Planning and Development Board - Regular Meeting

All right. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, I now call to order the November 4th, 2025 board of zoning appeals meeting. My name is David Barkin. Other board members present are Donna Fleming, Michael Cannon, and uh, Andre Gardner. I, myself, and Barkin. Uh, as far as safety instructions, in case of emergencies, uh, be mindful of your exits, one in the rear, one in the front. Uh, as far as tonight's meeting goes. You still want to? Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, we'll start with appeal number 3295, which, uh, is Cuga Park Lane, presented by Whidom Planning and Design. Uh, so whenever that applicant is ready, we'll let them into the room. They'll then present their case. Hello everyone.

Hey sir, whenever you're ready, uh please take you know 5 to 10 minutes and uh walk us through your changes from this.

Sure. So, uh, we were in front of the board, um, two months ago, um, with a full, uh, signed package for the CUGA Park, uh, development project. Um, and we received approval for some of the some signs that we um were very happy that the the board granted approval for the variances um to allow for the on building signage and the main gateway sign. Um the five signs circled here in red uh we did not get approval for. Um I'm sorry.

Four on the left side of the page. Excuse me, sir. We weren't hearing you. Do you mind just starting from the top? We were We had audio delays on our side.

Oh, apologies. Uh my internet might be a little spotty. I'll turn my camera off. Um yeah, so we were uh here in front of the board uh two months ago. Um we received approval for several of the signs in the the sign package that we we brought forward. um did not get approval for five of the signs uh shown here on the screen circled in red. Um the the four on the left were um wayfinding signs uh which were sort of tall uh flagpoleshaped signs uh to get them out of the uh line of sight of uh cars and pedestrians. Um the one on the right was a large monument sign. So based on the board's comments, um we have redesigned those five signs. They're now all the same uh approximately the same size. Um we're no longer proposing the large monument sign. It's it's now part of the wayfinding sign package. Um, and we've brought the scale much further down uh to be more uh closely in line with uh what would be allowable per code. Uh, but we do still require variances for these signs.

So, this is the sign. Sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I thought you paused. Yeah. Please show us the signs.

Yeah. So this is the um this was a secondary large uh monumental gateway sign at the third street entrance uh next to the uh market view building. Um we've scaled that down to and this is an example of the new family of wavefinding signs that all of the wavefinding signs now sort of follow this same scale and character of a low sign with two posts. Um, this one is set back from the the property lines uh quite a bit as is required by code on the corner here. Um, you'll see that the other signs we've adjusted the locations a little bit to account for the lower um height so that these are not in conflict with these are located at each of the intersections throughout the site. So they're at all of the decision-making points. Um this is sort of the odd one out where it's a an L-shaped sign. Um so while the others are just uh two posts, this has three posts um and four faces to the sign. That's because as a four-way intersection, uh that's the only way to make um the directional information on here visible from all of the directions that that someone would be approaching from. So that's what this L-shaped sign looks like just for a better picture of what we're proposing. And then again, as you go down CGA Park Lane, another intersection, another decision point, and another sign set in a location where it does not conflict with the pedestrians. And the final sign here uh is shown in the rendering. Um, you'll see this is the the signage that you would see coming from Route 13. Uh, the approved

on building signage in the background and the monument sign in the foreground. Uh, and you can see that we've matched sort of that same character of material. Uh, the black panel um, which helps create a clear contrast. Uh, for these we have elevations and dimensions. each of the sign faces in detail included. Um, and just as a reminder, this this is the the previous design that was um tabled at the at the last meeting. So, you can see we haven't varied the the style so much as as we have brought it down in form and brought it low to the ground um in response to the concerns that we heard from the board two months ago. Uh that's all we have for a presentation. Um, happy to answer any questions.

Thank you. Uh, any questions from board members? Okay. Um, I don't have any questions either. Thank you for presenting. I guess did we close public hearing at the last round? Okay. Do we need to have another Okay. Uh, so I guess with that, since we don't have any questions, we're going to enter deliberation. Um, board members, any thoughts, comments, concerns? Same. Yeah, they seem reasonable and tasteful and fitting to the site.

