Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

It's a bad place to go hotel.

All right. So, do I start? Um, I open the regular planning commission meeting Wednesday, February 18, 2026 in the city hall community room. Welcome. Demer, Meridian here, Moss here, Newman here. Paul here, Robson. Robson. Okay, I'm looking for approval of the January 21 minutes.

Anybody have any comments, questions, corrections? I'll take a second. Second. Okay. Crber, make the motion. Carol seconded. All in favor? I. The motion passes unanimously. Now the January 29th special meeting. On the January.

Oh, as was Reg Smith. Say it again. as was Reg Smith. So, the two of them will need to be listed under absent

potential correction. He's there with Juliet and David audience and I think you asked us in comments and they said they thought he would have Is this one you feel like that needs to be in Can we or J? Yes. You can put them under under others. Oh, put their names in. But what about the comments?

They said they were good with everything until they thought. Do you know what their first names were? Uh David Mintosh with MC. Okay, perfect. Thank you.

So, we have a motion to approve with both corrections. Albert Moss makes the motion. Carol second says all in favor of these minutes I passes. All right, moving on. Um, public comment. Do you have any public comment? Uh that's not on the agenda. Do you have anything anybody online?

Okay, we will move on to a public hearing. This is for case number 58-26 special condition use request for former Leo's lounge conversion to construct a 4unit co living space in the lower level of the building. Mike is here to answer questions. So, do you want to just give a quick summary and Yeah, you do a quick one and then I'll open the

Okay, I'll give you a quick summary. The owner, Mike, is representing the owner of 434 East Mitchell Street, which is the former Leo's Lounge. They're looking for a special conditional use to construct a co-l livingiving unit with four bedrooms in the lower level. Uh that's below grade per the new ordinance that was uh worked on by the planning commission and approved by city council relative to article uh 9 section 901 appendix A which uh allows for below grade uses in the central business district. A co-living unit is allowed as a special conditional use and that's the purpose of the public hearing. Okay. Then did you want to say anything?

Yeah, just to explain what it is. It's a the intention of the the space is um workforce housing. It's um four units, four independent bedrooms with their own baths and closets. And then they share a common kitchen, living, dining, uh laundry facility. Um it's in the lower lower level of the building. Um but we're going to get right into the common living space via a lightwell. Um in the south side of the building was the space between the back of the building and the attic. Um that particular building has um just under 15 ft between the building and the and property line of the alley. So we got room to uh do a nice light well back there and get get some light into that into that space down there. Um but yeah, primarily the expectation is that the building owner um is going to be the one or the using it or their own tenant running the restaurant. I think that's mentioned really primarily with their own employees down there. Um and a place right there on property for those who who need it.

Okay. I will officially open the public hearing for case number five 58-26 special condition use request. Um there is no public so I close the public meeting

I know I know anybody want to make a comment the public hearing is your opportunity. All right. So, I must have started at 605 and I'm ending it at 606. My apologies.

We just completed the public hearing for item number 4 A and now we're going to old business number 5A. Case number 58-26 special edition used to cross for anything else 4314 Smith. So, um I open up to discussion for advice. I just had a couple questions um for Mike. Obviously, well, not obviously, but really exciting about this probably great project. Um a couple questions I had. So, how deep was that? Oh my goodness. Um sounds

I'm trying to think of it. Trying to do a math in my head. I'm going to say it's five to six feet. Okay. And there was a rail around Yeah, there's a rail around it. And was that a egress? Like a fire egress, too? Um it um it will serve um well, think about that for a minute. No, it won't because we have um the egress comes out in this case. Um you're allowed to have one exit out of um story below or two stories above grade. Okay. you can have one exit if you have fire suppression. And so this building be fully suppressed. And so when you come out of that um what is the unit by the where the laundry area is shut.

Um as soon as you enter that hallway, you're into what is considered the exit which is one hour rated space and then you're closed in one hour rated space until you come out the door upstairs. Okay. Um some of the obviously it's it's workforce housing and the units are kind of small. I I just had one quick comment about I was looking at the kitchen and wondering about cabinets and people and what they were going to do. It seemed pretty limited, but maybe there's more to the plan. Yeah, to be honest, we have we've laid that out for budget purposes as far as the the kitchen goes and that may change and we get into that. Um they may decide to add add some more storage into that.

The essress and egress these tenants would probably be coming in the elevator mostly. Is that what you think? Well, they'll come down the stairs. They'll put you in a new stair into the back of that building. Okay. So, when you come in that back hallway door off the alley, um there's a stair immediately going downstairs. Okay. And that stair uh will come down into um into a hallway which you'll be able to go into um [clears throat] into this space or you'll be able to go into the back the back door of the speaking. And I just had a question then about the the doors. I'm just kind of looking at the building and it looks like the what almost looks like the bigger more grand entrance center doors really goes to the upstairs.

Yeah, the main entrance to the building is off of Mitchell, right? Um that's that's really the the restaurant entrance is off Mitchell and then there's off of the same air lock that was in an entrance that goes downstairs into the speakers. Okay. Um the back entrance really is the secondary entrance into all spaces. So you can go uh into the back door of the restaurant, you go downstairs into the back door of the speed easy, or you can go downstairs and go into the resident area. So if you're coming into the restaurant, is it kind of what I say this door to the the left you can face the building, the smaller door? Yes. Yeah.

Possible everybody can see. And I just wonder with signage how you obviously identify that they've because the door in the center is more for residents, right? Yeah, that's residential door. Yeah. And and then the door to the left will be the will be the single entrance into the um into the assembly spaces. Okay, that's all the questions I have. Thank you. the the balconies. Um, so there I think he was 15 feet. Yeah. So in those balconies, do semi-trucks still go down that alley? Yeah. Mhm.

They'll be much higher than Well, they won't hang over the semi truck. Yeah. Well, it's it's they're higher and also they're um 10 ft off of the off the out um because they only I think five feet and it's almost 15 ft to the to the out. Um so there's quite a bit of room there. What that area is going to be used for is um well there' be a light well back there. Uh there'll be free access ramp back there to come in that back door to get to the elevator. Um, and there'll be a set of stairs. Uh, and there's a privacy fence and there's another set of just a stoop, you know, that takes you into the into the back door of the kitchen and behind that window will be the back entrance

will be some dumpster totes. Okay. Can you point out the the one on the the door on the far left is

Yeah. So, this is [clears throat] this is the the entrance door we're talking about. So, you come in this door, you're into a hallway, and you can go uh back, go straight into the take a right, and you're into the back of the restaurant. Take a left. There's an elevator right there. As soon as you come into the door, you walk 10 ft. You go downstairs and that takes you to the back of the speak easy or to the restaurant or to the residential area. This door is into the back of the kitchen. This is just the back kitchen entrance. So, there's a set of stairs, just a little stoop back behind here um to come in that kitchen. And then behind this privacy fence, there's room for some dumpster totes and that sort of thing back in there. So, there's plenty of room to pull them out and get them up to where they need to be. And then this is that light well with the guard around it.

It does show in any one. Let's say there's a e-l into the light. Yeah, I don't think it has to be. Okay. Yeah, I don't think it needs to be trying to remember off top of my head. I don't think it has to be. I think I think maybe we called that out, but I don't think we we have to have it there. Yeah, it's a building code issue and I I don't think that's required. All right. It does show on your plan uh that it's a egress ladder out of light well. Yeah, it does show an egress window. Yeah, but I don't think we have to have that ultimate. If we have to have per building code, we will, but I don't believe that's required. So the bedrooms, they have no windows, correct?

