City Council - Regular Meeting

Oh god, it feels so good. Like movie house.

Thank you, Phil. All right, it's five o'clock. Welcome everyone uh to the joint city county workshop of January 20th, 2026. Uh I now call this meeting to order and I will ask uh my cohort, Mr. Murphy, to lead us in the pledge and invocation. So if you'll please stand with us.

Please stand bow your heads if you would please. Dear Lord, we just want to thank you for this day, this wonderful weather that we're having here in North Florida, Columbia County, city of Lake City. Lord, we just ask that you guide each and every one of us here tonight at this workshop. And Lord, we just ask that each one keeps the open mind and try to accomplish the task that comes forward to the elected officials here in Columbia County. Try to do the best for what is for each and every citizen here within the boundaries of Columbia County. And Lord, we just want to send a special ask out to all the first responders throughout this world that represents each and every one of us. And Lord, we just ask that you put a hedge of protection around each one of them, our country, our city, and our state. And Lord, we just ask that this with a special ask that whatever we do here today would shine in the eyes of you, our savior, Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Amen. To the flag of the United States of America, to the republic for it stands nationy and justice for all. All right. Thank you, Mr. Murphy. Uh, Miss Sykes, will you please call the role for both the county and the city? Here

present present here presenter here

thank you miss Sykes mayor for the record he asked me if I would Mr. Mr. Hollinssworth had an emergency out of town. He had a 10. So he he apologized and uh just want to let everybody know that. Thank you, Mr. Murphy. All right. Uh we are now going to move on into uh public participation and public comments. If you could uh just keep your comments to three minutes if anybody is wishing to do that. I didn't get any comment cards from the back. So I'm going to do a brief scant. Yes, sir. Mr. Stew, would you like to speak? Uh, we don't have a a clock visible, so Miss Sykes is going to set one on her phone and it will go off when your time is up.

Kind of disappointed to hear coming to this meeting today. This meeting is just going to be a waste of time. Everybody get the consultants get most [snorts] department. three or four city police department. Tell them we want to come up with a plan. Let them h it out, work together, know each other. Many times they have amamilies that work and city. I think the guys that do the work best. Thank you, Mr. Liller. Quick eyeballs. Anybody else? All right. Oh, we'll close public participation now. And I'm actually going to um introduce the topic tonight of the fall fire consolidation feasibility study and ask Mr. Rosenthal. Uh we'll let administration go and then uh Mr. Crawford, you're indicating that you want to speak. I'll I'll let you go after him. Okay. [snorts]

Just a second, Mr. Rosenthal. I don't think this mic is working. It's not. Is it on? Quick quick power check. Y there we go. Testing. Yep. There we go. So, perfect. Thank you, Mr. Rosenthal.

All right. [clears throat] Uh we're here tonight to consider uh doing an analysis for both fire departments, city fire department and the county fire department. That analysis will tell us whether or not an actual consolidation of fire department will make sense. Uh once we do the analysis, it'll tell us uh if that's a good idea or a bad idea. We just heard a mention a few seconds ago that he's seen this four times and I I can certainly understand that. But I assure you we probably never had an analysis like the one that we're proposing. Once we have this analysis, it'll tell us quite quickly and easily whether or not this makes sense or not, whether or not there'll be any financial savings. If there are financial savings, it's probably something we should do. But if it's not financial savings, it's probably something we shouldn't do. And that keeps it simple and to the point. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Rosenthal. Mr. Krauss, did you you want is that good from the administrative point of view?

No, thank you. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Krauss. Mr. Crawford, thank you uh for giving me time to get up here and talk to you a little bit tonight. Uh so everybody knows and people out here know, I'm Jeff Crawford. I'm the fire chief for the county. uh in the last month I have done a lot of uh digging into exactly what can be done and why it should be done what shouldn't be done and a lot of the outcomes uh and if you will let me I would like to hand out something to all of y'all real quick

thank

[snorts]

to do something like this to do the to do a combined fire department whether it's county city or a fire district you should have a goal in mind and I would think that the goal would be to have a better service at a at a less and and cost less you know at definitely keep it minimum and and and gain service on well there's There's a lot of moving parts to this this study and this stuff that needs to be looked at. One of the one of the things that the city I don't think has realized yet before you go into this I like I said I I' I've put a lot of of time and and study into this here in the last few days or month. Uh the city has been able to get to a two ISO rate which is awesome. That is that is a wonderful thing. I've never been that far down before. That is awesome. Spoke with Mr. Huitt from ISO who did the ISO survey coming and gathered information from the city and from us and and rated both departments and all. He said by doing a fire district a one department countywide city's ISO rating is going to automatically drop to a four which is what county coverage is. ISO rating is is based a lot on personnel, equipment, and response times. City has a small area that they cover right now, about six square miles or so, maybe a little less. They're able to have a lot quicker response times to their area than the county does because we've got there's total 801 square miles in this county. So, there's a lot of area to cover. So, one of the first things that would happen by doing this merger is the city's ISO rating is going to go down. Counties will stay the same on that side. The reason I'm I'm getting into that and all I'm wanting to show