Okay, Andre, I agree with that feedback. Uh, with that, is there anybody interested in making a motion to either approve or deny?

Okay.

All right. Uh, I am making a motion to grant variance number 3295 for Kyuga Park signage. The factors considered were the environmental impact. Um we've considered appropriate environmental redo and determine the variance request will have no negative impacts on the environment. The size size of the sign. The side the signs are proportionate to the site. Um they're the appropriate distance. They can they are easily legible. Um this is different from our other resolutions. The number the number of letters is good on the signs. Um so they're easy to read and the cont the existing signs in the vicinity were taken into consideration. So, there's a mix of signs uh that are but they're consistent with one another and they're all appropriate to the site. The site already has an existing sign variance that to allow additional building signs, two of which exceeds 50 square ft at the medical office building and another sign on at the apartments. The proposed use shall not be detrimental to the general amenity of the neighborhood character, will not cause a devaluation of the neighborhood property or material inconvenience to neighbors. Um the project site is surrounded by the market district which was recently established to help imple implement the city of water city of Ithaca waterfront plan. It's expected to see significant redevelopment and change in the coming years. So this project will be the first of several that will transform the area

into a more vibrant mixeduse area. The site is across from Route 13 is across from Route 13. The site is located across Route 13 from a predominantly residential neighborhood. And the sixth feature uh factor is that the public interest is protected through the maintenance of open spaces, views and vistas which were taken into consideration and this signage will not negatively affect those things. So moved. Second. Seconded by Mike Megan.

All right. Mr. Cannon is Fleming. Yes, Mr. Gardner. Yes. And Mr. Barkin. Yes. All right. Um, so your sign variance has been granted. We will get this written up and um we'll send it over to you um as well as the building division so you can begin um moving forward with the sign permit. Thank you everybody. Thank you for your time. Thank you. All right, moving on. That'll bring us to appeal number Um zone 257 I guess that's a new okay

uh which is 402 South Albany Street located in R3A. applicant is Brian Coleman.

Good evening everyone. Uh thank you for the opportunity to be here. My name is Brian Coleman. I'm the New York State director for St. John's Community Services and I'm here tonight regarding our property at 402 South Alb Street in the city of Itha. Um so uh St. John's Community Services operates a New York State Oasis certified uh residence for individuals who are in recovery from substance use disorder. Uh that uh property currently has a uh capacity of nine um beds. And so that's in alignment with the uh current certificate of occupancy that's in place for that building. And so um the property actually has 11 rooms in it. Uh and so two of them we are not using at this time. And so we applied for a revision to that certificate of occupancy to allow us to increase to the 11 beds in the facility. um and uh um are here today requesting a parking variance associated associated uh with that request. So um from a parking standpoint um we uh the residence is staffed 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Uh and generally our staffing consists of one staff person who is on shift at a given time. Uh so we do not have um you know a large number of cars uh generally that are at the uh at the property. Um as far as our residents um generally they are uh either walking or taking bicycles to where it is that they need to go uh whether it's appointments, grocery store, things of that nature. Uh in the year that we've been operating, we've had one resident who had a vehicle. Uh so you know we have not seen a a significant demand uh as far as parking space um

uh for residents. Um parking that is available on site on the property. We have um and I did submit some uh photos previously. Um there is a driveway on the South Albany Street side and there's a driveway on the center street side and then uh it's also paved down the side of the uh the building as far as the uh parking that's available on site uh on the property. Um so at this point I'll uh turn it over to you for any questions.

Board members. So on the your existing parking and just to step back, I I do support this variance request. Uh from looking at the site, it doesn't appear that you guys actually have five legal parking spaces and the city has been cracking down on parking spaces that aren't really meet the requirements of a parking space. I think Megan, if you want to provide some input, I think it would make sense to give them a variance for a more realistic number of parking spaces because I'm pretty sure everything on the center street side there would not legally count as a parking space. Okay,

give me just a minute or two to look into the exact count. I have a question. Uh, do you have the square footage of the bedrooms that you'd like to put into rotation? Yes. Yep. So, the building division came out and measured them. Uh, and so, uh, each of the two bedrooms um has, oh goodness, um has the minimum of 85 square feet uh in each of those um uh bedrooms that we're looking to bring on uh bring online. The house in total is 4,000 square feet. 2,000 on the first floor, 2,000 on the second floor. So, are the bedrooms greater than 119 square feet or no? Uh yes, I believe they are.

