Planning and Zoning Meeting - Regular Meeting

Are you an agent? For who? [snorts]

Who? All right, folks. We're going to go and get started. Welcome to the January 21st, 2016 Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. At this time, I request everyone please turn off or mute your cell phones and stand and join me in the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Applications for the conditional use permit request and resoning request will be heard during tonight's meeting and the commission will vote on these applications and make a recommendation to the county council. The applications will then be scheduled to be introduced before the county council at the Monday, February 9th county council meeting. Public comment for conditional use permit request will be taken during tonight's meeting and at the county council meeting on Monday, February the 9th. Public comment on conditional use applications will not be taken at any meeting of the county council held thereafter. The following documents are introduced as a matter of record for tonight's evening public hearing and regular meeting of the planning and zoning commission. There's the unified development ordinance of St. Charles County, including the zoning maps, the year 2030 master plan for St. Charles County, which includes the year 2030 future land use plan map and the rules of order and procedure for the planning and zoning commission as adopted by resolution 21101.

I see we have a quorum. Do we have a motion to open the meeting? So move. We second. Second. All in favor say I. Um

uh just so everybody knows um Chairman Ellis is uh not able to make it in person to tonight's meeting, so he is uh joining us remotely. Um, so you'll hear him uh in the background over the speaker. And uh we also just to kind of give you a little bit of the the lay of the uh night here, we um will open the uh public hearing after staff and the applicant have an opportunity to present um their request. Um at that point we will uh swear in the uh individual and uh you'll have three minutes to give testimony on um the item or the request. Um after the public hearing there will be no more public comments offered. Um we'll bring the uh application back here to this commission. Um answer any questions uh that the commission may have and then um potentially put a vote on it at that point. Um at this time are there any changes or additions to the agenda? Uh, seeing none, we will uh move into our first action item, which is application RZ2514. Uh, property owner is Peter Rook, Jennifer Rook, and Chris Mercer. The applicant is 110 Highway F, and it is currently zoned agricultural with a C1 proposed zoning. This is 3 acres in council district 2. Staff.

Yes. So, I got a presentation that I put together uh for this application. You might remember it from last month. Um originally it was C2. The amended um reszoning request was actually for C1 neighborhood commercial district and the area that they're trying to reszone is 3 acres out of the 10 total acres. Um and the property is currently used as a single family residence. The image on the screen shows the approximate area they're proposing to reszone to C1. Um, as mentioned at the last meeting, the applicant intends to create um an office, wellness, municipal, church, or private company lease space. Um, the applicant is here tonight, so he can kind of speak to his intentions better than staff can. Um, but just site information, like I said, the parcel's 10 acres in size. Um, and there's a subject or there's a uh a residence on the subject property with um an out building closer to Highway 94 South. When you look at the surrounding land uses, you can see the red stars there are all primarily single family residential uh homes and then yellow is non or yellow is actually applications um that have came through the planning and zoning commission. the closest adjacent one with the little red triangle. You might remember um an applicant got county council approval um to reszone from A to C1 for the purposes of a meat shop. That never happened. They ended up finding a a location on 94 in downtown Defiance. [snorts] When we analyze these resoning cases, the three things that we really look for is the 2030 master plan, the more specifically the future land use plan. Um the range of potential uses under C1 zoning and land use impacts to

neighboring property owners. As you can see by that picture, the neon green, neon yellow, whatever you want to call it, those are all primarily agricultural future land uses and the beige tan colors um are future rural residential uses and a lot of the that area has the agurism overlay um given the county's southwestern portion um the the wineries and and such down there. Um the range of potential uses now that it's C1, they're less intensive than C2. C2 is our most intensive commercial district, but the range of use uses is still pretty um broad and wide um to what can be proposed to be uh developed there. um for land use impacts to surrounding neighbors. The nearby area is primarily rural residential and agricultural farms. Um and the kind of the commercial node of the area um is pretty well established um in downtown defiance just down the road about a mile. [snorts] We notified all those agencies. Um we didn't receive any comments back from any agency. Um there was 51 land own land land owners in the notification uh radius and as of today we have uh received seven letters of opposition. With that being said, county staff recommends that the planning and zoning commission recommend denial of this resoning application. Any questions for staff? We'll invite the applicant to come forward. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalty of perjury?

I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Peter Rook, 110 Highway F, Defiance, Missouri. Um, thank you for the opportunity to present um my case. Um I think uh when I look at the permitting process it we're kind of a a victim of the inequity of the zoning rule because of what was mentioned by staff. The broadness of C1 uses I think creates a propensity for everyone to take the complete negative view of what could possibly happen here. So, I want to narrow it down and although I don't have a definitive plan, I think staff represented it very appropriately. Our goal is to build a development that will provide office use for health and wellness services, a doctor's office, a dentist's office, a chiropractor's office, um things that will be functional for the community. As we you guys well know, there's going to be a huge amount of development coming up in the Defiance area west of this location. The Hows have decided to sell their ground. They have 850 acres and they are going to build houses. There's additional development. Our emphasis is providing services in the defiance area to reduce the traffic flow out of defiance. Some of the opposition uh mentioned traffic flows. Well, this would actually uh reduce traffic flows fundamentally because if people are not driving past that stoplight to go to uh address the services that they need that would be present there, it will reduce the

traffic. Um our future projected use will be um a 9 to5 9 to6 a general business office use. Um, it shouldn't impede anybody's lifestyle. No more than the gravel trucks that drive up and down and the grinding machine that goes on 24/7. I hear it every day. I live there. But in in in the final point about the development is that I look around my neighborhood and I have of all the oppositions, I have the nicest house and I live directly behind the site. So if anybody is going to be in a feared or lose property value directly, it would be me. If I look at my neighbors and I think of defiance as a neighborly community, these people have been the benefactors of quietness and peacefulness for years and years. What I'm addressing here to you is you're the curator of the future. You are the balance between future growth in services and the citizenry. I appeal to you as a citizen myself and as a taxpayer myself that I have invested in the county and want to reinvest in a very productive development that will provide future services that will scale with the region. Now um we will provide whatever landscape buffer, whatever um accommodations need to be met to maintain privacy and comfort and all of

that can be worked out through the site plan and detail process. But I appeal to my neighbors, some of which do not maintain their houses very well, that you should consider the benefit of the full community. Um, we have a growing community. The the businesses in Defiance are boxed in. There is no commerce. Originally when Defiance was founded, commerce was created because they needed it to survive. Now we have the luxury of saying no when we know the need is going to be there in the future. So I appeal to you take that into consideration as you address our development. And um I thank you for your time.

Any questions for the applicant? All right. Thank you. At this time, we'll open the public hearing uh for application RZ2514. Anyone wishing to speak on this application? [snorts]

Guess I get to swear. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the My name is Lawrence Crane. C R A I N. We live at 2564 South Highway 94. Um, I'll tell you what, if you could pop up that uh map that you had um two or three slides back cuz I I brought one along with me, but that that may work just about as well. I'll just get started. Yeah. Um

once once once we get this up here, um this actually shows the whole area around the property. And as you can see, it's with one glaring exception. Now, all pretty much uh residential and uh farm. Go a couple more back from that if you would, please.

Oh, okay. Thank you. Um, sorry, didn't didn't anticipate this little festivities. Um, as I uh say, um, I'm a retired Air Force officer, retired small businessman. My wife is a retired nurse and now an active artist. Uh, we have lived here for 35 years. And we in fact live right here which up there is see the circular drive just kind of to the the left us. Okay. Uh we have basically that all the way back to FEMO sage. Um the property in question as you can see is the red red is surrounded in red and is in fact about half of that. It's the rightmost half. Um, but I'd like to just briefly talk about this other red scar because a few years ago, this council basically changed that to a commercial property. Um, as the staff said, they didn't in fact build the the the uh building that they said they were going to do there, but it is still commercial. And if you look at what they're talking about, you know, this applicant is do talking about doing right now, he's going to add three times as much space commercial as there was already there. Um, now I fully uh, you know, agree that he might have plans. Um, but if you turn that commercial, those plans don't make a lot of difference either immediately or sometime down the line. that can be turned into any commercial property that's verified C1. I don't think BIES is going to move there, but a gas station is not at all beyond the question, as is a liquor store or any

other much higher volume. Um, that being the case, uh, and like I say, I live now right across the street from what they're talking about extending, uh, we would ask that you recommend against this. It's just not a good thing for the neighborhood. And as you can see, it effectively quadruples the space at risk for being turned into something unpleasant. As a matter of fact, I'd like to make a counter offer. uh if the current owner of the red spot, whoever that is, I don't know, it may be these folks or somebody else would be willing to do so, I will buy that property for five5 to $6,000 and I will donate it to county just so I don't have to do this again in a couple more years. So, if you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them.

Thank you, sir. If not, I will get out of your hair. Thank you. Thank you for your attention. Anyone else wanting to speak?

Do you saw me swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record. Norm Keller, 211 Lee Street, Defiance, Missouri. Um, I live about a half mile away from this winery that's proposing this project. And uh, hold on, hold on. We're on the FN94 property. Oh, I'm sorry. So, come back up on the next one. Okay. Sorry.

Anyone else wanting to speak on RZ 2514? All right, seeing none, we will now close the public hearing and uh bring this application back to the uh council or commission. Um does the applicant have anything else to add or anybody have any questions for the applicant? I got question for staff. Okay. Um, reading through a couple of the letters, one of the letters said that there that it could be developed into a wedding venue. Is that possible?

I'd have to look through the code. I don't have that off the top of my head. Um, so I'd have to get back to you on that. I was just looking through the code and and uh basically the C1 neighborhood business district would allow um offices [snorts] um banks, churches, personal services um let's see florist group home facility institutions kennels lawn care service park or playground personal services including art studio, barber shop, beauty shop, laundry, etc. And retail stores, uh, public schools, private schools, private or commercial recreational facility, and then there's a list of conditional uses that would have to come get uh specific approval by the planning, zoning commission, and county council. So, it's, you know, office, retail, personal services, institutions, and things like that. Okay.

So, no gas station uh let's see. Convenience store would be a conditional use in that district. Okay. But they'd have to come back and and request that. Yeah. Can I say something?

