Board of Commissioners - workshop

Thank you, Lord. Have a beautiful day. Thank you for all the rain and everything you give us in our lives, Lord. Be with all of the first responders in our country and be with all of the men and women in the military in this country, out of this country. Make them home safe. And Lord, just be with everything our president's doing and keep him safe. God, all of these commissioners tonight, may we make the best decision we can.

So in Jesus' name we pray, amen.

Amen.

Amen. All right. Okay.

workshop uh discussion of unpaved roads are we using this one here okay um

All right, go ahead, Mr. Everson. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, members of the board. Today we are here to discuss conversions of dirt roads to paved roads here in Columbia County. If I do my job properly, when we all leave here, we're all going to understand the finance burden, the operational side, and the legalities of the dirt and paved conversions. Before I go any further, I have no appetite to offend any of our neighboring counties. I am going to defend Columbia County. Back in May 7th, there were two statements that were made. Basically, in Columbia County, it cost over 300% more per mile to a dirt and paved conversion, and that we did not have a plan. I will illustrate. Both of those statements are not true. Okay, missed a slide, it won't work. Anyway, before you is a letter. Link, you're just working for me, please. Go back to the letter, please. Okay, before you, you have a letter that was written on May the 11th from the Director of Public Works in Suwannee County named Mrs. Brenda Flanagan. She heard about the May 7th meeting. She wanted to ensure that that number was not accurate And quite candidly, they do not do enough dirt to pave conversions to even know what an actual budget is. Signed, Mrs. Brenda Flanagan. Okay? Mr. Chairman, members of the board, I broke this presentation up into two parcels, Suwannee County, then on to Columbia County. Quite frankly, we could stop talking about the comparison to Suwannee County with that letter. I would like to put this horse in the barn Washington for all okay link okay guys whether you're in Swanee County or Columbia County a home needs a foundation before you put the roof on a road needs a foundation before you put the roof on minimum by 8 inch stabilized subgrade with a lime rock bearing ratio of 30 six inches of compacted live rock and an inch and a quarter of asphalt all of those things have a lot of lab work quality control work quality assurance work a lot goes into that to validate that it's done and done right the last thing you want to do is eight you'll see later 871 tons to the mile of asphalt at 120 dollars per ton picked up at the plant that equates to one hundred and five thousand dollars before you haul it and lay it the last thing any reasonable person would do would not establish that typical section right there that base right there link on the permitting side of things i had an audio but it won't work we indicated at may 7 somebody said they did it with no engineering no permitting What's the purpose of permitting? First of all, it's required by statute. That's the first thing. It provides us with legally defensible actions. I do not recall who was on the board, but Joel, you very much remember this. The latest big one we went through was where the roundabout in Bascom Norris is. We constructed Bascom Norris. There was a business owner that felt the paving of Bascom Norris caused a flooding issue we do it right we were successful in that litigation once again providing stormwater management produces pollution generated from the paved surfaces providing stormwater management offsets flooding issues caused by impervious services reduces reliability and provide data for future drainage also it gives you the least impact on the surrounding park So we took a little field trip over to Lavo, okay, Link? We took a look at a few roads, 80th there, a couple years ago, 99th Lane. Here's what they look like paved. You see the erosion, these are new roads. Longitudinal cracking, pavement deflection, these are new roads. This is what happens when you don't get a little bit of right-of-way. You don't build that foundation right. That's what happens. Link. Another set of roads. Once again, pavement failure, asphalt rattling on the right, joint failure. These are new roads. Link. We went on to Dallin Park, 98th, 231st, and 100th Street. Okay. All these are your dirt roads. One more link. Okay. Once again, you got raveling, pavement failure, no striping, no side drains, no cross drains. Somebody basically went over there with no permits, straightened up what was there, made it into that asphalt. So in conclusion of Suwannee County, 871 tons mix that's 120 dollars a ton at the plant whether they buy it or we buy it that's what it costs that's only no MRT mobilization coal striping siding grassing earthwork what we did find out their average tonnage placement 150 and 175 tons per day. I'm paving in multiple districts as we speak. My contractor is averaging 1,100 tons a day. Same amount of folks, same amount of equipment. Now, we are all in. When I say all in, we're averaging $220,000 a mile. maintenance of traffic, mobilization, striping, stop bars, the whole nine yards. We're averaging $220,000 a mile. An older fellow that taught me a lot of this always said, materials times two will get you where you're going. I just told you it was 105 in material. 220 a mile, they're pretty much hitting their mark, doing a little better than their mark. Mrs. Flanagan concurred to 340, 360, whatever that number was, is not true. Quite candidly, she doesn't know how the budget, they don't do enough. All that, I'm of the opinion, even if it was not legal, I believe that you should always go through the permitting process. When the guy on Old Wire Road was the last significant rain, we paved the road, it caused me a water problem. Oh, you recall all these. That's how you circumvent that. So in Columbia County, I'll get started on that minute, and I'll allow any questions y'all want. I don't care where you're at in North Florida right now, up to my Columbia County, except everything that touches us, it's 220 a mile to put roughly an inch and a half mixed in.

That's just asphalt, is that what you're saying?

That's all in. If you go out there in your district, when I'm out there paving an inch and a half on those older roads, that's 220,000 a mile all in, contracted out.

Just for the asphalt?

No, sir. No, no, okay. I just told you, it's 871 tons and $105,000 worth of asphalt. Okay? It's 220, when I say 220, all in. All the guys, the truck, all in. Chairman, I have a question.

If I can just finish up. Yes, I bet. Okay, I'll tell you what. Let's do this real quick. Because, Robbie, let's hold off. Go through your presentation.

Okay.

But let's not go all the way, you know what I'm saying.

I'm going to cut it off in about three more sentences.

Sorry about that, sir. This way, because I'm writing some questions down here, too.

It's 220 a mile at an inch and a half. Stuff like we're doing in Robinson. It's 330 a mile level, and then put a surface course on. or milled and put one layer of asphalt, 330. It is 485 a mile if you do what we call full depth reclamation. It's $1.2 million a mile, and we're gonna get all into this in a minute. 1.2 million a mile plus $1 million soft cost to do dirt to pay conversion. That's 2.2 for your first mile, $1.2 million every mile thereafter. Now, in my opinion, I can see if we're going up there and running a greater up and down and running an inch and a half asphalt on someone's there, I can see where politically that might get a fellow reelected. A man that comes in behind him in six or eight years, when they have to mill it all up and start over, or the man that comes in behind him, is dealing with water problems, because there is no ditches, no cross drains, no side drains, no permitting, no engineering, that's going to be a problem. So I'm done with Swanee County and I'm subject to any questions.

I have a question. Go ahead. Oh. Rum Island Road. You've told me this story more than once. Yeah. Dewey Weaver called you up on a Saturday. Everybody's getting stuck down here on Rum Island Road. We've got to do something with Rum Island Road today. You went out there Monday morning, laid out a center line around Modern Road with dog families, if I remember what you said, sticking dog families up in the middle of the road. Y'all went in there and paved that road, dusty road, permit, no permit, no nothing. Y'all just went in there and paved that road. And that road still looks great today. Still looks great today. That was how many years ago?

About 17. Yeah. Okay. When I get into Columbia County, I'm going to show you sins of the past. I'm going to show you sins of the past. We weren't always perfect.

