is a mistake.

I don't think we're changing the expectations. I think we're just giving a giving a pause so that we can do that. We're at least putting an agenda. We're putting an item on an agenda on a future meeting to give them a chance to talk again, right? And so we can discuss because we're actually have a discussion now. Can we vote on the motion that was just put forward? Um I mean, oh, you've got a motion and you've got a second. So um is there any discussion? All those in favor say I. I. Those opposed. So the motion doesn't pass.

Okay. Um, but I I want to have the agenda item. I do want to have the discussion and we will find out what things we can change if we need to change something. All right. Do do you just for agenda clarity are you asking for that on your next meeting or on is it is it chalk or I won't be here for the next and it was it's the act after action and it is pretty full. It's pretty full. Okay. May six. Um, is there any other business? Item 15. Oh, sorry. May fourth.

Yeah. The one other question I have is um the meeting that we have scheduled for the round table upstairs on the third floor um inviting migrant justice and um indivisible Part of me questions whether it'd be inappropriate not to have the chief there. Would it be inappropriate to not have to not have the chief? I I think the chief should be there. Oh. Oh. Would it be appropriate to have the chief?

Yes. To be part of I was asking it as a negative, but to if we're having this conversation, the the law enforcement perspective, does it need to be at the table? May I propose that we get through the after action conversation? Absolutely. Thank you. Absolutely. Any other business? Motion to adjurnn. Motion to adjurnn. Second. All in favor say I. I. 9.