City Council - Special Meeting

This is a special meeting from June 9th, 2026, convening 1-505-605. Madam City Clerk, can you please do a roll call?

Council Member Bregman?

Here.

Council Member Craig-Hensley? Here. Mayor Hilton-Horley?

Here.

Mayor Lucas?

Here.

Thank you.

Okay, we have one item in this study session and council discussion for growth expansion areas.

All right. Well, thank you everybody for being here. I appreciate it. It's a little, very much appreciated that you came here on a Tuesday night. And so I appreciate that. So thank you. This particular subject is something that is near and dear to my heart. And I know that it's advantageous to you all and obviously to some folks from the community. So thank you for being here. What I'm hoping to talk about today is the topic that we kind of decided upon here last time around when we talked about the strategic planning and its implementation and everything. And so you can go to the next slide. My objectives for today is not to solve all the world's problems. I wish I could. but it's to discuss how do we implement that new milestone theme of managed growth and expansion? I'm hoping to revisit the importance of new growth opportunities in Lodi and look at specific things like why do we need to grow? Where should we look to grow? What's involved in new managed growth and expansion? What tools and resources do we need? Come on in to explore that new growth and expansion. And how do we get there? What's next? And then finally, a discussion of next steps. Now, I should point out that as I go through this, I'm going to bring up some stuff that you've seen in the past. And my hope is to bring this subject into a different way of presenting it to you. And a lot of it's going to be based on my experiences and my practices and everything and my observations while I've been here. So if you go to the next slide. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Okay, so. HAB-Jacques Juilland- that's a little hard to read, but these are your new milestone things that we discovered here. HAB-Jacques Juilland- And you can see in red that first one that we're focusing on is managed managed to look an expansion that's clearly what we're focusing on today to have that conversation, how do you implement what. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Where should it be and everything, but in reality. HAB-Jacques Juilland- It also checks off a few other goals that you have a milestone themes economic growth. and jobs, the other one that received the top votes, fiscal sustainability and revenue, and then also down there, parks and quality of life improvements. And as I'm looking at it, you can also say that this subject applies to housing affordability and even public safety. So this is a very important topic as it stretches across several of your milestone claims. So it's kind of appropriate that we're talking about it so that we can move forward. Now, I will say that the topic of new growth and everything did kind of, you know, it was around before we got into this discussion about the milestone things. I know that last year and looking at, you know, some of the council meetings that you had, special study sessions, there was a lot of talk about, you know, how do we grow and, you know, build our fiscal health and everything. And so that was something that we were, you know, exploring a while ago, but I know that next slide. When I presented this last week, this got everybody's attention as well in terms of our fiscal health right now. This is a snapshot of a forecast. And this shows that we have some work to do. So next slide. And so my question to you all is, that you can't see under that stuff, darn it, is, is new growth the answer? Here's some examples of different types of growth. One of those is a rendering for a site here in Lodi, as a matter of fact. That upper right one you see over there, the missing middle housing, I'm sure you've seen that picture a lot. It's kind of the poster child picture of what we call workforce housing. And then the lower one down there is a typical residential subdivision that's out there somewhere. And what my hope is today is to, you know, kind of as we go through this process to be thinking about what is the proper type of growth to be beneficial. Because I will tell you that, you know, not all new growth is advantageous. And so some of the trends or themes that we find here in Lodi, which is not unique to Lodi, it's everywhere in USA, is that, you know, if we're not looking at a different way of doing it to be healthier, especially from a fiscal sustainability standpoint, are we setting ourselves up for more challenges going forward? So I hope to answer that. I mentioned that, you know, this subject has been presented to the council before. You had three workshops last year. First one was on, you know, growth 101, the general plan process and the annexation process. Then that was followed up the following week with utilities from public works and electric. And then finally, the lower left one was a presentation from a consultant to talk about the different funding options to help with new growth and everything. I thought there was a lot of great work put into that, a lot of good information. And then that was kind of leading up to the last one over here in the lower right, which was a presentation about doing a general plan update and two precise plans. While there was a lot of great work presented, a lot of good information presented, these efforts didn't go anywhere. And I just, again, my observation, no judgment, nothing, but after talking to council, after talking with members of the community, after talking to staff, the fact that this was presented and then went nowhere kind of left everyone flat. HAB-Masyn Moyer- So what do we do next what's what's the next big step, how do we go from this point to the next point, because I think everybody would agree that there's opportunity out there and i'm going to show you so. HAB-Masyn Moyer- My objective for today is to not revisit these things. HAB-Masyn Moyer- you're going to see a couple familiar slides in there, and you can say that we saw that before but it's just for illustration purposes. HAB-Masyn Moyer- i'm not here to solve. infrastructure issues or MSR studies or not MSR. That's not what I'm covering today. Okay. I'm hopefully going to outline a new process, a new way to look at this so that you can have an organized partnership approach to going forward with new growth opportunities. Okay. So with that, next slide. So I'm going to start fresh and that's your general plan map, at least one version of it. Here's another version of it. So I'm looking at this from a fresh standpoint. Where do we go? How do we do it? What's the best way? And because you're a, thank you, you're pretty built out. So the first question I wanted to ask in this fresh start is, do we need to grow? Okay, so next slide. So the answer to that is, how do we figure that out? So I'm a data-driven person. in a variety of different levels. And so I asked the planning department, who was very helpful putting this all together. And so I asked them, what are the remaining opportunities for new single-family homes at any level? Whether it's vacant property, whether it's a tentative map that hasn't been improved yet, whether it's a tentative map that's under construction, and whether it's a permit that's been issued but not final. And the best that we can come up with is that looking at all those potential opportunities, you have an opportunity for 410 more single-family units before you reach build-out. So what does that mean? Next slide. This shows you the past permitting history for the past six years, from the period of 2020 to 2025. If you add those up, you come up with an annual average of about 229 units per year. So depending on, you know, looking at the low to the higher, the average in there, I'm guessing, you know, if things don't dramatically drop out of the market, you're looking at about a two year, two to three year inventory before you run out. And then you're going to say, where do we go next? Okay. So in my mind, this data shows that there is a need to explore going forward. Okay. And I'm sure you already had that same conclusion. Here's some data. to back it up that if we don't help ourselves going forward, we're going to have customers coming in and say, okay, we want to do something, but we're not ready for you. Okay. So what do we do next? Next slide. Now, before we get into where to go and everything, I felt compelled to share some of my observations. Again, these are mine. These are based on what I've seen on my experience. talking with a variety of different people, staff, council, community, leaders, property owners, builders. And so, again, no judgment, just observations. Real quickly, to me, new development here is reactive and developer-driven, market-driven. The city's development process, especially for larger projects, appears uncertain. And that can mean a variety of different things. But what I mean is, is that in my experience, in my way of doing things as a former community development director, my hope is that if you come in and ask for something, I'm able to tell you, here's the process, here's the paperwork, here's how we're going to do it. Okay. For larger projects, that isn't always clear. There's an opportunity there, though. I know there is. And I've been talking to folks about it. And I think that, you know, It just needs some attention and we'll get there. Currently, there's no long range plans for how to promote or handle large scale development projects. I also believe that in looking at the general plan that it does a good job of regulating when growth occurs, but it doesn't really say a lot in terms of how to go forward with the brand new expansion rates. It's kind of silent. There are land use policies that I'll quickly highlight for you or some. to show that it does talk about the future, because as a reminder, hopefully everyone's familiar with the general plan, that's to establish the 20-year vision for how the city's going to grow. So I think it does a good job when growth is occurring, but in terms of specifics, I mean, it paints a picture, but it doesn't really give you any tools of how to get to that picture. Development projects are occurring, but they don't provide sufficient funding mechanisms for new community or regional amenities. Are you getting questions? Not now. Will you be there? Yes. Mayor's running the meeting. Again, observation. This isn't a critique or anything. It's an observation. When I say community or regional amenities, what I'm referring to is since I've been here, I've heard a lot about, well, we need sports amenities for We need kids in programs. We need bigger parks. We need a different community building. We need, you know, those kinds of things. That's what I'm talking about. Again, it's not judgment that development projects aren't picking up their weight. It's simply that, you know, coming from where I've come from, that's how you get those bigger things, is working together to put that stuff in plan and building towards that. Also are falling short for funding new general fund services or providing long-term maintenance opportunities. Case in point, next slide. This is our CFD. This was approved in 2008, I believe, and began the fully implementation in 2014 on all new development projects, residential, multifamily, single-family, multifamily, Just, and those are the items that the CFD is eligible for. So I know that's hard to see, but police protection services, fire protection, suppression services, maintenance of parks, parkways, open space, flood and storm, and services with respect to removal of cleanup of hazardous substances, which hopefully we don't have a lot of. But just to give you an example of that structural Deficit. This past year, we collected $1.1 million in CFD revenue. Last week, we took to council the budget for our general fund departments, and we had to tell them that just public safety and police and fire, we couldn't recommend to them to fund their requests for services and operations and things of that nature. That was $2.8 million. That's not even putting officers on the street or firemen in the firehouses. That's just training, services, equipment, that kind of stuff. And so that needs to be looked at. So how do we do that? Where do we go? So we did reveal, and hopefully you all have it. This isn't a surprise. But these are the areas, and I'll explain what's already been said.

Okay. Now you can open your questions. All right, can you get all the slides?

