Board of Zoning Appeals and City of Madison Plan Commission - Regular Meeting

Oh well, I guess for the sake of do it dotting the keys and the jotss and the titles as they say in the Bible, I guess we got to wait a minute here. So what we is either Christie or one of the staff are doing they're sending them over to me and the I did go back in and I added in all clean them up then

at the golf voice recordings it takes about three minutes we got the software starts this meeting. Um, we had interference from the mics. Don't put yourself.

Well, it is 6 o'clock. Time to begin. Welcome to Board of Zoning Appeals, Madison, Indiana, April the April the 13, 2026. Could we have a roll call vote or excuse me, a roll call attendance? Yep. All right. Going down my list here. Rick Ferris here. Scott Baldwin here. Carl England here. And Nancy Pardon here. All right. Uh, and the minutes from well would be from February's meeting. Uh, there's one correction I think I see in this. It would be on page 2518.

Got it. And that was pertaining to a motion. It was Yeah, it was there. It says K England made a motion to approve the application. It should be to made a motion to deny the application. Exactly. Um, yep. The highlighted um action underneath is correct where it says the application was denied. It was just the sentence above. Are there any other additions or corrections? Motion to approve. Motion to approve if they want. Second. All in favor say I.

I. Post. No minutes are approved. Uh we have three tabled applications from unfortunately our last meeting. Uh first item on the agenda BZBD-25-18. Charles Webb Tanner and Amy Little requesting a variance from developmental standards for a zero foot setback 520 West Street. Somebody like to come up and address this? somebody here. I don't think they are here. Well, then we will go back to that one at the end of after the other two.

And there's a note on that one just um this was submitted under our old ordinances. So, they're requesting the north and south lot lines to be zero. Um which is their two sideyards when you look at the application. Um there we go. So, it's their two sideyards, the north and south. And those now we actually have a new ordinance. UDO has been adopted and in the central business district you can do a zero foot setback now. So we do want to confirm with him though his drawing shows that he has a 21 ft lot and he wants to put a 21 ft building there plus overhang. Uh so we don't want the overhang to be outside of his property line. So we can see if he shows up but that is something we can just kind of consider and might not necessarily need it as well. Now,

thank you very much. Next item on the agenda. Agenda BZVU-26-01 Jason Anderson etc. requesting a variance of use for a dwelling unit to build a two family dwelling 435 Green Road. Yes, sir. Would you come up and give for the record your name and address and explain what your situation is here? why you're requesting a variance of use.

So my name is Jason Anderson. I am representing GJTJ Realy addresses 295 Madison. We own the property at 435 Green Road. It is a rundown house in really poor condition and there's a barn on that lot that's also in poor condition. So, I would like to be able to tear that down and put a duplex up in place of that. And it's my understanding that that uh property is zoned for multi- family general business. Yes. Which does allow that.

It is not it's not really residential. Correct. But it is I mean there's a house there, right? And I want to tear the bad looking house down and put up a brand new duplex. And I know that there's a shortage of housing all across the US and I think even in our community and um would like to provide more affordable housing and have an influx there.

I do note that you're kind of in a one of those situations that happens here. That was North Madison, another little town long time ago. You've got all kinds of uses around it. Just to your west is I care Enterprises. On the other side is the Demery Trust and another one. And then there are some houses around there which I looked and don't have the homesteader exemption. So presumably they're rentals and you're immediately two or three block area. So I can see the mess you're in.

There's church there also. A church across the street, right?

So personally I only have one question. You submitted this drawing and it shows a variety of setbacks from the property line. Is that your plan to follow those setbacks? My plan is to follow the setback rules of the whatever the city ordinances and I believe I was told I think either 12t or 15t off the line. So I'll need to know exactly on the front side where that line needs to be. so that I can have a blueprint drawn up of a building that will follow that.

Yes, I know when we talked about under the old ordinance, which you did apply under um he's applied under the old ordinance, what we had talked about is general business didn't have defined setbacks under your old ordinance. So, since he's applied under that ordinance, he can continue with that if he'd like to. Um those are then set by the plane commission in particular. the new ordinance I think we went through accessory buildings were 15 feet primary buildings were 20 from the sides um this is again a non-conforming lot because I'm not sure I mean it's small for a general business lot um even though we don't have standards for minimum lot size on that um so again we can also talked about we can we can look into some of the nonconformities but um the setbacks are going to be harder to obtain too under like the new ordinance.

Uh the setbacks you hear have here or are I presume then these are from the existing house as you have here. Do you set from the existing house by any chance? I do not know. I mean based on that line uh the house is pretty close to the line. I would say that's less than 10 but I don't know how accurate that line is. Sometimes GI is not exactly correct. And you have parking you're going to come in the alley for parking. I intend to come in on the alley on parking and have one spot on each end of it.

Okay. Right. You know, now there's no access to the green road. That's a kind of a busy little area right there. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, the front of the I was my proposal would be the front of the duplex face the alley. Okay. They would come in and out on the alley and have a driveway like right at Green Road, the side of Green Road on one end and then the other end like this when you're parking down here. One thing I can I would like to make sure that when you come out of the alley that you're not blinded by the building. Make sure you have right visible because it's if a narrow road and they drive way too fast, right? But I mean there's a sidewalk there. Yeah, there is. So

you back from Yes. I'll be back off the road from that in my opinion. I'm not Yeah. And we do allow setbacks. I mean, your old ordinance too allows parking within your setbacks for general business. the old institute. So, so Jason, are you saying you would have one uh parking spot per unit? That is going to be the minimum. Yes. I I hope that I can have room for two vehicles on each. Okay. I'm not 100% sure that Okay. going to come down. I'm sorry. The old shed, the barn.

