Planning and Zoning Meeting - Regular Meeting

Franklin County after

I don't know that's going to change from I do think we should four hours time there's a reasonable time and place restriction the constitution allows us to close out of a reasonable

think about Oh yeah.

Oh, really? Yeah, driving that far to the right is not fun. It's 7:00.

You ready? Robert Laura, are you ready? Good evening. Welcome to the March 18th, 2026 Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. At this time, I would request that everyone please turn off or mute all cell phones and other electronic devices. Also, at this time, I would invite each of you to stand with me for the pledge of allegiance.

I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Applications for our temporary fireworks stands heard during tonight's meeting will be voted on by the planning and zoning commission. The vote on these temporary firework stands will be final. Only a recommendation for denial would be heard by the county council at their April 13th, 2026 meeting. Applications for conditional use permit request and resoning requests will be heard during tonight's meeting and the commission will vote on these applications and make a recommendation to the county council. The applications will be scheduled to be introduced before the county council at the Monday, April 13, 2026 county council meeting. Public comment for conditional use permit request will be taken during tonight's meeting and at the county council meeting on Monday, April 13, 2026. Public comment on conditional use permit applications will not will not be taken at any meeting of the county council held thereafter. Applications for preliminary plat during tonight's meeting will be voted on by the planning and zoning commission during the meeting. The vote on preliminary plat is final. Only a recommendation for denial of a preliminary plat would be heard before the county council at their April 13, 2026 meeting. The following documents are introduced as a matter of record for this evening's planning uh public hearing and regular meeting of the planning and zoning commission. Those documents are the unified development ordinance of St. Charles County, including zoning maps. Page two, the year 2030 master plan for St.

Charles County, which includes the year 2030 future land use plan map and the rules of order and procedure for the planning and zoning commission as adopted by resolution 21-01. I see that we have a quorum as a motion to open the meeting. So moved. Is there a second? Second. Motion been made and seconded to open the meeting. All in favor sign I. I.

Okay, we're in business. Uh before we get into the fireworks stands uh applications. I'll give you a little brief rundown as how we conduct this meeting. Uh I will read the application into the record. Uh we will ask the staff uh for their report and recommendation. Uh members of the commission may or may not have questions for the staff. Then we'll ask the applicant to come forward and present their application, answer any questions that uh the commissioners may have regarding the application. And then I will open the public hearing uh regarding the application. Uh if you're going to speak, uh over somewhere on the corner there's a little white cards. Uh if you're going to speak, please fill that out uh so that Miss Hayes ensures we get your name correct uh in our in our minutes. Uh if you do speak, I have to uh swear you in. Uh so you swear or affirm that you be telling the truth uh in the public public hearing. Uh with our rules of procedure, uh you'll have uh 3 minutes to speak uh for or against the application. Uh once someone we've heard two, three, four people talk about the same thing repetitively. Uh we've taken our notes. Uh and so we ask someone if you're going to speak to speak to something different. Okay. Uh just in the interest of everyone's time, uh once we have clo closed the public hearing, we'll ask the applicant to come back uh answer any questions that arose as part of the public hearing. Uh and then uh the commission will consider the application and we will vote. Uh that's uh how we generally run this meeting. Uh the start of the meeting is uh going to be a little different. uh July 4th will be here before you know it, but here in March, we're approving uh uh

applications for uh fireworks uh uh stands. Uh the first thing on our agenda is the approval of the 2026 fireworks stand regulations. Uh staff, the fireworks stand regulations proposed for 2026 have been adjusted from the 2025 regulations. The section special conditions for approval required the CUP owner or operator to ensure staff and customers followed the county and state public health orders. This add was added to prevent the spread of COVID at the time. This condition no longer applies. The rest of the fireworks stand regulations remains the same.

Any questions for staff regarding the firework regulations? Hearing none, uh we'll now open the public comment portion for the uh firework stand regulations. This is a little different than our public hearing. Anybody wishing to speak regarding the firework uh stand regulations?

You don't. This is public comment. Go ahead, Mr. Denov.

There you go. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Arie C. AC Dino, County Public Advocate. Couple issues I want to go over um are the state Senate bill that was passed in last year's legislative session by both the Missouri House of Representatives and the Missouri Senate. That was Senate Bill 81 and it was signed into law by Governor Kho. Went into effect on August 28th of last year. The fireworks reg state regulations through the state fire marshall's office govern sections 90 or 49.266 253 320 320 and 568 of the revised state statutes. It modifies a lot of definitions uh of fire um fireworks standards about manufacturers selling of fireworks. Um, it permits licensing fees and penalties from the state fire marshall's office, which has um direct access to all 115 counties, including the city of St. Louis, involving the sale of fireworks. Um, it also that law also stated fees be deposited in the fire education fund uh for the cigarette fire safety standard and firefighter protection act fund. And the fire marshall can revoke or suspend any permit on evidence that there's influence of alcohol or elicit drugs or controlled substances. And the fire marshall also can refuse issuance of a permit with an individual or partner of an individual who's been under past um suspension. Uh it governs some other areas um when it comes to our county code. First of all, we're a first class home rule charter county and we could go above and beyond what the state law says. The state law is a minimum of parameters that set the governance and

the minimum requirements and qualifications. Um, I like how this is set up. We've been refining it and getting a little bit more stricter each year with some of the things that I brought up and recommended. Um, I'd like to make the following amendments uh on page one of seven uh under number uh two conditional use permit um requirements. Stands uh shall be up to 1,000 square ft uh I'd like to amend from $2,000 fee to a $3,000 fee and stands over 1,000 square ft uh should remain at $4,000 fee. This is a huge industry. There's a lot of money that's taken in from the sales of fireworks during the small window of about uh 10 or 14 days that we're talking about. Under standard conditions of approval on page 10 of 7 1A, the setbacks um calls for a minimum of 50 ft. I'd like to amend that to 100 ft to ensure public safety and the requirements of any uh protection of dwellings. Uh number one B states 20 ft from the lot lines. Well, in most cities and municipalities uh in the county, we have setbacks of at least 25 ft on uh the side setbacks. And so I'd like to see that be amended to 30 ft from 20 ft. See, in that same section on page two of seven, no motor vehicle shall be permitted within 10 ft of the tent. I'd like to amend that to 25 ft to ensure the public health, safety, and welfare of everybody uh involved in the sale or the customers who um come to these tents. Uh E under that same section 1E tent shall be located not less than 50 ft. Um I'd like to amend that to 100 ft from the following areas. Retail propane dispensing devices, above ground storage tanks of flammable or

combustible liquid, flammable gas or flammable liquid, liqufied gas, compressed natural gas dispensing devices or motor vehicle fuel fuel dispensing devices. I think that that's a simple common sense uh requirement that we should amend that uh part of the code. Number two deals with interior tent space requirements. The only issue I have is um 2B where it's uh talking about 10 ft outside of the structure uh shall be the finished ground level um shall be cleared of all flammable and combustible material and ve vegetation. I'd like to amend that to 30 ft. Um I think that that is a reasonable amount considering the amount of explosives and uh firework um that is being stored on the property. On page 407 of the proposed code number 4A, fire extinguisher requirements, no fewer than two portable fire extinguishers with a minimum of a 2A rating. I'd like to see that amended to be three fire extinguishers um with at least the capability of all dry chemical and 2A rating. Um moving on to page five of seven, storage requirements.

Mr. off. I'll give you one more minute.

Okay. Storage requirements. Um I want to make sure that we're meeting all regulations of the state fire marshall's office as outlined in Senate Bill 81 that was passed and signed into law by the governor. Page six of seven uh under sales of fireworks. Um, number three, um, I I have a real problem with employing children 16 years of age around explosives and fireworks and the requirement that there be a 21-year-old. I think everybody at the facility should be 18 or above, considering what we're speaking about. And finally, four, underneath that uh, issue required sign discharge of consumer fireworks is prohibited at all times and unincorporated St. Charles County. We need strict adherence along with page seven and seven number five needs to be strictly enforced the prohibition of sales um of firecrackers, fireworks, torpedoes, bombs, pins, wheels or fire balloons. And finally, I'd ask that we have spot checks by both our county code enforcement division, our county division of building and our police department on routine patrol to ensure compliance with all seven pages of the proposed code. Those that's my testimony on that bill. I hope you approve my amendments as I've outlined them and thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Anyone else have uh any public comment regarding the proposed firework stand regulations? Anyone? We'll close the public comment uh period for the firework stand regulations and bring it back to uh the commission. Anyone have any questions, comments, suggestions, amendments? I have a comment. Michael,

is it on? Yeah. Okay. Um, the age limitation I don't agree with. This is probably bad to say, but I was 13 working at a fireworks stand. We're not lighting them off. 16 I feel is is an adequate age. They don't need to be 18 years old or 21 to to sell fireworks. They're selling them. So, thank you, Mayor. Any other comments? I'll make a motion to approve the 2026 fireworks stand regulations as presented. Is there a second? Second. Motion's been made and seconded to approve the 2026 fireworks stand regulations. Um, all in favor say I. I. I.

I stand approved. Um, before we start in with the firework applications, one thing I forgot at the beginning was to welcome Mr. Brian Nolan, uh, who's our newest member to the planning and zoting commission. So, thank you.

Welcome. Thank you. Uh first item on our agenda is uh application FWK26-01 which is a conditional use permit request located at 3120 West Clay Street. The property owner is TGL Properties LLC. The applicant is city citywide fireworks LLC Adam Bogle. Uh the current zoning is C2 General Commercial District. The location is three uh 3120 West Clay Street located on the northeast corner of the intersection of West Clay Street and Gway Street adjacent to the city of St. Charles, this is located in council district 6. Staff,

a fireworks stand has been approved at this location since 2019 and the department doesn't have a record of any complaints submitted. Okay. Any questions for staff regarding this application? Hearing none, we'll open the public hearing for application FWK21-06. Ask the applicant to come forward. The applicant is here. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear affirm to tell the whole the truth the whole truth truth or nothing but the truth in these proceedings from the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Adam Fogle, 107 Elman Farms Drive, Welen Springs.

Okay. Anyone have any questions for the applicant? Seeing none. Thank you, sir. Okay. We'll now open the public hearing for FWK26-01. Anyone wishing to speak?

You swallow me swear our firm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings under the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Ronnie C. AC Doof, County Public Advocate. mailing address PO Box 1535 Infallen 63366. Um I don't have any opposition to this uh fireworks uh stand. It's been in existence as the uh staff person said stated since 2019. Um I have not heard of any complaints or any um uh comments from any of the residential uh districts not too far from this location. Mr. Mr. Chairman, if you could take my previous uh amendments to the fire code that I presented to the commission and make that part of the minutes so I don't have to go through them, uh I would greatly appreciate that. And um that'll apply to all the fireworks uh permits which I'll be talking about. Um I appreciate it.

That'll be done. Thank you. Thank you. Uh anyone else wishing to speak regarding application FWK26-01? Anyone? We'll close the public hearing. Um, any questions for the applicant for staff? Hearing none, the chair will entertain a motion to approve application FWK26-01. So moved. Motion by Miss Bar. Is there a second? Second. Uh, was that you, Mr. Mr. Shell? Mr. Shell. Okay. Mr. Quinn, how do you vote? Yes. Uh, Mr. Mr. Knee Miller. Yes. Uh, Miss Bar? Yes. Uh, Mr. Nolan? Yes. Miss Kurtner? Yes. Miss Omera? Yes.

Mr. Shell? Yes. And I vote yes. That's approved. Next uh is application FWK2602 condition. This is a conditional use permit request located at 58 West Highway in property owner is Stanley and Beth Carter. The applicant is Southern uh Sapphire as Stephanie uh Gent. Uh current zoning is C2 General Commercial District. The location is 58 uh West Highway in located on the south side of West Highway in approximately 350 ft west of Baron Lane near the city of Wentzville. This is located in council district 2. Staff,

a firework stand has been approved at the same location since 2021 and there's been no record of complaints being submitted. Any questions for staff regarding this application? Seeing none, we'll open the public hearing for FWK26-2. Anyone wishing to speak? Do you solemnly swear or firmly that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, these proceedings under the pains and penalties of perjury? Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you very much, uh, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Arie C. ACO, county public advocate, mailing address PO Box 1535 in Fallen. First of all, I'd like to make it a matter of record. Um, I think it's very important that people who file an application with the commission take this application seriously. And when people don't show up personally to explain their cause or the reason why they're asking for the application or if there's questions from county, I'm sorry, county commissioners, planning and zoning commissioners. I think that um shows lack of responsibility and so I want to make it a matter of public record that I it appears the applicant has not appeared before the commission. Uh the second thing is that uh my testimony with my amendments to the fire code uh be part of my testimony. The third issue is this is on the busiest highway, uh, an evergrowing Missouri Highway N. Um, and I do have some concerns with traffic congestion, traffic mitigation, um, backup of cars trying to make a left-hand turn um, into this property. Um, I don't know if there can be some signage or something to alleviate rear-end collisions or accidents. There's a number of accidents according to the Missouri Highway Patrol and our St. Charles County Police Department in terms of the congestion. As you all know, there's many homes and many neighborhoods that are growing up on Highway N without the safety enhancements and making this road a five lane highway similar to Highway K. Um, it's a country road and it is lacking shoulders, it's lacking sidewalks, it's lacking a lot of the safety amendments that we need on this highly um uh residential corridor. Um, those are my comments about the traffic issues. Uh, if there's something we can do to notify the public uh that there's a fire stand uh at this location, I think that'd be greatly um advisable. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak regarding application FWK 26-02? Anyone? saying, you know what, we'll close the uh public hearing uh bring this back to the commission. And for the for the record, uh I uh have known the property owners for 25 years. I have no financial interest in this property or this firework stand. Um so, Cher will entertain a motion to approve uh FWK2602. So move. Oh, Janette. And is there a second? Second.

Yes. So made the second. Uh motion's been made and seconded to approve application FWK26-02. Um Mr. Shell, yes. Uh Mr. Quinn, yes. Miss Mr. Ne Miller, yes. Miss Bar, yes. Mr. Nolan, yes. Uh Miss Omera, yes. Miss Kersner, yes.

