Plan & Zoning - Special Meeting

Good evening everybody. Uh, welcome to this special meeting of the Orange Zoning Board of Appeals on August 25th. My name is David Crowe. I'm the chairman of the Orange Zoning Board of Appeals. To my right, I have Wayne Garrett, Pat Panza. Our zoning enforcement officer, Jack Deersian. We have our recording secretary, Jenny Bowser. Actually, no, she's our secretary. I have our recording secretary, Bonnie Scat, who very unhelpfully doesn't have a sign in front of her like everybody else. We have our alternate member, Michael Shurachman. I can get his f last name correct, but I can't. I keep calling him Matt. So hopefully within the next 10 years, I'll get that right. We have Eric Oel Orzel, who's our one of our regular members, and Greg Manatalino, who's our regular member, and our town attorney is Owen Weaver, is with us this evening. Um, this is a special meeting for an appeal. Uh before we get started, I just want to lay down a few of the ground rules for everybody to understand. We do not do not make zoning board regs here. We interpret them. That's what we do. In cases like this appeal, uh we have a decision by our zoning enforcement officer to do something and our role here tonight is determine whether what he did is correct or not. For this game, we have some rules. Everybody needs to know what the rules are. We're going to tell you up front. Um, if you wish to speak, this is a public hearing. Everybody will be given an opportunity to speak. Everybody will be given an opportunity to speak. I promise you that. Okay? Everybody cannot talk at once. If you have anything to say, wait till the board acknowledges you, come up here and speak from the podium. Okay? When somebody is speaking from the podium, only people at this table will ask them questions. No shouting questions across the room at people. If you continue to shout across the room, either to put information or

to ask questions, you will be asked to stop. If you do not stop, you will be asked to leave. If you don't leave, you may have to speak to somebody to help you find the door. Um, again, if you're going to speak, please speak from the podium. Keep your voice up. introduce yourself by giving us your name and your uh your address so that we can record it for the record. And again, I promise you everyone will be given an opportunity to speak. Uh we have a full board tonight, which means four out of five positive votes will sustain. Yes.

Okay. Or or overrule and we're not dealing with a variance here tonight. So before we get started on this, uh, let me just ask a few questions of Jack, our Sony sponsor. Jack, was this appeal filed within 15 days of your decision? Okay. 30 30 days. 30 days. Okay. And it was filed by the agreved parties, right? It was not Okay. Um, we have a proper appeal with an A2 survey. Well, no, no survey required. We're just reviewing the Okay. the document issued. Okay. and notice was mailed to the adjoining uh uh not needed for this um only a variance on that but all procedure was followed in accordance with okay town attorney now we're having this public hearing within 65 days of the application right correct

and we're opening the public hearing within 35 days open the public hearing within 65 close the public hearing within 35 issue a decision within 65 this is why I have Jack with me so I can make sure we get everything right all right um so let me just start by asking what kind of uh district we have here that we're dealing with. Mr. Chairman, you have to address the adjournment or we'll get there. What district are we dealing with? Well, the this property is in a residential district. Okay. The residential district.

So, before we get started tonight, gentlemen, I have a a request from Kenneth Zorich Esquire, who represents the uh appellant in this matter. It says, "This officer represents the owner of 473 Ridge View Road, known as the property. An appeal of the decision rendered by Jack Demerion on July 1st, 2025, relating to the use of the property has been noticed for special meeting for the zoning board of appeals on August 25th, 2025. Please be advised that the undersigned and the owner's representative are not available to attend the hearing as a result of prior commitments. For that reason, we are requesting the matter be heard on the next reg regularly scheduled meeting. Your consideration is appreciated. Sign Kenneth M. Zorich. Um, so we have what appears to be uh an application for continuence. Now, my understanding is we have to at least open a public hearing within a certain amount of time here. Is that correct?

We do. We have to open within 65 days. Um, we are not butdding up against that number as of yet, but in an effort to have this issue come to a close in a timely manner, we scheduled a special meeting and uh that's why we're here tonight. Okay. Along with everybody else, u I'm going to ask our council about that. What what's your feelings on this?

Right. So, as Mr. Jmergian said, you have to open the the public hearing within 65 days. Um the applicant has a right to seek a continuance. You can't can't uh deny that that request in terms of you know they can make the request. Um there's no statutory provision that the applicant has to be present. Though I'd be remiss if I didn't advise this board that you know certain due process rights do attach an applicant, you know, if present has a right to cross-examine witnesses, put on their own uh put on their own witnesses and and documents in support of their position. Uh but again, there's no statutory provision that says they have to have to be here. So, um it's within this board's prerogative to vote. It's not the chairman's decision. It's not Jack's decision. It's not my decision to make. It's this board's decision to make whether or not they wish to grant the continuence. Um you do not have to open the public hearing. You can grant the continuence and open the public hearing at a at a later date. Uh and you do have a window for that. You're not right up against the 65day uh window. So,

all right. Uh what's what's your experience with if you can if you can help me out?

Right. Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I I look if if you proceed with the appeal this evening, um Jack can put on, you know, his case, so to speak. Public commentary can be received. Um the appellant or the property owner would have a right to appeal to superior court within 30 days after the note publication of the decision. Um, you know, there is a there is a strong possibility that the superior court judge would remand the case back for factf finding though I don't I don't wear the robe so I couldn't tell you exactly what he or she would do but that that is a possibility or the record could be supplemented at superior court or the court may decide that they can proceed with the record that is developed by this board. So those are your three three or four outcomes that are possible.

Am I right that they would have a right to appeal regardless of our decision on the uh yes the motion for continuence. So we could have the public hearing even if they were here and they could they could file a they could file an appeal. Is that correct? If you guys rule not in their favor for sure they definitely have a right to appeal court. Okay. Gentlemen, I'm on with the floor to discussion of this uh application for for a uh a continuence. Um how long ago did we tell him about this hearing, Jack? But it's not like this just came off. The notice is two is two weeks notice. So they've been aware of this for probably a little over two weeks.