you that is there's a lot of misconceptions about ISO and it how it affects insurance rates and stuff. Well, I have a letter here and I'll give you a handout letter here from uh Mr. John Wheeler, who's Wheeler Insurance, who's actually out here in the audience. So, if I don't explain some of this stuff, well, he can about the protection classes and what it means to to coverage and all. And the second page of it is he gives a list of of insurance companies that he can represent and whether they use ISO or they don't use ISO. And all of these use ISO countywide. if if there's areas that is not within a five mile range of a fire station is considered to be like a class 10 or unprotected. So there's only a few areas like that in the county right now. And on those, if you look over here, the ones where it says PC10 eligible on the second page far right, those ones that say no are insurance companies that will not even write a policy if you're not within that protected class. So, reason why I'm saying a bunch of that is because if you merge fire and city and you drop service within the county or city at all, you're going to affect that rate. You're going to affect a lot of the people, all of the people within the county. Now, I know I've been told multiple different times that uh State Farm Insurance Agency doesn't use ISO, and you're correct. They don't use ASA but they use their own information and all that they've gathered their own response times their own stuff and they have the county divided out into sectors according to how they rate the fire response in that area. Now if there's any question about that and and any I can't explain that

well I have Mr. John Kesak here with me who is from State Farm who can better elaborate or or if there's any thoughts that is I'm not what I'm presenting is not correct then then they can they can verify all of that. So there is a big big issue with dropping ISO ratings county or citywide. All right. Uh, let me explain what a fire district is typically and and the way it's normally used because I I I had not looked into fire districts a whole lot until this point. I knew that there were some various places in the state of Florida, but I got to really looking into it. And a fire district, you won't hardly you won't find them countywide. you find them. A fire district typically covers an area that is really commercial intensive or high residential intensive or very high dollar values because making a small department like that that covers this very high dollar area, you can give a lot better service and you can give at a at a at a lower the ISO ratings and and give it at a at a price that you can't do on a countywide basis. down south Florida and all, you've got counties and all that have multiple fire districts within one county. They don't go the other way. So, what I think we're doing here is we're about to back up the wrong way is if you're wanting to make a better service county and citywide. Now, the fire department, the the uh like I said, the the city fire department is able to have a class two because of the small area that they cover. and and the equipment and personnel that they have within that area. If you go to spreading that out in the county, you're going to lose your city's ratings even more. If you take from the county and pull it in to help

cover the cities more, you're going to lose that areas in the county. You shut down any station out in the county, you're going to create more of the class 10 areas that are not coverable, you know. So that that's some of that stuff you really need to look at. Uh some of the thing another thing that I've really looked into a lot with that is how do you finance these these districts and all I know speaking with with uh Mr. Rosenthal I hope I say your name right. I'm sorry if I don't uh that you would use uh uh an assessment like our MSBUs that do already right now. [clears throat] There's several little issues with using the MSBU to fund this fire district. Number one, by statute, anything you exempt out, that's all the schools, the churches, the elderly that you exempt out, the low income that you exempt out, all those have to be paid into back into that budget. So, right now, anybody that the city or county does out, they're having to pay back into the budget out of the their uh regular budgets, other means. So that being said, if if you're going to do that, you anything exempt out, either you can exempt them out or the city and county is still going to have to contribute. All right. Uh, another thing to that approximately 80% or so of the city's budget and the county's fire budget is personnel and salaries. So the only way you're going to make a significant savings is to cut personnel. Cut personnel, you're cutting services. Cut services, you're backing up one more time. So I that's I hope that what I'm

trying to do is is is educate a little bit before y'all make a decision on what to do and all. Some of the things that we I can show you will already happen, you know, and some of that that goes to Lewis. uh if you even if you combined you don't want to drop the number of your firemen out there because like I said you'll be losing service. What can you do away with? Maybe a chief, maybe an assistant chief, but you're a fire district. You're no longer a county or city uh entity. You're your own district. So, you're going to have to provide HR people. You're going to have to provide payroll and finance or either you're going to have to contract it out with somebody else. So you've still got those extra expenses of what you're thinking you're going to conserve there personnel wise. Another thing that the MSBU can't fund is ALS services. The county runs three ALS engines and the city is in the process right now of going ALS. Also that can't be funded out of that. that if you want to keep that services have to be funded from a different way city or county other other monies. So that goes back to again if you don't you're going to lose services county depends on that a lot. City is it is very needed for the county and city per residents and all. Uh another thing that that'll make effect if you do an MSBU Right now, the city charges $440 basically a household. County charges 309 to do an assessment countywide. You can't keep them that you're going to meet in the middle somewhere. So, the county residents are going to be paying more for the same ser if you keep it the

same same service. The city residents going to pay a little less on that. So, that's that's a different thing that you've got to look at. uh when you go to looking at trying to merge or or make it all one department, there's a lot of different things personnel wise that you really need to look at. There's two different retirement systems right now. City has its own retirement system. The countyy's under FRS. I know that there had been sayings of, well, we'll just keep you could keep both retirement systems until the city one ran out. All new people go into FRS as they're hired. That doesn't work. That would be horrible. City fire department earns 2.75% per year towards their retirement. FRS earns 3%. So, are you going to give part of the people less retirement than you give the others? that that that just doesn't make good sense. Uh also, if you're saying that I've heard that, well, you could cash out and buy into the other system. Cash out and buy. I used to work for the city fire department. I I worked there for 11 years. When I left the city to come to the county when the county opened their fire department, I looked at that cashing in to cash in my retirement and try to buy years into the the F FRS. I could have cashed my 11 years in and I could have bought about three and a half in the F FRS system. Couldn't I could not even come close to making that up. So, I was able to keep my city retirement. Right now, I draw a city city retirement paycheck as it is. But if you did that, that's that's you're hurting your people. Either way you go, if you went with a different retirement system, you're going to hurt all the ones that are under the F FRS system. So no matter how you look at it, doing this combination, you're going to

