Planning Board - Regular Meeting

name. Oh, we're on film. Yeah. Uh, hello Lichfield and welcome to the first meeting of the circumferential highway exploratory committee. Um, hate acronyms, but check is one that works. Um, it's April 29th at 6 o'clock and we're going to start off with the pledge of allegiance, please. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I wanted to start by going around and just introducing the members that are on this committee. Um the committee is being formed due to the awareness made to the select board by the DOT that they are going to be um getting rid of the circumferential highway land that they purchased back in the 1950s60s7s. Um there's hundreds of acres of land that goes to the town first. Um so we wanted to do a committee. So that's where we are and the members that are here. Can we start over here with Rick? Rick Shaberno, 401 Charles Bankraftoft Highway, Lichfield.

And you've lived in town for 47 48 years. Laura Gandandy, zoning board member. Marian Colby um heritage commission. Diane Pinsky, select board. Letha Riley, uh planning board. George Lavash, Conservation Commission and the Zoning Board. Uh Jason Brennan, Conservation Commission.

So, this is our first meeting. Um and as exploratory committee means, we're going to be looking into what can happen with this land as the first refusal. Um and tonight, Jay is going to give us a short overview or an overview of the land that we are looking at. So, you want to start? Oh yeah, grab that. Okay. Based on a concert ba uh based on a conversation that started um earlier this year, uh I put together a series of maps just to kind of highlight the area. So, everybody should have their little map package here. Um, if you're looking at map one, I'll I'll just give like a a brief overview of what you're looking at. On the left hand side of the map, you can see the Marramac River. On the right hand side of the map, you can see 102 going north and south. The bottom half of the map, the parcels that are not colored, all that's Hudson. top half of the map, everything that's colored is is in Lichfield and it's, you know, based on the zoning. Um, any property that is labeled a P is private. Anything with the S is state. Anything with T is town and um there's no Town of Blitzfield properties there, but there are some town of Hudson properties on the map. So, the swath of land that we're looking at that we're evaluating, if I start on the left, includes a 38 acre piece of property to the west of Route 3A. And then in between 3A and 102, that big stretch in there looks to be

about 110 acres. And then on the east side of 102, there's two lots there that are total 20 acres. Um the dots that you see on the map that are along 102, those are pieces of property that have houses on them um already. So that's the general lay of the land. If you flip to the second page, it's the same map, but just an aerial base map underneath. You can kind of see what's going on there. What's kind of interesting, if you see where on map two, if you see the mobile home park and you see the piece of property comes down to the town line, there's a sliver there of about 50 ft that between the end of that little property line and the town line. Kind of almost reminds me of the Star Wars when they had to drop the bomb down the little shoot that was like an inch by an inch. right there, Jason.

Basically threading the needle right there. Right there. Yes. So, that's an aerial view. Then, if you go to the third map, which is the closeup, uh that's route uh 102 going right through there. And then on the west side where you see the four pieces of property in a row, you can see that two of the pieces of property have um buildings on them. Right now, what's kind of interesting if you but they're owned by the state. They're owned by the state, but they are residences. Oh, okay.

And it's what's kind of interesting if you total those four up, you going from south to north, there's about 1,000 ft of frontage there. However, you got a piece of property that's got a house on it right in the middle and kind of like breaks it all up. Um, so that's what we've got there for the closeup. And then if you go to the next map, um it says wetlands on it. So these aren't the best wetlands in the world. They're just from the national wetlands inventory. So they're general in nature. They're not flagged wetlands. Uh but it gives you an idea again starting on the left hand side of the map, the 38 acre piece of property by the 55 and older. There's some streams and wetlands in there. And then there's a big chunk in the middle um on that 110 acre piece.

And then there's a little bit on the property on the east side of Route 102 going left to right. That's the wetlands. And then going to the the last map. This is the And I don't know if Rick if you've got anything up your in your record, but this is the only engineering drawing that I found of the area, uh, which is the Lichfield Industrial Park plan from 1979. And that's where you can see the little sliver

of land in the middle where you know if a road were to go in there you can see the mobile home park and then the little sliver of land where there's like a 50 50 or so foot window in there. Um Diane did see a um a a highway layout plan at one of your meetings that was kind of like hanging on the wall, but I couldn't find it anywhere digital. So that was the DOT meeting um that we I went to in in March. Um did did you total up the how many acres it was? Which one? How many acres it is

right on the the total is is about 110 148 168 in that vicinity plus there's some onesie twzies

going up 102. So when the DOT came to Lichfield back in November, what they said to us was is that the town would get first right of refusal and then it would go to the people who own these homes that you can see on one of these maps um to see whether or not they wanted to purchase it. And we said, "Well, we don't want to buy homes for sure." And then that letter went to DOT. Well, that was kind of premature because one of those homes possibly would be in the Jason the right of way for a curb cut. You you were worried about one of the houses.

Oh, yeah. The one in the middle. If anybody if if per chance you you could do anything with that middle acreage the there's one house right in the middle that you would kind of need to get to the back 40 right on 102 that one of those houses. Yeah. The one with the red dot in the middle.

Yep. Gotcha. So, when I was at the DOT meeting, they've already said that um that that person is not going to be interested in buying that house. So, that's already been decided, I guess. Um so, it's back in our lap, but it was premature. And when I found out what it could have meant by us making a very quick decision about a piece of that land without understanding what it meant, um it was at that point that I wanted to do a committee so that we could legitimately look into this land and see if there's anything that we can do with it. Um the DOT presentation, I think I'm going to

Are you done with your map? So did you want to talk about more overview? This just this just gives an overview of what's there right now. And I think you know based on what the board of selectmen said and to to Diane is like they wanted to get a group together to figure out what can be if what can be done. What do we do with this right?

Do you do nothing? I mean you got a few options. do nothing and let the enterprise, you know, whatever the free will of the people do, you know, anybody can buy it um and do what they want with it. That would be like option number one. Option number two is is the town interested in any of this. Option number three is maybe the town's not, but maybe we develop a a vision for what we think could happen here. Or four, maybe can do nothing with it because it's all wet. If private people bought it, do they still have to follow, you know, that it being a commercial zone?

No. What the problem would be would be that um that people aren't going to be able to buy it. That it goes to us first to say we want it or we don't want it and then it goes to the people who live in the houses and then after that it goes to the New Hampshire housing. So the but the problem with the people are they going to want to buy 110 acres at a bottom and the state's not going to break it subdivided to sell. Um I think some of it's already subdivided isn't it in different tax maps and what what you see here is but they could buy the lot they could buy a lot that behind them. Yeah. But

yeah, they're not going to want that all the way to the state's not going to sell them just they may sell them the lots if they abut the lot, but they're not going to sell that right away and only the rightway because then that kills the value of the rest of the land. So now the people that are buyers will have an opportunity if we don't No, it goes right to New Hampshire housing and they decide whether they want it or not. Yeah, I think it's only the existing tenants. Only the existing tenants that are in houses that have been leasing surprised by that letter that came today. Well, the letter that came today is something we can talk about when we got talk about correspondence because there was a lot of questions in that and and I'm happy that everybody got a copy of that letter.

Um, we can talk about that then. But but the thing about New Hampshire housing buying the land, um I when I was at the DOT meeting, I did stand up and ask how much time we would have to review the information that we were going to be able to accumulate. And I also asked him about New Hampshire housing buying the land. Did they have to pay five fair market value for it? And they said yes. And then after the meeting, he came up to me and found out no, they do not have to pay fair market value for this land. they can come in for a much lesser amount, pennies on the dollar.