Yes, that barn will come down. The house will come down. And I would basically be using this basically from end to end on the lot. Enough room for at least one vehicle and then hopefully have this duplex that has two bedrooms and one bathroom. So you don't plan to rebuild on the same foundation of the old house. So what you're seeking is some kind of guidance of what kind of setbacks you need from all your lot lines. Yes. And that would be if you're following the old ordinance set by planning commission. Well, um, as we go through that, and remember he said that the house is basically already on the lot line.

Yeah, he's decreasing that non-compl. Um, I just wondered where you got these measurements on the application. Mind if I see that? Sure. Yeah. Here, I'll give you mine so he can keep his. You had 20 on the front and rear and then 15 on the side. So, I just did a quick search on duplexes and I found one that I thought would fit. Um, and I took those dimensions and I roughed it in and I I feel like that I can either modify that blueprint to to give me my the setback that I need. And if I got 20 ft on each side, I think that would actually probably be enough room for two vehicles. Yeah,

probably. The other thing that we can look into so our non-conforming the new ordinance if you do follow that um the new ordinance when we look at non-conforming for residential structures we do have some provisions that if a structure is damaged or um destroyed by any means and that's a state statute by any means. though whatever means those may be um as long as it's going to continue for residential purposes and we don't expand the square the footprint you can make it smaller so you're not expanding that footprint then it can be reconstructed within 12 months so I think we can kind of look at again exactly what do your building plans end up being and find the kind of easiest route to get there.

Yeah. Yeah. I I want to know, can I put a duplex there? And if I can, what are going to be my guidelines to go by? Right. Like say big as as I can, as close to the property as I can. It's allowable. Sure. See, under the old ordinance, residential setbacks were defined. Yeah. on a case- by case basis, which is and you were aware that we just changed bunch of ordinances, right? I'm not aware of all the changes that were made, but yes, I'm aware that there was some changes. Yeah.

Yeah. Last couple months, we've kind of always said, okay, here's the old ones. Here be the new ones that passed as it was presented. And you know, you can kind of you can't put one foot in each, but you can either fully comply with the old one or fully comply with the new one. Um, and so I think for you it's either way the use needed to be approved and then it's the kind of easiest path maybe passed there. Yeah.

Under the old ordinance in uh medium density residential. That's kind of appropriate. The setbacks would have been 10 feet wide sideyards and 20 feet from the rideway if bordering a collector or lesser street. So that seems to me to be pretty appropriate in this admittedly messed up situation you find yourself in. Trust me, you are not alone in Madison. This happens a lot here. That's why the city's updated the ordinance.

So, it would seem to me that under the old ordinance, sideyards would have been 10 feet, front yard would have been 20 since I think that would classify as a collector street, Green Road. Um, I can pull up the functional class, but I'm going to guess it is. Um, so board members and as far as actually putting a residence there, well, there was one there. Mhm. And it's one of those mixed up I mean, general business, you think Walmart. Well, there there's nothing resembling Walmart. There's a doctor's office.

Yeah. I'm not sure why this area is zoned general business. Oh, it was probably a leftover from years and years and years ago. local business would have made more sense. But so board members, I proposed passing a variance of use to put a build a house there with 10 ft um setbacks from the sideyards and 20 ft main road parking to be of course on the property. Any comments or suggestions, corrections, ideas about that proposal? It's good idea. I got to work.

And just to clarify, when you say a dwelling, it's a two family dwelling, a duplex, right? Well, I think the thing that makes this conversation a lot easier is that there was an existing house, right, already there. So, we're not changing uh the structure from a business to a house. Yep. And there seem to be nearby other rental houses days of your

well then and when you look at those findings of fact that were presented in the staff report too. Um so again having to satisfy all of those findings that um we went through those from a staff perspective you guys have had this for two months now too. Um, we found all of those findings as presented to be satisfied, meaning that there wasn't an issue. Um, and really again trying to improve that. It's going more dense than it is now. So, we're getting closer to that uh general business. But, um, those findings of fact were included in your staff report. So, they can be included.

They were your staff was favorable. So, once again, board members, my proposal is grant the variance of use with 10-ft sideyard setbacks and 20 ft setback from Green Road, which is congruent with the old ordinance of medium density residential, which seems to be sort of what that area is. Second, then I'll recast that as a motion. I move

we are very informal here. This is not Judge Judy. Uh I move that we approve. Uh well, before I do that, let's go through our our findings of fact. Uh so since there have been plenty of time to think this over and staff is in favor of it, I'll just go down the five criteria for variance of use and I'll merely ask with your approval board members. I'll just ask if anybody has any objections or if you think it's not met. Number one, injurious to the public health safety morals. Any objections? No.

No. Number two, uh use and value of adjacent properties are not badly affected. Any you all in agreement? Yes. Yes. Approve. Uh number three, need for variance arises from some condition peculiar to the property involved. And on that one, I'll say yes. peculiarity is telepathy that it's bizarrely zoned and that there was previously a house there. But anybody else and of course this is always the big one. Anybody else think that one's not met? That's right. You're all in agreement? Yes.

Uh strict application, unnecessary hardship. Do any of you have any objections there? You think that one's met? It's met. And number three does not interfere substantially with comprehensive plan. All in agreement. You think it's met? Y. Okay. Having gone through our findings of fact criteria, I move that we approve this variance of use to construct a two family dwelling with the following sidebacks. 10 feet from each of the sideyards and 20 feet from Green Road. and parking to be on the property.

I'll second your motion. Could we have a roll call? Sure thing. Rick Ferris, yes. Scott Baldwin, yes. Carl England. Yes. Spart. Yes. Well, I hope you thunder. We wish you well. Thank you. Yep. Welcome to Monday.

