Municipal Council - Regular Meeting

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Council meeting for August 18, 2026. And we're going to start with an open ceremony from Tron Arnold with the Alzheimer's Association. And then he will lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance after his presentation. Tron?

Council members appreciate the time to talk. So I'm Tron Arnold. I work just here on Main Street, not too far away, but I volunteer for the Alzheimer's Association every year because they have a great cause. They are looking to provide research and funding for new treatments and hopefully someday possibly a cure for Alzheimer's. But they also offer a lot of support to those suffering from Alzheimer's as well as those caregivers who take care of those with Alzheimer's. So it's a great cause, but every year, nationally, they do a bunch of different local, they call it the Walk to End Alzheimer's, amongst other events, but this is their big one. And for Cache Valley, our walk will be September 8th, sorry, September 19th at Merlin Olsen Park at 10 a.m. It usually goes for a couple hours. The idea being there'll be some local vendors there who support some booths, individuals. Anyone can really start a team that will walk along the route. And the idea is that everyone will wear purple, which is the color of Alzheimer's Association, and try to raise more awareness and funding for research. So that's what it's all about. but wanted to make you aware that it's coming up and give an opportunity to maybe ask any questions if you had any of what it's about if you weren't already familiar with it. Kind of short and sweet, I guess.

But any questions? Any questions for Tron?

How are you earning the money? I'm sorry, I might have missed that, but people are making a team, so they pay for that, and then are they asking for donations, the teams?

They will never turn away donations. When they allow local businesses or individuals to start up booths at the walk, and so you can have local businesses run a booth where they can kind of promote their own business or cause, and It costs a little bit to start up a booth, and so that funding goes to the association. And then you can start up a team. So, for example, I start up a team, and then I donate, say, a little bit of money to it, and then I try to get more people on my team who will also donate and come to the walk to participate. The more people we get there, the more we're seeing, the more the community can see Purple and start to learn more about it.

Do you have any of your information available in Spanish?

Yes, I don't have any with me right now, but yes, we do. We have some flyers in Spanish.

Thank you.

And do you have a website, correct?

Yes, it's alls.org, A-L-Z.org. Okay.

And that's the local chapter?

No, they have the search bar where you can search your local walk, and then so you'll have the Cache Valley walk to end Alzheimer's. Anyone can start up a team. Technically, it doesn't take any money to do that, but they're always looking for more donations if they can.

Thank you, John. I appreciate it. Yes, please.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you, John. I appreciate you coming in today. We'll now move on to acceptance of the minutes from our last meeting and approval of the agenda, as well as acceptance of the minutes from our Truth in Taxation meeting on August 11th.

I move acceptance of the August 4 and August 11 minutes and approval of the agenda for this evening.

I'll second that. We have a motion and a second. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Minutes are approved and the agenda is accepted. or other way around, minutes are accepted, agenda is approved. Our regular 2026 meeting schedule is the first and third Tuesdays at 5.30 PM here in the council chambers. And our next meeting will be September 1st at 5.30 PM. This time on our agenda is for questions and comments for the mayor and council. During this comment time, you're welcome to come to the microphone. Please state your name, your city of residence. And we're asking that you keep your comments to under four minutes today. And we also ask that you keep your comments to items that are within the purview of the council and the mayor and items that are not already on the agenda for this evening. And with that, I will open up our questions and comments. And the microphone is the public's.

Hi, I'm Gail Hansen from Logan. And I was wondering if we are using flock cameras or other surveillance cameras. And if we are, if we are obligated to share the information we gain to other agencies, if we have a contractual obligation. And that was it.

Thank you, Gail. Given I think we have a lot of comments tonight, we're going to have staff get back to you on that one. Is that okay?

Yeah.

Thank you, Gail.

I don't know where to start. I think I sent everybody, except for Eugene. I don't know if you got my email. It came back with an error saying that it didn't go through.

Then I didn't get it.

You got an important vote tonight, so I've sent you guys all letters hoping to try and persuade you from the decision that's going on tonight. Multiple, multiple reasons. I'm gonna try and stay off the topic. With the topic of that vote going on tonight, I'm hoping that you take what I wrote seriously. I think that, you know, I remember campaigning, you know, a lot, you know, over the past three, last two times, and open space coming up a lot, you know, support open spaces. I think we should continue to support open spaces, even if it's not based on a tax incentive. When is this growth going to end? Is it going to end when this place looks like Salt Lake City? I mean, I wonder if that's the course that we're going on, we might as well just go all out. Maybe we should get some 20-, 30-story buildings downtown. We're looking at Salt Lake City, we could do another 20-30 density units. When are we going to start preserving this place that we claim that we love? Your vote tonight is actually going to determine a lot of how these things are going to work. You know, we are, this is a huge bird migratory pathway. Every year, you know, I don't want to tell, you know, I want people telling their grandchildren about the wildlife that exists here to look it up online, you know, because it no longer exists. Because, you know, we poisoned our wildlands because we have just, you know, turned everything into into, you know, construction. I think, I'm hoping that you guys truly consider your vote tonight on this topic. And I hope that, I really hope it's to preserve what we have left because we have sacrificed a lot. over the years with this place. I'm not going to stick around for the boat. I'm afraid I will throw a total temper tantrum if it goes any other way. So, ciao.

Thank you, Josh. Thank you. I appreciate your emails and discussions and the whole thing.

Good evening, Mayor Anderson, members of council.

My name is Megan Carollo, and I own property at 1233 Canyon Road in Logan. And I know I'm new to this room, but I know a couple of you are new to your seats up there. So I'm hoping we can find some footing on this matter together. A little bit about me. My great-great-grandfather was Herman Johnson of Herms. I'm sure you're all familiar. His daughter Hermaine was my great-grandmother. Her daughter Leona was my grandma. That makes me the fifth generation on Canyon Road. So needless to say, this neighborhood is really special to me. Tonight I'm here because I have a petition with 50 signatures requesting proof of the 99-foot right-of-way on Canyon Road that's needed for the streetscape portion of the first dam tank and water line project. These signatures represent the people most directly impacted by this project. And under Utah law, the party asserting the right-of-way bears the burden of proving it. In this case, that's the city of Logan. So if you live on Canyon Road and you're here tonight, will you please raise your hand? Hi neighbors. So why are we all here and why a petition? To date, I've met virtually to discuss the scope of this with the project team. I've requested proof of the right of way through an attorney. I've gone through mediation with the state Ombudsman's office trying to resolve this. Myself and neighbors have property surveys done that show a right-of-way on Canyon Road significantly less than 99 feet, verifiable by recorded plot maps and confirmed by every survey done in the past 70 years. Notably, that includes a survey of Mayor Anderson's property that was done in 2024 showing a right-of-way of 60 feet on Canyon Road. So now it's not just me asking, it's all of us here and everyone who signed this asking, in good faith collectively for this piece of information. Just provide the proof of the right-of-way on Canyon Road. To be clear, this isn't about the design. It's about the fact that this design is relying on a right-of-way claim that hasn't been proven. Continuing to move forward or turning a blind eye to this detail opens the city up to liability. The design can be challenged. Resulting in unnecessary costs to taxpayers and legal fees, delays, and a loss of trust And that falls on this council. I know not all of you were part of the decisions that started this project and regarding this project, but this is where we're at now and it's gonna fall in your hands. So if the city holds the reported right of way sufficient for the design, produce it. It ends the legal question immediately and the project proceeds on solid ground. If that doesn't exist, That's what I'm knowing now, not later. And that doesn't mean abandoning the vision for the streetscape for Canyon Road. All it means is working within different parameters. So prove it. That's what we're all asking. Just provide the documentation for a project that impacts our homes every single day, now and in the future. This is a document the city should have had before the project began, so Chairman Johnson, This is a little bit on you. I'm asking you to put this as an agenda item for a future meeting. Give us a clear answer on the right-of-way. And let's work through the rest of this together the way a community should. I'm also providing a sheet noting the relevant constitutional protections for private property. We're all granted under the US Constitution and the Utah State Constitution for your reference and the survey of marked property showing the 60-foot right-of-way. Thank you for your time.

Thank you, Megan. Thank you.

Seeing no one else moving for the microphone. We will close the questions and comments for the mayor and council. I've taken notes on all those comments and we can reach out to those of you that have commented. So thank you for that. We'll now move on to our mayor and staff reports.

And I will hand the time over to Mayor Anderson for his comments.

Updates. Thank you. We have some special visitors tonight. The Jarens, Jaren and Julie Taylor, excuse me. And they are with JustServe. And this year, Logan City has committed to do as many hours of service we could possibly do. In fact, our goal is very, I would say, I'm trying to think of the right word. Ambitious? Very ambitious. There you go. Thank you. That's the word I was looking for. But we're getting close. We're getting there. So service has been very important for us, and we're partnering with JustServe. And if you would like to present, that would be wonderful. And then I'll talk about the proclamation that we have afterwards. I couldn't think of ambitious.

That's okay.

Well, my name is Jaron and this is my wife, Julie Taylor. And we're grateful for this opportunity to explain the possibilities of Just Serve and how we can work together with the city of Logan. Just Serve is about connecting people who are willing to volunteer with organizations and people who need the help. Before we get started, we would like to acknowledge and thank each of the city council members for your service to our community. The rest of us, most of us have absolutely no desire to campaign or run for election. Fortunately, for the rest of us, we don't have to run for election to serve our community. There are countless ways we can all step forward, lend a hand, and make a difference. Sometimes we can simply just serve. And that is really what we are here to talk about today. In January, Julie and I were asked to serve as just serve specialists, just serve representatives for Cache Valley. And shortly after that, we heard Mayor Anderson speak to a group of nonprofit leaders, and he explained that when he entered that office, he challenged Logan City employees to personally provide 250 hours of service in the community each year. Very ambitious. He talked about several of the benefits that come when we give our time to serve others, both for the people receiving the service and for those providing it. He then gave each of those leaders a challenge. He asked us to help identify meaningful service opportunities for Logan City employees, residents, and especially for the youth who are the future of our community. He said, we simply need more service projects. As JustServe representatives, Julie and I took that challenge seriously, and it fits perfectly with what JustServe is designed to do.

