Common Council - Regular Meeting

Good evening. The time is now 6.33 PM. I will call the August 31, 2026 Special Meeting of the Common Council of the City of Lawrence to order. Please stand and join us for the Pledge of Allegiance.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you. The next agenda item is roll call members and the termination of quorum. Let the record reflect that we have nine members present and that we do have a quorum. This meeting has been properly noticed in accordance with Indiana's open door policy. And copies of the agenda are located at the back of the room. The next agenda item on the agenda is unfinished business. There are two related proposals for consideration tonight, so we'll hear them together as one combined public hearing. The first proposal is proposal number four, 2026, and the second proposal is proposal number five, 2026. Madam Clerk, could you please read the title of each proposal into the record?

Proposal number 4, 2026, an ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Lawrence, Indiana, repealing ordinance number 4, 2025, and terminating the municipal will tax and motor vehicle license excise surtax imposed thereunder.

Thank you, Madam Clerk. Pursuant to the Common Council's rules, as the presiding officer, I am directing that proposals number four and five be eligible for possible amendment and adoption, even though this is the second reading of those proposals. We will now proceed with the public hearing. Madam Clerk, has the proposal been properly advertised and noticed for the hearing?

It has.

Thank you, Madam Clerk. The public hearing is now open. My bad. Council, before we begin, I'd like to ask for a motion for the following rules governing the public hearing. Each individual speaking in favor or against the proposal shall exceed no more than six minutes. This is the double. We usually do three, but since they're combined, I'm adding the times together. The combined total time for all individuals in favor is 30 minutes. The combined total time for all individuals against is 30 minutes. Do I have a motion to approve those rules? So moved. Thank you, Councillor Jennings. Do I have a second?

Second.

Thank you. Was that Councillor Robinson? Thank you. Any further discussion? We'll now proceed with the vote. All those in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. All those opposed, signify by saying nay. All right, the rules have passed. Anyone wishing to speak tonight, please stand. Raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Yeah. Thank you. First, is there a representative from the city of Lawrence who would like to speak regarding the proposals? All right, the floor is now open for individuals in support of the proposals.

Are you going to let the City of Lawrence person speak?

I did. No one came up.

Oh, she was getting up.

Oh, yes, please, if you, yeah. I'm sorry, Mr. Rapp, we'll get to you, I promise. I don't understand what you're doing. The administration's going to take their time. I asked and I wasn't sure, so I... We're going to go with the administration first, and then we'll do the public comment.

You're changing the rules.

You're interrupting the meeting.

All right. Thank you.

Good evening, everyone. Thank you for allowing me to speak. Amber Finley, Corporation Counsel for the City of Lawrence. And so the first ordinance that is in front of you or proposal that's in front of you is repealing the current will tax and excise surtax that is currently in place. Why is that happening? With House Enrolled Act 179, I believe, that prevents double taxation If there's a county will tax and exciser tax that's been implemented and also a city will tax and exciser tax that's been implemented, that is prevented from those two, the county and the city, from implementing a double taxation. So only one can be put into place.

House Bill 179? Yeah, 179. 179? Yes. Yeah, okay. Enrolled Act. Okay. Mm-hmm.

And so with those will pass or did pass, it did pass.

Yes, it did pass. And so, but that would only apply, um, if you, so say you, um, adopted a will tax and excise surtax ordinance in the city of Lawrence that is effective as of January one, 2027. That's when that prevention of the double taxation applies. And so, because the city of Lawrence, adopted our will tax and excise surtax effective January 1, 2026, if we were not to do anything, we would be looking at a double taxation for individuals who are registering their vehicles in the city of Lawrence. And so they would pay both the county and the city as things stand now. So you say, well, why are we repealing it? Would that then make the county go forward? And so that is why we've, in addition to that, to repealing that one, we're asking you to adopt one that would go into effect for 2027 so that we would meet that new statute. The city's will tax and excise surtax would be the one that would apply to the individuals who are registering their vehicles in Lawrence. Does that make sense?

So what we're talking about is the original wheel tax that we put in place, which is like $25, I think.

So the exciser tax, and when I say exciser tax, that's the passenger vehicles, right? That's $25. The wheel tax, and so what you would think of with that would be your semis, that's $40. Okay.

For semis?

Correct. What about passenger?

Semis and other larger vehicles.

Passenger vehicles are excise surtax. Only? Only, 25. So you pay either or, depending on what type of vehicle you have. So primarily we hear it just referred to as a will tax, but it's actually a will tax and an excise surtax.

So we only pay $40 and not, I mean $25 and not a $60. That's where I'm mixed up. I thought it was two taxes, so I thought. $65 was the amount, but it sounds like it's not.

No, so it would be excise surtax of $25. So that's where it stands currently.

But that only raises $43,000 for the city of Lawrence.

You're talking about from those? The $25,000. The rates that you're receiving, right.

So we're giving up a million dollars?

No, we can talk. I think Terry has the numbers.

When we talked, you had two numbers.

So we're required. So if you recall back with that ordinance from last year, It also established two funds. One is your will tax fund. Remember, semis, all of that. And then the other is your excise surtax fund. So you have two separate funds that have to be established. Correct.

And the excise got a million in it, proposed to get, right now we've got 606, something like that, proposed to have a million bucks at the end of the year. Correct. But on the excise, the $25, I thought we were only going to be getting $43,000. Yes. So that's what I'm concerned about. Right. No one gave me numbers to tell me what this action, how it affects the dollars and the cents.

