Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Three, two, one. Come on, Margo. We're counting down.

We are here for Thursday, June 4th, 2026 Planning Board meeting, which will start out with an informal discussion on Fortune Great Road, employee development, and Hebrew senior life. Can we stand and do the pledge of allegiance? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, thank you so is an informal discussion about the proposed deeply affordable senior living proposal at 14 Gray Road and Morgan Pearson is here from LaPolle and we have by zoom someone from Hebrew Senior Lab okay you want to start sure good evening Mr.

Chair members of the board thank you for having us as the chair said Morgan Pearson with LaPolle Company is the proponent of Appreciate the time this evening. With us virtually is Kim Brooks, who's the Executive Vice President of Hebrew Senior Life. And really, I think as you said, Mr. Chair, the idea is somewhat informal tonight to provide the board with a little bit of an update. on what we are working to put before this body in this month, hopefully, from an updated site plan approval process. And so I just wanted to give a little context and then hand the microphone virtually over to Kim, who can give a little background on Hebrew Senior Life, which is an incredible organization we've come to know over the last, so and and just learn about their organization and how they might be able to fit into this community so looking at a familiar plan to the board I believe we wanted to focus on a couple of areas 410 Great Road on the left side here as well as this kind of vertical strip as part of 550 King Street These are all importantly intertwined in the sense and the context of progressing the project as a whole. And there's more history here in terms of organization looking to propose different layouts different plans and getting feedback that we should reconsider which we have and so I guess I'll just talk through a couple of these pieces with that's okay and again we'll put it back to 410 but so we'll start with 410 rather this is the current very high level proposed location for Really 70 to 90, hopefully 80 to 90 deeply affordable and affordable senior housing units. We'll give more information as our application progresses, but I think it's just worth noting for the board and the public the importance of that density or that number. And I can let Kim speak to it high level. However, what I will just say is what we've learned, of course, is that These buildings provide an incredible service and operation and space for seniors and that operation requires a certain amount of efficiency and cost and density helps that from an economic standpoint or economies of scale rather. Our team with PCA, the architect, the master plan architect that you're familiar with, we worked, again, with very high level parameters to see what we could fit on part of the site. You'll see very much here this TBD. It's in green. That is just a placeholder. Our intent is to further plan that. But the real, one of the important sentiments we wanted to convey tonight is just keeping the momentum and focusing on this element, which the board and the community has made clear to us is something they wish for us to progress at a faster rate. So there's not much to look at here other than it certainly fits on the site. And it works for what we're looking to do. I think this is not what the ultimate layout will be. It'll be some version of this as we dig deeper into the site plan analysis. But I wanted to give the board this preview. Moving back to 550 King Street, here's King Street at the bottom of the page. Some of the feedback we've also heard along the way is the desire to keep the Tuttle House on site. And there's been some compelling suggestions to us from those understanding that it cannot stay at the location where the future King Street Green will be, where my kind of cursor is right here. But it fits very nicely over next to the edge of our property, which was somewhat newly acquired, and across from the common. So this sort of keeps in the spirit of some of the buildings around there, and I think what we've heard from the town that this would be an important location for this historic house. For the boards just information we are scheduled to go before the historic Commission on the 10th of June To get some additional feedback from from them on this idea as well But again wanted to share or preview this with the board this evening We have some additional retail here. That's very important based on interest from tenant groups. This is what we're calling building 800 right here and then Again, zooming in on this, proposing a neighborhood market in this general vicinity. All of the white boxes you see here are TBD. There's not necessarily changes underneath them, but we're still working through them. And I think what I would just say is a lot of what we're able to clarify through this process will inform what happens on those white boxes. So in the interest of not distracting, we've just kind of boxed them out for now. And of course, just like tonight, as soon as we advance some of those designs and those proposals, we'll be before the board for your input. That's high level. It's a lot. But really, I think, again, over the next month, our intent is to focus on these two or three, rather, four buildings in presenting to the board with, of course, a very high importance on 410 Great Road and progressing and pushing forward this senior housing element, which we're really excited about. So focusing back on that, I'd love to hand it over to Kim in a sec, but It's, you know, we as an organization spend a good amount of time speaking to people across the state and up to, you know, the highest levels of the government and have found an incredible amount of support and compliments for Kim's organization. We've subsequently been able to tour and bring Bartlett as well as Marianne, who's in the audience tonight, to be able to tour some of their facilities. And I think it was a really positive experience for us all, but I will let them certainly speak to it if they wish. but we're we're thrilled with the idea of being able being able to bring the senior housing component to Littleton sort of sooner than we maybe anticipated and also maybe in a larger way but much more impactful so that's sort of high level I can certainly answer questions but perhaps maybe it makes sense to also have Kim chime in but I defer to you mr. chair we'd like to hear from Kim I'm gonna stop you've heard enough of me

Oh, we need audio.

Oh, Kim, sorry, we don't hear you yet.

Oh, here we go. All right. Yep. Hi, thank you so much. Kim Brooks, can you hear me? Am I echoing? Is it just on my own? Can you hear me okay?

Yep. Yep.

