Planning and Development Board - Regular Meeting

This is the October 28th meeting of the City of Ithaca Planning and Development Board. We'll call the meeting to order at 6:03 p.m. Uh, welcome to everyone in the audience and our board members. Um, let's go around and introduce ourselves. Lisa, can we start with you? Lisa Nicholas, director of planning and development and staff to the board. Andy Roman, member of the board. Jenny Secliffe, member of the board. Max Feffford, board member. Nikki Sarah, environmental and landscape planner and staff to the board. Emily Patrina, chair of the board. Sam Jensen, planner and staff to the board.

Great. Thank you. Um, we have emergency exits at the front of the room and the rear where you entered. In case of an emergency evacuation, we are to take one of two exits and wait at the trees on the same side of the street on South Kaunga and Green Street. We do not cross Green Street unless absolutely necessary. Those with restricted mobility in the event of an emergency, it's best to move to one of the stairwells, and first responders will arrive to aid you. In the event of other emergencies, you'll be notified at that time. We want everyone to be aware of their surroundings and offer to help when it's not to your own detriment, as you're your own best advocate. Women's restrooms are located on the first and third floors. Men's restrooms on the second and fourth floors. We have a busy agenda tonight and expect to be here until quite late. We want to attend to all items on the agenda in a thorough and deliberate manner. And to that end, I urge the public, our volunteer board members, and applicants to keep comments and discussion as concise and relevant as possible. We will try to adhere to the proposed time limits on the agenda. Uh Nikki, are there any changes to the agenda?

There are. So 445 East State will not be coming tonight, the sign package. Um, most likely they'll be coming in December if the amendments for the sign ordinance pass because then they can come for one stop hopefully for approval and waiver.

Great. Uh, okay. We do have minutes to approve tonight, August 5th, August 26th, and the September 23rd minutes. Um, can I have someone move the approval? Andy moves. Second. Jenny seconds. Any discussion or changes to the minutes? Okay, seeing none, let's do a show of hand votes. Uh, we can approve them all in one block. So, that is unanimous. Approved. Uh, we'll do public comment now. This is a time for the public to speak about any item for which there is not a public hearing tonight. And we don't have any public hearings for the projects that we are reviewing tonight. Um, is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak? No. Sam, do we have anyone in the waiting room? Okay, then we can move right into reviewing projects. Our first project tonight is site plan review for the Breeze Apartments at 121 and 125 Lake Street. And we are looking at potential site plan changes tonight. Juliet.

Great.

Good evening. Hi, Eric. Is Julia there as well? It's coming in. She's coming hopefully. [laughter] Okay, we'll give her a minute. She comes.

Good evening. I'm sorry. Can you guys Hi, Julia. Yes, we can hear you now. We have you and Eric. So, we have your materials. If you'd like to give us a presentation and highlight the changes, the floor is yours. Yes. Thank you so much. Um, good evening everyone. Thank you for having us. Um we're here tonight to present a few site plan modifications related to the east retaining wall and the adjacent elements. Uh this is the same wall we were here for a few months ago. Eric Reynolds with SLVR who's here with us um will talk you we'll walk you through the details of the proposed changes. Eric uh please whenever you're ready. Thanks Julia. Thank you.

Hello again board members. Good to see you again. Uh we'll pull up a presentation here for the breeze. [clears throat] So as Julia mentioned, we're here presenting some changes to the site plan that was previously approved most recently in March. Um what we've got on the screen here is the side by side, but I will zoom in and talk through the specifics here. So we have a retaining wall as well as an exposed bedrock section along the eastern portion of the site, which I am highlighting here. just to get everyone oriented. East is actually page up. North is to the left. South is to the right. So we'll start and we'll take this in I guess a couple of different components. We'll start on the south side which is page right. The previously approved plan you can see in blue here highlighted. This was the section of retaining wall along the east side. [clears throat] The rear I guess of the site which is to the north. This section of blue here as well as in pink is the previously approved dumpster enclosure. And just to remind everyone, these walls were approved as cast inplace concrete walls that were um ranging in heights but uh relatively tall at around 12 feet high. As we got into things a little bit further and started to plan the uh specific excavation and the contractors um subcontractors got involved um there was some further investigation on the installation of these retaining walls um which has thought which has made us think a little bit about their locations um specifically related to the property line. So on this lower plan, we're generally doing the same type of thing, but we've made some minor adjustments to um stay within our property boundaries. The background for that is that anything off of our property um has been cleaned up by the DEEC previously, but is not exactly under our project, and we would like to stay within the confines of our project. So any excavation or

construction outside of our property lines just will introduce more procedure. And so what we have done on the southern end of the site again page right we have modified the layout slightly angled the wall and relocated the transformer um so that we can maintain all of our uh construction activities within our site boundaries which were cleaned up as you know as part of this project. So that's sort of the front of the site street on the right side here. This is the southern end. Looking at the other end of the site, the same relative problem exists at this pinch point corner here. If I pan up back to the top, you can see the back side of what was the dumpster enclosure is relatively close to the property line. So again, we are proposing a change here to shift the wall slightly off of the property line, relocate the dumpster so that all of our construction activities remain in our property lines where we know um where we have a little bit more control and understanding of what the cleanup was done very recently. just to look at what those walls will look like and change. I mean, dimensionally, they're very much the same. I did mention previously that we had a cast inplace concrete wall approved. What we are proposing here this evening is actually a segmented block wall. I think personally, this is something that's a little bit more aesthetically pleasing. Um, but it does have a different look, which we'll show the board this evening. Um, but here are the two sections that we looked at. Um, this is not really very useful to you as it stands here. So what we've also done is provided the revised elevations of this wall. So this is an elevation of the eastern property line. So this would be looking up the hill from the building would be standing behind you in these elevations. So here [snorts] is the section towards the southern end of the site. These are the segmented block walls that you see here. Just due to the nature that these are slightly wider than a castin place concrete wall. This particular section is slightly taller.

So 555 is the elevation here. It was previously 552. So this represents about a 3-foot change in height. The uh like I said the the gravity blocks themselves are just a little bit larger which means they kind of move in geometry and uh it required this section of wall to be a little bit taller. And then as we move to the back of the site you can see here this wall is relatively similar. Um there were sections here by moving the wall and changing things over here. There were um some overall height differences. Um you can see sort of our our high points uh along the new segmented block retaining wall 546 and 545. Previously we had 547. So generally this section is pretty similar. Um a little bit of reduction in height here. And what you do see is a little bit more of a lengthening on this part. Um this is just due to uh the wall manufacturer looking at this and then there is more of a step down approach. So there's a little bit of a widening of it but generally overall it's slightly shorter on this section. As I mentioned we're also changing the material. So, previously approved on the left would be would have been a cast in place wall, a little bit thinner in sort of width, uh, which was advantageous at the time, but aesthetically it's a little bit um, in my opinion a little bit, uh, worse of a look. So, what we are proposing is more like what you see on the right, not something unfamiliar to Ithaca and its topography. Um, so we have a segmented block wall um, that will look more like this, as you see here with a cap on the top. And then finally, in our conversations initially with staff, they just asked us to clarify that with these changes, there would be no changes to the overall landscape approach with the dumpster relocation. Um, we did have a number of trees along the backside of the site at the northern end. Uh, we do not anticipate the the changes here

modifying much. We would shift those trees around a little bit. Um, as you can see here, we would relocate this one tree that was currently that was previously proposed in the footprint of the dumpster. Uh, but overall the same number of plantings and additionally um, with any relo with any work up here, we plan to relocate some of the plantings down to the southern end where the transformer went. So these were transformer screening plantings. Um, as required, they would be relocated down to the southern end to uh, shield the transformer. So overall we feel that this approach is uh inconsistent with what we had originally had approved. Um the project is going very well. If anyone has been able to get up the hill, things are progressing and uh it's very exciting and we're hopeful to present these changes to the board this evening and uh get approval and get some of these uh final site pieces buttoned up and in place. And with that, I think Julia, is there anything else that we wanted to mention or talk through? Sorry, I was muted. No, I think this was great. Thank you, Eric, for presenting.

Great. Thank you both. Yeah, thank you. Uh, okay, let's go around for board comments. Andy, can I start with you, please?

Sure. Yeah, thank you, um, Eric and Julia. Um, [clears throat] I guess for me, um, you know, reading your letter, Julia, and, um, you sort of presented this as the, um, this new block wall is visually more appealing. But, you know, first of all, looking at the building under construction, I think it's really looking great. It's, it's very industrial looking, and I think it looks great next to the stack, and it's a very clean building. And um I also went up and looked at your Outlook project where initially you had some of those concrete um block you know walls that kind of look like Legos and you've now transitioned um those to concrete which I think board form concrete which I think looks really clean and very industrial. So, for me, I think the concrete is more visually appealing, and I don't like the idea of moving the transformer closer to the front door of the project. I think, you know, having it in the back, um, behind landscape, you know, in the parking lot is better than having it, you know, next to the entry drive. So, um, I think the trash moving is fine. and it seems to still work and you know relocating the tree but I don't support transitioning um from the port and place concrete to the block.

Thank you Andy Jenny.