Right. And so the numbers that you were provided, that 43 and that.

Previous, that's today.

Right, today. And so then looking at if you were to include, say, I think that Indianapolis proposed perhaps $3 million. is the number that they were thinking, and I'm not sure if that's just excise. That they would give to us. Right. Right. Because there's been an increase in the county rate, right? So it's gone to 100. So if you were to register a vehicle in the city of Lawrence, and I say that because it's not simply residents, it's also business owners. Say you own a company, you have semis, and they're registered here in the city of Lawrence. In addition to people who live here and are registering their vehicles here. you would be paying right now because we already have an ordinance that is in place that has adopted a municipal um will tax and an excise surtax they would be paying 125. so 125 exciser tax and then with the wheel tax the county is currently 240 and those are both flat rates so 100 flat fee for the exciser tax and 240 for the municipal, or excuse me, for the wheel tax for the county. So adding that to hours, which is 40, that puts you at 280 for that wheel tax.

If you got the big car, the big truck.

If you have a semi, certain other trucks over certain sizes.

What about a church bus? A church bus?

Let me, I'll tell you exactly.

Churches get exempt from any of that. They are exempt. So what I'm saying is the average citizen, everybody in here, the average person who drives a car, passes a car, will get charged $25.

If things were to stay as they are now, in 2027, they would be charged $125 because they would be paying both the county and the city. And because, and that's because. the new law doesn't apply to us just yet.

I'm trying to get the angle that the new law not applying to us might be beneficial to us. We get $3 million instead of $43,000. That's a, because we're going to give up.

I mean, we're also talking about estimates. We want to keep in mind these are estimates.

But that's a big gap, though.

It's a big, it ain't a close estimate. I'm not trying to persuade you either way. Well, you should, because I'm voting. But I want to make you, I mean, but that's your decision to make. You represent the residents.

Well, based off the facts that you give me. Exactly. And I haven't got many facts, so your facts will persuade my vote. May persuade.

Right.

Well, it should enforce it or it should take facts. I make my decisions based on facts, not feelings. Absolutely.

You would have to take into consideration that individuals and companies or whomever, owners of vehicles who register a vehicle in the city of Lawrence, should things stay as they are, they would pay a $125 excise surtax.

I know that, but you're focusing on that. We all know that. That's a news clip. Right. I'm saying... Now we're in the mini-gritty. We represent the city and the city budget. First. First. And the people. But we've got to pull it all together.

Right.

Right? So the first question I had was, no one wants to double tax, but there's a reason why we did the will tax in the first place. Correct. Right? Correct. We have not had significant road projects. in a while because we don't have the money for the matching dollar for the community crossing grant. I want the community to know the decisions that we're weighing. So I give up a revenue stream, and so I want to make sure my facts are crossed, not crossed, okay? So I want to make sure, because I didn't realize this, and I don't think a lot of my counselors realize this. You have an excise tax. Correct. And currently, it's our current excise tax, and you have a will tax.

Correct.

The excise tax is for passenger vehicles. Correct. And it is a set 25 bucks.

For the city.

For right now, for us, what we got right now.

Correct.

For the will tax, that fluctuates. It's commercial vehicles and weights and all that, so it's not a flat deal.

No, the will is flat as well. So both the county and the city's rates are flat.

Flat 25, flat 40.

For the will tax, it's 240 for the county. That'll be in 2027, and it's 40 for the city currently. So today is 40 flat. Correct.

I'm not talking about the city. I'm saying, I mean, Indianapolis. I'm saying today.

Today for the city, yes.

Right now, we have a $25 excise, and we have a $40 will tax.

Correct.

Okay, what I'm trying to get the answer to is the 20, I want to make sure, the $25 excise excise tax raises approximately $1 million. The $40 will tax, make sure I don't have this flip, the $40 will tax estimate for this year currently $43,000. Correct. Okay. Now I want to make sure you listen right. Nobody knows for sure, but Indianapolis is telling us If we adopt their county plan and they have to split to give everybody in the county their share, we would be estimate $2.5 to $3 million. Why in the heck would I give up $3 million for $43,000? Please help me where I'm missing the gap without double taxing. Right. Because I would just take the county.

But the county is $100, right?

But it's going to give us $3 million so we can pave a road.

Oh.

There's the rub.

That's what I wanted to discuss with my counselors.

There's also, you know, deductions that come about as a result of when you take that money when it comes to CCMG grants and how those are all applied.

So what's the plan then to get a CCMG grant again on $43,000?

Our DPW director is on the call if you have any questions, specifically if you have any questions regarding that. There we go.

Can't you talk?

Yeah.

Hold on.

I'm here.

When they did you have to hear what I asked.

Yes, so the money that we earn from the excise tax the regular vehicle tax and the wheel tax goes against the $1,000,000 that we can request from and not for the CCMG so we got $3,000,000 if we went with Andy plan and we got $3,000,000 we wouldn't be able to apply for that. $1,000,000 grant from CTMG the way I understand it. Whatever money we collect an excise or wheel tax. Is left. That amount less the million that we can qualify for it. Does that make sense?

Yes. So how do you get to that with $43,000?

Well, there's another fund with a million. So you would have that matching, right? The million gets you to the $2 million if you get the grant.

Where's the other million coming from?

That's from the CCMG, right?

It's a matching. Where does our match come from?