Are we perfect now? Not perfect. Okay. I just want to offer you a perfect now. Please let's go have a radical meeting. Nobody's perfect.

Well, God's perfect. Okay. All right. Go ahead.

Commissioner Ford is exactly right. I did that job. We did do proper line of operation to stabilize the submarine. We did it fast. We did it without a permit in the beginning. We did get a permit later on. We did. No doubt about it. But we did it right. We didn't skip no corners. We didn't go under a scratch what was there. We built it in-house. And we're going to talk in a few minutes why some things have changed in the recent past, maybe. Why all that isn't possible anymore, either. We're going to talk about Florida statutes and all kinds of good stuff. But all that being said, I'm subject to any questions.

So there's one account on the song. There's one account of gravitation.

So I understand there's a DOT's book and then there's a green book. The green book allows you to do a lot.

I'm going to talk a lot about it.

And I'll be honest with you, I've had to talk with Greg Bailey about it. He tells me that you can go in there and put a road back on the footprint, and it's right there now, with a dusty road permit, and you can eliminate engineering, all kinds of stuff.

long as you don't change the elevation or grade or whatever just go in there and pay you can pay me mr chair okay i'm gonna get real deep in the green book here a little bit columbia county the part that i think you're missing the dusty road permit allows you as long as you do not alter the existing centerline and as long as you don't alter the blue top elevation of the asphalt That will qualify. We use them all the time. That does. It also eliminates the need for retention funds. No question. I'm going to get into all that in big detail. Why leave Suwannee County? I did not intend to offend. Nobody is doing dirt to pay conversions for $300-something. It is impossible. They give me the numbers. The boss lady of Suwannee County.

wrote the letter four days later so the person that's in your position that's who oversees all paving in their county must not have known anything about these roads being built it's what i'm thinking because she's saying she doesn't have a budget for it i don't understand how you can not have a budget for it and be the head of the and not know about it i would have never brought swanee county into this conversation i had to

was accused of spending 300 percent more for a while no no no no i just said they could pay they they showed me roads that were being paid for this much money i've got it right here i got it right here the whole thing on my phone while he would make it up he i don't think he made it up i mean you know and uh i think i hear what i'll say too in swanee county you know they set up a little different than we are the commissioners over there have a lot more authority in swanee county than we have over here i mean they they can do things we can't do because of our cause where our charter is and everything else but at the end of the day these were done and it was presented at a county commission meeting the cost of the project for each project so the numbers are there now miss flanagan i've never talked to miss flanagan i really don't know who she is but uh this was all discussed i mean i've talked i've talked to some of the commissioners over about it they said yes this is what we're doing i showed you a picture of the road i spent a day over there mr chair yes sir i would challenge anybody if somebody's got a calculator just i want to validate something does anybody have a calculator on their hands sir

Yeah, yeah, just a quick, I just want to show where I'm coming from with this, why it is impossible. You ready to give?

Go ahead.

5,280 times 18. 95,040. Five by nine. 10,560. Times 165.

1.7 million, or 1.7, 1,742,400 dollars.

Divide by 2,000.

Divide by 2,000. That's 871.2.

Okay, that's how many tons covers 18 foot by one mile internet, which is what they did over there. I went and looked at it. Times $120.

That's how much it is a ton.

At the plant.

That's 104,544. $105,000 of material before you transport.

before you've got a crew of men to lay it, before you roll it, before you stripe it, before you do all that, it is impossible to build a road like that. You are paving an inch and a half of asphalt. The definition of what's being explained is not a dirt to pave conversion. And I'm going to get into it in a few minutes and show it is a mathematical impossibility.

so you know we're not here really we're not here to learn how to build a road i'm not here to learn how to build a road i don't want to build a road i want to i want a plan to change the road from dirt to paved we're going to get there one or two two or three miles a year or two or three miles every two years we're going to get there that's all i want is a plan you said we had one we do let's well let's hear the plan i'll get there we don't need a lesson on how to build mr chair you guys

okay at the end of the day the purpose of learning how to build a road is you got to understand are you buying a four-wheel drive a two-wheel drive or a yugo what do you buy are we ready to move to columbia county all right so in columbia county we use partners florida state statutes 336.41 Columbia County, you cannot do in-house performance that exceeds $400,000 minus a 20% management fee. That's $320,000 of crew materials and labor. The contractors apparently got real smart, didn't want to be paying tax dollars for counties to compete against them. So when you go out there, you're ready to self-perform work in-house. If you exceed that $320,000

plus management fees that's a problem now where is this at where does this rule at so what you're saying is whoa whoa whoa whoa Kevin tell them where it's at it's right there yes sir it's right here on your book statute 336441 is that a state statute yes sir this is Florida state statute okay I'm just asking where's that at because that's the first time I ever heard this okay Columbia County LDRs we're fixing to look at some typicals while there's a

If I were a developer, and you're going to see the tip in a minute, if I required a minimum of 60 foot of rideway, if I required eight inches of stabilized subgrade, six inches of rock, minimum an inch and a quarter asphalt, I would ask questions, county, you're enforcing me to do X, Y, and Z. County, how are you getting away from not doing that exact thing? We're going to talk a lot about the Florida Green Book. because it is designed by the DOT for counties. It is a lesser standard than the FDOT standard specs for road and bridge construction, FDOT standard plans, and manual of uniform traffic control devices, the Green Book. I think the biggest confusion with the Green Book is every road has its own characteristics. So if you look at the average trip per day, the geometric alignment, all that kind of stuff, you go and see where it is applicable in the green book the easiest example i can give is if you've got a little dirt road with a cul-de-sac on the end of it and all the houses from the 70s are built out there's no available property you put the traffic counters down it comes up to be 100 trips a day and you know nothing else is going to get built out there you go to that section of the green book to a lesser standard in the world There your industrial road permit comes in. You go and you put about 18 foot of pavement down. Straight, you still gotta have your base. Stabilized subgrade and your base. Still got the eight inches. Uh-huh. But you go in there and you pave for that minimal amount, $220,000 a mile, plus effort to get the stabilized subgrade, line rock, and all that stuff, okay? That's where your green book. Now, rough road, for example, out there by my house. It cuts between 247 and 240. This board has already supported the realignment of 240 down south to eliminate a bad intersection. There was conversation as it related to paving rough road. I forget the traffic counts, but part of the Green Book indicates in the foreseeable future, if you see in excess of 400 trips per day, then you go to this box. You can't do this box. You go to this box. But if you go out there and put the counters down, you've got 300 trips a day in old, raggedy, rough, dirt road. Common sense tells you, you paid that. You're fixing to flood it. There's nobody, including myself, that's going to go down there and make that sharp left. Okay, so we have governing bodies, including the Green Book, and of course, Swanee River Water Management. The importance of them is when you have all these different entities as a partner, and I do not recall the last time it has not happened, we always say we have water displacement. We have water we never add until you pave the road. When you've got an engineered set of plans stamped and sealed, You've got a permit from the Water Management District. You've got all this stuff. You've got good ditches, all that. When the attorneys come, everybody knows you can get sued over anything, but you've got a lot more bullets in your gun to defend it. When you say, well, I applied for a Dust Road permit. I didn't get anything else, and I think I get that. The top of the elevation is the same. It's hard to defend. We're going to get there. Okay, Lenny. The next thing is the typical section. So we hear a lot about why do we have to have all that right? Right? This is why. Not always. We could talk about the little road to the dead end cul-de-sac, build our houses, but that's more. The basic geometry. Basic geometry. 10-foot travel lane, 6-foot dirt shoulder, 4-to-1 on front slope, 2-foot ditch, 4-to-1 on the black slope, and a 2-foot table. That's not curvature numbers. That's geometry. That's 68 foot. Now, we don't live in a perfect world. Doesn't that look like a road right there, guys? That looks like a road, right? Link? And so what does that give you, guys? It gives you a good-looking road. Let's look at Cypress Lakes Road, a forward alley. Good-looking road. Link? Double-run road. Good-looking road. Link? Okay. Back in the days when we didn't do it right.