Over the past few months, we've had the opportunity to become acquainted with hundreds of nonprofit organizations and nearly 50 different faith groups throughout Cache Valley. We meet regularly with many of these groups and collaborate on ways that Just Serve can help connect willing volunteers with meaningful and memorable opportunities to serve. Hundreds of these local needs are listed on JustServe.org. That's a website that updates continuously as new projects and events arise in Cache Valley. Anyone visiting that website for the first time would likely be amazed, as we were, by the sheer number and variety of ways to make a difference right here in our community. At the same time, it was disheartening to realize that these vital opportunities remain hidden away on a website that most people simply don't think to visit on a regular basis. To give these local needs the visibility they deserved, we launched dedicated Facebook and Instagram pages under the name Just Serve Cache Valley. Our goal is simple. By bringing these service opportunities directly into the everyday social media feeds of Cache Valley residents, we hope to connect more people with meaningful ways to serve. The community support for these new accounts has been really encouraging. Local influencers have stepped up to share our posts with their followers helping us connect with a much broader audience. However, currently there are far more opportunities to serve than there are volunteers available to meet those needs. So our challenge has changed a little. Rather than trying to find more service projects, Sorry, rather than trying to find more service projects, we are now trying to find more willing hands ready to step forward as volunteers. One of these projects we've recently posted is actually for the Alzheimer's Walk to find more volunteers for that. If you haven't connected with these pages yet, we invite you to follow Just Serve Cache Valley on Facebook and Instagram. It's an easy way to discover local needs, see featured service projects, and find simple ways to make a difference in Cache Valley. These accounts are currently connecting over 1,100 followers with community updates and needs.

We recently saw just how powerful that connection can be. During the fires on Canyon Road, I was standing on a cliff in Puebla when I heard Mayor Anderson talking with his wife as they nervously watched the flames getting closer to their home. I remember she said, do you think we should go on the other side where the firefighters are? And the mayor said, you know, that is the last thing they need is to have the mayor telling them what to do in an emergency. And I thought that was perfect.

Pretty close to my exact words.

So we had a brief discussion about the fire in the evacuation center. It is during moments like that when we become especially grateful for firefighters, emergency personnel, and volunteers who step forward to protect the people and things that matter most. After talking with the mayor, I drove down to the local state center where I met with Ron Gonzalez, the Logan City emergency manager. He and several CERT team members, volunteer members, were coordinating with the Red Cross and local church leaders to set up an evacuation center. It was impressive to watch volunteers church leaders, nonprofit organizations, and city officials working side by side with the same goal. That is really the spirit of Just Serve. I then reached out to my wife, Julie, and asked her to post a picture of the fire along with the address of the evacuation center, the shelter on Just Serve Cache Valley social media pages. Well, those social media pages are still relatively new, but that single post has received over 130,000 views. To us, that demonstrated that the Just Serve Cache Valley social media pages can be a powerful tool to promote awareness of service opportunities. People want to help. Sometimes they simply need to know where to go and what is needed and how they can get involved. That is exactly the gap that Just Serve can help fill. In fact, our very next post encouraged people to sign up for Everbridge, Cache County's emergency alert system. This helped educate the community on how they could receive important information during future emergencies. And again, it was simply about connecting people with information and opportunities that can help strengthen our community. Although Logan City has not officially become a gesture city yet, I think we still need a signature. That hasn't stopped us from already working together. One great example is the upcoming America 250 and Cache Valley Days of Service on September 11th and 12th. Russ Akina, Logan City's Parks and Recreation Director, along with Dana McKinnon, have been instrumental in identifying and providing many meaningful service projects for the Cache Valley Days of Service. This is exactly the kind of partnership we hope to build upon with Logan City. Logan City understands the needs of our community. Non-profit and faith organizations understand many of those needs as well. JustServe can provide another piece of the puzzle by helping connect those needs with people who are already and willing to serve. When Mayor Anderson first challenged us, he said we need more service projects. After spending the past several months getting to know the organizations throughout Cache Valley, we have some good news. The projects are here. The needs are here. And we believe the volunteers are here too. Our job is simply to connect them. And we can just serve and the City of Logan can do that together. There is one more way we'd love to work together and that is we would love to regularly recognize the youth and other members of our community who go above and beyond in serving others. There are people throughout Logan quietly doing remarkable things that make our community better. We believe their examples deserve to be shared and celebrated. We propose that on a regular basis, we highlight individuals and especially young people who just served to make the city of Logan an even better place to live. Hopefully by sharing their examples, we will inspire others to step forward and discover for themselves the joy that comes from simply serving. We invite everyone to follow Just Serve Cache Valley to discover new and exciting ways to serve and help make our Valley an even greater place to call home. However, we do caution you about service. It can be highly infectious, and we hope you get infected by it. Thank you.

Before you sit down, service is a high priority and JustServe is a high priority for me and for our city. And so I've signed a proclamation that says that the City of Logan commits to promoting volunteerism, leveraging JustServe.org to make it easier for residents to find and engage in volunteer opportunities and will regularly acknowledge and celebrate the contributions of volunteers. So thank you so much for coming. And we're going to try and get as many people to these activities coming up. We've got some amazing service opportunities on Friday, September 11th and September 12th coming up. And let's see if we can fill every slot and then some for people that want to get out there and serve.

Thank you.

Yeah, so thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate the information.

Thank you.

Next report that I have is on the Logan River Watershed Plan and Paul and Zan, please.

Good evening. Long time no see. Absolutely. I believe all of you are familiar, at least to some degree, with the Logan River Watershed Project. It recently completed a public comment period as part of its process. And so we thought the timing was good to invite the project team. This is Zan Murray with JUB Engineers. He's the project manager. To come and just give an update to the council, an opportunity for you to get caught up on it if needs be and also to ask questions with it as well. So I'll turn it over to Zane.

Thanks Paul. I have a sheet. There's two separate sheets. I'll send the first one down. Just take one. And what I'm sharing with you are a couple of fact sheets that We prepared, these are a little bit older. They were prepared probably about a year, year and a half ago, but they give an overview of the project and a lot of what I'm going to talk about tonight. And this is just for your information and perhaps you have questions that I might not get to tonight for sake of time. But if you do have additional questions, by all means check in with the project team and myself for sure. So with that being said, we're just going to thumb through a handful or a dozen slides here and then leave it up to you to answer any questions you've got. So the first thing I want to recognize is that this is an NRCS project for the Logan River Watershed Draft EIS and EIS Plan. This program that we are engaged in here is a funding mechanism through the NRCS to take care of different priority activities and we'll talk about those in just a second.

Hey, Sam. Yes. Just for the sake of everyone, would you just say what NRCS is?

Great question. It is Natural Resource Conservation Service. And it's federal government. It is. That's correct.

Thank you for that. How often do they do these types of projects?

How often do they do these types of projects? I was just curious. This particular program was implemented in 1953, revised in 1983, and then brought back to active funding in 2017 or 18. So it's a mechanism and a program that NRCS uses to do different things.

Nationwide.

Yes, that's correct, nationwide. That's right.

So you're saying they've been doing this for a long time.

Yes, quite a while. So I just wanted to highlight the fact that this is a community project. The sponsor is Cache Water District. Nathan Dauks from the district is here with us today. It also includes Logan City, North Logan City, Hyde Park, and the Crockett Avenue Irrigation Company. Gordon Coulson, the president of the irrigation company, is here with us today as well. I also want to recognize Kyler Olson. He is a team member to JDB through Franson Civil Engineering. We've been partnering on this project since 2016. Just to give you a little bit of a sense of the history behind this. So the next slide I want to share with you is a little small and I apologize for this. But this is the overview of the preferred alternative. And what I want to highlight here is that there are three main components of the watershed program that are that are engaged by this environmental impact statement and potential project. The first is flood control. That is the primary flagship of the program to take care and address flooding. As such, the NRCS funds construction improvements related to flood control at 100%. Another portion of the program is agricultural water management. We're dealing with agricultural irrigation. That is funded at 75% And then another portion of the program that we've enlisted in this project is recreation. And that's funded at 50%. So there's a significant amount of benefit financially that comes. to entities that are able to engage in this program if the projects are funded.

Is recreation 15 or 50?

50. Great question.

And the communities have to come up with the other portion of any funding?