Sure. Okay. And this is kind of what my first opening statement was is that the category, Bob, is just so broad that it creates so much misperception and fear in the neighborhood that I think it does the applicant some and yourself somewhat of a disservice because you have to make that ultimate decision. And I understand that's a tough one. And I understand, you know, I appreciate their living for 35 years. That's why I invested a million dollars in my house. I mean, I am I am fully committed. I live in Defiance for seven years. I would never do anything. Um, I am a proven business owner. Um uh so you know I I have a reputation to uphold not not only in the community but for myself. I'm a god-fearing man. But again that broadness is where I think all the problem is. If we could just narrow it down. I will commit to you sir that I would not put up

speak to us. Speak to us. Speak to us. Sorry. that I would not put a a Dollar General there, that I won't put a convenience store, but apparently I can't write that provision in there. It's not something that can be done. So, how do I then respond accordingly? I bought a piece of property. It's my god-given right to use that property to benefit my family. I'm not trying to do anything illegal or obtrusive. Um, so again, I understand. I'm just appealing for the right move forward considering the circumstances of growth in that area.

Mr. Rook, I have a question for you. Um, so initially your request was for C2, correct? Am I understanding? That was a confusion. Oh, that was a mistake. Yeah. Okay. Right. You never had an intent. Okay. So that's why it was tabled and brought back. That's correct. see one because it was a mistake and you're wanting to put in medical offices.

Well, I would like to do a soft office complex for doctor's office, business office, chiropractor, dentist, hair salon, something that is a generator of services for the local community so they don't have to drive. Right now, everybody and everybody that's going to move into Defiance in Augusta has to drive 35 minutes to get anywhere. That is part of the traffic problem there. They have to pass through that intersection to get anything. If there was some level of commerce in Defiance, the traffic would probably reduce significantly. But because there isn't, um, you know, the traffic flow is always going to be the same. I have a question and I apologize if I missed it, but how big of a building are you wanting to put on the plan?

On the three acres right now, we have a 7200 square ft barn. But the property lens itself that can be converted into offices. There's enough room for parking and maybe some out buildings, a nice out office building, obviously built to to county specifications and approvals. Um, we don't want to put up anything shy. The the barn was approved by the county. Um, uh, it's unoccupied now. We use it for storage, but it can be, uh, uh, separated into separate office units. Okay. [clears throat] So,

can we put the picture back up? I guess I'm not cuz I thought the barn was outside of the three acres. No, the barn's contained within the three acres. I think that is what he's talking about as the barn. Okay. Yeah. I guess if you magnify a little, you can see. Yes. That's a 7200 square foot barn. Brand new. What is that on the left? That's my house.

That's your house. Okay. So, as you can see, if you look at the entrance from F, the gravel driveway coming up towards the house, it veers to the left in in this case that goes up to my house. The property corner, the propose is at that corner diamond there. If you draw a line perpendicular over to about relatively the corner of the barn thereabouts, that is represents the three acres that we are proposing. Therefore, I'm going to build a barrier. As you can see, I live right behind there. I'm not going to build a Dollar General or, you know, a mini market in front of my house. Whatever Larry does or does not do with that property has no relevance to my zoning issue. That's the decision you guys made. It should have no impact on mine. um as this gentleman said the combination of those I don't control that ground and therefore assuming that that would become a larger development is I think an unreasonable assumption one unfounded for sure. Um so you know we do have relative access. The one component to this is that uh frontage has a highway 94 address already. The original house farm working farm was 251 highway 94. So there is utility service already located and a post box located at that site.

Any other questions for the applicant? We have staff after this, right? Yeah. Could could you go back to the one that showed where his house was?

So your house is within the three acres. No, that's my house right there. The 3 acre separation would be dividing that just drawing a line from the top of your slide to the bottom at the corner of of the barn relatively speaking. Right in this neighborhood there. Yeah. A little more over towards me. Towards me this way.

Down right there. About right there. If you cut that straight along to that point, that's [clears throat] the three acres. My house is directly behind there on the same property. So, whatever happens on there, I will look at 24/7. And you could enter it from both F and with the plan, both F and 94.

And I would dedicate just the 94 entrance to the the first three acres and maintain the entrance off of F to my private property. There's 700 uh 700 I believe it's uh 700 feet Jared of um access along highway uh 94. I don't it maybe it's 114 ft of frontage access that's represented by that line that runs continuously along Highway 94. That would be the primary entrance to the development

ultimately. That would be dictated by MDOT. Um, whatever they approved. [clears throat] Any other questions for the applicant? Thank you, sir. Thank you. May I speak? Uh, unfortunately, we've already closed the public hearing on this one. So, there no be no more public hearing on this application. Okay.

Any other comments, questions for staff? Yeah, I have a question for staff. So, when I'm looking at this application, it's still it's still showing as being requesting C2. Clearly, that's not the case. It's now C1. Um, and as we go down and look at where it says has the analysis and the land uses. Um, it's a little confusing by reading this which one it is because it talks about C2 and the uses of C2. Um, and then later on it says that you recommend denial of this application. So the question I have for you is now that it's C1, is your recommendation still denial? And if so, what are the reasons for that? Are they the same as the C2 or are there other reasons?

Yeah, I don't have the agenda pulled up or the packet pulled up in front of me, but we did a revised staff report and it was still recommended denial. I don't I don't think we have that. Okay. Because the one we have still says C2. What I have show C1, the cover page says C1, but then on the staff recommendation, it still has the C2 and the paragraphs reference can uh uses under C2, not C1. Yeah, but the the recommendation still stands for C1 zoning as well.

Are the reasons the same? Are there are there different reasons? Essentially, the, you know, like I said, the range of uses are less intense. It's kind of like the middle ground between our CO district and C2. Um, similar to the triangular portion, um, at the at the intersection of 94 and Highway F, we also recommended denial. Um, just examining the development pattern of the area, what's there, what's existing there. Um, commercial doesn't seem like a good fit there, which is why we recommended for denial.

And as a point of information, the agenda calls um for C1, neighborhood commercial district. Would you? Yeah. No, it does. So, it's it's the staff report that Right. The staff report is is confusing. Yeah. Would you have recommended CO? It's hard to say. I I don't want to speculate without doing deeper analysis.

I mean, the um one of the key things is the master plan calls for future agricultural uses with the the um overlay for agricultural tourism uses. There is commercial zoning and industrial zoning about a mile away in the town of Defiance, unincorporated town of Defiance. Admittedly, those lots, a lot of those are small. Um, but that's one of the factors that we use for the analysis for this property. I don't think that would change that much for CO as office commercial as opposed to neighborhood commercial as opposed to general commercial. But that's really a judgment call. That's up up to you in terms of what your thinking is. Ours is strictly a recommendation from our point of reference and does not include the public testimony. That's another point of reference. Any other discussion or questions for staff? If not, we'll seek a motion to approve RZ214. I I will motion that.

We have a second. [clears throat] Second. Been moved and seconded. Uh we'll uh call a roll call here. And uh Miss Bar, how do you vote? No. Mr. Ne Miller? No. Mr. Quinn? No. Miss Omera? No. Miss Kushner? No. Mr. Ellis? No, Mr. Baker.

No. And I vote no. That one does not pass. We will move on to our next item. Uh this is a uh tabled item on the agenda. Uh so I believe I need a a motion to remove it from the table. Is that correct? We have a motion to remove cup 2510 from the table for discussion. So move. Do we have a second? I'll second. All in favor of removing CUP 2510 from the table, say I.

I. No objections. Uh we will now open back up for uh discussion. If I recall right, we'll start with staff. But if I recall right, we did the public hearing last meeting. Um, we closed the public hearing, went into discussion, and it was we had some questions for the applicant from what I recall, and the applicant wasn't exactly here with us. So, we asked um his representative to come back uh to this meeting uh so we can reopen it um and open this back up for discussion if that's what you guys uh recall from from last meeting here. And uh staff, you guys have anything else to add? Uh if not, we can have the applicant come forward and uh we can ask any questions that we wanted to last month um about this application. So

um nothing there's been no proposed changes. I still have the presentation if you guys want me to do an overview of it. Um it's really up to you. You guys want to? Yeah, if you don't mind. Yeah, sure. Um I'll go ahead and pull it up. So this is the located at the Ridge Vineyards. um at on Highway 94 South um at the intersection of Highway 94 South and Dar Bottom Road. Um

this is a request to expand or amend uh CUP7 which allowed for buildings to conduct weddings uh wedding receptions or other parties. At the time they were not uh proposing any site improvements. they were just using what was um currently there in the cup area and the parcel area is 42 acres. This kind of just gives a rundown of the previous cups um that were proposed at the time. Um the main request is the two highlighted portions. One is um a proposed wedding venue. Um it's about 6,800 square ft based on our calculations. And then they're uh proposing to improve a parking area for 180 parking spaces um directly to I guess that would be the northwest u of the building. That's a elevation photo of what the proposed wedding venue would look like. Um there's also 2400 ft attached deck. Um and it's two floors. There's a lower level and then a main level. As I said, um they're going to be adding approximately 1.25 acres um of gravel for parking area. I do want to clarify the default in the code in the site plan section is for uh paving and that can be waved with a dustfree alternative, but it's not ne the default is pavement. Um so I just want you guys to keep that in mind. Um they're also proposing 18 lighting standards throughout the parking lot um to light the parking area. The surrounding land uses um there's multiple residential properties. The closest ones um are border Holden Road. They're kind of sandwiched between Holden Road and South Highway 94. Um the yellow stars are nonresidential properties. When I say non-residential

properties, they're primarily just vacant agricultural or agricultural farms themselves. When we looked at this um for consistency with the existing cup, there are a couple conditions that we suggested be amended and added. One of those was a type two landscape buffer um on the western and northern property lines. Um it's our understanding that there's mature trees there already. those can count towards the buffer requirement, but um any areas that might not be sufficient would need to be filled in um for that landscape buffer. It's hard to see from here. We're also asking for um a 6ft vinyl sight proof fence um on the northern property of the parking lot um to block lights from going into the neighboring property owners who have residences. Uh we want to block that try to block the headlights from going onto their property. As we always do, we notified all the listed agencies there. Um there are 65 land owners that were notified in that circle. Um as of today, we've received 15 letters of opposition, 65 signatures of opposition, um and one letter of concern. Um, similar to last time, based on our analysis provided in the staff report, um, the planning and zoning division recommends approval of the proposed CUP amendment, um, along with the updated conditions found in the staff memo. Any questions for staff? this time we'll uh ask the applicant to uh come back forward and uh I know when we tabled this we had some questions if you got anything else to add and uh I'm sure this group may have a couple uh

questions about the space as well. Right. So I prepared a broker here it is a a presentation um first off highlighting the plan area. Uh this is an slightly revised and updated um with respect to showing a little bit more detail regarding the northern property boundary there and then the western boundary in the parking lot and the proposed building. One thing I did want to point out with respect to this uh plan is that oh sorry do you solemnly swear or confirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under pains and penalties of perjury? Yes. Please go ahead and say your name and address for the record real quick.

