Council - Regular Meeting

I'd like to welcome everyone to the December 1st meeting of the Marian Town Council of Marian, Virginia. I'd like to welcome everyone here. Seems like we've got a good crowd tonight. We've got a lot of interesting stuff going on. Uh want to say welcome to all the folks watching from home or wherever in the world you might be. You're always welcome in Mary and Virginia. We will begin with our invocation given by Chief Tester. May we all stand if we're able, please. Let us pray. Dear heavenly father, we'd like to thank you for the blessings that you blessed upon Marion. We ask you for your patience of wisdom to go along with us in serving our community and treating others fairly with dignity. We ask for your grace and continued blessings as well. In your name we pray. Amen.

Amen. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Again, welcome. We'll begin with the roll call. I see everyone is present and accounted for on council. So I believe we can dispense with formal roll call there and uh we will move ahead to the uh minutes of our November 16th meeting and their approval. Second.

We have a motion and a second. Any discussion of those minutes needed? All in favor? Please raise your hand in the affirmative. And the minutes are approved. We need an approval of the agenda for tonight. Are there any corrections or additions? Okay, I'll second that.

Okay, we have a motion, a second. Now, there are [clears throat] no additions, deletions, or any changes to the agenda that we know of. We'll go ahead and vote on that. All in favor of approving the agenda. Okay, we have an agenda approved. We have a public hearing scheduled and uh we have that as our first order of business tonight. It is on our proposed lording ordinance and I am going to uh relinquish that to uh anyone in our ordinance committee or the town manager whomever would like to take the point of that. [clears throat] I think Todd is

Todd. Okay. I'm sorry I missed your talk, but please thank you, Mr. Mayor and members of council. On September 15, 2025, I was directed by council to draft a lording ordinance. After I was given that directive, I went and searched state code and state code section 15.2-926A 2-926A states that any locality may by ordinance prohibit lording in, up, on, or around any public place, whether public or private property. Section B of that same code states that the punishment for violation of this ordinance not to exceed a class 3 misdemeanor. The definition of Webster of a lording uh lording is to stand or wait around idly or without apparent purpose. And with that being said, what I had, what I've done is I've researched other localities, lording ordinances that they had. I took two or three of them that was around here, Bristol, Wfields, just a couple that that's closer to us, and I took those and stripped it down to what I felt was reasonable for Marion. Now, I will preface this by saying that this that this ordinance does in no way, shape, or uh or form uh infringe on anyone's right to a peaceful protest which is covered under the constitutional rights. But, u would you like for me to read all this or are you good with that? My my throat's a little scratchy. I will if you want me to.

Good. Pardon? Good with that. Okay. I want somebody. You want somebody else to read it, too? I I'll read it. I'll read it.

So, the the proposed section will be 46-1.1 lording or prowling. [clears throat] It shall be unlawful for any person or persons to stand, gather, or lord on any sidewalk, street, public ground, or public way in the town of Marion in a manner that obstructs, hinders, or impedes free passage or access to or from any place of business, institution, public building, or property. No person or persons gathered shall refuse or neglect to move, depart, or allow free passage after being asked to do so by the owner, lease, tenant, manager, or occupant of the pre of the premise obstructed as described upon the order of any town police officer. B. It shall be unlawful for any person to hide, wait, or lord near a private dwelling, apartment building, or other residence with the unlawful intents to secretly observe the occupant. [cough and clears throat] C. It shall be unlawful for any person to lord in, about, or any public restroom for the purpose of engaging or soliciting any lewd, lavishness, or unlawful act. D. It shall be illegal for anyone to lodge in any building, structure, or place, whether public or private, without the permission of the owner or the persons in possession or control thereof. E. [clears throat] It shall be il illegal for any person to lord in or around any restaurant, tavern, or other public building as used in this subsection. Lorder means to without just cause remain in a restaurant. remain in a restaurant, tavern, or public building, or to stay on the property immediately adjacent thereto after being asked to leave by

the owner, person entitled to possession or control thereof, or by any officer. It shall be unlawful for any person to sleep in any public park, on any public benches, in a public square, a public sidewalk, or to park or remain parked in a motor vehicle at any public place or any place open to the public to engage in any conduct prohibited under this section. Any individual found [clears throat] guilty of this violation or any part of the section shall be guilty of a class three misdemeanor. Thank you, Tyler. You're welcome.

Um, now the U motion as written has been read into the minutes and uh this is a public hearing. Uh, [snorts] so we do have a couple of members of the public that have signed up to speak at the public hearing and also I will open the floor to other people that uh were not aware that uh we would like for you to sign uh the sheet. The first person that signed was JS Sale. And JS, if you'll approach the podium, give us your name, address, and the floor is yours. JS [clears throat] married most my life. Live at 337 West Main Street. And I it just [clears throat] uh amazes me. I don't go looking for these things, but today at 1:30, I started in the post office. There was a vagrant laying there in the vestibule, sound asleep. I'm assuming I'm assuming he's sound asleep. I called 911 and the 911 operator said, "Well, was he breathing?" And I said, "Quite frankly, I don't know because he was soundly gone." And and I said, "The other reason I don't go and check is because I know some of these people are schizophrenic individuals, and the last thing I want to do is wake somebody up coming coming out of a deep schizophrenia coma." So, I called 911 as I said and they asked me if I had done all these things and I said I haven't done them and I'm not going to do them because some trained people need to be on the scene for this and especially mental health people and that's one of the groups that I have

been really um disappointed in because I don't think they're doing their job and I would like to be see them being forced to do their job if they refuse to do so. But um at 1:30 today, there was a man sound asleep. I don't know what he was. He was pretty well-dressed. Uh I didn't have any apprehensions, but I left the message and I don't know what happened. I've just run into these things um by happen stance, but I think that's a terrible introduction to the town of Marion that you go to your post office and there lies somebody and and these are not just these this is not just a oneoff event and it happens more regularly than any of you think. why I'm the unfortunate one that stumbles over it and then comes to talk to you all and see you about the fact that there needs to be some corrective action taken. And I thought I haven't been here for some time. You all probably have noticed because I'm a pain in the pain in the side, but I thought we had done a you all had done a pretty good job eventually early in the fall of helping resolve this situation. But I if somebody was out there this at noon today, the problem hadn't gone away. And I just hope I don't stumble over one again in this kind of situation because if my task is to check them out and find out what kind of shape they they're in, somebody around here is not doing their job. And as I said, I don't think mental health is doing a very good job in dealing with some of the because