But that would be if the state wanted to if it's coming into New Hampshire housing, they're going to want it for housing at some reduced rate for something, right? So, there's a there's a possibility they would have to turn it down for it to go to a commercial vendor. Yep. But it but they said it was going to take almost a year to get this stuff all up and ready and appraised and before the council.

So they have to find assessors. They have to which is not an easy endeavor um right now. They have to find assessors. They have to um that we have to have an opportunity. We have to go through at least one more article period to look at this. Um he he was very very nice. um and said that we would have plenty of time to review it. So, we should be able to. But the land is valuable. It's in our one of our only commercial areas, south and north, and that's all we have.

Well, we have there's a lot of commercial area left in the south end of town. Just about um everything from cage south pretty much, right? pretty much from Rodonis' uh Rodonis's farm, the uh the north side of Rodonus' farm. So I think if you looked at the the map, you'll Oh, it's right behind you. Yeah. So So all this purple. Yeah. This is all commercial. Like that Nash land owned by Nash is commercial.

Nash Nash is Yep. Nash is um that whole piece is um the the fields right here. That's Nashville. This this whole thing right here. Um the Wilson own this piece. There's a good portion of that that's in that commercial. Yep. So,

it's a large area though that that does I mean I guess we need to decide how much of that land isn't wetlands because when they they did the DOT um presentation in March what they said was that it kept failing due to um spotted egrets and turtles and all kinds of um conservation issues. The EPA the EPA failure was on the other end on the Hudson end.

On the Hudson end that was they where they came across up by W was road and in that area I guess Musquash uh Musquash over there road all out through there was all wet and they would have came across they had huge impacts and that was all part of the circumference. Yeah. It would have went right there from the Sagamore bridge. Okay. looped out Wom Road by Benson's road. Right. Rick, have you do you know this property at all? I do because that's where I was going to put my asphalt plant in 1987 on that property.

Till we filled the uh the auditorium with people against us from Hudson's. Oh. Then we decided we weren't doing that. So were you going to put in London? It is on the 110 acres in Lichfield. Yep. Okay. The actually at the end of that where the 50 where the 50 acres is. Yeah. That's where it was going. So, we were going to build the road in and that's where the the plant was going to go. So, my father-in-law and um another gentleman named Matt Sofka owned that property. They're the ones that actually sold the state. Okay. Leon Callawa.

So, so you said where the 50 acres are. Where where are the 50 acres? Show up on this 50 50.7 Oh, on on the last page where that where it says that that's where it was going to go. I got you. That's not 50 acres. It's the, you know, just about right there. When you take the wet land, it comes in that whole thing. And where were you going to be able to access it from? From from 3A. We're building the industrial drive. Oh, okay. Okay. From 102 or from No, 3A. From 3A.

It really looks attractive because you could get to it from 102 because anytime anything happens on 3A down at Wilson, uh down at Mcquest's or or at Spooky World or up at Noel's Tree Farm, it pretty much stops the road. So to be able to get in and out of it from 102 kind of made it look attractive. The biggest problem with the property is the amount of wetland that's that's actually on it. Yep. I don't think that this map here isn't think it's more than what's on there. Yeah. Than what's there?

Which is difficult. I mean it's not u difficult I mean that the the property on 102 is good that when when it's on 102 that's the the best yeah best part of it why do you say that you need one of the houses to access you just right in the middle if you look at the last map

um the the blow or not the last map the a blowup map. You You don't You don't need it because there is enough space to get back there. Um I think there's 80 ft from from side to side during that that little gap right here. I think is is 80 ft. I think you get enough. Yeah, it's it's good enough. But uh but if someone wanted to there there's wetlands back there. I don't know if somebody the the good thing about this property is the frontage on 102 and it's actually got a road that people drive on.

Um so if anything were to to go there, you know, some sort of commercial property, I think they would want to have frontage and and that's like smack dab in the middle of it all. So, if we I guess the big question is if we decided that it would be in Lichfield's best interest to buy this land as opposed to let it go to New Hampshire housing where New Hampshire housing's biggest problem right now in in their mind is um is low-inccome and workforce housing. If we decided that it would be in our best interest to buy this as opposed to let them come in, but we still want to be able to turn around and make it commercial. Is that a possibility? Is that something we could do?

Problem commercial is is all well, it all depends what you want to do. If you want to have little ste steel buildings for contractors, um you can have those, but anything else um anything brick and mortar is pretty pretty tough. Um how come there's no market? People work from home now when they used to go to an office and we had office space was in high demand. The space was in high demand. But now it's it's gone the other way quite significantly.

So if you're going to if you want to build something contractors yards, electricians if you can get them, you know, people that don't need the exposure to the road. Um but to say you're going to get a big manufacturer to come in and build a building, first problem we have we don't have sewer.

That's a that's a serious problem. That's a the number one problem because anybody that's So if you're going to if you're going to get somebody to come in, most businesses that will come in and build a goodiz building right now need sewer because they they're going to use a lot of water. Unless you could get a warehouse, but even the warehouse market is is dried up quite a bit. I mean, there's a lot of buildings that that have started that never finished and or are empty because they never they never got it. What about something like an assisted living facility? Now, granted, there'll be another problem because it's not sewage, right? Is that something that would prohibit that from going back there?

Which one? Septic and assisted living facility. uh sewage is more I mean you can for residential or anything like that you can get away with septic systems but when it comes to a commercial use or an office building or a manufacturer they have to have sewer they're going to go with the sewer. Now you can get um you know like the the people by Mel's you you'll get them um you'll get like Joel the Finnegan fence you'll get bu buildings like that but then again even those people they want acts they want to be visible right right and they are

so that's what you know they want to be visible they want to be on a main road traffic counts as everything y that's right which again makes that 102 section more marketable. The 102 section is very marketable. Yeah. And that's 100 110 back here would be candidates to go there. No idea.

I don't think there is a lot of candidates that not having not having access to 102 is a problem. Um the it's like for instance the Nash people they they're just sitting on that property. They don't they don't know what they're going to do with it. And the biggest reason is there's no there's no buyers. There's no they can't build go build a commercial building because they don't have sewer. So I I'm not sure what they're going to do with it, but they bought it very reasonable and they're just sitting on it. Um, didn't we send a letter of conservation to them?

No. Um, I do have the presentation um from DOT that will give you an overview people watching of what the um circumventual I do have it up there. Oh, you've got it up there. Okay. Thank you. So, the first page shows you um the original project. Make sure I'm on the You are. Yeah, I'm there. That's the That's it. It's 12 miles long interstate which we which we were crazy they never built but the problem is when they wanted to build it everybody went against it right then it was a tough tough battle. Yeah. It was a it was impossible. Every I mean the state was pretty well all set.

Everybody went against it and then they rerouted it like a couple times. Yeah. Um and just too much opposition. Yeah. And it was EPA that actually shut them down. No, it's gone. Um gone forever.

Then we continue on with some other maps. This is all showing where where it came from. Um and then it goes into the background of the project. It's down a few pages. Was introduced in the 50s and 60s. They started buying land in 50s and 60s and they started in the 80s to the actual plans. There was some interesting I think we can get some pictures of the DOT. The original structural plans um they were very very old and were up on the wall at the DOT presentation.

