City Council - Regular Meeting

Welcome to City of Keen in Focus. Thanks so much for listening. Hello and welcome back to our next episode of City of Keen in Focus. My name is Asa Kramer and I am joined today by Elizabeth Furland, our city manager, and Chief Jason Martin, our fire chief. Hi, you two.

Hello.

Happy Friday. Happy Friday. How's everyone doing today?

Good.

Yeah, doing great. Thank you so much for joining us, Chief. We're glad to have you.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Yeah.

Chief, I'm very sad that you're about to depart the city of Keene. You announced your retirement, effective September 1st of this year. And I know that the time that you have spent in the chief's seat has been really, really productive. You have been a calming force in the department and something that was greatly needed. And I have so much appreciated that. Thank you. You started with the city back in 1998 as a firefighter EMT. Yeah. And then you rose through the ranks over many decades. You became lieutenant in 2006. Yes, yes. captain in 2014, deputy fire chief in 2023. And then I had the honor of promoting you to chief in August of 2024. So talk to us a little bit about your time at the city, the things that you feel made a mark in terms of the work that you've done.

I'll start with, I landed here in the city. I was fresh out of college for firefighting and I was applying all over to get jobs and I landed here in Keene. I did know a couple people in Keene, so I was familiar with it, but I didn't really, I'd never even been to Keene before I got hired. I got here and I started underneath a couple of great officers, Dean Erickson and Arthur Johnson were the officers that got me kind of pointed in the right direction, got me headed on my career. And I spent four years here. And then I decided to go to Burlington, Vermont, because I had buddies from college up there and I'm originally from Vermont. So I thought, well, it's closer to home. And it was fantastic. It was a great place. Burlington is a great city, great department, but I got the opportunity to come back. And that's when I realized, you know, yes, I was closer to where I grew up as home, but Keene was my home. And that was because of the people. And again, the people that set my career in motion and were supportive of me, even when going to Burlington, everybody was supportive of me. And coming back, welcome arms. I mean, that solidified it. Yeah.

Yeah, this community tends to do that. Yeah. No matter how you end up here, it's just people welcome you in and it's hard to leave.

Yeah. And when I did, I was like, wow. Yeah, I missed it. And to get an opportunity to come back, I jumped on it.

That's great. Well, we're really happy you came back.

Me too.

So why are you retiring now?

That's not an easy answer. And it is the right time for me. And when I say time, it's not just about number of years. It's about, it's the right time in my life. I have some personal things going on in my life. Like I have a new grandson that I'd like to spend time with.

How come I have not seen a picture?

I will get you a picture. Yeah. So there's a lot of factors in there that I could go really deep into, but there's some personal things. And I think I feel good where the fire department is.

Yeah.

I think we've come a long way in the last few years.

Yeah.

But I think they're going to be in good hands with whoever gets chosen because the team is strong. So it's a good time. Am I going to miss it? Absolutely. But that's what I want. I don't want to leave upset. I want to leave still loving the place and knowing we're in a good spot.

Yeah, you are such a thoughtful person. In the time that we've worked together, you really do take the time to think things through. And so I know that this was a hard decision for you because you've been doing a great job and people really do love you and they appreciate you. So I know that you Took the time and you really thought about it and determined it was the right time for you. So I know that during your time, we have added eight firefighters, which is huge. Now, before you stepped into the role of chief, we had already added four. But in just a short period of time, there's now 12 additional firefighter positions.

That's huge. Yeah, it's huge. And we added the extra ambulance staff full time. Yes, the third ambulance. Which made a huge difference.

It's really quite historic. We did the swearing in ceremony this week, which was fun. We had a lot of people there. I love doing the swearing in ceremonies because a family is there and they're all excited and taking pictures. It's just a really great time. But I said at the conclusion of that, that this is a historic moment because we've never these many positions in the department. And for a while, we really struggled. I mean, we really struggled. I think the department has come a long way. And one of the key decisions, which was under your leadership, was staffing that third ambulance. I remember at the time, there was so much pressure being applied to the people in the department. They'd come in and there's another call already or multiple calls going on at the same time and not much time to take a break or have a meal or

Yeah, or train or get their paperwork done effectively and take the time to do good reports because that's how we build. That's important.