The sponsors and co-sponsors would work through that and come up with that additional funding. That's exactly right. Great clarification. So as we went and started working on this project, I mentioned that it started in 2016. Crockett Avenue Irrigation Company enlisted JDV in France and civil engineers to do a study on pressurized irrigation in their service area, which is essentially the twin canals which run approximately second east-west from approximately Center Street all the way out through Hyde Park. At that point in time, we prepared that study. It appeared to be feasible and something to continue to pursue, and then this funding source was available at that time, so we made an application to fund, to start the process to receive funding through the watershed program, and that grant was given in 2000 and, let's see, 2020. is when that was offered up. So we've gone after funding twice. We received funding on the second application. So the purpose of the project, as we go through an environmental impact statement, you have to define a purpose and need. And so the primary purposes that are identified for this project include protecting water rights, which we have limited rights within the valley. We have limited culinary water resources. We have different water resources, but culinary water resources come at a premium. because you don't have to treat them. Put extensive dollars and cents into getting it to a drinkable state. There was a lot of deteriorating infrastructure. A lot of canal and other irrigation infrastructure has gotten older. Some city infrastructure continues to age and needs to be replaced, and so this project can help mitigate some of those costs. There's also culinary and wastewater treatment costs and delivery costs that can be offset underneath this project. There's a lot of money that's spent in the wastewater treatment plant that Logan City has, ongoing costs, and there's some benefits that come with that that we'll talk about in a minute. And then there's also flood activities that are beneficial here as well. There's flooding that occurs off of the canals as flood water or storm water enters into those canals. They rise above the banks, they top, and then they can cause flooding to homes and different things. So if you look at this map closely, and I apologize the colors are fairly close, the items in purple are related to the agricultural water management or irrigation portions of the project. The items in blue down by the sewer lagoons indicate an ability to store water there, approximately 2,100 acre feet of water. The items in red, are flood control projects. So this includes an overflow of the canals crossing 1800 North and North Logan to alleviate water that's coming from Logan and moving to the north. It provides an overflow, if you will, that goes to the west in that area. You can also see that there are a couple of projects down in the island area in Brown, highlighted with number 11 and 12. Those are recreation projects that include extensions of the trail along Canyon Road between Center Street and 6 East. and also a revised and updated bridge over the Logan River near River Hollow Park and a connection from River Hollow Park down to Crockett Avenue. Those two projects are identified in the existing city's trails and transportation plans. So I want to take a few slides to show you what the benefits are with the project. One of the project benefits as we talked about is flood control. This was just back in 2023. Hard to believe that we had this situation after we just got through this last summer and winter. But we did hit flood stage, nearly 1800 CFS. This project will improve the diversion structure so that it will be able to pass flows and debris a lot easier. It will also be able to divert water into the Little Logan River, or canal as you want to call it, as it has done in the past. An interesting thing about this process of going through the EIS, the NEPA process goes through and provides opportunity for a lot of public input. we received public input early on in the project and we continue to talk with constituents throughout the development of the eis and continue to get input on the project as well one of the key things that we heard was the ability to continue to have water flow through the little logan And as such, we included reconstructing the diversion structure as part of that project. It was an important amenity to the local community. It's an important amenity to the city with regard to parks and even the entire county because water that's diverted from this location covers Denzel Hansen Park, Merlin Olsen Park. It goes through the Cache County Fairgrounds and then onward to the zoo. and Willow Park in that area. So there's a lot of benefit that comes from having water able to flow through that. We recognize that and incorporated that particular part into the project to meet those needs. I mentioned flood control is the flagship of the project, or the program. You can see this, this is a map. If you look at the upper colored line, that's the Logan River, and then south and east of that is the Thrushwood areas. The map on the left shows the current flood conditions where there needs to be flood insurance. And the map on the right shows the reduction in flooding that occurs because of the project. So that takes approximately 28 to 35 homes out of the floodplain, which is beneficial to citizens in the area so they don't have to have that flood insurance. As we continue on to talk about the benefits, we mentioned culinary and wastewater treatment costs that can be reduced. Annually, we estimate between the three communities that are involved with the project savings of $650,000 in water treatment costs. We estimate $1.35 million of savings in wastewater treatment costs because of all the energy and power and chemicals that have to be added into the wastewater treatment process. That's pretty significant savings on an annual basis. The benefit lifecycle of this project is estimated over 50 years. So you can take those numbers and start to see what that is over the lifetime of the project and its lifecycle. Last but not least is actually just raw infrastructure costs that need to be developed and put in. If this project were not to go in, it's estimated that about $85.5 million of infrastructure and capital projects would just need to be built. That might include water pipelines, water treatment plants, additional storage. Other things like that can be offset because of the project benefits that come by using secondary water that doesn't have to be treated, power doesn't have to be put into the systems. And so it's using the right kind of water for the right kind of application. And that's the benefit that comes here. If we go to the next slide, this just indicates a little bit of what I shared earlier in the slide before, that sometimes these projects come with an increased cost upfront, but as you think about the prioritization and the water usage, the capital infrastructure costs over time are lower when you look at secondary irrigation systems. So we might have an initial investment that's a little bit higher, but in the long term we see significant savings as we saw in those numbers previously. I wanted to talk for just a second about environmental benefits. These are important and I'll share some pictures with you in just a second. Going back to the purpose and need of the project, saving water and securing water rights, nearly 5,400 acre feet of water will be saved by making the system more efficient in delivery. The other thing that's important to recognize is that this project puts 25 additional cubic feet per second of water in the Logan River. Based on studies, that improves the quality of the fishery and the waterway from maybe an average or poor condition to a good condition. And we've worked with Bethany Nielsen at Utah State University as she has studied this extensively, and Darren Olson from BioWest who was involved with the CAP project that analyzed the Logan River. The other thing that was important, again based upon feedback from the community, we planned through that diversion that we would build in the Logan River an additional 5 to 10 second feet of water that could be delivered to continue to keep those waterways flowing and that recreational benefit in place. And you can see some of those other benefits that exist including sediment removal on First Dam and additional water to Great Salt Lake. I mentioned earlier the 120 miles worth of pipe that would be installed, which is a significant amount of pipe and additionally the 2,100 acre feet of storage.

Zan, what's the capacity of the Little Logan, like a safe capacity? Have you studied that?

Say that one more time, I'm sorry.

The Little Logan, what's its capacity? Because people think, 10 CFS is like tiny, but how much can it actually?

So as it operates now, as it acts as a canal and diverts water into its, you know, the canal facilities at the diversion, it'll carry up to 90 second feet. And then like any good canal, as you get closer to the end, the capacity drops. And so it gets narrower and smaller as we go. So 90 CFS at the diversion, and then as the area continues, its capacity would decrease. Now, the Little Logan is interesting, and I'm not an expert in that particular channel, but it's been there for a lot of time, right? It's wide. and not very deep, wide and shallow. And that affects the capacity of that to carry water. Right. And what to do. So that's a great question.

I was just curious, yeah.

Yeah.

So currently, right now, how much is flowing through it right now?

Great question. Why don't we jump into the next slide and talk about that for just a minute. So currently, I went out last week and snapped some photos. Not these particular photos, but the ones in the next frames. Currently the diversion at the river is flowing at 51 cubic feet per second. Down at the Cache County Fairgrounds there's another measuring device there. It's measuring at 6.3 cubic feet per second. And so a lot of that water that comes in the 51 cubic feet per second that's maybe being diverted gets routed into the canal system and heads north to North Logan and Hyde Park and feeds the other irrigation canals and ditches within the city. So there's some key diversions, one of which is just west of Jens Johansen Park where the flow significantly drops because Most of that flow is diverted to serve the irrigation users to the north underneath their water right that they have.

So when you say that it will maintain a base... Like a base flow?

Of ten. Five to ten second feet is the plan.

What happens when it reaches these locations? How much will be flowing at these locations?

So the diverting would occur at the river, that 10 second feed. Now currently there's a lot of water that's peeled off and goes to different ditches. So it starts at 51 and ends up at 6.5 or 6.3 down at the Cache County Fairgrounds. That's because there's irrigation diversions pulling water off. there's some water returning, different things are occurring in that regard.

I'm sorry, a lot of numbers here. So currently at the diversion, it is what?

51 feet per second.

But you're saying with this change is going to make it 10?

It will reduce it in that location.

Which would make this like zero.

Well, let me clarify what that is.

That's why I brought these pictures. That's why I'm like a little confused. Somebody behind you is trying to stand up.

But they're also currently pulling water out. Melissa, they're pulling out 50 and then pulling out 10 here. Which they won't be pulling that out. Which they won't be doing.

You're a lucky guy.

Okay. That's what I'm trying to say. But I'm curious.

We are currently preparing a map that shows the historical flow rates for each of the different sections. That information is forthcoming. It's going to be super helpful. There's been a lot of confusion about what areas have what capacity. From our study, there's maybe a half mile out of four and a half miles of Little Logan that has a capacity of over 15 cubic feet per second. almost maybe 80 to 85% of the low gain in the capacity is around 5 to 10 CFS. So in the majority of it, it'll be basically about the same amount of flow.

So obviously there's water loss through evaporation and seepage throughout. So if you pull out 10, what do you expect to be at the fairgrounds? on a typical July day. And I know I'm making you do math in your head, but like, would you expect five at the fairgrounds? Would you expect eight? Would you, I mean?

It's so hard to tell. I understand. Give me a range. And the other thing is that, you know, it doesn't preclude any future projects where we come in and line. Like if we feel like we're losing all that water and we're putting in that five or 10 CFS and we feel like there's a spot where there's a lot of water loss, we could come back in and line that area and make sure that flow keeps going downstream.

because would that funding be included in i'm assuming under this project so we'd have to find a way to fund that right yeah but there's plenty of there's plenty are you willing to give me a rough estimate of what you think might be at the fairgrounds with not right now can you get that for me uh

Actually, I think that might be difficult because there's not enough information to determine that exactly.

I know you're not going to get it. That's why I said rough estimate.

I'm going to give you some relative pictures. I want to show you pictorially what this looks like and give you a sense of what this is.

I like numbers, man. I like spreadsheets.

That's what we live in, right, is engineering spreadsheets. So what I want to recognize here, as Kyla mentioned, there are improvements if entities want to improve the channel to reduce seepage, they can make that investment. The other item that can occur is if other entities want to dedicate additional water rights, that they have legally to go down this channel that's perfectly fine the capacity of the channel will not change then from what it is right now it's not being enclosed at all in any way shape or form under the proposed alternative which is a misconception that's been out there in the public

Under both proposed alternatives. Under both proposed alternatives. First dam and then Crockett.

Not in a significant way. There may have been some small pipe areas just because of some pumping and other capacity that needed to be taken care of but it's relatively small.

So theoretically Logan could allow their shares to just keep flowing through there because we have shares in Crockett. That's correct.

If Logan wanted to dedicate shares to go through that, that's your prerogative because you have legal rights to those. The important part is the project is trying to provide the opportunity for those things to continue as they are now or enhancements to be made if the city or others elect to do so.

