Borough Council - Special Meeting

May I have a statement of compliance of the open public meetings act? In compliance with the open public meetings act, adequate notice of this meeting of the council was provided by forwarding a copy of the special meeting notice to the Madison Eagle and the Amars County Daily Record. All on February the 26th, 2026, posting a copy on the bulletin board at the main entrance of Burough Hall, and finally a copy in the office of the clerk. Copies of said notice were made available to members of the general public. For those are able, please rise for the pledge of allegiance.

To the flag of the United States of America to the stands, one nation, indivisible, and justice for all. All

right. Uh, roll call, please. Mayor Connley, here. Mr. Landrian, here. Mr. Range, here. Mr. Harlon Pudis. There he is. He He is recusing himself from the Oh, yes. Okay. Uh, Miss Hanahan here. Mr. Forte. Yes. Here. Miss Cohen here.

Hey. Well, welcome all. We have uh one, this is an advertised meeting of the mayor and council, but with uh in a town hall style with one agenda discussion that is the Waverly Place reconstruction project. Um I will go through the process shortly. Uh but I you have noticed that uh Councilman Harold Pudis is in the audience as a prop property and business owner of Waverly Place. he is has to recuse himself from any council discussions but can participate as a member of the public. Um and this is one of a series of meetings and more work to be done. Uh we had a meeting uh at the beginning of the month for stakeholders. Um that was a open meeting but for the most part was by invite to um property and business owners on and around Waverly Place. Uh for those that attended this meeting, I do see uh quite quite a bit of overlap. You will see that this is going to be a bit more formal. We had a kind of a back and forth discussion at the stakeholder meeting, but as a formal meeting, there'll be a a tighter structure and I'll go through that shortly. Um and this one is as mentioned a open town hall meeting. So it was uh anyone in the public who was welcome which so thank you all who have come out tonight and for those that may be watching at home or may be watching the recording at a a later date. Um just one uh thing on uh timing of the project. we are in the you know factf finding I guess you could call it the factf finding phase and that is to help guide us in the final decision as to what uh the project will look look like and I'll explain why we're doing the project um initially we were hoping to be in under construction in 2027

but that is uh deter that will be determined by the amount of uh uh prior uh pre or pre uh infrastructure work that may may be done such as uh water line replacement, sewer, um electric upgrades. Uh we only want to dig once and you want to dig in the right order. So, uh timing to be um confirmed and question comes up is why are we uh reconstructing Waverly Place? Uh on some of the basic levels, the the trees need to be replaced. Uh most of them are dying and are not appropriate for the location. Uh Waverly Place has very little storm water uh management and if anyone is there and during the heavy rain or trying to cross uh Waverly Place by Chase Bank in the winter when there's ponding ice right there, you know, we have issues with the um um storm water sidewalks. Uh, and this is not just a Waverly Place issue, but it is a full downtown issue with the PA sidewalks, especially coming out of the winter with the thaw freeze cycle are in uh disrepair. Uh, whatever the decision is to go with sidewalks in Waverly, will set the tone for the rest of uh the downtown area as sidewalks are upgraded and clearly the uh pavement surface is in poor shape. So those are things that were driving the thoughts behind uh why we're reconstructing. This is not much different than why we how we do reconstruction of roads throughout the burrow. But of course this is a uh a spot that's near to dear and to many people's hearts when we um reconstructed culde-sac. You don't have a crowd like this showing up to uh hear about the reconstruct for the culde-sac. Um you'll shortly we're going to be going into the presentation, but you'll see the many different lives that Waverly Place has had over the years

after the uh great fire um that uh kind of led to Madison being incorporated as separate municipality. Uh it buildings were pushed back creating a town center and that was intentional. It's a it's a far different uh distance between buildings on Waverly P place than you see on Main Street or you would see in most down downtowns and that was to create this town center. Um you know you'll see a picture of the uh porches of the early uh that were around up until the early 20th century. Um you'll see a picture that's probably late 40s early 50s of the angle parking that I remember as my childhood. um when and that was what was removed to create what we see today as a Waverly place. So I I think our governing bodies over the years have seen every time when there needs to be a reconstruction Waverly place to see how it's serving the present but also how it needs to serve the future because whatever we do on Waverly Place is not just for today. It is for the next 30 to 50 years probably. And so we have to guess, you know, be very mindful of all the businesses that are there today, but also try to predict what we're building for for the future. And that's you'll see some of that addressed in the design. Um, and you'll also see how roads and downtowns can be viewed in a certain scale from vehicles to uh to pedestrian. and uh Lexi will take us take us through that shortly. So here's the meeting flow so you can uh plan accordingly. We'll have the presentation by Arterial who we hired to uh do design work uh on our unwaverly place. Once the presentation is completed, we will go to

a question period. And the way the reason I'm saying question is we're going to capture all the questions from the audience as you come up and ask a question and to keep things flowing and then close the questions and we'll go right to answers whether it's from our uh designers or uh otherwise. We also have our burough engineer here. So in case there is anything related to that, we will also hear he'll be available to answer questions. So after we go through the question and then the answer period, we will go into comment period. And unlike the stakeholder meeting, this will be a little bit more structured. It will be the standard method for comments in uh our council meetings, which means you can uh step up, make your comment. We ask you to try to keep your comments at three minutes, but uh we do give you a one minute grace and so you would be stopped at four minutes. So please plan your comments accordingly and then there'll be council discussion and that's more a discussion of what we've seen and what we might be seeing in the next steps. There will be no decision tonight. There will be a lot of information that we're hearing from you the the public. We'll be hearing again from our experts and from the council that will help guide the decision process. And then we will have another comment period which we have to have in every council meeting which is when you can comment on any topic. So if you came here by chance and found out there's a meeting going on and you want to com comment on something you'll you'll have that chance also. And then we'll have our adjournment. So uh with that I'd like to invite Lexi to come on up. She's going to be standing up here so she can see the screen and see the audience as she's uh presenting. Welcome.

Just doing a quick test. Can everyone hear me? Okay, great. Thank you, mayor, for the introduction and thank you all for taking the time to come out this evening. My name is Lexi Smaldon. I'm an urban designer at Arterial and project manager for this specific project. With me tonight, I have Jesse Summers, who's a landscape architect also at Arterial. We're a street design and urban design firm based in Montlair, so we're very local. Uh, and we like to focus on street design projects. We love the opportunity to work on streets like Waverly Place. And this project has been really enjoyable for us. So, I'll start with a brief introduction just to get us all on the same page. We'll first look at the limits of the project as well as the input that has been received thus far and then I'll take a step back and walk everyone through what our process is and the way that we approach street design. Then we'll quickly look at two project examples and then we'll focus back on Waverly Place. We'll be looking at the Waverly Place of the Past, the Waverly Place of today and the Waverly Place of the Future where we'll dig into our concepts. Here's a project boundary of the area that we've been studying, which is Waverly Place between Main Street and Kings Road, as well as the train line. Waverly Place is a commercial street that's home to several local businesses, as as you all know. So, feedback from the last stakeholder meeting was shared with our team, which we read through and have summarized on this slide. Many of the comments emphasize the desire to upgrade the aesthetics of the street, making it more attractive for all users. It was very clear that parking would like to be maintained. We would like to create and maintain the gathering spaces that are there with an increase on pedestrian emphasis and making sure that the Christmas tree continues to have a place of prominence. And the street needs to be balanced. There needs to be consideration for all users, whether it be vehicles, shoppers,

diners, etc. equal sidewalk widths on both sides, loading zones, and utility upgrades, which were um from the most recent stakeholder meeting that we had earlier this month. We like to think of streets like Waverly Place as vital public spaces that help give our small towns their identity. When we look at streets, we break them down into what we call priorities and performance. Priorities focus on the right-of-way configuration or how the street is laid out between buildings and performance are the detailed measures that we designers and landscape architects make to ensure quality and durability. So priority determines who is given the priority within the right of way and that's not for us to say. That should be up to you the community. We've used our conversations with the steering committee and stakeholders as the foundation of our solutions and recommendations that we're sharing here tonight. Performance is where we come into play. If you picture a street in Europe, you see a street that's been there for hundreds of years. Here, we're lucky if our streets last 5 to 10 years in some cases. So, we want to build streets that can withstand the test of time by using highquality and durable materials. We view priorities as a sliding scale. So, on the far right, you'll see car first streets. There's nothing wrong with a car first street. Some streets are designed for moving cars, and that's fine. Moving to the left, there's mobility first, which is where you start to provide space and amenities for other users like pedestrians, bicyclists, etc. All the way to the left is place first, where the street is a gathering place, but can still accommodate cars. So, we're going to look at a quick street example. This is not Waverly Place. This is just a sample that we like to use. So, right now, we're viewing a street that uh gives priority to cars or car first. We see two travel lanes on each side, parking on each side, and sidewalks. If we shift the lane to the left, uh, shift the arrow to the left a bit, we

can see how the design of the street shifts as we start to incorporate more users. We remove a travel lane in each direction, maintain the parking, and introduce a center median and bike lanes. Moving further to the left, we arrange the street so that the bike lanes are protected by the parking and the sidewalks become more generous. another step towards place first. And you can see the road is narrowed. There's less parking. The bikes become uh the bike lanes become a cycle track at the sidewalk level and the sidewalks are much wider. We also introduce a raised midblock crossing and provide more room for planted bumpouts. And finally, a place for a street. This example is all at the sidewalk level, which limits cars, but allows them to still pass through. People are the priority in this example and cars are secondary. The street feels more like a plaza with the outdoor cafe seating and overhead string lights. We've gone through the priorities, so now I'll quickly go through performance, which is more about the design of the street. Functionality is pretty straightforward. It's is the street functioning as it should? Is it serving all of the intended users? Arts and culture. Does the street reflect the unique character of the place? Does it give a nod to the past? Health in the environment. Does the street contribute positively to the environment through native street trees, tree diversity, storm water management, habitat, rain gardens, etc. Economic vitality. Many streets are home to businesses and we want to make sure that our work supports the local economy. Will the improvements to the street also support the businesses that are there? And finally, design quality. Is the street built to last? This is not about what the street looks like. Are the materials durable? Are the details paid attention to? If the street is being invested in, we want the burrow and the community to have the best return on investment possible.