So staffing that third ambulance was huge. And now I feel like we're one above the minimum staffing level. And that's always really confusing to people to understand. But we had done this gradually. And once we got to enough personnel to man that third ambulance on a regular basis, that was great. But we were covering every shift that someone was out for vacation, for sick time, for personal leave with overtime.

The city made the commitment to staff it, but it came at a very, very big cost.

And the mayor and council have been very supportive.

Absolutely.

All the way through this process. So now, so this swearing in ceremony, that was the last of this bunch. So we got four new positions in this budget that just started July 1st. And so now we are above the minimum staffing level. But talk a little bit about the work that goes on in this training period before we actually can count them as part of Oh, sure.

Yeah. So the four that you're speaking of, they started this week. They do administrative stuff usually the first day or the first two days. And that's working with IT and HR and things to get set up so they can do reports and get onto our system at the fire station. And then we run kind of a small fire academy. With four of them, it's nice because... It actually is more efficient for us to have instructors do all four of them rather than to spread it out. But they go through basically every part of the job that we're going to expect them to do as a new person. That way, we're setting them up for success, not for failure. Like today, they were down at the drill yard in Fitzwilliam doing some live fire training. Already this week, they've gone over their gear. They've gone over their SCBA. They've gone over how to call a mayday. I mean, it's pretty intense, but that's what we need them to do before we count them as manpower.

Right. And they are at different levels.

Before they got hired, we have three basics and one AEMT.

So that is just the different levels of EMS providers. Yeah. And we strive to have paramedics on every shift.

Yes. And we also have a policy that there's a minimum of one on duty all the time.

Yeah, that makes sense.

We make a commitment to have that be at the paramedic level with at least one medic per shift.

Right. The city will provide assistance with training to get employees to the paramedic level, which I think is huge. And we've seen firefighters at the department take advantage of that each year. It's been a benefit for them, but it's also a huge benefit for us.

It sure is. Yeah. We have one gentleman, firefighter Robert Nowell, who's going through paramedic school right now. And then the three newer members that are just EMT basics will have to take their A class before they get off probation, which is a pretty tall task. But they'll get it done. I know they will. We'll support them.

They're motivated. Absolutely. There's also a process of training that they need to go through to be able to drive the trucks, the big expensive equipment that we have.

Yeah, that is true. The big trucks are well over a million dollars each. Even the fire engines are getting close. And the new one that we order is over a million dollars. So to drive one of those, it's a pretty extensive process. And usually a new person or a new member, they might start that process by the end of their first year. But if they don't, that's okay too, because we don't want to speed anything up. So usually after they get off probation is when they start to get checked off as a pump operator driver. Yeah. And it starts with the engines, and then it'll go to the ladder, and then the two big trucks, which is the tanker and the tower.

Over the last year, we've seen more women firefighters coming on the team. That's right. Yep. So we have two firefighters.

We have two line firefighters and we have one that's in the fire prevention. Right.

And an inspection position. Yes. That's great.

Yeah. And they rock it. They do a great job.

That's really great. You don't see a lot of women in the profession. And so I've always wanted that to be more accessible here. And I think the department and you in particular have made it so. So it's nice to see.

Proud of them.

So as you think back about your time here and the people that you've worked with, what are you most proud of?

I think it's taking my whole career and think about it. I think if I put it into stages, there's things that I was proud of, you know, like when I was a firefighter and I was proud of something and then you become a lieutenant. And but I think the most rewarding in it. Sometimes it takes the longest to get satisfaction now that I am in the chief seat is to see the department working as a team, see the positive culture, to see that people like being at work. And that wasn't done overnight. And it took everybody to do that. It wasn't something that one person.

Yeah.

But I think that that's what I'm the most proud of is the way our department operates today.

I would put our team up against anyone, anywhere. They are fabulous. They are well-trained. They are very motivated. They are professional. We are fortunate to have such a professional department here.

Yeah, thank you for noticing that because we are, they care. So when I started in 1998, I think back to some of the people that were in positions. And I know Tom Powers was the police chief when I started.

Counselor Powers. Yes.

What a leader he is.

He's a great leader.

Yep. And getting to know him is wonderful because I was so intimidated by him.

Oh.

Not because he ever did anything. It's just like, wow, that's the police chief. So I also want to say when I started, we only worked out of one fire station. That was before station two was opened. I think I'm the last active person that worked when we only ran out of one station.