And they have one, you know, egress. Mhm. But that's all they need. Yeah. Okay. Yep. And and a lot of a lot of apartments that we do downtown um have landlock bedrooms. Um because you're often times you you're sandwiched between buildings and they're shotgun sort of units. And so, um, many of the bedrooms that we put in our even even our just regular apartments, uh, the bedrooms oftentimes don't have windows, um, because there's just not there's only, you know, in in a typical building there's there's, you know, 50 foot of width when you do two two units. So, you got 25 ft, right? And it goes 100 feet that way, right? And uh,

and so it's it's um, most of the bedrooms in downtown don't have windows because they're landlocked between other buildings. So, do you This is just curiosity. Has nothing to do with But do you do special kinds of lighting? No, not really. Not really. No, it's it's typical lighting. Um if we're uh if we're on an upper floor, um then yeah, you can do some things where you can you can do some light tubes and that sort of thing and bring them down in there and get some lighting. But no, for the most part, you don't do any special lighting. Um it's um it's it's typical lighting in the in those areas of bedrooms and bathrooms that don't have windows. And then, you know, they uh you just put as much light as you can into the common living spaces.

But yeah, the building code uh doesn't you have to have a window and a bedroom um if you don't have fire suppression, right? Um which includes sprinklers. Yes. Yes. And then the the hourong wall. Yes. You have to have fire suppression. Then you got to have certain rated exits and that sort of thing in order to do that. Okay. So, can you go to the um the front of it and then explain the doors on the front? Yeah. So, this this is the existing um entrance that's there now. And so, that that doorway uh will continue to go in and go upstairs and that'll be access to the apartments upstairs. There's four apartments upstairs. So, that'll remain a residential entrance.

So, that'll be closed off. So, when you're in the restaurant, you don't see people coming and going out of that door. Uh no. Okay. No. And then when you're in here, Yeah. there's a there's a wall here and so you come in here and there's an air lock. Um, and you go straight through into the into the restaurant. Off of that area kind of behind here, if you will, there's another door that goes into the speak easyy. Um, an unmarked door that goes to that's how you access the stairs down. Yes. For those in the no case. [laughter] So, [clears throat] there won't be a an elevator if people will have to know that they have to go to the back if they want to use

if they want to use the elevator. Well, now they actually I mean they can go through here and get to the elevator. Okay. So, for instance, if if um if you wanted to use if you wanted to go downstairs um you [clears throat] can you can when the restaurant's open, you can go through. Okay. When the restaurant's not open, then you got to come in the back to use the elevator. Okay. So, I guess what is the speak easy using again? Just exactly what's the use or what isn't? Well, it's a speak easy. It's it's purely a cocktail. Um they are talking about having some small plate service down there out of the same kitchen upstairs. It won't have its own kitchen.

Um it'll as long as it's operated by the same owner uh you same restaurant tour then the kitchen upstairs will be used um for small plate service downstairs. Um but that's it's really a cocktail lounge allegedly. Is there go ahead is there a someone already be the restaurant tour? Yeah, sitting behind you here. [laughter] I wasn't sure if it was

Yeah. Yep. Um so yeah, but yeah, the speak easy is and and what what we're doing is um which is kind of fun. has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but they take the took the old Leo's uh bar, which is a, you know, prohibition era bar and we moved it downstairs. And so that will be sort of the theme of that bar downstairs will be sort of, you know, designed and and uh focused around that old bar. And then upstairs when the restaurant's done, it'll get it'll get a new bar. Bob,

um, yeah, just a few things. Um, number one, regarding the egress window and and that, um, whether or not it's required by code, I would strongly encourage one be put in, um, if there's a fire in the in the living area, the kitchen area, um, that's a long way to go up and around to get out to that side there. So, I'd strongly encourage that be done. Okay. According to here, um, sound dampening between the, um, apartments or not apartments, the sleep spaces and speak easy. I know you knew it as a as a firewall, but is there extraing?

Yeah. So, the wall will be built um with um well, it'll be it'll be thicker wall than what we would normally do between spaces. It's uh it's filled with um uh silos insulation. um it receives a metal RC channel uh to take to to knock down vibrational noise and then it gets um the layer probably two layers of drywall on the outside of that. Um so it gets it gets a lot um in terms of the the sound separation. It'll be um we're going to do we'll do more than just what the firewall wire just for the sound reason. And the same will be true for the ceilings. The ceilings will all be filled with um with cellos. Same thing. They receive a metal channel and and 58 drywall.

Okay. I've been in speak easys and they are not speak easys. They are speak louds. Yeah. And and the same will be true between the uh between the restaurant and the second floor units. So that ceiling will all be um drywall with a metal channel with you know filled with insulation and to knock the sound transfer down between the restaurant units upstairs. Obviously then these residents down below kind of know the layout and what's you know what it is. Yeah, they know. So the other thing I have is um what what type of um egress security will there be in place for the residents to get in and out of the building? I'm assuming it's through the back door um for 24-hour access.

[clears throat] You know, it's something that we haven't other than keyed entries. We haven't we haven't got in that because their unit the back door will be keyed and it'll be locked during off hours open during business hours and then their unit itself locks off um to get off to get out of that hallway and get to their unit. There's there's another set of doors, washer, dryer

to get in. So, they have their own security from their space even into the hallway. Um and so the uh there'll be some discussion about whether or not we want to do any sort of um card access um for the elevator in order to be able to go to the second floor because that elevator is going to be used by residents and it's going to be used by restaurant users.

And so if if we decide we don't want restaurant users going to the second floor, even though it's not going to take them into a unit, it's going to dump into a hallway. um we might make it make the choice that either you got to punch in a code or a or um have a have a pass card uh key card to go up or activate the elevator to go upstairs. And again um I would encourage if you're going to the extent of cards with the elevator I would encourage cards into the sleeping area just so that guests don't accidentally find themselves I mean speak easy guests or restaurant tours or whatever don't find themselves accessing the the sleep areas. Yeah. So okay, thank you. Any other questions or comments?

Do you envision some kind of security s camera system or setup inside or

Yeah, I restaurant speak easy pretty much as we standard. Y um I see you don't have a roof plan but in the elevations I see something mechanical on the rooftops and there is not a existing parapit on the left side of the building. There's no parapit factor. There's one on the front uh but there's not one on the back. Yeah, there'll be a couple of air handling units up there uh or the um um assembly spaces. one for the first floor, one for the lower level. There'll be um some small condensers uh for the um residential units, and then there'll be a makeup air unit um for the for the restaurant for the kitchen.

Does that include the basement? What's that? The basement living space. The um that that will have the smaller condenser will be for that for that space. Okay. The makeup air is really just to make up for the exhaust hood in the kitchen. There there it's an interconnected unit that when you turn on that hood because it draws so much air um makeup air unit is is pulling in air um tempering it and then pumping it into into that space to make up for the air being exhausted. It's an entire roof existing roof pitched to the alley then go back.

It all features to the back. This question is probably more for John and Lisa, but when you were to do the plans and that there is makeup air for the sleeping areas and that all of that is we don't well we don't get into the mechanical code but we did a couple of weeks ago have a preconstruction meeting and EMTT County Building was here and they're the ones doing the review on on the mechanical and the building code requirements. Just want to make sure they have fresh air supply too. Any more discussion? I have a question on the potential motion. Okay. Just a clarification.