When we didn't do it right?

Yes, sir. When I say didn't do it right, I don't recall us ever not building roadbeds right. I know I've never done that. But for me and me, we would skip out on getting right-of-way and stuff. We would. especially these little skinny roads and guess what sometimes we can't get to the ditches with equipment there is no right of way and then at some point they get erosion and all that and quite frankly the guys just let them go right okay link once again this road right here in southwood acres this road floods quite frequently because there is no ditches you'll see the longitudinal cracking and failure Now, unlike the roads I showed earlier, these roads are, remember how long you've been in office, 12, 14 years? No, no, 11. Okay. I'm going to say those roads are about 15 years old, and you see that cracking. It's going to happen. It's going to happen a lot faster on the water. Link. Once again, vegetation, vegetation, and asphalt. Don't get along. right, roots, organics, they get under it, tears your asphalt up. Mr. Link, once again, over at Commissioner Hollisworth's district, we just got through, had a bunch of trees in the middle, we took all of them out, repaved, should be good to go. That's what caused the failure and all that asphalt. Link, once again, roots and whatnot tearing up asphalt. Let's get on to safety issues. We're always talking about tree trimming, right? Mr. Parnell, you talk a lot about tree tripping. A lot about it. Okay. Without the sufficient right-of-way, clear zones cannot be met to the minimum standards established by the Green Book. In certain situations, the dead-end road, cul-de-sac, absolutely. But in my opinion, not in my opinion, we do not have a spec book. We've got the Florida Green Book. And Greg Bailey's exactly right. He does exactly what we all do. You look, you put your traffic counters down, you go and establish certain criteria, and you go and you look at this chart, this chart, and this chart, and it tells you what you can and can't do.

Okay?

I agree 100%. Mr. Link, geometric alignment. You got your hairpin curves, things of that nature. That's what happens when you do not have sufficient alignment. Once again, Link, geometric alignment.

Okay.

Okay. Let's talk about something real good. Mr. Ford indicated he would love to see about three miles of roads a year. Here's your lucky day.

That's what I said. I said we should take a project about three miles and get the right of way and the engineering done and submit it to SCOP. Everybody knows there's a new way you've got to submit to SCOP yet. And I will just tell you, according to my research, the last SCOP project done in Columbia County

submitted for in Columbia County was in 2016 well yeah that's the last one Cypress Lake wrote am I correct mr. Murphy okay that's what research sometimes here several years ago back in the old days we were allowed to submit two products I mean two for scrap two for scop two for signal that was the old days what you're referring to somewhere that changed they said buddy You don't worry about whether it's scrap, scop, or sigmi. You submit three projects in totality, and then we'll decide where it is to go. So when you say you are correct, they change the way it's done. I don't get to choose anymore. They do.

Have we submitted a dirt-to-pave conversion to scop, scop, or sigmi since 2016? Have we submitted one at all? I don't have that right in front of me. The answer is no, I don't have that.

Okay, Mr. Chair. Here's what we have done the last 15 years. I just think that's an arbitrary number. We've gone over 46 miles of dirt to make the conversion. Over 46 miles.

I agree with that. Okay.

That's a good thing. Okay. So what have we got left? We're going to get on to what the plan is. We have roughly 380 miles of dirt road left. You have about 77 miles of those dirt roads that have the sufficient right-of-way. They're not cleared and grubbed. They're still going to cost a lot of money. But about 77 miles of the 380, you have the dirt you need to do to build a highway. Guess what? They're not sexy. Okay? They're not the Fry Roads, the May Roads. Those 77 miles are your dusty road permits and stuff like that. No doubt. A little dirt road goes right by my house, a handful of trips a day. That's one of them. So let's talk about the plan, Mr. Lincoln. Back in 2017, that board at that time adopted a policy. It's several pages long. I'm going to get to the final page in a minute. i think what i'm hearing is maybe some or some people do not like that policy that's that's that's why i'll be having a workshop so that policy clearly indicates and we follow it until it becomes cumbersome that policy indicates once the funding's in place and that's y'all's job until david and i that you want to set aside x amount of dollars for dirt roads but you have a very firm plan in place You just don't ever hear about it because it works so good. So day one through day X, I'm gonna get all into it. We're gonna talk about why we're at Mayor Road. It goes, you know, we'll offer 115% of appraised value right out the gate for the dirt. It talks about what a five-strand barbed wire fence is before it's fence post. It talks about a cross fence, a board fence. It talks about arborists and trees. It takes all the mystery out of what you're doing. It is just, boy, I remember a team of us wrote that thing. It took us three months to write that thing because it was so, we wanted to capture everything. Here's the cool part. Out on Mayo Road is the one that we're working on most recently, I should say, Dirt Bay Diversion. So you're $1.1 million deep, okay? 161 on survey permitting and engineering, 948 on right-of-way acquisition, 1.1. You had 43 constituents on property. You've captured 33 with 10 left. We sent out certified mail back on April 30th. We know that two have been received. Quite frankly, I don't think they can find the other eight. Now, based on your policy, one more page based on your policy once again I'm just going to kill you all the time today here we go this board has told me with a consensus you're not interested in filing an eminent domain on mayo road that's what I heard we talked about last so based on this policy our plan all I got it was has a funding source you go and you pick the road and you follow this policy based on your policy i come in and i said what's the consensus to vote they said we don't do them in the domain on mayor road i shelved mayor road when did we vote on that we didn't vote we talked about it i said consensus i already remember that we can't do it at workshop this board this board i didn't ask them and i'm going to tell you guys here's my problem too

asked for this information for the last two and a half months I've asked for this information for two and a half months finally got Chad to call me back Chad told me I'll give that information to mr. Kirby mr. Kirby told me anything information goes to you goes through him first I talked to David about this information David said I'm gonna try to get Kevin to get it for you evidently Kevin don't think I need this information even though it's public information That's what I kept telling Mr. Joel about, our attorney, that I'm being suppressed information that I'm requesting. This is a prime example of it. He's had this information for a while, according to Chad Williams, but he wouldn't give it to me. He wouldn't share it with me. This Mayo Road information. The people that have not submitted. What I requested was, I want a list of the people that have not Answer back on the right of way from Mayo Road. I want to know any addresses they have on file if we try to contact these people. I want to know what effort has been made to contact these people. I can't get no response whatsoever for that. And I've been told by Chad, he finally called me back. Matter of fact, he called me back Monday of this week and said, I give this information to Kevin. I give it to him. He's had it a while. He told me Any information goes to you, comes through me first. I don't know what he's trying to hide. I really don't know. Why wouldn't he give me this information?