I I can't help but escape the thought that this guy this afternoon was somebody that had an appointment with mental health and then came down for a nap. But I hope you will continue working on this and this is the prime time for you for you to be working on it because it's the winter time and it's usually pretty calm and think this time of year. If it goes on until next spring, it's not going to be a good situation. So I beg you all to continue to work on the matter and u resolve the situation to the best of your ability. Thank you.

Thank you. Next person that we have scheduled uh or interested is Tom Hower. Tom. Oh, yes. There you are, sir.

Thank you, I wrote notes. I usually don't do that. So, I've got a lot to say and I wanted and I appreciate JS's comment up, but I will I do want to commend the police department. We had a an individual that who was having a mental health crisis walking down in front of my house. I called the police and they were there in 3 minutes and they addressed the problem and they took him to a mental health facility. I understand. So they it's all bad as far as I'm concerned. My name is Tom. I live 218 North Church Street. Uh I want to first of all preface my remarks by noting I'm a land owner in u Marian in downtown Marian. I lived corner church and Lee Street. I've been there for 40 years. I also co-owner for an apartment complex down uh on Main Street which has considerable uh frontage on both the river and Main Street. Uh additionally, I walk a lot in Marion. You may have seen me cruising around. I like to walk down to the post office, to the hardware store. I'm frequently travel almost on a daily basis. And I got to admit, in the 40 years that I've been here, I've never felt threatened or unsafe in the town of America. U that's just a just a flat statement. U and I just want to tell you I am highly opposed to this ordinance. I believe it is largely unwarranted. I believe it's a violation of civil rights and very significantly it has huge potential for unintended consequences and abuse. I'm concerned that this is an exclusionary discriminating ordinance

designed to clean out folk deemed un undesirable from marrying streets. I think that at the re that's what this thing is all about. at its roots is an effort to eliminate folk that don't fit acceptable criteria of economic status, social behavior, gender identity, or other characterizations. We can do better than this. I'm concerned, and I'll get into this in just a minute, that it's a violation of first amendment right to peacefully assemble. The right that we all have is guaranteed in the constitution. [clears throat] Unless you think that's a hypothetical issue. I have about five or six people here that'll back me up. On October 29th, we were demonstrating and an individual individual from Smith County somewhere called the sheriff's office and said, "These people were out here demonstrating and they are violating a a uh loitering ordinance." They in turn called the state police. State police came out and talked to us, ran us off for that day. Although they did cooperate us to the extent that they said we will investigate this. They investigated it and they found that the uh lawyering accusation was facious that there was no basis to it and we are free to continue doing what whatever we want to do in terms of demonstrating. The point is if you have a loitering ordinance and this is a very subjective document. I mean if you read this thing one person can read it and they get one interpretation another person can read it and they get an entirely different uh interpretation. I like to cause in in in this particular document it one of the subjective issues is without cause or without without just cause. What does that mean? One person thinks one thing

and one person will think another thing. So this as far as I'm concerned ordinance uh is a challenge to our constitutional right to assemble. As a minimum, this ordinance must explicitly state an exemption for the right of people to peacefully assemble to petition the government for redress agrievances as required by the first amendment of the constitution. As a minimum, if you guys accept this ordinance, you must put that in there because it's not clear in this ordinance that the right to assemble is guaranteed. Furthermore, I want to look at some of the other specific clauses. Section A, we talk about gez. No person shall or person shall gather or refuse to neglect to move, depart, or allow free passage after being asked to do so by an owner, leasey, tenant, manager, or occupant of the premises. What authority does an owner, leasey, tenant, manager, or occupant of the president's of a premises have to order somebody on private on public property to move along? From my way of thinking, that's a law enforcement issue and it should be handled by a police person. They are trained to execute the law impartially and fairly to all persons. If you've got tenants, occupants, owners of property uh enforcing this ordinance, each one of us is going to have a different opinion on what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. We all have our own internal prejudices, right? And this lack of definition and allowing these individuals to enforce this law is just an open invitation to discourage.

[clears throat] It's not fair and it's not just and if you're going to if you're going to have a law enforcement uh action, it needs to be executed by someone who's trained to do it in a just and fair manner. Uh I just a couple others that I'm concerned about. It shall be illegal for a person to loiter in or around any restaurant, tavern, or public building. You get that? It's illegal for any person to loiter in or around any restaurant, tavern, or public building. This is clearly a civil rights violation. Freedom of speech and assembly is assured in the constitution. All persons have the right to gather in public places and express their first amendment rights of free speech.