Thank you Julia and Eric. Um I was going to raise something similar about the block just having also looked at the outlook um and just wondering if it's the same style that you guys had that is at you can still see some visible at the outlook. So curious if that's the same block. Um I just noticed I'm sure you've accounted for this but it the emergency turnaround. Um just curious if that has had any changes. Um you know I saw it labeled on one of the visualizations but not the other. And then I wanted to ask about the path that I think walks out to the outlook that you guys are putting in place. Um and just making sure that the dumpster I think now the dumpster is like adjacent to that path. Um, and so just really being thoughtful that that is obscure, especially if that's sort of the public benefit part of this project is like opening up a visualization and a walking path to look over the falls, hence the name, the outlook. That was it for me.

Great. Thank you, Jenny. Max Grey's Apartments. Sorry. Who? The outlook is a different building. The over Yeah. Okay. [laughter] Long day.

Yeah. Thanks. I I just had a couple of of questions. Uh, one is, uh, with the changing, uh, configuration of the wall and south by Lake Street, does that affect the entry and exit of, uh, vehicles and so forth, including um, the uh, ability for people to see around the corner there to oncoming traffic and Lake Street. Just a question. Um, wasn't clear to me uh, how that would uh, affect that. And then I guess if you could speak to coming back to the wall that Andy raised and Jenny as well. Um if you could speak a little bit about the difference in not in the appearance of the two but also the performance as a retaining wall. I I was just kind of curious about if there's any considerations there that we should be aware of.

Okay, Julian Eric, if you want to field those questions, go for it.

Sure thing. [clears throat] um to go over these. I'm going to pull this back up here. So, um maybe to to hit on some of the easy ones. The emergency access in the rear of the site would still be maintained. I know that there's a lot of line work on this drawing, but generally speaking, um this area that I'm trying to I guess I could do this this area in here uh is the emergency turnaround and it remains, you know, generally uh the same size that it was previously. Um, we have run these calculations previously and we are relocating the dumpster to outside of the original turning radi. And if there needed to be a follow-up, we could we could provide that. But um, confident that this would still function as it is because the new dumpster is going outside of the original uh, paved turnaround area. And then additionally, um, it's kind of cut off from this plan. But again, to do my best ability to sketch here, Lake Street is kind of out here, let's say. So, if you're staging as a vehicle trying to navigate the turn, you would be out past the retaining wall, uh, into the public right away, past the property line. So, this would have, you know, the reconfiguration of this wall or the previous version of it would not have been an issue. Um, where you're queuing up in front of the sidewalk to make the turn either in or out. um to to to go over maybe some of the the other questions. I think the from an engineering standpoint and a longevity um the concrete retaining wall was engineered and designed to do what it uh is intended to do. And similarly um the segmented block retaining wall, same thing. So there's full engineered shop drawings that could be provided if necessary. So very confident on um the alternate approach that we're proposing this evening from a longevity standpoint. Um, and then, you know, additionally, I think maybe to to clarify with Andy, I think our original version is is very

much this version of a concrete wall. Um, not necessarily like the board formed version that you're referencing. Um, and I think just from a construction intensity standpoint and a uh ease of construction, there is some value to a retaining wall that is like this um versus a poured inplace concrete wall if there are things like cracks and things that happen in the concrete, which concrete will always crack. Not necessarily a concern from a structural standpoint. Um, but that could introduce just other aesthetic features that you're not going to get in something like this, which is more of a a small pieces, segmented put together. Um, I'm thinking what did I miss any of the questions there? I'm trying to remember everything.

Um, I think there was another question about the dumpster enclosure and how visually screened it would still be from the overlook path.

Yes. So, that's that's fair point. The dumpster enclosure is getting a bit closer. Um, we would still envision plantings and trees sort of framing your walk. Um, if we can see on here, the the path would have is in the arrow that I just drew. So you are walking, you know, 15 feet closer maybe to the to the dumpster than previously. Um, but we would still plan to put plantings on there. And I think uh it would be fully enclosed. So it's not, you know, it's not like a dumpster just sitting there on a pad. It would be fully enclosed consistent with the previous surround that we had before, which was like a wood surround with gates. Um, and if the um if that wasn't sort of sufficient, we could talk about additional screening with plantings or something like that. But as it stands right now, you are walking a bit closer to it. Um, but generally still screened with the plantings that we do have currently as well as the enclosure itself.

Okay. Uh, and can you zoom into the transformer location for us as well? Seen that too. [clears throat]

So the the new transformer is not near the entry. Um, so the new transformer location proposed is about here. So, uh, the main building entry is over here. There is a vehicular entry here. Um, but I think we're basically taking it from one side of the buildingish to another side of the buildingish. Um, in my opinion, it's not necessarily going to be, you know, any more front and center. Um, there's still plantings in front of it like there would have been over here. And uh you know if you look from Lake Street you'd be able to see it in both instances but it's generally shielded. It's it's probably I don't know what is this dimension 35 or 40 ft from Lake Street proper. Um so um just to maybe clear it up it's it the transformer did move uh but it is not at the main building entrance uh or really that much closer to Lake Street.

Great. Okay. Go ahead Andy. Yeah, Eric, could you pull up that the rendering of the front of the building? Maybe that would help. Yeah. So, the transformer will be sort of over here. This is a this is a a rendering that we did previously. Um, you know, you can't see it, but the other rendering or I'm sorry, the other transformer location is kind of right over here. You would have seen that in front of this is the wall that was previously proposed. So, I'm doing my best to to guide you all here, but um yes, the transformer will be here perhaps a little bit more front and center, but we are envisioning taller plantings in front of it. Um and this is to back up maybe a little bit and provide some additional feedback. We have gone back and forth with Nice a lot on this site. There are some um

there were some easements attempted to get to put the transformer in certain locations and this was really the only place that landed as the NYG approved and city approved transformer location. So, uh as much as that is a conversation that we're having tonight, I would say that um the transformer relocation is not a result of the wall change. The transformer relocation is part of the equation and the wall changed also. Um the transformer location is more so the coordination with NYAG and the neighbors and the city um for its new location towards the bottom of the page if you will.

Okay, great. Thank you for that additional context. So I have um let's let's break the issues down. Um we have the wall size material slightly different locations. We have the dumpster location and screening. We have the transformer location. I think those are all of our issues. So, um, just for the board to talk about each of these, I heard a desire to go back to concrete formed wall. Um, can I get your thoughts on the materiality, Jenny and Max?

I mean, I agree that concrete formed wall looks looks more consistent with the rest of the building. I mean, I wonder even like the brick, the style of brick that's on the rendering that you guys showed up, you know, if something like that would also be more consistent. I think it just has a very different feel. Um, but I'm not necessarily a hard no on what's proposed as long as it's not the big big chunky ones that are at the overlook because I don't think those are very aesthetically attractive.

Okay, Max. Yeah, I I I don't feel so strongly about the u uh about the concrete wall. Uh I I could accept the segmented wall, but I'm willing to listen to everyone.

Okay. Thank you. I haven't really weighed in on it. Um but I I kind of feel how you do, Jenny. I think I would prefer the formed concrete, but because they're a smaller block and it's not just CMU or a splitface or something. It's a little bit more of a landscape block. I think I would be okay with it. I think we would need a submittal of the exact product that you're proposing and size on it, manufacturer, all that. Um, for the record if if we decide to go that way. Um, but it sounds like we're sort of split on this. Um, a question. Sure. Thank you.

Thank you, Eric. Could I just ask uh how tall it is? I guess my my concern too with the block is what it looks like at Lake Street because there's no like um you know cap that you put on those. So what does it look like facing Lake Street and how tall is it there? At one elevation it looked like it was getting up to 20 feet was which was my concern as well. But I

think 15 is the tallest section. It was previously 13. Um we have an image that is more coming down the hill from Lake Street. Um, and I could show you if you are if you're coming, let me see if I can describe this. So, if you're coming up Lake Street from, you know, more of like the western side, like this view is shown, you will see the face of the retaining wall back here, right? As you're coming down the hill from Lake Street this direction, there is too much foliage and existing grade change. You you're not going to perceive the the hill or the retaining wall really. So, as you come up this direction from Lake Street, sort of up the hill with the Ardan on your right, you will sort of like look past and see. Now, the other thing to note is that Lake Street is about 6 feet higher than the section cuts in the elevations that you're seeing. So the reality is like the perception of the the wall is let's say it's um 15 feet high or something in that range. You're standing probably 6 feet higher than that just due to the nature that you come into the site here. Got a lot of lines on my page now. You come into the site and you're kind of going down a hill into the site. So these topo lines, this 536 right here up at the road you're 541 542 and then as you you know obviously as you come down this is down the hill but um there is that to be noted Nikki that the the height of the wall is 15 ft as you noted but there are you know there's some built-in grade that's happening on the street as it is and as a pedestrian or as a vehicle passing by you are already five feet or six feet up from the bottom of where that retaining wall is.

Thank you. So, the perceived impact will be a little bit less. That would have been the case with either wall type. Um, that's not that that hasn't really changed with the with what we've got in front of you this evening. So, it seems like the height is not so much of an issue. I wonder about um how that edge looks cuz the aformed wall edge seems very clean and so I'm not quite sure how a stepped wall edge will work or look. I think I can visualize it but it's hard to know exactly.