Okay. While you're getting that information together, this is the city limits. Then we'd use these colors to identify potential areas for annexation. Don't get too caught up in the levels just yet. It doesn't really mean anything except for identification purposes. Let me just start by saying to everyone in here, this is not support or a combination for one thing or the other. The reason that this was put together is to put all the pieces of the board game on the board so council and the community can all see what we're working on. So with that said, where are there opportunities for new growth? Well, as I just mentioned, we have probably two or three years of building permits for residential build-out. So we start looking at the different opportunities that are currently outside of the city limits. Some are outside of the sphere, some are inside the sphere, some are even beyond that in the urban growth area. So currently we have an application for what is affectionately known as the West Side F. We also have an application for the Maverick project that's shown here. The reason that these are color coded, HAB-Jacques Juilland- i'll get to it in a second, then we have the West side urban reserve, we have the East side urban reserve, and then we have two other projects three other projects that have been bantered around before. HAB-Jacques Juilland- With the South study area the East side area and then what we're calling the man of parcels that are just sell the maverick post annexation. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Okay, so this represents everything that's within any boundary line that's on our legend okay. HAB-Jacques Juilland- And it's hard to see, sometimes, and you have to get a real close, but you know we have a city minutes. HAB-Jacques Juilland- When you have your sphere influence which I think everyone's familiar with right that's our area that we've negotiated with the county that says we intend to grow, this is the boundary which we think which we intend to grow. Urban reserve is another area that says, well, that's another plan for growth, but later on. So when you look at an MSR and you look at our general plan, it's like, okay, this is forecasted to be in the 10 to 15 year range. This is greater than around 20 to 30 year range. I think it's going to change obviously. We have to be flexible. We have to be reactive, proactive, but that's something to work with. Now the colors tie to this. And I know that this is hard to read from here, which is why we gave you all handouts. But this to me is kind of the chessboard, if you will. Because admittedly, when I was talking to folks about all the different areas, I myself was getting confused. It's just like, okay, what is needed? What area are we talking about? What are the requirements for this, that, and the other one? Where's the potential priority? So while it took me six months to learn how to sleep again after retiring, it took me two weeks of getting back into this stuff that we'd be waking up at 2.30 in the morning. And so I came up with this and had a lot of help from Cynthia and Luis. But here's what we tried to do. Here's the different areas across the top of all the different annexation areas, okay? Very straightforward. These are the different things that have to be done in order to get to some level of processing an application for new growth and new development. There's a lot of different things here. I can just, you know, is it within the sphere? Is it within the MSR? Do we have preliminary LAFCO support? There's some interesting ones that are contract things, the Woodbridge Fire District. Is there a Williamson Act contract on the property? HAB-Jacques Juilland- Is there a prime farmland that has to be addressed can be at the. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Water district contract, then we start getting into utilities okay and we'll talk about those here in a second you know electric wastewater water storm drain. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Is there sequel analysis done or not, so you see that there's no things that are just part of the process I don't think that there's anything overwhelming here. But they're just steps in the process that we would have to address. And so the goal for this is to show folks, OK, if there's an interest, these are the things that we have to address. And I'll figure out more about this in just a moment. This right here is our best estimate right now of whether or not what applies and what doesn't. And the reason for the colors and the levels is simply that as you go with the level ones, the ones that are currently processing, They don't have as big a need for completing all of these because they've either done some of those or because they're in the spirit, because they're in the MSR, because they're close to utilities. They don't have to check all these boxes. They have fewer boxes to check. So that's why they're level one. Level two is these right here. They're right next to the Maverick parcel. Closer to utilities, closer to those types of things. Again, it's not a judgment call as to which should go, which shouldn't go. It's just simply pointing out what needs to be done, okay? Level three is we get into the east side and the south side. There's been, you know, there's general plan land use designations for these. They've been evaluated in the 2025 EIR update with the DMT ordinance changes. But I have some thoughts about the proposed land use plans on those. I'll share with you in a moment. But again, they're further along. These three over here have the most hurdles to jump. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Again, not a judgment call is just simply an observation that there's more of these things to check the box. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Okay, so that's why you see the color code system that's why we put it in and presented it this way, so that if there's any interest to go anywhere outside. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Current city limits, where do I fall and what am I expected to do is again going back to that earlier statement that I made that. HAB-Jacques Juilland- You know about our process about the unknown, the predictive part. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Any one of these is a lot of work. HAB-Jacques Juilland- It's a lot of investment of your time, your money. It's a lot of investment from the city's HAB-Jacques Juilland- resources. So we want to make sure that we're doing it right and that we're all on the same page going forward. So to me, this is something to get us to start at that point. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Now, will this have to be adjusted? You bet. Okay. This is, you know, a few months of effort to try to evaluate everything that we could in the time. But as we move forward, we'll continue to work on this and update this as needed. And I think the real advantageous thing is that whatever work, you know, as we finish these, whatever work is being done here on these subjects, helps this, helps this, helps this, helps this, et cetera. Okay? So it's a, Full score sheet, if you will. Okay. I'm going to ask you guys, do you have any questions before I jump from this? Oh, is that dangerous?

No, I just want to make a statement. I think people have this question that when you have to reiterate, this is not like the Bible. So all of this can be, like, for example, the website that is there, we can do some things in the next few years or in the next month, and that could be in another section or things like that. And this is just what we have right now when we will get into that later. So just wanted to point that out.

It brings up a good point that I'd like to make. The other valuable thing from my mind on this, whether as a former community development director or as a retired city manager, this helps me present to the council your policy decisions. Okay, I can tell you that, you know, from my standpoint, from a planning standpoint, you know, XYZ works. But if council says, I want to look at, you know, a different area, I want to go west, I want to go east, I want to go wherever, that's policy. Every one of these things requires policy. And I'm going to suggest in a few slides later about a tool that I've used before to help with that process and to help give HAB-Jacques Juilland- earlier thumbs up thumbs down to whether or not this is a policy decision you want to make before everybody starts spending your time and your money on these things okay.

HAB-Jacques Juilland- So back to the CFD. HAB-Jacques Juilland- I know it's not on your spot. But I mean, it's important to point this out because the CFD funding challenges is one of the things that we're working on. We have total funding of 1.1 in public safety and funding of 2.8. It's not as if we've got a CFD in every district in the city. The CFD is limited, correct? And so what we're talking about as well is future CFDs. And in future CFDs, we may or may not, depending on those areas that are developed, have greater needs because we'll have more residents or more businesses or whatever it's within that CFD. And so that number could be more or less, but the public safety unfunded request, 2.8 million, is not limited to the CFD area. It's citywide, correct?

Well, so the CFD money goes into the general fund pot, which goes to fund the I need some fire services and all the other general fund department services and parts of where it both works for the entire community. I may get in trouble here, so city attorney, stop me if I cross that line. If anybody that's paying CFD can't say, okay, where's mine? Right. That's not how it works. But to your point, jumping ahead a little bit, when I talk about the tools for consideration to do this, it would be my recommendation that you strongly look at that, you know, whichever area you go first, that you decide from a policy standpoint that any of these areas need to be part of a new annexation CFD. And so that everyone is paying into that expansion for service. Because I think there's one thing that we can all agree on is that any of these areas, for the most part, maybe this little one or that one, don't know. We haven't completed the analysis yet, but is going to trigger a new demand for any and all of those services. You know, this area is slated to have parks. Okay. So how are we going to continue to fund the park?

So I think my point is the fact that CFD is a tool. And it's something we weren't using 60 years ago.

No, and you're not alone.

Right. And so the point of that is that we're looking at CFD, but we're looking at other tools we can reuse. to deal with the needs of the entire community because of the fact that we need to address shortfalls across the city, not just the rapid areas that CFD is.

That's true. But for purposes of mitigating impacts associated with new development, that's your limitations for these. You're not able to go back and address existing deficiencies here with the typical tools that you see used with new development. Case in point, and I'll touch on these again later, your AB1600 impact fields, your developer impact fields. That goes for infrastructure. Well, that's not going to be used to fix an efficient road improvement there or a busted water line or something like that.

I just want to be clear about the fact that we're looking at the new development areas and what we can do in those new development areas with what central themes or other ways we're doing, the reality is it still doesn't fix our legacy neighborhoods and our needs in those neighborhoods. That's what I mean.