We can coordinate um you know the next week or whatever. here. Next item on the agenda. Um, here we go. BZCU-26-03 Gabriella Bogdan Davyy Thomas M uh conditional use approval for 581 tourist home operate up to three short-term rentals 215 West Main Street. And I believe that on the application you also said to put a bakery in there. So, if you'd come up to the podium, ma'am, and give your name and address for the record, please.

Hello. My name is Gabriella and I am at 215 West Street. And uh you want to put a bakery on the first floor or the well, at least where the old insurance office was. And the bakery is a permitted use by right. So, that's already permitted and can continue without any approvals here. So, um, it's a great addition, but it definitely it's not doesn't need to be part of your approvals tonight. Very good. So, you want to use three short-term rental Airbnb type things.

And I walking around your property, I noticed that you have the rarest of all commodities. You have a beautiful parking slab in the back. Yeah. All street parking. Handy for guests to have their own private parking so that you don't have to worry about street parking. And that is a a very nice thing because parking is very scarce commodity. There's also a nice parking lot back here that was developed by the city not long ago. So So and you could actually get three cars easily on that slab it looks like. So

there is one utility pole that we might take a look at just so people don't accidentally get it. When I walk back there, it looked to me like you could easily get three cars in there. And the entrance to the Airbnb is actually going to be from that parking lot. There's actually an old entrance where the garage is now. We're going to be taking over the garage and turning that back into the main living area of the first floor and then um using the original doors hopefully. I saw you had an alley door and then that garage door in back. So the main street would just be the bakery entrance. Board members, do you have any questions or comments?

How many bedrooms was each unit? So um we're in a pre-esign phase right now. So uh currently I'm only planning to put one unit in the bottom, but there's some consideration of extending the top floor through the whole of the building. So there would be additional there. So just per unit. So, what's the maximum per unit you would rent to? Maximum number of people, I should say. Well, I don't have any designs yet for the location. So, is that something I need to determine right now?

So, we do have in our ordinances um new standards. Again, I know you've applied under the old, but it gives us some guidance um in our our guidance and our new ordinances two um occupants per occupi two people per occupiable bedroom or area. So, you know, some of those Airbnbs have a um like living room that's really a flex space. Um or what's allowed by state statute or fire codes. So, um and I know right now current structure you would only actually put one in. You requested three in case you decide to put that second floor on. And we've talked about the need for historic board view and all of that as well if there's any exterior changes. So,

um, in my view, there's no problem with any of this, but staff, would you have any comments about saying max three cars parked off street? Yeah. Or max three cars for the the short-term rental. Yeah, I think that would be fine. And um again, those findings of fact are in your um packet that you guys can look at and reference uh in terms of making sure those are satisfied. Um but we found that they all would be satisfied through this. But if you want additional condition of a maximum number of uh parking spots, that's that's I think reasonable. Do

you have any opinions on how many people or how many cars board members what you suggest. Um, it's hard to make a max of three because you could have couples people coming from different locations to show up there. You know, probably reasonably based on like the size of them though, you're not going to get huge groups just because and right now there's only one in your current future which you'd have three spots for if I park there myself. Um, there's parts that can,

you know, come through management. So maybe we'll, you know, have a little spot for those as well. So, you know, I don't know if there's a difference in full size.

Any other questions or comments, board members? It does not seem necessary to inquire if the public wants to say anything.

Just for the record, there are no no one was in attendance for the previous application or this one. So, we can make sure that it gets documented. Uh uh house rules I don't have in this packet any house. Whenever it comes to an Airbnb, of course, yours is kind of exceptional because there's really nowhere to party. But it I'm always personally concerned about quiet, peace and quiet for the neighbors. And I realize your situation, there aren't many neighbors there. at least yet.

The teleport market in the alley. That's pretty much it. I doubt you'll be having any beer parties out in the slab. That's where you still have those city city nuisance ordinances for noise and, you know, disruption of the public. So, those can be enforced regardless of the use, the ones that are in place.

Yep. Uh well board members since you've got no other questions I guess you can have a seat ma'am and we'll go down we'll go through our findings of fact and once again board members with your permission I'll just go down each of the nine and ask if anybody thinks they're not met. So and this is 581 under the uh old zoning ordinance. You all think that 581 is the appropriate use? Yes. Yes. Uh harmonious with the comprehensive plan etc. You think agreements? Yes.

Yes. Harmonious in appearance with you know the existing character of the general area won't change it much at all. Correct. Think that's all met? Yes. Not hazardous or disturbing to present or future uses. Shouldn't think that's met. Yes. And number five is about utilities. They're all there. I think we're all in agreement. No problem there. Uh create excessive requirements. Number six, at public expense, not detrimental to the economic welfare of the community. You think that one's met? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Number seven, won't have uh detriments by excessively production of traffic, noise, smoke, smoke, smoke, etc. Any disagreements there? Uh, vehicular approaches, not going to interfere with traffic. I think that one's met. Yes. And number nine, won't lose important historic features, etc. Think that one's met? Yes.

Yes. Now, I have a question for staff. this is under being applied under the old ordinance, but the new ordinance is going to govern the future. Yes. So, you could say that again she just needs to comply with the new standards as a condition. Um, that's the easiest way to do it and um none of those are overly or that you know the state does regulate a lot with short-term rentals now versus a couple years ago. So um and we cannot specify a term anymore under the new ordinance.

