Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Our bylaws? Our bylaws were written four weeks. I haven't seen them. Jeannie's not here, and I wanted her to talk about Act 181, whether we were going to sign it or... Did she send it, Jeannie? We weren't bringing it to the select board, I didn't think. For sure, we were going to maybe decide today, because it was only four days ago.

I know, I know.

I sent her a reminder of the meeting. So nobody's here online. So Joel's not even coming tonight? Okay.

He's using Starlink.

No public comment. Allison is not coming. She sent an email saying she couldn't make it tonight. So I guess we're going right down to Bruce now.

Well, mine... Well, a couple of things. So what I wanted to talk about is with the new bylaws, we need to... What new bylaws? Okay, well, I've seen Joel.

I haven't seen nothing. I have.

Well, we haven't. We haven't. Okay, well, Joel had emailed me the draft that he's working on. Well, then nothing goes into effect until a draft is done. I totally get that. So my question to the board would be, when are we planning to have that done?

I have no idea. I've only asked Joel three times.

Okay, so it all rests right now with Joel's completion of it, and then it's going to be reviewed by you guys one more time? Absolutely. And then it's got to go to the select board.

And it has to go to the select board. So you're looking at the way things run here, six months to a year.

I seem to recall some desire to get it done this year. Yeah, I think so.

Okay. Because what I'd like to do in there specifically is when it addresses structures is to also have some wordage in there, including storage containers. So that it's clear.

Go over that. And the storage containers had to stay all metal. You couldn't add siding. You couldn't add a roof. Once you did that, it was a structure. And that's what we were told at the meeting.

I thought we were going to consider storage containers as structures anyway.

Yeah, I think that's what it says in the bylaws.

The only thing is that when the state went through for their reassessment, They wouldn't even look at them because I says, you're going to measure my storage containers? Says the state doesn't care about those. So then I mentioned it to Joel. He was surprised that they said that. So he called the assessors to find out if it was true. And he found out that the state doesn't include those things. So if that's the case, then if the state doesn't put a value on them, how can we? How can we tax them? I'm just asking these questions. On the containers or the structure? On the containers. Taxing them on the containers? No. The only fee that was on the containers was the original permit to make sure that they met all set ranks. That's right. And that's the only thing that was mentioned at the meeting.

Yep.

So I'm telling you that right now you don't have a

They have to meet the setbacks.

And they have to have a permit. A foot to stand on. They still need to be permitted. That's correct. They need to meet the setbacks. Correct. Okay.

That's what I'm... What are you not having a leg to stand on?

That's your... As far as taxing them, you can't. Who said we were going to tax them? I haven't mentioned taxing at all. When you say structure, structures get taxed.

We have to get this straightened out. Okay, so we need clear language on that. That's right. But as far as moving forward, what I've been, and I've already talked to several people about their containers, that they need to meet the setbacks and they need to have a permit.

Now, that 40-footer that's been sitting there for a year at the VF, does he have a permit for that?

Okay. I went around last Friday, drove around most of the town roads, and I identified 17 containers. And it's going to get worse. Okay. 17 containers. I think that I've identified that one that I know of currently has a permit. OK, and I've got about eight more to look at, you know, to go back and look at. So there might be another.

The ones that have a permit, as far as I'm concerned, are all set. Yeah. They don't have to reapply. No. Yeah. No, that's good.

That's what they're good to go.

They can leave it there for 10 years. OK, but but which I don't agree with. But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

They can leave it there for what? Leave it there forever. Oh, okay. Because you said 10 years. I was like, okay. So there's no restriction. They're basically permanent if they wanted to be. They can be removed, but any structure can be removed. So having them there, it is a...

The only thing we talked about at previous meetings was they had to meet the setbacks, pay the fee for the permit,

And that was it. Okay, so we need to make sure there's clear language in there. We're not calling them structures, but we're requiring they meet the setback.

Which is in our bylaws, as far as I know. Joel said, well, once they put log siding and a roof and a whole nine yards on this thing, now it's a structure. It's like buying a shed.

Well, I thought the last we talked about, they were going to consider them as structures. Never heard anymore.

Talk about it all you want unless it's written down and we see it written down and then we know how to apply the law. But even under the old the current bylaws have nothing about connexes.

But they need to meet setbacks and they need Just like a shed would.

Just like a 10 by 10 shed.

Well isn't it a structure?

I don't know. They don't say the word structure. A shed is 10 by 10, 100 square feet. You don't get taxed, but you need a permit to make sure you meet the setback.

