Common Council - Regular Meeting

Hi, media team. Is there do you happen to have an extra extension cord? Folks are there's a little bit of a spot that folks are struggling to plug in things. They're not reaching the other extension cords. I don't know if you maybe used all of what you've got, but I'm putting in the request. Appreciate it.

Sorry, that's a little harsher than usual. uh the hour of 6:30 having come and gone a while ago, I will uh reconvene the recessed common council meeting of April 21st, 2026 and ask the clerk to please call the role. Thank you. Alder Glenn, Alder Glenn is present. Alder Ugar here is present. Alder Harington McKenna. Alder Lankella here. Alder Kella is present. Alder Lieberman here. Alder Lieberman is present. Alder Martinez Rutherford. I apologize. Alder Madison, President Madison, President Madison is present. Thank you. Wow. Alder Matthews here. Alder Matthews is present. Alder mayor

here. The mayor is present. Alder O'Brien here. O'Brien is present. Alder Ohich present. Aldovich is present. Alder Pritchette here. Alder Pritchette is present. Alder Tishler I'm here. Alder Tishler is present. Alder here. Alder is present. Alder Ver here. Ver is present. Alder Jang Alder Jang is present. Alder Duncan here. Duncan is present. Alder Evers here. Alder Evers is present. Alder Field here. Field is present. Alder Fugal Cole here. Fugal Cole is present. Madame Mayor we have Cororum.

Thank you. I'd first like to ask our interpreters um to make an announcement because we do have simultaneous interpretation available for tonight's meeting. You just have to press the button so the light turns green. Hi, good evening. My name is Phil. I'm part of the uh Madison Incorporated of uh interpreter of Madison and Zong and I will be uh interpreting in Mong tonight. Uh that's a request, but we do have available Spanish sign language in over 20 plus language and now service has been existing for over 30 years. So really appreciate for us being here tonight. Thank you.

Thank you. Do you want to share in Mung in case anybody needs it? Thank you very much and thank you for being here. Um, a few other bits of business. Um, as you just heard, the mics that we're using tonight, you have to turn on and off yourself. Um, so they are live when the light is green. You achieve that by pressing the button. Um, strongly encourage you to remember to press the button when you're done speaking. So the mic is not live anymore. Unfortunately, you do have to share. Um, so please be nice to your neighbors and pass the mics as needed. Um, and again, I cannot emphasize enough, please turn off the mic when you are done speaking. If we get too many of them live, we start to get echoey and and weird. So, um, appreciate that in advance. Um, similarly, because we're not using, um, the same system as is in council chambers. Um, for the folks that are on Zoom, it will be the same. You use the raise hand function. I will see you. Um, for those of you who are in the room, um, you need to actually physically raise your hand. Um, and try and make I'll try and be watching, but make eye contact. So, and make sure that I write your name down. um because I'll be actually physically keeping a queue um since we don't have an electronic system to do so. Um, and I also just want to say that um, because it is the first meeting for two of our colleagues um, and the first meeting for new council leadership, I will take some portions of the meeting slowly and um, try and help guide through various aspects of Robert's rules perhaps a little bit more

um, than I have uh, in more recent meetings just so that we can all get oriented to procedures here. Um, I'll just remind us collectively that we're here to do the business of the people of the city of Madison and I ask that we do that with grace and kindness. In particular, the council has um rules about not addressing each other directly so that when you speak, you speak to the chair. If you refer to your colleagues, please refer to them to their titles and their last names. Um, if you're referring to staff, I just ask that you do that with courtesy as well. Um title and last name is generally what we've we have used here. Um for uh alers new alders Jeang and Lieberman it is a little bit to get used to. Um so pay attention to what your colleagues do. If you have questions you can always um you know raise your hand and and uh ask for a point of order or a question that would be appropriate. And if not, you can turn to your colleagues and whisper in their ears and try and get guidance. And if I can ask whoever's phone that is to please silence it. Um, everyone's phone should be on silent in chambers. Um, so that we don't get interrupted. Um, all right. So, those are my opening remarks. Hopefully, um, Alder Viviver,

I'm just getting a message that someone is not um hearing the audio on the city city channel. Well, same. So, um, wondering if it can take a look at that. So, if our friends on the award-winning Madison City channel can make sure that the audio is coming through on Zoom, that would be very much appreciated. Thank you. Okay.

Thank you. The voice of God. Um, then the next item is disclosures and recusals. So uh this is something that we have at every meeting. Uh just this is designed for if a member of the council has some potential conflict of interest um that they need to talk about uh related to any of the items on the agenda. Please do silence your phone. Um, so a conflict might be if there's an item on the agenda that impacted your um your income or um your employer. For example, if you were employed by an organization that was seeking a contract with the city or approval from the city, you would want to recuse yourself from voting on that item. Um a disclosure would be if you had um some relationship uh with somebody uh or an entity that is on the agenda, you might disclose that. So for example, when we have items that are relevant to WMadison, there's a number of members of the council who work for the UW. Rarely are their agencies implicated in the items before us. So they disclose the fact that they are employed by the city or excuse me, the university. Um, so just for guidance on disclosures and recusals, are there any disclosures or recusals on items on tonight's agenda? Alderfield.

Mayor, you beat me to it. On item 79, I'm an employee of the University of Wisconsin Madison, but that will not affect my vote on this item. Thank you, Alder. Are there any other disclosures or recusals? Alder Mayor, I recuse myself on the same item. Thank you, Alder Tishler. Yes, I also still work at the University of Wisconsin Madison. So, item 79 is not that affect my vote. Thank you, Alder. Alder Matthews. Um, I also work at WMadison and that will not impact my vote.

Thank you, Alder. Are there any other disclosures or recusals on items on tonight's agenda? Seeing none, then we'll move on to the presentation of the consent agenda. President Madison.

Okay, bear with me because I don't have my readers. Okay, a consent agenda. Oh my gosh, I've hit that age. Sorry. Okay. A consent agenda is moved with the recommended action listed for each item on the agenda, including public hearings, except one which items have Let's see how these work. Oh, they work well. Oh, I think they might have too much power. Okay. Items which have registrates wishing to speak. Items which alters have separated out for discussion and or debate purposes. This document lists supermajority items. Agenda items with recommendations different from the agenda. Items for exclusion. Items for exclusion. Items introduced from the floor and agenda items. Items with corrections. Agenda. Agenda items that are super majority items. Note, please note, superjority vote items will be recorded as unanimous votes unless a roll call or exclusion is requested. So, um, agenda item 42, which is legislative file number 92591, reapproving a certified survey map of property owned by Spreer Apartments LLC and located at 102 South Spreer Road in District 3. Report of Department of Planning and Community and Economic Development. 14 votes required to adopt under suspension of MGO 2.055. Agenda item 48, which is legislative file number 92353, amending the 2026 operating budget and setting the 2026 rates for the sewer, utility, landfill, and storm water citywide. Report of finance committee, 15 votes required. Agenda item 52, legislative file number 92452, amending the 2026 adopted operating budget for the Department of Civil Rights to accept $5,000 for the ETF wellness program grant. Report of finance committee, 15 votes required.

Agenda items with recommendations different from the agenda. Uh, no items in that section. Agenda items excluded by one request of orders or two speakers registered by noon on April 21st. Agenda item number seven which is legislative file number 92339 appeal of the plan commission action on the conditional use request for 2927 East Washington Avenue. Legisar ID 91510 appeals and speakers registered. Uh agenda item number 55 which is legislative file number 92 386 substitute amending subsections 5.19 6 7I and 8 and amending subsections 520 9F of the Madison general ordinances to add public reporting requirements for the police of the for the office of the independent monitor and police civilian oversight board. report of police oversight board speakers registered.

Thank you, President Madison. Thank you. Are there any other items that alers would like to have excluded from the consent agenda at this time? Seeing none, then President Madison, a motion on the consent agenda, please. Motion. Motion to adopt. Second.

Moved and seconded to adopt the consent agenda. Is there any objection to recording unanimous vote in favor of the consent agenda and the recommendations therein at this time? Seeing no objection, we'll record that vote and that will take us to public comment. The first item that we have public comment on is agenda item seven, the appeal of the plan commission action on the conditional use request for 2927 East Washington Avenue, which is legisar 91510. We have two registrants wishing to speak. Our first registrant wishing to speak is Alex Sherwood of District 15 will be followed by Edward Koharsski. Do we have Alex? please come forward and if the light's not green, press the button.

Okay.

Good evening. Um, uh, first time speaking at city hall. Thank you for the opportunity. Uh, my name is Alex Sherwood. I live at 242 Oak Street, uh, approximately 40 feet from the Manqua Brewing Company's beer garden. Uh, I'm also here tonight on behalf of myself, my wife Christy, uh, my neighbors Sam Mack at 238 Oak, and Jeremiah Snortmom at 237 Oak, uh, who share the same concerns, but couldn't be here this evening. Uh, so my wife works from home full-time. Her office is on the second floor of our home with its window directly overlooking the beer garden in question. Uh, and that beer garden is enclosed by tall cinder block walls on two sides and it tends to funnel sound directly into our homes. Uh, we can hear clear conversations from patrons in the beer garden inside of our house. And that's without amplification. And at 40 ft, amplified music is no longer background noise that you can close a window against. It's in the room with you. uh it would mean losing the ability to work, to take calls, uh or to concentrate, and this is at this business's discretion from May through October. Uh our neighbor at 238 Oak lives with his son who works night shifts. Uh he sleeps during the exact hours uh proposed for amplified sound Saturday afternoons. Uh and at 237, same proximity and the same exposure. Um, these are people living, working, and sleeping 40 ft from the sound source uh during the exact hours proposed for amplified sound. Uh, and if these were not the established uses that standard 3 is designed to protect, then what are uh staff have now evaluated this application twice. Uh, once a year ago

and again in March of 2026. Both times they considered reduced scheduling, sound curtains, decibel monitoring, and both times they concluded standard 3 is not met at 40 ft. This isn't a close call where one more condition tips the balance. Staff's professional assessment is that the fundamental constraint is distance and no proposed mitigation resolves it. Uh I also want to address uh the note in the record that no complaints have been filed since the first denial. Uh in our written comments to the plan commission last month, we provided several pictures of different musicians performing with amplifiers and PA systems at the site. And despite these obvious violations, we chose to not call the police out of respect for the artist. Uh and I regret to admit that I think that was a mistake because I now realize that by not involving the police that this could now be read as an absence of a problem. And so I just wanted to put that on the record with my voice. Uh, finally, standard three specifically asks whether harm to the neighborhood is foreseeable. Uh, I'd like the council to hear the applicant's own answer to that question.

That's your three minutes. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Our next registrant is Edward Koharsski of District 6. Ed.

Uh, good evening. I have interest in this because I was retained as architect for some uh improvements to the beer garden at Manqua Brewing and uh Mr. Bankstad and staff put in for a building improvement grant to implement those and those were heavily targeted towards sound containment and mitigation. Um, you know, early in my career, I designed the original American Players Theater, which works to this day without amplification. And uh, so I understand about acoustics and how you do it outdoors. So that's pertinent. So, I designed a little AP kind of in there with the bandstand well enclosed and especially baffled in the back, raising the fence and putting a a sound absorbing septum in the the fence between two layers of fencing. Uh, and then installing some sound capture louvers on those block walls that were just referenced. And all of this was in service of uh reducing the need or the or the urge to use amplification when the natural voice and acoustic instruments could work. But that was denied. And it was interesting that the denial as I read it and I didn't have time to follow up on this was uh the committee that did that wrote that this project, this building or operation was licensed as a food service operation and that music was not part of that. But it's not a food service. It's a it's a beer. It's a a a tap room and a and a beer garden. So, I concerned about the lack of due diligence of the staff and uh what seemed to me like a an un unwarranted snub of that grant that would be a constructive resolution to this problem.

So, you know, in the spirit of communitarian uh spirit and also in uh considering the first amendment issues in play for any music and any performance and the fact that it's a commercial property and people that uh live near a commercial property do not have an a particular expectation that there might not be this type of noise impact in the future, whether it was there or not to begin. Uh it's like moving next to the farm and complaining about the manure that's being spread.

Um so I mean I have great interest and concern for the neighbors but they also can close windows and I think it could be worked out and I and I stand ready to help. Thank you. Thank you. Are there questions for either of our registrants? Alder Martinez Rutherford. Can I ask that uh Mr. for sure would be able to finish his uh you moving an extra minute. Yes, please. I'm moving an extra minute for Alex. Is there any objection to an extra minute for Alex Sherwood? Seeing no objection. Alex, do you want to have an extra minute?

Thank you, Dana. Uh yeah, I I think I could do this in a minute. Um so what I was going to say is standard three specifically asks whether harm to the neighborhood is foreseeable. And so I'd like the council to hear the applicant's own answer to that question. This is from a post on the applicant's official social media page, a page with hundreds of thousands of followers, and it was published after the plan commission's first denial. Um, quote, "The guy next to us at our Madison location organized the neighbors to petition the city to reject our amplified music permit, so we brought in a fivepiece brass band instead." beautiful music, a free artistic gift to the community, perfectly legal yet somehow enraging to our neighbor. And so my question is, is harm foreseeable in in the context of standard three? And I I think the applicant has answered that question himself. Thank you.

Thank you. There any other questions for either of the registrants on this item? Elder Pitchett. Yes. I would like to ask you, assuming that you have a young family, kids that are trying to sleep and let's say the location of their bedroom is next to where the noise is. Would that be problematic? Certainly. Okay. The second question you if you could come up to the microphone because we have people on Zoom that need to hear you. Thank you. Sure. The answer to the question is certainly.

Did you have another question Alder?

Yes. The the the next question is this. There is a noise ordinance. There's a noise ordinance, you know, for the city of Madison. And I understand that there should be uh I think a distance of 40 to 60 yards away from noise. Have you explored looking at the noise ordinance to see how this would align with what you're asking for or what you're trying to get the owner of the beer garden to do? No, I'm I'm not completely familiar with the the noise ordinance and and how that could or or would be enforced. Like I said in my statement, we've avoided calling the police just because it's the east side. I feel like the police have enough to deal with in our neighborhood, but like I said, maybe that's the the wrong uh the wrong attitude.

And what is your ask, you know, of the of the operator of the beer garden? You know, he said that he was willing to work with you and you could work it out. you know, what conditions would you be looking for? Specifically,

my my ask is that amp amplified sound in this space is is not not tenable. Um, I think a beer garden is is enough. Um, they have an indoor space that they can do music. I've seen them do special events in the parking lot out front on the other side in the beer garden uh that they applied for and that's totally fine on on the other side of the building. But the beer garden that is adjacent to our home, I'm I have a hard time imagining any type of amplification working in in in that particular setup. And the last question is if you work let's say the graveyard shift, you know, from uh let's say midnight to 7:00 a.m. and you're trying to get that last vestage of sleep, would that interfere with your sleep?

Well, precisely. And that is actually the the situation of our our next door neighbor who is within, I think, 80 ft of the beer garden. his son does work night shifts and and is sleeping during the proposed hours of this um u amplified sound application. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Elder. Are there any other questions for this registrant?

Seeing none, thank you. Any further questions on this item? Okay. Right. Then the next item with registrants wishing to speak is item 55 uh which is a substitute amending sections of the Madison general ordinances to add public reporting requirements for the office of the independent monitor and police civilian oversight board. Our first uh registrant wishing to speak on this item is Helen uh Luis Mills of District 10 to be followed by Christian Shepki to be followed by Kim Ian Richmond. Do we have Helen? Thank you for taking the time to listen to what I have to say. I speak on behalf of a number of folk. I am on the PCOB. I uh moved that the PCOB reject uh the amendments and that the city would reject the amendments with prejudice which was asking for 60 days for us to be able to do the work that we need to do and then be able to engage in a conversation. I publicly invited all of the alders to reach out to me personally. Only one reached out to me personally. I reached out to the rest of you via email. Um, and several of you met with me and I appreciate that. My hope is that you will reject the amendments and engage in an open government conversation. That's what MGR originally said in the March 25th meeting that he was trying to open government uh do stuff with open government and yet this entire process has been the opposite of that. None of the um documents that uh independent monitor

Glasp posted today have been included in Legisar which are in opposition to all of the council that the council has been receiving. It has not been an open process in engaging with us. Um, it was created in an open process with 10 open meetings where the rules were suspended and people were able to engage in truly open engagement and that's what we would like to see happen again. We also have some amendments we'd like to see. We just reported we just put out two reports and no one has responded to them. I would like an amendment that says you're required to respond to the report. So, we have some really good conversation that we can have and we'd like to have that conversation. We just need time and we need resources. That's all I have. I could just No, just kidding. Thank you. Our next registrant is Kristen Shepki of District 10 to be followed by Kim Ian Richmond to be followed by Nicholas Davies. Do we have Kristen? Doesn't look like we have Kristen in the room. Kristen just needs to unmute on their end.

Kristen, it looks like you might be on the phone. So, it's star six to unmute yourself. Right. But given the number of registrants, Christian, we're going to come back to you. Our next registrant is Kim Richmond of District 16 to be followed by Nicholas Davies to be followed by David Blasa.

Good morning. Um, good afternoon everybody. appreciate you being here. I'm speaking in support of Legisar 92386 and I urge the common council to vote yes. First of all, thank you Alder MGR. I don't think he's here tonight after ending his term. Um, thank you him for leading and thank you to the co-sponsors for going forward with these necessary ordinance revisions. The OIM and the PCOB cannot continue to operate as is. Some have called them dysfunctional, incompetent, and entitled. They need an immediate implementation of robust governance, formal protections, and yes, more oversight. It's time to fill some open holes in those two original ordinance ordinances. I've read all 13 or 14 attachments to the legisar. There are many good points, but one stands out. The lack of a clear administrative structure has contributed to delays in responding to public record requests, confusion about authority and responsibility across city departments, and lawsuits that have resulted in legal and financial repercussions." It was recently revealed that sensitive, unredacted documents MPD shared with the OIM were being uploaded to a personal device and analyzed with software that was not approved by the city's IT department. The PCOB has also ignored concerns from city officials that the OIM may have violated state laws. The PCOB strongly objected to the new ordinance when it was introduced last month with member with members telling the common council to stop bothering them with frequent changes. If things aren't working, it's time for changes. We don't want an appointed board going rogue and rejecting rejecting amendments by people who we elected to make those

decisions. I find it bizarre that the PCOB would not discuss Alder MGR's changes and they voted to table the discussion of the ordinance indefinitely. Why can't they get past the conflict to reach a point of negotiation or unity? In my opinion, it's because it's a classic case of stonewalling. Msonians have had enough of their hardearned wages disappearing into endless bureaucracy and lawsuits caused by the PCO. Regardless of who is responsible for past problems, you have about 30 seconds.

Or how they've character or how they're characterized tonight, the structural issue remains. The board has operated for almost six years without meaningful accountability, transparency, and metrics to the people of Madison. And that shift of structure needs to change tonight. I encourage you to vote yes and be safe and good make uh make good choices. And I yield my glasses to Alder Madison.

Thank you. Uh our looks like Kristen has unmuted. So, our next registrant is Kristen Shepki of District 10. Kristen, it looks like you're unmuted on our end, Kristen, but if you're talking, we can't hear you. I wonder if it's a headset problem or Oh, there you are. Can you hear me? Yes.

Okay. Okay. So, I'm totally really unprepared for this because I didn't get a thing. So, I didn't think I was going to be able to speak and then I heard my name. Um, so, um, I'm I am against approving these amendments. I think that there's been a lot of information pushed out really quickly that it's inaccurate and I think that's been done by design. And I think we're just going to hear a lot of people urging yes, vote on these things. Yes. Because they've been inflamed by this false information. And I think that like the office of the independent monitor hasn't even really had a chance to respond and hasn't had responses from the people, you people who are going to be voting on it. And I think in terms of the issues that have been brought up that we have a new independent monitor and I think that shows that the system works and we don't have any issues with everything present and just the manner in which these amendments have come to bear. I I just I don't like it. And so I would also ask that you vote in opposition to it and that you really come together and talk and um and I think that you will see that there isn't really a need for these amendments and that they would be extremely harmful. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next registrant is Nicholas Davies of district 15 to be followed by David Blasa to be followed by Rachel Cole Concincaid. Do we have Nicholas?

Yeah. Good evening. Uh Bill Lutters of the Wisconsin Freedom of Information Council discovered that Madison police closed over 100 internal investigations just in Q1 of this year. And this included 25 investigations regarding police vehicles, 14 regarding use of force, 11 regarding legal authority, three about weaponry, one domestic abuse, one sexual assault, and only two of these led to disciplinary action. The rest of these investigations, the other 98% of them were closed without disciplinary action. And that's just not a plausible ratio. It really demonstrates the continued urgency and relevance of a fully operational independent monitor. These investigations were not shared directly with the public and MPD did not release these records according to the timeline specified in Wisconsin open records law. When accountability isn't independent, this is what you can expect. I was shocked to hear that MPD was able to arbitrarily unilaterally cut off the OIM's access to their data. Data that the OIM needs in order to carry out their mission. The fact that O MPD can choose to pause accountability whenever they see fit shows that we don't have this system fully matured yet. OIM's access shouldn't require MPD's permission or even their knowledge. Some have pointed out that the OIM can get accredited directly through the Wisconsin DOJ, and I don't know if that's fully independent from the law enforcement either, but it could be a good short-term solution. I urge you not to further inhibit the OIM's independence from MPD and from the mayor's office. That independence was intentional from the start and the importance of that hasn't changed. I urge you not to put further administrative burden on the OM without further resources. Those over 100 internal MPD investigations, how many people are involved in those? and how many departmental staff supported those people to allow them to carry out those

investigations without also having to do the work of running city department. The OIM is only 2.6 FTEES. That's about as small as a city department can be. By underresourcing this department, the council has put them in a barely tenable position to start with. And then some members of count council now former members attempted to blame the OIM for that and place further administrative requirements on them as if that's going to help. But to expect this 2.6 FTE department to act like a department that has adequate funding and staffing and support without actually providing those things, it's only going to make the solution the situation less tenable. You have about 30 seconds left.

Thank you. Lastly, I just want to say seeking to create a political appointee position on the PCOB is just opportunism. I'm not saying that PCOB structure has to be set in stone, but I don't think that this change has been justified. Thank you. Thank you. Our next registrant is David Blasa of District 10 to be followed by Rachel Cole Concincaid to be followed by Sharon Henry. Do we have David? Yes, we do. Go ahead.