Yeah, we have had a lot of people reach retirement age. And so that's why we have so many newer people in the department, which that's great, but it's also a challenge training them. And I know that it took a while before you really felt good about the training program over there. But right now I think it's going quite well.

It is. Yeah. Having somebody in the training position that's motivated and is a go-getter, like not that that wasn't filled before, but there was a lot of transition and it seemed like every person had to start over and do their own thing. And that's not their fault. That's just them getting their feet underneath them. And now we've kind of settled that and we have the same person in there and he's doing a great job. So.

Well, you talked about having two fire stations. Fire Station 2 certainly needs some love. So the fire department moved into Fire Station 2, which was the National Guard Armory. And they were in there, and I think it was originally under a lease agreement. I don't know if we were paying much of anything at the time, but it wasn't our building. And so not much was done because they weren't really motivated to fix it for us. But they didn't mind us being in there because we're a municipal government. And so they were okay with that. But it must have been like 2017, 2018, the state decided that they wanted to dispose of the building and transfer it to the city. And we're like, great, we might be able to start to do something with the building now if we own it. Funny story about that. If anyone has gone by Fire Station 2, this former armory building, I don't think it's very aesthetically pleasing or anything special. But at the time, there was a push at the state level for us to treat it as a historic building. And that would mean like all sorts of preservation things, which means all sorts of additional costs. And fortunately, we were able to convince them there wasn't anything really great about this armory buildings. So now we have the building and we've done some minor repairs to it, but we've also done a couple of evaluations at the site in terms of needs. But one of the other things that happened recently is we were able to work with the hospital under our payment in lieu of tax agreement to carve off a piece of their property, an acre, on Maple Ave for the future Fire Station 2 site.

Yeah, that's awesome.

And what's so great about that is I can't even imagine trying to renovate that old National Guard building with us operating out of it. And with a new site, we're able to actually build a new facility and continue to operate. And then in the future, the council will be talking about what to do with that property. And it's in a great residential neighborhood. And I think that it would be a great residential development project someday. So... Right now, we just need money. Yeah. And so I know you have been looking really hard for some grants to help us. And the next step really is to go back and do some preliminary design work at this new location. And we've been searching for grants. We just haven't gotten any yet.

I know Deputy City Manager Bohannon's been looking constantly for grants.

We'll get it. We'll get one.

But that is a great deal. Like you said, the cost to renovate was too much.

Yeah, it was crazy.

But we can build while still staying in it. That would be a huge cost to make a temporary station just to tear down when we're done.

And ultimately, it will be decision of the council what to do with the property.

But that also could be some revenue back to the city if it becomes a residential development out there and depending on how it's structured.

So in addition to not having to go through the major renovation and the costs associated with it, we've got the property donated to the city for the new location. And now we're lined up for the future to potentially have a project out there.

Yep.

To help with the housing stock, but also to bring some additional revenue back in. That makes sense. That's right. So what's the hardest part about leaving?

Looking towards the future is nice.

Yeah.

I think having a little bit of regret or a little worry how much I'm going to miss it. There's always some of that. Because that's unknown, right? I don't know that. That's the hardest part. Like I said, I think the next chapter will be just fine once I get going, but I know I'm going to miss the people. I know I'm going to miss the job. I'm going to say maybe I should have stayed, but I'm also pretty confident that this is the right time.

Well, you've lived it 24-7, right? I mean, you've really lived it. And so it's hard to leave. But let me just share something with you. You're not the only one recently to be considering whether or not they should retire. And over the last few years, we've had longtime department heads retire. They struggled with the same thing.

Sure.

So Patty Little, the city clerk, she just went back and forth about it. She knew it was the right time, but still she had this like, I don't, am I doing the right thing? And she is so happy now.

I'm glad to hear.

So happy now. Everybody goes through this, like, I don't know if I should do it because I do love my job and I love the people. But then when they do it, they're like, oh my God, I should have done it. Just from the stress and the work gives you more time to do things if you want to do something entirely different, to travel, spend time with family. So what you're feeling right now is very normal. But I promise you, when you get to the other side, you will be happy.

I think so.

The other thing about retirement is you have to come back and visit.

Oh, I will.