Correct. So yeah, under the new ordinance, we aren't renewing our conditional use permits because once you re once you once you approve that use really is approved, if there's an issue, we take care of that through a violation process. And there's actually specific violation processes for short-term rentals in state statute even. Um I think it's three violations within a year and it's it it specifies it. Um so we'll take care of that if there's issues through with the use through that um aspect of it as well. Yeah.

Short-term rentals though, we do have an annual it's not a conditional use permit. It's just a registration permit. They pay the first time and then they fill it out annually. But um state statute doesn't allow us to charge annually. And I also, correct me if I'm wrong on this, under the new ordinance, this uh well, it used to be a conditional use permit. Now it's going to be a special exception under the new one. Uh that goes with property that'll be recorded on the deed.

Yes, sir. And that's one of the kind of little education things we'll do right after this. We've got your your kind of uh fact sheets there for the new ordinance and whatnot. Uh yeah, the new ordinance would specify that it runs with the land, not the property owner, unless it's otherwise specified by the BA or um I think it's three years to pull a building permit or a few other triggers like that. Um BCA can specify again it could run with ownership or something of that nature. Um, but you can't specify less than one year.

Uh, I only ask that from the standpoint of establishing precedents and general practices and also in a sense protecting adjacent homeowners and stuff from problems that may arise. Now any um you know if they did sell this they would be the new owners would have to comply with whatever conditions are put on. So if you talk about parking or you talk about um you know any of those other types of standards those go with it too. So again if they violate that we would go through a violation process and issue those violations. Do you know of any court cases or anything that says that if we were to approve this with the stipulation that it the uh special exception applies as to the owner

or is that

yeah I mean that's a that is a common thing I would say make sure it's with more of an operational use so that you still have a functionality out of that like if you are an accessory dwelling unit Right? If you build an accessory dwelling unit and they sell it, probably still going to be used as an accessory dwelling unit in the future. Um, again, this your short-term rentals have some flexibility. Could you could become an apartment as well and actually do you know what I mean? Long-term leases. Um, so make sure I would recommend those are typically more with something that's operational that can have more than one function. um like if it's a certain type of business you're approving, there's a lot of other businesses that could go to that place.

So, just to be clear in my 77y old brain, did you just say yes or no? You said yes. Okay. Thank you. Yes. But don't do that. I wouldn't have a minute on every special exception. I move we approve this conditional use/sp specialcial exception uh with the following stipulation that applies to the owner. That's my motion. What were those conditions? Can you repeat those? And it's based on the findings of fact as presented. Well, yes, based on the findings of fact. What were those um conditions?

Actually, we didn't really have one didn't even have a right you or were there no conditions you just want to move to approve it then yes okay that works so just move to approve yes I move to no additional conditions can I ask a question just to make sure I understand that means when they sell the building a new owner would have to come back and get that same so my understanding is your your motion didn't have any conditions on it correct Scott

the condition I cited was that this special this conditional use permit or special exception we move to approve it subject to one condition that it applies to the owner. Okay. Oh, so if the ownership changes from if the ownership changes and subsequent owners will have to apply.

Yes, ma'am. So that would be the and I would go ahead and specify it's not a minor change in you know what I mean ownership if somebody changes you or a husband or somebody or an LLC changes um that it might have the same owners you know what I mean? Can we discuss that? Is that for discussion? I would just prefer for that to just be on the on the building on the property so that the next owner doesn't have to go through all the hassle that I had to to kind of get here, you know. Um I originally had the property um sale the purchase agreement on condition of this approval just so I was sure that this was a possibility and then the meeting got delayed and you know and so I ended up moving forward with the purchase but it's um it would be more valuable to the property if it was already zoned for the building um if I did need to resell it. That would be my preference

and I would look to what are the impacts you know what I mean from the surrounding if it's in a neighborhood there might be more impacts than if well you see ma'am I an apartment

suggest this we have downtown perhaps a hundred Airbnbs sort of things and to date I know of one complaint so they're all working beautifully now under the old rules those conditional use permits were went with the owner and if the owner sold the thing died, the new owner could come back certainly and apply for his own. And so in my thinking, this is exactly what I was thinking about that. Yeah, it might improve the value of the property, but that's not what this board's here to do. This board is here to try its very best to make sure there are no battles between neighbors essentially. And that's why I suggested put in my motion. I'll just be upfront about that. We've had great luck in Madison with Airbnbs of no disruption, no wild craziness. It's just been, let's face it, the downtown. That's what it is now. about rentals, short-term rentals. That's the changing times. But to keep people from getting at each other's throats, that's why it was easy under the old rules, things have changed.

But but my point is I think her circumstance is different because she's not in a residential property, you know, with neighbors next to her. So, I think hers would be different than if it she was in a residential neighborhood. So, I'm more leaning more towards it can go it wouldn't have to go with the owner. It can go with the building just because of her special circumstances of being here on Main Street. And I think we would like more short-term rentals in those circ properties. I'd rather see them there than in all these neighborhoods where I don't have neighbors. I have short-term rentals. So I think hers is would be a perfect place for shorts. I agree with that.

Well, if that's your feeling, board members, so we have a motion. It has not been seconded. Scott can either resend the motion or if it doesn't get a second. You can make another motion. Well, how's that like? Since it hasn't been seconded, erase that first one. You can modify your motion or send it either way. Yeah. I move we approve this conditional use special exception with no additional condition. No additional. Okay. Second Nancy. We have a motion in a second. We have a roll call. Sure thing. Uh Rick Ferris. Yes. Scott Baldwin? Yes. Carl England? Yes. Nancy Ber?

Yes. 4. All right. Um the city is starting an annual permit process too for you. So that is not online yet but we're working on that currently and then we'll kind of send something out but just keep an eye out for it. Thank you.