hurt one group of firemen, whether it be city or whether it be county, you're going to hurt them. All their families, all the the time and the the years that they've put in and the loyalty that they've shown is just you just threw it away. uh with that that I've heard of talking about well you cash out the whole retirement system the whole city retirement system and and put that in to buy people towards that you have a a number of people that are drawing a city retirement check right now me being one of them several older chiefs several others that are retired from the system and all so if you cash out that system and you buy these firemen into the Florida retirement system at the number of years they're that that doesn't leave a real big chunk for these the ones that are drawing a retirement system now to get a cash lump sum and be and cashed out. Even if you cash out and you give them a lump sum and you do away with the whole retirement system that year that they just got all that big cash money, they're going to eat them up in taxes. You're killing them that way, too. So, you're hurting you're not only hurting the firemen that are there today, you're hurting the ones that have retired. It's just not a good good thing. And go back a little bit to where you said where we'll just keep two retirement systems and not put any more money into the one. City's retirement system has to be actuarily sound. Has to be. It's only actuarily sound because you have people putting into the system all the time. If you lower that number, you start cutting back on those people putting in, city's going to have to start contributing to that system to make it actuarily sound or somebody's got to, whether it's the city, the county, or the district itself, somebody's going to have to help put into that system to make it sound. That's just a like I said, this that's

just things that I have found that are issues with this even before doing a big study. and and and and I know that in the county and in the city both, you're always trying to do things to save the money and to to I guess be better stewards of your tax money. And you should. That's that's why you're here. But you're looking at putting $200,000 into a study that I can show you already that there's a lot of flaws that will happen even if they come back and says you're going to save, you know, $100,000 a year by doing this combined thing. Look at all these other things that you've just hurt people. You've hurt the citizens of countywide, citywide that you've just hurt insurance-wise, personnel-wise, working-wise. It's I don't see any good in this. I don't see any good county or city-wise. you know, there the the fire departments, you know, there may have been a time when they first uh split apart county and city that there was a little bit of rivalry and animosity between people, but right now, Chief Wayer and I work very well together. All of these guys out on these calls together, they work very well together. There's not issues out there. So, saying you're going to combine and have a a better working relationship, better service, it's not going to happen. you know, along with that and all too, uh, there is lost my train of thought a little bit there. There's there's just so much stuff that that that is not a benefit. And to me to take $200,000 and put towards this study when that money can

be used for so many other projects county and citywide I just I don't see a benefit anyway any any way around. Is there any questions anybody has of me? I got one. Mr. J, I got several. Yes, sir. Is that all right? Yep. Uh Chief, um um you and the uh the other chief, have y'all communicated about what you're talking about right now?

Yes. Yeah. Well, I've I've asked him pretty extensively about his uh his budget, the way it works, the way the city works, what you do now and all. And I, you know, I know the fire the county way of doing and yeah, I've I've consulted with him a good bit on this. Okay. Uh again, that that's that's it. That's my question because uh it appears that you know, you you pretty much know what uh what what's going on here um as far as um having a five district or consolidation or whatever the case may be. And that's um that's very good that the two chiefs or the assistant chiefs um y'all all get get together and and try to come up with a major plan. So, uh, I want to just let you know I appreciate you and the, uh, the chief here. Uh, because I think the world of of my chief, I can tell you that now. Uh, um, I I don't when it comes to him, I'm going protect him by all means. Okay? So, whatever y'all come up with, I'm hoping that everybody else can see the light just like you can. Okay.

Well, I I like I said, I we work very well together. We've worked together for a bunch of years. We were at the city together in the beginning before the county even had a fire department. Then we were both at the county for a while before he went back to the city and and became chief and or assistant chief and chief over there. There's a very good working relationships already. That's what I like

there. There's, you know, I I I I don't know how to put it, you know, any any other way that but that we are two separate departments, but we work together as one already. You know, we we we do a lot together. So, to come out and do something that will hurt a lot of these guys and their families, I just I don't I can't support that. I I don't support that. and and I just I I can't Okay. You know, so is there anything else? Thank you, Mr. Crawford. U if he answer any more questions, make sure that you speak into the microphone. I don't Mr. For I just want to clarify.

So, if I'm understanding you're right, this would be a whole separate away from both city and county. Yes. It would have to have its own finance department, per personnel. Correct.

HR. That's that's the way a fire district is set up. Has their own. It is not a county entity. It is not a city entity. It has its own board that governs it. So, a lot if you want to Google that way, there's a lot that and I know the city does too, but as far as countywide, there's a lot that the county fire department does to help other areas in the county of things. It's not really fire department duties, especially during storms and other thing like that, but they step up and they help do it. with a fire district that's not part of the county. Don't know if it will happen or won't happen or if you know it's just there's lots of control you the county will not have control of their fire department whatsoever anymore and the city won't. Now I know that that it was presented at one time uh the city manager when we spoke uh said well you can make the board three county commissioners and three city councilmen. That that's a a deadlock board. that it would never get anything done. And and and I please don't take this wrong. I mean no no down to the city council people, but y'all were elected to look after that six square miles and that 12,000 people or so that's within that city limits. And that's what you should do. That's what you're elected to do. That's what you should do. These county commissioners are elected to do that for that 795 square miles and other 60some thousand people in the county. They need to look out after them. So realistically to give a 5050 say so on a board of a fire department to that mismatched of a representation doesn't look good. Jeff, what is the budget for the county fire department right now? Total budget. And what do you I don't know if you know the total budget for the city fire department right now.