I might be able to look up that number just for the heck of it. I don't know if it would provide any value, but there's a it looks like there's a DOT plan number there. C2432E could be somewhere. The plants that they had hanging at this last meeting over in Hudson were the original plans that they had hanging 10 years ago or 11 years ago when they it came out of the 10-year plan because it was at that meeting at Lions Hall. Okay.

Back then they they're the same set. They were all war torn and ragged. Um, and then you go down a couple and you see you see um the the public hearing that was done in 1988. Um, 1993 was reconvened. Um, and it really just kind of kept dying. Um, 85 and started the hearing. Yeah. 85. Oh, was there a 93

85 88 and then 93 reconvened um with a couple of different changes to it. And then when I I know when they looked at when the um the bridge over to Marramac, that kind of was like the end end of it, I guess. Um final environmental impact statement was issued in October 1993. Um and in 94 they issued an intent to veto notice to the department. So it's kind of interesting. It's available on the website. So it goes down to dissolving the highway layout. J is down a few more pages

right there. Dissolving. Yep. Yeah, it's going to officially end the project, which has really been ended for decades. Um, remove any commitments and about concerns, disposal of the properties they've acquired, meeting with town officials, they already met with us in December, Marramac in January, Hudson in January, and a public meeting in March of 2026. Submit governor and council resolution informationational item that officially dissolves the highway layout.

So they have go into the process to dispose of the properties. They're going to commit a market analysis, receive a long range committee approval to sell an offer the properties to the town, market the properties to the New Hampshire housing, and then the governor and executive council approve of the sale and close on the properties. So, I mean, I don't think Ry there's probably no way to find out whether or not the um But New Hampshire Housing wants it or is going to build on it. I would say that's probably going to be close to their vest.

But I mean, if it comes to the it's got to go to the governor's council, so whatever it is, it's going to be public. It's going to be a public meeting. They do publish the agenda for that uh for everyone. So, um, this also shows the Hudson state properties and the Lfield State properties by tax map and goes into each each tax map section of how many acres it is as well and the assessed values of that land. And since they're not being taxed on it, I don't

know where they're getting out from. But in this report, Diane, it does say the towns had no interest. So is that the towns current tenants given first rate refusal? But it says if interested since the towns and NHFA had no interest. What's NHFA? NHFA. Is that the housing? Yes. Housing. So they said they had no interest either, right? And we did, but when I talked to him, he said that they the people that own the houses don't or rent the houses don't want them. Okay. So that's only interest in the houses that have tenants in them now. Yes.

Okay. I see. Got you. So it's a it's a large document. I I wanted everybody to have a copy of it. It probably will come up in other meetings. the select on that Litfield State Properties. I just did a little magic here. And it says it's a total of 193 acres 193

tax value, which seems high, but I'm going to make sure they're not double counting. Total assessed value three 3.1 million. Total equalized value 4.8 million. And that's what they think the propertyy's about worth from a tax assessor perspective. And so if we made a proposal to the town to buy it, that seems cheap. It would have to be it would have to be able to turn it around and sell it to a commercial.

But your numbers are off because No, not my numbers. AI. I took a picture of the screen and No, I'm just saying there's a tax assessed value on the 87 uh acres and it says NA. So there's no there's no value in there for um the large chunk. There you go. So the 87 acres don't have a value in this sheet and it obviously has value. Okay. And I don't mean to say your numbers, but okay. That that's why it seems cheap. I to really come up with a a real value of it. Um, you got to know how much you can actually develop because wetland has one value and upper land has much different value.

It's a large area. I know we proposed to to walk it a lot of ticks. You're not far off that you're that you're three and a half million to 4 and a.5 million on what the value of the land is because of the devaluation of the wetlands part. Yeah. When you take but somewhere in there I mean land is land has gone up. So just when I bought uh BAE site that's 90 acres um out of the 90 acres there was 20 acres of wetland and I paid 3.6 million for that. Mhm. Okay. So, just that's right in the same part. So, it actually doesn't sound all that far off

a data point. Yeah. You know, it just you can see what the value is. That's But discussions were that if we did buy it as a town that we would still want to be able to turn around and sell it for commercial use. Well, because we don't want to just sit on it. So would would you want to would you develop it to sell it because then you have to raise more money or you just going to resell it? Um that's going to be the problem to re resell it right away. So it all depends how you how long you want to hold it. Um does the town really want to be a developer? No. Rick, the land that's on the west side of 3A, there's two little pieces that were on this map

between 3A and the river. between 3 3A and the river. Well, those would have better access. Is that correct? Yeah, that the 38 acre piece. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably the better piece out of all the depending how much wetlands there, but that's probably the better piece. And then all the way. So, where it's subdivided on 102. Well, on this Yeah. Where you see that plan? Oh, yeah. Right there where it subdivided. Um, you know, there's a chance of those lots are all established. You'd have to go re Oh, I I see right here south of the trailer park like Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Right. This this plane right here. Yeah. There's a one acre and a 1.012 and a Could you sell each one of those lots? Possibly. It all depends. There might not have been wetlands, but back in the wetland regulations were totally different in 1980 than they are in 26. More restrictive today. They're not even close. Oh, they're more restrictive now. Oh, wait. Oh, god. Yeah, way more. They just filled it in back then. Oh, yeah. Well, well, they used to They used Didn't they fill it in and then you have to make

What do you think that all the stuff that went in that hole in the ground in South Lynchfield or North Lynchfield? There's a lot of things that got filled in that weren't if they were under certain size that that you didn't even have to do anything. You just fill them. They used to sell those. I think it was like dry fill one 20,000 square feet didn't back then you could fill 20,000 square feet with you didn't even need a permit. So yeah, a lot of things has changed. So you'd have to go back all of that, right? Yeah. back through all that. The the the the post the pre-development postdevelopment regulation as far as runoff is totally different

uh for storm water. Yeah. For storm water. I mean they used to be able to dump it in the brooks or dump it right in the river. Now you can't dump anything in a brook till it's pre-treated. So that takes retention areas and more property. So it's a lot different. And Letha likes storm water, don't you? Storm water. You You were kind of geeking out about the storm water drainage of the of what was going on. Water will find its way. So you can't It'll find its way, but the regulations are very Yeah, they're 50fold different than they were in 198. So when there's a good plan or a good design, you appreciate it. She gets excited. I saw that.

So it But it's totally It's totally different. Totally different. So, you do commercial real estate? I do commercial real estate sales and I do commercial real estate appraisals, not at the same time. And so, what are you what are you thinking about this piece of land? What's your what's your market look like?

Just looking at maps, I mean, it's, you know, it's always hard. Um but the the broker part of me looks for the the what's you know what's the buyer pool going to see any of these things as I see visibility to Rick's point earlier you know they're going to be looking for visibility along one of two or 3A um from an appraisal perspective um you got a lot wet that you have to traverse and that was expensive. Um like the western part of the it's a nice big piece goes all the way to the river but I can't tell from these aerials um you know what how extensive that those brooks are. I imagine they're expensive because they feed down into the Marramac, you know, crossing that every time you got to cross something like that and it ain't cheap. Um, I don't know, you know, with all the setbacks, all the wetland buffers and everything else. I I you know I don't I can't tell from just first glance what um what's doable but I mean those those would be the things that I would think about. I would think about um from an appraisal standpoint. Also I you know it's highest and best use is really what it's going to come down to. If you look in this um thing from the DOT, it talks about how there's already an appraisal going on, a market analysis, which is effectively an

appraisal of what um of the Yeah. on each property to determine fair market value. So my guess is if if I were the DOT and I know folks up at DOT, they probably started with the improved properties because those are are easy to pick off. But you got to look at that in the entire context of if this was an assemblage of all of these lots, what's the highest and best use? So they may or may not value those homes as house lots. I don't know what condition they're in. I mean, they they might might not be, you know, it's it's a weird shape.