Littleton, really getting to know the companies. Also, your mom, we get to tour you. So Morgan and I thought it'd be a good idea just to give you a little bit of an overview of Hebrew Senior Life, and then I can certainly answer any questions that you have. We are a 120-year-old organization. We are Boston-based. nonprofit and we serve about 5,000 older adults every day our mission is to enhance the experience of aging so all can live fully so everything we do we're in a lot of different businesses and we provide a lot of different services but everything we do is focused on older adults so we do that through research teaching and then again through direct service across the campuses that I mentioned. So those seven campuses, we serve people of all faiths, all income levels, and across the continuum. We have six of our seven locations are senior living with independent living, and that includes affordable supportive housing, So for us that is a range of deeply affordable up to moderate affordability, all with a lot of really intense services to support people to live in that independent setting for as long as possible. And then we also have assisted living, both traditional and memory support assisted living. And then our facility-based care on two of our campuses includes long-term care and short-term rehab. We also provide a number of services in the home. We have a home health company, we also have a hospice, and then we do a number of rehab services in the home as well. In addition to those direct services, And we also have some specialty programs and a couple of them. I just want to highlight I thought you might be interested to hear about One of those is our Center for the prevention of elder abuse Which unfortunately is is such a challenging issue and there are very few Resources for people who are suffering from that so we have one of the only shelters in where we provide supportive services to people, but we're also able to provide emergency shelter for those who need help that have suffered from some kind of abuse. And then we also have a woke center for memory health, which is focused on people suffering from cognitive decline, supporting them, supporting their families, providing a whole range of services to people living out in their home that could benefit from that. And then the other service that I just wanted to highlight, we call our R3 program, which is Right Care, Right Place, Right Time. and it's relevant to what we're talking about in Littleton. It is our program of integrated care and housing, where we basically bring a package of care and wellness services into affordable housing, a small team of a wellness nurse, a wellness coordinator. They get to know the residents, they do an assessment, they do proactive reach out to people, and then they identify any areas of risk and then help support those individuals, again, to stay in that community for as long as possible. So, you know, we have many people living with us, 90s, 100s, and they are able to stay in that independent setting and, you know, they're not back and forth to the hospital because they have the supports that they need. So in addition to the direct service, I mentioned research and teaching. We are an aging, we have a Marcus Institute for Aging Research focused on all things frailty, falls, falls prevention, brain health. We have about a $90 million portfolio through that institute, mostly of National Institute of Health funding. And then in addition to that, we have a care force Institute, Wonder Care Horse Institute, which is focused on training caregivers. So we train nursing assistants and then hopefully in the future we will also train licensed practical nurses. And then I thought I'd just briefly highlight our areas of growth, where we've been growing in the last few years and where we're focused on growing in the coming years, which has been all around our affordable housing. So over the past five years, we have opened four new communities and have a couple more in the pipeline. And we continue to want to provide, whether it's developing new from the ground up and then bringing all the supportive services, or partnering with others to figure out how we can continue to add to that footprint as there is such a need. Our wait lists are very long, and as you probably know, there is just such a need for affordable housing, especially that with supports. So we have a very small development team, but we've had great success working closely with the towns that we do business in, as well as the state as we go through the state funding process on each of these projects as well. So we're really excited about this particular opportunity. One, because there's an engaged town that's excited about development there. Two, a developer of the La Pola companies who has great experience and is also you know, excited to partner and, you know, they have site control, which is such an important part of us getting going on a project. And then having this piece of land that is, you know, gonna be so close to so much else going on and other things that we can leverage in the town. As Morgan said, it is always really beneficial when we can have that, the more volume we can have of older adults living in one building. It just provides for economies of scale that allows us to bring more services and supports, and then people can access all of the amenities that are close by. Hopefully that just gives you a little bit of a sense of who we are. And again, I'm certainly happy to answer any questions or talk in more detail about anything if you would like. Thank you.

So I just, if I could add, I think, you know, the hope was certainly open to the board for questions or then however you like to kind of learn more about Hebrews in your life and what we're thinking. In hearing Kim, I mean, I'm so happy her voice and her perspective is so much better than hearing from us all the time, but I think One of the things we're excited about is, as we've become more educated on what we're trying to do, specifically with the senior housing pieces, the synergies with what we're looking to build and what this board recently approved in the retail, which is, Kim and I have talked about, can we get one of the chefs from one of the restaurants we put in to come do a class over at the senior building that she and her team are creating? That's something that some of their other properties have done. you know, when family comes to visit their loved ones, you know, they have a place to bring them across the street for whatever, it's ice cream or coffee. And so there's all these other pieces. And then, of course, I've talked with some of the board members and other community members about how close it is to the senior center here and creating a van or some kind of shuttle system. And so there's a lot of, I think we think anyway, positive, I'll just say it again, synergies with this site and with Hebrew Senior Life. And And again, we're just really happy we were able to get this far. And as Kim said, the importance of what we've all heard, which we think is a lot of support from the community to have something like this in Littleton. So I'll stop talking, but I'll leave it to the board for any other questions.

Kim, one of the points that's been made is that getting these facilities off the ground and funded is complex and time consuming. Can you outline for us what that means?

Yes. I mean, it is time consuming. You know, the initial stages of design site control and some of the things again like I feel like there's a little bit of a head start here with site control which is which is huge and normally we'd be starting from scratch just introducing the concept of the town you all are much further along on that so so that's exciting first steps but from there the on the financing side you know it is a bit of a trajectory because to go out and get state funding, which would be through the tax credit system. That's really the only capital that is available to put one of these deals together. And to be able to go for state funding, you have to have financial support from the town. So we work with you and go through your process and your affordable housing trust process. The state would be looking for that signal from the town. So at least most towns that we've dealt with have their own whole infrastructure and timeframes and schedules that you were working with first. And then we lead up to the application process with the state, which happens For the most part, once a year. There are times when the state is able to do additional rounds of funding, but usually they do one round a year. And so then you go in through an application process. And once you're in the application round, it takes about eight or nine months before you find out whether your project was awarded or not. And then it takes another handful of months, eight or nine months, As soon as you get to that financial closing, you're breaking ground. And depending on the size, most of our new developments that are, you know, about this size have been 12 to 18 months of construction. And then, you know, we're able to open from there. And then the fill is very quick.

When is the next round of applications due for the state?

Well, I think the next traditional round, this fall is probably too fast where this project is. And so the standard round for the state funding is usually a pre-application process in September, October. So that would be a year from September.

Okay, so... Well, we work on pre-application for the fall, and then... What happens between that and when the application goes in or is acted upon?

You mean what happens before an application goes in?

So you said that the pre-application is accomplished in the fall, and then the next fall is the application?

No, so let's say we went for a pre-application in the fall of It would be fall of 27, so it would be a year from September. If the project is in really good shape, then we would hopefully be invited to what they call the full round, and we would do a full application to the state, which usually happens in January, so a few months after that pre-application. And then the state makes its awards usually in the summer, so you find out about eight months after.

And then if you're awarded then it's you know from there you're moving on to the financing piece and then what constitutes a pre-application what the materials for the pre-application And what I'm trying to get at is what do we need to be working on?

So that's I mean that would be our homework the work that we would do is directly with the town would be you know following the process that that you need to get through affordable you know housing trust and whatever your town meeting processes and you know hopefully getting the approvals to to get funded through the town to get some level of commitment and funding from the town, that would be our work with you because we can't go to the state until we get that done. And then our homework is the pre-application that goes to the state. And again, we've got a good track record of that. We've done that many times now. We've been successful. We've continued to get funded. I mean, it's a competitive process. There are a lot of projects that go in for funding. And it's not all senior projects. It's also multifamily projects. So it is a very competitive process. But it's why we've worked so hard and so closely with the town, with Wupoli, with the architects, and make sure that our application is is as perfect as perfect can be so that when it goes in, we're hopefully invited then to the full round.