You have to still be around. Yeah, I will. It's a requirement around here. Good. Well, thank you, Jason. Really appreciate everything you have done. We've had some difficult challenges to work through during your time and you have done it and you have done it very well. And I very much appreciate that.

Yeah, thank you. And it's been an honor to sit in the seat and tackle some of those challenges.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Now we get to talk about last night's meeting. That's right. It was so quick. It was quick. So we didn't really have a ton on the agenda. And Councilor Greenwald stepped in for the mayor, who's on a fabulous vacation. Oh, good for him. Yeah, with family. And so I'm hoping he's having a wonderful time. Although I will tell you, he's emailed me a couple And I'm like, go back and enjoy your vacation. So it was a quick meeting. Councilor Greenwald did a great job. It's not his first time in that chair. Obviously, he's been chair of committees many times, but he's also sat in to fill in for the mayor many times in the past as well. And so we got a few things accomplished last night. Most of them were pretty standard. One item that was voted on last night was the tax incentive, the 79E tax incentive for 429 Elm Street. And that was a first. So we've had 79E in the city for a while, but the law had changed at few years ago to allow 79E for residential property. And so we just put this program together. The council adopted it, I would say, I don't know, sometime last year, late last year. And so this was the first application. And so it works similar to 79E in the original form. And basically what 79E is, it's a deferment of increased taxes. So it doesn't decrease your taxes. It But it defers some or a portion of the increase as a result of the work you're doing. So in the regular 7090, that work is commercial buildings. It could be, well, the Marlboro Street project, that housing project on Marlboro Street, 310 Marlboro. That project used 70-90 twice, one for the first phase and once again for the second phase. And so you take the value at the time of the work and it stays there. So it doesn't increase even though your work is done. So you've invested however much much money in the building, which would typically increase the value of the building, it's deferred. And it's deferred for an amount of time determined by the city council. There are some parameters to that. I don't think that they have ever agreed to more than five years. Five years has been the typical term for a 79E commercial project. This 79E project last night received a four-year deferment. The reason for that is the parameters are a little different under the residential program. And there's a clause in there that talks about an additional two years if you create a housing unit. And because this is creating two housing units, the council felt that it should get four years. So the two years for each one. But there was a lot of conversation moving through this project and this application because, one, the project had already started. So one of the questions was, is it even eligible? It had already begun work. And so what was determined is that it's eligible, but not for the work that they had already done. So once it got approved last night, now the value is set. So the work that they had done up till last night is part of their value and it has increased. But moving forward now for four years, it'll freeze at that level. So they're expecting to do, I think, another $200,000 of investment on this property. They're taking a barn. and converting it into two residential units. The property already has a house on it, which has three residential units. And so overall, it's going from three to five. And so that was the first one last night. And there was a lot of really good questions through this process and trying to understand exactly what the parameters are. And I can tell you that the state law didn't make it easy. We understand what the intent was, but it was a little clunky with some of the language in the state law. And so we've talked about maybe putting forth some changes during this legislative session to clarify a couple of things that made it more challenging for us to process this application. Last night, there was the usual items from FOP, some contract change orders. the biggest thing I think from FOP was the changes to tax credits and exemptions. And so we look at tax credit and exemptions every five years. And the reason for that is we tie it to our revaluation process, which makes sense. So If you are currently getting an elderly exemption or a veteran tax credit, but now your value changes, if the value of the credit doesn't also change, it doesn't keep up. And so the goal is to keep it level with where it was before you do the reval. And so our city assessor, Dan Langell, came in explained that at FOP and went through the different categories of tax credits and exemptions and adjusted them by approximately 60% because he believes that housing values will probably increase by 60%. I know it's a huge number. The audience cannot see your face, but I can. I know. But if you think about it, if you're on a home hearing key and you go to the city's website and you look at what your assessment is and then go and the city assessor hates it when I do this, but it's so true. Then go to Zillow, the Zillow app, enter your address into Zillow app and come up with a value for your property. I will guarantee you it's nowhere near what we're assessing you for because the housing market has changed so much over the past five years. It makes sense that values are going to go up and residential values are going to go up more than commercial values. And we've been talking about that for a while now. That's one of the things that really worries me. It's one of the things that when people ask, what keeps you up at night? This is one of the things because, you know, the housing market has been crazy. And before we had this surge in housing values, there was a pretty good balance between commercial and residential property. And now it's just shifting. And what happens when you shift the values and the way that the state of New Hampshire allows towns and cities to collect revenue is primarily through taxation, and it's based on your assessed value. So residential properties are going to pay a bigger piece of the pie because if all else stays the same, it just gets shifted. And so that really worries me. That worries me. And the other thing is just the The same issues that people are feeling at home in terms of rising costs are the same things that we're seeing at Citi. So between those two things, I'm definitely concerned about moving forward and what that is going to mean. But it's something that we're going to have to keep talking about. And