Does everybody understand the the concept of highest and best use?

I don't know if the folks at home do, but you you look for certain things. You look for whether or not it's physically possible. In other words, you can fit something in a given space. Um, you look for whether it's legally possible, you know, the the zoning ordinances and the setbacks and and all those things. Um, you look to see if it's financially feasible. Would a developer like a Rick see like is it even possible to build it? And then you look at the is it maximally productive? Is this the best use of the land? Um, if all of those four factors, if they all, you know, the moon and the stars align, that's your highest and best use and and you maximize the value there. I I can't tell just looking and I know the stretch along 102 and I like the fact that you've got it on both sides. Um, I see the east side being more having more options just because it looks clean. Um I you know I don't know it's hard to say but there is a lot of frontage a lot of visibility there you know that could be quite valuable the you know there's but as you approach that section and as you leave that section in Hudson into Hudson you're you're in lots of pockets of residential areas and then you're approaching the high school so it's kind of hard to you Yeah, it's kind of what's behind it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's what's behind it. And it's difficult to kind of envision, okay, all of a sudden you're just you're just going to have a commercial building and then couple houses and then commercial building. I I don't I don't know. It's not that that can happen. Yeah. That that's that's common till around here. the people that live in the housing units decide to sell it to to commercial use when so that that's pretty common to see that you know

and it's really actually behind I mean like if we were talking about possibly I don't know how you'd recruit somebody to you know to we want to know what our market was if we were going to try to present this to the people to buy it like who would buy this how do we do that I mean we can't well you'd have to premarket You have to hire a realtor. You're going to hire a realtor in even before we own it. No, you got to buy it first. You got to buy it first. See, so pig and a poke to take a chance on it and then and then see what you can do with it. Basically, it's hard to do that with town money. Speechless. It's Yeah. Well, no, because Rick I've talked to Rick. Rick knows that I don't want to take a penny from the town. I want to

Yeah. I want to turn it into something that has um a low impact for our infrastructure that is already strained with what we have. Um since I haven't lived in town as long as you all have, have there been projects and things that you've talked about just in general in the town that you've wanted to have or like to see? And you mentioned an assisted living place or we did a survey of the town. Um, we had our economic development committee, but a lot Laura was on. I was on it. Yep. There was an a lot of the problems we saw were the same that Rick was saying about the infrastructure. It's hard to to uh,

you know, it's hard to attract big businesses when you don't have and also we don't have the flow through of track. I mean, if you're going to build a supermarket or a CVS, you're going to go where there's more people. And since we're only, you know, nine miles long, we're going to go to one town or the other to do our, you know, commercial

business. So, it was a tricky situation. And the kind of things that people wanted to see in the survey were things like um you know, like micro breweries or vineyard or um you know, little restaurants and things like that. But no one who's going to put in an enterprise like that is going to have it out here where they want they want them here or here where people can see it when they're going to drive by. Traffic traffic. Yeah. I I saw a lot of restaurants in that people answered the survey. They wanted restaurants, but there's only so big of a restaurant you can put if you if you don't have sewer.

Well, exactly. Plus, you're not going to attract a big chain type restaurant because they have them here and they have them here already, you know, so they're not going to put in more. It was it was a tough, you know, task that we were tasked with about economic development. We put together this survey. It took way too long to do it, but we did do it. Um, and yeah, that's pretty much what they said. They wanted small coffee shops. They wanted to leave the town's footprint with farms and open land

as much as possible. There was not a whole appetite for changing our zoning to add in on the 3A corridor um businesses that would be probably little businesses that would use existing houses to put in a coffee shop or a restaurant. Um there was that was pretty much the only appetite people had. So way back in the 80s, early 80s. That's why the zoning is the way it is. We we zoned it. We put it before the people to zone the southern part of the town the way it is and the northern part of the town the way it is and leave everything in the middle the way it is. The way it is

and that's residential. And that's what that's what we did. People who responded to the survey and even though for the number of citizens we have it didn't seem like a huge response. the Nasha Regional Planning Council thought that we got a very good response for our survey, you know, percentage- wise. So, he was very happy with that and and it was overwhelmingly to leave the zoning basically where it is. So, we were, you know, it's not it's not not a good way to bring in a lot of businesses for all the reasons we just stated. Y and the zoning that they did here back then, they did a good job. They did a really good job. It holds up. It's held up

and it's held up the the the fact that it's good. It's held all this time, the test of test of time has been been awesome. We did that in the early 80s. It was well done. Yeah. So, when you look at the same time they did Albuquerque.

Yeah. Albuquerque. So, I mean there's nothing to do with this, but originally and I we hired um we had the town hired this company to lay out Albuquerque and they actually had it going over. So, when when you get to Pinerest, we kind of went to we went straight, but they designed it to go right and it was going around Rocky Hill. It was never going to get built, never ever going to get built um the way that they designed it. And uh so we straightened it out. We developed all that. Myself and my father-in-law developed most of Albuquerque and um that's when we got it where it is today to Paige.

We had it redone. Yeah. Diane, have we looked into I think the first question is whether or not the town can actually buy the land to flip it and resell it like don't we have they don't have to buy it for like a municipal purpose? So I don't know. Um I don't know. And that's what or exploratory is something those are some of the questions that we need to find out the answers to. Um I believe that we can but I would want to know.

I think that's yeah I mean I don't think I mean the town can buy it for sure but I think somewhere and I don't know the answer either. There would have to be some municipal purpose for the town buying it because the town isn't a real estate developer to Rick said. So I I think that's a very important piece of information that we'll need to know because if we buy it and we have to use it for municipal purpose like what is that municipal purposes? Is it conservation? Is it developing an SAU building? Is it developing a town office, a town park? Those are all municipal purposes. But to buy and flip it, I am not sure that's something that we can do. I think you would have to have you like Manchester, they they have a a board. Yeah.

Economic development. It's a quad. Yeah. They have a separate arm of the of the city that where they can go out and buy land to do that for develop type things. No, they that's what I'm saying. I don't think I see. So if we can't do that, that's puts us on a completely different path like a redevelopment authority or something. Yeah. But then they wouldn't fall into the priority of people who can buy it. Right. So we So do that from the state. if it's a term the town cannot buy it unless we're buying it for municipal purpose then it goes to New Hampshire housing and then from there to regular jo which could be what Rick was talking about but that would take time to set that up and to do all that stuff.

So that's a little bit of a nuance that we need to really make sure we know. And they said it would take him a year to get this ready to to go before the governor's council, get it all appraised and get get it all squared up. It would. Yeah. Well, that's kind of sad. Well, if you did buy it for a municipal purpose, um, let's just let's assume that that's all you can do, right? What do you all see? I mean, what are you missing in town that you think that what's realistic? Money. What's realistic? That infrastructure. Yeah. Wow.