So, we'll quickly to look at two real street examples, both of which are similar in scale to Waverly Place. First is South Park Street in Montlair. This uh was two travel lanes with angled parking and narrow sidewalks and was considered out of balance because it favored cars over people. And this is South Park Street today. After we pushed the arrow over to place first, we introduced a flush center median, changed the parking from angled to parallel, and used the remaining extra space to widen the sidewalks. Here you can see the flush center median, which was installed to discourage U-turns. We also introduced a flush midblock crossing so pedestrians could safely cross the street and it could also be programmed for events if desired. Here's another before image that focuses on the sidewalk. You can see it's pretty narrow and uninviting. With the widened sidewalks, we were able to introduce more trees and planting, and the brick planter walls on the left double as seating. We like to use highlight pavers at key places like corners and crossings and stick to concrete midblock with the highlight paver along the curb. We can see that shown here with the brick used as the highlight paver. Another view of the midblock crossing. We used ballers and a change in pavement to sign signal to cars to pay attention and watch for people crossing. The changes to the street really transformed South Park Street into a lively gathering place. Widened sidewalks allowed for dedicated space for outdoor dining. And the design of the street allows for the flexibility to be able to close the street for events. Here we see the street closed for a car show. And here we see the street closed for a street fair. Here's another example of a similar street. This one is not one of our

projects. This is Cample Avenue in Arlington, Virginia. From this aerial view, you can see it looks similar in structure to Waverly Place. The traffic is separated with a median. There's four rows of parallel parking, and there are corner bumpouts. The sidewalks are wide enough to include outdoor dining as well as street trees. There's a fountain installed in the center of the median, which can act as a gathering place or meeting point. And the design of the street allows for flexibility of closing the street for events similar to South Park Street in Montlair. Now that we've looked at a few examples, let's dive into Waverly Place. Streets are constantly evolving as uh as we march through time. And Waverly Place is no exception. Can you go back one? This first photo we'll look at is from 1932. We're looking at what is present day uh present day Madison Bagel, Golden Cleaners, and Madison TV. This is before the center median was installed, and we can see a band marching in what's probably a parade. Waverly Place has long been considered a place for gathering. Zooming out a touch and we can see that the parking on Waverly Place wasn't always how it is now. The street used to have angled parking and the median was not introduced yet at the point of this picture. But we can start to see a few islands coming in the middle to include lighting. And here we see Waverly Place on a typical day rather than during a parade. We still see the angled parking and we have this very long crosswalk in the foreground. You can see a car parking where the median is today and you can see people crossing the street midblock. Now, let's get into how Waverly Place looks and operates today. As the mayor mentioned, Waverly Place has a very wide crosssection as it is intended to be a town square. It's a retail street that has access to parking

through the alleys as well as access to Main Street. The clock plaza acts as a gathering space. There's outdoor dining. We have parallel parking and um access to the train station. For orientation, the rail line is on the bottom left and Main Street is on the top right. Waverly Place is a key connection between Main Street and Kings Road or Lincoln Place. And today we have a median that divides the travel lanes. So you can see how the cars are coming in and out of Waverly Place. But interestingly, Waverly Place also has its own internal circulation. The way the street is laid out actually encourages drivers to circle the street looking for parking. kind of like a parking lot. Looking at pedestrian circulation, people tend to be coming from Main Street, the train station, Burrow Hall, or the nearby parking lots. And people will often get out of their cars and go straight across the street between the cars. This is a safety issue that we don't want happening. The main gathering place is right off Main Street where the clock is. It has some seating, the James Madison bust and is partially protected by the planter walls. The main street end of the street has the clock plaza, while the King's Road end of the street has a train overpass. This makes Main Street feel like the front and the railroad tracks as the back. We would prefer both sides of the street to feel like a front and not have a feeling of having a back to Waverly Place. Now, since we all forgot what the street looks like when there's leaves on the trees, I'd like to quickly walk the block and point a few things out. To start, the curb the uh the curb to curb width between the median and the sidewalk is 38 ft with 8 ft of parking on either side, which means each travel lane is 22 ft wide. There's one section closer to Main Street where the roadway splits into two travel lanes where

there's a left only and a straight and right turn lane. The sidewalk widths get pretty limited with the furniture and dining on the street. There are corner bumpouts, which is good, but they're uninviting and they have limited amenities. Not all of the curb ramps are ADA compliant. There are long crossing distances that can make it difficult for some to cross the street. The train tracks are a physical and visual barrier and act as an uninviting gateway to the other side of town. The center median has a pedestrian plaza at the main street end. But other than the plaza, the center median is pretty narrow and it has obstructions that limit pedestrian space. And the existing pavers are heaving and rolling in some locations. So based on the feedback that we've heard and the goals that have been set, we want to slide the scale from a car first street to a more balanced block that sits somewhere in between place first and mobility first. When we put all of this information together, we end up with the following seven goals. Improve the overall pedestrian experience on Waverly Place. Enhance the aesthetic so that they better represent downtown Madison today. Allow for increased outdoor dining opportunities where desired by moving existing outdoor dining from the street to the sidewalk. Improve the tree canopy. Allow for a flexible balanced design to accommodate a variety of uses. Support existing businesses and attract new ones while recognizing the historic nature of the commercial district and upgrade and improve existing infrastructure, drainage, and burrow telecommunications network. So we'll begin introducing the concept by starting with how the street is organized. Looking at the current conditions, we

have those 22 foot wide single travel lanes, 10 to 12t sidewalks, a 6' wide median, limited gathering spaces, and four rows of 8ft wide parallel parking, which totals to 32 parking spaces, though two of those are used for outdoor dining. As you exit Main Street, there is also a left only turn lane and a through right only lane, which is also misaligned with Central Avenue. In the proposed condition, the southeast sidewalk is maintained at about 12 ft wide, while the northwest sidewalk is widened to about 15 ft. The reason they aren't symmetrical is because of existing utilities. The median is also widened from 6 ft to 12 ft wide, making it more usable. We were able to widen the sidewalk and median by reducing the travel lane width to 16 ft. A typical travel lane is 10 to 12 ft wide. This will rebalance the crosssection by keeping it accessible to vehicles but more friendly for pedestrians. Some specific safety points I'd like to emphasize are that pulling the median through the crosswalk to create a pedestrian refuge and separate more uh where possible from traffic. This is beneficial to protect pedestrians from the internal vehicular circulation that we pointed out earlier. This also shortens the crossing distances. Widening the median makes pedestrian movement safer and more comfortable by giving pedestrians a place to walk before crossing. And we have a midblock crossing. Can you go back? Before we leave, I want to make sure we talk about parking. This plan shows 31 parking spaces with room for outdoor dining on the sidewalks. So there's no need to take any spaces. So effectively the plan has one more parking space than the current condition when the outdoor dining is open. The potential of elimination of the two lanes exiting Waverly Place gains on street spaces. This will require a traffic study which

will be part of the next phase of work. The alignment of the intersection will also be studied in more detail. Now, let's get into what this all will look like. I won't spend a lot of time on this slide, but what we'd like to communicate is that the Burrow of Madison is unique in its own way. There's a narrative through the history of the place, the stories that play out through its infrastructure and architecture that is worth recognizing in the materials that are selected, and the finishes that are ultimately chosen. Our approach to the materials on the ground plane are simple. tinted concrete with silica carbide for texture, granite sets for highlight areas, and some engraved granite bands. At this level, it's also very conceptual. So, as the project moves forward, this will be honed in. The furnishings pallet util utilizes some of the furniture already being used in the burrow and supplementing it with some raised planters and stone seating, which is a way of recognizing the old stepping stones from the days before cars where people got around on horse and carriage. Now, we've put all this together and I'll walk you through the plan and then several different perspective renderings that will help communicate the intent. So, this is a plan view. So, we have the train tracks on the left and Main Street on the right. We're showing the widened sidewalks that allow for outdoor dining, which happens at the middle near the midblock crossing. We have crosswalks that go through the median creating the pedestrian refuge islands and uh also additional seating area gained at the corner of Lincoln Place. The midwalk crossing is flush with a change in material signaling to vehicles that people will be crossing. This is a traffic calming measure. String lights going across the street. Designated loading zones, one on Waverly Place and one on Kings Road. The one on Waverly Place has been uh relocated from the

last meeting when it was shown on u shown on Main Street. And uh public art on the New Jersey Transit overpass along with upgraded lighting and a widened median that gives additional space for seating and temporary displays such as the Christmas tree. This view is taken from the northwest side of the street. Looking towards the train overpass with the pedestrian alley to the right, we can see the new furniture, banners on the street lights, planting the midblock crossing, potential art treatment to the overpass, a concrete parking lane, and granite set highlights. Standing in the median with Main Street to our back, we see the widen median, the banner poles, furniture, and raised planters to the right and left. Here is a bird's eye view of the aerial looking towards Main Street with Lincoln place just underneath. You can see the elements that we've been highlighting and also wanted to note the gateway wall and signage that can work on both ends of the median providing a frontage on both ends. Thank you again for your time this evening. And with that, I'll turn it back over to the mayor.