Thank you very much. Well, people, let's face it. The Independent Police Monitor has been just one giant toothache for all of its five years. It was founded on a lie. The lie that Madison police are institutionally racist. It was created as a political ransom to buy off the social justice warriors and their charges of racism following the George Floyd hysteria. If Madison police really were racist, where are the civil rights judgments? Where are the Department of Justice consent decrees? Its oversight board requires at least one member with a criminal history. Nominees are accepted only from a curated list of social justice agencies. Its first monitor accomplished nothing. Right before he bailed on Madison, police chief Sean Barnes accused the monitor of, and this is a quote, fishing through research papers to create some kind of punishment for the police department. end quote. Talk about entitled. It demands to be immune from city personnel, IT, procurement, and public records rules. Its data cruncher plays with sensitive crime reports on its personal computer at his home with no supervision and no apologies. The monitor is the answer to a trivia contest. She reports that eight cases have been closed. Chief among them is an incident where a police sergeant on State Street declined to return a fist bump to a young adult and followed that with a profanity or two. The department had already disciplined the sergeant by the time the monitor got to the case. Independent. Then why was Greg Gilak a regular at the Justice for Tony rallies? Conflict of interest will actually pay people to sue the city. Maya Pearson is only the latest chairman of the oversight board to be arrested. And

don't worry, the monitors on that case, too. The whole apparatus is duplicative. The police and fire commission can impose discipline and even terminate. Now, that is real oversight. The monitor is more trouble than it's worth. $1.4 million in taxpayer money, $273,000 paid out in racial discrimination lawsuits, and nothing to show for it. Now, think about it. racial discrimination lawsuits. Talk about irony. Now, the monitor is threatening legal action against the city and its bid to avoid accountability. We have about 30 seconds left.

I urge you to vote yes on these amendments, but unless you want protracted litigation, the easiest way out of this mess is to abolish the police monitor and its oversight board. Admit your mistake and move on. then open a more visible front door to the wellestablished, legally constituted and more impactful police and fire commission. Thank you. Thank you. Our next registrant is Rachel Cole Concincaid of District 12 to be followed by Sharon Irwin Henry to be followed by Linda Ketchum. Do we have Rachel? Yes. Go ahead. Can you hear me? Yep.

Okay. I won't take up much time. I was on the first four years of the of the PCOB as a board member and yes, we did hit quite a few bumps. But I I say that to only to say that um last week uh Moses sponsored a PCOB listening session and I got so excited because it is finally doing what we envisioned it to do by the ordinance that we were given by the city council. So, I strongly strongly oppose any amendments to that as we are now finally doing what we set out to do. So, I would say please don't put any, you know, don't don't push back and and put any road bumps in the way. Um, let it do what it's supposed to do. And remember that this is a model, the first of its kind in Wisconsin. And so it's going to take a while to get set up, but we're doing it. We're doing it. I'm so excited. So strongly oppose putting up any amendments that cause barriers to it acting independently. Thank you. Thank you. Our next registrant is Sharon Irwin Henry of District 6 to be followed by Linda Ketchum to be followed by MGR Gavind. Sharon,

hi. I probably don't need this. I am letting you know I'm here for one reason and I've been here for 11 years for the same reason. The independent monitor and the office is a necessary thing here in the United in in Madison, Wisconsin. It's going to do things for us. We like she said, we just got started on this. I have a whole lot of things that I can say. I want to say to the city attorney, you cannot legally do be the attorney for the city, for the police, and for and for the the OMI at the same time. A definite and clear conflict of interest. Who are you going to support? You definitely aren't going to support us. You're going to support the city. That's your job. to try to make your job our job or our job your job is a real injustice for seriousness. We have a brand new chief of Patterson. We have a brand new I am the stuff that was brought up was used to can you fear? Let's fear this. Oh, we got to be afraid. And then you smear behind it. I've been down those streets with this. You smeared my grandson with no cause. Here, let me give you a a a a headline. Madison here, Tony Records released hundreds of records. They say all the way down to the bottom of that column on the seventh paragraph that nobody reads, it says his father's records. MY GRANDSON HAD ONE OF THOSE HUNDREDS of records. But everybody in THE CITY OF MADISON, GUESS WHAT? YOU BELIEVED THAT HE WAS A BAD KID SO HE COULD SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF BEING SHOT SEVEN TIMES for no reason. Now, I'm very, very passionate about this. As you can see, you do not need to

be a part of that. Michael, I have told YOU AND AARON SEVERAL times in individual emails over the last six months, STAY OUT. IT'S NOT YOUR PLACE. LET THEM DO THEIR JOB. LOOK, HERE'S THE TRUTH. YOU WANT TO VET THEM, VET THEM THROUGH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE INFORMATION SERVICE. THE SAME THING THE POLICE USE. Vet them that way. THEN EVERY BIT OF THE SECURITY PROBLEMS YOU HAVE ARE GONE.

YOU HAVE about I hear you. YOU HAVE A BRAND NEW BOTH OF THOSE. THEY CAN WORK TOGETHER. I TRUST BOTH THE NEW police office, chief of police and the IM. Give them AN OPPORTUNITY. SAY NO TO THIS because a lot of what WAS SAID WAS BASED ON lies and not TRUTH AND STUFF THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE. OKAY,

thank you. Our next registrant is Linda Ketchum of District 4 monitor and a PCO. In June of 2000's monitor and a PCOB in June of 2016, the Urban League hosted a gathering of black community leaders to respond to the violent arrest of an 18-year-old teenager who was punched, kneede, and tasered by MPD officers as she was arrested outside of Madison Mall. Dr. Gloria Ladson Billings, after reviewing the video of the brutal arrest, said, "I've seen drug dealers not get that type of treatment. Essentially, I thought that the protocol was that you tried to deescalate. There was the open letter from clergy to Mayor Sland and the common council urging them to utilize their authority under chapter 62 of the Wisconsin statutes to order the Madison Police Chief and Department to cooperate with the comprehensive review process being funded by the city. These are just a few of the incidents that led to the creation of the OMI and PCO. This context is important as you debate the proposed amendments to the ordinance. Amendments that undermine the integrity and independence of the Office of Independent Monitor and the Police Civilian Oversight Board for reasons you've already heard this evening. Madison General Ordinance 5.19 was the work of Madison alders, community members, people with lived experience, and other recognized subject matter experts, some of them internationally recognized. The council's adoption of the ad hoc committee's recommendations and the creation of the office of independent police monitor and the police civilian oversight board stand as one of those rare moments in Dayne County where the voices of people with lived experience were heard, respected, and their input was acted on. And yet repeatedly we find ourselves here working to preserve the integrity of the ordinance. It was even undermined earlier when a former police department employee was named as the interim

independent monitor for two weeks. A direct violation of the ordinance. You have about 30 seconds left.

I urge you to consider alternative language perhaps sent to you on o April 13th by Alex Cudo in his rebuttal memo to the council. That language addresses your APM concerns while preserving the structural integrity. Please reject the proposed amendments and preserve the independence and integrity and accountability of the office of independent police monitor and the police civilian oversight board. Thank you. Thank you. Our next registrant is MGR Gavind Rajan of District 8 to be followed by Elizabeth Bruno to be followed by Karen Ree. MGR MGR is online. If you can unmute him, please try that. You should be able to unmute, MGR.

Well, can you all hear me? Yes. Well, my name still says VP. That's wrong. But hi everyone. Thank you. Um, I'm here to speak in favor of the substitute version two on agenda item number 55. Much of what I'm going to be saying is in the updated legislative memo, which is attachment number one on legisar. Um, the ordinances impact Can you guys hear me? Was that muted? Yeah, we you just we lost you for a minute there.

Okay. Um, the ordinance's impact here is to provide clarification on how the OIM functions within the city processes and procedures. It was drafted after two PCOB meetings, follow-up conversations with the board members, discussions with um, alders and city staff. The goal of the substitute is to provide clarification and not to do structural change. It reinforces the OIM's independence in their core mission while emphasizing accountability in their administration. Over time, over the last couple years, there's been many one-off scenarios um in the OIM and PCOB that has led many people questioning the um the outcomes from the OIM and PCOB. Um this extent I think actually turns into a pattern and showcases the structural issues. instead. This is more about consistency and following the rules and laws, transparency with actually sending the reports to the council, which they still haven't done this year, for example. Um, and to encourage the OIM and PCOB to work within the existing city procedures. Nothing in version 2 allows the council, mayor, or city staff to interfere with the investigations, findings, or recommendations of the OIM. Those are completely fully independent and they remain so. Um earlier today I did send an email to all of the alders which immediately got caught by the spam filter. Um I appreciate Alder Madison for forwarding forwarding that email to all of the alders but I encourage you all to look at that because that email will kind of explain the major differences between Alder Glenn's alternate and the substitute in front of you. Um, I appreciate the work that Alder Glenn put into it, her alternate, um, because when she first shared it with me about two weeks ago, there were many good ideas there that uh, was incorporated into the substitute, but not everything was incorporated. So, the email kind of goes through and explains why I did choose to add some parts and not add other parts um, over the last couple weeks. I'll close with with this.

The OIM has real potential and the PCOB can really serve a great um service to our city, but for it to be able to succeed long term, it needs to be both independent and operationally sound. I believe that substitute, which is version number two on legar achieves that best. Um, I'm not going to talk too long, but if anyone has questions, 20 seconds left, right? If anyone has questions, I'll be on the Zoom. Thank you.

Thank you. Please silence your phones. Thank you very much. Our next registrant is Elizabeth Bruno of district 15 to be followed by Karen Ree to be followed by Gregory Glmbiac. Elizabeth doesn't look like we have Elizabeth in the room or on Zoom. So, we'll come back. Our next registrant then is Karen Reese of District 14 to be followed by Oh. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Is that Elizabeth or Karen? This is Karen. Sorry.

Okay. So, Karen will be followed by Gregory Glumbia to be followed by Hope Vang. Go ahead, Karen.

Thank you. I'm um speaking tonight in strong opposition of these ordinance revisions. I'm speaking tonight as a resident of district 14, but I do want to note that I work for one of the nominating organizations and it's my responsibility to nominate community members to participate on this board. So, I have um quite a bit of awareness with this and have followed the all of the work that has led up to the creation of the OIM and the PCOB. And while these entities got off to a rough start, um under new leadership, they've made so much progress. I've been really impressed in seeing all the work that they've gotten done in including a comprehensive report and um clearing some of the backlog on their record. This is a brand new initiative here in Madison. Um and but there are many examples across the country of how these independent offices need to be run to be effective. And the great thing here is we have a national expert as our interim monitor right now and we've seen the benefits of having that in house. I'm always amazed how we as a city often feel the need to reinvent the wheel or or ignore or doubt an existing evidence base on which we could be building. I understand that this may be confusing or uncomfortable because to run this effectively the OIM and the PCOB must operate differently than other city uh related entities. Um, however, we owe it to the people that put in so many years of work to bring this to fruition and more importantly, the people who have been harmed by our police department to give this the time and attention it needs um to be the great model that it can be to serve all of the residents in Madison. It's very clear from a memo issued today uh by the independent monitor that the public has not been given a full or accurate picture of what's really going on here. If

anything, it's clear that common council members and city staff need to be more communicative and consistent in engaging with this body. And they can do that without having uh a council member on the committee. And um they can do that by attending the um open meetings that already exists. we can all talk to each other um without making changes to ordinances. I'm not saying this structure is perfect because it's new um and you know evolving. There may be structural changes, but it's very premature and disruptive to um the board's work to propose ordinance changes which will um be very restrictive to adapting to what we learn as this these bodies operate going forward.

About 20 seconds left. Yep. Again, I urge you to vote uh no on these amendments and give the OIM and the PCOB the time and attention it needs to be successful. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next registrant is Gregory Colombia of District 6 to be followed by Hope Vang to be followed by Mila Rimmer. Do we have Greg? Hi, I'm Greg Alumbc and I'm the data analyst for OIM. After prayer and meditation and after consulting with various people, I've decided to engage in a such graa fast. Such graha is a term coined by Gandhi and means truth force, the force of truth. I've been fasting with only water since early yesterday afternoon and will continue doing so for now. Such a fast is not meant as a coercive measure. It is done to prick the conscience of your inter interlocator to appeal to the moral principles in fighting injustice. It is a calling in and it is done in a spirit of love. I do have concerns about this path. It is not my intent to center myself and it's and it's an unusual course of action that could lead to further disparagement. But I feel this is one of the only tools I have available now. Right now, there's a lot of false and defamatory information circulating, including about my handling of MPD files, and decisions are being made based on that misinformation. But there are truths here. The truth is not unknowable. I could tolerate defamatory claims against about myself, but not when they are being used to undermine essential aspects of our police oversight agency. And there's so so much that alters currently lack knowledge of. I will add that city staff interacting with OIP and PCOB have violated state statutes, ordinances, APMS, and my constitutional rights. I say this after having personally consulted two top attorneys, including a civil rights attorney. I have sought to act in good faith and to give people grace and to avoid opening the Pandora's box around all of that. One option is that a committee of alders

and PCB members be set up to work through the ordinance issues here or some process along those lines. I am not speaking for the office or the monitor or the PCB in suggesting this. These are my thoughts alone. The city does have some legitimate concerns and there are good reasons for PCB members to have been upset at the process so far. The process has not been collaborative. The amendments as they stand, including the alternate, would be very harmful to police oversight and have been advanced based on misinformation and a robust and independent um police oversight mechanism is essential to prevent deaths and the racial harms associated with law enforcement. Indeed, I first got involved in police reform because of the horrible death of an unarmed neighbor at the hands of MPD officer.

You have about 30 seconds left. In closing, the original design of our oversight structure and ordinances were crafted laboriously over years, consulting with experts nationally. The current process bears no resemblance to that. So I appeal to your conscience and sense of decency. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Our next registrant is Hope Vang of District 14 representing Freedom Inc. to be followed by Mila Rimmer to be followed by MT Yang. hope.

Um, hi everybody. Um, I am here today as someone who cares deeply about survivors of gender- based violence. Um, more to be specific, black and Southeast Asian women, girls, and LGBTQ people. Um, in fact, I'm also on the board specifically because I care so deeply about survivors and holding people who cause harm to survivors accountable for what they do. Um, I'm here, you know, to urge you to vote no on on these amendments. Um, specifically because we need to maintain this ordinance and keep the keep the independence of the board and the office. Um, we need to make our community, right? um needs to actually have a place that they can go to that they actually trust. This can't happen unless they are completely independent from the city. There I work with survivors day in and day out and a lot of them actually do not want to come to resources that are associated with the city because the city has not actually poured into them the way that survivors need to be poured into. And if there is um if the accountability system is tied to the city some someplace that they actually already do not trust and do not have a relationship with, they're not going to want to actually go to any place that to um hold harmdoers accountable, right? And so we need to actually maintain the independence so that survivors can have a place that they can go to that they trust. We need a formation that actually builds and cultivates and listens to the most impacted communities especially when they are harmed by police and exact you know I feel like I'm repeating myself right and I don't know how else to share with you all that actually this ordinance is stripping away the independence of the office and the board. I want to uplift the leadership of the the PCOB chair and the IPM the IPM and their work. They are e experts and they

are black women, right? And I want to really highlight that the scrutiny that is coming to the OIPM and the board is ridiculous, right? When you look at who's actually leading this work, I want you all to really think about like do are you actually passing something that is going to be for community or are you passing something because you have interpersonal conflict with the people who are leading this work? Um, I think that the escalation in in the changing of ordinances is ridiculous. When this actually doesn't happen to the police department, if you are upset with the police, you actually go to them and have discussions. That has not been made that that um that option has not been given to the PCOB or the OIPM. And if you're upset with MPD, you don't go and change law, right? you're not going to go require them to do things. I have not seen that happen, right? And I think that it's really unfair to compare the PCOB and the OIPM to MPD when they have been they have they are so well resourced.

That's your time. Thank you very much. They are so they are so well resourced and the the OIPM and the PCOB are not resourced at all at all. That's your three minutes. Give everyone three minutes and your time is up now. If the council wants to ask you to finish your statement or to answer questions, they can when we're done uh with everyone having their three minutes. Okay. Thank you. Our next registrant is Mila Rimmer of District 14 representing Freedom Inc. to be followed by MT Yang to be followed by Ariel Merritt. Do we have Milka? Milka's not here.

Okay. Thank you very much. Then do we have MT Yang of District 14 representing Freedom Inc. I think MT might be and then uh MT will be followed by Ariel Merritt who will be followed by Ye. Okay, go ahead. Hello to Commer Council. My name is Mtoya and I'm a resident here at Ding County. Thank you all for creating space and time for me to share my testimony. I'm here today to express the changes that are happening in police civilian uh oversight board. There are there are many problems with this proposal, but I will be focusing on one which requires the use of city attorney rather than a an independent attorney on the board. I oppose to having the city attorney on the PCOB. There are things that city attorneys do that are in direct conflict with independent oversight of police. These conflicts would make the police oversight board less efficient in accomplishing what they are were originally set up to do. For example, when the oversight board works on a case and they reveal some information that had occurred from the police actions, the city attorney is going to do their best to protect the police by concealing information. This is not what we want. is important that it stays as an independent attorney so that those who are most impacted by the police actions can continue to seek justice for themselves. Also, one of the mission of the oversight board is to hold the police accountable for the wrongdoing that they have done to the community. If we put a city attorney on this board, the police will be held less accountable for their actions. With this being said, I urge you to oppose to all the char changes to the police oversight board. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Our next registrant is Ariel Merritt of District 14 representing Freedom Inc. to be followed by Yeur to be followed by Jana Thompson. Do we have Ariel?

Yep. Hello. Good evening, Common Council. My name is Ariel Merritt and I am a Down Day Dne County resident and I'm here today representing Freedom, Inc. and the black and Southeast Asian survivors that we serve. I'm also here today as a community member who is deeply concerned about the changes proposed to the police civilian oversight board and the impact it will have on the effectiveness and validity of the PCOB. The PCLB was born out of necessity for and by civilians who are most impacted by policing. The role of PCOB has become even more relevant as we face a rise in surveillance and overpolicing of black and brown communities. The PCOB's purpose is clear and urgent for community members to hold police accountable when they fail to protect and serve. When incidents of police violence happen, we cannot trust the police to hold themselves accountable. The proposed changes undercut the protection protection of the PCOB and weakens its independence. To make community control and accountability possible, the PCOB must be accessible, transparent, and empowered to the people most impacted. I urge you to reject any proposed changes that reduce the board's authority, limit access to needed records, or place control back into the hands of the very systems that cause harm. That completely strips the PCOB of any legitimacy. For communities like mine, weakening the PCOB will only make us less safe. It sends a message to my people that accountability can just be negotiated away. I ask you to center the voices of our most vulnerable to policing and preserve the independence of the board. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Our next registrant is Ye Lure of District

14 to be excuse me representing Freedom Inc. to be followed by Jana Thompson to be followed by Kayana Adams. Okay, my name is one of the things I'm not too appreciative of Regarding the kids that may not get in trouble still

given penalties are being prose that some of these are being prosecuted without uh warning. Police officers are not truthfully with the the way they treated among community.

Yeah. Without the example what the Dr. king has been uh treated and they seen the other they started to uh given situation of trouble. I came to United States as a is a is a woman of soldier. I brought I brought five kids with me and I don't receive any benefits and struggle with the uh the language not be able to speak English and learning the ABC and now I have you know raised all these children on my own and they all have grown up. I am angry because I was not getting the benefits and I feel it the police officer are not treated fairly.

If I talk too much they will put me into prison as well. If you are a police officer you should be fair. And this is my angry until my death apart. This including my children some of them were put into prison.

I want to make sure that the laws are follow through in the the policies are applied. And now with, you know, putting those in prison, it's hard to find anything to to to support

and asking the police to to be fair and I ask the same thing with the ice happening right now with with uh Donald And with the some of the killing that you see, some of the incident happened recently.

This is really making me angry. We feel like we are not well. You was angry physically and you know because of my service to the military. I want you to believe my story. First arrived in Illinois and now raising five children growing out on my own.

I couldn't learn any alphabet study alphabet learning ABC. This is just for myself. That's my anger. I really feel the law should be fair and any prosecution and putting people in jail should look investigate before. I feel like our people are being uh racist and and prejudiced against your role as an police officer. You should look at your responsibility and be fair.

You have about a minute left.

Thank you. Thank you. And just for the council members not aware of the rule, when we have an interpreter, we give them a full six minutes rather than the three minutes. Um, our next registrant is Jana Thompson of District 14 representing Freedom, Inc. to be followed by Kana Adams to be followed by Avette Walker. Jana.

Hello members of the Common Council. My name is Jana. My pronouns are she, her, and hers. And I represent Freedom, Inc., an organization that serves and empowers queer, black, and southeast Asian women, girls, and gender expansive folks in uh district 14. Um the people that we serve represent uh my M elder right here. Um, and before we we talk about the incompetence of a police civilian oversight board that is, you know, reaching six years old at this point, before we point out the incompetence in in community organizations that are trying to serve and empower victims and uh survivors facing gender-based violence, um, we should really look internally at the infrastructure that we provide for these people trying to tell their stories. We heard our elder up here talking and we did not get her full story with the infrastructure that is provided by the common council. There are people here, people capable of giving that opportunity, giving that resource so that we can reach out and help everyone in our community, which is what we are supposed to be doing, which is a core function of the police civilian oversight board and independent monitor. And there are key components of this proposed amendments that will have severe, negative, disproportionate effects on the communities I live in, serve, and represent. I strongly urge the common council to reject the amendments that would change or otherwise restrict access to MPD data records and require that the independent police monitor use city attorneys for most legal work. Too often our people are questioned without legal representation, judged without due process, and incarcerated for being in poverty, living with substance abuse disorders, or surviving domestic violence and sexual assault. For queer, black, and Southeast Asian communities, especially survivors of interpersonal and gender-based violence, our people are criminalized, blamed

without hesitation. proposing policies that block pathways to police accountability, whether through providing data or whatever means to to get the legal recommendations or suggestions that would strengthen our community's control over policing moves us in the wrong direction, further widening the gap between interin interrupted police violence and access to community healing and restoration. The police civilian oversight board is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but adding an alderman to the board is too ridiculous to consider. It directly undermines the core function of the board stains the integrity of the common council. This is a governing body that suggests that they can't trust its constituents to go to an independent monitor and resolve their issues without the police. in an organization, a department that oftentimes exacerbates harms in our communities if they aren't the root causes of them. And lastly, to those who make this process unnecessarily hard, unnecessarily complicated.

That's your time. Thank you. All right. Uh, next registrant is Cayana Adams of District 14 representing Freedom, Inc. to be followed by Avette Walker to be followed by Huay Yang. Kayana.