It can't, but I will say that in jumping to the punchline a little bit, it would be my recommendation that if you do any of these, you need to explore new methods because you don't want to create more these, right? So while you can't use these new tools to fix this, what you can do is there's other mechanisms, citywide mechanisms, and forgive me another four letter words, assessment districts, benefit districts, um, those kinds of things for your existing population. And that's where you basically say, look, um, We don't have the funds. We don't have the mechanism in place. We need your help. If you want to have these types of things, these improvements, we need your help. And I know a lot of cities that are, I mean, I know more cities that are doing that than aren't. But anyway, so does that answer your question? Okay. All right. So we'll keep moving then. Okay. So one I wanted to do next is kind of, without going through you know, this matrix here about, you know, what they all have and what they don't have. Here's just kind of a quick summary. So the challenges that you have in these areas, any of them, and some may be greater than others, you know, whichever you're looking at, okay? But infrastructure availability, I'll show you a couple of slides on that. Some of these areas are within the existing sphere, other are not. Some are within the municipal services review areas, some are not. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Another one that i'll show you going back to data is the number of property owners parcels on here okay. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Sometimes the conceptual land use designation. HAB-Jacques Juilland- To quick discussion on that jobs housing guys Okay, are we planning, are we putting the right land use on these things to give you the proper jobs housing balance, so that will not skew okay. HAB-Jacques Juilland- It was funny my first. planning job way, way back when. I was all excited about all the new residential subdivisions we were doing. And the city manager came out and said, you've got to stop that. I said, why? Because that cost me a million dollars for a fire station, a million dollars for police. Okay, well, where's the non-residential? Where's the jobs and those kinds of things? And so you have to look at that. HAB-Jacques Juilland, You absolutely have to look at that you've heard of the problem, you know the term bedroom. HAB-Jacques Juilland, Those communities are struggling because they are dominated by residential with that needs a whole bunch of services, but it's not generating a lot of tax revenue from the city, as we shared with you, I think it was at the last budget meeting, you know the city gets. HAB-Jacques Juilland, 57% or so of its revenue from property taxes steps. And that goes right into the general fund for all these general fund services. And then the other challenge is contracts with those agencies that I mentioned to you, okay? And that is not unique to Lodi either. I come from a couple of different agencies where districts, when you, and what I'm meaning by that is, is if you're in an area here that is currently receiving services from the county, a district, their budget is predicated on that property being So they're billing that. They're receiving revenue from that property. So when that property comes out, they have a hole in their budget. So we have to negotiate with them. How do we make them, or they're going to tell you, you need to make us full. And sometimes you get ridiculous requests. We need to make you make us full at the top value for 50 years. Okay, that's kind of silly. But that's a process, okay? Some of the opportunities though, having said all of it, HAB-Jacques Juilland- Those negatives some of these have general plan land use designations that can be a good thing that is an advantage that also gives you some level of sequel analysis, as I mentioned earlier. HAB-Jacques Juilland- But is that the right language is that what the property owners are interested in is that what the Community means. HAB-Jacques Juilland- You do have sizable property areas that allow for spreading project costs and what I mean by that is is that i'll show you here in a second. HAB-Jacques Juilland- The easiest example is is that to get to some of these properties, a lot of infrastructure needs to be brought to whether it's one unit for 1000. HAB-Jacques Juilland- We don't build half of this substation we don't build you know one inch line that converts to a 54 inch line later, we have to build the ultimate improvement. HAB-Jacques Juilland- And so, if you have a bigger land area that has a bigger service population ultimately there's a greater opportunity to spread that cost okay. HAB-Masyn Moyer- And then finally over here in the east side area. HAB-Masyn Moyer- there's a real opportunity for job creation, because of the industrial zone and i'll share that in one of those models so let's see some of those examples. HAB-Masyn Moyer- So you've seen these before don't really want to you know explain them just simply to show that you know in the three areas that were studied last year. the west side F, the south area, and the east area. Water, wastewater, storm drain were evaluated. Some of these areas are in better shape than others. Some do need improvements. We need some health down over here in the east industrial area. South area needs some improvements as well as you see there. And when you look at the updated cost for those improvements, we're looking at about $15 million. Now, the areas that you don't see on there, It's not because we're ignoring those, but because they're not evaluated in those master plans yet. So if you wanted to go over here, if you wanted to go over here, you'd have to update these points.

Okay. So quick question. Yes. The 50 million is for both or both sections?

For all of those improvements.

But there's a few caveats in it. All right.

It assumes that our fee program is updated. It assumes some developer contribution, that kind of thing. Next slide. This is the electric system. Everybody's familiar with the 230 KV line coming in here and then going down here with our 60 KV line. We need three substations for our part. Once again, it looks at these areas. It doesn't analyze this area or this area. So those would need to be evaluated. And how does this system, you know, catch up? And so the other thing that we'll have to look at, again, without getting into too many specifics, is that, you know, ideally we're starting here. Because this is where, you know, on the east side. Because this is where the big line's coming in. And, you know, Jeff has said a couple of times publicly that he can't build half a substation. And this is a network. And so how it all works together. So those improvements for the substations and the 60 KB line is just under 70 million. And so how do you spread that cost? Again, if it's one unit or a thousand units, that substation needs to be in there. Okay. So that's some of the challenges that I see with the infrastructure. It's great that we have plans for it for some of these areas in here. Not yet here. That doesn't mean we can't study it. We just need time, energy, and resources. Next slide. This is what I was talking about in terms of the number of properties and property numbers. gives you a list of all these different annexation areas over here and the total acreage and the total number of properties based on our database and then the total number of property owners. Now, I've worked on some very large specific plans in my time. One is the size of Rockland, actually, but I've never had more than 13 property owners involved. So as you can see, there's... There's quite a few numbers in here, but that, you know, again, just sharing the data with you. Okay. But that does create more of the challenge, especially when we start getting to the different types of models for new development, new growth that I'll get to in just a second. So next slide. Now bring this up in the next slide, not to say, see, this is what we showed you last year. Okay. This reflects what, over here. This is that area here. And you can see it has, you know, a general plan language definition. The next slide I'm going to show you is for this area over here, which has a general plan language definition. That is valuable. Okay. That means that you don't have to go into this area and request a general plan language amendment. You don't have to do an environmental document for it. This has general plan and an EIR on it. Now, my question would be, is this the right designation? Is this the right balance? I've looked around. I've asked. I don't get a strong answer as to this is gold. I also don't know if the property owners out here want this. I don't know when you did your 2010 general plan or when this was done if this was the popular consensus. We're fortunate in the city hall business that we get to work with the landowners and developers on what this looks like. It is a policy decision. The government code of the state of California allows us to amend this a certain number of times. So in my experience of doing this, as long as I've done it, there is opportunity for flexibility. So I just show that to show you that this particular plan Again, I'm not suggesting that residential is bad. It's not. It definitely serves a very important purpose for that missing middle that I showed you. We're going to bring new jobs. We need a place to go and to live. And I'm referring to all types. So the multifamily to the executive housing. You need all of those. But this is dominated by residential. Conversely, the next slide. The east area over here, you can see here that this is dominated by non-residential. This is what we call our job sector area.

And this is a real opportunity.

But I will tell you that I don't know that this site's ready just yet because there are other infill sites. There are underutilized corridors. But I'll show you here in a moment that I think that there is an exciting opportunity for that. especially in light of what the council just recently approved. Next slide. I've thrown out, where should we go? We have these different opportunities. Now, how should these areas be planned? Because I'm throwing darts at it. Give me what you would recommend. Well, I would start with our general plan. This is what that document's intended to do. I'm not going to bother reading that to you, but basically it's to establish the vision, and give you the tools and the direction on how to achieve that vision. But admittedly, that's a 30,000 foot level vision. It's designed to be 20, 30 years. I know in my 30 years plus of doing this, the whole world's changed sometimes. Markets change, products change. Office used to be the big thing, right? You can't give away office now. It's being converted to indoor sports facilities or apartments or whatever. So who would have thought that? So it has to be fluid. And the general plan has those policies in. But the one thing that I did want to point out in the general plan that I think sends a real strong message to the message I'm trying to share with you all is the next slide, which is that section in the general plan, 2.4, economic development.

This one I'll read just that part.

The general plan seeks to provide balanced land uses that generate adequate revenue to pay for the cost of services provided. Combination of office, retail, visitor service, attraction, blah, blah, blah, blah. The new growth areas provide land for potential large employment opportunities. That to me is kind of your overarching objective for the new growth areas that you want to be smart about the different types of land use that you use and the tools that you use to promote that so that We don't, to your point, council member, that we don't get ourselves in a further situation where we can't maintain, eat, add to those great neighborhoods that you have here already. Now, in addition to the general plan related to economic development, as I mentioned, next slide, you recently approved your economic development strategic plan. Interestingly enough, I mean, obviously it talks a lot about economic development, but there's stuff in here about the general plan as well. The top one is related to the action plan, which is to create development, redevelopment capacity in other commercial and industrial areas, including your annexation areas. So it's already identifying that, hey, the strategic plan for economic development needs to look in these areas. That's an opportunity area. Okay, but then what do we do? So the goals revolve around strategic attention to a range of foundational conditions. Now, I wasn't here when that was drafted. But I interpret that to be is that these are the core of what we need to be what we need to do. And you look at them, and it kind of crosses a whole gamut of different things. First one, the city's reputation for business development trendliness. Well, HAB-Jacques Juilland- I think anyone and everyone that i've talked to you out here is said that's number one Okay, and I know that we like to say that we're open for business but. HAB-Jacques Juilland- We are, but it's a good business is there an opportunity to provide better business. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Okay, so that's part of this process and i'll get to more on that in a second land zoning infrastructure capacity, especially in the annexation areas. We need to be studying that. We need to be prepared for that. The one I didn't highlight is because that's kind of out of our control, the entrepreneurial development resources. But give Luis a week, he'll figure it out. Education workforce development systems. That kind of falls into that one up above, but this is where if you are creating clusters, such as your economic development strategy talks about, if you're going for an industry, it certainly helps to have the workforce that translates into that next level for jobs. And so that's what that's talking about. And I've seen cities do this so proactively that they changed the whole scandal. Henderson, Nevada. Is anybody familiar with Henderson? It's a very rich community. They have two Dell Webb senior communities. They are dominated by people my age. So what did they do? One of the things that they did that I thought was extremely creative when we went to visit them, they said, well, we have this demographic of our population that needs services, but hospitals won't come here because there's not the workforce. So they changed their charter so that they could go ahead and help with education for nursing schools and so forth. So they created a whole education system to attract hospitals that now have some of the highest ranking hospitals there to take care of those rich old folk. Just to be blunt. Like me.

Well, no.

Not like me. Not like me.

Old folk, yes. Old folk, yes. I'm not covering for pension, guys.