Uh let's see. I know we've gone through the two where there were people here. The first one 520 West Street. Since nobody showed up. would you like me to reach out to the applicant and if we confirm that he is not going to overhang off of his parcel then he is now permitted by right versus uh you know um last meaning he would not have been um so are you guys okay with that and if that's the case we can go ahead and have I'll have him withdraw that then is that good with everybody is that are you in agreement with that suggestion board members yes yes I will reach out to him tomorrow then

well then should I probably should put that as a motion Um it doesn't because in that case I would just suggest he withdraw the application and then it wouldn't you know what I mean? Uh just for okay formality I move we instruct appropriate staff member to reach out to the applicant instructing him if his property is completely contained within his or his excuse me if his project is completely contained within his property lines with no incursion on the neighbors that uh this variance will be approved. D

and well we wouldn't need a variance at that point. It would just be permitted by right. And is your motion technically to table it with that mo like with those instructions I guess? Yes. Okay. I'll second the motion. Correct. All in favor say I. I oppose. No. And just for the record that was BZVD-25-18 18. Yes. At 520 West Street. Okay. Yep. All right. H well that concludes the business and now Miss Williams you have a few things you'd like to go over.

Sure thing. So we've got updated rules and procedures. Um plane commission adopted a version of this as well. Um VCA actually did have some rules and procedures versus we uh could not find the ones for plane commission previously. But um I can kind of run through those. Those are the second tab of your packets there if you want to run through those. Um the first section, section 1.1 really just talks about authority and power of the BCA. So this is a lot of state statute. It's your statutory authority, the powers and duties and delegation of that authority. So um if you go to 1.2 that talks about your membership. So we've also summarized it in a little table. Um, and actually I could pull this up just in case you want it on the screen as well.

Let me put this packet over here then. Can I make a comment? Yeah, of course.

Um, so on item number two under section 1.2 where it says a member of the BZA serves until their successor is appointed. That's if um so that's in there really in case like say uh council, right? You're in a you're one of the the city council appointment. I something happens and you have a meeting before they can actually appoint. Usually it's just a month or two or sometimes there's a forgetting to reappoint those folks. Uh so it isn't the intention to use that. It's the um kind of covering the bases in case it does happen and it's allowed by state statutes.

Well, I'm just making it known that uh that unless uh I die tomorrow, I plan on retiring from this board at the end of my term. That's good to know. It's good to make sure that your appointing authority knows that so that you know um while there's a lot of uh fun times here at BCA, sometimes it's harder to find people to serve on our boards as well. So yes, we have at one period gone for way over a year.

Nice thing is like on the bottom of the agenda, they keep that as a running tally so it's very clear when you have some uh appointments that are going to be vacated or need to be reappointed. Yeah, I'd wondered about that myself. I mean, are you going to prop up our mummies here in case No. So, uh, we'll figure out. So, yeah, Rick is the council appointment. So, again, if if you're not wanting to be reappointed, that's something that Tony and I'm, mayor, and everybody else can start to work with council on or make them aware of.

And then like Scott, you are the mayor's appointment. Carl, you are the plan commission appointment. And then Nancy, Nancy is also council. Um that um okay so continuing through that you do kind of your your just chart of what folks are and who appoints those folks. Um there are options for alternative members under state statute. Um so we know we're going to have an issue with quorums or something. We can maybe try to get ahead of that. Uh it does get a little bit we need to if we have a more than a week or two of lead time possibly um removal of members. So this is actually one moment. Yes.

Uh under serving till your successor is appointed that section. Is there any age limit? Oh like a you have to be a certain age. Certain age. You know I'd have to look that up. I don't know. I would guess 18. Old enough to vote. I would I would think you need to be 18, but I don't know that answer. Um, you do have to be a resident. So, there's a few things like that, but I'm not no one's ever asked the age thing. That's a good question. So, you're saying serve till successor is appointed actually means till there's been a city council meeting or Yeah, I wondered about that.

I just don't want it to be till death do his part. Um on the removal members at the bottom that there were some recent state statutes that are not in effect yet. Um that just got changed that there are options to remove without cause and we can as those go into effect and we navigate what those really mean we can look at it if we need to update anything on that.

Um at the top of page four you talk about your officers and our elections. That again goes through kind of our standard processes here. Um, right now it does say that the secretary of the BCA is the administrator um or other city staff as designated. So that just I always kind of point that out. You don't have to take minutes and and all of that. Um if there's a conflict of interest or bias of the members, um there's statutes and there's guidance for that.

Yes. I noticed that uh under under this new ordinance if you have a conflict of entrance interest like your neighbor something's your next door neighbor you actually have to leave the room.

So that is what we've kind of worked into this. It just helps to say that you're not somehow really still influencing this. We had a situation in a meeting once some time ago where a board member had a neighbor that wanted something and the board member obviously recused himself and then he wanted to sit in the audience and speak actually in that case he spoke four but that would not be allowed under this

right we would say really best practice can I hang out in the staff like offices area until that petition's gone or done, then no one can claim that you were influencing it. Just to make sure everybody's transparent.

Um, so the top of page five, then we talk about staff and kind of what their duties are. Um, and then also the use of committees that, uh, plane commission has established committees by ordinance and so you guys have use of those committees like technical review and the historic board as well. Um section 1.3 goes through actions and decisions that you guys have. Um it's a little bit more clear with BCA because no act or no decisions go to the legislative body of the council like the plan commission has. So um we talk about quorum and those votes. Um we also talk about the idea of written commitments. Those are those kind of quote conditions that get reported um just so that it's clear for future folks to be able to easily find those. Um and then we also talk about tableabling those applications. So if there's improper notice, we can have ta we can table that. Um they can be an automatic um continuence if uh you can't get a motion to approve or we don't have a quorum or the applicant can also request that to be continued. Um as we kind of work through the top of page seven, it continues through that. Um an interested party could request that to be continued again or tabled. That's up to the board's decision though. Um or you all can opt to uh request that to be tabled.