Well, I'll say this. This is a policy that's in place, okay? And I understand what you're saying, 100% understand what you're saying, Rob. But my point is, is that simple question, has every single step of here been followed? Yes. And when you say put on the shelf, our acquisition agents have done what they do

mean you know what I'm saying I mean shy of getting in a plane flying to wherever they live I mean I guess what I'm saying but go ahead chairman let me respond on what you just said okay I've got 1.9 million dollars or 0.9 million dollars invested in right-of-way acquisition on this road right now of resurfacing money we I have I have that invested Don't you think I deserve the information I've requested on a project in my district that I'm trying to get done? The first time I've heard it was put on a shelf was just now. I've been told this is a good project by Mr. Kirby several times, and we're going to get this project done. Now he's telling me it's on a shelf.

Go ahead.

First of all, before we go to other candidates, when I say put on a shelf, right now we've not been able to locate the folks we've done certified letters that's what i say what i thought i heard maybe i did but i can bring it back at the next meeting for permission to go to eminent domain or not during the big meeting at the end of the day this is a fluid presentation i finished this presentation today contrary to some belief i didn't just sit around and have nothing else to do to put this presentation together

now as for you do not ask me for that information okay did i have to ask you i have you do and i have you do and i'll explain both of them say you had it i'm just telling you okay hold on rob i'm just saying that you know that it's already missed don't don't cuss at me that's it all right i'll stop the meeting we're either going to get something accomplished well i'm trying to get something accomplished

all right go ahead okay okay before you go to father captain here's where we're going to go from here on board i'm as guilty as everybody sitting on this board stepping over people you know talking to people from here on out everybody asks the chair for permission to speak towards this if not given you don't speak in discussion thank you okay please go ahead okay other counties what do other counties do so we got a plan

We got to identify a funding source. We got our policy established in 2017. We do do our thing. We go follow the green book. We build a job. Clay County, they did a big fancy study. Bay County, they do a 60-40. 60% the county pays the bill, 40% the constituents do. Pasco County, they do an MSTU. And even if you lived on a paved road, you've put the bill for paying for the dirt rope, which is quite frankly what we do here, unless we go to Scraps Cop and Seek Me, right? Because we pay taxes, pull out the general fund to go paved road. So we're kind of like Pasco. Lake County is kind of interesting. For non-paved substandard local roads, 3367. If you're out on local road, 3367 split. If you're in a neighborhood collector road, it's a 50-50 split with the county. as long as every property owner donates the property 100 if they do not donate they go to the next job so that's like so they donate and also have to pay on their taxes for that 50 50. okay okay if the road's a million dollars please ask i'm sorry i'm sorry and me too i'm guilty i don't feel go ahead i'm sorry everybody can talk with me i guess yeah no i just said yeah everybody can talk about rocky yeah 50-50 split, yes. Yes, Mr. Chair, 50-50, and you have to donate 100%.

Anybody have any questions? I'll just screen right here before we flip back. Okay, go ahead.

Okay, Link.

Okay, guys, in conclusion,

We follow the Florida Green Book, which is a lesser standard than Epcot's standard. I told you earlier, 220, one-layer mix, 330, level mill and pave, 485, full depth reclamation, 1.2, construction only, $1 million soft cost to get you ready. The moral of the story is, every time you let the current paved roads deteriorate, you see that number up to FDR. That's one subject. paved roads dirt paved roads it's roughly a million dollars in soft cost and 1.2 billion dollars a mile our plan has been at least since 17 we've done 46 miles in 15 years for the most part our plan is to go get the plans ready, get the permit ready, now get the dirt ready, submit the DOT, and once in a while, we do it out of local monies, following the Florida Green Book, okay? That has been our plan, and that is currently our plan. The spirit of a workshop is to explain what we have and why we have it, and if the commission says, well, staff, we really don't like that plan, Then that's another conversation. That's the purpose of a workshop. Right now, Mr. Chair, we have plans. We have a guideline. We still have a funding source. So if you run it at 2.2 for the first mile and 1.2 thereafter, I think mathematics is pretty simple. If we set aside three miles a year, dirt, you can logically assume 2.2, 3.2, 3.4.

chairman can I speak please okay mr. Kirby I asked for a plan to get these roads ready to submit to Scott I didn't ask for a plan to pave these roads out of County funds my whole plan is my whole plan is I think everybody's understood this from the start. Get the right-of-way and get the engineering done so we can present a road to Scott. We can't afford to pay the dang road. And we know that. But if we can get the engineering done and get the right-of-way in place, we can submit it. And from what I'm hearing and reading and talking to everybody, nobody's submitting these projects for road, dirt, and pavement conversion to DOT because nobody can get a road ready for Right away and everything else of 20 County just did just submitted one and I was told that everybody basically donated right away, but that's not true. I know I was told that by somebody here, but that's not true. I confirmed it. It's not true. Some of it was. Some of it was donated, though. But my goal is not to come up with the money to pave the road. My goal is to take a road. Fry Road is a high-traffic dirt road. Fry Road is south of the county. And I think if you check the grading records, we grade that road sometimes three times a week because it is so high-traffic. We're grading it right now sometimes three times a week, sometimes more than that if it rains. my goal is all i'm asking this board to do is say all right fry roads our next project we're going to concentrate on buying right away on fry road and getting engineering done for fry road so we can submit this road to a dlt grant for for payment that's what i'm asking to do i'm not asking the county to come up with 1.2 million dollars per mile to pave a road mr chair i just showed you mayor road

don't recall how long mayo road is to buy the dirt and do the little bit of engineering and the permit was 1.1 million and you still lack a hundred some thousand if the other guys will join in okay let's call it one three i can answer his question depending per mile what that is versus what fry is you can break that down by the mile but i think fry rose longer than mayo rose I think Fry Road is longer than Mayo Road. I might be wrong about that.

I don't know.

Irregardless, you're still looking at over a million dollars. I just showed you what it looks like. Now, if that's the ultimate question, that's so simple. If this board says we're willing, and let me do some homework. This board, let me validate the length of it, all that good stuff. If this board says Fry Road's a great road to go to the engineer and buy that right away, simple. Now, here's my concern. Here's my concern. We saw what we went through on Cypress Lakes and Charles. We now know that Mayo Road has 10 of 43 that are either not willing to play ball or something. How many projects are you going to spend $1.1, $1.3 million on? Unless this board's ready to go to eminent domain, how many times are you going to go out there and spend $1.2 or $1.3 million? Now, Mr. Chair, what I saw with these other counties, they make the taxpayers participate financially. They make you donate the dirt. What is wrong with going out there and spending a trivial amount of money to establish a center line of the road, therefore establish and petition everybody up and down Fry Road, are you willing to donate your property? I think that's the reason I took other counties. We act like we've got to pay 100% of the bill. We act like we can't ask to donate property. That's not the way other counties do it.

So the point I think you're trying to make, and I want to make sure this is true because it is scary, when you go out to do a dirt-to-pave conversion in our county like it has been with Charles Road and all that, you go and you say, okay, you spend 1.3 before you ever get to the situation of needing them to give you the right-of-way. We need to get the right-of-way day one. Is that what you're saying? Mr. Chair. Go ahead.