I don't know his total budget. His is 4.3. Ours is 8 point right at 8.9. So less than $13 million for both fire departments right now. Yes. And how many employees does the city and the county have right now? We have 54 firefighters and four admin. 54. Yes sir. So roughly 60 people. Yes. Well 60 70 80 some people all together. Yes sir.

So if you had if you try to put HR and payroll finance what do you what do you think that would increase the number of employees by? Well, at a minimum, you've gonna have to have one in HR, and you're going to have to have one or two in finance. Uh, that's a a pretty good financial dollar amount to oversee and to make sure everything is done right. So, at least three, maybe four people at minimum, you know, to to govern those. And that would be all of course. that that's above and beyond what you're doing right now because the city finance and and person HR does the city city fire department and county does our county fire department.

Uh you know we have that right now with the with the sheriff's office. They have their own personnel all that. Um now they have a lot more employees and that that would still be but you know the cost is just keeps going up every year for that. I mean, it's just which I know the fires goes up some every year, too. But when you start trying to hire hire people to do the payroll and the HR and Well, I don't think you can do it four people. Be honest with you. You said four people. I don't think you can do it for people.

You've got to look the city and the the fire departments are different than your Monday through Friday 8 to 5 employees. Also, they work shift work. uh either 24 on 48 off or 48 on 96 off a shift work schedule. So the way it works and holidays and and all of that is very different than a a Monday through Friday 8 to 5 person. So it takes a skilled payroll person to do that. Yes. Anything?

I was just trying to get trying to figure out what a budget might look like for this. So you know And just to um put the put the cart back behind the horse. So what the um what what we're trying to decide tonight by consensus because we're not voting anything hard is uh do we move forward with a joint study to see if if we would if we would come back to a decision um to combine those services or not. um just just uh um to be administrative here. Um so I know that a lot of those a lot of those details very important and I appreciate you bringing all that forward. Um but just for tonight's purposes, the only thing that we're discussing or not the only thing it's not the only thing that we're discussing. Uh but the importance that we come to is whether or not we decide to move forward with that study from both boards and at which point we'd both have to go back and vote on that uh budgetary item. So uh I know that does anybody have any questions on this side? Any more questions on this side? Then we'll move to this side.

I have question. So Mr. Crawford, how are you today? I'm good. How are you? Good. Good. So you sought out to do this study on your own or was Yes, ma'am. Well, I wanted to educate myself. To me, I can't speak on something I don't know about. Okay. So, you you wasn't privy to um this trying to come into fruition or you heard anything about it? Oh, yes, ma'am. I've I've heard about this. That's why I did the the study into what it what it all entailed. Yes, ma'am.

So, most of the stuff that you spoke about tonight, it has almost been negative. What are the pluses if we do consolidate? If you could just

That that is the issue. I haven't found a lot of pluses. The things that you try to do with a fire district is to make a better coverage area for a certain district, a certain area. That's why I say that we're doing this, you're looking at doing this backwards because if it was one big city department or one big county department right now, countywide, and you wanted to make your fire service better for the city, you would create a fire district for your city and then you would be able to have a better service and lower your ISO ratings and all, which is almost what you have now with a city fire department. you're able to create a lower ISO rating within the city because you have a smaller area to cover and you are pretty much pretty uh commercial intensive and have a lot of income from that.

Okay. So, would you say that you're not an expert in um I guess in the planning of um the city and the consolidation? You're you're not a Oh, no ma'am. No, ma'am. I'm not an expert in anything. I All I can do is is relay the information. I was I had found out doing my own studies, digging into it.

Yes, sir. But if we were to go and get a strategic planning analysis, wouldn't you think that would be um fruitful for us to get someone that does this for a living? And and I'm not knocking anything you you're saying. I'm just not. But for me to make a decision about the consolidation, I would prefer to hear it from [clears throat] um somebody that this is what they do. Yes, ma'am. I I uh and even though you said it would cost roughly $200,000 in order to take care of this. Um

those numbers come from y'all. That that dollar amount did. Yeah. But most of the time, anytime you do a study of anything in we'll say in a mag something as big as this, normally it's going to cost some money. Yes, ma'am. But I there's a couple of things that I want to make sure that we have um when I get ready to make my my decision. First, in this planning, if it saves the city and the county money, I'mma be for it.

Secondly, I know that the county has their firemen and the city have their firemen. What happens if one day, God forbid, something happens in the county and will our city workers be able to two things happen in the county? Your guys are stretched thin and you need our guys that happens. That happens to happened. Yes, ma'am. And it has happened the opposite way also where they've been meet they need we come into the city on every structure fire within the city. The county does. The county comes to help or the city comes to help us on every structure fire within the five mile range around it. We already have that. So you already Yes, ma'am. You just don't have it on paper.

Exactly. So when you put it on paper, it makes a difference. No, we do have that on paper though. We have a an automatic aid agreement which is signed by both parties, the city and the county, that we have an automatic aid to do this together. Yeah. Okay. And the other one other thing I would that's causing me concern will um since the city our fire department our it's what a two we have a two and you guys have a four.

