Heritage / Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

7 p.m., and I'll call the London Dairy Heritage Historic District meeting to order for May 28th, 2026. And let's see. We have, I don't see Jim here. So I'll appoint David Ellis to vote for Jim Butler. and I don't see Krista here, so I'll appoint Denise to vote for Krista. And that gives us seven voting members. actually a full compliment and uh it's a forum and so we can uh make decisions uh tonight so uh first thing on the agenda is approval of the minutes from march 26 2026 if anyone has any uh any comments or corrections or anything uh i'll take them uh if not i'll take a motion to approve the uh minutes of march 26 20 uh march 26 2026. motion to approve Okay, motion by Ted.

Do we have a second?

Second.

Second by Sue. Seeing no discussion, will all those in favor signify by saying aye? Aye. Anyone voting no? Abstentions? Chair was affirmative, and the vote is 7-0-0. Minutes are approved. and next we have applications for advisory input to the planning board and this is emphasized we are only advised the planning board on on this so not that they follow us but i mean they have actually you know uh something that the heritage commissioner said was okay they have overruled said no we don't like that design so THAT HAS HAPPENED. SO WE HAVE A SITE PLAN FOR 105,000 SQUARE FOOT WAREHOUSE AND OFFICE SPACE ALONG WITH ASSOCIATED SITE PLAN IMPROVEMENTS. 12 JACKSBRIDGE ROAD, TAX MAP 15, LOT 103-1, ZONE 12 Jacksbridge Road LLC is the applicant and Charles H. Evans is the owner. And gentlemen can identify yourselves for our records and we will listen to you.

Absolutely. Good evening, everyone. My name is Attorney John Gala, and this is Tim Engelbert. He's our architect for the project. I want to apologize quickly just because our client, Tyler Murphy, was unable to make it tonight due to a scheduling conflict, as well as Attorney Laura Gandia, who has been the primary point of contact on this project. Nevertheless, we are here. So, as you mentioned, the site is at 12 Jacksbridge Road. It comprises approximately 11.8 acres. There are some wetlands that are located on the northeastern portion of the site, but those will not be impacted by any of the development. There's also a PSNH easement for the Public Service Company of New Hampshire that is located on the eastern portion of the site. The property, in terms of zoning, is all zoned industrial. And we are looking to develop this into a warehouse that it will be very similar to the one at 26 Jacksbridge Road, if you're familiar with that project at all. Just right off the bat, the proposal is very simple. And to the point, this is an industrial project in an industrial park in an industrial zone. And it will have a very similar feel again to that project at 26 Jack's Bridge that was previously done. In terms of some of the details, the proposals for a Class A industrial and contemporary building that is located within this industrial area of Londonderry. The design will support a modern flex warehouse with either light manufacturing or distribution uses. flexibility for one or two tenants here. There's a 36-foot clear interior height and a roof designed to accommodate future solar. So the building is planned for long-term adaptability. In terms of the exterior, there is a durable architectural concrete panel envelope with earth-toned pallets of soft white, gray, charcoal, and some textured accents as well. I'm sure Tim will go into a little bit more detail on some of that. The panel reveals, the vertical elements, florestry windows, storefront entries, and landscaped frontage that are all present on the building will help break down the scale to create a nice, neat, clean, and professional appearance. So the entire design has been developed with the Londonderry Zoning and Heritage Commission advisory comments in mind. This includes durable materials, subtle colors, articulated facades, uh... very thoughtful landscaping we've included nine lilac bushes as we know this mission is very fond of lilac so much uh... and uh... you know so we will have a very you know well presented functional yet flexible industrial building that will maintain a refined architectural character warming compatible with towns expectations so with that i'll turn it over to tend to go through the presentation of the building's architectural elements

Thank you, everyone. Tim Engelbert, Randall Paulson Architects, Nashua, New Hampshire. If we just start maybe with the larger pamphlet that was handed out, this one here. As we start to look at the building, you'll see it's 105,000 square feet, similar in scale to that 26 Jacks Bridge that is right down the street from a square footer standpoint. 185 feet deep for the building, 568 feet wide, which is a similar scale to that of the building as well. It's a single-story occupancy building with the majority of that roof sloping to the truck court area, which allows the watershed to be collected via the stormwater management systems. The roof is also designed to accommodate future solar, so that's something that we're taking into consideration with the design. And as we look towards that planned north wall, we'll see there are 30 dock door positions along it. We have two drive-in ramps and various personnel doors around the building just to accommodate life safety requirements and to meet code. If you look at the plan on the south side, you'll also see two grayed out boxes. Those are the office features. They are speculative at this time. But keeping them at those corners allows for flexibility of that tenant as we look at locating who that might be. Again, for the tenants themselves, like was mentioned earlier, be it industrial, light manufacturing, flex, super flex is a term we're hearing more and more these days. But those types of users. building itself concrete tilt up or precast type panels allows that durability and then if we shift to the third page let's see fourth page we can start to see what that building will look like in elevations as well um So that top view right there, that's the dock wall. That is not facing towards the street. That second view down, which is labeled as south elevation, is what faces to the street. And as you can see in that elevation, what we're using is some various colors, some texture changes through reveals to break up that facade itself. Those offices are located at the corner, so allow that flexibility. And the color palette itself is that earth-toned, neutral, light grays, granite-type colors to blend in, and similar context and color to the other buildings that we see around the area. That darker palette, similar to, for instance, the New Balance building, which is right down the street as well. And then if we shift to that last page, there's a... representation of what the building will look like. This is a Google Street View, which we've then superimposed the building onto. The landscape itself is a little bit of artistic talent on it, so look at the landscape plan for how that would look. But this is an actual view of the street and kind of just the general massing of what the building looks like. You can see it's very similar to other buildings in the area, especially in these industrial areas.