Okay. And I don't see him waving any anything in case we run up against 65 days. Do you? I don't. Gentlemen, anybody? Go ahead, Wayne. Uh do they have representation here this evening? I don't think so. their attorney and the the the uh appellant are not here. Pat, well, I think it uh it would be prudent uh to um continue it. My opinion.

Anybody else? Any discussion? Eric, you anything you want to add? I gota say I'm inclined to go ahead tonight. Go ahead. Go ahead, Wayne. You are correct. Um, you know, they have the right to take an appeal regardless. The, uh, the public is all here. I think it might be good to, uh, to push this down the track. If we were to render a decision this evening, then we would have at least a paniply of legal options

that don't exist at this time. uh meaning possibly junctions or go ahead. You got something? I was just going to say that I agree with the chair. Any other comments, gentlemen? Okay. All right. So, with that, I'm going to have uh Jenny, if you'd call the role, and we're going to vote on this. Actually, I need a motion, don't I? I need a motion to uh deny the continuence request. Anybody want to make that motion? So moved. We need a second. Second.

I have a second from Greg Natalino. Uh Jen, call the role. Sure. Um Commissioner Commissioner Gar. Yes. Commissioner Panza. Yes. Um no. Mike will not be a member because we have full Commissioner. Yes. Commissioner Marino. Yes. And chairman. Yes. Just to clarify, yes. Is the is the confirmation of the motion to deny the continuence and continue the public hearing. So with that said, um first order of business to have Jack. Correct. We do actually have uh the review of last meeting's minutes before we get into it. If we could just I was going to say that

do that for housekeeping. Yeah. All right. I was going to say that for old business, but as long as long as we keep everybody up late. It appears first on the agenda. Okay. So, uh, gentlemen, have you had the opportunity to review the minutes of the last meeting? See a lot of shaking heads. I'll, uh, then I will entertain a motion to, uh, accept the minutes as presented. Make a motion to accept as stated. Need a second. Second. Got a second from Wayne. All in favor? I. I. All right. Okay. Now we can Good stuff. All right, Mr. Chairman, I you should open the public hearing and then I can proceed.

At this point, I'm going to open the public hearing with regards to Let me get out my legal notice here. I'm going to read this into the record. All right. Notice is hereby given that the Orange Voting Board of Appeals will hold a special meeting on Monday, August 25th, 2025 at 7 p.m. at the Orange Town Hall, 617 Orange Center Road to conduct a public hearing on the following edition number 1842 submitted by CLS Holdings 3 LLC for property known as 473 Ridge View Road. An appeal of the decision of the zoning enforcement officer has been submitted. Application materials are on file in the Orange zoning office. A copy of this notice has been filed with the Orangetown Clerk dated Orange, Connecticut this 11th day of August 2025. Dave Crow chairman zoning board orange zoning board of appeals. So with that like to call our zoning enforcement officer Jack Demer. Jack just introduce yourself.

Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh for the record, Jack Demerin, zoning enforcement official for the town of Orange. Thank you everybody for being here tonight. Um, as I'm sure we all know, we are here to discuss a violation order issued for 473 Ridge View Road. Um, an appeal has been filed of my decision to issue a violation here. Uh this initially came to my attention on uh June 29th when I received uh an email uh from a resident uh asking about the regulations that we currently have in place for short-term rentals, Airbnbs, bed and breakfast, things of that nature. Um pointed out the subject property to me and then upon investigation and stopping by the property um it was clear that this property was being used as a bed and breakfast Airbnb. Um so I issued a violation on July 1st um which the appellant then appealed within 30 days of that order. Uh the reason I issued this order is because in orange we have a regulation or our regulation state 38319 that any use in any of our zoning districts that are not specifically listed as permissible are prohibited. Airbnbs, bed and breakfasts, Verbbo, things of that nature. None of them are listed in article three of our zoning regulations, which is the residential district. Therefore, are prohibited by section 38319. So that order was issued um upon further investigation and looking into the holding company that is the property owner here. The principles of the property and any address associated with the property owners that I had access to. So with the information available to me, uh none of those addresses were in orange. So, it's clear to me that based on the information available, this is an not

owner occupied uh property and certainly at times based on testimony from residents that I received since issuing this order uh being rented to well more than four people. Now, owner occupied and four occupants are residential regulations which is part of article three of our zoning regulations. So issuing this order, I issued a violation of article 3. Um saying that again you do not meet the use standards here. These are not permissible uses so are inherently prohibited. You are after investigation seeing that it is not owner occupied. So they are not meeting any of the parameters for rental in that zone. Uh and they are also at times most of the time seeming to be renting to more than four people. So, with all of this taken into account, it seems clear to me that this is an order that should be upheld by the zoning board of appeals. Um, I know in my order I list bed and breakfast. That is an order that I have used in the past when I've dealt with maybe one Airbnb in the past four or five years. Uh, there was no issue with that wording. If the board feels they want to narrow down the the violation letter to specifically an Airbnb or, you know, something like that, I think that would be perfectly within the board's rights to accept, deny, or modify the order of the zoning enforcement official, which are your options tonight. Um, let's see. So, like I said, we had a listing online. Also, just for the record, this is a two-bedroom home on the assessor's card. It is being listed as a six-bedroom home that sleeps 16 plus guests. The reason we have limitations on bedrooms is because Orange is serviced by septic. There was no sixbedroom septic system put in here. Uh there was se there was a lot of work done inside

after looking at the listing that clearly was not approved by the uh fire marshall's office. the building department and like I said, septic-wise, health department is definitely uh you know, not up to speed on on this house. So, with all of that being said and the information available to me being laid out, again, I believe that this order should be upheld uh that this property owner is currently using this property for a nonpermissible use in the residential zone and should be asked to cease immediately. If anybody has any additional questions for me, I think that was about all I had.