But the first one is free. The first one, 10 by 10, is that you don't get charged for that 10 by 10. Correct. And then the second one, you have to get a permit again.

You have to make sure you meet all the setbacks.

Okay. I'm not seeing that in these current.

Well, show me the current bylaws. I don't have it.

Yeah. The current bylaws right now, I don't see where it says that they don't have to pay.

It's written down. You know what? Maybe that was something that we discussed.

So, again, that's probably in the new one. That would be the new one.

my my dumb question is that the 10 by 10 is fixed you can ask joel now no it's just that all sets on the ground well right but it doesn't have a foundation no i mean that's a fixed size 10 by 10 is 100 square feet you need a permit but that's as far as it goes okay that what do you that's in the bylaw that's in our old bylaws did you hear did you hear that joel

Dave Kuntz, Right any shed any storage shed larger than 10 by 10 needs a permit anything smaller doesn't need a permit, but it needs to meet setbacks.

Dave Kuntz, Okay, well, how, how do we verify that it meets setbacks if there's not a permit on file. They do get a permit.

They do get a permit as far as I know. Got to pay the $150 to put the shed in. No, if it's 10 by 10, right, it was only free the first one. If he added another 10 by 10, that's when you were going to have to pay.

My understanding was the first 10 by 10, you don't need a permit. You just don't need one. We just ignore it. But theoretically, it meets setbacks, but we were trusting people to just know the law. Okay.

Okay, so that needs to be addressed in the new bylaws then, I would say, because that introduces some area of confusion for people, right? I mean, I think it does, right? I don't think it's in there about even that second shed and stuff, right?

We do that also because that's what the listers also do. The listers don't tax anything 10 by 10.

I don't see any mention of anything 10 by 10 ever referred to in the current bylaws.

It's just been policy. Okay, so we need to be written down.

Yeah, I think it makes sense, doesn't it, to put it down in the new stuff, in the new bylaws, address that? Yep. That way, you know, there's no confusion about it. Sure. Yeah. And then I was talking about the storage containers, and there was a little bit of confusion about that. Yeah. So the storage containers are not taxed, is that correct, Joel?

I couldn't tell you whether they're taxed or not. I believe they are. I don't know why.

Remember, Joel, I told you that the state didn't even want to look at the containers because they don't consider them structures and that they don't even include them in their assessment. Remember that? And you called the assessors to find out if that was true. And the assessors told you that the state doesn't look at containers whatsoever.

So I just was in a webinar this morning on that, not on that, but that happened to come up. People turn these things into houses.

Well, when they do, then it's a structure.

It needs to be taxed. As far as I'm concerned, zoning, the definition of a zoning structure is in the bylaws. Look up the definition. If that doesn't meet it, I don't know what does. That's a structure. Anything else?

How does the town assess the tax on those if the state doesn't?

Okay. Structure is identified here as a combination of materials to form a construction for use, occupancy, or ornamentation, whether installed on, above, or below the surface of land or water.

It's it's definitely a structure, as are those carports. These are just tradition has been the zoning board of adjustment before there was a DRB made the call when those first little tents for cars and storage came up and they decided that they needed they ruled that it needed a permit. It's not in the bylaw. It's just a ruling of the DRB and it's case law, as might as well call that case law for the town. It's not codified. It's just that was the decision that we followed since then. And I've always required permits for these storage containers as long as they're bigger than 10 by 10.

So can we put that in the new bylaws? Yes. Because there's no mention of it. Not in the current ones, but maybe in the draft.

No, it's just been practice. I mean, there's probably 50 things that are practiced, but not necessarily codified in the law.

Well, it should be. So is it our goal to get these things kind of codified or whatever so that there's no... You will always have this stuff.

I think there's, you know, you cannot cover everything. You just can't. Okay.

It seems though that these storage containers are gaining in popularity.

I don't mind putting the storage containers in there just to specify. We already have, you know, it's already covered by a structure. But if you want to have people know particularly that these things in particular also need... Including, yes.

It's just a statement including storage containers, right?

You know, any structure including storage containers. So the one on Lakeshore Drive that's got three of them touching each other?

Yeah.

That's three permits, right? That's $350. No. Here's another practice.

We have never required separate permits for Somebody's building something that's just punitive. I mean, there's no real reason to do that. They're coming in. What we want to know for zoning is what they're doing and they're meeting setbacks. I just thought it was really kind of. picky to put somebody in three permits and they're expensive. What are we trying to do here? Yeah, I agree with that.