And I vote yes. Next is uh FWK a application FWK26-03 which is a conditional use permit request located at 910 Old Bryan Road. Property owner is West American Fireworks Stands LLC. Applicant is uh Godar Construction LLC uh West Wesley J. Godar Gender. Uh current zoning is C2 General Commercial District. The location is 910 O'Brien Road, located on the east side of O'Brien Road, approximately 620 ft north of Veterans Memorial Parkway, adjacent to adjacent to the city of Oallen, located in council district 4. Staff,

a fireworks stand has been approved at this same location since 2024 and there's been no complaints. Any questions for staff regarding this application? Hearing none, we'll open the public hearing for application FWK26-3. Is there anyone wishing to speak? Applicant Oh. Oh, I'm sorry. Hold on, Arie. I'm sorry. I'm getting ahead of myself. Uh, applicant is a familiar face. You solemnly swear affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes. Please state your name and address for the record.

It's West Godard, number two, Godar, Court of Found, Missouri. Any questions for the applicant? Thank you, sir. It's been there since before 2004, though. It's been there since 2019. So, and I've had no complaints as far as I know since then. So, Okay. Thank you. Thanks. Now, we'll open the public hearing for FWK26-03. You solve swear affirm tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you very much, members of the commission. My name is Arie C. AC Doof, County Public Advocate. Mailing address, PO Box 1535 in Oalling. Uh, this property is in a a quiet neighborhood. It's at the end of a deadend street. It abuts uh the westbound lanes of I70. Um, I've been to this location. Uh, the gentleman um has been here every year with his application. I applaud him for that. Uh, he runs a tight ship. Uh, it's clean. It's uh he follows the rules and regulations. I've heard of no complaints. There's also some residential dwellings that he abotss and I've heard no complaints from those neighbors in that neighborhood. Um I have no objection to granting this fireworks permit. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak regarding this application? Hearing none. Um any questions for staff? Chair will entertain a motion to approve FWK26-3. Is there a motion? So moved. Oh, Mr. Ch made the motion. Is there a second? Second. You have Miss Ome the second. Motion's been made and seconded to approve application FWK2603. Mr. Shell, how do you vote? Yes. Uh, Mr. Nolan? Yes. Miss Kersner? Yes. Mr. Neem Miller? Yes. Miss Bar? Yes. Missur? Yes. Mr. Quinn?

Yes. And I vote yes. Next on the agenda is application FWK 2604, which is a condition of use permit request located at 21 East Highway in uh a property owner is the Baker Family Company 2 LLC. Uh the applicant is Marramac Specialy Company, Tom Dixon. The current zoning is C2 General Commercial District. The location is 21 East Highway N located on the northeast corner of the intersection of Highway N and Highway Z. uh near the city of Wsville located in council district 2. Staff,

a fireworks stand has been approved at this location since 2015 and there's been no complaints submitted. Any questions for staff? Right. Now we'll ask the applicant to come forward. You solemnly swear or affirm that you tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings on the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Tom Dixon, PO Box 305, Arnold, Missouri 63010. Okay. Any questions for the applicant? Thank you, sir.

Thank you. Uh we'll now open the public hearing for FWK26-04. Anyone wishing to speak? You solemnly swear our firmly will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings under the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Arning C. ACO, county public advocate. Mailing address, PO Box 1535 in Oallen. Again, this is a long-term fireworks uh permit holder. Uh this person, I believe, is uh on the Association of Missouri Fireworks and has been involved in state legislation trying to make it more um um calling the bad actors and try to make better legislation for public safety, which I applaud. Uh this is on the ever growing Missouri highway and corridor. As you all know, there's new subdivisions, new houses. There's, as a matter of fact, 30 to 50 new residents residences, new citizens moving into this corridor each and every week. Um this person keeps a tight ship. Um has followed all of our county codes and requirements. Um, I want to make sure that my um amendments to the fire code uh uh fire code stand regulations that I testified to are part of this these minutes and part of the record. Um, I have no objection to granting this applicant his fireworks permit. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, sir. Anyone else wishing to speak regarding application uh FWK26-04? Seeing no one, we will close the public hearing. Anyone have any questions for the applicant? Hearing none. Chair will entertain a motion to approve application FWK26-04. Is there a motion? Mr. Neiler cut him down there. Uh, is there a second? Second. A second. Mr. Quinn, how do you vote? Yes. Uh, Mr. Shell? Yes. Uh, Miss Kersner? Yes. Uh, Miss Lamra? Yes. Mr. Knee Miller? Yes. Miss Bar? Yes. And Mr. Nolan. Yes.

And I vote yes. We're getting there. Okay. Uh, next on the agenda is application FWK26-05. This is a conditional use permit request located at 2301 Upper Bottom Road. Uh, the property owner is Taco Upper Bottom Road LLP. Uh, the applicant is Marramax Specialy Company Tom Dixon. Current zoning is C2 General Commercial District. The location is 2301 Upper Bottom Road located on the northwest corner of Upper Bottom Road and Missouri Route 364 near the city of St. Charles. This is located in Council District 7. Staff,

a firework stand has been approved at this location since 2018 and the department has received no complaints. Okay, any questions for staff? Hearing none, we'll ask the applicant to come forward. You solemnly swear affirm you will tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings under the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Tom Dixon, PO Box 305, Arnold, Missouri 63010. Okay. Any questions for the applicant? Hearing none. Thank you, sir. Thank you.

Now, we'll open the public hearing for FWK26-05. Arie, why don't you just sit in the front row down there and say the law? Hey, I get my steps in. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings under the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Sorry, I'm making you laugh.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Ry C ACOS, um, county public advocate, mailing address, PO Box 1535 in Fallen. I'm just going to make it real simple this time. Ditto. It's the same applicant as the previous uh fireworks application. Uh the person is respected in the industry. He's a professional. He knows how to handle the fireworks. Um has all his ducks in a row and follows both the state and our county code. I have no objection to the uh to the application for the fireworks stand. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Anyone else wishing to speak? Hearing none, uh we will close the public hearing. Any questions for the applicant? Hearing none, the chair will entertain a motion to approve application FWK26-05. Is there a motion? So moved. A motion by Mr. Shell. Is there a second? Second. Mr. Ne Miller, how do you vote? Yes. Uh, Miss Kersner, yes. Uh, Miss Bar, yes. Uh, Mr. Shell, yes. Mr. Quinn, yes. Mr. Nolan, yes. Uh, Miss Omera, yes.

And I vote yes. One more to go. Next uh on the agenda is application FWK26-26-06. Uh this is a conditional use permit request located at 3803 Highway D. Uh the property owners Osage Land Holdings LLC. The applicant is Marramax Specialy Company. Uh Tom Dixon. Uh the current zoning is C2 General Commercial District. Location is 3803 Highway D located at the northwest corner of the intersection of Highway D and Highway Doubled D. This is located in council district 2. Staff,

a firework stand has been approved at this location since 2024 and the department has no record of complaints. Okay. Any questions for staff? Hearing none. Ask the applicant to come forward. You solemnly swear or affirm that you tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings under the pain penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Tom Dixon, PO Box 305, Arnold, Missouri 63010. Any questions for the app? Seeing none. Thank you, sir. Thank you. We'll now open the public hearing for FWK26-06. You slely swear affirm that you shall tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. These proceedings are under the pains and penalties of perjury.

Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Ronnie C. ACOS, uh, county public advocate. mailing address PO Box 1535 in Oallen. Again, this is the applicant on his third application and ditto all my other testimony. Um, I appreciate you making that part of the permanent record. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak regarding this application? Seeing no one, we'll close the public hearing for application FWK26-06. Any questions for the applicant or staff? Hearing none, the chair will entertain a motion to approve application FWK26-06. Is there a motion? So moved.

Motion by made by M. Second. Uh Mr. Sh made the second. Mr. Quinn, how do you vote? Yes. Uh Mr. Ne Miller? Yes. Miss Omera? Yes. Uh Mr. Nolan? Yes. Uh Miss Kersner? Yes. Miss Bar? Yes. And I vote yes. Me, too. Oh, Mr. Shell, you vote. Okay.

There. Now, the next uh application is a CUP26-02. Uh this is a conditional use permit located at 1872 Schnar Road. Uh the property owners are Grey Stoke Farms LLC, Barry Upurch. Applicant is Gina Butler. Uh the current zoning's a a agricultural district. The conditional use request is a request uh uh permit for a writing stable stable. Uh the cup area is 16.17 acres. The location is 1872nar road located 5,300 ft west of Morrison Lane on the north side of Schnar Road. This is located in council district 2 staff.

Yeah. Uh, I got a presentation pulled up. Um, as you mentioned, it's for a writing stable. Um, the subject property is at 16 acres outlined in red. Um, it was actually just recently split um, via the minor subdivision process. Um, and the nearest homes to this property have the gold star. Um, and they're all zoned agricultural and they either have uh single family residents or it's a single resident single family residence in a farm. Most of this area is rural residences with farm or vacant agricultural uses. So, as we stated, this is a riding stable. And the way we define that is um outlined in the UDO, which is a facility used principally for pleasure riding, polo or driving of horses and ponies, which may also include uses such as shows in riding arenas and the training hire or sale of horses or ponies as additional uses to the principal use of the facility. So when we analyze this, this is really what we're trying to gauge the application against. In terms of the applicant's request, it's mostly um outdoor pasture and paddic areas for the horses to uh um train um and mosy around it. Um there's going to be two buildings. One's in a 8 8,900 ft indoor riding arena and then a 5700 ft um stall barn. 16 of the 25 horses that they're requesting to have on site are going to be housed within um the stall barn and then 16 will be housed outdoors. Um as you saw in that definition, there's multiple things that can happen with a a riding stable. Um according to the narrative, they're only proposing to train horses by appointment only. Um and then to do limited horse care um and

some training of the horses. Um and the horses will either be the personal um horses of the property owner or uh private clients. When we analyze conditional use permits, um section 405510B of the county code outlines the five things we should be looking for when we're evaluating this. Um those are those five. I'll go through each one of them briefly. The first one is would the proposed conditional use permit be detrimental to the health, safety or general welfare of the public? Uh based on the application, our uh our finding is it won't um the proposal of this operation will operate as an appointment only and includes um a manure uh management plan and a site management plan um with adequate fencing and minimal lighting. The next standard we use is would the prop proposed conditional use permit injure the use and enjoyment of surrounding properties. Again, staff finds that it won't um the noise, lighting, and activity levels associated with the riding stable would remain consistent with the typical rule and agricultural uses in the area. The third criteria is that would the proposed conditional use enter the aesthetic values of the surrounding properties? Again, our finding is no. all planned structures including the barn and the indoor arena, fencing, accessory buildings, etc. Um, they're all going to be agricultural style facilities similar to what's already existing out there along Schnar Road. The fourth uh criteria we evaluate is would the proposed conditional use permit substantially diminish or impair surrounding property values? As with almost every conditional use permit, we have no data available to suggest that this conditional use will substantially diminish the property values of surrounding properties. Finally, would the proposed conditional use permit impede the normal and orderly development of the surrounding area? Our

find staff's finding is no. It's again, it's consistent with the rural and agricultural character um of the surrounding area. As a matter of fact, I believe there's a handful of um stables and equestrian centers out there um in the vicinity as well. Terms of who we notified, the agencies on the left, standard um agencies in the county that we notify, 15 land owners were in the notification radius and we received um no comments from an agency and no letters of opposition. In terms of consideration and staff recommendation, as you guys already know, you have three options. approval, approval with conditions or denial. Um, but with all that being said, the planning and zoning division recommends approval of the proposed conditional use permit subject to the conditions found in the staff memo.

Questions for staff? Hearing no questions at this time, uh, we'll open the public hearing for CUP26-2.

Yeah, get my brain straight. I've been gone for two months. Ask the applicant to come forward. You solemnly swear our firm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings on the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Uh, please state your name and address for the record. Uh, Jenna Butler, 466 Honeysuckle Creek Drive in Wsville. Okay. Go ahead, ma'am.

Um, thank you for your time and consideration to hear my proposal for a riding stable. I am the owner and head trainer of Greystone D LLC, which provides training lessons and care for privately owned horses. I have worked with horses my entire life and have been a professional trainer for eight years. It is my intent that my proposed horse training facility be a private, peaceful, and safe place for me to operate my horse training business. We initially intend to build a 16stall barn, indoor riding arena, as well as associated fencing and structures for storing equipment and supplies. We have taken great care to design the facility and overall property in a way that maximizes horse welfare. Most things that would bother any neighbors or potential neighbors also bother our horses, including loud sounds, bright outdoor lighting, and offensive odors and pests created from waste. In the future, my husband and I will be building our private residence on this property. This property is not intended to be a public boarding barn with heavy traffic and associated noise. Our operations, like many agricultural and ecoin businesses, do require us to be caring for the horses before sunrise and after sunset. Horse care is a 247 commitment, especially if a horse ever becomes sick or injured. Due to the design of the facility, tasks carried out inside the barn indoor arena would not disturb neighboring properties as they are set back a minimum of 190 ft from the nearest property line. We would like to request that condition six from the staff report regarding training and lessons only occurring between 7 and 8:00 p.m. um under the staff recommendations be um removed or amended to reflect normal operations of an agricultural property. While I understand the intent behind establishing reasonable operating parameters, this particular limitation does not reflect the practical realities of operating a horse training facility, horse care and exercise schedules are often dictated by animal welfare weather conditions, client schedules, and competition schedules rather than standard business hours. Uh, for example, horses sometimes need to be exercised very early in the morning, sometimes as early as 4:30 or 5:00 a.m. prior to traveling to competitions. In the summer months, early morning lessons and training rides are common in order to avoid excessive heat for both horses

and riders. Similarly, evening riding may occur after sunset once temperatures have cooled. Many of my clients also work traditional full-time jobs which require me to be available uh for early morning lessons and into the evening. These are standard and widely accepted practices within the ecoin industry, including local barns throughout St. Charles County. Thank you for consideration regarding my full proposal and the amendment. Okay. Thank you. questions for the applicant. What was the time you wanted to change it to? Um, preferably like 4:30 to 10:30 p.m. It doesn't It's not um common that we're working those hours, but there are certain days of the years that it does happen at those hours.