You see, it's looking down a lot. We have everything on the screens here also. Okay. It's not that we're going to pay. We're listening, but look into the visuals. Yep.

Take your time.

Okay. I'll start with David Colglazier and any questions.

I'm just wondering, can we ask about the stone walls?

Stone walls, okay.

On the property.

Stone walls on the property for the site plan. This is coming up awfully slowly here.

Drawing SV1 shows four stone walls.

It's just very slow to load the pages.

I haven't looked for them on the computer here, but I found them in the file at home, which should be the same thing. And if not, on the computer here, I show... Drawing C2.01. Yeah, I'm just trying to get... It shows them very lightly. And how they are going to be disturbed by different parking. There's some sort of settlement basin in the upper left corner of the drawing.

And then there So yeah, we have rock walls on the northern end of the property not north of your picture but north as a There's an L shape One short one and one other long, straight one. And then there's a tiny one on the very edge of the property that probably won't be disturbed.

It's not affected by anything in the drawings. But the other ones, one's about 220 feet long. The other one's about 200. And another one's about 60. They're affected, and the one up at the north edge or the top edge is about 30 feet.

Apologies. Did you guys locate where those are? That's plan SV1.

It doesn't look like I've got that sheet right in front of us.

Hmm.

I apologize. I do not have that sheet right in front of us either. Okay. In terms of any suggestions. Do you want to look at my small copy of it? Absolutely. Yes.

Right in there. That one you don't touch. These three are affected by it.

And then is VHB relocating these stone walls? Because I've seen that happen before.

I don't know what their plans are. So I guess that's really the question that Dave was looking for, is do you have a plan for the stone walls?

Well, it's a great question. We obviously want to.

If you have it, it shows on drawing where I have that. C2.01.

So the walls are certainly affected, that's for sure, by the plan.

Right. So there's a drawing, I mean, the building and everything in place, and then lightly underneath it, it shows those stone walls. Yeah.

So I think at this stage in the planning, in terms of the stone walls, I'm not sure if our client has a plan for where they're going to be relocated on the property, but we're more than happy to take any suggestions that the commission may have into consideration for the development of the plan moving forward. So with that being said, certainly open to suggestions.

So what can we recommend then?

Yeah, stone walls, we usually, well, first of all, tend to preserve them if they, you know, are interfering with what's going to be developed there. Then at least to utilize the stone on the site in a decorative type of thing. I see. One of the recommendations is like in the entrance to, you know, curve it in. You could kind of line it with that stone. I mean, have it alone? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But 220 feet is a lot. you know i'm looking at that road that the one picture where you superimpose the building on on the property there um you might consider putting something along that road

Yeah, repurpose them along the Jack's Bridge Road. That makes sense.

Right in front with all of our beautiful landscaping.

It would kind of blend in with your big blocks of stone, too, in a way. For sure.

Good catch, David. That's an excellent question, though. Thank you for bringing that up.

One of your drawings, I didn't... I don't have it in front of me, there are some notations about stockpiles of stone.

Yeah, that's on that same page. Yeah, it looks like there's two other areas with stockpiles of stone. Yeah. I see a third one, too.

Yeah, knowing BHB, it's something that they've taken into consideration and would likely discuss, too, at planning board, too, to see how they relocate it in or reuse it. Okay.

That's a good...

Good catch.

Glad you picked it up. Yes.

They can put little rock walls around their nine.

Yeah.

I noticed the building will be, the bays will be facing the highway, that direction, correct? And it looks like looking at elevations, we potentially might be seeing the building from the highway. Certainly the highways at about 310 feet and the building will be at a 330 feet of elevation Do you guys I'm not sure how much tree covers between the building and the highway, if you guys think that the building could be seen from the highway or not. And thank you very much for your lighting plan. It looks like with how this will be designed, it shouldn't really be affecting highway traffic with bright lights. Is that... The plan?

That's correct, yes. Everything in terms of the lighting plan was designed in accordance with all the municipal ordinances and regulations and is dark sky compliant. So it shouldn't be blinding flashing lights or anything like that.

Wonderful. There shouldn't be. Yeah. And I notice it's all downcast lighting anyway.

Mm-hmm. Yes. The fixtures, if you look at the lighting plan, there's some pictures of what will actually be mounted up on the building and by the parking lots. And they're almost like sconce lightings. As you mentioned, they're all facing down.

Yeah. And thank you for the radial of the lighting, of their distance that the light will be going out. That's helpful.

Of course.

And I like the colors that you guys have used for. The building, it certainly goes well with the industrial feel and mixes well with the New Balance building that is already built in town as well.

This rendering where the brickwork is you have a stone like an old New England stone wall Yeah, it seems like that might be that might be a good idea.