Uh one moment back to conflict of interest. There was a city ordinance some years ago about that. I assume that still rules. Um yeah, we can look into that to make sure, but this was we kind of vetted that as well with um Tony and mayor and others. I'll verify that's not going to conflict, but our conflict of interest is state statute. So, um, it's going to be at least controlling unless there's something above and beyond. When state statute provides for something, let's just say conflict of interest rules, can this city make things more strict?

You can go above and beyond. You can't go lesser than what the state statute's going to be. And really here, I mean, it's just you don't want to have a conflict of interest. You don't want to talk to people about an application regardless of who they are. Really, the safest just say, "I'm not going to talk to anybody about applications." Um, it is versus plane commission. They're you, it's not governed necessarily the same way by state statute, but BZA, an applicant or a person cannot contact you as a board member with the intention of influencing your decision. Once in a while that does happen. So I presume where you have to in a meeting. So

you just need to say I can't talk about that things. But I can't talk about they don't back off sometimes. Um and against most people I think don't realize that they shouldn't be doing that. And so when you tell them hey we it's against state law to do this. I can't talk to you about an application. Please come to the meeting or talk to staff. And that's the appropriate manner. But once it's public knowledge, you still can't talk to an applicant or anybody who about an application on your docket. No, but I'm saying once the application has been voted on. Oh, yeah. Then it's already becomes public record, then we can talk. Yeah. Then it's decided. Yeah. And that's what I

The idea is they don't No one should be influencing you externally. It should be based on the We can't even talk to each other about things. Yeah. That you don't want to do that either. Um, you can't talk to a quorum's worth, but you can't talk individually one to one to one to one. There was a staff. You can definitely talk to staff and we could talk through questions or, you know what I mean, to vet um what that application is with you. Again, we're not here influencing. We're here providing kind of that information and we're now can we um have these rules and procedures left in the book? Yes. Okay.

Yes. Those we'll leave in the back of your box, too. Um okay so we were down then under decisions uh right we just went through continuence is that right? Yes. Um so withdrawal of an application again um an applicant can withdraw that application. Um also the BCA can dismiss a case. So you can do it for lack of jurisdiction. Sometimes if it's not within your jurisdiction we always just put that in there because every once in a while you do need to use that one. um or if it's been continued for three months by any party. So if you've got one and we're continually continuing it for some reason, you could dismiss that as well. Um we do have a little summary table there of your decisions. So special exceptions, variance views, variance development standards, those are the ones you're going to get more frequently. Um appeal of an administrative decision comes to you guys as well. So administrative decision would be like myself or um Dwey or you know some sort of staff that is interpreting the ordinance and if they disagree with that they have 30 days to file an appeal with you all. Um you all would then either affirm meaning hold up the staff decision modify it or you would disagree or deny you know deny that staff decision. Um and that's kind of that process. So there is a process that we're going to get make sure we have an application online for that too instead of just a paper one and technically also use classification. So um as administrator you can say yep that I I have criteria in the ordinance that helps me classify a use if it's not specifically listed. Um, again, right now I think we're probably good, but in 15 years as new uses come online, but also staff or an applicant can say, I'd like BZI to classify this use. And then it gets classified by you all. And there's criteria that we go through with that. So, um, next page then we're looking at hearings. So, our schedule, again, regular schedules, we're we're second Monday of every month, um, at 6 PM. Um,

when we start to look at special meetings can be called. And so it just kind of outlines if we need a special meeting, how we can go about that. And that we'll have an agenda for each of those meetings. Um the public records that are also that's in section B there under 1.4. Um all of our minutes are public records and proceedings which again everything's online and being streamed anyway. So that's that's a great um tool as well. Um but it also says kind of what we need to at least continue or we need to maintain in our records. So, um, like the votes of all members, who is in attendance, um, you know, that sort of thing. The summary, a detailed summary of what we actually talked about. The top of page nine, we talk about the order of business. So, just how we go through our agenda. You're just following the agenda, but we'll set that up that way. We call uh call meeting to order, roll call, minutes, and then we go through applications tabled, and then new other business like we're doing now, and then you adjourn. So, pretty standard what you're used to following just outlined. Um, and then your procedures. So, again, uh, this does a little bit, this is a little bit different because we put some time limits on these as well. Um, so the applicant or proposing applicant would have five minutes to present their kind of case unless it's extended by the chairperson. Uh, questions by you all. There's no time limit on that. And then presentation by interested parties. So, those are the part those are the partials that are join, right? the ones right around that get the mailed letter. Um they get three minutes each and then presentation of nonp parties who's kind of anybody else. They would get a minute at the discretion of the chairperson. Again, sometimes if you've you've heard from 20 adjoining properties, you might have heard it all and we move on. Uh chairperson might ask, is there something we haven't heard? You know, and let that person speak. Um you all would have then your other discussion any follow-up questions. Um and then you would close it with your official action.

So this time keeping an extension of time is the chairperson responsibility. I would say that was your administrator's responsibility. Okay. Um as people come up we uh one of the plan commission meetings we did institute that and I had a timer and um I did suggest we might get a really loud timer because it's a little easier when it goes off really loudly. Um and Bartholomew County uses a timer. Yeah, most people do. And it's again it's just okay as soon as they start speaking after they say their name and address you hit start three minutes and it goes off and everybody time. So they can't sit down then try and come back up for another time. They get one time. Yep.