So if I interpret what does it mean to us, we need to do something to make sure that we can demonstrate the financial commitment from our various housing pieces there. We probably need to demonstrate commitment from the board here about approval, that we're willing to give approval to this site type of thing. I'm looking for the kind of actions that we need to take concrete things on to make sure that we don't delay the ability for you to move forward on an application.

Thank you, yes. I mean, that's exactly it. We would never put an application to the state without site control you know the approvals from the town and then the funding from the town and so those those are the those are the pieces and we can certainly coordinate with you on the you know getting into more of the details and the very specifics and and kind of lay out a timeline if everybody's like if we feel like there's there's support for that then we would we can put that together

Mark. All I can say is it's been 25 years in the making and it's finally, we promised senior housing to the seniors for 25 years and it looks like we're on the cusp of finally having a viable means to give a substantial, 80 to 90 units is a great It's a great start with that. And I commend the Lapolis for proposing this to us. And I think we should do everything we can to push this along as quickly as we can. Because, you know, as she said, it's whoever gets there first. Because there's only X amount of money. So we want to be in the front of that queue when we get a chance to. So we should, you know, probably bring everybody in to... figure out what components have to be put together, how Marla has to, it's going to fall on you, you know that, right? So, but I just, I think this is fantastic. This is something that, you know, we've been trying to do for so long and now it's, we can actually see that there's a way to do it. Margo.

Yes, everything that you just said. I have questions, I guess, for both Morgan and for you, Kim. because I feel like these are some of the questions that we will get asked as well. So you said 80 to 90 deeply affordable units. I guess my questions for you both kind of relate. As you're looking at what will be in this building, how do you determine, or what do those 80 to 90 units look like? Are they one bedroom, two bedroom? Are they single bed, dual bed? How do you determine that? And then, I guess, outside of the context of those rooms, you mentioned, Kim, that some of your locations, I love how you describe the continuum of care with senior living, with independent living, assisted memory support, short-term rehab, long-term, having in-home services coming out of these facilities as well. How do you determine what services Littleton would need? And is that based on the size of the facility or looking at like the composition of the community? What goes into determining that?

Okay, so let me try to get all those. So I think for units, we typically, all of our units would be one bedroom units. They are, you know, again, this is not multifamily, right? So this is older adults. Most of them are living alone. We have some couples, but there would be one bedroom units and they tend to be you know they're very specific guidelines when you're going through the affordable housing state funded process so the unit size is usually about 630 square feet we we all of our communities that we build we work really hard to make sure that there is ample community space within them that's just so important to socialization and you know being able to bring services in for people so we will often have um you know while we wouldn't have a full dining venue there especially with everything that will be available right across the street We'll make sure that we have a, you know, we would try to build a store so people can access, you know, have easy access to anything they might need. We would have a fitness area. We would have a resident services space where they can meet with people. We often have a large community room where people are gathering and then, you know, card rooms, places where people can do the things that are important to them. And then As it relates to the level of service or level of, you know, what kind of services we bring in, this would be all independent. So we wouldn't have assisted living on site. We wouldn't have long-term care on site. It would be independent living. Again, it would be very service-enriched, though, and we would... look to partner and I don't know all the organizations in your area, but we would certainly get to know the area and understand who the providers are there and figure out what partnerships make sense so that we can make sure that as people may need additional levels of care or other supports that we have strong partnerships in place so that we can make sure that people have what they need. Did I get all your questions?

I think so. Yeah. So just to be clear, you said Most of the units are for, it would be for elderly people living on their own at this point, not for, or what percentage, I guess, would be for elderly couples?

I mean, any, it could be any. So that all the units would be about the same size and they would all be one bedroom units. But if a couple applies, you know, usually we have, again, more singles than we do couples, but it could be that couples do move in. But we wouldn't specify how many units are for couples and how many are for singles.

Pardon? You've actually had a tour.

Yeah, I've had a tour, and it does seem to be an impressive operation from what I can tell from walking around for an hour and listening to some of the caregivers there. It seemed a lot like... the market rate place that my parents lived in for a long time. So I'm happy with that. I'm pleased to go ahead with this. I guess my question at this point is what is the If we have, say, 80 units, how many of them are deeply affordable and how many are there others that are market rate or at different levels of affordability? Is that something that has been discussed at your end?

Yeah. Kim, you can speak to it, but we haven't advanced that far. I mean, I know our special permit, of course, speaks to a certain level of deeply affordable, so we would obviously adhere to that, but right now we're in the, you know, does this make sense for the board and the community, and then we start digging into a lot of those pieces of it, for sure.

Right. And then the store that Kim talked about, would that be similar to the store that we saw in the Brookline buildings, where it's just you know, loaf of bread and a quart of milk and I don't know, I mean, really basic sort of a very small store. It's not a supermarket.

Correct. It's a very small, small store just meant for convenience and, you know, grab and go items. And again, I think Littleton would provide some really unique opportunities because of everything that's going to be so close. So, too early to say what we would do there. I think that would be part of the fun of planning and figuring out what makes sense for that location. So I don't know that it would look exactly like the one that you saw. It might be very different just because of what we have there. And then for affordability, again, too early to say exactly our kind of typical community that we would design would have the units would be 60% AMI, and then we would work hard to get as many 30% AMI or deeply subsidized units that we can. But that too is a process that we have to go through as putting together the financing and understanding what's available from the state or any other programs that we might be eligible for. But our homework would be to have as many deeply subsidized units as we can and that the rest would be affordable by the tax credit standard.

I have one more question. What about Littleton residents? How would we address Littleton residents first for something like this? I know it's got to go through the state, but how do you normally handle that? Because obviously we want to make sure that the people that have lived in Littleton for as long as they have and want to stay in Littleton get first shot at units that are there.

So if we would do a market analysis of Littleton and the surrounding area, and if that proved out that there is the great need in Littleton and there's enough there to go on, then absolutely we would apply to the state for a Littleton preference. And that would mean that upon lease up, if the state awards that preference, the Littleton residents would have first shot at those units.