Cool. Okay. [clears throat]

Uh it's 81 square foot for one occupant, two occupants 119 and up. So we just you just want to make sure that they get the max allowable occupancy out of this. That's all. So I will note that occupancy in the zone or the it's um based on the bedroom count. So whether they put two people in the bedroom or not, it's um based on the number of bedrooms that they can use. Um

yeah, all of our bedrooms are single uh single person. So we have 11 bedrooms. We're just only currently using nine. So to answer Andre's question, I believe that um they were already in the past granted a variance for other parking spaces. It's just to in increase it beyond what they to what they would to use all of the rooms. So, um this would be basically increasing the need for additional parking and [clears throat] they um I believe they already have a couple variances in place for other the lower level of parking, but you're right. I count um four spaces on site because there's one on um there's one on the one side of the building. There's two parallel to the house along the street there and then there's one that's perpendicular to center. So

they need variances for if they didn't have any variances today. How many variances? How many parking spaces would they need a variance for? Two. No, sorry. So, they have grant they have established without variances or how many parking spaces have they been given variances for in the past? Um, I am pulling up. Sorry, my computer's not loading very well, but they do have two past variances. Um, I am counting what I would consider four legal parking spaces on site now.

Okay. Um though they can technically probably fit more cars than that. But four legal spaces, the two nose totail running parallel to the street, the one where you pull in and then there's another drive, I believe. Uh Mr. Coleman, correct me if I'm wrong. There's another drive on the opposite side of the house, not the corner side, but um that may have even two depending on the depth. Actually, let me check that one. Yeah, there's one on the on the South Albany side that if you're facing the house is to the left of the house.

I just I guess the Sorry, the question is is just how many how many spots total should we give in relief so that you're totally in the clear? Correct. So if on the chart it says five and you need eight or how many do you need? Because the cleanest thing to do would be to just give them a variance for eight parking spaces total. The ones on Center Street definitely.

How many residents actually drive? I'm sorry, what was the question? How many residents drive? I think you said I didn't hear it before. We don't have any residents currently that have vehicles in the year that the program has been operating. We had one one resident who had a vehicle. We'd have two. No sit down. I'm not I just if this if the building department says these aren't legal parking spaces, they'll have to come right back. So yeah. Yeah. And in your materials, you also said that the staff typically don't fill up the space, the existing spaces either. Is that right? That's correct. Yep. I've never I've seen one truck there before. So,

yeah, we have we have generally have single staffing on and so and not all of our staff drives. So, um usually uh we have one perhaps two vehicles um on site if we have a second staff person there for meetings or things of that nature.

Okay. So technically, [clears throat] as of now, there are five legal spaces on site. So whether or not they use them all this way, they technically meet the requirements. So [clears throat] there's on the side between 402 and 404, there are two legal tandem spaces where they can pull in and park nose to tail. There is one at the rear of the property which is perpendicular to Center Street to pull in and then there are two parallel to Center Street. Now, while we wouldn't allow those to be constructed today in the front yard, they do have established rights to be located there. Um, so they do have five legal spaces on site.

Okay. So, you're comfortable if we pass this as is, they're not going to have future issues with with an inspection around this? No, I don't believe they will. Should they um ever do renovations inside the the building to maybe uh reduce some of the bedroom sizes so they can have more occupancy with uh we could have a conversation at that point in time to see what we could do. All right, I'm going to open the public hearing for this appeal. Is there anybody here to speak in favor or opposition? Okay. Yeah, we don't have anyone signed up to speak um this evening either in person or remotely and we have not received any written comments regarding this appeal.

Okay, with that I will close the public hearing. Is there anybody that would like to make a motion?

