Library Board - Regular Meeting

Alright. I'd like to call the library board meeting to order. Roll call, please.

Bowie? Coleman? Here.

Johnson?

Kim? Here. Baker? Here. Yang? Here. Chair Jones? Here.

Five present, two absent, I believe two being excused. The first item on the agenda is approval of minutes, minutes 26 dash 12. Library board agenda for 03/04/2026.

Great. This is an approval of the library minutes from from March. I'll take a motion from council member Coleman to approve. Is there any discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor say aye. Aye. All those opposed?

Five in favor? Zero opposed? The minutes have been adopted. The second item on the agenda is up for discussion, Resolution 20 six-five 13, authorizing an extension to the memorandum of understanding between the Saint Paul Public Library and the Friends of the Saint Paul Public Library.

Great. So this item is pretty straightforward. This is an extension to for our relationship with the friends of the library who we think about this year. Really are very appreciative of. I'll take a motion from council member Kim to approve this item. Is there any discussion? All those in favor say aye. Aye. Those opposed?

Seven in favor, zero opposed. Motion has been approved. The next item on the agenda is staff report, staff report 26 dash 52, library needs assessment.

Wonderful. So this is the main presentation for today, so I'll turn it over to Director Hartman for our library needs assessment.

Good afternoon Chair Giles, Library Board. Thanks for the opportunity to present to you. So, every year, in city statute is the requirement for the library director to present their needs assessment for the upcoming year to the library board. So, that's what I'm here to do today. How we've traditionally handled this is kind of a state of the library.

So, I'll share some 2025 statistics and outputs. We'll talk a little bit about our successes and challenges this year in 2026. And then, I'll give you a little bit of a preview about where some of our challenges lie for 2027, way ahead of that budget process getting started. So, I Some of these data points you've heard from me in other places, but I think it's really important and helpful to see them all in one slide. We have about 23,000 visitors a week to the library.

In 2025, it was it was down about 6%. It was a long time ago, but you may recall the digital security incident from July and September. And so, that's what we believe. If you look at our numbers, they're sort of on on pace to continue. And then, we saw fewer visitors in the six weeks that we did not have the internet or public printing.

So, we are glad that we're through that and everything is back to normal on the other side. But that was a big big hit for our public facing services in the library and first half as well. We circulate about 55,000 materials every week. And, despite the digital security incident, that was only down just a little over 1% last year. So, our circulation numbers continue to go up.

Our electronic circulation, our e books, goes up faster than our physical circ. But, our physical circulation still makes up over 60% of our total circulation. So, as you know, as we've discussed before in this space, it's more expensive for us to buy e books, but it's also an increasing demand. We know that lots of folks are seeking e resources for accessibility, convenience, and lots of other reasons as well. I wanna make sure that as we think about library and what we know it to be, this this group understands.

But not everybody always does that the meeting rooms in our libraries are one of the most valuable services that we offer to the library. So we continue to see that go up in the years post pandemic, and why you see us continuing to invest in other ways of making study rooms and meeting rooms available as we renovate our libraries. Our programs and the attendance in our programs did go down in 2024. Some of that is related to staffing levels in the library. Other is related to focusing our attention on not as many Not so much like more programs, but focused or more intentional programs of the ones that we have.

Additionally, we had over 3,000 computer sessions and 1,800 WiFi sessions per week. Our WiFi sessions were down slightly. We believe that's due to the digital security incident. But, in general, we're seeing WiFi usage increase. And, we're seeing computer use stay stable or go down a little bit. So we saw that go down significantly in 2025 due to computers not being available.

And, director Herman, do you think that you know, I know this is 2025 comparing 2024, and in this past year and this upcoming year, you know, we've had the the Rondo Library transition to Hallie Q Brown, but it seems like you've seen similar, activity at Hallie Q Brown, but we're also gonna be opening the Hammond Midway Library. So do anticipate seeing these outputs increasing, even though it sounded like we're looking at some of the numbers were originally down, or what do you think might happen?

Yeah, Chargos, thanks for that question. So our usage at Hallie Q. Brown is good, but it's also less than it was at the Rondeau Community Library, and we can expect that given its location and given the size of the space. What's higher at our Hallie Q. Brown location is program attendance, which is really, really interesting.

So we have more programs and more people attending those programs than we did at our permanent location. We will definitely see an increase in visitors and circulation when we reopen Hamlin. You can generally expect that when you build a new library or you have a significant renovation, the standard across the country is about a 30% increase in traffic and circulation. My guess would be that it be a little higher than that for Hamlin. But so I would expect that visitors is gonna keep going up, but I think the decrease in visitors for Rondo and the increase in Hamlin might balance each other out.

And circulation continues to go up a little bit each year.

And we also have Hayden Heights as well too.