I have just a couple other comments. I didn't get the chance to tour your facility there. I had the need to tour all of the facilities in the Bangor, Brewer, Main area for my mother. And what you described there is what I saw typical of, you know, between 80 to 100 units. They are all one bedroom, some with older couples, and a lot of them are couples that have been you know that one of the spouses is no longer there for it so and I also saw that you know personally experienced trying to find the need in order to be in a queue waiting for a you know a room to open up so appreciate also the need for the local preference pieces here so you know I just want to express my own personal support for the project you know understanding that it is more than we'd originally were talking about but i understand and and the size proposed is exactly the same size i've seen numerous other facilities uh there again for all the same reasons uh cited there so i don't want us to get set back by you know 80 versus the 40 that we were talking about originally uh there because you know i think Even if it's not the local need, the area need is showing that we need that much capacity there. So I'd like to make sure that we do whatever we can to demonstrate to you our commitment to this project. And if there's anything you need, again, we try to make sure we're signaling the right things to you for this.

This question is for William. How is this application effort in putting this together, how is it going to be organized?

So I think our intent is to have 410 as a single application and then likely probably two applications at 550 King Street.

Not for 550, I'm talking specifically about the senior housing. about supporting HSL and who's going to be doing what?

So we're already working together based on some preliminary conversations to advance the site plan submission. But it will come from Lepole just as you've sort of seen in the past with other partnerships. So that's the intent for 410.

Who and what town entities do you need to engage and when do you need to engage them? We have some people sitting here in the audience who might be part of this. What is your, what's your process?

So not knowing your town and how it works yet, I think our homework or my homework is to get caught up and understand how you operate and what all of your various committees are and also, you know, just understand that obviously LaPolle companies have done a lot of that work with you, so we just have to figure out how to insert ourselves in that and also get you what you need. But I think, you know, we have some homework to do. We really, we've got some homework to do on design and really coming up with a site plan that makes sense. And then I think we can lay out for you the things that we know we'll need and maybe that potential timeline, and that would help us figure that out.

Okay. Yeah, there's a couple people in the audience that I want to point out. Mary Ann, who you've met with them, and you're the chair of the Affordable Housing Trust. I'll get back to you but then Carolyn Muller who is the head of the CPC which is where ultimately the money would any money that's available would come from we have Mark Rombacher who's the board of selectmen I would say that we are a small town you know barely 10,000 people and you know, don't be shy about asking where do I, who do I talk to, who needs to be a part of this, etc. Back to you. Yeah.

Can I speak?

Sure.

Hi, folks. Marianne here, Affordable Housing Trust and Whitetail Way. So Bartlett and I had the opportunity to visit the Brookline campus of the HSL Center, and I wanted to share some observations. It's an incredibly impressive operation, I have to say. What struck me is I guess I went expecting to see housing, right, an apartment building, and it's so much more than that. It's really a community, and that's what strikes you when you first walk in. There are common areas. There's a hair salon, a little shop. There are signs posted everywhere of the different activities that they have going on, and the staff is really fully engaged and committed. They are connected to the community and they have, as Kim mentioned, they have processes in place to make sure that they stay connected. It's a place where you would want your parent to be if they were in independent living because you know that there are eyes on them and that there is a lot of focus on keeping everyone engaged. We visit a unit. The quality is excellent. There's nothing that would say this is an affordable unit. Really nice, as Kim mentioned, about 630 square feet. But it's plenty spacious. There's plenty of room. It's a nice layout in this particular facility. And also, if you've had the chance to visit other units, as you have, Daryl, right, for your mom, and I visited a bunch of them for my mom, I would put this at the top. I would say this is best in class in terms of the quality that I've seen and also the community and just the coverage that they provide for folks. And I think HSL is the best in class here, and not only are they going to design it for Littleton, but for themselves, right? They have their own brand to consider, and I think that that's a really positive thing for us to want to engage with them where they have that standard. Just a couple other things. Any question that we asked, like the questions that you asked about preference for Littleton residents, They have all the answers, right? This is all they do is work with seniors. So it's just really nice to know that we're working with the experts. And, yeah, in summary, I think it would be incredibly fortunate for us in Littleton to have HSL come in and develop this for our seniors. I think we should jump at the chance.

Thank you.

This is an informal discussion, but I'll invite the people who took their time to come out and hear this to speak. Rob?

Rob Rounds, 25 Juniper Road. Very excited to hear what I heard. Just a few detailed questions, probably too detailed, but there's parking spaces for the 80 and 90 units. Okay, and from a standpoint of the transition going from independent living, you said you've got assisted memory care and others. Does your resident service team identify and do the people that need those services have preference within your various campuses, etc. ?

Well, I mean, I think with Littleton, given the location and not being that proximate to our assisted living and long-term care, I'm not sure that would be people's first choice, but certainly because we are a whole system, if people need and want to take advantage of those services, then we can absolutely coordinate that. I do think up there some of our work will be to understand who the local providers are and develop really strong relationships with them so that our team can work with them and help with any transitions and make those as smooth as possible.

Okay. And last question pertains to the dining experience, which is often, from my experience, loved ones, is very much a social engagement and critical part element. Not having it, I just want to emphasize how I heard about the van transition, you know, to try to be worked out. That seems to be like a very important aspect that I might add into another thing to really explore with regard to Center on Shattuck Street in order to figure out that scenario, because from my personal experience, that was absolutely critical over an extended period of time. So I encourage that, but look forward to this. Thank you. Thank you.

I will say on dining, you know, with a site of this size, we wouldn't, as I mentioned, be able to have a full dining venue in there. But I am excited about, you know, meeting, learning about the Senior Center, understanding what their programs are, and again, seeing if we can do something really creative just because of everything else happening right next door. George.