We're really only talking about the yellow. Yeah. You're just talking about the in this space. And so once you I think you know maybe in this co living space would add that because I could see some years from now saying wait they couldn't do any short-term rentals but I believe the upper floors would be able to do shortterm rentals because they're downtown and not on the first floor. Was that true? He said is that true? That's

true. And so I would hate to have somebody misinterpret this later just by putting the short-term rentals that are prohibited in a co living space or the lower level or the below grade space or something like that so that we don't get stuck combined. Yeah. Just add cool living space. Yeah. However you want to do them. Yeah. So are they not allowed by voting the lower spaces and then upper floors. Okay. Um Josh, should we go through the We should probably go through the standards.

Yeah. Confirm that they they met those. Thank you. So the first stand standard is a special land use type should be located on a site of adequate size and appropriate location to make it feasible for that particular to be compatible with surrounding uses. Well, it's it's it is where it is and it fits on the but that's building the environment downtown.

Right. Right. Right. The next one is special land use design and locating protect accommodate and enhance natural or man-made features of the site such as topography, vegetation, soils, water features, historic structures and scenic views. This the co- livingiving spaces have nothing to do with outside vegetation and whatnot. the special land use. So that's been the special land use shall be located on a site that accommodate on-site traffication and vehicle storage needs to use. This is the downtown business district which is exempt from all street parking zone. The special lanterns and its accessory uses and storage shall be located in the ranch on the site in the manner for adequate buffering and screening protective jet use of properties. The co-l livingiving units will not uh require bufferings and the scale, bulk, elevation, exterior materials and color of the building special design with character of surrounding land use. The uh co-l livingiving is part of the building and won't change exterior. The special land use shall not be located where due to use of particular equipment or storage for production of certain materials or emission waste products and the units are just residential and wouldn't admit hazardous waste. So um someone to make a motion. So um I would be happy to make a motion to approve this with conditions. John, do you feel otherwise the conditions as you stated should remain?

These are directly out of the ordinance.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, so then I can make a motion to approve uh with conditions. I'm moving to approve the special conditional use of 434 East Mitchell Street parcel 52-9-05-100-008. Use the lower level below average grade for a co-l livingiving unit consisting of four bedrooms subject to the following conditions. A is access to the residential living units shall be located on the side or rear of the principal building unless a separate door in the front facade provides access to the lower level and upper stories only. B is construction shall comply with the most recently adopted Michigan buildings. Electrical, mechanical, plumbing and fire codes for the city of Paskki and Emer County. C. No furniture is allowed outdoors unless it is incorporated into a screen patio or courtyard and is not visible to the general or public. D is refuge collection shall not be located in any public alley or public space and trash removal shall be the responsibility of the property owner of record and E was short-term rentals are prohibited in the lower living spaces I will add

you well but I guess it doesn't really matter that it's co- living doesn't matter all right made the motion Albert made Paul. Yeah. Moss. Yes. Newman. Since I'm involved in the federal historic preservation paths credit application for this project, I'm staying Robson. Hi Smith. Hi Demer. Hi Kroberg. Yes. Meridian.

Yes. Thank you. [clears throat] Okay, we're ready to move on to um new business case number 257-26 site plan review business office 315 West Mitchell Street impact building and renovations. We have Adam and yeah Verdican here to represent and Rick is the architect. So, we're gonna ask him to leave the room while we deliberate this.

Can't have him have me undo.

Thank you intro.

Yeah, the uh applicant has submitted a site plan and some elevations to reuse a existing building. uh that's located has an address off of West Mitchell, but it's also located on Madison Street. Uh like the the buildings on that block, they both you have one set of buildings. They have frontage on both Mitchell and Madison. They're proposing to use the building for their construction and design office. Uh the site plan can accommodate four on street parking spaces. They share a access with the adjacent property to the uh to the uh east. So they share a common curb cut on both Mitchell and on Madison. They are proposing two small additions onto the side of the building. uh reorganizing the front on the Madison for a 8 ADA ramp, constructing a new concrete sidewalk, and adding two parking spaces in the front of the existing building, which used to be a house. Uh the we went through the site plan review criteria. There's a few things that we need to talk to the owner about or the applicant about relevant to some of the determinations or some of the requirements uh on the plan. Uh the the we'll go through some of the site standards. Uh the the buildings existing as I mentioned there the proposed site plan they're showing two parking spaces to be constructed in the rear of the lot which is on Madison across the street from these buildings that front on Mitchell and Madison. The buildings on

the other side of Madison on the south south are primarily single family smaller houses with typical front yards. However, some of the the the properties on the north side of Madison, which this is one, some of them are using the uh the rear or the front yard or how we ever want to term it, for for parking. The there was no landscaping or uh plan that was submitted with the site plan. Most of the lot is pvious. Um, however, there are some areas, as you could see in the picture on the front of the staff review, there was a front yard on the Madison side of the building. The way that the parking lot is being proposed now on the Mitchell side, there is some green space on the on the west side of the parking area adjacent to the the building that's adjacent to this one, but there was no no formal landscaping plan submitted. Uh there was lighting fixtures that were noted on the elevation, but nothing uh in particular that specifically enough that we could determine that they're night dark sky compliant. They have to be shielded pointing downward. There was no model that was incorporated with with the drawings uh relative to how they're going to address the lighting. Uh the parking uh they're provide they're required to have five. They're providing for the planning commission does have the ability to approve one on street parking stall which there are a number of uh on street parking stalls already painted along Madison Street. We don't see it as a problem but the planning commission needs to specifically approve that. There are sidewalks both along West Mitchell and Madison. Signage was not

included in the package. signage has to be reviewed uh by the zoning administrator separately. Uh there was no trash storage identified if any. This is an office that may not have outdoor storage trash storage. It may just be a container inside, but we need to understand what that is, if there's going to be any. And under the utilities, we had the plan reviewed by the uh city engineer and they're recommending to manage storm water uh that there be a some perforated pipe under the parking areas to kind of collect the storm water uh to where then it gets to a point where it would overflow into the W West Mitchell Street MD dot storm sewer uh when it's full. So, they're they're looking for some onsite storm drainage uh uh as part of the uh as part of the project. Uh items to discuss, landscaping if any, lighting, signage, trash, utilities in terms of the storm water that's being recommended by the city engineer. And the planning commission needs to uh if you're going to approve this site plan, you need to consider providing or allowing them to use one on street parking space to meet their five minimum. So that's kind of an overview of the site plan.

Okay. Thank you. Did you want to have any remedies? Um that's a lot to address. You don't you don't need to say my question was normally we do have the architect with the project here. Did Rick come in the room and answer any questions uh as an architect and then leave. He clearly can't vote. He can't I but you know I I would I would tend to be conservative and say not because it he has a conflict of interest in this. I understand it

which but we have the uh the owner here that should be able to answer some of those questions man I would address any of those questions yeah let's let the owner so why don't you go ahead start you got questions you can ask Adam okay well let me go through a few so one of the question that comes up is your landscaping question there's a few small areas um do you have any proposal to that regard or how should how do you think we should handle that?

Well, you know what? This is something I mean this is an interesting case. Lisa's going to bring the site plan up. You've got if you take a look at the first page of the technical memo I took I have a picture from Google Street View. You can kind of see that right now on the Madison side. You've got you got some landscaping, some green space. There is a car parked on the front lawn. So people are currently using the the area for parking. They're reorganizing the parking. Instead of parking like they are, they're going to park, you know, parallel to Madison.