The other fund. Remember you said there's a fund with $1 million in it.

That's the one we're giving up.

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Okay, let's jump right in. The excise tax raises $1 million.

And that's what's current. I just want to make sure that that's what's currently in the fund.

Excuse me. May I ask if they have something to contribute that will help to clarify this? Did they come up and tell us?

Terry's the one. Terry.

The one that we just initially was passed in 2025.

there's a total estimated for the whole year of 2026 was only 43 000 the way the ccmg grant works is that what they're telling us is if we had this will tax that we could still be able to apply for the ccmg grant but the way it actually happens is whatever monies that we actually collect from this tax will be deducted from the CCMG grant. So say they're gonna give us a million dollars and we collect 50,000, so now they're only gonna give us 950,000 as opposed to a million dollars.

So that's the way the CCMG grant work with the- So what you're saying is by collecting tax dollars from our citizens, it will not increase our allocation?

Right, it won't increase our allocation.

Because they take it away. Right, they take it away. Right, but they take it away from you because they say you got it already.

Right, and basically, yes.

Right, but if I pull it out of my general fund, they match it.

It doesn't come from the general fund, no.

Do you remember back when the NVH, they split the NVH, where you got to take half your NVH fund and put it in a restricted fund? Yep, the motor vehicle house. That's where we get our million dollars. highway fund yes there's restricted mvh fund that's where our money comes from for the ccmg for the ccmg it comes from the restricted well why haven't i had a ccmg money in three years two years we have you have it we have to be across man half the mvh fund no i'm so we got the community crossing grant classes every year yeah yes we've been paving this on there all over really i mean we've got projects every year But that comes from the NBA's restricted fund. Now, we can't touch it. That has to go to roads. It can't go nothing but to road repair.

Okay, here's what my concern is. I'm going to go back, y'all. Callers save a ton of money. And then we got a big match from Community Crossing.

That's when they made the MVH split. That's when you had to guarantee you had to spend half the MVH fund for road repair. That was done, I don't know, done.

Okay, that's what I'm saying. So you're teaching me something. Because I'm concerned about us giving up money And then I know the number one thing our constituents want are new roads. We have a very thin budget, and I'm just trying to make sure that by doing something that politically is right, I'm not putting you and your team at a disadvantage because we've got crumbling streets in our city, and I want to want Indianapolis all around us doing what they do, and we're over here crumbling.

I need to ask you, what do they do, huh?

Well, for their city. I'm not even talking about for us. I'm just saying I drive Indianapolis streets every day. I pull out my neighborhood. I don't pull out on a Lawrence Street to get me to work. I pull out on a county street. We're Unigov. That's the truth.

You pull out on Shalen?

I pull out on Shalen and 46th Street.

Those are Indianapolis thoroughfares.

Exactly. And those are streets that crumble and I almost get hit by a car.

And the city of Lawrence is not responsible for those roads. Exactly. That's the mindset we've got to tell the city. When it's a thoroughfare, we can't build it with our money. Exactly.

I know that. i get that but when it's county money the county can allocate because you always got to remember indianapolis in the county are one in the same So I don't want to get deep in the mud, but the bigger issue is Winding Ridge has crumbling streets. Our subdivisions have crumbling streets all throughout the city.

Well, I can tell you on the Winding Ridge side, because back before Collier, the inspectors didn't do their job. They didn't put the service on the roads. That's what happened.

But I need money to fix it. Whatever caused it, I need money to fix it. So you just gave me more reason to not be worried about giving up money. So that's what I'm... just concerned to make sure that we're clear on what we're doing well just be mindful we're not going to miss problems either so we're not going to miss how i have these problems or city or town we're all we're all crunching so well yeah i mean that's yeah i get that i'm just saying i want to make sure that we all up here know that what this action what kind of dollars is coming in so i just i'll leave it alone and i'll stop but i just want to make sure that i understand that if we do this We're going to just be getting, the city will only be, will be giving up the will tax portion or the excise tax portion.

You wouldn't be giving up either. You wouldn't be giving up either portion, right? You just wouldn't be getting the county's portion if you were to accept the proposal as presented.

So I would get the $25 wheel tax, I mean, excise. Correct. And the $40 wheel tax? Correct. So, but it's per vehicle, not both cars. That's the difference. When I said it was going to be $65, it's not. If you just have a passenger, it's $20. If you have $25, if you've got a big truck, It's $40. It could be $40.

So I can read to you specifically what the wheel tax is. Buses, recreational vehicles, semi-trailers, trailers with a declared gross weight of more than 9,000 pounds, and trucks and tractors with a declared gross weight of more than 11,000 pounds. So that is wheel, $40. $40. Across the board. And that $40 fee raised $40,000.

I've heard $43,000 and $48,000. Right.

The bigger fee has the little money.

Correct. Because you're thinking of how many semis and recreational vehicles and buses are registered in the city of Lawrence versus passenger vehicles.

You're going to have much more. We don't include the vehicles that go through Lawrence. No. No, just register. Just where they're registered. I just want to say that for the record.

Yeah. So you're not giving up a wheel tax or a excise surtax, not in the city, if you were to adopt this. It's just that the You wouldn't be getting the county portion.

The $40 fee is, the $25 fee is $100.

The $25 fee in the city of Lawrence is $25. And we can't charge for that. The excise surtax. The excise surtax for the county, and that will be beginning 2027, it would be a flat rate of $100. So that's where you get that $125 because the city of Lawrence adopted its municipal will tax and excise surtax prior to, The change in the law, right? We're still in this unique position to where that double taxation could still occur here.