It looks it looks fantastic You do an extension off of that along Jack's Bridge Road We'll definitely pour that along to the clients I On the topic of stones, in terms of signage, both of the entries to the premises on either side of the road will have monument signs. We don't have a tenant in place yet, so obviously they may have their own branding or marketing preferences, but the signage will of course be done in full accordance with all of the ordinance's regulations that might be applicable there as well.

That comes to us, right? It still comes to us? Yes, the sign itself.

That'll come.

I'm all set.

Okay. John?

Is there a, when I look at the rendering of this building, it looks like there's a space reserved, maybe a little outline space. Is that for signage on the building?

The dotted lines?

The dotted line, little square?

Yes, potential future signage, and then that signage would be submitted at a future date for review.

Okay. And that is not... We'll let that go. So you are aware of the limitations in terms of the signage? Of course. Follow all of those.

So we show it too from a standpoint of a marketing standpoint because these views are also used from the brokerage teams to go to tenants. So they may want to see what are my options. So we'll show with the various options that they can review.

Um, two offices, we're thinking potentially two tenants or is this set up for more than two?

One to two tenants, um, with them being at the corners that allows for flexibility. So one could be, let's say 25,000 square feet and then the other tenant could be the remainder or 50 50 all the time. Or it could be one tenant that takes the whole space as well.

Okay. And a little beyond purview here, but future solar for the roof, why wouldn't solar be part of the initial plan?

Cost, and to be, as an architect, saying a response for why some developers don't design for future solar is cost. So from a structural standpoint, the engineer of record designs five PSF collateral load into the steel, so more steel for a building to accommodate future solar. What our developer's looking to do here is, day one, design that structure to hold that future load. Okay. I'm good.

You're good. Sue?

I think I'm good. I don't have any comments, I guess. It's good, I guess.

Yeah. David? I'm happy with it. Denise? Before taking everything you had.

Yeah, well, my two questions had to do with the signage, but that's being held off. And then the other was the...

uh... area luminary actually the roadway luminary how tall are those fixtures question i would say that being compliance with the poll height which off the top of my head i believe it's twenty five feet in londonderry uh... but they would be i'd have to go back and look not on the record but i should say twenty five feet 20 foot pole height, it's called out. There it is.

I know on the side where you face the I-93, as Ted pointed out, there's a slope there, which is probably very hard to In essence, I know we had, it could have been another one of Charlie's warehouses there, is to kind of make sure some of the spaces are filled in, use as much natural vegetation as possible. It's just so, I mean, the building looks nice anyway. He'd probably like to show it off, and sometimes people want to know what is there. But usually to use some of the landscaping to, you know, kind of blend in so it doesn't poke right out or anything.

Right.

Yep. Art, I have one last question. Will there be a plan to have a sign on the building facing the highway for the tenants at all? I know some of the buildings along the highway have had signs facing the highway.

I think right now it's unknown. In the elevation, we do hatch out a location where one potentially may be because it is unknown at this time. And just so that it was aware that maybe it would make sense for that tenant to have some signage that was exposed to the highway.

Sounds good. Thank you.

That was going to be my next question.

I'm thinking too fast for you.

So I would say that What we'll send to the planning board our recommendation is As presented, you know what we've done with the stone walls Utilize the stone, you know, you know if you're going to disrupt any stone wall use it and and part of the landscaping aesthetics and keep the natural New England look there. And then the vegetation on the side that faces I-93 is to make sure that it looks nice. That's what our bottom line is on if it looks nice, not an eyesore or anything. I know the building is not far from being an eyesore. But I say everything on the building is fine.

Mr. Chair. Yes, John. Would it be unreasonable to ask to see the final plan on the stone walls when you guys are done doing what you're doing?

Yep, because what you could always do is send a rendering of what you have for a picture to our staff, Planning and Economic Development Department. Absolutely. And they will distribute it to us. That's probably the easiest way. We don't need to have you come back in just for one thing.

For sure. We can do that.

Thank you. Any questions of us?

I think we're set. Okay, good. Wonderful.

Next stop is planning board.

Thank you all so much for your time this evening. You're welcome. Thank you.

Next we have is our adoption of rules of procedure.

I thought we already approved these. I thought we already approved these, Art.

I didn't see anything in the record at all. I have not looked at the tape, though.

Huh, I could have sworn in past meetings we had already gone over this.

That's what I was thinking, too, when I asked Kelly and, you know, it was Kristen who was there, and I thought it was deferred, that there were a significant number of folks that hadn't had a chance to review it, and it was pushed out.

Yeah, I don't think we, there would have been a record if we had adopted it.

You know what I'm thinking of? I'm thinking of the Criteria that we look at that's I think that's what we had approved. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes There's a red line version which I guess as far as I know Kristen did yeah, I'm looking at that now and there is a Like a completed one, but it's not I know that's missing on it, but I The notes I had, what I'll do, I'll go through each one individually and ask for any important, or I'll do, say, first page, anyone got any changes they want to make on the first page, it'll go to second page, and then I'll go through every one.

And you'll distribute that to us?

Yes, that should be, we'll have to do that probably the final adoption at our July meeting.

Yeah, well, that's touching on what I emailed you about, I believe, that I have a concern that the procedure needs to be such that we get to see any proposal that involves an item that's a historic resource on the town list or on the state list.