Yes ma'am. Um I I believe and I I don't know you that well and forgive me for that but I believe if the city is over the entire thing if we decide to consolidate I believe chief will make sure that it stay or two. I don't see chief will be satisfied with it going down whether we're working with you or not. Yes ma'am. I understand that and I agree with that that he would try to keep it that. But I'm telling you by speaking with ISO, the man that come and did all of the the assessments,

you can't do it without putting a lot more into it when you go to a countywide system because our numbers skew your numbers. But then again, I say that is your study. That's that's not for from an expert. That's a fact of what this man does the studies. question. I'm gonna make talk to me. Yes, ma'am. We got to we got to get down [clears throat] to this side too. The last thing I want to know about you said if it loses jobs that would be a problem. Yes, ma'am.

But I I don't see that even happening. Um I know you're going about by what you studied, but like I said before, I would prefer to get that from an expert to tell us, okay, yeah, it's going to cost this this amount of money. you're gonna lose this amount of jobs. You understand what I'm saying? I'm not knocking anything that you have bought for it. But I just would prefer to get someone that's an expert in that area

that and that's your right to vote. All I've done tonight is I wanted to come in and help educate before you go and commit to a $200,000 study. I wanted you to be educated as much as I could give that education so that you decide whether I want to spend this 200,000 on this assessment or if I want to put this 200,000 towards other projects within the city and county. That's all I'm here to do. Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Harris. Coming down this way, we're going to start inside out. Mr. Murphy, let's start at that end. Okay, Miss Young.

Okay. Um, thank you. Um, mayor, I hear and I I understand um what you're saying as far as the $200,000. I I really believe we really need to be sincere about this decision. I don't sincere about the decision even when it comes to making a decision of um spending the 2,000 the $200,000 for for this analysis. Um, and again, what we're going to get is a person who sat down and studied just like this this um, county chief of firemen did. And what I I want to be us to be mindful that it's more than just money here. Um, we have, and I'm saying the city because this is my my family. I don't know much about county firemen. We have a great team here.

You do. Who has our ratings top?

Um, and in order to do that, you have to be a great working team work together. Um, great chief as as was spoken um before. We trust their judgment. [clears throat] Both chiefs really and the teams. We trust their judgments that when if our house burn, they're coming to save our families and to save our homes. We trust their judgments and we have to be mindful that um it's not always about the money. And we can start out saving today. If we consolidate it today, we start out saving today, you can best believe taxes are going to increase. It's definitely going to increase. So, so and and so my question is the analysis, how far out is it? Is it going to take us? Is it going to be two analysis that cover two years? Is it going to cover five years? So, so we're really just looking at a beginning of what it will save us. Spending $200 to get a beginning of what it will save us. But, but I I just want to look more at um not so much the saving of the little cost that it's going to save us because I agree with with the county chief. It's going to save us in one area, but we're going to spend a whole lot more in other areas. So we have to look at the the big picture and I narrow narrow it down to these men who save our homes and our lives. So we have to also um consider their well-being,

their safeties, their families, right? because working say you cons consolidate we may not get this this um team of work like we get now it may bring animosity and I know many people don't look at it this way but we're dealing with human beings so we have to look at the bigger picture than just saving a few dollars there's a lot more to look at yes ma'am and and just so that if you can I Yeah, please just just so y'all all know

this big group of people out that's sitting in this middle here. That's county and city firefighters that are off duty that are here because they're worried about their jobs. They're worried about providing for their families. They're worried about retirement. This this happens. This has happened multiple times. And it's these people out here that's that's getting hurt the most out of all of them. And I thank you for that. Yes. And and they are our city. That's Lake City. That's right. Um that's Lake City. Um these firemen and their families and um we may save a few dollars today, but we'll pay it out in a long run. And I just want us to keep that in mind.

All right. Mr. Phillips, I don't think that uh you were indicating that you wanted to ask any questions. Mr. Carter, [clears throat]

I don't have a question for Chief Crawford specifically, but everybody's kind of been just sharing their opinions and he's there. Um, so I'll just share mine. I think uh governments really enjoy getting studies done and uh consultants like cash and checks, but some things aren't rocket science and some of this seems pretty straightforward to me. Um, right now we know that our city fire department is doing an excellent job. An ISO rating with our size department, with our budget of two is an incredible feat. Um, quite frankly, unless the county like pouring millions more dollars. Four is a pretty pretty solid number for a county of our size spread out the way that it is. Um, and though ostensibly the job is the same, fighting fires, they're two very different jobs, county and city, as far as how you approach them, the sort of problems that you run into on a regular basis. And again, no one needs a study to tell us that. Uh, servicing fires over 800

800

8001 square miles uh is a very different sort of strategy, techniques, etc. training, so on and so forth. Um, again, fire districts very generally, as he said, and I've done quite a bit of research on this myself, are usually something that you make little for specific things. Uh, and again, he he said I was I was going to say this too, the city's fire department is effectively a fire district for the uh area that we have the highest density population. Another thing that I want to take into account here and if we talk about a board whether it be members of us on set board or whether we appoint someone for the board um in the county we also have Fort White you know the city of Fort White or the town of Fort White may have an opinion on who's serving on that board too. Um the long and short of it I'm going to bring it back around just this um I don't see any particular reason to alter any of this at the moment. We have really solid mutual aid agreements between the two fire departments. Uh, from what I can tell, everything I've seen is that they work well together when necessary and the county works well in the county. And the way the county has to work, we know for a fact the city works well. It seems like a bit of a it seems like a punishment, not a reward to this to the to the to the staff that just uh kind of accomplished. Again, you know, we talk to the ISO people, you look at our our city, our size, our budget, the ISO rating of two is remarkable. It really is. So to say, all right, well, good job, guys. Now we're starting all over. That seems like a bit of a a waste of time. I think that we incorporated into a city, we levy our own taxes, we levy own assessments because we get additional services. We get the fire department, we get the police department, uh, and It just seems like a weird sort of antiquated going backwards situation to then open it up and put them in charge