Okay. Uh, I'll make a motion to grant variance uh number zone 25-7 for 402 South Albany Street. So, factors considered, whether whether or not there's an undesirable change to the neighborhood, uh, no, it won't produce an undesirable change. Uh, a majority of the tenants that have lived at this property have never owned a car. So, adding additional occupants won't increase car traffic. Is there a feasible alternative? Uh, no. There's no viable area to add additional parking spaces. Whether or not the variance request is substantial? Uh, no. there won't be any physical change to the property and only light additional population in the neighborhood will have an adverse impact on the neighborhood character. Uh no, we don't find any evidence for that. And uh is the difficulty self-created? Uh yes, by nature, but we think the benefit that they're seeking justifies the any potential costs.

All right, I'll second that. Megan, please hold board members. Mr. Cannon. Miss Fleming, yes. Mr. Gardner, yes. Mr. Markin, yes. All right. Thank you, Mr. Holman. Your variance has been approved. Um, we will write this up and uh get it to the building division so you can finalize your certificate of compliance with the updated occupancy. So, thank you. Take care. Thank you. Have a good evening.

All right. Moving right along. Preliminary presentations. 402 West Court Street, the former Red and White Cafe. Good evening all. My name is Lesen McDine Clearborn and I am the director at Gak. I know some of you I don't know everyone. Um and we're just here because we wanted to share with you uh preliminary information um on our plans for the Red and White Cafe. Just a little quick background. you're not here all night. Um, uh, several years ago, the owners of Red and White were attempting to sell it and they had reached out to us. We couldn't do it at that time. In 2023, they let us know that they were once again selling it and it came at an opportune time for us because we um had been running a teen catering program. um wonderful micro entrepreneurship program for teens providing all sorts of you know business sense um job training skills etc. One of the things we found many years ago um is that there were several teens who for whatever reason were not doing well at school. They weren't pro problems at

home, etc., etc. And one of the things they were interested in is cooking and in true GIA form. Said, "Here's what we'll do. You like to cook. We have a kitchen. We'll bring you in, but in exchange, you have to finish school and you have to make good with your parents. Go back home. Don't be couch surfing." All of those things. That's pretty much how we do most of our programs. This all happens. um our licensing through OCFS for youth program which is our well our second largest program and I say it's the largest or seniors get upset because they're the largest program um didn't allow for so much mixing and mingling of older teens, anybody 13 and above with our younger uh children. So they couldn't be in the building doing that. and we pretty much had to stop the catering program. They did a little bit on weekends, but we couldn't really do it. We didn't have the space. So when this uh cafe came about um we thought what a wonderful opportunities within the vicinity of Gak that we can create space for exactly that in a building that was already set up for cafe and cooking and uh training and so on and so forth. We met with um and so we we bought the building with and then we met last week two weeks ago I believe I can't remember with um planning saying before we go any further let's make sure we understand um what sort of zoning what do we need to do um to make sure we we maintain sort of the iconic and historic um part of this because it has been it's been sitting there for since the 1950s is my

understanding. Started as a convenience store and then converted into a cafe. And um we were a little bit surprised [laughter] or taken back. So we're glad we met with planning understanding that um the I don't even know the correct word. So Megan, you might help me. the what it was zoned for um wasn't what it was operating as something like that. But it' been operating for many many years. So before we went any further, I'm so glad that we met with planning. we got all of the information that we needed and we thought rather than we knew that we'll have to you know appear before you all and for uh you know appeal for some variances. Um a lot of folks don't realize that GX is a department of the city of Ithaca. So all of these assets become assets of the city of Ithaca and the city staff that's working in it, the city programs, all of those things, insurance um under the city uh umbrella as well. Um so we thought that before and you know with the help and guidance of planning the first time that you see us is when we're here asking for variances that we might give you just a preliminary um you know preview of what we plan to do with this facility. Um let me introduce Caroline O'Donnell who has is the architect who has been working with us. um Caroline and her partner um Iris um their firm have been working with us and helping us to get renderings so that we can apply for grants and so on and so forth. So I will stop talking and I'll let Caroline uh do the rest.