Let me elaborate. Okay. So you go out to the dirt road. First thing you have to do is establish a center line. Where's the new center line? Minimum amount of engineer. Then you got to take the survey and make sure the engineer agrees when you pave the road that existing center line will work so you don't kill somebody. Okay. Once that's done, then based on speed, I mean, guys, it's this tricky. You can lower the speed limit and cut six inches off a lane width, but then people fuss about that. It's very tricky, okay. The process is you locate the centerline, make sure that E and engineer can sign a seal, whatever you're trying to do, and right then you determine how much right-of-way you need. Okay, what does that cost? Okay. That's what I'm asking. Usually it costs, it varies, Up to that point, without drawing the plans, you're going to spend, you know, $50,000, $75,000. Now, depending on the length of the road, now once you spend that money to establish a center line, the engineers will go in and tell you, okay, we think we need a minimum of 50 foot, 60 foot, 70 foot, 80 foot. They'll determine that. Then you know from that center line, if it's 80 foot, 40 foot that way, 40 foot that way. then you go to all you see you bring your right-of-way act according to your current policy you bring your right-of-way acquisition agency two cows and they start contacting by mail by person they start and right out the gate the way the policy reads today we're gonna offer you a hundred and fifteen percent for every square foot of that dirt above a price you know one fifteen of a price value that ways it makes it palatable we're gonna take your fence down take your trees down we're gonna pay you for that what happens is is you're always going to bump into that few, or a lot of times, that say, no deal. Mr. Parnell's double-run road, the reason it didn't go all the way around, we were doing that process, boom, bumped into a problem, we stopped it. We stopped it short. What I'm saying is, instead of continuous spending north of a million dollars, I'm still going on the fact that I don't think y'all like Emmett Romain. I might be wrong. Maybe we need to bring that to a vote. next two weeks assuming I'm right how many times are you going to go spend 1.1 or 1.2 million dollars knowing that if everybody doesn't play ball you're gonna put the proper project on shift so so what I'm saying is it's 1.1 to 1.2 to do it before you even find out what property when you ask the people for the property no sir Once you, I told you, you can, depending on the length of the road, you're going to spend probably less than $100,000 usually established in centerline. Then you're going to do some conceptual engineering to determine the right-of-way widths. Once that's complete, you then, for the most part, know what dirt you need. In my opinion, I don't vote. In my opinion, that's when I have a timeout, right there. I would petition everybody on that road, are you willing to donate? They're going to say yes or no. And in my humble opinion, about the third one, when they say we're not going to do that, we just go to the next job. At some point.

What if we do like you said? Yes, sir. What if we do like you said, double run? We got a mile of dirt road here. They're going to give us the property. We're going to pay this mile.

Mr. Chairman.

Yes, sir.

Okay. And that's a good idea. We got lucky on double run. It was the last house going north. So we just chopped it off early. What you might run into, once again, if this board's not willing to file in their domain, I'm making some assumptions here. What if this guy does, this guy does, that guy does, that guy does? You can't hop this cop around. But at the end of the day, that's the board's decision. Today, you got a plan. It was memorialized in 017.

So, go ahead. while ago and I'd like to ask for this information I don't have it but on Mayo Road you said how many people don't are we bought sold the property how many we have sold 34 we started with 43 and we secured 33 so basically 10 people out of 43 10 property owners out of 43 so basically two-thirds of the people on that road actually a little over two-thirds of people on that road said yeah they sold their property and we know how long was the road I think you got your hearing on it you say just say it's five miles I think it's five right around five miles so that's that's a that's a five that's a six million dollar project for DOT if they would pay that road at one point two million dollars a mile five mile that'd be six million dollars so if we could get a road paved free for a six million dollar project done for free you don't think it would be worth eminent domain on 10 pieces of property out of 43 pieces of property I mean to me that would make sense and I and also I want to say too this policy of buying property and not donating property and paying for fences and trees and all That was started before I was here. That's in tradition here. I don't know who started this policy, but they've been doing it. Every road that's been paved, I guess, except for Double Run Road, I guess, they bought right-of-way. They bought all the right-of-way on Cypress Lake. That's the only one that's been done since I've been here.

All right, Mr. Chair, let me tell you.

It was developed in 2017, and the result of it being developed

mainly on the old wire hurl on corridor that's when we really started getting cranked up dirt paved conversions about the time i rolled in that's we we got after right about that time in district one a man told me one time he's never bought an ounce of dirt in his life he was always donated that ended so what was going on the reason the policy was formed People get smart after a while. So we had no policy. The DOT was whispering back then, if you want our money, you're going to get sufficient right away. Before then, we didn't get sufficient right away. I showed you all the errors of our past. So we started getting sufficient right away, and we didn't have any kind of a policy. I'm going back to 08, 09 era.

The landowners would talk, and they got smart, and they knew we never liked eminent domains.

going on down there you were offering X amount of guys whatever math was about that four thousand bucks an acre we historically when you get this property it's a small strip by the length of their property so you take for example at a hundred and fifteen percent there's a lot of people it might be two you know acres forty three thousand five hundred sixty square foot but if you're only accommodating ten or twelve foot and it's 200 or 300 foot long, that's only a few thousand square foot. So if an acreage is $6,000 an acre, and you're only offering 115% of an eighth of an acre, I don't want you to tear my trees down. That little bit of money is not worth it. So the property owners got smart. They said that was Aunt Myrtle's tree. That tree's worth $100,000. Joe, what was that one tree worth? The trees on the sidewalk. No, no, no. The trees that we paid for on the arborist, I remember it was a tree like a $90,000 tree.

Yeah, depending on the maturity of the tree, the arborist testifies.

One tree. So the landowners back then got real smart, and they would hold out. They would hear what he got. They would hear what he got. They'd keep checking the price of the property. Then it come to driveways. The only way I'm going to do this deal, I want three driveways. Oh, by the way, I want a 50-foot culvert instead of a 32-foot culvert. Okay? all that stuff would happen at some point around 016 adopted in 017 we said okay guys we have got to quit going back and forth and then if we get mad the property we already dealt with we find out that mr murphy got six thousand acre well commissioner hollisworth a month before got four thousand acre so we said let's get a policy that that's the result of the policy now At the end of the day, in my opinion, and that's the purpose of the workshop, if you guys tell me we love our current policy, this continued way we're going, as a board, you say we want to put X amount of dollars to accommodate that, I can tell you two districts, that man right there has a pile of dirt roads. Love to pay you. flip side of that is we would like to see a modification of your existing policy your existing plan we would like to put some language in there we want to experiment we want to see if people donate the dirt versus just going and buying the dirt I'm open ears but you've had a plan in writing since 017 nine years Kevin if I may just for the board when I came in at 16 that's when it was all on fire because of what happened on old wire road

then what mr. Phillips come into play I sat right here and watched him in action what he went through on my first problem on old wire for some very dear friends was what we paid what the county paid on previous project over there in my district. What you painted over here, y'all painted over here. That's how we come up with this policy. With that being said, we understand Mr. Ford was very passionate about Mayo Road. I heard Mayo Road since the day I got here before when I was sitting way back down there. My point is that Mr. Ford opted to take his, what did I say, no, take his district's repaying money. He was passionate enough about it, and I supported him on it because every single dollar we spent, I voted and supported that. Looking back, I wish I wouldn't have because of what's happening here. Nothing against him, just, you know, because, boom, here we are. Like Rocky said, he's a million one into the show, and it's dead in its tracks. So...

we do board in my opinion uh i'm 100 can you go back to the slide where it showed the different counties please yes sir other options please one more going forward like kevin what are you looking for no the other way lane one that lists the four counties sure sure rock go ahead rock kevin i heard you say well there's 77 miles of dirt road that we have sufficient right away that is correct could i get a list of that you can't you can't um

And once again, the little road beside my home, for example. What I'm going with that, I'm trying to be very, very transparent here today. I know the roads that all the folks fuss about. I promise you I know. Those are not the roads that people are fussed about. Those are little, what I call, back in the day when you built subdivisions, you didn't have to pay for roads. That's those roads.