Uh but there are houses across the street. And I was I I don't know if there's even enough room to try to put some screening around the parking lot just to buffer it a little bit from the residential neighbors across the street. That's that's the one. So, typically in a motion, we might if we gave a conditional approval, we might um allow the zoning administrator to review and approve landscape. Yeah. And like I said, dimensionally because they're much dimensionally they're putting up a barrier free rank. Yeah. And that's taking up space. So, they're they're pushing the parking closer to Madison. Uh it's just, you know, the people across the street in the single family are looking across and there's going to be parking right there,

right? And I'm just trying to want to make sure the planning commission understands that. Uh but I'm also aware that we're we're not talking about a a large lot that we're working with to begin with. Right. Um so we're not talking about a night use really. No, that's just daytime hours, right? So we don't have so much of a headlight. Yeah. issue and and I and I don't want what Cortez Flint has. Of course, they they bought the building after it was already already developed, right? But along their property line on Madison, they have like a a concrete brick wall, right? And I don't want that. That's too hard. That's too hard,

you know. So, I you know, I just wanted to point out about the landscaping, but I like I said, this is a small lot. You know, I don't know what what could be done. is the owner. Do you have any comments? That's typically what we might do. Have you work with the zoning administrator and come to some agreement with some landscape?

We've had some light uh discussion about that already. Um we do intend to soften the whole facade with uh landscaping on the back side of the uh ramp between the ramp and the building which would be located here. So the ramp comes up in front of the building. We want to put some landscaping here and then utilize that green space at the end of parking spot. Um, so there's very little space aside between the parking lot and the sidewalk. Uh, but I do feel like, you know, we want to introduce as much vegetation and some flowers and things like that. We want to be really attractive.

Would you do the same for the Mitchell Street, the two parking? you put the area that's not parking and this parking almost runs right into that building. Um but we do intend to have about a 4 foot area that really dresses up this entrance. I mean that's our main um that's our main presentation. So we'd like to have uh landscaping along the entire front of that building. John, you brought up lighting and typically we might um if we don't have the plan specify that it's dark sky compliant and that it would be have to be reviewed and approved by the zoning administr.

Yeah. Right now the the current ordinance says it's got to be shield and it's got to point down. So, but we didn't there was no model light fixture that was included with the plan. So that's why we specified it's got to be dark dark sky compliant. I do understand that and we tend to put in client ID. And you think uh do you envision some type of signage eventually? Uh yes. Yeah. So I don't know that we'll have signing on the building, but wanted to put something near the parking spot. Sign. A sign. Yeah. So you're talking about a monument,

an inound sign that can face the parking most likely. So, but uh still working with Rick on how to develop a sign that's appropriate and that that also has to go with the zoning administrator. Yes. Right. And the trash issue on your application. You said you check or said something about portable. Um we had this question about there was no nothing on the plan that showed trash, right? Yeah. The question is where is it going to go? Is it handled internally or externally?

So, where is it going to go? Um, I guess I'm unfamiliar with the requirement. Uh, we've got like a GFL rolling that we inherited with the building. Um, so, um, it it has to be screened if it's outside. Okay. I guess and that would be u probably a form of landscaping. Okay. So, is that your plan is to have it outside or is there plan to have it inside? Uh plan would be to have it in outside as a like a rolling thing and we would probably screen it and put it off the either the corner of this building corner of that build.

Great. I was thinking that the trash pickup won't be out of Mitchell Street. So that and you had mentioned you got a wheel the building came with a wheeled trash receptacle. Yes. What's the dimensions on that? 96 gallons the standard the standard the standard plastic four feet tall and 30 so putting that out by the curb someone the builder would have assuming that would be recycle also recycle container yes okay

so if those live outside those screen the same vegetation trying to save you some screening. Keep them inside so you need to put them out. I don't think we'll have a lot of weekly trash, but yeah. So, Rich, um I'm a little confused about is the address or the front of the building actually on Mitchell? Yes, that is a legal address. Okay. Is there a driveway that comes off of Mitchell? Yes. When people come,

so that is the representation of the curb cut from the property line all the way to there. Okay. Um we intend to invite our customers to come to the Madison side. Um so that'll be our front entrance and then this will be where we park and come in uh up these stairs to the back entrance. My other question was um will there be any construction equipment on this side? Absolutely not. Nope. Well, and once construction is complete, they're so uh obviously in use.

So from the the drawings, it looks like you're going to be are you changing your lines at all or are you a little bit keeping the existing infl? No changes in height. Uh we've added a dormer to one side and then continued this this gable height which is already existing. We're bringing that out 7 foot6 forward Mitchell and the opposite side we're doing the same thing six feet out forward Madison. And then this one right here is is a new item that and that ridge line would be the same as the ridge line going north south.

Yes. And it's already like that. That'll be an issue with you know is this is this what you would see if you're looking standing at digital street looking at it. Correct. So it's much like I mean kind of rep it's representative of what's there currently. We're just banning it and improving it. Very huge improvement. going to see have already begun demolition and all of that. Yes,

Jen, I have a question. You present a table or uh page two zoning code information. It says code 205. Um is that we don't have to deal with that? No. Yeah. It's existing building. Yeah. Any more discussion? I had one more question. Okay. Unless I miss something. That side set back zero ft. I don't understand that. We zone B3 and so that business district does not have a side setback.

Okay. But there is some distance between the property line. There's approximately two feet from the property line and six feet from the adjacent building that's catty climate. Is Cory's right next to you or is there um the building that used to be like the tattoo? There's couple

and parking. Um there are parking spots on that street. Can you bring up Google? Sure. You there's actually quite a few. I would almost prefer having a couple used on site on the street and then but we're thous%. Yeah. That's it. I mean, not under the current code, but doesn't break out. No. No. That's a problem and any sidewalk.

So, just something to to break that up a little bit rather than coming out. Yeah, we would prefer that as well. Whatever it might be, I think that'll benefit us as well as the neighbors. Um,

as far as snow removal, like it was kind of like connected loss a lot to the east, like is it taken care of? Like where does it go? Uh so currently the snow has been being pushed uh around the front of the building up against the adjacent to the west that that brick area and um we have contracted with the site removal the comfort snow that does that to remove that snow by it and dump truck so periodically. So okay we hadn't done that yet since we've not been very active at the space but That will be our intent is to load the snow out.

Okay. That's This is the Madison Street if Lisa goes to the other way. You can see all the see the parking base through here. Yeah. There's a number of parking spaces that are already on the street that are already signed. You know, the way our ordinance is set up, we're only allowed to grant one. It would be nice if you could grant more than one. Then that way that one parking space could be removed and you could have that more of a finance. That would be nice. Especially for that area. Especially for that area because you can see across the street you've got single family homes across the street. Oh, really? I can't do anything with that. No, I don't think so. Well, no, because I don't have my book with me. Um,

I believe it's 20%. It's 20%. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It would be one. Yes. I'm sorry. Right. So, we have rewritten the parking stuff if I remember right going forward. Yes. So, in the future, would you be open when we can allow for more parking on the road? Would you be willing to give up that one parking space in the front? Would you be open to things and get that landscape? Um, well, that's a Yeah, it's an impossible question, I guess. Yeah. Are you gonna That's going to be paved. Yeah. Got it. Sorry.

No, I I think at that point in time too it' be too disruptive. Yeah. I think you're asking when he left the city, ripped it out, right? I think that's going to happen. It's just that's a tight area and it's probably the least nice. Although you improving your building, there's a building across the street that's beautifully improved. That's helping. Yes. Yeah. So, uh, things we've discussed that don't prevent snow, uh, removal is like planter boxes. So, we do want to have some screening along there. So, we had removable planter boxes that could live there all summer long. And they could [clears throat] easily fit between our parking and the sidewalk. Um, but then in the winter, they could be removed.