There is a condition the second sentence which Todd pointed out is used in this subjection. Loiter means without just cause. What does that mean? You might have a definition for with just cause. He has another definition for with just cause. I am not convinced that this ordinance will not overrule my first amendment rights to gather and express myself in in accordance with the first amendment. Here again, if you adopt this amendment, it must clear explicitly state an exemption for the right of the people to peacefully assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. If I read this thing, if we're out front demonstrating on town hall on the sidewalk legally doing so without uh impeding progress, somebody can walk out of the town hall and say, "You guys got to move on. It's not clear to me that that's not what this thing says." Or if we're protesting in front of the courthouse and some the janitor in the courthouse comes out and says, "I don't like you guys being here. I think you ought to move on according to this ordinance." as I read it,

they need to move on. We'll have to move on. So, it's I feel it's clearly a violation of the first and then we get to sleeping. Okay? And I want you all to think about this because it goes to what I feel is a major flaw in this ordinance and that has to do with selective prosecution. Okay? So this thing says if you remain in a parked motor vehicle at any public place or any place open to the public, you're subject to violation of this ordinance. All right? So we know RV pe RVs come to Walmart parking lot all the time, right? People stay there, they spend the night there, and then in the morning they take off. Maybe they buy something at Walmart. They're violation of this ordinance if they do that. So, what does that mean? Now, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a police officer, so give me a little slack here. But if you're not going to arrest that person in that RV, you're doing a selective prosecution. You are ignoring this ordinance and you are putting the police in a pretty tentable position, uncomfortable position because they have to decide who am I going to enforce this ordinance against and who am I going to ignore it for? Am I going to enforce it for the Ry Ry Parker in uh Walner parking lot or and how about the guy in JS's case? How do I handle that? Where do I draw the line? And here again, it's very subjective and I think it's it's fraught with the potential for uh selective prosecution and discrimination. One more point and then I'll move on. That has to do Well, I guess I already

said it. Yeah. So, I'm down at the Riverbend Park and it's a nice sunny day and I lay a blanket out and I fall asleep and I take a nap. you have to arrest me. If you don't, you're guilty of selective prosecution. So, if you go by this document and you you agree to it and you you agree that the law applies to all people equally, you got to arrest me because not to arrest me means that you're not enforcing the law equitably for all persons. It's that simple. So, I think man, I'm really concerned about this. I think you're winging into grounds where you're uh you're subject to a lot of selective prosecution and discrimination of our population. We can do better than this. This is a simply an ordinance to clear Marion of people that don't look like they should look like or don't act like they should like. Thank you very much. appreciate your attention,

Tom. Thank you. Okay. And I did say that um if anyone else would like to speak, uh Pastor Kayla,

I am Kayla Kyle Holtz. Um I live at 102 Sprinkle Avenue and I am the pastor of Ebenezer Lutheran Church here in town. A reading from Matthew 25. Then the king will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my father, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was ill and you looked after me. I was in prison and you came to visit me." Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you? or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in? Or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison and go to visit you? The king will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in. I needed clothes and you did not clothe me. I was ill and in prison and you did not look after me. They will also answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or ill or in prison and did not help you? He will reply, truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. my biggest issue with the ordinance and I appreciate all that um Tom had to share. Um so I want to focus in on um section F um that she'll be unlawful for any persons to sleep in any public park or on public benches or in a public square or on public sidewalk or to park

or remain parked in a motor vehicle at any public place or any place open to the public and to engage in any conduct prohibited under this section. Um, I think that I from my reading of this, this really does focus in on the unhoused population that we have in this community and we know that we have a rather large unhoused population in this community for our small town. Um, and I understand the frustration surrounding that. I understand the frustration um, and concern in finding someone sleeping um, in the post office. I understand that frustration. Um, I understand it very well. Myself and other pastors um have spent years, hours upon hours, money, our own money, helping members of the unhoused community with very little positive return from the people who we have helped. I have been cussed out, lied to, stolen from, and I had to carry a woman bleeding out, an unhoused woman bleeding out from a miscarriage to a car to get her to a hospital. I have had to turn away people breaking my own heart when we had no more money to give. And yet, we have continued to still try to help the unhoused community. We continue to help and advocate for this unhoused community with very little help from local or state leadership. I have heard time and time again how government officials shouldn't be in charge of helping the unhoused, and that's fine, but you shouldn't hinder them either. The unhoused population is not just going to go away because they are moved off of the Riverwalk property or because we passed this ordinance. Pastoral and community leaders are doing what we can, but we need more help. We need you members of council and you mayor to advocate for the least of these. I imagine most people in this room identify as Christian. We even opened with a prayer before now. And yet there

will be still be people who argue with me about this and argue that Jesus didn't mean what he said when he very explicitly called us to help the poor. There is no getting around this. There is no mistransation of the text here. We are called to help. And I understand that we need to keep people safe. I understand that this isn't just about the unhoused community is about the community at large. But we don't help anyone by trying to make life even harder for the people whose lives already hang in the balance. For the people who already are pushed aside and are trying to be forgotten by our wider community. There has to be another way. But homelessness is not going to just go away. And the unhoused are still human beings. Not just they are not public nuisances just to be hidden away. so that we can pretend they don't exist, but something else needs to be done in order to help the people who are unhoused and are struggling. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. And the floor is still open. Um I saw Charles first. Billy, I'll get to you in just a second. Sure,

Mr. Hayden. My name is Charles Hayden. South Church Street. I had a few problems with this. I'm going to go back on a little bit of history in the process at this morning. I'm gonna start out by reminding every one of y'all that the law clearly says before you can sit in the seat you're in, you must be a citizen of Mariam for 30 days. Well, I know this is a backdoor way to get rid of the homeless, but they're here 30 days. They're a citizen of Marian. So, you're discriminating against a group of citizens. Now, my question is about the importance. These pictures that I'm having y'all to look at, most of them were taken during the pandemic. Well, if you look at the pictures, the town of Marian thought it was prudent to block the sidewalk. I don't think one or two people standing around talking is blocking the sidewalk. You also, if you look at the pictures real well, not a single person is lording. But you do have benches for people to sit on and lord because whether you're shopping, resting, or whatever under this law you are trying to do classifies as Lord. So, I'd be ashamed of myself to try to pass

an ordinance when you proudly in this council meeting proudly told about putting those benches out there for the convenience of the public to sit at. It's a disgrace. This lottery is a total disgrace because not only you invited the public to sit on Main Street. We all know and you won't say it, but the fact is you're trying to get rid of a class of people that is legally citizens of this town if they've been here 30 days. Good luck with whatever your conscience is.