Good evening. My name is Kayana and I am a Madison resident speaking in opposition to these proposed changes to the police civilian oversight board in the office of the independent monitor. At the center of this conversation lies one simple truth. Civilians need oversight because no institution should be able to enforce accountability onto people without having to take accountability for their actions as well. The proposed changes seem harmless, but together they would significantly weaken the independence and effectiveness of the Civilian Oversight Board in Madison. The PCO exists to serve the community with transparency, independence, and fairness. When people experience harm, misconduct, bias, or abuse of power, they need to know there is an independent body that will listen seriously. For many people, especially black communities, marginal marginalized communities, and those who have historically been overpoliced, trust is not built by asking people to blindly believe the system. Trust is built when there is visible independent accountability. Oversight also protects everyone in the community. It protects the people because we have aid when misconducts occurs and it protects officers that act in good faith as it ensures policy and standards are upheld. Our community created the oversight board to ensure safer communities for all. That purpose still matters today. I urge you to vote no to the amendments. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next registrant is Iette Walker of District 14 representing Freedom Inc. to be followed by Huay Yang to be followed by Zang Cha. Hello members of the common council. My name is Evette and I'm a Madison resident and a member of Freedom Inc. I am speaking today to urge you to vote no to the opposed OIM ordinance amendments. I am opposed to the proposed changes because this would take away the very reason why the OIM was created in the first place. It was always meant to be an unbiased independent entity apart from the police in the city. Community members wanted accountability. The creation of the OIM was the first step towards making that progress. If the changes that are being proposed go into effect, this will take away that independence. How can the OIM be independent if they are forced to rely on the city attorney instead of being able to consult independent legal counsel? The same city council that represents the police department. That is a conflict of interest at best. community members would be less inclined to bring their concerns and complaints to the OIM if these changes are made. Also, how can the OIM do a thorough investigation without having access to the police database? Seems like another tactic to hinder what this office was intended to do. I'm sure there are more reasonable ways to get these concerns accomplished rather than by dismantling a structure that the people asked for, that the council voted for, and after six years is just get is starting to work. When the common council has a problem, you do you do not strip yourselves of your powers. You try to fix the problem while you keep your powers. If there is an issue with the OIM, then let's fix that problem, not take away the minimal powers that they currently have. I will end by saying that the proposed amendments are not in favor of the community. Our interest should be considered in this important decision. I urge you all to once more to vote no. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. Our next registrant is Hua Yang of District 14 representing Freedom Inc. to be followed by Zenang Cha. I am here today in opposition of the proposed amendments. The proposed changes would have significant impacts on victims and survivors and the integrity of the OIM. I'm talking specifically about the amendment for the city to hire and the higher the to hire the data analysis and the amin role which has many moral concerns. So the first impact would be that it would reduce independence. The purpose of an independent police monitor is to provide provide oversight that is separate from the police and political pressure. If the city directly controls hiring, firing or evaluations, victims and survivors will question whether the monitor can freely investigate misconduct, especially if complaints involve city leadership, police command staff, or politically sensitive incidents. It would also cause conflict of interest. The city is often responsible for defending itself legally and financially when misconduct arises. If the same system that may that may face liability also controls the oversight of the staff, it will cause direct conflict of interest. If this happens, the community will stop reporting misconducts and it will lose trust in the OIM. It will also erose community trust. Communities, especially black, brown, immigrant, queer, trans, women, and youth. Historically overpoliced communities often rely on independent oversight because traditional systems continue to fail them. If oversight appears less independent, people will stop filing complaints or engaging with the process. These folks are most impacted by policing and passing these amendments will further exclude them from systems claiming to protect them. It will also impact investigations. Staff may feel direct or indirect pressure to avoid wrong strong findings,

public criticism, or recommendations that challenge police leadership or city administration if their jobs depend on those same structures. And if the transition causes current staff to leave, the office may lose institutional knowledge, relationship with impacted communities, and investigate investigative expertise. The current systems don't work for our communities. So we should not replicate or use the same systems to oversee this office of indep independent monitor. Even if the city says the change is administrative, we will interpret it as political control over our over administrative administrative oversight. Think about the consequences. The impact is real to our community. You're continuing to risk our lives and we ask you to stop.

You have about 30 seconds left. community has been impacted for so long. We have been in the streets. We have been fighting. We have been using our time to fight for ourselves and our communities. If you want to be the pro progressive example, vote against these amendments. Thank you. Our next registrant is Zang Cha of District 14 representing Freedom Youth Squad to be followed by Max Ramu to be followed by Zan Mua.

Good evening Cowan Council elders. My name is Zang and I am a 10th grader who attends Madison West High School. I am also a youth organizer at Freedom Inc. I am also here to represent my black and Southeast Asian Freedom Youth Squad leaders and say that we stand in a o a position of the proposed changes to the police civil oversight board. Just six years ago, Freedom Inc. successfully organized the police free school campaign to remove Madison police department MPD out of Madison Metropolitan Schools. We did this not only to get rid of the institution of policing in schools but also to move towards community control. Community control is important because without the voice of those most valuable, we are failing to do them justice. the the proposed change take away the independence of the PCOB and violate the very reason we are push pushing for community control. For community control to work, we must be pushing for policies that strengthen the voice of the people. With this being said, we urge you to oppose the changes to the police civil oversight board. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. Our next registrant is Max Ramo of District 14 representing Freedom Action Now to be followed by Zan Moa to be followed by Erica Bach. Max, my name is Max Raone. I'm representing uh Freedom Action Now and a uh as a member and also a supporter of Freedom Inc. So in 2020 when urban rebellions were spreading across the country, local governments responded in a combination of two ways. One is they tried to crack down on those protesting against the murder of black and other people of color. And the second is they tried instituting a series of fake reforms. And those fake reforms were not designed to improve the lives or the democratic processes uh uh uh in the communities of the people who were impacted, but instead were intended to confuse people into thinking that these were acceptable levels of change and therefore they did not need to join in or continue with the protests. It is important to note that in order to sell these fake reforms, they were usually presented by elected officials who were black or people of color. As the scenes of urban rebellion get more comfortably in the rearview mirror, many of these governments reveal just how fake these reforms were and started rolling them back to the way things were before the protests uh uh uh began and before the governments were forced to respond to the outrage of the people. Those of us in fan like our friends at Freedom Inc. support the democratization of public institutions including employees of institutions who are paid to carry guns and given the right to deprive people of their liberties. Uh so therefore we support community control over police and that means that we tell police what they do in our communities. Police don't tell us and then avoid accountability from us. I remember when our friends at Freedom Inc. were working on this very ordinance to get this board created and they reached out to a group of their

supporters and they asked us our opinion about what the proposal was like, how it was shaping up, etc. uh they were very excited about the possibilities and potentials and asked my opinion particularly as it related to other boards in the country that I was uh uh aware of and I said that the proposal seems to be on paper anyway one of the strongest with a lot of really strong elements including community engagement to seat board members subpoena power concurrent investigations and a whole other series of voice so therefore they were excited to hear of course this had a strong elements so I said therefore this will never work and they asked if it had such strong powers why won't it work and I reminded them of an old saying in radical movements. If voting or civilian oversight worked, they would make it illegal. The reason voting and civilian oversight are completely legal is those in power know that they can prevent it from being effective. They can prevent it from working. So I advise that either this would never pass and presented as presented or it will pass and once it's passed while the uh uh the board is is uh starting to get up and running it will be completely undermined. uh before it gets fully up to full speed and that was in 2020. So I invite members of this community to consider these ideas. When Madison police murdered Tony Robinson in 2015, calls for community control and civilian oversight over the police were ignored even though thousands of people engage in mass protests of course.

I'm sorry that's your time. Thank you. Our next registrant is Zan Mua of District 14 representing Freedom Action Now to be followed Erica Bach to be followed by Nathan Royok Mau Zan. Hi, my name is Jeong Mo. My pronouns are she, her, hers. And uh thank you for being here tonight. I know this is probably going to be a long night. Um I'm a longtime resident of Madison and an organizer with Freedom Action. Now, as Max said, share, we're a C4 organization building the power um building people and political power of black and Southeast Asian survivors. And I'm here tonight like many of the folks before me to really urge you all to move forward uh to not move forward with the proposed amendments. Um particularly the provision requiring the monitor to rely on the city attorney for legal counsel. These bodies were created because our community needed real accountability and independence and um that means that oversight that is controlled by the same systems that it's supposed to hold accountable does not work. Right? That is exactly what the proposal is doing. It is um uh right and requiring the monitor to rely on the city attorney creates a clear structural structural conflict of interest. The city attorney's office represents the city as a municipal entity and that includes the police department. That just does not make sense. It just does not work. Um and so I I wanted to also talk about um some national standards, right? specifically from the National Association for Civilian Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement um and how they have identified independence as a core principle of effective oversight systems

and that includes independence in the decision-making authority, independence in access to information and critically independence in legal counsel. Um so similarly right um uh with the US Department of Justice civil rights division they have also repeatedly emphasize that oversight bodies must be free from actual and perceived conflicts of interest and once again having the city attorney represent the office is a direct conflict of interest. Um, and this proposal risk placing Madison in that position. Um, from a policy standpoint, requiring the monitor to go through the city attorney may constrain legal interpretations related to investigative authority, limit the ability to challenge the denials of access to police records, introduce delays in ongoing investigations, and ultimately it weakens the enforcibility of oversight findings. about 20 seconds left.

What it's supposed to do for the community. So if anything, my question is does the city of Madison, does the mayor and common council want control of the office and the PCOB? Because for my understanding, those things are accountable to the community.

That's your time. Thank you very much. Our next registrant is Erica Bach of Middleton, Wisconsin to be followed by Nathan Reiko Mau to be followed by Amelia Roy. Do we have Erica? Erica, you should be able to unmute yourself. All right, there you are. Thank you, mayor. Thank you, members of the body. Um, there's not a lot that I can speak to that, um, others haven't said or that you haven't hopefully read in your emails. I just want to highlight some of the historical importance for our newest um, council members and congratulations on all of the reelected positions um, because you've been part of this fight for a very long time. And so, um, it's not lost on members of the community that we have been asking for community control of the police, which is far more of a radical idea than what, um, is before you tonight. And so, what the, um, amendment and the substitutions that you have before you um, does, I think, in some ways, codify what the original asks and requests were. Um, in in an ideal society, we would free up our police officers from doing um social services work. We've heard from a number of Madison Police Department uh officials um that they would rather not be social workers um and oftenimes they find themselves in those situations. So if you were to look at the sheer budget perspective of what having a independent monitor, an office of an independent monitor and what having a police civilian oversight board, um the cost of

it, the efficiencies of those are less than 1% of the Madison Police Department's budget. It would truly be a failure not to maintain the standards um that uh independent monitor Glass has put into place and that current the current PCOB has been following um over the last 12 months and as you may have seen in public record um can be verified by the city attorney's office and specifically by Erin Hilson um is the idea that any of the concerns that were presented in the original amendment um by Alder MGR um are no longer present. That's it's not anything that we would need you all to concern yourselves with or we as the community ought to be concerned with. Um and I think that some of this is is truly just a like a jockeying for political position. um who has the trending topic at the moment and if the OIM and PCO are of interest um then their meeting minutes can be noted. They're all on legisar. You all are welcome to read them. Um I've offered to

seconds left. Thank you. I've offered to every single member of the committee as well as to this community um to go through and highlight the incredible work that has been done certainly in the last 12 months. um it would just really truly be a shame to change that now. This is 11 years in the making. Please do not make these changes and please vote to oppose any of the uh substitutions. Thank you. Thank you. Our next registrant is Nathan Reichomar of Arena, Wisconsin representing the community response team to be followed by Amelia Reichomar to be followed by Bonnie Row. Nathan,

members of the common council and mayor, thank you in advance for my three minutes. I'm here to address the public record that has been systematically distorted to undermine the independence of the office of the independent police monitor. The evidence attached to the independent monitor's memo released today reveals a pattern of of misinformation designed to support a specific political outcome. That's the dismantling of civilian police oversight in Madison. First, we must address the documented fabrications used to generate public mistrust. City staff misled the chief of police into believing an OIPM staff member gave an unauthorized interview, attacking the department. Despite the monitor informing the chief that afternoon that no such interview occurred, the fabrication was allowed to stand, resulting in a front page headline that damaged the offic's reputation based on a lie. Similarly, the mayor's chief of staff sent a written scolding characterization of the monitor 4 days before he had even met her. These are not mere misunderstandings. They are factual impossibilities entered into the legislative record to justify restrictive amendments. Second, the administrative risks cited by former Alder Goinder Rajin have been refuted by the very department heads he claimed to represent. HR director Hilson and IT director Edjetin confirmed in writing that the concerns raised were either pre-tenure issues or entirely non-existent under current leadership. Most disturbingly, city attorney Hos reportedly admitted that the alder misunderstood these concerns. Yet he assisted in uploading that mischaracterization into Legistar while omitting the contradicting evidence. Third, we face a structural conflict of interest that makes independence impossible. The city attorney currently represents both the police department and the office charged with overseeing it. This has resulted in the city attorney advising the MPD to withhold records from the monitor, leaving the monitor with no counsel to challenge that decision. The city attorney has further coordinated with the sponsor of the proposed amendments to restrict the

monitor's access to independent counsel all while serving the monitors assigned as the monitor's assigned lawyer. This is a documented violation of the original ordinance instantiating the OIM which prohibits officials from using their positions to undermine the monitor's independence. The city already provides independent counsel for the board of public works and the police and fire commission to avoid similar conflicts. There is no legitimate reason to deny the OIPM that same structural protection. The community was promised genuine independent oversight. As independent oversight mechanisms are brutally dismantled at every level of the federal government, I urge you to reject the amendments in Legisar File 92386 and stand on the side of the ordinance this community was promised.

The OIPM was not will not be silenced and should not be policed by the very entities it is mandated to oversee. Thank you.

Thank you. Our next tradition is Ameilia Roy Kumar of Arena, Wisconsin to be followed by Bonnie Row to be followed by Edward Kuharski. Amelia, thanks. I just want to let the uh those pushing this forward to know that if you win tonight, you're not beating me. You're not beating Greg, which everybody seems so obsessed with. You're not beating the IM. You're beating the parents and the loved ones whose loved ones were died or killed in Madison police custody. You're beating Sharon Irwin. You're beating the mother that was sitting at the door wanting to go hold her child but couldn't touch their dead body because their evidence. Those are the people you're beating. You're not beating me. You're not beating the CRT. I'm going to start by saying contrary to the chief's memo and statement in a recent article that some of you have posted and shared and that we saw in Bonnie Rose uh image on Next Door, an AI image of Greg Gilmbbeic. Uh Greg did not violate any rules. He did not have records with sensitive data uh with victim's names. He didn't have any of that. He had traffic, contact, and arrest data with no names, no way to identify anyone. And perhaps the chief is thinking of someone else he gave those records to, but it wasn't Greg. Greg was using the program R, and R is approved by this city. Greg was given permission to analyze the data on his computer by his supervisor. Greg followed those rules. That was all cleared up prior to IPM Mika Glass coming on board and records are now flowing and yet it is being used for

political currency. Again, that doesn't harm anybody but the parents who have lost loved ones or have loved ones who need some kind of transparency here. Uh, additionally, um, the chief was told that Greg had given an unauthorized sitdown interview with the Wisconsin State Journal, claiming the MPD was denying the office data. That never happened. Who's responsible for that? That's something you should be looking into. Uh the chief of staff, Sam Munger, sent an email on April 4th stating that Mika had scolded him on several occasions, but she didn't meet Munger until April 8th. That is something you should be looking into. You should be looking into the two officers who got caught drinking and driving. Those are the amendments you should be making to ordinances. This group has more experience in police oversight than anybody else in the state. Sit down with them. Show them some respect and ask how you can solve your concerns, but look into what they're doing. You never might you you don't know when you might need them. Okay? I didn't think I'd need them and I did. So, start looking inward. The bigger ordinance violations will be dealt with at a later time. Thank you. Our next registrant is Bonnie Row of District 11 to be followed by Edward Kuharski to be followed by Maya Pearson. Good evening, chair and members of the common council. I'm here to urge a yes vote on this item. I'm a big believer in police oversight. I think it's critical. Our police department welcomes it, too. But I think there is a big misunderstanding here tonight. The word independence has been used a lot. Investigative independence is a high value, but administrative non-compliance is a liability to the city, to victims, etc. These amendments are not an attack

on oversight. It's a needed security patch to ensure proper adherence to city policies and procedures. Like every other taxpayer funded department. These amendments provide guidance about legal procedures and compliance. The city's at city attorney's office is not involved in OIM complaint processing or investigating. So representing MPD on a city matter at the same time is not a problem. The office of the city attorney has authority and a statutory duty to conduct the legal business of the city. Why should the city rely on outside counsel to advise city agencies when that attorney is not responsible for representing the city in potential litigation? As you likely know, the OIM is authorized to retain separate counsel for its core duties of processing complaints, conducting investigations, and oversight activities. Every department, but especially those involving victims, and sensitive information, needs to do everything possible to mitigate security risks. Standards need to be met. Training and processes are crucial and must be adhered to. There must be compliance to basic reporting standards, open records response, accessibility requirements, and security measures. There's also compliance with APMS. There are human resource concerns, ensuring legal standards in the hiring process. We've seen what can happen. Some of us taxpayers are getting tired of bailing the city out on bad decisions. There are much better things to spend our money on than needless lawsuits. There are labor standards that need to be followed as well. And then there is the financial compliance, purchasing equipment, software, etc. within city policies. While independence and its core function is important, extending that

independence to areas such as compliance with city policies and legal requirements creates risk not just for the OIM, but for the city as a whole. If these risks are not addressed and result in avoidable liability for the city about 20 seconds, I believe the council would be compelled to take steps to mitigate that risk, including re-evaluating the structure, oversight, and funding of the OIM and PCOB, which is why I believe that adopting these amendments is beneficial to both the city and the office in the long run. And I urge you to vote yes. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. Our next registrant is Edward Koharsski of District 6 to be followed by Maya Pearson to be followed by Vanessa Stadium. Ed,

hello again. Yeah, Ed Koharsski, local architect and um housing advocate etc. And uh I've been watching this process go on and you know I to remind us all that we this started by the four shocking things events that happened in my neighborhood you know at that near that intersection of Baldwin and Wnebago and and Will Willie Street. I mean, and uh you know what they all have in common was that there was um a shocking amount of impatience and arrogance displayed by by the police. And I don't think that those uh violations of actual police policy and decency have been addressed. Okay. And a previous speaker mentioned that, oh well, our police aren't racist because well, there's no lawsuits at the federal level or something like that. But you know, the the let's look at the facts. It was reported today that Dane County has now slipped to second most uh racial disparities in the nation in the nation than it used to be first. Okay. So you can call that improvement, I guess. Just like we can say that when youth uh racial disparities in the justice system shrink from 200 to one versus white folks to 100 to one that that's great improvement. Well, sort of, but 100 is still pretty bad number, you know. So, uh, you know, Paul Yenan and Tony Robinson and the the man who was executed, uh, that was in the the restroom at the gas station on Willie Street who was only endangered to himself with that knife, who was then executed so he wouldn't hurt himself with that knife. Uh, you know, this is a little hard to swallow as a a case that we're don't need to improve. And when that happened, I remember that Chief Williams

poo pooed the idea that we should look at the Memphis model uh and uh because we're good. We're really good here in Madison, arrogant and blind to the the reality. Uh there is a culture in all police I think that shifts the agenda in the middle of an incident from care and concern and deescalating the situation to you're challenging my authority and I'm impatient because I'm a man and I'm in charge and if you look like you're not responding to my orders, which happens a lot with mentally ill people by the way, in about 30 seconds,

then I have license to kill And you know that's that's Tony Robinson, that's Paulie Henan, that's the guy from Housing Initiatives who came out of the water at the south end of Baldwin Street. It hasn't gotten better than I know. Fortunately, I haven't heard of any executions of that level lately, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Now, the manager I think has important. It's one thing I've learned in my too many years of life here is that every organization I'm going to just say this quickly, Edward, that's your time. Thank you. Everybody has three minutes. Important Eeyore for this city. And this is your three minutes. Happy to say more if you want.

Our next region is Maya Pearson of District 14 to be followed by Vanessa Stadium to be followed by Elizabeth Bruno. Maya.

Hey, good evening. Um, congratulations to the new alders and those that won their um, election. I have a new alder in my um, aldermeic uh, district. So, hey Noah. Um, I just wanted just to say that I think all of the documents are pretty much there. I think, um, we have sent many documents to you all. Hopefully, they're not in your spam. Um, and I'm speaking in opposition to all of the amendments tonight, not necessarily to say to close off the conversation with you all. Um, I'm thankful for Alder. Matthews and for Alder uh Glenn for bringing forth um an amendment to the amendment. I feel like I say this a lot, amendment to amendments, entrance to entrance. Um and so it's not to close off the conversation, but it's really to say that we haven't had a chance to talk about this version um of um of these amendments. And I just want to just highlight just a couple things because I'm sure we've heard we we've already heard from most people tonight um with concerns and I'm here to talk later if you guys want. But one thing I did um as I was preparing was I went through the rules for the PFC. I went through the ordinance for the PFC. I went through the state statutes for the PFC's um in our state. I went through the MPD ordinance. I went through um statutory um ordinance for police departments and police chiefs and such um just to prepare to see what actually exists. And what I can tell you right now in the ordinance for the city of Madison, there is not that much requirements for our police, fire, and commission. I know we've heard a lot of people talk about them as accountability. Yes, they do have um the

power of discipline that we do not possess, but we exist purely for the community. It is a board that I am proud to sit on now for 5 years. Um despite any hiccups that we may have had in the past um and I'm proud to continue doing this work alongside some really great people and our intram intimate independent monitor and the folks that work in the office of the independent monitor. Um, and so when I look at these things about the PFC and NPD, there aren't any, um, strainous requirements of reporting. Um, when I look at what needs to be reported, there isn't much there. Um, I don't even know where to find if there are requirements for the PFC to report other than disciplinary actions.

About 20 seconds left. Um, I would implore you all to also look at, if people keep talking about our lawsuits, we've only had three. Um if you look at the institution of policing look at how many they have had in addition to the cost of the city to um to pay out in lawsuits and the mechanism for us is to help ensure that we can mitigate that in the future. So again like I said that's your um I am here for any questions later. Hopefully we don't go too late. Our next registrant is Vanessa Statum of District 3 and then we'll check for Elizabeth Bruno and Mila Bmer. Vanessa.