the tax credits and exemptions, I think, is probably the first of many conversations around that topic. Last night, they also added a new credit, and it's a new veterans credit. It's a little bit different than the others because it's really aimed at people who are serving during wartime who are in the National Guard or some other reserve unit like that, and it allows for a tax credit while they are serving. So that's tricky because if they're serving, they probably are not paying attention to what's happening at their hometown related to their tax credits. And so it's going to be tough, but we are going to try and push some social media out and get the word out as best we can. Now, the thing about that tax credit is you can only have one or the other and you can't stack them with this one. So this one is, if you get this one, you don't get the regular veterans tax credit. So it's not going to be a very large audience because many of the people are already receiving the other, but it's another opportunity to recognize the people who are serving for all of us. And so I think it's a great thing that they did. They adopted that and we'll do the best we can to get the word out. So during managers update, you know, each council meeting, I provide just a really brief update to the council on some of the projects that we are working on. And the last couple of meetings, I've provided a update on the airport solar project. It's a big project. It's a five megawatt solar project. I think it's going to be one of the largest municipally owned solar project in the state of New Hampshire. So it's a big deal. And it's net metering project. And we've been working with the town of Swansea and the county to partner with them on these tax credits. And that could be a whole podcast on its own talking about how this is structured, how it's financed and how it all works. But in essence, we put the power into the grid and then we get a tax credit for it. That credit offsets the city's power bills. So the bills that we have for all of our facilities, all of our streetlights, all of the lighting utility, the electric bills, they receive a credit. But we will have... more credits at times than we have electricity because we just don't have five megawatts worth of power that we're using, which is good. So then you have to partner up with other and it has to be a government or municipal, so town or county. For these net metering credits, I've talked to both Town of Swansea and the county, and they are both interested in partnering with us. So that's going to make this project even better because not only is it a great project for the city of Keene, but it will bring some benefit to the Town of Swansea and the county as well. And when you sign up for these net metering agreements, it's really no risk at all because they get to continue to buy power wherever they're buying power. We're just talking about this credit. So if they are getting their power through a third-party agreement, if they're part of the community power program, they can still do that. Those decisions are entirely up to them. They are just going to get a credit for a portion of the tax credit value. And so the I need to match up how much power each municipality or county has. And so Swansea doesn't have a ton of power, but they are still interested because it would be some additional revenue for them. The county has a lot of power, so they are much larger than us. And so I'm excited about finalizing those agreements. We just have had preliminary conversations. They've indicated their interest, and now we're working out all the details. So those net metering agreements are with the city attorney. There was a couple of requests made by the county that I have agreed to in the language. And so she's just working her way through that. But this is a great project. And if all goes well, we will be up and running next year in 2027, probably late in 2027. Because this project is at the airport, we've had a lot of additional hoops to jump through. With the FAA, there's been some DES, some wetlands. We even had a protected bird out there. So there are lots of things that we've had to work around and adjust to. And I think we're in a pretty good place right now. We got our site plan approval from the town of Swansea. That was a big step for us. Because even though it's our airport and our project, it's not in Keene. We are in Swansea. So we needed to go through their regulatory process. And they have been wonderful to work with and working with us to get us where we're at. And so I've talked at the last couple of meetings about tax credits and how that might bring back to the city about $2.9 million if we're successful jumping through a bunch of other hoops. which so far we are. And I think it would be great at some point to get the airport director in here. We can talk about that and kind of try to walk through it. How do you structure these things? What's the difference between net metering versus behind the meter? How do you get these tax credits, which, by the way, not going to be able to get unless they reinstate them at some point in the future or they're being phased out. So we worked really hard in 2025, by the end of 2025, to try to safe harbor our tax credits. And I think so far we're in a pretty good place, but there's a lot to it. So I gave a Other thing I talked about that might be of interest is DART. The helicopter associated with Dartmouth called DART is going to start a trial with us at the airport. They are going to do what's called day basing, which means having their helicopter there. We don't know which days of the week. We don't have all of those specifics yet. But having that helicopter there a few days a week so that they can respond to emergencies in the Monadnock region, This is very exciting. The Sentinel was interested in, are we paying them to do that? No, we are not. Are they paying us to do that? No, they are not. They are leasing their space from the FBO, which is the fixed space operator. Monanak Aviation is temporarily leasing space to them. And if this project is successful, if this trial is successful, they will then consider a permanent structure of their own or renting from someone else who has a hangar there. So there's lots of possibilities, but it is exciting. And so having them there, I'm hoping, will be a successful experiment. So nothing is locked in. There's no obligation from the city. There's no obligation from the the airport. There's no payment for them to be there. It's just something that makes financial sense to them. And also it makes sense to them in terms of the EMS response. And so that should be beginning, I think, next week. We should see them there. We'll see in the coming months if this is something that's going to stay long term. That's great.