You said small areas could maybe be piped. Could you better give us an idea of what those small areas are?

So in the Crockett alternative, which is the other alternative that was proposed, there would be a pump house that would pressurize the entire system. We would have to enclose a small section, let's say, I'm just going to guess 150 feet to be able to get the infrastructure built, and that would be located in River Hollow Park. So if you can see that, we're trying to create a trail through River Hollow Park to get down to Crockett Avenue. We've got to put a pump house in under that alternative. So it gets quite tight. And so there may be a need to pipe a small portion of it. But I will say this, that under the current alternative and the proposed alternative that we're looking at, there's no change to the little over here. That's all I'm going to say. There's no change to it. It just stays intact in how it is. Any changes can be made otherwise.

You mean to the route? To the volume?

To the shape, the route, the alignment, to the vegetation. What about the flow? The flow, by legal right, that the irrigation companies have can be diverted where it needs to go.

So it could be dried up, I mean all summer long.

The project, because they understand the importance of it, is dedicating five to ten second feet of their water right to this. In perpetuity? Yeah.

In perpetuity? Yeah.

Yeah, the intent there is that that's given. That's a pretty big deal if you think about the cost of water and what it can do. That's a sacrifice by the irrigation companies and those that hold the water rights because of the importance of the project.

So, Zan, instead of being the canal and the, let alone being the vehicle for the canals that feed houses and go elsewhere, those will all be piped and what will be left is the 10 CFS that is dedicated to that flow. So they're basically changing the way that system works by putting the majority of it under some kind of a pressurized system that would service all of the service area of Crockett Irrigation Company.

I just want to recognize and clarify again though, but the significant flow amount that everybody is understanding, right? We talk about 52nd feet being diverted. Once you get west of Jens Johansen Park, that flow is not that high. It's much lower because of the significance of the canal that's diverted to go to the north. I want to try to make sure people don't get fixated on that number.

So that diversion that exists today, will continue to divert but into a system?

No.

Or it will be someplace else?

The diversion, that's a great question and I did clarify that. The diversion point will be a first dam.

Okay.

So there would be a connection made there to pressurize the system to not have to pump it and use ongoing power.

So why is it that the diversion at

the the current diversion needs to be redone it's in poor condition if it's not going to be used anymore because we want to provide the opportunity for the little logan to continue flow it's in poor condition and gets plugged up quite often logan city has to go down and pull branches and limbs and trees out of there so if you're diverting at first dam how much flow is coming down the logan river before the diversion

And then how much is in the Logan River after the diversion?

Great question. So that upper reach between first dam and the diversion because we're pulling water out at the first dam will be decreased by whatever that diversion amount is. The one thing again that the project is dedicating is 25 CFS or cubic feet per second to continue down the river.

But do they have the right to the entire flow of the river?

The rocket Avenue, no, no, there's other water right holders that are on the river.

So, do the water right holders that currently exist on the river have right to the entire flow of the river.

Collectively or collectively collectively. They have, there's, okay, there's paper water.

I understand that part. I do understand that part.

The quick answer is yes. When we get down to like Logan, Blacksman Fork, Trapper Park area, the Logan River is pretty much dry. They have the ability to take all that water.

The Logan River is?

The Logan River, yeah.

Because historically, and I'm sort of asking these in a way that, but historically the water has only been considered, it had to have a beneficial use.

Correct.

And flowing downstream was never a beneficial use until very recently.

Correct.

And so it's an interesting concept when you think about it, that we enjoy the flow of the river and the flow in the canals. But it's technically, according to Utah state law, somebody else's water.

Correct. Okay. It is water that is, other folks have water rights to it and it has been utilized as a public benefit or a public amenity and that's what it's been recognized as for this long. But in reality, these folks are the ones who have the water rights. Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, a lot of benefit coming from the irrigation side to dedicate an in-stream flow to make sure that we do have water in the Logan River below Travel Park and to make sure that there is a base flow into Little Logan. All of this project is basically making a flexible operation system that could be changed in the future and like right now there's not really many options of how to operate this or how to change things in the future and us putting in this infrastructure would allow so many changes and you know like Zan said if there's other water that becomes available that people want to get dedicated to either the Logan River or the Little Logan they're more than welcome to and all of the infrastructure would be in place to make sure that that works that the accounting is there that the measurement is there so that from from our perspective it really takes us a big step does it cover everybody's needs and everybody's wants We can't make that happen, but it puts a huge step forward and then it allows that to continue to expand and change in the future.

Can I ask a question? So you're leaving the water in the river for I think you say 14 miles? Correct. I'm assuming most of it's coming out at the West River pump station? Correct. To go into the storage? Yep.

cutler tail water what what do you expect to be in the lower river below that uh that's cutler tail water so basically from cutler back it's it's it's probably sitting yeah it's sitting what at that elevation due to the dam yeah okay yeah it's about static cool level at that point okay yeah and that recognized too that that's another amenity that the irrigation company is the project is planning to do to allow the water to run through those 14 miles below the river and improve the quality of it and then use pumps and energy to get it back in and use it as storage so again it's a it's a flexibility item that kyler brought up and i think it's hugely important so okay

And Ernesto has a question after you. We're going to sit here for a while. That's okay. Our time is yours.

We received an email where it says... that in the impact statement it mentions that if we have an extreme drought year or season, that the 10 CFS that would flow through the diversion would actually, I guess it would be the decision of the canal to allow it or not to allow it. Is that correct?

That has not been defined. So any agreements regarding any water use or dedication of that would happen during the design phase of the project. Right now we're just in the planning phase. So we would have to request funds from NRCS, move into the design phase. That's where we would set up all our design criteria. agreements, that's where all of the legally binding agreements would happen, with all of the different groups that would be connected or impacted by the project. So that's where we would have time to say, you know, in an extreme drought, we're going to provide X amount of water, or there's a schedule or something, just like it's done for the Kimbell Decree.

So, follow up to that very same question. What is this year, for example, considered?

This is an extreme year.

So in today's type of situation, water situation, if what I asked about was true, then there would be no flow doing through the... That has not been defined, no.

So there's still room for discussion from the stakeholders and that would be a point of talking between each of the project stakeholders, so Logan City, the irrigation company, and the other municipalities because you're balancing you know, secondary use that people could be putting on their lawns and gardens versus this public amenity use going through the Little Logan. So those are all key pieces that need to be discussed and worked out during the design phase. So yeah, I guess to answer the question, there's been no determination of exactly what that would look like. That would still come in the future.

So that 10 cubic feet per second could go up or down?

Depending on that potential agreement.

They're saying 5 to 10 and then there's room in the agreement to work out the detail. If the city were to or an entity were to put where water rights in then that's secured by them Yeah, right. It's it's all worked out by David.

Can you can you repeat that?

If the city let's say except let's say the Logan City puts their shares that are in Crockett and say we want them to flow through on the little Logan Then that's whatever you put in is there you manage that because that's your water except

If everyone is in a drought condition, everybody's water is less. So it wouldn't be a consistent, you wouldn't say my one share is one CFS, it will always be one CFS. Correct. Because if it's in a drought, it could be a half.

That's right. That's all based on the Kimbell Decree, the education and how the river is governed. The overlying water.

Okay, my question goes further downstream. Okay. So you're going to pump out of the Logan.

Yes.

put it in the lagoons, theoretically. I don't know when you get it back out again, what happens to it, but that removes water from the river that goes into the Bear River, which becomes part of the dam and the electric generation and also moves into the Bear River Irrigation Company in Box Elder County. how do you account for the fact that they also have water rights and expect a certain flow and how do you say that you're saving water other than you're putting it in the lagoons that's a good question so basically any water would be taken back out of the pump station would be subject to the water right we can't pump out any more than they have water rights for

so they have consumptive water rights for up to 140 cfs the profit group and so um we would be taking as much of that as we can at the upstream side leaving the in-stream flow up to 25 cfs and then taking that additional 25 but none of that that we would be pumping back in would be going above and beyond the consumptive water rights of the project group on a good year Yes, obviously the 140 CFS is nowhere near realistic on a year like this.

But, okay, so you're pumping it into the, that is your storage and your savings?

Yep.

So nothing additional is actually going to the Great Salt Lake.

Not necessarily. There will still be opportunity if the ag water users decide not to take their water. There are programs in place now that that could be pushed down to the Great Salt Lake. So again, it comes back to this. We're setting the infrastructure. It's giving flexibility. If groups decide that they don't want to use that water for the agricultural beneficial use, then that can be sent further downstream to the Great Salt Lake.

I would add to that is the efficiencies of the system. will lessen the demand. And that provides greater opportunity as well and greater probability for water to go downstream.

And those efficiencies are coming from a less seepage and less evaporation.

Yep.

Have you calculated what you expect through seepage and evaporation in the old sewer lagoons?

Yes, we have. We've taken that into account.

And is that calculated into your savings number? Correct. It is? Yep. Ernesto? Yeah, good question.

So pardon my ignorance. I think you called it adjudication, which I'm assuming is who claims however percentage of the water. Is that an actual percentage, and is there a priority of who gets the water first, or is it an actual number of CFS?

It is a schedule. It's called the Kimmel Decree. It's public. You're welcome to go take a look at it and detail who gets what amount of water at what flow rates in the Logan River.

So it's not a percentage. It's an actual number.

It is a percentage. It's a percentage of the total. So they split it up between all the different groups so that everybody kind of takes a little bit less.

But it is 100%.

Of the river. Of the river.

Correct. You add them all up. In a good year.

But at the current flow.

It's always technically 100%. Just 70% more water. Yeah. Good questions. You can keep presenting. I've got more but we'll get to them. Maybe you'll cover them and then we'll get to mine.