Hello everyone. My name is Vanessa Stadm and I'm a resident of Madison. I am also a black woman um and I am also a licensed clinical social worker. I have had worked previously for Dayne County Human Services serving in the role of a child protection social worker and a youth justice worker and led many groups um in the community to just support um young people that are getting in uh different challenges um at Lfallet High School uh surrounding the death of Tony I met his grandmother, Sharon. Um, there was a big meeting that happened at Lafallet High School. I do believe that uh Sabrina um Madison, president, I believe you were also there. Um, I'm not here to like argue the alternate realities of people that are not having to deal with racism here in the community, either personally or through our police force. I am here to bring attention to that it does exist. I'm very happy that that is not your reality, but it is a reality for many people here living in Dane County. Um the PCOB is evidence-based process, right? that is in many communities here uh in the United States and it brings uh opportunity for empowerment for populations that are not always heard or have any type of process to to uh uphold um their rights. Okay. I think that it is concerning I am a newly appointed member of the PCOB. I serve on

the exec board. uh the full board and also the community engagement board. Um these interactions that our community residents have with law enforcement are very impactful. They impact their uh their mental health, their physical health, and their communities when these uh occurrences take place. I would like to really see more collaboration with these uh amendments. I am in opposition of these amendments and as a newly uh appointed board member I really feel that it is because we are really working hard.

You have about 20 seconds left. I wasn't here before. I am here now. I'm a person that is dedicated to uh this community and have done so and worked really hard in different capacities my entire time. And if I felt like this was not a board that was uh working or moving in a a positive direction, I wouldn't be there. So, thank you very much and good night. Thank you. All right. Um I want to check for Elizabeth Bruno of district 15 or Mila Rimmer of District 14 are either here. Milka,

good evening. Council, Chair, Mayor. Um, y'all have heard a lot this evening. I had a whole thing written up, but to avoid rehashing, I'm just going to tell you how I'm feeling in this moment. Um, I work at Freedom, Inc. I manage our youth justice initiatives. Um, I work with a lot of young people who have a range of lived experience, all of whom are black and brown. Um, and to be really honest with you, every day I'm absolutely aruck at what they have experienced in terms of policing at the age of 11, at the age of 13. Not even, you know, they haven't even entered the workforce yet. They've barely entered the community. They're still learning who they are. They're still learning learning where they fit in the city of Madison. and they've had experiences that nobody has taken accountability for. That makes me angry beyond belief. Um, it is my responsibility and my calling to be able to lift these young people up, but I need I need the folks in office to be doing the same thing. I need us to sit down. I need us to recognize that there are a lot of conversations we need to be having and a lot of these ordinances are hashing tiny little strips away from the overall independence and capacity of the board. Um I'm seeing things related to, you know, whether or not folks are have the capacity to even report a certain way. I've heard folks talk about, you know, this the city of Madison Police Department needing to report a certain way. This civilian oversight board has a minuscule budget compared to the vast budget of the police department. Um, they have limited capacity, limited staff. Staff are working as hard as they possibly can. Board members are

committing their free time, their energy, their love for community to this work. And it's important that we be we hold them in that work. We need to do and make decisions that support the work that they're doing instead of making more tasks for them. Instead of making their work harder, instead of taking away from what they're trying to do, this is a real opportunity for Madison, the city of Madison, Dayne County, and the state of Wisconsin to lead the way in what civilian oversight looks like. We are behind in terms of civilian oversight for the police. About 30 seconds left.

I believe that there are folks in this room who care deeply for community. I care deeply for community. The folks I showed up with care deeply for community. And we need to show that in the way we make decisions. Thank you. Thank you. I'll try one last time for Elizabeth Bruno of District 15. Okay, that is all the registance wishing to speak on this item. register saying that they registered.

I I am keep refreshing and I don't have any other registrants that are registered to speak. So if folks want to try again um everything everyone else I have is registered as available to answer questions or not wishing to speak. Where should we forward our confirmation email to Karen? I'll come over. I'll stand in formal for a minute. Alder Viver, I'm wondering if maybe we would take a fivem minute recess to allow this to be Is there a second for a fiveminute recess?

Is there any objection to taking a 5minute recess? Seeing no objection, it is 8:35. We'll be back at 8:40.

Congratulations. I saw I saw your I saw first

Okay, folks. I think we have at least a workaround. So, um, if we can get the alders in the room to take their seats and the alders on Zoom to come back and we'll just wait a minute to make sure that we can get everybody back. So, we'll start in about a minute. Okay, I will call back into order the common council meeting of April 21st, 2026 and ask the clerk to call the role.

Thank you. Alder Glenn here. Glenn is present. Alder Ugger here. Is present. Alder Harrington McKini present. Harrington McKini is present. Alder Lanka here. Lella is present. Alder Lieberman here. Alder Lieberman is present. Alder Madison here. Madison's present. Alt Martinez Rutherford present. Aler Martinez Rutherford is present. Alder Matthews here. Matthews is present. Alder mayor here. Mayor is present. Alder O'Brien here. O'Brien is present. Ald Oh, present. Alderovich is present. Alder Pritchette here. Al Pritchette is present. Alder Tishler. Yeah, I'm here. Tisher is present. Alder Vidiver here. Alder Vidiver is present. Alder Jeang.

Sorry. And let note that Alder is also present. Apologies. Alder Duncan here. Duncan is present. Alder Evers here. Alder Evers is present. Alder Field here. Alder Field is present. Alder Fig Cole here. Fig Cole is present. Madame Mayor Will.

Thank you. And with apologies for the technical difficulties. We're just going to do a workaround because who knows how long it will take to actually figure out what's wrong. Um it appears that some registrations are coming through on the electric electronic system and others are not. So um of the folks in the room um that I understand wish to speak still I have Stephanie Raric Shadira Kilfoy Flores and Rebecca Kembell. If there is anybody else in present in the room that wishes to speak um please come up and let the clerk know. Um and then I'll ask the folks that are are here going to speak to please just state which aldermanic district you're in. Um so the alders can know that. Um, and then if there's anybody online that wished to speak but was having trouble with the registration system or I didn't, you thought you registered and I didn't call your name, would you please email clerk@c cityofmadison.com? That's clerk@c city ofmadison.com um and indicate your name, what aldermanic district you're in, and that you wish to speak. And then um we will call you uh after the folks in the room. And apologies. I don't know what the software problem is, but our crack IT team is trying to figure it out as we speak. So, uh, with that said, we'll finish out public comment on item 55. Um, starting with Stephanie Rurick to be followed by Shadira Kilfoy Flores to be followed by Rebecca Kembell. Stephanie, thank you. And I know it's a long night. I'm Stephanie Rarick from District 6 and I serve on the PCOB for about the last year and I just want to make a few points that I don't think I've heard made yet. Um I feel like this process has really reinforced uh my perception of our need for independent counsel and

one of the reasons are um the number the the items that have been stated as things that need to be rectified by these ordinance amendments are primarily relics of last of previous years. Um, as I think most of you know, most of the PCOB changed over over the last year. And we've done, and this is not to disparage the previous members who did a great job setting up an office to start with no staff, but we've done a lot to remedy what has been perceived as problems, including hiring an excellent independent monitor or interim independent monitor. One of the things that I keep hearing mischaracterized about what's going on with us is it's been stated repeatedly sometimes by people in city staff that we are saying we don't need to follow the law and city ordinances. The ordinance as it stands the beginning of the sentence about independent council says within all applicable laws federal, state, local laws. So it is covered that we need to operate within the law when we seek independent counsel. And the way this issue has been characterized and frankly mischaracterized to alders, I don't know where it's coming from and why, but the mistakes tend to go the same direction to support power and control and resistance to civilian oversight of policing. You've heard from a lot of people, including myself, who are only here giving our time because friends and neighbors have been killed in our neighborhoods. So, we are seeking a level of independence that this ordinance provides. It as it currently stands, uh it could be a model for the country and I hope that you will embrace

that. Um, and then one last piece that I wanted to mention is one of the consistent advice we get from the city city attorney and one of the reasons that it was stated by the initial sponsor of the amendments that we have to be so adversarial is because of open meetings law and we can't talk to each other. There are ways we can talk to each other with an open meetings law. And I will really invite all of you to work with us and work with the city attorney to figure out how we do it and start to collaborate on this instead of having this adversarial destructive relationship that's wasting our time. Thank you. Thank you.

And you got two reports submitted to you within the last several months. Our next registrant is Shadira Kilfoy Flores to be followed by Rebecca Kumbell.

Good evening, Mayor. Thank you. Um hello council. I want to first congratulate um Alders Sabrina Madison and Carmela Glenn on their new posession uh positions. Thank you so much for serving. Um I am in district six. So Davey is my alder. Um so I'm not going to reiterate very much that was already shared. I'm going to share a little bit. um more on a personal level. So, first I also want to thank our interim monitor, Miss Glass. Thank you so much for taking on this monstrosity. Um it's a lot. It's a lot. And it was a lot to do for free for years with a $100 a month stipend. There were very many weeks where I put in 15 and 20 hours. So, say what you will about the past leadership. I was our vice chair and then I was our chair and I put countless hours in. We had a former alder who offered to do our annual report who never did it. So former alder I'm not going to even mention his name. He's just not here. So um we the board the former board thought that it was very important to have an independent monitor independent of the city. That was part of why we had chosen somebody who had a legal p who was an attorney because we knew that that independence was important to have. So, not only does the board need to have independence from the city, but independence from the from being under the thumb of MPD. the fact that Andrew Shower was the appointed attorney to

this board. Nobody I was the only person on the board who knew what Andrew Shower used to do. He used to be the attorney for the police union. That's important. When he and I met in person for the very first time, he said, "I'm so glad to be on the other side. There is no side here folks. The side is right and wrong. The truth or a lie. We are here because people have been hurt. And to take away the indep independence from this board goes exactly against what is actually needed. So what I'll also share personally is when I approached Davey about had he he about this amendment he said I don't know why the board's so upset and I said because you never spoke to them

and same thing for MGR and then he didn't even show up here in person. So how are we supposed to take these seriously these amendments to impose on a body that has already been extremely imposed upon. Thank you. Have a good night.

All right. I believe having checked emails that our last registrant wishing to speak is Rebecca Keumbell of District 18. Hi everybody. Just had back surgery on pain med. So maybe I get an extra minute for talking. I don't know. March 6th, 2015, um I was in the former incarnation of this room. Um videotaping an alder candidate thing for the League of Women Voters when my phone started blowing up about there's been a shooting on Willie Willie Street. And from that moment on, even before I was elected, especially after I was elected, police accountability was my thing. I took leadership in every aspect of police accountability that that those councils, the 2015 to 2017, 2017, 2019, 2019, 21 councils uh um did. So I am the author of this ordinance. along with there were two other alders at the time um who were on the workg group and the I find it interesting that the city attorney um could speak to our intent and say that these amendments were in line with our intent when he forbade us to even speak to the first PCO about our legislative intent at their organizational meeting. So the PCOB, it breaks my heart to hear former members talk about, oh, we were, you

know, we've had some troubles. This body has been administratively captured until until recently until December. And when I read this first report from our new IM, I broke down in tears. I thought, my god, we're finally doing it. We're doing it after all these years of the mayor trying to cut the budget, the mayor trying to bring it under her office, of the slander of staff that was so bad that our mayor, thank you, at one point had to order the former city attorney to publicly apologize to him for the slander. Ordered assistant, another assistant city attorney to apologize for the slander on social media. This slander of OIM staff has been is part of the overall opposition to police accountability in this city. And those of you who are participating it know that you you you can't say you're for police accountability and you participate in that rumor mongering. Anyways, I I don't mean to chastise you. I really don't. I I want to say, do you know how this is this thing is that we have? Do you guys know how precious this is? How s with this subpoena power of both of these bodies, even as captured at it, it has been the police have not extrajudiciously killed people for whom their loved ones are asking for help. If you could wrap up. Okay, just yet one more thing please. I can't imagine any one of you writing an ordinance change to any other department without consulting them or the boards that they work with. I can't imagine it. Yet time and time again, you do it for this. Please act as a body as we did when we passed this. We

were unanimously. You could wrap up Rebecca, please. We acted as a body, not as individual alders, because the community was crying for justice and we gave it to them.

Thank you. If I could ask um the last three speakers, if you haven't already forwarded your confirmation emails um to Karen, if you could forward them to the clerk, please. We're trying to track down what the software problem is, and I think that would help us. Thank you. Okay, I believe that that is everyone who is wishing to speak. Just check on email again if there's anybody else. Okay. Uh so now we will proceed to questions for registrants if there are any. Alder hearing McKini. Thank you. I would like um Dr. Gimick.

Do we Is Greg still here? Please come forward Greg. Thank you. Alders, if you u we'll we'll take one person at a time. So, if you have questions for Greg, if you'd raised your hand, um I'll put you on the queue. If you have questions for somebody else, we'll wait and then start again. Okay. Go ahead, Alder.

Okay. Thank you. Um, Greg, you you mentioned um in your presentation, you said collaboration a couple of times and I have three of these documents before me and when you speak about collaboration, what's missing? What were what point were you trying to make when you said that? Um, you said collaboration.

The collaboration would mean talking with the PCOB first before coming out with, you know, a detailed ordinance amendment and actually the first PCO meeting were um the ordinance amendments came up. The um the ordinance amendments had just appeared just before the meeting. people had no time to look at them, to really reflect on them, to interpret them. Um, that's not that's the opposite of what I consider collaboration. Collaboration is like elders talking to Mika, talking to the PCOB and then formulating out of that jointly with the PCOB and MA what would make sense. Um that's why when I was talking about one of the things I was suggesting would be um something like a committee that contained PCB members maybe the PCB external policy procedure committee and alders where things could be hashed out like I I do think there are some legitimate issues here. Um and that that is what I mean by collaboration. Does does that answer your question?

That definitely answers my question. And I can't believe that uh we're on the same page because we've never been. But that's what I'm straightforward. But that's what I wanted to hear. I wanted you to describe what collaboration looked like, what was missing, and how we can get to not three different documents, but co against one. Thank you. I just want to mention it's really nice to be on the same page. like years ago. You might you might not remember, but I um actually canvased for you in an auto race.

Greg, don't go away yet. Um so, uh President Madison, questions.

Uh thanks, Mayor. So, just one quick question. In your uh comments earlier, you mentioned that there are legitimate concerns. What are the legitimate concerns? I don't want to go into too much detail yet, but like um like it does make sense that general policies be followed the but the devil's in the details and I think that the current um ordinance amendments don't do what's required to protect the independence. But you know there there are elements where I can see where people are coming from where alders are coming from and um but that should be dealt with as I as I was just saying in a collaborative process which hasn't happened to this point

if that makes sense. Any are there any other questions for Mr. Glmbiac? Uh yes I just want just to clarify I just want to make sure I'm writing slow. So you're saying the general policy should be follow through but to get there there should be uh more collaboration to get there is what you're saying like in the details because the devil is in the details.

Okay. I Okay. Um APMS could Okay. If the amendment, you know, the the original amendment were to pass, for example, um APMS could be written that undermine the ability of the OIM to function properly, etc., etc. Um there has to be very careful thought put into in in a collaborative fashion into how to set things up with regard to you know what policies you know should be followed and and how um different departments should be consulted etc. Um and that hasn't happened to this point. there needs to be, you know, as as as all the speakers been have been speaking to, um, a really strong preservation of independence, but that doesn't mean that you can't have, you know, some of the things alders might want. I I don't know if I'm making sense, but, you know, I've I've I've had inadequate sleep and I'm fasting. So,

Gotcha. Just one uh last uh question. Um, and so last year when the AI policy was shared, I think Robin was still here. How has that been shared with new leadership if if it was shared? Oh, the the AA policy. Yeah. So, I'll actually I can go through the details of exactly what transpired.

Um, the depart OAM was never emailed um the AI policy. So initially you know other other people had it but we had no idea that you know there was such a policy. I happened to be talking with Tamika in HR and you know she she she started complaining about how the a prohibition was negatively impacting her work. That's the first I heard of it. Then I asked her you know could you send me a copy? And she sent me a copy. Um the original policy I don't remember the exact dates but it but maybe it started like March 25. it was set to expire in six months. Um there we never were informed that the policy was um was going on beyond that point. And actually um if if somebody were interested, they could verify that by asking it to check my emails um because there was no email that was provided to us. Um that that the original six-month prohibition had been extended. Um also the AA policy is not um posted publicly or at least has not been. um ma had absolutely no way of knowing that you know that there was such a policy because there was the lack of you know it it wasn't available in a publicly posted you know forum and a website and it wasn't emailed to us. Um, yeah. Like, and like with the with the report, I I actually was very like I I only had like maybe data proofreaded and I was very focused on the contents. I never even noticed the two capitals.

Thank you. Just to clarify, the former policy that was I think you got from Tama in HR, correct? uh was in place like a temporary policy for six months or so. Correct. And then you were unsure whether or not there was anything that went beyond the six months, right? The the the temporary policy said, you know, that this is a temporary thing that that will last for like 6 months.

Um so I I had no idea that the policy, you know, was then put back into effect and and I didn't it didn't really matter to me because I never use AI. um you know because of the hallucination problem like when I very first started I I tried to see if AI could accurately summarize um like community listening sessions and it was hallucinating you know so I I don't and you know I don't use AI so it didn't matter to me thank you thank you older Alder Glenn question answered any other questions for Mr. Glambiac. Alder Pritchette.

Was I relatively cogent? Well, so far at least you answered Alder Glenn's question, but Alder Pritchette has a question for you now. Alder Pritchette. Yes. My question relates to data.

You know, data comes in a variety of flavors from public to confidential to secure on down the line. Now, in some of the literature that I read, it stated that an unauthorized computer, your personal computer was used. Now, I know personally what it means to have a data breach. Personally, I've known people who have been executed because of a data breach. So my concern then is when the city of Madison has an IT department that requires confidentiality and there is a breach. What does one do? What does one say to have others believe that this data is secured? that it's not going to be out there for public consumption. This is critical especially when we talk about policing. Now I'm talking about this from a very very personal perspective and I think it's very very important that we are mindful of the need to utilize the technology that we have especially when it is to be secured.

Answer your question in great detail. Um the first of all there's been gross mischaracterization of the nature of the data that I downloaded to my personal computer to be able to analyze it. Um it has been written in Wisconsin State Journal. Oh, there were victim names. Oh, there was this, that, and the other. None of that is true. And that's why I say it's defamatory. how it arose was um the chief sent out a memo that speculated, oh, this could be the case, that could be the case, this other thing could be the case. And then the Wisconsin State Journal reporter then turned all that speculation into fact. Oh, this was the case. This was the case. This was the case. All of that it was blatantly false. The there were only three spreadsheets that I downloaded onto my computer to analyze. None of them had names. Um they the only identifying information in one of them was date of birth. Um in um well and two of them was date of birth and one of them had date of birth and license plate number. Um as I said none of them had names, none of them had you know other identifying information. I downloaded onto my computer after careful consultation with the former monitor. the foreign monitor was actually the public for for all the faults she may have had. She was actually the public records council for the Milwaukee Police Department with a very detailed understanding of confidentiality and risks around confidentiality etc etc. Um there was a decision made because I was basically misinformed that the software that was need that I

needed to use was not approved for use on city computers. I was given a list of all authorized programs. I I was told this was a comprehensive list. It was not a comprehensive list. Um, I was also told that freeware and what I needed to use was R, which is the statistical package that's probably the most widely used advanced statistical software in the world. I was told that freeware like that could not get authorized. Um, if I saw if I saw it, you know, it it wouldn't go through. It turns out I later learned that R actually had been grandfathered in and was authorized, but I given the information I was given by it, etc., there was no way I knew that. Um, I also add that I was actually the person in charge of cyber security for labs at the UW where I worked for years. So, I take cyber security very seriously. I use very careful cyber security practices. I will also add that there there's an irony here and a double standard because an alder who I will not name sent me an email and spreadsheet that they were emailed by the chief of police. That spreadsheet contained information that was more sensitive. It was juvenile criminal criminal justice restorative justice information with phone numbers. The email from the chief had no indication that it had to be kept confidential. Then the alder sent it to me.

Um so like I like there has been this incredible degree of scrutiny of OIPM PCO um in a way that is a complete double standard. Um yeah you know and I followed the rule. I talked with the head of my department. The head of my department who had very good awareness of confidentiality authorized the use. I was very careful with the data and with cyber security and now I'm getting slammed and there are defamatory things being said like you know I I was like I had victim names I had no victim names I know subject names so I'm I'm sorry I'm getting a bit heated but it is def defamation

so so given the opportunity to to ensure that this kind of a thing doesn't happen again especially when We know you know for example with this particular personal com city of Madison computer I use it for city of Madison business only. So when I think about data and how data is to be analyzed in someone's life or whatever could be at stake simply because the guard rails were not there in terms of ordinances, statutes, whatever. Would it be fair to ask that the use of data if there is a need to look at a program that analyzes data in a specific way that before doing that seeking and getting approval for it would be very very

well that's that's actually what I sought to do like I but but I'm talking about personal computer personal computer using doing you getting data and downloading it onto a personal computer. I'm talking about the use of a city computer. Can you restate your question because I'm not quite clear. Yeah. You you you said that you followed that, but then you also said that you used a personal computer. You said that the city that city of Milwaukee that the police whoever it was in Milwaukee said that this was it was okay to do this.

It was actually our prior monitor. It it wasn't the the prior monitor we had Robin CPPley previously worked for the Milwaukee Police Department as their public records council. um and had very acute awareness of confidentiality requirements um etc etc. Robin and I discussed the issue because it appeared that there was no way to properly statistically analyze the data on a city computer and at that point Robin authorized my doing so on my personal computer and other data that we got that that was confidential that didn't require analysis was never downloaded on my personal computer. So this was during this this happened during her employee.

Correct. Correct. Okay. And and once the chief brought up the concern, I deleted the files from my personal computer and at this point such files only exist on the city computer and we also like MPD gives us a lot of data on data keys. So basically the data is all on city computer or data keys or there there's an F drive that's attached you know so thank you. Yeah. Thank you Alder. Any other questions? Okay. Oh Alder.

Thank you mayor. Uh, Greg, getting back to your question about legitimate concerns and evoking what Linda Ketchin said about um, Alex Salutos's suggested wording. Did you get a chance to read his uh, attachment? A

I I did and I I think there's I think there's useful material very useful material there. Particularly the sentence with reference to the APMS. The sentence he suggests nothing in this subsection shall be construed to authorize the council or any city official to direct limit or interfere with the powers and duties of the monitor and the office of independent police monitor as set forth in MGO 5.19. Yeah, I I I saw exactly that. I I think that's useful. I Oh, you you wanted to

but it does address what you agree are legitimate concerns that a directive that the office of body

right like like I I think it's okay I don't because of the intricacies of this and and having to think through it I I would argue that it's best not done on the fly tonight but that you know some kind of body should be set up with PCB members alders if you know a And but that would be a useful starting point to begin with. You know, at least that's that's but that's my personal opinion. I'm not speaking for the monitor. I'm not speaking for the office. You know, that's just my personal opinion. Well, I I find that interesting because I I think the assumption is is that these efforts are all part of a grand conspiracy to do away with this office where it seems like adding a single sentence to the issue about APMS could bridge the misunderstanding and and kind of do away and address this sense that this is a an attempt to undercut Alder, can you speak into the mic, please, Alder?