George Sanders, 672 Great Road. My concern is I've been talking with the developer there and he had mentioned to me that what he really wanted to do for Littleton was something that he wanted to do because his father always told him, always remember to do for others. And the thing that he wanted to do for Littleton was that he wanted to do something for the seniors because the seniors have very little when it comes to housing here in the town of Littleton. So he said that he wanted to put in some deeply, deeply affordable senior housing That was his main objective as he discussed it with me. And I would like to know, because I wrote to the governor about this deeply, deeply affordable housing and spoke with her on the 21st when I was at the state house receiving an award. And she said that she supported this deeply, deeply affordable housing for Levelton. And I thanked her. Because she said, what you wanted was my support for this. And I said, yes. She said, you have my support. And I was pleased to hear the governor say that. So my main concern is because he said to me that it was Littleton where he wanted to put this deeply affordable housing. And I'd like to know from you, and he also spoke about your organization with me as well, That's why he wanted to partner up with you to do this housing at 410. I'm concerned the question has been asked already, how many housing, but I'm concerned about Littleton resident. Do we know how many units? He said to me, the letter that I sent out to the governor, I said 60 and I put the number 100 there. So I'm concerned about what is the number? What number has been talked about? I've heard, you know, 80 units or 90 units. What is the number that you're looking to put in Littleton? First part of the question. The second part is, do we have Any idea of that number? I know you said that we have to present it to the state for the state to approve and say, yeah, Littleton get this. But I think it's important that we know a little bit about what the number, because in the past, when we were talking about 40 units, they was kicking the number around, how many Littleton residents would get that, and then the rest would be open to the local... to other citizens in town, the citizens that wanted to come and move in on that. So that's a key concern to me because I have a local TV show and I'm telling the seniors about what this developer has said that he wants to do for Littleton resident. So I got that embedded in their head now as to what he wanted to do for Littleton. So I like to hear from you. What is it that you're wanting to do for Lilton?

I certainly will give it to Morgan to speak about any specifics. I think it's a little bit early to know where we are with numbers. I understand and I hear you that the town is interested in local preference, and that is something that we've been successful in other projects achieving while working with the state and applying for that through the state. I think we are way too early to put a number on that. We have work to do. We need to work to figure out the design the total number of exact units, the financing, the market study that I mentioned that will tell us that will help drive that local preference process. But I, you know, I hear you and I understand that that is very important to you as a town member and it sounds like to many on the board as well. So certainly be mindful of that as we continue the work.

do you mind if i make the comment back to george so so i was going to just make one comment back but i think there could be something there one of the struggles i had personally is you know there's the need for senior housing we recognize at some point though that my parents parent recognizing it's time to move out And if they don't start identifying that they're ready to move out, we don't identify that local demand that's gonna be needed here. So I think it's critical for, as you're communicating to the seniors, is making sure they're clear on signaling that there's an actual demand for this, that they're not gonna stay in their house. It took me eight months to convince my mother to give up her house. I believe it. That was after multiple years of trying there. I've just experienced, personally, making sure the seniors recognize they are ready to move to a thing there. When they do their survey and their studies there, if the seniors aren't raising their hand that they're going to move into it, we won't get those local preference slots. And so I think that's something that's going to be key for you to communicate to your listeners and the seniors that you're working with, that they have to be ready to start identifying that they are ready to move to a facility like that, give up their house. On it and I'm telling you that was the that was a major hurdle There I bet you experienced the same thing there For it. So so anyway, I just want to I think we're probably you know Based on the timelines probably eight months too soon for some of those questions But I know that we need to start laying some groundwork on both sides Okay, you made me lose my thought as to where I was there but

Anyway, it's good to hear here this evening that this board is willing to put forth the effort and do what they need to do in terms of helping the company to get this project up off the ground at 410. It is something that we need in the area for the resident. And hopefully the resident will realize that, as I told them time after time, there are still people around that care about the seniors. It's very glorifying to know that Mr. LaPole really cares about the seniors, Pacific here in the town of Littleton. And I appreciate him wanting to do what he wants to do here in terms of putting forth a deeper, deeper for the senior housing because our seniors live off a very limited income. And they have to... One about the haves and have nots. And I thank this board, first and foremost, for the opportunity to hear you say that you support such a project for the seniors here in the town of Littleton. And I'm grateful to you for your support. Thank you. Thank you, George. Mark.

Mark Randbacher, Hartwell Avenue. I'm on the Affordable Housing Trust and the Select Board, so I have comments on this from a lot of different perspectives. To what Daryl was just saying, I think two or three years ago, it's been now, the Lopoli Company came in. We did a presentation over at the library asking the seniors what they would like to see in the housing, and everyone, almost to a person, said, we don't want to move to an apartment. We can't afford apartments. We need to stay in our houses. So there is a huge educational component that we have to do in town to help people realize that they can give up their house, that they can afford to live in these places, that type of thing, to take this preference. So that's my general comment. From the Affordable Housing Trust, I think this is a great project and we really need it in town and we should be supporting it. Having said that, the Affordable Housing Trust has a lot of fueler projects out right now. So when you're coming to ask us for funds, we kind of need to know sooner rather than later. So before we start committing things to other projects. So we kind of need to know scales and things. from the select board and CPC hat. We have town meetings in November and May, so if you want money and support from us, we need to know a couple, we need to get those on the warrant a couple months in advance, and there's a lot of groundwork we need to lay for that. So I'm just suggesting that to get some of these funds is, it's not that it's going, Time is going to be of the essence if you want approval on a November town meeting. We're really going to have to be working on this pretty soon. If you want to wait until May, we have a little bit more time, but we're going to have to be starting on some of these processes pretty soon. Thank you. Thank you.

Any comments to Morgan? Morgan always is telling us time is of the essence.

On the same page this time.

Okay, thank you all for coming to this. This was sort of the last minute thing. Thank you, Kim. We heard great things from the people that attended your site visit. Thank you, Morgan. You've always taken the time to bring us along on this. For now, I just want to make a plea for no one to drop the ball. I'm still trying to understand who has the ball. I think it's LaPolle, but it's also HSL. Mark's comments are well taken. We do have some resources that are in the Affordable Housing Trust bucket. I'm on the CPC. Carolyn Muller is on the CPC. I asked her to come. the town contribution has to be defined sooner rather than later.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for coming. Thank you.

Okay. That's done. Maren, do you want to do the site plan stormwater thing now or after board business?

Well, it's up to you. You should do it now while you have more than one day.

So... We have, hopefully, the final version of the town green site plan decision and stormwater permit decision. And the point that we've been going back and forth on for a couple weeks is a town some kind of surety that what's called the, what are we calling it, the King Street Common green, we know it's not going to be.

We should call it the, and listening to Margo, I think we should call it the Tuttle Green.

whatever however so in the end what has been come up with that is more or less I think okay and from the police view okay is item number 20 which is KSC Green will be an integral part of the Phase 1 King Street.