And Hayden Heights closed. Yeah. Now generally, Hamlin, we would expect more visitors and more circulation at our Hamlin library than our Hayden. Mhmm. But we're you know, we'll have only a few months probably of Hamlin being open. That's a great question.

Okay. Excuse me. Councilman Cohen.

Thanks, chair. Thanks, director. That makes total sense to me that when we had no Internet, people did not come to the library as frequently. Did we see that that rebounded fairly quickly after the digital security incident was resolving? Or did that impact our numbers for was there a long tail

from that? Chair Jones Council member, people were very happy with the computers and the printers turned back on. So yeah, we would we saw very word spread very quickly that those services were again available and it came back pretty pretty nicely. Council President Baker. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Director, curious, you mentioned the 48 programs per week that the attendance being down 25% over 2024, and you talked about that as a staffing issue. So it sounded like it was that we were offering fewer programs not necessarily Do that attendance per program was we also track attendance at the programs we do offer and over time to see what's of interest to people and to determine programs for the future?

Yeah, Chair Jones, council member, thank you for that question. That's correct. So we have an internal anytime we offer a program, we have a it's on our website, and then we have a backdoor where we put in the attendance. And so staff who are the program leads are responsible for adding that each time. We also have evaluations for a lot of our programs that we give to participants who are participating.

If you were at Read Brave, you would have seen some of those, to help us identify did we meet our goals, right? So if we had identified an outcome in advance for our goal. And then branch managers and branch teams are expected to do that too, right? To look at everything that we've offered, and make changes to either I don't want to say have more people at it because sometimes a program is only designed for five people. So then if you have five people you've met your goal. But if you have a capacity of you were hoping for 30 and you only got two, then we're gonna need to like keep tweaking it or try something new in order to make the best use of all of our time. Mhmm.

And as a follow-up, I'm sure, do you have that data as to what was happening with program attendance for the programs that were being offered in 2025 in terms of compared to 2024?

Oh, chair Jones council member, that's a really good question. Yeah. Probably. And I can probably get it to you. Yeah. Thanks.

We can keep going. Okay.

So 2025, I know we've talked to you already a few times this year, but I'm gonna take this opportunity to highlight some wins from 2025 and yet this year, since we are already in April. We've had two years of standing room only at our read brave talk brave event last year at our Rondo Library, and this year at our Arlington Library with a 150 people or more in attendance. And additionally, the part that's not as public, but just as important is this year, the over 1,000 students in Saint Paul that our author Robizona Robizona? Romina Garber. That's like a mess up.

Brought her book Lobizona to students as well. So really really proud of that. Our team worked really hard on that. Last year we made transforming libraries improvements to the meeting rooms at Miriam And Rice Street. As everyone knows, we're opening Hamlin Midway Library later this year.

And, to just close our Hayden Heights Library last week for temporarily till we are reopening in 2027. And then, we'll have our Rondeau Library open by the end of this year. Our library safety work that I've presented a number of times and certainly will do so again. I couldn't be more proud of the work of our library safety team and the rest of the library staff who have embraced them. Who have learned new things, who have worked together with them as colleagues, and our safety manager Alex Corey.

But our incidents were down in 2025 over 40% from 2024. And that's due to the hard work of that team and the staff that surrounds them as well as all the folks that are leading this work. As I think about all the cool things I've had an opportunity to do in my library career, this is one of the ones that I'm the most proud of. Wanna mention our You know, I've had two special edition library cards during my tenure. Last year, we launched a commemorative card to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of Southeast Asian immigration to Minnesota.

And, one of the reasons we do that, it's big. We want people to have new library cards and it's a great opportunity to work with a local artist. But, we also want to increase the number of people that have and use a library card. So in 2025, we saw a 24% increase in the number of St. Paul residents who have and use a library card, and that's something we'll be continuing to increase.

I think that's a metric that is important to us. We're gonna continue to support our libraries, and also we want folks to opt in to use them. So, we'll continue to More to come later this year about what our next special edition library card might be. So, yeah, you can wait for that with excitement. But I'm not saying anything more.

I'm also really proud of a lot of the internal work that we've done. That we don't get as much of an opportunity to be on the paper for, to even present to this group. And one of those is that we started our internal library labor management committee last week Last year. That's monthly meetings with one to two members of each of the five bargaining units that's in the library. I'm proud of how that team is working together. We certainly don't always agree, but we bring questions and we bring requests to each other and we work through them together. Much more work to go there. Talk about staffing a lot. We talk about scheduling. We talk about safety, staff well-being, and other topics that are brought to the table.

Council president Baker has

a question.