or them in charge of trying to do a very very different job. And I think we can save ourselves $200,000 and put that into an account for the next firetruck when we need one. Uh and uh and and move on. That's I This seems wholly unnecessary. [clears throat] Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ker. Is there any more public comment? Is there any more public comment? No, I don't think so. Mr. Crawford. Yeah. Thank you. Thank y'all for letting me get up and speak tonight. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Okay. Uh and a lot of what Mr. Crawford said, I totally agree being Josh has had numerous conversations relevant to this and uh and it is it does come down I I agree with Mr. Travela 100%. It you got to look at the whole picture. You hit the nail on the head right there. But in the nine years I've been here, this is the third time uh unbe whatever wherever he said the little television that guy over there uh he's wrong. Uh it's all been discussed just like it has been in this public. It's never been put in the hands of people with professional background every dollars can line it up and I'm not going to debate anything. I personally think it's time. It's not fair to all these young guys out here. I don't even recognize who they are both sides. For these guys to be out there trying to build a family and every three years is the way this numbers have worked for the last 25 years on this conversation right here. Every three years it comes up. It's not fair to them young men and young ladies out there trying to build a future for our family to have to worry about this mess. It's time to put this to rest. And this feasibility this feasibility study can be done the first segment. Mr. Mr. Rosenthal, stop me if I'm speaking out of fact here, but this first study is going to determine whether or not it is feasible to even consider this point and then it's going to go into the planning stages that's going to tackle the things that Mr. Crawford and Mr. Wearinger shared with me over the years. But if you're if you're talking about numbers, because that's a lot of what we just heard tonight. Let's look at it this way. I'm not putting the city council on their spot, but uh you got $4.2 million budget there for 13,000 people. You're and I think that number is a little bit low on the population, but population changes to 26. You got 8 million then. Is that is that way you're going to look at it? Because pretty much that's the

way it happened this year on your fire uh assessment. You know, I held back 20 people from coming to this meeting tonight because I want this to take a fair chance. But look at make do if you want to do a study, go call all the We represent the households of this community 100%. But we also represent the businesses in this community that support this place. Go look at the fire assessments that were assessed within the boundaries of the city this past year by the city council and tell me that's fair. That's 100% not fair. And I'm not I'm not I'm trying to make sure I get my point across to everybody. Do your own study. But that's why you pay the professionals to come in here and do this feasibility study. I agree with James 100%. You hear a lot of studies in government, but there's nobody in this room qualified to give us an absolute opinion of what we're asking for out here. We're looking for I'm looking for as one of 10 here. What's the best situation that we can provide for the citizens of Columbia County? We are all as one whole. I'm not I'm not saying city count city and county constituents what's the best for them now and in the future. It's just that simple. I mean that's the task that I think each one elected us to do. We're stewards of the dollar and but as Jeff said, I agree with Jeff 100%. You cannot you got to look at this dollar factor, then you got to look at what you're going to get here. But, you know, if somebody wants to argue the point, I mean, that's that's a gallant point right there. 4 point, you know, 4.2 versus eight. You know, that's that's that's a big that's a big situation. And so that that's just my I I just feel like we owe it to the young men and women that's coming into this

field that I'm glad we're getting new employees each and every day. But we owe it to them to give them some security for their future plans of them and them families because every firefighter in here that's got over 10 years knows I'm speaking the truth that every three years this comes up. Uh lo and behold, the you know our all of our great friend, you know, the late Randy Burnham, the fire chief, you know, he had a plan here. He shared with some of the councilmen and and you know, it was uh he came up with a plan on his own. You know, God rest his soul. He he was never, you know, never able to present it. Don't know if it was good, don't know if it was bad. When he approached me with it, I simply said, "Randy, we'll do it in the public." And of course, me and Randy started out this talk. But uh I think we owe it to the constituents and Mr. Rosenthal if this feasibility comes back and you know it doesn't look at what we're trying to accomplish here.

We're not locked in to keep on going if we wanted to. Correct. Right. Okay. That was the only question I didn't even [laughter] I hate to see you walk all the way just to say yes. Let's find it the other way. But that that's that's Tim Murphy's opinion and I think everybody else has shared theirs because some of the points that Jeff brought up and Josh and the conversation we had I got I got some questions on that but this study is not to solve them questions today. Right.

And uh so you know I work for the people. I'm going do the best job I can for the people. I got constituents within the city limits also. You know and uh that's where it's a little little weird. I represent city constituents as well as county constituents. Thank you, Mr. P. That's it. Um, real quick, um, in order to to give everybody an opportunity, uh, for their opinions, we're going to come back down this way and then, uh, we should have, uh, an idea of the consensus moving forward with or without the study. Okay, Mr. Parnell.