Okay, so the one that you're reading that's in the copy in front of you, that's the one that Morgan wanted to talk about.

This has not been gone through by our attorney, but this is what they would like us to consider, and we can give direction tonight whether we'll consider it.

Jeff, you're mishearing me. Okay. The one that Morgan has suggested takes away having it tied to the third occupancy permit. He said that might be an issue for financing. So he's hoping that they would be asked to either finish the town the King Street common green or Grade seed reclaim it right or put a bond in place for that At a time frame that's after completion of the five buildings So Which is item 20 right but item 20 says after the third building is occupancy of the third building.

That's the problem.

Oh, okay. Was the new language shared? No. No.

Okay, so that's why. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. So basically, you just want to not tie it to the occupancy of the third building. You want to have any, if the green isn't achieved. Now, I want to tell the board, it's sort of common sense that they need to finish the green to have tenants to have a viable project. So there's no anticipation that that's going to be stinted on. In fact, I've been told that their leases probably will require the accomplishment of that green for them to rent commercial space. In this version, we do have recourse if at the end of phase one the town green is not accomplished. The planning board can require a bond for grading, seating, and reclaiming the site. and this will be enforced by the issuance of occupancy and this is not, we are not doing the third building, we're doing

Well, for your policy input, the request is to allow up to the fifth building.

Up to the fifth building. Now, the reason for this, why it has been pushed back on, is that they have financing for the entire thing and that using the third building is not acceptable to the entities that finance this. My concern about this has always been just not to have a construction zone in the middle of this project.

It's your concern, too.

Correct. And if we have... Construction zone in perpetuity, like just sort of specifies. And you have also said that if there is this problem, then the whole project is, you know, in trouble. So I'm... fine with removing the you know to to roping in the basically the first phase what we call first phase one retail um but let's talk about it among the board well i'll start off i don't think we have the right to ask him for a bond in the first place this is not a roadway it's a private entity

Usually the only time the planning board has ever asked for a bond is when there's a road involved, and they get the lot releases by posting a bond to make sure the road will be finished. As you stated, it's in their best interest to finish this green sooner rather than later. We never posted any bonds up at the point. They just, and they're still, they still have one more pad left to go that they've taken 10 years to do and we have no bond up there. I don't see a reason why we should have to, why we should ask them for a bond.

Well, I think the difference between this and the point is that this particular, you know, the pad, unfinished pad at the point is at the very end of, it's out of sight. I agree. This is not. So I think we can maybe go a little further in this matter because of that situation.

Okay, but I still, what mechanism do we have that gives us the right to ask him for a bond?

Well, because we would, well, and this has also been brought up. There are other phases of this development that are going to come before us pretty soon, and those phases can be held up. we can condition the furtherance of further occupancy of buildings for these future phases.

I would rather see it that way.

Well, that's implied in what we're talking about.

I'd rather see that than have to post a bond for this. I'd rather see you can't start phase four.

So we have a belt and suspenders. And we're not talking about a bond to...

It's not even a big bond.

It's peanuts. No, no, no. I mean, it's to make a field. It's peanuts. And partially under that field is the subsurface drainage for the phase one , which is why it's appropriate in the stormwater permit decision. But anyway, marginal.

So I don't have the historical context that you do, but just hearing kind of constituent feedback now, I hear a lot of, like, But why do we have that eyesore up at the point that has never been completed? Can't planning board or can't the town rein that in in some capacity? Like having things not fully completed up there.

I mean, you know, there's the... Talk to the people who live in Gray Farm, you know.

Yes, yes. But then I've also heard that about the... the open, weed-filled lot next to Northern Bank. Like, what are we doing to rein that in? Shouldn't we have done something there? And just because we have precedent that we didn't put a bond or something else in place to require completion with other projects, I don't think we should take that, use that as a limiting factor here. I think, to your point, we all want to see it get done, including you. And I think Good contracts make for good policy, so I would like to see that language tightened up in here.

But we don't have the right to ask it. That's my point. We're a planning board. We're a regulatory. We don't have the right to ask them for a bond on a privately owned property. We only have the right to ask for a bond if you're asking us for something, like if you're building a subdivision and the roads aren't done. We have the money to finish the roads, Jessica. That's the only point.

So what can we put in here?

We could put some conditions in there that they couldn't get the occupancy for Building 3 or Building 4 or something.

Well, this is what is in this, and they're asking us to... use that for further phases, not for this phase?

I'm okay with it. If you're okay with it, I'm okay with it. My point is it sets a bad precedent. We don't have the right to do this.

For 35 years, we've never... And the background is we'll be seeing soon the next phase of retail, which is where the hotel is going to be. So the completion of that... green is even more imperative for the developer.

It's just that I don't like setting precedent. That's the only thing. I don't have a problem if we continue it and do it this way, if they're okay with it. It's just that we only bond roads. That's all the point.

And we do under, we would have this concept of if they're walking away, they have to at least return, put a grass seed up, seed it, grade it.

What is town council's guidance on this?

Well, the tool that we didn't have 35 years ago is the stormwater permit process. And that specifically gives the planning board the authority to set a bond for completion of the stormwater work.

like jeff said a lot of the storm water for the site is treated at this site it under the it's under the lawn great so it's appropriate to have a bond in place that construction debris is not left there and again it's not actually accusing you of doing that this is just in terms of making sure there's basic protections for the town uh there i'm

And in speaking with town council, he would like just final direction from the board, and then he'll draft the wording based on your direction.

So to sum up, what, and other team Bartlett, well, I want to meet Bartlett, why don't you speak to this issue?

Okay, Morgan, are you, what's your plan for the sequencing of the five commercial buildings? Are you going to do them all at once? Are you going to do them every, a finished one every three months?

I think the true answer is we're still working through that. The, and I forget who I may have mentioned, Tamara or someone else in this conversation is, Flexibility, though, on that front is paramount, which is one of the other reasons we had a lot of trouble with this third building, which felt both arbitrary but also restrictive. And when we get restrictive, then we have to start doing things a certain way to adhere to that. I don't know if we're going to go east to west, or west to east, or we're going to try to do whatever we lease first. The idea is to build it all at once, for the most part. But that doesn't mean there isn't also sequencing, and also there's a staging area and using free space so that we can build faster. store equipment, store other things, obviously in a tidy way, but my sense is that we'd like at least the option to have some of this land usable as we try to finish all of the vertical construction nearby, which is again why it's really important that it just can't be in the middle that we have to build the field and then tear it up every time we need to go across it.