Do we even need it at all? There is other I'm sorry. Um, some previous conditional use permits that don't list any hours. Um, and I have an example of that if you want to see that. Does training horses and and lessons, I mean, does that cause a lot of noise? I mean, are you yelling? Is it pretty quiet? No, it's supposed to be a very quiet yelling at the horses, but I'm just not supposed to. Just feed them apples. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if there's anything that would disturb your neighbors. No, honestly, I don't think anyone should know we're even in the building if I'm working them. If a horse has to be worked at 2:00 a.m. in the morning and it's an indoor arena,

right? More power to you. I don't know that that's I don't want to be there, but yeah, but I'm just questioning if we need it at all listed in here. No, I understand that. I guess my question is it's not always going to be indoors though, right? Sometimes you're going to be outdoors. Not at 4:30 in the morning. Okay. Well, I mean, my concern is the average person is probably not going to know whether you're training a horse or whether you're up at 2 a.m. because you're delivered a baby, right? So, I mean, there's so many things. My recommendation, honestly, I sympathize. I grew up on a farm myself. Uh, I know what you're going through. Like, I I probably wouldn't have restrictions on ours.

It's not It's not something that's going to disturb the neighbors. So, I don't mean the whole point of a restriction is to keep people from being disturbed, right? You don't know when you're going to get the call. And I don't know if the average person is going to know the difference between you walking a horse out and feeding it or training it. So, they're going to I would think people would try to classify everything as training when you're going to be up at 5 6 a.m. feeding probably every day, I'm assuming. So, how would your neighbor know whether you're training or feeding? I think it kind of I think too much gray area.

There's another interesting take on this. I mean, we as we don't we don't generally do a lot of agricultural stuff anymore in St. Charles County. Not a ton. But those of us who live in subdivisions can drive our cars whenever we feel like it. And horses traditionally and historically have been a form of transportation. If you want to take your horse out riding, that's quieter than starting up your car and driving. So, I don't see why there should need to be restriction on you using a form of transportation or, you know, if we want to take our dog out or something, there's no rules against that. So, I see that.

I have a question about uh the proposed uh number recommendation number eight, no more than 25 horses shall be permitted on the property at any given time. I believe somewhere there was a mi going to be a in the staff report a mix between personal horses and uh let's call them private for for now is is that um uh still your proposal the 25 yeah that that'd be total horses my horses client horses okay uh my question is should we note that in um in the recommendation that this 25 is both a combination of both uh personal and private. It just says

it says 25 horses permitted on the property at any time. Yeah, I think it's really up to you what you'd prefer to do. Okay. A horse is a horse, of course. Of course. I mean, my my concern about number eight is is what if she buys the land next to her and then it becomes one parcel. Why should she be restricted at 25? It almost needs to be horses per acre in my opinion. generally. So by right horses are allowed personally in agricultural zoning and there's a standard of one horse per acre

but that can be amended through a conditional use permit. So in this case you'd only be able to have 16 horses versus 25. Um but I'm not sure I'm not exactly sure the conditional use permit would apply to the property to the new property. So she'd have to come back here anyway to get it right to expand it. I guess I should say actually I have a question. You mentioned that you wanted to build your um personal residence on the same property or on an adjacent property? Same property. Is that going to be an issue if we have a conditional use permit that she can use this for this particular use? Can she then also build a residence there without coming back? Yeah, it's a it's permitted by Right.

Okay. Just wanted to double check that that was going to be okay. I got one quick question. Is as far as this is basically a farm. Do we limit farm animals? I mean, if they had cows on here before, how many could they have? Does I don't have a good answer for that. I know there's something in the definition somewhere I think that our code takes from the department of agriculture at the state level about how many animals agricultural animals but I don't know that off the top of my head I just don't like to arbitrarily give people

usually we defer to the applicant and we condition it based on what they say and you're you're fine with 25 25 is more than It's a lot of horses. Any other questions for the applicant?

For me, I guess I just kind of want to make sure that maybe it's a lack of understanding on my part, but are you is there any restrictions to whether it's you or even the next person after you? You know, there's there's a lot of different things you can do with horses from an income perspective that would potentially stop them or are they are they I mean can they bring people on and do income producing activities as in bring your kids and riding them and those kind of things? I just kind of curious.

Yeah, let me let me go back to the definition. I think it might mention it there. I mean, we'd have to look at it, but presumably, yeah, like it's a shows is something that they can do. Um, I know when most people think of a horse show, they think about, you know, hundreds of people coming to the site. Sure. Um, it's something we'd have to look into more. Any other questions?

Seeing no one. Thank you. Chair will now open the public hearing for CUP26-02. Anyone wishing to speak? You solemnly swear or affirm tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Ry C AC Dino, county public advocate. mailing address PO Box 1535 in Oallen. St. Charles County was built on agricultural. Our history and our roots date back to when we had um probably 95% um agricultural uses. Um I believe the government has a role in a particular area, but when it comes to agriculture, I think the county needs to back off and be less restrictive. In reference to this applicant, I'm glad that the applicant had the gumption and the fortitude to stand up for our application. And some of the commission members questioned staff's recommendation. It's very important that we don't put too many restrictions or too many uh restraints or covenants upon private property owners. I'm a big believer in St. Charles County property owner rights and that property owner rights are smarter than government and that they know what the rules and regulations should be for their own property. I also have concerns with number six and eight on the staff conditions. Number six restricts the applicant's hours of operation from 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. I think this is way too restrictive. If any of you have been on vacation or ridden horses, you want to get up before the crack of dawn. Get on the horse and get out before the sun even comes up to enjoy the sun sunrise. And so, um, I would like to see a minimum of 5:00 a.m. until 11:00 p.m., uh, 7 days a week. Um, and I think it's I I I don't really don't think an hour restriction should even be put on the conditional use permit. I think that should be up to the property owner rights. I'll tell you what, a horse sounds no different than a cow, a goat, or other farm animals that are walking on the property at, you know, 4:00 or 5:00 a.m. in the morning. And uh I would

imagine the closest I looked on the map and I couldn't even see uh find on on the map where the closest residence is that somebody could possibly be disturbed. People that I know that ride horses aren't going to be having a party or act wild or play loud music. They want to enjoy the scenery and the beauty that St. Charles County rural districts have to offer and they want to enjoy nature and and be get in touch with nature and I don't think they're interested in partying uh at that time of morning or even at the night when they're riding a horse. The next issue is number eight uh of the um conditional use permit u that staff has placed a recommended um condition. The number of horses, guess what? That should be up to the owner, the owner's right. If the owner wants to have 50 horses on her property, then they should be able to have 50 horses on their property. It's not government's right to be intrusive and to tell them what kind of farm vehicles that they should have or how many vehicles that they need to run their farm operations. You know, I believe and I and I saw the professional applicant who put in time and effort and wrote her business plan and I'm very impressed uh that she filed that information with the county planning and zoning division. It's up to her of how many horses that she can handle and take on. And I don't think she should be restricted to any number. And so I would ask the commission graciously that you remove both number six in its entirety uh entirely and number eight in its entirely of the conditional use permits. Our county division of planning uh in my opinion has gone too far with this applicant. And um my apologize my apologies to the applicant. Um, I believe government's role is to protect the health, safety, and welfare. But when it comes to agricultural areas when there's no residences involved or subdivisions or neighborhoods even remotely near this facility,

I I just say you need to back off planning and zoning division and let the applicants um enjoy have the enjoyment and the pleasure of owning their own property and setting their own rules. For those reasons, I'm very supportive of this conditioning use permit. It goes to our heritage of our county and I ask that you remove number six and eight. It is in its entirety. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak regarding this application?

Seeing no one, we'll close the public hearing. And for the uh record, number eight, the 25, the number 25 of horses to be permitted was at the uh suggestion of the applicant, not the staff. uh ask the applicant to come back. Does anyone have any additional questions for the applicant? Seeing no one. Thank you.

Thank you. Um, at this time the chair will entertain a motion to approve uh application CUP 2602 with the following recommendations proposed by staff. I'd like to make an amendment. No, hang on. Oh, hang on. I'm I'm going to read the recommendation. All of them? No. No. Uh my motion is we approve it with recommendation number one, number two, number three, number four, number five, number seven, number eight, and number nine. And that's your motion. That's my motion. Second.

Is there a motion? You have to make the motion. I was about to say the chair can call for a motion. One of the board Yeah, I'll second. Okay, I call for a motion. Yeah. Uh cheer I cheer call for that motion. Miss Bar made the motion. Mr. Shell made the second. Uh Mr. Neem Miller, how do you vote? Yes. Uh Miss Omera, yes. Miss Kersner, yes. Mr. Nolan, yes. Miss Bar, yes. Mr. Quinn, yes. Mr. Shell, yes. And I vote yes. That passes.

Okay. Um, next on our agenda is application RZ26-01. Um, this is a resoning request for 5304 Guttermouth Road. Property owner is uh Edward G. uh uh Lykan Family Revocable Intervival Trust and the Kepler Family Revocable Living Trust dated September 15, 2015. The applicant is Mckelby Holmes. The surveyor is involved surveying uh the current zoning is R1 single family residential district to R1D single family residential district. The location is 5304 Guttermouth Road located 2,000 ft east of the intersection of Guttermouth Road and Highway 364 on the south side of Guttermouth Road. This is located in Council District 3. Staff,

good evening commissioners. Uh I just want to note that this resoning application is related to the next one uh the next preliminary plat on the agenda. So there may be some overlap in my presentation. Um okay. So this subject resoning consists of three parcels uh totaling 9.45 acres of land uh which is currently zoned R1A uh with minimum 1acre lot sizes. Uh the proposed zoning district is R1D which would allow for 10,000 square foot minimum lot sizes. Uh there's three subject parcels. Uh one of them is occupied by a dwelling and two accessory structures. Uh those would be demolished and the other two pieces of land are open vacant vacant. Sorry. Um the surrounding land uses include uh larger lots to the north uh to the northwest. Those are roughly three acre lots. And then to the east, south, and some of the north, there is subdivisions um with with lot sizes that would be similar to the one proposed in this resoning. Um this proposed resoning does reflect the area's transition to less or to more dense housing on smaller lots than 3 acres. um the subject property fronts on Guttermouth Road uh which it would be taking access from. Uh this road is currently being upgraded by the county right now. Um the proposed reasonzoning is consistent with the future land use plan as it does recommend uh low density uh residential uses. Uh with all that being said, the planning and zoning division recommends approval of this application.

Any questions for staff? Hearing none. Uh chair will ask the applicant to come forward. Do you solemnly swear or affirm tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings when the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Uh Jeff Tale, um 424 Southwoods Mill Road, uh Sweet 110, Town and Country, Missouri. Okay. Go ahead, sir.

Make sure we um chairman and members of the commission, thank you for your time tonight. Um this is a 19 lot uh proposal um on right around 9 and a half acres, 9.45 I believe. Um and um we are proposing our designer series homes, which I'll show you a few here in a in a moment. Um a little bit about McKelie. We are the longest standing builder in Missouri. Uh been around since 1898. Um and then for the last 25 years or so. Um uh Jim Brennan uh about 25 years ago purchased the company from uh Bob McKelie when he was looking to transition out of residential real estate. Um we've kept the McKelie name. Um it has stood for quality throughout the years. Um and the Brennan family is um continuing that tradition here in St. Louis. Um, as you can see, we've come a long way since the early years. Uh, we don't move dirt like this anymore. Um, you know, everything has an an engine now. Um, but, uh, uh, kind of funny with the application before this having having horses involved in, you know, talking about how

operating a farm. So, um, and then, uh, why Mckelby? So, we're always picking prime locations, you know, um, as I think many of the neighbors would agree because they chose to move there, too. This is a prime location off Guttermouth Road. Um, in currently an unincorporated St. Charles County, um, but in the Cotleville area, uh, many of these, um, neighborhoods have been annexed into the city of Cotleville. Um, and then, uh, our superb designs. So, um, we've continued to update our designer series of homes over the years, add some new plans, um, things of that nature. Um, update the elevations with the times and color schemes and and so forth. Um, you know, we're we're always looking to improve the quality of the materials that go into our home and hire the best craftsman to build our home. Um, and our personal service, I think, is what sets us apart um, from a lot of the other builders in St. Louis. Um, you know, uh, the Brennan family gives out their cell phone numbers to every single one of our homeowners. Um, and we're always willing to, um, speak with the public, meet with the public before we do a development. So, um, about a week ago, um, we held a meeting at Old Hickory, um, in one of their meeting rooms. I met with some of the residents. We invited the Estates at Timberleaf um HOA members as well as the Prairie Bluff HOA members um and heard some of their feedback there which I think you'll probably hear some more of that tonight. Um and uh you know we'll take some of that those things into consideration. Uh we understand their concerns um and uh you'll hear from them tonight and uh we'll be happy to answer any questions. um a little bit, you know, so a little bit of our history here again. Um one of our very very early

developments um obviously before the Brennan family um purchase the um company um and then some of our other designs over the years. So um the designer series um so here's one of our elevations. Uh, the Lasal is one of our most popular ranches, about 2,800 ft². Um, threecar garages are included in all of our designs. Um, and then, uh, you have the option to add additional bedrooms, bathrooms, things of that nature. Um, we do allow pretty much full customization if a customer wants to do that. Um and some of the interiors that you see here. Um taller ceilings, open floor plans. Um this is Mirfield, a story and a half plan that is very popular as well. Um some interiors of that one as well. And then the Turnberry, which is uh one of our largest plans. Um another story and a half plan with a master down. Um these are our three most popular plans. There are six or seven other plans. um in the portfolio there as well. Um generally just kind of a color, you all have seen obviously the staff report. Um this is the colorized kind of rendering of of the site plan. Um this is what we shared uh last Wednesday with the residents as well. It kind of shows the bright green areas are showing our um common ground areas. Um there is proposed to be two um detention basins uh on the property uh to handle storm water. Um and generally those are going to be held at some of the lowest points of the property um because that's the way the storm water goes and we're not trying to force it in a direction that it's not wanting to go. Um

um one of the things that that we have um on our site uh we are requesting R1D um zoning um within St. Charles County. Uh there have been a few other properties uh within the last 10 years or so. U obviously estates at Timberleaf which we are adjacent to. Um that is uh an R1C designation within Cotleville. Um so some similarities, some differences. Um our minimum lot width is 80. Uh our minimum lots will be 82 uh foot wide because there are 7T sideyards. Um for example, the estates at Timberleaf is a 90 foot wide uh R1C within Cotleville. Um the minimum square footages are the same at 10,000 square ft. Um the front setbacks are different by five feet between the county and Cotleville. 20 for us, 25 for them. Uh the rear setbacks are the same at 25 feet. Um the sideyard setbacks are 7 ft uh for Cortina that we're proposing and estates at Timberleaf are 6T sideyard setbacks. Um the average lot size in our development is 13,673. Um the smallest lot is about 600 square feet larger than the minimum and then there are some even larger um closer to 18 and 19,000 square ft. Um overall we're proposing 2.01 houses per acre um which is generally um in conformance with the area around us um and should fit very well in our opinion um with the densities around us. questions for the applicant hearing. None. Thank you, sir.