A lot of really exciting news from the airport. Yeah, lots of changes.

That's great. I think those are the major items I briefly mentioned during the 79E conversation, putting forward some legislative changes to help address some of the things that we found problematic when trying to implement the residential 79E program. At the same time, I asked the community development department to give me a list of things that maybe we could change to make permitting easier. And they gave me a great list. So they gave me several RSAs that, if amended, would allow us to move through the permitting process quicker. It would allow more administrative review of things. And so we are going to be having a meeting with Senator Fenton, who every year, he's great. He asks us, do you have something? Do you have something for me? And So every year I usually do have something for him. And so we've got a few. And this year, they're really all about zoning and permitting and the 70-90s so far. We'll see if we come up with anything else. But after we meet, I can talk a little bit more on a future podcast about the specific recommendations for changes and which might be moving forward and after we have the conversation. I do know that Councilor Jones, who is also a member of the House of Representatives, is also seeking ideas for potential legislative changes. And Councilor Fabulis had submitted one to him about body-worn camera funding. So when we put our body-worn camera program together, it was because we were able to get most of it through funding, so through a grant. And Now, I cannot believe it's time to think about replacing it, and it's expensive. So, Councilor Favalese would love to see some state funding for towns and cities to be able to keep their Body One Camera programs running because it is expensive. But I will tell you that the police department loves having the Body One Camera program and the in-car videos available. It took a little while to get used to, you know, making sure they're turned on and the technology and how it works. But they really do like it. I don't think that they would ever want to go back from not having it. It's helpful when you're doing a report. It's helpful if there's a complaint. Yeah, we've gotten complaints and we've had the video to go back to, which has been super helpful. So that and the public likes it. You know, maybe not everybody, but the majority of the public likes it because they're interacting with the police officer, but they know it's being recorded. And so it's a protection for them as well. So it provides great transparency. It's something the police department really enjoys having. And so we have to find a way to continue to fund it. So I don't know how successful I counsel our families and Representative Jones, Counselor Jones. Will be, but I'll certainly help them as much as I can to try and find a way to fund that program because it does bring a lot of value to the city.

Well, great. Yeah, that's awesome. So I will encourage everyone to go to keeninh.gov slash jobs and check out the open positions there. I'll mention community night is coming up August 18th from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. 4 p.m. to 5 p.m. is a sensory hour where there won't be honking. So if you want to come when it's a little more quiet, that's a good time to come. So with the downtown project, you may have seen Liberty Utilities out there this past week, which is great. July 27th, that's the last Monday in July, Casella is going to be starting the actual construction. Construction. Construction. Yeah. Which is really exciting.

Yeah. That was another update last night to the council. When a construction company does a big project like this, they need a staging area. I know that doesn't sound important, but it is important. It needs to be in close proximity to the project and finding one can be a challenge. So we had identified a vacant lot on Gilbo Ave. It's at the end of Gilbo Ave. And we've been working with the property owners to sign the access agreement. You'll see some activity there first before they even start digging in the ground. They'll be on Gilbo Ave with some fencing, putting up fencing and fencing off that entire parcel.

So that is exciting that that is starting July 27th. Well, great. We will wrap up for today and we will see you next time. Thanks for listening to City of Keene and Focus. We'll see you next time.