All right. I'm just going to share a couple of slides with you. This is just a couple of things to give you a visual of what different flow rates look like. So Kyler and the group measured the flow of Central Park and Merlin Wilson Park. That picture on the left is a five and a half second feet. The picture in the center is a measured flow at seven CFS at Jens Johansen Park. That's quite a bit less than we would see today, but that's actually a seven CFS flow at Jens Johansen. And then that's a flow of 9.2 CFS down at the fairgrounds at that area. So we can go through and thumb through the next slides just quickly, just to give an explanation of where things are at. So again, these photos were taken last week. with 51 cubic feet per second being birded out of the Logan River and then 6.3 CFS at the fairgrounds. So the picture on the left is at River Hollow Park looking to the east. You can see the flow there in between the vegetation and areas there. The next picture is Jim's Johansen Park. That would probably be approximately 51 second feet as well. And then when you get down to Merlin-Holson Park, that flow has been diminished or decreased significantly because the water has been routed in the canal to the north. Um, and then that that's where that flows currently, you know, we all see it. There's a couple of young ladies out there having a great time just enjoying the summer day.

Maybe maybe flip back and forth between this slide and the upstream and the other ones that you can see the difference between gentle hands and at seven versus the fifty. Yeah, that's right. That's that's the difference that we would be seeing in that one stretch.

It's probably I would say similar to what we see in Merlin Alton. Correct. Yep. So the next set of slides just continue on to show a little bit more perspective. Another picture of Merlin Alton Park. There's a picture just west of 200 East. Now one might ask themselves, when you look at Merlin-Holton Park, you see what appears to be more flow. There's ripples, there's little waves and other things like that. When you get just to the west side of 200 East, it becomes quiet, slow moving. It doesn't look rapid, it's smooth. And you would say, well, there's not as much flow there. That's actually not true. It is the same amount of flow at that location.

It's just the conditions of the flow. I'm sorry? The children haven't put rock dams.

Right.

Can I make a request, Suzanne? On the next set of photos, can you stand in the river so I can get a judge on a hike? No, no, every photo, just stand in the middle so I know how deep it is.

It's hitting on your leg.

No, no, I want pictures of Zan in the river.

Merlin Olsen is often about 8 to 10 inches deep is typically what I've seen. And it's generally between 5 and 7.

So is that knee high for Zan?

I'll be honest with you, it's probably about 4 inches deep. 5 to 7? Yeah, as I watch those kids play in there.

I was going to say, I've been there.

It's really wide there. It has eroded. It's eroded over the last 50 years a lot.

It's about this deep, because that's how much my dog's feet get. So it's up to your dog's knees.

Dog knees. Sorry, Zad. This flow is in St. Myrna and Olson today, approximately? Five.

I measured it last week for four. It was five CFS, like 4.6.

Do you remember that by standing in the river?

I stood on the bridge. The picture on the right just gives you an indication just further downstream of the picture in the center is where some additional flow comes off of the Logan and Northern Canal, or excuse me, off of the Crockett Canal and it flows down through a power plant and the mill, the central mill. So that's a return flow. So this is the dynamics of water rights changing the flow up and down as we go down the region.

So that brings up one more question. Just one more, probably. Historically, the theater has been cooled by the flow of the canal. I don't know at what CFS that works the most efficiently, but I assume we will be maintaining that level of flow to make that system continue to work efficiently.

That's it. Which theater are we talking about? Ellen Echols.

Echols Theater.

Which one?

Echols. Echols? Yeah.

Yeah. If they have a water right, an ability to use that, then that would be- Have to provide that. Yeah. There.

Paul? My understanding is it would still be maintained. There's actually a pump that pumps it over to Echols and then back on the return load. I don't think- it's fully dependent on a level of it. There's a little stilling basin there that it takes out of. So yes, my understanding it would still be maintained as long as there's water in there.

actually be incorporated into the design of the project. It wouldn't be that difficult to put a loop in and allow it to do what it does now. That's perfectly acceptable.

Yeah, well, we need to maintain that.

I think the important question that would come up during the design phase, all of these questions, all of these details, that's where we get into it is in the design phase. And so we would look at, yeah, what's our current level of service, what irrigation company is providing the water, and then we can work on it.

Well, I do think that there was some conversation that the EIS set certain limitations on future choices. And so I don't, you know, that's why I'm asking these types of questions because I don't know whether indeed it does set limitations on future choices because you picked X. And maybe Y is part of one of the things you really wanted, but it's not in X. So you can't do it. And I don't know if that's true or not true.

Okay. I think, per Kyler's point that he made earlier, I think it was really valid that we created a system here under this alternative that's highly flexible to meet a lot of different needs. Can it meet every need, as Kyler said? There's going to be something out there that's not exactly how it is right now, but the flexibility of the system to continue to serve the needs and the purposes of the project and the community. Again, public comment is weighing in on this, and we've adapted it to address those items in the way that we can underneath the program to continue forward with the project to benefit the community.

Okay.

I would say that. Just a couple more photos if you're interested. These are photos of the fairgrounds. The photo on the left is the actual measurement structure where you would have seen six CFS. And then as you continue further down, you can see the flow, what it looks like there a little further down the stretch in the center. And then just west of Willow Park, you can see the flow there in the river. Those are just some pictorial items to show you what the aesthetics look like, what the potential recreation opportunities look like there, because I know that's been a concern. I will state that we received approximately 550 comments in the final comment period. Let's keep going, Paul. Right there is a summary of the the bigger text indicates the more percentage of comments that were received for the project. So we took all the comments, we split them into 57 different areas, which we respond to. You can see that the top three are the Little Logan flows, the costs, and the Little Logan classification, and then the Great Salt Lake. So per the project, we've outlined a lot of those items and they've been addressed. We have to address all of the comments, either individually or as a group, and most of that work is complete now, getting that done to finalize the environmental impact statement.

Remind me what total estimated cost was?

Total estimated cost is a little over $300 million.

And is that estimated in today's dollars?

We actually inflated that for a couple of years because we knew construction dollars and construction wouldn't start for a few more years, so we include some inflation factors on that. One of the things to recognize, I mentioned earlier, the different programs in the project, like flood control is at 100%. Ag water is at 75% and recreation is at 50%. The estimated project match on that total construction cost is about 11%. So about $33 million of the 300 and something million would be the participants or sponsor, co-sponsors cost, as the project is outlined correct now. So about 89% funded. And we are looking at other avenues to find matching funds through the state of Utah that can help with some of the offsets, some of the additional funds as well. $33 million or $30 million is still a significant amount of money.

And what is the, is this split even amongst the sponsors? It would be distributed according to the benefit each is receiving.

So a very simple example is the trails that would be enhanced in Logan would be the 50% cost match would come from Logan City, right? That's a pretty straightforward.

Right. So if we wanted to do that trail on Canyon Road from Center Street to 600 East, we'd be expecting Logan to pay roughly $1.5 million of that. About how much? $1.5 million.

Yeah. You're looking at those costs? Yeah. Right. Okay.

So it's on page two of the one with the grass. Right. I understand. I understand. I'm just...

Theoretically. Russ is pretty good about finding other funds. Other grants.

We could match that grant with another grant.

You can't do federal with federal. It's got to be federal with state, federal with something else, but you can whittle that down.

This is just a summary of the comments and the categories that they came in. Again, this is the top five. You can see what those comments address or what those interests were in those different areas.

And I'll just say that because the Little Logan had so many comments, that's why we're making a map. So that should hopefully dispel a lot of the confusion, concern about that. I think it will give a much clearer picture of what's currently happening today and how it could be expected to change just the flow rate. Obviously, the physical characteristics of the Little Logan channel would all remain the same.

But the classification is not our responsibility.

That is not the project's responsibility and it is not the city's responsibility. It's the state. Okay. Good question.

Other questions for Zan and Kyler? If you guys don't have some, I have a couple still.

Go for it.

Ernesto, got anything? Melissa?

I might, but go ahead.

Okay. These ones are more financial. You've got a little table on your second paper here that shows the estimated secondary user rates with the connection rate. That's assuming, so this would be the monthly bill to a user at a 50% adoption or 100% adoption, correct? Correct.

And the reason we did it, thank you. The reason we did it this way is because the feedback that we got from all of the municipalities was that we're not going to do a mandate. We're not going to make sure we're not going to mandate that everybody who is within that service area is required to connect. If there's a change there, we can assume 100% adoption rate. And if everybody connects on, the cost is shared between more people and everybody has cheaper water.

Does that change the feasibility of the project as a whole? No. OK. Does that change?

I guess another way to state that would be that the monthly cost would absorb any of that difference. So the number of people that connect, that is what will absorb the remainder.

Because the infrastructure is still installed.

Yeah. Right. And so that's assuming you're going to install pipes everywhere on this. Yes. Yeah. No one's going to want to live in Logan when you're installing these pipes. Can I be honest?

It's every road in the city. It will be phased. It will be phased.

Yeah, so is Google Fiber. It's still a nightmare.

Yeah, we understand. We understand. What's that?

So it's almost done. Almost.

Let's start this next. Let's do this. We can roll right into this.

Yeah, good question.

This will be so much worse than Google Fiber.

The other thing I'll say is that this is riding on the assumption that we don't get any other funding. So if we were to get some other match funding on that, that brings those rates down even more. Sure.

So a couple more questions on that. My understanding is that Hyde Park and possibly North Logan already have a mandate for secondary water connections if it's available for new build. I have family along the Wasatch Front that are on secondary water. What is the anticipated schedule that that would be turned on throughout the year?

It would be the same as the irrigation flow we currently have April 15th through September 30th. April 15th?

Yeah. April 15th through September 30th. I believe that's correct.

April 1st. April 1st. How much does that change?

on heavy drought years? Because I know I get family that you know they're like oh we got cut off earlier this year which I understand but I'm just curious.

I think it's too hard to say exactly on that. I will say that the benefit that we have is the storage, the lagoons down at the bottom would definitely extend our late season. We would have much less cut off early.