Thank you. We are now we'll now open the public hearing for RZ26-01, which is a reszoning request for 5304 Guttermouth Road. Uh I will uh tell you that all that we are Go ahead, you come forward. All that we are considering at this point is the reasonzoning. Okay. uh nothing to do necessarily with traffic or water flow. That would come next uh because after this application, the next one is to approve the preliminary plat where we deal with those issues. Okay. So, uh do you solemnly uh swear or affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings or the pains and penalties of perjury? I do.

Please state your name and address for the record. Donald T- Meer, 184 Shortleaf Pine Drive, uh the estates of in Cotville, the estates of Timberleaf.

Okay. Go ahead, sir. Uh since we're only dealing with that, we're opposed to the R1D that doubles the density of, you know, there's 64 homeowners in the Timberleaf subdivision and everybody bought that understanding that the adjoining property that McKelie is choosing to develop was one acre and to uh permit the R1D which under the proposal that will be talked about uh they're doubling the the density. Well, when you double the density then obviously you create a lot more water runoff. You've you know a lot of issues and you change the the quality of the the the surrounding property. So there are many of us I think there were on the previous uh map there are many homeowners that that back up to that and and so you know our our position it should stay as as one acre and and and not you know for nine lots instead of 19. Okay.

I mean we have a lot more comments but we'll withhold them if you go forward. Thank you. Thank you sir. Anyone else wishing to speak regarding this application? Anyone?

Do you solemnly swear firmly will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings from the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record. I'm James Henry. Uh my address is 113 Short Leaf Pine Drive.

Go ahead, sir. Um, so I'll be speaking on both issues since we're just now talking about the R1 to uh R1A to R1D. Um, my issue with that is currently I back up the field. 5 and a half of these 9 and a half acres currently the water flow um comes to Shortly Pine Drive. In particular, behind my home, there's a sewer inlet that catches the water from this field, this 5 1/2 acres, um that that flows into that that inlet. Um so, just with some rough estimates, sir, we'll talk about that preliminary plat. Okay. Okay.

When when the engineer gets up here. Okay. All right. Okay. That's all I got then. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Hi, my name is Shay Hicks. I have to swear to you. Yes. There you go. You solemnly swear affirm that you tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings on the pain and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Shay Hicks, 105 Short Leaf Pine Drive. Go ahead, sir.

Um, yeah. I just I know these issues are two separate on the agenda, but they're related. And they're related for a lot of reasons. A lot of the things that these people have come to talk to tonight relate to all the problems that this neighborhood as proposed is going to cause our neighborhoods. We've already seen the neighborhood across Guttermouth come in and all the water issues that have been um put in place by that neighborhood and this is kind of the last surrounding neighborhood that backs up to ours like Mr. Henry.

So speak to us.

Yeah. Like Mr. Henry, if we could put up that that uh picture of the plot or the plat as proposed. So, my house also backs up to the lot 19 and all the water back there in that back corner. And all of that is proposed to be sucked out under our neighborhood and out to the street across and taken across into another joining neighbor's yard. The problem with that is we're on a hill. And I I I recognize it's two separate issues,

but you can't separate the two when you consider the fact that we're here tonight to talk about the neighborhood as a whole, not just, you know, allowing them to expand and then we'll get into that issue. We want to combine these issues and talk to them as a whole. Now to McKelby's credit, they have started conversations with us previously and have invited us to basically meet with them and discuss concerns. I have no problem with Mckelby. I think we can work out some of these issues before, but I urge you not to rush into approving something that's going to cause more problems not only for our neighborhood, but for the surrounding area. And with that, I'll leave it for now, but please consider this one issue and not too separate.

Anyone else wishing to speak? Drop my card off yet. Thank you. You solemnly swear I affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings or the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes. They should state your name and address for the record. Chris Keithley, 193 Shortleaf Pine, Cotleville 63304. Go ahead, sir.

Yeah, just a an observation. Um, new to the process, but it kind of feels like our cart is before our horse. Um, McKelie has obviously spent a ton of money coming up with PL plans that we're going to go over next, but it seems like it was all based on a an assumption that R1D is already done. Um, so I don't know how this usually works, but it seems like we as a a group of citizens would have figured out the plot sizing before we get into doing the uh the approval of the layout because, you know, as we previously saw, it's it's clearly R1D. Um, so I just hope that the decision hasn't already been made until our fellow um people in our neighborhood and the rest of the citizens can give an opinion. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Since these are two different applications, that's why we have to separate the issues. Okay, this one is just the reasonzoning. Uh so the commission will consider whether we should reszone this to R1D. Um and then after that uh we will have the other application which addresses uh the issues of uh entra e ingress egress uh traffic concerns uh water uh flow those types of things but but we're required to separate these issues.

Can I can I make a little bit of a clarifying comment? So this particular thing that we're voting on now is just basically for the lot sizes. It's like do we want to have one acre lots or do we want to have minimum 10,000 acre lots. That's really the only thing we're voting on. Now the next thing when we talk about the plat it assuming that this were to pass would be then about the how. So exactly how it can be built where the water runoff goes all of that kind of such. Understood. Can I address that? No hold. She says the floor. You solemnly swear our firm will tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. In these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Uh, state your name and address for the record.

Christine Summers 205 Shortleaf Pine Drive, Cotleville, Missouri. Go ahead, ma'am.

So, I just want to make sure it's clear why we're so concerned is it exasperates the problem if we double the density of the houses. As we show here, or they they took it off, but if you double the amount of houses, you got double the houses, double the driveways, double the road. All that now is going to be watershed. And I know that's our next discussion. But the point is if we approve that we're going to double the density that exasperates the next disc discussion we have. So I think the cart before the horse was a really good point because if we say okay go ahead and double the density we've now just made the next conversation that much more exasperated and difficult to solve. So that's why we're really trying to hold back this step because it's just going to make it that much worse for the next discussion as far as watershed. Thank you, ma'am. Anyone else wishing to speak?

You've already You've already spoken.

You solemnly swear our privilege to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings with the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you very much. Uh, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Ronnie C. AC Dinov County public advocate mainly addressed PO box 1535 in Oiling our county cod codified code chapter 405.090 subsection I R1A is a minimum of 1 acre lot R1D is a minimum of 10,000 square ft and R1 C is a minimum of 15,000 square ft. We have an R1B which is 20,000 square feet. Um I have a lot of uh heartburn uh along with this uh development um with the resoning. Um as the neighborhood it had said in Cottville there are larger lots. Um I feel that there needs to be a compromise worked out between the neighborhood between county staff and between um the applicant. Um, I would like to recommend when it comes to the resoning that the commissioners look at the R1C option, which would be 15,000 square ft uh minimum lot size. Um, I think that that is a compromise that is doable by both parties and I think it's in the proper fashion of our zoning code and especially this neighborhood to look at the R1C option. For those reasons, I have to oppose this application on its merit and on its face uh as presented by the applicant. And I'd be in favor of amending the zoning plan, which I'm not sure if we can do that at that time. That'd be an attorney question. Uh but uh the applicant, I think, is just asking for too much um bite out of the apple. Um, unfortunately it has a lot to do with politics and campaign contributions and we need to be cognizant of how that happens, especially with county council members on developments. For those reasons, I have to be opposed to this application. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Anyone else? You sir, you've already you you've you've spoken. Okay. Anyone else? Anyone else? Anybody else? Anybody in council want to hear from the gentleman again? It's coming up.

Yes, sir. You solemnly swear or affirm that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings under the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes, sir. Please state your name and address for the record. Robert Friend, 222 Short Leaf Pine Drive. Go ahead, sir.

Connville. Um my wife and I after losing our former spouses uh decided to move from St. Louis County to St. Charles uh about 8 years ago and have been uh very happy in in our home in in uh Calville. At 85 years old, I'm looking forward to uh the equity in our home being available to um moving to a retirement center or wherever possibly Bereves Park or something like that. And I have a concern that if you start adjacent to our subdivision, making uh much smaller homes, uh that this could depreciate the equity in the homes that are in the area that we live in. And uh there's some other issues regarding flooding that we don't speak to today, but uh uh take into consideration uh reduced equity because of smaller homes being built in adjacent to that. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Anyone else? You solemnly swear our affirmative tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings with the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes. Please state your name and address for the record. My name is Don Lang, 104 Startle Pine, Kado, Missouri.

Go ahead, sir. I the discussion on the zoning issue part of this is that I would request that you deny the application and leave it the current zoning because then I think we can work with the developers and I also would then recommend the possibility that we can they could approach the city of Katavville. Our community annex into the city of Katville. The new subdivisions across the street on Goodmouth have moved into annexing the Catavville. I think it would be in the best interest of the future residents of this new subdivision that we would have a unified zoning, unified police force and a unified uh person to talk to our concerns of potential future problems if there are problems. So I think by deal with the zoning issue, if you deny their zoning request to increase the u density, it would then lead to discussions at that time. They could then approach the city of Catville. I have talked to the city of Catville and they did not uh did not approach them at all about potentially coming into the city of Catville and I we in the meeting last week we I talked to them at that time. So that's my recommendation. Thank you very much.

Thank you, sir. Anyone else?

You so swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings with the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. My legal name is Sharon. I go by Sher Hickeyi. My address is 109 ShortLeaf Pine Drive. And I am up here just to ask if you would please consider tableabling this decision until we go to the next part because they are so related. And going from 19 down to eight or nine houses corrects a lot of the concern that we have with this with this project. And so could you please consider tableabling this until we get to the other part and hear the whole picture.

Thank you ma'am. Anyone else? Anyone else wishing to speak regarding uh application RZ2601?

You solemnly swear or affirm that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings on the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Terry Emerson, 101 Shortleaf Pine Drive in Cotleville. Um, while we obviously have a resounding request for denial for this, we understand that development for the sake of de, you know, you're there's always going to be progress and we understand the land's going to be developed at some point. That's not the question. I guess I'm kind of echoing Sherry's remark to table this, but table it for a week. Let us work something out. Let's figure out something. Let's give them a plan B to come back to this with a different plan because you're right, you can't go from all of these from where it's zoned right now and the issues that the previous developers of our neighborhood had for there to be a way for it all to there they are too related. So to not have that sponge anymore to be fractioned down from all of the development, if you're going to go from what it's currently zoned at to much larger zone like to to where we don't have the sponge to soak up all that rainwater, that's the problem. So that's pretty much it. Thank you.

Anyone else? You solemnly swear our affirm tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth in these proceedings from the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Monson 2011 Shortleaf Pine Drive Cot Missouri. Go ahead, sir.

So I just wanted to, you know, kind of state for the record. I did write a letter of opposition for this one and the next one. In addition to the content of the letter of opposition that I wrote, I'd also like to state here that when I purchased the property 10 plus years ago or about 10 years ago, it was really within the understanding of the current zoning of what it was. You know, we purchased the property with that understanding and my property backs directly to the field there back there. Yes, there are a lot of concerns about water, right? But it also there's also a lot of concerns about reducing the or changing the zoning from R1A to R1D and that increased density and how drastically that changes the whole neighborhood structure around it is a huge impact and I don't think that the commission should have a quick vote on this. I think you ought to really understand the impact that this does to the entire community around by embedding a 10,000ish square foot lots in the middle of the estates of Timberleaf.

Thank you, sir. Anyone else wishing to speak? Seeing no one, we will close public hearing for RZ26-1. I ask the applicant to come back. Any questions for the applicant?

So, a couple of things. Um, I'd like you to kind of point out, and you may have done so already, but we've talked about a lot. Can you compare for us the the home size that you're planning to build and the lot size that you're planning to build with the home size and the lot size average in the neighborhood that's going to be surrounding you? Yes. So, the size of the homes um specifically are very similar to what Lombardo built in the estates at Timberleaf. So, our designer series essentially competes side by side. So, like how many square feet are we talking? Uh I think the smallest one is 22 to 2300 ft². Okay.

And the largest one would be over 4,000 ft. Okay. So, very similar to because we've tal Some people have talked about Okay, well these are smaller homes. So yeah, your contention is that they're similar homes, correct? Okay. And what about the lot sizes? Um, so the lot sizes and I think um obviously staff prepared the median lot size is around 13,000 square ft. So obviously when you look at the median, it it takes out the very far fringes. So um when when you look at the estates at Timberleaf, so the minimum is also 10,000. There are some lots that are close to 10,000. Mentioned they were R1C.

R1C in the city of Cotleville. Um which is a minimum of 10,000 square ft. Okay. Um so essentially the same zoning. Yeah. And and so as far as sideyards are considered um you know is the closeness that the houses can be on the side there you know there would be a minimum of 14 ft in between the houses. It's going to depend on the plan. So many of our houses are 68 feet wide. And so the minimum a lot could be is 82 feet wide. So it's actually above what the minimum is already as far as width. And how does that compare to the estates at the estates at Timberleaf is 90 ft wide. Okay.

With 6ft sideyards. Oh, so so there's 12 ft minimum in between the homes. So you're actually going to have more space in between your homes. We're going to have an additional Yeah. an additional two feet, okay, at a minimum in between for the for the minimum in between the houses. You know, a lot of that's determined on, you know, the layout of the lots and outside curves versus inside curves and corner lots and things of that nature. Yeah. So,

so there's been a lot of discussion about water runoff and I understand that this is in the next section, but I want to specifically bring it up because I find it curious that it's being mentioned so often and it makes me wonder, especially because of some of what the residents have said about the issues that their own builder has had and obviously that has nothing to do with you, but is there already a water problem that's happening now that they're afraid that you're going to exacerbate? So, just to kind of give you an idea, um, is this red the pointer? Is that okay? Can everyone see the dot up here? Yes.