And the reason I want it. know how dry acres got paid and the reason they got paid is we had right of way that we could get a cdbg grant for it that's right i got it david helped me get it gave me eight and a half million dollar grant to pay the hydra acres we worked and bought that subdivision we got a grant for it but i want to see if there's some other subdivisions that might qualify for cdbg grant that we could pay those roads i mean you know that's already got the right of way right right away yeah well the it and i don't think there's a commissioner here

that would debate that mayo road is a i'm sorry fry road if anybody knows south end county they know that would be a huge road i mean it's huge now dirt and it was it's a justifiable road to pay and i understand what rocky's saying about the six million versus the eminent domain but uh i'm not an eminent domain guy because i promise you and i don't know one person that i know of lives on Pryor Road, but I guarantee you there's gonna be people on Pryor Road that says, I don't want my road paved. I'll move down to Durham Road. That's a long road to have, you know.

Well, the beauty of Pryor Road is there's not that many property owners on it. Is that right? A lot of it's big, long, you know, planted pines and solar panels.

The only time I think I've been down Pryor Road was with him.

He wouldn't be dealing with near about as many people on Pryor Road.

But looking at this, these different types of board, I think that we can collectively come up with either one or two. Me personally, because I heard the same story you did from District One for many years, and we all know that changes because of your stories on the south end. I think everyone's starting on this project anyway. But my point is that I'm for donation, you know, because it's, you know, number one, like I told a very good friend of mine on old wire phase two, you can't understand and see that the value of your sandy forty something acres is not fixing to jump up because you're fixing to put a million dollar mile road in front of you you're crazy and that's that's that's what they backed off you know but my point is is that well I pay tax we do and of course you know this is something we'll talk about a little later but you know all that doesn't do you know our property tax don't work we all realize that but my point is i think we can decipher out of this that you know even the one here in lake county you know the third that's that's kind of interesting but it's uh somewhere along the line that people on the roads have got to own up and say hey do we want to be a part of this thing and donation obviously i don't have a problem investing on fry road Whatever road, whatever road, doing that center line establishment. I think that's your due diligence. But anything outside of that, I'm not about making a bunch of engineered fridge and having a set of plans on there that sit there and get moldy in 25 years.

Go ahead. You mentioned Lake County. I was reading this. So they said they'll fund 33%. Well, I would submit to you probably 33% is engineering right of way. If you do the math on the total payment job, that's probably engineering right of way. mean you talk about six billion dollars if you spend you know if you spend a million dollars of that six million dollars you know and then you're sitting in six seven seven would be divided amongst the owners of the property what happened yeah that's the purchase six million dollar road yeah

but but if we could get scott to do it you know what i'm saying we still only have 33 percent of the total project and i think that would be i think commissioner i think that'd be a good selling point to the constituent look you know state of florida is going to jump in here and your part in this is to donate some property you know and i mean it's a sacrifice because i i guarantee you there's a there's a tree out there the grandma planted that

is it ninety thousand i've never did we paid nine thousand dollars for a tree but uh anyway but uh go ahead mr phillips i was gonna say we all got to be probably got i mean uh rocky's got this problem and i've talked to plenty of people out there on the road and you get a long stretch of road that you need property on well the person that owns that property They don't even live here. They live somewhere else. So they could care less whether it gets paid or not. And all the other people on the other side, we would not get it paid. We would give it right away. But there's one guy, he don't do that. So there's another problem we got. You know, if people lived out there, they would say, well, yeah, I would like to have a road pick. But, you know, it's just, I know it's kind of rough on you. It's kind of rough on all of us. Because we catch it, I can't get my road pick, you know. So,

Mr. Chair just for the record I wish we had every one of them

Wouldn't that be nice? That would be nice.

Go ahead. The last thing, the one that you had up, the green belt, what is it called? Green book. Green rose. The last one you had, not this one, but the one before that.

What are you asking me for?

It was the... The road, the green belt or green, what a dusty road permit, whatever that's going back. It was the last one you were at before we started the conclusion. Yeah. The conclusion dusty road. Yeah. Okay. So this is Columbia kind of flowers. The green book is this a, this is a green book road, right? Is that what you were saying?

Okay. most significant thing about the Green Book we rely on the FDOT we do not have an independent set of specifications the DOT has three sources what we call the big spec book MUTCD and the other one but they developed what we call the Green Book it's just green in color the cover of it it's the Florida County Green Book it's a lesser spec here's an example You ride down Bradford Highway, right? You're going to see 24 foot of pavement, five foot shoulder each side. That's 34 foot, 80 foot of ride away, big old slope, big old ditch, all that stuff. That's because that's the big book. They realized counties could not afford that. So they developed the green book. But the confusion that politicians always get because people tell them what they want here is you've got to look at every road independent. it is it's just not the same you cannot look at rough road and look I got one of your just a little one we just paved yeah on 47 we just did yeah that is so easy in the green book it's already built out it's just a little stretch but you cannot apply when we say the green book you go to this chart to this chart to this chart you just don't say it's in the green book I'm trying to use an analogy Mr. Phillips races cars Just because it's a race car, one goes 200 miles an hour, one goes 100 miles an hour.

So there's differences in every road. So what I'm saying is what we spend on the roads is just what it is. It's the amount of pavement, the amount of asphalt, the amount of the rock. It's an easy thing to figure out. And I agree with Mr. Murphy. I just can't spend all that taxpayers dollars for somebody that has a dirt road that doesn't want to donate their property. And like I said, that property is going to be raised in value by you paving that road. I don't understand why people say, I don't want to, unless they just don't want the road, you know, and I get it. Some people just don't want it no matter what you do. But, but I just don't know how, cause, cause, I don't know how you pay that kind of money for small piece to improve somebody's property. You are improving that neighborhood. And that's why I don't understand why people want the money. They want thousands or hundreds of thousand dollars for 10 foot of road, you know, 10 foot of property. I don't understand. In your mind, you know that that property is going to be worth more money when you pay it. All paved roads make property worth more money. i just don't understand why that happens and and to me it has to me it either has to be donated or do one of those other plans you're talking about but i can't i just can't you know i can't see spending that money you know probably all i would say about that is that would be like saying this man here don't want to want anybody to have a gun so nobody else can have a gun in the united states you got you got you got

50 people on the road to say all right I want this road paved I'll do this you got five that says I don't want to all the all them other 50s got to suffer cause them five say they don't want to I mean let's look at Mayo Road how many people were on that road 34 how many 43 properties and 33 of them all but 10 has sold their property okay okay all but 10 sold their property so everybody on that road got a check no no no

how many people on that road got right away go ahead kerry i'm just wondering what that percentage is okay two things let me hit answer that question and then i want to make sure why i've got that slide that's a very significant slide when we conclude i'll have public comments so if you want to i didn't want you standing up here your legs fall out because what nobody gonna come help me

on Mayo Road we negotiated and they took the deal and we paid based on our current policy with exception of ten property owners okay

They donated their property.