Jack, uh, could you just tell the board uh what the reason for the appeal is, what their reason for appeal? Sure. Their their reason is they believe that a bed and breakfast or one that they're not operating a bed and breakfast, which is somebody in the property, you know, cooking breakfast for the people, the tenants that are staying here. that I I can't answer. But citing article three as a whole of which is the residential district, if the board were to try to narrow down that definition, then I would believe, you know, that's perfectly within your your rights to do so as a board. So, um just just to clarify, their defense is no, we're not operating a bed and breakfast. Is that

that seems to be their defense based based on the information available to me. Yes. Okay. Um, now I see in our package here, uh, there is an online business search for the owner, which is CLSE Holdings 3 LLC. Correct. Uh, that shows that this is in fact a business. Correct. That's correct. And that is the true owner of the property. It's not an individual that owns it. That's correct. So, as far as you know, they're not living there.

That's That's right. As far as I know, it is owned by a business, not a single individual. And as you could see from the paperwork, there is no information in that business lookup that says any of the principles or any of the names associated with this business have a residence or working address in Orange. Okay. So, I believe that's important to note, proving that it is certainly not owner occupied. All right. Now, go ahead, Pat. um by any chance uh uh did um the um um looking into as far as the septic system and stuff of that sort, did you get any information on that? What size is existing? It's a two-bedroom tank. Um

so it's probably under a thousand gallon tank, I I would assume so. And uh if they had 16 people, they would have to have five times what they have there now. better question for the health department, but after after speaking with them repeatedly about this, they have assured me that okay, this is a fairly sizable issue for their department. Well, I also want to clarify that point, Jack. You've got building and the fire marshall and that's correct. I know they are in the, you know, uh, process of drafting their own violations to be issuing to this owner. Um, I let them know that they may want to kind of see the results of this appeal before they they end up doing that. But all the applicable departments are well aware of this issue. All right. But we're not dealing with any of that.

Right. We're not here to discuss health issues or building issues. We are here just for the purposes of this. I just wanted to clarify that what the size was and what you know did they do any work on the septic system or any of that type? The only work that I'm aware of on this property has been unpermitted. Oh. So, okay. If they did, we certainly don't know about it. Now, Jack, I heard you refer to article three of our regulations. I assume that's regarding residential districts. Is that correct? Yep. And the very first thing in article 3 is uh section 383-26 permitted uses. Correct. Correct. All right. And it's your position that none of the permitted uses that are listed for an R1 zone are occurring here on this property anymore. That's correct.

So, if they were to try to say, well, we've got a single family residence on it. Our uh regulations define what a family is, don't they? I believe that they do. Okay. And it also says cannot be rented in that same section to more than four people at a time. That's the residential rules. The residential rules and that's with the owner living in the same dwelling that is being rented. Okay. And we also have in the next section a list of permitted uses, special permit uses. Special uses. Yes. It doesn't uh meet any one of those. Correct. Does not. Okay. So what we have here is the equivalent of somebody put up a single finger residence and they're running a

commercial automobile repair garage operation or nail salon or something like that. It's a commercial operation. I I read it the same way. Yes, sir. And would it be fair to characterize your cease and desist as cease and desist your commercial operations there? That's correct. Regardless of look, I don't know what it is either, but I know what it ain't. Right. And in that notice that the property owner received was a copy of the listing clearly showing that this is what we are having an issue with is this action. Uh and also was a copy of article 3 of the zoning regulations. So if they had any confusion based on that they they have everything in front of them to fully understand what the uh the order was was getting at.

They're charged with notice of that whether or not you send them a season to zest. Correct. Absolutely. Okay. Anybody else have any questions? Go ahead. Uh Jack, this may not be Germaine at the moment, but do you know how many square feet the house is? Believe the assessor not including not including, if I'm remembering right, it was a hair over 1,700. So I'm sure the building official and the fire marshall will address this, but occupancy for residential use is one occupant per 200 square feet. Just so everybody knows. So, if there are 16 people there and the house isn't 3,200 square feet, which it's not,

then there's an occupancy question. Turn just turn on your mic. I thought it was on. Sorry. There's an too many mics. There's an occupancy question as well based on the building and fire code. I would agree. Yes. Go ahead. Even with the basement, which is we know has not been permitted, they still don't meet the requirement. To the best of my knowledge, just about nothing here meets meets any requirements. But even to meet that requirement, they would have to have somebody living there. Correct. Correct. It would have to be owner occupied, right? So, it's got to be owner occupied and then you can have up to four people in a rooming house. So, they can't qualify as a rooming house. That's correct. Permitted uses. Go ahead, Matt. Mike,

they haven't stopped. Mike, they haven't stopped either. Correct. Uh, not to my knowledge. No, the the listing is still active. Um, in fact, I received a phone call from somebody today who I was by there today and there's there's four or five garbage cans out front. So,

yeah. Oh, yeah. It's it's absolutely to the best of my knowledge still being used. The listing is definitely still active. I have it pulled up. Um, I even got a call from somebody today who said I'm a I just booked this for halfway through September and I just heard about all this, you know, about this property. And so, it's it's certainly still being advertised and and utilized. Yes. Jack, I I just want to clarify. Section 383-14 definitions talks about a family as a group of related persons plus guests and domestic servants or no more than six people unrelated living as a single household unit. We don't have any of that going on, do we hear?

Not to my knowledge. No. Okay. Uh rumor and a border are not part of family under that definition. Correct. Now, um I heard something about a noise complaint. Was that the case?

Um the complaints that initially brought this to my attention. You know, noise, unruly behavior, uh the amount of cars being kept on the property. Um I know the police have been called to this property since this has become active several times. Um as far as zoning goes, you know, of course, the the noise ordinance is enforced the police department or who you call on that. Um, we don't have a rule for the number of cars that could be on a property. So, that's not necessarily a zoning violation, but that's the activity that, you know, clearly drew attention here to have us discover, you know, the the use problems that that exist today. We do have performance standards under 383-163. Mhm.