So 125 versus 100 flat, right?

That's what we're talking about. 125 versus 100 versus 25, right? So there is also the opportunity if you were to repeal the ordinance as it currently is, right, because you may say, We don't want owners of vehicles in the city of Lawrence to pay $125, right? You may say we'd prefer that they paid $100, which would be the county. So then you would not adopt a new ordinance. Because adopting the new wheel tax and excise surtax ordinance is to get us to where double taxation cannot occur. And you're able to then select, are you going with the county or are you going with the city only?

I think aside from what you've seen now No. And then the other big question is, they take the money. I understood what you meant about the CCMG. But when that money come in from the will tax, you know, and these taxes, does it have to be used for that only?

It has to be used for a certain, and I can tell you exactly what it has to be used for.

No, no, no. I understand a road repair, but does it have to go to the match where they don't eat our money away?

You know what I'm saying? No. No, we got the MPH restricted. That's what the MPH is for.

Well, no, I was saying, she said if we take the will tax and you raise, they give you a million dollars and they take away from whatever you raise, right? And if the city is proposing, Indianapolis is saying that if we stick with their taxes, they're approximating $3 million, right? And the match over there is a million. What can we do with the rest of the cash?

well if you're you would have to use it as the fund dictates so there's on that word in the photo tax road right so it's the age now so you would get me a robot to construct reconstruct repair or maintain streets and roads grant takes it but you still get that money in your budget yes I just don't know how to give away road money I have a couple questions that are good first off just

This wheel tax, does it count in trailers, like utility trailers, equipment trailers, trailers that are plated?

It counts in trailers with a declared gross weight of more than 9,000 pounds and trucks and tractors with a declared gross weight of more than 11,000 pounds. Trailers over 9,000 pounds. Correct. Trailers over 9,000 pounds. Yeah, that's significant. More than 9,000 pounds.

Yeah. My other question is, Are there other municipalities that are involved with UNIGOV? Are they opting to do this as well, what we're doing here tonight?

Yeah, so their situation is a little bit different. So when you think of Beach Grove, Beach Grove didn't have a municipal exciser will tax before until now. And so they fit right into that new law. They've decided to go with just going with the municipal will tax and exciser tax and not. taking the county portion.

You sure about that?

From what I've read, yes.

Well, I talked to their council.

Unless they changed, but that's what was reported, yes.

And Speedway is doing nothing.

They're not.

They're just going to just take the $100? Take the $100.

I've been calling around.

Okay.

So then you see they're splitting different opinions on how to handle this.

So we're all in a different situation. Correct. We went first. Beach Grove went this year. Speedway's leaving it alone. Who's got the nicest streets in all the towns in the county?

Speedway. I don't like to say it out loud, but Speedway.

Who's got the bigger revenue? Speedway.

Well, I don't know if that's true. They're a town, not a city. But I'm not here to – I'm saying sometimes you've got to learn from best practice. It's not saying – I'm just trying to learn from our cousins. I'm not in a – excuse me. I'm not trying to be in a match. I'm just trying to learn. Right. And they call and try to learn from me. Speedway got the race, though. I'm just saying as far as – that's going to left field. I'm just saying what people are doing and they're evaluating – Right? Actually, I would think that our income here in Lawrence is bigger than Speedway. Half of Speedway is Hallville. But anyways, the question, though, is what I'm interested in is I'll vote for. I just couldn't believe that you don't want the money. I'm really fighting. No, seriously, I'm fighting for you.

I get the question is do you believe that. You take that you got to get more money for the city that was I'm trying to get more money in your budget.

That's all I'm trying to do today coming up in general for you know who knows who would know.

You said, would it be more money in the budget if you were to report?

In the street budget, it would be more money in the street budget if we take the county tax.

I think if we were looking at a $25 tax in the city versus $125, you most certainly would have more money in the budget.

$100.

So that's another option, right? That's the option we're talking about. But as of right now, if you do nothing, it's $125. If you repeal and we don't adopt something new, it's $100.

That's what I'm saying. Right now we're only talking about Proposal 4. Correct. So Proposal 4, if I repeal it and we just leave it alone.

Then you will take, you are then choosing the county tax.

And I'm trying to figure out how much money does that add to his budget and how can that money be used in a way that betters our city.

So that would be repeal 4 and don't adopt.

Can you hire more workers with that money in the street department? No, because that... No. No, I'm talking about as far as the... Because that would still be going into the fund, and that's a restricted fund that has to be spent on... I'm just asking what the usages are. Right, so a wheel tax. So it's got to go straight to... No, I didn't know if these guys are putting... Can you pay for guys to put the concrete in the ground, or do you just got to pay straight to the contractor with it? I'm saying if you got guys doing pothole control... Can I bring in two, three, can I use this money to bring a couple extra guys on to help with potholes?

Sounds like Renee's trying to answer a question. Yes, you can go, Renee.

You cannot use it for potholes repairs. It has to be used for the construction or reconstruction of streets and streets only. It can't be used to pay employees. It can't be used for any other reason but to repair and reconstruct streets. this year we got the million dollar match we matched a million and we're paving all of pebble brook streets kingsborough and english oak neighborhoods that's the streets we're doing this year for 2026. the money we collect in 2027 whatever amount that is if it's fifty thousand dollars in revenue from either the excise or the wheel tax That amount comes off of the million dollars that NDOT will match it. Like Terry said earlier, it would be $950,000 instead of a million. I got that figured out. We would take that.