My name is Brad Prior and my address is 200 North 3rd Street, St. Charles, Missouri. Awesome. Thank you. Apologize. No, you're fine.

But so this plan, it's it's extremely similar to the previous plan that was submitted in front of you. There's one slight change um and this was thought of here recently, but in this left corner um up here in the top left there is the potential for doing a proposed construction access right off of Holden Road into the property so as to avoid during the construction processes uh having to travel down through the property and potentially lessening a little bit of the disturbance with respect to the nearby residents. Um but again this plan is extremely similar with respect to what was previously presented last month at the qu at the planning and zoning meeting there was a few concerns raised by by the commission. Um the first being the venue capacity. So the fir the first issue I guess I want to make clear is that there is the restaurant/winery component of the operation and then the event or the the venue the special events operation that were authorized throughout the the conditional use permit history that Jared had presented in his uh presentation. Now with respect to this proposed building and the reason why we are here seeking this conditional use permit amendment is that the idea is to present or to uh to build and and and erect a new indoor event wedding space. Um and with respect to the specific numbers, the question that was raised, uh regarding the current numbers and then the proposed numbers, uh so the maximum number of wedding guests that could currently attend at the current property in its current state and what it right now is is 250. The proposed number in the new venue is also a maximum of 250. Now the average size of weddings that defines rich seas is anywhere right now

from 135 to about 150 guests. Um and really when you look at the current sta stat status of the current facilities with respect to weddings um it's in serious need for update and that's really the driving force behind this project and the the request here in front of you tonight. Um, one other item that was brought up as an item for concern was the issue with respect to two events on one day. Um, and really the focus there was, is there going to be a situation where there's a wedding in the current existing area and a wedding in the new proposed area. Um, and the answer to that is that any that occurrence would be rare if ever. Um, and I have a typo here in this slide on my second line and I apologize for that. Um, but not only will there not be two weddings and the most likely on a double event day would be a uh a bridal shower, a baby shower, um something in the morning that then in the evening there may be a larger event in the new event center. Right? The idea there is that while there may be two events, they're not going to overlap in time with respect to when those events are occurring and when the guests will be on site. Um, in this last point here, in the rare event that there were two evening uh events held simultaneously, it's it's very unlikely that either event would have maximum capacity. Um, and the reason for that is right there's only so many resources that the Fiance Ridge has to provide uh services to its guests with respect to these types of events. So there's there's you know confidently I can say that this the chances of there being a situation where there's a 250 person event simultaneously at the new proposed building and a simultaneous 250 person event held at the current property or at the current venue that's currently situated is is extremely [clears throat]

unlikely. Um remind me you have 180 parking spaces. So the proposed lot and I didn't so there's also with me tonight is in uh other representatives with the development team. So there's some specific technical questions that I may refer to them um in that one. I believe the proposal on parking is 160 [snorts] spots 180 or Okay. Right. Right. So the the 180 is what? But that's additional to what's currently on site. Well, so there's already parking, correct? Okay. How many parking spaces do you currently have?

The current parking spaces. Do you have a I mean there we there's no enough for 250 people, right? Okay.

Right. Um there was also I wanted to address um a few other quick concerns that were raised at the last meeting. Uh there was discussion with respect to how the water services and that came in connection with the question with respect to the whether or not there would be sprinklers required in the proposed building. Uh the water it's served by the public water supply district. So it's on public water. It's not serviced by a well. Um so in the event that the building requires sprinklers we will be able to to meet that requirement and all other requirements with respect to uh that situation. Um sorry about that. Um, and then the other thing I wanted to discuss tonight is is kind of a highlight of two of a few of the proposed conditions. Um, and a request that the commission consider uh amending those conditions. So, the first two pertain to condition number six and number seven, and they relate to uh the timing in which that events can occur. And both of them pertain to generally applicable an 11:00 a.m. start time, 11:00 p.m. shut off time. The 11 p.m. is for the weekends. If you see in here, it's a 9:00 p.m. for those weekday events. Now, the request that we have is to instead of having that be an 11:00 a.m. start time as if we were able to bump that up to 10:00 a.m. um currently the operations so the current condition doesn't have a limitation on the indoor operation of or an indoor event. And so there are currently right now events that do begin at 10:00 a.m. um consistent with the current conditional use. And the request would be to amend this condition uh to allow that to continue. and then keep it consistently with the the indoor and outdoor both having the opportunity to have events

that that begin at 10:00 a.m. And then the final request with respect to the requested provisions here is that again we're the general 11 p.m. on the weekends closure time we have no issue with. But with respect to the one night a year on New Year's Eve, if we could have a a stipulation in this condition that allowed uh operation until 1:00 a.m., uh that would be appreciated. The next condition here that I want to discuss a little bit is condition number nine. Uh this pertains to the landscape buffer. So staff has recommended a landscape buffer on both the northern section of the property line and then this western section of the property here. uh as Jared pointed out right the this area is mainly composed of mature trees and and as you can see here there's uh green space forested area to this way and then Holden Road and then this area is a wide open field. So our request here would be to remove the requirement for the western landscape buffer given the fact that these trees already are in existence and that buffering and the the the intent behind the buffering requirement is met by the natural uh currently currently existing landscape. And then number uh 11 pertains to the sight proof fence. We're not against um the making that area along the northern side of the property sight proof right here, but our request would be instead of having to install a fence is if we can achieve that through an evergreen planting or something similar. The reason being that in order to put the fence in, there would have to be existing vegetation and trees that would need to be removed. And from the standpoint of the buffering idea and and sound and mitigation from that from that standpoint uh we don't believe that

removing trees would be beneficial or in anybody's interest. And finally, so with respect to the master plan, uh the areas designated as agricultural tourism um right intended to promote tourism and economic development allowing for certain non-residential and non-aggricultural development. this plan it it meets that requirement. It brings tourism, it brings economic development to the area. Uh Defiance Ridge has been operating uh and is is requesting here to to have this proposed building to continue its operations. Um so we asked here tonight for a favorable recommendation on this uh amendment to the conditional use permit. Again, I will be here for questions and there's uh individuals associated with Defiance Ridge should you have any any questions, we'll be happy to answer. I do have a question for you. Um, you mentioned that you'd like Could you go back to the um the one about New Year's Eve?

So, okay. Where is that? I'm sorry.

Oh, on the bottom. Okay. No objection to the 11 p.m. in time. However, we request to revise the condition to allow operations to occur until 1:00 a.m. on New Year's Eve. Question on that one. You said to allow operations to occur. Um, number seven says, "All amplified sound indoors or outdoors shall be limited to 11:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. on any day except for Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, and legal holidays, at which time on which days the amplified outdoor sounds shall be limited to 11:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. Uh, the indoor sounds somehow got left off of that second part." So, I understand that on New Year's Eve things end at midnight and then it takes a little while to wrap things up and for people to go home. Um, as far as amplified sound, however, I mean, people are sleeping. You know, people who aren't in who aren't at a New Year's Eve party are sleeping. Is there any way that if would you be comfortable with saying, "Okay, well, we can we can take till 1:00 a.m. But to wrap up, but we're going to cut off our amplified sound at, you know, 12:15 or 12:05 or whatever, whatever after the ball drops, you know,

right?" Um, I I would defer, but yeah, I would defer that to them, but yeah, that we would be fine with that. of having the amplified sound being cut off at at whatever that time may be, but allowing everything to wrap up until that one. It's going to take a while for people to to leave. Right. But they need to be respectful of their neighbors. Right. Right. Okay. Um I got questions. Could somebody from the venue come up here? I got questions for them, sir. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? Yes, I do. Can you say your name and address for the record?

Uh, Chuck Gillantine, 1511 Lake Sherwood Drive. Thank you. Okay. Um, now on the property, you you have existing parking. Do you know how many spots you have now? Parking spots? Yes. Uh, we have we have fields. We have gravel parking spots. We've we've have enough for three or 400 guards at least. Okay. And then he said before that they were you're looking at having a 250 max on the wedding venue. Yes. Okay. On your website right now it says the pavilion seating. What is that? I'm sorry.

On your website you have under private events you have pavilion seating. Yes we do. What is that? It's that building can hold probably 300 people. Uh we don't have any weddings over 250. Hadn't in years. Okay. On your website, you say you pavilion seating up to 325. You have that on your website. Okay. Well, that's that may be on the website. I'm not didn't I don't know that. And then right above that it says terrorists with gazebo seating for up to 250. They're the same. the the in are you talking about the little gazebo where we have music?

I'm just I'm just saying what's on your website? Okay. The website is 250 is inside the the current building. It says terrace with gazebo seating for up to 250. Yeah. I mean that's if that's what it says. We we don't have any weddings over 250. Haven't for years. And then it says pavilion seating for up to 325 guests. uh you can hold that many people in there if for non-weddings for non-wedding events. Are those two separate facilities? No, they're same facil same facility. Okay. And then you're adding an additional 225 250.

No, the new building would be 250. So with the new building, it would be the 250 max for the weddings, but the idea is to take the existing wedding venue that are held in the current building and move those to the new building. So it's not a double up per se. It's just a replacement. So rather than have your outdoor events, you would have them indoors, which prime presumably would be quieter for the neighbors.

Yes. I mean there there's the idea too is that with the indoor event space that acoustic sound is less with respect to the weddings. Now there will still be certain outdoor events but not necessarily weddings and and similar idea similar issues that could be inside the building. Will staff be limiting occupancy to 250? Will staff be limiting occupancy to 250? We would. Yes. If they're only approved in a conditional use permit at 250, that's what they would be limited to. Okay. So, you can you can add a condition.

It would have to be a condition limiting to 250. My question is, is that a condition? Currently, no.

So, we've discussed a couple of conditions. We've discussed limiting it to 250. We've also discussed uh New Year's Eve, making the amplified sound cut off at 12:15 p uh a.m. Do we need a motion for either of those? No problem. Right. If we add the conditions. Yeah.

Can I have one question for clarification? Just so with respect to the 250, can can we get a clarification that that's 250 guest, right? because if there's caterers or other other uh related parties to the wedding uh we don't necessarily we want to be clear on whether or not that's 250 guests or 250 total people. Uh with respect to the hall itself the total occupancy uh when you look at the entire all the rooms the the main dance floor hall all of those the total occupancy is 370. So we're well below that total occupancy at that 250 guest mark. Well, that's the question for staff. If it's occupancy is 250, is that seats at a table?