Thanks, madam chair. I really appreciate hearing about these selected wins and appreciate that you're including early twenty twenty six too because it feels very up to the minute. I'm wondering if in the future this is just a formatting thing rather than a content thing, but if we could see sort of maybe charts showing some of these changes over time for the metrics. So for example, I was the 24% increase in number of residents who haven't used a library card seems really significant and it immediately made me wonder what have been the increases in past years and what are the actual numbers that we're talking about so that we can better understand when there's truly an outlier year and maybe dig into that a little bit more as a body. So if you're able in the future to maybe provide a little bit more of that kind of chart time horizon that would be really helpful.

Chair Jones, councilmember, thank you for that. This is a new metric. 2025 is the first time that we've gathered that. But I hear your comment. I think the other thing for us to keep working through as a group is I do bring a lot of that data to my budget presentation in September. So I would be looking for direction from this group. Do you want it in both places or one or the other? And it it's easy to to do both if that's helpful.

Sure. Councilmember Johnson. Thank you. Chair Jones, I was gonna also let you finish, but I I don't wanna lose that thought on the previous slide. I think it just would be helpful as well, like, during budget season. I don't, you know, I don't mind if or have a preference if it has to be, the outputs or the budget cycle piece. But it's just helpful to know as well by ward the numbers and just what the numbers look like. So the overview was overall, but I think it would be helpful to know, like, the library specifically just in case we are seeing a difference depending on or like an outlier situation to the numbers because of the transforming libraries projects that are happening in those areas or because of a isolated incident that's relative to just one library. It just might be easier to see.

Will

do. Yeah. Alright. Okay.

Also there were challenges. I mentioned the digital security incident. I think it's important to keep talking about that. We have recovered from that, but the library sits in a very unique position in the city about how public facing our technology is. So our no Internet, no WiFi, no printing, no telephones at most location. Our staff didn't have access to email. Our and our staff were impacted too. And and I know you heard about some of that during that manual circulation. We weren't doing any check ins or on inability to fulfill holds or internet or WiFi for staff. So, I'm really proud of how my team came together and the creativity that they brought.

I think I'm just quite sure I've told you before that we started sending our All Stuff emails by fax because that was the only thing that was working and it was so popular. We're gonna have to do it again even with the computers working. So I am so proud of all of our team and I'm so proud of my colleagues in the city about how we came together to work through each of those steps and and the creativity that my team had to bring and the partnership with OTC. And most of that work fell on our library technology manager, Lisa Motsky, and our marketing and communications staff in kinda coordinating what that communication would be out to the out to the public, but to our staff as well.

I just also wanna point out, I think maybe the libraries are one of the only places you can still send

a fax.

So I'm glad that I mean, I think people still value that very much, but it seemed like it was very critical in some of these situations. So I'm glad that we still have that Chip. Service and tool at library.

Sure, Jill. Thanks for recognizing that. And people do laugh. And also, like, if you think about it though, like, so much is online that when you actually have something printed out and you and we had our managers read it to staff at the huddle. That's a totally different experience.

Mhmm.

Right? So one of my colleagues is at the Public Library Association conference today, which is meeting in Minneapolis. And she just texted me to say that she was at a presentation by the Calgary Public Library, Calgary, Canada. And they do really great work. It's one of those like, oh, Calgary. Why are they always Like they're just They're well resourced. They do really great work. But she said she was going to our presentation, and one of their learnings was to do more internal communication by analog means instead of digital. And so I was like, we also learned that. So we'll keep experimenting with that as our capacity permits.

I don't have to tell you about the implication the the impact for my team and our patrons and our whole community on Operation Metro Surge. We saw but specifically, we saw fewer library fewer residents using library spaces in January and February than we did in 2024. We are seeing those pick back up now in March, but there's a lot there's a lot of impacts for our whole community. And as a leader of a workforce, I can see it now too, like how holding that tension and gripping for January and February is now coming out in a variety of ways in the workplace. Our staffing remains a challenge.

The city's the city had a hiring freeze in quarter three and quarter four of last year and 2026. That's clearing, but we're catching up on our staffing. So you will always hear that from me that it's a balancing act that I think we do pretty well. We certainly don't do perfectly, but within the resources that we have and the size of our workforce, we're prioritizing on making sure that we're meeting minimum staffing staffing guidance and opening the doors to our public. And then, it's spring.

And so, when it's spring, that can bring more challenges to our public safety to public safety in our library. We're handling those well. But I I have the fortune to be in this role for a number of years now, and so I know that it's spring. And it will not be like this forever, but there's a couple hotspots in the city that we're working that we're working closely with SPPD, ONS, Metro Transit. When we see kind of a change in the number of incidents or the particular behaviors at a location, we have the tools at our disposal to then deploy a safety specialist in a different way and to follow-up with our partners so that they can help us problem solve.