I'm saying when you do your match, if they give me $3 million and I only need a part of that, and you're even saying we don't even need this WorldTag, we're using the MVA or whatever. I'm saying... What can I do with the other money? I know it's gotta go to streets. What is the restricted? back here and tear street up and rebuild it. Yes. Yes. That's right.

And that's what I'm going to meet with and what the like, like the front just rent is like remove 56th Street and put the roller coaster ride up.

We wouldn't. That's not actually right. It would be our neighborhood streets, guys, like our subdivision street.

Is this up to here? Oh, everybody. Renee's trying to say all these constituents that you're worried about offended.

But what I see, correct me if I'm wrong, but if we had this additional $3 million, even though it's going to have to be allocated for street repair, that relieves the general fund from having to allocate money for street repair because we're getting this wheel tax money. So to me, it's, I mean, yeah, you can't hire people. with this money, but you can certainly hire people with the money that came from the general fund that you can reallocate.

Well, he's just saying it takes relief off the general fund. It gives us flexibility. We're just trying to get flexibility up here.

No, I'm sorry. You cannot reallocate it to pay for salaries. That money can only be used.

Right, we're not saying that. We're not saying that. I'm saying if I zero out, I can zero out the street department fund out of the general fund if we're collecting $3 million out of it. No, you still can't. Well, because I got to pay the personnel.

The street department, that MVH fund also covers Concrete for curves and other things. So you have to take half of the motor vehicle highway fund and put it into the restricted fund. The other half stays in the motor vehicle highway non restricted fund. The non restricted fund is what we use to pay for employees to pay for gravel, concrete, streetlights, other things that go along with roads. The restricted funds. can only be used to reconstruct streets or construct brand new streets so half of the money that comes into the motor vehicle highway all this tax money has is usually split in half half goes to restricted half goes to non-restricted well you know one of the

that were happening. I imagine half my new councils don't even know what the NVH fund is because when you guys present the budget now, you're only presenting the general fund and not the other funds that play into the whole big picture. I knew that because I've seen budget books of the past, right? But most of the folks up here new don't understand all that, how all those different funds play. All the things we be over talking about is the general. So some of this ignorance, is because of our ignorance, is because, so I apologize that we're right here today. But the point, the bigger point that I'm trying to make, and I'm sorry, guys, if I'm dominating this, is that, I guess I'll ask it to you this way, Renee. If you got the money, what would you do with it?

I have to make street repairs.

And that's what we want. I don't care how you do it, how you shake it, how you do it. I just want to ride down a smooth street. I mean, I don't know about the rest of y'all. I can't even put low-profile tires on my car. I rest, I guess. Counselor.

Thank you. And so I just want to make sure everyone is aware. I want you to know what your options are, right? You have the option. You leave You don't repeal. You say no to this. You deny that repeal. And of course, then you wouldn't readopt a new one. That would leave the taxes to owners of vehicles within Lawrence. It would be 125 for excise surtax and 280 for wheel tax, because that's both the county and the city. if you were to do nothing. If you were to just repeal, which is accepting this first proposal that was presented to you, proposal number four, or excuse me, yes, number four, and not adopt a new proposal or a new municipal will tax, you would be selecting the county, essentially. And that would be $100 that owners of vehicles in the city of Lawrence would be required to pay. If you were to repeal ordinance number 4, 2025, which is the city's municipal and will tax that was effective as of January 1 of 2026, and then readopt to be effective January 1 of 2027, this next proposal, then that would cause you to select the city's will tax and excise surtax, which would then require that owners of vehicles within the city of Lawrence pay only a $25 excise surtax and a $40 municipal wheel tax.

If they got a big truck. Correct.

So it's always either. You don't pay both unless there's some reason why you have a passenger vehicle and a semi that are registered in Lawrence. So 280 is because the effective as of January 1, 2027, The county wheel tax is now going to be a flat rate of $240.

If you got the big car. Right.

And $100 if you just have a passenger vehicle.

If you got a trailer that's 9,000 pounds, ain't you making money with that trailer?

No. I'm retired. I can't hear you.

Yeah.

I'm trying to hear this woman.

I'm trying to hear this woman.

I'm going to say that's a hell of a trailer.

So you're going to say?

Could you repeat yourself, please?

Which part? Just the last part about? The flat rate for the county that will be effective as of January 1, 2027, is wheel tax. Again, that's looking at your semis and what we've discussed and presented. Flat rate county, 240. 240. Excise surtax. Again, your passenger vehicles, mostly. Motorcycles, I believe, are under that as well. Collector vehicles, military vehicles, mini trucks, things of that nature. Those are your excise surtax fees. That counts. For the county, it's a flat rate, effective as of January 1, 2027, $100. Now, you're not paying typically, like I said, unless you have a semi and a passenger vehicle that are registered in the city of Lawrence, you're not paying both of those. You're paying one or the other, typically.

Let me clarify that. That would be the same for a motorhome? So if you're paying on a car, you're not paying the tax on the motorhome?

So a motor-driven cycle is still under the excise surtax. A mini truck, a collector vehicle, a trailer vehicle with a declared gross weight of 9,000 pounds or less, trucks with a declared gross weight of 11,000 pounds or less, and again, passenger motor vehicles, motorcycles, and military vehicles. Those are your excise surtax fees. Currently in the city of Lawrence, $25.00.