Thank you, sir. And Mr. Sandber. Bill Stamper, 659 Spruce. You know, I I wasn't going to say anything and I wore my my Mayberry shirt. I don't know why I wore this tonight, but this lording, you know, uh, law, you know, that's trying to be passed. It reminds me of an Andy Griffith EP episode. It had this hobo. He was there. If he stopped, Barney arrested him. If you started walking, Barney arrested him. So, if you're going to get people for lordering, when's vacancy coming in next? I mean, if they're just standing around and they're, you know, out here on the sidewalk, you know, standing there talking or whatever, that's lording moving without anywhere to go, that's vagrancy. So, we all should stay in our houses. So, if this is passed, when when does the vagrancy law come in? Thank you. Uh, Mr. Huber,

I'm Bill Huber. I live at 228 North Church Street. And um most of what I was going to say has been said by somebody else. So I don't need to elaborate too much on anything else except to suggest that the the park-like settings that we have in town for um for folks to relax and even perhaps take a noon time nap or an afternoon late afternoon nap. um it seems to me should be continue continue to be able to be used for those purposes and that probably excludes the benches that are right on Main Street in the business area. But I think it would perhaps exclude the benches over on the upper side of the uh farmers market, those at the around the courthouse um and for that matter the courthouse grounds, although I I guess maybe the county might have something to say about that. But um any park-like setting, somebody mentioned the Riverbend Park. Um uh I frequently, well, I won't say frequently these days, but when I was younger, uh used to take a blanket down to a place like that and take a nap. And I think that this ordinance should permit such activities. It's uh it's it's the purpose of a of a green space, a park uh even an in town park to allow for relaxation that might include lying down taking a nap. So that's mainly what I wanted to say about that. And I I'll reiterate the um the idea that we we need to be mindful of what we're doing in what we're really doing, you know, what our purpose is in in adopting an ordinance like this. and that it needs to be administered without prejudice. And [clears throat] I do I do think that uh allowing um folks that own property

next to the sidewalk to uh tell somebody that they've got to move on is inappropriate. It's um you know, it's taking it's sort of vigilant like in my opinion. uh that is the responsibility of the police force and uh if somebody doesn't like somebody hanging out in front of their business then they need to bring it up with the police. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Is there anyone else that wishes to speak? Yes, ma'am. I recognize you. [laughter]

I wasn't planning to speak, but I realized I have a few things to add. My name is Chrissy Prader. I live at 11:22 Prader Lane in Marian. I've lived here since 2019. Um, just to reiterate some of the points that that Tom made, I have never felt unsafe in this town as a female walking alone at night. I have walked around downtown. For context, I used to live in inner and work in inner city Baltimore, so I know what it feels like to be afraid of your environment, and I've never felt that here in Marian. Um, I'm also a person who is occasionally napped in public. That is not my concern, although I will admit it. I don't I don't think anybody would arrest me for it, but they might arrest somebody who looks or or presents a little bit differently than me, a professional quiet lady napping on a bench. Um, but my concerns are really that I think uh research has shown and I I apologize I didn't have time to look up statistics but I don't think uh loitering or ordinances and and similar ordinances have any positive effect on the mental health of individuals who are experiencing problems in the community. Um and and so that would be my concern. In addition to uh perhaps subjective enforcement u would be perhaps an exacerbation of me mental health issues. I think a different approach uh might be uh warranted if those are the issues. But that brings up a good point. We haven't heard except for our first commenter today u of any of the issues that caused this ordinance to arise or to be requested. Um, so I'm not familiar with those. Uh, but I do have some concerns if it's strictly about mental health. I will say I was at the post office at 2:30 today and that person was not there and there was no apparent disturbance or anything at the post office. Um, but I

also don't think someone napping in public constitutes an emergency. Um, and it doesn't constitute a mental health emergency certainly. Um, but that is my only comment. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Um, I'm about to close at Yes. If if it's a public hearing and public is welcome to speak. Yes. Thank you.

I'm Barbara Mlelen. I live in on Meadow Drive just above the infamous Riverbend Park. Never had an issue with anybody or anything. My concern is, do you all remember in the 80s when we went through this before when they drained the state hospital of all patients that were not uh did not give permission to be patients themselves and I worked at the public library at the time and we had to deal with all the homeless people that had no place to stay and stay warm in the winter. And we dealt with it at first very gingerly, but we dealt with it with good humor and creativity. It all worked out. I can tell you stories about some of the patient well uh patrons of the library that we had to deal with. And it all worked. It It blew over and it worked. But going forward, I think the town of Marion is going to have to deal with this homeless issue in a more creative fashion rather than ordinances and this and that laws. Uh by getting some citizens together to go see what one other town, small towns have done. because we're not the only place on the map that deals with this issue and helping out the folks that already are dealing with it, trying to at [clears throat] least temporarily rehouse because this too will pass eventually

and uh it's going to take some money, some time, some effort and a little creativity on all of our parts to deal with this issue. and I hope we do it deal with it uh in a really humane fashion. Thank you, Mr. Mlen. Thank you. And if I see no other hands that uh rise that wish to speak, I will now close the public part of this hearing and turn this over to council. Uh seeing none, uh this is now um for council's discussion.

I'll make a motion we re we re we we revisit this looking back at the ordinance making sure we comply with the federal government with everything that uh we want to do and we see how we can maybe uh tweak this to meet the needs of all of our citizens.

I'll second that motion. I think the people who have spoken tonight and I appreciate every one of you who have come to talk has certainly opened my eyes to some issues that I didn't even think about. Uh so I appreciate very much everyone coming um to speak.

Okay. Um the um hearing was to uh determine not the disposition of the ordinance, which is a good motion. Uh Vice Mayor Gates, I I appreciate your motion, but we need we need to decide whether as a council we are going to accept this ordinance in its form or reject it. Then we can I was just going to ask why send it back? Yeah, we sent it back. That's what I did. I sent it back. But that's why I asked Mark, does this pass legal must? So the issue is if somebody's doing something illegal

and that the towns and cities that have been challenged um they have either wanted to prevent prostitution, drug use and the ramifications from drug use. And so they have put in their ordinance that if they're doing something illegal that man the Virginia Supreme Court has upheld it.