No, sir.

We wrote checks for $940-something thousand dollars. So what you're saying is everybody on that road got a check to build that road. Not everybody, but everybody but the people that didn't want the road. So that's what I'm saying. When you want your road paid, everyone, in my opinion, should donate. Mr.

Chair, that's the significance. but in my opinion that should be the first question the most significant slide is that slide no matter what you do with dirt those other numbers are the average of the last five projects we've done those are validated numbers that last bullet only thing you're gonna do on mayo road if they donated all the dirt they're gonna reduce that by nine hundred fifty thousand dollars the other hundred something engineer that's the significant bullet we've got a plan our plan right now says based on i thought we had a consensus that's how i hear different at the next board meeting i'm gonna prepare a memo mr attorney saying it's my understanding we're still following our plan on mayo road please present this to the board of county commissioners if they desire to follow the eminent domain policy right you vote yes or no at that point you do put that project on a shelf because the d.o.t is not taking it

if you if you don't go well chairman go ahead well i'm asking you right now i want if you'll provide this information to me i'd appreciate it i'm asking you in a meeting right now to provide me this information that way maybe i can reach out to so many people and talk to them i'm gonna lean on the attorney's advice for this are you good with that joe what the commissioner is getting involved in the real estate acquisition is technically against the policy that's

There's a non-interference with real estate transactions policy in the ethics code and in Florida statute. I understand what you're saying, Commissioner Ford, in terms of just reaching out and gauging their interest, but you shouldn't actually engage in negotiations.

I'm not going to negotiate. I'm just going to go talk to them and explain to them what we're trying to do. I can't make them a deal. They would have to make the deal. Correct.

Okay, go ahead, Joe. Good job.

i apologize so i think what we struggle with our acquisition agents struggle with and what i do struggle with is sort of the ambiguities in the policy like sometimes we're going to pay for it sometimes we're going to require it to be donated sometimes we're going to do a little bit of both all i ever hear is we don't want to do eminent domain so that kind of what can i do right like the only thing i can do is file an petition so and we all know eminent domain cost four five six times what the property really worth it's just the way it is in response to Commissioner Hollingsworth's question like I don't understand why people do that they do it for money because it's very very lucrative the attorneys make a lot of money the people involved who hold out generally make a lot of money and that's taxpayer money other taxpayers but understand that's Florida law Florida law is structured so that people are fully and fairly compensated for everything the government takes from them so if they say i really like my oak tree they bring an arborist out he says that oak tree worth a hundred thousand dollars unless you can find an arborist that says it's worth nothing you're gonna pay something so that's what we deal with i think in furtherance to commissioner ford's point and what he's asking for today and i want to echo that if we need to revisit the 2017 policy and articulate what the policy of this board is that's what needs to be the outcome of the workshop give us marching orders if you want it to be 100 donation all the time

that can be done if you want it to be we're going to do eminent domain now which is the other end let's do that we're prepared at least my office prepared to do whatever you guys want okay you have a lot of ambiguity right now commissioners if we could i just i i'm looking at the clock i'd like to give the public a little bit of time but what i would like to do real quick if i could because there's no doubt uh we i'm not willing to totally forget about mayo road there's been a lot of taxpayer dollars invested in that So on that specific road, I think we owe it to ourselves to come up with a plan, you know, how we're going to go forth on that. But I 100% support that we're going to have to amend this. But one thing I'd like to do, just while we've got everybody's eyes on us, you for him in the domain in any sense, Kevin, would you support him in the domain? No, no. Brock?

If it's like 10 people out of 43, yeah, I would do him in the domain. Brock?

No.

No.

i'm kind of like rocky now i'm in the situation where we got boxes and if they got one person or kid two persons and they got 25 people on there i think it should be if we want if they want it and i and i and i would go on to say that is the purpose of eminent domain well

that is the purpose of eminent domain that's the whole purpose of eminent domain and mr ford i wouldn't argue with you a bit because you are exactly right but and most of it i wouldn't let me let me just say this too most of the people and i say most of them they don't care about the property they want to just make all the money they can make off of that's why they go to eminent domain it ain't about the property lost a little bit of property and an eminent domain in

I'm gonna speak for myself. When I think of eminent domain is what we possibly could run into on the widening of the Baskin North. A major commerce road coming through this community for economic and whatever other values that it may have. Public safety, you know, you got a major intersection or something, eminent domain, but we're going through it right now at the fairgrounds. So that's what I look at the eminent domain. When you sit there and you tell a family that's lived on the dirt road, their family has owned property on this dirt road for 200 years. I'm fixing to take the farm, part of your farm, because I want to pay the road down here. I don't want to pay. That's where I struggle with it. Not saying that you're – can I agree with you? Well, here's the thing. It's a value to it.

It's a value to it. Here's the thing, Chairman. We just paid a premium for a little bit of property, a little bit of property.

at ellisville i'm talking about a premium 100 we might have been we might could have got that cheaper through women's domain if you look at it but we're not even going to get i agree i understand what you say rocky but yeah but that's that's it we're two different two different animals here so at this point in time uh kevin d are y'all clear on your marching orders okay no sir i'm not okay okay so i guess what i would like to leave here with and i'll do it in this order

this board and i know you cannot vote but maybe by consensus does this board want the team to go in and rearrange the way the current policy of 017 reads or are you satisfied with the current policy chairman i would say let's discuss this during the budget process another workshop

Well, at the budget workshop, we'll discuss how to move forward and if we want to set some money aside for purchasing in the domain or to put money aside so much a year to go towards buying right away or working on a road, you know, doing some engineering, whatever.

Because I think it's pretty well.

Because right now we have no money funded for that whatsoever.

I think we're just going to have to set aside time for that, and I agree with you, Mr. Ford. But I think it's, as you're thinking about this thing, building and coming up with another solution or something like that, I think it's, consensusly, we're not interested in eminent domain, I'm sure.

Mr. Chair, in the effort of time, I've heard a lot here. I'm going to get Commissioner Ford his list. The attorney's good with it. give him his list of remaining properties I would recommend the board to allow him a little time to see if he can do that quite frankly that's why I did not provide it I read the same language he told me I did not feel comfortable with that he says I can't so we will okay I appreciate your time Joel is this not public information can't anybody request this information

yeah that's what i thought anybody can request this information and for clarity i was asked about this earlier in the week i mean that's that's about a non-answer or not excuse me yeah okay the information it's a public it's public documents so commissioner board i did ask records custodian you know is is there an outstanding public record because that was my first question you and you know you didn't you didn't do it i mean it's okay that you didn't do it but there was an outstanding public records request What Mr. Williams explained to me was, I felt like I was being told to go gather this information. I said, okay, that's fine. He said, so I went to Kevin because I felt like I'd received the directive. I said, Chad, that makes sense. And yes, it can be provided to you. But the reason he went to Kevin is he thought he had been directed to do something. So he followed protocol. Everybody actually did what they were supposed to do. But you do need to get the information. There's no question whatsoever.