Come on. Anyway, that's my point. And I will tell you one of the things that I was very fortunate to be a part of in the last community that I left. We had the largest biomanufacturing company in the world. But what else? And they, being the industry giant, kind of just stood by themselves. Okay, so how do we take advantage of this? And we looked at it and said, you know, 45,000 people are leaving our community every day to go to the Bay Area. And then they come back here from the Bay Area jobs, and they're buying up all the homes that our kids can't afford to buy now. So how do we fix that? Well, we need different types of housing and we need living wage jobs. That was the answer. How do we create living wage jobs? We happen to have one of four junior colleges in the country that gives a four-year degree program for biomanufacturing. Getting kids, we got STEM and STEAM programs in the high schools. So they have a program to go to the junior college, which, by the way, is free. It costs $10,000, but the governor has a program that de-covers that cost if you get your degree. Kids were graduating that program before they actually got their diploma were being scooped up by bio companies that were offering them six-figure salaries. Plus, biomanufacturing is the same equipment that's used to make beer, so they're, you know, they're doing some good downtown contributions as well. Anyway, my point is, is that if you have a purpose and a focus that, like, this plan is focusing on, you can build an economy, okay? But you have to be proactive and smart about it. So that's the education piece. Placemaking initiatives, okay, that leverage Lodi's unique location advantages and sense of community. And then finally, overall image of quality of life. To me, those are the quality of life instruments are what attract those executives that have their companies that want to come here and say, look, I have something special. And, you know, I can bring my company here and it has housing for my frontline workers to my executives. You know, it's got good parks. It's got good schools. The roads are always clean. Those kinds of things. Trust me. They're looking at that. When a company comes in, the first thing that they do is they watch and look at everything from when they got off the freeway to city hall. Guaranteed. They tell me that all the time. And if it looks like crap, they know that they have a challenge. But even with budgetary challenges, if it looks clean and green, we'll have that conversation with you about investing. So those are all things that, in my mind, relate directly to this, our process, our budget, Those other milestone themes, you know, of the parks and quality of life, which have three dots. By the way, someone did mention we were tuning the dots. They're still in number one. They said, watch it. And I said, we're not doing dots. So anyway, to me, between the general plan and this kind of gives you the framework of how should we develop. So now what? Next slide. The tools needed. In my mind, and again, in my experience, I do think you need a general plan update. It's been a while. You have updated certain elements, but I will tell you that, you know, at a minimum, you absolutely have to amend the first two because there's maps in there that don't match these maps. So right there, you have to change those. But I also think that there's opportunity to start talking about, okay, how do we think more proactively on certain things? Parks and open space. There was lots and lots of conversation last year when we were talking about parks. Do we have a park moratorium? Are parks going to be drainage ditches? Are they going to be bioswales? Are they going to be this? Are they going to be that? I think another opportunity to look for in your park standards is right now your neighborhood park does not have an acreage stand. Should it? It helps. Safety. Safety.

Not that I'm picking on fire department, but this is something that needs to happen.

Okay, right now we have a general plan map that says, here's where our fire stations are and plan to be. With these new areas and, you know, the chief's, you know, excellent work that he's been doing on these things. We need what we call standards and cover reports to show the data of how do I meet all my response times in the existing community and the new community. with my location and my fire stations. Data-driven to drive the decisions of where we're making investments in the community.

Is there an opportunity to put more in there about economic development?

I was impressed that you do have a section in there for economic development, but that was 10 years ago. Now you have an economic development strategy that can absolutely ramp that up. And a lot of cities do that and put that in their general plans. I'm going to skip over the bottom bullets just for a minute. Well, maybe not. Project financing plan.

Project financing plan. Actually, no. I'm going to skip them.

Sorry. I'm going to jump to this one. This is something that our planning department is proactively working on right now. We're affectionately calling it phase four code amendments. That means that there's been three other ones. When I say code amendments, that's the municipal code. The general plan is your vision. The municipal code is the handbook of How to fix stuff. Merit hearing process. I'll come back to that. Clear annexation process. Okay. What I mean by that is if you come to the front counter and say, okay, I was so inspired by Aaron's talk. I want to annex. How do I do it? Let me look. That needs to improve. Now it's not that bad when I do that for dramatic effect, but we want to have a packet. We want to have, you know, a clear, handout that here's what it is, here's your, you know, timing, et cetera, et cetera. Here's everything that you need to help me process this for council. Williamson Act transfer process. I mentioned that, you know, some of these properties out here and, you know, in the county outside our city limits have current Williamson Act contracts. For those of you who don't know what those are, those are basically, you know, tax credit programs with the government to say that my farmland You know, shouldn't be priced at, you know, the prime. It's at this lower level for, you know, for agriculture purposes. So they kind of buy down their tax rate. And so that has a time limit that doesn't change just because the property goes from county to city. So we need to have a process by which to accept that and continue to transfer that because that property is still obligated until it's paid off, right? HAB-Masyn Moyer- agricultural mitigation fee so again is this is prime firmly we have to mitigate that there's conservancy there's agencies that we have a mitigation rate I think Cindy it's one to one right now, which is extremely. HAB-Masyn Moyer- surprising because everywhere, I've been has been where I just retired from they went from three to one trying to go to five. HAB-Masyn Moyer- master plan requirement i'll come back to that in a minute. Development agreement requirement and cost recovery program are part of these other pieces that I'm suggesting council consider when you get into this. Real quickly, the merit hearing process. Again, going back to my example, I want to go annex here. Okay, what do I do? Well, I think there's a lot and we're working on it. And we think you're going to need this. We think you're going to need that. We know it's going to take a lot of time. We know it's going to take a lot of money. But what I don't know for sure is if the council wants to do that. There's all these other areas. Does the council want to go here? Do they want to go there? Do they want to go there?

So... Just to clarify. Yes, ma'am. The merit process, are you talking about the urban growth boundary areas? Are you talking about... You're not talking about the SLI.

You're just talking about... No, I am talking about the larger areas. I'm talking about all of them. Because to me, let me... I'll explain what I believe this process is intended to do. Because even though this is in your sphere, this is still discretionary. It's policy and it's discretionary. Because there are general plan amendments that are needed. There are discretionary actions that need to be taken. You get to identify the process that you want to push this through. So the merit hearing process is for the the sole purpose of not giving preliminary approval to their project. So walk with me through it for a second. You know, throw a dart here. I'm coming in. I really want to do this right now. And here's some ideas of how I'm thinking of doing it. Okay. We think that that covers a lot of it, but we know that it's going to take, 12 to 18 months. We know that we need a new EIR. We know that we need staff time. We know that we need updated studies. Who's going to cover all that? How are we going to do that? How are we going to give you assurances that we can provide a worthwhile product? Because I'm not suggesting it happens here, but I've worked for other agencies that you do that. And you say, OK, I'm going to submit my application. You gave me enough confidence that you're going to handle it. Then they come back six months later and say, OK, where am I? Well, we're handling it. Well, who's working on it? The guy who's doing full plan checks right now. That's not a good way to do business with these type of economic engines. The merit hearing process, what it does is it's a first step. Here's the package. Here's what we're thinking. We think it's going to bring you, you know, 4,000 homes, 2,000 jobs, you know, 80 acres of park, whatever, you know, whatever. Okay. But it needs these seven entitlements. It needs this amount of time. We want, I'm sorry, I'm speaking for developers just based on our experience. We want to guarantee you that it's not going to take two years. We want to be involved in how it's going to be processed and who's going to be the, you know, reviewing and handling. Okay. Fair enough. We package that all up. And with the merit hearing process, we take that to counseling. See, here's what we got. Here's what we think we need to help package it and make it real, you know, nice and neat. And we think that we can do this, but do you guys want to go there? Oh, by the way, Making it for dramatic effect. The neighbors out here say, heck no. There's all kinds of problems. There's a toxic landfill out there. People are going to complain. Do you really want to go out there? No, not right now. Or you may say, yeah, that's great. What that does is before you, on the developer side, go out and write more big checks, spend more time, which costs more big checks, you get and commitment from the Council that we're going to process this. That doesn't mean we're going to approve it. It has to go through all those processes. It has to go through the EIR and show that there's no significant unavoidable impacts. You have to go through, going back here, a project financing plan. We have a financing plan to show that we can support the infrastructure that's necessary to get way out there. We do a fiscal impact analysis. What that is, is to show, okay, I'm just going to say for safe assumptions bet that our existing area is negative when it comes to fiscal impact analysis. And what I mean by that is the amount of money that is generated versus the cost of services is not enough to cover the cost of services. That earlier slide that I showed you points that out very clearly. To help ensure that we're not further compounding that challenge, you get a plan, pick a plan, you do a fiscal impact analysis. And what that shows is that the land use that is expected to come in is going to generate X amount of revenue. And I'm sorry, I told you in the first meeting, I'm a business owner. I need to generate revenue because I have to write a lot of checks to serve all the other demands. Okay? So we're... How much revenue will this generate with this land use? How much will it cost with that land use? So is this plan net neutral, net positive, net negative? And how does that play into the other? When I worked in Roseville, we processed three specific plans all at once. It was crazy. But thankfully, we did process three ones. Because one plan was 80, 90% residential, a big financial drain on the city. Another one was, you know, 64, better. The one I worked on, thank goodness, was heavily in the non-residential area. That plan carried all three of them. So that's the value of doing that fiscal impact analysis.

What's the period of fiscal impact? analysis is typically five years, 10 years, 20 years, because you've got development going on that's happening for a period of time versus if it's not.