Sorry. Or pick it up and take it with you. Yeah. Anyways, what I was trying to say is that um Thank you, mayor. I'm sorry about that. And sorry, colleagues. um that adding a single sentence could perhaps uh address the concerns of people who assume this is part of a grant conspiracy to do away with this office as opposed to what I see as good faith efforts to try to improve the functioning of the office. So adding that single sentence and perhaps additional sentences to these amendments uh would be helpful in your mind.

It it's okay. It's my personal opinion that there are ways to bridge the gap, but it requires very careful thought and it requires time. And my belief is that, you know, if you get into the weeds tonight and try to do that, you know, word smithing and all it it's not a good idea. Um, but do I think that there may be ways to bridge some of the gaps? Yeah, I do. that that's that's why I'm suggesting you know something like collaboration between um PCB members and alders. All right. Thank you.

Any other questions for Mr. Glmbiac? Sorry, Greg. Thanks, Greg. Um are you a.5 FTE? I'm a 6 FD. 6 FT. Okay. Um, have you ever worked more than 24 hours in a week? I didn't hear

that. That is complicated. Um, when I was first working, I was an hourly employee. Um, so and there was a full budget line for one FTE. So, you know, I I was working, you know, as much as needed. Um after that I um worked it it's complicated because there is work and but we can just leave it at it's complicated. What's that? We can just leave it at it's complicated. Okay. Thank you.

Yeah. Actually wait we can't have a cross talk. I'm sorry. Well actually no ma is right. the monitor will have a chance to answer questions if she wants if she gets asked them. But she but she's actually correct. Like at this point I am working overtime and it's approved by Mika. So I those hours are reflected in my time sheets. Thank you. Any final questions for Mr. Glen? I think we can let you sit down now. Thank you. Thank you. Oh and and the um the U is silent and it's glmbic. Gambic. My apologies. No, that's fine. Mangles. All right. Are there questions for other registrants? Alder Madison.

Thank you, mayor. Yes. Alder or questions for now former Alder Goajin or MDR? Uh do we if he's still available? Former Alder Gandin still? Yes. Go ahead, Alder. Uh thanks, mayor. I just wanted to quickly quickly ask if you could just talk about the leadup to the amendments. I know there's uh several conversations happening around collaboration. So, if you could just uh just discuss and brief your leadup like who you talk to when you talk to them. Uh I know you I've been at some of the committees that you've spoke at to for so for example. So, if you could just speak up speak to the leadup to the amendments.

Yes, thank you for that question. Um and I want to be very specific with the language here because there's the alternate, the substitute, the original, and then the amendments. When it comes to the quote the amendments, those are the three which are attached on legisar as PDF files. The conversations around that started um I want to say probably the week before slash the week of when the original version was introduced. Um and this was when I sent it out to all of the alders and the PCOB members along with the original legislative memo. Um the reason however uh they were again I can only speak to amendment one and two. Um I can't speak to Alder Meyer's amendment about adding an alder to the committee. Um the reason I wanted to add them as an attachment is because I wanted to have the PCO have the language in front of them um for discussion. So in theory the quote amendments have never been moved forward. there is never a motion so far to move an amendment forward. So I kind of that's why I put them as quote um amendment. Um but that's around the time that the conversations happened with uh Director Hilson um at HR and then also Chief Patterson at MPD. uh in terms of the specific uh language in terms of other conversations with those two specifically uh it started earlier last year I want to say in terms of general concerns um and interactions that they've had. I started having um conversations about the ordinance as a whole with uh staff and uh the independent monitor ma uh back in January. So it's been an ongoing process. Thank you.

Thanks. Thank you. Alder Alder Glenn questions. So to so to clarify, you started collaborating um with the PCO in January and the OIM with the O. Yes. Yes. um on the ordinance that you wrote up.

The ordinance was not written at that point. I I I hate to bring back this reference, but really it was concept of an ordinance at that point. Um the original email I had sent to the independent monitor, for example, is hey, welcome to your new role. I think there are some structural issues that I want to talk to you about soon as you're starting so you can um you kind of see them as you're getting used to this new role. and I want your feedback in um writing this ordinance which I intend to at least I want to introduce as soon as possible. Um that meeting happened I think January 8th, January 6th, something like that. Um but that was my initial email to the independent monitor at that time. Um I had reached out to other folks mostly by phone because I had their phone numbers.

Okay. And so when you met with them in January, you did us had the concept of the amendment. Sorry to keep using language.

I mean it gets the point across. Um I did at that point it was mostly just about the reporting structure. Um so for example my conversations was I want the I want the reports to come to council. Currently existing ordinance says that it is a report to the council and the mayor. However, we have not had that report come to the council just yet. Uh, this year, the PCOB passed the OIM ordinance without it having it attached to legisar and then the PCOB ordinance or sorry, the PCOB report was passed by the PCOB without it being sent to council. Um, so even in the current version of the ordinance, it has not been followed. So I wanted the at that time back in January, I wanted the ordinance to say specifically that it should be coming to council quote for its consideration which is in the substitute version. And then I also wanted additional details for what should be in additional reports. Um originally I wanted quarterly reports for both the OIM and the PCOB. After speaking to the independent monitor, she kind of told me like, whoa, the PCOB can't do quarterly reports. I mean they're a volunteer group. So I decided not to do that. Um, and then I also significantly scaled back what I wanted originally in the quarterly OIM report to essentially say that it should be uh what cases they're working on or kind of like the number of cases they're working on and whether it's closed, pending or ongoing, what recommendations if any recommendations they have made on these cases and what is the progress of the recommendations. Um, which I would in that moment and I continue to think that it could just be a chart or a template that is just an update to alders of current progress. Um, like I would not expect that to be dozens of pages.

And the concerns that you had were concerns prior to Aram Glass or current?

Absolutely. I I continue to believe that uh the independent monitor, Mika, is wonderful at her job. I think she is very capable. She has the qualifications. Um I don't think I've I don't think I've ever said anything negative about her. Um the concerns really did start structurally. It is having transparency between the PCOB and the OIM in terms of their reports and ensuring that they their administrative duties, the day-to-day employment, hiring, open records request, um those kind of things get sorted out with the city attorneys rather than duplicating existing services and adding financial strain to an already financially strained city budget um and putting that on independent council. So, yes. Um, and I know there there continues to be like open records request delays. I had one uh put in about five weeks ago and I only got a response after I followed up. Um, and it took about a month or so to get that response. Um, and I know there's been a couple other requests by other individuals which haven't been responded to yet.

Thank you. Thank you, Alder. Are there any other questions for former Alder Gender Rajin? Thank you, Alder Harrington McKenna.

Thank you very much. Um, I I'm having a difficult time linking this up and so my question is simply this. At the creation of this ordinance that you um ordinance change that you uh presented, was there a discussion with the um who did that who did you have that discussion with prior to the amendment that's before us in terms of the language? Uh well changes the the changes the language creation

who did you have a conversation with

um that's a long list. Um so from the original to the substitutes what I'm guessing you're talking about and the people I've spoke to there is I mean the PCOB they had two substantive meetings where the discussion lasted between 5 to 6 hours on the ordinance. Um after that I um I believe I spoke to the former chair Shadira at um a non city event at one point. I spoke to Helen from the PCOB um over the phone. Several alders including Alder Glenn Janette Fero Cole um Sabrina Madison um much more who were also very involved. city staff. Um, attorney Hos obviously helped me write the um, ordinance because I, as much as I love to say that I want to be a lawyer, I'm not there yet. Um, and he knows how to write the law better than me. Um, so he helped me do that. Um, worked with Director Hilson um, at HR JP um, or Chief Patterson. Um, there is some communication with Sarah Edertton at IT. Those are just the ones off the top of my head, but it was a very extensive process with a lot of discussion going on.

Okay. Thank you very much for clarifying that because what I heard was is that this was put and correct me if I'm I'm wrong is is that this was put together without any collaboration or consulting with the um um with that committee. and you listed a series of processes that you did have those conversations with. So, I'm getting I'm still not clear on um who received what when.

Yeah, that totally sense. And I would kind of refute that statement that there hasn't been collaboration with the PCO. If I had wanted to not include the PCO, I would or could have introduced this under rules of suspension where we vote on it the day that it's introduced to council. that way I would have still been able to vote on it. Um, but the independent monitor has had asked me back in January to wait until her annual report came out for me to introduce this ordinance and I agreed to do so. So, I waited till March 15th. Um, and then I also continued to have conversations throughout to ensure like the PCOB conversations. I wanted to make sure that they had a chance to have at least one meeting. Thankfully, they had two meetings. They scheduled it. um their executive subcommittee as well to talk about this. And then I had follow-up conversations with at least those two PCOB members um and including Chair Pearson before the first PCOB member uh meeting happened. So at least three PCOB members I spoke to. Um yeah, so I want to be clear, I really do refute the argument that there was no collaboration. That just is not true.

Thank you, Alder. Are there any other questions for former alder given to Russian? Seeing none, thank you MGR. Thank you. Are there any other questions for other registrants? Alder Jang.

Hello. Um I would like to ask Hope a question if you could if you're willing. Go ahead. Um, so in your speech you talked about working with um, women of color, like victims of gender- based violence. And I just wanted to ask how um, the OIM maybe has a more direct connection to your work or what kinds of positive impacts are like positive associations you have with the OIM. Yeah, you know, when I was talking about that's really just like my background, the the work that I do, right? Um, and so whenever I come share or testify, right? Um, it's really around like this is where I come from. This is my background. And when I whatever work that I'm in, I really do truly center the voices and like the experiences of um women, girls, and gender expansive people who are experiencing gender- based violence. Um, when I am making the connection between them and building trust within the OIPM, I'm talking about the ways that victims of gender- based violence are rarely believed, right? Um, when it comes to harm being done to them. And um, I'm saying that a lot of times victims actually don't go to the police and they don't report the harm that's been done to them. And um the reason why it need the OIPM actually needs to be independent is because if they are associated with a system that has a history of not believing them and not actually um doing justice to them or for them um they're not actually going to go to the OIPM when there are real

concerns of harm being done to them by the police. Does that help answer the question? Yes. Okay. Are there are there any other questions for hope? I think I might be the problem.

All right. Are there any other questions for any other registrants? Alder Madison. Uh thank you, mayor. for former Alder uh Kimell and I will come back to you and bring you the microphone if necessary. I'm coming.

Start asking. I'll get there.

Oh, perfect. Take I'm I'm gonna take my time. So, and I won't say the former alder because sometimes, you know, these things end up and you end up with a bunch of back and forth. But I had a conversation with a former alder back from, you know, when you all were running things. And um I specifically asked about the independence um you know, how the original ordinance was set up. And I specifically was really focused on some of the administrative things and that former alder noted that the original ordinance was not written to be um independent, which I believe it's it laid out, but it's not to be independent of some of the administrative, you know, like the APMs rather. So I guess I just want to clarify and maybe I missed it when you were talking but when you all worked on the the original ordinance was it written in a way where um this office for example didn't have to work with HR IT the city attorney's office whatever you know how do you how did you envision if there are challenges for example maybe inner work I don't know interpersonal work conflicts who would handle that if it's independent of all other city agencies I guess

okay so if you read the ordinance Yeah, there is a role for HR and that is that the independent police monitor will work with HR to hire staff. Yep. And and by the way, this ordinance has never been fulfilled. We said that the minimum staffing of this office is one full-time monitor, one full-time data analyst, one full-time admin person, and that's minimum. and we envisioned um the hiring of investigators and other staff in the future. So, by the way, it has never been fully staffed. So, it says in the ordinance that the the monitor will work with HR to hire

yep their staff. The only mention of the city attorney and this was deliberate was the city attorney and MPD staff are to attend PCO meetings. So, this was 5.20. 20. Mhm.

To ask to to a answer any questions should they arise. So their role in the PCOB is not to direct the PCOB is not to orient the PACOB is not to to be active in the PACOB meetings. It is very specifically to just answer questions as the PCOB um asks those questions. Everywhere else we very specifically said the uh the mechanism has to follow all applicable state laws as far as um open records all of the other things and that we very specifically said the OIM is um is uh is authorized to hire outside counsel to further the work of the OIM. Period. Internal external. They can use an ex uh external council. We did this and we put the clause the independence clause the political independence clause in there because in the years of developing this, we had received um erroneous legal opinions from the Madison city attorney. Um, we had to go to Wisconsin legislative council to get proper and correct legal opinions on state law as it pertained to especially um giving these body subpoena powers which our city attorney strenuously objected to. They did not want to write that in, but we knew that that would be that subpoena power was the foundation for any actual monitoring um that that could be done because otherwise the police would just

hide, right? So, we c we specifically curtailed the role of the city attorney and open the door for external counsel

in how we wrote that. We also knew that political um that political independence clause. We wrote that because we knew the power of the administration through APMS through the depart the various departments of the city. Um what much as the uh the um independent monitor glass has written in her memo, those are the ways in which independence is lost is if the um critical functions of the job have to be approved through city departments. that is an avenue for political power through the bureaucracy to be um to be used to block the independence and and the straightup work. Okay. So for example, delaying this issue of the this issue of the um computers and the software. I mean could have been delayed for years and has been. I mean I know I mean the going through the city bureaucracy is ownorous and I'm not saying that the people in those jobs are doing it intentionally deliberately to actually you know harm the work of whatever but I'm saying the effect of it is right if it's not the intention it's the impact. Yep. And can I just can I just I just want to clarify so I can write make sure I write my note correctly and not incorrectly. So, just to clarify, the other former alder said that they did not write the ordinance with the intention to be um independent from the APMS, but you're saying I just want to clarify and I want to make sure, you know, make sure I'm hearing you correctly. Yes. Are you saying you wrote it you your your version of it or your understanding of it, it is to be independent of the APMS?

Yes, it is. and that former alder may have been the same one who agreed with the mayor back in March of that year that it should all be under the mayor's control. But I'll say the one that did not happen in our conversation. Okay, that person didn't say that. So I don't want to cuz again that's the reason I didn't want to say the former alder because I don't want to do all of I just wanted to be clear on your understanding and I only shared the one thing that I had with that conversation. Well, I'm saying my understanding, their understanding, whatever. Read what's written. Yeah. Because that is publicly what was passed. That is what the community supported. The actual words gota in the ordinance and the actual words in the ordinance it is the intent of the ordinance.

Yep. I hear you. Yeah. Thank you. So that Yeah. So that there it's very plain language. It's very clear. Yep. Nope. I just want to make sure since we had a former auditor here from that time. Thank you. Are there any other questions for former Alder Cumble? Alder Glenn, what did unfettered access mean to you?

It meant they could access anything. Unfettered means unfettered, no blocks, no obstacles. That was the national standard in this in this um I'm sorry my mind the pain meds man they're intense um it means what it says unfettered no that that industry standard that's what I'm talking about that is industry standard in this line of um of work nationwide unfettered means No obstacles, like

no obstacles.

And we debated it. We debated it for over several sessions. And again, the city attorney was against us using that word. um they advised something else, but we we we knew that if we wanted to stop happening what was happening, which was people calling the police for help for someone who was in distress and that person ending up dead, but at the hands of the police, we needed something very, very strong. We needed to be able to have access. We needed our independent monitor be to be able to have access to all that because listen, not only what Linda said about the chief of police telling us that we were under surveillance and that was his uh preemptive first strike against us that we better not authorize $400,000 for the OIR report way back in the day. Later, uh, just a couple months later was when M. Michael Schumacher was in distress in the lake carrying a rake and he ended up dead. And that night, Chief Koval said the officer was compelled to shoot him. And I the next council meeting, I asked Chief Koval, "We live in a state with no death penalties. Are you saying that we as a city we're compelling our workers to kill? But is that really what we're do you or do you actually like have that kind of impunity? And I could not sleep for months. He couldn't answer my question. But you know who did the head of the police union wrote me an email. He came to my door that very night. He said he didn't mean that. Let me let

me explain it to you. I'm on the beat in your neighborhood. Um, I can explain it to you. And I was so upset. I said, "Okay." He came to my house and before crossing my threshold, he gave me the list of all the police calls to to my mom's house next door to my house. So, they were watching us. And then he went and told me when I asked him, couldn't that officer have created distance? Um, you know, the guy just had a leaf rake. He said, "Yeah, he could have, but we're not trained to scream and run away like little girls. Firearms training is more efficient. We don't do handtohand training. Firearms training is more efficient." Okay, so this is what we're dealing with. This now, this is the mindset of the internal culture of the head. This is the head of the police union telling me this. We had to get that under control. We had to get the community aware of what was happening. We had to get that being monitored. This is no joke, y'all. You You were there. Several of you were there. You You know, you lived through it. We have to have this transparency for the community.

And that's why questions. Two more questions. And um uh I spoke to a pretty good friend of mine who used to who is an attorney and is is atoning as he says uh for his version of how he was an attorney and does a lot around um ministry and restorative justice. And when we talked about this, the very first thing he brought up when we were reading through it and he was helping me was that office is set up like an inspector general. Yep.

And I was like, that's so crazy cuz that is in an annual report. And um and one of the things that uh an inspector general has is independent independence outside of labor laws. Like Department of Labor will spank it, right? Um but other than that, there's uh 100% unfettered um independence. Do you think that this office should be set up like a inspector general? Well, I I don't know specifically legally. Yeah, I'm not going to speak to that. Okay. But this office should have independence

should um be independent from political pressure from either the mayor's mayor's office, the administration or the council um but should be subject to um to state labor law. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Did you leave this uh uh ordinance unfinished? I keep hearing the word unfinished. It was left where the can was kicked down the road or something. wasn't kicked down the road, but we here's what we did. We said we we knew that once the PCO had um had um formed itself and got established that they themselves would want to make changes. So we did anticipate that there would be changes in the future. Um, but we anticipated them coming from the experience of those members of the PCOB going, "Oh, we need procedures for this. We need rules for that. We need, you know, we need to change the ordinance in order for us to more um faithfully um and specifically fulfill the mission of of the intent of this ordinance. So, we did see um there there being room for for changes. The one thing I I really truly regret I truly regret allowing the city attorney and our own chief of staff from blocking me and my other co-authors from attending those early meetings. I wish we had forced ourselves in to to at least have um because we had we had the intent. We had the collective intent and we really should have been able to orient the PCO and and and we were not allowed to do that. Um, so they floundered for for a long time. Um, but yes, we did we did see and we hope they will. Um, I mean, I think they we've heard they have some ideas of of what they want to do.

We have. Thank you.

And I hope the and I'm so glad you all are taking interest in them again because for a lot of years it was just maybe one or two alders checking in now and then. Um but it's it is such a precious part of of what we have what this body the council as a whole did for this city was to create this and we created it within the tensions of the administration like yes there are really there are conf there are tensions and conflicts there. There are conflicts with, you know, the city attorney defending the police department, you know, and, you know, $12.3 million of civilian payouts for a lot of those police killings and our permanent permanent increase in um insurance premiums. Like there is a cost to that and this mechanism can bring that down. And it it it's I believe I don't know you can't prove a negative but that very existence of subpoena power I think has caused a change in behavior even if there wasn't a fully functioning PCOB or or IM and I think just the knowing that they can be scrutinized to that level has has affected um a positive change and what more can be done with a good relationship between our IM and our chief like what more could be done but they have to have the independence you know like the chief a truly reform-minded chief I would imagine would love to have the support of like it's not him saying it it's the it's the community demanding it right like to have that support from the community to make the reforms you know to to to make it a more safe community for everyone

thank you Alder Kembbo former Appreciate it. Go enjoy your sitting if everyone else is. Are there any other questions for from Alder Camp or can we let her sit down? Thank you, Rebecca. Heal well. Yeah. All right. Are there any questions for anyone else? Alder Matthews.

Um I have a couple questions for Maya Pearson if that's okay. This is like the worst seat, you know, but also the best seat. There you go.

So, um I was wondering I have I guess two questions, I think. Uh for the first question, if you could um give your perspective of those PCOB meetings, how that out, you know, how that went, the the ones we've had where there were discussions. Um and then my other question is what outreach what you think as the chair outreach should look like? If that's what outreach looks like like what you would want outreach to look like between council and Okay. and the uh board.