Okay. So, one of Timberleaf's basins is is right here and there's a flared end that comes out of it's a dry basin um just like what we're proposing here and here. Um so one of the things um is that we cannot do is take our storm water through our basin. So we are proposing to take that water that's going through their basin first being detained um being released slowly. It will go into this storm system that is separate from the rest of the storm system and it will be piped all the way down here around our basin and come in oop sorry um and then come into the flared end or not flared end uh box culvert structure. Right now there's kind of a uh I don't want to call it a sump, you know, an area that sits lower where where this water kind of works its way across this property. Um and gets into this sumped area. Um and you can kind of see a little little uh I don't know swail of some sort that's kind of cut through there. Um or that has been cut through there over the years, I'm guessing. Um, and it this is full of rock rip wrap um, uh, large revetment, whichever you want to call it. And then I believe this was installed as part of the Guttermouth Road improvements, this double box cover or double pipe here. Um, and maybe this rock was part of those improvements as well. Um, but this goes under Gutermouth Road and then works its way to I believe it's Crooked Creek right here. Um, so essentially this is being detained here. We're going to take that same water that was kind of surface draining, pipe it around and then come

this way while also detaining our storm water runoff into this dry basin. So, it sounds like what you're saying here, and correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like what you're saying is that you're not only trying to contain the water that that your building would create, but that you're actually trying to solve some of the problem that's already there now, and you're trying to make that better. Yes. And we're required to make we're require Yes and no. Sorry. Sorry. Uh so to answer two parts of your question uh I'll start with the first one is we are required to take the runoff that comes off of our property

postdeveloped post-developed condition. Okay. So when you're saying that the water goes into this dry basin, you're not talking about current water. You're talking about water that will go there after it's correct. Yeah. This basin doesn't exist currently. Okay. And neither does this basin over here, which will be the second part of this. And um and Dave, you can come up here at any I would love to time. So Dave Bulls is our engineer. Um much smarter and wiser than I am. You know, I know the general concept of how this works and what we're required to do, which is to basically take the storm water runoff post development and make sure that it doesn't leave our site any faster than it currently does.

So, you're basically saying you're not going to make things any worse or that's your your that's what we're required to do per our improvement plan. So, I guess my question was and and maybe this is a question for public comment, but that time is over. Why are we hearing, and if you don't know, then that's fine, but we're hearing so much talk of this water, and somebody else said there's a sponge now. And I guess my question is, is there currently a problem with water that they're already having that you know of? Can we just swear in the engineer? Yeah. Or we can wait for the site plan,

right? This is all site plan. Well, well, it sort of is because I mean, as they said, you know, if you have double the density, if you have 20 houses instead of 10, you could very well have more issues with storm water. And so, my question really is, is there a current issue with storm water or is this something that they're afraid will happen? Because those are two separate questions. Uh, currently, I mean, I don't live at the site, you know, I'm not there all the time, so I can't I can't answer that question specifically, but Okay. Yeah, let's ask the engineer. Do you solemnly swear our firm you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, and these proceedings are the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please uh state your name and address for the record.

My name is David Boss. I'm with BS Engineering, and our address is 10849 Indian Head, St. Louis, 63132. Okay. So, you go ahead and uh answer. I have never been to a hearing where there wasn't a storm water problem existing. I hear

everybody everybody says that and and that's true. Water water runs downhill and it goes onto other people's sites. I'm not sure how detailed you want me to get into at this point, but I can tell you that uh you know we we had previous meetings with with the residents and they pointed out a lot of problems and and one resident in particular pointed out that there's many springs that they think are around here and particularly I brought my own pointer. Um, got to turn it on though. Particularly right here underneath under they have a wall right here. There's a spring there. So, I've heard about many many springs which we're going to point out to our our soil scientists and soils engineer who who will evaluate that. But when when I when I'm up here presenting the site plan, I can talk about this detention basin and this detention basin and where the highs and lows are. But, you know, this water basically and I'll describe how detention work goes into a closed system. So that inlet right there, instead of sheet flowing off here in into these properties here, we're going to discharge into an enclosed system into a pipe,

right? So it's going to cause less water to affect these houses because it's going to go into a pipe rather than going into their yards. So you can laugh, but that's the truth. So you're R1 R1D is a quarter acre roughly, correct?

Thousand square feet roughly quarter acre. Now you have nine acres and you're talking about 19 homes which is on average a half an acre per lot. Now obviously there's some common ground. So they're going to be smaller than that but um theoretically if all of it was perfectly flat and you didn't have to worry about any of that. Theoretically you could do what almost 40 homes on this at at R1D. You're not planning on doing that. Is there a reason why you're wanting R1D as opposed to R1B or R1C? is that to basically make it so that you can do your 19 homes and still have your common ground and everything.

So the R1D allows 80 that the product that they want to build build on here which is their designer series which is a really nice nice home. It's the ones that you see at Inesse. It's a really nice home. It takes an 82 foot wide lot and the code for an R1D is an 80ft lot. So So we're going to make these lots 82T to fit that house. So that's the zoning district we need to fit the house uh that that we're proposing right there. And by the way, the density that we're proposing on this is 2.0 units per acre, which is less even though the these lots are 90 ft wide. Theirs is 2.3 units per acre. So we're actually proposing less density.

And I would also point out that the master plan, the comp the comprehensive plan already envisioned this. So, I'm I'm I understand people bought and it was zoned R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R 1A at the time, but the comprehensive plan that this that the county has approved and that's been in existence, you know, for many many many years envision this being reszoned to to uh actually more dense than this. So, uh that that would be all I'd had to say. Sorry, sir. It's not the right time. Hold on. And I can and I could describe how the detention works. No, you're fine. I'm just I'm guess I'm just trying to figure out like because it was mentioned so often

if you knew if there was something that was already happening that we don't know about, you know. I guess I just want to clarify from your perspective, you you feel like the water situation will be better with what you're building than what it is today. Is that I do. Yep. Okay. I do think that. And I'll explain that when when I'm talking about the site plan, how the detention basin works. Any other questions for the applicants?

What What's your price point for these houses? Um, so we expect these to be very similar to um what we're selling for in our Inest development, which is at Brian and Fisy, not too far from here. Um, and our finished pricing has been anywhere from, you know, the mid7s to over a million dollars there. So, similar to the surrounding subdivision, very similar. Any other questions for the Does anyone on the commission want to hear this gentleman's comment?

Sure. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Just to be clear, this is very irregular. The public comment section time is actually over right now. I understand. Okay.

The only reason for this additional comment is the applicant said that the St. Charles County master plan included the expectation that this would go down to R1D. The master plan actually states lowdensity housing and lowdensity housing for this section is one to four homes per acre and R1A is also one to four homes per acre. So anywhere from R1A to R1D. So it's not a pre disposition that it would go down to R1D. Thank you. Okay.

Any any other questions for the applicants? Any questions for staff? I have a question for staff. Um, by doing the zoning, does it lock in what they can have per acre? Because somebody brought up about putting this off to afterwards, which that sounds good.

If the reasonzoning were approved by council, yes, they could a development with 10,000 square foot square foot lots could be approved. So, we recommend it. County council approves it. They could slice and dice this at 10,000 square foot lot. Well, they still have to have a plat approved, right? They Yes, they could. and they would still have to have their preliminary plat approved by you guys and then signed by the division director and then a final report properly. How can you turn down a sorry, what if it's if it's zoned for a 10,000 square foot lot, how could the county council deny that?

Well, the the plat has to be built according to the rules that you know as far as storm water retention and all that stuff. So, they have to build it properly. It has to meet the technical requirements of section or chapter 410 which include storm water zoning setbacks, all the bulk regulations and all that jazz. Okay.

You have question. I have a question. Why? Because of their concern. Why did we do this first and not the water issue first? That's always how it's Oh, it is. Okay. I didn't know. It has to be reszoned before we can vote on a plat. Yeah. Yeah. I guess the zoning would have to be in place for us or for you guys to consider the preliminary plan. Then the plat is contingent on resoning. So if the council denies were to deny the reasonzoning the plat effectively is void too. Yeah. What about tableing? I don't know the person.

You go. You got one minute. Something different. All I would say is come to the microphone. You're already sworn in.

Yes, sir. Thank you for the extra time. We have no problem with McKelpy as I've said. I I think that what I'm hearing from everybody is we just want the opportunity to sit down and understand this plan better to work with them to come to an acceptable resolution of how this will work. I'm confident we can do it. My understanding with the water and Mr. Henry can talk better about it because he lives right where that intake is, but it takes the water in our already existing water um drainage system, takes it across our street to another neighbor's yard into his water basin that's already has issues, takes that to another water basin on the far side right next to Guttermouth. and then under Guttermouth where they're having big-time water issues with the neighborhood across the street that's already been designed. So, it is a huge problem for us.

Sure. I think we're we're we're willing to work with McKelie. Again, we have no issue with McKelie. we can get to a place that we can be comfortable. But I understand as it goes, we can have a certain number of our neighbors step forward and sign a petition that would prevent them from being able to do that. And we could easily do that. We don't want to do it. We just want to work with them to come with a reasonable solution. That's why I would ask that you table this vote and give us the proper time to work something out. Okay. Thank you, sir. Any other questions for the applicant?

Can can I just make a little bit of comment about the process?

So, you guys might know this already, but this is this vote doesn't actually do anything. Okay. So, this vote takes us to where that then goes in front of the county council and it's the county council's decision that is the final decision. We're only doing a recommendation to the county council. So, I just want to be clear on that. So, even if this vote were to pass today, it would still go before the county council. we would still have a good amount of time to sit down with the developer to discuss different things before it came to a final vote in front of the county council. And then of course we also have an issue where even if the zoning were to pass, they then also have to have the the plat approved. And that's what we're going to talk about now. Um and then you mentioned about as far as like having a petition. That's really an Arie question. Um, my understanding and and Arie can correct me if I'm wrong here, but uh that the petition what that does is actually say that the county council has to have more votes. It doesn't actually say that you can prevent it. It just says that the county council has to have more votes to to over to be able to pass it.

Okay, one one more comment here. Even if we deny this both of them, the county council can overrule, right? It still goes to the county council. They they can do whatever they want no matter what we do. If you approve it, it's more likely that they not not necessarily. Not really. Okay. Any other questions?

Come. Come on. You're the last one. Okay. You're it. Okay. Ma'am, I have some tips. Oh, sorry. You solemnly swear our firm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. In these proceedings are the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Rita Lesley, 5402 Old Gooduth Road, St. Charles, Missouri. Go ahead, ma'am. Okay. Um, they're talking about all the waterways and all the water is they're worried about the water. I'm just saying right now their subdivision's water goes onto the land that they're trying to build right now. There's a basin there and that goes right through their middle. I'm sorry. goes through the middle of that land there. Okay.

So, they're talking about their water worried about it. All that water goes down to that their water goes down through that land already. Okay. So, I I guess I'm confused. I'm to me their water already is messing up the water there. So, they're going to have to fix it. McKel is going to have to fix that waterway before they can build another land. So, I guess I'm just confused on them talking about all the water when their water's already going on somebody else's land already. Okay. Thank you, ma'am. All right. Thank you. Okay. Um, where am I at here? Okay. Any other questions for staff comments? Okay. Talking so much.

The chair will entertain a motion to approve application RZ21 or 26-01, which is a reasonzoning request for property located at 5304 Guttermouth Road. Uh, is there a motion? So moved. Motion by Mr. Shell. Is there a second? Second. Is that Mr. You, Mr. Neil Miller? Was that you? Correct. Okay. Mr. Quinn, how do you vote? Yes. Uh, Miss Bar? Yes. Miss Kchner? Yes. Mr. Nolan? Yes. Uh, Mr. Shell? Yes. Uh, Mr. Neem Miller? Yes. And, uh, Mr. Omira.

Mrs. Yes. a Miss Ome. It's been a long night already. I know. Yes. Mrs. Ome. You vote yes.

Yes. And I vote yes. Okay. Um, next item on our agenda is the preliminary plat request for 5304 Gammoose Road. This is application P26- uh 01. Uh, property owner is the Edward G. uh Litken family revocable intervivos trust and the Kappler family revocable trust dated September 15th 2015. The applicant is Mckelby Homes. The surveyor is Vol engineering. The uh current zoning is R1A single family residential district R1D single family residential district. The location is 5304 Guttermouth Road located 2,000 ft east of the intersection of Guttermouth Road and Highway 364 on the south side of Guttermouth Road. This is located in council district 3 staff.

Okay. So, like previously mentioned, there's going to be a lot of repeat stuff, but I'll try to keep it concise. So, uh the proposed preliminary plat would create 19 lots uh with minimum 10,000 square foot lot sizes. Uh there's common ground which includes 2.38 acres uh for storm water detention. Uh St. Charles County is currently improving the uh guttermouth road uh where it fronts on these properties. Uh the this phase of the project facilitates traffic flow, improves safety, uh provides pedestrian and bicycle access, uh flattening hills, straightening curves, curb and gutter drainage, and then also a 14 foot wide multi-use path on the south side of the road, which is the same side that this development would be on. Uh the preliminary plat has taken into account those improvements. So that's that's good. In terms of tree preservation, uh our ordinance requires uh residential developments to preserve a minimum of 10% of the site or 25% of the trees and/woodlands uh whichever is greater. Due to the scattered tree pattern, uh the applicant has formally requested to the director of community development that this uh this be waved uh and opt for an alternative uh tree preservation plan, which would include planting three trees for everyone that is removed. Um I can't speak a lot on the storm water and the the details of that. I not knowledgeable on the whole how that works. Uh but with all that being said, this this plat does meet the requirements of chapter 410, which includes our storm water um requirements. So we would recommend that this be approved uh provided that the county council approved the previous resoning.