When I talked to the folks there on Friday, I said it would just require one permit.

Now, since it's remedial...

Well, so if they add a roof to it and they add log siding on the outside and make it look like a garage, do we need another permit to do that?

No. I don't think so. Yeah.

I think they can change. I just watched a video. I just watched a video of somebody putting three of those things together and then building a house out of them, cutting them, joining them. And why anybody would do that, I don't know. But after they did that, they put a frame around it so they could insulate them. Then it's a structure. I mean, it's not complicated. It's a structure. Yeah.

But I think would it require a change of use permit if they went from a storage container for storage to a dwelling? Yes. You know, actually live in it. So that would require a change of use permit. But as long as they're together, I actually, I mean, I don't know how the board feels, but I would actually feel like it's nice if they do dress it up so it doesn't look like three storage or whatever, a storage container sitting out in the middle of the field, you know, just sitting there. If they put a roof on it and put some siding or something on it and make it look, you know, nice, I think that's an actual bonus, right?

I mean, you know, I'm not saying that we have to require that. Then it'll be a structure.

Well, no, it's a structure anyway.

Okay, okay, you're right, you're right.

So...

All right. I mean, the only... No, it doesn't. I was thinking these sheds that are 10 by 10, but these are bigger than 10 by 10, right? These are all bigger than 10 by 10.

Typically, they are.

Yeah, I think the smaller ones... They're 10 by 20.

No, they're 8 by 20 or 8 by 40 or 8 by... Yeah, I think the width is pretty standard, 8 foot. Yeah.

Oh, can get 10 foot. Yeah.

But I think most of the ones I've seen are eight foot wide and then they can vary like 16, 20, 24, 40, 40 feet long.

20, 40, 20, 40.

There's no, there's no, there is a, there is a 10 by 10.

There is a 10 by 10.

Yes, there is. Well, like those pods or something. No, but it's not. It's a metal container with two doors. 10 by 10. 10 by 10. 8 by 10. It could be 8x10, but they're small. They're very small. They're a shipping container.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I haven't seen those yet, but yeah.

By definition, they're a few.

They're almost as much as the 20-footers.

I have a question.

I don't know whether the listers will value these things. It's a good question.

Can somebody hear me? On the containers, if you're saying three of them, you're going to say it's one permit, 150.

If you're saying that. That was my practice. I mean, you can call Alison Lowe and see what she thinks, but

Right. Okay. So then if you have two, there is some that have two, that's still going to be $150,000. But then you've got the guy that has one, and he's paying $150,000. So why don't we make the ones that have just one a lower permit cost than the guys that are getting two for the same and three for the same?

$150,000 for each one.

I agreed on that one to begin with.

So if somebody builds a small house, should require... Should they pay less money for a zoning permit than a large house?

Yeah, I think we're going to get in trouble that way.

Well, it just seems like those guys... Because really, what is the purpose of the fee is for... Okay, so now let me ask you a question.

To pay your salary.

I paid for one, and the first one I put in was part of the solar system, so I never got a permit for that one.

And I understand that's totally allowed.

But let's say I didn't have solar. So I put one over here in the field and I put one over there in the field. Do I pay $150 for each one? Because each one represents a separate production.

That's correct. So if you're doing it at separate times or you're doing it together? Separate times. Then I would say it's $150 each time. That ain't fair. But if you put them at the same time, it's one trip out.

Now we're talking the same thing. That's not fair. If I'm paying $150,000 and $150,000 and that guy slaps three all at once and he's paying $150,000 for all three, that's not fair.

It's one time I have to look into it. I don't care. It's three structures. It's three separate structures that you can put anywhere you want. What is the purpose of the fee? To make money? No. Or is it to cover the cost of doing the permit paperwork? Hey, look.

I'm just saying, I'm all done talking about it. You do what you want. The only thing is we don't have a copy yet of the new bylaws. So you can't push anything right now until that new thing has been looked at by the select board and approved. So we can talk about this all we want. I asked Joel six months ago. Three months ago, where our new policy is for the booklet, and you were supposed to get that ready, and we still haven't seen it. I don't know about you. What are you talking about?

The new booklet for the bylaws. The new booklet for the bylaws.

We've worked a year and a half on all the changes of the bylaws and the...

Building zone bylaws. Are you talking about the revisions that we're making?

Yeah.

We still don't have them, so you can't enforce anything until it's been approved. Oh, you don't have the final bylaw because we're waiting until the town plan is passed now. Yeah. Oh, so we're waiting for that?