Okay, I don't think.

Currently for the county effective January 1, 2027, $100.

I was confused by that because you just said a minute ago that if you have a truck and a car, you don't pay for the truck. No, that's not what I said. Okay, huh?

No, that's not what I said. I said typically you're not going to have a semi in a passenger vehicle that are registered in the city of Lawrence. Why not? That's what I'm saying.

Why not?

I mean, I don't, because typically you just may, that's not something typical, not ever, but they're typically just referring to, you're going to pay a passenger vehicle fee if you have a passenger vehicle, if you have a semi truck. And so you're thinking of people who may own businesses and they have semi trucks and things of that nature or these large vehicles.

You're just going off of an analogy that you're not going off of an actual law.

No, that's not the law. But it's the law that you're not paying both.

So if a person has, say, 15 cars, he's going to pay that tax on each individual car.

That's right.

That is correct. Yes. Yes, because it's vehicles registered in the city. So whenever you're registering your vehicle, you would see that tax on there.

Per view.

Per view.

Mm-hmm.

Because you're doing a separate registration for each vehicle. I have not had one complaint from a poor person. Everybody who's complained to me has been rich. I got five bikes and an RV and a boat. I'm a poor person, and I'm not happy about it.

First world problems. Well, you have the opportunity to do something about it if you're not happy and if your constituents aren't.

I'm just saying, everybody thinks of a single mom with one car, trying to make it, trying to keep her car registered. I mean, that's our heart goes out to. But since I've been surveying and people calling me, That has not been the person. It's been the guy with the RV and the three classic cars and da-da-da, and now all of a sudden he's shooting way up. Right.

And I say he's the... Those are the cars that are impacting the roads the most. They should pay more.

I mean the vehicles, not the cars.

Well, honestly, I don't want to pay more. But I know that this city needs the money. And I think sooner or later, you just have to bite the bullet. And you have to say, yeah, you know, you want you want a city, you want roads, you want, you know, the things that come from a city, you got to pay for it. And that's, that's that. I mean, it's not pleasant. And it's not we're not gonna win any friends by, you know, taxing them. But you know, we're going into the budget season, and I think that's going to be a grim task. So, I, like Councilor Giles said, with the $3 million, to me, it's a lot more attractive than, what, $40,000? But anyway, and to do that, we don't, we vote against four and leave five alone? No.

If we were to vote down four and then to vote for number four and then vote down number five, we would be accepting the county's rate over it.

Right. Yeah. And sometimes Unigub can help us. They took the heat. Sometimes it needs to help us sometimes because it don't help us very often.

Yeah. Yeah, because I think this, yeah, I think Indianapolis is going to take the heat worse than we will. So I guess we'll see. We will.

Do we have any other questions for the administration? All righty. Thank you. Thank you so much, Amber.

Thank you.

The floor is now open for individuals in support of the proposal.

Proposal number four.

And five. We're doing combined.

We're doing both together? OK.

5718 wallingwood drive i don't know what this is that somebody just spoke for 35 minutes you opened up this public hearing and said six minutes this is not a public hearing my initial talk was going to be on affordability and accountability. It's quite obvious that the Democratic message of affordability as their agenda for the midterm elections doesn't apply to this group of people.

Yes, because we're not them.

You're not even talking about affordability. Accountability. I looked at the June monthly financial reports and the only thing I found was the wheel tax for $43,000 and I could not figure out how they came up with it. Now, change the topic here. I guess I'm limited to six minutes only. You've been talking about everything underneath the sun except the public. In my opinion, The public hearing is a joke. And I will ask that you people are talking back discussion with the other people here that did not introduce themselves. So on the video, nobody even will know who they are. They did not give their address. They did not say that they were with the city. Now, my question is, is this a legitimate public hearing? You didn't follow any of the rules that you set up. You let it get out of control.

Sir, I will say that your time for you is six minutes. The administration was not given a time limit. Speaking in favor or against was six minutes. The administration was not given a time limit. We voted on those rules. So I will add an extra minute to your time.

Is this a legitimate public hearing? You don't run the media. Does it make... He opened up the public hearing and talked about everything else.

We talked about the will tax.

I didn't address you. I'm addressing you.

Mr. Rapp, you are wasting your time. This is your time to speak, and you're using it to admonish us.

I am not going to participate in this. Are you in favor or are you against this proposal? Thank you for your time. Bye.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Would anyone else like to speak in favor of Proposal 4 and 5? The floor is now open for those in opposition to proposal four and five. Would anyone like to speak? Madam Clerk, are there any comments from the members of the public attending virtually?

No.

Hearing no further comments, the public hearing is now closed. I'd now like to open up any discussion by council members, if we have any further discussion we'd like to have. Would you like to?

President Kramer, I'd like to give the council a little, before there's a vote taking, just a reminder of what your options are here.

We've talked about it. I'm just trying to give you a summary.