Okay. And do you mean the perspective of um my perspective based off of the meetings for our executive meeting that everyone came to and the subsequent meeting for the process and procedure? Um I think just the whole like the whole outreach from when you found out about the amendments through

Yeah, absolutely. Um so I would say my perspective is that I was really shocked. Um I think there's a misconception that the independent monitor and I do not talk often um or some of these things were not um I guess discussed with me or relayed to me based off her perspective. Um that is not true. Like we talk pretty often and she gives me her perspectives based off of conversations that she's had with pretty much many of you. Um and so I do remember um a conversation earlier that there was a possibility that people may be looking at our ordinance. Um and that um what was relayed was hey like let us work let us get the annual report out. Maybe that may change for people. Um and so I did not um put any weight to that if that makes sense because it it felt as though it was like hey yeah let you do what you need to do and let's discuss it later based off of what we see and you know the work that is being done. So, um we were actually finishing the pol like polishing of our annual report. um Helen and I and um that's when we got the first message from Ch's ordinance and then we were like oh there's an ordinance um change and then it was like wait just a second here's another one that's coming in and we were like wait what and then there's another one wait what and so there were multiple iterations of ordinance changes that honestly were very surprising that came out of the blue as we were finishing our annual report um and putting on the finishing touches. So, um I would say that and that was just recently um before the meeting, I did

have a conversation um with former Alder MGR about um about his thoughts of why this was coming out um at the time. And I did ask him to provide that information in writing because it was somewhat vague as to like exactly what he was referring to about talking to some of the department heads and and whatnot. and I gave um you know response back of what I had understood about every situation. Um so the perspective was that I was very surprised that they were coming through. Secondly, I was um somewhat um lack of better term pissed off that there was not um prior conversations um with me or even members of the board as to like hey these things are happening. what kind of like support is needed for you all or um what conversations need to be had maybe for you guys to have stronger ordinance or however it's being categorized right now as trying to support us. Um there was not a collaboration at first at least for the PCOB. Um and honestly I didn't know that when we first got um the first draft of the ordinance um that it was considered a draft. And actually, I spoke um with an alder about just the process because I was unaware that technically your guys's drafts aren't actual they're not necessarily put on the agenda yet. It's just kind of like an area where you guys can do some of the work around the whatever you need to do around the ordinances. Um and so that was something that I was unaware of. Um, and so in talking with some of the members, we went ahead and put it um, so we had uh, our we put it on I think it was the March 25th meeting. Yeah, the March 25th meeting where we

excitedly talked about our annual report and all the things that were in there that was definitely sent to folks because people read it. um and we accepted it and um then we had the first kind of conversation around that change and I think that span of time was within a week. Um and so um folks and I did explain to um some city folks as well as some alders that um the members would not be happy. Um they take a lot of pride in the work that they do. um they take a lot of pride um in showing up many hours um in donating their time to to the cause that they believe in. So um I did express that folks would not be happy um with having this come forth without some kind of conversation. Um and that's exactly kind of what happened in our 25th meeting. most of you guys were there. Um, and even though we had placed it on file, um, you know, talking with some of the members, we brought it back to our exec meeting to at least have an initial conversation. Um, because the way that it was, um, kind of presented was that honestly, you all can do whatever you want with the ordinance because that is your your, um, legislative duties as alders. Um, and it felt like at that point it didn't matter what we were going to say that you could have, to Alder MDR's point earlier, just went ahead and put it on um for a vote. Um, and so, you know, we put it on the um the agenda to have that conversation. and you all came um out to that meeting, heard what some folks had, and then um Stephanie, who is the chair for the um external policy and procedure, put it on her subcommittee um to have another conversation um at least to get some kind of input from members. But um it definitely as

much as it wants as folks want to say that it was collaborative in nature, I I beg to differ. Um I think it was a force collaboration because we had no options left for us to be able to ensure that we could protect the work that we do. Um given the fact that you all with your legislative powers um can pretty much do what you choose to do. So I will that is how I would respond to that. Um, you did ask about outreach and what I think um, like the relationship between council and PCO. Um, I think what I'll start is how I conceptualize um, our role for PCOB. Um, I mean, I'm the mayor's um, nominee and appointee. Before I was the appointee from um, urban triage. um and I agreed to put in another four years um to help really build the foundation that is needed for for us to do our work well. Um I think we have done a lot of amazing work um and we're just getting started in that um more holistically I think um kind of working off of what has already been done. But I I start out with that to say that um I see the work as being accountable to the public. Um and I feel that the charge for us is truly rooted in the community. Um as many of us represent the community. Um, and the relationship for me between us and the council is that although you all are the body that approves our budget, you know, can change the ordinance and whatnot and technically we're an entity of um the

city. Um, I see the work more so rooted not with council um rooted with um the community. So being um accountable to them um and how I kind of conceptualize with some of these um these changes is that us being then accountable to you as the the the body um that we're entity of um of in terms of the city um and I think it is in direct like conflict of what the essence of who we are um and the essence of what um as former Alder Kembell mentioned was the the charge. Um and so what does that look like in terms of outreach and um I guess collaboration? Um, I'm not exactly sure right now because it doesn't I don't really have a a um a positive um relationship with um as a person who collaborates a lot um relationship right now as it relates to PCOB work with the council. Um, but I'm open to know what that may look like if you all are truly willing to come to the table of like um true collaboration um and understanding and um I guess really considering the fact that um there are some structural things that we need like more monies and I understand that you all are like hey we'll give us things we give you money um but that's very transaction um in nature. So I don't Yeah, I'm not really subscribing to that. Um but I think with you know I'm open to having a conversation um and I think I've I've

tal I've spoken to many of you for many hours um of a day that already is very busy for me. So um I'm not exactly sure right now how to answer that question. Long story short,

thank you. Um, that makes sense. I mean, I know you represent a whole or you're the lead of an entire board. Um, I just have one more question that I do think is relevant to just the timing and everything. um if you could briefly speak to just kind of the current work like like what is the timing of right now look like for the board and the last three weeks and all of that. I'm actually really excited to answer that because we started our um our strategic planning yesterday. Um and we are creating a three-year plan that is really rooted in the work that each of our subcommittees do. Um and how it relates how the how the how the work relates to each other. um and then also how the work relates with the independent monitor who is also there um in our planning session. And then tomorrow um we will be meeting again in person for a 4hour session to really start diving deep into what we um are planning and then actually putting dates and things like that. And once that has been finalized and we're working with Mosaic, with ABBA um to help us craft that, which you all have worked with and we have as well um to craft that and we will then present that to the public um of what our priorities are moving forward for the next 3 years. So the work is getting done. We are trying our best um again we are all volunteers. Um many of us are parents. Many of us do not hold official titles. many of us um work 40 hours like many of you um in other jobs and I think um I think we're doing our best to do the like do the work of the charge that we were given. Um so what I can say is that's that's what we're doing right now. So if you want specifics, we'll definitely give specifics later.

Um thank you Maya. And I just want to mention too from what I heard from the previous couple meetings is that the last month or so you've also as you mentioned you you finalized your report um and that you're also working on the the process for the evaluation for the chief.

Yes. So that is part of that is part of the work that we're also working on. um we have already um kind of completed the chief rubric, but now we're putting it back into um hopefully scheduling meetings with um MPD just and maybe the chief to have a discussion of like what he you know if he has any input um on the rubric and thoughts of maybe how he would like to engage with this um and then also bring it back to the exact committee and then hopefully to the full board. So that is something that we're working on. Um as well as I know that the police chief is looking to um do a new strategic plan for MPD um as we are nearing the end of the previous um strategic plan. So our hope is that we will um in some ways where appropriate be working in collaboration with that as we've reviewed the 5-year strategic plan previously and the um recommendations from the OIR report um previously as well. So we have done some of that work already but with some of the changes we are looking to do that work as well.

Thank you so much. That is all that I had for Thank you Alder Alder Field.

Thank you for joining us tonight. Chair Pearson. Um one of the central questions before the council tonight is the extent to which administrative uh APM's uh city policies have to be followed by the office. One of those policies that I think the alders are going to be more familiar with is 3-5 because we have formal training on it. That policy is our prohibited harassment andor discrimination policy. So, one of the questions that I'm sitting with when I'm considering how we grapple with this question of the OIM and fitting it into city policy is are there is it your vision that there would be alternative policies to some of these administrative in nature city policies at the OIM level or whether these it is appropriate for these policies that apply to city staff across across the board to also apply to OIM staff and I'm referring specifically to administrative ones in nature that are not related to the substance of investigations or the findings from investigations.

Um so I won't speak on behalf of the board because we haven't had that specific conversation. Um I try my best to read through your APMS as I'm not trained in them um as a community member. Um however I did try to get through as many as I could. Um and in terms of like so the question is do I believe like the the office and the board should be um to adhere to the one the administrative pieces if it doesn't impede on to um some of the investig investigatory work. Um, I do think that there are basic, you know, like policies that I think we all agree upon. Like we want people to have the like the their rights as a worker, right? Like Wisconsin, we birthed a lot of that, right? Um, I think people really do value making sure that there is no like discrimination and um, we want to make sure that people are paid for their time and that they receive time off and those kind of things. and some of the HR APMs that I read um and some of the administrative ones. And so I think that there are there are basic foundational that I think everyone can agree on. My only concern with saying all APMs is that say, you know, our our our great mayor decides that she's gonna retire and someone else is going to come in and they're going to add um some APMS that may um you know, be in opposition to some of the work that we do. Um and maybe we have a council who's not willing to change, you know, the ordinance or something like that, right? Like so when I think about scenarios like that, it kind of leaves

us open um to to um possible issues um down the road. And I think um if there is a instance where um there may be um conflicts between um some of the work that is being done and maybe interpretations of those APMS um there's a possibility that that might occur um where there might be some conflicts and so by saying like all there may be some issues around that but I do think there are some foundational ones that I think we all can agree upon and you you know, I think we may be open to that. Um, if there are things that um I think we would need to add or um create, co-create maybe, um, I'm open to that, too. But I what I do want to mention is that I don't see anywhere where the PFC is required to follow all APMS. I don't they in their ordinance, it only says that they have to follow the state law. Um and in the state law it doesn't actually reference any kind of administrative for their m municipalities. So that's interesting to me that um we're focusing on us and also a mechanism or kind of like a comparable comparable um board or commission does not have the same requirements um or level of scrutiny around that. Um so I'm just saying that's just from what I'm reading. So yeah,

OAM staff members are city employees though as opposed to PFC members. Correct. Pardon? OM staff are city employees though as opposed to PFC committee members. So yes, the Oh, the um O yeah, the OIM are city staff. But I do think that there are some folks that are assigned to BFC from my understanding. Um but I could be wrong for that. Not for city staff. Okay. Yeah. Mhm. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Alder. Alder Pritchette, questions. Yes, I have a couple of questions and we've heard the words uh your mic.

Alder, can you speak into the mic? Thank you. We've heard we've heard the word um independent. We've heard the word unfettered. So now we have agencies. We have the PCOB, we have the OIM, we have the police department,

we have the city of Madison. Okay, the legislative branch. And the term that's being floated around is independence, independence, independence. Now, are we talking about independence with respect to structure or are we talking about independence with respect to work that you're doing? Because now if we're asking for independence, how do we square not communicating with the very very agencies that you are working to problems to solve. This this is this is critical. Because independence now implies one thing, but then if you're going to say you're in a silo and you're independent, at what point in time do you intersect with the other agencies? So, okay. So what you're asking is um are we in is it my opinion that we are independent in structure or are we independent in the work? Is that what you're asking me?

Right. Because now they go hand in hand. I think you answered your question. I do think that we're independent in in both. In both. Mhm. Yeah. I'm asking the question. No, I I you said that they're handinand and I'm agreeing with you. They are hand in hand. They go hand in hand. So, so when when does the bulb go on? When does a signal go on that I need to talk to? When does a signal go on here that says I need to talk to this agency? That's important.

So, I think we just you mentioned earlier that you were going through your your strategic plan. Now, when do you communicate with these other silos or is there a need to do that? or is it independent? Do you mean that communicate with the silo of OIM, MPD in the city or just every other department? Yeah, any of those departments.

So, I do think that um we work with HR, we're working with HR now to hire the next independent monitor to permanent one. um you know I know that the independent monitor um class has worked with um it she's worked with um like many of the departments and so I guess I'm not really understanding what what your question is because I we do work with the city departments um when necessary but you say you're independent okay so I guess I'm not really understanding what you're trying to what you're trying to say independent dependent,

you know, and if you if you really follow what independent is, okay, the definition of independent, but yet and still you're saying you feel you have to work with these other departments.

So, I mean, that's why I ask you about structure and work. Alder Bridget, I I can definitely say like um in my career um in my own expertise, I can find someone to do HR work for us if I wanted. Um you know, if we wanted if to your point, if we really wanted to truly be independent per what you say, I mean, we could, right? Um but again we still even though we the independence is there by nature of our ordinance um and we take that very seriously um we also still understand we're entity of the city and so um we have been told that we should work with the city agencies to the extent of the work that is necessary.

So maybe the word shouldn't be independent it should be interdependent. Would that be a fair statement? I I would bite to defer. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Alder Alder Madison. Thanks, Mayor. Just two quick questions cuz I know you like them. I feel like I um the first one just so I can know if I need to um actually access of uh independent monitor glass who So when um Greg So I met I had a recent meeting with Greg and Chel and I I believe Greg went from full-time to part-time. I can remember the exact month,

but they said nothing changed when, you know, he went from full-time to part-time. So, I guess my question to you is who will work on the work plan? Like, will his task be adjusted? Because right now they're saying nothing has changed, but when you go to full-time to part-time, like you're doing full-time task in the part-time row, but is there a plan or work plan to adjust that until, you know, if there's a budget increase, for example, it would go back? I mean, I I would defer to the independent monitor as she oversees that, but I will say for budgetary reasons, I do think um you know, of course, we would want a full-time person in all those positions.

I'll ask you staff questions. Then my second quick question is, and I won't cuz I I hate saying who said what because gets all blaming folks, but um in talking to community members, including PCOB members, there was a question about um communication. So I just want to understand what is the process like if there's a concern shared from any city agency like let's just say let's just use it. No let's just use a random agency like parks. Let's use parks. So if there was a concern from parks and the concern was brought to you as the chair

does the chair automatically share those with is it the executive committee that might get the ch the issue or is it the full PCL? because in some of those conversations I was having folks you know someone you know they they didn't feel like they had that information and so I was curious without trying to blame why they didn't get the information how does the communication channel work or the communication loop work

yeah so the communication works is that if there is a concern that is brought to me I typically will reach out to depending on the the level of what is being bought so if it's something very egregious where we need to as a full board take action action, then I'm reaching out to the full board, letting them know that maybe we need to do like an emergency meeting. Um, we need to talk about some things. Um, if it's a matter of that doesn't require that level of um involvement for the full board, um, but needs immediate action, um, we convene the um, the exec committee. Um, typically I try really hard to contact every um, board member if there is something that is really important for them to know to let them know that something has occurred um, and just to inform them and I do that rounds and I make all the calls um, to every individual member um, if necessary. Um I think the thing is is that there have been some members who you know are not on subcommittees or um on exec committees and such and so they come to the regular board meetings or they engage with the work in other ways um that may not be aware to some some things that may be pressing or coming through very fast if that makes sense.

Gotcha. And then one very last quick one for the proced I think it's the procedural man manual that's still in process right? Okay. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Alder. Alder Glenn Maya, just one question. Has uh um independent monitor glass ever restricted you from having conversations with people? No. Thank you. No. Thank you, Alder. Any other questions for Miss Pearson? for chair Pearson. Excuse me. Okay, I think we can let you sit down. Thank you.

Okay, I'm still here if you need me. Any other questions for any other registrants? Alder Vidiver. I apologize, but I'm going to ask former Alder Gavinder Rajin to come back with one question. Oh, do we still have Alder Gavinder Rajin online? Looks like it. Yep. Uh, Alder Gerajin, um, can you talk about, um, what your intention was when you were putting together the amendments in terms of, uh, speaking to that piece of independence?

Yes. So, thank you for that question. Um, so my goal was to never interfere with the independence in terms of their investigation and their core mission. and what I consider to be their core mission was already in um ordinance, current ordinance, and that's investigations, findings, policy recommendations, subpoena power, stuff like that. So, for example, their subpoena power is untouched. Their political independence clause is untouched. Um like none of that is touched. It so the way I kind of think of it is the OIM is not a quasi government entity. I think a lot of the discussion regards what regarding the public discussion of what independence is has been what they want the OIM to be and they a lot of people want the OIM to be a quasi government entity. Um we have those in the city uh like the overure center or the business improvement district the bid board. Um I used to be an ex official member on the bid board. Uh they get partial city funding and they but honestly they're operated mostly via a private entity. The OIM when it was created, it was not created as a quasi government entity. That could have been an option. Um, it was never just put it under the mayor or don't put it under the mayor. It was also we want to create it as a separate quasi government entity where they get some funding, but they are not applicable to APMS similar to the bid board or the overure center. Uh, but they are still applicable like they still have to follow state law like when the bid board meets they have to publicly notice their meetings. Um, so that's kind of how I'm thinking about independence here. So, for example, there was this discussion about APMs, and the way I look at it is APMs are much less powerful than ordinance. The ordinance states currently that no official can use their political role to influence investigations. Um, so in a hypothetical scenario, if this mayor or

a future mayor was to write an APM that was intended to impact investigations, that APM itself would be a violation of the IND uh of the political interference ordinance. So it wouldn't be enforceable. And hypothetically, let's say there's an argument that city staff are making. Oh, you should follow this APM and the OIM is saying, "No, I don't have to follow this APM." At the end of the day, it is still the PCO who is uniquely charged to holding the OIM in compliance. If the independent monitor is breaking a rule, then the council could choose to step in, but there's no automatic way for us to enforce compliance. If a staff member under the the independent monitor is breaking some rule or um breaking some other APM, the council cannot just fire that person, you know. Um so even in this hypothetical scenario that an APM might in um impact investigations, that decision gets made by the PCOB. So I actually see that as a protection in terms of their independence. Um and the proposed language in the substitute also specifically says that the OIM maintains independence in carrying out its core missions like investigation duties. Um there is also this earlier discussion that um this that the substitute does impact their independence. Um, but I still really haven't seen a specific citation to the language on what the language like which part of the language impacts which part of um, independence. And actually, Alder Madison kind of got to this question earlier when she asked the data analyst to describe quote specific legitimate concerns. And his response was he didn't want to get into the details and he kind of dodged the question. So if there are legitimate concerns about investigations being impacted and the independence of investigations being in impacted, I asked the PCOB during their two meetings to tell us that so it could be addressed

in the substitute. In the last 5 weeks of this discussion, I still haven't heard any specifics over there. um other than potentially the um computer databases portion of things, but from my understanding with the computer databases, it basically says that OIM staff cannot walk into MPD offices and access like log into a computer themselves. However, they can still get the data that is on the computer as long as that data can be shared under whatever state laws exist. Um so that is still how things function currently. it does not impact their in um independence over there. So I think a lot of this this discussion has been around the word independence, what people want the OIM to be in uh versus what it is set up to be. Um and they're still accountable to the council obviously and that kind of came up with the reports when um reports portion of this um because the independence of the reports are not changed. It's just what is in the report. Um, I understand Chair Pearson just said that the PCOB they believe that they're more accountable to the community, which they obviously are, but as per the ordinance, they're accountable to the community, the public, and the common council. So, and alers know this one fact. If something is on a council agenda, it gets much more attention. Um, that's why I mentioned earlier that the PCOB is still non-compliant with the ordinance when they haven't submitted the reports because yes, we as Alders got it emailed to us, I think, um, and it's on the PCOB website, but if it's not on the council agenda, it is not compliant with um, ordinance and council doesn't have the opportunity to take an official vote and hear from constituents on fair critiques or criticisms or feedback

and sometimes poss positive feedback on what these reports uh entail. So that's hopefully answering your questions of independence. I know that was longer than I intended.

Thank you. Alder Vidiver, Aler Glenn, questions. Um, I keep hearing this word being called out and I uh just have a few questions around it and around another word. I keep hearing the word like collaboration, collaboration, collaboration. And it's a really hard word and it's a really hard thing to do. And the reason it's a really hard thing to do for us is we hold power. And when you hold power, you're not an equal to the person that you're going talking to, especially when you control their budget. And so collaboration takes speed of trust. And speed of trust is slow. And I just keep hearing these very short timelines of 5 weeks, 2 weeks, 3 weeks. And so when you talk about that we can't enforce or we can't do anything. What is an ordinance amendment? We can't take we can't tell them or get them in trouble if they don't do something, but we can sure write an ordinance about it. Correct.

Is that still a question for me? Yes.

Okay. From my understanding, uh we could always write an ordinance. That's something just alders can always do. But I have seen in other circumstances where the council will direct any committee to take a specific action. So for example, I think every 5 years the council directs the sustainability committee to lead the city of Madison sustainability plan. um and we get a report from the sustainable Madison committee on that sustainability plan that they do whether it's every year or every five years I can't remember I was a member of that committee so that is a resolution that we are directing them to do something so potentially in a hypothetical scenario even now um even without any of these ordinance changes the council could direct the PCOB to take any action and that would in my understanding be um a valid thing that we could do legally again attorney hos feel free to correct me at any point, I suppose. But um so it's beyond just ordinances. The reason I chose to address these issues through uh through an ordinance is because it wasn't oneoff issues here and there. I saw consistent patterns that indicated there was a structural issue that needed to be addressed. And that structural issue in my perspective is there is a core belief that the um OIM and the PCOB believe that they were created to be a like operate as a quasi government entity when they were never supposed to do so. Um they were created as part of the city an entity of the city unlike the bid board and the overture center or whatever as I mentioned earlier. So in collaboration, yes, I know 5 weeks is not much, you know, um but also it's a lot more than most other committees get. Um if I had introduced this ordinance back in February, as I had wanted to, the PCOB still would have um met on March 25th and we still would have heard it today because the PCOB meets four times this year. Um would they have had additional time to review it? Yes. Um,

however, I was aware of the short amount of time, which is why I specifically asked for attorney Hos to write his age eight page page memo. Um, and then I also wrote a memo as well that broke down the ordinance pretty much sentence by sentence explaining my int intent and the impact. When alders introduce ordinance, for the most part, there is not a legislative memo that goes along with it. It doesn't break down the impacts. It doesn't do things like that. And this both the original and the substitute have two three very extensive memos u from me and city attorney hos and the items on legar like that amount of supporting documents. It's not common. So I understood that it was a crunch timeline for collaboration but I wanted to make it as easy as possible for the PCOB during their two meetings to discuss this which is why we tried to get them out as soon as possible before the meeting. the my legislative memo showed up six days ahead of time. Attorney Hos needed to talk to staff and me and understand my intent and he got it out the day before. Um and then the amendments were kind of things that kind of the again amendment one and two kind of just happened and we weren't planning on it. So maybe Attorney Hos's memo could have come a couple days earlier, but those amendments slowed it down and it definitely did impact collaboration, which is unfortunate, but um it it was always supposed to be like here's the first draft version, please give me your feedback, which is also what I've done with the previous ordinances I've introduced, like the alder vacancy ordinance that went through a lot of change at the common council executive committee, for example.

Thank you. I just want to make it clear and on record that um we Oh, is it a question? Although, it's a question. Okay. It's a question. Um that with collaboration that you stated five weeks that you stated we could have done more if we wanted to. So are you do you understand that we have the power to take and enforce?

Of course we always have but we haven't and the thing is I don't think the council will again the reason is because of the timing of the annual report. I would have introduced this back in February, but when I met with the independent monitor, she had specifically asked me to wait until her annual report was out, which is why I waited till March 15th. I think her annual report actually came out on March 18th. And then I read it that day and then put out my ordinance the very next day and that was followed by the legislative memo the next day. It was 48 hours of hell, but I tried my best to meet the timeline and it is not perfect, but it is much more than any other committee gets. Um, and it is an immense amount of staff time that people helped me out with that I think needs to be credited to them specifically because it was never like yes, anyone can always use more time. That is always going to be the answer. Um, but also the city does need to enforce its rules, especially when we have ordinance violations and APM violations and lawsuits and all of that stuff. At some point, the council needed to take action and I felt like that that time was soon as possible. Thank you.

Thank you, Alder. Are there other questions for former Alder Gabbinder Rajan? Seeing none, are there any other questions for any of the other registrants? Seeing none, is there appetite for a brief recess? Yes, mayor. Is there a motion for a 10-minute recess? So moved by Alder Okovitz and seconded by Alder Madison. Is there any objection to recording unanimous vote in favor of a 10-minute recess? If not, we will be back at 10:56.