Uh, specifically in 383 165, it deals with noise. says, "No shall be transmitted outside the lot where it originates and the noise has a sound level, intermittent or beat frequency which would endanger the public health and safety or impair the safety or value of the reasonable use of any of those other units. Is that correct? We have that." That is correct as well. So, they could be potentially in violation of that. Absolutely. Yeah, I think the people who live in that area might be best to to speak on that, but I I would certainly agree with you. Yes. Okay. Uh, any other questions for for Jack? Go ahead, Eric.

Bottom line is the building's being used as a commercial building to generate money on a monthly, weekly, day-by-day basis from strangers just like a hotel. That's my understanding of it. So, at the bottom line, they're making money off this thing. It becomes a commercial property. You're utilizing as commercial property, which is a residential zone, which is hello. It's a no no. So, bottom line. Yes, sir. Go ahead. So, so that we're actually clear on everything, the septic system, to our best of our knowledge does not meet the uh criteria that they have there. That's correct. The basement which is finished has not been permitted. To the best of my knowledge. Yes.

Okay. Thirdly, the number of people there, it's been affirmed that it's more than four people that are in this building. Can confirm. Yes. Is that correct? That's correct. I know the uh a few weeks ago the fire department was called there for a gas leak and in speaking with them they confirmed that there was between eight and 10 residents I I believe is what they found. All right. Anybody other questions for Jack? Go ahead Eric. So you like if like a structure is inhabitable whatever they a town could condemn a property right. Sure. If if a if it's unsafe. Yeah. Ex Yeah. is deemed unsafe or a threat to public health and safety. Absolutely.

So, what is that process and was it ever thought about going down that road? It's more so for the building department. You know, if they if somebody's living in a house that has a caving in roof and is, you know, an immediate threat to them, the building department can, you know, red tag the door. Well, that's what I'm wondering. Right. Zoning zoning does not have, you know, I can't go on a property and padlock a door, right? you know, there's there's due process uh for zoning when something is not an immediate threat to public health and safety, which I completely agree that this is a nuisance and is not allowed in any capacity by our regulations, but is it an immediate threat to public health and safety where the uh the building department would go there and you know prevent access?

Well, I'm talking about the people that are actually occupying the house. 16 people are in there. If there's, you know, I don't know building code, at what point they have to install the sprinkler system, etc. That's a good question. So, at that point, can they just condemn it, shut it down? You know, the septic system is going to turn into like a fertilizer. Yeah, that's that's a good question. I know

I know that the building Yeah, I know the building and health department can take certain action, you know, just based on the listing. you know, the listing online gives these departments a lot of information that they would need in order to do, you know, not an inspection of the property, but give us reasonable evidence to say, hey, there are problems here. So, the building department, the health department, and the fire marshals department are all well aware of this and whether or not, you know, they're going to be I can't speak to their departments. I can't say on what action they're going to take, but they are aware and based on my discussion with them, there are violations for each of those departments here as well.

Any other questions for Jack? Uh, with that, Jack, thank you. I'm going to have you sit down. Thank you very much.

Okay. In keeping with uh protocol here, is there anybody here on behalf or is the the petitioner themsself, the appellent themselves here? No. Okay. Um so I proceed to let the public speak. Uh, with that, I'm going to ask that anybody who wants to speak in favor of the appeal, meaning in favor of the appellant, the owners. Should I go there first? Sure. Yeah.

Uh, if if there are any of those people, if they want to speak on behalf of the appellent, please come now. Anybody? No takers. All right. Well, then uh we'll start the line for anybody who wants to speak against the appeal. Okay. Does anybody want to come up here and speak against the appeal? Tickers in. There's a lot of a lot of a lot of faces here tonight, but no, nobody wants to talk. Okay. Um with that, uh then I guess we can close the public hearing. Yeah.

You didn't understand what you just said. You didn't understand what I just said. What I'm saying is that if you want to speak against the appellant, the owners, now would be the time. Okay, come on up. Okay, we'll start with this gentleman and then I believe this lady wants to speak next. We'll start just queuing up. Go ahead. Hi. Just introduce yourself to the board with your name and address, please. Mark Muro, 412 Clark Lane. Can you please spell your last name? M A T U R. Thanks. Sorry, I have a cough drop.

Um, I just figured I just figured I'd come up here and give myself as a resident um to give the numbers. So, I figured if you're going to tally how many people come up here for either for or against, I would just be one of the individuals that comes up here. Let me assure you that the evidence presented to us tonight will Oh, no. I understand that. Not not the numbers. So, I also I also spoke at the uh first selectman's meeting, which was the first time I ever spoke at a public forum of any kind. Well, I'm happy to be

Oh, thank you. So, so for those of you that weren't there, I just want to say that my wife and I moved to town about 3 years ago. Uh she comes from an even nicer, sleepier, well, maybe not nicer, but sleepier town called Monroe. Yeah, I'm kind of partial to Funro. Um, I come from New Haven and I come from a pretty terrible part of New Haven, at least when I was growing up.

So, like I said in the meeting last time, Orange to me is kind of a paradise. And I think that we need to be a little heavy-handed to kind of keep it a paradise. Um, I don't think there's anything wrong with short-term rentals, per se. you know, if you're renting three months to a room to a traveling nurse. Um, but we don't, like I said in the other meeting, we don't really live in a high trust society anymore. So, we can't trust people to make their own barriers. So, unfortunately, I guess we got to make barriers for them. Um, I also, if you're not familiar where a Clark Lane is, I'm in the beline of Ridge View. So, that means if one of these occupants decides to make a late night uh alcohol run and they miss the stop sign at the end of Ridgeview, they're going to end up in my daughter's bedroom. So, I'm a little partial to that, too. So, thank you for your time.

Thank you. would you have? Just remember to please introduce yourself to the board by your name and your address, please. Sure will. Hi, my name is Stacy Derisa. I'm sorry. Want me to spell my last name? Yes. Yes, please.