All right. [clears throat] So, uh, just general consensus here, it sounds like we're going towards the the way of the study here. Um, but I I will say and we got to look out for our firefighters like look out for us. And I will say too that if if the study comes back and we're truly, as Mr. Crawford said, and I believe his his study, I thank you for doing the study. If a study comes back and we're going to be losing services for our constituents, either whether it be city or county, then at day one of consolidation, we are at a loss right there. So, we got to take care of our constituents. They got to take care of us and our firefighters as well. So, if there's a way that we can alleviate the stress of them every three years having to deal with this without a consolidation or whatever it looks like, all I know is if we have to cut services to save a dollar, then we're at a loss, right,

for our constituents. We're at loss from day one. That's just my spee. But okay, I'm done with that. I agree. Thank you, Mr. Parnell. Mr. Mr. Ford, I I just have one question. Is this study just going to look at an independent fire district or is it looking at other possibilities of basically consolidation for the city and county. Don, that's a you question. [laughter] Question. The question is again, was it looking at um establishing a fire district or or consolidation? Consolidation.

The study in question is going to be looking at establishing a fire district and whether or not it's feasible to establish a fire district. Some of the questions is the feasibility of doing that. I really don't know whether it's feasible or not, but that's what the feasibility study is going to do and we'll put it to bed once and for all time. Yep, that's right. Mr. Mr. Jernigan, any final thoughts? Yeah. U Can you come back up here, Mr. Roth? Uh, you need to stay up here, y'all. Just hang

you know uh I know you you all about dollars and cents and I totally understand that. Uh however, um have you looked into it? Uh this a study such as this uh did you maybe u another county or another city or another state uh that came uh with this feasible study? Uh have you looked into it yourself personally?

We we've looked into several and it's it's not something that I have the technical expertise to do, but we've had several studies done before. One study, one feasibility study was done and it showed that it didn't it wasn't a good idea to do that. We did another one that showed it was. So, it's six and one and half a dozen the other. I don't know whether or not it's a good idea. That's what the feasibility study is going to tell us.

Yes. But but uh just think about this. $200,000. I guess the county will pay 100,000, the city will pay $100,000. That's $200,000 that we don't, you know, we don't know or don't have an idea. One says yes, the other one says no. I mean, just just think about that. Uh even though I don't I'm not an expert in this, but let's look at it this way. Uh just like Commissioner Murphy said, uh it's all about uh the constituents um that we that we that we serve. And if we've done this already and somebody says yes and other one says no, uh we already know that there's going to be a problem. So that $100,000 or $200,000 that we're going to be spending out there for this study, I I I think that is Uh it's it's a waste of uh taxpayers dollars and I know Mr. Murphy does not like to waste uh money.

So I I I just I'm just trying to I'm lost for words myself because it's not making sense because uh the way the chief came up here and explained everything even though he's not an expert and none of us are experts. Um but the one thing I do have is common sense. So all you need is common sense for the most part and common sense don't cost you $200,000. So I just wanted to put that out there. Thank you, Mr. J. Again, Mr. Ford, do you have final thought? Working our way into what and any final thoughts?

I would just say I'm not against consolidation with the city and the county. I I think at some point it would probably be a good idea. I just don't believe an independent fire district is the way to do it. Thank you, Mr. Ford. M Harris. Um I have I have a question for Mr. um Murphy. Mr. Murphy, you said it has come back three times in the last nine years that you were here. Why do you think that is? So why do I think why do it keep coming back up? Is it because you all have not done a study to know which direction you should go? Why does it keep coming up?

Miss Harris, uh everybody in this room, uh I can definitely stand for Jeff Crawford because I know him. uh he didn't come up here with a he come up here with his opinion, his research, and what have you. And but the truth is is that I I I appreciate everything he and Josh has shared with me over the years, but again, nobody in this room, unless somebody slipped in, I don't know who they are, is qualified to make this assessment. That's all there is to it. And you know that's just it's time to like the uh city manager said it's time to put this in the hand of professionals and let the professionals bring the recommendation. At the end of the day it's still our final decision but you know we took an oath to to to represent the people in this community and this will be the first time in the nine years I've been here that it's ever been done this way. And I think it's just it's the right thing to do. I have one more thing to um say. Let me be very clear when I say this. I am not trying to hurt anybody as far as being on the fire department or none of that. I get it. All right? So, please do not think that I don't want um the people that are working now to continue working. All right? Please don't think that. All right? I just want to know because I've been here one year, Mr. Murphy. And if we could put this to bed while I'm here for these next three years, I'd rather for it to be to bed now versus the next 20 years come up again.

Well, Miss Tammy, I think it's again, and I stress this, I don't know if it'll work or not. Me, Mr. involved. Me Jeff, I mean Josh, I don't have a clue if we can put this deal together or not. But right, if anything else is not settled out of this night, we owe it to the young people coming into this career. We owe them that where they can put I worked at accidental years ago and you know, one day we get pat on the back, go build you a house. Wednesday following we got laid off and I know what kind of stress that puts on a young family. That's that's not right. That's not right.

I agree agree wholeheartedly. I think that we need to put it to bed and uh put the casing over the casket so it doesn't come back up. Uh that way that the the fire departments can can move forward and and and uh take care of our constituency. It's 558. Uh so that's going to conclude this meeting uh right now and then we will come back for our dinner. Did you did you want to share anything before? Sorry. 550 closing statements. [laughter] Closing statements. All right. meeting. Mr. Mayor, I think the meeting should end when the when the two bodies are finished discussing. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. Please. Yes, ma'am. Miss Young.

Yes. I'm I the expert the expert. You know, a expert can come in here and and and share um numbers of of what how an expert see things, but an expert cannot walk in here and tell me what's best for Lake City. He just can't do it. Thank you. closing statement. I haven't said anything, but I want to say a a big shout out to our county fire department as well as the city fire department. I know a lot of the folks in this town. I've been here all my life and I think everything is going well here and I think we do owe it to everybody to get this study done to see what's going on. Absolutely.