Yeah, the the wall does not end in an edge. These types of walls, they kind of usually like taper down. So as you and then grade sort of like gets put on top of them and there's a spe there's a block that as you know the the top block is a little bit different than the ones below it. It has actually like a top if you will. So as you're as you are looking at it from Lake Street, you're going to be seeing the first, you know, the first couple feet of it is going to only be a couple feet tall and it will sort of gradually step up rather than sort of im you know more abruptly starting tall like a concrete wall would. That is why it got a little bit wider and longer because it actually steps down. You don't just stop those blocks. Um,

are they solid blocks? Sorry to interrupt. Are they solid blocks or are they uh more like a masonry unit that has an open cell? No, they are solid blocks because these are gravity these are gravity retaining walls. So, they are solid blocks. Um, they interlock with each other and um are basically just their own heaviness is what helps to retain the earth. So, here's sort of a view. I know this this is kind of oblique because you're looking at it at an angle, but you know, you will see it step up like you can see here u versus the previous concrete wall which was just basically like a vertical edge starting and stopping at the left and right sides. Okay.

So, it does sort of like step up and down unlike the concrete wall would have. Okay. Thank you. Uh Andy.

Yeah. I guess for me um the you know the exposing of you know the gorge stone is so beautiful and you know I I ride by and walk by the site a lot and it's just you know I've been waiting for the concrete walls to come in because I think it'll be such a beautiful contrast to the natural you know stone and I'm afraid that these blocks kind of have a fake look. Um, and I think especially next to the gorge and this is really a gateway to the gorge. So for me, I just, you know, think the conc concrete is the the right way to go.

Okay. Thank you for that. Um, now that we have a little more from Eric and from Andy, um, Max and Jenny, how you feel about the concrete and the blocks? Same or? Yeah, I'm I'm okay with them. I think it'd be good to take a look at them and make sure that you know visually they do look okay. Okay, that seems like a good good suggestion. So, if we could see see the product actually see the product. Yeah.

Okay, let's hold on that and uh talk about the dumpster location and the screening. Any further thoughts on that? I feel fine with where it is. It is closer to the trail, but um we could talk about extra plantings if we want. There is a tree between the trail and the the wooden enclosure. It's a red bud. It's a red bud. Just to point out. Yes. Tell me more about that. It's not very spindling. Y they're spindly. Okay. Is there Eric? Is there the potential to have like a lower level below that red bud grasses? Some additional plantings like a second.

I think we could absolutely, you know, we could absolutely do that. Whether whatever the the we could talk with our landscape group and and see what makes sense there. Whether it's something like low grasses or arborvitees or something like that, we can absolutely do that. Okay. Um, anybody have an objection to the dumpster? Andy?

Yeah, I think if if the team went back to the concrete wall and it was more rectal linear and and the turns were more orthogonal rather than curved, I think you could still accommodate the dumpster where it was because Jenny, I think you do bring up a good point and I don't think that's going to be a nice thing to walk by. And if this is really again a feature of the gorge and people are going to be able to experience it in a whole new way, you don't want to walk by a dumpster on the way. Okay, Jenny and Max on that. Agreed with Andy or how do you feel? Yeah. I mean, I guess um is Can you guys remind me of the the concrete walls? The reason that you're moving away from that is because of they're more construction intensive and uh they required additional excavation beyond sort of where we were previously prepared to do excavation. And there's potential for um anything we do off property is going to trigger DEEC oversight. And so that would like severely impact our timeline most likely. And like I'm not really prepared to talk about what it might mean. But we just know that as our consultant came on board, CNS companies, they mentioned that, you know, that's really not under this pro anything outside of our property line is not under this purview that they're currently doing. So it would open a can of worms that we frankly don't really want to open. So we want to we want to maintain all excavation on our own property.

So let's tease out the the difference between the material and the shape the new location and shape of the walls. Um are they both optional or does the new location and shape of the walls necessitate the block? Uh they're a little bit I guess they're a little bit intertwined. we would we would need to look a little bit closer, but I think the walls want to move and change shape regardless, right? So, yeah, I guess that's I I hope that answers your question. It does cuz I heard Andy say you prefer the orthogonal location of the old walls to keep the dumpster back, but I think it may not be possible to stay on the property bounds. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess I'm confused because, you know, if that if that were really, you know, the the impetus for this, you know, why why wasn't that presented initially? The the letter you wrote, you know, described this as an aesthetic choice, not a technical issue.

Yeah, I think they're I mean, they're definitely intertwined. I think I guess from our project's perspective, we thought that, you know, we and you would appreciate this look more. And so, if we had thought otherwise, we probably wouldn't have put that in there. Um the background for the segmented retaining wall was an option that is less construction intensive that our internal team thought was also more aesthetically pleasing. Um you know part of the sort of sausage making if you will is that we made that we introduced those walls during construction. So, the process with CNS and with all of the subcontractors and and figuring it out um was not quite as normal as our normal design and entitlement process might have been. So, it just the red flag wasn't raised for the construction intensity and construction logistics when we previously came to the board in March.

Right. Okay. So, I think I would I don't hear enough of a consensus tonight to vote on this change. I wonder if we can see you next month with, you know, um the actual block, um a spec if you have a sample, um and also taking a look at if the new proposed location and size to be pulled away from the property line could be done in formed concrete because I feel like that is actually more what we're leaning towards and could be a compromise like it's the new location but it's the old material. Um, so if it's possible for you to come back with that next month, both so that we have both a better understanding of both, um, I think we could be prepared to vote on that. I think then the dumpster location is kind of tied to the wall. Um, I'm hearing, um, mostly positive feedback on it, but a harder look at that that we'd like it not next to the trail. I think if the wall necessitates it there, we can work with you on plantings, but it'd be better if it wasn't close to the trail. And then the last thing is the transformer location. Um, I know Nice is hard to work with, and for me, that location is fine. Maybe we look at some taller plantings around that as well. Can we go back to board members on on that location, Andy?

Yeah, I agree with that. You know, a new landscape plan, I think, to the west. Yeah. to hide the transformer. Okay, Jenny. Yeah, that's fine. And Max, yeah what others are saying as well. Okay, so Lisa and Nikki, anything else you want to add to this? Well, um, yeah, I just had one thing. Um, should the dumpster be there? In addition to landscaping, I don't believe yet we have seen, have we seen details of what the dumpster enclosure is going to be?

I don't believe that was in our original package, right? But that usually comes later. But there's a lot of choices that could make it more pleasant. Um, so there's some really nice dumpster enclosures around town and some not nice ones, but it's possible to build one that isn't it is. And also then the other question is, do you have to have an exterior dumpster? Could you bring it into the U [clears throat] building? Okay. So hopefully that is enough feedback for you. Um, if we can see sort of a little more development on all these areas, um, I feel like we'd be prepared to vote next month on it. Um, super. Thank you, Eric and Julia. Um, we can also give you good feedback at PRC next month if you come to that meeting um, to get prepared for hopefully approval in November. So, okay. Thank you very much for the material tonight and we will see you next month.

Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Um I think I'm staying, right?

Uh yes. So we have the citizen um up next at 602 West Buffalo. Thank you for staying on, Julia. And tonight, this is a presentation. So to give the board a little bit of background, this project was approved. Final site plan approval was given. Um but it is rei we are revisiting it completely as a new project because the site plan approval has expired. I have that right. So there was a negative declaration for seeker um which carries through. There's not an expiration on that but we should look at their presentation through the eyes of do we need to reopen the seeker to do um another declaration. Did I miss anything?

Nope. Nope. It' be an amended an amended negative. Yeah. if you chose to do that. Okay. Um Julia, who else is from your team for the citizen tonight? We have Bayer Smith with Hold Architects and he'll be making the presentation for us tonight. Hi Bayer. Thank you for coming. Hey, of course. Uh thank you guys.

Awesome. Thank you guys for having us. Um so yeah just to kind of recap um our goal so time has elapsed since the previous approval and there are some key elements that have adjusted from that previous approval to now. Um the main driving factor was that the flood planes had changed. So previously the project wasn't in the flood plane. Obviously FEMA went through with DEC and updated the maps and now the project finds itself in a uh uh designated zone. And so those items needed to be addressed. So many of the changes that you're going to see tonight are associated with those elements and that's a driving factor behind these changes. Um, additionally, something that I think is worth noting um is that under the previous approval, the project was intended to be a market rate project. At this point, the project has pivoted and it is um aiming for affordable housing. And so that's another um aspect [clears throat] to this that we think is very beneficial to both the project and the community that could uh in our eyes is a is a net positive for the community as a whole. So that being the case, I will go ahead and share my screen. And so I will be bouncing back and forth a little bit between what was previously shared to what we currently have. Um, and I'll try to be very specific about when I'm showing you which. Uh, so then that way we can keep it very clear and concise. So the rendering that you're seeing on screen was the previous project when it h had reached final approval. The project was a five-story building um podium style construction, four stories of wood construction over um a non-combustible base and it at that point housed uh 80 units. Um and so again as we needed to adjust the flood plane, what essentially needed to happen