Okay. So this uh proposed plat meets all the technical requirements. Yes. Okay. Any questions for staff? Other questions for staff? Seeing none, we'll ask the applicant to come forward. man with all the answers. I swear you in again. This is a different application. You slely swear or affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings from the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Uh my name is David BS. I'm with BS Engineering. And our address is 10849 Indian Head Industrial Boulevard, 63132. Um David,

sure. And if I could can you take me to the site plan? Yeah, there you go. So again, we're re we're seeking reszoning of the 9.4 acres site from R1A to R1D along with this preliminary plat. And I'll be brief because we we've covered most of that, but let me talk about the drainage. Well, let me talk about the traffic first. So So the entrance, you can see right here, we're lying directly up with the entrance across the street in this existing subdivision up here. Originally actually we tried to put an entrance down here but we were having difficulty with the site distance and we u just felt like that was a better place to put it. It's aligns with the existing thing. There's good sight distance there. There's not a traffic issue on this one-c until I guess there won't be after Good is built. I when we had our meeting a lot of people talked about that and how long that's taken. Um but so I hopefully that'll be done. It'll definitely be done before our subdivision uh comes online. it. So, uh, I want to talk about the storm water. And let me just talk about how the site drains to begin with. So, this area right here is is actually one of the highest spots around. And this is at a 515. And to give you a perspective, down here, it's 490. So, that's a 25 ft fall between here and here. So, that's why that detention basin is there. And then down here, it's actually lower. It's 485. So, the site falls from here to there. it it falls this direction and it falls that direction. So the previous speaker on the other petition was correct that the water right here is actually coming onto us and then and then what Jeff Taley had pointed out is we're actually and required to pick up that water and we're taking it and bypassing our basin so that our basin uh functions properly then the water but there is water that goes to the east and I think that's where most of the people are talking about because like I said this water is going this way. So the water that's going to the east right here currently it does sheet flow off here and it goes into a system right

here and then it goes eventually down into an existing basin that's down there. I know like I said previously that that they pointed out that there's various springs and things like that on the property. Um I don't know why there'd be any more water flowing off this but like I said every every development I ever do that's always an issue from the neighbors. They always are concerned about storm water and it's a legitimate concern. But here is how here's how we handle storm water in and it's a requirement of the county. It's a requirement of all the municipalities we work on. And first thing I'll point out is previously back in the older days, detention basins were done differently than they're done now. So now the requirements that the county has and the municipalities have is much more stringent than than they used to be. So the whole concept of detention basin is that that uh and and you build a doghouse and it creates more water. So anytime you do anything it creates more water and we factor that in. We we calculated how much new imperous surface that that is generated but the water goes into these basins and they have an overflow structure. So the basin is intended to detain the water. So the water rises up instead of leaving the site and then it leaves the site through a smaller smaller opening the hole in the side of the structure and that controls the amount of water that leaves the site. So the amount of water that leaves the site at any given time is not any greater than it was before we do the development. So the water that's leaving that point isn't isn't increased at all at any given time. Now what makes detention basins different now versus in the years past is is uh we used to design them and this is 20 years ago um for only large storms. So if you had a large storm, it would come in and it the basin would work. But a small storm, the water would come in and just go right out. So if you had a storm that occurred every one year or every two years or every 5 years, the water wasn't really detained. It was only detained for larger storms. That's that's totally

different now. So now those basins are designed for with small small uh relief pipes so that so that we're detaining for small storms the ones that happen you know throughout the throughout the year and and also large storms. So that's the one big difference but in this particular case and the basins do more than just uh detain water by the way they also do water quality and things like that. So water quality would be, you know, when you whenever you pave anything, there's there's roads that have oils on them and things like that. People people, you know, have fertilizers and stuff like that that that water when it goes into the basin, it it actually gets treated for for water quality to to purify the water before it it leaves the site. Now, this basin, Jeff's right. I mean, that that's going underneath the road and it's going away. There should be no problem. I mean, the people downstream, it's going to go into the creek right there. This basin, like I said, it leaves it leaves right here, this overflow structure, and then eventually the water gets down here. But we're tying into an a closed system. So rather than just discharging on the neighbor's property and having it go down into a ditch that's on their property, it's going into a storm sewer. It's going into a we're going to tie into an existing manhole. So So it's not going to cause any more water right there. In fact, right now where water from here can just sheet flow onto these properties when it leaves the site, we actually have to collect it because we have to do the water quality. In order to do water quality, you have to collect the water that's leaving your site. So, so basically from these units to the they actually drain to the street and then into the system so that we can we can do the water quality. So the only water that's going to be going sheet flowing onto these people to the east is the water from the backyards of the house which is less than is going there now. So so that's that's how uh we design those things and that's how those things work. Um with that I I can talk about the lot

sizes. The the these lots are um we're proposing are are going to be 82 ft wide. The average lot size and I'll say this because I don't think it was part of the it's a new record. The average lot size in this community is 13,673. That's what our average lot size would be. The average lot size in in uh Timberleaf, which is around us is 14,46. So, we're very similar. I will say that the density because by put by putting the entrance right here, you know, we have these basically dead spots here and we actually have dead spots here because the shape of the property is kind of kind of odd. Uh so because of that, our density is actually very very low for a community like this. It's actually 2.0 units per acre where the community around us is not high either. It's it's 2.3 units per acre which is also, you know, I would consider that low density. Um, across the street here in in Cotville is Prairie Bluff and those lots are 75 foot wide and and their average lot size is 12,000 just over 12,000 square feet. So So this is uh fits the community well. It's it's very similar to everything around it. Um, and I'll just point out again that this is the designer series, Mckely's designer series, which is which is one of their nicer, bigger products, and it's very, very, very similar to what uh Lombardo would build around there as well, because it's a similar similar size lot. Um, and it's what they build in Dardian Prairie. And I'm going to tell you a quick story uh that about one time I was I was in Jim Brennan's office and I was meeting with him about something. phone rings and he answers the phone and it was a it was somebody that he had sold a house to and he had sold the house to them 10 years ago and he does give his cell phone number out to everybody and I said we hang home with the phone I said what was that about and he said this person just called me to tell me that they're reselling their house and they had an inspection done of their house and they had zero comments on the inspection and that's the kind of quality that McKelie has so Mckelby I is

a great great builder and I'm pleased that that they're doing this I think they're going to do a great job like they like they always do. Um, and I would say that, you know, these are oversized culde-sacs. We we talked to the fire marshall and he wanted these to be uh enlarged, which they're really enlarged. And um, in fact, they are 48 ft in radius. So, that's a big chunk of pavement right there. And um, but they they wanted those to meet the fire code and and we did that. Um, and I believe that's all I have to say other than I I answer any questions. Questions for you.

I did see that in the letter that he said 96 ft, which 48* 2 is 96. So, you met me that. Yeah, I meant the radius. I I was probably giving you the radius. Okay. You had you had talked about the um storm water code. Sure. When was the last time it was changed? It's changed constantly, I think. I think the county actually did it did it fairly recently. So, two years ago. Yeah. About two years ago. So, your your storm water restrictions are more restrict than when the prior subdivisions were built. Yes. It always gets more restrictive. Obviously,

and honestly, uh some of the we we we as a as engineers, we have to make sure that we're we're trying to be, you know, good stewards as well. So a lot of times we actually will increase that even more because you know you need to have certain free boards so that you know a safety factor and we always make sure that we exceed what what the standard is even. Okay. So and we and we've been doing that for 20 years even before that it was required.

Any other questions for the applicant? Hearing none. Okay. We will now open the public hearing for uh P26-01. Anyone wishing to speak?

I have to swear to you in a different application. You solely swear firmly that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in these proceedings are the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

I'm James Henry. Uh address is 113 Shortle Pine Drive. I'm also the owner of St. Louis Gradient Sad and Natural Lawn and Landscape that's been in business for 20 years doing grading and drainage projects throughout St. Charles County. I'm on a preferred vendor list of multiple municipalities throughout St. Charles and St. Louis County. My house is the house along Shortleaf Pine Drive that is directly below the proposed detention basin. When we built our house, Lombardo miscalculated the amount of rainwater that comes through that field and runs into the inlet that is located on my property. Um, we had a 9-in rain the month that I closed on my house and it was a disaster. Everything was bypassing the inlet. So after multiple attempts of uh damming up the water, uh I was able to do that and with permission to grade into that field to collect this rainwater. Uh there'll be a 6 foot wide river for 2 hours after an 1 in rain that flows into the uh the sewer inlet. Um, by increasing it from R1A or for a field to R1D, we're potentially going to increase the water that goes into that inlet on my property by three times what currently happens. That inlet is 8 foot in elevation above my house as well as the two adjoining houses. Which means that if there's any issues with that basin operating in the way that it should, then potentially our houses could be flooded. When I asked one of the co-owners of Mckelby Homes if they

had ever put a detention basin above somebody's home, he said, "I I don't believe so." So although although rare, me in my line of work, I know what happens with these because I've been maintaining these detention basins for 20 years for multiple HOAs throughout St. Louis and St. Charles County. The fact of the matter is that these detention basins clog, okay? Whether it be from debris or trash or or anything that flows down the street. They're proposing to shoot all of the water from the 5 1/2 acres on the right hand side into that detention basin, which will sit and flow into the inlet at a controlled pace. Well, the problem is is is the volume of water is now going to be three times the amount of water that was that was is currently there that Lombardo's engineer got wrong or their grading plan was wrong and I I had to fix. Um so I just you know the the issue is and I'll just end on this is is you know who's going to be responsible if if if if something happens. So, I don't know if there's been, you know, a uh a dam breach analysis or anything else done as far as the impact of this not operating the way that it was engineered to operate, whether it be for an act of God, lack of maintenance throughout the basin, or a dam breach, right, which that dam sits 8 foot in elevation above my home. So, that's all I got.

Thanks, sir. Anyone else wishing to speak? Can you ask him a question? Oh. Well, hold on. You want to ask him a question? Yeah. Can Can I Can I ask you a question, sir? Come back. Hold on, ma'am. She has a question. I'm just curious as a a grading and water professional, would you have a what would be your solution in this situation?

Um, I think I think that this was proposed I'm not an engineer. I don't know how they go about proposing these these neighborhoods, but my assumption is this was proposed out of one convenience and and and affordability, right? Tying tying into our storm system sewer is is a lot easier to do than to run that water to Guttermouth Road where more than likely the infrastructure along Good Road doesn't support it because of the elevation. the elevation at Guttermouth Road right there is is higher, right? So, the easiest thing to do is to run it into that detention basin and then run it into the storm inlet on on our property. Um, so

so as someone who does grading, would you recommend that rather than that be up that things be graded differently to where it goes to a different spot? No, because because that the high point is the road, right? So, the issue is the infrastructure along the road. If the infrastructure along the road is not low enough, they're not going to be able to run the storm sewer that way. Pump. Yeah. Mr. Henry, did you get any relief from Lombardo based on

I did not, but I had to I had to build a a boulder retaining wall. I had to do it two times because typically when you build a wall, you're putting, you know, uh 1in clean rock and and drainage behind the wall. Well, this this is not a regular wall. So, this this had to be a dam. So, I had to, you know, because what happens is is when that water comes through and it's this wide, that storm inlet cannot take that water. So, I've I've created concrete around it, which is constant maintenance because it just continues to wash out and continues to wash out. And it was a waterfall through the boulder wall uh for the first two months. So, we had to rip out the wall and rebuild it. Um, during that 9 in rain that I'm talking about, 40 feet wide was water. I mean, so here's a storm inlet that's 4T wide that's supposed to collect the water from the field. We had we had rainwater 40 ft wide flowing to basically my property because the thing is is right now the waterhed is not evenly dispersed towards Shortleaf Pine. It's yes, there is watershed that goes that way, but it's dispersed mainly to where this proposed detention basin is. So the the problem is is the impact if something goes wrong.

The water is already in that area is what you're saying. There's a storm inlet. There's a storm inlet on my property and it's all going down to that detention basin area already. Correct. the the water from the the what we have now which is a field

but increasing that to R1A which it is now but actually building an R1A subdivision there is going to double that waterhed okay go from 30,000 gallons with an inch rain to 60,000 gallons of watershed with an inch rain with R1A with an actual development there when you put an an R1D development there it's three times the amount of whed that will be collected from this 5 1/2 acre side.

So clarify to me, you're basically saying that you don't you don't see a solution. You don't see a way to safely collect that much water. I don't think it's responsible to erect a detention basin above other people's homes in in in a way that that if it does fail for any reason reasoning engineering an act of God trash lack of maintenance if it fails for any reason multiple homes underneath it are going to be gravely impacted. So, and I and I I'll say like like like some of the other people did, I have absolutely zero issue with McKelie or their proposed development besides this. Um we all we all bought we all knew that this would be developed, right?

But but you don't have any ideas for how to do it differently? I do not. I am not an engineer. Okay. No. Okay. Thank you, sir. You solemnly swear our affirmative to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings with the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Christine Summers, 205 Shortleaf Pine Drive, Cattleville, Missouri. Go ahead, ma'am. Can I offer a print? I asked for plot prints the Thursday after the meeting last. You have something to show? I do. Put it right uh right there. Look at that magic.

Okay. And then we have a pointer here. Anyone know how to use the pointer red one?

Okay. So, I'm going to start with um they showed you the condensed what they're doing. Now, you need to see what the bigger picture is of how it impacts us because that's our biggest concern. So, if we start right up here, um it's not working on the lower side, you see the little uh circle there? That's the upper uh basin that is ours. That's a detention pond. So, that's where it collects and you can see where the arrows come from. Our upper part of our the apex of our horseshoe community flows into that. that then flows down into the field as it does now and then goes into a collection that starts taking up some of the uh this the sewer or the um the storm drain pickups along that area that we're talking about. And then now they're saying that they're going to have another detention pond that will be in this area that's going to collect some of that from the new housing. All of that flows through these houses and ends up in this detention pond. So, what they're failing to kind of explode out is all that water that they're going to be dumping out, and again, it's going to be three times what it is now because of the construction.

Sorry. Talk to us.

All that is ultimately going to end up in that detention pond, which was designed for our community to have sized for our community and not sized for additional water coming off of this new development. So, concerns I have is this one up here. If there is any restriction with any grading or anything that they do in the houses that they're putting in this area is going to restrict the flow outflow of this one which again could potentially flood the area of our houses here. This one again huge concern with anything there that's going to fail or go into the houses along this prop the property line here. This one again a huge concern that all that water now has to go into that detention pond that was not designed for this kind of capacity of water. So this whole thing is all they're they're collecting everything, but they're dumping it into our system that was designed for our community only and the field, not for them to dump into ours. So if we have any flooding issues, that's going to be det that's going to degrade our property values. It's going to be hard to sell our homes. We're going to have the hardship for people dealing with flooding. So their solution, and I'm an engineer, I don't know a solution. You were asking, I don't know how to fix that. But what they're trying to do of collecting it and dumping into our system that was not designed to take their capacity for this development will not work and we're going to have nothing but problems. So what I'm asking for you is deny this request. Put the burden on them to go back and come up with a better storm water runoff plan that will independently handle the storm water that they're creating and not just dumping it on us. Thank you.

So current currently your detention pond is part of Mr. Henry's problem. We have Yes, he he was having issues with his It's not a detention pond. It's a collection point. Those are just storm storm pickups. No, I'm talking about the the flow. This that little red circle at the bottom. So, this this is the detention pond. No, the one up at the bottom. No, this is up higher. This is the This house is up higher. Which one are you talking about, sir? This house is by the top green arrow. Yeah. This is the one that they're proposing. No, no, no, no. your current detention pond. Our We have three. This is our first one.