But you'd expect some flexibility on that?

Correct.

Shut off day out.

Just like any other sector.

Do you know, and this is outside your expertise probably, do you know average expected cost to a resident? So if we say, okay, you can have a secondary, what's that going to cost? That's a good question. To get somebody to come out and hook up on? Well, sure. But do we know what that?

The meter connection to the home is included in the project cost. Okay. But the question is how do I get it connected to my sprinkler system?

And that team ranges from 300 up to 5,000.

It's like connecting to Google Fiber. I doubt it would be in the 5,000 range, but it depends on where your sprinkler system starts.

My house it would be.

But it's not included. So with Google Fiber, it's included in your monthly bill. They don't charge you anything to hook up. It would not be included in the monthly bill here.

There would be- They charge and we don't do it right then. Like if I decided now after they already came around- I hooked up a few months after they came through and they didn't charge me. Okay.

Never noticed that I use Google Fiber. But it's not included in this monthly bill. You'd have to hire an outside company, a sprinkler company to come through and hook up. Okay. This one's more for you, Paul. We're talking, there's been a lot of numbers. We're talking water savings, I don't remember the exact amount, to the culinary system. And then we will have to build out, you have that really basic graph here, which I understand, you know the numbers. We're gonna have to build out less infrastructure for culinary water if this project goes forward.

What's your question?

Is that true? Because isn't our base, like we build water flow, we've talked about this, but we build water flow for culinary, not for, I mean, not for fire flow, not for sprinkler systems. Would we in the future actually have to change our minimum storage, our minimum pipe site? Or is that going to be the same because we're building for fire flow, which is always our heaviest possible use?

It's obviously very conceptual at this point. I couldn't tell you which projects or what size.

I understand that.

But I would say there is potential for less infrastructure to be required if there's less demand on the system. Now there are three main components, obviously, demand, fire, and storage are what we size the system on. And so that demand component will be reduced. Fire doesn't always dictate, but often does, especially on the smaller pipes in the distribution system. It doesn't always dictate like our storage tanks and our big transmission.

Our storage and transmission are based on fire.

That's typically not the driving factor. It's one of the three, but it depends on where you are in the system, whether it be... the supply wells, the storage tanks, or the distribution system, which of those three really drive the day, if you will, or the size. So yes, I think there's potential for reduction in infrastructure to tell you exactly like how much it is. We had to make estimates and say, we think it's this percentage or this amount.

Roughly $600,000 a year, give or take.

It was based off the master plan.

It was based off the current master plan. So my... No, we did actually work with the engineering company that was doing the city's master plan during this process and had them evaluate what the capital infrastructure needs would be if this system went in. And they said, basically, you're taken care of right now. You would have to maintain your system, but capital expansion would not necessarily be necessary. That was the outcome of that.

But we don't need a capital expansion for a few decades after what we're doing right now anyway, correct?

It depends. Because right now your summer demand is really high. But if you put the secondary system in, your summer demand goes away and your system is more uniform.

With our canyon road line, we're not going to be close to... Maxing that out in the next.

Not that line down.

Yeah, not that area. Correct.

And I'll admit, early on in the project, as they were making these assumptions of future infrastructure costs, those sort of things, I was probably, I don't know, a loud voice for being, I don't know, making less estimated savings. The project identified more in working with the master plan and that sort of thing. And I said, unless I want to assume all of those are accurate, can you back off those estimates a little bit?

So you're comfortable with that number in there that I think was $650,000 a year? Yes. I'm going to ask a follow-up question if that's okay.

On that $650,000, a big part of that is, Kyler just mentioned summer demand versus winter demand. It's huge. If you look at our winter base flow, I mean, we go up by... you know, exponentially, almost three or four times at least. And majority of our culinary water cost is energy and pumping, and that all happens in the summer. And so that's where a huge part for Logan City, that reduction in cost is. If you can take that peak out, you're likely pumping a lot less, spending less energy.

So we're not drastically reducing infrastructure costs, but we are reducing operations costs.

That's a big part of the annual.

I'm talking about the annual operations costs. And it means less groundwater pumped. Because that's where a lot of the summer supply comes from.

I'm assuming less maintenance as well. It's running less.

Which kind of takes me to my next, I don't even know how to answer this question. I have one more. I figured, why not go for 10 o'clock again? This is my last one, I think. I'm kidding. It was sarcastic.

I was in a meeting till 9.45 last night.

I'm trying to think how to ask this. Our culinary water rates pay for our water department, right?

Yes.

So what we charge our users for their water pay for our employees and our trucks, but they also pay for the infrastructure. If we're suddenly not getting four times the income in June, July, and August, what does that do to our demand for the employees, but also what does that do to our employee and our rolling stock? How do we run a water department business if we're cutting our revenue? that heavily? This is an internal city question, but I'm curious.

Because it's not the first time it's been brought up.

Sure.

I don't know that I have a perfect answer other than there would be a reduction in revenue now.

Which would likely to some extent have to result in a rate increase because people are using less.

To some extent? If we maintain the exact same operating costs, yes.

But if you're operating costs are less, you don't need as much revenue.

Yeah, but you're still going to have just as many meters that need to be checked and read and just as many pipes that need to be fixed. We're not reducing miles in pipe. That's all digital. What was that? That's all digital anyway. That's all digital anyway. jem and i will do it for us right like there's a lot of work that goes on in maintaining our system and and part of that is not going to go away sure our pumping costs might go down but we suddenly have less revenue but the same employees to maintain the same miles of pipe the same number of connections right and how do we and your question the point you're making is exactly why

I pushed to be less aggressive in those estimates for that reason. They were a lot higher.

Is that rolled into this expected savings?

Yes, and they were adjusted for that reason.

So that is incorporated into what we're expecting to save on cost.

They're estimates, so we don't know exactly what that reduction will be.

Estimates are always accurate.

Always. But yes, that was a huge part of my concern with those estimates and why they were reduced fairly significantly.

So you're going to hate this question publicly. Well, thank you. Do you expect there to probably have to be a change in rates?

For this project?

If this project goes through, do you think water rates would have to go up to cover operating costs in your apartment?

I would have to say I don't know. Okay. That's a valid answer. I don't think I can answer that right now.

That's a valid answer. I'm just curious. We'd have to dig into the fixed and the variable costs and see where some trimming could be done.

Well, plus time. I mean, this is not going to happen tomorrow.

And I understand that. I just know that he's in it every day and I'm not, so... That's okay, that's a valid answer.

One comment that I would add to that is, you know, it's important to look at the overall water bill for an individual and what that looks like. To the point of that one graph with the blue and orange line, what that does look like. What does it look like now? We sort of indicate a little higher rate, perhaps, and then as you get down the road, because of the different costs that come up because of capital improvements or other operational costs, that delta gets a difference. So long-term savings, definitely you're going to see that come about with the second system. There's going to be a There's going to be a difference in the beginning.

But some of the long-term savings in culinary water allows for, I'll say that G word, growth. So it would also allow us to thoughtfully add to our system with people.

More users.

Children.

There are children right now.

Just one thought, having the infrastructure and the future costs. We have projects come for a variety of reasons. Some of them are growth and they're undersized. A lot of them are just deteriorating infrastructure. And so it's going to happen regardless of that.

Yeah, that's why a lot of our costs aren't going to change purely because it's a secondary system. A lot of our capital projects I don't expect to have a water department that's half the size because you still have 150 old pipes all over the place. Agreed. So, good questions.

Other questions from the council?

I was just going to ask, this seems like, I mean, a huge expense. Even though, yes, it's not coming from city dollars, it's still our tax dollars because it's federal, right? And so we're still paying for it. $308 million. Plus what's the upkeep every year? It's like $2 million? $2 million.

Approximately five and a half million.

Five and a half million.

But that will mostly be paid to the users. I'll put it into context a little bit. If we think about the current water project that the city's undertaking at this point in time, That's about 22,500 feet of pipe being installed at a figure of about $47 million. So four-ish miles? Four miles. This is 120 miles of infrastructure being installed. plus flood control projects to overflow the water from the canals on 1800 North, plus the recreational components as well. So it does feel like a lot of money, but if we think about it on scale compared to what we're familiar with, It's not, it looks big, it feels big because it is big, but relatively the cost is not.

And I get that, but I understand it's big, but it's for secondary water. Where we're trying to tell people to save water and plant wise and we live in a desert and all this and we're spending this much for secondary water for people to water their yards.

The other perspective I offer is the money has already been allocated to this funding, so there's no turning it back to people. We have an opportunity to take it and bring it here, or we can let it go somewhere else. That's another perspective to consider. Okay.

And am I looking at this map correctly, that it really doesn't affect the east side of Logan?

At least our tax dollars are working here.

And why is that?

Because the service area is below that. Yeah, there's a limitation. So currently the Logan Hike Park-Smith Canal or Cache High Line Water Association runs the upper canal that feeds the upper part of the community.

And that's not getting touched.

No. They've got some existing pipelines in place and have some pressurization that you put in, but the hydraulics in that system haven't been changed. Okay.

I'll just mention in addition to your question on the four secondary water, that's definitely the majority of it. Agribusiness secondary water is the same amount of water as can be. as public works we're not just water a huge part of that is stormwater and flood control and even though it's not 50 percent or majority of the project uh impact to the city it's a big part of the project we would have to we will have to address and do something for flood control if this project goes through or not this is one way to get it paid for without city money

That's a big thing to me. You bring up a really valid point about are there alternative methods to save water and prolong what we're doing rather than building millions of dollars in infrastructure. If we think about it utopianly, that would be great. What's the practicality of that? What does that look like with full city adoption? I ask myself and I don't know the answer, how much would it cost to make that conversion to get the same benefit out of it? I don't know the answer, but it would be an interesting number. It could be more, it could be less. So there's a conversation to be had there that the municipality can look at ways to help conserve water through, Billing rate structures charge more for more demanding water, you know, and that helps people concern.