was we needed to raise this upper floors to create additional space on the first floor. So we could raise as many of the uh ground floor functions as we needed to meet both the residential requirements for floodplane and then also the commercial retail space uh requirements as well. So to address that item, the project had elected to raise that, but as a part of it, we recognized that we were going to create a zoning issue if we had maintained the same number of stories. So to ensure that this project stayed zoning compliant and also to try to hit some of the target goals with the affordable housing, the top floor was eliminated from this project, reducing it down from 80 units to 59 units. As a part of that, you will also notice that we try to keep the exterior aesthetic between the two buildings as identical as possible. Window locations were adjusted simply due to ch we needed to make some adjustments to the units to reach the affordable uh requirements through HCR with the state. And so as a part of that, the aesthetic has stayed the same, but we had to shift some window location. So, as you're kind of comparing and contrasting, you'll notice those two elements between the two uh projects. You'll notice that there's this key feature on the corner of being able to kind of clip the corner and then some seating along the front. This was a highly discussed item during the previous approval and we felt that it was very important to maintain that same uh identity along between the two. And so a big portion of what you're going to see as we move into the next one, next slide. This again is the previous design that you're looking at here. You were able to see some seating along the sidewalk. The building is set back to be able to achieve this. So it's found on the public right away. And the sidewalk portion is the public uh portion of the rightway. clip the corner coming on

around to an entry for the uh residential portion of the building. With the flood plane requirements, we needed to elevate approximately 4 ft. The flood uh the base flood elevation is about 2 feet above where the floor plane was previously. And then we need to have an additional two feet of freeboard. So to be able to achieve that, we kept the same kind of arrangement, seating along the uh front, clipping the corner, having this bypass underneath, and then we just had to add a couple of stairs here along the front for the primary entry. There was an element too for accessibility, which we'll get to here in a moment um when I get to the views for that. But again, between the two, you notice that the finishes are all identical. We still have the vertical solar shades. Um, the intent is to keep the same mural items that were there previously. Um, the only thing that's really different is we got rid of the green color predominantly because these are floodplane resistive materials. It could be painted, but painting block is one of those things where it's going to be maintenance issue long term. So, it was one of the things at this point we pulled back, but if the board feels otherwise, we can explore how we might be able to address that. A couple other items that I think is worth noting with this project is here's a neighborhood plan that we had to develop develop [clears throat] for the uh uh affordable application through uh HCR. You'll notice that we are in the flood plane, but I think this is a good representation to just remind us how many services are available in the area between the schools, the hospitals, the parks, the grocery stores. It's a really prime location for affordable housing and I think it makes a wonderful spot for this project to achieve that. Going into some of the site plan items. The site plan for all intents and purposes is nearly identical to what we previously had approved. We have a fire apparatus lane with an easement

agreement through uh the neighboring parcel. Back here we have some under building parking along the uh west side of the property. We did have to provide a little bit of an elevated uh stair and electric room to just meet some of the flood plane requirements in the back here. And then we have the main portion of the ground floor at that front corner along Meadow and Buffalo Street. Again, having the entries coming right along with some seating for the retail and then the entry over here. You'll notice that there is a bumpout that occurs back here. And when we get to the floor plans, we'll discuss that a little bit more. That's to provide accessibility into the building to be able to get up to the slightly elevated ground level for the residential portion and then also get up through the building as well. Um, this is one of those tricky parts with when you have a slightly elevated uh floor plate in a building, you're going to have to have a front back elevator that chews up a lot of circulation and that was the need for why we had to do this little bumpout. So, it does provide accessible access along Buffalo Street here and then also nice and neatly tucked over tucked over by the accessible parking spaces for the project. Um, moving on to the floor plan, I do want to hop over to the previous floor plan real quick. You'll notice that we did have two retail spaces. Most of the residential portion was along here and then we had the underbuilding parking. All the elements are roughly in the same location. The big difference that you'll see when we go to the current plan is we combine that retail space into one. The main reason for this was if we treated those retail spaces as two separate entities, then they would need to have different flood proofing or they would be treated separately as occupancies and they would have to meet all the flood pling requirements with an elevated um um exit out because we do intend to dry

flood proof this area to be able to maintain ground level access along that street front. We felt that was very vital and important along that corridor to try to make sure that the retail portion didn't feel isolated from this um sidewalk or the street. Um but otherwise you'll see here with the accessible entrance here coming in one side or the other to that front back elevator to be able to facilitate getting up through the building and also getting to the ground level functions for the residential portion. And then just continuing right on along, you'll notice that elevations again very much similar. One of the items to note is that we did raise a significant portion of the glazing along Meadow Street for the retail portion. And this is simply due to try to mitigate as much uh flood proofing that is needed for the project. If you put bring that glazing down, you have to be able to make sure it can um prevent water infiltration, which gets very expensive. So bringing those sills up, having the seating along there will kind of create that um that transition and then we can minimize our flood proofing of openings down right to the two uh entry doors along that side. And I think that is um I think that is it for the presentation portion. Our questions uh really to the board for this evening would be one of schedule um because we do recognize that this is needing to come back and a modified approval or brand new approval. Um so we want to be thoughtful because we have submitted for funding this round and so we want to try to get this information to the state as soon as possible for their consideration of part of the uh application process. And then um Julia I am spacing on the second question. Um there was one more we were supposed to

ask I think it sorry thank you bear. Uh what I I what I what I have in my mind is also the schedule-wise um question. Oh the the the seeker item was the other portion

seeker. Yep. Seeker was the other item. We we have done our absolute due diligence to try to minimize any impact to it from our vantage point because we kept the site elements nearly identical and all all aspects of it. And since there's a lower unit count, we think that that actually is a um a positive consideration towards the previous because we did not decrease the size of the storm water retention that is going underneath the building. We kept those things sized as if it was the 80 unit still. Okay, great. That will conclude.

Thank you, Bear. Thank you, Julia. Um, I will come back to those two questions on the amended seeker NAGD deck and also the schedule, but let's start off with board questions and reactions first. Max, can I start with you this time, please?

Um, thank you for that presentation. was one of my questions is if this kind of stays within the ca same footprint so forth of the previous building and so that seems to be important to me in terms of moving this forward especially with respect to seeker um I had a question about the retail space what how what size is that going to be and is it realistic to think that a retail you'd find a retail occupant that would u occupy that size of a U space.

Great question. Um, I do not have the number offhand. I know that uh Oh, let me do some quick math here. We got I I would say continue asking questions and I'll get back to you on that one in like five seconds. That was all I had. In the agenda, it says 23,000 square feet of retail space. Thank you. That's big. Yeah. Um, okay, Jenny,

thanks. I mean, I uh my first comment is that you're missing a lot of potholes in the renderings of that intersection. I was like, what what street is that? [laughter] Um, it looks very beautiful. Um, I um I was curious about any indoor bike storage. I know you sort of mentioned exterior bike storage. Um, I think particularly we've t, you know, I've I feel like I've raised this a lot and sometimes I've been um a little more willing to understand why indoor bike storage isn't needed, especially for places that are like on the top of the hill, but this is in prime biking zone and so I would love to hear more about indoor bike storage.

We we do have bike storage under the building uh included in that parking zone. we don't have it enclosed and a big part portion to that is with EV char or charging of electric bikes in particular the batteries aren't as well regulated and there are fire concerns with those. Um so we do have covered uh parking for the bikes but just not enclosed.

Okay. I guess I you know it'd be interesting if you could take a look I hear you on the EV but even just for regular bicycles you know I think we hear most frequently from transportation partners that the need is for safe and secure um you know enclosed bike spaces to prevent against theft. Um so just you know just if you're able to take another look and see what you could potentially come up with I'd be curious. Um, I can you explain in a little more plain language the accessibility I got a little bit lost as you were kind of pointing. I think even if you just sort of say it again I'll be able to follow along a little more clearly.

Yep. Absolutely. So for accessibility um we have our grade plane of what's the sidewalk elevation and for residential flood proofing we have to get to whatever the required elevation is. In this situation, it's about 4 feet above that grade plane. So, we got to trans make that transfer of four feet up. And so, it creates a situation where with an elevator, you're only going a half story. So, you can't enter and exit on the same side of the elevator. You have to be able to do it on opposite sides to be able to do halfstory transitions. So, to do that, we have this um off Buffalo Street here. So, everything's been rotated. North is uh page uh west. So, you have a sidewalk that's going to be coming along into this lower lobby. There is a um a set of stairs to get to this elevated portion of the floor, first floor for the residential and this elevator will also transition through that um uh halfstory transition. It does make kind of a nice uh transition for the upper floors because if you're entering on one side, then you'll be able to immediately exit onto the other side for all the remaining upper floors.

Okay. But so if I'm a person who's coming to the restaurant, say I'm coming with my friend who, you know, uses a wheelchair, I might walk up the stairs in the front and that person would have to go around to the back. No. So for the retail portion, there is two doors along the front here. Oh.

Those are ground level. That would serve the retail portion. The stairs is intended to be for residential only slash in an emergency situation of a flood. Then the retail would be able to eress right on through to get to this elevated point. That's one of the requirements of dry flood proofing is that you have to have an elevated egress above the flood plane at least one of them for for fire safety to be able to come and go. Okay. So the only let me just make sure I'm clear. The only way though for accessible entry is an elevator. There is no ramp.

Not not on this project. Um because part partly too because there was a previous design. So the thought process was well we could do a ramp. If we were to do a ramp, how long of a ramp are we going to be looking at? And you're looking in the neighborhood about somewhere between 60 to 80 ft. And to facilitate that on this project is going to be a challenge. you would either have to look at taking up a lot of the um space along the front to be able to facilitate that ramp or we would have to look at somehow facilitating that in underneath the building which then starts kind of creating this awkward pinch point between the ceiling and the ramp. So given the space constraints and where the design previously was at, because admittedly the previous design got approval and it kept rolling forward towards construction, um we wanted to minimize the amount of changes as much as possible to not impact Seeker.