Mr. Carter, [clears throat] uh just one final thought. We keep saying that we don't have any experts, but it is my opinion that that man is an expert and that man is an expert. They know the town, they know the fire departments. Uh they do the work with each other and with their own departments. Uh again, like I said, I understand that studies are necessary sometimes. I'm not picking on on engineers and stuff like that, but consultants come in with with the with the real impressive thesaurus and they write I mean they collect really big checks. Lots of times it's necessary because we don't have the engineers on staff, but in this case we've got experts and it is it is my feeling uh that our experts feel like we're operating in a pretty solid situation now. Um, and there are some facts that they're the the the numbers he talked about in the retirement program, those sort of things. Those aren't like we don't know. Those are those are going to be big, messy, ugly things that we could easily avoid by continuing to work together. I don't think that it might not even be a bad idea if we uh that our two bodies create some sort of a committee that is made up of members of both fire departments whose job it is to find ways for them to continue working well together and ways they can work better together. Um I just don't I'm just not seeing I'm just not seeing a purpose or a point and and doing again it keeps coming up. I guess not in the last nine years but if if Mr. Rosenthal be understood in the past we've had studies done that said yes and studies done that said no. So are we looking for a rubber match? Is it a third study that'll give us the tiebreaking vote? I I just don't I don't know that it it just feels like a waste of money and time

that question council. No. Okay. Sorry. Uh so that's that's my opinion. I think we got experts and and I think we've gotten at least some of their I would just have to ask one question. Yes, sir. Nobody. Are we really putting it to bed if we just look at one way to do it? Absolutely. I mean, if if all we're looking at is an independent fire district, that's not the only way to consolidate. True. I mean, you say we're putting to bed one way or the other right now, if we if we do a study on this. True. I'm I'm just saying that I don't think this if you just look at one way to do it, I don't know you putting it to bed. Isn't I mean because there's several ways to consolidate several ways to consolidate.

It's not just the fire independent fire district. It's the only way to do it. So if if if you going to commit $200,000 to a study for an independent fire district. I I just don't agree with that. I think you should look at all possibilities. Absolutely. Just for clarification, Mr. Rosenthal, is it just specifically because it was never That's what I mean. I heard you and you said that. Well, the fire district is is what I was recommending, but it's a feasibility study. Correct. A feasibility study determines whether or not you should do anything at all. Right. So, the feasibility study would put it to bed once and for all time

because I agree with Mr. Ford. You know, when you consolidate it down to, you know, a distinct point. Uh we're looking for feasibility of all possibilities, I guess, is the way you'd word it, you know, and uh but just clarification, James said something caught my attention. Uh the city of Lake City has done these feasibility studies before. I I my experience here is a year and a half. So I anything beyond that I have Okay. I just I because if I that was something that to be that you've been involved in in the past.

I've been involved in Illinois in other places. Okay. I just want to make sure because I I've never heard of such but the uh not saying I didn't you know but the feasibility of the ability to do whatever we're doing here but I think it's uh I agree with Mr. forward 100% restricting it to a district. I think we're uh uh I don't think we'd be doing what's uh the right thing to do for the constituents that I think we need to look at all possibilities because it may not be a district. I don't even know what a district is. So, uh well, we could we can put uh we can attach things to the feasibility to determine different things. So, whatever you whatever you like whether or not it makes sense at all, we really don't know at this point. Mr. Carter, you indicated you had something else.

Just real quick. Uh so, yeah, I guess I misunderstood what you'd said before. Um I thought you were referring to studies in our past. You were referring to studies in year past. So to be clear there, so to be clear, there is no rubber match evidently. Uh however, um

yes, it it obviously I've made it pretty clear how I feel about the need for the study. But if there is going to be a study, and I think everyone's trying to say the same thing here, uh it would just be a feasibility of consolidation. And I don't think that there would be a feasibility of fire district study anyway. someone would come in and look at it and say, "How best would these two departments consolidate?" And then maybe it's a district, maybe it's the city's in charge, the county's in charge, or a whole new thing that isn't something we've talked about. So, I don't I I can't imagine. And if we need to change a little bit of the language, if we do move forward with a study to make it clear that we're just determining the best way to consolidate and if that is of a benefit to us, we we can definitely play with the language and make sure, but but again, just

so Mr. Rosenthal asked for some uh direction for he and and county administration moving forward. So let's do uh just a straw poll coming down the dis and we'll start with you Mr. Parnell [laughter] do the study. I would say do the study. Do the study. If if the stud is just going to be for the feasibility for independent district, I'm against it. I'll say no. No. Don't do the study. Mr. Jigan, [clears throat] I'm with the study

with Parnell. do the study and as long as we can still have the final say so if we then we should be good to go um and we go from there. Exactly. Thank you Mr. Parnell. Come back starting with you Miss Young. We have a final say so we got don't waste the money. Okay. I'm going to say if we do this study like Mr. Pornell said, "As long as we all have the last say so with all of these people that's here trying to make a living and try to make their life go on as it's going right now."

Well, I think $200,000 would be a much better down payment on a future fire truck, but y'all you'll do what you like. Okay. All right. We've got a a consensus. We a majority of both boards said [snorts] that move forward. So that'll come up in both the county and the city meetings coming up for a vote for those items. All right. I believe if there's nothing further, we will adjourn this meeting and we will move on to our city.