If you do nothing, you vote down proposal number four and proposal number five. That means on January 1st of 2027, you're going to be subject to double taxation, the existing tax for the city and the county's new tax. So that's going to mean for the wheel tax, it's going to be. 125. The wheel tax is the heavy vehicle, so that's $280 per vehicle. For your excise at your passenger vehicles, it's $125. If you don't want to do double taxation, you don't want it to be $125 and $280, you'll need to vote to repeal number four. It's going to leave you with two options now. You've got proposal number five before you. If you vote to adopt proposal number five, that means you're going to have a city wheel and excess tax. Excise is going to be $25 per passenger vehicle, $40 per larger, the wheel tax. If you vote down Proposal 5, vote not to adopt it, you do nothing. That means the residents of Lawrence are going to be subject to the county's taxes. That means it's going to be $100 for your excise, your smaller vehicles, $240 for your bigger vehicles. No matter what you do here tonight, you're still going to qualify for the CCMG grant. There is another special grant we haven't talked about tonight. It's called the Lane Mile Distribution Grant. It's a new one for 2027. It does reduce what you get from the CCMG. It's not something in addition, but it's a separate pot of funds coming from the state. And if you want to try to get those funds, Lawrence has to adopt its own wheel and excess tax. But again, it's not really an additional amount of funds with the CCMG. It's just coming from a different source. It's new this year.

Can you repeat that? Lawrence has to adopt its own?

If it wants to qualify for the LMDD, the Lane Mile Distribution.

But it doesn't add any money to us?

It doesn't add any money. It comes from a separate pot. So it's not necessarily the same as the CCMG. It's just kind of different qualifications for what the money's coming from. It doesn't require that matching grant. So that's kind of probably the carrot for you.

But you're not saying you get?

It's not necessarily more money, no. But I just want you to know, no matter what you do tonight, you're still going to qualify for the CCMG. So do you want me to go over those options again?

This other fund still has the same restrictions of usage?

I'm not sure. I think some of those are from Lawrence's own ordinances, but I would assume it would be very similar.

Very similar. OK.

Does anybody want me to go over them again?

But did you give us the amount of the landmine distribution? I know it's new.

It's new and it will be dependent on actual miles. And then it depends on exactly what the General Assembly set aside. No one really knows how much is going to be available. Unlike with the CCMG, there's a certain amount that everybody knows is going to be available. I can go over those options again for you if you want me to.

Actual miles of road.

Yeah, depending on how many miles in your municipality, how many would qualify for it.

Okay.

It's just a separate, it's just essentially another pot that's become available in the General Assembly. But it's not necessarily more money. Right. Whatever you get, it would be like your CCMG grant minus what you get from the LMDV, and that equals your award.

One other question, guys. And Amber, you may know this. When Indianapolis spoke about the proximate money, is that in cash or projects?

I believe that was in cash.

Okay, well, that's big, guys. Because I don't trust them with projects, but cash is cash.

So to be clear, we repeal. and do nothing on five. We would appeal four and do nothing on five. We have 25 for excise and 40 for the big truck. It would be the 100. We would go with the county. We would go with the county. Yes.

So if we kept five, then that's what we would do. That's what I said. That's what I thought I said. Appeal four and take five.

Yes. That would be 25 and 40. It would be 25 and 40, right? With the potential money from the city, right?

With the match, are you thinking about for the CCMG?

Yes.

A matching grant.

That's right. I'm sorry, from the state. Is that right?

Didn't you say nothing interferes with the CC? Right. Right.

You're going to qualify either way, and I think your corporation counsel has much more knowledge about this than she can help me. But you're going to qualify for that either way, but it's all about what your contribution match is. So if you do this county's version, so if you take the $100, the $240, it's going to be more money. It's going to then increase what your contribution could be, then increase what you qualify under the grant.

For that grant.

For that grant.

But you don't have to use all the money for the grant. right that's that's what i wanted to be able to say that we ain't gotta they don't just suck all the money that we you know no we can do what we got to do to get the million and do what we can't do with the rest correct all right as long as we're in line with the ordinance what we have to spend it on in the fund we can't so i can go over the options one more time i just want you to know what you're voting on tonight

So if you do nothing tonight, you vote down 4 and 5, that means you're essentially subjecting the citizens of Lawrence to double taxation because you would like to have more money in these funds. That would be $125 for your small vehicles, $280 for your big ones. You decide to repeal ordinance number four, that's our current tax, then you have two options. After that, you can do nothing. You can vote down, or vote down proposal number five, I guess is really what you're doing. That means you're gonna adopt the county's ordinance. You're gonna subject citizens of Lawrence to the county's. $100 for small vehicles, 240 for your big. If you adopt proposal number five, it means you're going to have, Lawrence is going to have its own. $25 for small vehicles and $40 for big vehicles. Ms. Finley, did I get that? Yes. That's right. That's right.

Thank you. And the only thing I was going to add is that's what it's currently, that city taxes 25 and 40. So the repeal is we're repealing to readopt if you wanted to do that, just to be in line with that statute. So there was no possibility of that double taxation because then you would be paying more than vehicles that are registered in Indianapolis at 125. We would have the highest. Yeah, 125 and 280. That's significant for residents and business owners.

I know I'll keep this going. Do you know, because she said that you were really studying this, is Marion County the first county to pass the county tax?

So they've already had one in place, to my knowledge, and they just amended it. And so it used to be like a tiered level, and so it wasn't that flat rate of 100. It was varying levels. So I believe going for like the excise surtax was that minimum of $750 going up and up and up.

So we don't know any examples of like Lake County's got the tax and Cheriville's charging the $25, and you never talked to anybody like that? No.

I looked more around in the surrounding areas just to see what everyone was doing. But this... But we made that decision also last year, you know, with the 25 and the 40 for the municipal.