Come on, give me a break. We should have got this six months ago because he can't do anything about it until that is approved by the town.

It hasn't changed. He can do what he's doing. No, he can't.

What do you mean?

No, he can't. What can't he do?

We haven't officially made the changes yet. We've only talked about it. There's no change.

What can't he do that you're worried about? What can't he do? Any of the changes that we've made in the bylaws. That's right. He can't, but we're not talking.

That's right. Okay. I rest my case.

He can follow the old bylaws.

He has to follow the old bylaws until the new ones have been approved. And we are.

I'm going to get my shipping container right away.

Get your shipping container right away because there's nothing in the bylaws that says $150.

No, no, no. You get a shipping container, you need a permit. It's a structure.

Yes. Don't get away from that.

It's a structure. Anyways, now we're going to wait.

I was only asking, Mark. So now we're going to wait another year, Joel, before we see the thing approved?

I was only asking that we specifically include the verbiage including shipping containers because there is some confusion or can be confusion about whether or not it's a structure. And we're clearly saying it's been a structure. We've acquired permits before.

And you better include... Better future-proof that by finding two other things that are like a shipping container so that you can say, shipping containers and this and this and so on.

Okay, shipping containers and other like structures.

Anything that's set on the ground bigger than 10 by 10 is a structure.

That's the bottom line. That's the bottom line. That covers everything. Anything that's set on the ground and doesn't have a license plate. So you've got- No, no, wait a minute.

License plate doesn't matter. Three shipping containers. As far as I'm concerned, that's three per- I should have touched on the ground.

my car is on the ground only that's the rule structures but it's the rules and they can they can move from point a to point b new bylaws so that's not so i think i don't know he also did that because i think you should borrow some of the language from hawaii because i think a permit is just is just that is just paying for the processing i don't know of the applications

It's three 8x20 structures. They are structures with doors, no windows. That's a structure. Putting three of them in, then it's three permits. It's $350 fees. Who has the ability to decide? I make a motion that we do that. You don't have that authority.

Where does the authority list? With the select board? The select board. The Planning Commission can make a recommendation, but Listen, you know, you're telling people that if they build a house and a garage and a storage shed, they need to get three permits. These are no different. They're structures just like anything else.

If they're attached, if the garage is attached to the house, that's the structure. If you've got a house and a garage 50 feet away, need a permit for the garage too.

At the same time you're building the house. Correct.

And you go anywhere else. That's what they ask for. That's not how we do it.

I think the permit is for the processing and the recording and all of the things that goes and passing it off to the listers to have them look at it. It's an administrative cost. It's not a... You know, so anyway, that's the way I look at it.

It's also people from building anything, you know, if they need to get a separate permit. I have always told people, look, if you're building something, I mean, we put it on the same permit. We're serving the public here, you know. So if you're building something, you're going to build it in the next two years, put it on this permit and then it'll cover that, too. I don't know why. It's never been anything in the bylaw that says you need to have a separate permit for every separate structure unless they're built at different times. If they're built at different times or you put travel trailers down at different times or you put containers down at different times, yeah, then they're going to need a separate permit.

I see it that way too.

Think of them as structures. They're all structures.

Because when push comes to shove, it's a processing thing. It's the fees there to process the paperwork for it.

It's going to look like crap if you let all these containers in here.

Well, then we need to pass a bylaw that says they're forbidden, but I don't know if we could do that either.

Can I ask you a question as well? Sure. person that did the three containers they didn't even get a permit to begin with they just didn't so they just did it so we were talking once before about if people did something without a permit that you would they would have a fine or something because i mean that's not that's not in the current bylaws but we talked about it we did billy and because i suggested doubling the permit cost well i remember that because i mean anybody just going to put up a bill without a permit

When you do get a permit, it's double. That's completely reasonable. A lot of places do that. That makes perfect sense.

A lot of places do do that. And that's my suggestion.

Yes, I remember talking about that. I think we should put that in the news.

It's a good idea. I see there's two different kinds of situations like that. the people who intentionally who know there's a permit needed and just don't do it. And then we catch them. And the people who just didn't know that they needed a permit and we catch them right away. You know, I was more interested in making people legal by, I would tell people, but if, you know, that was just my practice, that was, that doesn't have to be, you can change that. You can get them right away. I mean, if you do that, then these people are going to have to get a remedial permit. But once you set it in motion, you should be consistent, I think.