So, we have ample snow removal without any interruption. How how busy is parking in that street? Is it I know now I know in the summertime it would be an issue but when you have to go to one side parking but that's done during the day. Yeah. Oh right. No, there's there you know there's nice parking bays already installed with the bumpouts. I mean it's too bad we can't use them. And it appears like the residential across the street, they mainly have driveways. They have one. They have driveways themselves. So, yeah.

Okay. All right. Uh I'll entertain a motion. Should we So, we need to go through the site. Go through. No, you don't have to go through it. I mean, what we we narrowed down is right. Trash area and they need to show that on the plants got to be screened. Yeah. They have to provide a landscaping and signage planned Lisa for for approval. Uh lighting and then they have to uh the lighting and then they have to handle the they have to get with Matt Matt and and Jason the engineers uh regarding the utilities.

Yeah. So L16 there's six items I can make it try. Okay. So it would be a motion of approve of condition to conclude the site number of 350 north funds that is question 52-9-06-127-07055 to modified the existing building for use of building a business office to include two small additions to the existing building and construction of four off- streetet parking spaces per the site plan dated 1212 2025 with the following conditions. Um so

you know if you go to the observations that kind of Yeah. John can help me. So condition one would be landscaping uh to be reprove reviewed and approved by the zoning administrator. Condition two would that be the lighting needs to be shielded and down lit and then reviewed and approved by the zoning administrator. You don't want to include dark sky compliance. include dark.

You want me to include that? I said no. It should be dark sky compliant, shielded and down and reviewed and approved by the zoning administrator for the calcul for parking. Um the condition would be that way that we would allow one on street site to be allowed to count for required parking. for signage that would be reviewed by the zoning administrator. Condition five, trash containers would need to be screened uh and that would be reviewed. The screening would be reviewed and approved by the zoning administrator.

You want to add recycling to that? So, containers and recyclable containers need to be screened and reviewed and approved by the zoning administrator. Condition six would be uh John, how to word this correctly? The utility the storm water to be approved by the city engineer. Okay. Storm water to be approved by the city engineer. So, that would be the six conditions. supported. Oh, you support it. Okay. Still writing. All right. The motion [clears throat] supported. Any more discussion? Roll call.

Paul, yes. Burmer, yes. Kroberg, yes. Meridian, yes. Moss, Robson, Smith, yes. Good luck. Nothing happen. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, reference. [clears throat] All right. So, we're moving on to the 2025 to 2026 planning commission annual report.

It looked good to me. Does anybody have any

comments questions? I just have some observations there. It looks like there's less activity in 25 compared to 24 as far as numbers eating that because there's less going on, you know, the less there because there less people trying to pick things up or sell these things down. I just wanted you know when you look at uh the people on page four where every public there's less some are significant and some are not but just you know what what is your sense of why you have been less

you know are you seeing less applicants and that type of thing we Sorry. Are you talking about for you're talking about yourself and about why? Oh, zoning permit I Yeah, I have I have no So, the average um over a 5year period prior to 2024 was 45 zoning permits per year. So, we're still higher than what we used to be. Sorry, I was trying to find it on here. So, um yeah. So, yes. Then the ADU that is that all the way through process we have ADU completely approved or the ADU yeah there was just one yes

so is it um it would they were converting an existing structure oh I guess the answer to the question that is deleted do you feel staff wise We have the we're able to handle basically what's coming in and a reasonable man on it. Some days are better than others. [laughter] It es and flows. So I mean it's Yeah. I mean Yeah. for sub.

That's the sub area plan basically for the Bear River Creek area in the middle of the uh Ted. Can you you can point out word four? Ward four is kind of like between right in the middle of of the four is where which is where this Yeah. Right there. Yeah. It's that W where you have EMTT Street and you have Standish and all the redevelopment that's going on. It's to to do a because there's other parcels there that could be subject to redevelopment. Right. So it's kind of doing a more deeper dive in terms of doing more than just more than just Yeah. I don't want to deal with that.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the factory that's on Sheran and Buckley. Yeah, I think that out of all the city, that's the area that's going to see the most redevelopment. So, you just want to get ahead of it a little bit. Also, clearing in general. Clarin. Yeah. I think the big initiative that we pointed out because this goes to city council is two pri two two key priorities zoning code and signed ordinance. Those are the two key priorities for 2026.

That's it. What would you like to say John if someone asks the questions? When do you think the zoning ordinance will be well presentable to take out? I'm thinking [clears throat] the we have to get through the this part of it with with the or with the district.

Once we determine the number of zoning districts that we agree on, then the zoning committee will get back together to allocate the permitted uses and the uses by special conditional use. Once we get that done, we're at a point where we could the planning commission could take a look at one f a final draft and then the recommendation would be then we would send it to the city attorney. So, do we have more of a public process too? Probably. Yeah, we have to have public process. Yeah. But I mean like a open house or something or open house once we get the draft ready. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I'm thinking depends on our discussion tonight, but I'm hoping that we can get something in front of council by June because we got every article done except for two, three in the definition section. That's it. Okay. Those are [laughter] what's that? Those are happy. Yeah. All right. And do we need to um need to approve it and recommend that it's for it is the city council. I'll make a motion to recommend this motion to oppose this city council and Caroline seconds. All in favor?

Passes unanimous. Um now we move on to zoning ordinance that's update u proposed discussion on zing districts.

I think the easiest way to start the discussion would be to take a look at page one of the agenda memo. This kind of summarizes what I thought was the discussion that we had at our last meeting was that I looked at the existing districts and then we looked at proposed districts on the existing districts. The first one is the R1 and we determined that was more of a of a suburban residential quality and that should have its own designation. Then there was agreement that R2 and R3 are pretty similar. There's really not a lot of differentiation between lot sizes, how the neighborhoods are built. So that that would be a residential neighborhood classification. And on the map, you can see that as a the darker yellow. So those are the areas that used to be R2 and R3. Uh the suburban I'll get up to present. I'll see it. Yeah, there's probably the suburban a little hard to see then, but yeah, the suburban areas

are up here. The [clears throat] lightest yellow the lightest yellow up here. Yeah. And then there's over here and then up on the by the up the Curtis Park basically. Yeah. Yeah. Curtis Park. And then there's a little swatch over here. with all the green space. The uh the the R2 and R3 districts are primarily have always been on on the east side of the uh of the community.

So that's this darker yellow. The RM U one which is still multifamily is this darker brown color and you can see a couple of locations for that. And then the R2, RM2, which was primarily everything on this side of town. Remember we talked about reducing that from multiple family to go back to single family, but recognizing we do have some small apartment complexes that are in that neighborhood. So I came up with the term residential flex. And then the description says that, you know, periodically there are some small like six, eight unit apartment buildings and duplexes that are in that neighborhood, but it still favors the single family versus the multiple family. And then

do you feel so I trying to get my brain around again the the new RM and RF how different? Are they was the old RM1 and two? RM1's mainly like apartment complexes, larger buildings. The uh the RM2 was was in this neighborhood over here, which were okay. You know, like you got over by Engles in Jackson, you've got that apartment building down on Jackson towards the school, you've got like maybe a 12 or 14 unit, but they're not really they're they kind of fit in with the neighborhood, but they're not that large. And that's kind of the difference.

Street. Then we the PC said we we need to have a business uh neighborhood business district which is uh I call it VN business neighborhood uh which is the area in this color which is the red. You has some along Mitchell and then you know some along the emtt corridor [clears throat] area and then quite a bit uh over by the uh uh well that's cor it's the pink it's this pink right here. This right here that right there. Yeah. The pink that's the B that's the old B1. Yeah.