We've been doing it as guests over the years when we limit we've typically the condition has referred to the guests. We haven't been referring to staff. I have a question too. Uh being two story is that 50 people on both levels. No. So, the the main uh event hall is on one level. Okay. What's What's going to be in the second story? We will have some office space, uh bridal room, uh things like that.

I'm sorry. Oh yeah. Well, we also will have a basement for uh uh for protection and uh stuff. You know, the tornado went through there a few years ago. Uh we will have a full basement to to handle things like that. Storm celler, sorry. And also, won't the fire department limit your guest? I mean, you know that they give they take in consideration the size of your building and then that's how many people you can have. That'll be part of the process. Yes. Yeah.

Any other questions for the applicant? Can you clarify? [clears throat] Um, you were talking I thought it was 11 maybe with the trees you didn't want. Yeah. Nope. Not that one. So, this is with respect to That's not the one I had questioned. I don't think it was this. You Yep. The landscape up here. No, you had a picture. Yeah. And you were talking about the trees on the left side of the picture. Yeah. So, who owns those trees? The the Defiance Ridge does. So, the property line is approximately in this this area. Okay. I wanted to clarify the property line. I wasn't too sure.

Good question. I had the same question. Why Why would you have to remove trees? Why can't you put the fence in front of the trees? That the to install the fence with respect to where the parking lot will be requires the removal of those trees. illustrations. Could you come up here if you're going to talk? Do we need swear?

Do you solemnly swear or confirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth and their pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Can you say your name and address for the record, please? John Okonnell, 524 Fox Ridge Road. Thank you. Um, all I was saying was that the information provided by the county in terms of how a landscape barrier is to be created includes the fence being on the rear of the barrier. So, it's along the property line is where the fence would go. So, you'd have to cut down the trees because they're currently on the property line. Yeah. I mean, thin them out, open the space up to be able to get equipment in and build a fence. And we're just saying a green barrier would seem preferable.

Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions for the applicant? I do have one. And I didn't see it in here. The parking lot is it asphalt or the gravel? Oh, we're proposing the gravel. So the staff had mentioned that the default is paving, but that they have to request um instead of paving they would have to do a dustproof alternative, right? But that they do not have the option of just dumping gravel. That's not Yeah. Like the default is pavement, asphalt or concrete. And if they're going to do gravel, they have to have a very specific dustproof. Has to be just

It has to be approved first by the division director of planning and zoning. Okay. So, they're not going to just dump gravel there. It's going to have to be a nicely done. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's something we would review and handle in the site plan process. I will say also about the fence. Um the type three landscape buffer requires a fence um on the rear portion or the back portion of the trees. We're not proposing a type three landscape buffer. Um, it's just a vinyl uh vinyl fence to keep um like light pollution from going onto the neighboring property.

Any other questions for the applicant? Thank you, sir. Thank you.

So, this is one that we've already had the public hearing on and we closed it last meeting. If you guys you guys want to open it back up. I think there maybe a few folks here that want to speak on it. So, let's open it back up. I know a lot of questions have been answered. Give everybody a short period to um bring up any new thoughts and uh then we'll go from there. So, this time we'll open up the public hearing for CUP 2510 again. Uh and anyone wishing to uh speak, we'll have three minutes. Do you solemnly swear affirmed? Tell the truth. nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury. I do.

Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Paul Rena. I live at 85 Holden Road, Defiance, Missouri. Um, good to see you all again. I am I am the neighbor to the north of Defiance Ridge Vineyards. Um, my home will be approximately 400 ft from the proposed event center. The county's own UDO page says approval can include specific requirements so the coop won't in quote injure the use and enjoyment of nearby properties and close quote or impact property values. I'm not enjoying what's going on next to me right now. This uh map shows uh 16 Defiance residents that are um part of the 65 signatures on the petitions who oppose the expansion of CUP 2510 and want to keep the Defiance area agricultural.

[cough]

Oh, that thing is kind of tricky, isn't it? This slide shows I'm sorry. Um, this this is a picture of the of the driveway that's 30 ft from the edge of my property line. You can see that is poorly maintained and not dustfree. I'm sure there's probably something growing in the middle of it also at one point in time. Um, we request that the paved road requirement that you've been talking about, um, that was Mr. Meyers stated at the last meeting, um, that that be added to the conditional use. I'm going to leave it there for a second. Um, in so far as uh from the 2018 presentation by the applicant's lawyer, he stated he quotes thinks that a,000 ft from the Defiance Ridge patio, their current patio at their location uh to the house to my house with trees and the contour of property line help mitigate potential spillover effect from outdoor music. Don't think that sound doesn't travel over these rural hills and valleys just because there are a few trees between my house and the current patio. He should come over to my house sometime and listen to the spillover effect. You've all been to weddings. You know how loud the music can be. And you know this new event center is going to be 400 feet from my house. So how loud do you think that's going to be when they open those doors on the patio? when they're out on the patio, I can hear them introduce the bride and groom from their current location a thousand ft away. So, um I'd like to know why the wineries get permission by counter government to allow to to ignore ordinances without

penalty. If we call the police, they say they do not have a decibel reader. Well, I will gladly buy one and and donate it for the use in defiance. Um, there's an advertised Mammoth March walk in Defiance coming up in September of this year, uh, starting at 700 a.m. They've been having that, uh, for the past three or four years. Um, on September 7th of 2025, the loud amplified voice of a man with a microphone with a with a microphone started at 6:45 and went on all day. Um, the current CUP714 states that they can conduct weddings, receptions, or private events. This is a public event. The grounds have also been staging areas for several Defiance parades, car shows, and other public gatherings. You're at your three minutes, sir. If you want to wrap it up quickly for us.

I I will. Um um at least once a week throughout the warmer months of the year, Defiance Retreat has a commercial fireworks display that lasts about 15 minutes. Through sunshine requests, we have found that there have been no requests for required permits or fees paid to have commercial firewoods play displayed for three years. They are a fire hazard to homes, barns, fields when the when the when it's hot and dry. My question to the commission is, is anyone checking and enforcing these ordinances? Why do we not have the and will the applicant follow up on their approved cups, you know, if it moves forward? These were the things we got from them. Um, just to quickly let you see what my requests for are. Um, I would like to have the parking lot moved 600 feet to the southeast farther away from our property line. The parking lot lights that are full cut off dark sky and minimal illumination outside the parking area. I don't want it coming over to my place. Parking lot lights should be turned off when the events are not going on. Um, I'd like to have everything paved, the roads and the parking lot. um the mature trees that I heard them mention about uh um uh certain kinds of trees that could be planted there that you know don't have their leaves fall off. That would be great. And uh I'd like to have that fence that they may extend along the upper part near my house um extended uh 500 ft long. And and I would like to add finally, if they're not planning on having two events at a time, then why do they need a second event building and parking lot? Thank you for your time. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak?

Do you solemnly swear affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Renee Rena. I live at 85 Holden Road. I am concerned about the environmental impact of the light pollution and dust from the location of the lighted 180 space car lot in relation to the closeness of our property and my beehives. I am also concerned about the safety of guests parking close to my apiary which I have had in this corner of our property for 5 years. Missouri statutes recognize apiaries or beekeeping as a legitimate agricultural use on our 10 acres. A dark night sky is a resource integral to many natural resources. Bees need to sleep at night and research is showing that artificial light at night may disrupt the bees circadium rhythm which may then threaten their essential role as pollinators. There are many farms with crops and fruit trees in defiance that require pollinators. Because of the potential safety risk, I would think the applicant and PNZ would not want to have a parking lot next to our property line, which is about 75 ft from my apiary. You may be putting someone at risk of having an allergic reaction to a beasting. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is the Missouri right to farm law provides that an agricultural operation like beekeeping cannot be deemed a nuisance due to changed conditions in the area after it has operated more than one year as long as it is not being run improperly. If you place the parking lot close to my apiary now and you later complain the bees are a nuisance with the applicant's proposed events and guest parking, my apiary cannot be deemed a nuisance. For safety reasons and for the issue of artificial lights affecting the bees at night, we are

asking the applicant to move their car parking lot about 600 ft southwest. My understanding is that PNZ has asked the applicant to consider moving the parking lot. Can the commission or can Mr. Meyers from PNZ tell us if the applicant plans to move the proposed parking lot away from our property line? Now I see that they want to add a construction entrance which is also right next to our property line. It appeared from that map which is also right next to the corner of my apiary. We are asking PNZ commission to not approve this cup 2510 and if you approve it to please require concessions that the applicant must abide by. We didn't move out to defiance 30 years ago to be living next to a parking lot and have a 6,800 square foot event center 400 ft from our residence. The requested amended cup goes way beyond the applicant's use and representations and findings for why the current cup 17-14 was granted several years ago. This amended cup significantly departs from the factors that lead to approving the cup 1714 several years ago. We hope that this PNZ commission would avoid approving a cup that forces an established agricultural use. my apiary to retreat or be burdened by preventable impacts like artificial lights, noise, dust, and traffic. This cup 2510 is a transitional change to our life and to many of our defiance neighbors. Thank you for your consideration of our rights and the rights of our neighbors.

Thank you. Do you solemnly swear affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Can you please state your name and address for the record?