Yes, yeah. Because what I had talked with Kelly, and this was a little while back, was about in the staff protocol. Yes. When the plans come in. That's where it has to be done. Is that there'll be someone in the planning department That would go through the...

This is the lot. Does this lot appear in Emmett, or does it... A but one that appears, and then the same with the town list.

Yes, that's what Kelly's working on, but Kelly is going to be leaving us the end of June. I know, that's why I'm a little nervous. That's... Yeah.

Yeah. If we don't have that staff protocol, you say, then you could be missing an awful lot.

That protocol is what staff follows. So it's not part of our rules of procedure or anything. It's part of the procedure or the protocol that staff uses when a plan comes in. They've got a checklist and everything that they do go through. And Kelly did say she was going to put it on there exactly when I have no idea right now.

Yeah, but that needs to be implemented before we change from what we're doing at the moment.

Yeah. Two things. One is it would be interesting, I think, at some point in time to see that protocol, see what they do. I wouldn't mind seeing that. And then the second thing, with regard to what David is talking about, I'm assuming under that protocol we're proposing that every property be reviewed for inclusion on the various lists, the various historic lists.

Yes, because we'll have the Emmett list, which, you know, David has sent me some info, which he'll have to send out to us because we need to get to that. But combining Emmett along with our list of historical properties, so that if... or include everything that is historic, and that would flag on there, that would flag our staff to note that, and then to follow the procedure. So we would be able to get that, even on a subdivision plan, if there's a stone wall, that would come before us. If there's no stone walls, then we probably don't really need to see it. No. But all the site plans would have to come to us because that was, it has the landscaping, it has the architectural design, it has the signage, lighting.

which we would make a comment i mean if all the site plans are coming to us that would give us the opportunity to flag it i mean what i do is when i see anything like this come up i do my own check yes against emmet and the town list you're the only one relying upon now david yeah but that's not a good thing you shouldn't be relying on me firstly because i'm only an alternate anyway

No, but there should be at least like two individuals that are you know conversant in it and be able to find out within the staff, but We've got our limitations at the moment. So But when but mr.

It was my understanding that Planning was going to call out some site plans that might not come to us and Yes. There could be some.

Okay, so before you build on that thought, I'll give you the rest of mine.

Okay. My concern is that in the course of that culling out, we may have some historical properties or historical sites that don't come before us. So my proposal for the protocol would be every property should be reviewed against the lists, and we should get a positive affirmation from the planning department saying we checked it and there's nothing there, or we checked it and you guys should take a look at it, whether the property is coming before us or not. Yes. And I think that's why I would like to see the protocols and what Kelly's proposing, because I think that has to be done for every property that comes up.

Absolutely. That's very well put, John. That's what was worrying me.

Is everyone in agreement with that?

Sounds fine to me. I mean, as long as staff follows it.

Yes. Yes. So in terms of steps, what I would suggest, Mr. Chair, is let's get the protocol that Kelly has ideally put together so we can see it. And then if we want to modify it to include some sort of positive reporting function to us on the property, even if they're not coming before us, because they might not. But something that comes to us that says we've done the checking on all.

Yeah. It's only a check mark on two lists. It wasn't in Emmett. It doesn't abut Emmett. Or it wasn't on the town list and doesn't abut the town list.

Yeah. I mean, that sounds good to me. Does that sound good, Denise?

Yeah.

So we will delay on the rules of procedure for the moment until we have a defined protocol from our staff.

That's fine. Before we leave, are we leaving these?

No. I had several things. I just wanted to bounce off of everyone here. But you go first, John.

I would further propose I think this needs to be cleaned up and I think we have to bounce it back to them and just say this has to be put into some sort of a format where the redlining Matches up with the comments on the far outside there. They're all over the place as a matter of midstream It looks like we make a change from And I might be mistaken on this if somebody wants to correct me it makes a miss a change from the the Updated is in the far right column to all of a sudden the updated is within the body of the document that is

It goes goes back it's not consistent. Yeah, yeah I think I know is at the beginning of it says heritage slash historic commission Missing district in there That's a good catch too Then on the second page I Don't know I can't tell some of what's crossed out and isn't in the red and because the chair presides over all meetings, excuse me, and hearings, shall prepare with the assistance of the secretary an annual report, and shall perform other duties customary to the office, which the preparation of the agenda is the responsibility of the chair. And I know the planning board in here, the staff kind of prepares it, they have stuff lined up, and then When I've been chair of the planning board and then here, I went over it with Alicia. In fact, I gave her these two additional things under other business.

Yeah, yeah.

And I got two more, actually, to follow when we get that done. And I've told Alicia, and she's very, very good. She's the one that really does the agendas. And she kind of keeps like a running agenda. So she's starting to work on it. I mean, right now there's no site plan or subdivision review for us at the moment. And the other is down in, E is crossed out, and it's D, and it's a 4.5. Advise upon local agencies and other local boards. And all I put is as forwarded by staff, and that would be their input into it. Some things we already have, it mentions, like look on that page, the 4.2. We already have it. And then the other, I added several things in there. So this is really gonna be redone. Yeah. So it's, to me, so it's coherent. Because I was looking all over the place and I'm saying to her.

It's really hard to follow. Yeah.