Well, I think the people pretty much spoke about spending a lot of money because they've turned the various projects down that we're up for warrant articles. Am I right about that? I mean, like schools and so forth, they don't haven't backed the police department. Yeah. But even if we did buy it for municipal purpose because we had to I think going back to what Rick said what Letha said development of these particular pieces of land except for the one the 12 and the eight on the other side

I believe will be very challenging will be very expensive once you start filling in wetlands you're pay making payments to the ARM fund you're getting into a whole bunch of very very expensive just the development cost alone I think could be significant you'd have to come up the just the engineering is just the engine just to survey it engineer figure out what you're going to do is going to be anywhere between four and 5,000 an acre. Yeah, I was going to say this is a $100,000 job right here if you brought in a survey engineer easily. Four to five four to four to 5,000 an acre.

So you're going to you need a half a million dollars to in something close to approval. So, let's look at the mission statement that the selectmen have given us. Jay, can you bring that one up? You want to Are you good? You want to plug it in? No, you can. You can do it, can't you? It's right in the Yeah, I got portal since you already 30 windows open. Hold on. I mean, if your intent was to leave it as natural as possible, walking trails and things in it. I mean, that's, you know, that's

that would be beautiful, but I think there'd be quite a bit of of objection um by some of our constituents that we didn't use a commercial area for commercial purpose. I've heard objections to any more um conservation land being obtained in Thail. Yeah. um from some people. I think uh just quickly I don't think we can buy it unless it's for a municipal purpose. Okay. You'd have to set up a different a development organization of the 31.3. Yeah, there's stuff.

Well, that's very sad. I I didn't even that didn't even cross my mind that we couldn't do that. But that's why we have a lawyer here. You were each picked for so many great things that you're all easy to do that you all are so good at. Um, you all were picked by me to to come in and to try and brainstorm what we can do rather than turn that land over to New Hampshire housing. Um, because of the the atmosphere in conquered right now is to build everything that they can to change our zoning. It's um it's really come down from them that they want less restrictions to to build in towns. And in some ways that's great, but in some ways when you don't have an infrastructure

to support it, then you're in trouble. But if I'm if I'm New Hampshire housing and I'm looking at this that you either have to have a lot of road going through here, um it's I I don't I see them cherrypicking uh along 102. Okay, we'll go along there on both sides and I see maybe the 38 acres depending on how far that far east water area comes down. But otherwise, you got to build roads in there and that's I mean it's so cost prohibitive. I don't see them doing that.

But so so if you look at the 38 acres um right above it is the 55 plus community. Mhm. If you look at the amount of blue on the 55 plus community um lot, y that's more blue per acre than there is on the 38 lot. All right. So, they were able to put in, you know, a bunch of houses and stuff there. Um so, you could, you know, and they have roads that goes to 3A. You could probably envision something of that size at least I would think possibility of putting in you know that type of housing there. Oh the 38 acre piece is the best piece on the whole thing.

Right. So you think so over the 12 and the eight but so I'm just saying so housing could go in there. Um, I think that's the only other than other than it being conservation, I think it's the only thing that could go in there because the So is the So will when the state sells it though, are they going to allow the housing to cherrypick as Letha said like you know just pick that side and not buy the whole parcel? I think they can. I think they can. I absolutely think they can because I think in the same way that we would opt to pass or

Right. So, um, but then what happens to the chunk that isn't desirable? The state will still be owning it because nobody they'll just leave it. No, they're going to sell it. They'll sell it to somebody. They'll sell it to somebody. So, they'll just lower the price until somebody buys it. Yeah. They'll they'll sell it. They don't They don't They don't want to keep Yeah. They don't want to be in the landowning business, right? No. The houses they'll put on the market. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Of course. Yeah.

They'll go on the market. Um, so shattered dreams. Um, I want to talk about the mission statement that the selectmen have given us. I'm going to read it because kind of finding that out. We have to decide what we want this committee to do. Do we want to oversee what happens? Um, do we want to look at possibly? I know that um I talked to the Piscatagua Land Conservatory uh conservancy um trust and they are already working with Hudson to save some of it for conservation and they would be very interested in coming in and talking to about conserving some of that as well. So let's read it. It's the circumvential highway exploratory committee is charged with evaluating the disposition of parcels formally acquired by the New Hampshire Department of Transportation as part of the now dissolved circumvential highway layout. With the town holding the right of first refusal on these properties, the committee will assess each parcel's suitability for municipal acquisition, conservation, or return to the private market guided by Lichfield's master plan, current zoning ordinances, and the long-term interests of the community. The committee will identify and recommend uses that strengthen Lichfield's tax base, preserve its rural character, support economic development consistent with existing commercial and commercial/ind industrial zoning, and protect protect environmentally sensitive lands, including wetlands and wildlife corridors. Where appropriate, the committee will explore opportunities for mixed juice, village size, or open space development that reflects the values expressed by residents, including trail um trail connectivity, river access, conservation, and smallcale commercial growth. The committee will engage with the select board, planning board, conservation commission, and other relevant town bodies, and will present findings and recommendations to the

select board to inform acquisition decisions, land use planning updates, and any necessary outreach to prospective buyers or developers. So, where does that put our committee? What can we actually do to help the town with this? I think we can look at well one the first goal is whether or not we see any of these possial for a municipal purpose and we do what would that be and then I think

second would be what would the town like to see that be if it goes into the hands of somebody else and I think that could be dictated by changes in zoning and like if we say we Not, you know, we think it's beneficial based on the master plan that these possibles be something that's not allowed within these two zoning districts or that it is allowed. Maybe no changes are made or maybe changes need to be made if we want that area to look a certain way. So, I'm just trying to go off memory. Why did this need a variance? Do you remember? Why did they put the housing there? Remember that's the trailer park?

Yes. because they were combining a lot doing they had two smaller lots and they were combining I think it was a subdivision thing they subdivided some of that I think that's what they need that and then they needed a variance I think for more houses not I can't remember okay I didn't know didn't know if it was because it was commercial I don't remember I don't I don't think so I don't think it was a use but it could have been I don't want to yeah I don't remember so I think we need to check to see if that if housing is even allowed in that area. So, New Hampshire Housing may not want to buy it if it's not housing isn't allowed in that district.

Okay. So, should we continue with that committee and and do some more exploratory work? Well, I think if you want to if I mean it probably isn't a whole lot to do till you finally find out where it's going, but when you know where it's going, then maybe to have an oversight on what's actually going to go in there to some degree. I mean, it's kind of redundant because that's kind of the planning board's job anyway, right? What about conservation? Should it be for conservation? Well, I just heard say that there wasn't much of an appetite in town.

Oh, no. I don't know about in town. I know that there are some people in town who who disagree with using getting any more conservation. So, the land conservation people we have to we have to buy it in order for us to put it in land conservation. Isn't that right, Laura? Yeah. I'm sorry. If the land municipal use can be donated, but I know but by the state but we'd have to buy it first. Yeah. Right. You can buy and have the land cons manage it and help manage it and give them an easement over it because we own some land in town that conservation doesn't doesn't manage it. Yeah. Okay.

All right. Yeah. I mean I I So we have access to Jay. Um we have access to the DOT. He said he'd be glad to come in and meet with us and we have the ability to do a sitewalk. Does anybody have any desire what we should do next? Doesn't matter to me. What do you think, Jay?