My name is Roger Manning. I reside at 10 Walnut Springs Drive in defiance. Uh I've prepared a statement here. I'm going to try to stick with it, but based on some of the things I've heard, I'm feel compelled to kind of get off of it because I think you've all been presented with a lot of data that's quite misleading. Uh, number one, all of us that get up here, we live in the country, and I want to make it very, very clear, if you go talk to any of the residents in the Defiance area, and I'd spent some time with neighbors way up on Old Colony Road this past week, which is quite a distance away from that facility, they all say, I can hear the music. They all say, "We move from St. Charles or we moved from the city to come out to the country. We we don't want commercialization to come out here." The statement about in the previous cup was um the guy wanted to build something on the corner so we didn't have to travel out of town. We like that. We live where we want. We're not looking for local convenience. We'll drive to where it's at. So, uh we chose Defiance for the privacy, the space, and the freedom from nuisance issues such as the noise. Our neighborhood is largely made up of older residents. Many of us go to bed early. My wife and I retire at 9:00. Even my neighbor, which isn't as old as me, he's a St. Peter's police detective. He goes to bed by 9:00 because he has to get up in the morning. And it's very a nuisance to be rocked out of your bed at 9:15. My house is currently 1,200 feet away, not 400 ft. I can hear the DJ talking. I hear the laughter. Our roof vibrates. Our windows vibrate. It's very annoying. So when I hear about 11:00 at night, do you allow people in St. Charles to have go past 10:00 venues or neighbors next door having parties and going past tenna? Why would

we out in the country have 11:00? I I mean, and then I also heard uh the the zoning is that we're agricultural tourism. Uh, is the plan to get all the neighbors to move away from Defiance so it can all become Pigeon Forge, Tennessee? I mean, we don't want that. Um, it's extremely frustrating. If any of you if any of you had a piece of property and all of this went on, you would move away. You wouldn't tolerate it. So, um, the fireworks is already mentioned. I was going to address this. It's really interesting that it took the December 17th meeting plus uh the citizen filing for the sunshine to find out that there's been no compliance to getting permits. But there is one now for April of 2026, the very first one. So, what I'm proposing is that these fireworks displays, they need to have plans. They need to have a bonded uh pyrogenics professional doing this. What about Augusta Fire Department? Shouldn't they be on site in case they set the grass field next to us on fire or the trees? Uh, I don't think any of that exists. Now, here's something you'll find interesting. Last time we kind of dodged the issue about occupancy and a number of people and based on what I just heard is a bunch of crap. If Defiance Ridge is approved, traffic will increase significantly. events that currently generate 100 to 150 vehicles and they claim that that probably a good number could now easily double to 200 or 330. While the project owner may dispute that the scale of the proposed building and the parking lot tells a whole different story, large developments are not built for minimal use. We're led to believe they're okay for the future being 250. Why would you do that? That's a stupid business decision to do that. uh they are planning to double or triple the amount of people coming out. Now the other thing is have you ever been to a

wedding wedding did you go by yourself? So if we have 150 180 cars we're going to have 2 three four people. So that that increases 360 to 720 people going there. So unless the county's willing to say you can't go beyond 250 that's what's going to happen. They do expect to grow.

We're at three minutes sir if you can wrap up for us. Okay, to prove my point on this because this is important, I went to the St. Charles County occupancy code and it's based on building IBC codes from 2021 and you do the math that your county talks about. All depends upon whether you have tables and chairs or people are standing. I use the square footage of 4600 square foot not knowing how many people would actually be in the wedding. If you're seated in tables and chairs and and you have to allow for 12 to 15 foot uh distance from people, that's 306 to 383. So that's a large number well beyond that. Now, if they have one of these non-weddings and let's say they have a high school reunion or something like that, cocktail tables and are standing around, your your county department says 700 people can get in that 4600 space I'm talking about. So, it it's um I just thank you all for listening to me. I think you need to understand that we're dealing with a handful of people in Defiance that own businesses and they're the only ones that benefit. We don't benefit from all these people from the surrounding area coming in, but we have 200 plus citizens are appealing to you that we don't want to lose our way of life to a handful of people. Thank you very much.

Thank you, sir. Do you solemnly swear affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth and the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Okay. It's Mike Wadawa. I live at 388 Holden Road, right up the hill from Defiance Ridge. So, um, I'm not going to go into all the stuff I mentioned last time about noise, pollution, and all that kind of thing. Uh, one of the things that I've been been aware of or became aware of, I wondered what cup was when I came to the last meeting and it's conditional use permit. And there are some things spelled out on there, but what really bothers me is what they are able to do beyond conditions and use and so on like that. So, this is the Defiance Ridge calendar and yeah, they're a winery and they have music and on Saturday and Sunday if it's nice outside, I'll go outside and maybe even listen to a little music on my deck or something. But, you know, not bad. It's 1 to 4 on Saturday and Sunday. Not too bad. But this is the calendar. um four times in in the month of January they're going to have themed trivia nights and it's $25 per team. So is that a winery? Is that anything agricultural? No, it's an event. This is an event center. It's, you know, it's a hall. It's a whatever. So, um this Friday is bingo night. Movie bingo night. So, if you want to come out and you want to spend uh $5 per person, not too bad. But once again, it's an event. Okay, these are the types of things. One of the things that really bothers me, uh, the fireworks in the spring, in the summer, every Friday night, 9:00, clockwork, fireworks display, and things like that. Okay. And on Friday nights, um, as I mentioned, they have the trivia nights, but they also in December, they had Butch Wax and the Hollywoods out there playing music, charging, uh, $15 per person. So, [clears throat] once again, is this a

winery or is this an entertainment center? And one of the things I heard tonight that they proposed um, really bothers me. They said uh that the the building, the event building is going to be for weddings and birthdays and receptions. And what they also said was similar occurrences. Okay. Well, what does that mean? That's pretty open, isn't it? And if they're having bingo this Friday, maybe next month they're going to have casinos and they're going to bring in some uh you know, machines and things like that. So, uh, I that's the thing that really bothers me about the whole Defiance Ridge is that they like to do as much as they can to get around these things or bend it. It was a beautiful farm. They got a conditional use permit to make it a a nursery. Then they came in, some people came in and they wanted to sell a few glasses of wine, a winery. Okay. And we'll grow some grapes. Okay. I don't know if I'll be around five or 10 years from now, but what's it going to be then? Is it going to be a a Las Vegas casino down there or something like that? So, uh, let's keep it agricultural. Let's keep it quiet. Thank you.

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak?

Hold on. You're right. It's right. I can let him go first. [laughter] Wait till you guys are done and then I'll do you solemnly swear affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury. I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

Hudson Shade, 2670 South Highway 94, Defiance, Missouri. Um, I did send you guys a letter. I hope you've read it. I don't want to go over every piece of it for time. So, basically what I wanted to do was first thing was add a little detail. Everybody talks about the fireworks and one of the slides that Paul said was 2023 no permits were pulled. That was one of the years where we had uh a bad drought. Even the governor came out and said, you know, to watch fires and that and be careful. weather services, the USDA. Also, we noted that on Saturday, May 6th, fireworks were um shot off. Friday, June 16th, Saturday, June 17th, Friday, July 7th, Friday, July 14th, Saturday, October 21. In 22, they shot off fireworks. And that was a year, if you remember, um there was a combine fire in central Missouri and it uh burnt down half of a town. And in that year, the farmers around Defiance stopped their harvest because they were afraid their combines would catch on fire. But yet, Defiance Ridge lit off fireworks on October 15th. And those dates are just the ones that we noted from our house. That doesn't mean that that was the only times they were shot off. It was just the times that we noted. So,

and then the Mammoth March, it occurred on September 10th, September 8, uh, September 10th at 23, September 8th to 24, and September 7th to 25. All three times we called the police because this was going on early in the morning. I think Paul noted 6:45. You know, I live across 94 from Paul Renee. Our house is our our border is about 740 ft from there to the other side of Paul and Rene's house. So, the the property line for Defiance Ridge, I could hear that in my bedroom with the windows shut. Um, it would be my wife was on the porch. She couldn't enjoy her coffee because this guy's running his mouth all day long. I mean, do you really need amplified sound and telling people, "Oh, come up here. You're almost ready to run. Why can't you just gather them up? Why does it have to be a loud um PA system that's even louder than some of their music? And as far as um they were talking about right now the uh weddings, they could only have one because they don't have the staff and the capability to have more. But what's to say they don't get that capacity? And in addition, um, are they going to not have just an outside come and drink wine and listen to our band while we're having an indoor wedding inside.

We're three minutes. If you can wrap up for us. Okay. So, basically what what I'm trying to say is they take advantage. They do push the envelope. And in fact, I think they've exceeded it. So just because they say that we don't think we're going to do this, that doesn't mean that they won't. Um, thank you for your time. Thank you for listening to me. Anybody else from this side? [laughter] You'll see. You live in defiance. Aren't you on our side? Got to speak my piece. Don't you hear

for the third time? Okay. Sorry I uh Yeah, sorry I came up here. You saw swear affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under pain and penalties of perjury. [laughter] Name and address for the record. Okay. Norm Keller, 211 Lee Street, Defiance, Missouri.

Um first of all, I just want to talk about the fireworks. Uh everything that these guys shoot off is 500 g, which is sold at the, you know, counter level. So, you don't need a pyro technician to light any of these fireworks. They're 500 grand. [clears throat] I moved to Defiance not 35 years ago, only 19 years ago, and I own a historic bed and breakfast that's about a half mile from their place. I do not hear any noise. I don't uh recognize any difference in traffic. Um, everything they're doing is fully in compliant with the rules that they're governed by. But something that has not been mentioned tonight so far um is the 30-year master plan which you guys in government county council have devised uh it's control controlled growth and what these guys are proposing to do first of all I want to say I will not exceed my three minutes either um what these guys are proposing to do uh falls completely in line with the 30-year master plan Um, it would be a disappointment if this doesn't get approved. I fully support it. Thank you for letting me speak.

Anyone else wishing to speak?

Do you solemn swear affirm to tell the truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Barry Greenberg. I live at 7303 Vine Avenue and uh uh I'm a registered architect and uh some of the claims that were made previously uh with regards to uh occupant load uh you know the international building code is very specific on how you calculate uh your occupant load and Um and the occupant load is mainly uh designed to uh ensure life safety. So we have uh provisions in the project not only to uh for fire safety but uh we have a storm shelter in compliance with I ICC 500 uh which I think is a benefit to the the existing facility also. Um, with regards to, you know, fireworks, uh, that's a policy issue that I don't think that's governed by zoning ordinance. So, I'm not sure why there's And let me just say that, uh, uh, in my other life besides an architect, I'm mayor of Maplewood, Missouri. And, uh, you know, uh, we would love to have this facility in Maplewood actually. Uh, And uh as far as the uh the use group issue with regards to the code, it doesn't allow casinos. So stating that there's going to be uh three times as many people and other uses that aren't allowed doesn't make sense to me and uh and shouldn't be part of your decision-making process. uh you know with regards to sound, we

regulate sound by decibel levels at certain distances and you you quantify the the sound and we have uh uh different opinions on whether the noise is a problem or not. Uh I I assume that you have regulations uh for the county that limit the uh the sound intensity at a certain distance as you uh in in the same manner we can limit the uh light cut off. Uh just because there's lights doesn't mean that there's going to be lights on adjacent properties. Uh there's a million different uh lighting fixtures that have uh you know since I went to architecture school but that have very specific cutoffs. They can provide light where they need light and it doesn't become uh a glare problem you know on adjacent properties. So, you know, most of the issues that I've heard stated, uh, there are solutions to those, and some of the issues that I've heard stated, uh, aren't really building or zoning issues at all. So, um, and just one last comment with regards to economic development, uh, you know, the the sales tax from, uh, from this property, uh, from the development goes to the, uh, the county of of St. Charles. And, uh, I designed Schlafley Bottle Works. I designed Side Project Brewery. and um I'm not sure where we would be in in Maplewood without the additional revenue and and the other uh economic development that's occurred since since those projects were developed. So uh you know I think that needs to be taken in consideration too

the economic bel uh benefit and it's also stated it's in compliance with the comprehensive plan that's uh that's projected for the future. So, thank you for your time. Sure. I have a question for you. Yes. Are you [clears throat] the architect on this project? Yes, I am. Okay. So, the the extra parking that they're adding 160 spots and they're saying that there's already what almost 300. Is that correct or am I missing something here? Actually, you know, uh I'm the architect for the building. I'm not the civil engineer for the uh Oh, okay. for the site plan. cuz I Okay, I have a question for maybe somebody else in on the parking you. Okay, we can have him come back up once we close the public hearing.

Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Thank Thank you.

Anyone wishing to speak? All right, seeing no one, we will close the public hearing CUP 2510 and bring it back to the commission if the applicant would come forward. Um, anybody have any questions for applicant? And uh I know we've already got one. Yes. Sorry. Um, okay. So, how many parking spots are there already? Swear. Oh, does he need to do so, swear, affirm, tell the truth, nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? I [clears throat] do. Please state your name and address for the record. John Stannic, 3625 Northmore School Road. So, how many spots are there currently? [clears throat] We don't know how much how many there are currently, but I would estimate probably 80 to 100. That's paved parking.

Okay. So, when they have overflow, they use the field that we are going to call parking. Okay. So, to say that we're going to have 300 more vehicles, it's there's no way possible. So the if I'm not mistaken there's codes that say you have to have like five and a half parking spots per thousand square feet something. I don't know what it is. You're right there. Is that right? Okay. Yes. So per code you have and that goes off square footage of your your business. Right. Yes. So if this if this business has 250 people, how many spots do I mean it sounds like you have more than enough spots.

We should for for both facilities. Yes. But to say that we're going to have 180 more vehicles than we do now, it's it's not possible because it's just that there's not that room there. So where people are parking right now is an open field, right? We're going to make that gravel for this facility. Okay. I guess one of my questions was because the [clears throat] somebody had commented about the parking lot being so close to her with her bees. Yeah.

Is there a way you can figure out per code how many spots you have to have? So maybe you can move it over a little bit away from her property. Yeah. And that's something that I was going to I wanted to talk about too. That's on the plan. Can you pull the plan back up? Like the site plan. It shows the 15 foot buffer that's there. And everything's to scale on here. We've had this surveyed and everything. So if you look at at that drawing, you can see that 15 foot is actually probably 30 to 40 feet and in a lot of spots. Okay.

Now, I don't disagree that maybe we need another buffer down low. Maybe do some greenery down low or the sixoot fence. the greeny would the greenery would actually look better obviously for a winery but I don't disagree with needing that but yeah you could see here um especially on on the left side right right right there you can see that you know that's 15t there and it's 15t there so there's there's a lot of greenery that's over here that you know makes the 15oot buffer okay thank you any other questions for the engineer yeah I Okay. Did you look at or have you looked at if you pave that, how much additional runoff would would impact the adjacent properties?

And that's something we will address. You haven't done that yet. I'm just curious. We have not. Well, there's a pond there. So, our our initial thought was to uh increase the size of the pond to have a bigger retention pond. Yeah. I I I mean, I think a gravel is is appropriate here. I mean, I think if you if we paved it, I mean, would most of that drainage go into the pond? I'm trying to remember that back in that direction. It wouldn't go off the off-site area to those adjacent properties then. Yeah, it it'd be retention. So, I would have to do calculations except the except the entrance if you same runoff. So, your your runoff tomorrow after the development would be the same as this.

Well, but if you pave the access drive, you wouldn't be able to detain that. So, technically, you would be increasing the runoff on the adjacent properties if you did pave it. Is that safe to say? gravel and asphalt really kind of have the same perability. Okay. It doesn't really increase. I mean, it's a little different, but yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I I got a question. Several of the speakers said about moving the parking lot. Have you looked at that?

We haven't. When I drew this up, uh they had spoken about using that grass area, right? Right there, the grass area for parking. So what I when I designed this area, I just did the whole thing gravel to make sure we had enough. Now when we go back to do if we get approved, we'll go back and see how many required spaces that we have to have for the existing facility and for this facility. But what about they specifically said about moving at 600 ft?

So 600 feet would not be would not be feasible and part of the design for [snorts] the building. So, I wish I had a more zoomed out view of the aerial, but part of the design for the building which will be here, the pond which is here, and then the proposed parking, it all builds into each other. So, the parking lot couldn't necessarily be moved southern to the south anyway. Number one, there's these trees here. And then number two, the way the the property lays out, it's just that area is is the best suited area for the parking.

But potentially, you could on the north side. I believe it's the northeast side. She said the bees were on the other side. potentially you could like have two, three, four parking spaces that that weren't gravel that was just grass there that you had less parking to keep people away from that 10 acres. Any other questions for the applicant? Oh, what about the the question on turning off the lights when there no events there? Yeah, that that that'll be that'd be acceptable to add that as a condition. Yes.

Okay. And then there's still to me a question on the total occupancy of of the whole event space. So, as Barry said before, that is um predicated by the international building code. So the fire district will come in and they'll say, "Hey, this is what it we will design it for this. They will approve that." And yes, it may be around 300 320 people, but you know, we're not expecting to be able to sit that many people inside of the building. Okay. But you were saying before 250, right? 250.

I can add a quick clarification on that. I think so. The way that the building is currently designed, the main hall event space will be approximately 4,200 square ft. And based on the occupancy load calculation, the total number of people that would be permitted in that space is 286. And so that's where it comes back into the entire building itself. When you add up all the rooms with the entire square footage and each room individually, it comes to uh the total of 370. The event space itself is 286 which then the number of guests would be at that 250 mark is what the what the maximum number of guests would be shooted would is what is being shot for.

So you wouldn't have a problem with having a condition of a 250 max guest guest 250 maximum guest. It's similar to what you pulled up. You said that their their facility said something like 320 during a wedding event. Obviously, they're going to have a dance floor. So, that's why they probably have the lower number because they use the pavilion also. I'm guessing that's why that that is most of the most of your occupancy is based off the international building code and approved by the fire district. But yeah, the 250 that's fine.

So, it seems to me like there's a lot of specific details that have been gone over tonight and it's going to be a bit to go through all of them. Um, but I have another question specifically regarding amplified sound. Um, right now everything is indoors and outdoors. It seems to me that it makes sense to have those be different. I mean, outdoor amplified sound would clearly travel farther than indoor amplified sound. Would you all be open to having a different time for the indoor versus the outdoor?

Are you in terms of the condition you made number seven there? Yeah, because I mean you said that your basic reason here for building this building was for the most part to bring what you're currently doing outdoors and bring it indoors, which I would think would be a net positive for people who wanted less sound traveling to their houses. But if you're going to have it all indoors and then also have it outdoors, that's not going to improve the sound issues. sound cut off at an earlier time. I'm fine with that, right? Except for Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Sunday is we get enough for the evening.

So depending on what the exact parameter would be or what that time would be um we would be fine with that. We will we will note that generally the um lunch service and the the outdoor shuts off at 4 p.m. Right. Right. So that from that standpoint, but for having different cut offs for the indoor sound versus outdoor sound, we would be okay with okay within. And I'm curious too, you have here um to 9:00 p.m. on any day except for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday and legal holidays. Why Sunday? I mean, people go to work the next day on Sunday. So that was this is the condition as proposed by staff. That's not our language. I just I took that from the proposed condition

cuz I mean Fridays and Saturdays make sense to me, but like a Sunday night going till 11:00 p.m. I mean, you got to get up and go to work on Monday. There are holidays on Mondays and sometimes we have weddings on Sunday nights. Okay. Very rarely. Well, that would fall under legal holidays, I guess, or not entirely if the holiday was Monday and you had it on a Sunday, right? And I think that was what the intent was. if in the event that there's a Monday holiday, then having the Sunday before being allowed to be open till 11:00 to filter into that holiday. Okay. If we did do the different for the indoor and outdoor sound, um would you be open to having outdoor sound finish at 9:00 p.m.

in general or I what would be a what do you think would be a reasonable time to finish up with the outdoor amplified sound? Outdoor amplified reasonable time to end it. En end. Well, you know, on our concerts tonight, uh we end at 9:00. Um and most our weddings, the music is over by is is inside mostly it's over by 11. Most most of most everybody's gone by 11. All right. I'm talking about the outdoor sound. What do you think would be a reasonable You think could you do 9:00 every day for the outdoor sound? Not the indoor indoor separate because that's closed.

It's some weddings uh you know, they want music outdoors on certain days. on on uh in summertime and this and that, but most of the time it's in it's in inside. Okay. But from just the standard condition, if they said no outdoor sound past 9:00, would that be accepted? Yeah, I think so. Let's talk about it. John had something to say about the condition. Yeah, he that was just the current. Yeah, that in the Yeah. So, if outdoor sound was cut off at 9:00 p.m., I think that would be acceptable.

Okay. To have that differentiation. All right. Any other questions for staff? Kyle, you have do you have extensive notes for all of these? No, I don't. [laughter] I'm actually kind of lost on all the conditions that you guys have changed. I actually I have a few notes here. Okay. [laughter] All right. Well, we'll uh thank you for your help. We'll uh bring us back to the commission and uh further discuss and talk about the conditions here.

Yeah, I mean I think we have a lot of conditions that have been talked about. I think there's some some real genuine concerns that the public has that need to be addressed. Um if I lived with my backyard to a wedding venue, I would definitely want to address some of these things. I don't know that they're not solvable issues, but I think that if we don't at least attempt to solve them, that we're doing the public a disservice. Um, a lot of the things that were talked about, we've got sound, we've got lighting. Um, we've got a paved parking lot or a paved road. Um, they talked about distance from the apiary. I'm not sure if I'm missing anything else. The timing of uh New Year's Eve. Yeah. specific rules discussed

have the conditions from the packet pulled up on that screen if you find that helpful if we can pull that up back there. And then the uh the applicant had also requested some changes to some of the conditions specifically landscape buffers. He'd said he didn't want to have a sight fence. He prefer to use green space. There were some some specific things there. So I don't know if they have those written out that we could look at. That would be helpful as well. their their requested changes. So obvious anything in bold is added, anything struck out is removed. This is the conditions from CUP 1714.

Um so and I guess anything not bolded is just carried over from uh the previous CUP. So I mean I I'll get started. I I'll go ahead and make a motion that number seven, we change um I don't know how to word it exactly, but that we separate the indoor and outdoor sound and that we say that all outdoor amplified sound shall be cut off at u 900 p.m. Sorry, can you say that again? Sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry, can you say?