I was just interested we have any store owners. Would you have an opinion on this? Feel free to [clears throat] Sure. Hello. Um, my name is Luke Mercer. I own the new pawn shop in town, uh, 112 East Main Street, Marian, Virginia. Um, I just recently moved here from Frederick, Maryland at the beginning of the year. Much bigger city, but similar problems to what Marian has. Yeah.

What intrigues me about this is my first town meeting. I saw the issue that was being brought up, so I decided to come on down. What Mark just said, people doing something illegal is what he just said. The proposed ordinance does not state that. It doesn't state somebody doing something illegal. Now, there's been several times, and I've only been open for about four months now, where there have been disturbances among some citizens up and down Main Street. Some could classify them as a mental um issu is issue, some not. I mean, there's tomato tomato. It's an issue is an issue. How I don't really go into classification of it. I haven't had to yet call the police about it because some people, not let's just take mental issues aside, which they they it is a thing, mental issues, some people like to tow the line. Now, there are some people that are first amendment auditors or just people expressing the first amendment. In this ordinance, it does state that me being a business owner, I could without the ordinance, I have the power to warn people to not come back. I don't have the power to trespass somebody. That would be this. After the warning, I could of a warning, hey, don't come back. Then I would call the police and say, "Hey, I need this person trespass without warning." With this ordinance, it's taking the police out of the question because I'm the business owner. I have the right for the prop, the private property, but also that affects my neighboring businesses too because it states they cannot go into an adjacent building. So now my trespass is trespassing off of somebody else's private propert my my accord ordinance my hey don't come back is also affecting my neighbor's business per this

ordinance and not them doing something illegal like Mark just stated so I think it's very very dangerous this ordinance personally [cough] I feel [clears throat] that it can open up to a lot of lawsuits especially when we're not describing Hey, Mark just said it's only to illegal issues when this ordinance that written as is doesn't state that it's saying just loitering and that's per personal um interpretation. It's so me being as a business owner, it's not my two cents to really dictate what people can and can't do. I can just do my best as a business owner to keep the peace in my building and do that as I see fit. But other people are now given that right per this ordinance.

Yeah, I think that gets it across. Are you saying I understand explicitly has to be stated as such. Well,

what I mean, you know, it's everything's open for interpretation. Um, this might be uh something uh better discussed in committee if if as a point of order we do not have to vote for or against this that we can simply send it back to the committee and then the committee can bring it back. Uh at that time we would have another public hearing. Am I correct? Well, you you [cough and clears throat] can or you can continue it. Maybe if you wanted to bring it up, have it revised and bring it up at the next council meeting. You can continue it.

Well, uh but then the public is not going to get a chance to Well, they're informed today. Yeah. And that's appropriate. Yeah. I think we've had it before and had extra. If if I may, one more thing. The word illegal activity has been brought up. Again, it's illegal. Do we need an additional ordinance to enforce something that's illegal? Right. That's you're we're overstepping on a line. That's We deem it to be illegal. The law deems it. Correct me, Kevin. Are you there?

You can explain to them if a business owner ask them to leave and they don't, then you step in, right? Well, I can already do that as a business owner. That power is going to any occupant of the building per this ordinance. But you're the owner. Yes. But let's say let's say I have a customer. They have the power to get kick somebody out. No, they wouldn't. They said please leave. And if they don't leave, it would not be a customer. It would be the owner or the tenant. So if the owner has given a a right. Okay. So then back to it's already illegal per it's like a bar. They can ask anybody to leave. Of course that's private property. They don't have to call.

Of course. Yeah. Well, they can't enforce the trespass. The police would have to do that. They just have to request

like Walmart already signed up where we see somebody that's Walmart has signed an agreement where we can enforce trespass on our property or somebody that they're coming in with cruising really or really heavy not and that would just give us authority to be able [snorts] to run the because they would call on a nightly basis and we just used that primarily run off the people that hang on the park lot and causing issues and that's somewhat how this code for be as well. I mean

officers once they do arrive on scene if you were to get called they lay everything out and get both sides of the story and they made what needs to happen. Yeah. Okay. So rewarding it back to put like illegal activities into the ordinance. Is that what I heard?

Okay. Um I'm going to um ask that this discussion be uh continued to another time because we [clears throat] are fast approaching uh other business that we need to get done. In the instance of time, uh, I am going to call for a vote on the motion that we send this back to committee. However, if that means we don't have another public hearing on the revised ordinance, then I need to find a way for that to happen because I do not want the public not to be informed about this issue if we're going to simply change a few lines and then bring it back and work on it as a council. I believe that this is an important enough issue that the public needs to be involved and sideststepping it in this manner is not advised by me.

I agree. Um the thing that I think that stood out to me after hearing you talk I don't want to be a part of of anything that that says a certain part a certain group of people can't do what their rights are. [snorts] And I don't know if this has taken away any of their rights or not. I But I'd like to know what other smaller towns do with their lording issu ordinances. Well, I think Todd covered that, didn't he? Todd,

you he checked with Wville, Abington, and so on and so forth. I did, but I can I can gather that information and bring it back to May. Maybe we as council members need to go there and talk to other council members from other uh neighboring communities and then set up some communication there. Maybe that would be the better way for us to fully understand. And I'm willing to do that. But we have a motion on the floor and we have a second. We need to get to that. Uh Cindy, could you uh remind us of the motion? Yes, Dr. Motion is to revisit this back to comply with federal government.