It's D E U R Q UI Z like zebra. a like Apple and I am the uh person who lives directly across the street from this hotel and I have painstakingly and probably much to many people's departments in this town want to stop hearing from me much like I want to stop being the person who has to report it. Um I had written something else because I didn't realize the order of what was going to happen here today. So, I just wanted to start by thanking the board for denying this and not kicking the can down the road. Whether it's my weekly phone calls that I have to make to the public works department, whether it's me sweeping glass that's in the street, I have put new tires on my car, new tires on my children's car. I've spent thousands of dollars installing a security system after we had drunk men come over and say very sexually inappropriate things to my school-aged children. I have the police department at my house at 4 in the morning. I have the police department at my house at 10 at night. I have the fire department through no doing of their own at my house because it's a neglected property and the people who live there have to call. We come home to find our mailbox blocked from the excessive cars that are there. We don't get mail because of it. Um and it has just been untenable for us to live there. It really is a hotel. Um, Jack touched on a bunch bunch of things, but I just wanted to say that as of now, uh, in four days, we have 250, a little more by the time the meeting happened, unique orange property owners who have all signed and opposed short-term rentals. I know that there was some chatter at the selectman's meeting about uh, the language needing to be tightened up, and I was really happy with how

thorough Jack was today. So, I just wanted to publicly come out and say thank you for that. That was everything. You have any questions for this? I'm sorry, ma'am. Could you just put on Could you just put on the record your address? Sure. 470 Ridge View Road. Thank you. I'm sorry.

Oh, I'm sorry. One last thing. Um, I did just want to add that the people who own the home wrote to me and I brought a copy of it for everybody, which I'm happy to give you if I'm allowed to. And I did post it on social media so probably a lot of people are following me for that. But she wrote that they only bought the home because she has cancer and she was using the pool for therapeutic purposes Monday through Friday. And then when I pointed out to her that I live across the road and I had photoed all of it, that that is not the situation at all. I've also had the benefit of being in the house in the basement that you're speaking of is what has been chopped into the four extra bedrooms. And if I had somebody that was a first responder in my family and you know, I certainly wouldn't want them going into a space that didn't have window egresses or to Mr. or elves point fire sprinklers or something to keep them safe. It seems like you would just be trying to rescue somebody out of a burning shoe box.

I sure do. I didn't know how many of you there would be. So, there's a six copies. I was going to say if you guys want to we just need to make sure we keep a copy for

that's fine. We'll we got one here. come back up and have just walk us through what it is you have here. Noticed it. Yeah. Ma'am, if you could just identify each page, what it is, just so the record's clear. First page is the listing on Airbnb, which as Jack stated is still up today. That happens to be a copy that I printed from the internet today.

I as well have made a video which I'm happy to show the board of myself renting the home for a week in December and my credit card transaction went through. I subsequently canceled it, but I made a video just to prove that they were lying after their meeting um okay

with Jim. And then these next pages are my interaction that I had with the homeowner through the Airbnb portal. Her name is Shaina and her property manager's name is Nelly. And this goes through explaining what they've done in their mind so that the Airbnb would be safe. And then she talks about having cancer and that's why she uses the pool. And then she begs me not to turn her into the town. It's long and extensive and that's really the highlight of it. And ma'am, that's two pages that that last section you're talking about. Yes. Okay. Just I just want the record to be clear. Sure. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else?

Yeah, that's interesting. Going once. You can keep it. This lady and I think there's a lady in the back there to my left. Go ahead. Just remember to introduce yourself by your name and your Lissa Pano, 637 South Greenbryer Drive. P E R S A N O.

Thank you. So, I just have to say that I'm not on social media. I don't know Stacy. I don't live in the neighborhood. However, this town talks and it's talking a lot about this issue and it is concerning. Um, I think everybody has an opinion of everyone's person or character. However, it's interesting that there are six properties that this company owns and there's one that's listed on Airbnb and they claim they're not bed and breakfast, but that's what Airbnb stands for. The one thing that people do say and they're talking about is this could very well happen in anybody's neighborhood, especially with someone that has a pool or they want to put a pool in or even just I mean, my neighborhood's great. We know all of our neighbors. Everybody watches out for each other. The reason why I'm here is cuz this is We can't let bigger associations or corporations take over this town that is very well known for being um peaceful, tranquil, and when you look at an Airbnb description, that's exactly what it says. But that's not what it's turning out to be. And if there's one person complaining, it's just a matter of time before more people start complaining, more people are affected. That's why I came. And I just wanted to make that statement that I don't I don't even live there. I don't even know. But it is concerning because if it's allowed for one person, then we're just going to be taken advantage of. I grew up in West Haven. I thought it was great, but it's happening in my parents' neighborhood. I mean, just flooded with corporations buying up houses and selling them and flipping them over and parties galore, trash galore, and there's no stopping it. And

then you have the squatters. Don't even get me started there. The students around the university leave for the summer, people come and squat, then they leave again. That's not something that would I would ever want to see in Orange. And there's a lot of spaces here. There's a lot of land that you don't necessarily know what's going on in these homes. So, if you have one person here who has a concern, it's only a matter of time that it just spreads like a virus. And I just wanted to thank you for bringing it to our attention. Thank you. Just a moment. Anybody have any questions for this witness? No. No. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Good evening. Good evening. Just make sure you introduce yourself to the board by your name and your address, please.

Anna Dolan, 601 Arrowhead Drive, Orange, Connecticut, 06477. Um, I am the owner of well, over the course of 20 years, three BRBOs, which have also been Airbnbs. I have never ever heard of such an outrageous story as this. It is totally incomprehensible. I through the course of these years I have hosted nobody only only the best that our society has to offer. Yale graduation families who came into town who lost their sister so they had to go to a funeral. another uh daughter who brought her mother over who was an elderly woman, couldn't walk. They wanted to find a beautiful place to be. Um weddings, people come into town, they're going to a wedding somewhere else, but they're using the house to get the party ready. These are all happy occasions. other families whose the father is has come back from being overseas for many years. Somebody is p is passing away soon. So they wanted a place where they could meet and just visit for one last time. I mean I can go on and on and on. I mean I've had multiple. I have another place out in California. Never ever ever have I ever had any problems. So for this to happen is I just is laughable. I mean it can't possibly be true because I've only had the best and I'm a person who owns the house but I also rent it out but I don't I'm not there when I rent it out because if I am there I spoil the whole thing.