Thank Thank you, Lesie. Great presentation. And uh you can sit down, relax a little bit, but I have a feeling you'll be stepping right back up there shortly for some. So um so there's the the presentation and I I think some of you will probably kind of love it and some of you probably kind of dislike it um or like elements of it and uh so we appreciate that but and also appreciate you've looked at this with an open mind. Um, and our first phase is going to be the question phase. And I'm going to ask uh since I try to keep up with all the notes, but I'll ask others to try to keep track of these questions because as I said, we we're going to capture these questions and then um answer them all together. When you come up to the lect turn, state your name and uh town and ask your question. Remember, time for comments will be coming later. So, please uh if you have have to have a a little setup for a question, that's okay, but keep it short um because we want to get questions in there. Um with for this section, if you sit down and think of another question, you can get back in line again. When we come to the comment period, it will be limited to one one comment uh period per person. But uh if you think of a second question, that is fine after you sit down. And um with that, anyone wishing to uh ask questions, please sec step up to lectern and keep us moving. You can line up behind them. Um and we'll capture the questions and it gets to the answer period.

Joe, thank you, Mayor Connley. Thank you, council. Uh my family's been in business in Madison for 75. Name in town. Uh my name is Joseph Falco. Thank you.

Of course, I'm from Madison. Uh so we've been in that town for 75 years. Um my question is you know there are two uh because they talked about ADA um compliant uh and as the road goes down Waverly Place towards Main Street. There are two buildings, one occupied by Chase and the other one now occupied by Form Coffee where there's a step up. It's not ADA compliant. And of course those buildings, you know, the one on the corner which is my building is over 50ome years old. So it's grandfathered, but it's it's just not right for people uh who have disabilities. Uh we have often picked up wheelchairs and brought them in and we had a temporary ramp. Uh but not always safe. Uh so I'm hoping something could be done with that for those two buildings. It's

you know it's just a terrible thing when we redid it uh maybe 30 years ago that wasn't taken in consideration.

Question will be and um is ADA compliance related to access to the buildings as opposed to the crosswalks. Okay. Thank you. We capture that. We'll any other other questions? Please step forward. Hi, my name is Paul Gallico. I'm a co- business owner on 20 Waverly Place. And the question I have is relative to the traffic study and I understand it hasn't been conducted yet, but have has criteria been established to determine what the results of that study how how the results of that study will change change the design. Thank you.

Hello, Jim Finelli, 42 Dean Street, Madison. My question, I've worked for the water department for 40 years. I'm wondering, uh, I'm sure maybe Dennis can answer this, but as far as the utility upgrades, what are you planning on doing as far as utility upgrades to each building? The last building we had that was renovated where the Cresmon Savings Bank was had to put a uh a 4 inch line in for a fire suppression system. Are you going to put that into each building before you go ahead and spend this kind of money on the roads? I I would recommend doing every service into every building and that's on the water side. I imagine taking care of the electric, putting conduits in for new electric, upgraded electric for whatever your vision is of seeing what Waverly Place is going to become. I I think this is going to be an astronomical amount of money to spend. Um, that's my my question for now.

Thank other questions. Please step forward. My name's uh Robert Madara, Wayne Boulevard. Uh I guess in keeping with the last question, do we get any idea of what this is going to cost and what impact it will have on our taxes? And the second question is I I I couldn't hear everything that the presenter was saying, but uh is there going to be another light in the middle of the block? It's a short block. Well, how do you control the crossings from for the pedestrians? I don't really see a need for another crosswalk in such a short uh uh distance from the two existing crosswalks. But if but if pedestrians are going to cross, there has to be a control. And if there's a third control each corner and and in the middle, people are just going to come down and go on to either the first street west or the first street east uh of of uh this street. And I I can see that causing more congestion.

So question is related to u control on the crosswalk and also the cost and the impact on taxes. Absolutely. Thank you. He's step forward. Yeah, just come on up. Um, we we do have we do need you to come up to the lectern so we can capture it on the microphone for the recording and for those watching at home.

Chip Woodbury live in Madison. I just have a question. I currently enjoy the left turn lane getting on to Main Street and I'm confused whether we're still going to have that or not. If you have a quick Yeah, Jerry, come on. Come on up. Jerry Harmon, I've worked on Main Street in our store for 50 years. I have couple one or two comments, but mostly questions.

Just just the questions, Al, and then come back for the comments.

Okay. Why did the designer show brick accents which looked very nice on the sidewalks at the beginning of the show but later in the slides they weren't there and when they showed the materials that were going to be used bricks were not included. Um what are we getting? Uh it would seem to me that double parking, especially going towards the railroad tracks, would just tie up traffic all through town. Uh you get a stalled car, you get a food service with a pickup or a delivery. Speaking of delivery, uh there was uh questions about where delivery zones for trucks would be. Uh having spoken to several because I see them during the day. Uh they're really upset and opposed to everything and I can't blame them.

So questions now. Jerry, you can come back for the comments. Yep. Uh, has anybody addressed fire trucks coming from the fire department to make a turn onto Waverly with the bulged corner that is there. Um, it seems like it's going to be a very roundabout uh project to be able to do that. Um, I don't know whether you want to send them through Prospect or what the story is going to be, but I I only see a problem there. I didn't see zebra stripes between the parallel parking spaces in the slides. Is that how we're going to have the same number of parking spaces by having them tighter um and perhaps more accidents to go along with it? Uh, and I don't know why the bulged corners, they look nice from above. Uh, I don't know what the practice is, especially if you're coming Lincoln Place and making a right onto Waverly. Why not build out the other corner instead so that people coming down the steps from the trains have better access to wait for somebody to pick them up or something like that without it uh getting traffic. Thank you. So, uh, capturing those, we've got, um, related to the the brick accents that were shown, you know, what what what are the proposed finishes? Uh, double parking, what happens? Have we've had a review by the fire department and what and access with trucks? Are the um in between um every other parking spot

boxes still there? And why the bumpouts and uh with the locations? Hi, Dan Dibbyasi 42 Bernett Road lifelong resident. Um, my question is being a employee of the DPW, where's the drainage going to come from? Because that is one of the number one cause, especially with this last year winter where we had freezing for almost three weeks. It heaves all the pavers. So, if there's nowhere for the water to go, there's nowhere to fix that problem. So you need drainage and at the closest spot either the corner of Greenwood or trying to cut across to the coverts on central. So that would be a lot of drainage to get to the corner to the center of town.

Thank you. Question was related to storm water management. How we how we getting the water from point A to point B. Any other questions? Uh Frank Kakuza, five Waverly Place. Um just a question. I noticed you moved the the loading zone. You said one was going to be on Kings. How many spots will that occupy uh that are parking spots? Loss of parking due to uh voting zones.

Hi, Joe Catz Pine Avenue. Um I have a quick question about the actually my overall question is about the um the tree canopy. Um, one of the questions that made me think about that was when they redid the pavers on Main Street, however many 20 years ago, I'm not even sure if it's that long ago, but they took out a lot of big trees and I realize trees are are have a life cycle as well, but I'll be curious to see what the tree canopy plan is. I also wanted to echo Paul's sentiments about the traffic feasibility and when is that taking place and how would that impact the overall scope of the plan? So reinforcing the traffic study question and plans on tree canopy. Hello Mayor. Hello team. Tom Harland Pis uh 27 Pomoy Road. Uh, one question I have for consideration of narrowing the traffic on either side since there is a a median in the middle. It would be very challenging if there is a situation where you have to get an emergency vehicle. Any other street in town doesn't have a median. So, if you were on Main Street, which we use as an example very often, we say, "Well, people deal with the way Main Street is where you just pull into your parking spot and or you keep going." But you can always use the eastbound or westbound if there's an emergency. Somebody's stuck in one side. But if you're in Waverly Place and there's a median, unless there's a way to drive over the median. Uh the other question is that if we were to remove that uh east to west 31 foot wide crosswalk and we keep the parking as it is now without the the yellow marked spaces for quick pull-in, we

would probably add a couple more spots and 31 ft of space on each side on four sides actually. So, if we want to gain some parking at least and we do go with the sidewalk widening, maybe that's a consideration. I would like to know what the architect's perspective is or your perspective on people actually needing to have that center crosswalk to go from either side of the west or the east side in lie of just going to the crosswalks on Main Street or the crosswalk on Lincoln Place. Is that really adding any safety to the area? Uh, and when we do that traffic study, I guess we're going to take into consideration distracted drivers who are coming up the block and now there's people pushing a stroller stroller in this uh crossing area where they think it's probably pretty safe, but you still have cars like somebody else mentioned too, just to be concerned about, you know, that that particular uh danger dangerous area. Thanks, Mayor. And just for the record, Tom, you're just speaking as a property owner,

correct? Okay. Thank you. Sorry. So, uh, emergency vehicles with the median, uh, how many spots could be gained if we took out the midblock crosswalk. Uh, covering some of the thoughts behind the advantage of the mid midblock crosswalk and are there should we have safety concerns about the existence of that crosswalk, the emergency that that was? Any other questions? Yep. No problem, man. Take your time.

Hi, my name is Ann Delena. I live at 37 West Lane in Madison and my husband and I own property on Waverly Place on both sides of the street. What I'm concerned about, and I hadn't quite maybe it's been under discussion, I didn't quite understand what was being said this evening. I'm really concerned about the traffic that I was one of the things I understood from this this change is that you're going to be reducing the lanes that only one lane of traffic can go through on each side of the street. Um and instead of now there's two lanes of traffic that can go through which seems to be working very nicely for wing place for many many years and seems to be that that would be the optimum thing and I don't know if that has changed in some of the plans that have been made. I didn't quite understand that for the presentation tonight. So that was my concern. I would like to see it retained at two lanes.

Just questions right now. So, okay. So, question is related to the reduction of the travel lane.

Any other questions? Please step on forward. Yep. Don't don't be bashful. You just uh step on up. Yeah, again this is a qu question question period. We'll we'll be getting to comments shortly, but this is questions. So John,

I'm uh John Solu. I'm a property owner on Main Street and as part of this project um just wanted to bring up the issue again uh about the infrastructure and the my question is are we addressing the issue of high-speed internet for some of the century old buildings not just the you know the power the electricity the water and it was good that they brought up our underground services but along with that to high feed internet that I think is important to keep the vitality of the downtown going through the next century. And um so question number two is um last time we undertook this kind of a project, it involved the entire uh historic district uh where the sidewalks were changed from all the way out from Park Avenue all the way down to the other end of town down to Prospect. Sidewalks were redone, re uh rearranged. And um I remember uh one of our council members religiously every day met with the contractor in the field to make sure that it was executed properly and um Jigs did an excellent job of keeping his eye on the project and making sure it was done properly. So my question is, will the project extend to make a uniform downtown district sidewalk and uh and has that cost been addressed in this uh in this study?