Yeah. So I don't see currently there's any punitive things. So what I'm operating on right now is identifying containers that don't have permits, asking them to get a permit, making sure it meets the setbacks. If it doesn't, then they're going to have to go beyond that to the review, the DRB to get permits. to get the permission where they can move it or they can move it yep exactly um but basically i'd like to get everybody permitted as as we can so that everything is legal sounds i think that's what we've been trying to do i think you have to have registration stickers that go on those containers i mean that would make your job so much easier to buy like oh

Doesn't it?

Yeah, maybe. I have talked to Bruce about Mr. Fortin, Mark. Believe me, Fortin is not off the radar. Yeah.

So, yeah, I've got several issues. It's only been two years, Joe. So I did send off a violation letter for the property on Derby Street. So that's followed up on. I put it as they have seven days. From receipt of it. We sent it return receipt requested mail. If we get that back, you know, if not, then we'll have to probably get a lawyer involved in it. Or somehow. So that's the next step. So if we don't hear from them and we didn't hear from them because they sent the warning letter back in January and we heard nothing. So we didn't get any response to the warning letter whatsoever. As far as I know, that's correct. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So, so the other mailbox. Yeah. So and we even I even contacted the Somerset clerk, town clerk to ask if they're if they had any other knowledge of any other address for that particular person. You know, and they said, no, that was the only address that they had for that person. So so they should be getting mail. There's somebody getting mail at that address. Do they have a signature on it or just. Well, we're waiting right now. We're we send it. Hang on. I sent it this, let's see, on May 14th. So it was sent on May 14th. This is a copy that went to the lawyer. And as a FYI. It's only four days. Yeah. So, yeah. So they have, they have, assuming they get it, they've got it today. They have seven from the day that the receipt comes back. They have seven days to. Well, I think we down the road, we should add some days to that. The time of the mail, it takes them over two weeks. Right, but it's worded here. It says... It's worded here that once they sign and receive it, then the seven days begin.

Registered mail, return, receive.

Yes.

Oh, okay.

And once we know the day that they received it, then we have seven days.

Just mailing it in the mail and that don't work.

Yeah, yeah. So that's done. I did follow up with... with the property down by Hudson Trading Post there with the landowner there about that delinquent property. There's some things going on there, but they know that it has to happen quickly and get taken care of. So that's going on. I had an idea. that um so now we have some properties that have a lot of debris let's just call it on the on the premises and i think uh you know a former um zoning administrator wanted to kind of clean that up what i would like to ask the select board for and see if you guys think this is a an idea i want to ask the select board to um to come up with and i'll help them develop it all but um a grant that people that live within our town, our residents, can apply for this grant that the select board will pay for, the town will pay for, and that basically covers the cost of cleaning up their property. So they would apply for it. The select board would then decide who's gonna receive this grant. And then that grant, I've got a much lower cost for a roll-off container. from the guy that used to take the trash from the town. And it's much more affordable, so it won't cost as much. And maybe we could allocate $1,000 to $1,500 for grants over a year and people can apply for them and they can be used to clean up their properties. and uh basically you know that that would be more of a carrot than a stick approach to to cleaning up properties uh but i don't know i like to know the so landing boards would be an open top container where you just dump stuff in correct it would yeah and it would still access doors yeah they have access doors through the structure the only thing i see in that is that grant is going to put

It's going to be attached to the taxpayer's dollars.

Correct. But I think everybody in the town benefits if we don't have really properties that give our town a bad appearance. So are they going to pay... They get it. It's a one time thing. They can only apply for it once, you know, or they can only receive it once. Yeah. We're giving them the container to use the container to use. Right.

They're going to pay the fees of weight.

So the the the thing I worked out with with Tom or the price, the quote I got from him was was he charges for his roll off container. Four hundred and fifty dollars. That includes the first ton of weight. And then after that, it's 20 cents a pound. So that's a pretty decent rate. And he's got the ability to haul these things and he's comes up here every two weeks to do the, so he wouldn't have to make a special trip. Cause it would be, it would sit for two weeks And that two-week period, the stuff can go in it. And then he'd come up on his regular trip up here to do the... So whose budget is this going to come out of? Well, that's... Yeah, we can approach the select board with it. Or we could I could get I could get a petition going and we could have people sign it and we can get it on the town. It doesn't I mean, it might not happen right away, but we could get it to be voted on a town meeting. And if the town folks decide that this is something they want to do. I like that approach.

So let me ask you this question. So somebody the people who are who would use this.