Yeah. You know, I'm going to uh make a motion that we change number seven to separate the indoor and outdoor sound and to suggest that the outdoor sound, outdoor amplified sound specifically, be cut off at 9:00 p.m. every day. Okay. And we can leave the indoor at 11:00 p.m. on the weekends. I Jennifer, I have a question. Okay. on your on your amplified looking at the at the uh proposed uh restriction. When is your start time for outdoor amplified sound? They have it at 11:00 a.m. Okay. So, you're going to leave it leave that at 11?

I I'm okay with Oh, did they I think they wanted 10:00 a.m. actually, which I mean I think that's fine. people are awake by 10:00 a.m. I think the evening is more of the the condition is more of the problem than the morning. Of course, we can address the 6:45 issue, but that's not really a planning and zoning issue. That's more of a they're already breaking a condition there. So, do we have to anything for fireworks? It sounds like they're not really uh doing commercial fireworks. So, do we actually need to put that as a condition? Um, you can, but firework, any firework display requires a per a permit from a display, but not lighting them off.

I mean, it's a display. So, Oh, that's your cell. Yeah. So, building code enforcement um issues a firework display and there's some requirements that they have to submit with that uh firework display.

Do we want that as a condition? I mean, I it sounds like they're not doing it now, but this seems like a concern. So with respect to the fireworks issue, um there was so Defiance Ridge did have an issue where there was an employee in charge of receiving and and obtaining those permits. Uh that employee left and that issue as an administrative issue fell through the cracks and when learned about we have since then reinstituted that process of ensuring that those permits are obtained. as the uh the gentleman had pre had said that there has been a permit obtained here for uh an event coming up. So that that issue moving forward will be corrected and and not repeated.

I mean that's an enforcement issue with whoever I mean we don't have the authority to find you or do anything with that. That's somebody else's job, right? All right. So, we have a motion on the table to amend number seven to limit the amplified outdoor sound to 900 p.m. and also bring the start time to 10 on every day. On every day. Yeah. So, we have do we have a second? Second. All in favor somebody to write it specific language for us. Oh, I thought staff Robert's hands are moving like crazy.

Okay, awesome. I'm not writing it word for word. I'm just taking notes on. So you're you're saying for number seven, separate indoor and outdoor sound. And the indoor would be from 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. Outdoor sound 10 a.m. to 11 p.m. on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays, and legal holidays. every day uh 10:00 a.m. to 900 p.m. for the for every day, right? But then during the week,

but during the week, but then Friday, Saturday, Sundays, and legal holidays, we're separating indoor and outdoor. So indoor would still be uh 10 to 11:00 p.m. Outdoor would be 10 to 9:00 p.m.

Does that make sense? Not really. No. Let me let me Okay, let me start up. Okay, so all amplified sound indoors and outdoors shall be limited to 10:00 a.m. to 900 p.m. on any day except and that says expect by the way should say except [laughter] Friday, Saturday, Sundays, and legal holidays on which days the amplified outdoor sounds shall be limited to 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. That's that's the only difference. So because the second part they don't say anything about indoor sounds. So then the indoor sounds would be still under 10 am to I guess it would still be 10 am to 9 pm because they don't have

well it's not what I said before but what's interesting is that uh the current one doesn't say anything about 11 p.m. for indoor sounds. I guess we need to add that in then and say that the amplified indoor sounds shall be limited to 11 to 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. and the amplified outdoor sounds shall be limited to 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. Does that make sense? Who's who's writing this down? No one's writing it down just because it's so complicated. What we could what we could do is we could listen to the um audio visual. Okay. And create something. Okay. That' be one way to deal with it. Or you could just make that motion verbally and take a vote on it, I suppose. And

all right. I will make the motion verbally and I will read it exactly how I think we should have it. Okay. So number seven, I think it should say all amplified sound indoors or outdoors shall be limited to 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. on any day except Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays and legal holidays, on which time the amp on which days the amplified outdoor sounds shall be limited to 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. and the amplified indoor sounds shall be limited to 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. during the business hours of operation. Second.

So have a motion and a second. All in favor of amending uh number seven as presented say I. I. Any objections? I. All right. That amendment passes. There was not an objection. Now what other ones do we want to attack here? I sorry I should have I it didn't ring bell but they did ask for a July 4th exception which we did not address a July 4th exception on sound New Year's Eve I think it was New Year's Eve New Yeah that would be a separate exception total but I don't I don't think it's on it's not on there at all. Should we folded that into seven or do we just create a new it

create a new Yeah. Do you want to do that one?

Um I think on number 10 it says all exterior lighting include not limited to parking lot standards and building wallp pack lighting shall conform so forth and so on. Um I think that needs to also say exterior lighting will be turned off when events are not ongoing. So, we'll need that motion as well. Just add that at the very end. So, um I'll make a motion that number 11 um added to the end of it. 10 10

I'm sorry, number 10. You're right. Added the to the end of it after and we can put and all exterior lighting shall be extinguished when events are not ongoing. Second. [clears throat]

So, the only discussion I would have on that is We said all exterior lighting, right? So having some lighting on a side of a building is necessary for safety and and that sort of thing. I I get that. So I don't want to limit it too much, but if we can say parking lot lights and or if we say something about it already has on here, right, to make sure that that light the section is making sure that the adjoining properties so that I think that handles it, but making sure the outside big lights are turned off at a So how do you want to separate that? You want to say the big lights? I think they're No, [laughter] say say all parking lot lights shall be all parking lot lights

turned off while events are not in in session. Do you want a motion then? I'll let you do it. Go ahead. I just I can't make a motion. Oh, you can't make a motion. I mean, I think you got to be you're going to have you're going to have employees. I mean, it needs to be [clears throat] I wouldn't if if I own if I had employees working for me. I don't want employees walking in the dark. That makes sense. So even though the event's over, I mean, we can't in my opinion. We're we're talking when there's no events. Well, we said when the events are not ongoing. So if the events finished, but the employees are still cleaning up. The problem is you'd have to have a definition of event.

That's true. Um, they're going to have to have lights in that on the parking lot. If uh there is no no event, but someone is in the original building and they're getting ready to leave, it's a safety issue for Defiance Ridge when that person stumbles and falls trying to get through the dark out to that parking lot. I mean, it's hard to legislate somebody into into being a good neighbor,

right? the the the design of the of the lights uh should there's enough of that in the code, Robert. The design of the lights should downcast u the parking lot lights to keep the light pollution from u the neighbors. Correct. that section 405421 that handles um shielding orientation illumination levels at the property line. Um so those they would have to comply

full cut off full well the the condition is uh kind of designed for full cut off lighting. So like a level it shouldn't be creating light pollution is what you're saying. Yes. Full cut off. Full cut off lighting should ideally. Yeah. Meets the international dark sky standards. The full cut off Dark sky standards. That's good. Okay. What's next? Does that cover just all lighting that's even currently or this just going to be is this only impact new? All lighting. All lighting. So,

so like that section all all lighting has to comply with section 405421 regardless. So, what about the parking lot and the road? We discussed paving. What do you guys think about that? I don't think I don't think it's necessary as long as they have a dustfree I mean they already said that they have to have some sort of dustfree system. Okay. Didn't you have some requests yourself?

Yeah. So, that's what I was just flagging at here. I had it in my uh my presentation. So, in connection with the change on number seven regarding the uh amplified sound, we would also request that number six be amended to change the start time from 11:00 a.m. to uh 10 10:00 a.m. to be consistent across that. That makes sense. Is that a motion that you're Yes. So, uh, we motion that number six, um, no outdoor or indoor event shall be held after 11:00 p.m. or earlier than 10:00 a.m.

Can we add on to that with the exception of New Year's Eve, which can go until midnight? Well, didn't we say we needed to do a whole another one because this this talks about that. I think it should be we can put Well, because it also has to do amplified sound on New Year's Eve. So, yeah. Yeah, you're right. That's like a whole. So, we have a motion to amend number six to say earlier than 10 a.m. rather than 11:00 a.m. Do we have a second? All in favor say I. I. Any objections? All right. Seeing none, number six now is earlier than 10 and then we can tackle the New Year's Eve. Do you have any suggested wording on that?

Uh, I did want to just mention real quick. We did. So, we had two other requests on number nine with respect to the buffer along that western side of the property. Again, that was pre-existing green space. Um, we would request that from respect to number nine that remove the requirement that the buffer be put on the western side of the property, but we understand the northern side would require that buffer. So, don't you doesn't the green space that you have now basically already qualify for a buffer?

Yeah, I haven't reviewed it from the standpoint of where what the technical requirement is. I know that there's a chance that it could qualify, but I don't know the answer to that 100% one way or the other. So, if we were to remove that requirement, then if it doesn't qualify, you wouldn't have to make it qualify. But if we leave the requirement on there, then if it already qualifies, then you don't have to do anything. Right. That's true. Yeah. And that that's that's that's reason why I that was just one of them.

Um and then the last one that we had requested was with respect to number 11. um and changing from a six-foot sight proof fence to being uh evergreen or or some other similar planning to accomplish the same sight proof uh intent instead of the fence to avoid tree removal. That's probably a question for staff. Is that even permissible? Yeah. Yeah. What's the I guess what specific

he's wanted to get rid of number 11 and instead of having a sight proof fence, he wants to have I guess some sort of a landscape buffer instead. Is that allowable that we can change it? Because he's already got there's already a type two landscape buffer on the northern property line, but then number 11 has a sixoot sight proof fence as well and he's wanting to get rid of that and use some sort of landscape buffer instead. Is that even allowed? They can do a landscape buffer. So, I mean it could be cuz they've already got one type two. Would we need to change it to like type three or something?

Well, but I I think that also comes down to the public comment and the property owners being so close. That's going to help with sound. Trees die, things go away. I I don't know. I I think the fence and it was even brought up as a comment that we want to put 500 feet or 600 feet or 700 feet to make sure that fence goes. So, I don't even know that removing it is worth Other thing is people can walk through trees and especially if there's bees on the other side. You don't want anyone walking onto the other person's property and getting into that apiary for their safety. I just think the fence is going to be better because the neighbors are close right away where

it's not going to take three years to get the buffer installed. Right.