So we'll carry on at our next meeting if there's any, you know, the procedure from staff has been developed. I think it's probably in a working stage, so, but because of the, the flux that's going on right now. That's right. Yeah. I'm having to do, spend more time in here, but that's part of the duties.

Mr. Chair, maybe what they could do if they clean up the red line version is give us a red line version and give us a hard copy with the correct stuff in it so we can all look at it. I'm still confused about C4.3.

it's not redlined in here it's just the planning board has requested and developed a review of those sections of the master plan which address historical and cultural resources and i said to you before the meeting i said that that's not their purview and that's ours plus yeah plus it's confusing you know i mean i had to read it three times to figure out what i think but um yes it does does need to it's not ready for prime time by any means

Action on that is send it back.

Yeah further development Okay, and the next thing we have is Our London Dairy lookbook and Alicia had downloaded the pictures she had I was noticing in for Ronnie's file.

The pictures are missing Click on the file for Ronnie. Those pictures are missing. Okay, there's nothing in the file. I Don't know what happened to his pictures

Good question.

I forget what he had submitted. I've got a folder here full of lookbook photos.

Yes, but when you go into that further and you click on the one for Verani, there's no photos in it.

Oh, okay, yeah. Is that the same with all those folders?

No, the other folder should have pictures in them.

Yeah, I only looked at the first one. Yeah, Verani has no pictures.

Yeah, don't know what happened to them, how they got lost. I was kind of hoping that this meeting we would have had a better updated document for us to review because this document is still from 2013.

Yeah, that was the intent. But basically, when you look through the photos, you can note what ones you don't like. Because these are actually Londonary pictures. The old lookbook that we use now are pictures taken from other places.

Is the criteria just that someone, one of us, doesn't like it or does like it? I'm a little troubled by that. I mean, I have very little artistic flair or ability And basically what I say regarding art and look and feel, you'd be well advised to ignore.

We have a lot of input here. I know when we did the first one, I think we took three, four, five meetings just sitting around and looking at all the photos.

It's an area where I rely on other people. I didn't know if we had some list of features somewhere that properties were supposed to adhere to.

So I remember back from three years ago, we had gone through all these photos, and we had decided to keep the photos that are in these folders.

Yeah. We did do an update on it, and I think we got some legendary ones in.

So really only, I guess, mine have a lot of non-landary photos, and I had pulled these images from the architect's DPZ who had originally designed Woodmont, and I had taken them from there. developments that they've done across the country that I felt their imagery were very much in line with New England field kind of buildings. So for example, the first image within my folder that is actually from down on the Cape, the project that is down on the Cape. I forget that exact name for it. It's the planning development on the Cape.

That's the one in Mashpee.

Yes, Mashpee Commons, thank you. So that first image there with kind of the clock tower, that is down in Mashpee Commons. And then some of the other images are from the Maryland area, but I felt like they were still New England kind of feel. And then I thought I had more pictures in here. I don't know what had happened to them. I guess they...

I I definitely I only have 2 left in my folder and I submitted more than.

Yeah, I don't know what happened to all the photos I had a lot more in here is not even my my file is there. Yeah, so I don't even know what has happened here so don't know what's happening up in the planning department can some be added to it. I had a lot more pictures. I'm kind of disappointed. Off the go back to my emails.

Yeah.

and find what I had submitted in, I guess. Hopefully I can get to those emails from a few years ago.

I know one of mine was the clock tower building, 102. Right.

So the last image I at least have in this folder is a look of an industrial building. This is actually Lonza out on the seacoast in the trade port, and I felt like this would be a good imagery for people to have when looking at the industrial buildings within town. very similar to what we just saw tonight with the exception of the roof lines on what we saw tonight I guess right I mean roof lines on industrial buildings can change depending upon what you need them for

We may have to change too because I think if some of these folks are serious about adding solar that lends itself more to a flat or Very slightly slanted roof rather than some of these peak things and some of the other things we've got.

Oh, certainly. Yes Yeah, peak roofs are not really going to be going Pleasant for commercial industrial going forward

White houses, green shutters, black doors.

Well, we are at 41, 42 degrees latitude. So ideally, that should be the angle that the panel's at.

It's interesting, not to go too far out, but I'm on the Energy Subcommittee of Utilities, and they're looking for buildings to put solar on top of. As a matter of fact, now there's a proposal for the addition, the school addition to this building. may end up with solar on its roof.

So, I mean, it's one of the more practical aspects. I don't think it's really, solar's really, architects haven't designed it into a building or anything, because solar, I mean, it's still definitely an add-on feature, but you look at some of the houses around town, a lot of them have solar. Oh, yeah.

You may remember the Technology Hill. They've included solar panels on top of all their buildings, but they've kind of hid them away with paneling around the edges of the buildings. So you can't even see that they're there.

Yeah, they did a good job. That's where I think solar designed into the structure.

Well, the Tesla solar panels are or just look just like new shingles.

That's right. Yes, they are.

They don't look anything like what what's on the buildings now.

That's correct.

Yeah. So That just blends into the house.

Yeah, you wouldn't even know that they're there.

Yeah.

But if need be, we could always ask them to do, like the market basket did, right, with that, I'm going to call it a fake, whatever that, on the roof floor, they did that. I'm going to call it, like I said, fake. Yeah. So to hide things.