So is all the drainage structure in? Where this is going to be, the drainage will all be in. The only thing is it's not finished.

That would be right. That would be right.

You have to get all the drainage structure.

Again, we have to look at the sequencing, but yes. I understand the town's position. It's just we are very incentivized to not have the hole in the middle of our property. And then once we move, as the chair mentioned, to the other side of the green area, I mean, that is a, we can't even fill those buildings unless the whole thing is completely filled. I mean, the landscaping, the hardscaping, the lights, the electric, I mean, no one's going to go to those if that's not done. Really, the first part of it's not going to work if we don't have that completed. But again, we run into trouble if we start talking to lenders and they say, wait a minute, if you do this footfall, then all of a sudden this falls apart and then you lose leases and then this thing spirals out. We just cannot do that. So we've presented language that we believe we can work with.

Which this, I thought this was, I thought this was that way.

But you're just pushing it out to fifth building.

Well, you're pushing it out to.

We're not pushing it out, but we're allowing for flexibility.

You're saying at the end of the fifth building, if it hasn't been completed, there will be a bond to lease it. or will complete and in addition to that we're saying that we will in the future phases probably phase two which is coming well what are you calling what are you calling the supermarket

I don't know. I don't have a name for it yet.

On the other side of the green, we will, you know, impose conditions at that point.

But it seems to me that you're not going to be able to open the buildings 11 and 12 if that green is not, I mean, if that's bulldozers and whatnot equipment there. So you need to finish it before you can get those buildings functioning.

Occupied, yes. But the way it will work is we'll build the core and shell, and then the tenant will come in and they will have their own build out as well. So it's at some point there you really want everything finished.

Could you throw up the map that shows all of those buildings around the green and all? I signed out a little bit. Give me a second.

And so then the other part of that discussion was to consider whether the board would be comfortable with setting a date certain for either completion or grading and seating or bonding.

And this was a suggestion of the council.

Because that gives both the town and the developer an either or.

I mean, could we do something like 60 days after occupancy of whatever the adjacent building is there, right?

It's 1,112.

I would suggest that it would be after the... I think what Morgan is suggesting is it be after the completion of the final building, the fifth building, whatever sequence that's in.

I was just thinking in terms of if we issue, I think one of your diagrams showed a restaurant, a two-tier restaurant type of thing right up next to the green. To me, it would seem that once we issue the occupancy permit for that 60 days, they should have that. not look like a construction site anymore.

The two pink buildings beside it, that's what we're talking about, right?

So you're going back to the third building? Is that what you're talking about? I don't know.

No, so you have. I can't see the numbers there. So this is $1,100, $1,200. All right, $1,100, $1,200. What happened to $1,300? It's still there.

It's still there. It's not colored.

Oh, $1,300, $1,400, $1,500. Yeah.

Okay. So $1,100 and $1,200 a box.

the green or the common area there.

And to me, it would seem that would 60 days after issuing of the occupancy permit for that, because that's when you'd expect customers to start coming in, that the green be

Yeah, it just goes back to flexibility, Daryl. I mean, I don't know what that's – I guess we should just maybe start over on what the town is trying to accomplish. My sense is don't have an open pit there for a long period of time. Within that boundary, though, if we're doing this whole phase right here, really trying to do this all at once, I don't know if that's highlighting that – We would just, we're asking for the opportunity to just finish that work and then make sure we, that this is finished afterwards or regraded. But I think we're getting, I feel like we're getting a little too in the nitty gritty here of what buildings are finished when and then when that town green is. It's again, it's in our interest to do that, but we're asking for, we need more flexibility. I don't know if I'm even asking, I guess. We really need more flexibility. So, because if we... If we do 1,500 after 1,200 for some reason, but not 1,100, it's just, you know, what are we trying to do? I don't know why we're overcomplicating it.

And honestly, if that's the direction that the board is comfortable in going, then town council will work with Napoleon coming up with recommended final wording.

Like I said, I don't necessarily need to be super hard over on this. I just want to put some basic protections in. And I could be flexible in that as long as the town's perspective is protected there.

Well, the wording, if the planning board deems that a bond for grading, seating, and reclaiming the site was required prior to issuance or is required, and then we eliminate the third building. And I'm uncomfortable with the timeframe. i just you know i mean who knows how this is going to go we want it to go great yeah um but we don't have control over exactly um that i mean we can't force them to build something if they have no money to do it morgan when are you going to take the other green space apart the one with the the orchards and everything in it behind the title house now when is that i mean that's this area right here um well it's

not sure yet mark honestly but i mean it'll be part it would likely be part of this because you have to put the title house somewhere out your site together yeah so we got to get that figured out and finalize that but um you know yeah so the options that we're discussing are gated by the date but it sounds like that is that's too tough to wrap our arms around or gate it by tying it to the occupancy of the third building sounds like you don't want right it sounds like you were saying can we tie it to the occupancy of 1100 and 1200 since they're the buildings with the closest proximity to the green so it seems like it is most relevant to the tenants of those buildings right is that fair to say I mean it's most important I would say sure

or give us this. So I appreciate Mark's point of view about bonding on private property. I appreciate Marin's perspective on, yes, it is appropriate because it's part of the stormwater system. So what... How would it be worded for this first, you know, with the designated first phase, which is 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500.