Mm hmm.

would be people who you might say their practice is to have less than attractive yards that's how they've lived and now you give them money taxpayer money to to clean that up what's to stop them from just having another mess as the time goes by you you have to structure it with um A fine that is held in abeyance. We already have a way to deal with this. We have a fine in the zoning bylaw. We have an ordinance already that covers this.

It's not enforced.

It was tried.

We don't have enough people to enforce anything?

No. If they give the authority to the zoning administrator to write tickets or something like that, that would be more... To enforce this, you would send notices of violation to all those people.

And then you would have to decide whether you were going to have lawyers involved and whether they would... I mean, because these... If they didn't clean up... You know, it's the whole process of having.

So when when the lawyers are involved, though, how much is it costing us then? So is the lawyer fees going to bury that?

Depends whether the person obeys the when you get send them a notice of violation and threaten to take them to court. They'll probably clean up their yard. You probably don't have to get a lawyer in most of these cases. They just. Well. But you can't just, you got to, you know. Los Angeles and most places can't even clean up their sidewalks.

Go ahead, Joel.

I mean, tell us what the problem is. I mean, once you start enforcing that ordinance that we have in there, any debris, household debris that has to be behind a barrier so that can't be seen from the public road. And that's what we have. And that's all we have.

I just think the best way to do this is... Well, I'm thinking, why isn't the landlord responsible? I was a landlord. And if my place looked like that, my tenants...

If they own the property, then they are the landlord.

No, you have a landlord. They're the tenants. Yes.

No, but they own the property.

Who owns it? Those people down on there?

I mean, there's probably a half a dozen places that potentially, you know, that have a substantial amount of debris out.

If if I guess the the situation is that if the select board really, really wants to enforce this, if you go to them and you really say make a case for this. Then we write notices of violation to these people and we tell them they got to clean it up and we be ready, if necessary, to back it up with a court injunction. And that's going to cost money. And if you're ready to do this, that's the process. The town has never been ready to do this.

Well, I mean, in the past, we've had we've had opportunities. We've had opportunities for people to we had bulky day where people could take the stuff that ends up in their yard and they could bring it down and and they could get rid of it for free. And and so that that may be why the problem has gotten a little more out of hand. We should bring back bulky day. Well, bulky day is really expensive. I mean, you know, and, you know, it's it is expensive and I get that. But I'm talking about these these grants would be for. situations where you know maybe it is an economic hardship for those people to to get rid of it and uh you know maybe they didn't put it all there or who knows um but i'm i'm happy to petition to get a petition and get signatures and get it you know vote to the voters in the town and accept whatever they decide i mean that's okay i i don't have a problem with that i see i

You know, say, look, this could cost us some money, but we want to go and clean up, do some cleanup work here. The situation we had before where somebody did, you know, Beth did try. She wanted to clean things up, but I just think we went about it the wrong way. If there's an intent that needs more than one person's desire to go do it, it's got to go.

Joel, the carrot versus the stick. And I think the carrot approach is going to get a better response than the stick. I don't know. I just think it does.

I don't know. It's a reasonable argument. It's not my call. It's not your call. Go to the select board.

And if you present it as a cost comparison, like, so they have a container so they can clean up their yard would cost this much. Yeah. And hiring lawyers to force them to clean up their yard would cost this much.

Yeah. I was thinking that.

So, you know, let's just try it with somebody and see what happens.

Right. I don't think the lawyers... I mean, we may have to go. I mean, we know the places that we're talking about. And I think most of those people notice a violation and a threat. They'll clean up their yard. But we got to be ready to back it up and we got to follow through. Once you put a notice of violation, it goes in the record books. If it doesn't get, if it gets corrected, you got to remember to go back and make sure there's a letter in there saying this notice of this violation has been cleared up. It's the whole process. It could hold up a title search if it's not done. That's why it's, you know, it's... How much time have you got to do all this? Yeah, that's part of the problem.

Well, that's full time. wait a minute not not full-time but but uh no i mean i think um i don't know i mean i don't know i i would be happy to to to get a petition going and seeing if we can get it on the town vote why not you see it because it's you know hey we vote every year on on donating to charities or whatever you know i mean it's it's up to the town how do they how strongly do they feel it's needed to clean this stuff up how much do you think it would cost for you to do that it's Well, I'm thinking one of those containers could probably tackle two or three properties

How about two or three containers to a property?