Okay, got it. Um and then my last question, I forgot it, so I will try to remember it while I pass Andy. Okay, thanks Bear. Thanks, Julia. Um, I guess for me, you know, I understand that another board approved this, but I think the majority of the board now is new, and for us, this really is a new project. So, you know, I respect, you know, your your thought that that this could be a fast thing, but, you know, for me, this is a brand new project. I'm seeing it for the first time. Can I see a show of hands who's seen this before? Have all are all three of you new to this project? Yeah.

Okay. We do have Elizabeth who's not here tonight who has seen the project but the majority for your info bear the majority of the board has not. Go ahead Andy.

Right. Right. So I mean I think this is a you know really amazing opportunity. This is really the gateway um in the west end waterfront district. So this is a really important building you know really important corner. So many people making their turn onto Buffalo from Meadow. So um you know this should be really great building. Um I guess one question I have and and maybe you know these are questions you don't have to answer now but could you know come out you know as time goes on but um first question is what is the sustainability story of the project? I didn't hear you know any mention of that. So it would be good to hear you know what your goals are for sustainability. Um the second thing is um for affordability. Could you be you know more specific and again it could be in another meeting. What do you mean by that? That you know that has so many different um you know definitions. Is it the entire building? You know what what types of people you know are you sort of targeting for this building? I think and what support services you know would be required and where are those? Um, in terms of the parking, um, the this open parking in in a really, you know, kind of downtown area kind of scares me. And part of the, uh, waterfront guidelines has to do with, you know, there shouldn't be open parking along a major street. So, I know it's just a bay, you know, it's the entrance and then a bay, but then the rest of, you know, as you turn the corner next to the neighbor, this entire ground floor is open. And this doesn't seem like a great neighborhood to provide this giant protected space. Um, to me, this parking should be somehow

screened and enclosed and not just kind of a a giant breezeway. And it's huge, you know, it goes a whole block. Um, in terms of accessibility, go ahead.

Yeah, if I may just jump in with the parking one. Um, something to keep in mind, while I'm happy to address those at the next meeting, but something to keep in mind is as a part of like flood plane requirements. Um, if you enclose the space, if it it becomes a little tricky because if you enclose the space, you have to be able to freely allow the passage of water in and out if it's going to be wet flood proofed. Um, which is the only option that we're allowed for residential functions. Um, we're not allowed to do dry flood proofing. So, if we completely enclose that, then we have an issue of we need to elevate floor levels, different things like that. So, it's just something to keep in consideration as to why we why we didn't choose to make amendments to that parking.

Yeah, totally understand that. I wasn't proposing, you know, a solid enclosure. Um, you know, there's a million ways you could do something that was open that that add, you know, allowed air infiltration and, you know, met your mechanical requirements and flood requirements, but still, you know, provided enclosure. Um, and you know, to follow up on Jenny's questions about accessibility, this just doesn't feel equitable. You know, looking at the design you had initially, and I know, you know, there's so many challenges with the flood plane, but I don't think adding, you know, just putting a stair, you know, a concrete stair there feels equitable. You know, again, you know, if if as Jenny, you know, told a story of arriving with a friend, whether you're going to the re retail seems, you know, right at grade level, that's not an issue. But if you were visiting someone, you know, you're kind of pushed to the back of the building. You go through the garage and there's kind of a back door. I I have to think there's a way you can solve this within the building. Um, and I understand, you know, bringing, you know, people in a ground floor puts more pressure on you for the waterproofing, but there seems like there would be a way, a creative way to allow everybody to walk in at ground floor and then deal with the grade changes. Um, for the for the retail, I'm, you know, I'm really sorry that you're that you've raised the glass up. Um, maybe it's a cost issue, but again, are there other ways to treat that window so that it's not just this band of brick around the whole building? You know, could could it be spandrel glass with, you know, masonry behind it or something that brings that retail down to the ground and doesn't feel like, you know, that window is, you know, sitting on on bricks. And then lastly, there's

this it feels very barren. there's not a lot of landscape and um I I see that you have some street trees, but is there a way to enlarge tree boxes or create something else to um to just provide some relief to the site? I I know it's constrained, but um just something something to think out about. So those are the my comments and I know they're kind of large scale but again it's the first time I'm seeing the building and I think um in terms of the expression of the building um I think it was more successful when you had that additional floor. It's you know very kind of horizontal and the the difference between the ground floor and the kind of pancake layers on top. Um, it's not I don't know the something about the proportion feels a little squat. Um, because of all of this horizontal horizontality that you're emphasizing. So, you know, sorry to give you so many comments, but again, this is my first time I'm seeing it. Thank you.

Thank you. No, I I have seen it and I will admit to not looking closely at a lot of these like the horizontality, you know, I already sort of had that was solved in my mind. So, I was looking at other things. So, I think it's valuable to have all these new perspectives. Um to that end, I think bear we should um next time like take a step back and do a bigger presentation. Um understood.

Yeah. just because I think a lot of questions are going to keep coming up. Um, yeah, I think that would be really helpful. Um, I'm going to go back and look at the old one as well and um, look forward to that presentation next time from you to hit some of these major major questions. Specifically though, my feedback had to also do with the um, the accessible route at the back um, in plan. and I think it makes sense and I understand why you're doing it, but I also wanted to see if that route could be as nice as the other route and as equitable if it has to be there. I think Andy's point is well taken that see if you can do it internally in the building in a different way, but otherwise that's got to be a very well-lit space with some features. It has to be very safe. It can't feel like it's right next to the parking. Maybe there's a second mural on that side because we that's kind of a feature I think of this entrance still. Do we still have the mural? Um,

yes. Yeah. Okay. So, maybe there is a second mural on that side. So, it's really one for one if if that is the logistical solution for accessibility. Um, okay. Let's talk about schedule. Jenny, go ahead. Oh, I just I was gonna I remembered my other question. I was curious if all of the units are affordable or if it's mixed income units. It Julia, you might be able to jump in, but my understanding is all the units in this project are affordable as they were submitted as a part of the 9% uh LITC, which is the low-inccome tax uh housing tax credit through u uh HCR with the state.

Okay. Um and then I also, you know, I just wanted to share another note on accessibility. Um, through my work, I often hear a lot about folks who have to access our own building coming through accessible options. And having only an elevator is really challenging, especially when you have folks if the elevator isn't working, if the elevator has has um, you know, has urine in it, has needle syringes in it. There is not then another available option for people to necessarily access the building. And so I think I'm not I'm not suggest I'm not suggesting that your building is going to be like littered with um syringes. And I actually think even as I sort of said this out loud, I think it drew a really unfortunate comparison around affordable housing that I'm really not trying to make. Um, I'm just sharing what I hear from folks in the public who do have accessibility concerns around getting in and out of um, apartment buildings and that sometimes having only the elevator as an option is not necessarily um, the best way to go. Again, I'm really Yeah, I feel like I made a poor

no point connection there and I hope that no one takes it that way. Yeah, thanks. Thank you, Jenny. Um, okay, Lisa and Nikki, any thoughts as we move forward? We have the question of schedule and the amended NG deck.

One more design related thought and I don't know where this will go with um the other comments you've gotten but I'm just looking at the south elevation on the street level side and that wall um right beside the sidewalk looks like it's probably 11t tall or something. That's a pretty that's a south facing wall and that that would be pretty brutal. Um, and part of this whole, you know, there have been other projects or at least one other project that had to deal with this having to have a big wall. And then what do you do to soften it and make it a place that is also, you know, this is you want this place to also be a place where people want to be and that feels comfortable. And um yeah, that wall, it would be great to sort of integrate something into that wall, whether it's landscaping, integrated landscaping or or something to kind of make it not a giant wall right next to uh the sidewalk.

Anything else, Nikki?

Um no, not on design, just on the amended NEG deck and schedule. Um I think for a minute neg I think the big thing that we need to think about is that it's now in the 100year flood plane which is a very impactful thing on in seeker. Um so I'm throwing that out there that that is a big thing that has changed. Um and then I think as schedule we as you know bear we haven't had time to create one but we will create one and um I unfortunately do not think it'll be as fast as you guys would hope it would be. Um, we of course will work with you to try to, as always, make it as best as we can for the board to both review and make it the best project that they can and um, you know, for you to respond to their comments. But we can have that definitely by, you know, before PRC of next month.

I mean, you're definitely out of the gates, you know, farther than any other brand new project. So, I think you have that going for you. Go ahead, Max. One more thing, please.

So, you know, in listening to everybody, which I always appreciate everybody's comments, uh, which really helps me think about this. I wanted to come back. I just had the question about the retail space seemed, uh, big to me, and, you know, I, uh, understand some of your reasoning, but it it occurs to me that, uh, we could or I would love to hear you rethink a little bit the retail space in conjunction with accessibility and the equitable accessibility of the of the place. and you have two ground level entrances to the retail space. Um I think there's just room to kind of consider some of that in conjunction with well in terms of a couple of questions. One, the viability of retail spaces there at whatever size. And then secondly, the accessibility and and its equitability uh in terms of accessing the building. And is there some way there's a a compromise there that that could um could be accomplished?