Metering, everything will be metered. Which, I mean, if we get metering for all the ag users, that's a huge benefit. I think you start to see some conservation there.

They've studied that and do see just the fact of having a meter brings education to the table.

So would all the residential homes be metered? Correct. And they'd be paying for water usage? Every connection would be metered.

Whether it's paid by water usage or not, typical systems just pay a flat rate per month. So that's a consideration, but that's not been determined yet.

And I will say there's a big criticism of the project that we haven't looked at demand reduction or water conservation. All of this, I'm going to say it again, all of this is putting in a system that allows those decisions to be made in their proper orders, right? If it's conservation of water, if it's reduction in use, those are decisions that should be made by the entities that own or have water rights. So we are designing a system to be able to take what is currently being done or what state code is for residential connections. All of this is putting in a system that would allow flexible operations into the future that could continue to compound on this infrastructure improvements.

Suzanne, next step.

Next step. So we are completing the EIS document at this point in time, responding to all of the comments. Those will be reviewed by the project team and then the final EIS will be prepared and will be presented to NRCS for their signature. So there are a couple of things that take place. There are watershed agreements that the sponsor and co-sponsor enter into that they are supportive of the alternative and moving forward with the project. As we've talked with NRCS about that agreement and what that looks like, Craig has been part of those conversations and been learning about that and trying to understand that a little bit more. The intent is that it shows a commitment to move forward into design with the project. but there's still an off ramp after design is completed. So we're completing the first milestone and then we would request funding to move forward with the second milestone of design. And then after design is complete, agreements are entered into again and then funding for construction can be requested. So we're at step one.

But all of the next two steps are very dependent upon the federal government's ability.

Federal government funding that's available. The other thing that we talked about a little earlier was the phasing. of the project. One portion of the project might be ready to move forward sooner than another. So that could be funded. You could ask for funding on the trails. You could ask for funding on the flood control aspects of the project. And so there's different things. You have to design the entire project before you have to do that. You'd ask for design funds for those particular parts or the entire thing. There's some flexibility that you work at as you work with NRCS and the funds. 300 million is a lot of money at one time and so it will be a phased project if it goes forward. It'll have to be.

Two short questions. If everything went smoothly, what's your estimated total timeline for the project?

We're figuring probably a 10-year construction window.

10 years to construct?

Or done in 10 years? We would be done in probably, I'm going to say 13 to 15 years. It's three to five years. Three years probably to get the designs ready to go.

Is that 13 years of digging up our roads to put in pipes? Different phases. I'm just teasing. Just in line with Google Live. This is maybe a naive question. What is our role as a council? I get asked all the time, are you supporting this project? Do you not support this project? Where do you feel on it? And honestly, I don't even, my understanding is I don't have a vote anytime soon. We get updates occasionally, but what's my, what is the council's role going forward?

Yeah, I would say, and maybe Rich can help me here to make sure, but When it comes time to sign financial agreements for construction or phasing or our commitment on the match, council's role would be to allocate that money to this project.

If we love this project, can we push it through faster as a council? And if we hate this project, do we have any way to change that? That's a blunt way to ask the question of, because I get asked all the time.

I don't know about pushing through faster. I think that's going to be dependent on federal funding and applications there and our support of that. Second part to slow it down or whatever it was, it would be that allocation of funds, I would say. So did not fund it? we wouldn't have the match money.

And when you say fund it, you're talking the portions that require a match.

Correct.

So the trails and the, but regardless, hypothetically, portions of this project that are 100% funded by the NRCS could go forward with or without any council input.

I believe council would need to accept that grant and appropriate that money still, even if it's just a grant. 100% grant without...

I mean, but it's not coming into the city to construct it. Was that Rich?

I don't know that we're receiving the grant.

I say the grant's not coming to us.

That's true. Yeah. So... But whatever part that we play...

So the only part we really play is whether we require our users to hook up and whether we want to fund portions of the project that require a match from the city.

And whether we allow them to dig up a hundred and some miles of road.

A public driveway, yep. So we could say, no, you can't take up our roads and foot pipes. I'm just asking. I'm not saying I'm going to say that. I'm just asking. I get asked from people all the time, why are you guys supporting this question, that question? And every time I literally go, well, I've never voted or signed on any. I don't understand, actually, what the council's role in this project at this point is.

Well, Logan City is just a partner.

It's a co-sponsor.

Yeah. Sure. It's a partner in the project that Now this is me speaking as a Water District person, so I'm trying to interpret it that way. My understanding was that all of the partners have agreed that the project that is sponsored by Crockett, as probably the major motivator of all of this, is appropriate for their different municipalities.

So did the council vote on that before I was on the council at some point? No. Or did the city just?

No.

How do we become a co-sponsor? How did that happen?

Who signed that paper?

That was years ago. Well, I'm just curious.

And when the project started, we had a cost in that. Each sponsor.

OK, so at some point, the council didn't.

When we started the initial study with Crocodile, the new company, yes, we had a cost. I shared a cost in that study.

Make sure, Theresa, that you get it on the record that Mike has no idea what he's doing up here.

I think one thing that I would. Thank you. If you want to understand a little bit of the obligation um if if you do construct the trail there's an obligation to maintain it and keep it up if you do build the overflow infrastructure and a portion of that's within your municipality that's the responsibility of either the individual entity or agreements of combined entities yeah that's yet to be determined and i think it's a great discussion to have as we get into the details and that's more during the design part but for example

The Crockett Irrigation Company has determined that the diversion is a critical component to their operations. So they are moving forward trying to secure money to do that piece of this giant thing. So we could pick out pieces after this is all signed and available and they sort of, is it true that it just unlocks potential federal money for us to acquire to do the pieces?

Yes. It's the first, it's the requirement you have to go to the next step. Okay. You've got to have an approved EIS. Before you can do it again. Before you can request design funds. It has to be. And before you can build it with federal money. Correct, yes. Okay. Yeah, for sure.

So did that help? It did.

Okay.

Any other questions from the council after the longest mayor staff report that this group has ever seen? This is the longest ever.

So are we allowed to just email you more questions and.

I've got some for me as well.

Yeah, you've gotten some for me. I have a few more. I'm sorry.

It's still your mayor and staff report.

You've answered all my questions. Thank you.

Last question. Given all the cuts we've seen from the federal government for grants and other programs, what is the risk that the money will not be there?

What's the risk? What's your confidence that we're going to have the money to see this project through?

That's a great question. And that's why people are starting to diversify and look at some other funding options. And take the pieces that are the most important and get those through. because there is the time of this too i mean it's been a long process and these guys have been going to see conversions happen for 10 years so they're saying let's go after some other funding opportunities maybe it's not as good a cost match but we're going to get it pushed through faster so we're going to go after it so any of those pieces could be sectioned off and done separately we've been after everything's approved

We've been in communication with the city's funding team to talk about specifics related to the benefits we talked about today and how to leverage that and be able to receive more grant dollars or other ways because exactly we would exhaust the program if we funded this whole thing at once so we're diversifying.

I think that's everything. Thank you both. I'm sure you'll get emails from all of us.

That's it for my mayor and staff reports. Seven o'clock?

How are we doing on our timeline? Oh, we're only an hour behind. Sorry, Teresa. She does her best. Yeah, we're an hour behind schedule. Okay, we're going to move on with our agenda. Thank you, everyone, who was waiting for other items that we'll now get to for being patient. Planning Commission update, Councilwoman Simmons.

Their last Planning Commission, there is a rezone that we will hear later. So I won't go into that. The only other thing that is kind of interesting is where the old Wendy's is on Main Street between 10th and 14th North will now be a Chase Bank. It's gonna be torn down and a Chase Bank will be built there. That's it.

Okay. Do we have any short brief council announcements from everyone on the council?

Oh, let's save it for another time.

Perfect. That sounds wonderful. You too? Any council announcements before I move on?

I don't remember levels. I mean, just quick, maybe exciting announcements there. The EV chargers that were planned for the gym wall plus, I understand that they are about to or ready to be used. And I believe that there will be a level three charger in that location. Don't quote me on that.

Level three.

Fast one. Fast one, yes. Fast one, yes.

I thought he said level three, briefly. Level three.

And then the mural that is by the arch on that building is coming along pretty good. Looks nice. Will be done probably in the next week or two. Yeah, some other art work coming to the bus stations. If you guys remember, we approved that as part of the CDBG grants.

Thank you Ernesto. We're gonna try to keep moving if that's okay. Our first item is Mr. Mark Montgomery from Logan, light and power. You want to give us a brief? Everyone had a chance to meet with Mark, correct?

Yep.

Okay, so hopefully we made you wait an extra hour again another time. I'm sorry. It's just my luck.

I never fail.

The only thing I would add is

When we spoke, we talked about, especially Ernesto and Katie talked about, they were worried that on the special event fee that some were planning this fall that maybe We did put some language, if you were able to look in the rain, that kind of said, hey, if you've already signed up, this is grandfathered till December 33rd. Cool.

That's nice.

Will you give a brief 60-second rundown for the public, since this is a public hearing?

Would you like me to go through my little slide deck?

Can you do it in 60 seconds? Go for it.

Now run through your slide deck.

OK. I'll do it fast.

I just feel bad that we're always so far behind schedule recently.

No one to blame, but. Did I ask every single question? No.

Don't blame that on us.

It was a team effort.

There's kind of three, and we discussed this, there are three material changes kind of in the rate booklet as it were. One is the rates, and you'll see that most of those rates are adjusted by fractions of pennies. We've added a special event rate, and to this point, Logan City Power has been doing events for free. And we met with the special events committee and decided to come up with this rate. The third thing is the power prop adjuster, which really isn't much different than the electric surcharge we had before. Other than this has maybe a few extra guardrails and checks in it that the previous version did not have. You can see the rates on the markup. I did make a note here that if we take the average amount of energy that a home uses, their bill will increase about $2.90 a month.