Well, that's a science in and of itself, quite honestly. That's a very fair question because I've seen some that are very short term. I've seen some that are very long term that kind of drag out the conclusion. And there are resources to help with that. But I think depending on what you're focusing on, that has an effect on how you want to look at that. So generally speaking, I'm used to them being 10 years. Now, going back to some of these other things, and I apologize, I'm getting close. And this may seem one-sided from the city's perspective, but I'm representing your interest here. We need an updated efficiency development process. We need to update our AB1600 impact fee study. This is what is known as the development impact feed. This is where we take an annual report to the council every year to show that how we plan on funding new development for roads, water, sewer, storm drain, parks, fire stations, city hall buildings related to new development, only related to new development. So this does not pick up any deficiencies from where we're currently at. But the last time we did this was 2021. Okay. By law, that's supposed to be updated every five years. So we're there. And I think Sean, we're planning on doing that going forward. So that's good. And then finally, you need an updated environmental analysis to go along with this stuff. Now, that seems like a lot, but It is. Oh, I forgot this one. Master plan requirement. To do all those things, to do all of these things, with these big pieces of land outside of here, to me, there's a variety of different ways that that can be done. And I'll cover those in just a second. But I'm just going to, my bias, I think the master plan requirement is the best way to go. Because you're coordinating all of this stuff in one comprehensive process. It requires a little bit more homework up front, but it saves you so much time and headache in the vacuum. And a master plan with a development agreement can absolutely be amended. In my time in Roseville, I was pulling out old specific plans that were on amendment number 13. You know, ideally a specific plan, precise plan, whatever you want to call it. There's different levels of these things. So that's why I called it master plan. But my background personally is in specific plans. You know, ideally that's for a 25 to 30 year work. And you accompany that with the development agreement, because again, in my mind, this is a partnership, right? The specific plan sets out the vision. What's your obligation? What's the city's obligation? Those obligations are memorialized in the development room. It says, you're going to put this in. The city's going to have that in its fee program. You're going to receive reimbursements and credits. You're going to put this improvement in, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it gives that process definition. Okay. Now, again, things change. The market crashes and it takes, you know, 35 years, longer. That product type doesn't work anymore. You need to come back and amend it. But you need council's approval because, again, it's a policy discretionary decision to make. Next slide. The master plan element, the way I got there, as I mentioned earlier, the general plan does a good job of identifying how to do growth when it's happening. But in terms of how to go forward, with new opportunity areas, it's kind of silent. But if you look at the general plan growth policies, and there's lots of them, but with Cindy's help who put it together for me, I did the counting, 25% of the growth policies deal with something that absolutely mandates by de facto a master plan requirement. My point is that you can't ensure that these things happen without a master plan. Because it talks about coordination. It talks about doing specific improvements. You can put those in your general plan. You can put those in your zoning ordinance. But they're much more effective than a master plan. Next slide. So wrapping up, what are some of the different models that implement this? To me, there's kind of three levels. You can allow the general plan to develop as it currently is set up for you. What that means is that someone comes in and says, my property's on this. I want to build that. My property is here. I want to build that. Well, that promotes single parcel development. And it's not very effective or efficient because, again, If this parcel triggers the need for a $30 million improvement line, I'm going to get laughed out of the building if I tell them that's a condition of improvement. We have to pay for all of it. That's uneconomically infeasible. The other way, and I appreciate what we were trying to do last year, is that the city takes the lead and initiates new master plans. I think they were called precise plans for those two areas that I showed you. and including the preparation and funding of the applicable documents. In my mind, the city has a better use of its funding. And I think that that option does not encourage the property owners to get involved and be engaged in how their property is developed. I don't want to spend a year or two years of my life thinking I know what they want. Come to you. Now, obviously, I wouldn't do this, but That's kind of what this leans to. Only to be said, well, why'd you do that? I don't want that. I want to go here. I want to do that. I want to do this. So that's where we get to the final one. And to me, again, it goes back to just my long-time professional philosophy of development is a partnership. We need you to do your development. We need to set the table to help you be successful in that. But we all need to do A variety of different things that I'll share in just a second. So again, I already mentioned it could require more time, but it ensures better collective motivation. Last slide, I think. No, there's two more slides. To me, this is my bias, fully admitted, full disclosure. But if you put the tools that I shared with that particular model, it does require an investment on both sides. It requires a common interest, a shared vision, right? It doesn't make sense that if we're going to go into this partnership, that it's like, I want to build, you know, nothing but townhomes. We don't need those. We need something else. Or we need, you know, more industrial. We need more retail, whatever. We got to find a way. Willingness to explore options. I know one of the biggest things that comes up is that your new fee, your new requirement, your new this, your new charge, your new charge this, makes the price of building one of my homes $80,000 a door. I can't afford that. Okay, that's fair. That's absolutely fair. But what if I was to take and face some of those infrastructure improvements differently? And we put some of those infrastructure improvements in our impact fee program. or as part of our capital improvement program. So now the cost of those improvements goes down. So the cost per door goes down. So we get the infrastructure, you get the infrastructure, you get a fee cost per door that works for you. We get a product that works for the community. Just need to have the conversation. Are we going to see eye to eye on everything? No, but we need to be at the table, committed to the process. I firmly believe in no surprises. I'm not going to get you real close to the council meeting and then say, oh, I need a loop waterline. It's only another 20 million bucks. I mean, that doesn't work. Obviously, you need ongoing and open communication, and we absolutely need council support. That's where that merit hearing process helps give you that early identification for, you know what, we want you to explore this. This could be a good project for us. You have our attention. You have our resources and commitment to it. And then you get this. And I state my career on it, that if you do what's over on the left side, you get this. You get deliverables, you get accountability. You get timeliness, fairness, predictability. And while I can't give development money, because that adds, you know, this whole fair market value, I've found in my career that if I can give a developer these things, that's worth more than money. It's not going into the black hole. Positive win-win outcomes, a well-planned project, and again, the potential for bigger amenities for the community. Because if I'm looking at bigger areas and we're working together on the fee structure and fee program, hey, you know, the city really could benefit from A. It could benefit from Z. I mean, and it doesn't have to be a fluffy, you know, green park. Again, in some of the cities I've worked in, let's say, for example, I have an interchange problem up here. And I don't know where I'm going to get the $6 million because nobody has it. We've gone and looked at regional, state, local. But your project contributes to that. I need your help. Help me get up there. So there's all different kinds of ways to explore this thing. And so that's, to me, that model and those tools And again, if you put it in a master plan document, put it in a development agreement, it locks it in, there's predictability. There's accountability because it says, right, you're going to do this because you're doing that. Last slide. Next steps, finally. Our proposal to you is that we would like to finish these level one projects. And as we do that, check as many boxes as we can here. We'd like to finish work on our phase code four amendments, bring those back to council, the stakeholders group interested and involved in it on those amendments. So we are bringing those tools to you so that we're setting the table for any of this to happen. And then I would suggest that to find out beyond today what the level of interest is in this, You know, start doing the outreach campaign. Start talking with property owners, the builders, the building industry, the real estate industry, and start getting feedback on this because we can't do this without their interest, their investment, and their desire to go forward. My hope is that as you go out and start talking to folks, you know, we work on solidifying these sorts of things. you know, does the merit hearing process work? How do we make that work to their advantage to your advantage? And then the goal would be is that at some point in time, you get enough interest in this to say, I want to go pick a spot. And then we started. So I know that took a while, but I hope that this is helpful because here's the thing. This now levels the playing field in my mind. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Council community now has this to say okay well if I want to go pick a spot. HAB-Jacques Juilland- What do I need to do, what do I need to do, and if the Council says Okay, well, this may be more challenging than that one, but we really want to go here. HAB-Jacques Juilland- You can have that conversation and say from a policy standpoint, we want to go there and then staff is going to tell you okay, but you still need to do all this. HAB-Jacques Juilland- and Who's our partner in this? Because given our budget situation, I want to suggest doing this on our own. And again, the landowners are the ones, I mean, the city hall benefits from it because we're adding a quality project to the community that, you know, hopefully the entire community will be proud of and benefit from. It's really the property owner is also benefiting from that as well. And that's the name of the business, right? In both ways. So I threw a lot at you there and turn it over to you now.

Well, first of all, I want to thank you because I think I asked you for this a few months ago, like the first week that you were here. So this is definitely before you even got here. Yeah, probably. So thank you for this. I know it's been a lot, but this is what the competition there, which the council's previous year have had many, many years ago. So we're in that process. So we are going to go to council members. And then later to follow comments. So I can leave now, right? No. Sure. We're going to put you in the hot seat. Well, your salary is good, but that just means you can drink on the job.