It just ruins the whole karma of the situation. But I'm careful about who comes. I limit the numbers. absolutely no parties. It's totally forbidden. And I have other very strict regulations. But I also have to say that I have a unique property that I like sharing with people who come in to rent. Um, and I think that in a lot of ways if people are very careful and monitor very carefully, have strict house rules, I mean, and if neighbors are complaining, my neighbors don't complain. I mean they don't even know somebody some No, they do know that that somebody's there but of course if there was a problem they would notify me and that would be it. I have never ever ever and this has been over the course of about 20 years. So, I don't know whether I mean at this point I think the the the gist of this whole conversation is that well let's forbid all kinds of short-term rentals and that I don't believe because I think it has uh most all the most of the ones the only experience I've had is families who are who are want to have a nice time they're looking for a quiet place they're looking for a beautiful situation this town is a I think would be would benefit from it but again it has to be very carefully monitored by the homeowners. I know of other people who years ago would rent out their houses when they when they went away. So I I think my my request is that and also the um being able to limit having to limit the number of occupants to four is totally real unrealistic. What happens if you have a family with four children? They can't they can't use the house. I mean, really. So, I mean, you you have to be reasonable about how you choose and what you're going to do. But I do

think that it can be very beneficial for the town because it brings in a lot of good people who, you know, as their children grow, oh, I've been to this town. Oh, I've been to the carnival. I remember this. I remember that. the the concerts that they have on the green, you know. So, that's my request is that you you keep your minds open when the time comes for potential Airbnb requests. Not Airbnb. I'm not a big fan of Airbnb. Verbbo is, I think, is more is better. Airbnb doesn't uh Airbnb does not monitor monitor the person who's renting well enough. They don't even give you They don't even give you their Well, I shouldn't say that. I'm not going to say that. So, but anyway, so that's what I have to say.

Any questions for this one? Go ahead. You have properties in Orange right now that you use as an Airbnb. A one. Um, but it was years ago. Well, I can't tell you I I don't think I think I'll get I can't tell you how it happened, but as far as I was concerned, it was it was acceptable at that time. Where and it has been up until now. You still operate it now? No, I stopped a year ago. Oh, okay. But now I now I am renting it to uh to students.

I have a UNH student who is a cyber security major. He's a senior. This is my first time doing this. I've never done it before. I have interviewed students before, but I didn't feel comfortable. But this young man is mature. He is um very pleasant, very respectful. He's great. And I've had another inquiry. I've had increase. This is more This is University of New Haven, so you have a lot of international students. I'm just gonna interrupt you here. We're gonna try to stay focused on this appeal. We don't want you up here. Okay. But I just somebody mentioned students in the audience. Point. I heard you point. Okay. We're going to go. Go ahead, Eric. You got something you want to say? Uh just curious, where were your other short-term rentals?

Well, one was in Brford, but was no longer used as a rental, and it was our second home. And um I'm not Yeah. Was the other one in California, you said? Yeah. In Dana Point. It was a per It was a property that I purchased back in 1983 and I still have it today. And I go out there three and four times a year. I monitor it very carefully. I have a Ring doorbell and the thing is uh and cameras and I have um What kind of town is it? Is it like an orange or like a No, it's a resort town. It's okay. It's just south of Laguna Beach. I'm just live. We're going to stay focused on this. Yeah, that's fine. I'm answering questions. No, I just carried it. Okay. All right. Any more questions? To be rejected. I mean, it's outrageous.

Yeah. Now, now the deluge. Go ahead. I'll get you next. Should be a cease and dismissed. Hi, my name is Kim Makita, 531 Lambert. I've met some of you. You know, I just want to I wasn't planning on speaking, but I would just My last name, please. M I K I T A. Thank you.

I just really hope that we stick to the facts. This is over capacity for for both the house, the the amount of people in the house, the septic system, the neighbors do not appreciate it. We do not want these people here. We do not want this business here. I don't care if the woman has cancer. So, sorry if that's true. Um, it doesn't it's not relevant. It's that doesn't go into the zoning enforcement that we're talking about here. I don't care who's coming for a wedding. it does not matter. So, I really hope that everyone stays on topic, stays focused on what we are talking about here because we have all had properties. I'm sure all of us have properties in Orange. We've all wanted to do things with our owner occupied properties that maybe regulations have not permitted us to do and we felt it was unfair or it really sucked or whatever it was. and we listened and we didn't disobey the regulations because we are not special. We all matter. It's all for the greater good. So these people are not special. Let's just stay to it, right? That's all I'm hoping for. Okay. Sorry.

Just a second. Anybody have any questions for this witness? No. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. I had one more comment. Oh, it always starts like this. Few people won't go. It's like a bunch of paints all shoving on.

Sorry. Yeah. Lissa Pano again. What I wanted to clarify is when I'm talking about students where I grew up, where I was living, even as an adult, my personal experience is very similar to Stacy's. When you live across the street, when you have houses on either side and it's party time and it's 1:00, 2:00 in the morning, cars are speeding. Nobody wants to hit Mark's house speeding cars. What I'm saying is that short-term rentals for what whatever reason it you have to respect the residents, that's just being an adult. And this right here, whatever is happening in Orange, it shouldn't happen. It shouldn't happen to this town and it would be a very it would be a shame if the partying just continues and that's all I just wanted to clarify. I've had personal experience so I know exactly what Stacy's experiencing. That's all I wanted to say.