Okay. Your second still stands. So, um in the interest of time, uh I would hope that we will have another public hearing on this matter if it if it comes back. Um because it certainly merits that. All in favor of sending this back to committee, please. Any opposed? Okay, it's unanimous. This is going to back to committee. That closes the public hearing for uh the uh lordering ordinance, and I want to thank everyone for your words, for your opinions, and please keep them coming. We'll we'll revisit this issue at another time. Um now, um public comment time. Wow. Um, we do have some people that signed up for public comment. Uh, I noticed that Charles Hayden has left. Uh, Maddie Pittz, you are welcome now to the floor.

Hi. Oh, I'm a little short. Um, I'm Maddie Pittz. I am the executive assistant and deputy clerk for the Smith County Administrator's Office. I live at 137 East Main Street here in Marian. Um, y'all all should have gotten these awesome flyers. I'll leave the rest of them here. Um, but myself and the Maran EDA administrative assistant, Ellen Frasier, we have been spearheading this attempt to get more young people involved in local government. I haven't looked around the room, but I have a guess that I might be one of the youngest people here. So, you might realize that there aren't a lot of young people involved in government. So, our idea is to kind of hit them while they're in high school. Um, we are offering college internships. We have a few applications for that as well at Smith County, but we really want to target this high school age demographic. And so we've set aside a budget um in the Smith County. We're going to be selecting three high school students, one to represent each town. And their goal is to plan an event that brings more young people to be involved in local government. So, not only are we getting young people involved through this program, it's going to look really great on a resume. you know, whether they're going to jobs to trade school, college, whatever they want to do after high school graduation. You know, we're mobilizing the youth in that way, but also we're getting kids involved through whatever program they might plan. This is based and modeled off of a program uh that with Phil's economic development association has implemented. You can just Google Youth ambassador program and you will see lots of local governments have seen a lot of success from programs like this. So, we're really excited to get uh we're really excited to get this started. Um, applications close December 12th. So, please tell any seniors in high school that you know to please apply. Um, we're very, very excited. Um, if you'all have any questions for me, you can ask them now. My email's also at the bottom. Send me an email or if you see Ellen around, she can have she can help you out as well.

I want to say this is a great idea. I mean, I I'm trying to get young people [cough] involved in things and it is very difficult. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, and I think it helps too. I mean, not to be too obvious, but Ellen and I are young, so I think it helps, too. Um, you know, I maybe slightly remember what high schoolers are into, so hopefully, you know, we'll be a little bit less intimidating, I hope. Great. Hope. Good luck. Yeah. Thank you'all.

Maddie, thank you very much. We appreciate you. Um, we uh did have uh Bill Huber who has left. Um Tom Hower who has also left. Uh David Fulton, you have the floor, sir. Thank you. Uh David Fulton, Pearl Avenue. Uh Mr. Gates brought up an issue at the last town meeting about some of the revenues coming into town. I was just curious as to how much food tax we have taken in in [snorts] the past five months. Is that a possibility to get?

Yeah. I mean with Freedom of Information Act. Sure. Is that correct, Mark? Yeah. Just go, you know, does he have to fill out a form? Well, I would think I mean I I think this is something that Yeah. the town keeps records of and can be easily just just just get something sign it and it's take get it to mark or drop it off at town hall well there was a there's a a form online if they wanted to use that form okay uh is is this um a foyer request or

it would be a foyer request but it's one that should be easily available Yeah. Okay. No cost. It won't be a cost obviously. Okay. If if it's a no cost public information. Okay. Yeah. I was just curious about the food tax for the past five years. Um give give us that in writing and uh somebody will get to you on that. Okay. There's a form online that you can go to the town web page. No. Okay. All right. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Um, and I don't see anyone else that is, uh, signed up for public comment time. So, um, since since it's been kind of a half-hazard meeting, I will see if there's any others that have not, uh, had the availability to sign the sheet that want to speak under public comments. Uh, none being heard, then we'll close the public comment section and we'll move on to council members reports. Um, if you don't mind, uh, we'll start at the end with Councilman Carter.

Uh, District 3, we had a meeting. Uh, Neil Oborn, uh, past mayor of Bristol is the new chairman. Uh, so he took over and, uh, we ordered some new buses. uh as you know they run constantly and they will just wear out. They don't they're not going to last that long and ultra expensive and as far as knowing exactly how much federal funds we're [snorts] going to get had is yet to be determined. Basically made a budget on quote last year's financial situation because still haven't gotten that stuff down from federal government. That's about it. It's running District 3 provides a very good unique service to this area. Uh thank the drivers when you see it they are very we we go the extra mile hiring good drivers courteous and safe. [clears throat] That's it. Okay. Councilman May.

No reports your honor.

Thank you sir. Councilman Atwell. So, I have just one thing to report on, and that would be back to the uh issue, the parking issue that we referred to committee on Main Street going from 3 hours to possibly two hours. and committee has discussed this and what we have discussed is that rather than making any knee-jerk reactions and changing any parking regulations, the bigger elephant in the room was the fact that the ones that we do have are not currently enforced. So rather than going and changing anything right off the bat, we feel like it would be better to as a council discuss how we're going to enforce it to see if once we enforce what we already have in place if it may already be adequate considering the fact that what we're currently doing is no enforcement on what's already in place. And another thing that was brought up was um merchants taking up um parking places on Main Street. It's been asked if there's maybe maybe we can have a small ask of the merchants not to use any of the uh customer parking that would be utilized on Main Street if if that's possible. So rather than any uh [clears throat] anything being done as far as changing the times or anything, we felt like we would like to have council weigh in as a whole on the enforcement of what we're already doing.

Um that's that's a very good idea. Um do you think that uh you could uh put Ken Heath on that? And um if you honor the town mayor association put out We go around and pass them out. We're trying the kind way of doing it. But the biggest thing it's going to take is for council to decide how we're going to enforce with Kevin and have a strong police presence downtown. Most of the people understand and they don't park on Main Street. We have a couple that we just can't.