The and red [clears throat] the business downtown is the old CBD which is the B2 district which is this burnt red color. Mhm.

Okay. And then all the rest of the commercial districts are the corridors which you have some up in this area along past and then along Mitchell and then down on on Charle Boy. Uh but for example, some of the business corridors, the downtown group, the downtown business area already has a downtown overlay in the ordinance, which is the design guideline. So that has an overlay. You would have a mixeduse overlay that would go down in these areas here where you currently have mixeduse developments. Some over here. And then to get around the area, we talked about viewsheds. The uh 31 court 131 corridor coming into town uh along Spring Street would have a viewshed overlay which would manage the heights. And that's kind of what the B2 B3

B3. Yeah, that's kind of what that does now. The the the B3A does. So we'd have a a viewshed overlay to control the height in those areas. So we we'd be able to collapse all of our business districts into three, neighborhood, downtown, and corridor, and then use a couple of overlays to manage specific uses or dimensional requirements. We keep the office service which is adjacent to the downtown. It's kind of that transition between the downtown and some of the adjacent residential districts which are actually pretty pretty nicely designed this. Which color is that again? It's right here. It's kind of kind of that bluish color.

Oh, there you can see it now. Oh, there it along here. I highly recommend you change that color to something more different because it at this level you can't see the difference. Maybe you can use more of those

the by the hospital. Yeah.

Oops. Sorry. And then we have two different two industrial areas. I1 and I2 consolidated those into one industrial district. The city really doesn't have heavy industrial anymore. The industrial that we do have is is along the Breek corridor. Some of that is primarily like contractors and paint stores and you know there's granite shop and they're not heavy like producing emissions like they used to. Right. Is there any way we can change that to um so that residential and apartment buildings a higher density residential could be there instead of the industrial?

Uh yeah, you can if is if if that's consistent with the master plan. I think it is. Okay. Yeah, certainly. Yeah, you can do the changes to the map. What we did is we we took the existing districts, showed how they would be proposed and then used the same boundaries to to show you what that right consolidation would look like without making any.

You can also take an industrial district, you know, and just in terms of uses state that it's an industrial district, but it also would allow for um more residential or multif family uh It's just that I think I think it's been the desire of the planning committee in all the years I've been on it that that area changed to residential right along the river take advantage of the beauty of that area. Yeah. And I I think based on the condition of the buildings and stuff, right, would be that that idea would be consistent both with the master plan and what's happening there organically anyway,

right? Like that's like that section of like from Sheridan on if you go down Clarion where the Salvation Army from Sheridan down to the Salvation Army those are all residential properties and the properties are so narrow anyway that there's no way any kind of real industrial use could right this would be an opportunity to change the zoning map as part of the the ordinance. So that's where you kind of have to get into the weeds a little bit. This is just existing to propose the same boundaries without making any dramatic changes. How different are the business neighborhood and the office surface? They were both kind of business abundant.

Yeah. You know, I I looked at that and I felt I looked at it and then I went and and and drove the office area and you know, if when you take a look at the office district that's adjacent to the downtown over here, it it you know, it's all lowcale offices, C, you know, CPAs, attorney's offices. They kind of it kind of gives you that almost that residential feel even though it's a professional office. I think upgrading it to a business and introducing more businesses in it would would change that transition area. I think it would change the character of those streets. So, I was kind of reluctant to do that. And if you don't have many, a lot of them are right around here, right?

They are tastefully done and I figured why mess with Yeah. What about over by the hospital? That that's something that we could take a look. Yeah. Well, that's Yeah, by the hospital right here. That's B1 currently ask and it makes sense but I was I was the same thing almost be a corner area but maybe it's better to have like you said because of the neighborhood it makes a better transition. Okay. I like that for the transition.

Industrial we just collapsed it down to one. We got rid of the P1 which was parking. The big thing that we included in here to give you an impression, anything that is publicly or quasi public, anything that's publicly owned or a owned by a nonprofit, a church, a a public school, private school, uh, by the county. Uh, they're all called all public quasi public and they're in green. So, you can see the when you look at the zoning map now, you can really see the extent of public property.

That's really helpful. you know, you can get a better context for all the a lot of it's open space and a lot of park system, but it gives you, you know, the high school. It it just shows you how much public property uh uses that there are in the community. Um what is that big green off? Well, Jenny between napkins. Yeah. What what quasi public space is that? That's a nature resource. Yeah. Okay. Uh and then we did we kept H1 which is the secondary hospital services up by up on the 31 over by Kilwins. Sorry it's not.

Yeah. Right up here that that lighter color that light blue which is the outpatient facility. Oh okay. And then the H2 which is the hospital campus shows up in dark blue like a purple blue. You can see it on the edge there. You can see it on the edge. Sorry, it's not wanting to go. Sorry. And then the last one is college, which is C, which is the property down here. So that's when you take a look at existing to the proposed district, that's how it maps out without making any changes to any of the properties yet.

Yeah, conceptually I I really like this approach. I think it's great way to reduce the the number of districts. You know, the way some of these duplicate zone districts came about was because there were special circumstances in some small neighborhoods, but combining them, but then doing the overlays, those thresh things that had been done by making different zoning districts, but now could be done with a with an overlay to me makes a lot of sense. And John, we will let you each of those will eventually have something like this.

Yeah, the dimensional requirements. that to me that's as important as more important than what can you do in this now that we've got it mapped out because it makes sense. Yeah. What you can do in each area. Yeah. Before you dive into that, Al, I thought it would if we got if we have an agreement on the districts and the zoning committee can start getting together and kind of putting the uh the pieces together so we can come back with a draft. So I Yeah, I like the categories we come up with. Um I suppose the question one question would be you mentioned you didn't change any boundaries. Um you know is there any sense that any boundaries should be changed in this?

Well I think based on the conversation that that Cynthia developed about you know you take a look at the community master plan and identified redevelopment sites along the Bear River where you had some existing or former industrial properties. that would be an opportunity to to start advancing that a little bit more formally by classifying those uh into a into one of into probably like a flex district or something else. Now, do you feel like we talked about some of there's some places in town where there's a lot of what was RM2 which really looks like like what used to be called single family, you know, just homes.

Yeah. Do you feel there would be any sense of changing some boundaries back to our residential neighborhood or do you feel like they're similar but just allow for some other things? I don't know. I think we could take a I think we could take a more detailed look uh uh we could take a more detailed look at the at the uh uh

let me try this again. Sorry, it's like only got half a screen for some reason. I've already got it. There we go. We can take a look in here. You know, we could take a deeper dive as a planning commission and and take a look at what really what what's going on in some of some of these blocks may be we may be able to convert to our residential neighborhood.

Yeah. But there are some that where you have existing multif family, you you may want to have that flexibility. Okay. But this is what it looks like when you convert the RM into the the neighborhood flex. It really changes the character of the community because it you it kind of if you look at the current map now, it just shows all this multiple family, right? And it and it's it doesn't exist, right? And that's a just a great place to get ownership. Yes. And we need we need household owners. Yeah. It's a place for people to have their first home.