This is the one we talked about over here. That's going to have to have they're going to pipe it now, which I'm a little concerned about piping right now. It free flows through this field. Yeah. And then our third one is this one, which is what they're saying. They're going to take this detention pond that's taking all this runoff and going to ultimately end up in our detention pond. My question was the way it sits currently, your detention pond that's here at the bottom of course. No, this one flows. This one discharges the outflow of this one comes down and picks up on these um storm drains. That's what I'm saying. So that that water flows down to Mr. Henry's backyard. Correct. Right now today, just the way we said. Correct. Okay. And yeah. And and the storm sewer pipe. Yeah.

This storm stro pipe. And then it ultimately comes down under the road and ends up in this detention pond. Could that detention pond be made bigger? I don't know. But we'll let But that's our that's our detention pond. And again, it wasn't designed for them to dump into our system. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak regarding this application?

You slely swear or affirm that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Sher Hickeyi, 109 Short Leaf Pine Drive, Cotleville, Missouri. Go ahead, ma'am. Can we go back to that plat drawing, please? She's got it. Her her drawing or the or the other the the one that we had before? That's that's her paper. So you ours are plat drawing the green and white one.

Oh, okay. There you go.

Yeah, that's it. All right. I just wanted to point out from what uh Mr. Henry was presenting here also my house is right next door to him. So I am also the recipient of this potential disaster of this very elevated detention pond. My house is one house further up from his. So I'm the third house in on Shortleaf Pine. Currently the property of this field is about 15 to 18 feet above my lawn grade. It is a steep hill. I have a retention wall that was put in by the builder to kind of push that back a little bit. And if they add this detention pond that's going to be they were talking about four or five feet high, we're well over my roof line. And this amount of water sitting up above my roof scares the daylights out of me. one little tiny mistake and literally exploding flooding that's going to just wipe out the house and then we have nothing. Who's responsible for that? There has to be a better way of doing it than putting all this up there. As their owner said, they've never done this before. They don't really know if this is going to work very well. And it's scary to think that this is could happen into my house and lose the lose my house, lose the resale value of it because it now has to be reported that it's been flooded. It's just a disaster waiting to happen.

Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Anyone else wishing to speak? You solemnly swear our firm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings from the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Jeff Beltman. I'm at 148 Short Leaf Pine Drive in Catville. And uh my statement is u the impervious area that the engineer mentioned would be a lot less if there were less houses on there. Would somewhat alleviate any kind of water problems we might have. Uh secondarily, as they correctly noted, Guntermouth Road is almost finished. However, the original alignment of the new construction uh called for three lanes with a turn lane uh precoid. after COVID, it was rebid and it was not enough money to uh do that three lane uh from I guess 364 all the way to Motherhead Road. It is now a two-lane with no turn lanes which essentially didn't accomplish anything in terms of uh traffic and handling of extra homes. Now, we do have extra homes across Guttermouth already. Uh that's added to the traffic. We have a few condos down street that's added to traffic. So again, I'm nothing against homes by Mckelby, but maybe the amount any any reduction in the amount of homes for impervious area for the water or traffic would help us.

Thank you. Thanks, sir. Anyone else wishing to speak? Solomon swear our privilege to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. In these proceedings are the pains and penalties of pertery. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Sheay Hicks, 105 Shortleaf Pine Drive. Go ahead, sir.

So, I live the second house in from the neighbor or into the neighborhood off of Germouth. I live next door to Mrs. Hickey and Mr. Henry. Um, my property probably is got the highest point above. I've got a hill that goes straight up. It's about a good 14 to 16 feet and there's a basin behind my house as well. So again, all that water being collected right above my house if something were to go wrong is likely to end up flooding into our backyard. Um the other thing that I would add is that as they said from Mr. Henry's property line in the back. It takes the water across the street across Shortleaf Pine Drive into another basin that lines up behind another neighbor's yard back there, then takes it towards Guttermouth with that new neighborhood that's coming over um into across the Guttermouth section from us. I don't know if you guys remember back when we had that very large rain that went on for about two weeks straight and there used to be that that uh field over there that just would flood with water. When they built that new neighborhood, we were horrified of where's all that water going to go? I mean, and they built that neighborhood up. So, if you've noticed when it storms, all that water that used to fill that whole um field over there is now in a very short um ditch that's been dug behind and it takes it back to those lakes back

there. When that all builds up with water, adding more and more water into this system is not going to work. I mean, it's just not going to work. Again, the only thing that I would ask is that we table this vote, allow us to meet with McKelie, express our concerns further, try and work out something that'll work for all parties, and be able to come to reasonable solutions. That's what I would ask for.

Thank you, sir. Anyone else? Oh. You solemnly swear I affirm that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings with the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Donald T-ire, 184 Shortleaf Pine Drive.

Go ahead, sir. Um, as was earlier talked about the problem of the detention bond bond detention basin, I'm sorry that most of us are concerned about that's collecting it and instead of McKel's engineers figuring out somewhere how to collect it and distribute it on their property, they're running it under, you know, piping across Shortleaf Pine drive to the detention bond pond that's behind Zadok Woods Court. That detention pond already fills up to the top. It adequately serves our problem in our in Timberleaf when it's filled all the way up. I don't care what they say about, oh, we got a small pipe. It's going to let smaller amounts of any amount of water go there is going to temporarily cause that basin to overflow and then otherwise come over the banks because it can't hold it all and flood these these homeowners whose houses back up to the detention pond. So to that we you know we would ask you to deny this plot plan. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Come forward, sir. Robert, would you hand him a microphone?

Okay, let me let me swear you in. Sorry, I need my glasses. Oh. Oh, there we go. You shall let me swear from you. Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth and these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. Okay, we heard that. Hello. State your name and address for the record, please.

Uh, my name is Sarah Lesley. I live at 542 Old Grimmouth and my land but from against 534 what that one is. And uh what my concern when it rains it floods. We already got a problem. It's like a river coming down through there. Now when they build this more homes and raised that ground next to mine there and they said they going to put a tension pond right on the corner of the hill for an elbow flood. What they going to do with my land? I'm I'm right next to the the double level.

Okay. Thank you, sir. Okay. Thanks.

Anyone else wishing to speak?

No, you can't. Ernie has to go last. Don't you solemnly swear our firm that you tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings are the pains and penalties of perjury. Yes. Please state your name and address for the record. Chris Keithley, 193 Shortleaf Pine, Cotleville, 63304. Go ahead, sir.

Uh, couple non-water related comments. Um, regarding the chapter 410 comment about the removal of the trees on the property. um just would like to relay some concerns that yeah they'll replace those trees 3 to one but it's going to be with three saplings that really won't be to the the level of the existing trees for 30 years. So is would like to recommend some if there's any way to to require the replacements to be of of similar maturity or just really they're tear down the trees to put saplings in their place. So that's a concern. Um the other concern that I have is uh on the on the culdeac the lower culde-sac on the plot here um we didn't maintain the the 20 ft build back around that lower culdesac. So it's actually pushing the that the 20 or 25 ft into Timberleaf property owners land. Uh maybe it's not actually a a legal requirement to have that, but just looking at the plot plan, it looks like that culde-sac was kind of shoved back in there. The uh the only way it would fit just to be able to get more houses stuck back in that little I know it's odd. It kind of sticks down there at the bottom, but it just looks like the the proper uh boundaries within that roadway weren't maintained. So, we'll like the uh council to look at that and see if that needs to be adjusted.

That's all. Thank you, sir. Anyone else? Okay. Here. You want? No. No. You want to speak? I I would. You good? No, you can't. He's got to go last. He has to go last. He gets his feelings hurt if he doesn't get to go last. Thank you. Just made it worse. Roger. Everybody's feelings. You solemnly swear affirmatively to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings of the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Eric Laflur, 226 Shortleaf Pine Drive, Cotleville, Missouri. Um, I along with my neighbors have to express my disappointment in the approval of the previous application and I stand here hoping for denial of this one as well. Well, a denial of this one. Wish the other one would have been as well, but um nothing against clearly Mckelby builds a quality product, right? The quality of their product is not the concern. The density is. Um I along with a lot of my neighbors moved to Cotville because it's a quaint little area. We moved there to get away from density, so to speak. So, you know, when we're looking at this proposed plan, having this number of homes is the issue. The water runoff that it creates, the traffic issue. I don't know if there's feasibility studies that were done. Um, the schools there there have been several subdivisions that have been built. There's another proposal for an apartment building off of Highway N. So there's there's a huge issue from a property value perspective, from a quality of life perspective, um keeping this a desirable area. So we've had several people mention, you know, the property values, uh having a more dense area reduces that obviously. Um and with all due respect, the gentleman said he doesn't live in this area. He doesn't know how the water affects this area. U just last week, week before, I was on Guttermouth. Just happened to pull up my phone as I'm driving by. The new subdivision on the opposite side of Guttermouth from us is running on to Guttermouth. The

So this area here floods as is. This new subdivision here is putting water onto this road as is. We have issues with Mr. Henry. So along this area, you know, not to beat a dead horse, but this this is an issue for us. So we're hoping obviously the last application wasn't tabled. Hopefully this one can there's got to be some resolution. Um I matter of fact I can show you the video. Can does this work with a a video from a phone? If I just there might I'm not sure.

Just to give you an idea of what what we're looking at here.

That's that's fine. So declare I don't know if you can see that. Okay. Not. Okay. So, to the left side there, so that yellow sign there to the left of that is where this new subdivision is going in. Our subdivision is on the right side. So, this standing water here is just a a small part of this issue. So to the left there, you see where this this Oh, there's a glare. Sorry. That where that house is. That's the entrance to this this new subdivision. You see that water's just standing there, right? So that's part of the concern here is that

all of that. And I I drive a truck that was splashing out.

This is up. Yeah, this is splashing up to the mirrors on my truck. Now, it's not a lifted truck or anything like that. It's just a, you know, but it is what it is. I mean, that's and that's this was Wednesday, March 4th. So, we didn't have any torrential rains at that point in time. This was just couple inches of rain that caused that. So the impact of this amount of density is an obvious concern. So hopefully the council will take all these concerns into consideration and deny further density of this once quite neighborhood, this once quite area that we all moved to for this reason, for the lack of density. Oh, I forgot. Anyone else? You saw me swear I affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings under the pains and penalties of perjury.

I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. My name is Arie Cac Dino, County Public Advocate. Mailing address is PO Box 1535 in Oalling. Uh, as you all know, I was against the resoning. Um, in terms of the preliminary site plan, uh, I had some concerns about the culac, but the applicant, um, kind of answered that. He said he met with the fire marshal of the Cville Fire Protection District, and I guess he's making those cults, uh, accountable, um, or accommodable uh, for a ladder truck uh, from the fire district and a bus uh, from the Francis How School District. Um, I like the green space part of this process. I have some major concerns with water issues and especially following the M4 state and county regulations. Um, our state department on natural resources enacted the M4 minimum state regulations which are to control urban stormoff water in cities, villages, and counties. It's to reduce pollution and to manage construction of site runoff. Our county uh M4 plan has six minimum controls. Number one, public education. Number two, public involvement. Number three, elicit discharge, detention, and elimination, which would mean filtration. and um slowly releasing any runoff water collected in a retention detention um area. Number four is construction site runoff. Number five is post construction management and number six is pollution prevention and good water runoff management. Um, I would like to see a mandated storm

water management plan presented by the applicant of how he's going to um obtain the goals of the M4 both at the state and the county level. I think his um so far testimony doesn't address that fully. Um we need to make sure that land disturbance controls are fully in effect in this management plan and the continued manage u continued um ongoing maintenance is addressed. A lot of these times these developers talk fancy at these public meetings. They hand it off to an HOA, but they don't give them the tools or the management uh money necessary to have ongoing continued u maintenance of these areas. And as we heard from somebody in the industry, they tend to get clogged up and cause flooding. And that brings tens of thousand dollars of damages to the residents who are left to clean up the mess while the developer walks away with all the profits and washes their hands of any solutions. We need to make sure, you know, the a lot of money is is is a big talk here and we need to make sure that this plan is done right. We need accountability and responsibility from the applicant and we also need to avoid any future lawsuits. The next issue is pre uh preservation plan. Um, I really didn't hear the details of how he's going to address either 10% um of the overall uh land, the 9 acres, 9.38 acres of how he's going to achieve either 25% preservation or if he's going to ask Mr. buyers for a waiver and plant triple the amount of trees to obtain 10% of the required uh

tree preservation under chapter 405 of our county codified code. I would like to see these people who um have a lot of money invested. Um, I would like to make sure that they're accounted for and I would offer up that the developer be required as one of the conditions, which I don't see many conditions by staff, but I like to see a condition added of either a type two or a type three landscape barrier. I think that's very necessary in this area. It will absorb water. Uh, it will uh plant trees to make a a barrier between these two subdivisions. Um, I'd like to see the planting of uh uh blue spruce uh pine trees. I think that that would be um an added addition to a type two or type three landscape barrier. Let's see here. Um those were my comments about the preliminary plat and I hope that you take them into consideration. The bottom line is we need to get this right. I want to avoid any lawsuits against our county. I want to avoid any lawsuits against the applicant. Let's make sure that the M4 regulations are done properly, that we have some type of landscape barrier, and that we prevent any flooding. As we saw in the video, it's very concerning about the flooding. We want to appease these uh developers who are making a great profit, but we forget about the people left behind. we forget the residents who are already there and they kind of are going to get dumped on when we have a huge storm and they're left in the dust and that's a shame and I think this commission has a responsibility and an obligation to ensure that the residents are taken care of at all costs. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Anyone else? There you go. You saw me swear affirm that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in these proceedings and the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Steve Monson 2011 Shortleaf Pine Drive.

Go ahead, sir. I just like to point out the plot uh plan inclusive of all the concerns you've already heard puts a culde-sac right in my backyard and you can see that from the plan with no green space no buffer uh I mentioned before with the resoning request that the lack the privacy that was used to be there the dense increased density of homes this just exasperates it you know horribly Okay. There's a culde-sac in your backyard, street in your front yard. There's no privacy. Thank you, sir.

Thank you. Anyone else? Anyone else? Seeing no one, we will close the public hearing for P26-1. I ask the applicant to come back. Okay. Any questions for the applicant or do you want to address some of the issues?