Good points. Okay. Um I think with that we can look forward to seeing you next month. Um we have a lot to think about and you know I remember being very excited about this project and I think I still am. This is going to transform this corner. So, we just have to um catch up our newer board members and make sure that we're doing diligence once again on this project. So, thank you for walking us through it. We will see you next month. I think it should be called Joe's, just to plug, but thank you guys. And for next month, we'll also um include the thief from last time so everyone can see that as well. Great. Okay. Thank you, Bear. Thank you, Julia.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Have a great one. Okay, next we are looking at preliminary and final site plan approval for Ginsspoon Hill at Cornell 722 University Avenue.

Okay, we have Lisa and Sarah

only. It's like a local olive garden. Yeah. Hello, gentlemen. And we have Sarah and Lisa. Yes. Hi. And hello. Well, before you begin, I just want to say um thank you for this project. We are so excited about it. Um we have seen it. We love it. We are prepared for a presentation, but I think we could vote without a presentation. So if you want to um give us the highlights and and keep it short, we're happy to do that as well. So over to your team. Thank you.

All right, I'll share screen and uh so we're passing around some material samples uh to take a look at which I think is one of the only uh or one of the few new items that we have. Um I think the board has seen um everything in the presentation package here today previously. The materials also were presented on August 5th, but we didn't have the baguette sample at that time. I think Jacob has that. You didn't bring them in your suitcase this time. Yeah, they all broke. So that that was a fail a failed errand. Well, with let's get back. Okay.

With your request that we keep this short, I will skip the construction drawing package. Okay. Um, which I I don't think has changed um from the previous meeting. Uh, we do have some updated uh renderings of the building um to sort of compare and contrast with the material samples that you have in your hands. Um Lisa, do you want to talk about these a little bit in relation to the materials?

Yeah. Um we updated the renderings to try to um make the materiality uh look a little more like the samples that are in your hands. Um we had sort of abstractions before talking about the different volumes where the volume B um is kind of a smooth textured terracotta and volume A is the one that has texture. Um the idea in terms of color, you know, we have a terracotta manufacturer that we are collaborating with that is producing samples um which is going to be an ongoing process probably all the way until we have a mockup. But the the general idea is that we are looking for um fairly calm palette of sort of a cream color and we're using the texture to differentiate the two volumes. the one volume A is where the bait madash is the house of worship space um that prominently projects and then the background volume of volume B.

So each view has been updated basically to get a little closer to what the actual uh material samples look like. We've also indicated where the signage um we have only just begun interviewing wayfinding and signage consultants. Um as you can imagine there are a lot of donors that have been involved in this um project to you know make it a reality. So many many um people have to be honored and so just wanting to do that in a way that is um not a crazy conjuncting messages but you know real clarity and elegance that that go with the building. Um, we we are going to try to work very hard to keep within the limits of what's allowed in terms of square footage of signage, but again, that that conversation is only beginning. I think everything else except for those um those updated renderings is the same as you've seen in the past. I'll

skip the photos of the materials since you have them in hand. I think the renderings probably do a better job than the elevations, but we have these here if you want to come back and talk about any of them. Um, and then just the last new piece that uh Andy had requested at PRC is a quick look at the landscaping. Um, and I would ask that you take these renderings with a a grain of salt. Uh, they are not uh necessarily exact exact representations. Um but they are uh the concept generally um that there are trees along the parking area on this slope. Um generally we're looking to select uh lighter leafed trees. So those would be uh gladitzas um so that they don't necessarily block the views but that they do cast a nice dappled shade um and they contribute in the fall a nice yellow color. Um, and then we do have one tree which I think the artist rendering here might show a little bit more oaklike than what we're proposing. I think we're looking at like a river birch in the um in the the bio swale area um the rain garden. So again looking down um and again take this with a grain of salt. I don't think the lawn is quite that big, but um generally just trying to give you um a concept of how the the landscape uh sits in relation to the building mass. Uh that's all we have for presentation. There's obviously a lot of slides here. Happy to talk about any of them, but I understand um wanting to keep this short.

Wonderful. Thank you all. Um, I will say that this project is one I think we're all super excited by and I am going to start walking up the hill and watching construction because it's really beautiful. Conceptually, it hits the mark and um, functionally it's just well thought out. So, thank you for bringing it to us. Thank you for these updated um, images. I think it really does capture what you've been speaking to all along. Um, let's go around the board for any outstanding questions or comments. Andy.

Yeah, thanks everyone for the presentation. I I agree with Emily. I think this is going to be one of the most stunning uh buildings on the Cornell campus. I think it's really just beautiful. And just to clarify, the the sample that we saw of the the glazing that looks like stone, is that would that be on the base? Is that what we're seeing sort of under the the seating terrace? Yes. Um yes. And I I don't think that sample had been shared previously. Uh it actually came in today. Great. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's just gonna add, you know, another level um of s sophistication to the building. And I was, you know, diving into the to the rain garden. I'm so um glad that you provided these, you know, additional renderings. It's very helpful. And um I really love what you're doing with, you know, most the plantings in the rain garden. There's so many. It was so exciting just to see all the different species in variety and color. And then this beautiful river birch will be the, you know, sort of marquee um tree there. I think it's a great design. So yeah, just think it's a beautiful building. Thank you, Jenny.

Thanks. I also think it's really lovely. Um, you know, just one thought if you're interested, the Lab of Ornithology has lots and lots of donors. They also struggled with this problem. And so, if you're looking for a place to look at how they managed signage with many donors, um, that could be one worth checking out. It's another beautiful building up at Cornell. Um, just a little food for thought, but thank you. And Max, I am with Emily. I want to go up there and see the construction of this. I'll be following it. Um I don't have anything to add and congratulations on a great project. Thanks. Thank you. Um Lisa and Nikki, any outstanding issues or thoughts?

Okay. Well, with that, why don't we take a look at this yellow sheet? Um we are looking at preliminary and final approval tonight for Ginsspoon Hal Center for Jewish Community at Cornell. Um can I have a motion to open the proposed action? Andy moves. Um Jenny seconds. And do we have any discussion on the items? Let's just take a minute to review. I think we've seen all the materials, so there's no outstanding items. We'll see a signage package once they uh get to it. Okay. Any revisions or questions on this? Okay. Seeing none, let's do a roll call vote. Andy,

yes. Jenny, yes. Max, yes. I am also a yes. So, congratulations. Thank you. Preliminary and final. Thank you all. Thank you. Great news. Thank you very much. And I just quickly introduce myself. I'm Rabbi Aries. I'm the CEO of Prince Hill. I've been on the video many times. And I'll just say we will have video feed of the construction. Uh so you'll be actually you'll be able to walk by it, but also see it at our website. But thank you all very much. Thank you very much. Good luck. Thank you. Good night.

Yes, cranes. Cranes and diggers. Right. Uh, okay. Next up, we're looking at a sign review for Kaigga Park. Um, formerly Carpenter Circle project. So, I assume we will keep you, Jacob. Okay. We are looking at potential sign package changes approval. And Sam, you said who is? And Paul is online. Okay.

All right. So, uh back again for signs for Q to park. Um we had final approval for signs from the board. Uh previously we required variances so we went to EZA. Uh they agreed with some of the signs They have approved the blade signs on the um on the two buildings and the primary monument sign at the 50 extension. Uh however, they did not approve the secondary monumental entrance sign third street entrance and they did not approve the uh the wayfinding sign which was sort of internal to the site pointing to the various site. Um there were specific reasons why they objected to those. Um we can certainly go into those. Uh generally I think it came down to the uh the height of those wayfinding signs in particular. Um the the signage code allows only for a certain height. I think it's like three feet for directional signage which is how they were described. Um and so what had been proposed were these sort of tall flag uh signs. I think most of you will probably remember those. Um which were you know over over seventh. So a variance of that scale uh seems a lot more substantial. So we're back with revised wayfinding signs. Um we are no longer looking at the secondary monument sign. We sort of rolled that into the wavefinding signage. So, it's part of that same family um throughout the site. And let's take a look at those. Uh we have some quick photo mockups of each of these in

their location. So, this this was the location of that secondary monument sign. Obviously, this is a much scaled down wayfinding signage, right? It's it's just directional arrows. Uh not meant to be viewed at that scale. Um right there

moving through the site. So, at each intersection uh in the bumpouts, locations where um we don't believe there are any visual obstructions or hazards to pedestrians, right? There's no crosswalk here where this might be safety issue. So, each of these signs has been reduced stale. There is one where we're looking at an Lshaped form as opposed to simply a two-sided sign. size, but they're connected. And that's sort of at the main four four-way intersection at the center with the park to the right and the fifth street extension. Just a quick look at what that L shape looks like. Zoom in. And then another along the park lane just doublesided. And then we didn't have a photo that made sense for this location because it's an active construction site. It was a little rough. So we uh took board members advice and uh drop this into the rendering. So you see the large approved sign at the entrance and the much scaled down way at the intersection. So we have detailed dimensions for each of these in the submission package. They're all more or less the same family and size. So I don't I don't really need to go through them in detail. Um and then we have the locations mapped out. Happy to talk about any of these. Um we would still need a uh return to the BCA. Um if and when the board grants approval for these, we would go back to the Hopefully they would accept these

projects. Okay, thank you. Very um easy to understand presentation. Thank you. Um okay, Andy, thoughts and comments, please.

Yeah, I think it's um ve very straightforward. Um, I think maybe the the only challenge I could see, you know, in your in your photo montage, um, is, you know, some of the signs are on lawn, some are in landscape beds, and just making sure that, you know, in the landscape bed that the, you know, the plantings don't grow such that it's blocking the sign because, because now these are, you know, really small. Um, that would be my only, you know, concern, but otherwise I think it's very straightforward. Great. Thank you, Jenny.