I'd like to understand the the the domino effect of if this then that, if that, then this. you know, I mean, if we could clarify the question um that Laura is saying that okay, it's got to be a municipal use and if it's not then then it goes to New Hampshire housing. So, what does that mean? They can only build housing on it and then or they and or they can cherrypick and then at that point it might go out to any one of a number of commercial developers. And currently in that in those zones, right, we're we've got the SC zone and the SEI. So on the east side of

this one. Yeah, the east side. Yeah, that's highway commercial. Yeah, but we don't actually the industrial is is is more north of there, right? the the SCI where it says on the map. So, is that part of this or is or is this lower? Is this It's lower. Wait, it's lower. Okay, then I'm I'm reading it right on the town line. Are you saying the H? Which which parcel? Yeah, the Okay, the HC. I didn't see it. So, the Yeah, the other side of 102 is this HC. Okay.

And then it's SC over here. near the 38. Yeah, everything is HC actually. Yeah, for the most part. So, there's quite a variety of uses allowed in there. I mean, at one point on the planning board, we talked about the mixeduse village overlay down, you know, um that too. And from the reason I asked Rick why Baron's failed, but Reggie was able to come in and do a mixeduse over by um St. Francis and the reason was the the size of the building that Bar was going to put in.

Yeah. When they wanted to go in, there was too much wetlands and they they they couldn't get their 50,000 square foot building in without too much wetlands. There's 30 acres there, but there's 15 acres of wetland. Wow. that 15 acres on that home. Yeah. Yep. And it's not like it's all in one spot. It's all there fingers and Right. And the state actually shut the shut down bounds. It's the state that came in. I think it was the EPA. I I think I think they Well, I I think it was because of the wetlands. Yeah. But it was but I wasn't but they had gotten the permits from

according to the sellers they had gotten the permit barons had gotten the permits from the state all right but it was the EPA federal that oh wetlands yeah wetlands EPA yeah that said no and they weren't able to get past that right fishing game even having even having like a you know groundwater use expert come in and look at it and say this isn't really under wet but you know once it's designated that way it's very hard to change Yeah, the the toughest thing on wetlands is getting through the fishing game. So that's the toughest. It's not You can go to the wetlands bureau, you find fishing game, you're done.

Yeah. Very difficult. You you as a developer, we do everything we can to avoid wetlands. Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah. And they that's what they want. So they make it so miserable that that's what you try to do, right? But in some cases, they also can't stop you from developing your property. So if you need a wetland crossing, they can't say no, but they can make it awful miserable, but they can't say no. You you have a right to develop your property. So if you have a brook going through the middle of it, you can you can do it. Just cost Yeah. Yeah. And it depends on the quality,

you know, quality of the wetland and has a big parting it Rick on on this map the I guess it's number four the aerial view you seem to be more so when you're looking at the wet you know where you have the red dots on 102 where the houses are. Y and then you look to the left what is the white dot that's like right on that right on the line? Yeah. No what is that look up right there? Yeah. What is that? That's wetland. That is wetland. Oh, that's wetland. So is the grayish with the blue running through it. So So that's like the uh So if you go to this map Yeah.

So all this is wetland. The big wetland finger. This is this is wet land. And the So beautiful. So when I say the 38, but that other little white dot didn't seem different to look different from the aerial view that the you know this dot it looked like maybe it was something else. So it's no different. So when this when this project got approved, wetlands regulations were totally different. That's what I was going to ask today. Annale Farm. So when that when that approved now, so it's going to be harder to keep a footprint like that on this 38 will be less and everything else. Okay. The density will probably be the same. It's just what you can

what you what you're going to be able to fill your setbacks and all that stuff is Oh, who does anybody is anybody familiar with like can you get rid of uh housing like New Hampshire housing if they have but you can build Well, you can but I mean obviously they're trying to find a economic way to build housing that they can afford to rent for a less money. So are they willing to put in that kind of money to build housing where there going to have a lot enough density to make sense to make it financially viable they're not making a killing on it. Yeah. So they well I know they don't care about making a killing but I mean the delivered profit in there would be

but they have to but they would have to assess that with the new current wetlands restrictions. Oh yeah they would still have to follow the same rules and they won't get uh special allowances because they're New Hampshire. And that's what I was I asked Rick that as well. I was like are there special like handshakes that they can do set back from the river is more nowadays that we no longer have an effect that allowed 455 and older communities which allowed for increased density. Okay. I see. So I mean the reg. So the whole thing is different right? Okay. Totally different. So that 55 communities was put in before we had the commercial zone. No it was it that was there. We always had that. They must have got a variance, I'm guessing,

right? Because I can't see how it's allowed. It's not, you know, housing isn't listed as a They probably got a variance back then. I'm guessing that they But I don't remember. Or it could have been the housing for older persons were allowed in certain districts that were not owned residential. So they sold halfway through building it. Like one developer came in and built half of it. That's what it was. Then another developer came in and built the other half. Right. The first one housing for older persons was allowed because we have the one at the north end on every one of the town and then they think about y um and New Hampshire housing doesn't build like senior citizen low rent places or do they they don't build them they they finance

they manage them or whatever they finance them. So the the New Hampshire housing doesn't they don't Yeah they don't send they're not the builder they they finance it. people and they they put people together to put it together to get it. Yeah. Yeah. And they have a probably a long list of people waiting for low rent situations. Uh I mean there's a lot of subsidized housing out there. It's whether you want to go if as a developer it's a lot of a lot of paperwork. A lot of red tape. A lot of red tape. Yeah. To work with New Hampshire housing as a renter as a Didn't they just put a big one in up in Raymond? I don't know. I'm not sure. They could have. What was that,

Raymond? Did they just put a Did New Hampshire Housing just put in a new I don't know. They could have. They were all over the place. Yeah. There there's a lot of money. Marian, if you look on the screen there, I got something up my sleeve here. Mhm. That looks like a sand pit. That's a sand pit. Okay. That's what I thought. But if if you look closely, let me zoom in. Mhm. So there is open water right here. Oh yes, I see that. Right. Yep. There is a sand pit here. Yeah. So that's July 29th of 2025. And if I kind of go back through it. Sorry, Rick. Where do you say water on the right? Sand. You say the sand pit.

On the left. Right there at the top. Oh, it's sandy. It's sandy. But watch this. If I keep going back, sandy. It's going to turn into a lake right there. Oh wow. What year was that? That was in 2024. Is it dried up? So we have lakefront housing in this ceiling. Wow. And it go but yet ironically look where the water was before and then it's okay. Dried out. Yeah. Just one year of ATV activity out there. Yeah. It could have been just a really heavy rain and you know the depression filled in. That's interesting. Thank you. I don't use the land. That's why. Yeah. And

yeah, I the only thing I can think of that might be useful to put in that area would be like again metal buildings like he was talking about, but uh smaller smaller segmented buildings for smaller contractors, you know, that need a Yeah. like a co-op type situation. Well, yeah. I'm thinking like a a smaller electricians or plumbers that need a the workshop. A workshop. Yeah. Affordable lawn care. You know, all these people that are looking for smaller spaces. My quick review looking at some of the zonings. It doesn't look like a lot of fingers through there. That area down the bottom,

but when I asked earlier if New Hampshire Housing could build housing in a commercial zone, I was told that they could. Not if it's not if it's not permitted. It all depends what the boundaries are. So, so this whole piece is part of the commercial zone and and houses aren't allowed by quick I mean I'm trying to look on my phone that's what I'm seeing. I mean so New Hampshire housing wouldn't have any interest in it then. Well, they may they could ask for a variance. Oh, okay. Gotcha. So, would zoning be able to to to say no? They would have because of the mobile home park there. I'm thinking that would that that was a variance for the to put those houses. I don't the modular ones that they're putting in now.