Thank you. Hi everyone. Um as Leslie said, I'm um Caroline O'Donnell and I work with Iris Ma who is I believe is online somewhere. Um hi Iris. Um I'm just gonna really quickly give you a um kind of overview um of yeah what what our hopes and dreams are for this site and hopefully get some feedback so that we can come back as soon as possible ideally January for um um actual variances but hopefully your feedback today would be really helpful. Um so this is the site about a year ago last winter. Um and I'll I'll give you a little bit of a location if I can move these slides. I I just want to note that uh

Oh, that's me crying. [laughter] has been very uh humble, but um she's done a lot of work and her team has done a lot of work to get us this far already in terms of the the project funding, but here we are. This is um Court Street and Plain Street. I'm sure you're all familiar with uh the Red and White Cafe on this corner. uh hasn't been operating for a few years um but as Leslie mentioned was operating for many years as a cafe and then it's within this obviously within this GK kind of complex. There's the new rec center here um Gak headquarters and the Alex Haley pool. So it's and basketball court

and the basketball court and the park um at the corner of this broader neighborhood that Gak is serving. Um, this is the same same information in a more official city map. So, here we are at the corner. Um, and so we're in an R2B zoning district. This is the survey map. Uh, it's 402 Westport Street. Um so the the proposal is that uh this is just a reference image but that it gets returned to a kind of cafe program but also has this culinary arts um component the education component as well. Um so bringing that kind of life back to the neighborhood. So going from something uh like this in the current situation. Um, but also noting, you know, I think originally we had hoped to rehabilitate, but the building's in quite a bad state of disrepair. And these are some shots from the the backside and then more close-ups of the um plain street side. So, you can see quite a lot of of um of water damage and disrepair. Um we were advised uh from Tatum to um demolish the existing building and construct a new building in its place. And so we're looking at this is the current footprint um just uh made graphic in in plan in 3D. So current footprint um current setbacks uh square footage around 2400 footprint and then a little second floor of about 550 square feet. the if we uh rebuild by per the zoning these are the the setbacks that you'll be familiar with five feet 10 feet uh 35% allowable lot coverage and three floors so this is what we estimate something like this um what we're hoping we can do is to keep the existing

footprint uh a little bit less you can see on the left side kind of shaved off there um a few inches to make that the five foot setback otherwise pretty similar to the existing footprint. Um and then the second level um similar but not the entire entirety of this second floor. Uh so that uh proposed maintains existing footprint except for the western edge at two stories and including a roof deck would make it come in a little under the um what would be allowed square footage per the zoning. Um, and of course the character, the appearance being uh reminiscent in in color and form of the existing building. Um, and then some other details that we might want to discuss either now or next time we come back. Things like um these those are south facing um slopes. So we could put solar panels, we could have skylights, a possible basement for storage. um opening a little orienting more to the the corner to the Plain Street and Court Street corner, leaving space for a mural. Um and then the question of parking is certainly a question to be discussed at some point. Um and so this is the proposed the rendering of the proposed um new building. So I can toggle back and forth if you'd like, but you know, old building, new building. Um so hopefully you can see those similarities. I I have a rough uh plan uh set of plans. So on the left is the lower floor which is cafe and teaching space and kitchen. Um so this is the rear yard here existing. Uh so we have elevators uh bathrooms stair to the second level. Uh space for for trash cans in the in the rear yard. something potentially to

be discussed. And then upstairs classrooms and offices and uh mechanical space as well as a little uh a little outdoor deck. So that is pretty much it. I'll go back to this so we can stop there. And so we would love to hear any feedback um about the um uh how how you think um we might go forward in terms of applying for the the um uh variance, the footprint variance. Can

I add to that? Um, so one of the things from my understanding with the team that they were looking at is it is technically feasible to retain um the the existing building in the existing footprint. However, it'll take significant investment to do so. There's also an issue that didn't have that is going to be come into play on January 1st, which is this property is in the 500year flood plane and the new New York State code um given the amount of investment even in the existing building, they will be required to meet um essentially the requirements for construction in the 100year flood plane. So, they're not in the 100, they're in the 500, but New York State has changed that law that they will either have to floodp proof the ground floor or raise it to 2 feet above the base flood elevation on this site. Um, so that um adds another challenge in terms of what they can do with the existing building. Um, so I think, correct me if I'm wrong, one of the things the team is looking for, they would have established rights to the existing footprint, but if they demo the building and build new, they need a variance. So, I think one of the things the team is looking for is how the how the board would view the new building. Um, as opposed to spending the extra money on the renovation. Um, even at that point, they wouldn't need the variances because the building's already there. So, I just to help them get the feedback.