So I I think the the pro what we could do procedurally is if we like the categories, then we start reconvening this the committee to start putting the permitted and the special uses together and the dimensional requirements. And then the next step would be once we got that flushed out, then we would take a look at the map and start making any proposed changes to the map relative to what's in the master plan or what the current conditions are. And then once we get that done, we're pretty much at a draft. I like that approach because I wondered about that just setting boundaries and then and then later the details of these districts or like you said get have the flush out some of the details of these districts and then what does a boundary need to move because now we know exactly what I'm talking about

talking about height um uses you know that makes sense

so I mean if you like the approach then I I can start working on the uh we already have the N historic neighborhood overlay is already done. The downtown overlays done in the current code. I can start working on the mixed use and on the over and the viewshed overlay and John the viewed overlay says preventing buildings from breaking horizon line that seems like conflict if people want to do something in that area. I mean, what would be wrong with just using what's currently in a B3A that it really is kind of an overlay for a very small area of 25 ft rather than if if you're going to do somebody want to put in an office building or whatever in that area. Now, I had to define what is my viewed and what is the horizon would it be just as easy to keep it has a current 25 ft instead of make it complex for the

Well, we can check. I think one of the things I was looking at is there could be some properties that may not impact viewershed that were were suppressing the height on it, right? Yeah. And I I do think the corner across from Woods where the old hotel that would be the area you you probably aren't in feeding Buch. Well, where the old hotel was burnt out, right? Yeah. I mean, that would that's a perfect location for maybe a threetory because it would it would fit in with

with with with the with with the roof lines that are already there. I think I haven't we haven't toyed with it yet, but I'm thinking that spatially with GIS we can create the viewshed corridors by by pinning different elevations like the historic downtown, the St. the the St. Francis steeple uh the boundary of the bay and then based on elevations have the have the GIS basically determine what areas are are really critical to protect. So John if you take this site where the hotel burned down on the highway up there that used to be two stories I think. Yeah.

Yeah. So if you I mean are you saying on one hand you could go a little higher because it doesn't block the deer of the bay. Right. Right. But on the other hand, I'm just thinking the people who live behind it, who look down towards the town and everything, they would have a different Well, they're going to have Yeah. They're going to have a different opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with the hotel gone. They already do have different, you know, but the but the other But the other part of that is you also have to balance the private property rights of the people that own the property by saying, well, you know, you you just you have to balance both, you know, still a business in court.

I could definitely place that next place more cottage court or the small little senior housing kinds of developments that that you show us that were one story. They're right near the right near some other, you know, um dup not duplex but um condos that are, you know, um they're up there by theater. that type of housing in there you keep on but and be rebuilding housing [clears throat] for ownership again. So we have to get into the uses, the permitted, the special, and then the dimensional requirements of it. Is that that is the business court?

So, you know, I [clears throat] we're going to have to start having to I know Cynthia's not going to like this. We're going to have to have start having the zoning committee meetings again. Maybe by the time we schedule, I'll have more energy. So, I I'll I'll get working on it and I'll get working on the materials for the first zoning committee, which will probably be in a couple weeks. Okay. I need some time to I wanted to get your consensus. Take your time. with no I think city council is getting some on city council are getting a little bit interested in terms of taking getting getting some feedback from the planning commission on

it hopefully Charlie's talking it up for us I'm hoping uh so that if that's a if you guys are comfortable with that then that's how I'll start putting it together yeah I think it's a great authority you want a motion No, we don't. Yeah, I very comfortable with Okay, go ahead start. All right. Uh, commissioner comments.

So, I I have one CIA and just kind of for John and Lisa. So, we did a site plan tonight and we had this um I guess it's on uh the one that was the house. We had we have a sheet of checkboxes and I was just looking at a few things and a few things jumped out at me. One was the landscaping. The guy didn't fill anything in, right?

Like whether he was going to do or not. And then I was always wondering about signage and there's nothing here about signage. Um there's a thing about lighting fixtures that that there have to be a graphic illustration of lighting fixtures that are freestanding or attached to the building. He checked that. he provided that but it wasn't to the extent we wanted. Um, and I've been somewhat aware that in the zoning ordinance, um, we've got this the standards for approval for this for this site.

But, um, we also have graphic illustration. What shall be there? And what it says what must be there in this um section is freestanding signs must be there. landscaping and fencing must be their lighting fixtures shown in shall be shown and labeled as the type and he type height of fixture. Um so we have these things that really in our current ordinance they say they must be there. They're not so much translated over to this. So I've always had this question sometimes we come and they don't have they typically don't have landscaping, they don't have lighting and they don't have signs but this thing kind of says they're supposed to. So, I just feel like we're now I'm trying to think what the new ordinance um we're writing.

Oh, the new ordinance has that two-page checklist, right? So, just until we get to that point or whatever that one, but as we deal with this one, should we should we be a little more robust in what we're requiring to bring it here, Lisa? Or we can certainly amend the application. Maybe this would need to like this doesn't even have signage and and yeah, we we can take a look at the checklist versus the ordinance and make sure they jive together. And if they don't check the boxes, um, well, there's a whole thing for staff confirmation we can do or not do that. So, I don't know how. I mean, it's this balance between wanting to let some stuff go forward and and allow some development of plans, but also

but also just trying to, you know, kind of have people show us what they're going to do. So, I, you know, I agree. So, I just want to point that out because we're questioning I haven't heard anything more from them. So, it's all interior demolition. So, [laughter] where is that moving to? Well, we don't know.

It's the old Lula Vita, the corner across from the hospital um on Mitchell Street. Oh, it was a hair salon. There was a little activity there.

I know. Yeah. Especially for pizza place. All right. Uh updates. Yeah. The one one of the things that we have to get in front of council at some point is the lighting ordinance. Ted, I'm looking at you. uh to give me a hand putting together a a PowerPoint, you know, basically explaining what we got out what what's out in the community now in the way of lighting. Oh, you know, in terms of you're not talking signing. No, we're talking like canopy [clears throat] lighting and street lighting and Okay. So, we've got some suggested changes in our draft. Is that what you're

Yeah, we gota we got to have a po I mean Carolyn I think just for reference like looking out here in these street lights the globes like what is that they have an understanding of like so we'd have to have some to do a good presentation we'd have to have some pictures for sure and I don't want to do them in the winter time because you get too much glare off the off the off the snow I mean it'll give you false reading that was my my concern uh to some to some extent depends what you're trying to write if If you're trying to show a a down sign and there's snow underneath, it's obviously going to appear much brighter than in the summer. Well, you know, we have like canopy in the proposed code, we have canopy lighting, which we'd be using for gas stations, right? Right.

So, the we need to have a picture to show the council this is what we have for current canopy lighting and this is what the lumens are and this is what the proposed ordinance could say so they could see if it's if we're going up or down, right? You know, I nobody on council is a technical lighting expert, right? And they're not going to really understand all of the right technicalities in the code. So, we have to kind of show them visually. Yeah. What we currently have and what's being proposed. So, what do we need to do that?

Well, I think we need some pictures. Uh, it is for sure depending on how you set your exposure, just what your camera does. I'm sure you've had this experience where you take a picture on modern some modern cell phone cameras and it appears brighter at night than it really is. You know, it's not the same, right? So, you've got that issue a little bit. Um but I think if you do comparative um one of the gas stations, uh shoot which one? One right up from the hospital on the hospital side up the hill the one that's open 24 hours. That one's not as bright. And then the other one. So some maybe you could. So even though the rel right you the absolute may not be the relative would be

do we need to have a light meter to actually take the reading? It'd be good to do some readings too. Okay. Yeah. The other factor is you know the down light might be similar. Yeah. But if the particular fixture has a drop in the lens up there in the canopy and throws light sideways, you know, that that could be unpleasant lighting because it's not fully she I think, you know, you you could mix some pictures, but I think you might do better with some data. Um, for instance, like the canopy um suggestion was I think uh 20 foot candles and um I I measured close to 60.