No. So, the mobile home parks. Yeah. Right. But when they did that, I'm thinking that that you gave a variance for to build those because for the newer half of it was um that could be for the new mobile uh for the modular that's going. Yeah. That's why I said that. I mean, I'm going off memory, but I don't think that I was It could be. So, why don't we why don't we do this? Why don't you go back to your committees, talk about what we've talked about here tonight,

um talk about what other information we want to accumulate and see whether or not we want to meet next month or if we want to wait until we get some more information from DOT. But there is definitely some possibilities of getting um of getting the um grants to buy some of that area for conservation if that's something that conservation is interested in. Um for sure the Piscatua is already working with some areas. So you may want to go over what is out there and and what it could be used for. Beautiful park. I don't know. Um, you should definitely look at it though to see if there's areas that you are interested in. It seems like it's too big an area for us to walk.

The 110 acres. Yeah, I might go on there and just check it out. I'd be interested in taking in I'm not I mean with my cane? No, thank you. The walker? No, I don't think so. My mobility is not that. Do you want to walk it and and give us come back? Yeah, I wouldn't mind. back and tell us not huffing through the woods. Is anybody else interested in walking? What about you? You're strapping in me. What's that? I'm going to say no because of time constraints. But you could go in on the other side by Elurn there and skirt that wetland and get out into this area pretty easy. Yeah. What's kind of interesting is Alurn High School property comes in the litfield sign.

You look at the map there's like Yeah, right here. Yeah, right there. Yeah. I I could be wrong. So there's another piece of property that bisects that line too. I think the property was there long before they drew the line on the bottom line. I was thinking of the 35 ft of um so are these houses existing in Hudson. Maybe not 3A. There's a lot of housing in here. That's you know what I could do? is if we do walk here and then they had that whipper will estate that 360 kids that went to high school and I can Google street walk up here and then when we come in here people that don't walk ends there so you would come in from this way. Okay. Okay. Um I'm just saying I'm thinking there's no traffic.

I love it. I think you should absolutely do it. I think you I didn't think you needed me to say yeah. I was saying if we walk it. I have this I have this GoPro 360 camera that I use for work and we can That's what I was going to I was going to say because I have mobility. I couldn't be walking on uneven terrain like that. But you could walk. But I would like to see a picture, you know, some pictures of it. So that'd be great. We can create a slideshow. Yep. Um I'd like to open up for public input because I do see that we have someone here. Would you like Do you have something to say or did you just Yeah. Uh specifically around that property? Can you come on up and can you tell us your name and where your address is? Um, my name is Kelly Malakias. I own the property at 19 Charles Benfra Highway.

Okay. So, I actually have a right away with DOT to get to my property. Okay. So, obviously my questions is when this all go through, who's going to own my rightway? Do I have ability to buy my right away? So, do you have bought the Christmas tree farm? No. Okay. Yeah, that's another question. Is it this little thing? No. Is it this one right here? Yeah. Uh, so can I go there? So, I own this property. Oh, okay. So, I have a 75 foot front edge right away all the way to the end of my property with this with

the copy of the de Oh, yeah. That's not square. Oh, I wonder if they're going to market the rightway along with it. I mean, that that would make it accessible. The back lot goes right up to that 50 acres, right? Yeah. But it goes under that doesn't look like it's part of the this piece of so your easement on a permission. What's the easement say? It's a uh deed right away on my property. Oh, you're also Yeah. But right now

doesn't matter who owns it. You have a right. You always will have a right to go go over because they gave it to you. Yeah. What's in your deed? They they can't take it away. They can't take it away from you. Oh, that's not going anywhere. Yeah. That's not No. No. You You've never That's easy. That one's easy. I just didn't know cuz you know you hear that they're no longer going to own, right? Well, so that's not Industrial Drive, right? I see. Is it called Industrial Drive? No, but they don't have a name. Okay. No, it's the driveway that you go into the tree farm. It is, right? The tree farm has front land. They use that. I have it in there. They're not allowed to use it, but they use it that. So, but they drive in that way.

Yeah, they're not supposed to. Yeah. So, there's a land dispute going on here as well, which is why I have the letter from Yeah. the tree farm. Oh, okay. Um I sent a copy of the letter to the tree farm, but that'll never They never can take that away from you. It's a right It's a legal rightway. So, there it's in there as a legal rightway. You go to Can you put tax map there? Show it. Yep. They're using her right away, right? This must be where she's, right? So, like anytime I have a problem, I message do right away and I usually deal with them directly. So, who's going to own that property?

Obviously, I wanted the option to buy my driveway. Yeah. But if that's not the case, who's going to own that and who do I go by? That's a good question. So, it's it says here that the The last easement temporary use agreement in place was with the previous owner. So I don't know is it I don't know if it's in your deed or not. If it's it says temporary use agreement. So for what? What are you reading it? Uh I don't this just this letter that someone's some attorney wrote to you. Oh the letter from DOT saying that uh Pauline used to have a ement poly y y with dot which got cancelled once he sold it. Oh okay. So that's Paul used to own the tree.

Oh, that's Oh, that's the polyamir. Okay. I just I wasn't sure if that was you. If you read it the whole thing, it's So Noel's It used to be Noel's. It's actually now um the North Pole Christmas trees. Correct. They just haven't changed their name yet. Paul used to have a lease with them. Yeah. To be able to use that. And once he sold it, they did not renew the lease because of my complaints. And then uh the new owner just uses without the lease. where you wrote it. What you wrote it over there, read it over there is a letter from DOT to my lawyer specifying that they have nothing active. Okay. Sorry, I wasn't sure. I I thought it was in terms of yours. But you have It's on my deed. Okay. Okay. All right. And that's never going away.

Sure. We don't. So, yeah. So, the letter that we got from That's my deed from North Pole Christmas Trees is they they're interested in buying it. Great. I'm into not necessarily. You're out too. I was going to say I don't want to That's a good question. No, but like but that rightway goes back past her property. I think this is between my rightway, right? What's that? The Christmas tree could not buy my rightway. No, they could buy the property. We don't know that. And you you still have access over it. You'd still have access, but they would too. on the tax map that is showing as its own sliver almost its own right.

So it is a parcel. I wonder how many other little weird things we're going to find that occurred because of this must have. And that little piece of land you're going to go. We used to go poor Will it over there and go hunting over there. There's plenty of ducks and animals and fish. That would make that piece of property pretty usable. I don't think she has a problem. But when she sells it, that's a good thing. They sell it. But they're going to put the right here. build it. Right. Back here is that's that 50 acre piece. There are here it is. Like here's the right here is the access right. Yeah. This is the state right here. So do you landlock them by not allowing them to use it? Do you landlock them?