Just any any questions for this witness? None. Okay. No. Thank you again. All right. I had two. I'm going to start. I think the the woman in the green, you haven't spoken yet, right? Your turn. Hi, I'm Sheila Malay. M I L L EA 103 Rainbow Trail. I'm interested to know if the taxing of air RB Airbnb or short-term rental is different from a residential tax. The answer to that is I don't know. And we don't deal with that.

We don't deal with that. We're here just on the whether or not they're using their property in compliance with the zoning record. Gotcha. Thank you. Wait just a second. Any questions for this witness while she's here? No, you're good. Anybody else? Yes, sir.

Just remember to introduce yourself by your name and your address, please. So, I'm not a good public speaker. That's all right. My name is Christopher Miklas. I live at 308 Fairley Road. Can you spell your last name? Sure. M as in Milford. I C K L U S. Thank you.

Um I totally sympathize with this lady. You know, uh I definitely think that the law for short-term rentals needs to be tightened up. We don't need this happening in Orange. We don't need businesses coming in, taking over homes, running Airbnbs, VRBOs, whatever. Um, I sympathize with her because next door to me is a rental and it's a long-term rental from what I know. It appears to change on a yearly basis. That gentleman owns six homes in Orange. Okay. Some of them are not very aesthetically pleasing. Thankfully, across the street from me just sold. Different story. Thank God that worked out. Even though it's in an LLC, it did work out. Um, it just blows my mind. I work in healthcare, so I know a little bit about, you know, fire codes, occupancies, all that. It blows my mind how, you know, I know there's a whole legality behind this, but how the building department, fire department can't go in there and just shut it down like like that. No sprinklers, over capacity, septic, square footage. Does that does that even include the pool area? I mean, I know it's not living space. You know, the bu the basement has people living in it. It's not acquired as real living space if it was all constructed illegally. So, this is this is really concerning to me and uh you know, I hope it gets taken care of and very fast. All right, thank you.

Any questions for this? Thank you. Thank we done. Going once, going twice. Okay. At this moment, I'd entertain a motion to close public. Um, I actually have one additional thing. So, I'm sorry. No, fine. I have four or five total letters that were mailed to me. Four of them very strongly in opposition of this appeal. One of them fairly in the middle. I don't know if you want to just enter these into the record. I don't think we have to read through them everyone, but just so you are aware,

I think everybody noticed there were in their package correspondence to the board. Yes. Uh we're just going to enter those as part of the record. We can do that. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. We're going to enter these as part of the record. We'll make them public hearing uh um two all together two. Yeah. As one package now and entertain a motion to close the public hearing. We have a a motion by Pat and a second by Wayne. All in favor? I.

All right, gentlemen. Um, I've looked at the rags. Uh, I don't see any permitted use either special or otherwise that allows this particular corporate entity to use this property as they're using it for a commercial enterprise. I'd entertain anybody. Anybody else got anything to say about that, Pat?

Yeah. Well, to your point, uh I think uh there the square footage is well under the allowable. The uh basement is clearly has not been permitted. Um thirdly that u the number of uh people uh and causing uh and I guess there's history there uh with the police department uh and other agencies uh on this uh particular uh property. So um this is a matter of uh we are looking at this. Jack made the correct uh you know decision as far as that. I would say that uh he's all within line of uh his duties to do uh for the town of Orange and we this is not an acceptable application of the residential area. Wayne.

Um, I don't think the building, fire or health is the consideration, though it's down the road a consideration. I think right at hand today is whether or not um Jack's order, his cease and desist order is consistent with the regulations. And since, as you mentioned, this is not a permitted use, I feel that Jack's presentation, his summary is consistent with our regulations, and I would not be in favor of approving this request.

Mike, Eric, I agree with Wayne, you know, on the the same page. Um, I do have a question. Can I I guess the attorney question. Yeah. So if you if they come back and we modified the the the verbiage for the bed bed and bath u bed and breakfast, I'm sorry. Can that be countered again or

Right. Great question. So this this board has jurisdiction to hear appeals. You have the ability under the statutes to approve, deny or modify a zoning officer's decision. Um this is a denovo review of the case meaning you step into the shoes of the zoning officer and you have to make a determination based on the factf finding whether or not the facts um you know how they apply to pertinent zoning regulations. So um you could take the facts that you heard here tonight you can take your knowledge of the zoning rags and you can cor again you can accept or you can just approve his order. you can deny his order or modify it. Uh and then they have a right to appeal to superior court. Um you also have a right to modify the terms. You could give them a reasonable time to come into compliance should you decide to modify the order.

Hopefully that answers your question. Thank you. Thank you. Anything else, Mike? Are you I just enjoy the fact I'm getting your name right. Only took three times. Eric, you got anything? Yeah, I was going to say 100% agree with Jack and his decision and what he went over there and what your findings were and um they're running as a business and using the property as a hotel and it's not a hotel and that's bottom line. Great.

I agree with Jack's decision. I also agree with Pat and Wayne's comments. I think um the only thing I'd like to add is maybe we should modify the order a little bit, gentlemen, and that uh to to maybe back it up to 30,000 foot level and say they're running a commercial enterprise over there, which is not permitted under our regs.

That's correct. uh that they are not um there's no use permitted for an R1 zone that they are that they're using over there or that they're meeting over there and that uh they may and and we will that they I'm concerned about the noise element um that I raised. We may want to address that at some point. I don't know that we can do that now. Could we? No, you don't think so? Uh, I mean, Jack's order cites the article three, so Okay. So, we'll stick with I haven't memorized it, but unless the noise portions in there, no, it's in article 11. So, we're going to start with

I think I think we'll the the only change we'll make is we'll modify Jack's order to say they are to cease and desist all unpermitted activity. Would that be a way to say how would I need to help? Mr. Mr. Chairman, is your suggestion based on the evidence that that this board received tonight in terms of the um Airbnb listing and the testimony by Mr. Demerian and the testimony of the public with respect to um the the how title is held and um who who is occupying the the property. Yeah, I think based on the evidence we've heard, right, that you just cited and you said it better than I could, so I'm not going to repeat it. Right.