Um and we'll talk about that here in just a minute too that they can't like move their unused time to other people or anything like that. um orderly conduct just says we're all going to per you know behave nicely and simply to everybody else. Um and then the public comment at the next page. So again BCA has the authority to extend any of these time periods if you need to. So again if there's a valid reason the board could extend that. Um rebuttal time is included in that. So it's not like I get up and speak as a an adjoining property owner and then you know next person does and I can't get back up and rebutt. Now BZA can ask followup questions though if they need to. So that's not um an issue but unused time can also not be allocated to another person. Um

how about if we anticipate having a meeting that could get pretty heated? Had a few. Uh when do we ask for police protection? Yeah, I mean I think it's always a good rule of thumb if you think that there is um heated debates, right? Or passionate debates within that meeting, it never hurts to have somebody from Madison Police Department here. Never hurts. And and I think that's just something we can always request.

I would I would suggest that you feel that there is a need responding Please reach out to the mayor's office. Typically those applications, the agendas are all being reviewed by various staff members. So we have a pretty good sense and have had police officers in as commissioners if you feel there's

absolutely agreed. Um let's see. So, we left off on public comment here. Um, again, it just kind of states what they need, name and address, so we can put that in the record. Um, it it goes through also those written commitments. Um, if or comments, excuse me, written comments, they can be submitted prior. Um, if they are, we'll go ahead and send them out in the packets. If not, they can be provided to you all and then we will put those in the public record. Um, and is there anything on here about remote? Uh we your city has a um virtual ordinance and so we're defaulting. Okay. So that covers that. Okay.

Yeah, that was one thing that we kind of tweaked around just to make sure it works that um I know sometimes plane commission will have somebody in particular like you there needing to do that. Just so you know how that works. Um if if you want to participate in remotely then you have to be visible to the public and have audio be on the TV set.

Yeah. Um so our applications 1.5 goes through again the filing applications so that we need to have again a complete application those are those are submitted um goes through the processes for that we also talk about amended applications um again if if uh and much more with plats and whatnot we have amendments as the the you know the application process goes along but again those can be submitted um we'll need to make sure that again we have all uh available information in in the required timelines. Can I comment here? Yeah.

Um so one of the things that um we we run into not not every meeting but it's it's frequently is an applicant will come in and they will have a drawing but we won't have a copy.

Yeah. And that's when um again always encourage that to come in prior to sending out packets or at least the week before. So you can again if information came in a week prior, I'd still send that back out to you. I say, "Hey, here's some additional information to add to your packet and that would get posted online, too. Um, if someone walks in with a drawing in front of you and it's something that's going to take more than a minute to look over, you as a board have the right and ability to table that, say, "Hey, I really need to study this to make sure I understand it." What it may be? Well, I guess where I'm going with this is um it and and maybe you guys do this, but you know, to me, the applicant should be held accountable that when they submit their application, if they don't have, you know, if they're going to build a a building and they have no drawings, And that needs to be addressed before.

So we do require a site plan. Again, it can be handdrawn as long as we have dimensions, right? That we understand not everybody. Jason had one

civil right. Exactly. Civil engineering architecture drawings. Um you can approve a use without again stamp drawings. Um but we do require a site plan. So, we at least understand as a BZA, yeah, I'm going to be 10 foot here and if you can understand how the site's functioning and working, um, whatever that may be. We don't necessarily, I would say, you definitely do not need like full uh, CD sets that you'd be submitting for your building permits, but we do need a site plan and that that is a required element. That's one of the things we've updated some of the the application names now and the explanation of what those are online. The next step is uh I'm going to go through those and look and see how we can make some of those required items. Um like everything should have a site plan. Um even if it's again I say it can be handdrawn. It does not have to be clearly just label it and draw it nicely and neatly so we can understand it.

The board does have the power say if we don't have insufficient information. Yeah. It can be tabled and we've done that before. Correct. And then that should be a vetting too on the staff's side as well. Um again the way that open gov process works it as soon as somebody submits it comes to me. I look to see if the application is complete. Yeah. If it's not complete they don't even get the option to pay.

And so once I say yes it is complete we can move forward with it. What what do you do? Like the applicant attendance says there that they or their representative shall be authorized in writing. Well, if somebody walks up to the podium and say, "Hey, my neighbor Joe called me. He had to stay at work. I'm here to represent him. Give me something." And that's happened. We just want to make sure that uh would you really actually authorized them and it wasn't a well would you table it then or you could um that's why I say it's good to have that in writing.

Again I'm not doesn't need to be notorized or anything but we need some sort of thing saying I'm not going to attend tonight but my neighbor Joe is going to be there. He can speak because he might be committing you to something right or he might might come in and say I want to withdraw the application. Well that's true. Well but you're authorizing him to do that. It's kind of like, you know, I've seen that happen. It's the right person. But so we do want something in rating just because if not, how do we know he really is authorized? And we've had that before. Yeah.

A lot of times people one is if it's an attorney, again, there's different levels of, you know what I mean? Yeah. Okay. That's their attorney. I don't necessarily need that rating. Um, okay. So, let's see. Where were we? Um, uh, denied applications. So, if they submit an application, it's denied, they can't reapply for a year. Um, that's the same application. They get they need to make substantial changes. That's okay. Um, site visits. So, you guys have the ability to go to that's something that can be amended. Somebody says, well, you know, I want to maybe not wait a year, but maybe eight months, you know. So, I would recommend they just withdraw that application,

okay? If they're not ready for it. Um, the purpose of that is so like your neighbors don't have to come out for the same thing. But if they have a substantial change to that, again, contractor can't make it there. Something. So, that would just be a table requesting the table. Okay. Is what I would suggest. Okay. Um, you all can go do one other thing. Mhm. In the old ordinance, if you granted a conditional use under the old ordinance and you had not begun it within a year, it was null and void. Is that still in the new one? So, do you have your little packets? Let me open it. Um, the little cheat sheets on your table, too. These are not part of your rules to specify that

the types of applications. Um, yeah, it does say that at the bottom of each one. to see how good my I cannot see what's over here. But um special exception says uh use has not been established within three years of approval. So they got three years now. Developmental standards variance uh use has not been established within three years. Yeah, there's the same for all of them not obtained within three. So, you have three years. That's a big change.