Yeah, go ahead. I just want to echo the mayor's comment about thank you, because I think the reality is that Three or so years ago, I remember asking relatives when we got an SRI. And we said it because it's taken that long. And what's critical is those property owners. I mean, I think every decision we make is based on the fact that are they ready for this yet? I mean, the annexation area for the Maverick, I didn't know that was even out there until it kind of came into us. So I think it's really important to sit down with those property owners. My primary concern is the SMI area because that's what I've been designated. Obviously the areas that are in phase one, you know, that's already in the potential implementation stage. But I mean, I think all of those in the phase one or level one, level two, level three of the priorities because we already have the property owners here. We've heard from those property owners. And to me, we're back to the public outreach to key stakeholders. That's got to occur first with those areas that are under our primary concern, because we are back to the council's interest with managed growth. So that's our primary concern. And these are the next steps we have to develop. I think that outreach begins soon rather than later. It's all happening at the same time. This isn't sequential. It's basically continuing with all of this. and finding out from them. And I think the point they'll need for a beginning, is it really the right land uses? In essence, some of the designs that were put out there perhaps were well-intended, but is it the right land use for what our needs are as a city and to that jobs to housing ratio? Because again, our economic development goals are to raise the average and to create more jobs and opportunities. So again, sitting down with the property owners and talking with them about what they're seeing and needing and seeing interest in from developers as to what should go there. But then how do we balance that with future development on the east side and south area? And if we're going to get housing in one section, we may need to get more commercial housing. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Manufacturing industrial. HAB-Masyn Moyer- And that's where I can see us. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Really sit down with all of us, unfortunately. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Land owners that we're going to have to look at.

HAB-Masyn Moyer- Well, if I could, first of all, thank you for for the comments that we want to pass on my appreciation to was somebody released just John. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Christina. and both chiefs, they were very helpful in putting this all together. Just to make sure, you know, you did mention phase. And that's not a Freudian slip because if you look at our general plan map, there is an exhibit that shows this is phase one, this is phase two, this is, and it doesn't match any of this. So I steered away from that because to me, that's something that as you go forward and look at this, you'll need to update in your general plan you know, document. So the levels is really referring to the level of number of challenges, number of boxes to check, needs to be part of the least, second least, a little bit more, all of that.

Yeah. And, you know, I think I want to come here with like the point that you guys talked about there. This, the whole, the point of this conversation is to understand that these documents are evolving. that we can switch to the phases too. If that's what the community wants, the council wants this, because obviously the previous master plan hasn't worked out how we planned it out. So this is an opportunity to have all these kind of conversations and see if we need to update those phases too.

But I'm still back to, it's about the project. Yeah, no, it's about the project. So to me, that's the first place of conversation.

That's why I think, HAB-Jacques Juilland- That the well intended effort of the city initiated into your size plans and pay for the general plan and everything. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Is is not as valuable or beneficial or healthy by doing it this way, because now they're at the table there, you know, helping HAB-Jacques Juilland- You know, finalize the vision and hoping finalize how things are going to happen. They have to look at their bottom line, make sure it works. HAB-Jacques Juilland- You know i'm not here to tell them how much you know they're to make the mountain. HAB-Jacques Juilland- But you know that's where we look at how we create a window so absolutely. HAB-Jacques Juilland- And that model that i'm suggesting, and I can take you to several different cities, and you know just so happens that your income the city manager in the city she worked for. HAB-Jacques Juilland- practices that using that model and they've been very successful effort.

One of the cities I worked with is very successful with it. So it works.

So two items. I don't see any WID members in here. That's correct. I would suggest we should also have them in some of these meetings.

Absolutely. If I didn't mention it, the other industries and districts and stakeholders, the other agencies,

HAB-Jacques Juilland- We should absolutely be on the search and when it comes to w ID I think it will be a little bit more complex than the list kind of said, and again, this is very simple and I appreciate it because. HAB-Jacques Juilland- it's very organized helps you understand pretty good right and but I do think it's going to be more complex than no or yes to the contracts right or talking about the entire city. HAB-Masyn Moyer- What is w asking for the entire city to do as far as quality water filtration, not like so. HAB-Masyn Moyer- My understanding is i've been talking to staff about you know, this was with James Lindsay and. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Sometimes you get this. HAB-Masyn Moyer- The bar that probably just sit down with people trying to throw meetings on. HAB-Masyn Moyer- So I can't imagine. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Yeah. HAB-Jacques Juilland- But ultimately, I was told we're going to have a meeting with wb sometimes soon, it would be nice to figure out what their requests are entire city and my individual property basis, we need to do with anything. HAB-Jacques Juilland- The last thing would be organizational capacity, so I would love to hear your opinion. HAB-Jacques Juilland- city manager tells director of development and public works, this is what we need to do to update all these plans and they just hand it over. and check in on a weekly basis. I mean, that's one way to do it. Or are we planning on and recommending to put a team together? What does a team look like? What are some words of wisdom you have for the organizational capacity to really push the projects?

Thank you for both of those questions. And first, let me go back to these. The fact that this nice and simple look here, I think every one of these is pulling teeth from a wildcat. potentially, and time consuming. So forgive the ease of presentation to not represent the actual ease to implement, because you're absolutely right. It took me six years to work with the fire district to get to it. And I never did get resolution with the irrigation district. So those are challenges. But to your point, I think going to any of those other agencies with something like this, with a plan that says, we're trying to prepare for any one of those. And you can see now we have some structure to it. You can see that we're putting some insight to the big picture. You're going to get better cooperation, I believe, because now it's not just, ah, there they go again. They're reacting, and they have another request. Well, okay, what's the standard answer? 18 months. Now you know it. No, now we can sit down and say, hey, look, we've been given instruction because we've got interest. And that's the other point. Going back to how to do this, I think doing that before you make any decisions in terms of going out and talking to every state building and saying, what is your feel for this? Because Let's say I go out and I talk to property owners out here or someone goes out and talks to property owners over there and they say, are you kidding me? We're ready. We're ready right now. Oh, well, snap. We've got to talk about updating all these other master plans things. So if I, forgive me, I keep saying I. If the city manager says, go out and update the plans, finalize the plans. But then all of a sudden, you know, a month later, you've got someone saying, knock it on the door. and want to do this, then it's like, okay, how do we prepare the entire company well?

So the first step is outreach, but then once you have the outreach and your to-do list is completed, what does that organizational?

So depending on what you get back then, I swear to goodness, I'm not trying to be a to-do list. It really depends on the feedback that you get, okay? If you get somebody that wants to start tomorrow on this, let's say, then we try to get those amendments to the council in front of the council for merit hearing. Is this something the council wants us to do? Then I know that I have to make sure and evaluate, okay, what does this require? Does it require any infrastructure upgrades? No. What we have is good. Same thing. If this comes in two tomorrows, Okay, what do we need to do? And then that's where we put the resources, okay? But that's where I also think that through that merit handling process and the shared cost, again, my experience is that in order to do that, I need a dedicated engineer, a dedicated plumber, utilities, you know, perhaps we also need some help from, you know, part of the rest, we need some help from those other departments, but then that's why city managers should sit down with the department and say, okay, what are the resources that we have? This is important, but it's not the everyday business that has to be done every day. We have to keep doing that business as well. And so what resources do you have available to extend that? Because I wonder whether all the projects come once. Well, if all these come at once, you're going to need a lot. But I don't think that's realistic, either from the market standpoint or from just a resource standpoint. And I think that's when council would have to make a tough decision and say, okay, lots more dialogue, obviously. What does make sense for the city? Okay, we need our infrastructure to follow this path as opposed to bypassing and going someplace else. Or can we bypass it and do something else? Do we have a partner that's willing to write that check? Those are the things that all factor into this. But I'm trying to get as nailed down to your question as possible that once I have something to work with, then we can say, this is exactly where the next steps we need to do. These are the resources we need to put to it. That's when we have a conversation with our partner over there and say, look, I don't have HAB-Masyn Moyer- A dedicated engineer to do all this. HAB-Masyn Moyer- They don't have a dedicated planner to do this now, if you want one of those you can enter in the funding agreement, we can go out and get help that you and that's your customers plan. HAB-Masyn Moyer- they're not working on anything but your question. HAB-Masyn Moyer- Okay, oh.

HAB-Terry Palmos- yeah it's not something about the city.

HAB-Terry Palmos- No, no. HAB-Terry Palmos- I don't know the history but. Right now, there hasn't been a request for it because we're not doing anything to that magnitude. But a lot of the cities that have, well, all the cities may have not started out that way, but when they got requests for significant development, like you're dealing with here, they asked for them to open the door for you because that's the only way to do it.

Can I ask, on the merit hearing, I remember Doug Keene, the last council, made a point of saying that some of these projects should come to the council before planning commission. I think you and I talked about this as maybe that concept with the merit hearing process. Do we have to change our ordinance? Are we allowed right now to do merit hearings without making any changes to how the process is handled?

No, that's why it's in the code, the phase four of the code amendment was just to add that process in there to give you this, you know, First view of a policy decision. That's why it doesn't go to planning commission because it's a policy decision. Do we want to expand our boundaries? That's not a planning commission decision. You do. So let's follow that through real quickly. Again, pick a project. Someone comes in and says, I want to do this. We package it up. Everything. Mary, here, and it comes to you guys. You say, yep, as long as You listen to the neighbors. You do outreach. You do all that stuff. And there's no guarantees. Once you go through the process, there's no guarantees. So now you send them away. They have their contract planner, their engineer, whatever. They're working on all those things. Part of the process is outreach with all the neighbors and all that stuff. So we get through the somewhat traditional process that everyone's used to, and it's ready for approval. It goes to the planning commission.

HAB-Juliette Boone, But the benefit for this is is the property and your slash developer developer, the Council and the community to tell the process for this is a proposal for this area. And so you're going to hear immediately if there's a whole series. HAB-Juliette Boone, If the concerns are addressed by the developer property owner, then then it, you know, it gets solved up front versus waiting until you go to planning commission and then to council.

Right, right. No, if I sent out a notice that, you know, hey, I have a merit hearing for this, I'm going to get, hopefully, a lot of people saying, hey, what are you doing? Nothing yet. We're exploring the possibility of doing something out here. Do you want to get involved? Then they're at the front end, as you said. And then they're with us tracking it all the way through the process to the planning commission to the city council for finalists. HAB-Jacques Juilland.

decision. HAB-Jacques Juilland.