Thank you, John. Jerry. Hello, Mayor and Council. Uh Jerry Manel, One Highland, property owner 3 Waverly. Uh my question is situational. So with a single lane traffic lane coming off a main street, if a fire truck, I would imagine that's the way it's going to enter left turn off of Maine from the firehouse and we are very blessed to have a paid fire department because not many towns do and they are fantastic. Just just questions now, Jerry. Thank you. We we appreciate the appreciation of the fire department though. We'll relay that to

So my question is situational. So the first fire truck or the first police car for a call at the restaurant where the first ambulance pulls up and then four cars pull behind it and actually six cars can pull behind them. In that situation, what is the officer or the fireman going to do with the cars behind them that other emergency vehicles need to get in desperately for backup support and maybe even protocol to fight a fire? They need a second truck there. Thanks, Jerry. So, basically, um, not just the movement of the trucks, but once they're there, what happens with the traffic that could back up behind, uh, the incident? Yep. Any other questions? Please step forward. Mayor Joseph Falco the last meeting which was I think in July three years ago time flies doesn't it? Uh it was suggested and I believe it was u agreed upon to quote unquote cone off or tape off those areas. Uh especially on a Saturday, a busy Saturday. We're not going to be able to do it during holidays, which are key times of course for business of all kinds, but we could certainly do it on a weekday like a Tuesday, Wednesday, and a Saturday because I would like to see and I think everyone here resident business

owners, let's see, just a question. Let's Yeah, let's see what we're doing because it hasn't been done to date. Thank you. Please.

Thank you, Joe. Yep. So, can we do a test run with the new lane lane width proposed lane width? Any other questions? Please step forward. Going once, going twice. All right, question period is closed. We will shift to answers or uh and uh with the qualifier, we've um we may not have all the answers. we will answer what we can and others may be um coming up in next steps or may have to just uh come back up again. So uh Lexi maybe if you you can stand there or come back up here again. We'll start with the um ADA um entrances the um basically what you covered was the fact really at crosswalks and with the project itself there we do do not contemplate uh ADA uh work to the buildings.

Yeah, that has not been looked at to date. So, um, the steps are existing and there's challenges if you wanted to raise the sidewalk to include the step and then still have the ramp getting down to the street. So, we that that will be part of the next phase. We'll see. We'll get our civil engineers involved and see what we can do with the the grading and the slope of the road to make that work. Certainly, if um businesses were contemplating ADA improvements, it would be the time to it would be coordinated.

Yes. um the uh traffic study and impact on design. Um and uh Lexi, you can fill in the blanks here. We we did uh with um interns as far as um turnovers in in parallel parking. We've done counts and we have a full study on the the parking uh demands on how quickly um spots turn over. the next step on a uh and Arterial also uh did observations not a formal parking study but the one we've talked about in particular would be if there would be a single lane going north which would have still have the left turn arrow we would have to have a parking study and as with a state highway that that would still have to be reviewed by DOT so that is the next steps anything else besides that uh okay um utility upgrades and Jim Savage maybe can fill in the blanks with this, but we um as far as not just the uh the mains going up and down um Waverly, have we looked at the laterals that are going into the buildings, the possibility of buildings needing sprinklers and and so on. Um yep. Um on that question, Jim, so if the scope is to upgrade the water lines, which we are estimating at 100 years old, um and the sanitary line, which isn't too extensive, it comes from the uh Lincoln Place side and heads toward Main Street. All of those tie-ins to the existing old buildings at Waverly would have to be coordinated with that scope of work. So it would actually be quite challenging for every single building for the contractor to coordinate those tie-ins. But if the water lines and sanitary lines were being upgraded in addition to the electrical infrastructure, those three main utilities would be critical in coordinating with the buildings and the tenants. There would be a electrical shut off if we did that scope. There'd

be a temporary water shut off, etc. So, it would be quite complicated when we're in the ground, but that would have to all be coordinated if that becomes the scope of work. So I agree that um the proper tie-ins should be done especially water sanitary and if we do upgrade the electrical there um but we would have to define that scope if the project includes that which would be quite an investment. So hopefully that answers that question

and um the the cost and cover and impact on um um residents tax- wise. This is uh we'd be funded through our um capital uh budget. Uh we have been reserving money and have put money aside to to cover it. uh if appropriate, we'd also be and we actually had a grant from the state uh to support the project. It we had to let it lapse because we were not ready to move forward. So, we'd go back to get the state grant to keep the uh project costs down and the impact on uh stakeholders or taxpayers at a minimum. Uh to keep in mind that even if there was no redesign, the storm water work has to be done, the sidewalk work has to be done, the trees have to be replaced. So there's going to be a cost and so it's going to be the you know and we will present have a full presentation if we whatever design we move forward with what the uh costs are. Um and any if I say anything Lexi that needs some more background just go ahead and hop on up. The question there was another question about is there a uh traffic control at the midblock crosswalk. It would not have a uh traffic. It's not imagined, but we certainly would have the ability to have the activated uh lights if we wanted that we have put in many intersections. Um, and but one of the advantages of midblock crosswalk is it hopefully encourages people to do it in one of three locations instead of the current almost infinite locations that they're crossing at multiple spots. Um, yep. Just one note that one of the crosswalks today isn't controlled. The one at the Lincoln

train trestle end is, for lack of a better term, a free-for-all. Um, so you just, you know, look both ways and cross. Um, and that is what I think has been contemplated here for this midblock experience as well with with cars slowing down as they have to kind of cross the table

and um which also uh there was a question about some of the thought behind the bumpouts and one of the things that bumpouts do and this is why we have them on Green Avenue, Prospect Street and other places around town is it reduces the time that a pedestrian or the distance that the pedestrian pedestrian is in AC in the traffic lane. Um, what it also does is it gives a better stop vision for a car that is turning because they are bumped out past the parked cars as opposed to if you're like me trying to pull out on um Britain from Britain onto Central Avenue during school time and you have the parked cars, there is no sight distance. Um, but if there's a bumpout, you have that sight distance. So that's kind of the thought behind why you put bumpouts in, reducing that pavement time and the uh the vulnerability of any pedestrian. The uh brick accents that were shown, those were um just an example. We do do not anticipate that's the the brick accents. There might be other uh type of accents for those that have been here a long time. We are not bringing back the diamond bricks of the 1970s. So, uh, those are not coming back, but, uh, you know, we we looking at finishes that truly make Waverly Place a centerpiece for Madison, but have to be dur have to be durable and work for us in the long term. Um, what about the the double parking? the um you know technically right now Waverly is only two lanes legally at the interse intersection going north where you have the left turn lane it is it is basically a one lane either way that said we all recognize that double parking is possible not legal it is possible um and if if you

have they squeeze the lanes the illegal double parking disappears um just as people don't double park on Main Street because you can't do it. People know you just can't do it there. So, that's the uh related to double double parking. Any other Okay. Um concern about uh emergency vehicles and fire. So, the fire department police have uh reviewed the proposed plan and are coupled with it. I certainly I'm going to jump ahead to Jerry's question related to uh backups uh because you you will have if if an ambulance is stopped there there's no traffic is moving you know making sure they've reviewed that also. So uh we'll we'll bring that up with them. Next question was a bumpouts and so we covered that. Um questions about storm water management. Um, a lot of this project, as I said at the beginning, is about storm water management. And that includes uh sidewalk design to get the water off the sidewalks and to the catch basins that really don't exist today and from the catch basins to the um the storm water mains that go go down the street. Um we have not done the detailed engineering because that that happens once we have a finished pro a agreed upon project which we don't have yet. So that's more to come. Uh Jim, anything to add with that or is that pretty much

I think that's okay. Thank uh loss of parking um due to the um loading zones. Lexi, can you uh so we we move that one I we assume that that one loading zone is more than one parking spot. Correct. Correct. Yeah. So so what what is the loss of parking with you know no matter where the two loading zones are? How many spots do we lose? You lose two spaces per loading zone. But um the method that we are going to try to approach and we'll have to address this in the traffic study is uh whether or not the loading zones can be timed. So at certain times of day they're loading zones and then when that time is over then they are regular parking spaces.

Yep. We have that some locations already. So time of So if you have the loading zones we'd have a time time of day. Tree canopy the this will be um the replacement trees will be approved by the shade tree um management board and uh they are anxious to get the more appropriate tree in our downtown there. uh emergency vehicles with a median. Um so uh and that is the the concept that uh the median is a a hard line recognizing on main street a yellow double yellow line is a soft line. If emergency vehicle comes in they can get around there. Uh we will review that with um our fire department and police department as to uh any issues but they they have they they have considered the fact that is a hard stop literally in the middle of the road there. Um, how many spots could be gained if we uh eliminated the crosswalks, the midblock crosswalk? It can.

Sure. A typical parking space is 22 feet. So, the 31 ft uh midblock crossing will only gain you one more space on each side. So, that would be four more spaces. Um, we talked a little bit about the safety issues with the mid mid block. Um, it would be, you know, standing out. We could always add the activated light. Um, and as uh, Councilman Range already pointed out, we have a uncontrolled crosswalk at one location and it's it happens at multiple locations. Um, reduction of the travel lane. Yep. We're still Yeah, we have done this. We'll be looking more at the uh traffic study and the uh impact there. I think we've covered everything on the traffic lane. Anyone remember anything we need to cover? And the um it also should be noted that uh narrower lanes are trafficcoming in itself. highspeed internet and we're pretty much committed to make sure we we look at the infrastructure above and below that's there today and the in infrastructure that we need to have there for tomorrow as I said at the beginning uh dig once pave oh dig yeah dig once and only pave once so that's yeah me we're going to measure at least twice but uh we're going to dig and pave only once each so um we will certainly look look at that

um and we we want to have uh you appropriate lighting in downtown uh connections for possible uh sound systems, you know, what whatever might be necessary to again make this a a core of the community. So that may uh go hand in hand with a high speed. Um all right, now I've gotten to the point where I can't read what I wrote. How will the project go related to sidewalks? Anyone mayor, that's Thank you.