Priorities this year, again I've mentioned most of them. Our Hamlet Midway Library will reopen. I was just through it last week. It's gonna be great. Hayden Heights Library is under construction. This one feels really good as well. Our Rondo Community Library is making good progress. We'll reopen by the end of the year. We will continue to manage staffing within our reduced budget environment. This year in our budget, as you recall, have a reduced substitute staffing budget and an increased vacancy rate.

So, we have few fewer tools to use to cover staffing. But so far, we're doing okay. But that's something that I'm very mindful of and watching closely. Our library safety strategy that I've talked about many times here, is now moving into our restorative practices phase. So, the parks and the libraries have a grant and to do this for the public and for staff as well.

So we're really excited. This is the kind of last phase to implement within our library safety strategy and one we're really looking forward to learning more about and and using with our community members. Last year, we had a team put together do a lot of internal work with our staff to identify how we can better support staff well-being at work. They did a lot I've had a lot of conversations and focus groups and surveys And brought forward towards the end of the year, some recommendations to myself and the rest of my team. And now, we're moving forward into that implementation.

Really proud of this work. Staff well-being is something, as you know, very important to all departments in the city, especially public facing ones. So, I'm really proud of our staff coming together to put forward some recommendations. I'm proud of how we're gonna keep trying new things, right, based on that feedback from staff. We piloted an anti bias training for all of our staff last year and we'll move that into full implementation this year.

That was created by our by Carl Gessner, who's our coordinator for equity inclusion and anti racism. So, that wasn't a training that we were able to find anywhere that met our needs. So, we combined a whole bunch of different things and created it. So, that'll be a required training. We continue to make the safety infrastructure investments that you've added to the budget in the last few years.

Some of those have been somewhat delayed, given, for example, the vapor monitors require a pretty intensive partnership with the Office of Technology and Communications. So, it needed to take a pause for a couple of months last year. But now, we have a plan that we're moving forward with. And, as always, I could never stop my team from internal process improvements if I if I tried. And, I don't wanna try because there's there's always so much needed there, both in the library and the city as well.

So, we'll continue to focus on that work in 2026. And now, 2027 and beyond. So, as we think, as the budget process kicks off, gets underway, it's really important to me that you all understand that our library safety strategy was previous, was funded by ARPA funds. So, we as we come to the end of those funding, I have a challenge. I have a challenge to, that I need your help with.

To resource the continuation of those positions through a sustainable funding source, or a variety of sustainable funding sources. That lie As I just mentioned, our library safety strategy has been tremendously successful. And also, it was a pilot with ARPA funds. So, now that the pilot is completing, now the question is how do we sustain it? So, I wanna be really clear, and I've been clear with my staff too.

Our library safety specialists have made a tremendous difference in our library. And I don't feel like I'm in a position to be able to run our libraries without those positions in place. So, as you can see the amount here, that's about $650,000 annually. It's no small gap and I realize that. Public services staffing continues, it just continues to be more expensive to operate libraries in all the ways that we've talked about here and other ways too.

So, we're using our existing FTE to open Hamlin Midway, and we'll use our existing FTE to do the same with Hayden Heights. But we will, at minimum, need more staffing to open Riverview Library when we get to that point. Right? So, we did not have in our budget a request for additional FTE for Hamlin. You won't see one for Hayden. But, when all three of those projects are done, I will have a gap of staff.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Curious as to why that is. If you can say a little bit more about that. Same number of libraries, why do we need more staff? And then I know you're not saying this, but I just wanna make sure that you're not saying that Riverview Library last to get redone in this tranche would potentially not open due to a staffing concern when it's ready to open.

Chair Jost, council member. So, it continues to be more expensive to operate libraries, and there's a couple of ways that shows up in staffing. It shows up in the safety specialist, right? So, we're moving one of our safety specialists to Hamlin. That isn't a role that we had before.

It also continues to be It's very important to us that we honor our minimum staffing arrangements. And in the past, five or even six years ago, the library used to get away with some stuff. We used to be able to have two staff here, when actually the minimum really for safety reasons should be three or four. So some of that is through conversations with the union. We really wanna make sure that we're staffing a building appropriately, so that it can be safe, but also so that people can get the, have their questions answered as well.

And to your question about Riverview, no I am not saying that. I'm just saying that we are gonna continue to experience staffing crunches as we open up these other libraries. And you're absolutely right, we did not build gigantic libraries specifically because we know that we have to staff them with the staff we have. But the reality of all the other factors in public services over the last three or four years means we're gonna be really, really tight.

Councilmember Johnson.

Thank you for that transparency, and I think just the honesty surrounding what is necessary moving forward. I think one of the things that has been really I will just share every budget cycle when I see a cut to the library's budget. I'm like a little disappointed every time. And I think with this particular 2027 and beyond needs assessment, I hope to see that that is kind of incorporated in what is proposed to this body and also just like what ultimately is adopted. I will share that in looking at the $650,000 number and a lot of the resources that we have, it does appear that at times at the end of the year there is unutilized funds and things that we potentially could pull from.