Most of them. HAB-Jacques Juilland. And also sugar here is it's going to go by. HAB-Jacques Juilland. individual property owners, which makes sense, you don't have the need, so you can't say we need to increase that decrease contract out. HAB-Jacques Juilland- yeah I prefer to react to us because I don't want to step up for something that doesn't happen, because then i'm exacerbating my problem. HAB-Jacques Juilland- So, so how do we go about. HAB-Jacques Juilland- In an organized fashion in a thorough way right through all of our property owners that are on this list i'm figuring out where they are, because, because I think the issue with the city has been we're expecting people to come to us all the time. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Well.

So I've talked to a few of these folks out here and I've encouraged them that I'm going to do this. And if they like it, hate it, talk to you about it. And my hope is, is that there's some support for it because when, now I'm not suggesting that we go out to the, there's probably close to 700 property owners on all these lists and give them personal invitations to this because some of these property owners are going to say, who, what? I don't care. And so I believe the word of mouth will travel for those that are interested in it. And generally speaking, my experience is that, again, I'll just pick this one or this one. There's 90 property owners here. But if there's a development interest, you have property owners, you have developers. Property owners don't always want to be involved in the development. They want to sell it, get their return, and then give it to the developer to build. So developers, part of their job function was to go out and talk to as many property owners out there and say, hey, I'm interested in doing this, and you're interested in getting on board or selling, right? And so we need to talk to all those people, but I think initially, What I would advocate is just go out there with this concept and say, is there an interest for this? What is the temperature for interest in any of these areas? And then start having more direct conversations. For example, you know, as I mentioned, I talked to a few of them. They say, you know what? Council likes it. We like it. We want to talk some more about it. I'm going to bring the right people from staff to the table and say, okay, what do you want to do this? What does it look like? And we keep having those conversations.

And then finally, it turns into something up there. There's some there there. I can package this in American and bring it to counseling and say, here it is.

Now, that doesn't mean that I don't stop talking to other people. You know, the phone can be very busy. Well, I want to do that too. Okay. You know, it may be that we bring three marriage rings to you guys. Back to back to back or all at once. That I don't have any control over. But I do think putting the word out to as many people as we can, as you said, the agencies, the building industry, the realtor industry, they can get the word out to the property owners as well. And so we hold workshops. You know, we just start talking about this stuff, seeing what the level of interest is. And then as we get pulled aside after those general meetings, I really want to talk to you about my piece. Okay, well, what is that level? HAB-Jacques Juilland- And then we get deeper deeper down. HAB-Jacques Juilland- So two thoughts.

First of all, we're here from the community. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Approach second is, you know, we have a new city manager coming to beats me development director up to the center. And so I guess I'm just curious as to what this handoff looks like, because if you were with us throughout the rest of the year, obviously, it's been a very different situation. It's a very complex process, which is just so much more of a transition. So given that, how does, you know, how is this going to be handed off to you?

It's a good question. I'm certainly going to share with as many people as I can. And as I mentioned, you know, the staff that's here now is informed about it. But I will certainly do my best to educate the incumbent city manager. But if need be, you know, there might be an opportunity to .

So we'll go to public comments. And before we gentleman back there in the But before we do like this, then, for me, like, I've been interested in this for the last few months, I've been talking to WD like recently, like two weeks ago, and they are very happy with now collaboration and already had set them up for to get a new city manager to talk about all these developments. So we are already on there with labs, which I have had meetings with lab also property owners, developers, so Already have spread the word. They've been already doing all that. So with that, we're going to go to public comments.

We don't have public comments today, but you're welcome to open it up to members of the public.

Oh, should we do it? Should we let them go over here?

I have a timer so you can call them as they express interest in providing public comments. And once my five minute timer goes off, then I will, I'll just note it to them by the public to tell Olivia likes to say some companies.

Yes, so we can see. Sure sure okay.

Yeah, I mean, please turn around. Well, I don't know what you want me to do.

This is better than I thought it was going to be. So let me start there. Thank you. I think there is some history gaps. I wish you invited some of us in to clear those up because you haven't all been here that long. Talk about the development of regional facilities. That's an upgrade to, that's a change to the impact fee program. You did talk about that later, but I didn't want there to be, there's an inference that something, everything that's supposed to be being collected for is being collected for. If you want to add something to the program, there's no process for that. Yeah, that CFD slide, I didn't think that was, We don't have a lot of CFD areas because we haven't grown very much since the implementation of that as kind of a standard. I don't know the connection between what we're currently collecting on the CFDs to a budget request from the police. I think it was the police department. Those two have no relations. The... The cost of those small areas that have been put in the CFDs meant to offset their costs. So I thought that was misleading. If we had more homes that we developed, you'd have more monies. But again, a newer area doesn't have a demand on the police department the way an older community is or more commercial areas. We had had a merit, it wasn't called merit. And I'd be curious as to when that kicks in. Certainly before you do a master plan, a bigger area, right? Because there's no guidance at all. By the way, we do do master plans. The last, we haven't do, again, we haven't known as very few people, a couple of people are in here that have been, had seen annexations just as a member of the public. But the last three projects is my, I don't know. Did you do a master plan on Southwest Gateway? How about the one behind, I forget the other one's called. Mark Benthien, ECA- behind railings. Mark Benthien, ECA- So the past three projects that comprise the last 20 years of development have all been masterplanned. Mark Benthien, ECA- So the idea that we haven't done that is inaccurate. Mark Benthien, ECA- So I just want to clear that up. The other thing I wanted to ask though is, in terms of merit too, before you do a masterplan of that size, we would go to the council to approve a development, approve of the EIR, because that's a big, a lot of money and it is all cost recovery. And so what would go to the council is, do you want to hire these consultants to do this environmental impact report, which the developer was going to pay for a lot of money. And that was in theory at the time, what you might call, it may be different moving forward, but that was demerit. No one was doing all that without some kind of temperature check. Uh, you want to do a little differently now that looks fine. Um, My question is that when would you do the merit? Is it only once you do the master plan and now five years later, a parcel owner and that owns five acres, it's already a part of the master plan. Would that need to be merit also? That was a question I have. I wouldn't think you'd need to, but I'm curious what you have to say. The only concern that I have is, and this is very detailed, your data guide is helpful. But there's not a lot of meat on the bone down here. We're not Roseville or Rockland or, you know, wherever you want to pick. And the balance between adding cost to development and what that may do to develop a timeline because it inflates the cost. I know you can be creative, it sounds like, but it's just we're not other place. I wish we weren't sometimes, but a lot of times I don't. Okay, but it's just, there's not a lot of, we had 60, if there were newspapers to be believed, we had 66 home firms pulled in 2025. So what does that tell us as a community? I mean, the interest rate's that high, people don't want to move here, it's too expensive. We want to add to that expense, so there's a balance. And I say that in light of our, I'm just not done. Okay, in light of your meeting last week, which I'm assuming you're enjoying this one, better than Wednesday. But we are essentially having enormous, why it's come as a surprise is always mystifying me. We have enormous financial challenges moving forward in spite of not developing hardly at all. What I would have liked you to do, or I'd like you to do in the future, or even tonight, is explain why you better not have zero industrial growth and the cost of that. Not just the cost of industrial growth when it occurs to the city. What is the cost when it doesn't come at all for 30 years? What is the cost to other segments when it doesn't come at very much of a rate or at all? Because we have these massive financial problems, cuts to public safety without any of these things. And I just want to make sure the spirit of this is not to make those things further down the road, because I think we sort of need it. Thank you for that.

So before we go to that, yeah, can you, because he raised a few questions, can you answer maybe a few of them, not all of them, but. No, I can answer another.

With regards to the CFD process, I was certainly not trying to be disingenuous. If you look at the language that formed the CFD, it goes into a pot, general fund pot, for those services. New, old, doesn't matter. our police department, our fire department, our public works department, our parks department serves the entire community. That money goes into their general fund budget that goes into serving the community. All I'm simply saying is that based on the way the language was approved is that that money is there. Am I expecting that to solve the existing problem? No, I'm saying quite the opposite, that there is a challenge with meeting this need. I think I'd address that in a variety of different ways. I can't fix that. with normal paths. And you're right. We do have a budget issue to try to help fix this. What I'm suggesting is going forward, because data shows that we do need to grow or we need to give ourselves opportunity to grow if we want to grow. Now, even though I've been in development my entire career, I'm not simply suggesting that develop to develop. In fact, I've warned you the opposite. If you're not doing it right, if you're not using these tools, if you're not looking at these things properly, don't do it. Because all you're doing is just making more of these 10 years from now. So I'm quite the opposite. You talk about not having industrial. I talk to that. You can build industries. You can build economies. I heard part of the conversations last year in June that You know, oh, you're showing us those lovely little pictures, you know, beautiful parks and beautiful pathways and all that stuff. We can't afford that. Well, maybe you can. I'm not suggesting that you're going to become a Roosevelt or a Galt or a Rockland or whatever overnight. You're not. It's going to take time. But what I'm suggesting to you all is that if you want to put your nose out and go out for it, do it smartly. Don't create more problems for yourself that future council members, future generations are going, what the heck did we do? We had a chance and we didn't do it. And I absolutely believe that looking at all of this, you need this at some point in time. Now, do I think that I have the capability and, you know, Luis is darn good. But market needs to drive that. We need to show that there's a demand for this. And because we have infill sites that are still hanging out there on the periphery here and there, there's not a demand for that out there. That's how that works. And so when we show, past example, before I got 100 acres pre-master plan approved for some of the largest bio to be developed in the next 10 years, we got all the vacant sites filled up. And then they said, OK, I want to come in. Well, you know what? We need to do a specific plan over here because we don't have any more land. Oh, well, where do I get mine? You're building it. And that takes time. That takes that partnership. Let's see.