Uh that's why I have him here. um that based on that we should modify the order to go ahead Pat you want to take a step I think I think you should also premise that uh this property is not occupied by the owner of the property and the the way the regulation states that they they are supposed to be occupying it with four people that are not related that's not the case here so it's clear that they're running a business not for the you know being a residential in and and it's in a residential zone. So whether it be an Airbnb or VR OB, it all complies to the same.

See, I I I don't want to get that fine with it. I think I'd rather just tell them cease and resist all commercial operations there because they are a commercial entity and they are because if we get narrowed down to one specific part of the Well, isn't it clear under 383? 383 there's no specific use and I think that one we'd stick with. So, um, the other thing I'd like to discuss is enforcement time. Um, we have the right, and I believe this is true, to to come up with a time frame, which they have to come in in compliance, right? You could provide the the owner with a period of time to come into compliance with a modified order. Yes.

Now, they've already been put on notice by the cease and desist, so I don't think we have to give them much time, but I' i'd say we give them 10 more days to come into compliance. And if they don't, then the legal uh the legal ramifications, whatever those be, can be visited upon them. Go ahead, Pat. The problem with that, they got other people coming in. Okay. No, I I I know who cares of just saying at the end of the day, you know, if they can, they got 10 days, you know, they're either going to have the people come there or give them the money back. That's all I'm saying. So, do you want to cut it down or or they don't or they don't? Jack, this is deliberation. deliberations. So, do you want to cut that time down?

Again, we all care. I mean, I understand that, Wayne, but at the end of the day, I think we should cut down the amount of days give they've already been given notice. I I think it I think we should cut it down. You say immediate compliance. Immediate compliance. Anybody in anybody have any more discussion on that point?

Go ahead, Wayne. Actually, even though I'm not concerned about their future visitors or their business uh model here, I was actually going to say that um either somewhere between your suggestion of 10 to even 14 days to come into compliance. Uh there's a holiday weekend coming up and other things. And I think at this board, we've all been very, very fair as long as I've served on this board. And I would tend to agree with your stipulation of 10 days. And I would even entertain a couple more days. But okay,

I think that I think the regulations are clear and I think Jack's actions have been uh precisely according to his charge. Okay. Jack, you gave him 30 days to come into compliance with your Mr. Chairman, deliberations, you can't ask. Jack, correct. Go ahead.

Again, I understand your position uh um on uh this whole situation. If the um if Jack has already issued a cease and desist, that is your notice. Giving him more notice really is not going to make a difference either way. They haven't complied yet. So my point is, you know what? Let's cut right to the chase. Cut it off now. Let them come back. If they're going to appeal, let them come back. But in the meantime, you stop them now. That's I I agree with Pat. I think the cease and desist order speaks for itself. Yeah. Okay. I'm Dave. I'm easy. I'm easy.

Uh with that, I'd entertain a motion. Quick question. Go ahead. I have a quick question. What's You give them zero days. What actually stops them? They well, while this appeal is pending, it uh the appeal itself under the statute stays any enforcement action. They have 30 days to appeal to superior court. If they don't do that and they're continuing to be out of compliance, the town has a couple options. We can go to court for an injunction. Jack can start citing them under the citation ordinance. Um or they come into compliance and they stop. But your question assumed, not further non-compliance. Okay.

Okay. So they So that answers that question. They're getting it anyway. So we might as well go ahead and just say immediate. That's the way I would put it. Jim, okay, gentlemen. Uh I'll entertain a motion then. Go ahead, Pat. You want to I make a motion that a cease a cease should be immediate at at this portion of time. They've been given enough notice uh within Jack's uh um original documentation. So, I would say that uh there's enough evidence here to uh substantiate Jack's position. Yeah. Mr. Pan, do you would you like to make a motion to approve, deny, or modify the orders?

I'm going In other words, I am going to When you say deny, deny their application. No, no. It's with with respect to the order. So, I'm happy to clarify. If you were to move to deny that, that would be saying Jack was wrong. That's correct. That's clarifying. If you move to approve or accept, then you're going to approve it based on correct based on the four corners of of the order. If you move to modify, you can change, you know, the four corners of of the order. So, I make a motion to approve as stated. Okay. Not modified. So, we want to approve Jack's You make a motion to approve Jack's

order as stated. We're not going to modify it to include to to change Go ahead. Yeah. I think from our conversation previously, we wanted to modify. Yes. But so we want to approve. Let me let me let me see if I can clarify this. We want to approve Jack's action and modify it that they cease commercial activity on that premises. If that's the modification, then I agree with that. Yes. Okay. And with enforcement to be immediate. That's correct. Does anybody want to make that motion? Wayne, you want to make that motion? I need a second. Second. Second from Greg Natalino. Sorry, I'll get you next time.

All right. Uh Jenny, would you please call the role and we'll get everybody's vote. So, well, just to clarify, a yes vote will affirm the motion to affirm Jack's affirm and modify Jack's uh action. Right. With with a cease immediately. Yes. With immediate. Okay. Okay. Commissioner Garrett. Yes. Commissioner Panza. Yes. Commissioner Riselle. Yes. Commissioner Nino. Yes. And Chairman Crow. Yes. Passes. All right. So, the motion has passed. Uh the issue. Jack, your turn. You do what you need to do. Yes, sir. I will work with Owen from here. All right. Um

just so the public's aware, the or the order as modified has to be published um in newspaper of general circulation. So that New Haven Register is where we do it. That was actually the right part. I was going to So, you stole my It's all right. I've been letting him talk all night. All right. Uh, is there any more business to come before the board this evening? We hold on, please. Now, with that, I'd entertain a motion to adjourn and get everybody home before 9:00. Eric, you want to you want to second that motion? All in favor? I I Good night. Have a safe trip home everybody. Good night to you out there in TV land.