And so, I hope that in your conversations just with not only with the administration, but even in the back end with our Office of Financial Services. There is some conversation about what we, you know, what the cost of really doing business is like as we prepare for the budget season. This seems like a really tangible number and something that could be, especially if needed, addressed for the safety of and the strategy and addressing the staffing needs. And so, know, I see this as an opportunity where you know just initial feedback. That number to me is not and when we have other opportunities in other places where we are moving resources and we are kind of planning ahead, it's a lot easier to place in what is proposed than to try and scramble forward on the back end.

And so I hope that there's just some continued planning ahead versus what we see. And I'll look to, you know, your leadership director and kind of what the conversations are gonna be like with staff on just what it should be like proactively. And that's more so just my brain, you know, basically doesn't think budget but always thinks budget until budget sees it. But looking into it, it's just like $650,000 accommodated at the beginning, maybe found in resources that were underutilized in 2026 or 2025 is always an easier conversation to have than how do we find it at the end of the year.

Thank you, Council Member Johnson.

Council Member

Kim. I'm sorry if

you said this, but what additional staffing at a minimum will you need?

Chair Jost, council member Kim, are you talking about like when we reopen Riverview?

Sorry. I'm looking at sorry. Was finding the bullet point. Yep.

For Riverview? Yeah. We don't know yet. So it'll be really important to open Hamlin Midway with the staff that we have allocated and see how that goes.

How many allocated staff did you transfer from Riverview to?

I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.

How many allocated staff are you moving from Riverview to Hamlin Midway?

We're not moving anybody from Riverview to Hamlin Midway. It's from Hayden Heights.

Oh, from Hayden Heights.

Sorry. Yeah. I don't have the number in front of me, but I can get

it cannot for see the slide. I'm blind. I'm just I'm like hearing so sorry. The crux of my question is like recognizing it's more expensive. We want staffing, right? Like is there a number that's kind of like bumbling around in there to be like if we're moving x amount of staff and then what it looks like to fully staff Riverview to the point that you want, is there like a minimum and maximum number you're sort of thinking about but more so for us to kind of hear what that cost is? Because I can kind of see the library safety strategy you're wanting sort of sustained funding at $6.50 annually, right, just to sustain those staff. What does that look like for them just like across like what is is that in terms of numbers of staff? Best guess. Won't hold you too much.

No. No. No. Council member, I I think yes. I understand. I mean, we're talking about, like, four people. Okay. Right? So just, like and and, again, not in this budget cycle, but that's that's kind of the number that we're talking about. We're talking about 20 or 15, like four.

Okay. That sounds good. I really appreciate that. And the other question that I had was not related. You talked about earlier around training anti bias training for staff. At one point, we also talked about potentially trauma training for management as well. So like if I mean like part of the reason why we have public safety staff and trying to embed them is because of some of the things that our frontline staff workers come into contact with. And so we do a lot of training for frontline staff to be trauma informed in the way that we're approaching and speaking and like in engaging. Can you speak a little bit about any additional staff then like maybe management has then to like receive and support a staff member that like has been traumatized at work?

Yeah, council member thanks for that question. I do also recall that we had that feedback that managers maybe weren't always doing that in a way that staff would like. So I just want to be clear that when I talk about frontline staff, I'm also talking about managers, Right? So managers and frontline staff, maybe like a library associate or an AFSC member, are all receiving the same training initially. And then our management team meets every month.

And so additionally providing other supports. What I would say about Travis trauma informed training is that we've baked that in to every single aspect of safety specialists, right? And that's continued support, not even just as it relates to safety, but continued support and training for our managers, right, about how to continue to work with their staff effectively. So I feel pretty good about what we're delivering. As you well know, not every staff member likes their manager, right?

And so that's part of why we have the monthly labor management committee, to try to get to the bottom of specifically, right? If you could help me understand where was this happening so that we can find so that we can provide that support to managers. But I I welcome for future conversations about where that may not be everything that we could be doing.

No. I really appreciate hearing like that. It is in baked into the training. It's not an additional one, but one that is considered across the board. So I appreciate hearing that.

So director Herman, also, I just wanna make sure I'm understanding because it says that we're gonna use existing FTE to reopen Hamlet Midway, we'll do the same with Hayden Heights. Does that mean that over the last, I guess, two years, so, like, since 2024, with the closure of Hamlin with Hamlin Midway being closed and some of these libraries opening and closing, that we've had the same number of staff That's correct. Okay.