Sure, I can I can address the storm water again, but we're not allowed to break waterheds. So, that's kind of a principle of storm water that if the water's going this way, that's the way the water needs to continue to flow because that's the way the creeks work. So, we can't really reroute the water to Good Road and then down that way. That I don't think the city or the or the county would would allow us to do that. Um, detention basins are done all the time and uh, in fact, you put them in the low spot. So, we have two two basins where they have to go. I can't put them on the high spot because I have to get water to go into them. So, those are the two locations that they have to go into. In fact, um, the basin in their subdivision is above where we're putting homes uh, because that's in the low spot in in their development as well. So, that's where they have to go. Um, we will we will present a we have a landscape plan. We want to do mitigation on that. The thing about the trees with the u with the 10% of the site, that's actually a higher number than there are trees on the site. So, there's no way I can do this without a a waiver because there's less trees than what the requirement is. I'd have to preserve every tree and I still wouldn't meet the requirement. So, uh we plan on doing that. the the we have to do a swip plan which AR Arie was talking about and that is part of the construction documents along with a land disturbance permit and there there'll be maintenance agreements and maybe there should be some training I don't know but there there are maintenance agreements that are in place when the development is done as part of the final plat uh and part of that's in the indentures that requires the the maintenance of the basin. So um and I guess that's all I have unless you have questions or something I missed.

I actually have a question. Sure. This is This is thinking outside the box and probably not even possible, but it sounded like they were saying that their detention basin that's on the norththeast corner and it's not up there, but the one on the other side of the the street that's not Oh, that's not in our Yeah, that's not Yeah, that that apparently gets overwhelmed and flooded and is there any way that you guys could come to some sort of an agreement with them to make that larger to be able to handle more water? Yeah, I'm not going to make that agreement. I don't mind here right now. yet. Obviously, not right here and right now, but I'm saying like is that something that could potentially be discussed?

I I can look at that basement that that basin and and look at the plans and see how it was designed. Um, and I can go over that with the county and and maybe uh it's not even on your land. It's it's on someone else's land, so it have to be agreed to with them. But, yeah, that would be honestly the county or their or their communities to requirement to to build at the plan, not not ours. But I can I'd be happy to look at it because it sounded like the concern was that by building more homes, you're going to have more storm water runoff and that that would then overwhelm.

Let me say that too. I I've heard numerous times people said that the water is going to be three times greater. That that that's not how it works. If you pave the entire site, pave the entire site, it would double the amount of water because uh the existing is is a 1.8 8 factor which which is the amount of water at least and after you you pave it it doubles it. If you pave the entire site this we're the exist we're increasing it by five cubic feet per second half going one way and half going the other. So it's actually a pretty minimal increase in the scheme of project. So uh it's not doubled it's not it's not anywhere near that factor. So

other questions for the applicant. Uh I have is uh I guess maybe for Jeff here is is there going to be an HOA with this development?

Yes, there would be an HOA put in place. Um, and as far as some of the comments related to making sure those ma basins are maintained and things of that nature, you know, we have to do a maintenance and operation manual with any basin that we have. And that gets turned over to the HOA and kind of talks about how to maintain that, what are the things that they're going to have to either do themselves or contract out um to take care of those things in the future. um whether it be mow or maintain any plants in there. Um keep the for bays or anything like that clean. Um collect trash, you know, on a consistent basis, things of that nature. So,

and in your uh covenants, when will the uh property be when does the uh homeowners have the majority vote in the HOA? Um I know each county and city is different. Um I believe it's put in 90%. Yeah, they they would have twothirds of the vote. I believe I do not know off top of my It's typically driven by the city's city or county ordinance um on what percentage that is or the minimum maximum percentage on when it turns over. Okay. certain amount that a certain percentage, one out of the three, let's call it, would be a homeowner.

Yeah. Um and then two of the three at a certain percentage and then at 100% occupancy, it would be three of three. Yeah. But until that point, Mckelby is until that whatever point that two of three become homeowners, Mckelby would be um have majority stake in that. Correct. And be responsible. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, we would be we would be making sure that the HOA and and the maintenance of those things are moving along like they should.

So, what happens if that detention basin that's over the top of their homes, if it breaches or floods or maybe that's an engineer question, that seems to be a concern. Is that is that a likelihood? Is that a possibility? What who's responsible if that happens? So, I mean, come back. Yeah. So Dave Dave Vols and Vols Engineering would be the design engineer for the property. Um

yeah, again we we designed them for a 100redyear storm event, 100red-year storm event. Um and after a 100 years, it would it would it would flow out then, but it's designed for 100-year storm event, which is a which is a 7 in rain in 24 hours. 7 and 12 inch rain. So the the storm he was describing which was a 9 in that's probably why there was a problem because there because uh that that's more than what their system would have been designed for. Okay, that's a big rain. I mean that's a that's a that's rare 300 year rain. So that's a that's a big rain. I mean but we designed them for 100year storm event and with with two foot of freeboard on top of that. So even beyond that you you still have two more feet of of storage. So you don't think this is going to be an issue?

We do this all the time. This is the way detention is done and this county has as stringent rules as anybody. So, uh, that's what I'd say. I also wanted to point out standard practice. It it sounded like the owner of Mckelby Homes had said that he had never done one like this before, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have never done one like this before. Like this all the time. Just because his particular company hadn't doesn't mean that the people he's hiring to do it hasn't done it. Yeah. I wasn't there when the comment was made, but but uh I work a lot of projects for Miguel and we do it for them all the time. Oh, okay. And and it's that way

you you your basin goes you you can't you don't get to pick where your basin goes. It goes in the low spot and and that's the next piece of property down if there's a community down there that you still have to put the basin there. So, um it happens all the time. It it happens on our the basin there's a basin above our property on their site. So, so right now, so it sounds like what you're saying is to wrap it all up, you believe that by building the subdivision and by building the storm water systems that you're creating that you are going to maybe that you might even improve their storm water and that you won't make it worse. That that's your belief. Correct. Yes. Okay, that's correct.

This the basin that's uh here above uh what's going to be above your home at the culdeac uh where is that water going? So, if you go back to the site plan there, um, so there there's a basin here. That water actually comes down here and then this direction. Is it piped? It it is. Okay. And then the basin I'm talking about is this one. So, that's above this home. Okay. Um, and above this home in this home. So, that's that's but that's where they had to put their basin. That's that's and they're not allowed to to break that waterershed. They couldn't they couldn't put it over here or take that water in another direction. And that's why you're piping it out of there,

right? That's that's the best system. That's the best system. If we can tie into an existing pipe, that's what that's what they want. They they want that tied in there because then there's the water sheet flowing off the site. So that that's a better solution. So for for storm water,

the they that you're referring to, you're talking about uh governmental authorities, correct? I'm I'm saying that if if we're if we tie into an enclosed system, I I pointed that out a couple times when I'm saying enclosed system. I'm maybe I need to explain that, but I'm tying into a pipe. So So just like this basin goes is is piped through here. Instead of discharging onto somebody's backyard and letting the water flow in into an inlet, I'm tying into a pipe. So So the water leaving our basin is never come never sees the light of day. you know, it it goes beyond their their project or their homes. So, that that's a better system. If I live downstream, I would like that.

Any other questions for the applicant? Yeah, I have. Um, is there any plans for green space for the three houses that back up to the road? Oh. Oh, you know what? I didn't mention that. One thing that you ever been to a McKelie development, they landscape everywhere. They they buffer because that's how they sell these houses. So there there's going to be Well, this is this doesn't affect your houses. It affects their houses. Yeah. Yeah. So So they're going to landscape along here. They're actually going to landscape along here. Now, when you say landscape, I mean, is it uh like a type two? Yeah. Yeah. A sight barrier. The west side of the culde-sac is we're talking about in the backyard of these three homes that their backyard right there

to block that culde-sac. Monson's home, which you know the the culde-sac is 25 foot from his backyard. Sure. Yeah. So, so we are gonna we're gonna landscape that that along there. Um maybe I we can meet with them and see exactly what they want there. What's the best way to do it? Something uh shielding the cars, right? Okay. Robert, point out that it's not all common. that one of the homes there has that as their property. So, they'll be able to pull off whatever they put in that area. So,

if I can answer that question, I mean, one of the things that we do um in cases like this where someone would have a concern um about the future maintenance of that landscaping or it staying in place long term is we put a landscape easement in place even on an owner's lot um so that the HOA can replace those cuz you know things happen in life, right? Um, someone could not have the means to replace a tree that dies themselves if we put a buffer on that uh on that property. So access it gives them So you

Yeah. So the so the the landscape easements are written in a way that we can maintain, replace, and access that to do so throughout throughout the life of the neighborhood. Yeah. So an easy what is the requirement for Robert? What would be the requirement for maintaining for maintaining what? I'm sorry a landscape barrier for those houses that back up to the road. I Yeah, I see their concern and they have a valid concern about having, you know, a road in right up to their backyard,

right? The um the landscape maintenance that's enforced by the county would be um landscaping that's within common ground or along natural water courses. The landscape maintenance that would be enforced by a homeowner association would include uh landscaping within an easement uh such as this. So that would be up to a homeowner association to uh ensure that it remains in place. county county can't. Okay. Yeah. So, so even though landscaping or tree preservation's required, yeah,

there's no enforcement. Well, the tree preservation requirements are to preserve the trees during the development process and then after the development process, those trees that are within common ground are pres uh protected and preserved. Uh but really the tree preservation requirements are to ensure that the developer doesn't come in and then just grade and and remove those trees that they remain uh even after the development process. Okay, any other questions?

I just wanted to explain briefly what an easement does in case anyone was con confused. So, what an easement does is if you're on that person's personal property, the easement gives permission to the HOA to come in and without that person's permission, because they've already got that permission recorded in an easement, they can come in and they can take care of those trees. They can plant more trees. They can do whatever they want there. And the homeowner cannot stop them because they have a written easement which is written permission for the HOA to come into there and and take care of that landscaping. Okay. Correct. Yeah.

Any other questions, comments, questions for staff? Hearing none. Thank you, sir. Okay. Uh at this time the chair will entertain a motion to approve application P26-01 which is a preliminary preliminary plat uh for the location uh 5304 Guttermouth Road. Uh is there a motion? So moved. Motion by Miss Bar. Is there a second? Second.

That was M. You Mr. Neem Miller. Yes. Okay. Motion has been made and seconded to approve application P26-01. Uh Mr. Quinn, how do you vote? Yes. Uh Mr. Shell? Yes. Uh Mr. Neem Miller? Yes. Uh Mr. Nolan? Yes. Miss Omera? Yes. Uh Miss Bar? Yes. Miss Kersner? Yes.

And I vote yes. Now, the prior application and this application were only only recommendations to the county council. Okay. Their next meeting is Monday, October the 13. No, that would be it's in March. I said Monday. Monday, April the 13th. Back in this room. Okay. Uh, and that's when a final decision will be be made on both of these applications. Not not the plat. Oh, no. The plat just I'm sorry. The plat's final. The plat's the plat's approved.

This is just a preliminary platoning that the council has to approve. Yeah. Yeah. So, the uh reasonzoning the council we'll hear that uh Monday, April 13th uh back in this in this room. Council starts at what time? 7. At at 7. The preliminary plat, this is just the preliminary plat. There other things that have to be done. Correct.

Uh will be on a at a later later hearing before the planning and zoning commission. So, okay. Uh now, let's see here. Agenda. Um where is my agenda? Okay, we have no tabled items. The next item on the agenda is approval of the February 18th, 2026 planning and zoning uh meeting minutes. Are there any additions, deletions, or corrections to those minutes? Motion to approve. Uh hearing none. Uh there's been a motion to approve. Is there a second? Second. Uh second. Uh all in favor sign I. I. I.

Okay. Those February minutes are approved. Um uh division updates. Robert Wanted to welcome Mr. Nolan for his first meeting. And you may or may not know, but Mr. Nolan previously served on the Wville City Planning Zoning Commission for how long was it? Uh, just shy of a decade.

Just shy of a decade. Okay. So, Mr. Nolan's got a lot of experience in this area and I appreciate all of our newest members because we're getting much much closer to having the full full slate of planning commissioners. I appreciate that. The last thing I'll mention is that we're at an exciting moment uh in the grants world uh for planning and zoning division and that is we're we're just about to close on our first buyout from our uh local voluntary buyout project funded by the $15.8 million grant through HUD. And currently we're looking at purchasing at 26 homes. That's our first group of homes uh for purchase and demolition, creating open space and permanent open space. Uh and these are all homes that were affected by the 2019 flood. And we're looking at an additional 25 or so homes as well uh as part of this process. So

tell us where those are. Um, generally speaking, almost all of them are located in the Mississippi River, uh, flood plane. Just generally speaking, most of them are close to the river in the in many of them in the flood way and they're one homes that have uh been repetitively flooded. A lot of them have. I would stress that this is a voluntary program. That's uh that's that's key for this. The other thing I would mention any for anyone listening tonight's meeting, the uh community development department is proposing to submit a letter of interest to the state emergency management agency uh providing a list of homes that we would be interested in uh if any grant money comes available. So, we're going to be sending out letters to homeowners, owners of homes that are in floodway or homes that have been repetitively have repetitive flood insurance claims and asking if they would be interested in participating. It doesn't obligate anyone to do anything. But the uh providing this uh letter of interest or notice of interest to the state emergency management agency is the first step for the possibility of when uh monies come available that we can then make an offer to homeowners if they're interested. The reason I mention that is because we periodically have people contacting St. Charles County who really feel like that they're uh stuck and they own a flood damaged home and they really want to sell their home to get out from underneath that. They don't really have any options and they're really looking for the opportunity for a buyout and we really have to um these these grant opportunities. It's real hit and miss.

That letter of interest is our first step. So, um, anyway, I just wanted to let the public know that we will be sending letters to, uh, select groups of of homeowners. Where we at with the master plan and UDO revision?

Okay. a master plan. We're uh finalizing a a draft that we believe can be uh submitted to the master plan steering committee uh pretty quickly here and that's our next step. So the master plan steering committee will review and make a recommendation ultimately to the county council and then um that's essentially the process. The unified development ordinance would come revisions would come after the master plan and would be ideally based on the recommendations of the master plan. So updating our development regulations and some of them are admittedly really really out of date. when you have a land use category for a telegraph office and a blacksmith shop and some other things like that when we really hopefully we like to capture the jobs of you know today in the future as opposed to ones 100 years ago. I mean our zoning doesn't even allow explicitly prohibits food trucks uh doesn't even allow farmers markets. I mean, there's all sorts of things that we would really like to see incorporated with the the uh update of our zoning regulations.

Any other questions, comments? See? None. Motion to adjurnn. So moved. Most been made. Second. All in favor say I. I.