Um, real quick, I guess before we just dove into questions, Megan, can you just give us a synopsis of how we got here? What what what applies non-conforming use, what special use per what do we what is the mechanism that we're moving forward at all?

Okay. So, in this instance, based on the program that the GK team is currently proposing, um this could qualify as what is considered a neighborhood commercial facility, a small um it does have teaching space and classroom space, but a cafe that is intended to cater to the surrounding neighborhood, people that might be coming to GK, that kind of thing. Um there is a use variance from 1963 on the site for retail. Um, at some point when this transferred over to become a cafe, there was not an approval granted for that. So, I am not sure. Um, the cafe had been there for years, but there is no approval on record for that cafe use. It pro it also would have qualified for a special permit in recent years, but that was never obtained. Um, so that again that neighborhood commercial facility special permit is again not intended to be a a large use. It's something that the primary audience is um the surrounding neighborhood and the um I guess the services they provide are like for daily needs. Um, for example, some of the others that have this are um some small fitness centers in the city as well as um Give Me Coffee on Kyuga Street. So, you're thinking of that scale, not something you might see in a more commercial district. Um, so the special permit will be um reviewed and considered by the planning and development board. So, this board is going to be focused on mostly the area requirements of the zone. Um and that may include parking certainly is going to in this case lot coverage um and some setbacks.

And then just if GX a part of the city, why are we you know does the city have to follow its own zoning code on like the county or how does it how does it work?

Yeah, that's a great question. So the city um does follow the um zoning to the greatest extent possible. There is an exception for essential municipal functions which are typically defined as police and fire and others. Um and even then for the they do make every effort to meet that. So the new fire station up in Dryen Road is an example of that. they met nearly all of the requirements, expect green space because they needed some additional room for the trucks to maneuver. Um, so we do try to follow that and it's the same as with the flood plane. Um, you know, I think they're trying to make efforts to comply with all the same requirements that everyone else in the community would have to do.

I I live a block from there and I'm it just seems like you're shoehorning this building into a very inadequate lot. Um it's not the place for it. It really isn't. Um what about um the ball field here? Is it is that technically parkland or not across the street? Yeah, there's plenty of space on Estie Street for this. That belongs to the school district and it is outdoor recreation space for BGM which is mandatory. It would be but unfortunately I wish we could not get it but we can't.

No, I hear you, Steve. But it's it's pretty much puts us outside of being right in the neighborhood with GC. I guess I guess my concerns like so things that we think about viable alternative when I look at this building and I I've been inside it a few times like you've got a rotting back half, right? Which is definitely Can you go back a slide so I can see? Right. So I assume that back half of the building is essentially like a later addition on the back there. Right. You know, I rent to a lot of restaurants and it seems like you'd essentially lop off the back half, put in a walk-in cooler in the back there. The problem is is that like the plan from the get-go has always been to do a second story. Right. Right. So, elevator, a second story with the classroom space.

There's no way this building ever could have taken an elevator. Right. Like, right. this this building like for the purposes of what you're trying to do, this building would never have technically worked. And now I think you bought it in 2023. In 2026 when you didn't be working, you've got the flood map stuff. So I'm assuming this building would have to be raised 4 feet, something like that. 3 to four feet. because it is not a residential use. It wouldn't necessarily have to be raised, but it would even the existing building would have to be floodproofed on the ground floor with uh But if they did new construction, would they have to?

No, they again because it's um commercial, it doesn't have to be raised out of the but it would have to do floodproof construction.