Yep, so those staff were redeployed to other locations when Hamlin Midway was closed. We slightly expanded our Merriam Park Library hours because we were able to with the staff. And so we'll reduce back to our regular Merriam Park Library hours as some of those staff will go back or go for the first time to the Hamlin Midway Library. So our FTE has remained the same. But it's still a pinch. It's still hard.

Okay. Council President Nacre or Council Member Bowie.

Oh, thank you, Chair Giles, thank you so much, Director Hartman, for this presentation. I was just going to just offer some comments particularly and some thoughts particularly around the library safety staff. So I think it's such an essential part of our libraries and really our city when I think about just the impact that they make. They also come from our community when I had a chance to I believe it was the public safety town hall conversation we had at Rondo Library getting a chance to be introduced to each of them and hearing their story and many of them taking great pride with being from St. Paul, from the community and see this as an opportunity for them to give back.

I'm just really well not really curious but I guess I would give some like thought to the conversation around what sustainable funding looks like. Not solely just for like the library department but really like a cross departmental safety strategy. I would really like to hear from the Office of Neighborhood Safety around how they see our safety staff for the library integrated into the holistic picture around when we think about community safety employees. I'm aware that ONS they also have their safety staff. They've had many reiterations of safety strategists, whether it was community ambassadors or now.

I believe we have our own in house safety staff are contracting with some community violence intervention organizations like for example Boots on the Ground who I know was contracted specifically at around the library. So, when we're thinking about funding, I really would like to see, you know, hopefully you don't have to play a jigsaw puzzle game of trying to get funding from different departments, but what I would like to see particularly is that this isn't just solely on the shoulders of the library department right to sustain this the safety staff but we really see an integrated approach from our police, fire, and ONS, and our parks and rec including our fearless library frontline staff to come up with a funding source and a program so we can sustain those staff and you know wishful thinking, right? We go into the future and we might have figured out the fentanyl problem and we don't have some of those behaviors at our library like what are some other uses, you know, in terms of community safety that we can apply to our library spaces.

Thank you, Councilor Bravoie. Councilor President Acre.

Thanks Madam Chair. I really appreciate this conversation and wanted to agree with a couple of things colleagues have said. I appreciate Member Johnson's point that it's it is really helpful to have these conversations in advance of the budget and particular to see things built into the base when it comes to us. I know that's not fully within your control director, but all those who might be listening to us right now, it's helpful to see things in the base. And I would also add to that the circulation, keeping the purchasing power consistent with what it has been in previous years.

We passed that resolution as library board a long time ago, and we have consistently not seen that be in the base. So then we've had to scramble to find those dollars year over year. I would really like to see that resolution have a little bit more weight in the budget that ends up being proposed and hopefully proposed by the mayor. And then I do I am grateful for conversation about the basic cost of doing business as others have said. I have heard from frontline staff that we have not been they haven't felt fully staffed and so hearing that at times we have not been meeting minimum staffing or have been

No, we have. We always meet minimum staffing.

Okay.

But but minimum staffing is not all the desired staffing. So yeah, so there's a difference between a safe minimum and then a regular staffing level. Sorry to interrupt you.

I just want to be clear. That's important qualification because I thought I heard something different about that. Okay. So that we have not been meeting desired staffing. And I think it's important to understand what that desired staffing is sort of to the questions that were being asked across the system.

And then I also want to know sort of as Member Bui was just talking about the integration of also our library safety specialists in the staffing model because I think it's fair to say that FTEs haven't gone up over time. But if we have added a whole bunch of safety specialists, those are also those are people who are helping. They may not be considered traditional FTEs and assumedly they'd be doing some of the things that before were falling solely on our public services staffing members. So as we're asking for those folks to become long term funded by a city source and also potentially for staffing to increase, I just think it's important to see total numbers needed, how the library safety specialists are playing in, as well as maybe how other department staff, ONS staff play in. Mhmm.

Great. Any other questions before we

keep Can I respond? Yeah. Council President, thank you for that comment. And I would you will. It's budget season, so you will hear from my staff, if you already haven't about staffing. And I would really really welcome an opportunity to either be in those conversations or provide additional context. Staffing is a challenge. Unquestionably, it is a challenge for every library system in this country. And I believe we're doing the best we can with the resources that are available to us. And we we don't always agree on that.

Right? I entirely makes sense. But I hope that we can continue to have productive conversations. Because I think sometimes the limitations of our budget are not always understood by others. As of course they shouldn't be. That's my job. Right? So, just sort of flagging that we have the FTE that we have. To your point, Chair Dost, we have the same FTE that we had, right? And so when we move folks to open up Hamlin, we have the same FTE that we had. And also, it doesn't feel great. Right? If you had five staff and now you're gonna have four. Right? Because we need to open up the Hamlin Midway Library.

So there's a lot of nuance here that I know we all see in really different ways. So I welcome continuing to be in conversation with you individually or in any way that's appropriate.