I'm about one minute out.

Okay, folks, it's 10:57. So, if I can have the alders in the room please return to your seats and the alders on Zoom, come back with your cameras and the alders in the room and the staff returned to their seats. How are we on noses? 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Okay. I would like to call back to order the common council meeting of Tuesday, April 21st, and ask the clerk to please call the role.

Thank you. Alder Glenn, Alder Glenn is present. Alder Ugare preser is present. Alder Harrington McKenna present Harington McKenna is present. Alder Lella here is present. Alder Lieberman here. Alder Lieberman is present. Alder Madison here. Aler Madison is present. Alder Martinez Rutherford. Alder Martinez Rutherford is present. Alder Matthews here. Alder Matthews is present. Alder mayor Mayor is present. Alder O'Brien here. Alder O'Brien is present. Alder Ohich present. Ohich is present. Alder Pritchette. Alder Pritchette is present. Alder Tishler. I'm here. Alder Tishler is present. Alder River

here. Alder is present. Alder Vidver. Alder Vidver is kind of present. Alder Jeang. Hello. Alder Jang is present. Alder Duncan here. Duncan is present. Alder Evers. Alder Evers is present. Alder Field here. Field is present. Alder Fig call. Oh, that's me. Yes. here. Alder Figo Cole is present. Madame member quorum. Thank you.

Thank you. I see we have reached the um slightly punch drunk session of the evening. Um and so let me just say that it having participated in many late night council meetings, you do reach that point. And I just ask everybody, alders, people observing to have some grace for the fact that we're all human beings and it's late at night and some of us maybe haven't had enough sleep or enough caffeine or whatever it takes. Um, and to please don't interpret us joking with each other as a lack of seriousness for the issues that are before us. Um, we're all human beings. we're all stuck in this room until this meeting is over and um I think we just have to be able to learn to live with that. So um we have finished now public comment. Um and so we are going to go to item seven. um which is legisar 92339 an appeal of the plan commission action on the conditional use request for 2927 East Washington Avenue which was legisar ID 91510 and before we get a motion on item 7 I'm sincerely hoping that attorney Smith and Director Tuttle are here um so that we can get just a little orientation on this item and the nature of the appeal and the options for the motion um before we enter into it. So I don't know director Tuttle or Attorney Smith whoever wants to go first. Yeah, director Tuttle we can hear you.

Okay, great. I will start and then attorney Smith will add a few considerations for the council. Um so good evening council and mayor. As the mayor noted, this item relates to an appeal of a plan commission denial of a request for outdoor amplified sound for a business, the Monakra Brewing Madison Tap Room at 2927 East Washington Avenue. The original request for the Amplified Sound in an outdoor eating area is a conditional use, which is a type of zoning approval that the plan commission considers. The plan commission is vested with the responsibility for reviewing these types of requests and either approving them, approving them with conditions or denying them based on their review of the request and their consideration of the standards that are outlined in our ordinance. Um, specifically in MGO28183, the plan, I'm sorry, the common council sees these um conditional uses only when they are appealed to the common council, which is why this item is before you tonight. In this process, the council will be acting as a quasi judicial body, which really just means that the council must review the item that's before them and the count uh plan commission's action on it compared to the standards in the ordinance. Again, 28183. Uh so, in this case, this is not a question of creating policy for how we regulate sound in outdoor seating areas. um nor is it a question of whether we may like or dislike the proposal or some of the dynamics that's before us tonight, but it's specifically a question of whether or not um we can

make findings related to the standards of approval for a conditional use and uh for the council to consider whether to affirm or reverse the plan commission's prior action. So after uh considering the appeal and the plan commission's March 2026 decision, the council may take one of two actions uh and must make and must state findings as part of its decision on one of these actions. The council can deny the appeal. Um, this would be an appropriate action for the council if it finds that one or more of the standards of approval uh for a conditional use cannot be met. It could alternatively approve the appeal by either reversing or modifying the plan commission's previous denial. This would be an appropriate action if the council finds that all of the standards of approval that are relevant to this application can be met. Uh the standards of approval are included in a memo that attorney Kate Smith provided uh for the council attached to the legisar file and I'll talk a little bit more about which are applicable to this here in just a second. So uh moving then into the nature of the question that's in front of you. Uh, at the March 2nd, 2026 meeting, the applicant, Manaka Brewing, requested approval for a conditional use to allow amplified sound in an existing outdoor seating area. Staff understood the request to include amplified music from 3 to 6:00 p.m. on Saturdays between May and October and also to include amplified sound associated with Badger Games. The applicant included a proposal for some mitigating uh efforts to try to

address noise such as using sound blankets and monitoring noise with a decibel reader. In the review of this application, the plan cons the plan commission considered conditional use standards 1 through six which were relevant to this um again outlined in that memo. Staff recommended that most of these could be found met with the exception of standard three, which states that the uses, values, and enjoyment of other property in the neighborhood for purposes already established will not be substantially impaired or diminished in any foreseeable manner. The primary concern related to this standard was the proximity of this outdoor eating area um to other residential uses and staff could not definitively conclude that this standard could be met. We supported the plan commission's analysis of this uh with information about prior approvals for outdoor uh eating areas that included permissions for amplified sound and also provided a list of other potential noise mitigation measures that could be considered by the commission if they could find the standards met. However, after the public hearing, the plan commission denied the request, citing that the standards, particularly standard 3, could not be found met due to the proximity to residential uses. So, that's the background on this item, and I'll let attorney Smith provide a bit more additional legal information for this conversation.

Thank you, Director Tuttle. Um, and for the new alders in the room, congratulations. My name is Kate Smith and I'm the assistant city attorney who works with the planning and zoning staff. Um, Director Tuttle has given you an overview of the conditional use process under our local ordinances. And in addition to our Madison general ordinances, Wisconsin statutes also provide a framework for conditional use applications and decisions. Under Wisconsin statute subsection 62.237DE2A, 237DE2A if you want to get specific. Um, if an applicant for a conditional use permit meets or agrees to meet all of the requirements and conditions specified in the city ordinance or those imposed by the city zoning board in our case that would be the plan commission. The city shall grant the conditional use permit. Any condition imposed must be related to the purpose of the ordinance and be based on substantial evidence. Substantial evidence is also a defined term in the Wisconsin statutes as facts and information other than merely personal preferences or speculation directly pertaining to the requirements and conditions an applicant must meet to obtain a conditional use permit and that reasonable persons would ac would accept in support of a conclusion. So substantial evidence can be provided through staff materials or public comments. But the fact that large numbers of people or small numbers the case may be may um come to oppose or support a project is not by itself grounds for for denial or approval. This is not to say that all public hearing testimony or submitted comments are relevant. Um, but only public hearing testimony classified as personal preference or opinion or is unrelated to the zoning ordinance standards is irrelevant to the conditional use decision-making body. So, the deciding

body, you all tonight, are responsible for synthesizing materials presented to them from multiple sources and make findings of fact on the record to support their determination. In other words, so kind and finally, your job is to explain how you interpret what evidence supports or fails to support whether the standards are met. So for example, you could say X in the staff report or Y in public comment supports a specific enumerated conditional use standard. And I know this might feel clunky, but your job is not just to state conclusions, but explain the lawful basis for these conclusions. And even though the hour is late, and I know that you all have more items on your agenda, your statutory responsibility as a body is to put on the record the evidence to support your conclusion linked to one or more of the ordinance standards. And I will just h as a reminder since I am I I can't remember if director Tuttle said it. Um but the action of the plan commission shall be upheld unless it is reversed or modified by a favorable vote of twothirds of the member of the common council. So thank you and I'm available to answer any questions.

Thank you Director Tuttle and Attorney Smith. Are there questions for staff on this item? Alder Yugare.

Thank you mayor. This is a question for director Tuttle. Uh, one of the things that we heard tonight was the proximity in terms of distance from the residences uh, nearby to the area where there would be amplified sound. Uh as I recall, this was also an issue that was discussed extensively uh at the uh meeting when uh the application was denied by the plan commission. I think it might be helpful for all of us uh if you would uh perhaps compare this denial in this case to another recent uh Gilman Street uh uh action where the plan commission did approve uh amplified sound but found uh that condition that standard number three was met for a variety of reasons. I think that's a one that might be useful for this body to consider and how it applies standard number three. Could you just refresh us a little bit on that decision and why despite the proximity in that case a dis a different decision uh was reached and that one was approved.

Yeah, thank you alder. That's a really good question and I also failed to mention at the beginning that principal principal planner Kevin Furkow is also here. Um I think Kevin is prepared to speak to this question.

Um thank you Director Tuttle. I'm Kevin FCO a principal planner um in the planning division. Um so um to your question Alder uh on the record um you're referring to an item that was recently considered by the plan commission that also had some proximity questions um and some of the distinctions that were raised um between this item and that and there are some similarities between these two requests but among the differences um prior to the motion being made there was a question asked of staff and staff had noted a few uh differences between the two requests. One had to do with the uh different zoning uh both for the subject property and surrounding properties. Another difference between the two requests was um the subject one that you were reviewing this evening on East Washington for Monaka Brewing was in closer proximity to more residential units um than the one that was approved a few weeks ago. Um and another uh physical difference was the patio area for the one that was approved a couple of weeks ago was a larger area. Um and staff at the time at that meeting had noted that would potentially provide more flexibility to move speakers and other things and ar have more flexibility in layout uh in terms of to increase the distance between sound sources and nearby residential uses have more flexibility in the setup of that. Um so that was the question that was raised. Um in the findings that the plan commission made, they did say a few things on the record in addition to that. They had noted that um as part of their motion um they cited um based on the public hearing um that the the applicant for the one that was approved um had worked uh with um some of the surrounding neighbors and provided some solutions to address um some of the sound and to mitigate some of the concerns. Um and that was noted by a couple of speakers. And it was also noted um that the nature of the outdoor sound um and how the sound was going uh

to be uh the amplified sound was going to be used uh was found to also be a mitigating factor for the project that was approved. So those were the items that were um cited as being different between those two um uh recent requests. Thank you, Kevin. That answers my question. Thank you, Megan. Thank you, mayor. Thank you, Alder. Uh, Alder Mayor,

thank you, Mayor. Um, planner FCO, in the staff report um for the original plan commission meeting, there's a table that lists uh median and average distances between um locations that were allowed, outdoor seating areas that were allowed, amplification, and those that weren't. Um, and it shows that the median, and I believe that this property is 40 ft away uh from the nearest residential.

Yes. And um the median uh application for or median distance for things that have been approved was 45 where it's 175 for ones that were approved. So it was 40 ft away at the time of the um denial of this this um application. Um and has the I'm sorry I'm so tired right now. Has the uh property moved any further away since then or is that at the same distance?

Uh the property uh would be at the same distance. I did want to note um you referenced the table just for the record that there was an addendum um and there were some updated figures based on staff's review. Um we realized that um we corrected a couple of the statistics and that was noted for your consideration that was um uploaded to Legisar last week um from information that was in the regular staff report. But yes, the uh the closest residence is approximately 40 ft from the outdoor um amplified uh or for the the patio in question here for East Washington Avenue.

Thank you. Yeah, considering that was the basis of the decision then that's what I was wanted to make sure that was the same thing now. So thank you. Thank you Alder. Are there other questions for staff? Other figure I'll call Kevin which file has those statistics in the legisar uh there in the in legisar 92339 the appeal file there is an addendum to the staff report um that updates the table that alder mayor just referenced um and there's a little bit more information uh background information about uh some background information that was corrected from the original staff report that the plan commission reviewed when they reviewed this case in March.

So, what's the file name? Uh, the file name is I believe it's uh referred to as staff report addendum. Got it.

I can get you the exact name here. Um, it is it is staff comments addendum and then the date uh April 17, 2026. Um, so can you can you elaborate on this um table because that's I was going to ask about you know does I don't think the ordinance has anything specific about how many feet needs to be from the property. So um and I really want to make sure that you know we cover whatever decision we made we had the right wording. So can you what what is this can you talk about this data that was uh that is presented here on this agendum?

Sure. Uh really quickly uh summarizing what is in that addendum. Uh it identifies two properties. Um 1602 Gillson Street and 506 through 518 East Wilson Street uh and 132 150 South Blair Street. Uh that's all the same property. Um the Gillson Street one and the second one is the Essen House. Those are approvals um that have outdoor sound and they were referenced in the original staff report, but they were incorrectly categorized as not having outdoor sound approvals for the Gillson Street one and that was the one that was just reapproved. Uh while outdoor sound was not allowed, um there was an exception for four outdoor events in its 2018 approval. Um, again, as noted earlier, um, recently at their last plan commission meeting, the plan commission approved a new conditional use, um, with outdoor sound for Gilson Street. And then for the Essen House one, um, that was also one that was miscatategorized in that table. Um, there were a couple other uh, conditional uses uh, for outdoor sound that were also uh, found to have been inadvertently omitted. Um so the updated table is on page two of that addendum and um it summarizes outdoor eating areas going back to about mid 2015. It it find it notes that there were 84 applications that involved um outdoor eating areas. Um and it shows that uh 14 of those 84 um had some sort of outdoor sound approval. Um and then um in 54 um there was not outdoor sound approval. That's not to say that it was denied um all of those cases. In most of those cases, it wasn't requested or the plan commission applied a a commonly applied uh uh condition where they did not allow outdoor amplified sound. And that was in 54 of those cases. And then in 16 cases, an applicant specified that they were not seeking an outdoor sound approval

with that. And along with that table, it just it it it summarizes um median and average and the range of distance and um among the corrections here, the average and the median distance um that it uh went down a bit from the data that was in the original report. Um but what we're seeing in this report is um based on our our our current understanding uh the median distance where um was 98 ft where outdoor sound or I'm sorry where outdoor amplified sound was allowed with an average of 202t and a range between 0 and 8 20 ft of other cases where outdoor sound was allowed. So um Alder I'll pause there to see if you had any followup. So

I'm I'm following. So to recap, there's 14 applications since 2015 that came with amplified sound and the average of those distances were 22 ft and the medium was 98. That's correct. Thank you. That's all I got for now. Thank you. Alder, uh, other questions for staff? Alder Pritchette

for those who received approval for for ampl for amplified sound in the past. You mentioned Wilson Street and I think you mentioned Gills and some of the others. Have you received feedback from those who were affected or those who opposed amplified sound? Feedback regarding did the applicant this business did they come up with suitable ways to solve the problem of sound? Anything like that? or do we have a mechanism for addressing? So something is is is is approved and then it it's approved and then everything s kind of goes away. But then for those who are affected by it, is there a mechanism for them to come back and say whatever they put up to kind of abate the the sound? Have they come back and said that this isn't working? And if so, you know, how many uh individuals or those who opposed, you know, have mentioned this, you know, do they just let it die and say we're going to suck it up and deal with it or is there a mechanism for that?

Thank you. There is a mechanism and the term in the zoning code is referred to as continuing jurisdiction and essentially what that means is that the plan commission has ongoing oversight of a conditional use and there's a process um if someone believes that a a use is not meeting condition approvals or is no longer would be meeting the standards, there's a process um that the plan commission could consider um uh reconsider an item and either add additional conditions, change the conditions or potentially reverts its decision. Again, that is called continuing jurisdiction. That is the the mechanism. Um offh hand um I don't believe um that any of the the conditional uses here um of those 14 um went through the continue the formal continuing jurisdiction process. I don't know offhand if a complaint had been filed um uh to uh building inspection, zoning um and alder. So I I can't say with certainty if if there was a complaint that had been filed on any of those. I I'll just add um Alder that I do know in the case of the Essen House approval that uh Kevin mentioned a few minutes ago after a prior approval, we did hear some concerns from some of the neighbors of the Essen House that were affected by some of the sound activities. Um they did bring those issues to the attention of staff in the zoning division. It was determined that they were operating their outdoor sound on their patio consistent with their approval and so there were no zoning violations or any concerns to refer to the plan commission. But we know that their approval was only issued at that time for one year on intentionally to

ensure that the plan for how they were going to manage sound for their events was going to be successful. So those neighbors were able to come and participate in the plan commission's next hearing when the plan commission considered the renewal of that uh uh permit the next year.

So So is this something that you know someone who is opposing amplified sound is this communicated to them? Is this you know you know they need I mean they're living there and and and I just need what do we do? What do we say to someone who is about to have or be bombarded bombarded by amplified sound? Do we let them know that there is a mechanism that they can explore if it is not working? If if complaints were filed, we would certainly, you know, note the the different options, including continuing jurisdiction and other options that that might be available. As far as the the condition, the continuing jurisdiction, um, whenever we have a conditional use like this, um, we note that in the staff report, so it's on the record that this tool does exist in the zoning code. Um, so that there there are different ways that we notice that. Um but often times this would be something that if concerns came in and they would typically come in through zoning um or building inspection uh would be a common place for those to start. Um the whether or not that um the uh the applicant uh the applicant could be advised um or would be advised if continuing jurisdiction would be an avenue um to explore.

So it's like after the fact, correct? Yes. We don't publicly tell them, you know, if it's not working out, you can file. Well, I think

we do, yeah, we do mention the issue of continuing jurisdiction as part of the staff memos when we are dealing with conditional use requests. So, um, this issue that Kevin's mentioning that the plan commission retains the ability to hear, uh, concerns about conditional use permits that it issues regardless of what they're for. So, this we're talking about sound right now. It could apply to anything. Um, so if there are concerns that a conditional use that it approves is not operating according to its conditions or that as Kevin mentioned before that the standards can no longer be met. Um, that is a process that exists and we do mention that as part of the staff report when it's prepared. So that's part of the public record before an approval happens.

Thank you. Thank you, Alder. Are there other questions for staff on this item? Aler Figuro Cole

um in regard to trying to you know figure out how to word this and use the evidence we have in front of us. There's a mentioning of a 8 ft fence um what you know what protection does an 8 ft fence will have against noise in a case like this? I mean, I'm thinking about like living by the bed line, how we had those noise walls and they only serve to the people that are next to it and as as people get farther away, the noise travels, you know, the wall doesn't do anything for them. So, is that the same concept here?

Uh, well, there is a there is an existing fence. Um and in as part of the applicant's uh initial conditional use request, in addition to the fence, they had proposed adding a sound mitigating curtain. Um and they provided uh some information on that. And so in the original staff report of March 2nd, there is an approval content uh condition that talks about that the applicant would install a sound mitigating curtain on the fence um um or a similar system um to to increase that um so that was part of the original staff report of March 2nd.

Thank you. Thank you, Alder. Are there any further questions for staff? Seeing none, then um President Madison, a motion, please. Uh thanks, Mayor. I'd like to defer to Alder Field. Alder Field. A motion, please. Yep. I move that the common council upholds the decision of the plan commission. Moved and seconded. Would you like to speak to it?

Yes, please. And thank you. Um, so I wanted to note that standard three, the uses and enjoyment of surrounding properties was the main focus of this part of the plan commission's discussion on the item and I think it remains relevant today. We've heard from and more public commenters at the plan commission meeting, but some today about the impacts of existing noise and then worse impacts of potential amplified sound on their uses and enjoyments of their property nearby. And I think that they made a pretty good case that they're concerned that the sound itself would be the problem, sound from amplified noise if this were to be approved. I think that the staff report and the addendum do a great ex provide a great example of how we have made this decision in the past when noise has been relevant to adjacent residential uses where we typically do not approve these when they're this close to a residence. And in the case of this particular request, it's very close to properties directly on East Washington Avenue that are potential, well, current and then some potential future intensive development sites where a lot of people will live. Um, so those were all relevant to the discussion that we had at the plan commission and I think they're relevant to this discussion tonight too for those reasons. I certainly don't think that condition three is met. Um, yep.

Thank you, Alder. Is there further discussion uh on item seven? Alder Ugger.

Thank you, mayor. Just like to amplify that also as a member of the plan commission uh we heard a good deal more testimony at that point than we did tonight. Uh also convincing the commission that uh the noise given the proximity and the nature of the activities that were going to be amplified uh were quite convincing and compelling in arriving at decision that uh standard number three would not be met. And I again I'll point out as we heard from uh planner furkow in the comparison to a more recent approval again with uh some fairly close proximity that we were talking about a different kind of activity that uh uh for which the sound would be amplified and uh we also heard that uh in that approval that uh one of the reasons given by the plan commission and reflected in the minutes for that meeting was that there was extensive uh interplay between the applicant and the neighbors uh and responsiveness by uh the applicant in that particular case to adjusting the uh various mediating uh activities that they were going to undertake and and structures and so forth that would further mitigate the sound. So, uh I would also agree that uh we should deny the u appeal in this particular case. Thank you, mayor. Thank you, Alder. Is there further discussion on this item? Seeing no further discussion, um the motion is to deny the appeal. A

denial of appeal requires a simple majority, 11 votes. Um, if the motion were to um uphold, it would require twothirds. Is there any objection to recording a unanimous vote in favor of denying the appeal? Seeing no objection, the appeal is denied. And we'll move on to item 55, which is legisar 92386, a substitute amending subsections of the Madison general ordinances to add public reporting requirements for the office of the independent monitor and the police civilian oversight board. On item 55, President Madison, a motion, please.

Uh, thank you, Mayor. I'd like to motion to adopt um version two u as stated in legislary item 92386. All right. So the motion is to adopt version two. Is there a second? Second. Moved and seconded to adopt uh version two. We'll start with questions for staff. Um alder mayor. Uh thank you. I move to re-refer this item to the PCOB meeting of June 17th to come back to council on July 21st. Um there's a replacement motion to refer to the June 17th

correct meet meeting of PCOB and the uh July 21st meeting of the common council. That's been moved and seconded. So, um, on the motion to refer, just on the motion to refer, are there relevant questions for staff that need to be asked? Alder Lieberman. Um, I have a question for attorney Hos.

Go ahead. Um, I'm just wondering if there are any and and tell me if this is not something that can be asked here. Um, are there any current issues involving adherence to um to the uh ALRS that uh it sorry it's okay. It's been a long I got you. You're brand new.

Um, are there any issues that uh we would be that uh would be impacted by pushing this down uh to later this year. Are there any current uh not that I'm aware of? Um well, I'm not aware of any like current non-compliance with APMS at this Elder Glenn.