Yeah. I I think like to me the cheapest way to do this instead of doing new construction, you know, is to lop off the back and then say, "Okay, we're not going to have classroom space on the upstairs." I mean, an elevator is going to cost you 100 grand plus $2,000 a year in maintenance costs. Like, I I just, you know, these are huge huge expenses. And to Mike's point about like Jack Park, like you know, you've got that space on the northeast corner by SD and Albany Street there. That's the trees and you're going to have to go through like the pool process like that we've been talking about as a community a bit. Like you're probably going to have to go through a pud to do that, right? To build a large the pool enclosure process, right? To build that facility there. you're gonna have to do some sort of PUD process. To me, it makes sense to do this through a PUD. Like, if you want this here, because fundamentally, we can barely get residential buildings to work in the R2 on a corner lot. And you're asking for us to essentially grandfather in the right to take the existing square footage of a building, right? You know, that's what you're asking. You know, can we keep this square footage and just continue it? Right.

And that would basically set a precedent for all properties that we'd look at and that's that is a challenge. Uh have you explored the PUD process? I know they did it across the street. I know this is out of the zone, but you guys are the city. I mean, this is all feels kind of weird because you just are the city, but like can the city talk to the city and talk to the our member of council about expanding the pod region? So, I mean that is certainly something that could happen is to go to council and ask um to expand it wouldn't just be this site. It would be expanding it more broadly, which there certainly has been interested in that by some council members to allow the planned unit development citywide. Um, that could certainly be something we look at. I do anticipate within the zoning rewrite that's coming up. It'll definitely be considered. Um I'm just not sure about timeline with that, but it's certainly a another option that the the team could request um

be considered. I appreciate that. I in no way think this building should remain standing for any use. I attended a number of fish fries there. The front of the building isn't much better than the back of the building. I agree that it's not a it's not a great building, but um you know I think a lot of times with like economic development the least cost approach to things is is something we should explore and it's also like viable alternative it does like you can go to the page where you have the architectural review like you've always been trying to figure out how to get a second story in here. You want classroom and office space,

right? And like if that's your goal, it's very hard to make this site work, especially with trying to get an ADA component with an elevator. Like that's just hard. And I, you know, what are the percentage variance asks, Megan? We don't have that level of information yet. They're here for um cons, you know, kind of a conceptual approach at this point. We would have to finalize that as it moves forward.

I had a question. So if and when this comes to the board, how would we be looking at the corner lot specifics? I mean, we if we go the route where we say, okay, take take the square footage that was there, apply it to a new structure, we're still are we considering that as established rights to those non-conforming setbacks on the corner lot, rear yards? How how would that work?

Um, so no, it it I mean I think that is what they're looking at. they want to keep propose a similar footprint building. Um, but the same rules would apply as if it was a new building to its own. So, you have two front yards, a sideyard, and a rear yard. um which I completely understand the point that the board is making about this site, but I will say that it would be very difficult to develop even a single family home on this particular site in a way that meets the zoning requirements for here. So, um I hear what the board is saying about the precedent of giving rights to other property owners as well. So, I'm certainly hearing that. Um but I I will acknowledge that this is a very difficult site in general with to build. So

I think if if I can just add I think the um you know if you look at the alternative with what would be done with the zoning um you know the three stories is not necessarily something that would work here. Um and so what we're hoping is to keep it low um so that it's more accessible for the the students and the community. Um but then to keep the keep the cafe function right it's like a little give me coffee I think is a good example. Um, so to keep the the red and white cafe, um, I don't know if it's a tradition, but that that kind of corner use um, to let that kind of continue.

There parking requirements on a special use permit or is it reflected in the structure? No, there will be parking requirements. Um, for a neighborhood commercial facility, it's one space per 500 square ft of net floor area. And we don't have enough information yet to tell you what that would be. Do you have an estimate? Yeah. Well, the the um the gross is calculated here. So, it's something like it's about eight parking places. Um under the gross, right? Under the gross. Okay.