Okay. So, so right now, um, thank you for the recall on that one. Um, there is not a plan immediately to do the sidewalks through the rest of the downtown, but we know it must be done. As I said at the beginning, whatever the materials are we decide on Waverly Place will become the materials for the rest of downtown. I you know it's going to be up to future um um budgets and all that. My guess is it's going to be a phased approach. Uh the other thing we've done is when there is a infill reconstruction that we ask them to match what we come up with. So, there's a, for example, a uh new building going up on Central Avenue where the three older buildings will be coming down and uh the possibility of uh having them put in the new new sidewalk that we decide on when they get to that point and it's on their dime. Um what happens if there's a backup to e related to emergency uh vehicles? Um we can we'll discuss that more with our uh public safety team as to uh not not just can they get through which they certainly reviewed but uh what happens uh how do they manage when the traffic is comes to a standstill because of uh an emergency vehicle there.

Can I just just because I've had this conversation with Chief Wickman a couple of times in several of the meetings. Both uh Captain Longo and uh Chief Wickman have both been closely involved in this project project and they are both well aware of um how to manage a scene and recognize that frankly even today. um if they pulled a large apparatus into the existing street, nobody else would be getting around if there were cars parked in the parallel parking spaces or the boardwalk out for outdoor dining or what have you. So, um they're certainly aware that there's an impact, but it's in some ways dimminimous uh compared to what the real world presents them right now today. So that's been extensive conversations we've had around that.

Yeah, certainly good point. Fire truck on Waverly Place today, shutting it down. Yeah.

Uh and the question is, and we talked about this uh about doing a test run. Um it was suggested and we said we maybe we could do it. Um it would be difficult to do but we can certainly discuss it and and the idea would be to uh you know possibly put barricades in where the uh new curbs would be. Um the challenge is is how do you handle the parking because now it's squeezed out and we don't you stripe it or whatever. But uh we'll we'll take that into consideration because again we want to dig once, pave once and get it right. So good question. So that's all the questions and so now we will Yep.

the zebra striping between par between uh the pull in boxes are are still contemplated to be in there.

So those are the again the Thank you for catching that. Um every other spot we have a um a little box that makes it easier to pull in. They are more you know with um cars these days it is a little easier to parallel park. I've gotten a whole lot better with my rear camera than I did a year ago with a car without one. Um, but we're we're not used to the left turn parallel parking. So, they they certainly any the spots along the median really it's key to maintain those boxes and so we do have those in the plan to stay there. Okay, we covered all the questions. Thank you for the help on on those. we will move to comment period and this is when you may again we'll we'll have a second comment period. This is when you may comment on Waverly Place. So if you as I said before happen to come in here by chance so you you can have a chance to comment on anything else shortly. When you come up state your name and town try to keep your comments to three minutes but we will give you a one minute grace period. So anyone wishing to comment please step forward. Jerry uh Jerry Manton one Highland uh three Waverly owner. Um just in regard to your the comment about the fire truck. Right now if you double park a firet truck like a double park car in front of the cupcake shop pick a store cars can get around that car. they can get around until the officer gets there to block off Waverly. Um, I've been over 200 calls on Waverly Place with firet trucks and emergency vehicles throughout my career and just witnessed the other day emergency vehicle in front of the barber shop and cars were very easily getting around that car until the second officer got there. Um, I would

like to request from the council to run a demo on this project. Um, I don't think the project's that bad, but I think investing this much money at the taxpayer money. Um, and obviously Waverly Place needs some new life, nobody disagrees with that, but I would request verbally right now. I spoke to a lot of business owners, basically all of them, a lot of tenants and property owners. It's nothing to set up a demo. Nothing at all. I I actually wrote it right here. You close the street at 5:00 a.m. Four DPW guys. You got two line planers. You black everything out. You set up the parking spaces you want with and you bump out cones of the new length of the sidewalk bumped out and you form the single lane and you let it run. Let's let it run. Let's see what it does. I mean, throughout my career, we made mistakes with flashlights at the police department. We'd buy 25 flashlights. All of a sudden, nobody likes them. We did the same thing with holsters. We bought 20 holsters. You could get the gun out of the holster. So, we switched to trying one thing or one piece of equipment including light bars to to evaluate uh because all of that stuff is taxpayer money. So, I challenge and request from the council to run a demo. Run a demo on a Saturday morning. Let's set it up and let's see how it runs. It it may be in perfectly run. You may say, "Wow, this is really good. There's a lot of room for sidewalk." or it may be really bad, but you're not going to know until you run it. And I think to run it, I mean, the is minimum amount of money, some overtime, some paint, and by 2:00, you shut it back down and put everything back. Pick up the cones, repaint the parking spaces, and let's see, let the stakeholders, the taxpayers, the council members, the fire department, the police department, the architect, let's let's see how it goes. I don't think it's that

much of a request. I think it's a low dollar request and would appreciate if you consider it. Thank you, J.

Anyone else wishing to comment, please step forward. Frank Kakuza, five Waverly Place uh property owner and owner of Suburban Shoes. Uh this is my second time seeing this and It's a lot to take in. Uh there's a lot at stake here. So, but first I want to be very clear that I support the improvements to Waverly Place. The upgraded sidewalks, the new trees, better drainage, improved lighting, modernized infrastructure, and all are positive changes. But these enhances can make our street more attractive, more pedestrian friendly while preserving the charm of our downtown. However, I do have concerns about other aspects of the proposal. Reducing Waverly Place to a single lane of traffic, significantly widening the sidewalks, and eliminating parking may create unintended consequences for the small businesses that rely on the street every day. For decades, Waverly Place has functioned as a critical access point for customers making quick stops, deliveries, service vehicles, and the current layout allows traffic to flow while accommodating these needs. And I often say um plea please hold applause because it's um obviously people appreciate applause but then the the one speaker that steps away and doesn't get it they they kind of feel that too. So I expect Yeah.

Welcome Tracy. Um, hi, my name is Tracy Walsh and I'm a new um, business owner at 20 Waverly Place. And I want to also say what the other two gentlemen were speaking about is the one lane um, turning the street into one lane. I was part of an ambulance EMT situation the other day. The ambulance had to stay in front of the store for 30 minutes. The traffic moved just effortlessly. My business unfortunately runs on time. Everything about my day is about time. And that street to move it to one lane will stunt that traffic flow like crazy. And I watch it all day. I wait for my clients to show up and I just can't even imagine one lane and how if there's a simple accident, a fender bender, a cop car, um it just will completely stunt it and then it'll cause a commotion from Main Street and all the other parallel perpendicular streets and then that will force my clients to park even further. therefore to then get tickets because it is a service that they have to stay for and it is a large concern of mine um to have that street go to one lane.

Thank you.

Please hold the applause, but Robert Mad Wayne Boulevard. Um, I still haven't heard any estimates on what this is going to cost and how we're going to pay for it. We just took a big hit because of the 178 million we borrowed, the bond issue, excuse me, from last year, right? We've got to pay that off. That's our debt. $178 million. Uh, I saw today that the uh board of education is looking for a 7% tax increase. Um, and they've gotten another 6% uh from the state this year. And I'm saying, you know, we're getting hit on every side. How is this going to are we going to need another bond issue? Um, I don't know. I haven't heard anything on that. And and I would say about the, you know, the I don't think those crosswalks are necessary. I said that before, but but I I've on more than one occasion intercepted a runaway little kid. you know, woman coming down with three kids and and and uh there's always that one that takes off. You can have somebody walking from the shoe store and going across the street. They're going to cross the street and the kid sees the candy store. It's got two or three kids. One of those kids may just take off. You can't rely on, you know, three year olds looking right and left before crossing a street. That just doesn't work. I have four kids myself and nine grandchildren. I know that from experience. Uh so we if there are going to be crosswalks, there has to be a very safe way for for families to cross that. You know, uh you can't take a chance with kids' lives. But I also would like to know how much it's going to cost and how we're going to pay for it.

Okay. We'll we'll touch on that after the comment period. Yep. Thank you. Others wishing to comment and reminder to uh sign your name and address on the uh clipboard. Um, and if you didn't do it before, just you can come up after the meeting and make sure we get capture that.

John Doe. John Doe. No, forgot where you live, right? Yeah. You know, it's terrible. Okay. Got to be a doctor. You'll never be able to read that. Don't count my time yet, mayor. Nope. Doesn't start until after the name and address. So, we you're fine.

Joseph Falco used to be called Delwood Delwood Park. Uh but property owner, business owner. Um I'm glad the name is Arterial because that road address the council.