Yeah. So, um that is specified in the ordinance as well. I'm opening that do it up for you guys. All right. Yep. That's what you're referencing. Ah, come on. um is again so it is um if the building permit has not been obtained within three years of the approval, building permits um have expired and a new one has not been obtained within three years or the use has not been established within three years. Sometimes you don't need a building permit. So basically have three years to figure out what they want to do something. Um

and again has to be finished pull the building permit within three years. So, just to clarify, you get a special exception. Mhm. And then you have three years to actually do what you wanted to do. If there is to pull a building permit or establish the use, basically. And if you do not within that three years, then does it go off of your deed? Then it's void. Then the whole thing is void. Yep.

That makes sense. And so on those approvals, I'll put those as just your standard because it's or it's in the ordinance. It's not even just in your rules. So, um, let me go back here then. Um, so applicant attendance, they do need to attend that meeting or send a representative like we just mentioned. Uh, top of the next page, interested parties. So, this is where we define by rule rather than by ordinance who our interested parties are. Um, and basically anybody that is an adjoining property owner, including, you know, across streets and alleys and corners. Um, and we use the county's GIS system as the platform is that's our record for who it gets mailed to.

And since this is a rule, this has legal standing in case somebody wanted to do it.

Yes. Um so there's also the ability it is rule so any of these rules can be suspended by um I believe it's twothirds vote of the the BCA as well. Um but yeah so it's interested parties are defined by rule. So we we do include that in your rules versus the ordinance. Um and also by rule we establish again what forms of public notice we we do have. So, we've not changed this, but um that the applicant nails that notice and the city puts it in the newspaper and if at some point state statute changes, we can revisit that. But I feel like everybody is still established that the newspaper is still something that we want to make sure happens. Um just because that's been a kind of a a known known route. Um in addition to that, everything gets put on the city's website, too. Uh required information. So again, all of the uh information that's been that needs to be submitted um is outlined there, including just the general again pertinent information regarding the purpose of the application request. So those are all what's basically inside of the application and open gov as well. Um suspension of the rules, that's what kind of just mentioned. So you can suspend it by a majority vote um of the full membership. So you need three uh two to vote to suspend any rules that you have within here. You can also amend these rules. Um again the priority of laws like you mentioned earlier I think Scott and then the last page is just the adoption items here. So any questions or

we will blunder through. So we will need a motion to we need action on that. So we would request a motion to approve those. I move we adopt the rules and procedures as presented. Okay. Second. All in favor say I. I. No. They are adopted.

So four zero. Um the only other thing I had for you guys, I kind of gave you um kind of little info sheets uh four pages in front of you. One was just kind of giving an overview on three main kinds of applications you guys get, special exception, experience, development, standards, variance. And then the second uh the the preceding three pages included kind of a a a cheat sheet on the the big things to know about each of those three types of applications as well as sample motions. So, that's something I would say put in your your pocket of your binders. Um because we won't empty anything in the pockets if you remember. We're going to also put your rules and keep those though. But, um those are something you can reference or when you need to make a motion, you can pull out that special exception motion and it's a fill in the blank kind of choose your own adventure. Um but a defined manner so that we make sure we get the right kinds of things in that uh motion. So, just going to take 30 seconds really with you guys here on this that I scrolled too fast. Um, you know, the idea is like I move to you pick one. You're either going to approve it. Approve it with commitments and you're going to specify those or you're going to deny it.

The application number X number, whatever the application number is. It should have been the is a loose packet sitting at your table. Oh, there's an X right there, Rick. Sorry. Um, I'm not sure.

Yeah, I didn't want to put those in there yet. So, you can look through those, but um and then you would list what the special exception was, short-term rental, for example, based on the testimony presented by staff, the applicant, and if there's other testimony like did the public come up, you can add those in. Um you can add testimony by I had a site visit, you know, whatever that may be. But we're basically trying to make sure we get the right things in your motion that we listen to testimony by these people or these items. We we uh we went through the required standards of evaluation and the findings of fact which were reviewed and were presented by either staff as presented by staff, right? Meaning like the what you what was in your packets is what you're using as your findings of fact or you can modify those, right? You don't agree with the finding, you're saying I'm going to present as as uh presented by staff except for finding number two, it's going to be this, right? Um, so we provide those findings as guidance, but you can change those. Just if so, we want to list that very specifically in that motion so it's very clear. And then those correct findings of that get put into the minutes as well.

No more Mayberry. This hopefully makes it a little easy. Again, you have one sheet. If you know you're on special exceptions, you can pull that sheet out, kind of see what you need to be looking for, and then you have a motion that you can basically walk through. Um, with getting again all the information in is really the goal. Um, making sure we don't lose some leave something out of that motion. Any questions on those? So, put those in your back pocket or front pocket or one of the pockets. Um, and we'll make sure we we keep those in your binders along with the rules will stay in your binders, too. Yeah. All I got. Anything else? I move we adjourn. Second. All in favor say I.

I. Okay. Thank you guys. You good job with the rules procedures. Thanks. I know I take them. I used to do