What's the average homes bill typically?

Probably 600 to 700 kilowatt hours.

And what does that look like for numbers? I know my electric bill costs. I don't have any idea how many kilowatt hours I use.

Probably 70, $70-ish. It'll go up to 90. Okay. Special event rate... You guys have seen this. If it's a permanent pallet like we have mounted down on Center Street, $70 on the bed for two days. And if it's one that we have to take out, physically set up, open up a transformer, plug it in, get it set up for the event, then it's going to be $250 per bed.

And for those that may need just one day, there's no one-day rate?

No, that just covers two days of setting up. Because it costs us the same to roll a truck and guys and open a transformer and all that stuff. And then this is just that paragraph that kind of says, hey, if you've already signed up for a special event, it's kind of grandfathered until December 31st. Kind of grandfathered. So these fees will be delayed if you've got something planned this fall. I threw up this. There were some questions as to what other cities were doing. It's kind of all over the board. Provo City charges $300, and that's not really a special event rate. That is just their temporary hookup fee. of which we don't actually have a temporary hookup fee. So essentially this becomes that temporary hookup fee. Hiram charges $75. They're kind of in the same boat as Provo City. I called the Hiram director to get this information from him and he said, I've never done it. All this stuff happens in Logan. And then Lehigh is kind of similar, I guess, $80 to set it up. And then if they have manpower on site, it's $150 per hour labor to make the connections and do all the stuff.

What are we calling ours again? Not a setup fee.

It's a special event.

Special event. Special event fee.

But all of those, I mean, except Lehigh, Hiram and Murray and Bountiful and Brigham, they're all on...

No, Murray, Bountiful, Brigham are all municipally owned. So they have no charge which is basically what we are now, unless this event rate passes.

Having run special events, it would be fairly easy to charge those that are using power to cover this cost. Because we know who's using it, those that are going to use power, their booth charge would just be, I'm just saying this is what I would do. Right.

We just don't usually have a meter, right, on those temporary hookups.

Yeah, that makes sense. So running events, I find it reasonable. And that's a charge you can pass on to those that are consuming. Something about faster meetings? Yeah.

I'm just saying.

Just trying to clarify. I'm just teasing.

Okay. Sorry. Did we finish? Keep going. I'm standing by 60 seconds. PCA power cost adjuster. Currently our system is that if we are short what we budgeted, we just pass on those costs the next billing period by spreading that dollar amount over the kilowatt hours. This is essentially the same thing other than it says we can't really do more than three cents per kilowatt hour without getting permission from someone. Three cents additional. Right. So say if you're a resident, your first level is 10 cents a kilowatt hour, we can go up to 13 cents. If we need to go more than that, we need to talk to the mayor. And if we need to really get up in there, we need to talk to city council. Also, there hasn't been a mechanism in this rate to if we think we can catch it in a month and we don't want to go talk to the mayor to get to four and a half cents we can defer that balance to the next month and just add two cents or whatever we think it'll be so that we can try and catch that right now we don't have the ability to do that we just have to do it the next month period so there is code that would stop you from doing that pardon currently the code says that No, we just do it.

So you're choosing right now to just do it on the following month?

Right. Right now, we do not do that. If we're short, we charge it on the next month. And if we're short again, we charge it on this month. This is saying, if we're really short, but we think we're going to catch it, we'll defer that balance and not make it quite so heavy on the next month's billing. um i i looked into other cities some of them have no power cost adjuster in place but they're working quickly to get them because this has cost them millions when power gets kind of wonky the rest do it very similar to the way logan is now i didn't find anybody that kind of puts a guardrail in and says hey if it's got to go over this amount we need to go talk to the mayor this is the council nobody does that they just do it the way we're doing it right now

But we're adding the garden.

We're adding that a little bit so that council and mayor are aware of, maybe more aware of what maybe is going on in power costs. And that would be the extent of my remaining slideshow.

Thank you, Mark. Thank you. On the resolution, it does say for utility bills billed after September 1st, just to make sure council's aware of that, that could include usage for the month of August, including usage prior to today, up till today, and through the end of the month. We bill weekly, so the first bills in September would likely be nearly four weeks worth of August usage, and then it decreases from there. So just keep that in mind as you contemplate this rate.

But we could change the resolution to change that date.

You could, and that's why we're on it. If you decide. If you decide.

um is the council okay if i open public hearing yeah okay this is a public hearing anyone from the audience who would like to speak on resolution 26-27 so i'm going to come to the microphone state your name city of residence and please take three minutes or less that's why i often make eye contact with everyone and see nobody looking anxious uh seeing no one i'll close the public hearing and bring it back to the council for further discussion or A motion or questions for Mark before he wanders too far.

Mark doesn't want any questions. Mark's leaving.

He expects us to.

I will move we approve resolution 26-27. I will second.

Are you okay with that September date?

Yep.

I second it.

Ernesto, are you okay with that second date, September date?

Sorry, you're contemplating just pushing everything to start.

It is not something I caught before.

Is that something you what?

Caught before that moment.

Oh, caught before. No, I didn't either.

I know. OK. We can have a discussion before a vote is called. Correct, Rich? I mean, Craig?

Yep.

We have a motion and a second, but we can still have a discussion.

Yep.

Rich? Since you brought this up, how far back is someone possibly getting back-billed on a rate changer?

Four weeks.

Up to four weeks.

So the first bills in September would be nearly four weeks worth of usage. Just depends on the rate dates, but more likely four weeks of usage in August, half of which occurs after today, roughly.

Mark, if we pushed it back to October 1st, what would that do? Are there any...

I thought you had research.

Do you foresee any issues of pushing it back?

No.

Okay. We do have a motion and a second. So all in favor of approving resolution 26-27 as written and presented, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed? Nay. Nay. So the motion fails. Told you guys we should have some tutus tonight since Katie's gone. Here we go.

I move we approve the resolution with changing the date to be effective on October 1st.

We have a motion.

I'm fine with that. I'll second it.

We have a motion and a second. Mark, are you okay with that date? Does that feel, do you want a different date that makes us comfortable? Do you want November 1st? I'm sorry. I should have caught that before. Okay. All in favor of approving? Craig, do I need to just state the date? Do I need to state the line it's on? Can we just state it with the date? the motion change yeah amending the date the effective date october 1st to october 1st okay all those in favor approving resolution 26-27 with an amendment to approve the date to move the date to october 1st 2026 please say aye aye any opposed motion 2627 passes with an amended date sorry mark sorry to make you wait forever always we'll try to put you first on the agenda again next time Our next resolution is resolution 2602 with our library director, Michael.

I'm going to keep this as short as possible. So just kind of as a reminder, last fall I investigated the origin of our current non-resident fee of $163 a year for use at the library. It is based on a 20 plus year old formula that I don't believe is sustainable. So I worked with our library board who passed an update to our policies which would move our non-resident rate to the fiscal year instead of from the year of purchase to allow for month-to-month purchases and to lower the annual cost from $163 to $125 which is based on the average property tax paid to users, which is what we've been telling people the number was based on, even though that was incorrect. The board has since implemented the fiscal year and the month-to-month purchasing, since that does not involve any dollar amount. So at the moment, we are pending your vote on our proposal to lower the annual fee from $163 to $125.

Plus the $10 transit.

Oh, that's right. Yes, plus the $10 transit. It's been six months.

If we hypothetically approve this tonight.

Mm-hmm.

How many cards have you sold since July 1st that were paid?

I do not have that number.

Would we be refunding those users the difference in their card rate, or is it just...

The board would just be the day we implemented the changes. Okay. Because how far back... Well, because it says beginning July 1st, 2026. That was written in February. I know it was written. So, yes.

Do we need to amend that?

You would probably want to amend that.

If you implemented month by month, you're only talking about one month.

Two months, July and August.

All we've been doing is allowing people, instead of buying three or 12 months, we've been saying, do you want to buy two months? Do you want to buy? We just prorated them. Oh, I got you.

Yeah. Were you still charging the $10?

No, no, that was not.

If I remember correctly, I think a big part of our debate hinged on whether we felt like We can get numbers from anywhere sometimes to some extent, right? Are we comfortable with $125 being the expected average cost to a Logan resident? And there was some debate about whether that is the average cost the Logan resident pays, because that's hard to calculate. You're confident in the $125?

I like that number.

Rich, are you confident in $125 as an average rate? I'm not trying to cause an argument here. Sure.

What do you say the average rate to the Logan taxpayer is for a library card?

It's the, it's not the cost. Logan City is taxed. So you can't compare a tax with a charge of service.

What is the taxpayer paying? What is the average house paying? Because every house is paying a certain amount for a library.

The average house pays $125. but half the houses don't use the service. So the cost of service, so you can, I'm confident that the tax is $125 per home.

Is that including commercial?

It's the cost per home. Okay. So the benefit of commercial is rolled into the cost per user.

Sure.

So the tax is $125 on the average home and book. That is absolutely true. The cost In order to get to the cost per user or the cost per household, take the total cost of providing the library divided by the number of households gives you that figure. And that figure is roughly 280.

For those who are using the library.

For those that are using it. But everybody's paying the 125.

Right. But a lot of people pay it, don't use it. But if everyone used it, we wouldn't be able to do it for 125 is what you're saying. but you do feel like we are charging roughly 125 to every household on average.

That is absolutely correct.

Absolutely correct. There are a lot of roughlies in averaging.

It's just you can't conflate the two together. You can't talk about cost and conflate it to property tax. It does not work. Sure. Right. You can decide to charge whatever you want, But those two concepts are different. The cost per home is $125. The cost per household, $280. Use of household, right?

Yes, per household that uses that car.