Hello. Question. Are there any current issues with any labor laws happening inside of your office? No. Do you see any reason to think there would be If the city gets control fully, yes, but not anything pertaining to us internally and we work collaboratively with the HR director currently, so there hasn't been any issues will during a referral, are you w willing to um collaborate with people um to come up with any suggestions between both um on a referral. I was um I had a what was supposed to be a 1h hour meeting with the city attorney um and the chair that turned into a three-hour meeting and we made agreements and those agreements were broken. Um, I have met with pretty much all of you in this space. I have had a consistent relationship with the chief and assistant chief. Um, I have met with department heads and at many points um, the concerns that you all have brought up were addressed and I have witnesses on day one. I asked for a case management system so that the data sharing and all of the

things I'm I'm sorry point of order Figuro Cole can you speak into the microphone please. So are we just talking about the question on referral because I I think we want the only question before us is referral. Yeah. Yes. So I'm answering the question she asked me would I be willing to work. Thank you. Thank you for answering. And so can I can I thank Thank you.

Um the lies that have come from this city leadership has caused me to believe I cannot work. I've come to the table with everyone and there was no reason for this. things were addressed immediately. There hasn't been any concerns pertaining to the leadership of the office. Now, so when you ask me, can I work with you all? I don't know how to answer that without being honest, I don't believe I can. I think there's a few of you that have been honest, but when you all ask MGR questions about what took place and there's not an honest conversation, I don't know if I can work with you all. When I've seen Greg be dragged through the mud and there be no real context, I don't know if I can work with you all. I don't know if I'm going to have another agreement for three hours and then that be completely scraped away. I don't know if the mayor's office is going to say that I've done so many things and scolded them and that never happened. I don't know. I know I've been able to work with the chief, the the people I have oversight of. Would you be willing to work with a few of the alders if people could be honest? If you all were willing to have an investigation into what actually took place? Why are city staff telling the chief that Greg did interviews that he didn't do to mislead the community and mislead the

public and undermine my leadership and my authority? If we're willing to have those conversations, then yes, I'm willing to work with you all. Do you think that with that we need to have a uh some time to be able to look through? I seen your email that you had sent with a lot of information for all of us. Um, one of the reasons I wanted to second this referral was because of that. I think we got a lot of information today. I think we got some answers today. Things started not adding up for me. So I would like some time. Do you think that with all the information you shared that there is more that we need to know? Definitely.

Thank you. Thank you, Elder. Are there any other questions for staff that are relevant to the question of referral? Seeing none, the motion before us is referral. Is there discussion? Alder Okovitz? Um, yeah. I referral. Oh, absolutely. Go ahead.

Thank you. Thank you. Uh, respected colleagues, uh, this amendment was initially referred to the PCOB at their March 25th meeting where they declined to discuss it and voted to re recommend it be placed on file with prejudice. I believe this was a mistake at the time and I'll admit I was very frustrated because I wanted to get their legitimate feedback on the record in an open forum, not only on former Alder MGR's proposed amendment, but my suggestion of potentially having an Alder serve in some capacity on the PCOB. But I will say I do now understand the initial hostility at that March 25th meeting. The PCOB is a unique body among our 100 odd committees, commissions, and boards in many ways. One of those painful ways is how the PCOB and OM have been under routine attack uh since their formation. Even as recent as the last budget cycle, there was an 11th hour move to defund them completely. So I understand the suspicion. I understand the reaction. We on this council know that the timing and nature of legisar is often not opportune, often causes whiplash. I think that's what happened here. Since that meeting, I have met with members of the PCOB and I believe that they are more receptive now to taking constructive steps forward. I do think that if re-referred, they will recommend changes to the proposed amendment. I think we can work collaboratively and I think we should listen to and carefully consider those changes. I would like to give the PCOB a second chance to constructively move forward this effort to make the PCOB and OM structurally stronger and resilient into the future. The proposed changes are important. Contrary to much public comment, I think they will make these organizations stronger. But I do not think that they are so urgent that we cannot give them a little more time to work their way through a democratic process. We may have agreement on the council, but we need buyin from the PCOB and the OIM and the community. So, let's slow it down. Let's slow it down and please vote to refer to revert to the PSO. Thank you.

Thank you, Alder. Alder Okovich.

Thank you, Mayor. Um, sorry. We generally have a policy on the city council not to refer things just to slow it down. We refer them to gain new information that we need for making decisions. Um, I did read IM glasses memo today. Um, and there is a lot in there and there has been a lot there's been a lot of talk in the media and um in uh organizations and just in the city about what's going on here. But what's before us are the amendments for the um amending the ordinances for the OIM, including uh requiring them to comply with APMS, having them use uh the city attorney and HR and IT for administrative tasks, um changing the report requirements, um and sorry, I got I think the last one is also related to report requirements. Sorry, late night. Um, I don't see how referring to the July meeting and then redising is going to bring us new information that is going to change how we're going to make a decision tonight. So, that I will be voting no on referring.

Thank you, Alder. Alder Matthews. Thank you, mayor. Um, sorry. Uh, it's late. Um, not that late compared, you know, for but for us, this is pretty late. Um, I, uh, wanted to speak to the referral. Um, I think there are two big reasons why it makes sense to refer this. Um, I think that even if there was no intention to further rework what's on the table right now, which I think there very much is, um, what would be coming back in July wouldn't be the same ordinance. It would be different. Um, even if that weren't the case, um, I think for myself, there is more information that I need that I guess we could maybe stay here until 4:00 a.m. and get it potentially, maybe, but even then, I think there's more information that I would need to make the correct decision on this item. um even just the spread of information and how we've gotten it and how it's gotten into legisar and who has had all the pieces of the information um is not very equal across all of us. Um for example, two of our colleagues, this is their very first night. Um I know they got some emails copied to like their campaign emails that I saw but or addressed. Um, but there's a lot of context that I would imagine that they might want more information on. Um, but just for myself, um, I was learning new things about this, you know, I don't know, almost every day of the last two weeks and the things that have come out, the things that are in legisar,

some of the other things that have been discussed, there is conflict there. And I do think that I I need more time to um to get more information. I think there is a need to um reconcile the conflict. Um so there's that. Um but also I do think that the intention is to continue to work on the ordinance. I think the changes, even the ones that I'm co-sponsoring, could use more collaboration and more discussion and more work. Um, and so that time would be spent well. Uh, and I will leave it at that for now. Um, I'll I guess I'll just say that we we heard a lot of public comment tonight. Um, and I think it was our brand new vice president who used the word uh the speed of trust. Yes, the speed of trust is slow. Um, I think that, you know, some of the things we've heard tonight from folks are, let's see, uh, and and I do think this is relevant. Um, right. Uh, someone who's a social or someone who works with children saying that they're aruck at what they've experienced in regards aruck at what the children have experienced in regards to policing at the age of 11 or 12 or 14. Um, we also had some mention of the mechanisms for reporting for survivors. um mechanisms to interact with the city and that when the trust isn't there, people don't feel comfortable coming to us for resources that we have or um to even just report

the things that they're experiencing. Um and I think that it's our responsibility to be building that trust. Um I also uh just wanted to say right like the ask for us to look internally at the infrastructure we provide to folks um in the context of right that is the trust there for people to actually use the resources that we spend the taxpayer money on to offer because the city does incredible things. Um, and then I especially want to point out um from a very young person who came up and gave public comment from uh the Freedom Youth Squad. Uh, and this I believe I wrote down exactly as a direct quote that without the voices of those most v most vulnerable, we are failing to do them justice. Um, and I do have a a little more that maybe I won't have to say, but for now I'm good.

Thank you, Alder. On the question of referral, Alder Lieberman. Yeah, I um I would just like to second what Alder Matthews said there and specifically as somebody who is new uh here, I worked as hard as I could these last uh two weeks um to get caught up on this issue, but I think today raised some questions of fact that I personally don't know that I feel fully comfortable committing one way or another on this. I understand if the alders who have spent more time on this issue do, but personally I think I would benefit from a referral, I'll also say to the point that Alder Matthews was making regardless of the intended impact of these changes, I think that there are many members of our community who s who who feel that these changes are uh would have harm arm. And I think that a time for referral would not only allow us to change the language, but to work on that outreach and to make sure that those community members uh and those groups feel uh heard and either we can fix a language or work on the education to make sure that the act of passage itself is not committing emotional harm to uh vulnerable members of our community. Um so I'll be voting uh yes to refer Thank you, Alder. Alder hearing to McKenna.

Uh, thank you, Madame Mayor. Um, I am definitely going to support the referral and let me just um uh put this before the body is is that um I was one of the three alders who voted to shift money uh during capital during the capital budget away from this department. And it was before I realized that there was a a potential hire in the uh in the negotiation piece. And so as soon as I realized that there was a um a person to be hired in that position, I shifted. But I had a conversation with the new hire and it was very clear to me that um a lot of what did not happen prior to her coming here was being shifted over to the the current um IM and I don't think that that's fair. Um, I don't think and I've never agreed with uh um um Dr. Good I always get your name mixed up, but in this I agree with him. And the reason that I agree with him is is that community voices must be heard and if I've got questions um and the community uh by virtue of it's almost 11:00 and we are still asking questions and talking about this. I'm not clear at all and to refer this so that there would be an opportunity for questions to be asked for community voices to show up and so for all of the decision makers to be at the table

that's very very important and so we can pass this ordinance but if we don't have all the pieces we don't have all the pieces I don't have all the pieces and to refer this and give us an opportunity to have the players at the table so that when we make a decision, we can follow through with that decision. I don't think we have all the answers and so I strongly support the referral um until we have the opportunity to have those representatives. doesn't have to be everybody, but it does have to be rep representatives who are decision makers to come back to this body with what they decided collaboratively. So, I will be supporting the referral.

Thank you, Alder. Alder Glenn.

Yes. Um, I just want to remind everybody of the awesome job that has been done since our new independent monitor. I don't think that has been talked about enough in with out of our mouths of the amount of work, the an annual report, um getting things together with data, being able to put it through in a such a short amount of time and after we had waited 5 years for this first one. Um she understands what needs to be done. She is following rules that now were here but we want to add to um that are labor rules. I just feel like and then we get this email today with all of these things that that one of the things we talk about in like criminal justice is clean hands. And if there's not clean hands, it's just hard to deal with something until you know if everybody has clean hands. You can't come in and ask for something from someone when you don't have clean hands in a court of law. I know this isn't a court of law, but if there were things being done and if there are things being caused harm to something that 700 of us showed up for, I was one. It was funny. I reach tried to reach out to one of the former alders and the last time I spoke to them was from that night in my messenger. Um, and we showed up as a community, as a rally, as finally feeling like we have a voice. And I know most of the alders here are a whole bunch of people. We're a whole bunch of people with lived experience who want to do something. I talk about

this often in peer support as uh uh is that you still aren't equal to someone when it now becomes your job even if you have the same lived experience. And so when we go into places and we are thinking we are the community, we carry a power with us that others bow to. We talk about this in criminal justice so much. There's they've had to come up with rules around it. Um because the power dynamic um and I feel like there's so much being blame being put on this committee in this office and not enough on what did we do or what did we not do? And I want to find out. I want time to dig into this. I don't want ordinances coming up that are already out that are rules. I I there's ordinances that I might want to have that I feel like why don't they have individ MPD when it's clearly written. So if those rules are being broken, then why are we then saying that they have to have rules? That's unclean hands. So, I want to look into this. I want to review this. I want to talk to people. I would love I love the idea. whoever said the committee. Um but June, okay, we that's faster than the speed of trust. But but um this community deserves for us to give it our best shot every single time this

office comes to the table. This office needs equity. We talk about it all the time. Nobody wants to do it. You know what equity means? That I need more than you. And you need to accept that I get more than you. This office needs equity. It needs us to give it more than what we give something else because we are asking community who have been harmed by the system we work for. We are asking people to show up multiple times. We are asking people to carry the burden because it's the only out we have for police oversight right now. Maybe we need a quas judicial. Maybe we need this. I mean not a quas judicial. Maybe we need it to be an enterprise. Maybe we need to do that. Maybe that's the thing we work on because what we're doing if it the tiniest bit limits them. We're doing the wrong thing because they deserve equity, not equality. Don't compare them to the other committees. They're not the other committees. They're the committees that are people that have been harmed by the city and the system we work for. It is our duty to make sure we get it 100% right and that is going to take a little more time with the information we were given. Thank you.

Thank you, Alder. Alder Pitchette,

you know, the need for PCO and OIM is well documented. Well documented primarily because I lived it. I wish in the 60s and the 50s that there was a PCOB and a OM but there was none. So when we fast forward to today, I look at OIM and PCOB as being in its infancy. And I do mean its infancy. And it's obvious it has experienced some growing pains. It's time for us as the legislative body here to begin to look at what do we do? What do we not do to create the situation that we're currently in? I'm reminded of a movie that I saw years ago was called Cool Hand Luke. And the statement in Cool Hand Luke, the overseer of this group of prisoners, this guy tried to escape on numerous occasions. And he finally said to him, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." And I think we really, really, really, really need to begin to think about the communication patterns, the back and forths and things like that because if we don't, then this is going to, you know, people from the M community and it was heartfelt and I

felt what she was saying. They didn't have a voice, no one to speak up and speak out for them. So it's those kinds of things that I'm reminded of that I think are very very important, very very critical with respect to us getting it right. There are golden opportunities to go back and before we come back begin to think about those who are not a part of the system take some opportunity if you've never read anything by Kirk Vanigot read Harrison Berseron because Harrison Berseron talks about the equity and how do we make it Right. Thank you.

Thank you, Alder. Alder Martinez Rutherford. On the question of referral. Thank you, Alder. Is there any further discussion on the question of referral? Alder Glenn for the second time. No, I'm not gonna ask. I have a friendly question. Oh, okay. I am wondering and this might and then we don't have to but just wondering if it might be better to push it to the August 4th meeting.

So, Alder Glenn is asking a question of Alder Mayor. Alder mayor, would you like to answer the question?

I'm sorry. Let me do a small explanatory comma for our new members. Because alders don't address each other, um you can't formally ask questions of each other during the meeting. So you can ask a question. You can say just for example, chair, I'm wondering if my colleague from the sixth district would be open to changing the date on the motion that the alder that you're referring to doesn't have to answer the question, but they can, but they have to ring in to answer the question. Oh,

explanatory comma over. Alder mayor. Uh, is is Alder Glenn asking for a friendly amendment? I'm asking for a friendly amendment. I There's no such thing as a friendly amendment. Alder mayor, would you like to to change your motion? Yes, I would change it to August the PCOB meeting. Wait, the PCB or the council meeting? Council. Yes. The council meeting of August 17th. August August 4th. August 17th. There's only one in August. Yeah. 84th. 84. Yes. 84. I'd like to make it

the fourth. That's all.

Come. You were kind of late. We got to be virtual last year. I went um I'm allowing only because of the hour. Am I allowing this cross talk? The So again, there is no such thing as a friendly amendment.

Alder mayor has requested to change his motion from the 2nd July council meeting to the only August council meeting. In order for that change to happen, the entire body has to agree to that. So if anybody objects to that change, we would have to vote on it on the change happening. Just filling you in on the procedure. Alder Jean, by referring to this to a later meeting, does that open it to public comment again or what is the kind what is the form of discussion?

That's an excellent question, Alder. Technically, once we have had public comment on an item, we don't have to have it again. But my suspicion is that this body would want to, particularly if there are substantive changes to the item, would want to to invite public comment again, but that would be up to you as a body. Thank you. Thank you, Alder. Have a question.

Alder Harrington McKenna, a question. Uh my question is is that um um if this is shifted to August, will that entail the um the the meeting that we're requesting, the PCOB meeting because the goal of extending this is to have the opportunity I thought to have a meeting within that committee. So, we're saying it would still be referred to the June PCOB meeting. Okay. And then it would just have more time between that meeting and when it came to council. Okay. Thank you. I just needed to clarify that.

Absolutely. Thank you, Alder. Okay. What's before us is the request to change the motion to refer this item to the June 17th PCOB meeting and the August 4th common council meeting. Is there objection to that being the motion? Seeing no objection, that is the motion before us. The question is referral. Is there further discussion? Alder Figuro call.

Thank you, mayor. Um I just want to follow up on what Will was saying earlier. Um, I know there has been a lot of back and forth going on um in the community that um that has been disgusting in all sides of the aisle. I just have to throw that out there because I'm just super annoyed with with the way that that has been played. But um in front of us what we have today is um there are only three things mainly well on the report we are talking about um we're not talking about all that noise. We're just talking about clarifying um the language for for the independence monitor to make it more specific to the um APMS. We're talking about um creating a process, codifying the MOU process that already exists, but just actually making it clear on that ordinance and um updating the reports then. So honestly, like it's not we're not changing this entire ordinance. We're not changing the power of um of um subpoenas. We're not we're not touching any of that stuff. is simply discussing theou adding that language um clarifying the things that are that it doesn't specifically um speaks about the APMS or makes this office part of the city and reports. So that's really what is on the discussion today. I did read the the memo that was sent today and in fact thank you for the memo because it's just this is not about this OIM. This is not about um when these things happen. I mean even the testimony admitted these things happened. So we have an OIM person right now that is supposed to be hiring the

next OIM. So we should create a clean slate for that upcoming person. It's just for the future OM for the future boards. So again I don't understand where all these extra I mean I heard testimony today about things that I'm confused by it. like I don't I don't get where that where people are making those connections. So I definitely would like to we've been here already for many hours. I would really prefer that if you don't want to vote for this just vote vote it down and move on with your lives and or um but but I'm not going to support the I don't want to support the referral. If this passes or doesn't or doesn't pass, it should not impact the work that some elders want to do with the commission with the committee that doesn't change. We do have to have work with that committee. We kn we do want to make it making sure that they have the tools that they need to um for success. That doesn't stop. If any of these changes are so harm harmful for the actual work of that committee which is investigations and other duties that they have, we can always go back and revise those changes. So the matter of continue to stretch this. We we already we had a a um a change coming last year that came directly from the committee sending the changes to the elder which have happens to be me and I put those forwards because it cames directly from the committee and that took nine months of back and forth just continue to create that divisiveness within the community. I just don't see that to be I don't see how it's that productive at all. So, I really hope that we can just take a few more minutes tonight to go over those three things that we want to change and discuss them and make a decision on what

the mass messages that you want to send. Do you want future boards to um to be successful and help this board to continue to be successful? This is not about the current IM. This is not about the current board. This is about processes and procedures that we as elders are supposed to be having oversight over it. This as as I I keep on hearing how many times we have come to this committee with changes. There have been a lot of changes on these ordinances that have been born from the committee and we have taken those on and move on with it. This ordinance was created in 2020 and it hasn't been touched since then. We um as the other here said earlier these are still in the infancy but it has been like five or six years. So we have a responsibility to take those instances that were fixed. So thank you very much for fixing them and addressing them but making sure that doesn't happen again. So this discussion of like this already happened and we fix it. Bravo. Thank you for doing that. But those things should not have happened. I should not have happened at all if we had had a stronger ordinance that spells out what it means. And I get it. I get it that people also talk about intent and all that stuff. If you didn't write it down, the intent doesn't matter. And that's what we here. That's what we're trying to accomplish here. We want to write this thing in a way that is clear specifically who has the um where does the the build anou don't just leave it out to for you guys to decide to do that or not. Make sure that there's an MOU. So we giving a direct directive to do that and the other changes which are associated with um

father I'm going to bring you back to report you you're right I'm I'm again this is a process a process exercise not a all the information that we been fed that may be right or might be wrong or whatever I can't I cannot support a referral for this

we only have one other aler in the queue Alder Matthews on the question of referral and for the second time I know um I still I'm sorry I still won't um go into the things I have written down about the need to have this committee. Um, I think we all understand that and again if we we talk about that later potentially, but I do think that uh sorry, I also think honestly that Vice President Glenn said it better than I could, but I do want to reiterate um and also add that I think if we push this through tonight um I again I still think that there are questions that I will not be able to have answered on just what is in the ordinance changes that are suggested. But on top of that, I think that the little tiny bit of trust that we have started to build with the PCOB with the current PCOB which is fairly new I believe. Um, I think that it will be and the trust that is already harmed with the public will be continued. It will be further harmed in a way that will make it extremely hard for us to collaborate with them in a way with us having all the power and being the representatives as the council of the city of the institution. Um I think that that will be if not irreparably harmed harmed to a very severe degree. Um and will impact the

ability for them to succeed and for us to successfully work with them and for things that it has been clarified are not ongoing problems. Um, I just don't see or I guess the question that we all have to ask ourselves is, is that worth it? Um, and for me it is not worth it. Um, if anything wild were to come up between now and August at any point that needed to be addressed, we can still do that cuz we can do anything at any time or not anything at any time, but we can do a lot of things and they don't have to be this ordinance. It could be something else. So that that's I guess uh all I have

call for the

Thank you Alder. A question before us is referral to the June 17th PCOB meeting and the August 4th council meeting at two explanatory commas for our new alders. Firstly, on any given item, we ask that alders only speak twice to it. That's on any given motion. So you might speak twice overall on an item um and for a maximum of 10 minutes just FYI. Um and then secondly on items where I sense that the discussion is heading in a direction I will ask for objection to a unanimous vote on items where I sense that there is disagreement. Um, I will proactively ask for a roll call, which I will do this time, but it is also um your prerogative to ask for a roll call on any item if you wish to. So, uh, anticipating disagreement, um, all those in favor will say I. Those opposed will say no. As your name is called and I will ask the clerk to call the role. Thank you. On referral, Alder Glenn,

I. Alder Glenn, I Alder Yugare, I. Alder, I Alder Harrington McKenna. I, Alder Hington McKenna. I Alderman Lankella. I Lella. I Alder Lieberman. I, Aler Lieberman. I, Alder Madison, come back. Alder Martinez Rutherford. Hi. Aler Martinez Rutherford. I Alder Matthews. I Alder Matthews I Alder mayor I mayor I aler O'Brien I O'Brien I aler oh no Alderhovich no Alder Pritchette I alette I Alder Tistler uh no

Alder Tishler no Alder I alier I aler Vidver I Alder Vidver I along I Alder Jang I Alder Duncan I Alder Duncan I Alder Evers I Alder Evers I Alder Field no Alder Field No Alder Figuro Cole no Figuro Cole no Alder Madison I alder Madison I have 16 eyes four nos

thank you with 16 eyes and four nos the referral passes I'm sorry one more explanatory comma. Um, it any item before the council requires 11 votes to pass regardless of how many people are here. It's not a simple majority. Um, and in this case, a referral vote is just a an 11 vote item. So, referral passes. Um, at the end of our agenda is any announcements or introductions from the floor. Are there any announcements or introductions from the floor? Seeing none, let me first congratulate

Alders Jeang and Lieberman on surviving their first council meeting. And Alder Elder Glenn Alder Glenn Alder Glenn, it's your turn to adjurnn. That's exciting. Is there a second? Moved and seconded to adjurnn. Is there any objection to recording unanimous vote in favor of adjournment? Seeing no objection, we stand adjourned. Have a good evening, morning everyone. So when is the cut off time for us? We can go. So,