Okay. So the that's fine. We we're fine with the fence. That's Did you have any other requests? Uh no. The only except for the New Year's Eve. Yes, ma'am. Yeah, that was the last one. um in terms of suggesting language whether obviously it's the commission's uh option or decision but I guess there could be a new condition added that something along the lines of notwithstanding any other condition here into the contrary uh the applicant shall that's what John right uh shall be able to let's see

you don't want to say notwithstanding any other condition because there are other conditions already notwithstanding the other. So, you're asking for an exception to the other conditions, right? Um, let's see. 10. So the problem is is we've got the sound and the no outdoor indoor event two different conditions talk about this correct

I don't know what preamble you want before we come that you can just suggest that I was going to suggest any New Year's Eve event A shall have amplified sound limited to 10:00 a.m. to 12:15 a.m. and B shall end by 1 pm I think those were the 1:00 am excuse me I think those were the times that you had said um when you say shall end by 1:00 a.m. does that mean people are going to be gone by 1:00 a.m. or that you're going to close up shop and then people will start to leave at 1:00 a.m. I think the intent would be that once the music would be off, people would start leaving and then and they'd be gone by mostly gone. Yeah, that's you may have some employees cleaning up, right? But yes, we would event.

So, what was your what was your language again? Any New Year's Eve event A shall have amplified sound limited to 10:00 a.m. to 12:15 a.m. and B shall end by 1:00 a.m. That seems reasonable. That should probably be specified like December 31st into Oh, sure. Cuz 12:15 is no longer December 31st. So events which take place which begin on December 31st at 10 a.m. at 10 a.m.

shall begin no earlier than 10 a.m. and shall end no and the amplified sound. Oh, we got to start this over. amplified sound. Okay. So, read that again, please. I think so. [laughter] Any New Year Eve event. So, we need to say any event beginning on December 31st rather than any New Year's Eve event because you can just call anything a New Year's Eve event.

I But I the tying the date to the time. So, shall be limited to 10:00 a.m. on December 31st and end and music shall end at 12:15 a.m. on January 1st and shall end by 1:00 a.m. on January 1st. Okay. Instead of saying the same music say amplified sound or amplified sound. Yes. Yeah. I was just going to ask that too because you saying any music amplified music. Yeah. So amplified sound stops at 12 15 a.m. on January 1st.

So any event beginning on December 31st may use amplified sound between the hours of 10:00 a.m. on December 31st and 12:15 a.m. on January 1st. Any such event must end by 1:00 a.m. on January 1st. Yes. Do we have a second? Second. [laughter] All in favor of amending to uh get the New Year's Eve times correct say I. Any objections? All right. Seeing none. Is there anything else that What about what about limiting guest occupancy to

Oh, yeah. We could do that. Yeah. So, I'm under the impression that with the building codes the way they are and the fire district down there, not very huge, but I don't know how much they put on occupancies, but I would think that if they've got a building, we don't what what if you have 251 guests. My gosh, we we already have legislation and regulations and why do we need to muddy the waters and put more uh to me 240 versus 260 on the guest list is is nothing. We already have this code that says we cannot go over they can't go over 250 and

they're going to make it happen anyway because the state and the building codes and the county codes say they can't have more than 384. Well, they said 283 in the event space. So, that's not much more than 250 anyway. That's the caterers coming in. That's people, you know, out and about. We already have that. We have codes. I I don't know. That's just my opinion is I don't think we limit a max occupancy on the guest list because what does that do for us? So then you say, well, I did have 250 guests. I have also have 55 volunteers. Now I'm at 30 305. That's a good point. So I just don't know that that's worth it for us when we already as a building code. There should be an occupancy sign 80.

Sure. Absolutely. So I I just right to me I just I I think we're money in the water. Can I request there was a gentleman I believe it was I can't remember your name. I'm so sorry. And I I think he had a list of conditions that he wanted. Can we see those? I'm not saying we're going to put them in, but can we see them? He had them written down. Do Do you guys have them? They were on the computer here. Yeah, that's what I was saying. Can Can we put those presumably? Yeah. They'll have to do it from the back. Yeah. Okay. I just want to remember what they were. You need me to show that?

I think they I think they can do it in the back. We're just waiting for them to do it. Uh it's going to be one of the public comment presentations. Perfect. Oops. Oops. Back to the other one. Go back to the last one. Okay. Back. Okay. So, we talked about number one. We said that's not going to work.

Uh, number two, we've already got that's already that's already in there. Uh, number three, we talked about and we decided that that wasn't going to work because it wasn't specific enough. Um, pave the parking lot. We talked about it. Type three buffer. What is the difference between a type two and a type three buffer? Okay. So, a type two buffer is typically between residential and commercial and includes vegetation. A type three buffer is typically for long industrial properties. It includes vegetation and a fence,

but we've already said that we need vegetation and a fence on the northern side. So, that's pretty much already being done. Uh what's what's suggested by staff was a fence along the edge of the parking lot to cut off the the parking the car lights, which is a little bit different. It it's not if it were um a type three landscape buffer, it would be pushed all the way to the property line. to extend all the way along the property line. But, uh, what we had suggested was a fence along the edge of the parking lot just to cut off the lights and then vegetation behind that. So, it's it's kind of a distinction without a difference. It's a matter of whether the fence is in front of or behind the trees.

Yeah. I mean, we weren't suggesting doing a fence all the way along the entire property line. We were doing it for specifically to cut off the headlights there along the edge of the parking lot. Well, it sounds like that's what they're looking for. They're saying to block vision, so that's that's already being being covered. Okay. Uh extend the fence along the parking lot 500 ft long enough to block the view of the parking lot and the event center. I don't know. That's a pretty big expense. And there's already trees. We we've got the the northern side of the proposed parking lot and that's where most of the impact is going to come from. And there's already trees there too that are blocking vision.

Okay. contain music to inside the event center. No music on outside deck. I mean, I understand the desire for that. We've already taken Yeah, we've already made the timing go back to 9:00 p.m. So, I think that that's a good compromise. Agree. So, if you did the type three, you'd have to cut down trees on the property line. No, I would What I would do is just rather than do a type three landscape buffer, but no, what they're asking for is type three. So, if they did it, you would have to cut trees down on the property line. Um, yeah, because you not enough room between the parking lot and the property line. They would have to cut some trees down.

Yeah. You know what? Technically, the code doesn't say whether you put the fence on the inside landscape buffer or the outside. I've seen it both ways, so I don't know. Um, if you put the fence, a new fence along the property line, I think yes, you'd have to cut down some trees along that property line. But who's to say you can't pull that fence off the property line? Okay. It sounds like there's not much difference anyway between what they're already doing and a type three. I mean, the the only difference is the length of the fence really, right? Do do I have that?

I mean, possibly. Usually the buffer is long enough to block the to buffer the view of the new development. I can't tell you what that distance is off the top of my head, though. Okay. But it's pretty similar to what they've already got. There's not a not a giant, right? The idea is that if a car is driving north in the parking lot that some there's the fence there that blocks the headlight from going into their property. But that's already I mean you've already got that as a condition so that's why we just have the type two which is just trees no fence. Okay. Is there anything we're forgetting?

I'm I'm I'm looking at these minutes by the way. I've been reading the minutes from last time this whole time to make sure that anything that was said last time we're addressing. I'm not seeing anything that we're missing. I mean we talked about water sprinklers but that was already addressed in building codes. All right, I think we've addressed any further discussion on this cup. Not I'll seek a motion to approve. Do we have a second? Is that Is that what is that motion subject to the conditions presented by staff as amended?

Yes. seek a motion to approve CUP 2510 with the amended conditions as presented. Go ahead. Second. Motion. Second. All right, we'll uh run a roll call here. Miss Kushner, how do you vote? Yes. Miss Bar? Yes. Mr. Neiler? Yes. Mr. Quint? Yes. Miss Omero? Yes. Mr. Baker? Yes, Mr. Ellis. Yes. And I vote yes. Motion passes.

All right. That was a long one. Two months in a row. Now, at this time, we'll uh we did approve the uh minutes in October, but uh I'm under the impression that there uh was a small typo in it. So, just for transparency, we're going to um repass the uh minutes for October 15th. So, if uh those are approved, we'll seek a motion. So, moved. Second. A motion and a second. All in favor of approving October 15th minutes as presented, say I. Any objections? All right. Uh next on the uh agenda is approval of the minutes from December 17th meeting. Um do we have a motion to approve those?

Motion. Second and a second. All in favor of approving December 17th minutes as presented, say I. I. Any objections? All right. Uh, seeing none, moving on to other business. Planning and zoning division updates.

I'd like to welcome this evening Denise Amara as a new planning zoning commissioner. And as well, we have Joe Quinn who was here last time. But so now we have eight of the 10 planning zoning commission commissioner positions filled. And so we're we're getting closer, but we we've now have, you know, two open positions. If you know of anyone who would be interested in serving, they can contact the county executive's office, and that would be great. Also, uh like to welcome one of our newest planners uh here today, Jamaica Whitehead to my right. And also uh this evening stepping in is Stefan Tomlinson as well. or legal staff.

What What district are the two open positions? Are they uh county council district specific? Yes, they are. And um I can email all of you which the districts are. I just can't remember off the top of my head. I'm sorry. Robert, I have a question. Yes. Um, what's the status of the application last month at So on like on Boeing Hills, the the church that's not a church in the gym, right?

Um, what's the status of that application? Okay. So, the applicants at that meeting withdrew their application for reszoning. Subsequently, they have submitted an application to us for a conditional use permit in the single family residential zoning district for a private club and private athletic club. So, that application should be going at the February, is that right? Planning zoning commission meeting. Yeah. assuming they have all their docu. It's a assuming it's a complete application. So, there's some work that they still have to do.

Yeah. You know, we re carefully reviewed whether or not it would be um applicable not applicable um would be um eligible to apply for a conditional use permit and we did extensive research on conditional use permits on private membership clubs back to 1959 over the years. also our definition of private membership club we feel it's eligible at the same time I have to acknowledge that we've received a series of um a series of reports from neighbors that there's ongoing activity here for these private events we've sent them letters we've talked to them in person we've tal sent them emails most recently we met with them one on- one and just as of yesterday I think we received a message from them that they would be stopping all of those events and doing them elsewhere. And so we've we've cautioned them that they should not be undertaking these events until [snorts] they re or unless they receive approval.

Thank you. Anything else? Yeah. Any update on the master plan? When the next time the we're going to see something? Yes. So for the the master plan uh as of this week uh we have a draft uh master plan for under internal review. We have a future land use map draft and uh thirdare plan we're finalizing. So, we have we're getting close to a complete packet that we'll be sending to the uh master plan steering committee and soon and we hope to be holding a meeting soon and have an entire package of all the all the documents.

Anything else come before the group? Motion to adjurnn. Second motion and a second. All in favor say I. I. I. Any objections? Meeting adjourned. On Zen, [laughter] you got outvoted, buddy.