Thanks. Um, so there's one, two, three, four total. Five. Five total. It one over there. Okay. I guess I'm the the three in the middle there. Like are those meaningfully different? Yeah. So they're they're each at an intersection. Um so they're located at decision points, right, where you sort of decide whether to turn right or left. Um and those decisions change as you make your way down the drive. Okay.

Each intersection has a different serves different purposes.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think these look tasteful enough. I found the L-shaped one like very confusing. I don't I just I think if you were driving down the road and you had an L-shaped sign that had arrows going all those different directions, like you'd basically have to stop your car, I think, to look at it to figure out which arrows you're you're going to. But there's probably also folks who look at the behavioral science of sign reading and would say that this is fine.

Paul, he's the the science specialist. Well, I don't know if your audio is working.

Uh oh. Yes, go ahead. Yeah, sorry. Um yeah, we we we did look into this, but that there is a there's a real crossroads at this particular point. Um, and we played around with a couple of ideas and you can't sort of a diagonal single face sign wouldn't work and um, the right angles in one direction wouldn't work. We actually played around with doing a little cube, but uh, we were trying to be as discreet as possible. So, we thought the L shape was the uh, best best solution. Okay, sounds good. That's it for me. Thanks, Jenny. Max,

just one question of clarification. And so what you're presenting to us is uh resized based on feedback you got from the zoning board and then they still haven't accepted it but that's you'll go back with our with whatever opinion we render to them and say and then try to get approved. Correct. That's correct. Okay. Great. I that's correct. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I I didn't have and and this reflects their guidance almost exactly. So, uh, we're hoping that, um, with your board will, uh, see see the merit of their thought process and we've basically just translated what they asked for. Yeah. Great. I think these are effective and I don't have any more comments.

Okay. Um, I also think these are very effective and um, seem appropriate. You know, I assume that if the L-shaped sign, I think it's very clever, actually. And if the L-shaped sign doesn't work and there are car crashes, the owners would amend the sign. So, I think that'll work itself out. Yeah, [laughter] you're near the medical center either way.

No, I I really I think this is a good package um for a very large site. Um hopefully, yeah, it works well. I think it it seems to do the trick. So, Nikki and Lisa, any thoughts on this? No. Um, so I hear a very positive consensus. Um, we do have um a potential approval here. So why don't we I can ask for a motion in a second and then we can discuss. Andy moves. Jenny seconds. Okay. As it's written, any thoughts? Anything to add? We're um preceding the board of zoning. Is there anything that has to be mentioned about that in here or not?

No, I don't think so.

Okay. I'm seeing none. Um, so why don't we go ahead and take a roll call vote um on the resolution for signage design approval. Andy, yes. Any Max? Yes. I am also a yes. You've done it. Done it again. Good luck. Your last time at BCA for a sign. That's true. Good luck with the BCA. Thank you for bringing to us and I think it's it's a great design.

Thank you very much. Okay. So, tonight we will not be seeing 445 East State Street. They are going to wait, as Nikki said, um for the signed ordinance approval to come back to us. Um so, next up is director's report. Lisa, Sure.

I'll send it I'll send it by email to you if you're interested. There's a $75 registration fee and um the city would be very happy to pay for that for you if you're interested in going to it. Um it's all day. It brings together municipal decision makers and developers. Um, so I'll send it around and if you'd like to go, please tell me and we can Did you say where it's located? It's in Bingmpington. Bingington. Okay. Yes. Let's take a look. Thank you for that opportunity. Yes, that's all.

That's it. Okay. Short report. Um, then we have old new business and we're going to talk about draft site plan approval ordinance and the draft signed ordinance.

Okay. and thanks for reviewing them everyone. Um so I think the memo basically plots that out like why we are looking at the site plan review ordinance again and reviewing um a lot of like simpler language and ways to um you know like there are specific titles and so we got rid of those because titles change or specific commissions or boards and got rid of those um well I should say the lawyer did very good at that. Um, and then I think the very the big substantial change is changing the threshold for limited site plan review. That's the staff level review and changing it from that two to the duplex a two family to 14 units. Um, Emily had a great question of why 14. Few reasons. One being that at 15 it bumps it to a type one under seeker and so that would require Yeah. The full thief full thiefs. Um and then also as other cities and towns in the US are um that missing middle is really important and hopefully like this would be some incentive to developers to if they we give them precisely what we need. They can give us an application with everything we need to review and have you know a shorter process if not shorter at least um you know not as expensive to Yeah. So that's the the nutshell but I am here Lisa's here Sam to answer any questions or

Yeah. Do we want to have any discussion now about it or questions now? I think it makes sense. I mean clearly it's adding to your workload but it but to your point Nikki to streamline the process um I think it's a great idea. And to clarify, um, at any point this could be kicked up to the board, right? If any site plan can

So if an applicant doesn't give you exactly what you're asking for, you get kicked up or if there's a question, so it doesn't preclude us from being involved. I think it just, like you said, it takes away a barrier for um maybe faster and less expensive review. It's great. I think we talked when I went to that um training that the county put on, they talked a lot about sort of the missing the missing middle. And I think even visually as you move around Ithaca, you see that that is missing. And you hear it anecdotally from people who don't necessarily want to have a unit in a, you know, 120 unit building, but they would happily have the second floor of like a, you know, sixunit threestory condo style house.

Um, so I think that's great. Great. And we haven't had many at the board, you said, right? No, I looked through and we granted we just now um thankfully Sam will show you at some point the pipeline which is amazing that he created the dashboard for our housing pipeline but um in looking at that data before we had it all consolidated I was counting approximately six six projects in the last five years that were between more than two units and less than 15 and you guys saw two of them recently the state and the highland six state highland So that's not many. I mean, we can look at the data now and it might be a little more refined, but

thank you.

Uh ju just one question and then a comment. Um so the um I read this now I can't remember exactly how it goes, but um if there's a um dispute with the staff or with the director, they can request to kick it up to us. Right. Basically the the general standard for staff level review is that the staff isn't making any discretionary decisions. So um it would be like it meets all of the standards the design guidelines or it doesn't. So if we and we you know we Nikki does this and I did this before go back and forth all the time with applicants applying for limited site plan review on the changes we would need for it to comply. And so it would have the standard would be it would need to comply with all of the standards or it would go if that we couldn't work that out then it would go to the board who is allowed to make discretionary decisions about designs.

Oh that's great. That's that's very helpful. So I I was wrong. I had two questions and then a comment. I know I've been forgetting things lately. I'm old. I forget things. But um the other the other question was uh about the exchange that uh you two had about the u fee structure and then your last comment about well that the city's trying to take that all out of the ordinances and put it in you know on the web so it's up to date and everything uh makes perfect sense to me. Why why won't that happen at this point? Why would this be the opportunity? That's the question we have to the attorneys. We'll we're going to request that.

Yeah, we can ask again. But the reason was because they want to do that like all at once. Yeah. Yeah, we have an opportunity to do one now. So, yeah, it seems that might be, you know, why not watch the common council meeting?

Yeah. Um, so that was the second question. Then the other thing is I think uh back to Jenny's point about the kind of the missing middle and all this and anything uh that the city can do to kind of speed up and streamline approval processes. I mean it's just like really good. And I think the other thing I think that it's really reflects well on the city of Ithaca that it's reviewing these ordinances with these kinds of points in mind because that's just good government. And I think I think that's really so as a citizen I compliment the city on that. Thank you. That's great. Good feedback.

Also is you know following on um what Max is saying is there a way to sort of highlight these projects because you know I walk by sites all the time and think wow this could be you know 15 units or you know this could be a bigger development. Is there a way to, you know, provide something that would, you know, spark a developer to think, huh, you know, maybe I could get interested in the scale,

right? That's really interesting. And I mean, one of the things that we're going to do in the zoning rewrite is try to remove any zoning barriers. There are some. They're not huge, but there are some. Um, and then we're looking into what we want to study this coming year for housing. Um, and that would be one of the things. How would you how do you incentivize this missing piece of housing? So, this is sort of related um and I'm curious. We just had a zoning um change to allow ADUs, right? So, have you seen a flood of ADUs proposed? No. So, to speak to your point, how do you incentivize that? Now, the law is more flexible, but you're not seeing people build it. So, I don't know. Great.

Anyway, and there's some ideas for that as well, too. Yeah. Yes. There's ideas for that. Like what would you like to say what you're doing with that? Or Sam, would you like to say what you're doing to incentivize ADUs? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Um um you know, right now we're looking into bringing in through some pre-approved packages for ADUs, including construction drawings. So, there'll be permit ready construction sets people to take to their um developers, whatever that may be. So, um talks about what she might whether the city buy for free or not or people have to purchase them for a smaller price and they could circumvent some of the process.

Yes. Automatic automatically approved. Yeah. So we got people like city of Eugene has a free one that we can we can have and maybe even make you know a little more to the local but so they make it free to citizens. Yes. Oh wow. Yep. There's one Right. We got a small grant from the county and we had we got a capital project last year, a small amount of money to look into this. So there is funding to either, you know, to hire a consultant to do the designs or Yeah. Great. And then along with that, you know, you could have, you know, a menu of architects that you could hire that do this as well.