Mr. Krause told me all I had to do is ask for it. And that's a public record request.

and that is correct through mr kraus that's why i asked and i and i sent an email asking mr crossford and and again that was why i asked the records custodian did you put it in the system is it in the system because i wanted to know that again for for those who don't know anytime the county receives any public records request we have asked staff to direct that to the records custodian so it can be put in the portal that did not happen right and that should have happened even when you guys make a records request it should go into the portal that way we can keep track of it and that'll be correct

okay with that being said and uh we got another meeting at 5 30. i'm going to do the best i can to hear mr clipper i've seen you come up first and uh uh turn the uh clock i don't know where three minutes is come up here if you don't mind that way and keep it on the clock and then keep it on youtube thank you all right it's going to county boys we got to watch out moses clipper and i am wordy

I tell you just as a observer, y'all got a reputation here, all right? Live Oak City Council has a reputation. I watched the decorum take place in here tonight when the chairman, and this ain't personally anybody. It's just I know most of y'all pretty well already, and I watched the decorum bring this meeting more in order, and more was done because of it. And I'm real passionate about just about everything I say up there. So I understand, but with all of us doing that, it'll be better. And that's enough of that. The main thing, man, I am anti-big government big time, but the exception that I would consider, and I can't believe I'm even saying it, but when it comes to paving the road, if you ain't going to take, not cut through a person's property, the 200-year example was a big deal. I'd never agree to that but if all we're doing is going from dirt to pave and you got two-thirds up I think I would say if I sitting up there I think I would work for a percentage of the occupants on that road to consider that only and not encroach on their property none at all all right just just the established road and maybe if you had to widen for Practicality whatever that's the only exception I'd make because I am against that in domain The point that got me up here to speak, though, there was, I don't know, but y'all educated me. Mr. Kirby and y'all's discussion educated me a great deal on this road building. I know how to build a road, but I didn't know all y'all exposed me to. So I thank you for that. And I'm going to take you back to Suwannee County. I'm going to do some investigating. And this 360, not to defend anyone, but to clarify, I know for a fact, Mr. I mean, Miss Flanagan, she came on board with Suwannee County in September 22, as a grant a grant contract manager. Okay, she became the public works director, not long after Greg Scott became the county administrator in December 22. I don't remember the month exactly. But she she has been a well, i misspoke on that greg scott became a county administrator in december 22. and in january 26 is when miss flanagan became the public works director so she wouldn't and we need to have that that number down and we know to know what a mile road cost us and uh

That's what I want to say. So, Moses, if I could ask you a question. So, what you're saying is when this work was done, she didn't even have that job title then?

Probably not. Because it was done before the hurricanes. Oh, no, she didn't. Yeah, it was done before the hurricanes. For sure not. She would not know.

Okay, come on up, sir.

Mr. Chairman, county commissioners, I'm here.

Robert Gerhart.

3969 Southwest Malden Avenue. I'm here about Malden Avenue and Eglin Road. If y'all would all come out there, make a race with me and come out so I can show you just what's going on there. I've talked to Chad Williams, Cody Pitt, the supervisor out there, and then I had Rocky out there. And Everett talked me a little bit about this afternoon in here. The way they did that project, where I'm at, the lowest property on that whole subdivision and all the flood waters all come down on my property there's been so many washouts i've had to dig them out so i can level the ground enough so i can mow grass i'd like to see you all come out there and get this road done like it should be done because the way you got it now they're talking about they got these big drainage ditches we get a flood and rain that's all that's going to do and the way they got eglin Eglin is actually going uphill towards Malden, and that's downhill, so it's going to be a big dip in there. The water's going to lay there a lot longer because I have no runoff. I talked to Roger Little years ago about getting with the Suwannee River Management or whatever to put culverts under Malden. He said, well, they probably won't go along with that. But the road is this much higher than it should be. And I've talked to them when I was doing the, you know, putting the dirt down and everything. I said, y'all going to dig this up? They said, yeah, we're going to dig that up. And talking to Tad Williams and Kobe Pitt, they're saying it's elevation. They raised Eglin up another almost two foot. And Malden. You come out there and see it, you'll see that it's way too high. When I first bought my property over 25 years ago, where my mailboxes are at, Malden Road was even with the dirt where my mailbox posts are. And now it's up this high. And it's causing a flood to be a lot worse. And with it now, it's going to really be worse because it's going to have water laying there for a long time. So I need to come dig it back down. But I'd like to see you all come out there and get with me.

so i can meet with y'all out there because i've been arguing i can't get no results i'd like to get results on this chairman i've been out there and looked at it like i say i haven't shot any elevations and i'm not an engineer by no means don't claim to be but it looks like to me they could put a culvert under uh malden road and solve that problem And it does look like they built Eglin up about two foot. Yeah. And Malden. Even Malden. Hydroacres. You can see them. That's where the backside of Hydroacres runs into Malden Road.

The dirt road? Off of Bedrock.

Okay, I got you.

But you can see the dirt on Malden where they built it up even more.

We'll pass it on. Of course, Rocky can deal with Chad or whoever. Anybody else?

all he kept saying is elevation by the surveys the surveys if they went back to where it should be you know it would have been all the elevation okay thank you Mr. Gerhardt.

Seth?

Seth Lane county planner oh since we're actually updating the LDRs right now one thing that we have discussed so currently for you to subdivide your property, you have to have paved road frontage. One thing that we kind of toss around, and this may help in the future, is if someone is on a county maintained dirt road, allowing them to subdivide, which gives them that smaller density, five acres in A3 versus 10 to 20 acres, allowing them to do that if they donate the right-of-way. So if somebody's on a county maintained dirt road, right now they can do division plan, 10 to 20 acre parcels, but let's say they come to us and say, hey, I got 10 acres, can I subdivide this into two five acre parcels? Well, right now I have to tell them, no, you're on a dirt road, you have to be on paved road. But we could look at, hey, we will give you the two five acre splits, that will say they're five acres, if you will donate the right of way. So that way we allow them to split, to two five acres but they and give them credit for five acres but only if they will go ahead and donate the right way that's just an idea that I was for future just to go ahead and donate the right away to the count like go ahead and donate it they would go ahead and donate it it would be platted in it with the right away already established for

county that way it's on the road one thing one thing we need to be real careful about is like back when my daddy bought property down in fort white or near fort white or you know two

the whole road was his, his property.

So you got to be careful with that. They might've already done it. You know what I'm saying? We had 30 foot that they built a road on that was on our property.

No, right now we get people that have 10 acres. They're on a County maintained dirt road. They can split into two fives. No, you have to be on a County maintained a road. But I was thinking we pitched around the idea, allow them to split, but they have to go ahead and donate that right away. that way maybe down the road for the future for the future you might have you go to a road and now you realize you've let people subdivide and you got exactly you know they still get the credit for the five acres you know but it's 4.2 or 4.8 or whatever but now we already have a established right away for those people so this is an idea with the updating of the ldrs i know you want to start the 5 30 meeting but that's yeah you have a good idea chairman when moses was up while ago he brought something else to my to my

my mind I was gonna talk about this you know right now if you're on a private road as long as as long as 75% of the people agree to bring that up road up the current and attitude of the tax roll you know for us added to the property taxes another 25 don't have a say in it as long as 75% of them agree we do it if we charge everybody for it so you know why would we not do that on a paper

way it's important to think about okay at this time i'm gonna adjourn this meeting take a few minutes for everybody to go to the restroom and then we'll please make it fast