So we can always... Yeah, because usually industrial buildings, or even some commercial ones, have the air conditioning and the heating units are on top of the roof, and they tend to hide them, or try to hide them.

But I think what John was also getting to is, on the residential end, is that there's a lot more residential to having solar panels as well. And so I think we may need to adapt lookbooks to be able to add that into their designs.

Yeah, how to fit solar in. I mean, we look to see what's on the internet for designs, solar designs, how they design it into the structure. I haven't gone that far, but I've looked at solar panels and I think the days are probably coming when they're made much thinner and probably even lighter so you don't have to have a heavier structure on the roof.

And I put them on my house and they're front facing to the road because that's where the sun is. But it also helps having black shingles and then having, we replaced our gutters with black gutters. And so all of it really blends in together.

Yeah. And talking with the builder down on the Cape, he was saying in Massachusetts, residential code now requires it to be able to support solar panels on roofs. Structurally? Yeah.

Yeah.

So for the notes, Mr. Chair, what is the next steps on the lookbook?

really is to, I guess, we need to select photos. I mean, I look at them and they all look good. But to be, you know, not to have a lot, but enough to give a good representation. What we could do is probably, you know...

We may need to submit more photos again or have Verani send his photos back. Yeah. Where are your photos?

Yeah, and mine. Mine were just some of the typical buildings on 102. I think there were a couple of industrial ones. There was the bank. The bank.

I remember you took the picture of the bank.

That, I think, is one of the most beautiful buildings.

What's that one called? Which bank? One next to Market Basket there.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

They just changed names.

Yeah, they changed names. Oh, really? Already?

Maybe Rockland. Oh, Rockland, yes.

Oh, geez, that was fast.

Yeah, I thought, wow, yeah, that one.

But the architectural on that building they did a great job with.

Yep.

Yep.

We can come up with a list of architects.

Yeah.

But I would say kind of go through these and note the file or something to identify it and say, I like this. Because once we get the photos, it's like placing them in a book. And I know when actually Kelly first started, we had submitted all these pictures to her, and she kept them because she and O'Chirsten were going to get Kind of a semi-book together. Oh, yeah. For the commission to look at. And, I mean, that has never come about. No, it completely fell to the wayside. Yeah, things have been busy. So, I mean, and I'm sure we're at the bottom of the priority list.

Well, I did put it onto the new strategic plan that the council is going to be approving that this is included in there, that I want to see this finished.

Yeah.

They've wasted enough time on this.

I think that's probably our prime goal is to get the lookbook finished.

And how can we have developers come before us with a particular look that they may be coming here that we're expecting if we're not updating it to what it should be?

Yep. Because I'd like to get to the point, the lookbook, it says everything. They look at it and they know how to design it. So they come in here and we love it, you know?

Yeah.

And then, because once we get it, you know, kind of assembled into a book, then we need to note the features that we like. So it will give guidance to a developer or a developer's architect.

I think one thing that occurs to me with respect to what you photographed that Maybe we should try to find buildings that you feel represent the Londonderry look and have been constructed in the last 10 to 20 years. Because techniques change, and it's no good showing them a bunch of photos that are 40, 50 years old and saying, this is the look we want, because they aren't going to get that.

That's a good point, too, yeah.

Yep.

And that's why the photos that I included were within the last 10 years.

Yeah, because, I mean, most of the good number of buildings on 102, even some of the newer ones going up on 28 are new, and they look good. They do blend in.

And the clock tower along 102, that building is now, what, 40, 50 years old?

Oh, my God.

It's got to be, yeah. Still a nice-looking building.

It is, but the architectures have completely changed. Oh, yes. So it's not really up to how architects would even design buildings these days.

Yeah, because that was, I think, in 86, 87. So it's 40 years old. I know because it was Dennis Sargent that did those. I was ex officio on the planning board my very first year.

So that was 40 years ago?

yep 86 yep my god it's as old as me yeah but again you've been around too long i've been around too long you know even a building like that though you could use that to highlight a feature or features that you might like like uh oh yeah a clock tower of course because you only have so many examples of those kinds of things so

It's kind of like what sticks out in your mind as representative of Londonderry. Kind of blend the classical colonial look in with some of the more, well, even commercial. There's some industrial there. They have certain types of designs and everything. And then there's going to be the practicality of the size that they want and what the whole dimension is and how to get it to fit.

it's kind of like i think architectural magic how the you know do the proportions and everything so our i think we're going to have to probably as a board spend more time on this unfortunately um i was hoping to try and conclude this but i think we may have to work a bit more on this as well and we may have to potentially unfortunately help the staff with this uh more than we want to so

Because it could be like one or two of us sitting down with staff right through it, you know, because you know what's And then then present it to the Commission and then see who likes it Right and I think you know potentially adding items within it for like Requesting more brick to be added to buildings if we can and

have more of that New England look. I remember when I was on the planning board, I was at least able to get them to put the brick on the Wood Partners buildings for the Alta Vista, for the corners. They certainly fought us on that, but the board was like, no, we need to at least have some texture and feel that this is New England with having our red brick on the buildings.

Get a little New England look and the contrast.