I understand giving some reference biting my time. Uh because that is an artery between one side of town to the other. We know that now because of all the infrastructure that we discussed and many people did discuss. But that is the vital artery whether it's fire, it's police, water etc. So it's a special place that connects the town including this burough hall including the Presbyterian church, the Catholic church and they both have schools. So it's an important area. Uh I have with me uh studies that have been done. Uh my father was the uh chamber of commerce president and I sat in that role or stood in that role uh at one time myself. This is 1963. I have studies here done by the women league of voters. I have a study here done by Arteryion who uh did our consulting work to become on the state historic register and then onto the national historic register. I have um I have uh uh plans here going back um you know literally you know 60 years and what's the difference? The last meeting we had there's none of these. You see, it's like everything that was discussed tonight was discussed three years ago, but it's in the ether. So, I'm glad Miss Osborne is here, our great our our great clerk, and I'm glad things are being taped and and that our our mayor is taking notes because many of these things have been discussed. Now, with the internet, we may not have to uh you know, waste paper and recycle it, but all these things should be collected. Uh we had meetings the last time I I was the chair of the downtown development

commission. We ran it and we had separate meetings for the chamber of commerce, you know, electrical stuff, etc. And it it's just nice to get uh uh things down. Um the loading zones, it's not just for loading u you know whether it's you know vegetables or liquor and things like that. You know, the postal service police, state policeman told me this once. That's federal. They can park anywhere they want. And that vehicle is in the downtown six days a week, sometimes seven on special deliveries. So, you have that, you have UPS, you have Federal Express, etc., let alone these food services and things. It's a busy, busy place. And I've seen five or six trucks backed up and double parked. So sometimes the people that do the studying

one one minute, Joe.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Uh sometimes they're not around uh during these busy busy times, especially on a Saturday. Uh I hope that we're going to continue the historic lighting. the SIR preservation commission 25 years ago chose those particular stansions and I was happy that they're in many other places uh around Madison, but they're not on the corner of Maine and Waverly and that's the most important corner in Madison. So, I'd like to see that done. Uh and and the proper lighting and in closing, you can put the LED lighting on the ground now as well for crosswalks. I've seen that done. I I I wouldn't want to see all kinds of pedestrian signage and stuff in the middle of Waverly Place. I just saw that at St. Augustine, Florida, and it was terrible. Big big triangular signs and push buttons was walking, no walk, guys.

Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Anyone else wishing to comment, please step forward. Good evening, Lou. Um, first of all, I just want to say I I Well, first first you have to since you're no longer the chief, you have to actually state your name and

Lou D. Roza, uh, former fire chief and resident of 37 Lraine Road in Madison. I am in favor of improving um Waverly Place, but I'm not in favor of the proposal that's up here for a few reasons. Primarily with the narrowing of that to that single lane. Um it's been mentioned numerous times about the traffic backing up and and I agree 100% that's going to be a problem um when or if that should happen. But more importantly speaking, um, not for the fire department or on behalf of the fire department, but my experience with the fire department, um, our ladder truck has a jack spread of 14 feet 9 in. If I do the math correctly, that leaves us about 15 in or 7 and 12 in each side. Once that ladder truck is deployed, when we have a a large-scale incident on Main Street or even on Waverly Place, mutual aid is called and other aerials come in as well. When we had the fire on Chateau on above the bagel chateau years ago, we had three aerial trucks in operation. Our mutual aid aerial trucks run anywhere between 16 and 18 feet of jackspread. I don't know how that's going to work on a 16 foot wide roadway or work effectively or work safely for our firefighters and also for the residents that live there and protecting our downtown district. I also agree with what uh Jerry Manton said about a trial run, but my suggestion is you can't do it for a day or two. It's got to go for at least two weeks, if not a month, and it can't happen in July and August when Madison becomes a ghost town. it. The realistic time to do it is in September or May or June when school and everything is still active going around. So that's my uh my two cents worth or my three cents worth. Um so anyway, but it needs improvement. It definitely does, but I don't think it needs it to this degree. So anyone else wishing to comment, please step forward.

Thank you. Jim Finelli, 42 Dean Street, Madison. Uh, I will continue to push on the utilities. I think the utilities are something that you have to have before you go through the prettiness of Waverly Place. You have to have something set up of what's going to be done, what's going to be expected, what the burrow is going to do, what the burrow is not going to do. because once you do this, you're going to put a me a moratorium on the road that it can't be opened up, which is going to limit whoever buys the property or owns the property now and wants to improve it. So, all of that stuff should all be done before these plans are even set in place. Like Dan had said, as far as it the uh drainage goes, you're going to run a draining line to make the drainage work on Waverly Place, either across Main Street and all the way down to Elmer Street, or you're going to run all the way down past the diner, which is the first two places you're going to find drainage. So, those are those are a pretty hefty sum of money and work to be done. As far as widening it, I don't see I don't see I'm sorry, narrowing it. I don't see that being done at all. I think it's ridiculous to do. Anything something anytime something happens on either either side of that road, you're going to close that lane of traffic. What are you going to do when they decorate the Christmas tree? Close down Waverly Place. The bucket trucks have to get in the air and decorate the tree. You put one on each side of the road and you have no traffic at all in there anymore. No way to get through. we have any kind of in instance to fit fix water or anything else is going on, we can be on one lane and the traffic can still go around us. That's not going to happen this way. If you want to widen the sidewalks, take the trees and put them in the yellow sections. Put them in the little sections where you have between the cars, put a bump out there for the tree to be in. Your sidewalk will be bigger and you'll have unobstructed sidewalks and your trees will still be where you want the trees to be. But like the chief had said, you put the fire truck in there on a narrow road. Now he he has to precisely park that directly in the middle of the road and when he's going to a scene, worrying about everyone else shooting in and out around him, set the truck up. Now he has to worry about when he raises it, the canopies for the trees and the string lights we're going to put across the street, which I'm sure those will come right down. But just something to look

into. Thank you. See you, Jimmy. Oh, please hold the applause. Anyone else wishing to speak, please, Jerry? your time. Uh, and I hope that putting my name here is not part of my three minutes. Nope. Thank you. Uh, I think that Main Street namely name in town once again. Jerry, sorry.

All right. Jerry Harmon, Madison Photo Plus. I think that Main Street and Waverly Place traffic lights are inadequate for what's being planned. I think that you have to install or have the state install computerized lights that can judge the traffic that's coming from the next block and this corner instead of having just it timed can't compensate for that. that will help tremendously in opening up what you're doing. Um, I know we want to have outdoor space where people can meet. It is so rare that I see the benches and so forth occupied by the clock most any day. Um, I don't know where the demand for that is. I haven't seen it. Uh I heard mentioned that there would be certain time zones that sorry that deliveries could be made. You explain that to a trucker and a shipper. You pay the extra money to have the truck driver come back another day and deliver it. It's not going to fly. Um, I would also like to say that uh outdoor dining has certainly exploded since co as people are supposedly healthier and healthier. I'm glad to see that the demand is there. I would love to see the tables and chairs against the building which would make it certainly easier for people to navigate the street and possibly re uh and state parking at

the curb area number of tables doesn't have to change it's the locations and in closing u I was taught at an early age architects render ing never match hindsight. Thank you

again and please try to hold the applause. Paul

Paul Dailyaly uh Long View Avenue. This is my second Monday coming here in a row. I do I get a prize if I come again? All right. Uh I like a lot of things about this plan. The things I like in particular about it are the midblock crossing. Uh I think you see people crossing there all the time. That's indicates that's a good place to cross. That's why people are doing it. And rather than trying to force people to the edges, accommodate what people want to do. There's a reason why people want to cross there. Um also I like the bumpouts a lot. Uh Mayor Connley mentioned some good reasons for having bumpouts. It also makes the pedestrians waiting to cross more visible to the drivers. which is really important that they're not hidden behind a car or some other obstruction. Uh even you know that the uh signposts can be an obstruction sometimes. And the other um feature I really like is the uh raised crosswalk. Uh did I understand correctly that the midblock would be raised?

Uh no, there' be a bump out but uh not raised.

Well, then I'm going to say we should do some raised particularly the midblock uh because it would really uh calm the traffic down. Um, and the other point with regard to the traffic, you know, um, there's already a lot of traffic there. I don't cross at Waverly if I don't have to cross at Waverly. And I think more people will do that if they realize that there's more traffic on Waverly. It's just why would you go through Waverly? You can go through Prospector up at Green Avenue. It doesn't make a lot of sense. So, I don't think that's I think that would work itself out. So, um, you know, I think doing a test run is a great idea. I'd like to see it in practice, but uh I really do like some of those features that are in there already. Thank you.

Anyone else wishing to be heard? Please step forward.

Hi, I'm Anna Taliano. I live right up the street of Maple. I've lived in Madison for about 10 years. Um I'm um not a shop owner on Waverly. I spend a lot of time there and obviously right up the street. I can walk there in less like than fi in five minutes, but I have four kids in three different schools. And like most of the moms here, we're constantly in between things. I as nice as an idea as it is, I don't have time to leisurely walk down Waverly, come back, get my car, and go to pickup. So people stop on Waverly to get shoes, cupcakes, gifts, a cup of coffee, and need to get to point B, wherever they're going to get their kids. Um, so the idea of just having one lane of traffic, what do you do if you're no one can double park, but then if somebody's waiting to pull into a spot, what do you do? You just stop and then if there's a center crosswalk, the traffic's going to back up all the way. Um, it's going to be on the train tracks and on Main Street as well. So, I just wanted to I think many of the ideas are beautiful, the flowers, the um the new sidewalks, lighting, but I just wanted to um share the sentiment that most people are trying to get there back and forth quickly. Um so, if there's one lane of traffic, it's going to make it a lot more difficult.