Well, I don't know if you're going to require that much. Any recyclable materials would be pulled out. Any metal. Who's going to do that? Well, that's kind of a negotiation, I guess. I would envision a group of volunteers, possibly. Yeah. versus you know versus It ain't going to work. I don't know. Saying it isn't going to work and not ever trying anything. I mean, I'm just saying.

You've got to get permission from the landowners to let the volunteers. Absolutely.

That would be part of the grant. If they're awarded the grant, they would have to agree to certain things.

Yeah.

There would have to be waivers. There would have to be things like that. You know, obviously.

You need a street enrichment permit to park that container in the street. Don't you have that in the bylaws?

Yeah. Well, I don't think it's going to be parked in the street. It would be parked on the property. And it may be there just an afternoon or two.

I think you need to document this. I think if you need to go, we have these are the properties. You need photographs. You need to show that there's a problem. And I don't. Okay. All right. I think that's the first step. If you can document a problem, then you have something to go on.

Yeah. So anyways, that's just an idea I had. So, you know, it's a possible solution.

Like Beth had said, though, it's not only the trash and stuff like that. There's, say, it's a lawnmower that's not working or washing machines or stuff like that.

Too many travel trailers, too many vehicles that aren't running.

Yeah, that's you. Well, there's a lot of, yeah, and that stuff, there are things like that that are going to be, that are going to fall outside the But just regular stuff, debris that's on the property. Anyway, so that's just an idea and we can consider it. I'll see what on Wednesday I'll talk to the select board and see what their thoughts are on the whole thing and what process we might take to implement something like that. Ultimately, it's going to be the voters' money and the voters can decide. It's their tax dollars. If they want something like that to happen, then it happens, right?

If not, then... The problem you're going to have is there's going to be people say, I clean up my yard for nothing. Sure. I mean, there's a lot of things that we do... You're going to pay my sloppy neighbor to clean up his yard? Why should I keep my yard nice?

Because I think in some situations, it benefits all. But, you know, I mean... I think everybody benefits from having a nicer place to live in. If you're living next door to it, you're probably not too happy about it. Would you rather just argue that point or get it done? You got to start the process and take it from there. I think, let's see, there was one One other thing that, oh, I can't remember what it was.

I wrote it down.

No, I think I got it. I think I got all the things I had on my plate. I think it was... Oh, the other... What I wanted was some guidance about the house being built on Derby Street. I've heard that... That should probably be reported as a delinquent structure or dilapidated structure. Or how do we want to proceed? I've seen more activity on it in the last few months than I had in previous years. What are we talking about? Log cabin. Log cabin. I thought you were talking about the ladies' old house. No, that's the... been uh violated you know are the letters been sent on that um but anyways i don't know what's the thought on that is is uh is give him a warning for a dilapidated structure you're talking about the log cabin that he has they're finished correct right

That's the only thing we have.

Right. So I could go over and talk to him. And when I see him and say, well, what's the plan? It's been being built for 20 years almost.

And he also needs a permit for that little tent thing that he's got there. Behind there, I saw that. He's got a travel trailer there, but I think there's something in the ordinance that looks like he's living in it sometimes. Probably when he's here working on it, he's probably living in it. Is it hooked up to water or sewer? That's the issue. You have to read about that in there.

It's hooked up by a utility. At one point during the winter, he had a stovepipe sticking out of it.

Yeah.

So he was he was burning wood in that thing.

So we want to so we want to ask him for a permit for the for his temporary residence there. We want to permit for that the trailer.

Well, you got to read that. You got to read the bylaw. Exactly what it says. I forget off the top of my head. But there's something about you can have a travel trailer, one travel trailer per lot. But it's not supposed to be hooked up to utilities.

If you're living in it and it's being used as a residence.

But that's a different thing. Then it would need to be used as a residence and just as a part-time thing. It's two different things.

You're not supposed to park it for more than three months, I think. 90 days, I think, is a... Yeah, I think so.

Okay, I'll do some more research on that. Yeah, but he should definitely get a warning letter.

a warning letter in regards to the, to the travel trailer or to everything, everything that's in violation. The house is dilapidated. It has is a messy pile of junk everywhere. The travel trailer shouldn't be lived in probably needs a permit pending on your research and that should go away. So there's three, three potential violations there.

I think is that, is everybody in agreement that we, yes. Okay. All right. So I'll, I'll pursue that then.

I think there's a travel trailer that sits down over the bank that you can just barely see on top of it.

Right.

Okay.

I thought you could have two trailers on your lot.

No. One?

One.