So, either either way, I think with even with the um uh the threetory version, It's around 4,500 gross square feet. So that would be maybe seven or eight net, something like that. Um, and you know, you can see, and you probably know this site, pretty difficult to slash impossible to get um, eight parking spaces on the site in any configuration. Um, and so that might also be part of the variance conversation. I think to me the parking variance is not the major issue because you're going to you're going to maximize what's on site and you know we we've given variances for neighborhood commercial establishments before um you know I think a lot of times when people like do variances for this type of thing they'll show like okay this is what we could do within the confines of zoning and then this is what it'll will rob this site of, right? So people with like a single family home are like we want to add a bedroom so we don't have to sell our house and move. Like that's been example, right? So like it would be useful for us to say, okay, what would this look like if it was zoning compliant and then what would what restrictions would this put on us as people? Not I mean like and I I hate to be this person but like on a more detailed level of like you know is it viable to create to do your mission while meeting the zoning right that's you know and it's like I I am agnostic between a twotory and threetory building here in terms of like that your zoning right is to build three stories like I will never tell you that you can't build three stories like could you do the footprint have it you know the

elevator's already two, go up three. Right. Uh I think this is more complex than just saying there was a building here before. We're going to let you build the same square footage. Call it a day. At least to me, we're missing a member, you know. So, other thoughts and feedback? I personally just I would really just at least explore what uh an advanced an advancement of the PUD would look like. That to me sounds like at least something that's really worth talking to city staff about because the way it works is there's kind of this connective finger where um you know the old Immaculate Conception School was that was all a pud. So to me at least it just seems it could it could connect in a way that that might actually just be your path of least resistance. I I don't know though, but that would be something to at least talk about is kind of my initial.

No, we Yeah, definitely appreciate the feedback because it wasn't something we thought about. We just like, you know, there was already a cafe there. We thought all everything was in place and only need to find out it really wasn't. So, [gasps] we appreciate the feedback. Um, and and we'll look into that. So, the city bought So, this technically the city owns this building right now, right? Yes. Okay. Gotcha. You should talk to your real estate broker about zoning compliance letters.

So yeah, we'll be uh yeah, so that would sounds like a conversation we should have as a followup and how we might approach that. And um I do agree that might give you a lot of flexibility to do what you need on the site and is a different process um and could also give you more. It could combine to your special permit with that. So, it's one process. Um, so we should follow up and see if that's something that you all would like to explore and we can certainly um provide guidance.

We definitely would and that's one of the reasons we wanted to just come see what we're working with and what we're trying to do because just to renovate that and the space it's in, you're right, it's it's not good and it's probably is going to cost us twice as much as if we built a new building. That made no sense to me. So, we'll follow up. Thank you for all the feedback. It really um helps. Um I hear you. Also, Steve, I do have to say just in our preliminary survey of the neighborhood, everybody wanted their cafe back. Um so, we've been talking to the neighbors, one of the reasons why we we jumped on it because they're like, "Can you all please do something with it?" And we we want to be good neighbors. It's what we've done as GC the whole time we've been there.

Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Um, approval of minutes. Donna gets the gold star for reading the draft minutes with such attention to detail. un amended version. I will move to approve the minute minutes as amended. Seconded by Mike

I administrative members. Sure. So good night folks. Thank you. Hi.

Um just wanted to check in quickly about the um so December's meeting we have not received any appeals for um so we will not be meeting in December. Um right now we are tenatively are scheduled to meet on January 6 um for at least um two appeals. So, um, with more information to follow on those, um, we will, um, apparently, uh, Joe's last meeting was, uh, in September, so we will have a vacancy on the board starting January 1. Um, we've, I believe, are getting one application, but if anyone knows others who might be interested in serving uh on the board, we certainly welcome applications um and would like to get back to a full board as quickly as possible. Um, yes. And I mean, this would that particular project be a while before it would come. Um so they're truly in a conceptual phase right now. Um but yes that I agree. So um yeah so keep that in mind and um the January if the January agenda has all the appeals I am thinking of we might reach out and have um either some an advice of council session prior. So, if you could uh keep your schedule open, say 5 o'lock on that day, that might be helpful. So, and that's all I have. Mora, anything?

January 6th. All right. Meeting is hereby earned. Thank you all.