And and that being said, um I'm one of the biggest offenders. Uh, I I park in front of the store. I forget where I parked. I forget what's happening. I ask my neighbors, call me, say, "Hey, Avery, you're parked on the street. Move move your vehicle." I'll do that and I won't take offense at it. I just forget. Sometimes I believe we just forget. So, we could as business owners just be good neighbors. [clears throat and cough] And remember, every parking place that a merchant takes is one that a customer can't. So that's right.

Some do, some don't. But [snorts] it's aggressive. Yeah. I think the the bigger issue is just finding some kind of reasonable enforcement. we feel like and then if we if we can come to that type of agreement and we start enforcing it and then we realize that the three hours isn't achieving what we want then I think at that point we should revisit scaling it back to two hours but if we're not enforcing what's there it doesn't matter what we change it to okay and the committee can meet anytime that they want to about any subject they see you don't have to wait for uh council to send it to committee you're

you're on the committee to look at things that just make sure that you let the town manager know that the committee is meeting. Right. Could I ask u the chief police chief a question? Um I Mr. uh Councilman Atwell um do you see your time to Miss Jennings? Yeah, sure. Okay. Do do you have the uh force the employees to enforce it?

It it would be tough. Uh technology is used on today's enforcement. I called around several different agencies asking about this when it came up the last go round and ADAN is in dilemma now with parking the city of Bristol is Tennessee and Virginia as well [clears throat] [snorts] and I spoke with other agencies. I did call and speak with Blackburg and other agencies where they do have parking issues and they use technology a lot now. Uh sometimes the license plate readers are in place on vehicles and they can go around and document and actually you can use cameras. U the initial part of it is just expense to be able to catch up with the with today's uh enforcement enforcement measures to be able to uh to be able to do that. And there's cases uh where like if you're two or three hour parking a vehicle can be documented and that uses the LPR recognition stuff u to recognize where a vehicle's at in a certain parking spot uh or cameras taking pictures and there has been some issues brought up about that in A from what I understand about how long we're going to hold on to pictures and stuff like that what AI is facing um But the technology is out there to be able to enforce it. It's just we'd have to get some manpower and initial cost of everything to enforce.

Okay. Thank you. And uh Councilwoman Jennings, do you have further uh for us?

I just have a couple of Christmas things that's going to happen on uh December the 6. This Saturday, the friends of the library are having a huge book sale. We'd like to sell all the books that we have in the garage and downstairs. And that's hundreds of books. Uh, a plastic bag from um the grocery store will be $5. Fill them full fill it full full of books. And then the paper bag from grocery stores will be $10. So, we've got a lot of of good new books, uh, current books. So, uh, tell your friends and come, please, on December the 6th, 10 to 2 at the library. Then the Joyful Noise Choir is going to have a Christmas Canada on December the 13th at the Maring Baptist Church. So, I invite everybody to come to that because it's going to be a nice performance. That's all.

Thank you. It's Christmas time. It is. Uh, Councilwoman Spencer, no report. Thank you, Vice Mayor Gates. [clears throat] Uh yes, the tree board has been meeting and uh in [clears throat] the process of this, they got uh a number of trees planted in front of the Henderson where those trees were removed and also they had some extra trees at the time. So, they were planted at Steel Park. No, I'm sorry. They were planted on Kellen Drive. So, uh, they're working diligently to help manage the trees, and that's all I have.

All right. Thank you, sir. Councilwoman Hayes. Nothing. Nothing today. Thank you. Thank you. And um Okay. Under the mayor's report, I want to uh to tell everyone that I um had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I actually went to the Gobbler Gallup. My number was 605 and I finished first because I took one step and quit.

Oh, [laughter] but uh it was very well attended and uh I stopped by the Methodist church for a couple of minutes and watched them preparing a lot of uh food to go out into the community and a lot of people doing a lot of volunteerism and uh being active on Thanksgiving. I went home and went into a turkey coma. Um, but anyway, in uh other other mayoral news, I'm going to uh go ahead and close the mayor's report so we can get to other things. Um, again, thank you everyone and council, thank you for everything that you're doing. Um, [clears throat] we will go on with the attorney's report. So, just for council's information, you you will see at the next council meeting uh a $24 charge to get an address changed on two warrant debts that involve um the town of Marian revolving loan [snorts] funds. The town police did get involved after that and thankfully they obtained service on the two individuals whereas the the uh person that previously attempted just said can't find um the town police went the extra mile and and found them. And we do have two others that will ask the court to again continue so that we might be able to involve the services of a private detective to find two individuals that have moved to Richmond because they have

pretty substantial loans. So, we'll end up getting having more expense, but um they weren't able to be found based upon the address that we had provided in in the city of Richmond. But we do have um hearings coming up December 11th. And again, I would like to thank the town of Marian Police Department. [clears throat] All right. Good deal. Anything else, sir? That's all. Okay. Um, let's go with staff reports and Cindy Stanley. No report, sir.

Thank you, ma'am. Uh, Chief Terman,

and thank you for using that mic. Yes. Um we uh a couple weeks ago now uh coming up upon us uh we went over to the sheriff's office and discussed any active shooter at an active shooter round table about what would go on in certain situations on uh how it would be handled and who would set up where we're having a good working relationship with sheriff's office and also Virginia State Police and other agencies within their county. Uh we left from that meeting, ended up going to the Smith County Community Hospital since we would probably more than likely be a first responder there, first on scene. Uh and discussed an active shooter roles and what we'd have in the hospital. Um and there, you know, we do have key cards for the hospital to gain entry into any areas and anything like that. Uh we went over just a couple hour meeting that day for active shooter plans. uh got some really good valuable information uh to go along. Uh we're going to be getting new key cards for the sheriff's office to gain into entry into the courthouse and also their facilities and uh getting new key cards for Smith County Schools and also the campus of Emery. So, it's uh some good information about that because uh in the past our cards would stay programmed for a while and you wouldn't program would just stop working. you could gain access. Um, we got everything going for this week. We got the Merry Marian planned for Thursday night. Have some additional staffing coming out and also the Christmas parade on Friday night. Everything's finalized. So, going to be a busy week.