Is there parts of their property they can't reach because they build they had a drive that's empty. Wait a second. She just answered. Is there is there areas that you She is landlocked like her parcel is landlocked. There's no street frontage anywhere. She only has This is um right of way to go into 3A in front of her. Nothing behind her. It's right next to this road. So, is there another way in for the tree farm? Oh, this was Burches. There's no other way in. They have they use that as

I didn't know them. I know Cherry Burch. I'd say this is probably an issue for the DOT or where would you where would this be? That's pretty interesting. Well, like to Rick's point though heard she can't be landlocked. She has to be able to get across it. So I mean that's you don't have to worry about that. But what she's wondering is control over what happens to the rightway that's going out there. He has the right. She doesn't want him to use it and he has to let you use it. I don't think we're in a position to comment on that. I don't think we are either. I think we're stepping way out of our

think we are too. I think this would be a DOT. Indeed, we have to look at a subdivision plan. We have to look at title issues. So, where should she go? She should go to an attorney and her attorney to somebody to do a title search to see how that rightway came into an exist. We don't need a title search. Look, it's very specific. But we don't have any control over that, right? I I am not even going to comment on what that is. And I don't think this committee should comment on what that is because we don't know. Good point. We don't know. Um and we're going to give that same information to the tree farm. Okay. Is that you both need to to do some investigative work on your own. That is not something that will be controlled by this committee. Okay. Nor would we want to be involved most likely. Yeah.

Yeah. And we won't uh sell to one person behind other person's back or We aren't selling anything. We're not doing it. We're not selling anything. And it'll be well published. Yeah, it will. It would be a public and it won't be in a hurry evidently. Nope. Nope. It'll be advertised. Sure. Oh, yeah. But you just need to deal with the state. Yeah. You need to talk to DOT. The back of that that's from the DOT. The back of that has kind of the process that they're going to go through. also has a bunch of contact information in there. It's not part of the red line. So, yeah, it's not it's not it's not even within what we were really discussing, is it? I drew I drew the red line. Oh, okay.

Should be an S on that little piece. So, that that strut because that that changes a lot because that's access. He's referring it to it as industrial drive. The DOT property known as Industrial Drive at MLBU I91 3.3 313 acres 19 Charles Bankrupt Highway. I mean that makes the rest of this 110 acre a lot more accessible. Yes. Accessible. you can get all the way to the over there by them.

But I don't want to act like that 1978 plan is a valid plan but wasn't properly vested. So that could just that's just a plan on record. It was never vested, never acted upon, subject to additional zoning changes, different regulations. So I would not really give too much weight to that 1978 plan as far as what can be done there. Spoken just like a good attorney. I was I was looking at the plan. I was looking at ownership tonight, Laura. So, would you not I was looking at ownership, not the plan. So, would you not consider that strip?

According what to the tax map right here, I just clicked on that strip and it does come up with a property ID number 3.1 acres owned by New Hampshire DOT. So, does that fall in the purview of this? It's they're gonna have to in those 58 they're gonna have to deal with it. So it does fall in the under their purview. We would assume I wouldn't assume anything 3.13 I was it I public talk about any of that in public. If it does then that change

because that makes this center. So that is listed in the property. It makes the centerpiece what it's valued at makes it different 16,900 bucks and I think the prudent course. So it's it's in the list for property. So I think speculation I mean even that's what she should do. Well even for us we're wondering about what that uh of the land is there's any value to that for the town to purchase for a municipal reason for access purposes. I think a prudent question, a prudent cost factor would be to inquire of NHDOT. What's going to happen to that right away?

We can do that, but not for our own purposes. For the purposes of discussion, whether or not that land that's at the back is something that is developable. What's going to happen to that right away? So, it is right to the town. Is that one right there? What are they going to do with that right away? But it is part of it. It's listed on the inventory of So, it's going to be sold separate lot. So, it's right away. It's what we're discussing. That's correct. Yeah. So, but that right away in this lot, that right away goes to that lot. Guaranteed. Yeah. Yeah. And it has nothing to do with the 110 acres.

Mhm. No, that's a 50 acre piece, right? 50. It looks like there's a a separate lot there. Oh, I see the purple because it's purple. SEP. Yeah, it's a separate lot. Yeah, the 50 acre 50 acre peep right. Yeah, separate lot on there too. That is um 2631 130 50 industrial drive. That would be an interesting equation. Um sorry, it's um line number three. That needs to be tabled. So there are four ways we need to stop talking about it. We shouldn't talk about it. Yeah, we probably shouldn't talk about it. We should throw the table up. It's

interesting. There are there are four ways to get to that 110 acres, 110 acres. Forget about the Derry Road Route 102 side because of all the um wetlands and stuff, but there is a right ofway through the residential development in Hudson. There's one right ofway there or excuse me, there's Yeah, one right ofway there and an access point on the other side from Hudson. What do you think off Adams Drive? Yeah, there's two. There's one on the left end on the west end and then there's a little sliver 50footer up there.

There's two there and then you can get to it from 3A and then the fourth one is the piece that we're talking about. Yep. If we were to combine those the 110 with the 34 acres. Yeah.

Interesting.

Boy, the public input started a flurry of activity.

Well, it brought to together two things. Okay. Is there any other public input? Seeing none, I close public input at 7:30. And I don't think action items other than me going back to the select board and telling them what we have found out and letting everybody kind of digest what we've talked about and going back to conservation, going back to planning, discussing it in your in your boards I think is important. um and then see what we want to do about our next meeting. But we can

I think we need the state to get a little bit farther down the down on their process to get get these things appraised. I can call DOT and see what where they are. They they had said that they would take up to a year. Yep. I just don't want to be caught by surprise then all of a sudden there's something big has happened and changed the town without I think it's important for us to consider if any of those 193 acres would be beneficial for a municipal purpose and I think if you brought that back I'm going to bring that back to the select board yeah

for them to see what they think as far as it goes to our master plan and or even the planning board you know are any of those you know strike a chord for any of our long range goals for the town. Okay. And I think once we know that, if everybody comes back and says no and we can't buy it like we I think we've somewhat determined and flip it, then I think the next question is going to become if the town doesn't want it, what do we want to see there and what control do we have over that? So, would we do another survey or would we use the one that we did for

that was a that was a broad survey. That was like a really big survey. It was done at um was done all over the place, but it was also done at election at a very big election. I think we need to determine what's allowed there now. Yeah. In anticipation of the next meeting and I can do that. That's easy to say. So we can come back and be like this is what is allowed now under the existing ordinance. Maybe dubtail that into what the results were from the economic development committee and say do we need to make changes? Do we want to? you know, how does that play into the master plan and go from there. Okay. And then you'll be coming back with with the conservation your conservation meeting is the next Thursday. No, next week.

Yep. Next Thursday. A week from tomorrow. Yeah. Well, that sounds good. One other question that I think just for maybe internal discussions for the board of selectman is that right of way you know if it was to be offered to um the town you know just deed it without any monetary consideration then the town would take it over because it would be a street something the town wants to do because if not you know who's going to buy like I mean there are some issues that I think the town just needs to kind of have their eye on moving forward. Okay.

Can you just send me a little email and I'll I'll present it at our next meeting. Anybody else have anything for the Slack board on this? Do we think we need a vice chair at this point? No, probably not yet. Because I don't think we're going to be that much of a working committee until we until the state does something. Until the state does something. Okay. I want to thank you all for being here. You are handpicked for all of your abilities and every single one of you has had great input um to this meeting. And I'm going to ask for a move uh motion to adjourn. I'll make it. Second.

Second. Show of hands. I I We all We all unanimous. Unanimous. Thank you very much. And we're done for now. Um, please direct um questions to us. We'll do our best to hear it out. Have a nice night, Lichfield.