Thank you, Director Hartman. Yeah, think I'd also be interested in understanding I understand with the same number of FTE we have and what is I mean, from your perspective you don't have to answer this now, but your perspective and staff's perspective, what is the desired number? Because if we're talking about maybe one or two more staff members would really help fill in this gap for this, you know, just any stress that our staff is feeling and make things easier for everyone, that feels very reasonable for me. But it's just helpful to know so when we are making decisions and budget chair Johnson and all of us are working through this, you know, if you get this many EFT, this is kind of the level of service you get. You get this many, these are the differences.

So we just have kind of different options to look at. And I also agree that the safety specialist is very critical in making sure those do have sustainable funding, whether it's through the library or through some other citywide safety, just like not even a program, but there's so many departments that provide safety that also have a lot more funding than the library. Are there opportunities where, you know, we could the department our library department could receive any kind of support or help in that funding because this is safety that impacts everyone, and everyone benefits from it. And so as much as we can talk about those things early on and understand them and hopefully get them into the mayor's proposed budget, that's going to be ideal for all of us in this process.

Sure, Josie. Thanks for saying that. I would also encourage you all to ask constituents what they think the additional staffing is that we'd need. I have continued to ask that and have not heard like a number. So I would really benefit from a number so that we can be in more productive conversation.

Absolutely. Or Councilmember Bowie and then Councilmember Johnson.

Thank you, Joyce. I really appreciate how you just wrapped wrapped all that up. And then I had another question. But it was related to what you're speaking to particularly around the safety specialist. I just have a quick question cause this came up I believe early on like two years ago when we were talking about just some of the labor union contracts and how that has impacts on driving or increasing some of the costs when it comes to like salaries right and we want to make sure like we're we have competitive salaries and we know our really strong pro labor council here in St.

Paul but I'm just curious regarding the safety specialists. Are they ASKME workers as well? Perfect. And then also part of the budget conversations, I mean I don't know where ASKME is at in terms of like contract negotiations, but it would be helpful as we're having the budget conversations we know like what are some of the changes and what are the budgetary implications because I think that kind of answers a lot of our questions when we talk about just the cost of doing business and wanting to make sure our wages are competitive in Paul.

Council member, thank you. The part I can answer is that yes, our library safety specialists are part of ASME technical. Those are full time benefited union represented roles. As to the status of me contract, defer you to human resources about where that is and what budget implications it has.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Johnson.

Yeah. I feel like a lot a couple of the questions, you know, in our statements too, it's it's it's also because we are talking to our constituents while talking to you. And I think just kind of coming into the place of just what we're sharing, I think there's a lot of alright. We we know that in talking to you about the budget conversations that it's not fully in your ability. But we also know that to millions the of viewers that are watching at home that continue to utilize our libraries and that we hear from and that we can see, right, the 23,000 visits that are received per week of residents all across the city.

Have in front of us and staff has stood in front of us with the library specialist numbers, and I still remember those from last year. Right? It's an investment that seems to be working, and I think that that's something to to be be shared. I I would hate to you know, in the staffing metrics and some of the pieces, especially around just numbers that we're trying to continue to maintain and that we are seeing some areas of increase, you know, and sustainability over the last few years, including post COVID time. Right?

There's been a lot of positive pieces and nuggets that have come from these consecutive presentations. And I just so I just wanna say that with full acknowledgment that, like, we are talking to you today, but I think that the clear intent at least from my end my comments are they go and extend beyond you of just my overall support for this vision. And because I, you know, and I think I'll be having the same conversations with the parks because what I personally right hate to see is my east side libraries and my east side rec centers receiving reductions in our staffing really and I'm sure that rings true for others. And so towards the end of the year right we do have that conversation about what our values are and in the last two years, this council has always echoed their values of supporting the efforts of the libraries. And so I just, you know, wanna continue to see that.

And I think when we're asking for, that number, it's not because we have a a least it's not because I have a specific number in mind. It's more so where I'm just like what does it look like to what it's look like for our departments and for our city staff to kind of reach for what it looks like to be not in an area of scarcity. Like what does it look like to fund us not in the space where we feel like we're, you know, really truly going year to year kind of by our bootstraps a little bit. And so I think that's just kind of what my intent is and where I am coming from when it comes to just our needs and our 2027 vision is you know how do we kind of we pull into the opportunity that we have I think with the not only a new administration but I think just a full council you know and also just a piece where I think you have council members who maybe access the libraries, get the libraries in a different way, and and also just continue to have this time where we're multiple years post COVID, but at a really pivotal point in our in our history for sure as a city for so many different things that I would hate for libraries to get lost in the conversation because they aren't asking for the stars.