Thank you. Mayor Council. Hello. Uh I'm John Morris at uh Bedford Court and I own a business at 71 Kings Road. It's been there quite a long time and I've been in town quite a long time. Uh sometimes I can't get out but I know a lot of things about town. uh like so many of us here tonight and I love the plan. I give it an A for effort, but I think we have to deal with the circumstance that Waverly Place isn't as big as we might think it is. Um it is basically uh a parking lot and it's a road. Uh number two, we can switch them back and forth. I think that's the case and I think that town mothers and fathers designed it that way because of the buildings and the stores and the merchants. So I think those two things come first and that has to be addressed. I think Jimmy Finelli's idea about the utilities makes perfect sense. That's something I'm not an expert on, but retail is more of my thing. If that can be considered again um wonderful. Uh, I think as a community we love um Waverly Place, but I think if we put too much into it, it'll be too much and it might even repel people. What I've noticed in my travels on Waverly Place is the trees and specifically the tree wells are too wide. Navigating um the sidewalk on the cupcake side, it can be very difficult. You might have only two feet to manage it. And I hope the future

plan takes in account that tree wells should be trimmer and we're going to get wider sidewalks, which is a wonderful thing that'll accommodate pedestrians and and dining, but I think those sidewalks have to be primarily about pedestrians and secondly about dining. I don't know if the middle island works well because I don't know if it's appetizing. I don't know if people want to sit in the middle of a of of a road like that. If that spirit could be transferred to somewhere else in the downtown, why maybe we take that middle island and trim it and leave that more for parking and for for for cars and delivery trucks especially. That's an important thing. That's an idea. Maybe move the trees into another location. So again, the street itself can breathe more. I'm not saying no trees. I'm just saying put the trees maybe somewhere else. So the street itself will be inviting. The architecture so inviting. You want to, you know, you want to accentuate that. I mean, for years we had shop Madison, love Madison, and what was that icon? It was the facade of the buildings on Waverly Place. So, I thank you for like a great plan, great thoughts, and especially for listening to us all tonight. This is just wonderful. I think working together, we'll we'll we'll get it right for for something that'll last forever. Thanks.

Anyone else wishing to be heard? Please step forward. Seeing none, I close this part of the meeting. We'll um have some uh council discussion and talk about the next steps. I I do want to thank thank everyone for commenting certainly um a lot of food for thought and that's why we have this meeting and um we've got a lot of there's a bit of homework to do. So, uh, ju just the we can't address all these comments because that's that's our homework to address these comments. But I do want to touch on the, uh, budget. It was 1.5 million that we have in the capital budget. What was the the state grant that we had to so 500 So, we uh had to let a $500,000 state grant uh go back to Trenton, which hurt us because we weren't ready, but certainly um we would be reapplying. So uh you can figure what and what we have to do in Madison is we appropriate 100% of a project. So if the project is 1.5 million we would appropriate 1.5 million but then when state money comes back we put $500,000 back into the uh in the coffers capital uh fund fund. Um certainly loud and clear the consistency about the concern about the uh narrowing and that's the discussion we need to have is I think arterial did a and Lexi did a great job of explaining the scale and wherever you are on the scale there are concessions you make one way or another. Obviously, if you go way to the place end, getting car from point point A to point B becomes more difficult. Putting going way back to the vehicle end, safety and a gathering place in the center of a downtown becomes almost

impossible. So those those are food for thought and the consistency and I've been talking about this from from the beginning is the difficult it it is a hard stop in the middle and I said at the beginning of the meeting having that meeting as opposed to a double yellow so we have to keep that in mind. The only other thing I want to address right now is there was a question about the um traffic uh signal upgrade and this is a chicken or the egg. the uh the egg is we have to make our that intersection ADA compliant before DOT will upgrade that the lighting there. But we have that in the works that DOT has promised there would be a smart lighting in there or smart traffic light. The other thing we've talked about for that is what is uh nicknamed the the barn dance where you go to a 100% pedestrian cross in all directions. And one of the reasons why that would be a prime location for that is the misalignment of Central Avenue with Waverly creates a someone comes out on Central takes a quick turn and all of a sudden they see a crosswalk that they didn't see before. So those are things we're working on and certainly you gave us a lot of uh homework to uh consider. So this is far from the end of the conversation. I've talked too much. So, I will let any comments from the council at this point if there's anything um start with Bob and then Eric.

Okay. Um well, first of all, you know, I walk Waverly Place just about every day. When my dog takes me out for a walk, that's where he likes to go, so I see a lot there. Um I've been to Montlair and I know that street that you're talking about, it's absolutely beautiful the way it came out. But I guess one thing I've learned over time is you don't always get everything you want when you want it. You know, um right now I look at Waverly Place and I agree that it's the heartbeat of Madison. You know, that that's the center of town, but it does need a freshening up. You know, I noticed some of the street lights, you know, they have black masking tape around the bases. The uh pavers are in bad shape, not only there, but all over town. So I think I would look at it as there are some things that you need to do now or should do now and other things that you can probably wait. You know the infrastructure is going to be a huge expense. I can only imagine that. Uh I think the pavers should be done because that's a trip hazard for people not only on Waverly Place but you know by the Museum of Early Trades and Crafts when I walk down that way they're breaking apart right now. Somebody trips and falls that's going to be pretty bad. Uh the trees. Yeah, that's got to happen you know. Um, you know, I don't know when you do that, but um, is that part of the main project? Is that part of the ladder project? I don't know.

Right now, it would be done with the reconstruction, the replacement trees. But my whole theory is there's some things that you should do now, the necessary things to refresh it a bit, you know, the easy stuff, the quick hits and fix the pavers, and then the other work you do later because this is going to be a huge tax burden on the, you know, for the residents of this town. You know, we're all getting hit with uh property tax increases, electric. I mean, it's not all our doing. I mean, it's just being thrown on us. We got to manage that. So, let's just get the ne necessary stuff done now. That's just my opinion and then work on the best way to do the other work later on. Eric,

thanks, mayor. Um, as as you mentioned, the traffic light upgrades come as a result of this project, but it is unfortunately a little bit of a chicken in the egg, and that was I think like the fourth week of my first term, and I'm now in my second year of my second term. So, uh, the wheels of state government move slowly. But, um, you know, one of I think the biggest takeaway from all of this is as we started to think about all of the things that had to happen at Waverly Place and Bob, to your point, some of them have to happen, right? in at some near-term future, there needs to be more than a maintenance program of, you know, whack-a-ole with broken pavers or up here upd. Um, the trees are in desperate need of replacement and some of the conversation about the tree wells. Frankly, the sidewalks have gotten smaller as the tree wells get bigger because we keep pulling out another set of pavers um to give the tree well more more room. So, there's some things that we certainly have to do no matter what scale of this project we undertake. But from the beginning, I think the biggest thing that at least for me, if we were going to undertake anything, whether that was, I'll use the term the code of paint reconstruction or a major redesign reconstruction, we had to ask all of the questions and we had to understand what all of the options were before we could say, "Yes, we want that. No, we don't want that. Oh my god, really? If we did that, it'll cost another half a million

dollars. That's nuts, right? Those are the conversations we need we needed to have and we are having today to the mayor's point because whatever we do at Waverly Place is going to be the Waverly Place we have for the next 30, 40, or 50 years. So, I don't want to say some of this is an exercise, but in some ways, some of this is an exercise. what what are the art of the possible and what should we and what should we not do and this is all part of that ongoing conversation so we can pin down at the end these are our musthaves you know what we don't have money to do these other things or this thing doesn't make sense um but you have to have experts like those at arterial to share with you some of those things um so we can move forward so I think this is a great next step. I appreciate everyone who's come out and shared their thoughts share and been part of the process whether it's tonight at a previous meeting. I know this has been a discussion at the DDC um and I imagine at chamber meetings as well. Um so you know the process continues. So thanks mayor.

Just quick uh we've been bringing a contractor in every post winter to work on the pavers. We've we so we'll be bringing the contractor in because obviously um there's as Bob pointed out some really bad spots with these pavers and so we'll be getting down there to reset and make them safer. Um or come John did you have a Deb? Sorry.

Thank you, mayor. Um so just a couple of uh things because this was actually on the docket when I was first elected to council with Austri Belly many years ago. Um, and I do appreciate the comments. There's some things I know I hadn't thought of. I want to be fully transparent. My ideal, and I know this is not going to happen in any stretch of the imagination, so I don't want people to think that I'm bringing this idea as a realistic one, would be to see that be an entirely pedestrian plaza. It doesn't make sense. I know it doesn't make sense, but that's what I would ideally like. For me, this is a a decent compromise. I'm hearing some legitimate concerns. Um, you know, I've been talking to uh Frank from Suburban, you know, lots about it when I was on council last time, but I want to say a couple of things. For me, the midblock crosswalk is 100% a necessity. The number of times you go to pull out of a spot and that kid, I don't know where the gentleman is that was said about the about the three-year-old, you know, I moved to town um in 200 or I came back to town in 2004. uh gave birth to twins and had a two-year-old at the time. So, I have done, you know, three kids under the age of five. Um, and I get it. Uh, change is hard. I And I know that. Um, just listen to anybody in a in a school system right now that's going through this budget nonsense. Um, there are going to be adjustments. For me, the argument about double parking is not the not the right argument. double parking shouldn't be happening and it's drives it's a pain in the neck as it is. Yes, you can go around them but it is a problem. Sometimes they block you know parking spots or somebody trying to get out but I will say is Lou still here D. Rosa the fire engine ladder that is something I had no idea about that the ladder width is that wide. So that's obviously definitely something we have

to go back and look at which is why we're doing these um you know formats now. I'm I'm going to be unpopular and I recognize that, but that's okay. Um, someone who's guilty of circling Waverly two to three times trying to find a parking space before I finally decide, you know what, I could already have been parked in where I'm going if I parked somewhere else. Everybody talks about a parking problem in Madison. And I'm not saying that on Waverly and even on Main Street it's not hard at times, but Kings Road and I know some of those spots seem to be fuller than they were um if you make the right onto Kings Road off of Waverly, but behind the parking behind the police station um I haven't done it. I think the first time around somebody did do it that the length of the Short Hills Mall is evidently more than what that distance is, but we don't see it that way. And I don't see it that way. I don't think of it that way. I'm like, I got to park over there, but it's raining and I got this or I've got the kids or whatever it is. But I think there's just some adjustments and if we don't ever make changes, it could be a problem. And then I'm just going to end with I learned a long time ago through PTA and all of the different things I've been involved in. If you've irritated both sides of the argument, you may have come up with the both the the best plan because nobody's 100% happy. So you compromised a little bit from here and a little bit from here. Um you know so uh that's just my two cents.

Thank other comments.