Yeah. I mean, so, so I think it'd be a combination of numbers and um also it's really good with I think with the foot candles, what hits you is like what is this room right here? What is this? You know, city hall, you're sitting here at this right now. Like could you pump gas here? Is this too bright or too you know those kind of things would be helpful? Um at your kitchen table, what do you It's It's a lot less than you think, you know. So, so I think that's how I I try and make the presentation with a little bit of math and science and a little bit of pictures. Okay. Like locations and they could go at at night this gas station. This is this go to this one and this one. Right.

Yeah. So, do we have access to a photoometer? Um, can we rent one? I'll have to take a look. Well, I think we need I think we need to get We have a simple photoometer in the city. Not that I'm aware of. They're not that expensive, but they I know, but what's the one that you wanted? That one was expensive. That Yeah, and wouldn't that wouldn't that be good for me uh city lights too or street lights? So, canopy lights you could, but it's it's it's um yes and no. Um, so a photoometer, the meter, the cheaper one works fine. What you

whatever that meter, I'm forgetting the name of it. Like if you had a canopy light, you could hit the ground under it. You You're talking about a nit gun. Nit gun. Yeah. And I could measure that. But if I measure at a typical height, like if you're at a gas station, you know, like a horizontal. So you can't measure that. So that doesn't do that well. Plus the tables and foot candles anyway. All the stuff is for the uh the outdoor lighting requirement. So, you might as well use um foot panels. And we should have one. We have to have one of those meters anyway. That's not I think they're like 60 bucks or something. Can you check on that? You know, because that I think we're going to need to show existing examples, right? This is what Right.

This is what the foot candles are for like this. You think people are going to be concerned? I just they need a more of a comfort level because kind of what we're doing is compliant with [clears throat] recommendation. Yes. Yeah. I I think it's got to be educational. I mean the ordinance is technical, right? And we got to we got to we got to make it educational so the council understands what we're trying to achieve. It's funny what I found is when you when you go around looking with for this that one specific element, you're used to things like you're just used to seeing certain things. When you start thinking about it, would it need to be that right to pump? I mean, you know, you like it if it starts to strike you down. Lisa sent the ordinance over to electrical department. Mhm. For them to take a look at it. And they said, "We're we're fine."

Yeah. With the with the foot candles in there, they said we're good. Yeah. So, uh but it's I got to get We got to get a I got to get a presentation to them. You know, I just don't want to give them the ordinance saying we had a public hearing on it. Here you go. I want to give them a presentation. Joe had a W three meeting. What's that? Joel knock. Knock. He had a W three meeting on on Valentine's Day. What was that? He just to introduce himself to the world because he missed

so many. And um it was interesting because I I'm all for this dark sky and you know in fact I only reason I wore no I didn't think it would went far enough and um there was person there saying I don't I like this dark sky because I'm I'm afraid to walk in. So you ought to Yeah, you're going to have to that this is light enough to do your you know if you're walking your neighborhood it is going to be light enough to be safe. I think that you're going to have to show that side of it too. Understand that, you know, down light in the shield is is fine,

right? I think part of the concern is the move towards LED lights. They are very focused. there's there's just not the big right spread of the old but what Mercury

but what you clearly got going on I think it's two things you just like the sign discussion if you get thoughtful discussions of that you'll they'll talk about um people cannibalizing each other with signs sign competition I'll go bigger so you can be sign you know see my sign and then the next guy goes bigger and pretty soon you see the picture of a street but you can't see any of the signs because they're all blocking each other and that's just kind of unchecked. No one trying to do anything bad, but everyone trying to and light competitions are generally occurring are definitely occurring out there. I think not so much purposely. One is just that lighting got so less expensive with LEDs. They put out way more light. The bolts last forever and they can be really bright with low energy. So that opened up this whole universes. You'll see ads on your TV about security lights, how bright they are. You can see it 10 blocks away. It's [clears throat] great. It's like, no, it's not. [laughter] But if you live next door.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I gotta give that I may pick your brain when I get that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Can I just briefly go back to commissioner comments for just a second? Sure.

Um, you know, I've been concerned and I a bunch of us I guess have been concerned about to me the alarming rate which are single family houses are being converted to summer only vacation type houses, right? And I was looking through some stuff I had and I found this article from a year or two ago that was in the Northern Express about deed restrictions. You know, that you could put a deed restriction um before you sold your home that it could only be used permanently, you know, for year round housing. And so the um housing north Yara Brown the executive director I don't know if she's still the executive director but they're promoting this program and they've got something going where they've been working with Charlotte ones to promote this idea and I don't know how this exactly relates to us the planning commission other than our desire to see houses remain available to families and people that live here year round and whether or not you We could adopt the idea of of what a public awareness and education effort to try to get out and just plant the seed to community members and and residential owners that before they sell their house, they might want to explore the possibility of of a deed restriction to try to maintain it as a single family yearround occupying house. Now, I don't know what that does relative to, you know, does that affect your your your your market value?

Hell yes, it would. Yeah. I mean, you're going to tell somebody unless you're going to live here 12 months, you can't buy this house, but you can't buy a house for three just But again, a person decides to do it on their own. But, Rich, yeah, the point is that Yeah, you you cut out a whole bunch of buyers that could be there. too much warehouse. Yeah, you just got all the So, so probably that would be a hard cell, but it's an interesting idea that I kind of came across. Don't get me wrong, I don't like to see it, but Right. Yeah. What can you do about it? Right. So, that's what I've been thinking about. Is there anything there? There would there might be some people who do that. Oh, yeah. There would be. I could see for sure.

People who get money, right? But if you made a deed restriction, couldn't the new owner Well, the new owners got No, they got to agree. But it's it's a it's a deed restriction runs with. So, it has to be your primary residence or something. I mean, what would we do here? Well, I I would say either primary residence or rental property. It's got somebody living in it year round. I think what probably Housing North was getting at was the conversion of all these houses into short-term rentals. Right. Right. Who cares if it's owner occupied or renter occupied as long as somebody's living their home?

I think that's the key. I mean, and we've got 70 years that I know, but I have aunts and uncles and stuff that soon as they turn 65, they spent six months. My brother spent six months a year in Florida. He owns his property. He owns his house. You know, I don't think you would have a dele restricted, but he he could. But I mean that's different than the person that has essentially they own their vacation number. You know, they come up and only spend three months a year and a few weeks a year. So Rick, this is something a a homeowner would do on their own with this restriction on the deed before they sell their house.

Right. That's how I understand. And so once it's restricted, you can never change it going forward. No. Maybe the the next owner could change it when they sell. They sell, but not the current owner that's buying it. Ah, I see. Just is there or an article you could forward to us? Well, this is just a little blurb what I say was talking about housing. It was an article about housing and and how the housing north is promoting ADUs and yearround housing. And so that's there there were a couple lines in here about that. So I don't know maybe we would want to get Yarl Brown to

she she left. She's not the executive director, but we could we could contact housing north and ask him about it. Yeah. I don't know where a rep we used to have a rep from housing north here. Do you know? We don't know. I don't It used to be Lindsay was the gal that's doing the church. I was going to say was the whole story. She's still I think that's still her job. That's still her job. I think so. Okay. Well, she's the she's the north rep for EMTT County. That's right. I forgot. Yeah, we could ask her. So, maybe there's some more we need about that. Yeah. All right. It is 7:38 and this meeting is adjourned. If