Did we run out of time? Because we put a lot of thought into wording that was really workable. And I guess it didn't get shared. But that would have helped maybe answer that question. well usually when we get stuff right before the meeting yeah i hear you i know i know we and i know we're all pushing so um but it does speak to to me from my perspective our perspective it it protects the town um it incentivizes us to finish the work um and it's sort of and it sets a deadline and a timeline for it but it's tied to the first phase of the retail and it's not more complicated so that's a that's an interesting way of putting it those three points we are in agreement that those are all points that we want to consider

Right. And so the question for the board, I can read this if it's helpful. Okay. If upon completion of phase one of the retail project, buildings 11, 12, 13, 14, and or 1500, the KSC green site remains disrupted and has not been graded and seated reclaimed, the applicant shall post a bond based on grading and seeding and reasonably satisfactory to the planning board in both form and amount until the applicant has brought the KSC Green site to a satisfactory minimum condition of graded and seeded slash reclaimed, which may not happen until the applicant completes the construction of the retail buildings abutting the opposite side of the KSC Green from the Phase 1 retail development. to the extent required said bond for this work shall be posted with the planning department. The difficulty with that is not, for zoning purposes we're used to tying bonds to a building permit or an occupancy permit or something. That the developer needs from the town as far as what the time frame is This doesn't quite identify it But if this is the direction that the board wants to go dead town council can can come up with appropriate wording I'm I'm also

Once again, I can't imagine you going forward with your retail without this green, in addition to all the other things. However, the way that's written is if you did building $1,100, $1,200, $1,300, $1,400, and didn't do $1,500, you know, anyway, I don't know.

And that's why maybe a time frame, you know, November 2029, if it's not. done yet that it needs to be graded and seated or behind it.

So what do you feel about a time frame?

Yeah, I mean, one idea we had to that concern was if we said something like construction had halted for a period of six or eight months or longer, that we would have to post a bond immediately. Okay, that's interesting. And I think it goes to the concern, and that gives us a little bit of time. It's pretty tight, and maybe I might get a little slap on the wrist when I get back to the office, but is... you know, I think we can understand that, given this language, so that if the time has passed, to your point, if we for some reason don't bill $1,500 and then we just, everything, but again, it just starts getting a little silly to us because it's like, we're not going to be... Your whole great processional there would be nothing... And even, yeah, I mean, even the grading and the seating, that's something we would do without being asked because it's...

I like the idea of the Let's say eight-month hiatus.

Yeah. Prolonged cessation of construction is the term that I have for later discussion tonight. Okay. You're okay with that?

Yeah, I mean, I just want to, well, I'd like to see what town council comes up with. What I would just say, as long as we have the opportunity either to do the work or post the bond, because, you know, we might just be like, yeah, we'll do the work.

I think as long as you're working on it, we don't have a problem.

Yeah, of course.

Things stop for some reason. That's what we need to do. So, you know, tying it on to, you know, that construction progress is halted, you know, and then we can set a timeline based on that. I think, you know, gets to our intent, right? Something's happened. Work has stopped. We need that site cleaned up.

So you're getting painted by the northern bank brush right now.

It is. It's an eyesore. I agree. And I told the manager there that it is. Unfortunately for you. So...

we have direction is there any other comments i think we've spent enough time on this and uh so that uh concludes uh then this was an unscheduled thing morgan please give us some credit for going over it at this meeting we appreciate it thank you so much um thank you for coming thank you

So can we go back one more thing? Well, we still have Morgan. Since we're talking about the senior housing and everything else like that, I think we need from you what you need from us.

Yep.

You need to send us some sort of memorandum, a checklist of where you're going with it and what we need to do with it so we have it in writing so that the boards that are going to be affected can get going. Because as Mark said, If we want to try to get something in November, we need a roadmap of what we need to do to get there for November.

That's very fair. Give us a little time to get that together. I'm just saying it should come from you.

But I think November could be doable. Yeah, I definitely do too.

The other thing I think we're all... needed a little bit more guidance on, insight on, in terms of is what level of town commitment for funding. Yeah, absolutely. You know, are we talking $10, $100,000, $1 million, $10 million? It's not $10,000. It can't be $10 million. No, but we need a ballpark so that we know what we need to do to

We're in the sort of early dancing phase, and I think both sides didn't want to scare the other off, so I think we're now hearing that this is something we want.

Have you seen a pro forma of one of their projects?

I have not actually, not recently. Because you asked for one? Well, I don't know if she will, but I certainly can get a better sense of what the expectation is. My understanding, though, is it's, you know, it's... They sort of refer to it as a gesture, but I think it should be meaningful to some extent. And also, I'm sure she'll say, the more the better. These things are really tough to capitalize, and it's a big project.

So would we have a problem if it was 100 as opposed to 90? Do we want to cap it?

What I know is that at some point, I think maybe 100 is the number. It just becomes very hard for the state to give so much money to a project. It's that sort of the brackets. It's like 50 is too low, 100 and 150 is too high. Or it becomes multiple rounds and you have to build different buildings.

So, I would also imagine, you know, if the town comes up with money, we would want to tie it to specific affordabilities of so many units. I mean, I'm sure that affects what they're able to do with, you know.

Right. Right. We will have countless conversations about that. She says now is the time. Now we start really getting the engine going.

Dan, do you think that she got what she needed to

I think so, yeah. We'll catch up. But I hope the board got what they needed as well in the community. We're excited.

I hope she heard our enthusiasm. Yeah, I think so.

I think she did, which is great. So we've already candidly had a meeting to try to talk about it.

Well, and I want to acknowledge that I don't think our town... could accomplish this without the facilitation, I mean, apart from money and all that stuff, without the facilitation of your organization, because it wouldn't have occurred to us.

It would never happen.

We have a long way to go, but I appreciate that. I know, but I mean, I just acknowledge it. Yeah, no, I grew up in a very small town like this, so it just seems completely remote to where I grew up. But it's great. We're really excited about making it happen. Thank you, though.

thank you okay great thank you thank you um it's now almost eight o'clock eight o'clock holy this is our white meeting uh everyone who's still here the rest of this is a um you have draft minutes from may 14th right sorry does anyone have any issues make a motion to approve the draft minutes of May 14th. Second. All in favor? Aye.

Thank you.

Okay. Now, our retreat. And the purpose of this is to just, you know, we have an endless... surf of projects coming before us. Sometimes the surf is really violent, sometimes it's not. But we have stuff that will be coming before us, which often doesn't give us time to think about other things we should be thinking about or could be thinking about or might want to consider. And when I say, you know, this endless churn of stuff, you know, the Dollins site will be, you know, in play. The Baptist Church site will be in play. Apparently the old Cumberland Farms site is coming into play. So there's, in addition to all the other... random ANRs and small developments. So I don't think we need to go into that type of thing at this, but we want to bring up other things that we might want to be considering. Go ahead.

I was going to say, LCTV generally doesn't cover board retreats. So if the board's ready to move on to the retreat, then LCTV can sign off. And we'll redo the Zoom and get started in just a moment. Thank you.