Thank you mayor. Um, so this is one of those hearings that reminds me very much of my time on the planning board where you hear multiple sides of an argument and you've got to put them put all the issues on the scale and try to balance them as best you can. Um, you know, I think it's a I think it's an interesting plan. I think uh it's it's idealistic in a lot of ways. You know, I think if if there wasn't a backstory and we didn't have to think about the practicalities of Waverly Place and how it works every day and how the business owners have to uh rely on the traffic flow and the landlords have to rely on the viability of owning a building on Waverly Place and attracting the right tenants, etc. Uh maybe it would be an easy decision and I think it's a beautiful plan. I can't say anything about that. uh I go back to the practical sense of it. I have struggled from the beginning with the idea of reducing Waverly Place to one lane of traffic and I think I will continue to struggle with that. I'll be interested to see a traffic study and you know get the results of that. So I mean I I will reserve a final opinion until I see that. But at this point I'm really hesitant on voting to narrow Waverly Place down. Uh that's one. Uh two, I think, you know, there were some points made about the infrastructure tonight and and to me that's table stakes. I mean, obviously, if we're going to rip up the road or do a a project of this scale, we better make sure that we've got it down right and that we're thinking about that's where I really think we need to be thinking about the future. Not only what our needs are today, but what are we going to need 25 and 30 years from now? as far as 25 and 30 years from now in terms of how Waverly Place operates that's one issue that I have to put on

the scale and when I think about that you know it's how do we operate in 2530 years how do we operate today how do we operate today in my mind has to win because we we are talking about the viability the income the livelihoods of people and and and I have to put that first that's from my perspective Um and then uh you know we have we I think Madison is a wonderful town for a lot of reasons. One reason is because over the years we've had people who work in Madison. They live in Madison. They stay in Madison. Tonight's a good example of that. We got a former senior member of the police department and fire chief here who are giving their opinions in in public session. Um, I would encourage us to listen to them and hopefully maybe we can get them together with the current folks in the public safety uh group here just to talk about that because I think there are some interesting issues that have arisen with that and and honestly a couple of those things were were issues that I was thinking about uh prior to them bringing them up. Um, I do think we we need to think about how public safety apparatus is going to flow through there. Um, we've certainly talked about it at nauseium uh with individual planning board hearings around projects in town and I think this one uh especially given the fact that Waverly Place uh could be categorized as a little bit of a tinder box because these are old buildings that don't they're not sprinklered. They don't have the benefits of, you know, newer buildings and things like that. Um so the fire department is going to be essential and speed's going to be essential down there. Um so that's important. And then just from the historic preservation standpoint, um, a couple things. We've got beautiful, very, very expensive, if I had to guess, granite curbing down there, which I would not want to see, uh, taken away and discarded. If we were going to do

anything with it, I think it should be reused, repurposed somehow. That stuff is really expensive and it's really good stuff. And that is probably more of a nod to historic Madison than I would even say the carriage step sort of uh uh benches that we're contemplating here. Uh and for those of you who don't know, there are carriage steps that are still in Madison. If you walk around, you'll see them. Um and then the idea of painting the railroad trestle at Waverly Place I is another thing that I I would not support. I think for a couple reasons. one, it would detract from this building as you look from Waverly Place this way. This is the crown jewel of the whole town, if you want my opinion. Uh, two, there are uh some structural issues with those overpasses and New Jersey Transit has come in through town before and uh has done some upgrades and I think that one is in need of some repair. So doing any painting to it I think would hinder the possibility of doing the future repairs the proper way. Um so anyway I will not uh as my wife says jontificate any longer. I will I will yield to anyone else who wants to speak but uh certainly I'm going to be very passionate about the idea of closing uh a lane down there. I just don't support it right now. But again I would look look to see a traffic study. Just a quick comment on the uh the railroad trestle. Part of showing that uh art mural on there was the concern of doing a a great rendering of new Waverly place and people focusing but what about this ugly railroad trestle? So we said make make it look nicer. So that was not a necessarily a a final design but a uh let's uh make it look pretty at least for now. Um

just two quick things. Um I meant to mention before about the loading zones. I don't know who made the comment. I actually agree that having time loading zones, which in theory sounds great, it's there's too fre many frequent things that come through, you know, as was stated. So that to me is a valid point. And my question was, although it sounds like it may not be maybe be a point, would New Jersey Transit even let us paint the trestle? Certainly. Yep.

Any other comments? Melissa? Um, just as I've heard the comments, um, many from business owners, I'm curious about what they want. First of all, um, is there a need for improved access to those storefronts? Um, pushing people towards that street. Um, if so, you know, I think that the beautifification and wider sidewalks is probably a good plus for that. Understanding that we're hearing a lot of, you know, new information and good information um, from the practicality standpoint. Um, from a budget standpoint, for me, I'm wondering if we should just be focusing on storm water management and then thinking about the beauty of downtown.

Okay. Any other comments? All right. Yep. Yeah. I I think I missed this point. I I think obviously something does need to be done to beautify Waverly Place. I I don't want uh that to be overshadowed by my earlier comments. So, thank you.

All right. So, very clear. Um I again appreciate all the comments and um we have a a lot of work to do before we do a lot of work and um it is a um and it's it is the center of our town and we have to get it done right. So we we will be back with more information as as this progresses, but we're we're going to, you know, process it all um and get together our team. So close this part of the meeting. I will now open the uh meeting up to public comment on any topic that you wish to comment on. Same rules apply. You step up to lectern, state your name and address or name and town and uh try to keep your comments to three minutes, but we give you the one minute grace. Jerry,

thank you. Mayor Jerry Mantone, one Highland Avenue. Um, I'll never stop thinking safety. Uh, there's a bench placed at the Hold on a second. For those that are leaving, if you could keep the keep quiet because the meeting's still going on.

There's a bench placed um and it's it's a nice looking bench. As you come down Maine near um the juice store and make a right into the Chase Bank, it's right in between the two driveways. In my opinion, you get a driver, a lot of people are on their phone, you get a driver that bumps a car, hits somebody from the rear, I honestly think they're going to run right into that bench. So, if that could be re relocated, I think we'd be saving person from injuries and a lot of liability. Thank you, Mayor. All right. We'll follow up on that thing. Any anyone else wishing to comment on any topic? Please step forward.

Who wants to ask about the leaf blowers? I told them to wait for another meeting. Uh I wanted to ask about the uh uh one more state your name again.

Oh, I'm sorry. Jim Finelli. Still 42 Dean Street, Madison. I watched last last week's meeting with the budget. I applaud Jim for all the work he did with the budget. Uh I I see we're coming across some very tough times as far as uh financial expenses for the bureau. Um some of the work with the PIFA uh are near and dear to me. I've been in the water department for 40 years. I think that uh you need to focus on having more than two treatment plants. I don't think you're going to be able to get all that water to come from two locations in Madison. The reason we only have two treatment plants right now is because those wells that need to be treated are just the three wells that it treats. and we don't run A and B well together which is a one treatment plant and D wells its own treatment plant but putting C and D together in a treatment plant will not allow us to run both of those wells together or to bring Ewell into the A and B treatment plant will not allow us to bring that together. So that's something you need to take in consideration when you're talking about the amount of money you're going to spend on on treatment for PAS. Uh as far as that also with that um I don't I don't know what our numbers are where they where they fall in with this with the D right now. I know the D is going to try and lower the numbers as far as it can so that everyone's required to treat for POS. Uh we have groundwater which is less susceptible to POS than than surface water is. So that's something that you know should be taken into consideration. I know you have 1.5 million I think you said as far as looking into studies for it. So hopefully that's a gives you a good step up on it. Uh the other thing I was asking questioning was the work with the Madison pool. Last meeting I thought Jim said that we put out $1.1 million for the pool so far and that this year they plan on generating $900,000. That $900,000 they're going to generate this year would be to fund what's going to happen there this year. The employees, the expenses of that pool. So $1.1 million that we're putting out from the burough was taxpayer money. I want to know what happened to the money that went missing. Are we are we is there is there any end in sight for the

investigation on that? I mean, that's a lot of money to go missing that we can't account for. I would I would hope that somewhere along the line, someone's going to let us know that, well, the money went here or there or misplaced or oh, it's in a fund we forgot about. I think that's a lot of money. I think that should be something that the taxpayers are well aware of where it is and uh and and what happened to it and how we're going to adjust for that. All right. Thank you. I'll I'll I'll address some of those in a second. Anyone else uh wishing to comment, please step forward. Seeing none, I close this part of meeting. Um, and just a uh quick uh thing is may some people may not have been following the POS. So, u we it appears by 2031 we have to be treating for POS in our water. That's what Jim Jim was alluding to. And so, it's going to be a costly project and so we are working that through. As far as the pool, um I cannot comment on uh what happened in the past outside of it. It is being fully uh investigated and we'll leave it at that. Um the uh going forward, it is our intention to be out of the pool business at some point and establish a new uh corporation, nonprofit corporation to uh run the pool. So, uh, this is a a temporary setup, but this is something that we see as incredibly important to the residents of Madison. So, that's why we've made that commitment.

Yep.

I'll just add one thing, mayor, to the budget. Um, $1.1 million is the projected expenses we have this year. 900,000 is the projected revenue we have this year. First year running a pool. I appreciate the opportunity to do it, mayor. Thank you. Thank you very much. Um uh but um we could bring in more in revenue and as Jim and Lou and and James and everyone knows, we tend to overbudget because we have to be able to cover the foreseen and the unforeseen expenses. So we could spend less than 1.1 million this year. We could raise more than 900,000 this year, but that's what's in the budget. And um so the 1.1 number was for this year, not nothing to do with last year.

Yep. So it is just forward looking and um membership uh signups are tracking well. Please visit madisonpool.org if you want to sign up for a membership. There's plenty of signs around. You can uh scan the QR code. Uh all right. With that, I will entertain a motion to adjurnn. Mayor, I move that we adjourn the meeting. All in favor? I thank you all for coming out on a nice