Master plans.

Again, master plan, specific plan, precise plan. whatever plan. My description of a master plan is probably different, but to me, large areas such as these require a bigger planning document. When you talk about the master plan examples, I didn't mean any disrespect to those at all. There's coordination of infrastructure and improvements and so forth, but for a single site development, potentially. HAB-Jacques Juilland- i'm not familiar with all of them in detail, so I apologize if I don't get it right, but what i'm talking about here is. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Multiple properties multiple interest multiple phases multiple infrastructure components so to me that's where those things work better with that type of regulatory document there gives you that certainty. HAB-Jacques Juilland- That development really that specific plan says okay. I'm going to pass this on to my grandchildren because that's how long it's going to take to develop. But I know that I have an agreement with the city that says I can build that there. That's worth something if I'm not mistaken to the development community. Okay. Merit hearing. Real quick. Merit hearing is the process where the idea of a specific plan is being fostered and created by that side of the table. They come to this side of the table. I want to do this. Okay, how are we going to do it? Now, before I come to the council with anything about, well, I need half a million for this, I need staff, I need this, I need that. I'm going to package this up and say, I have this proposal. They're willing to address these 10 things to go forward. Council, you need to tell me, do you want to do that? Then if you tell me to do that, then I'm going to go back and I'm going to start working with the developer and the property owner. What's my cost sharing agreement? What's my resource agreement? What's my this? What's my process? Well, we need an EIR. We'll need a general plan update. I need a traffic analysis. I need a fiscal analysis. That means this, this, that, that. That means those costs. You're picking up the tab for this, that, that. I'm covering that. We take that back to council, say here's our full reimbursement agreement. HAB-Jacques Juilland- view for the developer approves of this, we approve of it, this is what we need to make this project go forward, we think will be back in front of Council in two years 18 months, whatever do we have a deal, yes, then I go. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Then I don't come back for married here and ever again. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Then I got my approved project right I got my proof specific plan through development agreement that specific plan says. This phase is going to develop first. That infrastructure is going to go in. It's going to be this type of development, that type of development. And guess what? If I get it right, get it up front, I don't even have to go back to the planning commission. I go through the planning department and I'm done. Or maybe you do go to the planning commission because it's a larger size project. But you can put maps in there. You can do all kinds of stuff depending on how much homework you can go to front. My goal is not to keep bringing this back. I believe in doing the homework up front. So to me, if you're popping out here, explore the whole thing. Because kind of like the infrastructure analysis, I can't build half a substation. I got to build a full substation for one unit or 1,000 units. So if I'm having to go to LAFCO, WID, BFD, and CFD for 10 acres, I might as well go for the full 100 acres. because it's the same people that I have to talk to. So I hope that answers your question, sir. Next comment.

Hi, my name is .

I just noticed on slide 23, tools needed. There was no mention of the MSR, and I haven't heard MSR at all tonight. HAB-Jacques Juilland, I have two questions MSR excuse me, does the MSR have a role in the process presented and, secondly, is it your position in is it the city's position that the. HAB-Jacques Juilland, is accurate insufficient for proceeding to a general plan update.

HAB-Jacques Juilland, So thank you for pointing it out. HAB-Jacques Juilland, It is a it is right up here. And it was on a couple of my slides. And so is it within the MSR, yes or no? That's part of the discussion. And as I mentioned at the beginning, I was not intending to use this as the accuracy and adequacy of any of these documents, the EIR, the MSR, because in my opinion, while they're there, Again, if I go to any project, annexation project, part of the analysis is going to be, okay, what do I have? What do I need? Now it says the MSR. Okay. How accurate is the MSR? Do I need to do more homework? Just like I'm telling, suggesting you need to update your general plan because it's already out of whack. Well, I'm going to do the same thing with the EIR. I'm going to do the same thing with the MSR. I'm going to do the same thing with, you know, any other agreements that we have. It's a fresh slate because my belief is that we as staff, once we get to go ahead, need to make sure that we've done every piece of homework that we need to do. So when we come, you know, spend your money and your time to come up with a valuable product to benefit the overall community, this council has to make that decision and they need all those answers. And I need to be able to provide it to them. And so I'm going to ask that question. How adequate is that? Double-check it, triple-check it. Show me where it meets it, where it doesn't meet it. And then if we need to update it, we update it. Does that answer your question, sir?

No. Is it your feeling that the present 2022 MNI is sufficient to proceed with the general plan update when it relates to the city's official position on the adequacy of the 2022

So I wish in the time that I had while I was here that I had the luxury of being in a UCEDD document, but I have not. So I can just honestly tell you that I don't know that answer. And that's not to be coy or dismissive in any way, shape, or form. I just have not had the, honestly, the need or the time to evaluate that. Again, the way I'm going to advocate to this team HAB-Jacques Juilland- To pick this up is is that wherever you go, you need to check all these boxes, and please just don't shut the box, because you think it's down verify check verify, because this council is requiring you know need that information to make sure that doesn't mean okay so it's a definite maybe.

HAB-Jacques Juilland- Thank you next time. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Well.

I would just like to say that I do think this is the first time that we, and I can't speak for staff, but in my almost four years as a counselor, the first time I've seen her go to the bathroom, that's pretty clear about the direction that we need to go. Not just the concept of S and Y, but development in particular. And I think that's very promising. You know, a lot of us are going to focus on the, you know, one component about the things we need to do, the development review process, because, you know, it isn't just about the SOI areas, it's about the already established areas within the city that have been challenged, the property owners, the developers with that particular process. So I think your point is well made. It's one of many other tools that we need to look at to update. And I think it's going to take some certain effort And I know, ma'am, I will continue to have discussions with you about it because there's a certain skill set.

No, this can't be brought up until after next week Thursday.

Yeah.

That's fine. That's fine.

The point is today. All right. So.

I think it's not Robert's rule of orders. It's someone's rule of order that you can't talk about this for another week.

Okay.

Especially next week's council meeting. Okay.

HAB-Juliette Boone, No, we have other important things. HAB-Juliette Boone, So, but I think, as I said earlier, it gives us a roadmap for that. HAB-Juliette Boone, For future development, the city, because, as well as everybody, we do need to grow, we need to go for our time we say we need to go for the sake of housing, we need to grow from workforce, we need to grow and it's just that as. HAB-Juliette Boone, stated. HAB-Juliette Boone, That we have to approach how. we decide as a community, not as city government, but as a community of stakeholders, both people who live here now and the people that we're building houses or creating future sites for business development for. So it's the people who want to bring me here and the people that already live here and the enhanced opportunities they have for homes, for business, and for jobs. And so managed growth, expansion of time to those other three are pretty critical. And I'm going to say something. I heard a business counselor at lunch today, and this was really all talking about the Med Center. We are the new medical school going in at UOP. The concept of cities, when cities were developed, there were three concepts tied to cities. One was people came to cities for safety. We all gathered together in a city where we're safe. The second thing was economic opportunities. We came to a city for economic opportunities. The third thing was a better quality of life. And those are the three things that I think we need to focus on. And I think that all of those points that you made today and are included in there is exactly what a city is for, for its residents and for its businesses. And apparently that was Aristotle who defined what was for a good city. So I would say that's what we're trying to get to right now. And I appreciate the fact that

I appreciate your comments in terms of that's what the city is there for. That's why I got into public service. But, you know, looking at this again, of all those milestone themes, all one really helps do more than itself. You know, economic development helps some of those things as well. But in terms of the ability to check Darn near all those boxes except for downtown revitalization. But I will tell you this. If you start building an efficient process, if you start building a reputation for handling this kind of stuff, if you start building a machine that can handle these kinds of things, if you start building momentum that says, wow, they're doing something there, guess what? His door is going to be knocked off its hinges because so many people are going to be very interested in building there. As we're building a better process machine for this kind of development, you build another process machine for, you know, this catalyst project over here that I showed you. Prior to the restriction I worked in, I think I mentioned this to you before, we created a 90-day processing timeline. Large corporation comes to California, not just to our little town, but from across the country. You know, we want to go somewhere near the Bay Area, but the Bay Area is telling us it's going to take 40 years. We'll get you to approval in 90 days. Sold. And, you know, they master plan 100 acres in town. And so this subject definitely touches, you know, housing affordability, public safety, as I said, you know. You can't grow without looking at public safety needs and improvements. So all of these are touched by this subject. So that's why it's so important. And you kind of hit on it with those three services. And that's what I see those near your other milestone things are. Safety, quality of life, those things. So that's why it's... This is why I'm excited about this stuff. This is why I'm happy for you guys that while you have the challenges, you have some real opportunity to do it if you look at it the right way or a healthier way. Any more comments from the panel, sir?

No, no. I think we can already give the closing. Oh, that's not my job. I'll give you a little. But anyways, thank you, everybody, for participating. And like we got to say, the city is water. But we're collaborating here. We are here to talk to you guys so we can build a better community, all of us, not just the company, not just the staff, but you guys, developers, property owners, anybody. So without closing the meeting, I will adjourn the meeting. Thank you.