And I think the other piece to it... So, for example, if we're going to be going to... If there's any other PUDs that come before us, and if they come to us, I'd like to see, for the lookbook at least, if that's where they're starting, to have a consistent design throughout your project. That's one thing that I think we really missed with Woodmont, is we didn't require within their PUD to have a consistent architectural look, like what they have in Salem, New Hampshire, where all their buildings are the same architecturally throughout. So it looks like it was a... Fully planned out development where here it's becoming more mishmash.

Yeah, I said to myself, we messed up on that. I look at that all the time and I think, oh, that's awful.

Yeah, because there's definitely a mixture there.

So hopefully if it is within our purview to put that within the lookbook to have consistent architectural designs within your.

Project yeah, you know like the area the ability there's a consistency. Mm-hmm. I mean they did use some of the Designs I think out of Charlotte I did at least look at the plans that were submitted for the conceptual for the pod for off of Auburn Road and

And they at least look like they have a consistent architectural design throughout. So I was glad to see that. So at least conceptually, it'll be interesting to see once they actually come before us. But that's one thing I'd like to see going forward. If there's other plans in the future that we can hopefully put within the lookbook to have consistent architectures.

Yes. Because we have, you know, the village on Technology Hill, the consistency there.

Yep.

I mean, when they, I think, first, when Woodmont first came to us, was just really where the commercial on the first floor, then the rental units.

Right. But that was first originally designed and presented to the town that was going to have a consistent architectural look throughout the whole project. And now, I don't know why the developer is letting go of... the original plans from 2010, 2011 when DPZ presented it to us and they're letting whatever developers coming in that he's selling the land off to to have completely different designs throughout every little piece.

Because I know the Dairy Medical building, we had to fight for that design because they were going to build something totally... Oh yeah.

And at first, they wanted to put on basically barely any brick on that building, too. And Jim had to go down there and fight them.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, because he caught them a couple of times substituting for it.

Oh, yeah. I mean, thankfully, they did the right thing on the next medical building.

Yeah. But they had something they could follow. Right. And that's kind of like the theme we're looking for is that brick wall in front, you know, and, you know, a real formal, you know, entrance. Right. Even though the entrance is on the backside.

Mm-hmm.

Actually, that's a building we could probably take a picture of now with all the brick and courtyard effect on that thing.

I don't think that building was done when we first were doing our pictures. It was that long ago.

No, it wasn't, but I think it is a good representation of what we want. So you can just send your numbers in to me, I guess. I'll collect the numbers.

Pictures, you mean? You said numbers. You mean pictures?

Yeah, the pictures. Just pick a, I'd say half a dozen. A dozen at the most. Otherwise it gets a little overwhelming.

And if you can reach back out to Mr. Varani, if he can resubmit pictures.

Yeah.

As we clearly have lost them somehow.

I don't know what happened. Something didn't upload properly or... I mean, I've uploaded stuff before and they go right there.

Yeah. Or maybe they copied the folder but forgot to put the pictures in it.

Yeah, I was going to say, if you know when they were last there, I'm sure the IT department can pull them up from a backup.

One would hope. Mr. Chair, do you have anything further for us tonight?

Yeah, I've got one item before we close. It's fairly quick. at our last meeting we had a presentation from Elwood and at the tag end of it Jim Butler and myself asked if it would be possible to get in and take a photograph of the house before it was demolished and they agreed they said yes they would talk to the owner about it assuming it's not dangerous to do so and they were going to get back in touch with us they have not got back in touch with us so I don't know how we go about getting in touch with them and reminding them.

I'll send a note to Kelly. Okay. If she knows what's going on.

Well, if Kelly's busy trying to go on to another job, she may be otherwise engaged.

I think her attention is diverted.

How will we all get told this? Whoever sends something out about this.

If I find out, I'll let you know by email.

Okay, because I'm on the demo committee anyway, too, so I still don't know how they do it.

I think we actually got rid of the demo committee, correct? It all comes to us now.

Yeah, it was folded into this. We're the demo committee now.

It's supposed to go to the Historical Society now.

No. I was the town manager. It goes here. It comes to our committee.

Yeah, this one.

Yeah.

Whoopsie.

He might have misspoke.

He probably misspoke or he labeled us as Historic Committee and not Heritage Commission.

Yeah, I probably picked up on historic from the historic district part.

Maybe I was thinking it should go to historical.

But certainly historical society can have input on it. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, by all means. When I did it all by myself for five years, I was always thinking of the Morrison House, you know, what we needed, if we needed anything. Doorknobs or anything like that. I always kept that in mind.

Anyway. Assuming that the property is safe to enter it would be nice to get in and take some pictures They were positive in the meeting and I gave him a business card, but I just haven't heard about which properties again The old Elwood farmhouse on Elwood Road, that's right It's pretty well

Good scrap lumber.

Yeah, it's a pity. Be safe when you go there. It didn't look very safe. Be safe when you go there. It didn't look very safe.

Oh, yeah. No, I mean, if there's any concern on the owner's part about liability, then we stay away.

Good. John? As long as we brought up the demo committee. I think we're coming up on somewhere around a year since we blessed the demolition of the barn at Two Litchfield Road because of that horrible, hazardous situation there that we were told about by their attorney. And I drove by it the other day and doesn't look any better than it did a year ago, certainly, but it's still standing. So, yes, my question would be, do we rescind? I realize that's not part of the. It's not a heritage district anymore.