You guys do know the 25 is the max that a city can do. Correct. And the 40 is the max that the city can do. That's true. But the county can do more.

Right. And the minimum is $5 for the will tax and $7.50 for the excise surtax. Anything else? Thank you. I'll stay up here. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all your hard work.

Seriously.

Any further discussion?

You know, a double text is out of the question.

Yes. So do I have a motion to remove, to approve proposal number four?

I will move.

Councilor Boyd in second from Missouri. All right, is there any further discussion?

Are you guys able to use your?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trying.

Oh, it just disappeared.

Where do we move? Okay, gotcha.

Yeah, that's all there is to do now. I just got Terrell. Ooh, it says I motioned and Liz said. No, no, remove it. We got it. I didn't hear any motion.

Remove it.

Well, we're just on teams anyway.

That's crazy. Can we remove it?

she had you have to I can't remove it it didn't work I don't know I don't know what the minutes that yeah down sir boy just credited with the motion yeah all right any further discussion all right well now proceed with the vote To approve proposal number four. Four. We'll approve four. Yes.

Approve it.

Mm-hmm. Which would be repealing it. Repealing it. Oh, right. Yes. Yes and no.

All righty. Let the record reflect that we have a nine to zero unanimous decision to approve proposal number four. All right. We'll now consider proposal number five. I would entertain a motion to either approve or deny proposal number five.

Mr. President, I would like to make a motion to not approve. I would second that. Proposal number five.

See if you guys can use your machines.

See if I can do what? Push motion. Okay. I got motion that he can push second. Perfect. Yep. Then work that time. Work that time? Okay. Yeah, you get it. So we will vote yes because we're voting to deny.

Not approve.

Deny. Is that right?

Is that right? Okay, so right now, if you were to vote yes, it would revert us to the county's tax.

No.

A no vote would be to not approve, to revert to the county's vote.

Okay. Excuse me? Mm-hmm.

So a yes vote takes you to the county tax, a no vote takes us to our city tax.

No, of course we're voting to not approve, right? No, we were on five.

Well, they worded it different.

Ask the attorney.

So there's been a motion made to deny proposal number five. Yes. So if you vote right now, if you vote yes to this motion,

We denied. You denied.

You denied proposal number five. Yes. Then the next thing would be a consideration for legislation that we don't have pending tonight. If you would want to adopt Lawrence, but would adopt his own. Yes. Make a proposal for that to then have the $25 and $40. So the motion right now is no. There's been a motion made. We're going to vote to not to adopt proposal number five.

A yes would be saying we're not going to vote. A yay vote would give us the county tax.

Currently.

Yes.

And then we could introduce new legislation if you would like. Am I explaining that?

They haven't asked for corporation counsel here.

Oh, my God. County taxes. So if you vote to repeal, right? Right.

So now in January 1 of 2027, we won't have a city wheel tax and excise surtax. So the proposal that was in front of you was to readopt the municipal wheel tax and excise surtax so that we are then selecting the cities or municipalities' excise surtax and wheel tax, 40 and 25. That's the only thing that people would pay if they were registering their vehicles in the city of Lawrence. If you do not adopt that proposal, like I said, there will not be a will tax or excise surtax in effect for the city January 1, 2027. So then you have selected to go with the county. And just so you know, all of this, the ordinance, in order for this to go into effect on January 1 of 2027, September 1 is the deadline. So everything's teed up and ready to go. We have the approval letter. We're ready to go. Whatever we need to do to get that all submitted into Gateway, depending on what you decide. But even if it is just to repeal it and you're saying you're going with the county, we still have to get that into Gateway. by September the 1st which is tomorrow.

If we say yes. If we say yes. My motion is to deny proposal number five which means if you say yes to my motion we would go to the county tax repealing ours and taking the county tax. If you say yes then we would go to saying we got to do a city and then there's a second step or something to do to put the city back on.

If you say nay. No, no.

That was the statement on my

Oh, there's a misstatement on her part. Okay. Okay.

If you vote yes tonight, that means it's going to go to the county. Okay. And if you vote no, based on what the pending motion is, it means you're going to adopt the city.

Correct. So it's $100. So on the table is, if you're going with the county, it's $100 for flat rate for the county excise surtax. It is a $240 flat rate for the Will Tax. Those are the county rates. So if you vote to go along with the motion that's currently here now, that is what you are selecting because the proposal that's in front of you is saying move forward with the city wheel tax and excise surtax only, which would be $25 excise surtax, $40 wheel tax.

That's what's confusing because it says it right here, $25.

Right.

Yes.

Okay.

So just think back to the, but what is the motion? The motion is to say no to that. That's what, that's why it's getting a little confusing.

Yeah.

The motion is to say no to that adopting the city's lower 25 and 40 and going with the county 100. 240 based on the motion motion is do you want to go with the city Or do you want to go with the county?

Right. So if you vote yes, that means you're going with the county. Right. And if you vote no, that means you want to go with the city. Correct. Based on the motion that was made.

Yes. Yes. So we want to know. Yeah. Thank you. So are y'all voting no on five? Yes. That's correct.

Okay. Y'all want to go ahead and place your votes? Okay. Thank you.

Passed 6-3.

All right. Let the record reflect that there has been a 6-3 to deny proposal number 5. There is no further business tonight. Do I have a motion to adjourn?

So moved. So moved.

All right. Proceed with the vote. All those in favor signify by saying aye.

Aye. Aye.

Motion passed. Meeting is adjourned.