That's exactly Yep. That's exactly what I recommend. That's any opportunity for local. Yeah. And have those be some of the pre-approved depending on Y. Okay. Um, do we want to transition into the draft sign ordinance? Oh. Oh, I just want to say um we are bringing this to council in November. So, it would be great if the board had a recommendation to council to to

Oh, we could do that tonight. do a recommendation or if you had any changes you want to make, we wanted to bring it to you first because it impacts obviously your work. But do you want um an endorsement tonight or do you want us to circulate thoughts? Either way, it would be great to um for them to have your opinion on this. Let's do it now. I mean, I'm hearing all kind of consensus. Um

shall I just sum up what we all said? Um so this we agree with the proposed draft ordinance. Um it will remove the barrier to um local developers both a timeline barrier and monetary barrier and hopefully promote that missing middle size of development. Do we want to say anything else? Great. Wow. Thank you. First try. Okay. [laughter] Thank you. Okay. Let's do the same with the draft sign ordinance.

Okay. Um, and I think this was a good example tonight of a lot of the back and forth that applicants have had to do in the past in the way that the ordinances are written, right? Like first they have to come here because it's part of site plan review of um whether you approve it or not and then to them if there's any variance. So for for efficiency, it was thought that it could be called waivers, signed waivers, and that when they come here for approval, however long that takes, um they can also get that waiver here and not have to be sent

um to the BCA. Not we like the BCA, that's not the point, but just to say to save time as well. It also because it does have a lot to do as you guys have noted over and over with design with the context of the neighborhood with um you know some of the some of the things that are in the ordinance like do does it really

uh match with what's out there like a huge building should it only have the 12 square foot sign if it's residential so there's some of those more um some of those questions you can answer better than the BA just because they have to go by that five point criteria that they have to always go by. So, um it would still be um the fact that the zoning administrator would still look at it and tell us how they're out of compliance with the ordinance like there's too many signs, there's, you know, they went over by this much square footage. So you'll still have that right up as well, but you you would make the decision about what is the appropriate amount and size of signage along with

all the aesthetic considerations.

Yep. Um and Emily smartly asked me, [laughter] could we have any training with this then? And I was like, that's the next on the agenda. But we would propose that training that we had talked about hopefully in January of doing a training, you know, about science, like looking at our design guidelines again, looking at the ordinance, um looking at some examples of successful and then some not as successful signs and why um and in which parts of our city that they make sense. I would love that training because I think personally I'm often leaning on the BCA to make a call on size like we give our input it feels too big

but now I would just like to be able to give more direct feedback to them and be easier for them. Easier. Yeah. And it be nice to have something to point to like actually it says here that the size is this. So it takes a little bit of the subjectivity Yes. out of it. I feel like I'm often just providing really subjective feedback when it comes to science and there's probably a better way to do that.

Right. Yeah, that's a that's a good good point. Although probably still will have some of that, but yes. Um and and I think the really a good point to that Jenny too is in section four if you see it's nice. It says and she'll also consider the following. You guys probably all saw that but you know size of sign size of the building kind of explains that other signs. Yeah. So it lays out that criteria really nice too with the design guidelines. I think that could yeah make it a little less maybe subjective. So the whether the um signs are within the guidelines who makes that determination zoning administrator administrator not the guidelines but the ordinance

excuse me that's what I Yes. Exactly. Yeah. administrator board. She or they will um will right they will write up exactly like if there's if there are any variances for a project they write up um you know zoning. Yeah. Yeah. Analysis is acceptable. Yeah. Right. Got it. Yeah. So information. Yeah. How much? Right. So, the information would be like a report to us. Yes. So, she would say, "Max, you have three signs. You're allowed two.

You have, you know, they're supposed to be 50 square feet. This one's 80 square feet. This one's Yeah. They'll tell you exactly how it's not following. Yeah, I get we can we have more cover kind of to say, you know what, there the these guidelines are here for a reason and this exceeds it." And so that's the waiver, but you'll also pair it with your your right before that your approval of that sign package. So yeah. Yeah, kind [snorts] of. No, go ahead. Let's say if we did not grant a waiver on something specific, that's the end of it. It does not get appealed to BCA, right? It's just that's it. Okay.

It makes sense. So there there are regulations about how it makes sense to consider the size in the whole package of everything else. So yes, I would imagine like with any negoti

so it would be a similar process. It could extend over several meetings to come back negotiate. Okay. Yeah, I was just saying, you know, what Sam provided when we were reviewing zoning um ordinances, you know, with variances, I'm sorry. Um that was really helpful because it made it really clear. This is what we're focusing on. This is what, you know, is not meeting the the zoning code. And so, we'll have that. Yes. Yep. As a guide. It was really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in the training we'll touch upon that a little bit too, just to get so you know some of the background of it too. But you'll always have a written out. This is how it's not meeting the guidelines. Yeah,

I think it makes a lot of sense. I It's taking down this barrier again for applicants. I you can feel the frustration more with signs than any other process. I think I think so. Now I have to go to the BCA. Okay. So that's great to streamline the process. Do you want something um a recommendation on this as well? That would be fantastic. All right. I try to do drum roll. Um, okay. So, the same things we support the uh the draft sign ordinance as a board um in order to remove barriers from applicants both the timeline and monetary to streamline the process with one board. Yeah.

Excellent. it more we don't have to write this but it more directly um allows us to more directly get at I think the goals of the sign ordinance itself. Okay, sound good. And I get you recorded so I can you can add that. Um this was great. Thank you.

Okay, so we need to look at November and December meeting dates because they are near holidays. So wondering um oh and I should mention for November we will have a new board member um Peggy Tolley who is um trained as a landscape architect. She worked at the city as the sidewalk coordinator and now works at Cornell and I think is going to be an excellent board member just period but also very um interested in outside of the building and the site area. So like the sidewalk and Yeah. Yeah. So she'll be joining us in November. Great.

There's still one seat beyond that. Okay. We're moving on to that, too. So November, we just wanted to throw out there um the planning board meeting as scheduled is that Tuesday before Thanksgiving, Tuesday the 25th. And we just want to see if there's any appetite or any, you know, desire to move it to an earlier date if people had travel plans like even on that Monday or, you know, some night the week before. But that is all that is up to you all. I'm fine with myself. I'm fine with the 25th. I would be fine with the 24th as well if it's better.

Yeah, I'm the same with me. 24th is fine. 25th is fine. Same. Yeah, I'm okay, too. So, it would be nice to to have everybody if we can have Peggy and Yeah. Um, Elizabeth to have a full board next time. Yeah. So, check in with them. Maybe send an email, check in with them, and then make it a a definitive answer. Yeah. Sounds and then we can trade it on the calendar. And that that training is on the 18th, Lisa. Yes. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. So, we don't want to be you don't want to go into training and then have a planning board. I'm Yeah. I'm I'm actually out of town that day, so I can't do it either, unfortunately.

Yeah. No, we'll keep it the 24th or 25th. It sounds like that's Yeah. Okay. Good. Right. Thank you. And then December, moving on. That's December 23rd. Yes. We we often every year that I've been here anyway, we make it the Tuesday before we make it the third Tuesday. Oh, 16th. Yes. So, I just want to see if that was all right. Fine by me. Works. I think I can do that.

Very minimal. Thank you. Okay, we will make that change on the calendar on the website and send that out to you all. Great. Thank you. Okay. Um, do we want to talk about retreat dates now that we have our calendars out? That we have our calendars. Um, we're thinking January 2026, but that is to you all as well. Yeah. So, it would be a different Tuesday or it could be any day. Any day. Yeah. Right.

What hour are we thinking? Even evening still like after work. Okay. Are you Did you suggest a specific case yet? I haven't I have not suggested um I I would think though sometime in the end of January for that week. Yeah. 19th. So that that part of that week I'm gone. Okay. But the latter part of the week I'm same. Um I can do the second half of the week of the night. Yeah. The 19th is MLK.

Oh y. So maybe 21 22. I mean I could do 20 21 22 or 23. Is 21 on or is it 22 on? Uh uh 21 uh I could do but it will be difficult for me to No, we don't want you to move on. 22 is that's comfortable. That's is it Thursday? Yeah. Thursday. Yeah, that would be 122. Maybe we could get a second date and then flat it to the two others. Yeah. The last week is a We do have the 27th, right?

Yeah. Or the first week of February. Either the latter parts of or any any time that week of the second works for me. And then the latter part of the week before is fine, too. Yeah. I have nothing, guys. I'm not a busy person. [laughter] It's just too far in advance. Yeah, you are busy. How is that first week of February like on the um February 3rd, which is a Tuesday? Does that work for We don't want to do Groundhog Day ourselves. Um I could not do the third. Okay. But I could do Sorry. No, we do the fourth or the fifth or the fifth?

Fifth. So, what about the fifth for people? Those are the Thursdays. Yeah. Okay. So 122 or 25. Yeah. That sound right. And these will not be as long as planning board meetings in in days past. We'll make them succinct. Two hours. Yep. Yeah. I'm happy to host again if that's appropriate. Okay. Appropriate. Very nice. It was fun.

Yeah. Okay. So, I will send that out. I'll include all of you too. Um, and I know your answers, but you know, so that for January 22nd or February 5th. Thank you. Okay, I think that does it. Um, final thoughts, anybody? Okay, can I have a motion to adjurnn? Andy moves and Jenny seconds. Thank you everyone. We are adjourned tonight. Thank you.