Historic district.

Historic district, I'm sorry. It's just a regular old barn we like.

But we did take action on it under our responsibilities as a demo committee. Should we be asking the building inspector, was up? The building was hazardous a year ago. Is it less hazardous today? Has some work been done to it? Or should we be rescinding our OK to demo that building?

I thought those demo permits had a time lapse on them.

I have to check on the building inspector.

I'd have to check.

Must be 90 days, but.

I thought it had expired almost. I don't know. If it's expired, the issue's mute. He'd have to come back before us again anyway.

I just thought it might be interesting to get an update, particularly where we had a pretty long presentation about fire hazard and the building falling down and the world is coming to an end. Let's do it, let's do it, and now we're a year later. I don't like to have somebody come in front of us and basically mock us with that kind of stuff.

No, I don't either, but on the other hand, I'm sort of a little pragmatic about it in that we don't have any... Formal ability to stop him doing it and if we draw attention to it, he might just pull it down Whereas if we don't draw attention to it, it might remain Yeah

There could be decisions not been made yet what to what to really do with it or yeah, there's other things going on there are still Pending litigation with the property owner as well. Okay, sir That could be that could be part of it.

So so I guess maybe they maybe the question based on that is Being pragmatic has our demo Authorization expired Yeah, that would be the thing to find out

But my inclination would be don't draw attention to it. With a bit of luck, you'll sell it to someone who cares.

That would be welcome.

I think he potentially was looking to wait until he was able to actually have a plan for the rest of the property and just take it down at that time. But it would be nice to know from the attorney upon what the plan is with that.

but yeah this thing has gone back and forth and around and around and i know but we don't have all the answers tonight for that no that's fine okay wait i have a few things to read to denise because she doesn't know these people come on cold turkey and they don't know what we like i'm just saying like the earth tone colors we like earth tone colors who's the expert Peaked roofs and no metal. Jim Schwabe and I always stuck together on the no metal. Because you've got Hannaford, who wears the signs, watch out for falling ice. So they look industrial.

But now they've got metal roofs that look like shingles.

In a rough surface. Pains in the windows is another one.

I would disagree with that.

Nope. Sandy Dalford, you guys, you know Sandy Dalford. She said that we do panes here in New England, quote unquote. She was right next to me. Good luck cleaning them. But the new ones are like between the glass and such.

Right, but it also blocks more visibility through the window.

Oh, big deal. We all have them in New England. I don't have them. Well, I do, but still, they look nice. They're more New England-y, but that's... What I said about panes and then brick and clapboards, loose neck lighting.

I remember reading something before I came on. What's the thing on the panes? Because my house doesn't have panes. Window panes? And nobody on my block has panes. Yeah, no. Not the newer.

I barely ever see them.

And I haven't seen any housing with panes.

And my house. So the only jurisdiction we have is not residential housing. Multifamily, yes. Commercial, yes.

And we've done it with those.

And industrial is kind of like a category by itself.

But the new things that are going up on Gilchrist, none of those have panes. Yeah, they do.

Some of them do.

Yeah.

Because I remember the builder was, I said, you overdosed on our lookbook. He did everything. It was the peaks and the panes. It was like boom, boom, boom, boom. I was like, oh, my gosh.

Sometimes what happens is that they go and do what they want. They don't follow the plans.

Yeah, but I thought I saw them.

That's up to the building inspector.

Who's the inspector now?

Oh, Nick.

Because the Denise, now that I know you have an email, I'll send you six or eight back copies of brilliantly composed minutes that you can review. Okay. But it's one of the quickest ways to see, you know, what the heck are these people talking about in these meetings?

As you come to more meetings, as time goes on, stuff starts to stick. My education was on-the-job training. But then, well, especially in planning and the planning board and ZBA, between the state and the municipal association, the Office of Planning and Development at the state level, they have seminars you can take and everything. In fact, I just got through the... Oh, the annual Planners Conference. Actually, it was in May. It used to be in April all the time. But most of them are by Zoom or Teams. So you can take the whole thing in the privacy of your own comfortable house. But there's a lot of sad things I spend up in Concord. Oh, boy. Oh, jeez. that's it also go online the state look under you know the Office of Planning and Development that's more of a planning zoning board function and then there's the State Division of Historical Resources I did go into those sites I think I gave that yeah yeah but there's not a lot there I mean it's it's like two paragraphs or something Right. It's like delving into it. Sometimes you go on, you know, Google things. It'll bring up, you know, like a section that, you know, I go on their front page and I can't find things I'm looking for. Then I'll Google it and it takes me right to where I want to go.

I did look around and I did read, but there wasn't a lot that...

It's like trying to use the statistics. It's like they get a lot of numbers, but organize it and what you want, want from it. So we'll send the pictures you like to me. I'll accumulate them. And then at our next meeting, we can kind of discuss them.

Sounds good.

Kind of assimilate things in a sequence of what we like.

Yeah. I'll step back from that, I think, unless you want some pictures of cottages with thatched roofs.

We got a little patch roof village. Another PUD. Okay, seeing no one in the public here. We have no public input.

It's rowdy out there.

If not, anything else from the commission? I'll take a motion to adjourn.

Motion to adjourn.

Second.

Second by Ted. Second by John. All those in favor, say aye. Aye.