All right. That's all my report unless you have any questions. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Um, I do not see anyone um [clears throat] currently um in the building representing fire and EMS. Uh, oh, wait a minute. There's Chief Keezling. Uh, I didn't see you over there. I'm here on behalf of Chief H. The uh call count just off the bat from November

like 2:45 unverified, but we have to which means it's even busier than last month. So, we have been quite busy. Um, we're also preparing for the Friday night's parade. The weather doesn't look too favorable, but we're hoping for the best. And also, um, I was told that the, uh, Grinch will be out in his sleigh Saturday the 13th to pass that along. We'll look for him. Yeah. If anybody has any questions. Do you go to all streets? [clears throat]

In in the years past, we've done that in a couple of different nights. So, we're going to attempt to do it in one night on that Saturday. And if not, or somebody was missed, just let us know and we'll do it again. That's not a problem. All right. Anybody have any questions about anything or No, sir. Thank you. Thank you. We'll move along with Ken Heath and economic development.

There you go. Thank you very much. Uh Friday, Thursday night, we have our Christmas tree lighting at 6. Uh we'll start from about 5:30 with program. Uh Jimmy Fortune is playing at the Lincoln that night, so he's going to come up and light the Christmas tree for us. And then Friday night is the Christmas parade. Uh it's going to be nice and cold both nights, so please bundle up. Next Friday, we're doing two ribbon cutings. At noon, Luke's already gone, but we'll be doing a ribbon cutting at the pawn shop. And then at 12:30, Blazing Scoops, the new waffle and ice cream store downtown where Sarah's jewelry used to be. So, please put those on your calendar. Send an email reminder to you. Christmas tree lighting is what? Six. Six.

Paradise at seven. Praise at 7. Line up at six. With the given forecast, should we go ahead and consider the possibility of altering that route based on our last discussion that we had about this? I'll defer to Dr. Gates on that one. Pardon? Talking about the forecast for Friday night. It's Thursday. The th Thursday night. We're good. We That's easy to route that one because that's right in front of the one's easy. This was the problem I had before when we discussed it. Y they're going to Food City. Yeah, we brought it up. cutting it short. Everybody said last time, don't cut it short. It's going to Food City. Not everybody. Not every

I know, but we got voted. We got voted that we're going to Food City. Okay. And you you still have the ability Someone tells me someone tells me different. I thought that we had left it open. Yes. You still have the ability to control uh safety. Absolutely. I mean, safety is the first concern. the weather that would that would fall in your safety. Yeah. And and we we can't I'm not going to make the call. Someone tell me what to do. Third Friday evening. We'll look at it at that time. Somebody somebody be in charge of call. I won't I won't be I won't even be in town.

You going to have to get the word out. You'll have people from Yeah. That was I think that was all through the city that won't get the city parade and pick their children. Not to be the guy that says I told you so when I brought this up last time if we would have done it then we'd have had enough time to publicize it. I'm afraid if we went now and even put out Nixl and did channel 5, channel we voted on it, we we're going to Food City. Uh but I mean if it's a blinded snowstorm, you can call off the parade entirely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's or blizzard or ice. I'd be more worried about ice than I would anything else. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we we live in the woods. Yeah. Yes. [clears throat] Snow's in the woods.

And it's and it's calling for some snow uh Friday afternoon turning to icy rain. So, we'll keep our fingers crossed we have a nice parade and Santa Claus is happy and brings us all toys. Can't control weather. Thanks. Thanks, Ken. Thank you very much. Todd Long with zoning and property maintenance. No report. No report. Okay. Thank you, sir. [laughter] And uh town manager Billy Ham, I don't have any significant changes in our project. So unless you all have questions, I do say no. Okay, that is uh fair enough. And thank you, sir. Okay. Um we will be going into close session. And uh Miss Jennings, Councilwoman Jennings, if you take us into close session.

Okay. I make a motion we go into close session to discuss the town manager hiring process. uh as allowed under 2.23711 and that is A1 personnel. Second, we have a motion and a second to go into close session. Um all in favor of going into close session and uh we

you have it on the agenda, but you may want to remind the public it will be for a We will be continuing this meeting uh but there we will go back into open session to actually continue the meeting uh until tomorrow. So uh and then we will be going immediately into close session for um town manager and we'll take a five minute res

I believe we're ready. Okay. I make a motion that we come back into open session and declare we only did the interview that we went into close session to do as allowed under state code 2.23712. Second. Second. Have a motion. Second to come back into open session. All in favor? No. We have to be. Yeah.

Oh, do I have to say it again? No. Oh,ionotion. before I was in here. Probably should do it again. Make a motion we come back into open session and declare that we only discussed doing uh did the one interview for uh town manager is allowed under state code 2.23712 and it's personnel A1. I second. We have a motion second. Any discussion? Roll call vote. Cornet. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Can we continue this meeting?

Do we need that, Mark? Yeah, we did. We did. We continue this meeting. Do you want something else? No. I I wanted to announce that we're back in open session. Go ahead. I'm sorry. And now, if there's any business that needs to come before the town council, I'll make the motion that we continue this meeting till tomorrow at 5:30, Tuesday the 2nd at 5:30. Second. Motion and second of continuence of the meeting. All in favor? I I I. So, our meeting is now continued until tomorrow at the appointed time.

And I make the motion. No, we can't do that. You have to take your motion back. Please rescend your motion. No one second it because we're continuing the meeting. So, we're not Well, we we're adjouring for tonight. No, we're meeting the meeting discontinued. Come on. Work with us. This is [laughter] just I've been in a ton of meetings for the night. No, I'll resend it. But I mean, I'll argue with you. All All in favor of the continuence. Yes. Yes. Okay, we're good. It's like a