And so that's just more so where I'm like, we're doing a lot of innovative things over the last few years as a body and I just don't want to lose that in the library discussion. So that's where my questions are coming from and more so of just like not necessarily expecting you to fix everything. But definitely from a lens of where I'm like what does it look like for our libraries to operate? Not out of scarcity but out of what is needed.

Thanks Councilor Member.

Councilor Ms. Fresnieweng.

Thank you Chair Jones. I want to say thank you Doctor. Hartman for your needs assessment presentation here. To me, it's been just very grounding. It's doing a lot of level setting for me in a sense where I'm doing a lot of reflections the things that I've heard you share over the many years here, which has been really consistent.

And I think that for me there's a lot of similarities between what you're sharing about the challenges in sustainable funding and what I'm hearing from other departments. But to me, what is really unique about our library department overall is that I think you all are in a very different position where when we are in a crisis like the pandemic, for example, and then also Operation Metro Surge, I mean we're gonna see less people coming to our libraries and it's gonna mean more cost savings for you all. You're gonna be spending less as a department. And you all have been very resilient and we're very lucky that we have the friends too. I don't know where we would be as a city really in terms of like the state of our libraries if we didn't have that partnership from them.

And so like what I'm thinking a lot about is that I believe in the next few years here or I hope this year with our be as a council, as a board, we're we're gonna have to make very different decisions when it comes to more so like the systemic like systemic the system, I would say that that we are currently like working in. I I think like right now I'm thinking a lot about the question that the friends they asked us maybe a few a couple of years back when it came to our 1% sales tax, how come library expenses aren't a part of it even though we know how important our libraries are to our communities? And and our library fund balance like every single year when we get to our budget season, we're constantly asking like how can we tap into that knowing that most of the savings a lot of savings for our city does come from our libraries. And and at the same time, overspending happens in a lot of other departments, but our libraries continue to get the shorter end of the stick. And so these are you know the top two things that are are coming to mind to me right now.

And I just really want to share that to to everybody here because like what I said earlier, I believe that we're gonna like if we want to see major change in this, it means that it's gonna require for us to make major changes in our decision making too. And I personally feel very ready for that. And I wanted to share that because we're going to really have to strategize as a board to be able to make that happen.

Thank you, council vice president Yang. Any other questions? I

think this

is this the last

This is the last slide. And I know we're we wanna end. And and you all have completed my slide for me. So thank you. And thank you truly, really for your partnership. I know what your support for libraries means. And I'm ready to partner with you in any way that I can. But funding gaps, council president Neeker mentioned library materials, library technology. Right? I just got a a quote back that our new hardware is increased by 20%.

Right? So that the library relies on that technology and the public facing technology in a way that no other city department does. So you know, I I entirely believe that that we can get to a place where we're not in a scarcity mindset. But I'm but I'm also aware of the budget challenges ahead of us, right? So I think it's important to have these conversations about what the libraries mean to us, about the locations, the hours, and the services, and the staffing.

Because it it won't continue to always feel sustainable. And so I think that's and thank you for understanding that. That that that's true for libraries across the country. It's true for libraries across the state. I was just at a meeting of regional library directors yesterday, and every single one said there's nothing more to cut except for staff. And I and I don't say that to scare anyone, but just to really be like, just really be real. Right? Like, if if our budget continues to go down, I don't have anything left, right, to offer up. And and council member Johnson, I I so appreciate your your perspective of, like, let's see more of that, like, in the base. And also, I'm limited by the tools that are at my disposal.

So I know you I know you know that. I don't of course, don't wanna cut library hours. Never wanna do that. And also, I don't have a lot of flex in my budget to put anything else on the table when a cut is being asked of me. Mhmm. Mhmm. Thanks for understanding that.

Mhmm. Absolutely.

That's that's it.

Alright. Well, I guess we'll end there for today. I I do wanna share a couple of things. Director Hartman mentioned the read brave event, which was I think the day after our last library board meeting. And and I was able to attend. There were some other council staff there too from lots of our ward offices. It was a fantastic event. There was a whole dinner, which I don't think they'd had before. We were just talking about the desserts earlier that were really fantastic. Such a great event and it was featured in People Magazine. I think now you were saying that it was featured in, it's going to be featured in Minnesota Women's Press, is that correct?

Yeah.

So just again, such a wonderful program that the library puts on every year and with the friends, and so I just wanted to highlight that. And then also I got to tour the Hamlin Midway Library last week, which is under construction. It looks absolutely incredible if you've walked into the old Hamlin Midway Library, it's really hard to recognize it, but very, excited about that project and being able to open that library this year. So if you haven't checked it out yet, I'm sure director Hartman would love to take you there.

Yeah. We'll have more announcements about Hamline Midway in the next few weeks. Yeah. We'll let you know.

Great. So with that, we are adjourned.