Now, as far as my ability, I can actually, I mean, I have no problem going over, knocking on the door, talking to these people about these things. There's no restrictions whatsoever about chatting with them beforehand? There's none. Okay. I just want to make sure it's not like a violation.

I've had half a mind to stop and knock on his door and ask him, do you need help? Yeah. Like if I brought over three extra guys, could we get this done in a couple of hours? The carrot is always better than the snake. Mostly framed. And he's got the rest of the material stacked up right there. Yeah.

You know, he's got all the rafters up.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's done a lot with the with the roof because that's all new wood. Yeah. Anyways. Well, because the other stuff's almost ready to be retired, right?

It's going to have to be sandblasted in order to make it look like it was when it first put in.

Yeah. Anyways. Yeah, I'll pursue that then. I'll go over. My approach has been to go over and talk first and then and then find out what's going on and then issue the the warnings or whatever as needed. All right, and that's all I got. Sorry, I didn't mean to take all this time.

No, that's fine. You're trying. We did give him, though, two years of leeway because of COVID. He couldn't come into the United States for two years. We took that into consideration. I think if you read your bylaws, too, that when you're building a home, you can have an RV there for one year while you're building a home. With a temporary permit, I think. Correct.

Right.

Well, and if there's no paper trail, he might get to start that clock fresh.

Yeah.

Well, we all know that it's been there for... Well... You all know.

Yeah.

I'm new here. Yeah.

Well, it was... I'm not, though. It was being built when I moved here, so... yeah all right but anyways i mean i'd like to see i mean really i would like to see it finished and done and him to be happily living there you know so it's like not a you know it's not a nice kind of yeah i think everybody would like this what's that he needs to be nudged for sure he needs a serious yeah i'll go over and talk i mean i'm happy to do that and travel doesn't hurt to talk i'm not

I'm not sure how you can call it a dilapidated structure, though, because it's not falling apart.

Well, it's the same section that has the part about all the junk in the public view not hidden from the public view. Right. I mean, there's stuff laying around on the property. It's not the dilapidated part. It's the other part of the clause in that same section.

That's not going to be my major motivation when I talk to him. It's going to be kind of like, hey, how's it going? You know, what's happening? When is this going to, you know, what do you need? I mean, how can we speed this up? It only comes up on weekends. Yeah.

Yeah, well.

I don't even think it comes up every weekend. It's all fuel costs are crazy. Come on. How can you do that? I mean, yeah. Anyways, that's all I have. Sorry.

Okay. That's good. Any other discussion on that?

All right. I think when we do permits from now on to buildings. that we need to give them a deadline of X number of years to get it done with.

That's in the revisions.

That's in the revisions, not in the current. Currently, you have to start the work within two years. Is that correct? Right. Yeah, that's all that's in there.

Amen.

And then you can have as many years as you want. So there's no there's no restriction. That's if that's why we can't. The guy, you know, he's not violating that particular made that change. You seriously need to stay away. It's not they cover when everything. Oh, no. OK, but but you all as a planning board decide on the bylaws and then the select board decides if they're agreeing with you. Right. I mean, my only job is to enforce the bylaws as they're written.

That's my job. But you know more about what the problems are, and you're the main voice. Sure.

And that's why I'm talking to you tonight. That's what I'm saying. Read those codes. You'll get a lot of interesting ideas. One of the things they have in there is the size of your shed varies with your zoning. So if you're zoned residentially, you can build a 10 by 12. If you're zoned ag, you can go up to 600 square feet.

Well, our setbacks vary and lot sizes vary with the different district. Yeah, we do have some similar.

Five acres. That little 120 square foot shag just disappear. You can't put anything in there. Couple shovels. Yeah. Rake.

Yeah. Just not a fan of having a lot more laws. Sorry.

I'm kind of a minimalist on that too. But they need to be clear and they need to address things that as things change, as technology or whatever you want to call it, as new developments happen, you need to have things that address those.

I mean, these storage containers are very popular.

That's why I think it requires some clarity. I think so.

I'm glad you're on that. Thank you, Bruce. Okay, moving along, we're just in to approve the minutes of the previous meeting. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes. Second. All in favor? Aye. Any other business? No? All right. We would make a motion to adjourn. Can I make a motion?

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Motion.

Meeting adjourned. Go ahead. I just want to say that I think these discussions are really interesting. They're valuable to have. I mean, this is good. Good discussion. Thank you. It's good to have Bruce here, too.

You got the pros and cons of everything. That's what I know.

Things they put in the last revision of the Hawaii Code.